Why Are Liberals More Depressed Than Conservatives? - Destiny

1. 0:00 – 2:50

   Intro

   1. DEDestiny0:00

      Every single race, obviously, has a very favorable view of people in their own race-

   2. CWChris Williamson0:04

      Yep.

   3. DEDestiny0:04

      ... with one exception, and it was white liberals, have a very negative... The graph is like, it's like Black people, Asians, Mexicans, and then the negative was for white people-

   4. CWChris Williamson0:13

      Wow.

   5. DEDestiny0:14

      ... for hating white people. There's no other ethnic group or combination of factors where somebody hates themselves as much as, like, white liberals do. Here's the first thing we're getting into, okay?

   6. CWChris Williamson0:25

      Yep.

   7. DEDestiny0:25

      All right. So I've started taking a little bit more, um, interest in my appearance, okay?

   8. CWChris Williamson0:29

      Okay.

   9. DEDestiny0:29

      Um, why do you gu- Okay, so I noticed that... I feel like men look really good when you're kinda, like, sitting in a chair, supports your back, you're, you know, you're up like this, right?

   10. CWChris Williamson0:36

       Mm-hmm.

   11. DEDestiny0:36

       Real proper posture. Why do you guys have these, like, deep-seated fucking chairs? Where you, like... Especially for shorter guys like me. Look at me, look at me in this. This is me sitting-

   12. CWChris Williamson0:44

       (laughs)

   13. DEDestiny0:44

       ... in the back. This is intentional, okay?

   14. CWChris Williamson0:46

       (laughs)

   15. DEDestiny0:46

       What are you, like, six-two? I'm five-eight. It makes me look like a fucking, like the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man guy from fucking Ghostbusters.

   16. CWChris Williamson0:53

       (laughs)

   17. DEDestiny0:53

       I think you do this shit intentionally, just to get one over on your guests. Like, you've already got me mentally fucked-

   18. CWChris Williamson0:57

       No, not at all.

   19. DEDestiny0:57

       ... before you even started the podcast, okay?

   20. CWChris Williamson0:58

       Not at all. I'm not trying to do that.

   21. DEDestiny1:00

       Uh-huh.

   22. CWChris Williamson1:00

       This is not, it's not discriminating against anybody below five-eight.

   23. DEDestiny1:03

       (laughs) Okay. All right.

   24. CWChris Williamson1:04

       Did you see the, uh, Elon BBC interview thing, where they did the usual, put him on a stool and make him feel as uncomfortable as possible? The stool still had the price tag on it.

   25. DEDestiny1:14

       Nice. I did not see that. I didn't know. Is that, like, part of their...

   26. CWChris Williamson1:17

       Just, presumably, BBC's taxpayer-funded, so they're like, "We're not going to allow any money to be wasted. We'll take the stool back once the richest man in the world sat on it."

   27. DEDestiny1:26

       Damn.

   28. CWChris Williamson1:27

       Not good. How-

   29. DEDestiny1:28

       I did see a, I saw, like, a two or three-minute clip of that.

   30. CWChris Williamson1:30

       And he wrecked him?
2. 2:50 – 13:03

   Destiny’s Debate with Milo Yiannopoulos

   1. DEDestiny2:50

      either hiding his horrible ideology or doing genuine reformation. I'm not sure which he's doing. You know, I'll, I take people, I meet people where they're at. Um, Milo is, I, I feel like I understand Milo pretty well, maybe.

   2. CWChris Williamson3:03

      What is he? Who is he now?

   3. DEDestiny3:04

      Um, man. My chat made fun of me when I said this, but I feel like Milo, I wanna say Milo, for a brief moment in time, was, like, one of the top three to five most popular political pundit people in the world. In like 2016, right? Or in that era. He was going to colleges. He had books out. He was... Everybody knew him all over the world. He was making everybody mad. He was on this, like, alt-right/Trump binge, and then, man, that pedo convo really just did a number on him. (laughs) He just... Yeah, and-

   4. CWChris Williamson3:32

      The beginning of the spiral down. Did you see the vlog where he flew to Hawaii to try and throw his engagement ring into an active volcano? And then the Hawaii local environmental organization said, "We don't let people go and throw personal possessions into active volcanoes." So, he got a bottle of vodka, got on a, rented a boat, and then was drinking the bottle of vodka, showing how expensive the ring was on his phone before he, plink, just threw it into the Pacific.

   5. DEDestiny3:59

      I did not see that.

   6. CWChris Williamson4:00

      That was a sad, sad vlog-

   7. DEDestiny4:02

      Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson4:02

      ... to watch.

   9. DEDestiny4:03

      Jeez.

   10. CWChris Williamson4:04

       So, where is he now? Who is he now?

   11. DEDestiny4:06

       Um, I think he's just desperately trying to carve out some political niche. Um, and, and right now, it seems like that's, like, this Christian Nationalist thing, but he, like, exists solely in these strange spaces on Telegram. Um, he has no, like, social media anywhere 'cause he's banned from everything. And he doesn't really have, like, a coherent political ideology or lifestyle or platform or anything. So, he's just like, yeah. He's, like, grifted into this very, very niche, weird world where he's trying to, like, make some kinda name for himself, but it doesn't seem like it's going too well.

   12. CWChris Williamson4:36

       It seems to me, watching him against you, and then also, I've seen him do a couple of other little interviews over the last couple of years. It's kind of like watching a punch-drunk boxer trying to get back into the ring one last time. You, all of the... He did have kind of charm. It was a real trolly charm.

   13. DEDestiny4:53

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson4:53

       But there was something, like, whimsical and, and kind of funny and sort of subversive about what he used to do. And then it was so just, like, icky and gloves off, but not in a ruthless way, kind of in a st- like a scrappy, scrabbling, bottom-of-the-barrel way-

   15. DEDestiny5:10

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson5:10

       ... with that debate with you. And then you bring up, like, one point. There's one bit of pushback that you get, like, one legitimate piece of pushback, which was still couched quite a lot. For the people that haven't seen it, you brought up the thing that he was canceled for, as he started accusing you of, like, having kids that were going to be future pedophiles or something.

