Modern WisdomWhy Everyone Is Drowning In Debt (and how to get out) - Caleb Hammer
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
125 min read · 24,510 words- 0:00 – 5:44
Does Caleb Really Get Death Threats?
- CWChris Williamson
How do you describe what you do for work?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Depends the viewer. If I'm talking to the nice little church lady, I'd tell her I'm helping, h- helping young folks and some old folks with their money. If I'm just talking to just a random person out on the street, I'd say I'm yelling at a bunch of retards who suck with money-
- CWChris Williamson
[laughs]
- CHCaleb Hammer
... and roasting them along the way, and having a lot of fun doing it.
- CWChris Williamson
I was gonna ask why you get death threats, but you've kind of precluded that.
- CHCaleb Hammer
I mean, I don't understand. Like, okay, if you come on Financial Audit, you would come through a multi-week onboarding process and give me all these things. Like, uh, let's pretend you didn't want to- me to make fun of your curly hair for whatever reason.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
You would tell me that. You would tell the producers that, 'cause we ask you what you don't want.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, veto in advance.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- CHCaleb Hammer
So we don't bring it up. So, and then I get consent to make fun of everything else.
- CWChris Williamson
Like a sensitivity about my curly hair.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Exactly. So why get death threats for making fun of things that someone gave me explicit permission to make fun of-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm
- CHCaleb Hammer
... makes no sense. It's the being offended on behalf of someone who's not offended. I will never get it. I'm not the person. I've never been that pers-... I, I don't understand it.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. The white knighting?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- CHCaleb Hammer
The, the moral hero, the... You're on your moral horse and, I don't know, you want your TikTok community to raise you up, I guess.
- CWChris Williamson
I-
- CHCaleb Hammer
It makes you feel good. You get views
- CWChris Williamson
... it's one of the, my least favorite categories of people are those that their morality stands on the shoulders of other people that they're saying are worse than them.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, don't look at how good I am, because I don't want that scrutiny on me. Just look at how bad they are, and implicitly that makes me feel like a person that's of higher moral standing. It's pretty iffy.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah. We had, um... Uh, when we were filming this episode, we had a guest on, on our episode that uploaded yesterday, and I brought in one of my coworkers, employees, also friends, Tyler. Black dude, big Black dude, very intimidating, could beat the shit out of anyone. And, like, the guy where you were sitting is a piece of shit racist. Like, an actual racist. He was like-
- CWChris Williamson
Did you do this on purpose?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Cast him?
- CWChris Williamson
You brought a Black person in with somebody that you knew would be racist?
- CHCaleb Hammer
So the guy was sitting where you sat, and he said, "You know, I'm one of those people that says things that need to be said." And I was like, "Okay, pause." Brought in the guy that w- he would actually have a consequence.
- 5:44 – 18:03
Does Gen Z Actually Have It Harder Financially?
- CWChris Williamson
Do you think it's genuinely harder for young people today, or are expectations the problem?
- CHCaleb Hammer
It's harder to do certain things. I mean, you're not gonna be able to do the single income household thing. Like, that's gonna be hard. There's gonna be harder things, right? That's gonna be harder. Buying your first home's gonna be harder. Um, you know, getting your first car might be harder. Uh, it depends, you know, how you do it. That one's definitely a hit or miss for sure. Um- That, that's gonna be harder. But being independent in terms of groceries or rent or getting a comfy office job that is relatively decent paying, like we've never had it better than ever before. Now, you can take a snapshot in time. This year, this period in exact time, yeah, for college graduates it's objectively shit. That's just an economic situation, not a general, uh, generational situation. 'Cause five years ago, college graduates had it great. They were entering the best job market in the history of humanity, essentially, when that pandemic money was just flowing from tech companies, anyone could get a job. But now it's objectively not, but that's a period in time, not a generational thing.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
So the cost of practically every category of life spending as a percentage of income has dramatically dropped since the 1950s, besides a few things that are very important. Buying a house, healthcare, and borrowing for school. Borrowing for school, do you have to do that? You know, there's different paths. We can talk community college, we can talk apprenticeships, trade schools. Okay, so there's flexibility there. House, you don't have to buy a house when, you know, if you're a young person right now. You don't have to. Even... And even if you do, that actually might be a worse use of your money than in just investing in the S&P 500. Healthcare, yeah, that one's fucked. Can't really control that one. That's a mess. So if something bad happens to you, that's when-
- CWChris Williamson
What's happened to the cost of healthcare over time?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Oh, it's just endlessly. There are premiums, and if an emergency happens. Healthcare is one of those issues that's actually really interesting when it comes up on the show, because I get very invested in trying to learn as much as I can about the personal finance categories across the board. But for healthcare, for some reason, I've just missed it, 'cause this is one of those things that was never my passion, so I never fully dove into the reason, the why, and how. I just make sure, you know, I have the general necessity, the, the things that someone would need to make sure they're getting a halfway decent plan through their job and whatnot.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Making sure their premiums aren't completely out of control, that they can afford their co-pays, that they have their highest deductible taken care of in the case of an emergency.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
But speaking on the cost of healthcare, you know, this is... It's definitely out of all things in the financial world, not my expertise. And I said, I said that on another podcast that hasn't come out yet, and now that it's come up in two podcasts in a row, in a row, I'm just... You know, I need to educate the fuck out of myself on healthcare. 'Cause it's very curious, 'cause housing, could talk about housing all day. Cost of college and school, I could talk about that all day, but not healthcare.
- CWChris Williamson
It's one of the big three.
- CHCaleb Hammer
One of the big three.
- CWChris Williamson
Housing, healthcare, school.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And you know a lot about the first, the first and the last, but the middle one is a lot-
- CHCaleb Hammer
'Cause it's a lot more that you can control. So I'm interested in the things you can control. It's very difficult for people to be able to control their actual healthcare situation-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm
- CHCaleb Hammer
... whether or not they have a pre-diagnosis or there's only a few plans offered that will work.
- CWChris Williamson
Get into an accident.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah, exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
But school and housing, there's a lot more control, and financial audit's more about what things you can control.
- CWChris Williamson
It's interesting that you said as a percentage of earnings, the cost of living in almost all areas-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm, including fun
- CWChris Williamson
... has be- has become more affordable-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... except for three that are fucking massive.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Massive.
- CWChris Williamson
And those three have done so much damage-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm
- 18:03 – 21:04
The Hidden Costs of Bankruptcy
- CWChris Williamson
What are the hidden costs to bankruptcy that no one wants to talk about?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Uh, I mean, usually it costs a co- costs a couple thousand bucks to go through it, go through the process, and get a lawyer on your side, um, some court filings. Um- There is the credit impact. There is the credit impact, seven to 10 years depending. And with that, that could f- really make it more expensive to get into an apartment.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
'Cause that's usually, instead of just as a security deposit, you might have to do first month, last month 'cause you're riskier.
- CWChris Williamson
That includes, that includes rent, not just buying.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah. Yeah, just rent.
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Instead of just doing a security deposit like someone with a decent credit score, you might have to do first month, last month as well, which makes it very burdensome to get into an apartment, but you're in a risk... You're a riskier person. You have bankruptcy.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
And a lot of people have apartment collections, so it's not surprising they would request that. Um, uh, you would have to get into a predatory car loan if your car breaks down and you don't have money. You have to get a 25% interest rate car, uh, just on a horrible, like, eight-year term, and it's probably some piece of shit car that you buy for 20 is worth 15 before it's even driven off. Uh, then the credit cards you get, you're not getting the, the good intro 0% cards. You're like, you're getting credit one cards at 29% with monthly fees, even if you pay on time. So you just get access to worse services in the world of debts. You're not getting approved for decent personal loans. And again, like I said, the most important thing, bankruptcy doesn't actually fix anything unless you fix your behavior.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
'Cause just like consolidating your debt or transferring to another credit card or, um, even letting things go to collections and negotiating them, just like, just like all those, bankruptcy, if you do not change the, your behavior that got you into that situation in the first place, you will literally end up right back there again in a few years. We've had a f- we've had quite a few upper aged people on our show that have been through bankruptcy multiple times, and now they're heading there again.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
'Cause it changes nothing.
