Modern WisdomWhen Feminism Stopped Being About Women - Freya India
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,230 words- 0:00 – 5:13
Is Gen-Z in a Mental Health Crisis?
- CWChris Williamson
Is Gen Z in a mental health crisis?
- FIFreya India
Yes. Yeah. (laughs) Um, basically, since the early 2010s, our mental health has just tanked, um, especially for girls. So we started to see these spikes in anxiety and depression, things like eating disorders, um, but also rise in self-harm and suicide. So for example, in the US between 2012 and 2019, the suicide rate for white middle-aged men increased by 3%. But for girls aged between 12 and 14, it increased by 138%. And the- the statistics on self-harm are equally as horrific. So something happened around 2012 that is particularly affecting girls, but a- as a whole is affecting the entirety of Gen Z.
- CWChris Williamson
How much of this is laid at the feet of social media do you think?
- FIFreya India
Well, I would say a lot, but obviously there's- you know, it's debatable. So some studies show like a negligible impact of social media, others show that it's terrible. Um, but the thing is with those is some of the studies kind of lump in screen time with social media. So they'll say like, you know, "Screen time is bad for you," but that could be texting friends, that could be scrolling through Instagram. So they're kind of unreliable. But I think the most compelling bit of evidence is the timeline, so mental health started to decline in the early 2010s. The iPhone came out in 2007, Instagram came out in 2010, editing apps started to come out around 2013. Um, and also the fact that it's particularly affecting girls. We know that girls spend a lot more time on social media. All the other explanations don't really seem to add up when it comes to why it would be girls, so things like people say the housing ladder or the economy or the climate crisis, and none of them quite fit that explanation apart from social media for me anyway.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, why is it that women would be particularly concerned about the housing crisis or about the future-
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... temperature or the amount of carbon in the atmosphere? What is it that's causing, beyond just the excessive use of social media, what's the- what's the type of use of social media that's causing this, uh, disparate effect on girls?
- FIFreya India
Yeah, well, I think there's- there's different aspects to it. So there's how girls are using social media, so things like obviously social comparison, comparing yourself to everybody and comparing your productivity and your looks and your lifestyle to everyone all the time, which is terrible for mental health. So there's that, but then there's also how social media enables companies to have close access to girls. So the targeted advertising, um, and the ability to monitor them, to collect data, and to sell that data to platforms who then bombard them with advertisements. Um, so I think a big part of this is the industries that are now able to follow girls around and kind of inundate them. It's an onslaught of advertising, and it's, you know, specific to that young girl's insecurities or vulnerabilities. So, you know, if a girl was anxious about how she looks, she'll get bombarded with beauty companies who are trying to sell her fixes to her specific worries. So it's kind of both at the same time. It's how they're spending their time on social media, but also how companies are utilizing that to exploit them for profit.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, dig into that. What- what are the companies that are targeting monetizing mental distress of girls online? How are they doing this?
- FIFreya India
So the- the way I would phrase it is I would, like, firstly say that, you know, to have some, like, adolescent angst and turmoil when you're young is normal, especially for, like, adolescent girls. So we know that adolescent girls are more anxious, more risk-averse, more prone to perfectionism than boys at the same age. So I think all of that's pretty normal, and I think every woman would say she's been through, you know, body image issues or whatever. But I think what's happening now is companies are able to exploit those vulnerabilities and- and target them. So for example, I would say it's completely normal for a girl to worry about how she looks, you know, everyone will experience that, but it's not normal to have to deal with that in a world of Instagram influencers and TikTok filters and editing apps. At the same time, it's probably normal to worry about your feelings, to feel a bit anxious, but now girls are having to contend with that in a world of therapy culture and ads for ADHD medication and quizzes saying, like, "You might be autistic." Um, and other things as well, like, you know, insecurities in relationships, jealousy, paranoia. I think that's all normal when you're young, but dealing with that in a world of dating apps and hookup culture and online porn, it becomes unmanageable. So I think what's happening is those- all kinds of industries, so the beauty industry, what I would call the therapy industry, the pharmaceutical industry, social media companies, are all going after these age-old feelings and kind of ramping them up to a degree that I think the average girl can't cope with.
- 5:13 – 9:20
The Dangers of Unnecessary Therapy
- FIFreya India
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, it's very interesting, uh, you know, online therapy companies in some ways... And I- I'm a huge proponent of therapy, I'm using it myself in Austin, in-person talk therapy, and I never thought about the dangers of having immediate 24/7 access over the internet to somebody that... What- what- what is the problem with that? Shouldn't people be able to talk about their feelings with someone who's a qualified professional at all times? Why is that- why is there a danger behind that?
- FIFreya India
Yeah, well, so that's the thing now, it's called unlimited messaging therapy. So it's what most of these platforms are like BetterHelp, Talkspace, that's what they're advertising. Um, and the way they phrase it, so for example, Talkspace will say, you know, "Talking to a therapist is like texting with a trusted friend," or something. BetterHelp will say-... you know, pay an influencer to say, "Oh, you know, it's like talking to a bestie." And that the problem with... There's a couple of problems with that. The first is that, you know, being able to message a therapist 24/7 from your room means that you're not developing resilience to deal with things. So if you're socially anxious, you're still in your room, you're still on your phone. Um, and, you know, if you're struggling with something, if you feel an uncomfortable emotion, you're able to just get that instant gratification and be soothed, which is the worst thing for anxiety. (laughs) Um, so, so that's bad, but then it's also I feel like these companies push this kind of therapy culture, which is this, this kind of idea that you can have perfect mental health. So you can... any negative emotion you feel is diagnosable and solvable through their service, and I think that puts pressure on Gen Z. I think, you know, there's pressure from social media companies to have this perfect life. There's pressure from beauty companies to have a perfect face. Then you have pressure from therapy companies to have, like, this perfect soul that never experiences negative emotions. Like, if you look at the advertising, the advertising is like, "If you, if you ever feel worried, if you ever have anxiety, you know, connect with a therapist now." Which, you know, it's, it's so bad for resilience, but it's also so obvious why they're doing that. Because if you can convince a generation that, you know, they can- if they pay enough, they can remove those negative emotions, then there's nothing more profitable than that.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. You've said, uh, "It's the marketization and medicalization of normal distress. A cultural emphasis on treating every emotion we feel as diagnosable and solvable with consumption is doing so much psychological damage."
- FIFreya India
Yeah. So I think, you know, two things can be true. There can be a mental health crisis where there's girls that are severely mentally ill, but there can also be this growing population of girls who are just anxious and stressed, and they're being convinced to see their behavior in ways that suit these therapy companies and these drug companies. And I think very often, ironically, it makes them feel mentally ill.
- CWChris Williamson
What are hot girl pills?
