Why Nobody Feels Loved Anymore - Sonja Lyubomirsky

1. 0:00 – 2:51

   Why Do We Need to Feel Loved?

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      You've been studying happiness for thirty-six years

   2. SLSonja Lyubomirsky0:02

      Mm-hmm

   3. CWChris Williamson0:02

      Is there a commonality between all of the most effective happiness interventions that you've found?

   4. SLSonja Lyubomirsky0:08

      Yes. Well, thank you for aging me. But yes, thirty-six years. So actually, it was nineteen ninety-eight, my lab pioneered happiness interventions. So ninety-eight, a long time ago, twenty years ago, Bill Clinton was in the White House. Um, and so I've been doing research on these interventions, testing whether practices like, uh, expressing gratitude or doing acts of kindness or being social makes people happier. So interventions are like clinical trials, but instead of testing a vaccine, we're testing like a happiness strategy. And then one day it finally hit me that what all these interventions had in common is the ones that worked, the reason they worked is because they made us feel more connected to and loved by others, right? So when I write a gratitude letter to my mom, it makes me feel more loved by her, right? When I do an act of kindness for a colleague or a friend, makes me feel closer to him. So almost all happiness practices, maybe not all-

   5. CWChris Williamson0:57

      Hmm

   6. SLSonja Lyubomirsky0:57

      ... like maybe if you run on the beach or meditate, it's not about connection-

   7. CWChris Williamson1:00

      Mm-hmm

   8. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:00

      ... but almost all of them are about feeling connected and feeling loved.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:04

      Why?

   10. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:07

       We-- I think the human species wouldn't have survived if we did not feel connected and loved, and it's a, a extremely strong signal. And so what I concluded is the key to happiness is feeling connected, which sounds like a cliché, right?

   11. CWChris Williamson1:20

       Mm-hmm.

   12. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:20

       But... And when you think about, like, in our ancestral past, if we did not feel connected and loved, we wouldn't survive. We wouldn't find mates, like we wouldn't pass on our genes. So it's just, it's incredibly important. It's one of the most important tasks of human beings is, is to sort of maintain connection.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:36

       Okay.

   14. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:36

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson1:37

       So to take a bit of an evolutionary lens-

   16. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:38

       Yeah

   17. CWChris Williamson1:39

       ... uh, if you are not belonging to the tribe, mattering to the tribe, understood by the tribe, uh, and a part of that, a human on its own twenty thousand years ago isn't going to last very long. Therefore, it's important for you to get back into connection. It doesn't seem to me, though, that unhappiness necessarily drives people back to connection and love. It can often make people behave in ways, have habits and a demeanor that actually makes them kind of hard to love.

   18. SLSonja Lyubomirsky2:05

       Right. So it's not really unhappiness that drives them back to connection. It's not feeling loved-

   19. CWChris Williamson2:09

       Hmm

   20. SLSonja Lyubomirsky2:09

       ... or feeling lonely, which actually is very d- very similar to feeling unloved. I think actually a lonely moment and a moment where you don't feel loved are, are almost identical. And, and they're, again, they're a signal to, to us humans that something's awry, something's amiss.

   21. CWChris Williamson2:23

       Hmm.

   22. SLSonja Lyubomirsky2:24

       I need to m- you know, regain, reconnect that connection. I actually was feeling a little lonely a few weeks ago, and I actually, I don't usually feel lonely. I have lots of friends and family who love me. And I left a message for a friend, and she just actually just left me a message back yesterday. And she said, "Oh, I feel so, so sorry for you, like, so, feel so bad. I wish I were there." And she's like, "Sonja, feeling lonely is a signal that, you know, you need to kind of put more effort and energy into reconnecting." So-

   23. CWChris Williamson2:50

       Hmm

   24. SLSonja Lyubomirsky2:50

       ... um,

2. 2:51 – 5:22

   Don’t Spend Your Life Trying to Be Loveable

   1. SLSonja Lyubomirsky2:51

      yeah.

   2. CWChris Williamson2:51

      Lots of people spend their entire lives trying to be lovable. Is that the wrong goal entirely?

   3. SLSonja Lyubomirsky2:58

      Yes. Well, there's a part of it that's, that's not a, a bad thing, which is if you want to be a better person, right? We-- working on yourself, wonderful, right? But I think the-- I, I think when you don't feel loved, to conclude that, oh, I don't feel loved, I need to make myself more lovable, like I need to sort of somehow broadcast how wonderful I am, or maybe I need to get richer or more famous or more beautiful so people would love me more, that's the part that's a myth, and it does not actually get you to feel more loved.

   4. CWChris Williamson3:29

      Is it a supply of love problem or an acceptance of love problem?

   5. SLSonja Lyubomirsky3:35

      Hmm. I think it's an ac- or a not necessarily acceptance, but s- it's not a supply of love problem. So many of us are loved, but we still don't feel loved. So why is that? Maybe somehow we don't trust it. We don't see it. Um, you know, it's not somehow getting in, you know?

   6. CWChris Williamson3:50

      Yeah.

   7. SLSonja Lyubomirsky3:50

      I think of it as like a cup of love. You know, this cup of love-

   8. CWChris Williamson3:53

      Hmm

   9. SLSonja Lyubomirsky3:53

      ... and you're pouring love. You're showing love to me, but maybe it has a leak in the bottom, and the love is sort of leaking out. Or maybe it has a lid, it doesn't have much of a place to get in. That's one way that that happens. Um, um, but okay, so the idea is that when we think, when we think we're not loved, we think, oh, I need to be, m-make myself more lovable.

   10. CWChris Williamson4:14

       Hmm.

   11. SLSonja Lyubomirsky4:15

       And so I sort of show you how wonderful I am, and what does that accomplish? It might lead you to admire me, right? I might impress you.

   12. CWChris Williamson4:23

       Hmm.

   13. SLSonja Lyubomirsky4:23

       And it happens all the time. Like, here I am sitting here talking to you, Chris, and I want you to think that I'm smart and interesting and funny and kind. And I might succeed in impressing you, and I might succeed at you admiring me, but it's not going to forge a connection.

   14. CWChris Williamson4:37

       Hmm.

   15. SLSonja Lyubomirsky4:38

       So that's not the answer to, to real connection.

   16. CWChris Williamson4:41

       What's the difference?

   17. SLSonja Lyubomirsky4:42

       So I think admiration is like, it's like an influencer who has a lot of followers, and they might be admired, but the followers don't really know them. And w- my co-author of the, of my book, How to Feel Loved, Harry Reis and I, believe that really the key to feeling loved is being known. Because if you don't really know me, if I, if I'm just broadcasting my, my positive qualities, hiding my weaknesses, you don't really know who I am on the inside, what really matters to me. And if you don't really know me, I can't truly ever feel loved, because I'll always wonder, if he knew me, maybe he wouldn't love me.

   18. CWChris Williamson5:18

       Hmm.

   19. SLSonja Lyubomirsky5:19

       Right?

   20. CWChris Williamson5:19

       Mm-hmm.

   21. SLSonja Lyubomirsky5:20

       So-

   22. CWChris Williamson5:20

       That fear of being seen.

   23. SLSonja Lyubomirsky5:21

       Yeah.

3. 5:22 – 6:36

   What It Really Means to Feel Loved

   1. CWChris Williamson5:22

      What-- Just definitionally, what does it mean to feel loved?

   2. SLSonja Lyubomirsky5:26

      Hmm. Feeling loved means that I believe I make a difference in your life and that I really matter in your life. It really comes down to that. I mean, love, of course, is about affection and care and intertwined goals, but I think it really comes down to, like, I matter to you and you matter to me. And it's much broader, by the way, than, of course, romantic love. And while we talk about feeling love, we, we're talking about feeling loved at work, by your neighbors, by your family, by your friends. So it's not just, uh, about your partner.

   3. CWChris Williamson5:55

      Hmm. Forty percent of people say they don't feel as loved as they want to be by their partner, and nearly two-thirds of young men feel that nobody truly knows them.

   4. SLSonja Lyubomirsky6:04

      Isn't that terrible? Yeah. It's, it's really a... It's sad. It's a problem. I actually think those numbers are probably understatements. I bet people, you know, are-

   5. CWChris Williamson6:13

      Feel embarrassed about admitting it

   6. SLSonja Lyubomirsky6:14

      ... Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So yeah, we did a survey expressly for the book, right? Found there was at 70% said they don't feel as loved as they want to be in at least one significant relationship in their life. So that's 70%. Um, and why is that? I think many of them have love, they have connection, they have friends, and somehow, yeah, they're not, they're not feel... It's not getting in. It's not getting internalized.