- CWChris Williamson
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- 21:04 – 24:14
Why People Fall Into Debt
- CWChris Williamson
What's the biggest misconception people have about why humans end up in debt?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Um, well, a lot of it, and it's not necessarily a misconception, but it's the wrong way to look at it, is because of an emergency. Like, yeah, if you have $0, something happens, you would have to probably go into debt for that. But people don't look at what happened before then. They were living their life, spending whatever they wanted on fun. They never saved up even a one-month emergency fund or a highest deductible coverage. They didn't save up anything. So of course, when an emergency happens, you're gonna go into debt. But it wasn't the emergency d- that did that. It was you living your life, not saving up even a three-month emergency fund, which I would recommend six, by the way. But it's not saving that got you into that emergency debt, not the emergency itself. It was your behavior before that emergency.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. Yeah. It... I don't know. It seems to me like a lot of financial success, it has a knowledge component of understanding the physics of the system.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But a huge part of it is emotional regulation.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
What's the relative amount of knowledge versus emotional regulation when it comes to being good with money?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Depends where someone comes from. I mean, so I'm in a place of privilege now, you could say. I have information, and yet I look like this. I know what it takes to lose this. This is knowl- this is, this is... I have the knowledge. This is all behavior at this point. I got the tits. I got the tits 'cause I'm choosing that.
- CWChris Williamson
Some people pay for them.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Some people do. I would pay to lose them.
- CWChris Williamson
You got yours free.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yes. I'd pay to lose them, but instead I'm just not doing the work that would be required to lose it. I have the knowledge, don't have the behavior.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- CHCaleb Hammer
So there are people in those financial situations. There are gonna be the people that come from a very different life, incredibly low income, no opportunity in their neighborhoods, no people to look up to, maybe even bad internet, so they don't even get to watch the same podcast as us, don't have a good library to go read a good personal finance book. Um, and I don't wanna just victimize someone or infantilize someone, but there are harder situations to come from.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Doesn't mean they can't get out of it. It just might be a little more difficult, and you need to surround yourself with the right people.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you find it difficult when somebody comes in front of you, and a lot of the time it is because of decisions that someone has made and this illustrious, uh, like, s- a tailwind that you've had of all of these people that have made bad decisions, and then somebody comes in front of you who has come from a situation which has put them so far on the back foot financially?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you sometimes find it hard to change gears with them as opposed to sort of pointing the finger too much to actually be like, "Oh, I, I see you. I see you in this problem that you're going through and that you've been s- you've been put into"?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah, I mean, we really only allow people on the show where it's their fault 'cause it's a personal behavior show. So anyone that complains about the people on our show saying that, well, they can't control that, no, everyone that comes on our show, they can control. If someone applies and it's something out of their control, something like an incredible medical diagnosis, that's where we send them, like, a page of resources and, like, if we can connect you with anyone, let us know. But it doesn't make sense for Financial Audit because-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm
- CHCaleb Hammer
... Financial Audit is about personal change. So we ju- we just don't have those people 'cause that's not the conversation.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- 24:14 – 25:37
The Personality Traits Behind Financial Success
- CWChris Williamson
What... Going back to personality traits, what do you think are the personality traits that predict financial success?
- CHCaleb Hammer
That predict financial success. Certainly being disciplined. I mean, discipline comes down to everything. Um- Everything in the world of budgeting comes from, or money comes from budgeting, and budgeting's all about discipline. So, you know, that's why we created Dollarwise, that personal finance app, that budgeting app that is made for the everyman, not just like the, you know, super financial nerds who wanna use things like YNAB, things like that, that are incredibly difficult to use. Um, they have the discipline to actually log into that app, connect their accounts to their banks, see where things are going, and take the actions on the advice that's given to them based on their actual financial information that's plugged in. Without the discipline, even a tool like Dollarwise that is incredibly useful to changing people's lives, you got nothing.
- CWChris Williamson
It's like you could be tracking all of your calories using MacroFactor or something-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Exactly
- CWChris Williamson
... but if you're not gonna change what you're eating, it doesn't make a difference.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah, it's discipline. If you don't-- People, people are excited when they leave Financial Audit or they watch Financial Audit, and even me like a diet.
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Even me like a diet, if you did a fitness audit on me, I might be excited for a couple weeks. Then, you know, if you don't have the discipline, sometimes you fall back. It's easy to have a fire under your ass for a couple weeks.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Uh, if you don't have that discipline for the long term, it's difficult. It really is.
- 25:37 – 27:29
How Debt Impacts Your Identity
- CWChris Williamson
What does debt do to someone's identity?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Well, unfortunately, it turns a lot of people into victims that they're really not. Um, a lot of people have more control than they're really willing to admit. What does it do to their identity? That's interesting. Some people use debt to improve their identity more than anything. You know, pulling up, you really care what the person next to you at the stoplight thinks about your car. I don't know why people care about that. I've never cared about that. Um, a lot of people use debt to get the clothes that make them look good, the jewelry that makes them look good. Unfortunately, actually, that quality tends to come from lower income communities anyway. It's kinda crazy how that works. But, um, people use debt to change their identity, but then people also use their identity of debt to put themselves in a place of victimhood and like-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- CHCaleb Hammer
... "Oh, I'm in debt. I can't, I can't do anything. I may as well just spend the money. I already have the credit card debt, let me just put it on a credit card again. What's an extra $10 gonna do to $5,000?" And the answer's not much, but it's a death of a thousand cuts. They just think that over and over again.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's a very strange sort of death debt spiral where the sunk cost fallacy of this is already bad, what does it matter if it's a bit worse?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And also, if you're stressed with finances, you probably want something that makes you feel a bit less shitty.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
That could be food. I'm gonna sedate myself from my financial troubles by further ingraining myself into my financial troubles, which also becomes a spiral of itself.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah, and that was totally me in college. You know, when I had a lot of bad debt, uh, car debt, student loans, private student loans, multiple credit cards, and family debt. I absolutely went to McDonald's, swiped the Chase Freedom Card, getting it close to maxing out constantly, and 'cause it felt good.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
What did it matter? It was basically maxed out anyway. What's an actual maxed out credit card gonna do?
- 27:29 – 36:15
The Trap of Lifestyle Inflation
- CWChris Williamson
Do you think lifestyle inflation's become a bigger problem than inflation itself?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Ooh, bigger problem. I wouldn't say-- Ooh, that's a good question. You're a professional podcast host. That's nice. Damn. Um, I would say inflation is worse overall. I'd say worse overall 'cause that impacts everyone. That's not your choice, right? Such a choice. But I'd say on a, on a personal level, yeah. No, that's bad. That's bad. That's gonna, that's gonna fuck you over when someone gets the 20%. No, no one gets a 20% raise. Okay, when someone gets a 5% raise, but increases their spending 6%. You know, that, that is very common on our show. You know what's interesting? The people on Financial Audit that are doing worse are the highest income earning episodes. People often, um, you know, you open the show with, uh, getting death threats and stuff. Uh, death threats and it's kinda minimal, but we do get lots of complaints and stuff about the show. One of our biggest complaints is, you know, I'm yelling and making fun of poor people.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Those are actually the people I usually make fun of and yell at the least. It is the high income earners that if they just fix a couple things, they can get out of debt pretty quickly. But they also get into worse debt because they have a higher income, so they get approved for more debt.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
They're always the worst off. They lifestyle inflate. I swear the closer they get from 100 to 200 to even a half a million dollars a year, the worse debt, the more credit cards, the more timeshares, the more cars, the more bullshit they have. It's, it's impressive. It's so bad.
- CWChris Williamson
It feels, I think probably incredible to a lot of people that you could earn half a million a year and have a bad financial situation.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Which I wouldn't be surprised if the majority in the United States did, who make that much.
- CWChris Williamson
Why?
- CHCaleb Hammer
You have a half a million. Go get yourself the nice house. Go get yourself the nice car, the nice clothes. Why not? You worked hard. Deserve it. It's in our culture. We want, we're consumers.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you think that, uh, the things that richer people waste money on are different to the things that poorer people waste money on?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Absolutely. I'm trying to get over my fear of flights, and I guess I'm rich now, so that's nice. Knock on wood with all that.
- CWChris Williamson
Does that help you get over your fear of flights?
- CHCaleb Hammer
I rented a PJ. Tell me. So-
- CWChris Williamson
That'll help
- CHCaleb Hammer
... that's a waste of money.
- CWChris Williamson
Is that easier or easier or harder?
- CHCaleb Hammer
So it's a control thing for me. I don't like being stuck in a situation that I can't control.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you know how to fly the PJ?
- CHCaleb Hammer
No, but I can say, "Let's land." I can't do that with a commercial jet. [chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, well, you can. You could make a big enough fuss that you would like-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Exactly
- CWChris Williamson
... but it would be a real headache.
