What’s The Real Truth About Religion? - Alex O’Connor

1. 0:00 – 7:53

   Are We Seeing a Christian Revival?

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      Three, two, one.

   2. AOAlex O’Connor0:03

      What? (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson0:03

      What are you laughing about?

   4. AOAlex O’Connor0:04

      It's really funny the way he's like, "You're the only person that does it like..."

   5. CWChris Williamson0:06

      Turning the game face on?

   6. AOAlex O’Connor0:07

      It's, it's not like someone else doing, it's not someone else going, "Three, two, one, right, right." It's like you just, you're sort of like, "Right." You said like deep into the soul, "Three, two, one."

   7. CWChris Williamson0:16

      Well, you don't have a soul.

   8. AOAlex O’Connor0:17

      Alex O'Connor.

   9. CWChris Williamson0:17

      So it's easy for me to do it.

   10. AOAlex O’Connor0:20

       Yeah, so I'm told anyway.

   11. CWChris Williamson0:22

       Alex O'Connor, welcome to the show.

   12. AOAlex O’Connor0:23

       Chris Will-X, how are you?

   13. CWChris Williamson0:25

       (laughs) I'm good, man. I'm good. Are we seeing a Christian revival at the moment? What's going on?

   14. AOAlex O’Connor0:30

       Gosh, I love this. I, this is something I've adopted too, the sort of just straight in with the question, you know, none of this, none of this gallivanting around.

   15. CWChris Williamson0:38

       Farmer.

   16. AOAlex O’Connor0:38

       How are you? How's your day been? Tell us about yourself.

   17. CWChris Williamson0:41

       You've been in Austin for a week, I don't need to know how you are.

   18. AOAlex O’Connor0:43

       Yeah, I mean, the- these- these fair people don't know how I am, but they also don't care. So you've struck a sort of perfect balance there.

   19. CWChris Williamson0:48

       Ah.

   20. AOAlex O’Connor0:50

       Um, I- I'm writing an article about this at the moment, which should be out by the time this episode is out, who knows? Not, not I, not this reviewer. But, um, I'm opening with this quote from the Gospel of Thomas, the Apocryphal Gospel of Thomas, one of those ancient gospels that didn't make it into the New Testament, and yet is filled with these wonderful and bizarre stories about Jesus. And at one point in this Apocryphal Gospel, he condemns some of his followers. He says, "You've become like the Jews who either love the tree and hate the fruit, or love the fruit and hate the tree." Some similar imagery in the canonical gospels of like, "By their fruits, you shall know them," you know? A good fruit doesn't produce bad... Uh, a good tree doesn't produce bad fruits. But interestingly here, you know, people get this criticism all the time, like, you claim to be a Christian, um, but you don't really act in accordance with it. You're like nominally a Christian, but, you know, you're not displaying the sort of radical compassion of Jesus or something like that. It's a very common criti- criticism that you're not acting in, in accordance with your beliefs. But we've- we've been seeing this strange reverse phenomenon emerging, where you've got people who like the fruits but don't even believe in the existence of the tree. So, usually the criticism is like, "Look, you love the tree, but you- you- you're not producing the right fruits." But in this case, you've got a- a- a- an emerging class of thinkers who are unwilling to say that they believe in the actual truth of Christianity, and yet are at least Christian adjacent or sympathetic to Christianity, or kind of a bit depressed about the fact that everyone isn't Christian anymore. This is your Douglas Murrays, Constantin Kissens, um, Jordan Peterson to a- to some degree, To-

   21. CWChris Williamson2:30

       Andrew Huberman?

   22. AOAlex O’Connor2:31

       Um, I suppose, but then he does say he actually believes in God, right?

   23. CWChris Williamson2:34

       Okay.

   24. AOAlex O’Connor2:35

       'Cause these are people who-

   25. CWChris Williamson2:35

       Oh, so maybe he likes the tree, but the fruit is... yeah.

   26. AOAlex O’Connor2:38

       Yeah, I mean, I don't know if he... I mean, I don't listen to much Huberman, but maybe his fruit is- is- is- is- is fine, is very Christian, I- I don't really know. Um, but- but in- in the case of these thinkers, the reason they're interesting is because people talk about them all the time in this Christian revival phenomenon. I've got a friend, Justin Brierley, who just wrote a book called The Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God: Why New Atheism Grew Old and Secular Thinkers are Considering Christianity Again, or something like that. And it's very hopeful, um, but I think a bit too optimistic, because the case studies it points to are the people that I've just mentioned, people like this. Um, Tom Holland, the historian who, um... Well, as- as I've- as I've written this article, Tom Holland, not the actor, but in a sense an actor, 'cause he sort of likes to pretend that Christianity is true, even though it's not. The interesting thing about these guys is that they won't say that it's true. They're unwilling to say that it's true, and they call themselves cultural Christians. Richard Dawkins, you know, arch archetypal atheist, also, I mean, recently called himself a cultural Christian. He's been doing it for years, but he got a lot of attention recently when he did it on- on- on LBC. And it's kind of interesting, you know? So- so you're gonna spend your entire career just lambasting this religious tradition and undercutting the truth value of it, and then getting depressed when the cathedrals are empty and being turned into mosques, which is what's happening in England. Like, you may have sort of shot yourself in the- in the foot a little bit there, but it's, there's nothing inconsistent, strictly speaking, with saying that you like going to Evensong but you don't think any of it's true.

   27. CWChris Williamson4:06

       Mm-hmm.

   28. AOAlex O’Connor4:07

       So, what we're seeing is an emergence of people who are more sympathetic to the Christian ideal, or what they perceive as the Christian ideal, um, which is a whole nother can of worms, but without actually believing in the truth of it. I mean, most believing Christians will say, "If you do not believe historically that a man called Jesus died on a cross and rose from the dead, then your faith is futile and you're still in your sins," as Saint Paul put it to the Corinthians, um, famously. So, these people sort of can't be counted among a Christian revival, but I think Christians have a lot to celebrate that at least now the culture is shifting from a sort of new atheism, "Christianity is evil and terrible and wrong," to, "Yeah, might be wrong, we'll sort of brush that bit under the- under the carpet, but try to display the- the virtuous ethics of Christianity." Although, in my case, they're not actually advocating for a Christian ethic, they're advocating for a sort of right-wing traditional conservatism, which is not the same thing.

   29. CWChris Williamson5:00

       Just to tie a bow on your previous analogy, when you talk about tree-

   30. AOAlex O’Connor5:06

       Mm-hmm.
2. 7:53 – 18:46

   What’s Causing the Rise of Cultural Christianity?

   1. CWChris Williamson7:53

      is this happening? What has occurred recently that's caused Christianity, cultural Christianity, this sort of revival of it, utilitarian Christianity, if you wanna call it that-

   2. AOAlex O’Connor8:04

      Mm-hmm, yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson8:05

      ... which I quite like as a term?