- FIFreya India
(laughs) Um, so hot girl pills are SSRIs or antidepressants. Um, it's a way that Gen Z girls seem to describe their antidepressants on TikTok. There's also silly girl pills. Um, there's also all kinds of, like, mental health merchandise with pills on them. There's Prozac pillows, there's antidepressant phone cases. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- FIFreya India
I could go on. There's a common phrase now, like, "Hot girls take Lexapro," uh, "Sexy girls take Sertraline," all kinds of stuff like that. So not only is there kind of the normalization of these mental health diagnoses, but the absolute glamorization of them now.
- 9:20 – 16:50
Gaps Between Social Media & Reality
- CWChris Williamson
How much of this is talked about in person, do you think? Because obviously on the internet, you select for-
- FIFreya India
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... a very particular type of, uh, communication, a very particular type of person. Some insane percentage of people on Twitter just lurk and never tweet-
- FIFreya India
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... or essentially never tweet. You know, 90% of the content is created by 3% of the users, or something along those lines.
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, I wonder what the in-person discussions have... Online discussions about SSRIs and mental health and hot girls have IBS or whatever the new trend is-
- FIFreya India
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... is that showing up IRL as well?
- FIFreya India
Well, the thing is... So sometimes I get criticism where people will say, "Oh, you know, this is- you're, you're taking TikToks or you're talking about what's on Twitter." But it's like, Gen Z in the UK is spending 10.6 hours a day on screens, I think, uh, is the average. Girls... So there was a new, um, study recently saying Gen Z are spending two hours a day o- on TikTok alone. Um, girls are making up the majority of that. So 57% of TikTok users are female. Um, I think a third are under 14. And so when people say, "Oh, you know, this is just a social media thing. I don't see this in real life," it's like, this is real life for a lot of young people. This is the majority of their day. This is what's forming their assumptions about themselves and the world. You know, that distinction has gone. Um, and so I think... I don't hear it as much in real life, but, you know, I do think if you took a 12-year-old's day and you took, you know, the time she's spending talking in real life to friends and then the amount of time she's passively scrolling through Instagram and TikTok, I think those trends really matter and shape her worldview.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. We were in Dubai four... three years ago and... escaping lockdown, and, um, we were in Mr. Miyagi's, which is just a, like, famous popular bar on the Marina. And George, who's been on the show, was talking to a 22-year-old, 23-year-old girl that lives in Dubai and didn't have much to do and... I can't re- I can't remember what her job was, uh, or maybe she was in school or something. And he said, "Oh, can I just have a look at your screen time?" So, went in and she didn't even know... I don't think she was aware of, of... that there was, uh, something tracking. And that day, she'd spent eight hours on TikTok. That one day-
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... she'd spent eight hours-
- FIFreya India
On TikTok?
- CWChris Williamson
On TikTok. Eight hours in a single day on TikTok.
- FIFreya India
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So that's real life then.
- CWChris Williamson
But that... Yeah, it's-
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... it's a full-time job. It's probably more than the amount of sleep that she'd gotten-
- FIFreya India
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, which is wild. And I think that you're right, you know.If, during a period of your life that's so super formative, so much of the things that you're exposed to are through the internet-
- FIFreya India
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... talking about, "That's just what you see online," is a presumption from people who assume that there is a life outside of being online.
- FIFreya India
Yeah. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, it's a misunderstanding of how the day is portioned out between-
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... keyboard and non-keyboard.
- FIFreya India
I, I think that about a lot of things. Like, I think it about, say, like, beauty trends. Some people will be like, "Oh, I d- I don't understand why girls are having this plastic s- women are having this plastic surgery, and they look so weird in real life." And it's like, they don't... They're not doing it for real life, they're doing it for social media very often, and for how they look on camera. And so, I think there's a lot of trends that people find confusing about Gen Z. Whereas if you start to think, actually, there's no distinction between social media and the real world anymore, they start to make a bit more sense.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes. If it's an online-first existence-
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- 16:50 – 23:24
How Public Should You Be on Social Media?
- CWChris Williamson
It's this balance between normalizing and glamorizing mental health issues, I think.
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You know, 'cause... How old are you?
- FIFreya India
24.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. So, you must be the top end, you must be-
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... the older end of Gen Z, right?
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
The bridge straddling that and Millennial. Um, there was a period, I think, probably about five years ago or so. Uh, what was it? It's Okay To Talk?
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That was the mental health campaign in the UK. Do you remember?
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And I always had a problem with that. Mental health is something I'm so... I'm super passionate about, because it was always a, uh, a difficulty for me in my 20s. And I hated the It's Okay To Talk thing, because I understood what it was trying to do was say, "We must literally normalize the, uh, topic of mental health as something which is discussed by typical people, from friends-"
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"... to friends." But I was like, "It's not just..." Like, and what? Like, and what after that?
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
What else needs to be done? I think we have moved way beyond normalizing the conversation about mental health. Now, there's certain sub-groups.
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
My da- my dad, for instance. I imagine that him and his friends, you know, in their 60s, probably could do with a little bit more of a push and a poke to do that.
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
They had the Men's Sheds initiative in Australia, which was very good at this, men talking shoulder to shoulder, whereas women are talking face-to-face. But it's almost like the...It's like a badge of honor or a rite of passage for certain sub-groups, especially in Gen Z, to talk, uh, the hot girls have IBS. Like, your gut problems are something-
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that you should be wearing front and center, you know, like, @IBShottie-
- FIFreya India
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... or whatever, on TikTok, probably exists. You know, it ... And this links in, I suppose, to something else that you've spoken about, and I had a huge conversation with Mary Harrington about, which is the danger of showing the entirety of your life on the internet.
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
What's your perspective on that?
- FIFreya India
Yeah, well I feel that especially with mental health issues. Like, the amount of, like you said, the amount of campaigns saying, "We need to open up, we need to talk, you need to share your problems, share them on social media." So, there's influencers who start hashtags like, there's this guy, Dr. Alex Shaw, he was on Love Island, um-
- CWChris Williamson
I remember Dr. Alex, yes.
- FIFreya India
Yeah. So he started a campaign called Post Your Pill, which is to encourage young fans to post their mental health medication and talk about it. And he's kind of urging them, you know, "Please join in, because you need to fight the stigma, you need to join part of the conversation." And firstly, I don't think we should be telling young people that it's their duty or it's kind of, you know, they should be part of fighting the stigma, but-
- 23:24 – 30:46
Capturing Memories Instead of Being Present
- FIFreya India
- CWChris Williamson
... to everything. All right. What about, what, what are the other things, what, this trend of people documenting their lives on the internet? What other ridiculous things have people been documenting?