- CHCaleb Hammer
And bad for my career too, so. [chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
That would be a real headache.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah, but like, um, uh, so it gave me-
- CWChris Williamson
What was your f- I mean, pause.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
What was the first time with your travel anxiety getting on a PJ like?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Um, it was f- Oh, the PJ itself, it was actually really bad. Uh, and we filmed it too.
- 36:15 – 39:23
The Best Way to Handle Anxious Guests
- CWChris Williamson
What is your process? Somebody is sitting opposite you. You're pushing, you're pushing, you're pushing.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
They're realizing how... Well, actually just explain to me what you think is happening inside of them, inside of their mind. Somebody's got a lot of debt. Maybe they've been hiding from it.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, what's their emotion before? What do they get to? And then I'm interested in what you do to Bring them back into land as well
- CHCaleb Hammer
Well, usually I can tell they kind of just go flat-faced in that moment. Like they, they disengage, their eyes just kind of go blank and maybe even like a little bluish.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Um, and I'm like, "Oh, shit. Okay." So we just literally pause. I'm like, "Hey, you okay?" You know, I go from the crazy voice to like just down to like, "Hey, you okay? Remember," you know. It's like, of course they know it's like real and everything, but I'm like, "Yeah, we can take a pause. You know, you can take a break." And then I help them through. If they're like actually having an anxiety attack, I'll do like a breathing exercise real quick. It's like three in, six out.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
And, um, that's pretty rare these days. But, uh, and we definitely have people that need to do like a lap around the building. Our producer will take them or they need to go outside and hit a vape.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, is that rare, do you think? Yeah, hit a vape. That's good.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That's why, Jared, I need a fucking e-pipe. For the people that are listening, I require-- I want to be able to come up with-- I want to be able to pontificate, uh, but I want to be able to do it with nicotine. So if anyone can find me a pipe that looks legitimate like this, but I can have some nicotine in that, that would be lovely. Um, I wonder whether part of the reason that you're not inducing as many panic attacks is because you're getting soft in your old age.
- CHCaleb Hammer
You think so?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I wonder whether it's because you've taken your foot off the gas.
- CHCaleb Hammer
I just threw something at someone the other day.
- CWChris Williamson
[laughs]
- CHCaleb Hammer
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
You'd be fucked here. There's so many projectiles.
- CHCaleb Hammer
I know.
- CWChris Williamson
There's so many potential projectiles. Some of them are heavy as well.
- CHCaleb Hammer
No, honestly, I am proud of it. I think our, our onboarding process is so thorough. We've had people that have, uh, come to work with us or people that interviewed with us that have worked for like Dr. Phil and a lot of other type shows. Dr. Phil's close in Dallas, so that's why-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- CHCaleb Hammer
... him specifically. But they go through our process and they're like, "This is crazy. I've never seen an onboarding process like, process like this at all." 'Cause usually for like, I'm not speaking Dr. Phil at all, don't sue me, but many shows like that, daytime TV, they don't give a fuck about their guests. But we actually really care, 'cause one, they're members of our audience, so a little selfish there, okay? A little selfish. I want members of our audience to do well.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, if you kill them, you're gonna reduce the audience size.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yes, exactly. And I want them to do well, whether that's... You know, you could look at it from two perspectives. Pretend like you hate me and I'm the selfish most piece of shit ever. Fine. Take that. Obviously, I want them to do well 'cause it proves the show works.
- CWChris Williamson
Do it in spite of me or do it because of me.
- CHCaleb Hammer
It shows that it works.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- CHCaleb Hammer
It shows that the show works. So selfishly, it helps me.
- 39:23 – 44:26
Knowledge vs Discomfort: What Makes the Biggest Impact?
- CWChris Williamson
How much of that impact that you have on people's debt do you think is because of the knowledge that you give to them? And how much do you think is because of the intensity of the emotional discomfort-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... that you put them through?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah, I... it's a mixture of both. There is the, that tough love, crazy, and fun approach of it. Like I think oftentimes 90% of the time they're having a good time too. Like they know the craziness of the show. So but they have fun. And, uh, that's not for everyone, but I'll-- don't come on the show if it's not for you. So it's like a show I would actually personally go on. When I was in debt, it would've worked for me. Someone screaming at me, that works for me. It worked for me when I played sports. You know, it, it's whatever. It works for me. Um, and then we set them up with lots of tools afterwards. They get DollarWise for free forever, no matter what. They get all of our personal finance courses. They get a certification through CourseCareers to help with their jobs. They get acc- any kind of resource that we're working with third party, they get access to.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
So we try to give them everything, and then we check in with them. I don't remember the exact dates, but it's like the day their episode goes live, a week after that, a month after that, and then three months after that. And we do two updates a week with former guests on our, in our Hammer Elite membership. Um, and, uh, we're endlessly checking in with them with surveys, and we tell them to reach out anytime they want. So there's the mixture of the show and that lights a fire under their ass-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- CHCaleb Hammer
... and the post-filming support as well.
- CWChris Williamson
Post-coital care process.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, I did Love Island 11 years ago, and, uh, famously the UK series, I don't know whether it's happened in America yet, but the UK series of Love Island has killed more people than any other TV show. Uh, two past stars took their own lives, one of whom was a really good friend of mine.
- CHCaleb Hammer
That's crazy.
- CWChris Williamson
Then the fucking host took her own life. Caroline-
- CHCaleb Hammer
What is going on there?
- CWChris Williamson
Caroline Flack. Yeah, I just-- I... Once, ugh, that's strange. Twice, you're like, "Uh." Three times, including the host, you're like, "There's a fucking pattern here." Uh, but one of the issues, and this was something that I saw especially, I think Love Island broke the App Store when it came out. It was the number one app in the world above ChatGPT, above fucking Claude. Uh, and it like, there was shutdowns on servers and shit, like 300,000 concurrent downloads at a moment, like downloading the app to watch the... I don't know what it, I don't know what you do. Voting on it or something maybe.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And, um, the post-show care routine thing, 'cause I did the fir-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... I was the first person through the doors of the first ever episode.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Wow.
- CWChris Williamson
Right? Of the first season.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
So they were-- we were the, the guinea pig. We were the first child-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... where you make all of the mistakes, you drink when you're pregnant, you smoke in, like you fucking forget to feed it for 12 hours, like all of that stuff. And, um, once you finish up, you should have a support system as you get thrust back out into the world. Now, the first season that I did was like way smaller. It was 10 times-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yes
- CWChris Williamson
... smaller than Season 2, which was 10 times smaller than Season 3, which-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... it really sort of took off on that exponential. But had it have been even a bit more exposed, there was the least amount of post-show support.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm.
- 44:26 – 49:25
Why Behaviour Is the Real Fix for Money Problems
- CWChris Williamson
what, what income level do people's financial problems fundamentally change? Where is-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Well, I'm not saying it's behavior. It's fully behavior. Again, like I said, um, the worst situations I've seen in the entire show are high income earners. Absolutely horrible. So I, I'd say never. It gives you more opportunity to get out of a bad situation.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
But I wouldn't say the income levels... Everyone thinks when they make the next $10,000 in their income, their entire life's gonna change. Their spending changes, but if their behavior's the same, if their inclinations are the same, their lack of discipline is the same, they're actually just gonna be in a worse situation. So I would actually argue that if behavior doesn't change, at the more income level, your situation might actually get worse.
- CWChris Williamson
Because you now are playing with bigger chips on the table.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
And if you're fucking it up, you've got more access. I di- never thought about that. Such a good point, that you've got more access to credit.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
People think, uh, uh, uh, banks, credit cards think that you are-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... a safer bet. Because of that, you can fuck yourself harder.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah. And I guess I'll put an asterisk on my statement. There is like you gotta hit a base- basic minimum level, right? Like if you can't f- pay for like the cheapest rent in the area, put food on the table, utilities, then obviously anyone that's not making up to that point, yeah, that's a threshold where it's like game changer, 'cause you're just like surviving. But if you can't even hit the survival, like that's not even in the conversation. But typically we don't really allow for that that much in this country, in Western society. I mean, you'll see it, but you know, we have lots of, uh, uh, child support services for low income, uh, food support, um, housing support. It's not perfect. No one's gonna argue it's perfect. But we do have a lot of, a lot of social programs to help those people that are in those lower-
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, friend of the show, Ice Coffee Hour Boys, had Kevin O'Leary on.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And he gave some insight about where he thinks different levels of income impact your lifestyle.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
Can you pull that up for me, Jared? Look at this.