   17. DEDestiny5:26

       (laughs) Yeah, something, yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson5:27

       And you were like, "This is not the stance for you, of all people, to take." And then that immediately just broke his brain. And I thought, "Dude, like, if you're gonna fucking dish it out for 50 minutes, at least be able to take it on the other side." And he couldn't. So, it, it really just... I don't know. It's like the, the death throes of some fucking, like, old singer who's touring again and, and doesn't, can't hit the high notes.

   19. DEDestiny5:48

       Yeah, that's basically how I view it, yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson5:52

       What has changed then, with the landscape that means that Milo is no longer... Like, is it just that that kind of trolly alt-right stuff is not cool anymore?

   21. DEDestiny6:02

       Yeah, so something, um, I give myself a lot of credit for is, I've been doing online content now in a, in a fairly relevant way for about 13 years. And in order to maintain at a level to where you're still accruing new followers, where people still wanna look at you for what's going on in the modern day, you kind of have to adapt to the changing, kind of like political landscapes. Um, I'm sure stuff changed fast in the past too, but man, today on the internet, political movements will come and go in like one to four years, depending on the movement. Uh, Milo definitely thrived in this kind of like alt-right explosive era, where trolling and attacking college kids, and being as provocative as possible and pushing back against the SJWs, you know. That's what we used to call woke people back in the 2016 days.

   22. CWChris Williamson6:43

       (laughs)

   23. DEDestiny6:43

       That was like the, the height of what he did. But I feel like he never really adapted past that, and he's still kind of like looking back towards that. You know, like you said, like he's got like his provocative attitude and all of that, and he's got his, you know, I think manner of speaking he copied from like Hitchens, uh, where he's like, you know, this try- this oration style. But he doesn't really have any substance anymore. Like d- no offense, but like are we really looking to like Milo Yiannopoulos for the ideal Christian type of lifestyle? And now he's like super pro-censorship, and it's like, yeah, I don't know, it's just very strange, you know.

   24. CWChris Williamson7:12

       I did a debate in Qatar about masculinity about six weeks ago.

   25. DEDestiny7:16

       Mm-hmm.

   26. CWChris Williamson7:16

       And they put up a montage of a bunch of different people commenting on how feminism had gone too far, and the fucking first person was Milo Yiannopoulos.

   27. DEDestiny7:24

       (laughs)

   28. CWChris Williamson7:24

       And I had to kind of couch it, and I was like, "Look, I do it..." And then after that was Rogan, and then there was p- Peterson and blah, blah, blah.

   29. DEDestiny7:29

       Mm-hmm.

   30. CWChris Williamson7:30

       Guys, if, if you have brought me here to try and defend Milo Yiannopoulos, I'm... Like, that's not the job that I was sent here to do.
3. 13:03 – 19:43

   Why Are Groups Falling In On Themselves?

   1. DEDestiny13:03

   2. CWChris Williamson13:03

      Speaking about the Milo and Nick explosion-

   3. DEDestiny13:05

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson13:06

      ... or implosion, it seems like pretty much every other political organization, like The Young Turks versus the entire left, uh, Crowder versus Shapiro-

   5. DEDestiny13:13

      Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson13:13

      ... DeSantis versus Trump, like, everything just seems to be kind of falling in on itself. The trans movement versus other parts of the trans movement as well.

   7. DEDestiny13:21

      Mm-hmm.

   8. CWChris Williamson13:22

      What's that in... Uh, have you got any idea about what's indicative of that or why it's happening?

   9. DEDestiny13:28

      Um, there's two thoughts I have. One is a thought that Spencer brought up in my conversation that people need, like, an enemy. I kind of wonder i- if without a strong rallying figure, everybody just kinda, like, turns on themselves. So, personally, I think Biden's doing a really good job as president, uh, for a variety of reasons, but Biden is not like a character that most people want to, like, either die attacking or die defending. He just doesn't inspire, like, that kind of like, "Yeah, Biden!" You know? Um, so people on the right, y- you can't really hate him as much as, like, you could like Hillary Clinton. And people on the left don't really wanna defend him as much as they would like Obama or Bernie Sanders, right? So, uh, may- maybe without, like, that strong center, like, lightning rod, um, that inspires, like, defense and aggression, now people are kinda, like, looking at everybody else for who they wanna fight with, like everybody on the right. Everybody on the right is fighting amongst themselves. Oh my God, the Shapiro-Crowder thing was insane when that blew up. The, um, the Trump-DeSantis stuff is, like, brewing on the horizon with occasional spillovers. Um, that whole Christian nationalist stuff with Fuentes, Alex Haley, yeah, it's all great. And then on the left, thankfully they're a smaller faction of our party, but the, the progressives and, like, fighting with everybody is, like, a huge thing that's blowing up online too. So, um, yeah, I- I think-

   10. CWChris Williamson14:45

       That was the first part, what's the second one?

   11. DEDestiny14:46

       Um, the second one is, uh, this is something I've been talking about a lot more. Um, I think our identity is getting more fractured in really negative ways. It- it's hard to... I- I try to keep in mind, like, I don't know what's unique now versus this has always existed, but I'm, like, a 34-year-old guy and this is my whole life, so maybe, but like- You know, I- may- so maybe I just, maybe I over exaggerate the present, recentism or whatever, but it really feels like w- we can't be proud of any part of our identity right now, um, for a variety of reasons. Two big, two big reasons. So on the left, it feels like we're, w- we identify ourselves (laughs) by, like, how much we're supposed to hate ourselves, you know? Like, "Okay, I'm white and that's horrible because my ancestors had slaves and I'm part of a white supremacist system and colonialism means I'm exploiting the world and capitalism means bl-..." Like, it's like all of it is such a fucking drag. And then for people on the right, um, especially as they've taken this more populist bend, people on the right can't even be proud of America anymore because now they all hate fucking corporations and they hate, like-

   12. CWChris Williamson15:40

       Mm.