4. 6:36 – 9:39

   The Biggest Ways Push Love Away

   1. CWChris Williamson6:36

      What are the big ways structurally, tactically, literally, what are the big ways that people don't accept love?

   2. SLSonja Lyubomirsky6:43

      Hmm. Well, I was talking about the cup of love. I think if you're anxiously attached or avoidantly attached, I think that's a huge barrier somehow. Again, if you're anxious, it's like you're watching for signs of rejection, signs that the person doesn't love you. If you're avoidant, maybe you're not even noticing those signs of love. Um, I mean, it could even be... It's funny, we... The idea of the love languages, we actually debunk [laughs] the idea of the love languages in the book. We have a whole section on it. We didn't do it, someone else did it.

   3. CWChris Williamson7:10

      Hmm.

   4. SLSonja Lyubomirsky7:11

      Um, but there's, there's a truth to it. I mean, it's a good heuristic that if someho- Like, I actually was dating someone who kept sending me gifts, like in the mail with, like, little handwritten notes. It was actually really cute, and yet didn't do the things that I actually really wanted him to do, which is really, like, saying something to me or, you know. My love, quote, "love ling- love languages" are, are words of affirmation and physical touch, which were-

   5. CWChris Williamson7:32

      Well, hang on a second.

   6. SLSonja Lyubomirsky7:33

      Uh.

   7. CWChris Williamson7:33

      Have you debunked it?

   8. SLSonja Lyubomirsky7:34

      Uh-

   9. CWChris Williamson7:34

      Or are you, like, uh, subject to it?

   10. SLSonja Lyubomirsky7:37

       What, what we've debunked is that there's not just five languages, there's, there's many, and that it... What we've debunked is... Not we. Uh, other people have debunked the idea that matching in your love language, uh, predicts, like, how good or how strong or how stable your relationship is. It does not predict it. It turns out everyone cares about two love languages: words of affirmation and quality time.

   11. CWChris Williamson7:59

       Hmm.

   12. SLSonja Lyubomirsky7:59

       It also turns out that the more love languages your partner shows love to you, the better. So it's not about the matching. That's the matching idea that really we've debunked, but I think it's a great heuristic, so I like to talk about it.

   13. CWChris Williamson8:10

       Hmm.

   14. SLSonja Lyubomirsky8:10

       So I'll bring it as... It is funny, like, I'm, like, bringing it in, and yet I've debunked it. [laughs] A little, uh-

   15. CWChris Williamson8:14

       Pick a direction.

   16. SLSonja Lyubomirsky8:15

       I know, exactly.

   17. CWChris Williamson8:16

       Yeah.

   18. SLSonja Lyubomirsky8:16

       But, um, but yeah. Anyway, the, this example, I was dating someone who was sending me gifts, and that was his love language. Um, and I just wasn't reading it.

   19. CWChris Williamson8:26

       Hmm.

   20. SLSonja Lyubomirsky8:26

       Like, I wasn't seeing that. Like, I wasn't seeing that that's an expression of love. So that does happen sometimes when the... You're just not... Yeah, you're not taking it in, whatever the person is doing. Their love language is different from yours.

   21. CWChris Williamson8:36

       Okay.

   22. SLSonja Lyubomirsky8:37

       [laughs]

   23. CWChris Williamson8:38

       What else? What are some of the other ways that people are rejecting love, not accepting it?

   24. SLSonja Lyubomirsky8:42

       Yeah. If you don't love yourself very much, uh, it's hard to see signs of other people's love as genuine. Now, everything, everything we talk about is really much more nuanced than, like, a simple explanation. So for example, a lot of people think if you don't love yourself, you can't really love other people. I think that's a, that's a myth, and I s- I think Esther Perel actually was a f- was pr- was someone I, I heard talking about that. She said no, you learn to love yourself also in the context of relationships. It's a bidirectional kind of thing. Um, having said that, if you really don't love yourself, if you low self-esteem, you're not gonna believe other people's expressions of love. You're not gonna be aware of them. You're not gonna see it as genuine. Furthermore, if you don't love yourself, you literally are gonna be, quote, "less lovable", right? People, people... It leaks out, right, that your, your self-image is, is poor, and o- you're not gonna be as likely to receive love. So, um, so I think that's another barrier. Yeah.

5. 9:39 – 13:43

   Do Self-Esteem Interventions Exist?

   1. CWChris Williamson9:39

      What have you learned about building self-esteem and self-love?

   2. SLSonja Lyubomirsky9:42

      Hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson9:42

      'Cause it sounds here like, hey, we're on the receive-

   4. SLSonja Lyubomirsky9:45

      Yeah

   5. CWChris Williamson9:45

      ... but in the context of self-esteem and self-love, we are both the recipient and the giver.

   6. SLSonja Lyubomirsky9:50

      Yeah. Uh, I would say nothing. [laughs] Um, that is the one thing I don't know. I'm an interventionist. I'm an experimental social psychologist. I don't know of any good interventions to increase people's self-esteem.

   7. CWChris Williamson10:01

      No way.

   8. SLSonja Lyubomirsky10:03

      Well, interventions in the lab, you know-

   9. CWChris Williamson10:04

      Mm-hmm

   10. SLSonja Lyubomirsky10:04

       ... that have been actually, like, evidence-based. I mean, of course I can ar-

   11. CWChris Williamson10:07

       Well, we can do anything off vibes, right?

   12. SLSonja Lyubomirsky10:09

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson10:09

       I can come up with something that sounds good. That's the reason we need you. We need you-

   14. SLSonja Lyubomirsky10:13

       Exactly

   15. CWChris Williamson10:13

       ... to test whether or not my vibe coding of a-

   16. SLSonja Lyubomirsky10:15

       Yeah

   17. CWChris Williamson10:15

       ... an intervention is actually good or not.

   18. SLSonja Lyubomirsky10:16

       But remember, evidence of... or absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, right? So just because there aren't interventions doesn't mean that they wouldn't work. I mean, I could, I could speculate, you know, like, based on years of experience and, you know, expertise that, you know, like for example, just, um, pursuing goals, passions that, that are important to you, you know, and having successes in, in those things and practicing your social skills. Like, that's gonna build your self-esteem.

   19. CWChris Williamson10:41

       Mm-hmm.

   20. SLSonja Lyubomirsky10:41

       I just don't know any... Maybe they're out there, but I don't know any successful interventions that have, that have actually boosted people's self-esteem.

   21. CWChris Williamson10:49

       That's interesting.

   22. SLSonja Lyubomirsky10:49

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson10:49

       I wonder whether... And this is complete... In fact, I'm gonna take this off, and I'm gonna put this one on for the time being.

   24. SLSonja Lyubomirsky10:55

       [laughs] Love it.

   25. CWChris Williamson10:55

       Um, this is the bro scientist hat.

   26. SLSonja Lyubomirsky10:57

       Love it. Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson10:59

       I wonder if part of self-esteem is kind of like an aggregate, a lagging measure aggregate for how your local ecosystem socially and emotionally seems to be feeding back to you in a positive way, that self-esteem can be built up on your own, but you need to be very deluded if you were able to hold self-esteem when the world was giving you no evidence that you should hold onto it, right? Because that would be incredibly maladaptive. You, you are, as a social creature, you're actively ignoring signals that you should pay attention to. If everybody else in the tribe is going, "Sonja, you, you can't behave like that. You can't keep behaving like that. We're not giving you positive reinforcement. We're not giving you love. We're not giving you belonging. You're not mattering. We're not listening. We don't care because you're being an asshole. You're being an asshole, and that's maladaptive to the group as, as, as a whole," presumably the opposite of that would be, "This is good. Keep going. More of that. This is helping us. You are a good person. You are contributing. We care about you," and over time, that would help to build up. Now, people can have self-esteem that is self-generated, but a- again, you need to have Nerves of steel or basically no, no I's and D's if you're going to ignore the, the feedback from everybody else.

   28. SLSonja Lyubomirsky12:18

       Yeah. All right. So-

   29. CWChris Williamson12:18

       That's my bro scientist theory

   30. SLSonja Lyubomirsky12:19

       ... no, no, that is actually, and I'm not just flattering you, that is actually a brilliant idea, and you've just reproduced some [laughs] ... You've changed hats. You've just independently developed some really solid theories in psychology about, about how self-esteem is kind of a measure, like a, like a metric, a meter of what's happening-
6. 13:43 – 16:20

   Is Romantic Love the Most Important Type of Love?

   1. CWChris Williamson13:44

      Is the person that you're dating the most important relationship for providing this sense of love?