- CWChris Williamson
What would you say are the main four tiers of wealth, where if you hit a certain amount, life-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Well, I tell everybody this: you should strive very hard if you're an entrepreneur to have $5 million in T-bills. Not in anything else, just T-bills, making 3.82% this morning. You know you've made it and you've safeguarded your family for the rest of your life if you can get $5 million liquid in T-bills. Most people that consider themselves very successful entrepreneurs do not have $5 million liquid in T-bills. They don't.
- CWChris Williamson
But what net worth should you be at to h- to justify 5 million in T-bills?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Well, you should be at... The first thing you should do is get to 5 million liquid. Be worth $5 million liquid. That's far more valuable than anything else. Liquidity with wealth is actually a superpower. Most people say I'm very wealthy, but they couldn't raise a million dollars by 2:00 in the afternoon if they tried. It's tied up in all kinds of things they think are worth a lot until the shit hits the fan. The plan is, if you're an entrepreneur, the hardest thing is to make the first million. Really hard. And when you make the first million, put it in T-bills. Just as hard, but not as hard, is to get to 2 million. Two to 3 is actually quite easy, 'cause you've figured something out. But where you get undisciplined is you start buying shit you don't need 'cause your mandate is get to 5 million liquid. I... You have to have 5 million liquid to call yourself a successful entrepreneur. And, and I don't care who sa- who disagrees with me. They're wrong.
- CHCaleb Hammer
I guess I'll be wrong. I mean, no, I, I agree. One of, one of the first goals I had was to get to 5 million as quick as I could. And, and but invested in the stock market. I don't really understand get your first million, put it in low indexing, uh, T-bills.
- CWChris Williamson
What is a T-bill?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Like treasury.
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- CHCaleb Hammer
So I'm not really understanding like putting it in bonds or something. It just makes sense. If, if you make your first million and you're young, let it grow in the marketplace at an average of 8 to 10%, that makes more sense. I mean, I, I guess if you're approaching like 60 and you make your first million off of a business being successful, yeah, put it in something more conservative. But if you have time on your side, unless America collapses, like the stock market's gonna do well.
- CWChris Williamson
Over a long enough time horizon-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... you'll weather any of the little wobbles.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah, exactly. So, um, but I do agree with that 5 million mark, 'cause that 5 million mark, if you do the 4% rule, it's 4% of 5 million, I think, what is that, $60,000 a year? ... something like that. So you live a good middle class income off of that using the 4% rule. So that works. So that was one of my first big goals. It, it's... I don't like the idea of taking the first million you make and then literally just not letting it grow past inflation. That doesn't make any sense. If, if you're getting your first million, you should let it work, have it work for you in the stock market. I'm not saying reinvest it immediately into the business, and certainly he's correct where people start getting money and they start blowing it.
- 49:25 – 52:14
What Financial Milestone Makes People Happiest?
- CWChris Williamson
Is there a financial milestone that creates the most happiness for people?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Um, yeah, a lot of the happiness that can be achieved through wealth, like you can't buy friends, you can't buy family. So a lot of the happiness that can actually be achieved through wealth, I'd say if you can cover-- If you can weather practically any emergency, including like a cancer diagnosis, something really bad. If you can-
- CWChris Williamson
How much money is that?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Uh, I mean, honestly, I think that $5 million's a good marker. That $5 million's a good marker. You, you can really start pulling into it for, you know, a few years if it's like really aggressive, really bad, and you wanna go to the best in the world. Um, so with that, you know you can weather anything. You can even if you blow through the five, hopefully you make it to the other side and you can start bouncing back. But that gives you unlimited flexibility. You don't get to do the crazy things that are super fun. You don't get to do the... You can't buy a PJ. I can't buy a PJ. Now I can rent a short little trip, but, um, I don't think that's what drives happiness. It's a fun thing, moment of happiness. But I think the true happiness that you actually can buy is security.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
And $5 million's a really good number to get to security.
- CWChris Williamson
That sounds like a massive number for people to feel-
- CHCaleb Hammer
It's huge
- CWChris Williamson
... financially secure.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah. But you know you can weather literally practically anything.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
That's the question. Like, you can weather almost everything, uh, with a few hundred thousand dollars set aside. You can, you know, take a while to find a new job if you have a few hundred thousand. But I'm saying if I'm really thinking like you can weather anything, $5 million's a great number-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- CHCaleb Hammer
... to have.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I, I, I totally didn't think about the fact that you can afford to invest in specifically the S&P, just any kind of tracker if you're younger, because there's going to be some movements, there's gonna be periods of downturn, but over a long enough time horizon. And I mean, it, it... If the S&P goes to fucking zero, there's much bigger problems than what you're doing-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yes
- CWChris Williamson
... with your money.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah, we'll be killing each other.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
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- 52:14 – 1:07:37
UK vs US: Who’s Better Off Financially?
- CWChris Williamson
How much shame surrounds debt, and do you think that shame hurts people or helps people change?
- CHCaleb Hammer
I think it, it's pretty damaging that in our culture, talking about money is shameful in general, uh, and in debt. I mean, I think it's good to have a good laugh on a TikTok short or things like that. That's fine. But I think if we have a whole system where people feel shameful to even bring up their close friends, their family, or even their therapist that they're in a bad financial situation, they're not gonna get that emotional support. They're not gonna get that encouragement that they actually need to change 'cause they'll just be weathering it themselves. That's a very difficult thing. You don't wanna... Again, going back to even just the cancer thing, you don't want to be going through that yourself. It's almost impossible. You need support. Anything you go through, any kind of support system's good, and if we have a massive level of shame around it, which I would say in our country, in our society, we definitely have. People aren't even willing to say what they make.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- CHCaleb Hammer
You know? They're like embarrassed or they're afraid of making it too much and people will look down on them for... Like, they'll be jealous, you know? So there's a lot of shame around personal finances in our society, and I think that's pretty damaging.
- CWChris Williamson
It's interesting. As a British person, we have shame, but in the opposite direction. We have shame about talking about how much we make. If we make a good wage, that-
- CHCaleb Hammer
'Cause everyone's poor there?
- CWChris Williamson
Because there is such a strong tall poppy syndrome that if you're seen to be too big for your boots or doing too well, that can often cause way more ire. It's like an interesting... I understand why people would feel personal shame around talking about being in a bad position financially. What does this say about me as a human? What does this say about my habits? Maybe people are going to think less of me. But there is a, like a, a pro-social, "Fuck, that person's down bad."
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"Hey, man, like I, I really wanna help you," as opposed to, "Dude, I just got this new job, and I got a, I got a 30%-
- CHCaleb Hammer
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
... pay increase. I can't believe it."
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"I've been working so hard for this for a long time." If that's not someone that's got your best interests at heart-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... that triggers in them not pity, which is not an emotion that people wanna feel, but it induces envy-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... which is way more, like active, you know? That's the sort of thing that can get you ostracized from a friend group. And again, this isn't everybody. I've got amazing friends in the UK, but I met a million people running nightclubs. I was a... had one of the biggest events companies in the UK for a long time. Met a million people, right, in person with a tight pair of jeans on, holding a clipboard, giving out wristbands and free champagne. I had a handful of close friends that I could talk to openly about everything that was going on, successes, failures, all the rest of it.
- CHCaleb Hammer
That's good.
- CWChris Williamson
That's not a great friend exposure to conversion funnel, right? A million people, handful of friends.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Oh, yeah. Yeah, sure.
- CWChris Williamson
That's why-
- CHCaleb Hammer
At least you had them though, you know? [chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
That's... No, I-
- CHCaleb Hammer
A lot of people don't
- CWChris Williamson
That's true. Yeah, and as an only child, that was like, "Fuck, like I've got some people that have got me," and that's cool.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, just, uh, the UK is a very inhospitable environment for people that are trying to, uh, do things financially. I've got this line, I wonder whether you agree with it. Uh, the UK is a great country to be poor in and a terrible country to be rich in, and America is a terrible country to be poor in and a great country to be rich in.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah, I mean, a lot of poor people move to and stay in the UK, a lot of wealthy people leave. I'd say the analytics just follow that in general. [chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
Bingo. Fucking nailed it, dude. Forget the pithy maxims. I just dialed the entire financial industry.