   13. DEDestiny15:40

       ... everything related to, like, um, uh, like, everything that America does now. So like, her- here's, like, two examples that I'll give. I don't know how controversial it'll be with you or your audience, but like, in my opinion, okay, I think that the vaccine is like... I think that that was the perfect shining example of, like, American capitalism. You had the government under Trump do Warp Speed, trying to incentivize private industry that is, like, globalized, it's working with different companies all over the world, Pfizer and biotech, to use publicly funded research in the United States to create a vaccine for a novel virus in less than 12 months. That's like, uh, that is like a shining example of like, only the United States of America could have done that. But it's such a politically captive topic that nobody can feel good about it (laughs) . People on the left are like, "Uh, yeah, I guess, you know." And people on the right are like, "No, fuck that," even though Trump is like, "Please like the vaccine." So like, we can't feel good about that. I think that Ukraine, regardless if you feel pro or- or negative Ukraine, the support that we gave them, the way that we outed the intel, the way that we led- led NATO and Europe or whatever through that, I think has also been an exemplary, um, attitude. A stark contrast to the horrible shit we've done in Iraq and Afghanistan. So like, this is good American leadership on a country that deserved to be defended. We did in a really good way. But it's such a politically captive idea that nobody can feel good about it. So, we have this identity in the United States where we all hate each other. Nobody can feel good about anything the United States does. The right hates every... We don't even have like neocons anymore who are at the very least like, "Oh, well, hey, we love our big businesses," because everyone on the right hates big business now. Everyone on the left hates everything about themselves and it's like, "Fuck, like, where's your identity at?" So everyone just like fights with each other, hates each other and it's like, "Well, fuck," you know?

   14. CWChris Williamson17:02

       People coming together and rallying together over shared hatreds is always going to be stronger than people coming together over shared loves. Like almost... Uh, there was a- a study that I s- saw and- and it starts in 2012, if you ask Democrats whether they love Democrats or they like their own party more than they hate the other-

   15. DEDestiny17:21

       Mm-hmm.

   16. CWChris Williamson17:21

       ... in 2012, it flips.

   17. DEDestiny17:22

       Mm-hmm.

   18. CWChris Williamson17:22

       And people are basically protest voting everything. It's, "I'm voting for not the thing that I don't like, as opposed to voting for the thing that I do like."

   19. DEDestiny17:29

       True.

   20. CWChris Williamson17:29

       And this with purity spirals, which is what you said at the beginning, which is if you are bound together over the mutual hatred of an outgroup, you have to continually shave off members on the outside of your own inner group to continue to be more and more pure-

   21. DEDestiny17:43

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CWChris Williamson17:43

       ... and keep on pointing them out as pariahs and scapegoats and say, "That's the person that we're not. I'm not that and I'm not this and I'm not the other." Like, um, white gay privilege. It's like if you're gay but you're also white, kind of not that gay anymore.

   23. DEDestiny17:54

       (laughs) Bro, gay people are like the straight people of like the LGBT shit.

   24. CWChris Williamson17:57

       (laughs)

   25. DEDestiny17:57

       Like I'll see people like, "White gay people? You mean the guys that have all appropriated Black female language?" And I'm like, "Holy shit. Dude, white gay guys have got to be feeling really weird." What was it like... Was it like, what, 30 or 40 years ago they were all dying of AIDS and now they're like next on the chopping block? (laughs) And like holy shit, you know?

   26. CWChris Williamson18:12

       Yep.

   27. DEDestiny18:12

       Jesus, yeah. (laughs)

   28. CWChris Williamson18:13

       Yeah. If you're white and you're gay, you're just not that gay anymore.

   29. DEDestiny18:15

       Yeah.

   30. CWChris Williamson18:16

       Like you're an honorary straight-
4. 19:43 – 30:17

   Are Liberals Less Happy Than Conservatives?

   1. DEDestiny19:43

   2. CWChris Williamson19:43

      Uh, did you see the article saying that liberals are more unhappy than conservatives? There was a bunch of different studies that came out

   3. DEDestiny19:48

      About the two- Um, it was in Atlantic Yeah. ... where the whole thing went extreme two or three days ago, yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson19:51

      Yeah, what do you-

   5. DEDestiny19:51

      Very interesting.

   6. CWChris Williamson19:51

      What do you, what, what are your thoughts off the back of that?

   7. DEDestiny19:55

      Well, the part of what I just told you, I ripped straight from that article, the idea that liberals define themselves by, like, um, like, all the things that they hate. (laughs) So, like, if I'm, like, a white person, I kind of f- have to feel bad about it, because, like, any wealth I have is, like, a privilege that came from, like, the exploitation of people from colonialist mindsets and whites blah, blah, blah. They're like, yeah, that's, that type of mindset is probably really, really, really negative. Um, and I think that, I think that the left, it's, it's... I have this thing on stream that I say where if I'm talking to an audience, I'm always gonna talk from a pretty far-left perspective. We're gonna talk about systems, we're gonna talk about class, we're gonna talk about, like, what are the things that the government can do to create, like, a good environment for you, right? 'Cause that's what I'm concerned about, like, on a broad level. But if I'm giving advice to, like, an individual, I'm gonna be the most hyper, like, anarcho libertarian ever. Like, if I'm talking to somebody, like, "Oh, can I get some advice?" Like, yeah. Here's some advice. You care more about you than anybody else ever will. You're the only one that can improve your situation. Nobody's gonna give you a handout. Nobody gives a fuck about you. You gotta do whatever you can, like, on your own to get ahead in life. And that's it, right? And I, I, I, I talk about this sometimes and people, people sometimes try to call me, like, hypocritical or like, when I give advice to an individual, like, "Well, what do you mean? What, aren't you gonna recognize that it's not fair for this guy? Blah, blah, blah, blah." And it's like, yeah, sure. But to an individual, who the fuck cares, right? Like, you can sit there and blame systems all you want and be a loser, or you can do your best to overcome it. Like, that's all you could do, you know?

   8. CWChris Williamson21:07

      How do you marry those two worldviews then? How do you blend those two?