- FIFreya India
Well, the most ridiculous, so I wrote recently, like, ranted about this. But the, the thing that's really getting to me recently is like, the intimate personal moments. So, meaningful things that happen in your life, like once or twice, never again. People are spending that time filming them and recording them for social media. Uh, like ordinary people, I'm not just talking about influencers, I'm talking about this pressure to, to capture everything and share it. So I did like a Substack post where I was like looking through some of these TikToks, f- so it, influencers are the worst examples, so theirs are the, the most crazy. But there's like one where this woman has just given birth, and, um, her family come in to view the baby, all holding their phones-... filming as they come in the door, and then looking at the child through the screen rather than at the actual child. (laughs) And that's not the most dystopian thing. The most dystopian thing were the normal young people, like, quote-tweeting this really dystopian video saying, like, "There's nothing wrong with it." You know, "They're just trying to remember the moment." And if you take yourself out and look at it, it's so dystopian, and it's just so weird that we, we come up with, you know, justifications for something really surreal like that. And there's that vi- Did you see the video of Paris on New Year's Eve?
- CWChris Williamson
Yes. Where the biggest light show were people phone screens-
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... on the...
- FIFreya India
Everyone. But people justifying that, saying, you know, they wanna remember the fireworks. And I just think-
- CWChris Williamson
Like memories don't exist without-
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You've traveled all the way to Paris, you're about to see the countdown. I, I-
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... understand. It's, it's strange because things that are really impressive are the things you want to take photos of because they're impressive. But because they're impressive, they're going to stick in your memory more, so you don't actually-
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... need to take the photos. Now, it's different. If you're taking a selfie, like, that's ha-
- FIFreya India
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, you don't see yourself.
- FIFreya India
Yeah. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Or, you know, there's something special about that. (sighs) I don't know. I, that, I really struggle with this. I had a, I encountered an issue, uh, that I realized about two years ago. I dissociated any sort of posting, uh, any sort of photo-taking as super cringe because-
- FIFreya India
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... I thought, "Classic influencer dickhead. Here he is, you know, can't-
- FIFreya India
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... even go out for dinner without taking a photo of the food." But I realized that almost all of the photos I was taking weren't getting posted on social media.
- FIFreya India
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
They were for me. They were for me. I was sending them to, uh, my mum or I was sending them to friends. I was doing whatever. Like, I just wanted that. And it wasn't big shit. It was usually small things on the way. Uh, the-
- FIFreya India
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... taxi, the $30 10-minute taxi ride I got in Honduras, uh, back here. I took a photo of the guy's, the driver's seat, because he had this crazy... He'd fixed his seat. Obviously, little bit of a developing country in some ways. And, uh, I was like, "That's fucking cool."
- FIFreya India
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, I just wanted to remember, "Oh, God, do you remember when you were in Honduras and that guy's seat was fixed with a tennis racquet?" Like, "That's cool."
- FIFreya India
Yeah. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, but yeah, I... And especially if there's news cameras there. Th- there's-
- 30:46 – 34:41
The Advice Young People Aren’t Receiving
- CWChris Williamson
also said... I've seen a quote from you that says, "What's totally absent from modern mental health advice is trying to be a better person." What's that mean?
- FIFreya India
Yeah, I got some backlash for that. (laughs) Um, well, what I was trying to say by that is, I think, you know, Gen Z especially are bombarded with mental health advice that is always "buy a product or have this service or, um, you know, take a pill for whatever's wrong with you." Um, and I'm not talking about, you know, severely mentally ill people, but for most of Gen Z who are anxious, stressed, um, having these normal adolescent feelings that are being ramped up by modern life, um, you know, you, you, you don't necessarily need therapy. You don't necessarily need to take a pill. What you very often need is to look at your life and think about it, you know. The first thing to think about is whether you have real human connection in your life, whether you have, like, a solid community. Um, then if you're, you know, eating right, if you're exercising right. Then things like how you're treating people, how you're maintaining your relationships. But it's so absent from mental health advice because people, like, a- are absolutely terrified now of telling young people, you know, maybe this is not a mental health diagnosis. Maybe this is something you have agency over. Y- you just would never hear it. You would never hear it from a mental health campaign. You'd never hear it from an influencer.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- FIFreya India
They'd never say, you know, "Take a look at your own life. Have you done everything you can to feel good? And are you trying your best to be a good person?" Um, yet there's no way they would get away with saying it.
- CWChris Williamson
It's very strange, you know, coming from this Joe Rogan, David Goggins, Jocko Willink, Alex Hormozi universe of everyone saying, "No one cares. Just work harder." Uh, like, "Stop complaining. Just improve." Like, that whole sort of world view almost feels trite and obvious and kind of, uh, uh, in some ways, like, old.
- FIFreya India
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, well, that... You know, that, that's, that's... There's nothing novel to be said with that. Um, but I guess you're forgetting about the cohort of people for whom that is a radical-
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... assumption.
- FIFreya India
Well, I think girls and young women don't hear that. Um, you know, I- I think there's, th- there's a lot of, um, obviously talk about, like, young men not having role models, but I think in recent years, that has changed. You know, there's al- there's Jordan Peterson, there's you, there's all kinds of podcasters who're trying to fill that gap and speak to young men and tell them, you know, to think about discipline and think about how they're treating people and, you know, if they're the best version of themselves. But I think there's a massive gap for young women because people are absolutely terrified to say-
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- FIFreya India
... you know, "Are you being a good person?" Especially to women, because they think it's, you know, regressing back, um, to telling women what to do. But I think, you know, young women are craving that because, uh, deep down, 'cause all we're hearing is, "Everything you do is great. Everything you do is empowering. Everything, you know, if, if, if you like it, then it's good for your mental health, then go for it." You know, we're hearing that from, like, mainstream feminism, we're hearing it from therapy culture, and we're hearing it from all of these kind of influencers and celebrities who are our role models, like Kim Kardashian or whoever it is, you know. Where is the female Jordan Peterson saying, "No, this behavior is not good." Um-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- FIFreya India
"... this is the kind of behavior that, you know, is gonna be bad for your well-being and the people around you." We, we just won't hear that.
- CWChris Williamson
Who are the heroes, heroines... Who are the heroines of Gen Z? Like, what are the girls... You know, if you were talking about... I'm aware that, uh, y- you say
- 34:41 – 38:08
Who Are Gen-Z Girls Looking Up to?
- CWChris Williamson
there isn't an equivalent of the, uh, of the Jordan Peterson or the Andrew Tate or the, the Rogan or whatever, but who is the... Who are the girls looking up to? Kardashians? What else?
- FIFreya India
Yeah, I think pop culture figures. So, I think it would, if you were to ask them, it would be, like, singers and celebrity. It would be like Taylor Swift. It would be, like, actresses they see on TV.
- CWChris Williamson
Zendaya, Ariana Grande.
