When Feminism Stopped Being About Women - Freya India

Chris Williamson 0:00 Is Gen Z in a mental health crisis?

Freya India 0:03 Yes. Yeah. (laughs) Um, basically, since the early 2010s, our mental health has just tanked, um, especially for girls. So we started to see these spikes in anxiety and depression, things like eating disorders, um, but also rise in self-harm and suicide. So for example, in the US between 2012 and 2019, the suicide rate for white middle-aged men increased by 3%. But for girls aged between 12 and 14, it increased by 138%. And the- the statistics on self-harm are equally as horrific. So something happened around 2012 that is particularly affecting girls, but a- as a whole is affecting the entirety of Gen Z.

Chris Williamson 0:50 How much of this is laid at the feet of social media do you think?

Freya India 0:53 Well, I would say a lot, but obviously there's- you know, it's debatable. So some studies show like a negligible impact of social media, others show that it's terrible. Um, but the thing is with those is some of the studies kind of lump in screen time with social media. So they'll say like, you know, "Screen time is bad for you," but that could be texting friends, that could be scrolling through Instagram. So they're kind of unreliable. But I think the most compelling bit of evidence is the timeline, so mental health started to decline in the early 2010s. The iPhone came out in 2007, Instagram came out in 2010, editing apps started to come out around 2013. Um, and also the fact that it's particularly affecting girls. We know that girls spend a lot more time on social media. All the other explanations don't really seem to add up when it comes to why it would be girls, so things like people say the housing ladder or the economy or the climate crisis, and none of them quite fit that explanation apart from social media for me anyway.

Chris Williamson 1:56 Yeah, why is it that women would be particularly concerned about the housing crisis or about the future-

Freya India 2:00 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 2:00 ... temperature or the amount of carbon in the atmosphere? What is it that's causing, beyond just the excessive use of social media, what's the- what's the type of use of social media that's causing this, uh, disparate effect on girls?

Freya India 2:19 Yeah, well, I think there's- there's different aspects to it. So there's how girls are using social media, so things like obviously social comparison, comparing yourself to everybody and comparing your productivity and your looks and your lifestyle to everyone all the time, which is terrible for mental health. So there's that, but then there's also how social media enables companies to have close access to girls. So the targeted advertising, um, and the ability to monitor them, to collect data, and to sell that data to platforms who then bombard them with advertisements. Um, so I think a big part of this is the industries that are now able to follow girls around and kind of inundate them. It's an onslaught of advertising, and it's, you know, specific to that young girl's insecurities or vulnerabilities. So, you know, if a girl was anxious about how she looks, she'll get bombarded with beauty companies who are trying to sell her fixes to her specific worries. So it's kind of both at the same time. It's how they're spending their time on social media, but also how companies are utilizing that to exploit them for profit.

Chris Williamson 3:27 Yeah, dig into that. What- what are the companies that are targeting monetizing mental distress of girls online? How are they doing this?

Freya India 3:37 So the- the way I would phrase it is I would, like, firstly say that, you know, to have some, like, adolescent angst and turmoil when you're young is normal, especially for, like, adolescent girls. So we know that adolescent girls are more anxious, more risk-averse, more prone to perfectionism than boys at the same age. So I think all of that's pretty normal, and I think every woman would say she's been through, you know, body image issues or whatever. But I think what's happening now is companies are able to exploit those vulnerabilities and- and target them. So for example, I would say it's completely normal for a girl to worry about how she looks, you know, everyone will experience that, but it's not normal to have to deal with that in a world of Instagram influencers and TikTok filters and editing apps. At the same time, it's probably normal to worry about your feelings, to feel a bit anxious, but now girls are having to contend with that in a world of therapy culture and ads for ADHD medication and quizzes saying, like, "You might be autistic." Um, and other things as well, like, you know, insecurities in relationships, jealousy, paranoia. I think that's all normal when you're young, but dealing with that in a world of dating apps and hookup culture and online porn, it becomes unmanageable. So I think what's happening is those- all kinds of industries, so the beauty industry, what I would call the therapy industry, the pharmaceutical industry, social media companies, are all going after these age-old feelings and kind of ramping them up to a degree that I think the average girl can't cope with.

Chris Williamson 5:13 Yeah, it's very interesting, uh, you know, online therapy companies in some ways... And I- I'm a huge proponent of therapy, I'm using it myself in Austin, in-person talk therapy, and I never thought about the dangers of having immediate 24/7 access over the internet to somebody that... What- what- what is the problem with that? Shouldn't people be able to talk about their feelings with someone who's a qualified professional at all times? Why is that- why is there a danger behind that?

Freya India 5:47 Yeah, well, so that's the thing now, it's called unlimited messaging therapy. So it's what most of these platforms are like BetterHelp, Talkspace, that's what they're advertising. Um, and the way they phrase it, so for example, Talkspace will say, you know, "Talking to a therapist is like texting with a trusted friend," or something. BetterHelp will say-... you know, pay an influencer to say, "Oh, you know, it's like talking to a bestie." And that the problem with... There's a couple of problems with that. The first is that, you know, being able to message a therapist 24/7 from your room means that you're not developing resilience to deal with things. So if you're socially anxious, you're still in your room, you're still on your phone. Um, and, you know, if you're struggling with something, if you feel an uncomfortable emotion, you're able to just get that instant gratification and be soothed, which is the worst thing for anxiety. (laughs) Um, so, so that's bad, but then it's also I feel like these companies push this kind of therapy culture, which is this, this kind of idea that you can have perfect mental health. So you can... any negative emotion you feel is diagnosable and solvable through their service, and I think that puts pressure on Gen Z. I think, you know, there's pressure from social media companies to have this perfect life. There's pressure from beauty companies to have a perfect face. Then you have pressure from therapy companies to have, like, this perfect soul that never experiences negative emotions. Like, if you look at the advertising, the advertising is like, "If you, if you ever feel worried, if you ever have anxiety, you know, connect with a therapist now." Which, you know, it's, it's so bad for resilience, but it's also so obvious why they're doing that. Because if you can convince a generation that, you know, they can- if they pay enough, they can remove those negative emotions, then there's nothing more profitable than that.

Chris Williamson 7:46 Yeah. You've said, uh, "It's the marketization and medicalization of normal distress. A cultural emphasis on treating every emotion we feel as diagnosable and solvable with consumption is doing so much psychological damage."

Freya India 8:00 Yeah. So I think, you know, two things can be true. There can be a mental health crisis where there's girls that are severely mentally ill, but there can also be this growing population of girls who are just anxious and stressed, and they're being convinced to see their behavior in ways that suit these therapy companies and these drug companies. And I think very often, ironically, it makes them feel mentally ill.

Chris Williamson 8:26 What are hot girl pills?

Freya India 8:28 (laughs) Um, so hot girl pills are SSRIs or antidepressants. Um, it's a way that Gen Z girls seem to describe their antidepressants on TikTok. There's also silly girl pills. Um, there's also all kinds of, like, mental health merchandise with pills on them. There's Prozac pillows, there's antidepressant phone cases. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 8:55 (laughs)

Freya India 8:55 I could go on. There's a common phrase now, like, "Hot girls take Lexapro," uh, "Sexy girls take Sertraline," all kinds of stuff like that. So not only is there kind of the normalization of these mental health diagnoses, but the absolute glamorization of them now.

Chris Williamson 9:20 How much of this is talked about in person, do you think? Because obviously on the internet, you select for-

Freya India 9:28 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 9:28 ... a very particular type of, uh, communication, a very particular type of person. Some insane percentage of people on Twitter just lurk and never tweet-

Freya India 9:36 Right.

Chris Williamson 9:36 ... or essentially never tweet. You know, 90% of the content is created by 3% of the users, or something along those lines.

Freya India 9:43 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:43 Um, I wonder what the in-person discussions have... Online discussions about SSRIs and mental health and hot girls have IBS or whatever the new trend is-

Freya India 9:56 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 9:57 ... is that showing up IRL as well?

Freya India 10:00 Well, the thing is... So sometimes I get criticism where people will say, "Oh, you know, this is- you're, you're taking TikToks or you're talking about what's on Twitter." But it's like, Gen Z in the UK is spending 10.6 hours a day on screens, I think, uh, is the average. Girls... So there was a new, um, study recently saying Gen Z are spending two hours a day o- on TikTok alone. Um, girls are making up the majority of that. So 57% of TikTok users are female. Um, I think a third are under 14. And so when people say, "Oh, you know, this is just a social media thing. I don't see this in real life," it's like, this is real life for a lot of young people. This is the majority of their day. This is what's forming their assumptions about themselves and the world. You know, that distinction has gone. Um, and so I think... I don't hear it as much in real life, but, you know, I do think if you took a 12-year-old's day and you took, you know, the time she's spending talking in real life to friends and then the amount of time she's passively scrolling through Instagram and TikTok, I think those trends really matter and shape her worldview.

Chris Williamson 11:10 Mm-hmm. We were in Dubai four... three years ago and... escaping lockdown, and, um, we were in Mr. Miyagi's, which is just a, like, famous popular bar on the Marina. And George, who's been on the show, was talking to a 22-year-old, 23-year-old girl that lives in Dubai and didn't have much to do and... I can't re- I can't remember what her job was, uh, or maybe she was in school or something. And he said, "Oh, can I just have a look at your screen time?" So, went in and she didn't even know... I don't think she was aware of, of... that there was, uh, something tracking. And that day, she'd spent eight hours on TikTok. That one day-

Freya India 11:48 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:48 ... she'd spent eight hours-

Freya India 11:50 On TikTok?

Chris Williamson 11:50 On TikTok. Eight hours in a single day on TikTok.

Freya India 11:53 Mm-hmm. Yeah. So that's real life then.