   4. AOAlex O’Connor8:07

      Yeah, there are, there are a few things, um, for this, you know, functional, utilitarian, practical Christianity that isn't a, an affirmative set of truth claims, but rather a sort of protective cloak to be worn.

   5. CWChris Williamson8:19

      It's more like Stoicism.

   6. AOAlex O’Connor8:20

      It's a cultural thing, yeah. The, the cultural Christian. I mean, think of Richard Dawkins. Loves going to Evensong, likes a cathedral, thinks that God doesn't exist and that the Christian stories are ludicrous fantasies. This is your cultural Christian. Why are they beginning to re-emerge in droves? For a few reasons. First, new atheism either creates or describes this vacuum of, of, you know, spiritual ungroundedness. Um, you don't need any of this religion stuff. I know that it's obviously evolved in the human psyche for some reason. And every single human society we find, doesn't matter where we look, they all have some kind of sense of the numinous, some kind of distinction between the sacred-

   7. CWChris Williamson9:00

      What's numinous?

   8. AOAlex O’Connor9:01

      ... and profane. Numinous, the sort of, uh, you could say the transcendent, the, som- some- something that sort of sits above and beyond, a little bit sort of mystical, a little bit sort of out there. You know when you ask somebody if they're religious and they say, "No, I'm not religious, but I'm spiritual," and you're like, "What the hell does that mean?" And they're like, "I just sort of believe in, I believe in like something." It's like, "Well, I believe in s- I believe in this microphone, you know, I believe it exists." So what do you mean? But they're sort of getting at this, this sort of ethereal other, this something, right? And every society, wherever we look, you know, societies develop this feeling. And that there's clearly something intrinsic to human nature that drives us towards this religious impulse. But the new atheists come along, as the old atheists did before them, uh, but the new atheists did it more, more fervently in saying, "No, not only is this untrue, not only in the sort of, you know, where Sigmund Freud says that your belief in God is, I don't know, the result of some kind of childhood repression, trauma, whatever," um, okay, like, but he's still gonna think that it's an intrinsic part of the human psyche. Right? The new atheists come along and say, "Well, I also think it's false, but you also don't need it. You know, you don't need this celestial dictator telling you what to do. Oh, you only do right and wrong because you're scared of upsetting the, the big man in the sky? Well, that's a terrible source for ethics." And, and everyone goes, "Yeah, you know what? Damn right, yeah."

   9. CWChris Williamson10:13

      Mm-hmm.

   10. AOAlex O’Connor10:14

       "Yeah, I beli-" And it's sort of like a rallying cry, like it was really... There are, some of these speeches, especially in the case of Christopher Hitchens, you know, they, they sort of make you wanna stand up and give a, give a round of applause. I mean, i- i- it's just amazing, right? And part of it is appealing to this, this human, um, this sort of like humanity, this common humanity. "Oh, like, are you not good enough yourself to, to sort of stand up and, and live a good life," and all of this kind of stuff, and everyone's like, "Yeah. Yeah, absolutely." But we've seen the fruits of this as people begin to sort of throw off religion and, and societies begin to throw off religion. What people have perceived happening is the creation of a spiritual vacuum, and if it is the case that human beings are naturally religious, they have a, an impulse towards... The, the most fundamental thing I think we have an impulse toward is the idea of the sacred. The idea of something which is separate and untouchable, that, that shouldn't be mixed with the profane. That shouldn't be, um, that, that usually has a sort of, a- attached to it a s- a set of dogma, uh, about rules, what you're allowed to do with it, what you're not, and, and those rules aren't entirely justified by reason alone. It's sort of considered to be self-evident, just this, this separate thing that we treat as, as totally sacred. So that's, that's your god, right? And the idea is that if you remove the god, something else has to fulfill that, uh, that place, something has to fill it in. And so, the, the right wing conservatives will say that environmentalism, veganism, um, gender ideology, all of this kind of stuff, has become a new religion, and although it's maybe a bit of a lazy phrasing, you know what they mean. You know exactly the kind of thing that they're talking about, right? And, um, the left will criticize, you know, nationalism as filling that role. Um, you know, populism and populist leaders, people get religious about Donald Trump, which they do, it's, it's amazing, um, to, to sort of see the, the power and influence that, that that man has. It's, it's almost spiritual, you know? Um, so to cut a long story short, or to-... append a long story with a conclusion, I should say. Um, I think what's happening is a bunch of right-wing thinkers are seeing what is fulfilling the vacuum that new atheism created, wokeism, Islamism, um, a few other things, which I- it's- it's- there's someone in particular that I should mention, but- and they're saying, "I- I don't like this." And they're realizing that the kind of secular humanism that's promised by the new atheists just kind of isn't cutting the mustard seed, as I like to say. It's, um, it's not doing it, you know? So, I recently was in New York, and I watched Richard Dawkins and Ayaan Hirsi Ali have a discussion. Ayaan Hirsi Ali was supposed to be at the meeting in Washington, D.C. in 2007 that created the Four Horsemen of New Atheism, Hitchens, Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, and Sam Harris, and it becomes this huge cultural moment, the Four Horsemen. They still talk about

   11. CWChris Williamson13:12

       Mm-hmm.

   12. AOAlex O’Connor13:12

       ... today as a group. She was supposed to be there. She was a- a- a incredibly successful new atheist, writer, speaker, debater, and earlier this year, or last year, she announces in an unheard article that she's a Christian now. Like, wow. Uh, like, incredible. Just- just, like, absolute, like, headline news in this- in this niche.

   13. CWChris Williamson13:33

       U-turn.

   14. AOAlex O’Connor13:33

       Yeah, it- well, this is the th- this is the thing. It's sort of like, how predictable was it? Well, you know, she'd been hanging out with the Jordan Petersons and stuff, and she's sort of quite, I think, she got her footing in the sort of right-wing cultural space. And so it's kind of not surprising if you knew that this kind of Christian revival thing was- was happening anyway. Um, but her entire article for Unheard, I mean, it mentioned, like, Vladimir Putin, and it talked about wokeism and China, and it talked about Islamism, and it s- it mentioned Richard Dawkins more than it mentioned Jesus. 'Cause the story, Why I'm Now a Christian, I think the article was called, and it- it had nothing theological. No spiritual experience, no- no philosophical argument, just, you know, "I'm not happy with the way that- that our culture's going." You know, "I'm suspicious of the- the rise of wokeism and Islamism in China and Russia, and Christianity is sort of our best defense against that." So, a lot of people criticized it and said, "Well, what do you mean you're a Christian?" And Richard Dawkins' response to her was, in his article, was to say, "Seriously, Ayaan, a Christian? You're no more Christian than I am." Which is really interesting, because a lot of people look at Richard Dawkins and say, "He's basically a Christian," and a lot of people look at Ayaan and said she's basically an atheist. So, they're both sort of making the same criticism in- in the opposite direction. So, they got together in New York, and I was there, and I watched it, and to everyone's surprise, I think, Ayaan did actually affirm belief in the truth claims of Christianity.