   9. DEDestiny21:10

      Um, it's v- it's like, it's very, it's very difficult, but like, on a, on a personal level, I understand that I exist as part of a system, and there are some things that are unfair. Uh, but like all you can do is try your best, right? But it's very, very, very difficult as a left-leaning person... Um, you ever play video games?

   10. CWChris Williamson21:30

       Yeah.

   11. DEDestiny21:30

       You ever played League of Legends?

   12. CWChris Williamson21:32

       No.

   13. DEDestiny21:32

       Okay. This must be true of, like, sports. Um, I would imagine. I never played, like, football or basketball, but I i- imagine that in sports, there's probably a, a, a difficulty sometimes where it's easy to blame teammates for your losses, right? Um, I played a, a single player game called StarCraft growing up, and I loved that game. It was one on one. If you lost, it was your fucking fault, full stop. When you play team games, it's very difficult to figure out what's, what's your fault or why did you lose. Was it my teammates? Did they fuck up? And you can get into a mindset we start blaming everybody else, and what happens is you take no personal accountability. And the real mindset for improving in those games, and everybody knows this, even if they're upset at the time, even Yeah. ... if they're upset, they'll tell you. The real mindset for improving is all you can do is take the most responsibility for your own actions as much as you can and try to improve on that. Sometimes you might be in unwinnable games where your teammates are causing you to lose, but who cares? Find out what you can improve on and go forward. And we know that's true for games. We probably know it's true for sports, but then as soon as we come into the real world, it's like, "Oh, you're Black, you didn't get a job? They were probably racist. Oh, you're a woman? Uh, you know, your application got turned over? They were probably sexist." How can you expect that that mindset doesn't fucking destroy a person's ability to navigate the world when they've constantly been told that classes around them are what are keeping them down and the amount of... Yeah. I just, I feel like the amount of personal agency you have goes so low.

   14. CWChris Williamson22:47

       Correct. It rips-

   15. DEDestiny22:47

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson22:47

       It rips the agentic person out, out of it. There was a, a really interesting part where it said that, um, one of the reasons or one of the pos- potential justifications for why it would be the case that liberals are, uh, more depressed is because they correctly perceive injustices in the world. That was Matthew Yglesias's, like, take on it, or that was-

   17. DEDestiny23:09

       It could be potentially, yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson23:11

       That basically they're more in tune with what's going on that's bad. But I, I don't know that, that... Liberal boys are experiencing more depression than conservative girls because of that? Like, because the con, the liberal boys are more in tune than a female who's got all manner of hormones going on and her body image is up in the air and she's 14 years old and she's now a sexual object and God knows what I'm supposed to do with myself, and everyone's treating me in a different way, and I'm becoming a woman, and I'm having periods and all this stuff. And being tapped into injustices is more than that?

   19. DEDestiny23:40

       I mean, it, it, I, I could see it being the case. Um, for me, a lot of stuff related to women has... When, when you get turned on to a lot of the really weird shit that goes a- along with being a woman, especially in like this world, as soon as I notice that, that's a really sad and depressing thing to, to-

   20. CWChris Williamson23:55

       It sucks.

   21. DEDestiny23:55

       ... take into account.

   22. CWChris Williamson23:56

       It does. And this is fucking-

   23. DEDestiny23:57

       Yeah. And as a guy, like, I, like, overlook all of that. And there are so many... I have to be careful now even, like, there will be people that... A, a woman will ask me like, "Oh, like, I'm doing a show with this guy. Like, do you think he's cool?" And I used to be like, "Yeah, this guy's, like, super cool, whatever." And now I know I can never say that about a guy unless I've seen him interact with a woman, 'cause how he interacts with me doesn't fucking matter, 'cause there are guys I've interacted with who's super cool, very polite, like, just like, this is an exemplary dude. He's a really awesome guy. And then, like, I'll see him in another... And in (laughs) in at least one circumstance, he tries to rape a woman that I was, like, friends with. I'm like, "What the fuck is wrong with you, dude?" Um, and it's like an insane fucking world where it's like, yeah, when I get tuned on to some of that stuff, I could definitely see it being more like, "Fuck." Um-When I was a carpet cleaner, that was the point in my life where I was the most libertarian, where I was like, "I need to do what I can. I gotta work hard, I gotta figure this out. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And holy fuck, it wasn't until I got rich that I realized, wow, there is so much of life that is fucking bullshit. Um-

   24. CWChris Williamson24:48

       What like?

   25. DEDestiny24:49

       ... in terms of like how much easier life is in, in every single regard when you become wealthy. Um, I don't know if it's 'cause I was a commuter a lot, but a lot of the misery (laughs) in my life, uh, surrounded... usually it was around my fucking car, okay? (laughs)

   26. CWChris Williamson25:01

       (laughs)

   27. DEDestiny25:01

       I drove a piece of shit car. Um, things like flat tires or speeding tickets, that's like a kick in the ass for like three to six months, depending on how fucked you get, right? If you crack a wheel, anybody from Nebraska that drives on I-80 going back and forth from Omaha to, um, Council Bluffs knows that when it snows, those potholes are fucking insane. That shit will fuck you over. And then like every single bad thing gets worse because of every other thing around us. So like let's say that I crack a wheel. Okay, well, now I gotta call a friend to get the fuck out of here. I have to leave my car somewhere on the side of the road. I've got to write a big sign that says, "Please don't fucking tow me." They're gonna tow you anyway. Now that it gets towed, I've got a $75 fee at least from the state. And now every single day, it sits in this tow yard. It's like an extra $100 that I gotta... And it's just like so much fucking stress. And then as a rich person, it's like I get pulled over for whatever the fuck. I hire a traffic lawyer, make it go away. I don't give a fuck about anything, right? I could go total my car and Uber somewhere else or go to a dealership and buy a n-... I don't... Like it's... The life is so much different for like a wealthy person in so many ways or for like my kid, for example. Um, I'm trying to think of like, well, where do I want him to go to school? It's like I want him to go to a good... I want him to be in the best school district. So I just buy a house in the best school district and then we move there, right? And then over the pandemic, when people have to stay home, right, or even before the pandemic, fuck, my kid is in like first grade and these motherfuckers are getting assigned laptops and they get to, like, take home. I'm like, "Holy shit." And there are other places, North Omaha, South Omaha, where these kids like barely have like functioning textbooks. And I don't know, from the eyes... Like I said, when I was a poor person, like, "Okay, I'm gonna work hard, libertarian, I can do this, blah, blah, blah." But then as a wealthy person, I look around, I was like, "Damn, this is some fuck shit." My life and my kids' life are so much easier now just 'cause I have money versus like what it would be otherwise. And fuck, that kinda sucks, yeah.