   2. SLSonja Lyubomirsky13:51

      Well, interesting, in, in Western society, most people have romantic relationships, and actually a far majority end up getting married at some point. I think something like 85% by age 56. Um, I would say for a lot of, a lot of people would report that that is their most important relationship. I personally think that friends are what makes life worth living. Um, that's more of my kind of personal theory, that you get m- more of it from friends. But it's also a very gender-based theory. So it turns out that men-

   3. CWChris Williamson14:20

      Mm. Mm-hmm

   4. SLSonja Lyubomirsky14:21

      ... derive more happiness from romantic relationships than women. You probably know this.

   5. CWChris Williamson14:24

      Yeah, that's why men suffer more through divorce-

   6. SLSonja Lyubomirsky14:27

      Exactly

   7. CWChris Williamson14:27

      ... because so much of their social belonging was tied up in the other person-

   8. SLSonja Lyubomirsky14:30

      Exactly, put the one true-

   9. CWChris Williamson14:30

      ... whereas women had distributed it.

   10. SLSonja Lyubomirsky14:32

       They put all their eggs in one basket, whereas women have, you know, very close, uh, friendships-

   11. CWChris Williamson14:36

       Yeah

   12. SLSonja Lyubomirsky14:36

       ... uh, social, social support networks. Um, but again, I think friends are what makes life worth living, and, um, yeah, so really maintain those friendships.

   13. CWChris Williamson14:45

       Did you read, uh, Friends by Robin Dunbar?

   14. SLSonja Lyubomirsky14:48

       No, but I know about it, yeah, yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson14:50

       G- g-

   16. SLSonja Lyubomirsky14:50

       Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm, yeah

   17. CWChris Williamson14:50

       ... interesting idea. He, he talks about, um, you know, the concentric circles of, of friendship, and I think he talks about you have room in your life-ish for about five, five very close friends, but that a partner takes up two of those slots. And I thought that was really interesting to think about, you know, you're, you're, um, uh, distributing this around, but what's the, the, the most common answer to the question how many close friends do you have to call on in an emergency is zero. It's not the, the median, but it's the most common answer. More people have no friends to call on in an emergency than any other number. And, uh, I wonder whether people who aren't in a relationship don't realize, hey, you need two additional close friends to compensate for your singleness, and that might help to fill in some of the gaps. Now, yeah, there's, there is a category of love and intimacy obviously that can't be replicated by friendships that is available in an intimate partnership, right? Obviously.

   18. SLSonja Lyubomirsky15:45

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson15:45

       But more isolation means that maybe people are placing even more pressure on romantic relationships to fulfill all of these different needs, and when they're not in a romantic relationship, they're not supplementing that with more friends.

   20. SLSonja Lyubomirsky16:00

       I mean, I love that idea, the two, two for one. Um, but our, and, but we also have the, the false belief that our partner needs to fulfill all of our needs.

   21. CWChris Williamson16:09

       Mm.

   22. SLSonja Lyubomirsky16:09

       So like Eli Finkel's book, The All-or-Nothing Marriage, right? That... And so we know this to be true, and yet we still think that, right? That they... Yeah, so one person needs to fulfill, you know, sexual, spiritual,

7. 16:20 – 18:10

   The Words More Powerful Than ‘I Love You’

   1. SLSonja Lyubomirsky16:20

      emotional, intellectual needs, and that almost never happens. And so, which is why-

   2. CWChris Williamson16:25

      Mm

   3. SLSonja Lyubomirsky16:25

      ... uh, delegating those to, to friends and family is great idea. [laughs]

   4. CWChris Williamson16:29

      Are there more important words to hear than I love you?

   5. SLSonja Lyubomirsky16:33

      Yes. So on Valentine's Day, right, almost all the cards say I love you, right? Almost all of them. I would say 99%. And so we had the idea that they should say, uh, maybe it's more important or as important to say, "I feel loved by you. You make me feel loved."

   6. CWChris Williamson16:48

      Mm.

   7. SLSonja Lyubomirsky16:49

      Which is really more about what they're doing, the gift that they're giving you. 'Cause again, like, that's what mat- you could be loved. If you're, if you are loved, but you don't feel loved, it's, like, almost doesn't matter. Like, it's like you could be beautiful, but you don't feel beautiful. You could be smart and you don't feel smart, then, you know, that's a problem.

   8. CWChris Williamson17:06

      You might not believe me, but this is what peak sleep optimization looks like. I'm not talking about the nightgown. That's just for sex appeal. I'm talking about my Eight Sleep. The Eight Sleep Pod 5 comes with a smart cover you throw on your mattress that actively cools or heats each side of the bed up to 20 degrees, and now they've added the world's first temperature-regulating duvet and pillowcase. So you've got 360-degree coverage for deep, uninterrupted rest. It's like being Walt Disney without the cryogenic chamber and the racism. Best of all, their autopilot feature learns your sleep patterns and makes adjustments to improve your sleep in real time. It even detects when you're snoring and lifts your head a few inches to help you breathe better. That's why Eight Sleep has been clinically proven to add up to one hour of quality sleep per night. They have a 30-day sleep trial, so you can buy it and sleep on it for 29 nights. If you don't like it, they will give you your money back, plus they ship internationally. Right now, you can get up to $350 off the Pod 5 by going to the link in the description below or heading to eightsleep.com/modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom at checkout. That's E-I-G-H-T sleep.com/modernwisdom and modernwisdom at

8. 18:10 – 19:24

   Why Receiving Love Is a Skill

   1. CWChris Williamson18:10

      checkout. Is there a skill to accepting love, do you think? Is that something that can be developed over time? You know, uh, to use a more flippant example Everyone's got that friend that when you pay them a genuine compliment, they dismiss it. This is kind of like the British approach to receiving a compliment. "Oh, d-d, you know, you, you must be ni- you, you, um, you look really good today." "Well, if you had nothing else to do with your life other than get ready for a party, you too would look great." And you go, "Hey, dude-

   2. SLSonja Lyubomirsky18:36

      [laughs]

   3. CWChris Williamson18:38

      ... I've just worked really hard to try and give you something. Uh, that's an opportunity for you to feel good and for me to feel good for making you feel good, and now neither of us feel good, so congratulations." But yeah, uh, it makes me think about that, but at a much deeper level, right? The skill of accepting love.

   4. SLSonja Lyubomirsky18:53

      Right. And absolutely true. And actually, your example is great because I've noticed that as my friends and I get older, we are better at receiving compliments or just sort of receiving, receiving generosity.

   5. CWChris Williamson19:04

      Mm.

   6. SLSonja Lyubomirsky19:04

      It's like, it's just the practice. We practice and practice and practice. Um, and I see that, like, there's more of a focus on kind of self-development, um, you know, at least in certain circles, and people are really working on themselves, and, uh, yeah, I see that everywhere. So yeah, I, I think almost everything can get better with practice, even when it feels really unnatural at first.

9. 19:24 – 24:35

   The Importance of a Sharing Mindset

   1. CWChris Williamson19:24

      Mm.

   2. SLSonja Lyubomirsky19:25

      Right?

   3. CWChris Williamson19:25

      Why is having a sharing mindset so important?

   4. SLSonja Lyubomirsky19:28

      Mm. We were talking about how the key to feeling loved is to be known, right? So if you don't know me, I'll never really feel loved by you. 'Cause, right, 'cause I'll always wonder, "Would he love me if he knew me? How do I get to... How do you get to know me?"

   5. CWChris Williamson19:40

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SLSonja Lyubomirsky19:40

      I need to share more of myself. It doesn't have to be, you know, trauma sharing or oversharing. It has to be done at the right pace. And also, I need to really have some emotional intelligence, like read the room. So I might like... So I need to share more of myself, right? Not just the highlight reel, but more of myself. But again, not like to spill all my, you know, weaknesses. So but, but I would want to test the room, right? So when you ask me, "How are you?" You know, most of the time I say, "Fine." Uh, maybe I might start with, "Oh, I had... You know, I was sort of struggling today with something. You know, I had a rough morning." And then I look at your reaction and see like, are you really interested to hear about my rough morning? And that's kind of the toe in the water, and then you can share more and more. So I just want to, like, make sure that people understand that it's not just like oversharing-

   7. CWChris Williamson20:24

      Mm-hmm

   8. SLSonja Lyubomirsky20:24

      ... I'm talking about.

   9. CWChris Williamson20:24

      Mm-hmm.

   10. SLSonja Lyubomirsky20:25

       But it's showing, like, who are you... Who do you believe to be on the inside? Like, showing more of that. You know, what matters to me. It doesn't have to be something negative. It could just be like my opinion about that movie that maybe everyone likes, but I don't like it. [laughs]

   11. CWChris Williamson20:41

       Mm.