Chris Williamson 11:57 But that... Yeah, it's-

Freya India 11:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:58 ... it's a full-time job. It's probably more than the amount of sleep that she'd gotten-

Freya India 12:04 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:04 ... uh, which is wild. And I think that you're right, you know.If, during a period of your life that's so super formative, so much of the things that you're exposed to are through the internet-

Freya India 12:18 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:18 ... talking about, "That's just what you see online," is a presumption from people who assume that there is a life outside of being online.

Freya India 12:26 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 12:27 Like, it's a misunderstanding of how the day is portioned out between-

Freya India 12:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 12:33 ... keyboard and non-keyboard.

Freya India 12:35 I, I think that about a lot of things. Like, I think it about, say, like, beauty trends. Some people will be like, "Oh, I d- I don't understand why girls are having this plastic s- women are having this plastic surgery, and they look so weird in real life." And it's like, they don't... They're not doing it for real life, they're doing it for social media very often, and for how they look on camera. And so, I think there's a lot of trends that people find confusing about Gen Z. Whereas if you start to think, actually, there's no distinction between social media and the real world anymore, they start to make a bit more sense.

Chris Williamson 13:07 Yes. If it's an online-first existence-

Freya India 13:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:11 ... everything kind of opens up from there. Th- there is no distinction between what you're seeing on the internet... Or maybe even the internet is more true than the real world.

Freya India 13:20 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:21 That this is, this is where, "No, I don't need to listen to Mum and Dad. No, I don't need to listen to what's happening on the news. No, I don't-"

Freya India 13:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:27 "... need to listen to the whatever. This is my source, this is my oracle and my source of, of insight, uh-"

Freya India 13:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:35 "... about how I should behave, about how other people behave." Uh, I had this idea, um, a while ago. I've not... I've never talked about this before, actually, 'cause I just thought it would get me in too much shit, but I will at some point. Uh, recursive red pill learning. So, uh, one of the problems with some areas of the manosphere is that a lot of the guys go to this type of content as a safe haven from having to interact with things in the real world.

Freya India 14:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 14:07 Uh, and monk mode, I've had super amounts of success with monk mode in my own life. I'm, I'm, I'm big into that. But done to the extreme, it can end up, if all of your information comes from other people within your echo chamber, it skews your opinion of what's happening in the real world-

Freya India 14:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 14:22 And this recursive red pill learning thing was... The most egregious stories on the internet are the ones that get the most exposure because they're the most outlandish and crazy.

Freya India 14:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 14:32 Then that crazy, misrepresentative, unrepresentative story gets used as a signal of what actually happens in the real world by everybody else-

Freya India 14:43 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 14:44 Then that forms the base of their beliefs, and then that gets re-spun up into the sort of things that they're looking for. And you get this recursive sort of self-

Freya India 14:52 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 14:52 ... learning, AI fucking ChatGPT from hell that is always looking for the most caricatured, most outlandish stories.

Freya India 15:03 Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's a similar thing that I've written about, so I called it, like, uh, the, the algorithmic conveyor belt that children are on, which is basically to say that every child is on their own conveyor belt on social media, depending on whatever, say, interest or insecurity or vulnerability they have. And whatever it is, they will get pushed to the extreme endpoint of that. So for example, if you're worried about your looks, you'll start with makeup tutorials, which will then gradually become, uh, cosmetic surgeries, which will then become, you know, Botox near you on TikTok ads. Same with things like, uh, gender identity. You might start questioning that, and then you see videos saying, well, you know, being tired is a symptom of gender dysphoria or something.

Chris Williamson 15:51 (laughs)

Freya India 15:52 And then you see... Which is a real TikTok, obviously. And then, you see one which is, like, glamorizing the surgery, when another child might be worrying about their mental health, and then they go on the conveyor belt and end up taking medication for, um, you know, something they, they don't actually have a diagnosis for. And the, the theory of it is, you know, like, so many things in Gen Z feel really extreme. Like, the way we talk about mental health, the way we talk about sexuality, the way we talk about politics. Everything's f- feels very extreme, and I think that's because each child is getting pushed to the extreme of whatever they're interested in. And that explains, you know, when some parents say, "Oh, you know, my child's fine. They're not looking at, um, you know, gender identity stuff. They'd never get into this mental health space." And it's like, no, they're on their own path. And whatever it is, the algorithm will learn more about them, and the content will get more extreme to boost engagement.

Chris Williamson 16:50 It's this balance between normalizing and glamorizing mental health issues, I think.

Freya India 16:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:57 You know, 'cause... How old are you?

Freya India 17:00 24.

Chris Williamson 17:00 Okay. So, you must be the top end, you must be-

Freya India 17:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:05 ... the older end of Gen Z, right?

Freya India 17:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:07 The bridge straddling that and Millennial. Um, there was a period, I think, probably about five years ago or so. Uh, what was it? It's Okay To Talk?

Freya India 17:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:17 That was the mental health campaign in the UK. Do you remember?

Freya India 17:20 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:20 And I always had a problem with that. Mental health is something I'm so... I'm super passionate about, because it was always a, uh, a difficulty for me in my 20s. And I hated the It's Okay To Talk thing, because I understood what it was trying to do was say, "We must literally normalize the, uh, topic of mental health as something which is discussed by typical people, from friends-"

Freya India 17:45 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:45 "... to friends." But I was like, "It's not just..." Like, and what? Like, and what after that?

Freya India 17:50 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:50 What else needs to be done? I think we have moved way beyond normalizing the conversation about mental health. Now, there's certain sub-groups.

Freya India 17:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:58 My da- my dad, for instance. I imagine that him and his friends, you know, in their 60s, probably could do with a little bit more of a push and a poke to do that.

Freya India 18:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 18:07 They had the Men's Sheds initiative in Australia, which was very good at this, men talking shoulder to shoulder, whereas women are talking face-to-face. But it's almost like the...It's like a badge of honor or a rite of passage for certain sub-groups, especially in Gen Z, to talk, uh, the hot girls have IBS. Like, your gut problems are something-

Freya India 18:29 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 18:29 ... that you should be wearing front and center, you know, like, @IBShottie-

Freya India 18:35 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 18:35 ... or whatever, on TikTok, probably exists. You know, it ... And this links in, I suppose, to something else that you've spoken about, and I had a huge conversation with Mary Harrington about, which is the danger of showing the entirety of your life on the internet.

Freya India 18:50 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 18:51 What's your perspective on that?

Freya India 18:53 Yeah, well I feel that especially with mental health issues. Like, the amount of, like you said, the amount of campaigns saying, "We need to open up, we need to talk, you need to share your problems, share them on social media." So, there's influencers who start hashtags like, there's this guy, Dr. Alex Shaw, he was on Love Island, um-

Chris Williamson 19:11 I remember Dr. Alex, yes.

Freya India 19:13 Yeah. So he started a campaign called Post Your Pill, which is to encourage young fans to post their mental health medication and talk about it. And he's kind of urging them, you know, "Please join in, because you need to fight the stigma, you need to join part of the conversation." And firstly, I don't think we should be telling young people that it's their duty or it's kind of, you know, they should be part of fighting the stigma, but-

Chris Williamson 19:38 That it's noble for you-

Freya India 19:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 19:40 ... to post about your pharmaceutical intervention that may have predatorily been pushed on you by-

Freya India 19:47 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 19:47 ... an Instagram ad and a TikTok algorithm that showed that you didn't actually need the thing that you thought you needed.

Freya India 19:52 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 19:52 What a fucking idiot.

Freya India 19:54 Yeah, well I'm thinking, like, surely ... I, I don't know if ... He must have good intent. He must think that this is-

Chris Williamson 20:01 Wasn't he, he's the government's adv-

Freya India 20:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 20:06 ... uh, f- what was he? What is he?

Freya India 20:07 He's the, like, uh, mental health advisor or something, for the government.

Chris Williamson 20:10 He's a fucking tit, that's what he is.

Freya India 20:12 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 20:13 (laughs)

Freya India 20:13 Well, this campaign is just, to me, I find it so irresponsible because, you know, his fans are like probably pre-teens and teens. And if you go on the hashtag they're all kind of listing out their mental health problems, sharing their pills. And I'm thinking, also, at that age, you just, you don't know where you're gonna be in, say, five, ten years time. You might not want that out there. You know, once you post something, it ca- it, especially on TikTok, it can stay there. And I think there's a lot of young people now who think it's kind of, you know, it's a good, it's noble and it's brave to post their mental health problems. But what if you get over your social anxiety, and in five years you want people to see you as confident but you made it your whole brand and you posted it all over TikTok? You know, I just think that a lot of people will grow up and realize that maybe this is not the place to be sharing it, and that these influencers were very irresponsible to be pushing this on young people. And to be kind of framing it as activism, like it's their duty.

Chris Williamson 21:16 This desire of everybody on the internet to have a cause to fight for, to be some white knight-

Freya India 21:26 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 21:26 ... flaming sword, performative empathy, toxic compassion person, is so perverse because it's, it's causing people to find issues where there are none so that they can be the paragon that's fighting the power, you know, that, that's-

Freya India 21:43 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:43 ... spea- speaking truth forward. "I am here for you, people who don't feel like their SSRI medication is sufficiently public." Like, who's got-

Freya India 21:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 21:54 ... that problem? Who's got that-

Freya India 21:55 I know ... I, I'm looking at like, antidepressant prescriptions. Uh, like for example, I think it's one in three teenagers in the UK have been prescribed antidepressants. Um, and I'm pretty sure between, something like between 2015 and 2021, the number of antidepressant prescriptions for children age four to 12 has increased by over 40%. So these are-

Chris Williamson 22:20 I bet it's more in the US as well.