   28. CWChris Williamson26:29

       Yeah.

   29. DEDestiny26:29

       So to, to send it back, um, I'm not saying you should be depressed because you see the injustice of the world more or whatever. But I do think that there is something to be said where like when you start to notice more shit, you're like, "Oof, that is kinda like shitty. That does kinda suck."

   30. CWChris Williamson26:41

       Yeah, for the people that haven't read that article, some of the really interesting stuff that I found, uh, there's a 10 percentage points gap between the share of conservative versus liberals who report being very happy in virtually every iteration of the GSS study since 1972.
5. 30:17 – 39:30

   The Problem with Too Much Freedom

   1. CWChris Williamson30:17

      about a good bit recently is kind of the, um, concerns of too much freedom. So if you just blast open all of the doors, you don't need to adhere to any expected traditions. There are no stereotypes, no archetypes. Nothing is grounded in biological fact, and then, you know, perpetuated by culture, which causes everybody to have to find themselves out from first principles. It's like, "You're a man? Okay.There are no expectations for what you're supposed to be as a man, which means that your job, Suno, is to deal with the existential pain, the crushing weight of existence, and just work out what you're supposed to be going forward. I wonder whether unlimited degrees of freedom causes people to just become nihilistic, like existentially fucking crushed. And then they go, "Oh, uh, uh, uh, I don't really know how to do this," and they give up. As opposed to perhaps if you do have some slightly more conflicted, but, uh, slightly more constrained, uh, expectations for a conservative, maybe that does give you guardrails, which actually gives you a little bit more movement in the right direction.

   2. DEDestiny31:09

      Yeah, I think our identity, it- it truly is fractured among every person that we meet. It's fractured in society to some extent. Like, when we think of what does it mean to be successful at XYZ, we tell ourselves a story that it means I want to be the best person that I can be. But that's truly, I think that's a lie. I think what you want to be is you want to be the best person that, like, everybody thinks you can be, or everybody says you can be. Like what does it mean to be the best version of a man? It's not just what you think it means to be a man, it's well, what does everybody think it means to be a man? And then h- and then achieving success on that level where everybody else is looking towards that I think is truly where a lot of the good feelings we have. Because we have, we're social beings, right? We're, we, we socialize, we... That's how humans succeed. We didn't, we never lived as, like, individual hunters. You know, we're very much like pack animals, social creatures. So, if every single person in a society has their own view of everything, some people will be okay, probably a very, very small minority, less than like 2% probably, are like l- like that type of role. I like that type of role. That's fun for me. I'm a very discreet autistic, like, "Oh, whatever." But for most people, um, you want to be the best of what everybody agrees is the best to be. It's kind of, it's like, it's the age old... I remember the '90s and the 2000s, there were lots of jokes like this. Like, "You're unique just like everyone else," you know? When you want to have, like, the most unique and cool fashion, you don't really want the most unique and cool fashion, you want the thing that everybody else wants, but just not everybody else can afford or get. But it has to be something that we all agree is the coolest thing. And then that's what makes you, like, the most unique, you know? But it- but it's- it's this kind of, it's this weird, like, delusion we have where we're like, "Oh, yeah, like, I really do want to be, like, a truly unique and outstanding individual." And it's like, not really, that's terrifying. You just want to fit very neatly within the fold of what's socially acceptable, but you want to do it, like, in the- in the very narrow parts not everybody can afford, you know?

   3. CWChris Williamson32:48

      Is modern liberalism incompatible with happiness on average, do you think, in the way that a lot of people in the sort of super progressive, uh, position hold it?

   4. DEDestiny32:58

      When you're... Okay. In order to truly learn about, like, electronics, when you take things apart, like remotes and shit, you don't learn anything until you actually fucking put it back together, okay? And I think one of the problems we have, especially on the left, is we deconstruct so many different ideas, but we don't ask ourselves, why the fuck were they there the way that they were, you know? I think that-

   5. CWChris Williamson33:18

      Chesterton's Electronics.

   6. DEDestiny33:20

      What?

   7. CWChris Williamson33:20

      Chesterton's Electronics, like Chesterton's Fence.

   8. DEDestiny33:22

      Oh, I have no idea what that is, but I'll say I like it.

   9. CWChris Williamson33:24

      You've not heard of Chesterton's Fence?

   10. DEDestiny33:26

       No, what is that?

   11. CWChris Williamson33:27

       You- you, there is no way that you've gone through your life and not heard of this. So, Chesterton's Fence is, there is a fence in a field-

   12. DEDestiny33:32

       Okay.

   13. CWChris Williamson33:32

       Somebody walks up to it, a conservative or, and a liberal both walk up to it-

   14. DEDestiny33:35

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson33:35

       And it's kind of just a panel of fence in the middle of a field, and they think, "Well, there's- there's no point for this to be here." The conservative presumes someone has put this here, even though I can't work out why it's here, we better leave it.

   16. DEDestiny33:46

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson33:46

       The liberal says there's evidently no use for it, let's tear it down. It's basically don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, or don't throw bathwater out until you've worked out why there might be a baby in there.

   18. DEDestiny33:54

       Okay, sure. That's exactly what I'm talking about basically, yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson33:56

       Yes.

   20. DEDestiny33:56

       Um, yeah, but, so I think we had an issue with that. So when you ask, like, is liberalism, um, you asked is liberalism incompatible with-

   21. CWChris Williamson34:03

       Like the current iteration, the most modern-

   22. DEDestiny34:05

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CWChris Williamson34:05

       2023 version of what most people, like, caricature as liberalism. Is it incompatible with happiness on average?

