Why Violence Is Safer Than Vulnerability - Johnny Chang

1. 0:00 – 8:44

   How Johnny Got Pulled Into Gang Life

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      Tell me about your history. How did you get to where you are today?

   2. JCJohnny Chang0:04

      Yeah. So, uh, I grew up in the San Gabriel Valley, uh, east side of LA, uh, some project housing. Um, and I grew up kind of not the stereotypical Asian. Like, I didn't like anime and I didn't like mathematics. [chuckles] I liked guns and gang banging basically, and it's, prior to that is because my parents were immigrant parents. Um, they did not, uh, fend very well, obviously landed in poverty. They came with the American dream in mind, realizing that it's not as simple as other people were portraying it, like our family back, back home. Uh, so yeah, we landed in the projects. They didn't understand gang violence, gang culture. They, they just thought, "Oh, this place is cheap. The government helps us. Why not?" Land there, and my dad, um, he was a chef by trade, but he tries to, um, you know, do everything that a, a, a man can do, right? Provide for his family. He starts to develop this addiction, um, which is to alcohol. He's drinking soju all the time. Um, and then he starts, like, beating my mom, beating me, beat my brother. Basically, he, he had a lot of, uh, I remember it like kind of like a victimized mindset, where he's like, "I came to this place, I tried my best, and now, like, everybody's out to get me." Like, he broke all of his friendships with his friends, I remember. Um, he would just blame everybody, v- blame everybody and s-

   3. CWChris Williamson1:26

      Was the alcoholism a response to him feeling like things were slipping through his fingers?

   4. JCJohnny Chang1:31

      Yeah. Yeah, it was. And then he would talk about certain things in the past that I didn't-- I was too young, but I remember he would say certain things like, "I never meant to do that." He would keep saying these types of things, and I'm like, "Okay, whatever. You know, you're a kid, you don't understand."

   5. CWChris Williamson1:43

      Hmm.

   6. JCJohnny Chang1:44

      Um, and then he ends up, you know, just kind of full-fledged, like, you know, broke my mom's ribs. You know, he's, he's like beat my brother really bad before. He's beat me really, really bad. And so I kind of get to this position where I'm like, all right, I'm like eight years old. I can't really like, you know, depend on my dad 'cause I know he's gonna go kinda crazy. So I try to just hang out in the streets, and I think at eight years old was when I started to fight more. I got suspended when I was 10 years old, and I just started to kind of hang around that. And in, and a lot of people don't know, but in LA around like the '90s was gang culture. It was just crazy. That was when Snoop Dogg and, you know, uh, Tupac and this gangster rap was hitting the scene. And so e- it, it literally came like a wave, as well as crack cocaine, meth going through, rampant through the neighborhood. And so, you know, we started to kind of see a shift in the, in the, in the area where people were just being more crazier, right? Um, so you know, the one event that made me kind of solidify that I couldn't trust my dad and, and my mom e- either is at 10 years old, I remember walking from Hi Ho Market, which is a market near, near my, my area in the hood, um, and these kids pull up on me in a car, and they beat me. These four kids beat the dog crap out of me. And, you know, I get jumped for the first time, um, and they take my backpack, they take my shoes, so I end up, you know, walking home, uh, barefoot with bloody nose, whatever, ripped shirt. And you know, my dad, uh, he asks me, right? He goes, "Where's your clothes? Where's your stuff?" Like, "What, what happened? Are you fighting again?" And I was like, "Yes, but I got jumped." And for him, it co- he couldn't understand why kids would do this to kids. Like, I'm 10 years old. Why would anyone just come and beat us up? What my dad didn't know at the time was that there was a war between the Asians and the Mexicans, so it was just solely they were just preying on us, you know, uh, uh, unfortunately.

   7. CWChris Williamson3:43

      Even though you weren't a part of it-

   8. JCJohnny Chang3:45

      Yeah, even-

   9. CWChris Williamson3:45

      Because of your race, you were a part of it.

   10. JCJohnny Chang3:47

       Yes, exactly. So, and a lot of kids during that time, uh, through the Green Light era is what we call it, is they were getting beat up. And so, um, and that's because two gangs were, you know, going at each other. But, um, you know, my dad's like, I remember him saying vividly, "When are you gonna stop lying?" And then he's like, "Today's the day you're gonna stop lying, and I'm gonna beat it out of you." So I got jumped, and then when I, you know, went home, my dad basically beat me. Uh, and then during that time, I just remember it was a different thing. Like, I was used to the beatings, but I think at that time I understood, like, I can't say anything to my dad anymore. He's just not there.

   11. CWChris Williamson4:22

       Hmm.

   12. JCJohnny Chang4:23

       My mom obviously would kind of help him beat on me, 'cause how he saw it was like, "If you're not helping me hit the kid, then, like, you're not supporting me," right? And so she would actually do the same, unfortunately, me and my brother. And so, um, you know, I, I was like, "Okay, I can't trust them." I started staying out more. I just had this internalized rage. Like, I would fight, and it was no longer, like, fun to fight anymore. It was more like survival. I was trying to, like, kill the person, and it just, it just took it-

   13. CWChris Williamson4:51

       10 years old

   14. JCJohnny Chang4:52

       ... at, at 10 years old. Yeah, and then, uh, two years into it, I'm fighting. I'm getting suspended. My dad's beating me up, and I almost took it as like, "All right, you're gonna beat me up. Like, whatever. It's just part of it." I get out, um, go to the, go to the, you know, uh, uh, stores. I go to, like, wherever I go, I'm literally just being mischievous. I'm stealing, um, carrying a knife to school, all this stuff. At 12 years old, you start to kind of see the shift in my life where the gangs are noticing, 'cause when they, what they do is they kind of prey on, on the kids. They look at them, and they go, "Okay, this guy's getting in trouble. You know, he's fighting more." And they, they were basically trying to, like, recruit me.

   15. CWChris Williamson5:33

       Well, they're not gonna try and recruit the kid that stays at home, goes to bed at eight o'clock-

   16. JCJohnny Chang5:37

       Of course

   17. CWChris Williamson5:37

       ... and reads his books.

   18. JCJohnny Chang5:38

       Yeah. Yeah. So, um, at that time, I remember the first encounter was they banged on me, which means, like, you, they basically test you, right? They know you're not from anywhere, but they wanna see. So I remember they pulled out guns on me, and they were just like, "Where are you from?" Which means, you know, what gang? And I froze obviously, and I was like, "Uh..." I didn't say anything. And then they're like, "You're, you ain't from anywhere?" And I'm like, "Nah." "Do you gang bang?" I'm like, "Nah, I don't gang bang." And then they're like "You wanna kick it?" Which means let's, let's hang out, [laughs] you know? And of course I was just like-

   19. CWChris Williamson6:07

       How old were these guys?

   20. JCJohnny Chang6:08

       They were, I think f- it was four of the homies. So I remember, I think he was, it was 16, 15, 15, and 14. So they was just kids as well, right? And so, um, yeah, [laughs] they were like, "Let's hang out." I remember getting into the bla- uh, into the white Honda Civic in the back, and they started introducing. They call me this guy and this guy and this guy, and told me their names. And, um, I was like, "Cool." They're like, "Let's go hang out." I remember they took me out to eat, and then the older dude, he was 16, brought me to his uncle, and his uncle was one of the shot callers, meaning like the OGs. And he's like, what's... He was like the nicest guy, I remember. I was like, this guy's tatted up, he's done prison time, he's big built, a man's man. And but he's like, "What's up, man?" Like super soft, super respectful. And he's like, "You know what?" Like, "Are you hungry?" And uh, they're like, "No, we took him to eat." He's like, "Okay, cool." And he, he pulls out a wad of cash and he pulls out $100 and he gives it to me. And then he goes, "Bro, like, I hope you understand that, like, when you're with us, you're family." And I remember him saying that to me, and I was like, "Whoa! This guy is awesome. He's respectful. He's got a pistol on his hip." Like it, it... Everyone respects this dude. And I think at that moment I kind of fell in love with it, right? I was like-

   21. CWChris Williamson7:18

       And he was being gentle to you as well

   22. JCJohnny Chang7:19

       Very gentle. Very respectful, very gentle. Um, and I just, of course I'm, you know, 12 years old, and I'm like thinking, "This, this guy's cool," you know? And I remember in the car ride back when they were dropping me off, I'm like, "Man, the big homie, he's so cool. He's so cool." He- I just kept saying this.

   23. CWChris Williamson7:34

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JCJohnny Chang7:34

       You know? They're like, "Yeah, he's amazing." But obviously it was just kind of like coercing me into it and-

   25. CWChris Williamson7:40

       In retrospect, do you see that as predatory and coercive or caring when there's a kid who doesn't have a father that's looking after him?

   26. JCJohnny Chang7:51

       Well, I mean, he rest his soul, but he, uh, he was known for doing that, and so he brought a lot of the homies into the hood. And, um, he would use them, 'cause at the end, it, that same dude asked me to do a mission, which is, "Do something for me." And he, he said it. He was like, "Hey bro, like, you know, these people are my enemies, and you know, if you're my homie, they're your enemies." And as he started to lace me down as to what gang culture was. And again, I'm like, I don't know who these guys are, but they're just the opposition. "So because I love you and you're my homie, like I'll do it for you," you know? And so through that, um, that's where I caught my first case. It was this guy, he was like, "This guy thinks he's all that." You know, he was a well-known drug dealer in our neighborhood. And um, he's like, "He's stepping on our toes, and he's trying to do this, so we gotta go and take him," kidnap him basically, um, and then steal all of his stuff, you know? "And if we have to beat him up or kill him, it is what it is."

2. 8:44 – 16:08

   Surviving California’s Youth Prison System

   1. JCJohnny Chang8:44

      So I remember that was the first mission that I did. Um, unfortunately, that was the first time I got caught too. And so we all got caught, it was six of us. Um, at that time was the first time I learned about RICO. So RICO Act is when, you know, the government, they used it to take down like the Sicilian mob and Italian mafia, right? In, in America, it's basically like Homeland Security, FBI, CIA, they work together to like take down these gangs. Um, we were getting RICO'ed, and I didn't know that. I'm 12 years old. And so when I get caught, my, all my friends are telling me, "Yo, you're gonna do like a few months. You're a kid. Like, it's not gonna be that big of a deal. You didn't smoke nobody, you didn't kill nobody. You didn't do anything, right?" But then they hit me with kidnapping and robbery, and I'm like, "Whoa!" And then it carried a pretty hefty sentence, and that's the first time I heard YA, which is California Youth Authority. And then my friends were like, "Oh shoot, you're going to YA." It's-- And then they were all shocked because it was my first offense. I shouldn't have been going to YA. YA is like where, you know, kids kill their parents and like burn the house down. It's like the worst of the worst. Serial killers, kid, child serial killers would be in there. Um, just crazy stuff. And so they had me go in there solely because of the RICO Act. So they were like, "This guy..." I remember hearing like, "He's a child assassin," you know, "They're training him to be this and this and this gang." And they, they would line up c- uh, cases of my friends who were already indicted and doing prison time, and they were all in there for murder. So they're like, "These are his friends."

   2. CWChris Williamson10:09

      Well, this is the path that this kid is on. We need to get out ahead of it.

   3. JCJohnny Chang10:13

      Yes, exactly.

   4. CWChris Williamson10:14

      Guilt by association.

   5. JCJohnny Chang10:15

      Yeah. And then so they basically were like, "Yeah, it makes sense." You know, they're like, "Look at him. He's like young looking, but he doesn't listen. He do-" You know, "He has a good childhood." They're just like throwing this out there and-

   6. CWChris Williamson10:26

      Kellerman-White syndrome.

   7. JCJohnny Chang10:27

      Yeah. And I'm like, "What the heck is going on?" And then I hear four years. They're like, "Okay, you're gonna get four years for this. Um, you're gonna plea out, basically." And I took basically, uh, dissuading a witness for the benefit of a gang. It was a lesser charge. Um, and then they said, "You're gonna have to do 50% of that, half time." And you know, and the judge was just like, "I hope you can learn your lesson," you know? "'Cause where you're going," he's like, "it's, it's, it's gonna, it's very rough." So I ended up going to SRCC, which is Southern Reception, which is California Youth Authority. From there you fight. Right off, we get off the bus, um, people are just like, you know, testing me. That's what they ask, "Where are you from?" And I'm just like, "Oh, from Wa Ching." And they're like, "What?" And then they just crack me, boom. And I'm like, "What's going..." And I don't even know where this guy's from.

   8. CWChris Williamson11:12

      Mm.

   9. JCJohnny Chang11:12

      We're fighting. And then they, it comes back like two minutes later, the guy's like, "Hey, you fought my friend. Like I'm his homie, you gotta fight me." So it's called lining it up. So I remember the first night that I was locked-

   10. CWChris Williamson11:23

       That's the first time that you were-

   11. JCJohnny Chang11:24

       First night. Yeah, yeah. First day. And I'm like, oh. So they, it's called a ronfla, which means a car in Spanish. And basically what it is is if you fight this one guy, you have to fight all of his friends too, and I didn't know that. And so I'm in there, and I think I fought like six to eight people the first night, and I'm just like-

   12. CWChris Williamson11:43

       How old were they?