Freya India 22:23 Yeah, yeah, way more. Um, and so, and you've got like kids putting their mental health medication and diagnosis in their Twitter bios.

Chris Williamson 22:32 (laughs)

Freya India 22:32 So you've got young (laughs) , you know, young people putting them on their Tinder profiles. Like, you can't say it's stigma anymore, that's the wrong context.

Chris Williamson 22:40 Yeah.

Freya India 22:40 Especially for things like anxiety and, and depression, autism, ADHD. You know, I'm sure there's areas of it that are stigmatized, but the way they talk about it, the way these campaigns talk about it, it's as if what it's 10 years ago.

Chris Williamson 22:55 Yeah.

Freya India 22:56 It's like, the context is completely different now. Um-

Chris Williamson 22:59 Right. Yeah.

Freya India 23:00 But there-

Chris Williamson 23:00 But it's such a, it's such an easy narrative. It's, uh, s-

Freya India 23:03 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 23:03 ... very simple to understand, right? "We need to normalize the conversation around this." You know?

Freya India 23:09 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 23:09 It's, it's the same as ... If, if somebody has one answer to every question, that's because the demand for answers outstrips their ability to supply them, so they just retrofit the one answer they have-

Freya India 23:23 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 23:24 ... to everything. All right. What about, what, what are the other things, what, this trend of people documenting their lives on the internet? What other ridiculous things have people been documenting?

Freya India 23:35 Well, the most ridiculous, so I wrote recently, like, ranted about this. But the, the thing that's really getting to me recently is like, the intimate personal moments. So, meaningful things that happen in your life, like once or twice, never again. People are spending that time filming them and recording them for social media. Uh, like ordinary people, I'm not just talking about influencers, I'm talking about this pressure to, to capture everything and share it. So I did like a Substack post where I was like looking through some of these TikToks, f- so it, influencers are the worst examples, so theirs are the, the most crazy. But there's like one where this woman has just given birth, and, um, her family come in to view the baby, all holding their phones-... filming as they come in the door, and then looking at the child through the screen rather than at the actual child. (laughs) And that's not the most dystopian thing. The most dystopian thing were the normal young people, like, quote-tweeting this really dystopian video saying, like, "There's nothing wrong with it." You know, "They're just trying to remember the moment." And if you take yourself out and look at it, it's so dystopian, and it's just so weird that we, we come up with, you know, justifications for something really surreal like that. And there's that vi- Did you see the video of Paris on New Year's Eve?

Chris Williamson 25:00 Yes. Where the biggest light show were people phone screens-

Freya India 25:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:05 ... on the...

Freya India 25:05 Everyone. But people justifying that, saying, you know, they wanna remember the fireworks. And I just think-

Chris Williamson 25:12 Like memories don't exist without-

Freya India 25:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:15 You've traveled all the way to Paris, you're about to see the countdown. I, I-

Freya India 25:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:19 ... understand. It's, it's strange because things that are really impressive are the things you want to take photos of because they're impressive. But because they're impressive, they're going to stick in your memory more, so you don't actually-

Freya India 25:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:28 ... need to take the photos. Now, it's different. If you're taking a selfie, like, that's ha-

Freya India 25:32 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 25:32 Like, you don't see yourself.

Freya India 25:34 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:34 Or, you know, there's something special about that. (sighs) I don't know. I, that, I really struggle with this. I had a, I encountered an issue, uh, that I realized about two years ago. I dissociated any sort of posting, uh, any sort of photo-taking as super cringe because-

Freya India 25:55 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 25:55 ... I thought, "Classic influencer dickhead. Here he is, you know, can't-

Freya India 26:00 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 26:00 ... even go out for dinner without taking a photo of the food." But I realized that almost all of the photos I was taking weren't getting posted on social media.

Freya India 26:07 Yes.

Chris Williamson 26:08 They were for me. They were for me. I was sending them to, uh, my mum or I was sending them to friends. I was doing whatever. Like, I just wanted that. And it wasn't big shit. It was usually small things on the way. Uh, the-

Freya India 26:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 26:22 ... taxi, the $30 10-minute taxi ride I got in Honduras, uh, back here. I took a photo of the guy's, the driver's seat, because he had this crazy... He'd fixed his seat. Obviously, little bit of a developing country in some ways. And, uh, I was like, "That's fucking cool."

Freya India 26:38 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 26:38 Like, I just wanted to remember, "Oh, God, do you remember when you were in Honduras and that guy's seat was fixed with a tennis racquet?" Like, "That's cool."

Freya India 26:45 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:46 Um, but yeah, I... And especially if there's news cameras there. Th- there's-

Freya India 26:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:51 ... so much footage of the things that many people take photos of, like that Paris thing. If you want to remember it, there's someone with an 8K-

Freya India 26:58 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:58 ... telescopic zoom that you could probably use.

Freya India 27:01 Yeah, but there, so that's why that one makes no sense, because, like, there's millions of people all filming the same thing. And like you said, there's professional people there. But I think there's nothing wrong with documenting things and, and keeping them for you. It's, it's the pressure to, like, make a moment marketable for other people while you're in the moment. So it's like, you know, like I was saying, really meaningful moments like say pregnancy, finding out you're pregnant and telling your partner and filming it. I think there's something about getting the camera out or knowing the camera's there that cheapens that moment, and it takes your mind away from the moment because instead you're thinking, "How is this coming across? How am I looking on camera? How are people gonna respond to this?" While you're in the moment. (laughs) So it is more those things that I think are extremely dystopian because they're like, people have the urge to do it when a moment is meaningful, but that's when it's the most kind of corrupt because you, you only get those meaningful moments a few times in your life, and you're cheapening it.

Chris Williamson 28:07 Well, we don't need the Apple Vision Pro for people to live their life via a screen if-

Freya India 28:14 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:14 ... that's what they're already doing. It's just a shit-

Freya India 28:16 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:16 It's a shittier six-inch version of it.

Freya India 28:18 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 28:19 But they're already coming in doing... This was something else that I learned that, um... Which is so funny. You know how if you were to suggest to one of the waiters while you were on holiday, "Hi, would you mind taking a photo of us, please?"

Freya India 28:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:32 Like, that's the universal, that universal take a photo of us, please.

Freya India 28:36 Yeah, it's actually... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 28:37 Yes, yes.

Freya India 28:38 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 28:38 I only found that out recently, that it's not. It's like, "Would you take-

Freya India 28:40 No.

Chris Williamson 28:40 ... a photo of us, please?" Like this, pressing on the middle of the s- middle of your palm as opposed to-

Freya India 28:45 Yeah, that's weird.

Chris Williamson 28:46 ... the top of the finger. Dude, so crazy.

Freya India 28:48 Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah. But it's, it's, it's so weird because like that, that woman who's given birth and the family looking at it through the screen, it's like she could've just FaceTimed you and you'd have had the same experi- Like, the, there is a woman who's literally looking at the baby, smiling, not looking up, or not looking. Um, I mean, I think there's something to be said for, like you said, remembering things through memories. Like, I think there's something nostalgic about only having a memory of something. I think if you're, if you've just got tens of thousands of kind of Instagram reels and Snapchat stories and whatever of moments, you don't... First of all, you're not gonna have the time to look back at them all and feel that nostalgia. And I think the things that will actually stand out are the things that you forgot to film because you were so in the moment-

Chris Williamson 29:38 Mm.

Freya India 29:38 ... you weren't even thinking about.

Chris Williamson 29:39 The threshold for that-

Freya India 29:40 A-

Chris Williamson 29:40 ... is now being changed. The threshold-

Freya India 29:43 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:43 ... for things that are, pull you into the moment so much that you forget to film them is basically zero.

Freya India 29:48 Yeah. And people say, "Oh..." You know, the amount of, uh, kind of tweets and stuff you see of people saying, "Oh, I went to this and I forgot to film," or, "I forgot to take a pic-" And the, the regret. And it's like, no, that's a good thing because you were living your life, and for a moment-

Chris Williamson 30:02 The big diff-

Freya India 30:02 ... you forgot.

Chris Williamson 30:03 The big difference, I think, is are you doing it as a memory for you, or are you doing it-

Freya India 30:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:07 ... so that you can then post it on social media?

Freya India 30:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:10 Because, uh, even if it's your job, there are certain things that I think it's a good idea to keep off social media, and especially if it isn't your job. Who's this for?

Freya India 30:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 30:22 If you're posting it-

Freya India 30:23 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 30:23 ... online, what you're trying to do is get some...... fucking titrated dose of whatever Kim Kardashian did.

Freya India 30:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:32 Which one of the Kardashians was it that used a surrogate and then the baby was born and immediately, like, handed it over to the...

Freya India 30:38 I think it was Khloe? I don't really know.

Chris Williamson 30:40 I don't know them. I'm bad with my Kardashian...

Freya India 30:43 I, I try and... I try hard not to know. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 30:44 Okay. Uh, you

Chris Williamson 30:46 also said... I've seen a quote from you that says, "What's totally absent from modern mental health advice is trying to be a better person." What's that mean?

Freya India 30:54 Yeah, I got some backlash for that. (laughs) Um, well, what I was trying to say by that is, I think, you know, Gen Z especially are bombarded with mental health advice that is always "buy a product or have this service or, um, you know, take a pill for whatever's wrong with you." Um, and I'm not talking about, you know, severely mentally ill people, but for most of Gen Z who are anxious, stressed, um, having these normal adolescent feelings that are being ramped up by modern life, um, you know, you, you, you don't necessarily need therapy. You don't necessarily need to take a pill. What you very often need is to look at your life and think about it, you know. The first thing to think about is whether you have real human connection in your life, whether you have, like, a solid community. Um, then if you're, you know, eating right, if you're exercising right. Then things like how you're treating people, how you're maintaining your relationships. But it's so absent from mental health advice because people, like, a- are absolutely terrified now of telling young people, you know, maybe this is not a mental health diagnosis. Maybe this is something you have agency over. Y- you just would never hear it. You would never hear it from a mental health campaign. You'd never hear it from an influencer.