   24. DEDestiny34:11

       I, I think, I think it can be, but I think we're pushing a little bit too far. We're not asking ourselves, like, you know, are we throwing out the baby with the bathwater, basically. Um, there's a lot of cool things that can happen with deconstructing gender roles, and I think there's a lot of value to throwing out some things. Like, I think that, um, for instance, women can be more successful than we ever thought possible. That seems to be a- a- a thing that we're even more surprised about every single day, especially when it comes to school.

   25. CWChris Williamson34:34

       Correct.

   26. DEDestiny34:35

       But does that mean that we need to have no gender roles whatsoever? Like, do we need to abolish every single thing related to, like, male or female archetypes? Because there's a lot of people that draw a lot of value from those.

   27. CWChris Williamson34:44

       Okay.

   28. DEDestiny34:44

       Probably not, we probably don't have to do that. But people are so keen to get rid of everything that it's hard to ground, like, any of our conversations anymore in- in any type of real thing, you know?

   29. CWChris Williamson34:55

       Yes.

   30. DEDestiny34:56

       Um...
6. 39:30 – 44:30

   How to Overcome Difficulty without Meaning

   1. CWChris Williamson39:30

      again, that I've been thinking about is how this relates to people's, um, lack of capacity or desire or motivation to deal with difficulty or suffering-

   2. DEDestiny39:39

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson39:39

      ... or any kind of, like, anything that requires you to push through hard stuff to find meaning on the other side of it. And I guess it's kinda the same, like, why? Why bother? Now, if the system's rigged against me, if there is no meaning in anything, if having a family, all of the previous, uh, anchors that we would have found meaning from in life, if all of those have been blown open, then, like, fuck it. Like, if I do come up against any kind of difficulty, that should have been snowplowed out of my way before I got here.

   4. DEDestiny40:05

      Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's a different, there's, um, there are two concepts called stress and eustress, where, um-

   5. CWChris Williamson40:12

      Teach me.

   6. DEDestiny40:12

      Yeah, oh my God, I'm so glad a friend taught me this, like, two years ago, 'cause I'd never heard of this before. I was really... One thing that's really difficult for me is I love stress. It is very empowering to me. When I'm in stressful situations, I feel like I'm alive, okay? When people are gunning for my career, writing big things, accusing me of shit, it's very fun for me to navigate those things, just like, "Oh, fuck." Um, and I learned this term a couple years ago, a friend, she read a book called, fuck, it was like The Power of Stress or something. I don't remember, something like that. But she said that, well, she said, "The reason why you probably feel this way is 'cause there's two types of stress. There's stress, which is bad for you. Physiologically, it's a horrible thing, it causes a lot of negative..." And then there's something called eustress, which is similar to when you're stressed, but the difference is for eustress, eustress is when you're going through stressful things, but you feel like you've got tools to deal with it. And stress is when you feel helpless. And despite how weird my upbringing is and my life, whatever, I've never felt helpless. I've always felt like if something is fucked, I'm the only person who's gonna do anything about it, I have to do something, we'll figure it out, you know? I might have to work fucking 16 hours a day, seven days a week, but we're gonna f- we'll do something, you know? So for me, stressful situations are like, okay, it's challenging, but, like, I gotta work my way through it. But when kids don't have the ability to learn how to manage or deal with stressful environments, then stress becomes this, like, horrific, all-encompassing, like, blanket of darkness that falls on you, and you're like, "Fuck, I can't do anything. I'm paralyzed. I don't know what to do," like, and there's so much, and, like, they have no idea how to deal with any of the adversity. So yeah, I, I agree that, like, people today, like, if the adversity is not plowed out of their way, they basically turn into these, like, helpless frumps of nothing that, like, can't deal with anything, yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson41:42

      Yes. Why is that, let's call it fragility to stress. Why is that, um, so prevalent in some corners of the left, do you think?

   8. DEDestiny41:51

      Um-

   9. CWChris Williamson41:52

      Because it seems to me that the right almost identifies itself as being the, even if it's not true, even if this isn't how they show up, it's how they state-

   10. DEDestiny41:59

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson41:59

       ... which is we, like, "I'm built for hard things." Everyone's Tim Kennedy with a fucking knife behind his back. That doesn't seem to be the same on the left at the moment. And that, to me, seems like a self-defeating ideology, because you're making yourself inherently more fragile and less capable of dealing with anything that you come up against-

   12. DEDestiny42:14

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson42:15

       ... including the ideology on the opposite side of the aisle that you say that you fucking hate.

   14. DEDestiny42:19

       Yeah. I, I think that people on the left have to adopt my ideology. I think that you have to teach people about the unfairness of systems and, and all of that. I think it's good to know. It's good to be aware of it. But you also have to treat people as individuals at the end of the day and tell them, like, "Hey, listen, like, despite how unfair the world is or whatever, you can't sit there and cry about it. You have to do something about it." So, you know, um, like, class analysis should be like a medical diagnosis. The, when you go to the hospital and you get a diagnosis for some sort of, like, medical ailment or medical disease or whatever, the-

   15. CWChris Williamson42:46

       Are you from the left? Are you from the right?

   16. DEDestiny42:48

       Sure. The, the reason why you get the diagnosis, the only reason why we have diagnoses for things is because there's a treatment plan, right? So if you talk to someone and you say like, "Hey, listen, you're part of this class, and you might be affected in this way. This is what you have to do about it," right? It has to come paired with that piece of advice. It can't just be, "You're part of this class, so you're fucked. You're part of this, so, like, you'll never get it," you know, right? It's gotta be like, "Okay, well, you have to, you've got this, so keep this in mind. Do this." You know? Um-I, I notice it when it comes to, like, mental ailments, people will do that a lot. Like, on Twitter, people are like, "Oh, like, I've got OCD, I've got ADHD," blah, blah, blah. They'll say all these things, like, okay, well, what are you doing about it? And it's like, "What do you mean, what am I doing about it?" And it's like, well, what the fuck is the point of knowing you have this thing if you're not fucking doing anything about it, right? Or when people say things like, "Oh, I can't do that because of my ADHD." And it's like, what do you mean you can't do that because of your AD- ... if you have ADHD, do something about it. What the fuck? Why would you just use that as an excuse to do nothing, you know?