   12. SLSonja Lyubomirsky20:41

       Um, you know, showing something genuine about me, um, you know, that, yeah, that shows you who I am.

   13. CWChris Williamson20:48

       It's an interesting bi-directional relationship here too, right? It... I, I think about the UK as well. Um, there is a good culture of mocking in the UK, especially as you're a kid growing up. There's a, a piss-taking banter back and forth. One of the interesting things there is if you try to put a slightly orthogonal opinion forward, I'm gonna say something that's a little bit different to what most people expect. Typically, that's not met with, "Oh, that's really interesting. Now, that's, that's... I've never thought about stuff like that before. That's really cool. I'm really glad that you brought that up." It's, "Why would you say that? That's so strange." And I think if you think about that in the context of a relationship, the fact that this is going back and forth between two people means that the less it is encouraged and received, wow, that thing that you said that was evidently surprising to me, that might have taken a little bit of effort for you to say, that wasn't received and encouraged in the way that might make you want to continue to do it more. That means that you do it less and are less encouraged to do it, which means that I know you less, which means that I don't get the opportunity to do it, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da.

   14. SLSonja Lyubomirsky21:55

       So it's a vicious cycle. And actually, someone was just telling me like they had one time they were vulnerable, and they really got punished for it. They got judged for it. It was used against them, and it was one out of 100 times, and yet they now don't want to reveal anything ever about themselves. Um, and we kind of overgeneralize from that.

   15. CWChris Williamson22:12

       It's a formative experience. Like, I mean, how many times... I see this online a lot, and I'm aware people use the most extreme examples when they talk on the internet. But how many times do you see some story online about a person who really tried to open up to a partner, to a, to a parent, to a close friend, to a, a, a confidant, and it was such a painful experience for them that, like, that is their formative experience of what opening up, of what asking to be loved, of what asking to be known feels like? And, um, yeah, that's, that's ruthless. There's a, um... Uh, Rob Henderson, my friend, told me this idea where he said, "If you, if you get rejected by one girl but you've gone up to 100, even if you get rejected by 100, getting rejected by one is just another drop in the bucket. But if you've ev- only ever gone up to one girl and you get rejected that one time, it's the biggest event in your entire life." And the same thing goes for, hey, maybe this is an example for if you're gonna open up to somebody, make sure that the first one has got a high hit rate of at least not being an asshole to you.

   16. SLSonja Lyubomirsky23:14

       Yeah, exactly. Exact- But bad is stronger than good, so we remember those bad events. It also suggests that maybe, uh, parenting, uh, something that parents should emphasize is like to, to model kind of sharing, sharing and listening. And I should say that, you know, we really can't talk about sharing without talking about how the person responds, as you say.

   17. CWChris Williamson23:31

       Mm-hmm.

   18. SLSonja Lyubomirsky23:31

       And so actually feeling loved, for me, I would argue, starts with curiosity, right? So it starts with really you being curious about me and asking deep questions. And then I know I can share. I feel safe. I feel inspired to share. So I'm not just sharing out of the blue, and I'm, I have to guess whether you care or not or whether it's gonna be uncomfortable or whether you're gonna judge me or use it against me.

   19. CWChris Williamson23:52

       Mm.

   20. SLSonja Lyubomirsky23:52

       So it really starts with curiosity. Um, and genuine curiosity is so rare. Really, when you think about it, how often do people really, really care about what, what goes on in your inner life and like, you know, ask you a lot of questions?

   21. CWChris Williamson24:05

       Mm-hmm.

   22. SLSonja Lyubomirsky24:06

       Um, anyway, so that, that's, that's where really I'm coming from, is that someone asks another person a que- a question that you're genuinely are interested in, in getting an answer to, and then you share in response.

   23. CWChris Williamson24:15

       Mm-hmm.

   24. SLSonja Lyubomirsky24:15

       You don't just kind of, you know, share out of the blue.

   25. CWChris Williamson24:18

       Okay.

   26. SLSonja Lyubomirsky24:18

       Mm.

   27. CWChris Williamson24:18

       So sharing mindset.

   28. SLSonja Lyubomirsky24:19

       Yeah. Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson24:19

       Stepping into an interaction- With the understanding I'm going to put more of myself across than I might naturally, uh, tend to, and that's gonna happen. It's gonna unfold over time. I'm not gonna trauma dump immediately. Uh, and

10. 24:35 – 30:09

    Are Vulnerable People More Likeable?

    1. CWChris Williamson24:35

       what, what else just on the sharing mindset? Are there any other sort of, uh, pitfalls that people need to be aware of?

    2. SLSonja Lyubomirsky24:40

       Yeah, yeah. So, like, go slow. Um, well, the vulnerability paradox, which we're kind of hitting on without naming it. So vulnerability paradox is that we think being vulnerable will lead other people to like us less.

    3. CWChris Williamson24:50

       Mm.

    4. SLSonja Lyubomirsky24:51

       On average, people like us more.

    5. CWChris Williamson24:53

       That's interesting.

    6. SLSonja Lyubomirsky24:54

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson24:54

       Why do you think that's the case?

    8. SLSonja Lyubomirsky24:56

       So, so we think, yeah, we're, we're so focused on the bad. Like, I reveal some kind of, I don't know, like, bad habit I have. And the oth- and other people... And we-- I think it's so terrible. People will judge me, and I'm embarrassed, and other people just think it's human. Or maybe they have the same habit. Um, actually, something happened to me a few weeks ago, where I really, I totally bombed giving a talk. Like, I, I al- I usually never do, but I just completely blanked out, and I was just standing there on stage, and I'm like, "I don't know what comes next." I literally said, "I don't know what, what to say."

    9. CWChris Williamson25:26

       Hmm.

    10. SLSonja Lyubomirsky25:27

        And, uh, it was mortifying. And I can't tell you how many people came up to me later and were like, "Sonja, like, I, I, I loved it. Like, it just made you more human." You know, they-- So the thing that I thought was mortifying, other people thought was, like, a cute human failure.

    11. CWChris Williamson25:41

        Mm-hmm.

    12. SLSonja Lyubomirsky25:42

        I mean, that's, that's, that was an un- volunteered.

    13. CWChris Williamson25:44

        Are you familiar, are you familiar with the pratfall effect? Do you know this?

    14. SLSonja Lyubomirsky25:46

        Yes.

    15. CWChris Williamson25:47

        So it's when somebody gets all of the answers right in a test, but they drop their pencils on the way up to hand their paper in. And it's a, a British study, the word prat. I don't know whether the word prat has come over to America. Anyway, um, we, we like people who show their human side, uh, which is, which is strange, right? Because there's an assumption that we just want everybody to be as perfect as possible.

    16. SLSonja Lyubomirsky26:08

        There's a great line from a famous screenwriter who said, "If you wanna write a character that no one connects with, make them perfect."

    17. CWChris Williamson26:16

        Hmm.

    18. SLSonja Lyubomirsky26:17

        Right? So we actually don't want perfection, 'cause it's not human, it's not interesting, it's not complex.

    19. CWChris Williamson26:21

        Hmm. I want to show you a video. Jared, can you pull up that video of that gymnastics girl? So there's this-- There's a... Look at this.

    20. SLSonja Lyubomirsky26:29

        Okay.

    21. CWChris Williamson26:29

        Just wa-watch, watch this video.

    22. SLSonja Lyubomirsky26:30

        Okay, okay, okay.

    23. SPSpeaker26:31

        [upbeat music] Wait. Daddy, I'm scared. [crying] I'm not brave. [crying]

    24. SPSpeaker26:50

        Hey. Hey. Hey. You are brave.

    25. SPSpeaker26:57

        I'm not brave. Daddy, stop saying I'm brave.

    26. SPSpeaker27:01

        You are brave. You do things that no one else has ever done. You are doing skills that are insane to even adults. Okay? You have more courage in your little body than 1,000 people have in all of their bodies combined. You are mine, and I am yours.

    27. SPSpeaker27:21

        Wow.

    28. SPSpeaker27:22

        Nothing you can do will ever make me stop loving you. Nothing you will do will ever cause me to give up on you. I'm going to let you know when I think you're making a bad choice.

    29. SPSpeaker27:35

        Okay.