Chris Williamson 32:15 Mm-hmm.

Freya India 32:15 They'd never say, you know, "Take a look at your own life. Have you done everything you can to feel good? And are you trying your best to be a good person?" Um, yet there's no way they would get away with saying it.

Chris Williamson 32:29 It's very strange, you know, coming from this Joe Rogan, David Goggins, Jocko Willink, Alex Hormozi universe of everyone saying, "No one cares. Just work harder." Uh, like, "Stop complaining. Just improve." Like, that whole sort of world view almost feels trite and obvious and kind of, uh, uh, in some ways, like, old.

Freya India 32:52 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 32:52 Oh, well, that... You know, that, that's, that's... There's nothing novel to be said with that. Um, but I guess you're forgetting about the cohort of people for whom that is a radical-

Freya India 33:03 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 33:03 ... assumption.

Freya India 33:04 Well, I think girls and young women don't hear that. Um, you know, I- I think there's, th- there's a lot of, um, obviously talk about, like, young men not having role models, but I think in recent years, that has changed. You know, there's al- there's Jordan Peterson, there's you, there's all kinds of podcasters who're trying to fill that gap and speak to young men and tell them, you know, to think about discipline and think about how they're treating people and, you know, if they're the best version of themselves. But I think there's a massive gap for young women because people are absolutely terrified to say-

Chris Williamson 33:37 Yep.

Freya India 33:38 ... you know, "Are you being a good person?" Especially to women, because they think it's, you know, regressing back, um, to telling women what to do. But I think, you know, young women are craving that because, uh, deep down, 'cause all we're hearing is, "Everything you do is great. Everything you do is empowering. Everything, you know, if, if, if you like it, then it's good for your mental health, then go for it." You know, we're hearing that from, like, mainstream feminism, we're hearing it from therapy culture, and we're hearing it from all of these kind of influencers and celebrities who are our role models, like Kim Kardashian or whoever it is, you know. Where is the female Jordan Peterson saying, "No, this behavior is not good." Um-

Chris Williamson 34:21 Yeah.

Freya India 34:21 "... this is the kind of behavior that, you know, is gonna be bad for your well-being and the people around you." We, we just won't hear that.

Chris Williamson 34:31 Who are the heroes, heroines... Who are the heroines of Gen Z? Like, what are the girls... You know, if you were talking about... I'm aware that, uh, y- you say

Chris Williamson 34:41 there isn't an equivalent of the, uh, of the Jordan Peterson or the Andrew Tate or the, the Rogan or whatever, but who is the... Who are the girls looking up to? Kardashians? What else?

Freya India 34:52 Yeah, I think pop culture figures. So, I think it would, if you were to ask them, it would be, like, singers and celebrity. It would be like Taylor Swift. It would be, like, actresses they see on TV.

Chris Williamson 35:03 Zendaya, Ariana Grande.

Freya India 35:05 Yeah. Yeah, so, you know, people who aren't, aren't gonna push a strong moral, um, value system on young women. They're gonna be very vague about everything for fear of offending and for fear of lecturing. Um, and I think... You know, everyone talks about, um, coddling Gen Z, but I think this is a big part of it, is that we're absolutely terrified to, to tell girls and young women w- what to do, you know. But you have to tell young people what to do, what to aim for, so that they can... You know, they're growing up now with absolutely no milestones for coming of age, no kind of guidance of where to go in the direction of their life. And I think it does a great, you know, disservice to young women to just pretend everything they do is fine. Um, and I- I think, yeah, we are actually craving some of that discipline that men are craving as well.

Chris Williamson 36:02 Yeah, I have a theory that over the next 10 years, the female mental health crisis will be the main story and the male body image crisis. I think that we're going to switch from crisis of femininity-

Freya India 36:16 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 36:16 Uh, crisis of masculinity to crisis of femininity and crisis of female body image to crisis of male body image. Now, girls are also maybe gonna hold on to both of those titles, I'm not sure.

Freya India 36:25 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 36:25 But, uh, male, male body dysmorphia is on track to overtake female body dysmorphia within about two decades.

Freya India 36:30 Really?

Chris Williamson 36:31 Uh, yeah.

Freya India 36:31 But is that caused by... Is that fitness kind of...

Chris Williamson 36:35 A good chunk of it. Um, so...... the male, the ideal male body has changed an awful lot. You know, perfect examples of this, if you look at action figures, if you look at Luke Skywalker from the '70s as a, you know, a kid's action figure, he's just a normal dude. You look at Luke Skywalker now, and he looks like he's on a very heavy course of PEDs.

Freya India 36:56 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 36:57 Um, and yeah, like all of the representations physically of men are unbelievably jacked. It- that's not to say-

Freya India 37:08 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:08 I mean, look at what's happened with Barbie, like how many, um... Look at the waist-to-hip ratio of Barbie. If Barbie was in the real world, she'd basically have no internal organs, et cetera, et cetera. There's been a- a reckoning around that-

Freya India 37:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:19 ... for women, uh, and there hasn't been for men. So it's always this flip-flop of, "Well, men have got, you know, the- the- this thing is something that we need to be concerned about with them," and that gets forgotten for the girls, and then the same thing-

Freya India 37:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:31 ... happens for girls with what gets forgotten-

Freya India 37:32 It's true.

Chris Williamson 37:32 ... for men.

Freya India 37:34 Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I think the, I think a lot of the mental health advice now is- is geared toward women, so it's like, you know, "Talk more about your problems," you know, view it in a very kind of female way. Um, but I actually think th- that's gone so far that it's now harming women as well. (laughs) You know, we're constantly saying to men, "You should be opening up more about your problems." Would never ever, you know, ever dare to say to women, "Maybe you're opening up too much."

Chris Williamson 38:04 Yeah.

Freya India 38:04 You know, that would be unacceptable.

Chris Williamson 38:09 There was this interesting, uh, quote that I found from Steve Stewart Williams, guy that wrote, uh, The Apes Who Understood the Universe, one of my favorite books, and he said, uh, "Consider the claim that society encourages males to be aggressive. This is probably true in some ways. We do sometimes give boys the message that they ought to be tough and not cry. Overall though, we spend a lot more time discouraging male aggression than female. Why? Because males are more aggressive. Or consider the claim that we tell girls to be quiet and passive. Again, we probably do this sometimes. More often though, we tell boys to be quiet and passive. Why? For the same reason, boys are louder and more disruptive."

Freya India 38:47 Yeah. That's true. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 38:50 Very interesting.

Freya India 38:51 I think it's, um... Yeah, but I think what's happening now is we- we try to, the more you try to do something that's gonna help young women, like... (sighs) I think everyone's trying to be very, um, careful with their language and careful with how they approach these issues because they know that women don't really like that direct discipline the same amount th- that boys and men do. They don't, we don't respond to it quite the same.

Chris Williamson 39:19 Mm-hmm.

Freya India 39:20 I think that is true. But now we've taken it to such an extreme where we're terrified to tell women anything. You know, it's all about, um, what makes us happy, what our desires are. Um, so it's based on some truth but it's just swung way too far.

Chris Williamson 39:34 It's like, this is coddling culture basically.

Freya India 39:38 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:39 Wh- what, is it making girls more depressed or more bitchy do you think?

Freya India 39:43 Uh, both at the same time. (laughs) No, I think, um, I think most of the narrative now is, you know, social media and, uh, therapy culture and all of these things are making girls anxious and making them depressed. Um, but I think a lot of things in modern life are also making girls, you know, behave worse as well. So social media for example. We know that girls' insecurities are a lucrative market that companies go after, but I also think companies know how to draw out female s- vices as well. So if you look at social media platforms, they're like perfectly set up for girls to be mean to each other, to engage in this kind of indirect forms of aggression like reputation destruction, passive aggression, gossip. It's like perfect on social media, so if you wanna s- socially exclude someone, you've got like the Snapchat Snap Map where you can have your live location, all of the friends are together, and you can see that you're not with them. Um, you know, you can create group chats where you cut people out, you can, if you wanna be passive aggressive, you can, like, tweet about someone but not mention their name so you're just like subtly, um, digging them. And you know companies play on this, like Instagram lets you have a set of close friends where you can exclude other people. There's apps like, um, NGL, which is like an anonymous messaging app.

Chris Williamson 41:13 NGO?

Freya India 41:15 Not Gonna Lie. So it's like you say something about, "Not gonna lie, she's really ugly." (laughs)

Chris Williamson 41:20 (laughs) There was something called Ya- Yak? YakYak?

Freya India 41:26 Oh, yeah. Is that a similar thing?

Chris Williamson 41:28 Yeah, that was basically the same. So it was geolocated anonymous posting, and, uh, this was for a couple of years in club promo, this was fucking fire because it meant, (laughs) it meant that we could all, we could all talk shit about every other promoter from town and know that everyone in town that was using YakYak or whatever, um, would see it, but that no one could say who it came from-

Freya India 41:54 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 41:54 ... uh, because it, by design it was anonymous. It was so funny, uh, but it-

Freya India 41:58 Did you have, um, Ask.fm? Was that when you were younger?

Chris Williamson 42:01 No. What was Ask.fm?

Freya India 42:03 Oh, so that was like brutal. That was, again, it's like anonymous messaging app where you can just, r- like people would just use it to rate other people, so you'd be like, "Can you give this girl a rating on like looks, personality?" (laughs) It was absolutely brutal. But yeah, companies are doing that because they know adolescents, teenagers, especially girls can be absolutely brutal to each other in that way, um, so they're playing on that as well. So I- I think it's- it's not only how social m- media is making us feel, but it's like who it's encouraging us to become as well.