   17. CWChris Williamson43:35

       What is your vision, or if you were able to try and give some advice to liberals in general, you know, you're coming from the left. As far as I'm concerned, you're the most reasonable person that I listen to, uh, that-

   18. DEDestiny43:47

       Period (laughs) . No, I'm just kidding.

   19. CWChris Williamson43:48

       Look-

   20. DEDestiny43:49

       (laughs)

   21. CWChris Williamson43:49

       ... close. I, dude, I, I really, I really appreciate the stuff that you put out.

   22. DEDestiny43:52

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CWChris Williamson43:52

       I think b- both me and a bunch of people from Austin who would not really listen to anybody that was coming from that side of a talking point are like, "Fucking Destiny keeps on getting these things right, as far-"

   24. DEDestiny44:01

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson44:01

       "... as I can see. And even if it's not the background that I come from," like, fuck yeah, like that's reasonable, it's well-balanced, it's understanding, it's agentic, it's aspirational, which I think is really, really fucking important. Like, if the vision that you put forward for somebody is to be this, like, cucked victim that is completely at the mercy of the world around you, who, who rea- ... like, how are you selling this to almost anybody that wants to have a grand vision for their life?

   26. DEDestiny44:27

       Mm-hmm.

   27. CWChris Williamson44:28

       What is the ...

7. 44:30 – 52:08

   The Future of the Progressive Left

   1. CWChris Williamson44:30

      first off, what's your prediction for the way that the left moves for- not what do you want to happen, but given where we're at, the progressive eating itself, et cetera, et cetera, is that going to correct, self-correct, and move more back toward this vision that you've got and something from the late '90s, early 2000s? Or is this continuing to run away with itself into an extreme?

   2. DEDestiny44:50

      I think it's kinda sad, but I think the left, I think the progressives are starting to fall apart. I don't think whatever comes next will call themselves progressive. Like, I still do, but I have to qualify it a lot because I don't want people to instantly assume a bunch of things about me. Um, if you've been watching it online, have you seen, like, The Young Turks?

   3. CWChris Williamson45:03

      Correct. Yeah, tell me-

   4. DEDestiny45:04

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson45:04

      ... te- w- explain to people briefly what's happened with The Young Turks.

   6. DEDestiny45:07

      Um, well, if you've watched my stream, they're basically going through what I went through three years ago (laughs) where, um ... it was really funny because, like, um, Ana was saying on, uh, on The Young Turks, she was like, "I'm tired of working with these leftists. They come on this show, they build up a big audience, and then they leave the show, and they act like they never heard you before, and they just start trashing you." And I've, I've, I've ... without naming names, I've had people do the exact same thing to me. And it's funny because, like, if I, um, if I leave somebody's show and then if somebody asks me something in the future ... I think I've had people ask me about you because I, I think that you're a bit more into some of the manosphere red pill stuff than I think I am.

   7. CWChris Williamson45:43

      Tangential.

   8. DEDestiny45:43

      I think so, yeah, in terms of some of your takes. And I wanna say, people can find it if I'm wrong. But, like, if people ask me about you, um, if I see a clip of you, I'm gonna say, "I talked to him on a podcast. He seems like a pretty reasonable guy. We might have some disagreements here." Tha- I think that would be about my take. But I feel like other people will come away, like, imagine you're me and then I'm, like, a random leftist. Somebody would show me one clip of you and they'd be like, "Oh, he probably fucking hates women. That guy is just a fucking piece of shit." And it's like, wh- h- ... you talked to this guy, you were on this guy's show, or sometimes you had extended relations with these people, but as soon as they do one thing wrong, it's like the backlash is fucking insane.

   9. CWChris Williamson46:16

      Mm. So-

   10. DEDestiny46:16

       And it happens so much with progressives, where for Ana, um, it was over two big things. One is she had something to say about homeless people, uh, because there was some homeless guy in Seattle or San Francisco that attacked a woman on the street. This happened a few year, uh, I think a year or two ago.

   11. CWChris Williamson46:30

       I didn't see this.

   12. DEDestiny46:30

       Oh, yeah. It was a huge thing, and she was like, "This is crazy. This guy should be in jail." And all the progressives were like, "You can't just put homeless people in jail. They're our unhoused neighbors," and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, "Oh my God." There was that big thing. That was a year or two ago with Ana. And then recently, it was over the, um, uh-

   13. CWChris Williamson46:45

       Don't call me a boom-

   14. DEDestiny46:46

       Bir- ... um-

   15. CWChris Williamson46:46

       ... womb, womb haver or whatever the fuck.

   16. DEDestiny46:47

       (laughs) Yeah, a birthing person or whatever.

   17. CWChris Williamson46:49

       Birthing person.

   18. DEDestiny46:49

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson46:50

       Womb haver, whatever.

   20. DEDestiny46:50

       And everybody was like, "Oh, you're fucking transphobic and you hate trans people." It's like, bro, The Young Turks are, like, avowedly progressive. Like, these guys aren't even like Democrats. These guys are, like, progressive. And you guys are sh-

   21. CWChris Williamson46:59

       Purity spiral.

   22. DEDestiny47:00

       Yeah, holy shit.

   23. CWChris Williamson47:01

       Purity spiral kicking in yet again.