   15. CWChris Williamson15:03

       So, she's not just fruit, she's tree as well.

   16. AOAlex O’Connor15:05

       It seems that that's now the case, but the interesting thing is, when Dawkins ... 'cause Dawkins was ready to show up to this discussion and say, and tell her why she's not really a Christian. Like, he- I- I-

   17. CWChris Williamson15:13

       Because she- because of the tree, the life of the tree.

   18. AOAlex O’Connor15:15

       Yeah. You know, "I know you like the- the- the stories and all this kind of stuff, but, like, you're not really a Christian." And it was- it was actually at the beginning, Ayaan told her story of conversion where she really opened up about depression, suicidality, just utter despair, being not strong enough to commit suicide, but not wanting to stay alive anymore. And then she tries praying. You know, some- some therapist after the hundreds that she'd seen tells her that she's got, like, a spiritual poverty, and she should try praying, and it works, right? And eventually, she gets sort of lifted out, and she's got this, her l- her sort of, her- the thrill of life is back, you know? And everyone's applauding, 'cause they're so happy for her.

   19. CWChris Williamson15:49

       Mm-hmm.

   20. AOAlex O’Connor15:49

       They- they- they cheered at that, you know? And it was almost comic the way that Dawkins listens to the story and goes, "Well, that's very moving, Ayaan, but- but do you think that Jesus was born of a virgin?"

   21. CWChris Williamson15:59

       Mm-hmm.

   22. AOAlex O’Connor15:59

       You know? But interestingly, Ayaan basically said, uh, if I'm not mistaking her, she said that she chooses to believe these things. She chooses to believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, that he rose from the dead. Which seems kind of weird and a bit obscene. How can you just choose to believe something? And a lot of people will say, "Well, I can't. I can't choose to believe something." You can't choose to believe that Australia doesn't exist. It doesn't work like that. But interestingly, I began to notice that if somebody becomes convinced that Christianity is true, like, through philosophical argumentation, historical argument for the resurrection of Jesus, "Okay, Christianity must be true," and then you hear all these moral claims that it makes about family values, gender roles stuff, and you think, "Well, I don't know about all of that, but I'm s- I mean, I've just become so convinced that Christianity is true that, like, it must just be that this is the moral way, and I- I- I choose to just believe that," right? No one really bats an eyelid. They might think it's- it's wrong to do that, but they don't think it's, like, illogical. They don't think it's, like, a- an- a sort of- an illegal chess move, as Peterson Reversing the stack and going in the other direction is something where people go, "Hang on a second." Exactly, yeah. So- so, Ayaan, obviously just, like, deeply resonates with the Christian story, the Christian ethic, the Christian community. She said that when she was going around criticizing and mocking religion for years and years and years, um, Islamists would send her death threats. Christians would send her letters saying that they're praying for her, you know? And- and she thought that was the difference between those- those two religions. Um, so it was a really interesting story from her. So, that something's obviously deeply resonated, so she says, "Well, whatever that is, that's- that's realer than real. That's the most important thing in my life." And so yeah, I choose to believe the factual stuff as well. And that seems like a much more, like, intuitively, it seems more illegitimate to go that way.

   23. CWChris Williamson17:37

       Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

   24. AOAlex O’Connor17:37

       But, you know, I think people do it in the other direction all the time.

   25. CWChris Williamson17:39

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3. 18:46 – 23:48

   Is it Possible to Choose to Believe in God?

   1. CWChris Williamson18:46

      to choose to believe in God?

   2. AOAlex O’Connor18:50

      Not, like, naively. Not like... Well, try it. Try it for yourself. You don't believe in God, or do you? Maybe you're an agnostic, I don't know what you, what you, what you think about this stuff, Chris. You're probably sort of, what, agnostic atheist or...

   3. CWChris Williamson19:02

      Yeah, agnostic.

   4. AOAlex O’Connor19:03

      So just try it out. Like, believe in God for, for a second. Give it a go.

   5. CWChris Williamson19:08

      I don't know what that would mean.

   6. AOAlex O’Connor19:09

      Right, exactly. It's sort of like, what, like... How do you even begin to... Like, no, you can't do that, but what you can do is... It's complicated by the fact that I don't believe in free will, but, you know, shelving that for a moment (laughs) . Like, okay, so, like, assuming that there is some, like, libertarian free will and you can, like, have authorship over your actions and choose when to raise your hand and stuff, um, you can choose to do things which will, which will knowingly affect your beliefs. And it seems a bit disingenuous, and maybe it is, but like, if you only read Christian literature, only spoke to Christian guests, and did so without going into the conversation with an attitude of, "I'm gonna sort of criticize and object, but, like, I'm just gonna listen and learn." If you did that for, like, three years and only hung out with Christians and went to church every day, Christian worship music, you'd probably become a Christian.

   7. CWChris Williamson19:52

      Hmm.

   8. AOAlex O’Connor19:52

      Like, it, it probably would happen if-

   9. CWChris Williamson19:54

      You did it with vegans.

   10. AOAlex O’Connor19:55

       Yeah, I mean... Well, but it... Like, that's actually another good example, is that if you... If everyone you know is a vegan, everyone you know is a vegan, and you only listen to, like, vegan speakers, and they're always talking about how immoral everybody else is, and all this kind of stuff, like, you're gonna become a vegan, chances are, you know? So you can choose to surround yourself in a community and with certain literature that will at least sort of open you up more.

   11. CWChris Williamson20:16

       I suppose-

   12. AOAlex O’Connor20:17

       So you could choose to do that.

   13. CWChris Williamson20:18

       ... interestingly, as a, an atheist, like Ayaan was-

   14. AOAlex O’Connor20:21

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson20:21

       ... or Dawkins-

   16. AOAlex O’Connor20:22

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson20:22

       ... uh, even though you are there in opposition, you are actually surrounding yourself a lot of the time with people who talk about religion, who think about religion, who think about the transcendent in God, and ideology, and dogma, and stuff like that.

   18. AOAlex O’Connor20:34

       That's right. And so, a lot of people criticize me for being soft on Christianity. Um, I, I accept the charge. I am, um, because I quite like Christianity. You know, I'd call myself one of these cultural Christians if I could make a bit more sense of the concept. Like, I, I get what they're driving at. They're like... Look, I, I like the, the message of Christianity. I like its, its ethos, I like its ethic, I like this figure of Jesus, and I can see societal benefit for people believing in, in God, in religion, and having a unifying moral, and all this kind of stuff. Like, yeah, sure, that's, that's great. And maybe that is a result of me spending too much time with Christians. It's possible, you know?

   19. CWChris Williamson21:08

       Yeah, yeah. You lived with some for a while?