Chris Williamson 42:38 Mm.

Chris Williamson 42:39 Do you think selfie editing is a powerful act of self-expression?

Freya India 42:43 Um, no. (laughs) Uh, yeah, so that was Facetune, wasn't it? Um, so it's so weird how that has changed. I mean, I remember when I was younger, people used to kind of disguise the fact they were editing their photos. It was like a, a shameful thing. But now it's kind of spun to, uh, something to be proud of. It's like self-expression. It's just like putting on makeup. Um, and the companies, I don't know what came first, but now the companies are jumping on that saying, you know, selfie editing is empowering and it's about, um, self-love, it's like about being proud of who you are and enhancing that. Like they use all kinds of language to spin it. Um, I think it was Khloé Kardashian, uh, said like, "Facetune is life-changing." She also Facetuned her newborn baby as well. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 43:38 She Facetuned her newborn baby?

Freya India 43:40 Yeah. There's a picture of her holding her baby, and the baby is like ridiculously airbrushed. Um, (laughs) but, um-

Chris Williamson 43:47 Did anyone pull her up on this?

Freya India 43:49 Yeah, I think people did say, you know, this is a step, step too far.

Chris Williamson 43:54 (laughs) But saying that it's a powerful female self-expression and it's true self-love to...

Freya India 44:00 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:01 (sighs) What's ha- talk, talk me through what's happening with self-image, body image, girls' sort of perspectives and perceptions of how they should look physically, facially, all the rest of it.

Freya India 44:12 Well, it's interesting because we, we seem to be the generation that's been inundated with this kind of message of self-love and body positivity. It's like it's everywhere. But we're the generation who seem to be struggling with it the most, so we're having... We've got record rates of cosmetic surgeries among Gen Z, so things like lip fillers, liposuction, boob jobs, all going up for Gen Z. And the clients getting younger and younger, so you're getting kind of teenagers who are... So Botox is banned in England. Teenagers are traveling to Wales to get Botox to prevent aging. (laughs) Um, so you've got these like record rates of cosmetic surgery, record rates of body dysmorphia, eating disorders, uh, facial dysmorphia, so things like, um, young women going to plastic surgeons asking to look like the Snapchat filter version of themselves.

Chris Williamson 45:12 Mm-hmm.

Freya India 45:13 Whereas before they'd come in with like a picture of a celebrity.

Chris Williamson 45:16 Yeah.

Freya India 45:16 And now it's them with a filter. So despite being so loud about, you know, self-love and self-acceptance and having that kind of shoved down our throats, it w- the opposite seems to be happening.

Chris Williamson 45:29 That's so interesting.

Freya India 45:31 Yeah, and I, I mean, I would put that down to social media because, you know, I don't think older generations quite realize how often Gen Z, especially Gen Z women, are looking at their faces because of their phone and because of TikTok and Instagram.

Chris Williamson 45:47 Oh, it's like having a mirror with you everywhere that you go.

Freya India 45:50 Yeah. And it's, uh, you know, it's also th- you're seeing a distorted version of yourself through filters and through your camera, so when you're looking in the mirror or someone takes a photo of you, it's very different to that camera image that you're so accustomed to. And it's wrong.

Chris Williamson 46:08 With the right angle that you know, with the right lighting-

Freya India 46:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:11 ...that you know, with the filter that you like.

Freya India 46:13 So it's dysmorphia. It's like I, I, I don't recognize-

Chris Williamson 46:15 But it's selfie dysmorphia.

Freya India 46:18 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:19 It's not... It's, it's... Uh, so there's, there's a couple of things here, first off being, um, other people on the internet portray themselves and make photos and videos of themselves in a way which is misrepresentative of the way that they actually look-

Freya India 46:33 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:33 ...in the real world. And, again, this recursive conveyor belt thing that we both separately came up with, um, causes you to spend or to see people as their online version, not their real life version.

Freya India 46:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:45 Then this is a very unique version of it, which is how you see yourself on the phone is actually different to how you are in the real world.

Freya India 46:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:59 So I imagine... I mean, there must be something like mirror dysmorphia or like phone dysmorphia-

Freya India 47:03 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:03 ...which is, "Wow, on my phone I look so great, but in the mirror I don't like myself." Well-

Freya India 47:09 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:09 Because you're making all of these edits.

Freya India 47:11 And it's, uh, uh, uh, I mean, have you seen the TikTok filters now, like the beauty filters?

Chris Williamson 47:16 No.

Freya India 47:17 They are so... So like when I was younger, we would have like Snapchat filters, but they would kind of like lag. So they had like... There was one that was like puppy ears, but it kind of smoothed your skin and like chiseled your cheeks, so like all the 13-year-old girls were using it. But if you moved, it would like lag, so it was obvious you're wearing a filter. But now, like there's-

Chris Williamson 47:38 What, the puppy ears weren't enough of a giveaway?

Freya India 47:41 Okay. Well, well, well, what people would do is-

Chris Williamson 47:44 (laughs)

Freya India 47:44 ...not the puppy ears one, but there would be other ones like, um, it would be makeup or you would have like butterflies or something, and girls would try and crop out the filter bit.

Chris Williamson 47:54 Right. I see.

Freya India 47:55 So then companies tried to introduce seamless ones, but now there's like young women trying on these filters that give them like a perfect kind of avatar face, but it's very realistic, and if they go like this, nothing changes. So when I was younger, like the fake eyelashes would be like on your hand (laughs) or something, whereas now you can do that, you can move, you can, uh, you know, speak normally. You can edit your body on Facetune so you can like make your waist microscopic. You can change your, like bum size, whatever.

Chris Williamson 48:31 And this works for videos as well as-

Freya India 48:33 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:33 ...photos, right?

Freya India 48:34 And then you can film yourself walking around with a different body and the background doesn't move or wobble or anything. And so not only are girls staring at their faces for hours a day, but they're staring at a often distorted version of that.... then going to the mirror, then thinking they have a mental illness of body dysmorphia or whatever. And it's like, anyone would have dysmorphia because you're not supposed to be staring at your face for this long, especially a modified version.

Chris Williamson 49:04 Have you been watching this season of Love Island that's happening right now?

Freya India 49:09 I have not.

Chris Williamson 49:10 Right.

Freya India 49:10 No.

Chris Williamson 49:10 What a shame for you. What a shame.

Freya India 49:13 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 49:13 Uh, so this is Love Island All Stars, which is-

Freya India 49:16 Oh.

Chris Williamson 49:16 ... bringing back, there's at least two or three, uh, people from my season.

Freya India 49:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 49:23 And, uh, that's been interesting to observe. Um, remembering, my season was s- uh, eight years ago, eight or nine years ago. Hannah, who was this, uh, Scouse girl, um, she purposefully went to get Bratz doll surgery.

Freya India 49:47 Right.

Chris Williamson 49:48 Have you heard of this?

Freya India 49:49 No, but I can guess. Is it Bratz, Bratz face or Bratz body portion?

Chris Williamson 49:55 Face, but also body to a degree. There's a video, Josh, one of the kids, actually another kid that was on my season. Wow, they really took a lot from season one. Maybe I was left out. I don't know. Um, but they... He w- she was walking away from him. They were just catching up or whatever as friends, and she was walking away from him, and he said, "Fucking hell, have you had your ass done as well?" And she went, "Yeah, I have." Uh, so, you know, there's no, there's very few bits. I mean, she was pretty enhanced the first time, but this broke the internet, uh, when, when the thing first came out. Someone sent it to me.

Freya India 50:28 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 50:28 And, I mean, Hannah was a playboy girl, Scouse playboy girl. For the Americans listening, Scouse is kind of like New Jersey a little bit, I guess. It's like sort of Geordie Shore, Jersey Shore-

Freya India 50:38 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 50:38 ... type, sort of fake tan and fake lashes and, and, and stuff. And, um, she really took it to the extreme about this. And yeah, the, the internet was lit up.

Freya India 50:51 So is that a BBL that she's had? Do you know?

Chris Williamson 50:53 She'll had a BBL.

Freya India 50:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 50:55 Another... And I mean, she had a boob job fucking e- eight years ago when we were on the show. She had a pretty big set of Scud missiles on her, and now they're like nuclear warheads. And, uh-

Freya India 51:07 But that's the thing, is, is I think when you get this, the dysmorphia... Well, well, when you start to get these procedures, it's almost like you get blind to how far you're taking it. Uh, u- until, like, she might look in the mirror and not see it as extreme.

Chris Williamson 51:23 Almost certainly, almost certainly does. Almost certainly.

Freya India 51:26 Yeah, because it's been gradual process for her. She's, you know, she's upgraded each feature one by one. Whereas, you meet her in real life and it's, like, jarring, and-

Chris Williamson 51:35 Well, that was the thing, that people were comparing the photo from eight years ago to the photo now.

Freya India 51:39 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 51:39 But it's the, it's the question, when did you get older? When did you get fat? Or when did you get whatever? Well, one day at a time.

Freya India 51:46 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:46 One procedure at a time. One l- lip filler appointment at a time.

Freya India 51:51 Yeah, it's true. And then s- social media, I think, is a big part of that. Ag- again, 'cause it's the algorithm, one step at a time. So firstly, you get an ad for lip fillers, and then it's like, "Oh, well, if you've had lip fillers, you might wanna even it out with a nose job. And then if you get a nose job, you probably wanna get..." You know, and it just goes on and on until... You know, there's a lot of influencers now who are coming out and dissolving fillers or reversing surgery. And they all say the same thing, which is, "I just woke up and didn't recognize myself." And almost like-

Chris Williamson 52:23 Molly-Mae did a... Luckily this is like the Love Island Podcast. Molly-Mae did-

Freya India 52:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 52:27 ... a, a big thing with that, didn't she? She sort of-

Freya India 52:29 Yes.