- FIFreya India
Yeah. Yeah, so, you know, people who aren't, aren't gonna push a strong moral, um, value system on young women. They're gonna be very vague about everything for fear of offending and for fear of lecturing. Um, and I think... You know, everyone talks about, um, coddling Gen Z, but I think this is a big part of it, is that we're absolutely terrified to, to tell girls and young women w- what to do, you know. But you have to tell young people what to do, what to aim for, so that they can... You know, they're growing up now with absolutely no milestones for coming of age, no kind of guidance of where to go in the direction of their life. And I think it does a great, you know, disservice to young women to just pretend everything they do is fine. Um, and I- I think, yeah, we are actually craving some of that discipline that men are craving as well.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I have a theory that over the next 10 years, the female mental health crisis will be the main story and the male body image crisis. I think that we're going to switch from crisis of femininity-
- FIFreya India
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, crisis of masculinity to crisis of femininity and crisis of female body image to crisis of male body image. Now, girls are also maybe gonna hold on to both of those titles, I'm not sure.
- FIFreya India
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
But, uh, male, male body dysmorphia is on track to overtake female body dysmorphia within about two decades.
- FIFreya India
Really?
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, yeah.
- FIFreya India
But is that caused by... Is that fitness kind of...
- CWChris Williamson
A good chunk of it. Um, so...... the male, the ideal male body has changed an awful lot. You know, perfect examples of this, if you look at action figures, if you look at Luke Skywalker from the '70s as a, you know, a kid's action figure, he's just a normal dude. You look at Luke Skywalker now, and he looks like he's on a very heavy course of PEDs.
- FIFreya India
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, and yeah, like all of the representations physically of men are unbelievably jacked. It- that's not to say-
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I mean, look at what's happened with Barbie, like how many, um... Look at the waist-to-hip ratio of Barbie. If Barbie was in the real world, she'd basically have no internal organs, et cetera, et cetera. There's been a- a reckoning around that-
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... for women, uh, and there hasn't been for men. So it's always this flip-flop of, "Well, men have got, you know, the- the- this thing is something that we need to be concerned about with them," and that gets forgotten for the girls, and then the same thing-
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... happens for girls with what gets forgotten-
- FIFreya India
It's true.
- CWChris Williamson
... for men.
- FIFreya India
Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I think the, I think a lot of the mental health advice now is- is geared toward women, so it's like, you know, "Talk more about your problems," you know, view it in a very kind of female way. Um, but I actually think th- that's gone so far that it's now harming women as well. (laughs) You know, we're constantly saying to men, "You should be opening up more about your problems." Would never ever, you know, ever dare to say to women, "Maybe you're opening up too much."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- FIFreya India
You know, that would be unacceptable.
- 38:08 – 42:39
Is Society Coddling Women Too Much?
- FIFreya India
- CWChris Williamson
There was this interesting, uh, quote that I found from Steve Stewart Williams, guy that wrote, uh, The Apes Who Understood the Universe, one of my favorite books, and he said, uh, "Consider the claim that society encourages males to be aggressive. This is probably true in some ways. We do sometimes give boys the message that they ought to be tough and not cry. Overall though, we spend a lot more time discouraging male aggression than female. Why? Because males are more aggressive. Or consider the claim that we tell girls to be quiet and passive. Again, we probably do this sometimes. More often though, we tell boys to be quiet and passive. Why? For the same reason, boys are louder and more disruptive."
- FIFreya India
Yeah. That's true. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Very interesting.
- FIFreya India
I think it's, um... Yeah, but I think what's happening now is we- we try to, the more you try to do something that's gonna help young women, like... (sighs) I think everyone's trying to be very, um, careful with their language and careful with how they approach these issues because they know that women don't really like that direct discipline the same amount th- that boys and men do. They don't, we don't respond to it quite the same.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- FIFreya India
I think that is true. But now we've taken it to such an extreme where we're terrified to tell women anything. You know, it's all about, um, what makes us happy, what our desires are. Um, so it's based on some truth but it's just swung way too far.
- CWChris Williamson
It's like, this is coddling culture basically.
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Wh- what, is it making girls more depressed or more bitchy do you think?
- FIFreya India
Uh, both at the same time. (laughs) No, I think, um, I think most of the narrative now is, you know, social media and, uh, therapy culture and all of these things are making girls anxious and making them depressed. Um, but I think a lot of things in modern life are also making girls, you know, behave worse as well. So social media for example. We know that girls' insecurities are a lucrative market that companies go after, but I also think companies know how to draw out female s- vices as well. So if you look at social media platforms, they're like perfectly set up for girls to be mean to each other, to engage in this kind of indirect forms of aggression like reputation destruction, passive aggression, gossip. It's like perfect on social media, so if you wanna s- socially exclude someone, you've got like the Snapchat Snap Map where you can have your live location, all of the friends are together, and you can see that you're not with them. Um, you know, you can create group chats where you cut people out, you can, if you wanna be passive aggressive, you can, like, tweet about someone but not mention their name so you're just like subtly, um, digging them. And you know companies play on this, like Instagram lets you have a set of close friends where you can exclude other people. There's apps like, um, NGL, which is like an anonymous messaging app.
- CWChris Williamson
NGO?
- FIFreya India
Not Gonna Lie. So it's like you say something about, "Not gonna lie, she's really ugly." (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) There was something called Ya- Yak? YakYak?
- FIFreya India
Oh, yeah. Is that a similar thing?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, that was basically the same. So it was geolocated anonymous posting, and, uh, this was for a couple of years in club promo, this was fucking fire because it meant, (laughs) it meant that we could all, we could all talk shit about every other promoter from town and know that everyone in town that was using YakYak or whatever, um, would see it, but that no one could say who it came from-
- FIFreya India
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, because it, by design it was anonymous. It was so funny, uh, but it-
- FIFreya India
Did you have, um, Ask.fm? Was that when you were younger?
- CWChris Williamson
No. What was Ask.fm?
- FIFreya India
Oh, so that was like brutal. That was, again, it's like anonymous messaging app where you can just, r- like people would just use it to rate other people, so you'd be like, "Can you give this girl a rating on like looks, personality?" (laughs) It was absolutely brutal. But yeah, companies are doing that because they know adolescents, teenagers, especially girls can be absolutely brutal to each other in that way, um, so they're playing on that as well. So I- I think it's- it's not only how social m- media is making us feel, but it's like who it's encouraging us to become as well.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- 42:39 – 49:04
Bring Back Selfie Editing Shame
- CWChris Williamson
Do you think selfie editing is a powerful act of self-expression?
- FIFreya India
Um, no. (laughs) Uh, yeah, so that was Facetune, wasn't it? Um, so it's so weird how that has changed. I mean, I remember when I was younger, people used to kind of disguise the fact they were editing their photos. It was like a, a shameful thing. But now it's kind of spun to, uh, something to be proud of. It's like self-expression. It's just like putting on makeup. Um, and the companies, I don't know what came first, but now the companies are jumping on that saying, you know, selfie editing is empowering and it's about, um, self-love, it's like about being proud of who you are and enhancing that. Like they use all kinds of language to spin it. Um, I think it was Khloé Kardashian, uh, said like, "Facetune is life-changing." She also Facetuned her newborn baby as well. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
She Facetuned her newborn baby?
- FIFreya India
Yeah. There's a picture of her holding her baby, and the baby is like ridiculously airbrushed. Um, (laughs) but, um-
- CWChris Williamson
Did anyone pull her up on this?