    30. SPSpeaker27:35

        I am not going to let you talk down on yourself. I'm not going to let you give up on yourself, and I'm not gonna let you quit because something might be scary. You can quit if you truly don't love something. Okay? But you cannot quit because something might scare you. Okay? You are not failing me. And if I have made you feel like you are not good enough or that I don't care about you, then I have not done my job as a father. I love you very much. Okay? And I don't think that you're bad. I don't ever want you to think that I wouldn't be there and do whatever it takes to make sure that you can be successful doing whatever you want to do. 'Cause at the end of the day, this is something you have told me you want to do. Now, if you truly do not love cheer, guess what? You don't have to do cheer. If you truly love doing cheer, then yes, I'm going to let you know when I think you are making a silly decision because you don't think you're good enough or because you think something is too hard or too scary. The only limits that you have are the limits that you put on yourself. If you keep telling yourself you are incapable of doing something, guess what? You will prevent yourself from doing something. If you tell yourself that you can achieve something, even if it doesn't happen right away, guess what you will eventually end up doing? Achieving it. But we have to be able to be strong here, okay, to make this do what we are capable of doing. It starts with this. Okay?
11. 30:09 – 32:54

    Why Validation Changes Everything

    1. CWChris Williamson30:10

       Is that important, do you think, when receiving love and trying to give it as well?

    2. SLSonja Lyubomirsky30:12

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's so interesting. So one thing we talk about, right, let's, let's say you're sharing more of yourself because you want to feel more loved, and so you are sharing more of yourself, and then I'm listening. So listening is so critical. Most of us are not very good listeners. And so what we do when we're trying to listen, turns out one s- study showed twenty-five percent of the time when we're listening, our mind is wandering. [laughs]

    3. CWChris Williamson30:32

       Hmm.

    4. SLSonja Lyubomirsky30:33

       And I bet it's higher than that. 'Cause we have this inner chatter- We're, like, distracted or we're mostly we're rehearsing what we want to say next, right? How I'm going to respond to you. And, and, and we also wanna sort of fix or give advice, which I do all the time. Instead of just simply sh- making the person feel heard, which is what we're just talking about, and just validated, right?

    5. CWChris Williamson30:54

       Mm.

    6. SLSonja Lyubomirsky30:54

       Which is like, "Wow, that must have been really hard," or, "That must have been really inspiring. You know, how did that feel?" And again, that sounds like therapy talk, but you can put in your own words. Um, I do think the pendulum has swung a little too far on, like, validating over fixing. [laughs] You know that-

    7. CWChris Williamson31:10

       Mm

    8. SLSonja Lyubomirsky31:10

       ... nail in the head video that's so popular? The woman who has this nail in the head. Oh, you gotta watch this. [laughs]

    9. CWChris Williamson31:15

       Okay.

    10. SLSonja Lyubomirsky31:16

        So she has a nail in the head, and she's like, "Oh, I feel... I'm in such pain, and all my th- all my sweaters are th- are shredding." And the guy's like, "Well, you have this nail in your head." And, and she's like... And basically the point of the video is she just wants to be heard.

    11. CWChris Williamson31:28

        Mm.

    12. SLSonja Lyubomirsky31:29

        And then once he says, "I'm so sorry, it must be so painful for you to have a nail in your head," and then she's like, "Ah." Right? And that's the point of the video. Whereas he keeps trying to give her advice. "Can you... You should take the nail out of your head."

    13. CWChris Williamson31:41

        Mm.

    14. SLSonja Lyubomirsky31:41

        "And then you won't feel so, so much in pain, and you won't shred your sweaters." And I just think, like, uh, yeah, it's like the, again, the pendulum has swung so far. Like, 'cause sometimes people kind of need, like, fucking need advice, right? It- they need to be told, "Take the nail out of the head." But I, I agree that at first you want to validate and then give advice later. [laughs]

    15. CWChris Williamson31:59

        Most people don't realize how much being dehydrated impacts their performance, which is why for the last five years I've started pretty much every morning with LMNT. LMNT is a tasty electrolyte drink mix with everything that you need and nothing that you don't. This orange salt in a cold glass of water is like a sweet, salty, orangey nectar, and I really tell the difference when I take it versus when I don't. It plays a critical role in reducing muscle cramps and fatigue, helps to optimize brain health, and regulates your appetite while also curbing cravings. Best of all, they have a no questions asked refund policy with an unlimited duration, so you can buy it and try it for as long as you want, and if you don't like it for any reason, they'll just give you your money back. Plus, they offer free shipping in the US. Right now, you can get a free sample pack of LMNT's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom. That's drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom.

12. 32:54 – 36:59

    Is Therapy Speak Helping or Hurting?

    1. CWChris Williamson32:54

       I understand what you mean about therapy speak maybe going mainstream to an extent where validation's given when it shouldn't be. A, a lot of people do need some tough love. I don't know whether good therapy speak has been widespread yet though. I get the sense that in a lot of these conversations it's still quite performative. It's people saying the thing that they've heard is kind of cool. "Well, it's really important, like, to just follow your body and to just do what feels good for you," as opposed to, "I'm gonna sit in the muck with you. I'm gonna sit in the discomfort." You know? Yeah, the validation thing, good point. I'm sure Anthony will take it on board.

    2. SLSonja Lyubomirsky33:34

       [laughs]

    3. CWChris Williamson33:34

       Um, but he's sitting, he's sitting in the emotion with his daughter, right? He's holding that space. It- it's unfortunate that holding space has kind of been memeified into-

    4. SLSonja Lyubomirsky33:44

       I hate that phrase.

    5. CWChris Williamson33:46

       Yeah, but it's... The, what it, it, what it means is so good.

    6. SLSonja Lyubomirsky33:48

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson33:48

       It's just a shame that the phrase has become a cliché of itself-

    8. SLSonja Lyubomirsky33:51

       I know

    9. CWChris Williamson33:51

       ... in a way.

    10. SLSonja Lyubomirsky33:52

        I know.

    11. CWChris Williamson33:52

        Um, but-

    12. SLSonja Lyubomirsky33:54

        Hm. Uh, well, there's, there's one kind of therapy speak that I think is, is so amazing and effective, and it's non-violent communication, right? It's using I statements, right? So, so I feel hurt when you do this as opposed to why do you always do this, you know? What's wrong with you?

    13. CWChris Williamson34:08

        Mm.

    14. SLSonja Lyubomirsky34:08

        And so, um, and that, yeah, I... It's, that is just so effective. Has been shown to be effective in so many contexts. And people are doing it more. Again, instead of accusing the other person, it's about you. So, like, it's not like you're doing this. It's like I feel this way when, when I see this, or it's my understanding, or the story I'm telling myself is that you're... Um, and then you, and then you ask, and then you have a request. Um, so, um, I'm a big believer in, in non-violent communication. [laughs]

    15. CWChris Williamson34:34

        And the TLDR of that is I statements, not you statements.

    16. SLSonja Lyubomirsky34:39

        Yeah. There's a whole process to it, but it's sort of I feel this when you... You know, so let's say, yeah, like let's say the person never cleaning up. You know, I feel, you know, I, I don't... Overburdened when you don't wash the dishes when you do this. Um, you know, I'd like to whatever, talk about it. I'd like to understand what's going on. Maybe you're, you're really stressed out at work.

    17. CWChris Williamson35:00

        Mm.

    18. SLSonja Lyubomirsky35:00

        Um, you know, s- and then you have a re- and the hard part is the request. It's like what are you actually... It's easier to criticize. It's harder to kinda ask. The ask is the hard part, you know?

    19. CWChris Williamson35:08

        Why?

    20. SLSonja Lyubomirsky35:09

        I would... It's, it's vulnerable, um, to sort of ask. To say I, I... Yeah, it's hard to ask. That's so funny. It's almost obvious to me why. Maybe it's not so obvious. I would love for us to come up with an agreement about how you split, how we split chores.

    21. CWChris Williamson35:25

        Mm-hmm.

    22. SLSonja Lyubomirsky35:26

        Um, so yeah, I statements.

    23. CWChris Williamson35:30

        Yeah. Uh, I guess criticizing somebody else puts the ball in their court. It also makes your displeasure known and, uh, like, uh, absconds you of having to take responsibility. But putting yourself forward and going, "I would really like it if you did that," is another opportunity for this person to hurt you, right? It's like I'm gonna request this thing. Not only have you done this thing that pissed me off that I've now had to tell you about. I've had to tell you that it's hurt me, but I'm now going to, like, offer you this thing-

    24. SLSonja Lyubomirsky36:03

        Yeah

    25. CWChris Williamson36:03

        ... that you could reject this request.

    26. SLSonja Lyubomirsky36:06

        That's why it's, that's why it's vulnerable because you're risking rejection.

    27. CWChris Williamson36:10

        Mm.

    28. SLSonja Lyubomirsky36:11

        And that's life. Sometimes you'll be rejected.