Chris Williamson 52:30 ... de-beautificationed herself.

Freya India 52:33 Yeah. She looks way better. She looks way younger. Um, but she said the same thing. She just said, "I have no idea who that person was." Like, sh- she's like, "I look at that filler version and I don't recognize her," because it happened gradually.

Chris Williamson 52:48 What do you think about this trend of, uh, fitness chicks or just Instagram girls uploading, "See, I've got rolls and stretch marks too?" What, what do you make of that?

Freya India 53:00 Yeah. Um, well, uh, I've seen a couple of those, and they're always, like, unflattering but flattering. So it's like the most flattering version of an unflattering photo you could get. Which I think is kind of worse than just posting a load of flattering stuff, because it's like, "Oh, here's my vulnerabilities, but I'm also still using good lighting." And it's, it's not that, like, repulsive.

Chris Williamson 53:23 It's the bodily humble brag.

Freya India 53:25 Yeah, yeah. So I think... I don't know. I still see that as kind of inauthentic sometimes, and, and actually worse in a way, because you're pretending it's your ultimate vulnerability.

Chris Williamson 53:37 The, the goal is laudable, right? Which is-

Freya India 53:42 Yes.

Chris Williamson 53:42 ... um, "Look, I am not perfect all the time. This is a photo of me posing, and this is a photo of me not posing." Uh, James Smith, my business partner on Nutonic, and Darren Cartel made a very big mess of Instagram for... Like, they were like mercenary assassins going around and finding these girls that were doing it and then doing a, a parody of it themselves with them in, like, a girl's crop top, uh, sort of posing going, "Hmm," crying-

Freya India 54:09 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 54:09 ... at the fact that they've got, they've got rolls and stuff. But then on the, on the other side, how are you supposed to fight back against insane body standard imagery-

Freya India 54:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 54:21 ... if you don't do that? If you don't try and do the, "Well, this is me in real life. This is what happens if I've had too much gluten." Or, "This is me around that time of the month." Or, "This is me-"

Freya India 54:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 54:31 "... when I'm not posing and I'm not lit and I don't have makeup on"?

Freya India 54:34 Well, I think it's, it's like the mental health thing. So I think a lot of people share their mental health problems online because they think, "Oh, you know, social media is a highlight reel and everyone's pretending to be perfect, so I'm gonna show my vulnerability." You know, a lot of influencers do that. They'll be like, "Oh, here's a selfie of me crying. You know, I'm normal. You know, don't worry."But it's like, I don't think the answer to the endless perf- posting of perfection is then to start revealing your most vulnerable personal moment, especially if you're a normal young girl. I think the answer is to post less in general, and to consume less of this stuff-

Chris Williamson 55:12 Mm-hmm.

Freya India 55:13 ...whereas I think a lot of young people now are kind of being convinced that they need to share their vulnerabilities so that their whole self is on social media, and it's kind of balanced. But I, I don't think that, you know, if you're a pre-teen or a teenager, I just would not be putting my deepest vulnerabilities online now. You know, when you don't know yourself, you don't know how you're gonna feel in the future, um, it's a similar thing.

Chris Williamson 55:41 What do Gen Z girls think about guys?

Freya India 55:46 Um, well, there's a big gap between Gen Z girls and Gen Z guys, and I, I don't know, did you see that Financial Times... Yeah, so the Gen Z girls and Gen Z guys worldview and values definitely seem to be diverging, across-

Chris Williamson 56:03 What do you, what do you lay that at the feet of?

Freya India 56:06 Um, a couple of things. So most of it, most of the divide in most of the countries is girls and young women shifting to the left. So guys seem to be either staying the same or becoming slightly more conservative on things like gender roles, or I think race and immigration as well. But it's young women who are, like, lurching rapidly to (laughs) becoming more progressive. Um, and so I think to explain that, to explain, like, the rise of liberal women, I think a big part of it is education, so universities leaning left, but young women way more likely to go to university than men. Men are actually-

Chris Williamson 56:48 But this is, this is an age group that's, for a lot of them, below the age of going to university, right?

Freya India 56:53 True. So, well, yeah, I think this, most sur- surveys are looking at Gen Z men and women.

Chris Williamson 57:00 Right.

Freya India 57:00 And I think if you were to include, you know, Gen Z girls and boys, it would also be the things like social media. So for example, if you're, if you're looking at progressive, um, something progressive on social media, some social justice, um, post or something, again, the algorithm will serve you the more extreme version of that. Uh, and you can end up going from kind of like a normal liberal position to the extreme left very quickly. And obviously, the same is true of right-wing content. But it's liberal teen girls who are spending five or more hours a day on social media. So it seems to be what I think is happening is girls are kind of naturally drawn to something like the social justice movement because it's very much about compassion, it's very much about, uh, lived experiences, and I think, you know, young women are higher in empathy, they're more conformist, so we're drawn to that, and then those natural tendencies are then picked up by the algorithm, and then you're spending hours a day on social media getting that confirmed and getting it more extreme.

Chris Williamson 58:08 Mm-hmm.

Freya India 58:08 And guys are getting a different experience, um, and then as they grow older, going to university, getting a different experience. Guys are more likely to study STEM subjects rather than humanities, which are much less left-leaning. So it just seems to be that we're having such different experiences and it's getting to the point where our worldviews are completely different, um, and we're not even, like, inhabiting the same reality anymore.

Chris Williamson 58:35 Yeah, I've got Daniel Cox, who was the dude that did the research, I've got him coming on. He's a bit of a digital ghost. I had to go through a bunch of people to, to get in touch with him, um, but I can't wait for that episode.

Freya India 58:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:47 I think that's gonna-

Freya India 58:48 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:49 ... be so good. Um, so that's exciting. Gonna bring him on, have a conversation, really dig into the mechanisms of it. I'd be interested to try and find somebody else that can dig into the mechanisms more, because obviously he knows the demographics and he's made some inferences, uh, and that article's fantastic, but, um, yeah, there's a bit more, I wanna understand why is this happening more than just-

Freya India 59:10 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 59:10 ... what's happening. Um-

Freya India 59:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 59:12 But okay, so, uh, w- Gen

Chris Williamson 59:14 Z girls, about guys, what do they think about r- relationships and dating and the importance of, of that?

Freya India 59:21 Well, I think a big thing now that I've noticed is being, is Gen Z women being risk-averse around guys and around dating. Um, so for example, if you go on, like, TikTok dating advice, it's very kind of cynical, it's very negative, it's like, you know, if a guy approaches you, he's a predator, or if he kind of compliments you a lot and gives you loads of gifts, he's love-bombing you, he's an abuser. You know, the words like narcissism and red flags getting thrown around, um, and the, uh, it's honestly everywhere. Like, I saw a, a tweet recently that was vir- went viral that was like, "Oh, if you, if you meet someone and you have intense chemistry, that's a major red flag. Like you should (laughs) leave because-"

Chris Williamson 1:00:10 Why?

Freya India 1:00:10 "... because it's like, um, a trauma signal that reminds you of your caregiver who mistreated you," or whatever. And it's got, like, thousands of likes, and it's that kind of language is so common, i- among young women talking about dating, which, like, I get, I think there are legitimate reasons to be risk-averse, so I think, you know, obviously it's much harder to date now with, in, after the sexual revolution with less kind of guardrails of custom and chivalry. And I, I do think there's reasons women are ris- risk-averse to being kind of disposed of and, you know, not having, um, a meaningful relationship follow from meeting someone. Also think, you know, we've got-... uh, you know, very high rates of divorced parents which, you know, plays into that risk aversion. Also, I think social media teaches you to be risk-averse and avoid discomfort.

Chris Williamson 1:01:08 But what, what is the reason for the risk aversion? Is it just not wanting to ever get hurt? How much of this-

Freya India 1:01:13 Yes.

Chris Williamson 1:01:14 ... is just an avoidance of any discomfort?

Freya India 1:01:16 Yeah, so basically, all of these things are creating this absolute terror of getting hurt. So I think a lot of the therapy speak and the, kind of, feminist language is a cl- is cloaking this deep fear of vulnerability. Um, you know, I think Gen Z grew up with this kind of message that anything with risk is a threat, to be avoided, you know, whether that's through social media, whether that's family structure, whether it was, you know, the childhoods we had. You know, our childhoods were very much like avoid risk, you know, prioritize health and safety and regulations, you know, simulating it all online rather than actually engaging in risk-taking behavior. And I think that plays out all the time in, in Gen Z's life. But a, a big, you know, part of that is relationships because they come with a high level of risk. And I, I don't think some Gen Z people can kind of... It's almost like we've been convinced that's not a part of life, that you can actually get away with a life that avoids risk and, you know, uncomfortable emotions. Um, but you can't. And so, it- it's actually, you know, really tragic because it puts us on a path to miss out on really meaningful things. So I think a lot of the, kind of, child-free TikTok stuff that everyone makes fun of and the, you know, less desire among Gen Z to have children can be explained by this fear of discomfort and risk aversion. You know, there's like a deep terror of things going wrong, um, which, you know, you go on, like, "Childfree TikTok" as well, it's all about discomfort and it's all about-

Chris Williamson 1:02:59 What is that for the people that don't know?

Freya India 1:03:01 So, um, people who've made the decision not to have children will post on like, uh, DINK, which is like double income, no kids. So they'll post like their luxury lifestyles that they can afford, and then they'll post their kind of childfree days and what they get up to and everything. Um, but there's also among that, there's a lot of young women especially talking about, uh, kind of the risks and discomfort that comes with having children, and trying to warn other young women and girls not to have children. So for example, there's a girl who does a free birth control series on TikTok, where she basically lists like every possible risk that could go wrong with pregnancy or children to kind of tell-

Chris Williamson 1:03:48 Was that the girl with the list?