   20. AOAlex O’Connor21:09

       That's right, yeah. Yeah, I lived with, with Christians, and a lot of my, my closest, smartest friends that I talked about philosophy and, and definitely theology with they're, they're Christians. Um, and it's, it's great. It's, it's incredibly edifying. I have a, have a wonderful time. But it, it's... You know, I tr- I try to spend time with, with different people from different backgrounds with different ideas all the time. Um, but, but yeah, I mean, you can, you can choose to sort of adopt your surroundings. And the thing is, that is disingenuous in the sense that you're, you're essentially just aesthetically deciding which worldview you wanna, like, put on.

   21. CWChris Williamson21:46

       Mm-hmm.

   22. AOAlex O’Connor21:47

       Um, sort of irrelevant is the, the truth claims that it makes.

   23. CWChris Williamson21:51

       Mm.

   24. AOAlex O’Connor21:52

       But I totally understand it, especially if you're someone like Ayaan. If you're someone who... I mean, imagine what it's like to be actually suicidal for months, for years. To, to, to literally have hit rock bottom and have nowhere else to go, and suddenly, you discover this thing. You discover this thing which, after years and years of struggle, with the, with the, with the deepest and darkest struggle that a person can go through, you get this sort of hand that you can grab hold of, and it just lifts you out of this, brings you back to life, you know? And then, just as you're sort of there and thinking, "Oh my goodness, this is... I've been waiting for..." You know, tears streaming down your face, you got Richard Dawkins going like, "Yes, but do you actually believe in the virgin birth?"

   25. CWChris Williamson22:32

       Why do you keep bringing that bit up?

   26. AOAlex O’Connor22:34

       Because it shows a difference in what people care about. The cultural Christians care about the, the, the ethic, and the society, and what it does for people. It's sort of a sociological project. Whereas for, um, I would say, theological Christians, but also, like, atheist critics, it's more about the truth claims of a religious worldview. So, a lot of people, you know, if you look at the comments on this discussion that they had, a lot of people will be like, "Oh, so Ayaan's just done a Jordan Peterson, basically." She's just sort of, sort of done this wishy-washy, "Well, the truth kinda doesn't really matter." By the way, this approach of like, "Ah, it doesn't really matter," you know, "Did Jesus rise from the dead? Ah, y- you know, I don't really know. What I really care about is just, like, how it feels, man."

   27. CWChris Williamson23:12

       Mm-hmm.

   28. AOAlex O’Connor23:13

       That's the kind of, like, attitude that would get you condemned as a heretic in the early Church, you know. Like, "Oh, you don't affirm the belief in the resurrection of Jesus?" You know, it, it would be bad. So, the reason I bring it up is because they're two different approaches.

   29. CWChris Williamson23:26

       Mm.

   30. AOAlex O’Connor23:27

       One is... One is very left-brained, one is very right-brained. You know, honestly, like, like, the... It's sort of, "What about the, the, the facts, the science?" You know. And the other side is sort of, "What about the narrative, and the sort of feeling, and the-
4. 23:48 – 38:49

   Has Christianity Gone Too Soft?

   1. CWChris Williamson23:48

      Christianity gone soft?

   2. AOAlex O’Connor23:50

      Hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson23:50

      We've spoken about how sort of the atheist side coming in is assessing religion, specifically Christianity, with perhaps, uh, less of a fine-tooth comb.

   4. AOAlex O’Connor24:00

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson24:01

      In order for Christians to say, "With open arms, we permit you, person who does not have an active belief in God-

   6. AOAlex O’Connor24:10

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson24:11

      ... in the resurrection of Jesus, in many of the things that are important-

   8. AOAlex O’Connor24:15

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson24:16

      ... to faith." And you just said that would have been heretical. Is this, uh, both sides nerfing the, uh, bar that they need to get over, one in order to believe, and the other in t- in order to accept?

   10. AOAlex O’Connor24:28

       Maybe. Um, there's also the difference between, like, the Christian religion as practiced in the history of the Christian Church, uh, with a particular emphasis on, like, modern Christian Europe and how it behaved. Um, there's that kind of Christianity, and there's a kind of Christianity which is like-... emulating the figure of Jesus, which is, I think, the important thing. So, for example, um, has Christianity gone soft? Well, consider the Christianity of the Crusades versus the Christianity, the sort of lukewarm, half the people don't even believe, like less than, like 1% of the- the- the population that go into Church of England churches, you know. Like, yeah, that's definitely gone soft, but arguably the kind of either military or strong-armed Christianity that emerges in the history of the Christian Church is itself an inappropriate hardening of the Christian message.

   11. CWChris Williamson25:20

       Mm-hmm.

   12. AOAlex O’Connor25:21

       Like, the figure of Jesus is-

   13. CWChris Williamson25:22

       It's like Christian relativity.

   14. AOAlex O’Connor25:23

       Yeah, yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson25:24

       Like, what- what is base-

   16. AOAlex O’Connor25:25

       Yeah, exactly.

   17. CWChris Williamson25:26

       ... for Christianity?

   18. AOAlex O’Connor25:26

       Yeah. A- and religion is always famously just used to, um, buttress political aims and, and campaigns.

   19. CWChris Williamson25:34

       Functionally, how can we, uh, have this ideology, this dogma to be able to drive us forward, perhaps if we wanted to invade some other countries?

   20. AOAlex O’Connor25:41

       Yeah. O- or, like, how can we motivate people to believe that we're on the right side here? I mean, famously, Adolf Hitler, uh, that people debate all of the time whether he was a Christian. Who knows? I mean, he was a Roman Catholic, but he, and he never renounced it, but, like, you know, he wasn't acting very Christian, let's say.

   21. CWChris Williamson25:58

       (laughs)

   22. AOAlex O’Connor25:58

       But he did have ... The belt buckle of every Nazi soldier have, "Gott mit uns," so, "God with us," written on the, written on the belt buckles.

   23. CWChris Williamson26:05

       Mm-hmm.

   24. AOAlex O’Connor26:06

       Um, atheists weren't allowed to join the SS. Didn't want them, um, didn't think they could be trusted, I suppose. Um, Hitler says explicitly in Mein Kampf that, "In standing guard against the Jew, I'm doing the handiwork of the Lord." Right? So, he's using this religious terminology. And a lot of people like to point out to me, like, the- the, I'll hear Christians say, "Yeah, but he was actually an atheist. I mean, he was just pretending to be a Christian, surely." And I'm like, "Well, why would pretending to be a Christian make it easier for him to be a fascist?" You know what I mean? It- it's- it's sort of a bit of a confusing thing. Um, but yeah, because pe- people use religion in th- in this way. And so, there's- there's the question of, like, well, you know, was Adolf Hitler a Christian, right? Well, maybe he w- maybe if you ask him. May- let's say, you know, we discovered some- some text or some bit of the table talk that- that we didn't otherwise know about, and- and Christ- and- and he says, "Yes, I- I still very much believe in God and believe in doing Christ's work." There's a sense in which you could say, "Ah, see, he was a Christian." That's what the atheist might say. But the Christian would say, "I don't care what he claimed to be. Being a Christian is doing the work of the Lord. Being a Christian is- is- is enacting the will of the Father," right?