   13. JCJohnny Chang11:44

       They were between also like 12, 13. I think the oldest one I fought was 16. He beat me up bad, obviously. 12 and 16-year-old, no match, you know?

   14. CWChris Williamson11:53

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JCJohnny Chang11:53

       Um, and then, yeah, uh, you do that, and then the second day I fought four people, and then after that it was like, okay, he has respect. He's gonna fight.

   16. CWChris Williamson12:02

       Mm.

   17. JCJohnny Chang12:02

       But then I saw people who wouldn't fight, and unfortunately they would get taken advantage of. Whether it's people would steal from them, um, or I would Witness people, like, raping them as well

   18. CWChris Williamson12:12

       Mm-hmm

   19. JCJohnny Chang12:12

       Right? So, um, you know, you grow up in that environment, and I'm thinking, "Okay, I just gotta get through this for, like, two years," right? And I remember saying that to one of the older homies who was in there. He was like, he had the keys, meaning, like, he controlled, like, the, the little clique that we had in there, like the Asians. And he goes, "Bro," and I remember this vividly. He goes, "Forget about your life. Like, once you get here, like, you're, it's over for you. You're either gonna catch a murder or you're gonna, like, catch more time, because YA, it does something to you." That's, I remember him saying that, and it's true because I would see the COs, correctional officers, doing, like, wicked things. Uh, they would pit us against each other and call it gladiator school, where we're fighting each other. Um, and they would bet on us. You know, it's just, it, it was bad. It was all bad.

   20. CWChris Williamson12:57

       How did it change you?

   21. JCJohnny Chang12:58

       I remember it, it just made me more, like, if I just had the thought that someone was disrespecting me, it, they didn't even have to. If I just felt it or anyone felt it, you take off. So it was very violent. It, and, and again, within those four years, I think I fought, like, 40-plus people, right? And it, it's just like, "Did you say something? What?" And then you crack them. It's just, it, there is no talking in there. It's all gang banging. And then new people would come in, which we, which we call fish. They'll come in and we'll do the same thing. "Hey, where are you from? Oh, you're an enemy." We won't say nothing. Crack them. Boom, we start fighting. And so it made me deal with, like, violence as, like, a universal language, right? It's like, you don't have to talk. You don't need-- Just beat them up, and then everyone's gonna praise you. And then it felt like I felt, like, I f- felt like I fit in, right? I'm like, "Oh, wow, I could beat this guy up," and people are like, "Wow, that's Johnny. He did this, he did that." And so I felt a sense of, as weird as it is, pride to be able to do something like that. And so I get out of prison, um, you know, California Youth Authority, and I remember trying to just... You know, they paroled me back to my mom's, uh, place. Uh, my dad at this time hasn't really visited me or anything. He's just, you know, like, still being drunk and doing his own thing. My mom, um, starts to take Buddhism way more serious. Like, she was serious about Buddhism, but she was like, when I came, she was like Zen-ed out, right? Like, "Oh, there's karma, and put your shoes here, and there's, there's a feng shui," and you know. And I'm like, "Okay." And I last 67 days, uh, two months and a week, and I end up doing a, a freeway shooting, and this time I'm 16 going on 17, and they basically bring up all my past again. They try me.

   22. CWChris Williamson14:44

       Is it the same gang, the same group that-

   23. JCJohnny Chang14:46

       Same, same neighborhood. Yeah, so when you're in a gang, you're s- most of the time you're in it for life, right?

   24. CWChris Williamson14:51

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JCJohnny Chang14:51

       So it's just how it is. Um, and so same gang, I end up doing the shooting, but this time it wasn't them telling me. This was transparently just me looking, having the YA mentality, which is this car was driving on the 60 freeway, and I remember they were just stacking, which is like throwing up gang signs. It's Mexicans. And at that time we were, again, at war with these people. So I remember seeing them, and then they were, like, looking at me. It was two guys in the car, and I had the gun on me, and, um, I was just, like, kind of stacking back at them, and then I was like, "Man, F this," and I just started shooting at them. Um, and then I went on the run. Obviously, like, it was my dad's car that I took for a joyride, so the warrant came back to the address and, you know, they basically-

   26. CWChris Williamson15:33

       Do you think those t- those guys in the car rang you in?

   27. JCJohnny Chang15:36

       Uh, I don't think so.

   28. CWChris Williamson15:38

       How did the police-

   29. JCJohnny Chang15:38

       I don't think-

   30. CWChris Williamson15:38

       How did the police find out that it was you?
3. 16:08 – 20:43

   How Prison Politics Reshapes Gang Mentality

   1. JCJohnny Chang16:08

      So now I'm, I'm fearful because obviously, like, I, I've done YA, but I've heard stuff about prison. Prison is like the big boys. And I thought I would just go back to YA. Maybe I can handle the stretch.

   2. CWChris Williamson16:20

      You're just 16 still?

   3. JCJohnny Chang16:21

      16.

   4. CWChris Williamson16:22

      Yeah.

   5. JCJohnny Chang16:22

      Yeah. Going on 17. And, um, they're like, "No, we're gonna try you as an adult." Again, the first time I ever heard that. I'm like, "I'm not an adult though." But they're like, "We're gonna try you." And during that time, in that era-

   6. CWChris Williamson16:33

      Is that legal? I mean, it's gotta be, I guess.

   7. JCJohnny Chang16:34

      Well, yeah, it, it started to become.

   8. CWChris Williamson16:36

      Right.

   9. JCJohnny Chang16:36

      Right? Because it was just like, yeah, these guys are wild, so they know what they're doing. It doesn't matter if their frontal lobe is developed or whatever. It's just what it is, right? And so, um, yeah, I get tried and I get sentenced and I get points and they're like, "You go to level four," which is maximum security. I'm a kid kid, right? And, um, takes like a few months obviously, and I, and when I hit prison, I'm 17. Um, I plea out for basically, uh, two counts of assault with deadly weapon. They give me 10 years. Uh, I have to do 85% of that. So I just did four, got out. Now I'm doing 10, basically. Minimum eight years, depending on my behavior. I might do the full, I might catch another case and get washed and do life. I mean, it just, we don't know. Yeah. And then I get up in there and, um, I get laced down. It's completely different. The first day I get in there, I'm like, "Oh, that guy, he's from this gang," which is a rival gang of ours. "All right, I'm gonna take off on him." [chuckles] And the guy who was leading me through the prison was like, "That's a no-no." And I'm like, "What? I'm a YA baby." And he goes, "You guys need to calm your ass down." That's literally what he said. He goes, "In prison, it's race. California specifically, it's race against other races. All that gang stuff gets dropped. Like, yes, you're in your hood and you represent, but you don't fight each other." I'm like, "But he shot my cousin." Like, w- it doesn't matter. It's like n- that, that's all, this is the politics, and that's the first time I learned what politicking is. In prison, it's like, no, even though they're your enemy, you have to back them up. And again, it shook my world upside down, right? I'm like, it was, I was cool with my gang being against everybody. That's cool. I like that. But now I gotta be cool with these guys, and I gotta... So for the first two years, I didn't program well. Went to the SHU a lot, the whole-

   10. CWChris Williamson18:21

       What's program well mean?

   11. JCJohnny Chang18:22

       Proning means, uh, it means, like, like, going with the program. Uh, meaning, like, you have to stick with the rules and regulations. I wasn't really good at that. I was still fighting my cellmates and, which is, you can't do the stuff like that. I would get, uh, disciplined. They call it DP, discipline, where if you do something to your cellmate or you act out of character, these guys will beat you up. And so I was getting beat up a lot [laughs] 'cause I was just a knucklehead. And so-

   12. CWChris Williamson18:45

       And this is the, uh, the training, the, the, uh, rhythm of life that you learned in YA-

   13. JCJohnny Chang18:51

       Yes

   14. CWChris Williamson18:51

       ... now being ported across into prison.

   15. JCJohnny Chang18:53

       Yeah. And they knew. They were like, "You're a YA baby, aren't you?" And I'm like, "Yeah." And they're like, "You have to calm down. You will die in here." And I think, uh, you know-

   16. CWChris Williamson19:01

       It seems like it's less violent but more lethal-

   17. JCJohnny Chang19:03

       Yes

   18. CWChris Williamson19:04

       ... in prison.

   19. JCJohnny Chang19:04

       Yes, yes, yes. That's a good way to put it. It was definitely less violent, but more lethal. And when it was violent, it was race against race. So there is no friendlies, as we call it, meaning one-on-ones. It's like, hey, if you disrespect me, the whole race goes to war. So I would see riots, right? One guy did something. "Hey, you stepped into my, out of bounds. You went to my area." And then they'll disrespect, and then everybody goes to war, Blacks, Mexicans, whites, whatever, all together. So yeah, it was, it was crazier. But because of that, there was also this mutual level of respect where it's like, "Okay, you're dangerous and we're dangerous. Like, let's just play."

   20. CWChris Williamson19:42

       We can't play with this.

   21. JCJohnny Chang19:42

       Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson19:43

       Yeah.

   23. JCJohnny Chang19:43

       Yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson19:44

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4. 20:43 – 22:54

   The Hidden Status Hierarchy Inside Prison

   1. CWChris Williamson20:43

      [whoosh]

   2. JCJohnny Chang20:43

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson20:43

      What's the real status hierarchy inside of prison?

   4. JCJohnny Chang20:47

      Um, I mean, it depends, right? Like, general population is where you go there and you don't have a jacket. Now, a jacket is any charge that's very bad, like rape, for example, uh, ch- mo- molestation charges, snitching, um, dropouts, meaning turning away. Those are, like, the bottom of the bottom. GP is top of the bottom, meaning, like, gang members, um, you know, extortionists, sh- loan sh- whatever. They can be at the top only because they're solid and 10 toes, as we say. But if, yeah, if you're doing things like crimes against women, you're seen as, like, the bottom of the barrel, and you can't even be in general population.

   5. CWChris Williamson21:25

      Mm-hmm.

   6. JCJohnny Chang21:25

      Uh, because they'll roll you off the yard, which means if they find out and they check your paperwork, which the first couple months you have to walk around with. Uh, it's like a manila folder. It's a C file, criminal file. You carry it on the yard. This is, again, only California usually. Um, they have a different system, so-

   7. CWChris Williamson21:41

      Like carrying homework around.

   8. JCJohnny Chang21:42

      Yeah. And then they, people who have the keys or representatives, like MAC reps, block reps, they'll open it and be like, "Okay, he's good to stay." If you're no good, which means you have that jacket, you get rolled off. But 9 times out of 10, the correctional officers know they're not gonna let some random dude come into general population, 'cause it's like sharks. You'd have, like, a guppy in a shark tank, right? So they'll put you in S and Y, special needs and sensitive, and, and, or PC, protective custody. Um, but yeah, I was in general population. They call it mainline. So on the mainline, there's different politics, and then PC, I don't know, I've never been, but they have their own politics too.

   9. CWChris Williamson22:20

      Hmm.

   10. JCJohnny Chang22:21

       Um, but basically, yeah, if you're a snitch, if you're no good, if you've, uh, defected from the gang, if you, you know, did crimes against women or children, you are definitely not gonna be with the, the, the, the g- general

   11. CWChris Williamson22:33

       Do you know the word nonce? Do you know what that is?

   12. JCJohnny Chang22:35

       nonce? I don't know what that is.

   13. CWChris Williamson22:35

       Okay. So it's a, like a British slang word for a pedophile.

   14. JCJohnny Chang22:40

       Oh.

   15. CWChris Williamson22:40

       But it's a, it's an acronym, and it stands for not on normal courtyard exercise.

   16. JCJohnny Chang22:47

       Hmm. Okay.

   17. CWChris Williamson22:48

       So that's not too dissimilar to this.

   18. JCJohnny Chang22:49

       Very, exactly like it.

   19. CWChris Williamson22:50

       Not on normal courtyard exercise.

   20. JCJohnny Chang22:51

       Yes.

   21. CWChris Williamson22:52

       Uh, so they're kept off to one side.

5. 22:54 – 29:26

   Why Prison Violence is So Manipulative

   1. JCJohnny Chang22:54

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   2. CWChris Williamson22:54

      What, um, what behavior or behaviors makes someone look weak inside?

   3. JCJohnny Chang22:59

      In prison?

   4. CWChris Williamson23:00

      Yeah.