- FIFreya India
Yeah, I think people did say, you know, this is a step, step too far.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) But saying that it's a powerful female self-expression and it's true self-love to...
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
(sighs) What's ha- talk, talk me through what's happening with self-image, body image, girls' sort of perspectives and perceptions of how they should look physically, facially, all the rest of it.
- FIFreya India
Well, it's interesting because we, we seem to be the generation that's been inundated with this kind of message of self-love and body positivity. It's like it's everywhere. But we're the generation who seem to be struggling with it the most, so we're having... We've got record rates of cosmetic surgeries among Gen Z, so things like lip fillers, liposuction, boob jobs, all going up for Gen Z. And the clients getting younger and younger, so you're getting kind of teenagers who are... So Botox is banned in England. Teenagers are traveling to Wales to get Botox to prevent aging. (laughs) Um, so you've got these like record rates of cosmetic surgery, record rates of body dysmorphia, eating disorders, uh, facial dysmorphia, so things like, um, young women going to plastic surgeons asking to look like the Snapchat filter version of themselves.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- FIFreya India
Whereas before they'd come in with like a picture of a celebrity.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- FIFreya India
And now it's them with a filter. So despite being so loud about, you know, self-love and self-acceptance and having that kind of shoved down our throats, it w- the opposite seems to be happening.
- CWChris Williamson
That's so interesting.
- FIFreya India
Yeah, and I, I mean, I would put that down to social media because, you know, I don't think older generations quite realize how often Gen Z, especially Gen Z women, are looking at their faces because of their phone and because of TikTok and Instagram.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, it's like having a mirror with you everywhere that you go.
- FIFreya India
Yeah. And it's, uh, you know, it's also th- you're seeing a distorted version of yourself through filters and through your camera, so when you're looking in the mirror or someone takes a photo of you, it's very different to that camera image that you're so accustomed to. And it's wrong.
- CWChris Williamson
With the right angle that you know, with the right lighting-
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
...that you know, with the filter that you like.
- FIFreya India
So it's dysmorphia. It's like I, I, I don't recognize-
- CWChris Williamson
But it's selfie dysmorphia.
- FIFreya India
Yeah. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It's not... It's, it's... Uh, so there's, there's a couple of things here, first off being, um, other people on the internet portray themselves and make photos and videos of themselves in a way which is misrepresentative of the way that they actually look-
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
...in the real world. And, again, this recursive conveyor belt thing that we both separately came up with, um, causes you to spend or to see people as their online version, not their real life version.
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Then this is a very unique version of it, which is how you see yourself on the phone is actually different to how you are in the real world.
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- 49:04 – 52:48
More & More Women Getting Cosmetic Surgery
- FIFreya India
- CWChris Williamson
Have you been watching this season of Love Island that's happening right now?
- FIFreya India
I have not.
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- FIFreya India
No.
- CWChris Williamson
What a shame for you. What a shame.
- FIFreya India
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, so this is Love Island All Stars, which is-
- FIFreya India
Oh.
- CWChris Williamson
... bringing back, there's at least two or three, uh, people from my season.
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And, uh, that's been interesting to observe. Um, remembering, my season was s- uh, eight years ago, eight or nine years ago. Hannah, who was this, uh, Scouse girl, um, she purposefully went to get Bratz doll surgery.
- FIFreya India
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Have you heard of this?
- FIFreya India
No, but I can guess. Is it Bratz, Bratz face or Bratz body portion?
- CWChris Williamson
Face, but also body to a degree. There's a video, Josh, one of the kids, actually another kid that was on my season. Wow, they really took a lot from season one. Maybe I was left out. I don't know. Um, but they... He w- she was walking away from him. They were just catching up or whatever as friends, and she was walking away from him, and he said, "Fucking hell, have you had your ass done as well?" And she went, "Yeah, I have." Uh, so, you know, there's no, there's very few bits. I mean, she was pretty enhanced the first time, but this broke the internet, uh, when, when the thing first came out. Someone sent it to me.
- FIFreya India
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And, I mean, Hannah was a playboy girl, Scouse playboy girl. For the Americans listening, Scouse is kind of like New Jersey a little bit, I guess. It's like sort of Geordie Shore, Jersey Shore-
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... type, sort of fake tan and fake lashes and, and, and stuff. And, um, she really took it to the extreme about this. And yeah, the, the internet was lit up.
- FIFreya India
So is that a BBL that she's had? Do you know?
- CWChris Williamson
She'll had a BBL.
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Another... And I mean, she had a boob job fucking e- eight years ago when we were on the show. She had a pretty big set of Scud missiles on her, and now they're like nuclear warheads. And, uh-
- FIFreya India
But that's the thing, is, is I think when you get this, the dysmorphia... Well, well, when you start to get these procedures, it's almost like you get blind to how far you're taking it. Uh, u- until, like, she might look in the mirror and not see it as extreme.
- CWChris Williamson
Almost certainly, almost certainly does. Almost certainly.
- FIFreya India
Yeah, because it's been gradual process for her. She's, you know, she's upgraded each feature one by one. Whereas, you meet her in real life and it's, like, jarring, and-
- CWChris Williamson
Well, that was the thing, that people were comparing the photo from eight years ago to the photo now.
- FIFreya India
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
But it's the, it's the question, when did you get older? When did you get fat? Or when did you get whatever? Well, one day at a time.
- 52:48 – 59:14
Should Gym Girls Be Posting Their Stretch Marks?
- CWChris Williamson
What do you think about this trend of, uh, fitness chicks or just Instagram girls uploading, "See, I've got rolls and stretch marks too?" What, what do you make of that?
- FIFreya India
Yeah. Um, well, uh, I've seen a couple of those, and they're always, like, unflattering but flattering. So it's like the most flattering version of an unflattering photo you could get. Which I think is kind of worse than just posting a load of flattering stuff, because it's like, "Oh, here's my vulnerabilities, but I'm also still using good lighting." And it's, it's not that, like, repulsive.
- CWChris Williamson
It's the bodily humble brag.
- FIFreya India
Yeah, yeah. So I think... I don't know. I still see that as kind of inauthentic sometimes, and, and actually worse in a way, because you're pretending it's your ultimate vulnerability.
- CWChris Williamson
The, the goal is laudable, right? Which is-
- FIFreya India
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... um, "Look, I am not perfect all the time. This is a photo of me posing, and this is a photo of me not posing." Uh, James Smith, my business partner on Nutonic, and Darren Cartel made a very big mess of Instagram for... Like, they were like mercenary assassins going around and finding these girls that were doing it and then doing a, a parody of it themselves with them in, like, a girl's crop top, uh, sort of posing going, "Hmm," crying-
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... at the fact that they've got, they've got rolls and stuff. But then on the, on the other side, how are you supposed to fight back against insane body standard imagery-
- FIFreya India
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... if you don't do that? If you don't try and do the, "Well, this is me in real life. This is what happens if I've had too much gluten." Or, "This is me around that time of the month." Or, "This is me-"
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"... when I'm not posing and I'm not lit and I don't have makeup on"?