   25. CWChris Williamson27:11

       Mm-hmm.

   26. AOAlex O’Connor27:11

       So, interestingly, maybe-

   27. CWChris Williamson27:12

       Tree without fruit.

   28. AOAlex O’Connor27:12

       ... maybe you don't even need to believe in God per se to be a Christian. You just sort of need to do the will of the Father. It's hard to know what- what counts as being a Christian. Um, but I think sort of the two approaches that clash in this Iain Dawkins, you know-

   29. CWChris Williamson27:27

       Mm-hmm.

   30. AOAlex O’Connor27:28

       ... um, rumble is the difference between the approach that says, "The thing that matters is that you live the right kind of life and have the right kind of ethics," and the other side which is, "The thing that matters is that you get the right theology, that you have the right truth claims." Um, to me, that seems a lot less human. It seems a lot less, um, in- in accord with the way that Jesus spoke and behaved and acted. I mean, he's not going around, like, settling theological disputes, really.
5. 38:49 – 43:49

   Experience of Visiting the Vatican

   1. CWChris Williamson38:49

      about when you walk into... Y- y- you've been to the Vatican.

   2. AOAlex O’Connor38:52

      Oh, yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson38:53

      Right? What about when you walk in that? You walk through the doors.

   4. AOAlex O’Connor38:55

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson38:56

      It's the best front end of a funnel I've ever been into.

   6. AOAlex O’Connor38:58

      It, well, look, the Vatican is a, is a ... Look, if you, if you go to St. Peter's Basilica, where you've been, um, I mean it is just, like, breathtakingly huge. Um, the, the, the sort of, the scale of the thing is, is enough to sort of make you ... Like, and, and it's actually so big that you kind of, your eyes aren't like, you know, parallaxing properly, so it's, it's kind of difficult to even tell how big it is.

   7. CWChris Williamson39:19

      Mm-hmm.

   8. AOAlex O’Connor39:20

      Um, until, for anyone who's ever been, there's this writing, big gold band that goes all the way around-

   9. CWChris Williamson39:26

      Mm-hmm.

   10. AOAlex O’Connor39:26

       ... and there's writing.

   11. CWChris Williamson39:26

       Mm.

   12. AOAlex O’Connor39:27

       And I was there with a priest, and I haven't verified this, but he told me that th- well, each of those letters was two meters tall.

   13. CWChris Williamson39:32

       Yep. I heard that on the tour

   14. NANarrator39:32

       That was amazing.

   15. AOAlex O’Connor39:33

       The letters. And I, I genuinely, I was like, "I don't, I don't believe you." I literally, I'm looking at it right now, I'm staring at it with every angle, I d-

   16. CWChris Williamson39:39

       It's so small, it can't be two meters.

   17. AOAlex O’Connor39:40

       ... I don't believe you. I just don't. And the, the, the statues on the top level are built bigger than the ones on the bottom so that they look the same size. It's this strange illusion. I kind of wish they hadn't done that, 'cause it would give you a better idea of the size. But anyway, okay, yeah, a- amazing, awe-inspiring. But, at the same time, it's designed pretty poorly, um, from the outside. I mean, you've got Michelangelo's Dome, which is like at the back of the basilica, which you can't see from the front, which is just poor design, uh, because of the fact that you've got like three different architects who all had different ideas of what to do and were planning things separately, and they all just sort of got shoved together, and so you get this, this great big frontier. But imagine if you could see that dome from the front, it would be spellbinding. Um, also the fact that, uh, St. Peter's was built, um, off the back of sale of indulgences. So, the Catholic Church say, "Give us money, and we'll shorten the time that you spend in purgatory and you get to heaven quicker," and they used that money to fund the building of a church. So, it's a little difficult to be, you know, theologically inspired when you start to realize what kind of building you're walking into and the kind of history that, that surrounds it. Uh-

   18. CWChris Williamson40:49

       God Now.

   19. AOAlex O’Connor40:50

       Yeah. I mean, s- but, but then there is still s- ... Uh, but then it, it's exactly the same thing as the, the God Now thing, as the megachurch, where there's s- ... I mean, like, if you start thinking about it, you think, "Well, this isn't right, this is bad." You know, you might go into a megachurch and say, "Well, this is terrible 'cause they're just trying to make money," and then, you know, you go into St. Peter's Basilica and you think, "Well, this was raised on the sale of indulgences." But there's still something amazing about it, there's still something that, that-

   20. CWChris Williamson41:13

       Mm.

   21. AOAlex O’Connor41:13

       ... inspires awe, and that's the, that's the important bit, um, I think. So, so, so yeah, so I mean, that's a, I mean, it's amazing, an amazing place to be. Um, but like e- every human attempt to approximate the awe of God will, will necessarily be, be beholden to our failures as immoral creatures. (laughs)

   22. CWChris Williamson41:34

       Talk to me about the political dimension of this Christian revival.

   23. AOAlex O’Connor41:38

       Yeah, it's just a bunch of right-wingers getting upset about Islam and wokeism, basically, in my view. Um, I mean, Douglas Murray, you know, goes to church on Christmas and sort of likes to be ... I mean, Justin Brearly talks about Douglas Murray as one of his examples of people who's sort of very like Christian friendly, you know, like sort of cultural Christian type. I don't know how true that is, I, I, I haven't sort of kept up with Douglas', like, writing on this stuff. But say it were true, it's like, why is that? Is it because Douglas has sat in a church, prayed deeply, you know, for an inward sign of like the, the sort of true religion of the universe, or, or is he just upset with the way his country's going? I think it's more likely the latter. Um, Constantine Kisson recently called himself a cultural Christian, um, in, in like a video, and it was the same kind of thing, like it's not a theological thing, you know? He'll say, "I'm an atheist but I'm a cultural Christian."

   24. CWChris Williamson42:33

       Russell Brand got baptized.

   25. AOAlex O’Connor42:34

       Russell Brand got baptized, but again, this is, this is slightly different because he says he actually believes it, right? Or actually, I don't know, I mean, I haven't, I, again, I haven't kept up with Russell Brand, I don't, I don't listen to him. But I, I, presumably he'll actually believe in the resurrection of Jesus and stuff to have been actually baptized. Um, so I think that where somebody has actually sort of developed-... a, a Christianity and a truth claim, "I believe Jesus rose from the dead," I don't think that's just like a Is that not Christian revival? Yeah, I mean, sure that would be an actual Christian revival. But I don't think that the w- the thing that people are pointing to and saying, "But look at this upswing," I don't think that's happening as much.

   26. CWChris Williamson43:09

       Hmm.