   5. JCJohnny Chang23:00

      So two things, um, if you back down from anything. So when they ask you to raise your hand, meaning to volunteer for a stabbing, uh, because somebody was in there in general population but turned snitch or ran up a drug debt, and then they do something crazy and they don't pay it back. You have to kinda take care of these people. It's called cleaning house, right? Um, if they don't do it, then you're looked down upon. The second thing is, um, if you don't program correctly, which is, that's part of it. But in the point where if you're sitting there and, you know, um, you're not working out, you're lazy, you're not running the program with people, you're not militant, um, you're not a man, you're not backing yourself up, you're not keeping your word, looked down upon. And again, people get rolled off the yard for that. Um, the last thing is also religion. If you go in there and you turn Christian, big no-no. A lot of people treat you as... I mean, they, they won't treat you like a snitch, but you're, like, just a little bit of, you're like mid-tier.

   6. CWChris Williamson24:03

      Why?

   7. JCJohnny Chang24:04

      Because it's seen as weak. Um, you know, in prison you don't have mental health illness, like awareness. They see mental health illnesses as weakness. So in prison it's all about bravado, right? "Hey, I'm, I'm, I don't cry at night. I'm a gangster." And so, um, they basically, you know, if you're like, "Hey, I'm Christian now," now you can't program. Because if you're a true Christian, you can't enact violence on people, right?

   8. CWChris Williamson24:30

      Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

   9. JCJohnny Chang24:30

      So you can't sin, as they say. And so yeah, I, I would see that. I would see people get rolled off because they're like, "I don't wanna be part of the program." I would see other people, and I would look down on them, you know, transparently, when they would be... I would see, 'cause, you know, in there for a long time, you see people's kind of life s- lives change. They'll go from the most craziest people and then become Christian and be turned down, as we say. Just, they're just not like that anymore. And they'll do things where they'll, they'll cop an unlock. They'll get an unlock to go to church to avoid riot days and-

   10. CWChris Williamson25:00

       Hmm

   11. JCJohnny Chang25:00

       ... like, it's like, "Oh, I'm in church though," you know? So we would really look down on them and be like, "You guys are just women," [laughs] like, yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson25:07

       How quickly does morality change when weakness gets punished?

   13. JCJohnny Chang25:11

       Cr- it's, it's v- very fast. It's swift, right? Um, people go from, I mean, I'll share this story. It's pretty wild, but I remember a dude, he was very respected. Um, he ended up having some allegations brought to him of, like, stealing. And again, in prison, stealing is also, like, a no-no. You're stealing from the poor. Like, everyone's struggling. Why would you steal? So they were saying he was stealing, and no one really believed it at first, but then another guy who was also very solid was like, "He is. He stole my stuff." And sure enough, the proof was there. Um, so he didn't, the guy didn't know that the proof was, like, they gave the evidence, right? And so I remember, um, kinda walking past the dude, and then my friend was like, "Hey, watch what's gonna happen." And I'm like, "Okay." And so the, everyone's shaking his hand, and this other kid, you know, he's young, he just goes up to the guy, and then he goes up to him with another older cat, um, who's, like, kind of like a, like a dude who just puts in work. He's like a grunt, right? And he's like, "Hey, bro, like, big homie, like, you're, you're, you're..." He was a really buff guy, you know? The physique back then is, like, everyone's really ripped 'cause they're working out. He's like, "I bet you you can't do 100 burpees right now." And the guy's like, "What are you talking about? I'll do it right... You're challenging me? All right." And he starts doing them. Boom, boom, he's hitting the burpees, and he's getting gassed-

   14. CWChris Williamson26:33

       Mm-hmm

   15. JCJohnny Chang26:33

       ... because it's a lot.

   16. CWChris Williamson26:33

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   17. JCJohnny Chang26:34

       And he's like, "Yeah, yeah, I bet you can't do more." And he's, like, trying it, right? And then he gets up, and he takes a breath, and then the guy stabs him, boom, and hits him in the chest. And that's, that's the first time I seen someone leak out. So what he was doing was he was getting his heart rate up to, like, make sure he would bleed him out quicker. Yeah. So you'll see things like this where it's like you and him were just friends. You're literally, it looks like it's a friendly game.

   18. CWChris Williamson27:00

       Yeah.

   19. JCJohnny Chang27:00

       But it's all manipulation.

   20. CWChris Williamson27:01

       So insidious.

   21. JCJohnny Chang27:02

       100%. And so when you see stuff like that, it made me go, "I'm not trusting anybody. You're not telling me to do this and do that. You're gonna do something to me," right?

   22. CWChris Williamson27:10

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   23. JCJohnny Chang27:10

       And so morale, yeah, it goes like this, where you're, one minute they're fighting on the, on the yard with you and they're stabbing people for you, and then the next minute they're, they're turning it on you. And so it, it bred this, uh, mindset of you cannot trust anybody.

   24. CWChris Williamson27:24

       Massive distrust.

   25. JCJohnny Chang27:25

       Doesn't matter. Yeah. Doesn't matter who it is. You cannot trust anybody. Yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson27:30

       That's a massive difference, I think, maybe a misconception that civilians probably have about prison violence, just how manipulative and insidious it can be.

   27. JCJohnny Chang27:38

       Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's very, it's, again, like, story, there's hundreds of stories like that where people are just thinking of ways to prey on you. And it really is, in prison, predator and prey, uh, unfortunately, right? You're either, um, from a era where you either catch a body or you be a body. That's how prison is. It's like you either kill somebody or you don't, you know? And if you program, you can hide behind the car a little bit. That's just normal. But there are times where your, your, your number gets called. It's just how it is. It just, it, it's not, you know, every single prison, it's a little bit different, but I can only speak for, like, four yards in California. That's-

   28. CWChris Williamson28:14

       How many, how many, uh, places were you in?

   29. JCJohnny Chang28:15

       I've been to three. So you go to county jail first, YA. But prisons alone, I've been to, like, four separate prisons. Yeah, so I've been to-

   30. CWChris Williamson28:26

       In that one stretch?
6. 29:26 – 33:57

   Johnny’s Most Dangerous Moment Behind Bars

   1. CWChris Williamson29:26

      What was the most dangerous situation that you found yourself in?

   2. JCJohnny Chang29:30

      Um, probably in a riot. Um, I remember, like, cracking one off, and I don't wanna, like, disclose too much of the names and stuff, but basically it was over a drug debt, and then they basically were like, "Hey, Johnny, you know, you..." And this was out of some jealousy, I could just tell. Um, because when people find out that you're, you're short to the house, which means you're going home very, you know, you're short, like, you're gonna be home in, like, a, a month, two months, three months, whatever it is, they start to feel jealous of you. Because if they have all day, meaning they're, they're doing life without parole or life, some people get this idea of like, "Oh, you think you're better than us?" Like, "I'm gonna make it so you throw your life away."

   3. CWChris Williamson30:09

      Mm-hmm.

   4. JCJohnny Chang30:09

      Right? And so, um, it was purely based off of that, and it was, it was my fault. You know, I told somebody who I trusted, um, early, early on, and I guess he remembered when I was gonna get out. And so he, he had LWOP, life without, and I remember he also even dropped down in, in points as well. And at the end of it, you know, he was basically like, "Hey, there's a drug debt. We gotta roll this guy off," basically. He gotta put 'em, put in work, uh, on him. "You have to do it," and he's telling me. And I was like, "Okay." And I wanted to say I was short to the house, but I was like, "I'm gonna look like a-"

   5. CWChris Williamson30:45

      You don't wanna be a bitch.

   6. JCJohnny Chang30:46

      Yeah, exactly. I'm like, "I'm gonna look like a, a girl," right? And so I'm like, "All right. I got you." "So what's gonna happen?" "Well, you're gonna crack it off." And I'm like, "All right, cool," meaning you start it. So I remember this dude, this huge Samoan dude, right?

   7. CWChris Williamson31:00

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JCJohnny Chang31:01

      Big old Uso. He... And, and, um, the homie, I was like, [laughs] like this is all manipulation, but I'm like, I g- I'm too deep now. So he's like, "You, you, you, you guys go together." All right, cool. Six of us, one of him. He was pruno'd out, which is, um, like, like drunk, right? And he was known for, again, running up debt, beating up his cellmates and, but no one would say anything to him 'cause he's huge, right? Um, and uh, I remember just going up to him like, "What's up, Uce? How you doing?" And I shook his hand, and I remember with all my might, I socked him in the face, and he just went pfft, [laughs] like looked at me. And I was like, "Oh, snap." And then he cocked back, and then everybody jumped in on him. And I remember this guy is, like, super strong because we were stomping him out, and he had blood in his mouth, and he was laughing. He's like, "Oh, guys. Oh, stop. Oh." He's like this. And we were just like, "Damn, this guy is, is..." Took six of us. We still couldn't get him, like, you know, uh, completely rolled off. But, you know, uh, then the COs came and the OC, you know, pepper spray and gas and all that. But, um, I... You know, stuff like that where it was very sticky 'cause I, again, I cracked it off. I-

   9. CWChris Williamson32:11

      Mm-hmm

   10. JCJohnny Chang32:12

       ... could've, you know, caught a, a violent charge. That would've been a strikeout for me, right? If they were, if they were to, you know, uh, uh, either snitch or I get caught in the act, um, they would've struck me out. I would've did a minimum of 25 to life there.

   11. CWChris Williamson32:27

       For that one incident.

   12. JCJohnny Chang32:28

       Yeah, yeah. It-- That's just... A- and it, this is like, because court even in prison, where a lot of people catch life is in, is in, in prison. Because they think, like, "Well, I'm already in prison. You can't..." No, you can trump charges in prison. Uh, people have-- I've met many people in there for five-year stretch, and they get called. Their number gets called, and they go and they do a stabbing, and they end up killing the guy. They get caught for it, and now they have, they went from five years to life, right? It's just how, especially California, is like this.

   13. CWChris Williamson32:58

       And what if you refuse?

   14. JCJohnny Chang33:00

       Um, then you get rolled off. Uh, then you get stabbed. Then what's gonna come to them is gonna come to you. And so for me, it was just very difficult to like... It's like damned if you do, damned if you don't. You gotta choose the lesser of the two evils, you know? And, um, yeah. It was more, it was very sadistic in a lot of ways, but also it made me feel, like, this adrenaline of like, "Oh, I can prove myself. Yes, they're using me, but like, I can, I can also do this."

   15. CWChris Williamson33:24

       Sounds intoxicating. The respect that you get sounds intoxicating.

   16. JCJohnny Chang33:27

       100%, 100%. Yeah, it's, it's almost like an addiction in itself. Yeah, some people I know in there till this day are like, they just raise their hand just to... 'Cause it's, it's like you, you get infamous for it.

   17. CWChris Williamson33:40

       Mm.

   18. JCJohnny Chang33:40

       "Oh, that guy did that. Oh, he was in the hole. Whoa, this guy did that. Did you see him?" And it just spreads like wildfire.

   19. CWChris Williamson33:46

       Feels like-

   20. JCJohnny Chang33:46

       Yeah

   21. CWChris Williamson33:47

       ... gangs manufacture belonging better than society does-

   22. JCJohnny Chang33:50

       [laughs]

   23. CWChris Williamson33:50

       ... for some men.

   24. JCJohnny Chang33:51

       That's a bar, 100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. [laughs]

7. 33:57 – 39:04

   The Prison Habits That Are Hardest to Unlearn

   1. CWChris Williamson33:57

      What do you think, uh, what were the hardest things to unlearn after prison?

   2. JCJohnny Chang34:03

      [sighs] The hardest thing to unlearn was that you have your own back and that you're, like, the master of your own destiny. In prison, you learn, yes, they lock you in, but there's this confidence of like, "I made it out." And so there's this heart of, "I can do whatever I want 'cause I've been to, like, the lowest of the low."

   3. CWChris Williamson34:23

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   4. JCJohnny Chang34:23

      So there is a pride in it, and it's, again, an intoxicating pride, and it just feels very high-hearted, is the best way to explain it. So I had to unlearn that. I had to unlearn the criminal mindset, where it was like, "How do I take advantage of this person?" So the manipulative mindset was very difficult for me to learn because, to unlearn, because it's ingrained in you, right? "Okay, well, I'm hungry, so how am I gonna hustle? Okay, I'll take this and have this guy give me these stamps, and then with these stamps, I'll trade it for this person, and I know that person needs money right now, so we'll..." It's like, it's all a ecosystem in itself.

   5. CWChris Williamson35:00

      Where's the vulnerability that can be-

   6. JCJohnny Chang35:01

      Yes

   7. CWChris Williamson35:01

      ... exploited here.

   8. JCJohnny Chang35:02

      Yes, and so I think that was the hardest thing, was people would come to me, like my friends, and I would pick up on patterns. "Oh, he struggles at nighttime, and he wants to do cocaine during these hours." Like, not, I'm not even paying attention. It would just come to me.

   9. CWChris Williamson35:17

      Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

   10. JCJohnny Chang35:17

       Right? So I think, um, unlearning the manipulation definitely was difficult. The anger, uh, that goes from zero to 100 and then back to zero was difficult. It's like every little sign of disrespect, the anger just, you just take it there.

   11. CWChris Williamson35:33

       How quickly were you able to sleep after something like that happened? Would your head hit the pillow and you'd be able to sleep normally at night?