- CHCaleb Hammer
[chuckles]
- 1:07:37 – 1:16:39
What Real Financial Education Should Look Like
- CWChris Williamson
I don't know, man. I don't know what financial education-- what good financial education looks like because the incentives aren't necessarily aligned for somebody who feels like they're really struggling, who's comparing where they are financially to where they think their parents were at their age-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... where they think everybody else is at their age, what they think that they should have. So-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... past generations, other people, and my idealized version of where I want to be, all of that bundled together, you saying, "Well, actually, the top 1% of earners, they contribute 30% of the taxes, and the bottom 50%, they're actually net detractors from the, the system and the..." That doesn't make me feel any better.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, it's not a comfort to me to take a macro perspective when my micro experience sucks.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah. I mean, that's, that's why financial audit's about the perspective of the individual and their responsibilities and what they can change. 'Cause, you know, some people comment, "Why aren't you talking about the systems that fuck them in the first place?" And I'm like, "That's not what this show can change." You can go vote.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Congratulations. You contributed to changing the system that you want to do. But the reality is, on that show, only one person can change what's happening in that person's life immediately, and that's that individual. So you're right. Talking about the system, it, it doesn't help anyone on that personal level. It's the actual choices. There are, there... And there is good news. The United States is actually taking, um, a pretty important step towards it. We're close to 40 states that now require a personal financial education course to graduate high school. It's close to 40 states. It wasn't even half of America just a couple of years ago, so they're really getting on that.
- CWChris Williamson
Have you had a look at the syllabus? What do you think of the syllabus?
- CHCaleb Hammer
I haven't looked at it, but I mean, the governor of Michigan came on the show and, you know, she wanted to talk about it. And, you know, uh, she's Democrat. She's probably gonna run for president, and I was very impressed with how much she actually cared about making sure people needed to learn about basic personal finances before graduating high school.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
I think that's important, and I'm glad to see that we're doing that as a country. Now, I don't know about you, I don't know what the grade system is like out there in the United Kingdom, but I was a fucking retard who didn't give a shit about school. I would've done whatever the minimum thing required to pass that school, and I wouldn't... or that class, and I wouldn't have learned anything if I was in school.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
I like [laughs] I don't know. I... Other than the things I was actually interested in, which is mostly history classes and music classes at that time, I did the basic bare minimum to pass, and I wouldn't have learned anything. So there is that consequence, but at least we're trying.
- CWChris Williamson
If you were to put together a syllabus of principles financially-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... to teach young people, what would be the biggest ones?
- CHCaleb Hammer
It would start with budgeting, 'cause if you can't budget, there's nothing else. So, um, budgeting's that... You know, we talked about the discipline, personal responsibility. That's a little harder to teach in school, but at least learning how to budget a household, uh, starting with something like the 50/30/20 method, which is 50% on needs, 30% on wants, 20% on investing. Smallest category is investing. You get to spend 30% of your money on bullshit. Obviously, that changes in places like New York, LA, San Francisco, but that's a good place to start from. So teach that concept. Teach what is a good car loan to get. I enjoy the money guy rule. You put 20% down, no longer than a three-year term, and no more than 8% of your income is the monthly payment. That equals a car you can afford. Actually teach the value of college and a degree instead of saying everyone needs to go to college and borrow as much as it takes to get whatever degree you want at any institution you want. Instead, teach, okay, a good general rule is don't get a degree of which you borrow more for than you'll get in your expected first year's salary. So that's a good rule.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, that's nice.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah. It's a, it's a good rule to just not borrow more than you need. What's-
- CWChris Williamson
I don't know how America stacks up in terms of, uh, different courses at different universities. Can you give me some examples of low, medium, and, and high, and what would be expected? 'Cause I... There's no way. I've seen some of the-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... fucking student debt bills.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Oh, yeah. It's bad.
- CWChris Williamson
There's no way that somebody's gonna... Some people wouldn't even earn that back in five years of being at work.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Of course.
- CWChris Williamson
If, if they had zero costs and all of the money went back to their student loan.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so strictly thinking college, let's get rid of trades or anything like that. Community college, you can go there for two years. You can get your basics out of the way. In fact, a lot of community college, you can get your four-year degree now at, like nursing and whatnot. Uh, Austin Community College here, you can go for, like, 1,000 bucks a semester, 2,000 bucks a semester. Super affordable, super cheap. Many people can work their way through it, and that's in Austin, and it's in, it's similar in other areas. Uh, from there, you wanna transfer, if you're gonna transfer to an, uh, institution, um, more affordable, just standard, maybe directional school like Western Texas, you know, something like that. I went to Western Michigan-
- 1:16:39 – 1:21:32
The Dangerous Consequences of the Gender Wars
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That I think is gonna be one of the biggest stories of the next decade. I mean, there's gonna be many, but one of the ones that people are going to feel the most is more war between the sexes.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Oh, yes. The gender wars are so extreme.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- CHCaleb Hammer
The political division right now in the most recent, uh, federal election, the gender divide in the Generation Z- Z, is further than any other generation in American history. It's, it's, it's, it's scary. I'm actually scared. And it, it's impacting more things than just that. Uh, it's impacting reproduction numbers, which impacts the overall economy. It impacts retirees, the retiree-to-worker ratio if people aren't fucking. And people aren't fucking, people hate each other. Now they have, um, you're swiping based on political affiliation on the dating apps, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Uh, so it i- it is very scary and it's sad to see. And unfortunately, again, it is usually like the white women that are calling me fascist online, [laughs] uh, you know, for personal responsibility, finances.
- CWChris Williamson
It's okay. You're in-
- CHCaleb Hammer
And I'm like, "Dude"
- CWChris Williamson
... you're in very good company with regards to that. Yeah, it's-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah. But it's like, uh, it's a... It's really weird because I really just want the best. And talking about statistics or anything isn't sexist. It's not... Right now, you know, I didn't even say it earlier 'cause it shouldn't be about the sexes. When we talked about people struggling post-college degrees to not get a job, it's actually not women. They're, they're getting, uh, jobs at the same rate as new degree holders as traditional. It's men that are falling off the cliff. But I didn't wanna focus on that 'cause this shouldn't be a big gender war.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
But the gender wars among Gen Z right now is insane, and we're gonna have massive consequences down the road, just as we've seen in South Korea and Japan, and I'm terrified for that as a hopeful future retiree.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Uh, this was from my newsletter this week. Asian women now earn more on average than white men in the US, a finding that adds a wrinkle to common narratives about patriarchy and white supremacy. Asian women are winning.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah. Yeah, sure. Of course, and like I understand there's the history, right? So you gotta put... Many people feel burdened by history. I get it. Victimhood's easier to have than, you know, saying like, "Oh, we're doing okay now." Um- I think, I think it's, it's very... There's two, there's two sides on that more, uh, I guess if you have to put it in a camp right-wing perspective is like, you know, oh, everything's good now, so, you know, we don't even need to think about what came before, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
It's like, okay, but there is an actual history. And then on the left-wing side that's just as bad is like they don't even recognize that there has been progress. It's all victimhood. It's all bad. Women are oppressed, all this stuff. It makes no sense. You have to acknowledge the realities of history, and you have to also recognize when we're trying to change society that we actually have changed society and people are doing better than before.
- CWChris Williamson
The thing that's kind of an unseen cost of always looking with a historical context that forgets the present-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... is that it actually denies people who are in a good situation from ever feeling like they're in a good situation.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah, absolutely.
- CWChris Williamson
You go, "Hey, hey, you fucking arrived."
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
I get it. Burdens from the past, uh, uh, things that need to be remembered so we don't fall back there. The main fear is if we for- if we don't keep talking about it, maybe we'll go back there, right?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Sure.
- CWChris Williamson
That keep a weather eye on that. Make sure that that's happening. But if you make progress in the present always muted by what-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yes
- CWChris Williamson
... where it came from in the past, you never actually give people the gift of feeling the opportunity for celebration.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Couldn't agree more, but you're evil for saying that, so.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm aware. It's fine. I've been called a lot. Uh, people aren't fucking-
- 1:21:32 – 1:26:38
The Economic Risks of a Declining Population
- CHCaleb Hammer
insane.
- CWChris Williamson
So have you looked at, um, the economic implications, sort of macroeconomic implications of a, a declining population?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah. I mean, I'm more focused on the retirement. When we were, um, uh, these numbers I'm gonna have to be a little fuzzy on 'cause it's hard to remember exactly. But when we first started a so- a social program called Social Security that has good intent, not an evil program, mismanaged, not smart in the end. You know, we had like a worker to retiree ratio of like 100 to one. Uh, what are we at now? We're like at, uh, it's close to like 10 to one or something. You could have these numbers. Um, but the, the closer and closer we get, the more burden it is on the individual, and if you have social systems that are solely reliant on a growing population, growing tax base-
- CWChris Williamson
Which we are
- CHCaleb Hammer
... it doesn't work. They fail. So all the social programs are starting to fail. You're seeing them starting to buckle. Social Security is gonna have a mandatory 25% cut in 2032 is what's projected.