- FIFreya India
Well, I think it's, it's like the mental health thing. So I think a lot of people share their mental health problems online because they think, "Oh, you know, social media is a highlight reel and everyone's pretending to be perfect, so I'm gonna show my vulnerability." You know, a lot of influencers do that. They'll be like, "Oh, here's a selfie of me crying. You know, I'm normal. You know, don't worry."But it's like, I don't think the answer to the endless perf- posting of perfection is then to start revealing your most vulnerable personal moment, especially if you're a normal young girl. I think the answer is to post less in general, and to consume less of this stuff-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- FIFreya India
...whereas I think a lot of young people now are kind of being convinced that they need to share their vulnerabilities so that their whole self is on social media, and it's kind of balanced. But I, I don't think that, you know, if you're a pre-teen or a teenager, I just would not be putting my deepest vulnerabilities online now. You know, when you don't know yourself, you don't know how you're gonna feel in the future, um, it's a similar thing.
- CWChris Williamson
What do Gen Z girls think about guys?
- FIFreya India
Um, well, there's a big gap between Gen Z girls and Gen Z guys, and I, I don't know, did you see that Financial Times... Yeah, so the Gen Z girls and Gen Z guys worldview and values definitely seem to be diverging, across-
- CWChris Williamson
What do you, what do you lay that at the feet of?
- FIFreya India
Um, a couple of things. So most of it, most of the divide in most of the countries is girls and young women shifting to the left. So guys seem to be either staying the same or becoming slightly more conservative on things like gender roles, or I think race and immigration as well. But it's young women who are, like, lurching rapidly to (laughs) becoming more progressive. Um, and so I think to explain that, to explain, like, the rise of liberal women, I think a big part of it is education, so universities leaning left, but young women way more likely to go to university than men. Men are actually-
- CWChris Williamson
But this is, this is an age group that's, for a lot of them, below the age of going to university, right?
- FIFreya India
True. So, well, yeah, I think this, most sur- surveys are looking at Gen Z men and women.
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- FIFreya India
And I think if you were to include, you know, Gen Z girls and boys, it would also be the things like social media. So for example, if you're, if you're looking at progressive, um, something progressive on social media, some social justice, um, post or something, again, the algorithm will serve you the more extreme version of that. Uh, and you can end up going from kind of like a normal liberal position to the extreme left very quickly. And obviously, the same is true of right-wing content. But it's liberal teen girls who are spending five or more hours a day on social media. So it seems to be what I think is happening is girls are kind of naturally drawn to something like the social justice movement because it's very much about compassion, it's very much about, uh, lived experiences, and I think, you know, young women are higher in empathy, they're more conformist, so we're drawn to that, and then those natural tendencies are then picked up by the algorithm, and then you're spending hours a day on social media getting that confirmed and getting it more extreme.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- FIFreya India
And guys are getting a different experience, um, and then as they grow older, going to university, getting a different experience. Guys are more likely to study STEM subjects rather than humanities, which are much less left-leaning. So it just seems to be that we're having such different experiences and it's getting to the point where our worldviews are completely different, um, and we're not even, like, inhabiting the same reality anymore.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I've got Daniel Cox, who was the dude that did the research, I've got him coming on. He's a bit of a digital ghost. I had to go through a bunch of people to, to get in touch with him, um, but I can't wait for that episode.
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I think that's gonna-
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- 59:14 – 1:06:39
How Gen-Z Girls Perceive Guys & Dating
- CWChris Williamson
Z girls, about guys, what do they think about r- relationships and dating and the importance of, of that?
- FIFreya India
Well, I think a big thing now that I've noticed is being, is Gen Z women being risk-averse around guys and around dating. Um, so for example, if you go on, like, TikTok dating advice, it's very kind of cynical, it's very negative, it's like, you know, if a guy approaches you, he's a predator, or if he kind of compliments you a lot and gives you loads of gifts, he's love-bombing you, he's an abuser. You know, the words like narcissism and red flags getting thrown around, um, and the, uh, it's honestly everywhere. Like, I saw a, a tweet recently that was vir- went viral that was like, "Oh, if you, if you meet someone and you have intense chemistry, that's a major red flag. Like you should (laughs) leave because-"
- CWChris Williamson
Why?
- FIFreya India
"... because it's like, um, a trauma signal that reminds you of your caregiver who mistreated you," or whatever. And it's got, like, thousands of likes, and it's that kind of language is so common, i- among young women talking about dating, which, like, I get, I think there are legitimate reasons to be risk-averse, so I think, you know, obviously it's much harder to date now with, in, after the sexual revolution with less kind of guardrails of custom and chivalry. And I, I do think there's reasons women are ris- risk-averse to being kind of disposed of and, you know, not having, um, a meaningful relationship follow from meeting someone. Also think, you know, we've got-... uh, you know, very high rates of divorced parents which, you know, plays into that risk aversion. Also, I think social media teaches you to be risk-averse and avoid discomfort.
- CWChris Williamson
But what, what is the reason for the risk aversion? Is it just not wanting to ever get hurt? How much of this-
- FIFreya India
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... is just an avoidance of any discomfort?
- FIFreya India
Yeah, so basically, all of these things are creating this absolute terror of getting hurt. So I think a lot of the therapy speak and the, kind of, feminist language is a cl- is cloaking this deep fear of vulnerability. Um, you know, I think Gen Z grew up with this kind of message that anything with risk is a threat, to be avoided, you know, whether that's through social media, whether that's family structure, whether it was, you know, the childhoods we had. You know, our childhoods were very much like avoid risk, you know, prioritize health and safety and regulations, you know, simulating it all online rather than actually engaging in risk-taking behavior. And I think that plays out all the time in, in Gen Z's life. But a, a big, you know, part of that is relationships because they come with a high level of risk. And I, I don't think some Gen Z people can kind of... It's almost like we've been convinced that's not a part of life, that you can actually get away with a life that avoids risk and, you know, uncomfortable emotions. Um, but you can't. And so, it- it's actually, you know, really tragic because it puts us on a path to miss out on really meaningful things. So I think a lot of the, kind of, child-free TikTok stuff that everyone makes fun of and the, you know, less desire among Gen Z to have children can be explained by this fear of discomfort and risk aversion. You know, there's like a deep terror of things going wrong, um, which, you know, you go on, like, "Childfree TikTok" as well, it's all about discomfort and it's all about-
- CWChris Williamson
What is that for the people that don't know?