   12. JCJohnny Chang35:39

       Yeah. That's when I felt like I was broken, was when I did the, like, a stabbing in prison, and then I was, like, proud of it. And then it was just like, "Dang, is there something wrong?" And there's, like, that little voice, right? Of like, "There's something wrong," but I would, I would, like, drown that out because I'm like, "No, no, no, no, I'm, I'm good. Like, they deserve..." And I would, I would, uh, try to, I guess, pacify myself but also defend that. "No, they d- see, they were, they did this. They shouldn't have-"

   13. CWChris Williamson36:04

       Justification-

   14. JCJohnny Chang36:04

       Yes

   15. CWChris Williamson36:04

       ... rationalizing.

   16. JCJohnny Chang36:06

       Yes. And so that was also very difficult. I guess the, then accountability, right?

   17. CWChris Williamson36:10

       Mm.

   18. JCJohnny Chang36:10

       It's like, how do you... I, I, I, I remember early on my homies would say that to me, and these are other gang members who do the same thing. So it's, you know it's bad when they're like, "Bro, you're manipulative." I'm like, "You're a manipulator calling me a manipulator," right? So-

   19. CWChris Williamson36:24

       Yeah

   20. JCJohnny Chang36:24

       ... I just remember them saying, like, "You're never wrong." And they would, that, that would be the running joke. Bro's never wrong. Like, don't even talk to him, bro. He's never wrong.

   21. CWChris Williamson36:32

       Hmm.

   22. JCJohnny Chang36:32

       Like, what, what do you mean? Let's get up then let's fight, you know? Like, see? You see what I'm saying? Like, and then just like, "Man, whatever, you're a bitch. Whatever." And then they're just like, "Whatever." And they just knew like that's how he is. He's just been in prison way too long.

   23. CWChris Williamson36:44

       Hmm.

   24. JCJohnny Chang36:44

       And he just, he just thinks he's right all the time, and he pops off.

   25. CWChris Williamson36:48

       A quick aside, you probably heard me talk about LMNT before, and that's because I've started every single morning the same way for the last five years now, which is a cold glass of water with LMNT in it. LMNT is an electrolyte drink mixed with everything that you need and nothing that you don't. It's a science-backed electrolyte ratio of sodium, potassium, and magnesium. No sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients. It reduces muscle cramps and fatigue, supports brain function, and helps to regulate your appetite throughout the day. I genuinely notice the difference when I take it versus when I don't, which is why I don't shut up about it, and also why it's used by everyone from Dr. Andrew Huberman to Olympic athletes and FBI sniper teams. You know, the, the good sniper teams, not the bad ones. Also, they have a no questions asked refund policy, so if you don't like it for any reason, they'll just give you your money back. Plus, they offer free shipping in the US. Right now, you can get a free sample pack of LMNT's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom. That's drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom. Feels like brotherhood requires an enemy in this-

   26. JCJohnny Chang37:50

       Hmm

   27. CWChris Williamson37:50

       ... way. Like you guys are, uh, bound together, bonded together-

   28. JCJohnny Chang37:54

       Yeah

   29. CWChris Williamson37:54

       ... over the mutual tribalism of it not being-

   30. JCJohnny Chang37:57

       Yeah, yeah, yeah
8. 39:04 – 43:01

   Why Life After Prison Is So Difficult to Rebuild

   1. CWChris Williamson39:05

      what was integration like coming back out? 'Cause you've done basically, apart from 67 days-

   2. JCJohnny Chang39:10

      Yeah

   3. CWChris Williamson39:12

      ... what, 12?

   4. JCJohnny Chang39:12

      13 years.

   5. CWChris Williamson39:13

      12 and a half, 13 years-

   6. JCJohnny Chang39:14

      Yeah

   7. CWChris Williamson39:15

      ... back to back.

   8. JCJohnny Chang39:16

      Yeah. It was hard. Um, I remember just unlearning a lot of things that I had to learn. I mean, uh, it did teach me structure. I think that was one of the benefits where I would come home, and I was already just make your bed, you know. It was, it was good. Um, I was kind of like very productive, as weird as that sounds. But I, I, I knew I was broken. Uh, this one incident, it was like couple months after I got out, um, I finally decided like, "All right, I'm gonna get out the house a little bit. I'm gonna explore." 'Cause when you go to prison, there's, there's things that you don't wanna be around. You don't wanna be around too many people. You get this social anxiety because you get, you know, you're like, it's almost like you get claustrophobic.

   9. CWChris Williamson40:00

      Hmm.

   10. JCJohnny Chang40:00

       It's that, that same feeling of claustrophobic but in the open, if that makes sense. Like, it feels better to just be like alone, and so I would feel that, number one.

   11. CWChris Williamson40:09

       You didn't like to be around too many people-

   12. JCJohnny Chang40:10

       No

   13. CWChris Williamson40:10

       ... when you came out?

   14. JCJohnny Chang40:11

       Yeah, because I would be watching their every move. I would see people cross in front of you. Like, when you're speaking and someone walks, like, that's very disrespectful.

   15. CWChris Williamson40:19

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JCJohnny Chang40:20

       Right? And you have to say, "Excuse me," in prison. Like, if I'm walking around someone, "Excuse me," it's very respectful 'cause there's mutual violence. Well, in the world it's not like that. [chuckles] Somebody can run into you and you're just like, "Yo, what the hell?" And then they just keep walking, right? So I, I was like, "All right, let me avoid that 'cause I, I, I know myself I'll catch a case-

   17. CWChris Williamson40:36

       Hmm

   18. JCJohnny Chang40:36

       ... um, and go crazy." So and finally I get out, and I'm like, "All right, I gotta go get some stuff, groceries, whatever." I go to Walmart, and I remember I'm blown away 'cause I'm like, "Yo, you could get like tires and then like, I don't know, food, and it's like all in one," right?

   19. CWChris Williamson40:51

       I'm blown away too. Being British, there's no, we don't have-

   20. JCJohnny Chang40:53

       Oh, really? [laughs]

   21. CWChris Williamson40:53

       ... Supermarkets like... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   22. JCJohnny Chang40:55

       Gotcha. Gotcha.

   23. CWChris Williamson40:55

       Yeah. I'm, I'm-

   24. JCJohnny Chang40:56

       So you know

   25. CWChris Williamson40:56

       ... I'm making an analogy between being British and going to prison.

   26. JCJohnny Chang40:58

       Yeah. [laughs]

   27. CWChris Williamson41:00

       Yeah.

   28. JCJohnny Chang41:01

       But I, you know, I get there, and I remember seeing the correctional or the, the security guard, I'm sorry, and I'm like, "Hey, can you take me to the restroom?" And he kinda looks at me, and he goes, "Yeah, the code is, it's you go all the way in the back to the right. The code is..." And I'm like, "Yeah, but can you take me?" And that's when I realized I'm free, but I wasn't free in here. Because in prison-

   29. CWChris Williamson41:19

       You saw a guy in a uniform.

   30. JCJohnny Chang41:20

       Yeah. And, and that's what they're supposed to do, especially on four yards, is they take... You don't just go to the restroom. You could do contraband. They, they take you there, um, and you gotta like go back f- you know, and have them kinda monitor you.
9. 43:01 – 57:04

   Why Johnny Feared Life Outside Prison

   1. CWChris Williamson43:01

      Okay, so back into the real world.

   2. JCJohnny Chang43:02

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson43:03

      What are you doing?

   4. JCJohnny Chang43:04

      So, uh, I kinda wanna back it up a little bit.

   5. CWChris Williamson43:06

      Yep.

   6. JCJohnny Chang43:06

      Prior to that, I obviously, you know, the, the only religion that was really respected in prison was, was being Muslim. And so I remember seeing a guy, um, he was like my first mentor, I would say. I, you know, my gang being as big as it is, I had a lot of friends who were in prison. So when I hung out with them, we would, I would know them. You know, I would hear about them and stories about them, and actually hung out with them, but I never had a actual mentor-mentor who was like someone I looked up to, right? I looked up to them 'cause they were gangster, but I knew that they couldn't really help me. I remember meeting this guy who was, um, you know, Muslim guy, Middle Eastern guy. He ran with the Others, which is our car, our group, and, um, he was very well respected, which I thought was weird. Okay, so he's religious. He prays. Ramadan comes around. He has a special diet. Bro reads, carries himself very respectfully, works out, you know, all of that. And I remember, um, you know, him just being very respectful to me. He, he knew about my history. "You know, China has 5,000 years of history. You're Chinese, right? You're northern Chinese. You're taller." You know, I'm just like, "What the heck? This guy's giving me a history lesson-"

   7. CWChris Williamson44:14

      Love that

   8. JCJohnny Chang44:14

      ... on my own... Right, exactly. And he just knew. He was this, a smooth networking guy, right? And so he's like, "Yeah, bro, like you got a br-" I remember him saying, "You got a brain." And I'm like, "Okay." And he's like, "You gotta use that, bro. You know what I'm saying?" I'm like, "Yeah." He's like, "With all due respect, you know, I'm just letting you know." And he's like, "You should cell with me." And I was like, "Okay." 'Cause you can make requests to like live with certain people, and I was, I was having an issue with one of my Vietnamese homies, my cellmates at that time, so I was like, "Yeah, I'm gonna make it-"

   9. CWChris Williamson44:40

      How many people per cell?

   10. JCJohnny Chang44:42

       Uh, two. Yeah, so I end up, you know, moving in with him, and yeah, lo and behold, he starts to kinda convert me a little bit, but it was very good. I felt, I think for the first time, a little bit of sense of purpose, 'cause he was like, "Yo, let's get up, bro. Cellie, let's get up. Let's work out, man." And I'm like, "Cool." And he, uh, he would challenge, he'd push me, and, um, I was like in the best shape of my life at that time. And he's like, "You should read this." And he brought me... I remember it was like The Art of War, um, with, um, General Sun Tzu, and he's like, "These are your people, bro. You should read this. Like, you ever done that, man? Buddhism is amazing too, but like..." And he starts talking about Islam. And he's like, "We're a religion of peace, and you know, and I learned everything from it, and my whole family's from this bloodline and these people." And I was like, "Cool." I was like, "Can I be a Muslim?" And he's like, "Yeah, 100%." I was like, "Do you think the homies are gonna feel some type of way?" Meaning the people on the yard.

   11. CWChris Williamson45:33

       Hmm.

   12. JCJohnny Chang45:33

       Like, "Nah, nah, look it. They respect us. Like, the only thing is, like, being Christian, bro." And he said it, you know? He's like, "And there's no disrespect to them, but, like, it's just, it's very hypocritical. So if you do do this, you have to be 100% in it." And I think that's why, and he explained it, that's why people respect Islam, is like when we do it, we're all the way in, praying five times a day. We take it serious-

   13. CWChris Williamson45:55

       Hmm

   14. JCJohnny Chang45:55

       ... because everything else is haram or sin, you know? And, um, I'm like, "Cool. I'll, I'll, I'll do it." You know?

   15. CWChris Williamson46:00

       So Islam's seen as a more rigid, more disciplined religion.

   16. JCJohnny Chang46:03

       100%.

   17. CWChris Williamson46:04

       Because Christianity seems to be... I had, uh, Sam Harris on the show a couple-

   18. JCJohnny Chang46:08

       Yeah

   19. CWChris Williamson46:08

       ... of years ago, and he had this description which I've never been able to forget, and he says that Islam's a high T religion.

   20. JCJohnny Chang46:14

       [laughs]

   21. CWChris Williamson46:15

       It is. It's like a high-

   22. JCJohnny Chang46:16

       Yeah, yeah

   23. CWChris Williamson46:16

       ... testosterone religion.

   24. JCJohnny Chang46:17

       Yeah, yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson46:17

       Whereas Christianity, uh, uh, in many ways is-

   26. JCJohnny Chang46:19

       Yeah

   27. CWChris Williamson46:20

       ... turning the other cheek.

   28. JCJohnny Chang46:20

       Sure, sure.

   29. CWChris Williamson46:20

       It's about forgiveness. It's about grace-

   30. JCJohnny Chang46:22

       Yeah, yeah
10. 57:04 – 1:11:41

    How Johnny Found Purpose Through Christianity

    1. JCJohnny Chang57:04

       Yeah, it was just bad. It was bad and-- But again, did not know what to do, right? I'm like, "Okay, well I guess I'm gonna die then," like, whatever. I'm gonna just live however I want because there's no hope in me. Um, and then my mom's car breaks down and it's in, it's in San Bernardino and that's about an hour away from where we live and the church that she's, she goes to. And at this time, you know, my mom's from Korea. Ethnically though she's Chinese, so she's born in Korea, speaks Korean, speaks Mandarin and English. She's trilingual. Um, she, she then is, gets a job essentially at the church as like an interpreter, right? Um, for the pastors. And she's-- she calls me and she's like, "Johnny, my, my, my car's broken down. Can you come and pick me up?" You know? Um, "Okay, cool. Where are you at?" "San Bernardino." "Oh my gosh, San Bernardino's like an hour away. Like, what are you doing out there?" And she's like, "Well, car overheated. Um, it's hot out here. Can you please just come and take me?" My brother's in prison. He's doing his 14-year bid at this time. My dad is obviously deadbeat dad. He's just not in the picture. He's drunk all the time still. So I'm like, "All right. Let me just go help Mom. You know, let me do this solid for her." I end up going, picking her up, and [chuckles] remember on the car ride to the church I'm like, "Mom, do not invite me to this church. Like, I know how you Christians get down. You guys love to convert people and do all this crap." So I remember telling her I'm not gonna go in.