   24. DEDestiny47:03

       So like, I, I don't think that's gonna las- ... if you're getting, like, The Young Turks breaking off your movement, like, I don't think that's gonna last for very much longer. And again, like you said, like, these people have, like, no fucking tenacity to deal with anything, so they all eat themselves alive, they all have very low ability to cope or deal with adversity. Their, it's just, like, a horrible ... yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson47:20

       We'll get back to Destiny in one minute, but first, I need to tell you about Whoop. Whoop is the best fitness tracker that I've ever found. I used it for four and a half years, long before they ever sponsored the podcast. And it literally tracks everything, your heart rate variability, your resting heart rate, how much you're breathing throughout the night, your recovery, your sleep, your training, absolutely everything. Not only that, but it spits out a bunch of suggestions about how you can improve yourself, how you can make better choices with regards to your training and your rest. Also, there is no joining fee, a free first month, and a 30-day money-back guarantee. So, you can buy it for free, try it for free, and if you do not like it after 29 days, they'll give you your money back. Head to join.whoop.com/modernwisdom. That's join.whoop.com/modernwisdom. Someone called you alt-left. I didn't even know that was a thing.

   26. DEDestiny48:09

       It's ... oh, no. When you say someone, are you talking about the squirrel?

   27. CWChris Williamson48:12

       No, someone replied to me on Twitter.

   28. DEDestiny48:14

       Oh.

   29. CWChris Williamson48:14

       They basically said, um, "Interesting conversation you had about such and such recently. Uh, would love to see someone from the left's take." And I replied and said, "Interesting. I've got Destiny coming on in a week's time." Like, basically, you're not a real leftist or alt-left was, like, a way to discard the fact that I was bringing you on that wasn't left enough.

   30. DEDestiny48:31

       Mm-hmm.
8. 52:08 – 1:06:00

   Will the Trad Movement Succeed?

   1. DEDestiny52:08

   2. CWChris Williamson52:08

      Okay, okay. So if, if the progressive thing isn't viable, does that mean that the trad thing's viable?

   3. DEDestiny52:13

      Uh, no.

   4. CWChris Williamson52:14

      (laughs)

   5. DEDestiny52:15

      Absolutely not. Absolutely not. And this is what I ... This is kind of what ... This is what frustrates me so much, is that progressive are obviously fucking lost, but then, like, conservatives or some of the trad people are like, "Okay, we're gonna go back to being trad." No, you're not. We're never getting rid of abortion. We're never getting rid of birth control. Women are working in ways that they never have before, and they have so much control over reproduction that the world is fundamentally changed.

   6. CWChris Williamson52:36

      Yep.

   7. DEDestiny52:37

      And whatever we go forward with in the world, it has to take into account those two realities. So anybody that's walking out here expecting that men can get women with paychecks or by being alpha, you're ... Everything you're saying is, doesn't matter anymore. You're, you're talking about a world that doesn't exist anymore. Um, and anybody that's talking about, like, very traditional roles in terms of, like, who's earning more money in the house or whatever, you're probably not relevant anymore. So we have to carve out some world in the future where we have some idea of a masculine or male archetype that's compatible with the fact that your wife might be earning or even out-earning you, right? That has to be a thing, because wh- once Pandora's box is open in terms of, like, the reproduction shit and the working shit-

   8. CWChris Williamson53:15

      Yep.

   9. DEDestiny53:15

      ... it's just not gonna go away. Women aren't going back to, to what they were before. That's not gonna happen. And it sucks because, like, it would be interesting to see a lot of, like, trad talks in that direction. There's only ... You know what? There's only one person I've ever heard give a good take on trad relationships, and it was fucking Ben Shapiro. Did you see Ben Shapiro's, uh, conversation with Lex Fridman?

   10. CWChris Williamson53:34

       Bits of it.

   11. DEDestiny53:35

       Uh, I come from a very conservative background. I grew up Catholic. And when I listen to traditional people talk about male/female relationships, the fact that the woman was staying in the house, it was always something that was spoken about with the utmost amount of respect. Um, a woman might stay in the house, but, like, this, this whole ... The, the way that, like, the father is the leader, like, it's kind of true, but it was always with consultation and consent-

   12. CWChris Williamson53:59

       In exchange reverence for the-

   13. DEDestiny53:59

       ... and cooperate. Yes.

   14. CWChris Williamson54:00

       Yeah.

   15. DEDestiny54:00

       Always. And the way that people talk about it today is with such fucking derision and hatred for women, and are like, "Oh, yeah. Like, she stays in the house. The man is the leader. The man is in charge." And it's like even the sitcoms before, even when the fathers were highly competent, show that the woman was very much an important figure. Bill Cosby was, like ... Was he a doctor or a dentist? And, like, his wife ... Like, even he was scared of his wife. Um, in The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, um, the uncle, um, Uncle Phil was a fucking high-powered attorney lawyer, and his wife was very scary, right? That was always the case with the women's group.

   16. CWChris Williamson54:29

       And when you roll that forward into the period where men became the clowns, the Homer Simpsons of the world-

   17. DEDestiny54:35

       Mm-hmm.

   18. CWChris Williamson54:35

       ... the Peter Griffins of the world-

   19. DEDestiny54:36

       Mm-hmm.

   20. CWChris Williamson54:37

       ... it's even more. It's the-

   21. DEDestiny54:38

       Sure.

   22. CWChris Williamson54:38

       ... woman that is the competent one, she's the one that's balanced, she runs the home, she runs the man.

   23. DEDestiny54:41

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson54:42

       Yeah.

   25. DEDestiny54:42

       Yeah, even in a traditional sense. So, like, when, when the trad people talk about this ... This is one of my big complaints about, like, red pillars, is there's always so much adversity between men and women-

   26. CWChris Williamson54:49

       Correct.

   27. DEDestiny54:49

       ... rather than, like, cooperation. So any trad thing going forward, um, it, it ... I don't think there's anything wrong with trad stuff. Some of it is fun. Um, like, some masculine and feminine roles can be fun in the bedroom, out of the bedroom, whatever. But it just has to be done with respect to where the, kind of, like, the labor market is and the education and everything and the reproductive rights are today, 'cause that's not gonna change, so it has to incorporate that going forward.

   28. CWChris Williamson55:08

       How do you square the circle of, uh, women's, I'm gonna call it over, uh, success, but-

   29. DEDestiny55:14

       Mm-hmm.

   30. CWChris Williamson55:14

       ... women's increased success in both education, employment, and status, with the fact that, on average, women want to date a man who's-... as educated or more, as employed or more-

Episode duration: 1:39:57