    29. CWChris Williamson36:14

        What's your advice to people who when they get to the precipice of vulnerability of exposing a little bit more of themselves and they feel like they should, that, that sort of fear comes up and the tightness in the chest and the ringing in the ears. What is your advice to them in that moment?

    30. SLSonja Lyubomirsky36:31

        Mm. I mean, part of my advice is just to go for it. Take the leap. So many th- Great things in life involve taking risks. Almost everything, right? Like having a baby, you know, going for that job that, you know, moving to a different city. Um, but before they, they take that leap, I would go slow, right? So maybe the first time just you, yeah, um, reveal something smaller and then take a, yeah, take a s- baby steps, I would say.

13. 36:59 – 40:03

    We Need to Ask Deeper Questions

    1. CWChris Williamson36:59

       Mm-hmm. Okay.

    2. SLSonja Lyubomirsky36:59

       Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson37:00

       So listening to learn.

    4. SLSonja Lyubomirsky37:01

       Yeah.

    5. CWChris Williamson37:02

       People are not just playing the game of tennis, waiting to hit the ball back.

    6. SLSonja Lyubomirsky37:06

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson37:06

       Uh, genuine curiosity. What else?

    8. SLSonja Lyubomirsky37:10

       We talked about sharing, so curiosity, listening. So, so you start with curiosity, like, "I'm really interested in you." And curiosity, by the way, has a enthusiasm component, right? Like, "I'm really-- I'm excited to hear what you have to say." That's why it's such a gift, right? Like, how often does that happen when someone's so excited? Charismatic people are really good at this, right? That's why we flock to them, because they're so excited to hear what you have to say. So it starts with curiosity, then you tell... So, "I'm curious about you," then you start sharing, which is hard. And, but I'm, I'm validating and I'm supporting your sharing by, like, really listening and asking questions. So question asking is not talked about or even studied that much. So important. We don't ask each other enough questions. So research shows that we think that, especially asking deep questions, if I ask you a deep question, I'll think, "Oh, uh, he's gonna think I'm prying, that I'm being a little nosy."

    9. CWChris Williamson37:58

       Hmm.

    10. SLSonja Lyubomirsky37:59

        And sometimes that happens, but on average, people crave to be seen, right? They want to be known.

    11. CWChris Williamson38:06

        Hmm.

    12. SLSonja Lyubomirsky38:07

        Um, I have an example from my daughter who has a roommate who was having a lot of problems, and her, her family was coming over. They were crying. There were all these sort of sessions, and they were speaking Spanish, so she didn't know-- my daughter didn't know what they were saying. So I said to my daughter, "Why don't you talk to your roommate and ask her what's going on?" And she said, "Oh mom, I, I c- I couldn't do that. She'll think I'm prying."

    13. CWChris Williamson38:28

        Hmm.

    14. SLSonja Lyubomirsky38:29

        And I think, you know, she could be right, but I think mo- most likely she's wrong, that this roommate probably would feel really supported and loved if she, uh, if she was asked about it.

    15. CWChris Williamson38:39

        Hmm.

    16. SLSonja Lyubomirsky38:40

        So. But we usually think... Yeah, so we don't ask enough questions. So ask your friends, colleagues, and partners those deep questions.

    17. CWChris Williamson38:48

        Okay. And that's radical curiosity?

    18. SLSonja Lyubomirsky38:50

        That's part of radical curiosity and part of listening, because it's-- listening is a back and forth. And then we-- there's two more mindsets we talk about. One is called open heart, and it's almost like an obvious one. You know, I, I think open heart is basically warmth, kindness, believing in the other person, wanting their, them to be happy, wanting their dreams to come true. It's, it's... I say it's obvious because I would think most stable relationships have that mindset.

    19. CWChris Williamson39:14

        Hmm.

    20. SLSonja Lyubomirsky39:15

        It's the other mindsets that often peop- people don't necessarily have. So I actually-- we sent the book to a few early readers [chuckles] and, um, two of my male friends said they-- they're like, "We love the book," but they broke up with their girlfriends after reading the book.

    21. CWChris Williamson39:30

        Hmm.

    22. SLSonja Lyubomirsky39:30

        And it turn-- And we were-- I was really surprised because I thought it was prescriptive, like, "Oh, do this. Listen better. You know, show curiosity." But they actually used it to hold a mirror to their relationships. So they had the open heart. They had kindness and warmth and belief in the other person. But one person said, "She's not really sharing, and I'm not really sharing." Another person said, "My girlfriend is no longer curious about my work. She never asks about it." Um, and so those are really important and, and need to be worked on. The open heart, I think, is one that I would hope most relationships already have.

    23. CWChris Williamson40:02

        Okay.

    24. SLSonja Lyubomirsky40:02

        Yeah.

14. 40:03 – 44:07

    Why Multiplicity Can Be So Hard

    1. SLSonja Lyubomirsky40:03

       And the-- but the last one is my favorite. [chuckles] The last mindset is called multiplicity. So the term multiplicity, I'm told, comes from trauma research. The idea, if you have a trauma, it doesn't define you. It's like you're a quilt of many, many things. Of course, you had the trauma. You can't take it away, but it doesn't define you. And we're all, we're all multi-- You know, the Walt Whitman quote, you know, "I am multitudes. I contain multitudes." Um, so I'm like a quilt of both positive and negative qualities and traits and behaviors, right? So sometimes I'm kind, and other times I'm selfish. Sometimes I'm loyal, and sometimes I'm narcissistic. And we're all like that, right? And so use that multiplicity lens to turn it on the other person. So when you're revealing your story and something-- you say something I might disapprove of, makes me uncomfortable, I use a multiplicity lens and see you as a human in all of your complexity. And what's interesting about that is that when I tell this to people, everyone nods, and they're like, "Oh yeah, of course." [chuckles] You know? And then when you actually give specific examples, it's really hard, right? People will say, "Oh, what a jerk," right? "What a, what an asshole. Like, he did that," or, "She did that." Um, so that's a, a really hard one.

    2. CWChris Williamson41:15

       Yeah, I, um, I think it's difficult for m-- So few people want to sit in a discomfort zone, a, a, a tough emotion, and their solution is to just fix it. To just say, "Hey, if I just come up with the solution to this thing, we don't need to worry about it anymore."

    3. SLSonja Lyubomirsky41:30

       Mm-hmm. What would be the solution to, uh, so someone reveals something negative about them?

    4. CWChris Williamson41:36

       About themselves? I don't want you to feel that way anymore. Allow me to minimize it. Allow me to, uh, tell you what you can do. Like, um, "This person at work keeps mistreating me in this way, and every time that they do, it makes me feel really small, and I'm worried that they don't like me, and I think that I don't really belong there anymore." Well, she's a bitch anyway, and you shouldn't do this. And you're like, "Hey, dude, you're not, you're not in this with me. What I want to hear from you is, damn, that must be, that must be really hard to go through. What, what's that been like over the last couple of months?" Or, "What are you, what are you worried this means?" Or, "What's the emotion just after that happens?" Like, oh, okay, like I'm-- someone cares. Someone cares enough to do that. And, uh, yeah, I, I just think people's-- It comes from two, two directions. It comes from, "I don't want this person who I care about to suffer anymore," and also, "I don't want to be in this discomfort anymore." And both of those things together can be wrapped up in a I'll just fix it, minimize it, or make it go away.

    5. SLSonja Lyubomirsky42:48

       Um, uh, I had a coach once, and some, a friend did something that I was really upset about. And so I'm talking to the coach, and I'm doing that. I'm minimizing. I'm thinking, "Oh, well, because of this and this reason, they must have done it." And the coach said, "Sonja, just stop it right now." And he said, "Skip right over the rumination and the justification and the rationalization and right into sadness. Go right st- go straight to sadness."

    6. CWChris Williamson43:13

       Hmm.

    7. SLSonja Lyubomirsky43:13

       Which is just be sad that your friend did this, right? Which is kind of like what you're saying, sort of sit in it, and then you can, you know, rationalize. But, but the rationalization, like, you know, there's a fine line between kind of condoning, justifying, and compassion.

    8. CWChris Williamson43:26

       Hmm.

    9. SLSonja Lyubomirsky43:27

       Right? When is it compassion where you see someone and they do something kind of terrible, and you can see... Like, this happened once with my friends where this guy said something really terrible in a text, and we're like, "Oh, what a jerk." And one of my friends said, "You know, when I read that text, I see the little boy inside of him," or, "I see the teenage boy-

    10. CWChris Williamson43:47

        Hmm

    11. SLSonja Lyubomirsky43:47

        ... who used to be rejected by girls, and so whatever. He got triggered." It's not excusing or condoning or justifying, but it's having compassion. Uh, and, and I don't know, it really helps me to see people in this sort of more complex light. Again, it doesn't mean I want to hang out with him, but I, again, I think that compassion, um, is really helpful.