    2. CWChris Williamson58:25

       Are you con- still considering yourself Muslim at this time?

    3. JCJohnny Chang58:27

       No, no. I was already just kind of like traditionally Buddhist, but like not practicing and kind of just atheist, right? I'm like, there's something but I don't-- it's like I don't care. You know? It's like whatever. So I end up, um, you know, taking her there and then I remember Mom opened the door and then the smell of black bean noodles, uh, enters the, the car and it's my favorite dish, bro. It's like a Korean dish delicacy. It's like a dry cooked noodle. It's amazing. And I smell it and I'm like, "Whoa, this is fire." And I had forgotten that because my dad was a chef, but the one thing he would do which was really weird, and I, now I know why in hindsight, this is 2020, is he would beat me and his way of saying sorry was he would cook black bean noodles for me. And so I almost had this kind of connection to him through that.

    4. CWChris Williamson59:15

       Mm.

    5. JCJohnny Chang59:15

       Where it's like, okay, he would beat me up, but then it would be like the best tasting noodles. And he was a v- he's a really good chef, you know? Um, so I remember that kind of triggered a memory, but it felt like comforting in some kind of way. And so I see the pastor and he just sees me and he's get kinda shocked too like, "Oh shoot," like, "Are you Johnny who-- Are you J-" He goes, "Are you James or are you Johnny?" Which is my, my older brother and me. And I'm like, "Oh, I'm Johnny." He goes, "Well, nice to meet you. I'm Pastor Kim, you know. Um, your mom, you know, I'm so sorry, like your mom kinda drove really far. Um, thank you for picking her up. You know, we'll help her with her car if she needs. It's okay. Um, but yeah, you know, we made some black bean noodles, Johnny, and, um, I can put it in its to-go container and then just send it, send you off your way." And for some reason, 'cause I was really big about respect, in the Asian culture, um, you know, even in prison like if you eat, you don't try to eat by yourself. Like you, you break spread as we say. Like you, you bring everybody together and you just chill and you eat. So in that culture and then kind of in the gang culture it's ingrained, I was just kind of like w- like I feel a little disrespectful if I just took the food and just left.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:00:24

       Mm.

    7. JCJohnny Chang1:00:24

       So I was just like, "Yeah, I'll, I'll come in and eat with you guys." And then my mom I remember looking at me like, "What the hell? You just said you weren't gonna like come in." The pastor was just kind of like, "Oh, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, you can come in. Like sure, no problem. Um, we're all eating, but like yeah." And then I remember him taking me to the back room and yeah, he brought me the, the, the black bean noodles in a bowl, brought me these, um, like daikon. It was like yellow daikon. And when I was eating it, it was so good. I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is amazing." And it was again handmade, homemade, just authentic. Um- And then I sit down with him and then he, he talks about, you know, uh, he starts to ask me questions. And he asks me these, these questions that kind of like piss me off at first 'cause he goes, "Are you a sinner? And do you know what sin is?" Right? And I'm like, "Here we go." [chuckles] So I just tell the pastor like, "Hey, Pastor, respectfully, I was a Muslim, not practicing anymore. I do believe and lean more towards like peace and like Buddhism. Um, so I'm not really here for that, but, you know, respectfully, like I know what sin is, and of course I'm a sinner." And he's just like, "Well, what is it?" Right? And I'm like, "Well, it's you doing evil things that are not, you know, according to God. And, and yes, have I done evil things? [scoffs] Of course. I was in a gang." And then he goes, "Not so. Like, that's not true." And I was like, "What?" And I remember Catholics coming into the prisons. They had, uh, Mormons coming into prisons, other Protestants. Everybody would explain sin as breaking the commandments, messing up, going against God, and you have to repent, right? Sin and repentance. I knew that even though I wasn't a believer. And he w- it's from him, he was like, "No, it's an identity issue." So right there he taught me basically, um, you know, the, the origin of original sin and how it's an identity, and he used a lot of analogies. He was like, "You're born Chinese." And I'm like, "Yes." "Did you choose to be Chinese?" And I'm like, "No. What the heck is this guy talking about? He's about to get racist right now," you know?

    8. SPSpeaker1:02:34

       [chuckles]

    9. JCJohnny Chang1:02:34

       And he's just like, "Do you... If you eat [chuckles] a lot of orange chicken, would that make you more Chinese?" And I'm like, "No." And he goes, "If you eat less orange chicken and fried rice and chow mein, would that make you less Chinese?" And I'm just like, "Bro, get to the point," you know? And he's just like, "So why are you Chinese?" And I'm like, "Why am I Ch- I'm born that way." And he goes, "Exactly." He goes, "Sin is the same way. Um, you're born into this sin. Um, you're trying to do good in your life. You can't. And it's this constant uphill battle." And he goes, "You know what that bleeds into is emptiness. The outcome of trying to do good, an im- imperfect person trying to b- produce perfection, you then keep falling short, and then when you keep falling short, you feel empty." And that's the first time somebody articulated what I was feeling inside of my heart to me.

    10. SPSpeaker1:03:29

        Mm.

    11. JCJohnny Chang1:03:29

        And I'm like kind of blown away 'cause I'm like, first off, this guy's ballsy, right? He's telling me as a gang member that [scoffs] I'm, I'm empty. Basically, I'm not a man. I can't-- I don't have emotional regulation and, you know, maturity and EQ. And he goes, but the thing he follows up with is that's normal. What you feel, Johnny, is normal. Now, all throughout my life, from my dad to even my mom calling me a monster, my dad saying, "I never wanted you," beating me, me being known as a YA number and a CDC, California Department of Corrections number, that's the first time he kind of like humanized me, right? He's like, "You're normal and you're g- you're gonna feel empty until you figure out what I'm about to tell you." And so he then explains it, right? "That's why you need someone to save you out of it. You know, there's this person named Jesus," right? And I'm like, "I know. I've heard of this guy," right? And he goes, um, "We call him our Lord and Savior for a reason." He's like, "It's to... He has to save you." And he used a lifeguard analogy, right? He's like, "If you're drowning and, you know, you're in the middle of the ocean and there's no one around you, what can you only do? Die," right? Um, "But if a lifeguard comes and pulls you out from a boat and puts you on land, you didn't save yourself. The lifeguard saved you. In the same way, you're drowning in your depression, you're drowning in your past trauma, you're drowning in your loneliness, emptiness, anxiety, everything. You can't get yourself out of it. You're trying, and you do well for a little and you fail, and Jesus is the one who has to get you out of it." And I guess for the first time in my life it just clicked. It made sense. No one has ever explained that to me. I think all other religions were always like, "Hey, you gotta do it."

    12. SPSpeaker1:05:13

        Mm.

    13. JCJohnny Chang1:05:13

        There's a level of you meeting God, right? Um, and, and again, it was all mechanical for me. I, I, I realized that, oh my gosh, it's true. Productivity, output was what I was focused on and, and the issue with that is I'm at the center of that. So if I'm putting productivity, if I'm putting, you know, everything depends on my last result, let's say, then yeah, I'm gonna live like a rollercoaster. Of course I'm gonna fail. And so it just, it just made sense to me. You know, he put it in a way that was so palatable and digestible and simple yet profound, and it felt for the first time in my life like true hope in this man. And again, I didn't know him from like a bum on the street. He's this Korean dude, short dude, clean cut. Mind you, he's speaking through a translator as well 'cause his English isn't even good. So this random dude on the side who's just like speaking English and I'm like, "Who the hell are you? You're like all up in our business." But he didn't know how to speak English, right? And so I'm like, okay, all this is happening. My mom's on the side. She's like kinda like getting emotional and he's just like, "Does this make sense, Johnny?" Like I'm like, "Yeah, 100%. So but then what do I do now? Practically speaking, what? Am I just thank you Jesus and that's it? Like everything gets better? I, I don't understand." And so he was explaining, uh, you know, all of these just core concepts to me that I've never heard and basically the best way I could put it is he put like a mirror in front of me for the first time, humanized me, said I was normal and then said, "This is what's wrong with you. This is how I'm gonna help you with these things." So he, he in that moment I didn't realize kind of was mentoring me. Again, something I was longing for, a father figure. Didn't have any of that. And um, yeah, he started to just guide me through these things and I think we ended up staying there for like almost two hours just talking like this. And at the end of it I felt this peace of like Oh my gosh, I, I'm not alone. There is light at the end of the tunnel. I, I now just have to figure out and listen to this dude. He just understands me, which is wild, right? And, um, he challenges me that day, actually, which I think was very, again, very bold of this dude, but I respected it because I'm like, "This guy's, like, really just not a normal person." He goes, "How's your relationship with your father?" And I'm like, " [sighs] Horrible." And I know what's coming, right? "You want me to forgive him?" Like, basically is what I said. And he's like, "No, not necessarily." He's like, "I just-- I wanna show you some scriptures." And he showed me Romans 7:15, Romans 7:20, basically says that there are people that do things that they don't wanna do. Like, they wanna be happy, they wanna be loving, but then they end up addicted, and they do the things that they don't wanna do. He goes, "You, for example, did you ever think you wanted to wake up and go, 'You know what? I'm, I'm gonna be depressed today?'" And I'm like, "No." He said, "You probably hate depression." I'm like, "Yeah." And he goes, "And yet you end up depressed. Why do you think that is?" And I'm like, "I don't know." And then he gives me the verse 7:20. "If I do the things that I'm doing, it's no more I who do it, but sin that dwells in me." And he explains it. "It's because you waking up going, 'I'm not gonna be depressed today, I'm not gonna be this today,' is the same as saying, 'I'm not gonna be Asian today or Chinese today.'" And he's like, "Do you think that's possible or impossible?" I was like, "Impossible." He's like, "And it's also because you've never learned. You've never learned another system other than this system here," right? And so he's like, "I-- if you're willing to, like, I wanna, like, help you with that. But there's one thing that I need from you." And then he talks about my dad, right? He, he goes, "You should apologize to your father." And I'm like, "Literally?" I mean, excuse my language, but I was like, "Fuck that." [chuckles] I straight up told him, "Fuck that." And he was just like, "That's fair. That's valid. Hear me out," [chuckles] you know, "Hear me out." He goes, "I understand." And I'm like, "Where does the vic..." And I couldn't even articulate my words 'cause I was pissed.

    14. CWChris Williamson1:09:09

        Mm-hmm.

    15. JCJohnny Chang1:09:09

        "Where does the, the, the guy that gets beaten up has to say sorry," you know? And he goes, "Yeah, where the victim apologized. Th- it's true." He goes, "But as right as you are, Johnny, you're also miserable. Um, if you're being honest, you know, I've been honest with you, so please be honest with me. Do you ever look at other families and look at other people and go, 'Man, I wish my dad was like that?'" And I said, "Of course." I said, "But that ship has sailed," you know. I was, like, defensive and, you know, "I don't care anymore if he dies. I don't-- I'm not gonna visit him." And he goes, "You know, as right as you are, you're miserable because of that. Um, you're the judge of everything." And so he goes, "The reason why I'm telling you to say sorry is because I have faith that..." And he used an analogy. "When two countries go to war, they're both fighting for what they believe in is true and what they believe is right. And during that time, countries are broken, people die. There is no peace, only chaos."

    16. CWChris Williamson1:10:02

        Mm-hmm.

    17. JCJohnny Chang1:10:02

        He goes, "Your father, however, um, if this word and you believe pertains to you, also pertains to every human being. Would you agree?" And I was like, reluctantly like, "Yeah, that's true. I, I could see that." And he goes, um, "Your dad also probably had some stuff in him, and I'm not saying what he did was okay," but he kind of just humanized my dad. And he goes, "If you say sorry, uh, it's like that country that just concedes. 'All right. Fine. Take the resources. Do whatever you gotta do.' Then they rebuild it, and at least peace flows in, and that's important," right? And so he goes, "You, you know, if you do this, I think your dad would mend the relationship with you." So two hearts I remember came up, two thoughts was, "Why do I even care to mend the relationship with some- somebody like this?" But the other side of it was also like, "Dang, this guy knows what he's talking about. He's dissecting me in a way. He's obviously super smart and articulate. He's thinking on a different level."

    18. CWChris Williamson1:11:00

        Mm.

    19. JCJohnny Chang1:11:01

        "If I don't listen to bro, I think I'm gonna struggle." Like, he has, like, the antidote, and I just felt like I had to hear him out, and I had to try. And so-

    20. CWChris Williamson1:11:12

        Sounds like a lot of respect.