   27. AOAlex O’Connor43:09

       I, I don't know. I don't know what the stats are on like baptisms and stuff, but-

   28. CWChris Williamson43:11

       Well, it wouldn't surprise me. You know, if there's a non-zero number of people-

   29. AOAlex O’Connor43:14

       Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

   30. CWChris Williamson43:15

       ... who start to look at the fruits-
6. 43:49 – 57:59

   Is the Rise in Religion Just a Conservative Movement?

   1. CWChris Williamson43:49

      there's two, there's... I wasn't sure what your position on this was, whether you think that it's a upswing in utilitarian, functional Christianity-

   2. AOAlex O’Connor44:02

      Hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson44:02

      ... as opposition to certain movements that a number of people have got a problem with, or just conservatism, uh, uh, wrapped in, uh, uh, religious, uh-

   4. AOAlex O’Connor44:17

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson44:17

      ... talking. So is it, does it exist as a revival of conservatism with a new bow put on it, or in opposition to pushback against, uh, other things that people are concerned about? That was where I wasn't sure.

   6. AOAlex O’Connor44:28

      Well, I think it's, it's the conservatives who are pushing o- uh, who are pushing against this stuff, right?

   7. CWChris Williamson44:33

      Mm-hmm.

   8. AOAlex O’Connor44:33

      Like, so new atheism. What's new about new atheism? Well, the, the sort of political dimension, you know? It, it's, it's as much a, like a, a movement, a sociological movement, like I say, uh, more so than it is a theological one. And it's much more... It's, it's the reason that new atheism found its way onto, like the national press. It's on Fox News, you know, people debating i- it now, in the way that now it's like, you know, um, I, I, I don't know what it is in America, like, like, you know, gender studies in schools or whatever.

   9. CWChris Williamson45:04

      Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

   10. AOAlex O’Connor45:04

       It used to be like evolution in schools. That's what you turned on the TV and f- like imagine that, you know, like you would turn on the TV and you'd find your Tucker Carlsons and people like just going on and on and on about like evolution and God and religion and Christianity. I mean, it, it's, it's amazing. It, it did, it was doing exactly what like the, you know, the woke social justice stuff is, is doing now in that, in that space. Um, so that was sort of the, the, like the new atheism thing sort of was, was, was this cultural phenomenon talking about politics, you know? Um, it did, it did theology stuff a little bit as well, but, but, you know, it was, it was social movement. And so, okay, what kind of social movement was it? Well, broadly speaking, it was left wing. There's an interesting subset of like YouTube atheists who went on to be like anti-SJW reactionary types, but broadly speaking, the atheist community that that sprung up, Christopher Hitchens, the socialist, um, Richard Dawkins, very left wing, more recently sort of gender critical and, you know, suspicious of Islam, all that kind of stuff, which puts him more on the, on the, on the right. Same thing with Sam Harris. But these guys are like traditionally left-wing people, right? And it's all very, you know, Christian nationalism is suppressing gay rights and gay marriage and abortion and all of this kind of stuff, and contraceptives and divorce laws and all, all of that, right? So new atheism is, is quite left wing. So, whatever, like space it creates culturally, the people who are gonna sort of say, "We don't like this, we don't like what's happening, we wanna react against that," are gonna be conservatives.

   11. CWChris Williamson46:34

       Mm-hmm.

   12. AOAlex O’Connor46:34

       Um, so like in other words, it, it's, it's like it's both. I think it's, it is in many ways a reaction against this vacuum, but the people who are reacting against that vacuum are going to be probably more or less conservatives. They used to call, uh... The Church of England was, was known as the Tory Party at prayer, what they called them.

   13. CWChris Williamson46:56

       (laughs)

   14. AOAlex O’Connor46:56

       The fact that, the fact that nobody is now going to Church of England churches means that it feels like a, a sort of waste of a good label. And I think like the cultural Christianity movement could be called that, you know, the, the Tory Party at prayer. Not the Tory party, 'cause the Tory party is probably about to cease to exist in England. Have you seen this? I think right now as we're speaking depend- yeah, it's gotta be about like, you know, half past or quarter to. Yeah, it'd be, it'd be, it'd be like right now-

   15. CWChris Williamson47:17

       Mm-hmm.

   16. AOAlex O’Connor47:20

       ... um, there's a seven-party debate happening on the BBC. Nigel Farage is currently stood at a podium, like probably shouting at a bunch of other people. Um, and it's amazing, like Reform UK are two points behind the Conservatives at the last poll I checked. Um, I remember hearing that... Well, look, I mean, we, we're in, we're in store for either another sort of 1997 like super Labor success or, or the actual, um, sort of... It, it's like a, it's an, it's an existential moment as Andrew Marr has put it, for, for the, for the, for the Conservative Party. It's sort of amazing to see. So maybe not the Tory Party at prayer, but the English rights-

   17. CWChris Williamson47:56

       Conservative people at prayer.

   18. AOAlex O’Connor47:57

       ... you know, at, at prayer, even if they don't know quite who they're praying to. Um-

   19. CWChris Williamson48:00

       Isn't it interesting though, you know, o- one of the things I noticed since moving over to America is that there is no equivalent of the Christian Right in the UK, or there wasn't.

   20. AOAlex O’Connor48:08

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson48:09

       Right? You know that, you know what I mean, Bible belt-y-

   22. AOAlex O’Connor48:11

       Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson48:12

       Like, you know, it's for God, it's country, it's patriotism, and the constellation of beliefs kind of write themselves.

   24. AOAlex O’Connor48:20

       Yeah. I mean, what, what religion... Well, what religion is our prime minister, you know? And, and also like if you are like... Keir Starmer, is he a Christian? I literally don't know. I have no idea. And if he was, I wouldn't know what kind of Christian he was. And also I don't care, and nor does any of his party, and nor do any of the, the population, you know? Like, genuinely, it's so, it's so strange. I think our prime minister's a Hindu, as far as I'm aware. Um, but I'm not sure how like religious he is in, in that. But can you imagine, like it being a serious part of the conversation in Britain? You, you know, your American listeners might not be fully aware of just how absolutely ludicrous it would be-

   25. CWChris Williamson48:57

       Yeah.

   26. AOAlex O’Connor48:57

       ... to be sort of-... on the campaign trail and somebody asking, you know, "What's your favorite Bible verse?"

   27. CWChris Williamson49:02

       Yeah.

   28. AOAlex O’Connor49:02

       You know, and it- and when, like, Donald Trump can't think of a Bible verse. You know, what is it he said when he was asked for his favorite Bible verse? And he goes, "Oh, there are just- there are just too many. There are just so many. I l- I love it all, I love them all." Um, that- that can- that's a bit of a scandal. It's like the leader of the Republican Party-

   29. CWChris Williamson49:16

       Doesn't know his favorite Bible verse.

   30. AOAlex O’Connor49:17

       ... isn't really a Christian, you know? Like-
7. 57:59 – 1:05:33

   Christianity as a Prophylactic Against Woke

   1. CWChris Williamson57:59

      its usefulness as a prophylactic against wokeism?