15. 44:07 – 48:51

    The Strongest Predictors of Relationship Success

    1. CWChris Williamson44:07

       What do you think are the things in a relationship that makes people feel unloved the most?

    2. SLSonja Lyubomirsky44:14

       I think when people kind of feel a little... Like, I guess when they start to feel invisible, and the other person stops noticing, well, stops asking questions. We already, we talked about that. Stops being curious about you. We often stop being curious about the people we've known the longest, right?

    3. CWChris Williamson44:29

       Hmm.

    4. SLSonja Lyubomirsky44:29

       'Cause we think, "Oh, I know everything about them." And of course you don't, 'cause every day we're having new fears and dreams and self-doubts, right, and regrets. Um, so stopping being curious. But the other thing is, yeah, just kind of feeling, yeah, like the, that you're invisible. They don't, they're not noticing the little things. You know, when we ask people what makes them feel loved, a lot of them were those little things like, like I remember being at a party, and friends would bring me like a piece of fruit or water or a blanket. And before I even knew I wanted those things, they're like, "Sonja, you, you need this water. You need a blanket 'cause you seem cold." And I'm like, "Oh, I didn't even know I needed a blanket." And so, like, when pe- when you feel loved is when people... You, you feel love when people are doing... They're noticing you, and they're noticing things that you need before you even w- need, before you even realize you need them.

    5. CWChris Williamson45:15

       Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

    6. SLSonja Lyubomirsky45:15

       So those little things when... And when your partner or your best friend sort of stops noticing those things, you, you don't feel loved.

    7. CWChris Williamson45:22

       Have you looked at the whatever the strongest predictors are of long-term relationship satisfaction?

    8. SLSonja Lyubomirsky45:28

       Hmm. So I partnered with a love scientist [laughs] to write this book 'cause I'm really more of a happiness scientist. I don't think I can answer this question. But I will tell you a really interesting finding that we do talk about, which is how do you respond to good versus bad news in a relationship, right? You come home, and you say, "Hey, honey, um, uh, I got laid off." Uh, or you know, "Something bad happened. My car, the car broke down." And everyone kind of knows how to respond to bad news or sort of something bad that happened. Um, but what if you come home and you say, "Hi, honey, I got a new job offer in New York."

    9. CWChris Williamson45:59

       Hmm.

    10. SLSonja Lyubomirsky45:59

        Right? So it turns out how we respond to good news is a better predictor of relationship duration than how do, how we respond to bad news 'cause it's so... It's not easy, right? You got a job offer in New York. I mean, it could be threatening. Does that mean we have to move? Does that mean you're going to work harder so you don't have time to, you know, with the kids? Maybe you might even be envious that like, "My career isn't going as well as yours." And so what research shows is the, the best... You know, well, the, the, the reaction that is predictive of relationship duration is truly celebrating good news with your partner, right?

    11. CWChris Williamson46:34

        Hmm.

    12. SLSonja Lyubomirsky46:34

        Being like, "That's so ama-," being enthusiastic, right? "That's so amazing. Tell me what happened. How did..." You know, "What did they say?" You know, "How did you feel?" Um, maybe later you can deal with some of the insecurities that come out of that, right?

    13. CWChris Williamson46:45

        Hmm.

    14. SLSonja Lyubomirsky46:45

        But so, so anyway, that is one factor that predicts relationship strength is, is celebrating. It's called capitalizing. Celebrating good things.

    15. CWChris Williamson46:54

        This episode is brought to you by Whoop. According to my Whoop, I've tracked nearly 2,000 days of my life, and the thing that still gets me is that I could have predicted almost every bad day before it happens. That's because Whoop gives you a complete picture of your health every single day. Your sleep, your workouts, your recovery, your breathing, your heart rate, even your steps. And over time you get to see what's working and what isn't. And the Whoop 5.0 is the best version yet. It's 7% smaller. You get more than two weeks of battery life from a single charge. It's got healthspan tracking to see how your daily habits affect your pace of aging. It's even got hormonal insights for the women that are listening. I'm a huge fan. This thing rules. It's been a huge part of my health journey, and it's why it's the only wearable that I've ever stuck with. And best of all, you can join for free. Pay nothing for the brand-new Whoop 5.0 strap, and you get your first month for free, and there's a 30-day money-back guarantee. So you can buy it for free, try it for free. If you don't like it after 29 days, they just give you your money back. Right now you can get the brand-new Whoop 5.0 and that 30-day free trial by going to the link in the description below or heading to join.whoop.com/modernwisdom. That's join.whoop.com/modernwisdom. It's interesting how, how much easier it is to sort of care for somebody who's struggling than it is to celebrate somebody who's winning in many ways.

    16. SLSonja Lyubomirsky48:13

        Yeah. And you know what? How many people... The list of people that you share your wins with is a small list.

    17. CWChris Williamson48:22

        Mm-hmm.

    18. SLSonja Lyubomirsky48:22

        Is that right? Right?

    19. CWChris Williamson48:23

        Mm-hmm.

    20. SLSonja Lyubomirsky48:23

        'Cause we, we learn not to be boastful, right? And I remember like I would come home and tell my family about some ma- some great thing that happened, maybe an award I got, and my kids would say, "Oh, Mom, you're boasting." And I'm like, "If I can't share this with my family, like who can I share with?"

    21. CWChris Williamson48:36

        Yeah. What the fuck is going on? Yeah.

    22. SLSonja Lyubomirsky48:37

        And so we're, we've sort of trained like not to boast, and yet of course, like, we want to celebrate those things, right? So and so, um, yeah, and so we, we don't have as much practice both sharing and I guess reacting-

    23. CWChris Williamson48:49

        Mm-hmm

    24. SLSonja Lyubomirsky48:50

        ... to, to those wins.

16. 48:51 – 55:24

    Should Everything Be Reciprocal?

    1. CWChris Williamson48:52

       What about in the relationship if you're doing everything right and the other person just doesn't Show it in return?

    2. SLSonja Lyubomirsky48:59

       Great question. And I get asked that question a lot where let's say I'm doing all the right things, so I'm, I'm sharing, I'm listening, I'm curious, I'm seeing you in the multi- multiplicity lens. I'm, I'm exci- with... I'm, I'm listening with warmth and acceptance, and the other person just does not respond. They don't return. They don't reciprocate. They're not curious about you. They're not listening. They're not sharing.

    3. CWChris Williamson49:18

       Yeah.

    4. SLSonja Lyubomirsky49:19

       What do you do? So I'm not a therapist. I mean, therapists are very like, you know, they'll never sort of say exactly directly what they really think, I think, right?

    5. CWChris Williamson49:26

       Yeah.

    6. SLSonja Lyubomirsky49:27

       Bluntly, and I'll just say bluntly, maybe you need to walk away. Maybe you've made a poor choice.

    7. CWChris Williamson49:32

       Mm-hmm.

    8. SLSonja Lyubomirsky49:32

       If it's a family member, yeah, probably you can't walk away, but just accept that you're not gonna feel as loved as you want to feel by this person.

    9. CWChris Williamson49:39

       Mm-hmm.

    10. SLSonja Lyubomirsky49:40

        Um, I mean, of course, obviously keep trying, but if you've kept trying and, and it's not working...

    11. CWChris Williamson49:45

        Well, so much of it, I think the discontent that people feel in situations like this is I, I feel an incompatibility here, and I'm continuing to push up against it, and you know how when you see a bridge and a bridge twists like this, it's because one side is going in one direction and another isn't moving with it. If you just did that, it's just a bridge that's rotating, right? But the tension occurs in the flexing like this, and I wonder how many people, if you were to just say, "Hey, dude, this just isn't working," and you're continuing to try and put this square peg into a round hole is where the discomfort comes from. And if it's you got an uncle that you just cannot resonate with or a younger brother who just you and him are com- like different species. So okay, guess what? Thanksgiving and Christmas you're gonna see each other. You wish him happy birthday. You keep on top of it. But the tension and the pain is coming from you wanting a thing which is not accessible, and I don't think it's your job in life to drown trying to keep people afloat who refuse to swim.

    12. SLSonja Lyubomirsky50:48

        Exactly. Although, you know, you, you try curiosity by the way with the brother or the uncle, right? Like why, why do you believe that thing that, you know, you think it's worth anything?

    13. CWChris Williamson50:55

        Shut up, Sonja. I don't, I don't need to hear that.