    21. JCJohnny Chang1:11:13

        Yeah, and I super respected him because of that. And, um, again, I was still shocked 'cause I just met this guy. But I just, again, no one has ever articulated anything like that.

    22. CWChris Williamson1:11:23

        He decoded you and sp-

    23. JCJohnny Chang1:11:24

        Yeah. Lit-

    24. CWChris Williamson1:11:24

        ... threw a translator in the space of two hours

    25. JCJohnny Chang1:11:26

        ... literally, literally. And I'm like, "That's crazy." And so, you know, he goes, "I, I, I don't know you." He goes, "But the Bible is about you, and it's about Jesus, and I know the Bible, so that's why I kind of know what you're going through." 'Cause I asked him, "How do you even know these things?"

11. 1:11:41 – 1:16:26

    The Courage of Forgiveness

    1. JCJohnny Chang1:11:41

       So anyways, fast-forward, I end up meeting with my dad, and this is the thing I went viral for, essentially. But I, you know, meet my dad. It's tense. [scoffs] I remember calling him, and the first thing he says is, "Who is this?" And I'm like, "Bro, I'm your son, and you don't even know my voice." 'Cause we haven't seen each other for, like, you know, 12, 13, 14 years. And I'm like, "Yeah, it's Johnny." And he goes, "Uh, I don't have any money." And I was like, "I don't need your money," right? And then I remember just, like, getting so mad at him, but I, like, remembered what the pastor was saying. Like, maybe it's not him.

    2. CWChris Williamson1:12:15

       Is this just after that two-hour meeting?

    3. JCJohnny Chang1:12:16

       This was, yeah, about m- a, a day after. I had to sit on it for a little bit, but it was, like, 24 hours after. And yeah, and then I, I remember just calling him, and I'm like, "Hey, Dad, I wanna meet you somewhere. Um, let's meet up here, Noodle City in, in, on 6th Street in Alhambra," pho restaurant. And he's like, "Yeah, yeah, that's fine. We'll meet." Like, "What do you need? W- we'll meet." So I end up getting there, and it's weird. I see my dad. He's aged now. He's, like, a little chunkier, you know, and he's just like... I see him, I sit down in front of him, and, like, at first, I feel frustration and tension. I remember it was just, like, this feeling of like, "Why am I here? I feel stupid. And if I say something and he doesn't respond the way that I want him to, I'll probably kill him, for real." And so I'm like, "All right," like... [sighs] And I'm sitting there, and he's like, "W- what did you wanna talk to me about?" And I was like "Dad, I'm sorry." Like, I remember just rushing it, right? "I'm sorry, you know, I'm sorry that I was a bad son. I'm sorry that I joined a gang and I ruined your American dream. I'm sorry that I couldn't help you." And I remember not, not even making eye contact with him, just, like, looking down. And I look up thinking my dad's gonna be like, "Yeah, you should be sorry." And he ends up looking at me and I see his eyes, like, he starts to, like, have tears. He starts crying. And he's like, "You know, Johnny, I'm sorry. Like, I waited a very long time for this, you know? But I didn't know how to approach it. Like, the reason why I didn't go to pr- uh, visit you in prison is 'cause I felt like I created you in a way, you know?" And he's ... And I didn't know that. I didn't know that. I always saw my dad as, like, narcissistic, never could be wrong. He's never said, "I love you," and he's never said, "I'm sorry." So I remember just crying, too. It shocked me. And, um, yeah, it felt like that, that those years of pain just pretty much went away. And then I hugged him, which was crazy. So that's the first time he said, "I love you" and "I'm sorry" in the same sentence, and we just reconciled, you know? And then I was like, dang, Pastor's got the wisdom. Like [laughs]

    4. CWChris Williamson1:14:19

       [laughs]

    5. JCJohnny Chang1:14:19

       Like, I, I was literally like, how does bro know this? Like ... And, and I think that, for me, was just enough to be like, okay, there must be a God. There must be. Like, how does ... How is it that I went completely against what I thought and felt and then experienced this, you know? Um, and then he started to train me. That's what surrendering is. You know, surrendering is not, "Oh, let me see if it makes sense, and then I'll let go." Um, faith is also not, "Oh, it needs to make sense, and then I'll let go," right? And so he was explaining that to me. Um, and then over the years he's nurtured me. My dad stopped drinking. My dad met that pastor, too, received salvation as well. Um, he goes to church now. My dad was hardcore, like, not ev- he was agnostic. Like, he was just like, "I don't even..." You know, he went from that to going, "If, if this God changed my son Johnny to be this way, like, there must be something," you know? And, um, he's, yeah, goes to church. It's funny. He used to always talk trash about Christians, too. Like, "All they want is your money," [laughs] you know, and it's like crazy stuff. But looking back at it, I'm just very proud of him. Yeah.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:15:27

       Jared, have you ever considered you might have a drinking problem?

    7. JCJohnny Chang1:15:30

       I don't consider a lot, Chris.

    8. CWChris Williamson1:15:31

       Well, you drank an entire case of Athletic Brewing Co. last night.

    9. JCJohnny Chang1:15:34

       But they're non-alcoholic.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:15:36

        And that's not a problem?

    11. JCJohnny Chang1:15:38

        Sorry, man. I kept chugging waiting for the regret to creep in. Never happened.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:15:42

        Didn't you end up going home with that chick with the lazy eye?

    13. JCJohnny Chang1:15:45

        The eye didn't seem lazy to me.

    14. CWChris Williamson1:15:47

        See, most people, like Jared, don't actually want to change what they drink. They just don't want the next day to be a complete write-off, which is why I'm such a huge fan of Athletic Brewing Co. They make the best NA brews on the planet, so you can still have something cold and tasty, just without the usual trade-off. You can find Athletic Brewing Co.'s best-selling lineup at grocery or liquor stores near you, or best option, get a full variety pack of four flavors shipped direct to your door. Get 15% off your first online order by going to the link in the description below or heading to athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom using the code MODERNWISDOM at checkout. That's athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom and MODERNWISDOM at checkout. Near beer terms and conditions apply. Athletic Brewing Company, fit for all times.

12. 1:16:26 – 1:21:19

    Why Finding Peace Can Feel Like a Battle

    1. CWChris Williamson1:16:26

       Which part of you most resisted becoming peaceful, do you think?

    2. JCJohnny Chang1:16:30

       Ooh, that's a good question. Um, I think the part of me that didn't fully die, and what I mean by that is on both sides of the cross, right, before Christianity and after Christianity, there was this thing that I would struggle with, with, like, there's still me kind of having my hands on the wheel. Like, I still am a master of my destiny in some way. Like, yeah, you can have faith, but you gotta get the, put the steps in and put the reps in. And it was like, again, I was very productive as a human being, right? And disciplined. So I think that part was like, if you let that go, yes, it seems like it's peaceful, but then it was scary because I think what I struggled with was control, right? Like, so in order to have peace, I thought you have to have more control, right? So I used to think I had anxiety and depression because those were my issues.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:17:28

       Mm.

    4. JCJohnny Chang1:17:28

       What I learned and what I realized was I was having control issues.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:17:32

       Mm.

    6. JCJohnny Chang1:17:32

       And what I mean is when things would go Johnny's way and I had a control on it, then I could feel like, oh, okay, I'm safe. Right? Even in prison, I had to control my program, do my own thing. But as soon as I didn't have control, then that would equate to danger and fear, and then not peace.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:17:53

       Mm-hmm. Mm.

    8. JCJohnny Chang1:17:54

       But the Christian mindset is you're not in control. The control comes from, from God.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:18:01

       Mm-hmm.

    10. JCJohnny Chang1:18:02

        And you do, you plan boldly, surrender daily, as we say. So that was the thing that I think was, like, the hardest thing was, okay, I gotta let go of my thoughts and my interpretations and my feelings and go against what the Bible is saying, or I'm sorry, take up what the Bible is saying, which is you can't do anything. He has to do everything. That part scared me.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:18:25

        Mm-hmm.

    12. JCJohnny Chang1:18:25

        But that was the thing they were saying was gonna give me peace. So that was the, the, the, the internal b- battle.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:18:31

        You got the word, uh, passivity, being passive-

    14. JCJohnny Chang1:18:34

        Yeah

    15. CWChris Williamson1:18:34

        ... sort of coming to mind, or this fear of passivity.

    16. JCJohnny Chang1:18:36

        Yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:18:36

        I think this is ... I've had this conversation with a bunch of friends. One of the most valuable traits that I have in my entire life is agency.

    18. JCJohnny Chang1:18:45

        Mm.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:18:45

        Right? My ability-

    20. JCJohnny Chang1:18:46

        Yeah, yeah

    21. CWChris Williamson1:18:46

        ... to happen to life, not for life to happen to me.

    22. JCJohnny Chang1:18:49

        Sure.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:18:49

        And I can see surrender, relinquishing of control, faith, giving yourself over to a higher power.

    24. JCJohnny Chang1:18:57

        Yeah.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:18:57

        If you're the sort of person that's self-made, self-powered-

    26. JCJohnny Chang1:19:00

        Yeah

    27. CWChris Williamson1:19:00

        ... sovereign-

    28. JCJohnny Chang1:19:01

        Yeah

    29. CWChris Williamson1:19:02

        ... uh, blending these two worlds together is-

    30. JCJohnny Chang1:19:04

        Difficult
13. 1:21:19 – 1:25:04

    How Do We Distinguish God’s Voice From Our Own?

    1. JCJohnny Chang1:21:19

       heart to realign."

    2. CWChris Williamson1:21:20

       How do you distinguish between God speaking to you and guiding you-

    3. JCJohnny Chang1:21:24

       Mm-hmm

    4. CWChris Williamson1:21:24

       ... and your own inner monologue?

    5. JCJohnny Chang1:21:26

       Yes.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:21:26

       Because for a very long time, your gut instinct led you to-

    7. JCJohnny Chang1:21:30

       Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good question

    8. CWChris Williamson1:21:31

       ... fire bullets out of a car-

    9. JCJohnny Chang1:21:32

       Yeah

    10. CWChris Williamson1:21:32

        ... or pop off on someone who didn't need a-

    11. JCJohnny Chang1:21:34

        100%. 100%.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:21:35

        How do you learn what is, uh-

    13. JCJohnny Chang1:21:41

        God's voice

    14. CWChris Williamson1:21:41

        ... impulsivity-

    15. JCJohnny Chang1:21:42

        Yeah, yeah

    16. CWChris Williamson1:21:42

        ... and a word that you should listen to?

    17. JCJohnny Chang1:21:45

        Yeah. So for me, it's not ... Again, I think there's a lot of emotionalism in religion nowadays, right? When it comes to the gospel, however, it's about the word. So what I've learned, I've read the Bible front to back 27 times. It's not to flex. What my pastor taught me was you have to go to the word always. So when you seek something, it cannot come from inside of you because your standard can change. Your feelings and emotions can change. Your voices in your head, you can be locked in one day. It can change. It's very ins- unstable. So your job is to go to the word or the servants who know the word, right? So if I'm doing anything, it's always, "What does the word say about this? What can I s- actively search and seek for?" And obviously, when you first start out, you don't know the word like that, so it's a lot of, like, still you leading yourself. But what I learned was if it doesn't match the word of God and doesn't point to God in some way, shape, or form, it's not gonna be from God, no matter how good it feels. And I think that's the issue with a lot of Christians nowadays, is this, this idea of emotionalism, right? It's like-

    18. CWChris Williamson1:22:51

        Mm

    19. JCJohnny Chang1:22:51

        ... if I follow myself ... Exactly. I thought I would die for my hood, and that led me to shoot and be like, "Well, I did it for my homies. I'm protecting them." Like, we could spin it however we want because it's subjective and relative. Um, the absolute for me was the word. It went completely against my thoughts and my feelings. Literally says in the Bible, "My thoughts are not your thoughts. My way is not your way. So get to know me," meaning the word. Um, when I started to l- read it five times front to back, you know, cover to cover, I started to get this discernment. "Oh, this is what God would want in this way." So when you move it th- this way, it's no longer you, "Johnny, what do you think?" I think the issue with a lot of people in, in religion aside, is I am the judge. And again, I can be the judge if everything's going good, but what if I'm handicapped? What if I'm broken? What if I'm empty? Then what I produce will be probably those things as well, right? And so, um, yeah, I had to unlearn a lot of that and go, "I can't really follow." You know, obviously we have practical thoughts. Am I hungry? [laughs] Should I do this, right? But I'm saying when things come, it has to ... Like, when a opportunity comes, what ... The way I'm thinking is, "What does scripture say about this? What would God think about this," right? At the very least, this, you're, you're realigning foundationally-

    20. CWChris Williamson1:24:11

        Mm

    21. JCJohnny Chang1:24:11

        ... versus, "Oh, yeah, I want that deal 'cause I want it," and then trying to bend God's will to, like, [laughs] you know, do that, right?