   2. AOAlex O’Connor58:03

      Yeah, well, it's kind of the same thing, right? 'Cause it's still, it's still... Well, I mean, what- what's woke culture trying to do? It's trying to sort of undermine Western civilization, you know, the history of Western Europe. It's trying to sort of re-write the books. It's trying to say that a lot of- a lot of the West is- is evil, and patriarchal, and white, and racist, and all of this kind of stuff. This is- this is what, like, people dislike in the so-called woke movement. If you ask someone like Douglas Murray, you know, "What- what- what's the big trouble with wokeists? What don't you like about them?" What will he tell you? He'll say, "They're undermining Western civilization." So it's still this sort of let's save Western civilization approach. And I think that this has come at the same time as the popularization of the thesis that Western civilization is Christian-

   3. CWChris Williamson58:45

      Mm-hmm.

   4. AOAlex O’Connor58:46

      ... therefore, to save the West, we save Christianity.

   5. CWChris Williamson58:48

      It's like an equation.

   6. AOAlex O’Connor58:49

      Yeah. Yeah, sure. Well, h- how do you mean like an equation? Like you sort of add them together?

   7. CWChris Williamson58:56

      (laughs) Yeah, that's how an equation usually works.

   8. AOAlex O’Connor58:59

      Yeah. Yeah, like as in they're- they're treating them as the same.

   9. CWChris Williamson59:01

      Correct. Yes.

   10. AOAlex O’Connor59:02

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson59:02

       That you can... I- if it is a... Or the enemy of my enemy is my friend, right?

   12. AOAlex O’Connor59:06

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson59:06

       Like...

   14. AOAlex O’Connor59:07

       Yeah, it's- it's, um... It... I don't know. It's a bit like... I'm trying to think of an- of an example here of, like, where else people just sort of go a bit... They sort of- they- they- they cozy up to an ideology because it- it's sort of... Uh, no, it- it helps. And I- I don't mean that to be sort of cynical, 'cause we're not always conscious that we're doing this, but we- we become attracted to this ideology, become attracted to this religious tradition, and think, "Oh, yeah, like, I- I like Western civilization." And- and the people who are talking about this Christianity thing, they seem to care about it. They seem to recognize-

   15. CWChris Williamson59:38

       Mm-hmm.

   16. AOAlex O’Connor59:38

       ... that, you know, there's a lot of importance in Western civilization, so they suddenly find themselves becoming more attracted to it. But for the- but it's- it's important to stress that, like, I don't think this thesis is correct. I mean, I'm not- I'm not sure, you know. I- I still haven't actually read through Dominion by Tom Holland, and I really need to do that with the man that I talk about. That's why I'm always very careful to- to talk about his thesis. Um, but, like, I think Western civilization, you know, what's it defined by? Free speech, freedom of religion, um, capitalist economy, um, you know, like basically all of these things which... I mean, you can say that nominal Christians have like established these historically, but if you actually flip open the scripture, there's no way that- that you can describe this as Christian or Judeo-Christian, especially with the Judeo part when it comes to, like, the abolition of slavery. I'm told that this is, oh, it's essentially a Christian movement, the abolition of slavery. Like, as if- as if the Bible, which explicitly condones and teaches you how to take slaves, how to, uh, bequeath them as inheritable property to your children, um, you know, if you- if you march up to a city to attack it and you see a beautiful woman... And I'm not misquoting. If you... It says if you see a beautiful woman, uh, among them, this is in Deuteronomy, I think 20... I think it's like Deuteronomy 21, but I might be wrong about that, yeah, then you can take her as your wife, and if you want to do that, then you take her home. It's a bizarre ritual you-... "shave her head, trim her fingernails, give her exactly 30 days to mourn her parents, who you might have just killed, and then you can take her as your wife." Okay, so now we're told that despite all this sort of scriptural, um, endorsement and instruction, the- well, the abolitionist movement was essentially Christian. Oh, and the Women's Rights Movement is all Christian, it's all Christian ethics equally cropping up. And like, okay, so maybe it's the case, maybe that God was always against slavery and always sort of pro-woman and social justice and all this kind of stuff. It just took us literally thousands of years to work it out. And this just so happened to coincide with the enlightenment. It's possible. Or maybe, actually, no. Maybe this isn't a Christian message. And- and like when I- when I ask specifically, "How is this abolitionist movement or whatever, how is it Christian?" It's like, "Well, Christianity teaches the worth of the individual, the emphasis on, um, sympathizing with the victim." This is the big thing. It's like the idea that Jesus comes down, everyone's expecting the Messiah to be this great military leader who's going to, you know, liberate, uh, the Jews from Roman occupation. And instead you get this man who's, like, poor, ascetic, and is crucified. I mean, we're so used to the crucifixion narrative that we forget how embarrassing it is and shocking it is for your Messiah to die a slave's death. I mean, it's- it's an extraordinary story, it's what makes it such an attractive one. And so we're told, well, you know, this- this idea of, you know, um, sympathy for the victim is- is like uniquely Christian, and that's where we get, like, the care that comes in social justice. Social justice movements are all about, like, caring about the victim. Like yeah, okay, but the Bible doesn't explicitly tell you you're allowed to own other human beings as private property. So how do you square that one? So, in other words, Tom Holland might be right that, like, the sort of nominally Christian Western ethic has, like, built up. Or- or the nominally Christian sis- sort of system and religiosity has built up this Western society. But it can't actually be, like, scriptural, i- in my view. I mean, I might just be wrong about this. But- but so i- it's a little bit confusing to me. That's why I find it difficult to answer the question. Like, you know, why are right-wingers attracted to Christianity? Or are they? Are they attracted to Christianity, as in are they attracted to the message of the gospel? Or are they attracted to what the sort of Christian church and Christian religion has historically been able to politically provide, you know?

   17. CWChris Williamson1:03:42

       Mm-hmm. I wonder how much is that it provides a more stable and sophisticated sounding, by virtue of how long it's been around, pushback against something that, in comparison, is flimsy, contemporary, uh, less steeped in-

   18. AOAlex O’Connor1:04:01

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:04:02

       ... nostalgia and- and, um, less stable in that way. Like if- if you were to create a thing that would act in opposition to super progressive, very new, very contemporary, very quickly changing-

   20. AOAlex O’Connor1:04:17

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson1:04:18

       ... uh, you would choose the most Lindy story that you can.

   22. AOAlex O’Connor1:04:21

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:04:21

       What's the one that's been around for as long as possible?