- FIFreya India
So, um, people who've made the decision not to have children will post on like, uh, DINK, which is like double income, no kids. So they'll post like their luxury lifestyles that they can afford, and then they'll post their kind of childfree days and what they get up to and everything. Um, but there's also among that, there's a lot of young women especially talking about, uh, kind of the risks and discomfort that comes with having children, and trying to warn other young women and girls not to have children. So for example, there's a girl who does a free birth control series on TikTok, where she basically lists like every possible risk that could go wrong with pregnancy or children to kind of tell-
- CWChris Williamson
Was that the girl with the list?
- FIFreya India
No, so that's another one. (laughs) So then there's another-
- CWChris Williamson
What's this one?
- FIFreya India
So this is just a girl, she, she does like a, um, helpful birth control series to remind you why you shouldn't have children, and she would just put clips of, like, children screaming and throwing up and destroying stuff, and like health scares-
- CWChris Williamson
Right, okay. This is like a cultural intervention type...
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... a lifestyle, a lifestyle warning?
- FIFreya India
Yeah, but I think the first-
- CWChris Williamson
She doesn't have kids so she's...
- FIFreya India
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Right, okay.
- FIFreya India
Yeah. And then I think the first person to do that was this woman who created The List, which is like a crowdsourced list of reasons not to have children.
- CWChris Williamson
I think it was 350 reasons not to have-
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... not to have kids, and it was a page and a half. And she printed them out, so it's, you know, like nine pages, 10 pages or something-
- FIFreya India
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... of reasons not to. And I think the, the reasons to amounted to a page of A4. But in the reasons not to have kids was, um, "Can't wear cute heels anymore, will miss br- miss brunch with the girls, literal parasite living inside of your body."
- FIFreya India
Yeah. Yeah. Uh, plus every, every kind of risk or health scare that could possibly go wrong is like listed on it. So if, like everything from starting with, you know, losing sleep and, you know, having like a stomach ache or a headache to the absolute worst case scenario risk that could happen. And you kind of read it and you're like, "God, this is like the most meaningful thing a human can do." You know, it, it's the fundamental human instinct. Not, not to say that everyone should have children, but when you see, you know, so many young people convinced that life should be fun and easy all the time, and that anything that comes with this level of risk is not worth it, I think that's a symptom of like something extremely sinister, which is, which is, you know, Gen Z are suffering from because they're on a path to miss out on the most meaningful things because of it out of fear.
- CWChris Williamson
It's the prioritization of immediate emotional comfort over long-term flourishing. It's the avoidance of risk, but also change because change is associated with risk.
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- 1:06:39 – 1:15:54
Belief That Careers Provide More Meaning Than Family
- CWChris Williamson
This is interesting. Um-When asked what it takes to lead a fulfilling life, the public prioritizes job satisfaction and friendship over marriage and parenthood. 71% of all adults say having a job or career they enjoy is extremely or very important for people to live a fulfilling life, and 61% say having close friends is equally important. Only about one in four adults say having children, or 23% being married, is extremely or very important to- in order to live a fulfilling life. A third say each of these is somewhat important, and 42% and 44% say having children or being married is not too or not at all important. Having a lot of money is viewed as extremely or very important for a fulfilling life. Women place a little more importance on job/career enjoyment than men do, 74% versus 69%. At the same time, men place somewhat more importance on marriage and having children, 28% of men compared with 18% of women say being married is extremely or very important for a fulfilling life. Similarly, 29% of men versus 22% of women say the same about having children. And that was Pew Research that literally came out three months ago. The interesting-
- FIFreya India
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... take online was, "Having a great job is zero sum, only one person can be the best salesperson, but hypothetically, everyone can have a happy marriage and family."
- FIFreya India
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, again, that's the- I would put that down to the, uh, lack of, you know, role models, again, for young women who are sh- or who are showing that different lifestyle of, you know, family and children. Um, you know, if you look at the top kind of pop culture stars that Gen Z women are looking up to and loving, they're all living a similar lifestyle because they're in that, um, world where their ultimate goal is money and, you know, fame and, um, all of these values that, you know, are kind of incompatible with children. They make- you know, children get in the way of that.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- FIFreya India
They're not seeing role models whose ultimate values are family or, uh, you know, legacy or anything like that. So it- it's just not being translated to them.
- CWChris Williamson
I wonder what will happen if Taylor Swift gets pregnant. Like, I- I- I- I-
- FIFreya India
Maybe it will be a book. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... fucking hesitate to use Taylor Swift as the linchpin for female culture, but she has captured culture in a way that I- you know, I don't think really anybody else has. And something tells me that Travis Kelce, he's a bearded beer drinker. I mean, he's also sponsored by Pfizer, uh, and maybe paid for by George Soros. But he is a pretty, like, old school sweary guy. Him and his brother-
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... you know, behave in that kind of a manner. Something tells me that he probably intends on having a family at some point. And if you've got the greatest or one of the greatest NFL players ever, their genes, plus perhaps one of the greatest female pop stars, it's like, "Make some kids, come on."
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But if that- if that happens, do you remember when Adele lost weight and all-
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... of the body positivity people were like, "Y- y- y- you betrayed us-"
- FIFreya India
Heart rate.
- CWChris Williamson
"... and blah, blah, blah." I wonder how many people will say- you know, they're all happy for the fact that Taylor Swift's in a relationship.
- FIFreya India
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
But she is still able to do the dink role model-
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... thing, but if she decides to start having a family, I wonder how much of that would change. And then look at it the other way, I mean, Alex Cooper should have been called to account so fucking hard. She should have got dragged so fucking hard on the internet for extolling the virtues of casual sex and no frills attached and sleep with him and don't catch feels and here's how to-
- FIFreya India
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... the glug glug f- four thousand or whatever this, like, good blowjob episode that was episode number three of her podcast or something else. Like, extolling the virtues of casual sex, and then for the final three years of the podcast, secretly having a relationship with a guy that she was totally besotted and in love with. And then to kind of like- like Bruce Wayne saying that he's Batman, go-
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... "I'm engaged, and the engagement-"
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"... was so cute and there was a rose garden and he got down on one knee and he'd asked my dad-"
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"... and he'd done all of this other stuff." And it goes, yo, how big is the wake of broken girls that allowed themselves to be used by guys-
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- 1:15:54 – 1:23:16
Do We Actually Live in a Hookup Culture?
- FIFreya India
- CWChris Williamson
How is... or why is it the case that sex and dating are down if hookup culture is so prominent?
- FIFreya India
Yeah, this is interesting. I think, I think it seems to be that, uh, when people are having sex, it's more often casual sex. But in general, Gen Z are having less sex compared to previous generations at the same age. But if you talk to young people about their sexual experiences, they'll usually typically be, like, a hookup or something like that. Um, but I think a lot of what Gen Z are in now is, like, situationships. So they're in, like, this gray area where they seem to be hooking up, and there's no commitment. There's no relationship out of it. So the people who are having sex, uh, like, don't seem to be in committed relationships like previous generations were. They're in this kind of weird stage where you're not exclusive, but you're having sex. And I, I think that is, like, a big cause of, um, anxiety and relationship problems is there, there doesn't seem to be boundaries anymore with that.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. And why is that the case? What, what is the underlying driver that's, uh, like, encouraging both sex positivity and risk aversion at the same time? Like, I, I, I don't understand what-
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... what the current is.