    22. CWChris Williamson1:24:17

        Mm-hmm.

    23. JCJohnny Chang1:24:17

        So, um, uh, I think, uh, that's the difference between, you know, what I believe in versus someone going, "Well, God told me." Okay, God told you, but in Hebrews 4:12, it says, "Discernment comes from the word." So God told you. Where's the scripture to back up what he told you? And that's the center line. It's a lot of people, "God told me. He put it in my heart. I download it." Okay, great. What I'm looking for after that is what scripture is saying, and Holy Spirit, it's called the spirit of truth, will lead you back to the word it says, right?

    24. CWChris Williamson1:24:46

        Mm.

    25. JCJohnny Chang1:24:46

        So you can't just be like, "Holy Spirit told me to buy a Ferrari," bec- and it's like, sure, but [laughs] where's the scripture to line this up, right? Um, and if they can back it up, and the scripture always points back to Jesus, John 5:39, that's how we know, oh, this is the voice of God. This is how God speaks

14. 1:25:04 – 1:27:25

    Is Turning to Religion a Sign of Weakness?

    1. JCJohnny Chang1:25:04

       to us.

    2. CWChris Williamson1:25:05

       Did becoming Christian ever feel like becoming weak? Uh-

    3. JCJohnny Chang1:25:08

       100%.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:25:09

       For a good while, self-powered-

    5. JCJohnny Chang1:25:11

       Mm

    6. CWChris Williamson1:25:12

       ... agentic-

    7. JCJohnny Chang1:25:13

       Yeah

    8. CWChris Williamson1:25:13

       ... I'm gonna make things happen. Then you get into prison, high tea religion, right?

    9. JCJohnny Chang1:25:17

       [laughs]

    10. CWChris Williamson1:25:17

        Islam, and now you're f- you know, within 24 hours, forgiving your dad.

    11. JCJohnny Chang1:25:22

        Yeah.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:25:22

        You're turning the other cheek.

    13. JCJohnny Chang1:25:23

        Yeah.

    14. CWChris Williamson1:25:23

        You're crying. He's crying.

    15. JCJohnny Chang1:25:25

        Yeah.

    16. CWChris Williamson1:25:25

        This is not- There, there, there's a, a big disconnect between the person that you were and the person-

    17. JCJohnny Chang1:25:30

        Yeah

    18. CWChris Williamson1:25:30

        ... that you're becoming now.

    19. JCJohnny Chang1:25:31

        Yeah, yeah. I think it did, um, until I realized that my filter of, like, what weak and strong was, was distorted. I think it took a lot of-- I mean, [chuckles] honestly, I know this sounds crazy, but, like, when I was in the gang, like, pulling the trigger and doing things like that was fairly easy for me. Because for me, it was like, "Bro, this is a chance for you to shine," right? Like, people are going to be enamored by you when you do thi- they're gonna love you for doing this. Um, [scoffs] when you're Christian and you're like, "Turn the other cheek," it's like, okay, that's kinda performative in a lot of ways, at least for me.

    20. CWChris Williamson1:26:08

        Mm.

    21. JCJohnny Chang1:26:08

        So I learned, like, you know, it, it was a lot harder, uh, to be a Christian. [chuckles] Uh, you know, and I say this all the time. It's like my gang had six other gangs that were against us. We were in a green light against the Mexicans. Um, and, you know, no one liked us. We were EBK, stands for Everybody Killer. We weren't cool with anybody. How is it that I'm getting more, I'm, I'm getting more attacked now that I'm Christian [chuckles] than I was when I was in a gang?

    22. CWChris Williamson1:26:38

        Mm.

    23. JCJohnny Chang1:26:38

        No one cared about what I said. No one made videos about me back then.

    24. CWChris Williamson1:26:41

        Mm.

    25. JCJohnny Chang1:26:41

        Um, so, you know, it just goes to show that, uh, it is, it's weak in a, in a sense of sure, like bravado, high t- ta- you know, high T and testosterone. But at the end of the day, I think it's actually tr- it takes a, a lot of strength to go, "I wanna handle it the easy way and the easy route," which is being violent, so that ev- I'm, I-- why would I talk to you? I just beat the dog crap out of you. Or, um, sh- do I choose, you know, to go, "They may be wrong, but let me, like, hear them out. Let me, like, be human and rationalize with people and have dialogue"? Um, I think that was very, very difficult, but once I learned it, it just became-- It was like, uh, it was like strength almost, you know?

15. 1:27:25 – 1:29:59

    Why Are Vulnerable Conversations So Hard?

    1. CWChris Williamson1:27:25

       On the list of things that you've done in your life, how high up the scary ranking does having that conversation with your dad go?

    2. JCJohnny Chang1:27:33

       Oh, that was, yeah, one of the s- that was right next to going back to prison to preach, so they, they go neck and neck. So I would say it's, like, one and two.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:27:42

       Uh-huh.

    4. JCJohnny Chang1:27:43

       You know? It, it just switches-

    5. CWChris Williamson1:27:44

       Yeah

    6. JCJohnny Chang1:27:44

       ... depending on the mood.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:27:45

       But that's my point, that-

    8. JCJohnny Chang1:27:46

       Yeah

    9. CWChris Williamson1:27:46

       ... um, the bravado side of what does real strength look like?

    10. JCJohnny Chang1:27:54

        Yeah.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:27:54

        What does rea- real fearlessness-

    12. JCJohnny Chang1:27:56

        Yeah

    13. CWChris Williamson1:27:56

        ... look like? Um, it's strange. Like, how, how is it that somebody can run an ultramarathon 100 miles but not have a difficult conversation with their partner?

    14. JCJohnny Chang1:28:04

        Mm.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:28:05

        You know?

    16. JCJohnny Chang1:28:05

        Facts.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:28:05

        Where are you applying your I do hard things muscle?

    18. JCJohnny Chang1:28:10

        Mm.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:28:10

        You know, a lot of the time people will be prepared to get up at 4:00 in the morning, and do the ice plunge, and go for the run and-

    20. JCJohnny Chang1:28:16

        Yeah, yeah

    21. CWChris Williamson1:28:16

        ... stick to their diet. But they can't tell their parents that something really got to them that happened last week.

    22. JCJohnny Chang1:28:23

        Yeah.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:28:24

        Or they're scared of opening up to their friend about how they're-

    24. JCJohnny Chang1:28:27

        Yeah

    25. CWChris Williamson1:28:27

        ... getting on mentally. And you go, okay, well, that's not f- I'm not saying that the-

    26. JCJohnny Chang1:28:31

        Um

    27. CWChris Williamson1:28:31

        ... cold plunge and the 4:00 AM run is not tough. It is.

    28. JCJohnny Chang1:28:34

        Sure.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:28:34

        But it's, it seems obvious that there's certain areas of your life where you're prepared to be tough.

    30. JCJohnny Chang1:28:39

        Yeah.
16. 1:29:59 – 1:41:51

    Is Forgiveness Actually Selfish?

    1. JCJohnny Chang1:29:59

       Yeah.

    2. CWChris Williamson1:29:59

       What have you learned about forgiveness?

    3. JCJohnny Chang1:30:02

       Um, I've learned that forgiveness is not usually for the other person, but for you. I think when you're forgiving somebody, a lot of people have this misconception, at least I did, where it's like, "Hey, I'm gonna forgive this person, um, because they deserve it." And I think that's why they struggle with forgiving, right? Because you're not gonna forgive somebody who doesn't deserve it. It's just natural. Um, what I realized was forgiving somebody was like you taking off the shackles of yourself and just making the decision of going, "I'm never gonna let these people, like, have that control or part, uh, uh, influence on, on my emotion or, or on my life," you know? So I think the hardest thing to learn, that I learned from the, uh, forgiveness, uh, was also the, the most beautiful thing is, like, it's not for them. It's actually important for you to move forward. The second thing I also learned was it became easier when I was able to think outside of myself too, right? So it goes like double-edged sword. Yes, you gotta think about yourself, of course, 'cause, you know, that matters. But you also have to take, you have to have the, I guess, the maturity to step out of yourself and go, "Where was I like this?" So, you know, I'll give you an example. Like, when it came to my father and I saw that he was, he betrayed me. He promised things, you know, to us as kids. I remember he wasn't always bad. Like, there was certain times where he would try to, like, said he was gonna take us to Universal or Disneyland and then didn't do it 'cause he got drunk, and I felt that betrayal. Uh, the way that I was able to think was, "Okay- Outside of people doing me dirty, how many times did I betray other people? And then how many times did I betray, okay, forget other people, how many times did I betray God? Right? I'm sitting there and I'm like, "Jesus, I'm gonna do this," and then I don't do it. Um, you know, "I'm gonna- I'll stop this for you," and I, I don't stop. Then in that way, I was able to be like, whoa, the fact that my dad is still breathing, um, the fact that he, you know, and other people who did me dirty are, are, are still alive is proof that there's mercy there. 'Cause if God had to destroy, um, that person or reprimand that person, then I also would have to be reprimanded as well-

    4. CWChris Williamson1:32:21

       Mm

    5. JCJohnny Chang1:32:21

       ... 'cause I did the same thing, and we're all the same. Um, so I think for me, uh, it, it just made me, you know, yes, think about myself, but then also think outside of myself and go, "Man, God, like w- how many times did I do you dirty?" [laughs] Like many, many times, and I continue to. It's just part of our broken nature, and yet you don't, like, send a lightning bolt and strike me down.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:32:44

       Yeah.

    7. JCJohnny Chang1:32:44

       You don't, you know, you're, you're very loving to me to still, you give me opportunities and, and you bless me. And so yeah, it also had to take me to think outside of myself, and I think that's a very difficult thing that I see with a, a lot of people. Yeah.

    8. CWChris Williamson1:33:00

       Is it harder to forgive yourself or forgive your dad?

    9. JCJohnny Chang1:33:02

       Hmm. It was harder to forgive myself, I would say, 'cause I've... [sighs] Like, my dad, after understanding that he had trauma, that he had, at 19 years old, ran over somebody and took the guy's life, you know, his dad was an alcoholic and beat him, like, it was easier to go, "Okay, I get it," you know? I'm the same. We're literally two peas in a pod. What was difficult was there's times where I knew what I was doing was wrong, and I still did it.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:33:31

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    11. JCJohnny Chang1:33:32

        I think that was very difficult.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:33:33

        Consciousness.

    13. JCJohnny Chang1:33:34

        Yeah.

    14. CWChris Williamson1:33:35

        Yeah.

    15. JCJohnny Chang1:33:35

        Yeah. It, it was like I would, I would be lying, you know? And, and the one thing I, I, I think I've seen across all convicts, you know, I've been to many prisons i- in my life, and just even now visiting, is nobody talks about their crimes. Like, true people who really have done dirt, they don't talk about it. Um, and I realize it's because it brings so much shame and guilt, right? 'Cause when you're doing something like that, and you're boasting about it, I mean, you see, like, rappers and stuff [laughs] like that's the cool thing to do. That's what they, their, their persona. But I've seen real convicts who they look completely great, book smart, jailhouse lawyers, and look like they would never hurt a fly. And you, you hear, like, they leak a little what they did, and you're like, "Dude, you're a monster. You killed five people." Like, what the hell? It's, like, crazy. Um, so what I see in, in that is that there's a lot of guilt and there's a lot of shame, and we don't, we just don't, you wouldn't wanna rehash or talk about those types of things. So that being said, it's very difficult because the condemnation comes.

    16. CWChris Williamson1:34:45

        Mm.

    17. JCJohnny Chang1:34:46

        You chose, you knew.

    18. CWChris Williamson1:34:48

        Yeah.

    19. JCJohnny Chang1:34:48

        And you even had a choice.

    20. CWChris Williamson1:34:49

        You feel culpable.

    21. JCJohnny Chang1:34:50

        Yeah. Exactly. And you're just like, "So what? You still did it." And I think that's the most, uh, that was the toughest thing for me was to be like, [clicks tongue] okay, God forgave me, but, like, I still remember my sins. I still remember what I did.

    22. CWChris Williamson1:35:06

        Yeah.

    23. JCJohnny Chang1:35:06

        And it was very difficult. But, uh, thankfully-

    24. CWChris Williamson1:35:09

        Forgiving yourself for not forgiving yourself yet-

    25. JCJohnny Chang1:35:11

        Yeah

    26. CWChris Williamson1:35:11

        ... is an interesting line.