- CWChris Williamson
Why?
- CHCaleb Hammer
So when there were more workers, we were contributing more money than was going out.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- CHCaleb Hammer
So that money was starting to build in this so-
- CWChris Williamson
Because old people don't work, but they do need caring for.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah. Which makes sense, and the, that Social Security, uh, fund was starting to build. But where was it? Like around early 2000s or something, we started to take more out of it than was going in as the baby boomers started to retire, and also there's just less people replacing them. And by 2032, unless the retirement age changes, unless the cap on Social Security tax changes, unless we-
- CWChris Williamson
Reduced. The cap on Social Security would be brought down.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah. Or, or we also cut benefits to those who are already high income and, you know, all controversial for different reasons. Whatever. That's not the point. But unless something changes, the fund goes to zero, and then the only money that goes out is the money coming in.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
And that's projected to be a 25-ish percent cut by 2032.
- CWChris Williamson
Fuck me, that's gonna be unpopular.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Oh, it's, it's... Whoever's president is gonna get killed. I mean, it's gonna be bad. We'll probably just... Honestly, they'll probably write a law. We'll borrow the difference, and our debt will just go even further. Probably what's gonna happen. The last time we made a compromise was during the Reagan administration, if I'm not mistaken, where they barely waged- raised the retirement. You have to remember, the average lifespan for-
- CWChris Williamson
What is it now? 65?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah, right around there.
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- CHCaleb Hammer
And we raised it like two years. The average lifespan for when we started Social Security was like, if you actually make Social Security, you're gonna live for another two or three years. Now you're gonna live a couple decades. So it just doesn't-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm
- CHCaleb Hammer
... it doesn't make sense anymore. It, the... Even though it's super unpopular among the highest voting base, the boomers, Social Security retirement age for what it was actually intended to when FDR signed it into law should have been raised to almost like 70 by now. [chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
Which nobody-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Which sounds evil.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Does anybody like the idea of-
- CHCaleb Hammer
No
- CWChris Williamson
... working and working and working? This is-
- CHCaleb Hammer
No.
- CWChris Williamson
The... I've still not been able to thread this needle properly. I've done four-hour fucking discussion with the best on the planet, as far as I could find, to talk about this stuff. Endless episodes with Stephen. I've had Lyman on before. I've had Simone's husband on. People that are skeptical, critical, all this stuff. And I'm like, "Dude, like, if you care about the quality of life of people, more people are going to be old in the future than ever before."
- 1:26:38 – 1:31:37
Should a Trillionaire Exist?
- CWChris Williamson
That's a question. What do you make of having the world's first trillionaire in existence right now?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah, it's interesting. A lot of people are very angry about it. Um, you know, uh, a lot of th- I, I'm happy that you can get rewarded in this country for the things you do. We're getting internet beamed from space. I love my Tesla. The self-driving's insane. If people haven't been in a recently updated self-driving Tesla, like, you can read, eat, drink coffee, scroll on TikTok, and the car will get you somewhere perfectly fine with that, without, without looking at the road. It's one of the crazy... That's technology no one would've even dreamed of 20 years ago, the things that we're doing. The private space. Like, I think you should be rewarded for it. Trillion's a lot. It's crazy. But even if the argument is you're against someone being a trillionaire, what's then the action? The action is you're forcing him to sell a position of his own company. You're saying we're taking a gun, and we're saying you must sell a position of your company to pay tax on it. I'm against that as a philosophy. That doesn't make sense. Should a trillionaire exist? I don't know. But if you decide the answer's no, the actual action that comes from it is worlds worse than whether or not a trillionaire should exist.
- CWChris Williamson
For-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Forcing people to sell their company is crazy.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a really interesting argument. I understand inequality is one of the craziest distorters of human behavior. So one example from Candice Blake, uh, who's out in Australia, uh, she looked at levels of, uh, self-sexualization and beautification of women, and correlated posts on Instagram and Twitter at the time with the geolocation it came from, and looked at the wealth inequality in that area. Women that were in higher wealth inequality, uh, ecologies posted more sexy selfies, did more self-beautification, and more self-sexualization. The reason for that, her theory, was when you see both how high you could climb and how low you could fall if you pick the right or wrong mate that, on average, will be at least contributing to the household or maybe the breadwinner and the primary provider for you and your future family, you start to turn on the taps in terms of the way that you look.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
And that's one example in one very small niche of one very small study. When globally everybody is now aware that there is a guy on the planet right now that could lose $1 trillion and still be the richest man on the planet-
- CHCaleb Hammer
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
... that you and me and everybody is closest to the second richest man in the world than the second richest man in the world is to the first richest man in the world, that is deranging. It's deranging to the way that people see their place in society.
- CHCaleb Hammer
It is. I just try to put it in perspective, and if the thing... The thing is, I've, I'm, I'd do well, and I'm okay with paying more in taxes if that's the argument. I'm not okay with it if we're not even able to investigate fraud, if we're not able, blah, blah, blah. You know, there's a lot of things. The bureaucracy's insane. Fucking... So I would rather not pay more in taxes until we actually get our shit figured out. But even still, I would be okay with paying taxes if we say it's gonna fund something that's gonna help people. But the conversation's gone away from that to saying, "That man has a lot of money. That's evil. Let's take it." That's no longer the conversation. I want to fund something that's actually good if we're gonna raise taxes. So it's, the, I, they, they've lost me at that conversation. And also they think, like, where does him being a trillionaire affect you? For me, I think what actually affects someone's personal life is they have to call a cashier to unlock a toothbrush at a corner shop. That's actually impacting you on a daily life. Zoning laws is impacting you 'cause it's preventing houses and high-rises being built, which impacts your housing costs. Student loans being tied basically to hiring more administrators. That impacts you. There's so many more things impacting you than someone whose companies that he owns, you know, large stakes in went public, and they're being valued high, which made his net worth go exponential. There's so many more things to address first than freaking out about that. But something in the human nature, especially of the more extremists, I will say, and more populous, is like, "That person has a lot of money. I don't. Let's take it." But even if they took all of his money, I think everyone gets, like, what is it, like 1,000 or 2,000 bucks?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
It's something cr- it's something that- It would actually be really nice, and for a lot of people could be life-changing, but that's one time. It would drive inflation extreme and, uh, it would actually just be damaging in the end-
- CWChris Williamson
Well-
- CHCaleb Hammer
... 'cause then we don't have life-changing technology.
- CWChris Williamson
Why would it drive inflation extreme? Speak to me as if I'm five.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Well, you know, when-
- CWChris Williamson
Talking to you like you're a fucking LLM here. [laughs]
- CHCaleb Hammer
[laughs] Um-
- CWChris Williamson
Can you imagine if you had a Caleb LLM that's just shouting and screaming at you the whole time?
- CHCaleb Hammer
A rapid supply of 350 million Americans spending a couple thousand bucks just out of the gate, like a trillion dollars just pumped into the economy like that, I mean, that'd be brutal. Just look what we did during the pandemic pumping hundreds of billions. So it'd be pretty brutal.
- CWChris Williamson
Whilst also sounding like the sort of thing that we would want, but not.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah. You need people to spend money.
- CWChris Williamson
Want in the micro-
- CHCaleb Hammer
But not so much-
- CWChris Williamson
... but not in the macro.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah. Not so much that it drives insane hiring sprees that pushes everyone's incomes to insane levels that pushes inflation higher.
- 1:31:37 – 1:34:19
The Biggest Financial Red Flags in Dating
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. What are the biggest financial red flags in dating?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Uh, high car debt would be absolutely horrible. If I pull up to that TikTok girl we saw earlier in a $50,000 car, financing a $50,000 debt on a car, like we'll hook up, but we're not staying for a second night.
- CWChris Williamson
[laughs]
- CHCaleb Hammer
So [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
[laughs] Okay.
- CHCaleb Hammer
It's a big red flag.
- CWChris Williamson
High car debt. What else?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Um, I think it's nice for people to off- of- offer, like, splitting the bill on a first date. You know, I like being, I guess, the man and, like, paying for it, but I think it's actually... It's a green flag when people... You know, if they expect you to pay for it, I think is a bit of a red flag.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
You know, if they're thinking like they're that special thing.
- CWChris Williamson
And that's why entitlements?
- CHCaleb Hammer
I don't know. It just kinda turns me off specifically. If when people have that main character syndrome and it gets tied into the financial situation of, like, expecting things, you know, that's kinda gross to me. A bullshit degree. I mean, less, less [laughs] ...