- FIFreya India
Well, there, there seems to be this paradox in so many areas of young women's lives. So like you said, there's the risk aversion and the sex positivity. Then there's also the, you know, self-love and body positivity and the body dysmorphia and the eating disorders. Then there's also like, you know, "I'm a feminist, um, empowered woman who doesn't care, but also I have crippling anxiety and depression." (laughs) And there seems to be so many, like, paradoxes going on, and I, I think it's because a lot of the narratives are like a front for how we're actually feeling, like a defense mechanism. So there's a lot of people talking about sex positivity and how casual sex is empowering, but there's also a lot of people saying they, they're stuck in situationships. They can't get a guy to commit. They don't wanna commit. You know, they're having all kinds of doubts and thinking of all kinds of red flags of reasons not to commit. So I think, like, the louder we get about sex positivity, the louder we get about anything really in modern life, it seems to be that deep down, the opposite is true. There's real pain.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- FIFreya India
There's real confusion. (laughs) Um, but yeah, it seems to be a way of dealing with it.
- CWChris Williamson
There's definitely... Th- the paradoxes, I think, exist because people are performing this performative empathy, toxic compassion thing-
- FIFreya India
(coughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... causes...... where you want to thread the needle to intersect two Venn diagrams sometimes, right? Like, "I don't want to kink shame, and women can have sex the same as men do," and also like, "I, uh, you should be afraid of all of the things that exist on the internet and, uh, all of the things that can happen in real life, and here's red flags because he's come up to you in the gym." Like that-
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... sometimes that needle gets threaded between the two, because people aren't actually doing the sense-making for themselves, they're outsourcing it to people on the internet. And this person over here, the guys shouldn't approach girls in the gym person, also... That, that's one cohort, "Okay, I believe that thing-
- FIFreya India
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"... even if I don't believe that thing, I think that thing or I've seen that thing." And then you've got the other side which is the, uh, "Don't kink shame me. You can sleep with them and not catch feels. I listen to Alex Cooper." And, uh, you know, those things come together.
- FIFreya India
Yeah, yeah. No, it's true, and I think it's one of those things where people... It's like they've not thought through the consequences of it. So th- there'll be... For example, there's, like, um, a lot of feminists who push kind of commodifying yourself and selling yourself online as, as fun and, like, risk-free and empowering, but then if they saw, like, a 13-year-old copying that behavior, they would be absolutely horrified. Um, s- so they know that they, you know, when they're saying it's fun and risk-free and there's nothing wrong with it, they know that, like, there is something about it that you shouldn't be sharing with young girls without warnings of the risks and the dangers. Um, but they continue to do it and sell it that way. Uh, so I think a lot of the time what people are pushing and celebrating, they know there's dark sides to it or they know there's dangers, but they keep pushing and celebrating it to kind of justify that, and it's like a defense mechanism.
- CWChris Williamson
Talk to me about the glamorizing of divorce.
- FIFreya India
Yeah, so (laughs) um, I first started writing about that when I saw, uh... So Adele got divorced, and it was like a big-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, did she? I thought i- i- in my world, she'd only just got married.
- FIFreya India
No, she got... She was, uh, married very young and she got divorced. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- FIFreya India
And she made it kind of like her personal brand, so, like, she had a... I'm pretty sure she was selling, like, divorced merchandise at her concerts, uh... (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
What does that consist of?
- FIFreya India
I think it was necklaces saying "Divorced," um, I'm pretty sure. And sh- her catchphrase was like, "Divorced, babe," or something. And, uh, to be fair to her, like, a lot of fans were pushing it as well, like, it was her divorce album, so they were, like, loving it. Um, and I'd noticed as well, like, mainstream magazines and publications also glamorizing divorce. So, like, The New York Times called it "a radical act of self-love," um, and, uh, Valen- Vogue was saying, "This Valentine's Day, let's, like, celebrate divorce." (laughs) Um, and, yeah, uh, well, The Guardian was talking about the joy of divorce parties. They spoke about it recently as well, um-
- CWChris Williamson
The joy of divorce parties?
- FIFreya India
Yeah, so to celebrate your divorce with your loved ones. Um, so I'd seen all of this stuff in culture that was not just kind of saying, you know, "Don't shame people for getting divorced," it was saying like, "Let's actively celebrate it." And I think it's the same thing again, it's like a defense mechanism, because we all know intuitively and through the data that, you know, divorce is devastating for children and families, by almost every metric. And yet, to kind of deal with that, again, we're getting louder and louder about the joys of divorce and how it's self-love and it's empowering. And I think the only way to explain that is it's- it's like a topic that's so close to home, that's so, like, difficult to confront, that the only way to handle it is to kind of wrap it up in this language and pretend that, you know, we're all celebrating it. Um, but I've seen that so much, and it's also interesting that it's never mentioned as, like, a factor in Gen Z's mental health. Uh, family breakdown is just... If you look at the academic essays, if you look at mainstream, you know, uh, media commentators trying to figure it out, it's never divorce, it's never... You know, maybe this, there could be a part to play that, you know, one in three Gen Z see their parents split by the time they're 16 in the UK. That's never mentioned. It's always, again, the climate crisis or the housing ladder or whatever it is.
- 1:23:16 – 1:31:26
Impact of Broken Families on Gen-Z
- CWChris Williamson
How much of a big role do you think, or h- how instrumental are broken families and single-parent households? Uh, how much of Gen Z's problems are downstream from that?
- FIFreya India
Um, well, I would say, I would say a lot of Gen Z struggle because of that, bec- because, you know, we know from, um, research that having divorced parents means that you're more likely to suffer from anxiety, from depression, from eating disorders, self-harm. You know, girls especially seem to have these, like, internalizing behaviors when they go through trauma, like, uh, family breakdown, so they'll very often get very anxious and withdraw inwards and kind of punish themselves through things like eating disorders or self-harm, which we're seeing, like, en masse now. Um, so it's not to say that I think family breakdown causes all of Gen Z's mental health problems, but I think everything Gen Z is struggling with is made worse by family breakdown. So, for example, if you're... Like, I think social media's terrible for young girls, but I would say it's probably worse if you don't have a family to ground you and you're putting more of your self-worth into these platforms and you're depending on strangers online for that emotional validation that you're not getting from both parents. Same with things like... I'm sure there are some Gen Z who are terrified of climate change, but I'm pretty sure if you don't have a stable family around you and, like, you know, a place to develop-... that resilience and those healthier coping strategies, then you're gonna be even more afraid of climate change. So the way I see it is just that family breakdown will be exacerbating all of these problems and not giving girls and boys that kind of grounding to be more resilient to these things.
Episode duration: 1:35:37
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