    27. JCJohnny Chang1:35:12

        Yeah. [laughs]

    28. CWChris Williamson1:35:13

        Like, I, uh-

    29. JCJohnny Chang1:35:14

        Yeah

    30. CWChris Williamson1:35:14

        ... I, I recently went and did a, a seven-day meditation retreat, and one of the days we focused on forgiveness. It was very interesting. And the loop that they got you into, because it was all high-powered Silicon Valley people-
17. 1:41:51 – 1:52:51

    Why Returning to Prison Terrified Johnny

    1. CWChris Williamson1:41:51

       Why was it so scary going back into prisons to-

    2. JCJohnny Chang1:41:54

       Hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:41:55

       To-

    4. JCJohnny Chang1:41:55

       I think it was the pride. Uh, just how they would see me, and especially 'cause that first prison was like my alma mater. It was the one I was at. Um, yeah, so going back to the spot that I was at where everyone knows.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:42:09

       How long was-

    6. JCJohnny Chang1:42:10

       Uh, the stretch was only... I was out, pfft, three year, two years, two and a half years.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:42:16

       So still tons of people in there that would've known you. Most of them?

    8. JCJohnny Chang1:42:19

       Most of them. That's how it was. It was like a homecoming, w- a welcoming party, right?

    9. CWChris Williamson1:42:23

       What was that like? Driving back, uh, riding.

    10. JCJohnny Chang1:42:27

        Yeah. I, I straight up had a panic attack. So I remember, um, you know, my pastor's like, "Hey Johnny, you went through this crazy stuff in life." He showed me Revelation 12:11. He said, you know, uh, "We overcome by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony," meaning you can help people overcome with Jesus and/or your testimony. And I'm like, dang, I gotta talk about my story. [laughs] Like, oh my gosh, like how detailed do I have to be? Like some of this stuff is cold cases and you know what, oh, you know, like what am I doing here, right? Am I gonna end up back in prison? And so I try to-- because u- up until then, He's led me, just changed my life completely. You know, transformed me a lot. And so, um, yeah, I remember he goes, "We got a contract with this prison," and it was the prison that I was at and I was like, "Oh my gosh, like I'll go to any other prison except for that one." But at that time this was like, you know, uh, just very-- like the prisons were not allowing volunteers to really come in. It was very difficult. Right? But we, we got it and it just so happened to be that prison and only that prison. [laughs] So I, I, you know, I say okay to pastor, but as the days, and this was a week before, I get to the day of and Full on panic attack. Oh, the homies are in there. One of my homies is still, like my cellmate's still in there. Like they- they've seen me crack off riots, and now I'm in here like, "Jesus can help you, too." It's like, it feels fraudulent.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:43:57

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    12. JCJohnny Chang1:43:58

        And I was just like, "Nah." And then I started getting mad. Like I realized when I get scared, I get angry, right? When I get sad, I get angry. It alw- it's just this thing of like anger at the end of it. So I just remember like blowing up pastor, like, and then he wasn't picking up. And I'm like, okay, me being a man of my word is very big to me. I told him yes, I'm p- I'm panicking. All right, let me try this prayer thing. You know, I'll pray, and I'm driving to the prisons, and I'm with my friend. He's, he's a minister at this time. He's a pastor now, but he was a minister. And he's like, "Johnny, it's okay, you know?" Again, he's never lived that life, never, you know. And he's-- I'm like, "Don't say nothing, bro. Like you don't understand." I'm like popping off on him. Um, we get there, and I see the COs, and I s- and I'm like, I turn me back around-

    13. CWChris Williamson1:44:44

        Did they know that it was you that was coming?

    14. JCJohnny Chang1:44:46

        Of course.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:44:46

        Right.

    16. JCJohnny Chang1:44:47

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:44:47

        Right.

    18. JCJohnny Chang1:44:47

        But 'cause you have to, you know, you have to submit your in- information before that. And, um, I see them, and then I'm just like, "Bro, we don't even make it to the gate, bro." I, I'm like, "Turn around." And then he's just like, "What? Are you serious? We drove like almost two hours." I'm like, "Turn the F around," like cussing. And he's like, "Oh," and he calls, and he's blowing up pastor, and then he calls pastor's wife, and pastor's wife is with pastor, gives him the phone, and he's like, "Pastor, you know, Johnny's not listening, and he's just pissed." And I'm like, "I don't give a F," you know? And then I, I pick up the phone, and he's like, "Can I talk to Johnny?" And he picks up the phone. And he goes, "Johnny, what's going on?" I said, "Pastor, uh, I don't wanna do this. If I have to leave religion, and I, I'll, I will denounce Christianity. If you're making me do this, this is too much of a cross for me to bear. It's too much." [chuckles] And pastor goes... [scoffs] He just laughs. And I'm like, "What the hell?" And he goes, "You know what's funny?" And I'm, and I'm enraged at this point, infuriated. "What's funny? Like, what are you talking about? You're not the one f- going in, you know? You don't have this compounded trauma." And he goes, "Think back to when you did drugs. Think back to when you robbed people. Did you ever have a thought of like, 'I shouldn't be doing this. I should never do this. What the hell is wrong with me?'" And I thought about it, and I was like, "No." He's like, "Would you get this angry if like you, you know, would do drugs? You'd probably be very happy, right?" Yeah. He goes, "Don't you think it's kind of funny that now that you're trying to do the work of God, you're trying to go there and actually potentially help people, all of a sudden you're getting attacked this way?" And I think through that, he taught me the lesson of spiritual warfare. He's like, "When you're trying to do good, there's always evil in there, right?" He says, "In, in Romans 7," he said, verse 18, 19. And he's like, "So you, Johnny, like I think the enemy is threatened by what you're gonna do. I think, you know, if you just walk and take a step, I think it'll, you'll, you'll... Again, just like with your father when you were having a panic attack with him and you were stressed out and you weren't sure, I think, you know, you can experience that, right? And this is a good chance and a good opportunity for you to walk by faith 'cause it doesn't make sense. Yeah. Why would I be so insensitive? That's what your thoughts are telling you. But I want you to learn how to experience God, how to grow with God, and how to like walk forward and break this, you know?" And it ma- again, it made sense, and I'm like, but it w- it didn't make it easier, right? And I, being honest, I'm like, "I... Yeah, I'm not gonna do that." But him saying that, it took me another week of processing it, of going, "He's wrong, but he's right." But it was like this internal struggle, right?

    19. CWChris Williamson1:47:37

        So you didn't go in that first time?

    20. JCJohnny Chang1:47:38

        No, I didn't. I didn't. I didn't.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:47:39

        Wow.

    22. JCJohnny Chang1:47:39

        And so, yeah, and I was waiting for him to like, almost waiting for him to pop off on me so I can utilize that as an excuse to leave.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:47:47

        Mm.

    24. JCJohnny Chang1:47:48

        'Cause I was a runner, too, in that way, where I'm like, "I'm not gonna face this. I'm out. This Christian life stuff is too hard for me," you know? Um, fast-forward a week-

    25. CWChris Williamson1:47:56

        Which is fascinating saying that as someone that was inside for 13 years.

    26. JCJohnny Chang1:47:59

        Yeah. [chuckles]

    27. CWChris Williamson1:48:00

        Christianity's too hard. Prison for a decade and a half, fine.

    28. JCJohnny Chang1:48:02

        Exactly.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:48:03

        Yeah.

    30. JCJohnny Chang1:48:03

        Crazy. But, um, he, you know, after processing what he said, I was truly able to see like, man, he's right. Like as much as I'm being mad and frustrated and being immature, like he is right. So I went back, and I did talk to him again. And he's like, "Johnny, you don't have to go. I just want you to understand, like I just, I'm only challenging you up 'cause I'm calling you up," right? And it's kind of like, again, like working out. You know, you, you can't just be lifting five pounds. Like you gotta grow, bro. And he's like, "And I, it's because I love you. I care about you." And so I'm like, " [sighs] Okay, you know, I'll try again." Same thing happened. I was driving over there, panic attack.
18. 1:52:51 – 1:59:01

    What Would Johnny’s 12-Year-Old Self Think Now?

    1. CWChris Williamson1:52:51

       What do you think twelve-year-old Johnny would think if he could see you now?

    2. JCJohnny Chang1:52:55

       Oh my gosh, bro. That's a great question. Um, [scoffs] I think I wouldn't... If the twelve-year-old me wouldn't obviously believe and would probably just be like, "Whoa, you're famous." [both laughing] Like, you know what I mean? Like-

    3. CWChris Williamson1:53:13

       Yeah

    4. JCJohnny Chang1:53:13

       ... that's it. Like-

    5. CWChris Williamson1:53:14

       Yeah

    6. JCJohnny Chang1:53:14

       ... "Whoa, you're famous, dude."

    7. CWChris Williamson1:53:15

       Yeah.

    8. JCJohnny Chang1:53:15

       "Awesome."

    9. CWChris Williamson1:53:16

       Sick tattoos.

    10. JCJohnny Chang1:53:17

        Yeah, like-

    11. CWChris Williamson1:53:17

        Nice YouTube channel.

    12. JCJohnny Chang1:53:17

        Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dope YouTube. Can I get on? You know, like-

    13. CWChris Williamson1:53:20

        Yeah. Yeah

    14. JCJohnny Chang1:53:21

        ... um, but truthfully too, also, um, I, I don't think I, I, I would understand. I think at that time it wasn't that I was unreachable, but I just think that my mind was so set on, like, looking up to somebody. Um, yeah, if I had someone like me who understood at that moment, I wouldn't end up the way I was, for sure.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:53:43

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    16. JCJohnny Chang1:53:43

        But, um, if... I, I didn't even know that. Like, I didn't know that people like this existed. I was just very, like, gang members, they're the, they're the top dogs. You have to be that.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:53:55

        Yeah.

    18. JCJohnny Chang1:53:55

        And so I, I think I probably would've thought I was lame, [laughs] like, in a way.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:53:59

        Mm-hmm.

    20. JCJohnny Chang1:54:00

        Like, he's cool, he's famous, but as soon as you say the Christian stuff, oh, cool, bro. Like, it's just, I think that's, if I'm being honest-

    21. CWChris Williamson1:54:06

        You're not aggressive enough. You're not hard enough.

    22. JCJohnny Chang1:54:08

        Yeah, yeah. And then, um, you know, I, I think I had to go through all of that to recognize that. You know, I've seen so many people that are like me, super peace, one, and people come up to me, "Bro, like, you really were, you locked up? Really? You did the..." Like, you don't even have that, those tendencies. But I don't think they understand, like, the chaos I've been through, that's why. And I think at a point you do get to this point where you just want, like, serenity, and you just want, like, happiness and peace. So you do end up just being chill. [chuckles]

    23. CWChris Williamson1:54:42

        You can't enjoy any of it if you don't have peace, dude.

    24. JCJohnny Chang1:54:44

        Hundred percent.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:54:44

        There is no-

    26. JCJohnny Chang1:54:46

        Yeah.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:54:46

        And I'm fortunate enough to have been around, you know, some of the richest, most well-known, high-status people on the planet.

    28. JCJohnny Chang1:54:53

        Yeah.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:54:54

        It-- There is no amount of socioeconomic or follower count escape velocity-

    30. JCJohnny Chang1:55:01

        Mm
19. 1:59:01 – 1:59:58

    Where to Find Johnny

    1. JCJohnny Chang1:59:01

       Yeah.

    2. CWChris Williamson1:59:02

       Johnny, you're the best, dude.

    3. JCJohnny Chang1:59:03

       Thank you, bro.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:59:04

       You absolutely rule.

    5. JCJohnny Chang1:59:05

       Appreciate you, bro. Appreciate you.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:59:06

       You're really fantastic.

    7. JCJohnny Chang1:59:07

       Thank you.

    8. CWChris Williamson1:59:07

       Where should people go? I know you've got so much stuff going on.

    9. JCJohnny Chang1:59:09

       Yeah.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:59:09

        Where, where should people go to check out more of your stuff?

    11. JCJohnny Chang1:59:11

        Um, so we have a app on the App Store. It's called Korothar Daily. It's my 10 years of teachings, my secret notes, everything, um, placed into the app. It's available on any app store, p- Play Store. It's free. Um, and yeah, it, it ha- It starts with a devotional. Um, and then you guys can find me on all social media platforms, Johnny Chang Live, TikTok, Instagram, YouTube. And I stream live where I do these Q and A's. A lot of people come up, "Why does God allow babies to die?" You know, these hard questions, I like answering them, so you guys can find me there, too.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:59:42

        Appreciate you, man.

    13. JCJohnny Chang1:59:42

        Yeah.

    14. CWChris Williamson1:59:42

        Until next time.

    15. JCJohnny Chang1:59:43

        Thank you. Good to see you.

    16. CWChris Williamson1:59:44

        All right. Goodbye, everyone.

    17. JCJohnny Chang1:59:45

        Appreciate you. All righty.

    18. CWChris Williamson1:59:45

        Dude.

    19. JCJohnny Chang1:59:46

        [laughs]

    20. CWChris Williamson1:59:47

        Fucking dope.

    21. JCJohnny Chang1:59:48

        Yeah. [laughs]

    22. CWChris Williamson1:59:49

        Yeah. Yeah.

    23. JCJohnny Chang1:59:49

        Thank you, bro.

    24. CWChris Williamson1:59:49

        Yeah, you rule. Congratulations. You made it to the end of a podcast episode without dying. Now, here's another one. Go on, watch it.

Episode duration: 1:59:59