- CWChris Williamson
A bullshit degree. Just toss that out to the side.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah. [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
What'd you do your degree in? Yeah, no, sorry.
- CHCaleb Hammer
I didn't.
- CWChris Williamson
This doesn't-
- CHCaleb Hammer
I dropped out.
- CWChris Williamson
This is not gonna work. No, no, me-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Okay
- CWChris Williamson
... me on an imaginary d- imaginary date.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Would you date me? I dropped out.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, how much debt you got?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Uh, 25,000.
- CWChris Williamson
That's all right. I'd date you.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Ni- nice tits.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Thank you. [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
[laughs] Um, car payment, bullshit degree.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah, um, and that entitlement of, like, expectation around spending.
- 1:34:19 – 1:36:53
How Money Problems End Relationships
- CHCaleb Hammer
just using me.
- CWChris Williamson
How many couples have broken up because of what you've revealed financially?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Uh, very rare on the show. We've, we've had a couple. We had one divorce. It wasn't from the show, and it was a couple years ago. Just a bad marriage, but it's actually pretty rare for people to break up.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. You... Should couples merge finances?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Uh, at some point it's nice to have a joint account that incomes go in and then bills come out of, and then we can send, uh, fun money to our own accounts from there. I think after marriage makes a little more sense, at least common law marriage, 'cause then you have some, uh, some of those protections in the case of death or whatnot. But, um, yeah, I mean, it's fine. And it's fine if people wanna keep it separate as long as they can actually budget the household. People just usually fail at that without getting insight on the full thing.
- CWChris Williamson
What's your perspective on prenups?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah, it's fine. Uh, if there's, like, a big wealth divide. Yeah, a big wealth divide, it makes sense. I think if you're both making 100, it's a bit weird.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. Do you often see financial infidelity, like hiding purchases or debt or accounts?
- CHCaleb Hammer
All the time. So common, and most people don't think it's actually much of anything, but the other person feels really hurt in the end. They just don't realize it, 'cause spending is just one of those things where it's not, it's not viewed as extreme as cheating. It, it's not as extreme as cheating, but it does impact the other person that they're hiding it from more than they think. And the moment it's exposed on the show, you can see the pain in their face.
- CWChris Williamson
It's still trust, right?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah, it's trust. It's... Exactly. Trust, not talking to the person. It, it's a lot of things, and it, it hurts them personally.
- CWChris Williamson
If you're not being honest with me about this, how can I be-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... certain that you're being honest with me about anything else?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a vicious cycle with that stuff. What, uh... Is there a, like, sex difference in what men and women go broke doing?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Hmm. Honestly, no. Not really. I mean, I'll get a little-
- CWChris Williamson
They're able to be equally retarded in similar directions?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Equally retarded. I mean, they... Everyone loves collectibles. They just get, like, different. I got little boo-boos on the women, or I got Pokémon cards on the men.
- CWChris Williamson
Everyone loves collectibles.
- CHCaleb Hammer
No, no, no, but, like, uh, you know, it's, like, split down the genders. Like, like, both genders love it. Does everyone love it? No.
- CWChris Williamson
One's obsessed with Warhammer 40K, another's obsessed with Beanie Babies.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- CHCaleb Hammer
So, I mean, you'll get some more frivolous spending. Maybe a guy will put some more into his car, a girl will get more extensions, but it's similar levels of bullshit. What's actually interesting is, you know, talk about young men gambling issues, but the... It's actually pretty similar in terms of percentage young men and young women.
- CWChris Williamson
No way.
- CHCaleb Hammer
It's just not talked about.
- CWChris Williamson
No way.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Men is higher, but it's pretty close. It's pretty close.
- CWChris Williamson
What do you think of prediction markets? What's your-
- 1:36:53 – 1:40:19
How Mental Health Shapes Spending Habits
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. M- mental health issues impacting spending.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Is that true? Like shopping addictions and stuff?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Oh, yeah. Yeah, or if you're depressed, it feels good to get that dopamine spike of a quick purchase. Absolutely. Um- Yeah, mental health affects everything in the end. It's kind of that, that discipline thing, right? Everything stems from the discipline when it comes to personal finances. If your mental health's bad, usually your discipline's gonna be bad.
- CWChris Williamson
I can't remember where it was I read this. I think it might have been the UBI test study. There was two that were done in 2024, and, uh, one of the points there was if you're poor, you can only really get small, uh, doses of pleasure from small things, but that means that you're more likely to spend frivolously because you need to relieve the stress. It's that point that we made before. Like, if you have not that much pleasure in your life and you're burdened with worry and you don't know what the future has in store for you, yeah, you're gonna go and buy cigarettes-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... because the cigarettes alleviate your suffering.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
It's... There's certain things... I remember there was this example from Sam Harris fucking years ago. It was during the, some of the more crazy race conversations around mid-2020, and I was struggling to see, uh, r- philosophically consistent arguments about, um, white privilege, and he came up with one that I thought was so fucking cool, and he said, "If I've ever gone through TSA and I've had my bag pulled, I've never once thought that it's because of my race."
- CHCaleb Hammer
Interesting.
- CWChris Williamson
Isn't that an interesting kind of white privilege?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
I've never once thought that. I'm like, "Oh, I, I fucked up. Like, I left water in the water bottle-"
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... or it's a random check by TSA 'cause they've gotta do it. Like, they, this is what they do.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That is not true if you're of a different race.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That's just straight up not true. And the same thing, the same thing to a degree is also true when it comes to being poor, that there are these sort of secret psychological loops that people go through about what their financial position means to their identity, how they then cope with that identity with their behavior, which feeds back into the financial position.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That seems to be the, one of the very unseen death spirals, and it's too, it's too complex to put on a billboard. It doesn't sound sexy. Like, what, what fucking intervention are you going to have as a politician or as a, a potential president going, "And we are going to teach people how to intervene in their conscientiousness when they begin the downward death spiral of-"
- CHCaleb Hammer
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
"... sedating themselves from feeling bad about their financial position, doing things that makes their financial position worse"? No. Let's... It is way too complex, despite the fact that it might be one of the key driving forces. Okay.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
How can we, how can we give people... I mean, we do, we give people fucking social media, which is some of the freest dopamine that you can get on the planet, but I think all that that really does is raise the waterline of minimum dopamine that you now need an even bigger dose to be able to break out the top of it. I wonder whether we would be in better financial positions without social media.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Oh, probably. I mean, we see things, we see the lifestyles that people pretend they have all the time [laughs] and we like to chase lifestyles. We're jealous. We're a jealous people, a jealous species. It makes sense.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
I think that's one of the drivers of lifestyle inflation.
- CWChris Williamson
And unfortunately, poor people will go broke trying to look rich.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Oh, yeah, the car especially. Absolutely.
- 1:40:19 – 1:42:40
The Dumb Purchases That Make People Broke
- CWChris Williamson
that... What's the dumbest purchase category that people constantly overspend on?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Constantly in America, it's certainly the car. Well, and, uh, it's baked into our infrastructure. You have to drive. You have to drive to have a job to have to drive. Like, that is the reality, but people will over-justify how much car they need, needing the new car 'cause of the new safety rating, like cars would literally kill you five years ago or something. Like, I don't really get that. Um, uh, fuel efficiency, like you can make some arguments and stuff, especially in times like now where gas is up, but people will justify the heck, again, like her, out of getting a $50,000 car loan for a car that you do not need.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. What is the rough rule of how to work out what price of car you're able to afford?
- CHCaleb Hammer
It comes down to the monthly payment if you get a debt. As long as you put 20% down, it is a three-year term, the minimum monthly payment should be no more than 8% of your income. If it is, then you're getting a car that's likely too much out of your affordability range.
- CWChris Williamson
Seems like a pretty simple formula.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah, it's easy, and it gets most people a, like, a pretty good car.
- CWChris Williamson
What does that get an average earner making 50 grand a year?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Oh, God. I don't know. Should we do the math? I can do the math.
- CWChris Williamson
Do the math.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Uh, okay. Um, well, shit, then I have to, like, understand what 20% down would be, so it would have to be post-20%. Okay, okay, okay, $50,000, 'cause it is gross income. So talking eight, so that's 40,000. You can do 40,000, uh, divide that by 12. So, I mean, that's pretty chunky. Um, no, no, no, sorry, that's not eighth. I did 80%. Okay, so $4,000 divided by 12 is $333, but you have to come up... So y- as long as you put 20% down, it's a three-year, your car payment $333.