   24. AOAlex O’Connor1:04:23

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:04:23

       And, uh, you know, we can kind of, well forget that bit, we don't need to really worry about shaving the head and cutting the fingernails, and we don't really need to worry about the slaves and passing them down to your children-

   26. AOAlex O’Connor1:04:31

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson1:04:32

       ... stuff like that. And I suppose that with Christianity, because it is, as Sam Harris said, it's a relatively low T religion-

   28. AOAlex O’Connor1:04:39

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CWChris Williamson1:04:40

       ... uh, they're quite prepared, it seems to me, like they take less offense at people, um, playing fast and loose-

   30. AOAlex O’Connor1:04:49

       Yep.
8. 1:05:33 – 1:15:31

   Why Isn’t There an Islamic Revival?

   1. CWChris Williamson1:05:33

      not an Islamic revival?

   2. AOAlex O’Connor1:05:34

      Because, um... Well, no, sorry, there is. Is- is this, this is the other thing I, this is what I was about to bring up actually, was- was the fact that like, okay, a bunch of like, you know, our political establishment, the civil service have just been totally taken over by this woke culture, man. Um, and everyone's a bit like, "Come on, seriously? Like, really?" Um, you know, on- on the anniversary of D-Day, we've got pride flags flying over Regent Street, like, instead of the British flag. I think that's true, might not be true, but you get the point I'm making. People are like, "Oh, I'm fed up with all of this."

   3. CWChris Williamson1:06:05

      Probably is somewhere.

   4. AOAlex O’Connor1:06:05

      "Fed up with all of this nonsense." And so you just said, like, you know, you need something that's- that's old, tried and tested, you know, and can stand up against this. And so you get a bunch of, like, particularly, I think disaffected young men who, you know, the, like, Islam is very attractive to them, uh, attractive to them because it- because it says, "Well, look, you don't believe in all this crap, do you?" You don't believe in that, you believe in- you believe in certain kinds of values, you believe that you should stand up for yourself, you believe in gender roles, you believe in this, right? Like yeah, I do actually. It's like, well this is, Islam can give you this and it can justify it, and it can give you the- the strength and the community behind you to assert those values-

   5. CWChris Williamson1:06:43

      Mm-hmm.

   6. AOAlex O’Connor1:06:44

      ... and not have to worry about being some kind of like ou- outcast or condemned or whatever. No, because like we- we all believe the same thing as you, and we're growing, and we're popular, and nobody wants to criticize us because we stand up for ourselves, you know? Okay, yeah, sign me up for that.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:06:55

      Mm-hmm.

   8. AOAlex O’Connor1:06:56

      Whereas the Christians are still very much like sort of, yeah, like- like you say, they're- they- they're- they're, well, they have the message of turning the other cheek.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:07:05

      Yeah.

   10. AOAlex O’Connor1:07:05

       This is the Jesus figure, so yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:07:07

       And their belief as well is that you will be judged eventually.Not necessarily right now.

   12. AOAlex O’Connor1:07:13

       Y- yeah. It's a, it is a different sort of message of, of, of salvation. I mean, Christianity has the sacrifice of Jesus for your sins. And, and i- Islam doesn't have that. Islam doesn't believe that, that Jesus died on the cross, again, because we forget how radical it is that killing a prophet... Like, God wouldn't allow that to happen. So the idea of Jesus dying on the cross is a, is a, is a total anathema to the, to the Islamic understanding of who God is. And that, 'cause again, Islam is much more sort of, like, proud and stand up for yourself kind of thing. Having, having this, this embarrassing slave death for their prophet, like, it doesn't run.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:07:45

       Mm-hmm.

   14. AOAlex O’Connor1:07:45

       So Jesus doesn't die on the, on the cross in, in Islam. Um, whereas in Christianity, yeah, he dies on the cross and he sort of pays your sin and all this kind of stuff. It's a much more, like, "I'm gonna sort of throw myself on Christ, you know?"

   15. CWChris Williamson1:07:59

       Hmm.

   16. AOAlex O’Connor1:07:59

       "Woe to me and my sin."

   17. CWChris Williamson1:08:00

       Hmm.

   18. AOAlex O’Connor1:08:01

       Um, and so, and that's more attractive to some and less attractive to others. But it, it, it sort of means... I, I think that also is why you get more, like, Christian churches who are sort of like, "Oh, we're totally open and we're, like, pro-pride, and we've got a transgender priest," and all of this kind of stuff, when you don't see that happening in Islam, at least not as much, to the same degree. A lot of people like to s-

   19. CWChris Williamson1:08:21

       I'm not, I'm just not quite working out why that has resulted in churches, Christian churches, or, uh, uh, Christian belief, that permits people to be more piecemeal.

   20. AOAlex O’Connor1:08:33

       Becau- well, that's actually, I think, a, a slightly separate thing.

   21. CWChris Williamson1:08:36

       Yeah.

   22. AOAlex O’Connor1:08:36

       Which is, which is important to, to spell out. A lot of people say simply that Islam is like, you know, uh, half a millennium younger than Christianity, right? Because it sort of, it crops up later than Christianity, and therefore, Christianity, you know, has its sort of enlightenment, revival, reformation 500 years ago, and Islam is, like, five, six, 700 years behind.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:09:06

       Mm-hmm.

   24. AOAlex O’Connor1:09:06

       So, it just hasn't got there yet, right?

   25. CWChris Williamson1:09:07

       Yeah.

   26. AOAlex O’Connor1:09:07

       And, and, like, a- a lot of people do this line. I don't think it's right, because it, it sort of treats Islam as a religion like it's sort of still-

   27. CWChris Williamson1:09:16

       A baby or something, yeah.

   28. AOAlex O’Connor1:09:16

       It, and, and, and that it's like, it's, like, not connected to the world in some way, that it, that it's like, "Oh, we'll give it 500 years and, and for some reason, it will just happen in the same amount of time as if it could..." Like, maybe, but I, I don't think that's true. I think it's, it's got more to do with the way that the scripture and the, and the, and the, and the prophets are, are treated. Like, in Islam, the Quran is the word of God, which has sort of existed for all time. Um, and, you know, the Quran, you, you, you hold in, in, in your hands, the Mushaf, the, the copy. Um, the written copy is, is a copy of a message which is eternal, right? Which is d- which is...

   29. CWChris Williamson1:09:51

       It's the final word of God, Islam, right?

   30. AOAlex O’Connor1:09:52

       Yeah. Q- Quran means recitation. So it, it's just, you know, Mohammed receives... And Muhammad is illiterate, he can't read, he can't write. And, and God, um, sort of speaks to him in, in a cave and says, you know, says, "Write or recite," or, or, or something like, to that effect. And, and Muhammad is sort of like, "Well, I, I'm, I'm illiterate. I, I can't, I can't do it." And, and he just commands him to do it anyway. And Muhammad is, is, is so sort of freaked out by this that, uh, I think according to some reports, he considers suicide. He goes to, like, throw himself off a cliff, and then he goes home to his first wife, who is the first person to encourage him that he's actually heard the word of God, and that, you know, he should submit to it. So she's known as, like, the first Muslim. She's the first person to sort of, you know, recognize the message and, and-

Episode duration: 2:14:19