Freya India 1:03:50 No, so that's another one. (laughs) So then there's another-

Chris Williamson 1:03:52 What's this one?

Freya India 1:03:53 So this is just a girl, she, she does like a, um, helpful birth control series to remind you why you shouldn't have children, and she would just put clips of, like, children screaming and throwing up and destroying stuff, and like health scares-

Chris Williamson 1:04:07 Right, okay. This is like a cultural intervention type...

Freya India 1:04:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:11 ... a lifestyle, a lifestyle warning?

Freya India 1:04:13 Yeah, but I think the first-

Chris Williamson 1:04:14 She doesn't have kids so she's...

Freya India 1:04:16 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:04:16 Right, okay.

Freya India 1:04:16 Yeah. And then I think the first person to do that was this woman who created The List, which is like a crowdsourced list of reasons not to have children.

Chris Williamson 1:04:25 I think it was 350 reasons not to have-

Freya India 1:04:29 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:29 ... not to have kids, and it was a page and a half. And she printed them out, so it's, you know, like nine pages, 10 pages or something-

Freya India 1:04:35 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:04:35 ... of reasons not to. And I think the, the reasons to amounted to a page of A4. But in the reasons not to have kids was, um, "Can't wear cute heels anymore, will miss br- miss brunch with the girls, literal parasite living inside of your body."

Freya India 1:04:50 Yeah. Yeah. Uh, plus every, every kind of risk or health scare that could possibly go wrong is like listed on it. So if, like everything from starting with, you know, losing sleep and, you know, having like a stomach ache or a headache to the absolute worst case scenario risk that could happen. And you kind of read it and you're like, "God, this is like the most meaningful thing a human can do." You know, it, it's the fundamental human instinct. Not, not to say that everyone should have children, but when you see, you know, so many young people convinced that life should be fun and easy all the time, and that anything that comes with this level of risk is not worth it, I think that's a symptom of like something extremely sinister, which is, which is, you know, Gen Z are suffering from because they're on a path to miss out on the most meaningful things because of it out of fear.

Chris Williamson 1:05:46 It's the prioritization of immediate emotional comfort over long-term flourishing. It's the avoidance of risk, but also change because change is associated with risk.

Freya India 1:06:02 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:06:02 Uh, there, there is a, a kind of individualized solipsism about... Uh, I think the, the most popular reasons for why, uh, people aren't in relationships or why they're not dating, it's, uh, "Working on myself right now. Just don't feel ready."

Freya India 1:06:20 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:06:20 "Don't have enough time. Having too much fun on my own."

Freya India 1:06:23 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:06:23 Uh, the same thing for why people don't want to have kids, uh, it's this sort of imposition on their life.

Freya India 1:06:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:06:31 That's what, that's what they're primarily concerned about, because if I do this thing, things are going to change. And if the things change, uh... Where was it here?

Chris Williamson 1:06:39 This is interesting. Um-When asked what it takes to lead a fulfilling life, the public prioritizes job satisfaction and friendship over marriage and parenthood. 71% of all adults say having a job or career they enjoy is extremely or very important for people to live a fulfilling life, and 61% say having close friends is equally important. Only about one in four adults say having children, or 23% being married, is extremely or very important to- in order to live a fulfilling life. A third say each of these is somewhat important, and 42% and 44% say having children or being married is not too or not at all important. Having a lot of money is viewed as extremely or very important for a fulfilling life. Women place a little more importance on job/career enjoyment than men do, 74% versus 69%. At the same time, men place somewhat more importance on marriage and having children, 28% of men compared with 18% of women say being married is extremely or very important for a fulfilling life. Similarly, 29% of men versus 22% of women say the same about having children. And that was Pew Research that literally came out three months ago. The interesting-

Freya India 1:07:47 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:07:47 ... take online was, "Having a great job is zero sum, only one person can be the best salesperson, but hypothetically, everyone can have a happy marriage and family."

Freya India 1:07:56 Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, again, that's the- I would put that down to the, uh, lack of, you know, role models, again, for young women who are sh- or who are showing that different lifestyle of, you know, family and children. Um, you know, if you look at the top kind of pop culture stars that Gen Z women are looking up to and loving, they're all living a similar lifestyle because they're in that, um, world where their ultimate goal is money and, you know, fame and, um, all of these values that, you know, are kind of incompatible with children. They make- you know, children get in the way of that.

Chris Williamson 1:08:33 Yep.

Freya India 1:08:34 They're not seeing role models whose ultimate values are family or, uh, you know, legacy or anything like that. So it- it's just not being translated to them.

Chris Williamson 1:08:44 I wonder what will happen if Taylor Swift gets pregnant. Like, I- I- I- I-

Freya India 1:08:51 Maybe it will be a book. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:08:52 ... fucking hesitate to use Taylor Swift as the linchpin for female culture, but she has captured culture in a way that I- you know, I don't think really anybody else has. And something tells me that Travis Kelce, he's a bearded beer drinker. I mean, he's also sponsored by Pfizer, uh, and maybe paid for by George Soros. But he is a pretty, like, old school sweary guy. Him and his brother-

Freya India 1:09:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:09:17 ... you know, behave in that kind of a manner. Something tells me that he probably intends on having a family at some point. And if you've got the greatest or one of the greatest NFL players ever, their genes, plus perhaps one of the greatest female pop stars, it's like, "Make some kids, come on."

Freya India 1:09:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:09:34 But if that- if that happens, do you remember when Adele lost weight and all-

Freya India 1:09:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:09:37 ... of the body positivity people were like, "Y- y- y- you betrayed us-"

Freya India 1:09:41 Heart rate.

Chris Williamson 1:09:41 "... and blah, blah, blah." I wonder how many people will say- you know, they're all happy for the fact that Taylor Swift's in a relationship.

Freya India 1:09:47 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:09:48 But she is still able to do the dink role model-

Freya India 1:09:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:09:54 ... thing, but if she decides to start having a family, I wonder how much of that would change. And then look at it the other way, I mean, Alex Cooper should have been called to account so fucking hard. She should have got dragged so fucking hard on the internet for extolling the virtues of casual sex and no frills attached and sleep with him and don't catch feels and here's how to-

Freya India 1:10:18 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:10:18 ... the glug glug f- four thousand or whatever this, like, good blowjob episode that was episode number three of her podcast or something else. Like, extolling the virtues of casual sex, and then for the final three years of the podcast, secretly having a relationship with a guy that she was totally besotted and in love with. And then to kind of like- like Bruce Wayne saying that he's Batman, go-

Freya India 1:10:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:10:41 ... "I'm engaged, and the engagement-"

Freya India 1:10:43 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:10:43 "... was so cute and there was a rose garden and he got down on one knee and he'd asked my dad-"

Freya India 1:10:48 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:10:48 "... and he'd done all of this other stuff." And it goes, yo, how big is the wake of broken girls that allowed themselves to be used by guys-

Freya India 1:10:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:10:57 ... over the last half decade because of you as the- the second-bigest, whatever, one of the biggest female podcasts on the planet? How many girls did you basically sell a lie to about the lifestyle-

Freya India 1:11:10 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:11:10 ... that you thought was good when what you were doing was the opposite? And then you knew it, you knew that this was the case.

Freya India 1:11:16 Yeah. Yeah. I- I think, again, it's that fear. You know, the fear of telling girls what to do, but also the fear of e- in promoting a traditional lifestyle in any way. You know, that- I think there's, like, a terror of thinking that you're regressive if you start saying, "Oh, you know, I actually enjoy my marriage. I'm actually glad I got married young," or, you know, uh, "I'm gonna give up some of this," um, you know, "I'm gonna put fame to the side to have children," or things like that. I think a lot of probably older women feel that but don't translate it to younger women because they don't wanna lecture them. Um, w- you know, whereas, you know, we need some people in culture who are- who are pointing- you know, not saying all young women need to have children or get married, but saying, you know, "Actually, the most fulfilling things are things that you don't buy and you don't, um, you know, need to have sold to you, they're things like a meaningful relationship and children, which are separate from the market, and they provide this kind of sustainable meaning." You know, no one's saying that because it's not sexy and it's not, like, attention grabbing.

Chris Williamson 1:12:25 Well, how many women as well that would be the role models for this talking point just don't exist in the same communication-

Freya India 1:12:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:12:35 ... ecosystem as the audience that would benefit from it most?

Freya India 1:12:40 Yeah, and also, the- the people with the platform are usually influencers who are-... whose ultimate values are the fame, money, and possessions.

Chris Williamson 1:12:49 Yeah. You've selected for a very particular type of person that was chasing the fame-

Freya India 1:12:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:12:53 ... and the fame is what got them the platform on which they can talk about the virtues of chasing fame.

Freya India 1:12:58 Yeah, so probably the best role models for women are not on social media (laughs) and are not famous.

Chris Williamson 1:13:04 Mm-hmm.

Freya India 1:13:04 Um-

Chris Williamson 1:13:05 Yeah, they're having a quiet coffee with their friends on a Tuesday afternoon.

Freya India 1:13:08 Yeah, yeah. And then, and then you get this, like, like, trad wife movement or whatever where you get the, the other extreme end, but it's still, it's still performance. They're still, like, filming it for TikTok. So it's like either way, we're still getting, like, a shallow version. Um...

Chris Williamson 1:13:24 Do you know who Sam Sulek is?

Freya India 1:13:27 No. Who's that?