- CWChris Williamson
You can probably get a good bit of car for that money.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Decent, decent. I mean, interest rates, depends on your credit score. Might have to go a little higher-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- CHCaleb Hammer
... then you just need to pay it down quicker, and I'm okay with that. You just gotta put extra towards it. You just don't have to freak out about it if you're doing that, if you're following that rule.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. I guess a lot of people need credit to build a financial future whilst also struggling to build credit to qualify for it because they lack credit history.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah, but there's credit builders now. There's charge cards now where, yeah, you know, you put the money on there to spend, but it's building credit. Uh, so there's a lot more resources today than before if people are just willing to look.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- 1:42:40 – 1:44:56
How Damaging is Financial Over-Optimisation?
- CWChris Williamson
Can someone become obsessed with financial optimization to the point where they make their life worse?
- CHCaleb Hammer
I mean, our friend, our friend Graham Stephan, I think [laughs] a little, right? I mean, I don't know. Is, uh... I don't think he needs to... I love the dude. I love the dude, but everything you see on camera is actually what you get in reality, and he will micro-freak out about just the little penny he's gonna spend on lunch or something, and he'd make more money if he used that mental effort on producing a piece of content. So-
- CWChris Williamson
Isn't that a hidden cost? Like a strange-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... kind of hidden cost of obsessing over finances too much?
- CHCaleb Hammer
But you know what? He has fun with it, so it's actually probably not making his life worse.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, yeah, because his enjoyment from scrutinizing and saving is greater than the enjoyment he would get from the spending.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
It's this weird... I mean, he was built to be a saving engine.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
He's like the fucking LeBron James of saving money
- CHCaleb Hammer
But I think for some people, if you get to that way and it's not actually your passion and it's more coming from like, let's say, I don't wanna overuse the word trauma, but trauma of like growing up poor-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm
- CHCaleb Hammer
... so now you're just freaking out about it constantly, I think that could d-... you know, hurt your lifestyle.
- CWChris Williamson
Interesting archetypes of people that grew up without money. I, I grew up without money, and, uh, some people grow up to, "I've never had this before, fuck it, we ball."
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Or, "I've never had this before, it might be taken away, I'm not gonna spend it."
- CHCaleb Hammer
That's us, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You read Die With Zero by Bill Perkins?
- CHCaleb Hammer
No.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, dude.
- CHCaleb Hammer
I know it, but I haven't read it.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a really fun... It's a three-hour read or listen or whatever, and, um, he's just got some interesting ideas that I would be... Are you... I know you're doing financial audit. Are you sitting down with other people that are, uh, Morgan Housels of the world, the Bill Perkins of the world? Have you got any desire to do that? To... 'Cause I would love for you to scrutinize financial philosophies from people that have got popular financial books.
- CHCaleb Hammer
It'd be, it'd be fun, but I also have to acknowledge, even though there's some topics that I'm interested in learning from experts from, I'm no different from just a dude off the street. I'm not a fucking expert. Like, I'll listen to people, but it's hard for me to, like, push back against a true expert in their position. That's why I, like, keep into what I do. It's basic. Personal finances is so basic until you get to the crazy shit.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
It's so basic until you get to the top 0.1%. It's just budgeting, control, discipline, low index funds, low cost index funds, target date retirement funds, emergency fund. That, that's the shit I'm into.
- 1:44:56 – 1:53:43
Is Property Still a Smart Investment?
- CWChris Williamson
You've-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Bread and butter
- CWChris Williamson
... you've exited all of your rental properties?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Exiting, yeah. Exiting.
- CWChris Williamson
Why?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Um, better return on investment in the stock market all day, every day. No hassle either. I mean, I'm not the one fielding the calls when something breaks, but, you know, it's just, every month is up and down depending on what needs to be repaired, and just even if nothing needed to be repaired, the only thing you're taking advantage of is some leverage there, which can be nice, especially if the market booms. But in general, real estate has lost now to the S&P 500 just consistently. I, I would love to own a piece of commercial-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- CHCaleb Hammer
... like you do.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- CHCaleb Hammer
That's great. You know, you get some, some, uh, quick depreciations on there, which is really nice.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Uh, so that's something I'd be willing to get into at some point.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm unwinding all of the houses I have in the UK except for the one that I, I still live in, that's like a, still my, my place of-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Well, that's a collapsing country, so that's-
- CWChris Williamson
That's true. That is, that, that is true. But I mean, I... There was a period, and this was sort of what I grew up with. I was very fortunate that when I started doing business, the guy that was my partner was five years older than me, in the, in the exact same industry, and very, very financially responsible. And I, only child, so didn't have anybody that was entrepreneurial, understanding the UK system, and working in the same industry with the kind of cash flow and, and the sort of pacing that we would get. So I just followed the same path that he was on.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And his was every time that you get to about 30,000 pounds of spare cash, deposit on a buy to let student property between two and five bedrooms in a good student area, hand it off to a management company.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
They'll take between 10% and 20%, and what you just-
- CHCaleb Hammer
20% is fucking-
- CWChris Williamson
Rinse and repeat. I managed to negotiate to 12, but, uh, rinse and repeat. Okay, that's, that's pretty good. And-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... let's say... I never talk about money. This is my Britishism, but I've got you here. So let's say, uh, the best purchase that I made was 150,000 pounds, a five-bed student property in Heaton in Newcastle, and I would have put 25% down. So I, I think I, I think all in with stamp duty and fees and all the rest of the stuff, I think I put somewhere in the region of, like, 50 grand down, and that would make, after everything, 1,800 pounds a month. And then there would be maybe some repairs that were needed on top. So let's say 1,500, so that's like 18 grand.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
18 grand a year. Great cash vehicle.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But what you were really doing it for was to ti- 'cause it's an interest-only mortgage.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
So you were just tiding it over, hoping that everything would be kept in, maybe it would spew out a little bit of cash, and that would be lovely, but you were waiting for the capital gains.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm.
- 1:53:43 – 1:55:53
Is Raising Kids Cheaper Than You Think?
- CWChris Williamson
How much money do you need to raise a kid?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Um, well, uh, definitely less than people think for sure. 'Cause I mean, forever throughout human existence, you know, we were just having kids, and it was fine. It is a little harder today, but going through public school, um, getting them on your insurance, all that good stuff. If you're not thinking about having to get Parent PLUS loans, like you could, you can do it on just a normal middle class salary for sure. You can have quite a few kids, but an exact number, I don't have that.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. I think people believe that it's more expensive than it, it actually might be. But again-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... a lot of that is w- what do I think I need?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And what do I think that my kid would need?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Versus what, what is actually needed. This is an interesting part of that birth rate debate that we had, where in order to have the kid realistically, assuming that you don't have some huge windfall of money, the total pie of money that you have to spend is not going to change all that much. In fact, it might go down as one partner needs to take time off work in order to raise them, and then childcare costs and all the rest of it. That means that your lifestyle needs to take a hit. You need to, "I'm not gonna be able to go out for dinner as much."
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"I'm not gonna be able to upgrade the car as frequently."
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And that feels like, that feels like getting poorer.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Where what you've done is you've just re-portioned the money from what would've been car to now what now is child.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Which I, I empathize with. It makes sense. So if you don't wanna have kids, don't have kids.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
That's kind of what you said earlier, right? You know, we shouldn't force people to have kids. But we also should- shouldn't be doing misinformation of people thinking they need to have an endless supply of money to have kids. Like-
- CWChris Williamson
Well-
- CHCaleb Hammer
... we're richer than ever before, and people have had kids when we were poorer than ever before. Like, you do need money. You need school supplies. You do need to make sure they can be on your health insurance.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Like, there are a lot of things you need money for, but we overemphasize it, for sure.
- CWChris Williamson
Forcing people to have kids is horrendous, but scaring people out of not having kids when they could-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... because of misinformation is also something that-
- CHCaleb Hammer
Yes
- CWChris Williamson
... never gets spoken about.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Oh, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- 1:55:53 – 1:56:16
Where to Find Caleb
- CWChris Williamson
Caleb Hammer, ladies and gentlemen. Dude, you're awesome. I appreciate you. I think what you do is great. Where should people go to check out all of the shit you've got going on?
- CHCaleb Hammer
Caleb Hammer on YouTube, and I recommend everyone download DollarWise. Change their lives.
- CWChris Williamson
Unreal. Until next time, man, appreciate you.
- CHCaleb Hammer
Thank you.
- CWChris Williamson
Goodbye, my beauties. Dude.
- CHCaleb Hammer
That was fun.
- CWChris Williamson
Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, another one that I know you'll love is just here.
Episode duration: 1:56:18
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Transcript of episode nulkcjbI-pI