Chris Williamson 1:13:28 (laughs) It's, it's, like-

Freya India 1:13:30 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:13:30 ... so unsurprising that you, a girl on the internet, doesn't when every guy on the internet pretty much does. He is a, uh, 22-year-old, 23-year-old bodybuilder-

Freya India 1:13:40 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:13:41 ... I guess, um, and his whole thing is completely raw authenticity. Uh, his entire YouTube channel, there's no crafting of thumbnails, there's no crafting of titles, um, and all he does is film his training sessions, and he gets in a car, and he's just the m- the least polished person that you're going to meet. He's a little bit socially awkward. He's jacked out of his mind, so he's huge. So there's a lot of aspiration in his normality, uh, but there's a trend at the moment, at least on the guys' side, I think, of moving away from the hyper-polished, very edited, very curated messaging. I think people are falling in love with people that... Yeah, I get that. Like, I understand. I, I, I, I, I drive a Toyota fucking Avensis.

Freya India 1:14:28 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:14:28 I, um, you know, sometimes get, uh, uncomfortable when people come up to me in the gym, th- those sorts of things.

Freya India 1:14:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:14:35 And he's, he's just showing what's going on. And I wonder when there will be a female equivalent because he's had phenomenal success that seems-

Freya India 1:14:47 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:14:47 ... to be... I mean, he's playing five-dimensional chess if he's, if that's actually a role, uh-

Freya India 1:14:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:14:53 ... and he's conned everybody. But yeah, I, I think there could be gap in the market for, uh, an influential female to come in and do something similar.

Freya India 1:15:03 Yeah. I think, uh, the problem is with that is I think some people try, they try to be very authentic online. And then, like I said, they end up performing, but in a different way. So they end up performing, like, you know, like, you see videos on TikTok, like influencers saying, "Oh, you know, this is me kind of crying on my bedroom floor because everything's going wrong." And it's like-

Chris Williamson 1:15:25 Too much.

Freya India 1:15:25 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:15:26 Too much.

Freya India 1:15:26 And it's also, you've set up the camera in order to cry, in order to capture this moment. Um, you know, it's like influencers saying, "Oh, you know, I caught my panic attack on camera." And you watch it, and it's like, yeah, this is performance again. So I think there's a very narrow line to, to actually be authentic. Um, and again, we just seem to be swinging right past it, (laughs) um, to still be performing all the time.

Chris Williamson 1:15:55 How is... or why is it the case that sex and dating are down if hookup culture is so prominent?

Freya India 1:16:05 Yeah, this is interesting. I think, I think it seems to be that, uh, when people are having sex, it's more often casual sex. But in general, Gen Z are having less sex compared to previous generations at the same age. But if you talk to young people about their sexual experiences, they'll usually typically be, like, a hookup or something like that. Um, but I think a lot of what Gen Z are in now is, like, situationships. So they're in, like, this gray area where they seem to be hooking up, and there's no commitment. There's no relationship out of it. So the people who are having sex, uh, like, don't seem to be in committed relationships like previous generations were. They're in this kind of weird stage where you're not exclusive, but you're having sex. And I, I think that is, like, a big cause of, um, anxiety and relationship problems is there, there doesn't seem to be boundaries anymore with that.

Chris Williamson 1:17:07 Mm. And why is that the case? What, what is the underlying driver that's, uh, like, encouraging both sex positivity and risk aversion at the same time? Like, I, I, I don't understand what-

Freya India 1:17:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:17:22 ... what the current is.

Freya India 1:17:24 Well, there, there seems to be this paradox in so many areas of young women's lives. So like you said, there's the risk aversion and the sex positivity. Then there's also the, you know, self-love and body positivity and the body dysmorphia and the eating disorders. Then there's also like, you know, "I'm a feminist, um, empowered woman who doesn't care, but also I have crippling anxiety and depression." (laughs) And there seems to be so many, like, paradoxes going on, and I, I think it's because a lot of the narratives are like a front for how we're actually feeling, like a defense mechanism. So there's a lot of people talking about sex positivity and how casual sex is empowering, but there's also a lot of people saying they, they're stuck in situationships. They can't get a guy to commit. They don't wanna commit. You know, they're having all kinds of doubts and thinking of all kinds of red flags of reasons not to commit. So I think, like, the louder we get about sex positivity, the louder we get about anything really in modern life, it seems to be that deep down, the opposite is true. There's real pain.

Chris Williamson 1:18:27 (laughs)

Freya India 1:18:27 There's real confusion. (laughs) Um, but yeah, it seems to be a way of dealing with it.

Chris Williamson 1:18:32 There's definitely... Th- the paradoxes, I think, exist because people are performing this performative empathy, toxic compassion thing-

Freya India 1:18:44 (coughs)

Chris Williamson 1:18:44 ... causes...... where you want to thread the needle to intersect two Venn diagrams sometimes, right? Like, "I don't want to kink shame, and women can have sex the same as men do," and also like, "I, uh, you should be afraid of all of the things that exist on the internet and, uh, all of the things that can happen in real life, and here's red flags because he's come up to you in the gym." Like that-

Freya India 1:19:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:19:07 ... sometimes that needle gets threaded between the two, because people aren't actually doing the sense-making for themselves, they're outsourcing it to people on the internet. And this person over here, the guys shouldn't approach girls in the gym person, also... That, that's one cohort, "Okay, I believe that thing-

Freya India 1:19:23 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:19:23 "... even if I don't believe that thing, I think that thing or I've seen that thing." And then you've got the other side which is the, uh, "Don't kink shame me. You can sleep with them and not catch feels. I listen to Alex Cooper." And, uh, you know, those things come together.

Freya India 1:19:36 Yeah, yeah. No, it's true, and I think it's one of those things where people... It's like they've not thought through the consequences of it. So th- there'll be... For example, there's, like, um, a lot of feminists who push kind of commodifying yourself and selling yourself online as, as fun and, like, risk-free and empowering, but then if they saw, like, a 13-year-old copying that behavior, they would be absolutely horrified. Um, s- so they know that they, you know, when they're saying it's fun and risk-free and there's nothing wrong with it, they know that, like, there is something about it that you shouldn't be sharing with young girls without warnings of the risks and the dangers. Um, but they continue to do it and sell it that way. Uh, so I think a lot of the time what people are pushing and celebrating, they know there's dark sides to it or they know there's dangers, but they keep pushing and celebrating it to kind of justify that, and it's like a defense mechanism.

Chris Williamson 1:20:33 Talk to me about the glamorizing of divorce.

Freya India 1:20:37 Yeah, so (laughs) um, I first started writing about that when I saw, uh... So Adele got divorced, and it was like a big-

Chris Williamson 1:20:44 Oh, did she? I thought i- i- in my world, she'd only just got married.

Freya India 1:20:48 No, she got... She was, uh, married very young and she got divorced. Um-

Chris Williamson 1:20:52 Hmm.

Freya India 1:20:53 And she made it kind of like her personal brand, so, like, she had a... I'm pretty sure she was selling, like, divorced merchandise at her concerts, uh... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:21:02 What does that consist of?

Freya India 1:21:04 I think it was necklaces saying "Divorced," um, I'm pretty sure. And sh- her catchphrase was like, "Divorced, babe," or something. And, uh, to be fair to her, like, a lot of fans were pushing it as well, like, it was her divorce album, so they were, like, loving it. Um, and I'd noticed as well, like, mainstream magazines and publications also glamorizing divorce. So, like, The New York Times called it "a radical act of self-love," um, and, uh, Valen- Vogue was saying, "This Valentine's Day, let's, like, celebrate divorce." (laughs) Um, and, yeah, uh, well, The Guardian was talking about the joy of divorce parties. They spoke about it recently as well, um-

Chris Williamson 1:21:44 The joy of divorce parties?

Freya India 1:21:46 Yeah, so to celebrate your divorce with your loved ones. Um, so I'd seen all of this stuff in culture that was not just kind of saying, you know, "Don't shame people for getting divorced," it was saying like, "Let's actively celebrate it." And I think it's the same thing again, it's like a defense mechanism, because we all know intuitively and through the data that, you know, divorce is devastating for children and families, by almost every metric. And yet, to kind of deal with that, again, we're getting louder and louder about the joys of divorce and how it's self-love and it's empowering. And I think the only way to explain that is it's- it's like a topic that's so close to home, that's so, like, difficult to confront, that the only way to handle it is to kind of wrap it up in this language and pretend that, you know, we're all celebrating it. Um, but I've seen that so much, and it's also interesting that it's never mentioned as, like, a factor in Gen Z's mental health. Uh, family breakdown is just... If you look at the academic essays, if you look at mainstream, you know, uh, media commentators trying to figure it out, it's never divorce, it's never... You know, maybe this, there could be a part to play that, you know, one in three Gen Z see their parents split by the time they're 16 in the UK. That's never mentioned. It's always, again, the climate crisis or the housing ladder or whatever it is.

Chris Williamson 1:23:16 How much of a big role do you think, or h- how instrumental are broken families and single-parent households? Uh, how much of Gen Z's problems are downstream from that?

Freya India 1:23:29 Um, well, I would say, I would say a lot of Gen Z struggle because of that, bec- because, you know, we know from, um, research that having divorced parents means that you're more likely to suffer from anxiety, from depression, from eating disorders, self-harm. You know, girls especially seem to have these, like, internalizing behaviors when they go through trauma, like, uh, family breakdown, so they'll very often get very anxious and withdraw inwards and kind of punish themselves through things like eating disorders or self-harm, which we're seeing, like, en masse now. Um, so it's not to say that I think family breakdown causes all of Gen Z's mental health problems, but I think everything Gen Z is struggling with is made worse by family breakdown. So, for example, if you're... Like, I think social media's terrible for young girls, but I would say it's probably worse if you don't have a family to ground you and you're