    14. SLSonja Lyubomirsky50:57

        Right. [laughs] Well, if that's... Right. If that, if that's the response consistently, and I, I'm, I completely agree with you, but it is... there's just this tension because I hear all this advice like, you know, people in our society, in our individualistic society, they, they kind of break up too often. You know, they kind of end relationships too often.

    15. CWChris Williamson51:13

        Totally.

    16. SLSonja Lyubomirsky51:13

        Like especially on dating apps or, you know, you're like, "Oh, this person isn't working for me. I'm just gonna go to the next person."

    17. CWChris Williamson51:19

        Mm-hmm.

    18. SLSonja Lyubomirsky51:19

        So there's sort of this advice you hear that maybe we don't work hard enough, um, to sort of fix our differences and then there's all those people, and I'm thinking romantic relationships, and they're together forever, and they're just clearly not right for each other.

    19. CWChris Williamson51:32

        Yeah.

    20. SLSonja Lyubomirsky51:32

        And they're clearly unhappy, and I feel, I really feel for them, right? Like life is too short. Um, so I don't know. I don't know what's... But I guess both can be true at the same time.

    21. CWChris Williamson51:42

        Well, it is absolutely-

    22. SLSonja Lyubomirsky51:42

        Yeah

    23. CWChris Williamson51:42

        ... that both can be true. I've got this idea called advice hyperresponders. So, uh, advice doesn't distribute evenly. It distributes more like alcohol than medicine. Uh, the people who could really benefit from loosening up and having a drink remain abstinent while the people that are already drinking too much, they take it on board. So for instance, the person who has the fear, "I am emotionally inadequate," will absorb the message, "You should open up about your emotions wholesale," because it confirms their fear that they already weren't good at doing emotions and that will cause them not to rectify the, uh, imbalance but to over-exaggerate something that already exists. Um, another one of the person who permanently feels like they're not working hard enough will take on the David Goggins, Jocko Willink message of, "Just get up at 4:30 AM. You've got to crush it, dude," as opposed to going, "I actually need to listen to the advice that tells people to chill out a little bit more." Meanwhile, the, the place I first saw this was after Me Too. So Me Too told guys, "Don't be pushy with women," and the dudes that were blowing through boundaries didn't pay any attention to it. Meanwhile, nervous guys that could do with a little bit more of a, a, a pushing hand-

    24. SLSonja Lyubomirsky52:51

        Went all the way to the other way

    25. CWChris Williamson52:51

        ... they decide. They were like, "I knew I was too much already. I already thought I had this."

    26. SLSonja Lyubomirsky52:54

        So interesting.

    27. CWChris Williamson52:55

        And this is how-

    28. SLSonja Lyubomirsky52:56

        Mm-hmm

    29. CWChris Williamson52:57

        ... advice lands in groups that already are moving in that direction. It confirms-

    30. SLSonja Lyubomirsky53:02

        Wait, what are you calling this?
17. 55:24 – 58:34

    The Habits That Make You Feel Loved

    1. CWChris Williamson55:24

       one. Okay. So-

    2. SLSonja Lyubomirsky55:25

       Yeah

    3. CWChris Williamson55:25

       ... tactically, what are the most powerful habits for implementing this?

    4. SLSonja Lyubomirsky55:30

       The more I think about feeling loved and, and these mindsets, the more I think they apply to almost everything. You know, like when you study something, you see it everywhere.

    5. CWChris Williamson55:39

       Mm.

    6. SLSonja Lyubomirsky55:39

       Um, but seriously, like, it applies to, um, uh, reducing polarization in our society, right? When you're curious and really listening to people who are on the other side of the political spectrum, it... Actually, l- see, research has shown it's reduced... it reduces prejudice. It reduces differences. And so I think out of all... everything I've talked about, I think curiosity and listening are probably the two habits that can really change your life. Like, if we all became better listeners, more curious... Research shows that if you're a leader or a manager or a supervisor, and if you're curious and really listening to your employees or your followers, they're gonna be more productive, they're gonna be more engaged, they're gonna be less likely to quit.

    7. CWChris Williamson56:17

       Mm-hmm.

    8. SLSonja Lyubomirsky56:18

       Pretty amazing, right? Uh, it's not that hard to implement. Um, and then sharing, sharing too, there's a study that came out, uh, maybe a year ago that had people who are literally, like, wearing different hats on the political spec- spectrum, no pun intended, um, sharing. And so I might share about, like, I'm struggling with my son, and the guy in the other hat is sharing, "Oh, you know, I'm also struggling with my son."

    9. CWChris Williamson56:41

       Mm.

    10. SLSonja Lyubomirsky56:41

        That reduced prejudice and reduced polarization, just sharing more of your humanity with someone who's really different from you.

    11. CWChris Williamson56:47

        Mm-hmm.

    12. SLSonja Lyubomirsky56:48

        Um, so but yeah, but I will, I will... I would stick with those three and... but especially curiosity and listening.

    13. CWChris Williamson56:54

        Okay. What's something, if you were to say this technique or this habit, this one thing that you could do tomorrow-

    14. SLSonja Lyubomirsky57:03

        Yeah

    15. CWChris Williamson57:03

        ... that would improve your ability to feel love, what would it be?

    16. SLSonja Lyubomirsky57:07

        Well, first of all, have a conversation with the person that you want to feel loved by. Um, and actually, this is my number one kind of happiness tip. If you wanna be happier tomorrow, have a, a f- a 15-minute conversation with someone, uh, at least 15 minutes. And then when you're having the conversation, share, listen, show curiosity, listen with acceptance and warmth. When you think about relationships, they're really a series of conversations. Even when you're not talking, right, you're communicating. That's how I think about relationships. They're a series of conversations, and so when you think about, "I wanna feel more loved," it seems very overwhelming. Like, "What do I do? I need to make myself more lovable. I need to change your mind and, and get you to love me more." But really, all you have to do is change the next conversation or change the next series of conversations.

    17. CWChris Williamson57:52

        Mm.

    18. SLSonja Lyubomirsky57:52

        So that would be my number one tip is show up differently in your next conversation with that person by sharing more, listening more, showing curiosity with warmth and acceptance.

    19. CWChris Williamson58:03

        So you're saying that-

    20. SLSonja Lyubomirsky58:03

        Yeah

    21. CWChris Williamson58:03

        ... life is just one big podcast. That's your main... That's the main takeaway.

    22. SLSonja Lyubomirsky58:06

        Yes, absolutely. But also, I'm kind of biased 'cause I'm a talker. So my, my oldest daughter once said to me, "Mom, you talk so much I can't think." So I do like to talk, but, but... And also in our culture, we're, we're... Actually, there's some research on this. You know, individualist cultures are more talking cultures. Uh, collectivist cultures like Asian cultures are more listening cultures.

    23. CWChris Williamson58:26

        Mm.

    24. SLSonja Lyubomirsky58:27

        Um, but you know, it, it... We can adapt these mindsets. You know, you don't have to talk a mile a minute. You know, it's just, it's just communication that matters.

18. 58:34 – 1:01:17

    The Most Fascinating Study Sonja Has Conducted

    1. SLSonja Lyubomirsky58:34

       Yeah.

    2. CWChris Williamson58:35

       Across all of the studies that you've been a part of, what's your favorite one? Like, what's the, what's the most fun or interesting or novel study that you've done?

    3. SLSonja Lyubomirsky58:44

       I think my favorite one is that we asked people to act more extroverted for a week. So we said to both introverts and extroverts, we said, "For the next week, act more extroverted." We didn't actually use the word extroverted because it has connotations in our culture.

    4. CWChris Williamson58:57

       Mm.

    5. SLSonja Lyubomirsky58:57

       I think we said, you know, sociable, energetic, uh, talkative. And then for the week after, we asked people to act more introverted, again, using different words like deliberate and quiet, um, and vice versa.

    6. CWChris Williamson59:11

       Mm.

    7. SLSonja Lyubomirsky59:12

       And we were shocked at what we found. So we found the biggest effects we'd ever found in any of our interventions. People in the week that people acted more extroverted, they were so much happier, and sort of everything i- improved.

    8. CWChris Williamson59:23

       Wow.

    9. SLSonja Lyubomirsky59:24

       In, during the introversion week, surprisingly, sometimes people actually got less happy or kind of no change. And the second surprise was that this effect was the same for introverts and extroverts.

    10. CWChris Williamson59:35

        So even people who were already extroverted, increasing their extroversion improved their happiness?

    11. SLSonja Lyubomirsky59:40

        But well, it's interesting that you, you thought that was the surprising part. No, no, no, this... The introversion is the surprising part, I think, to me.

    12. CWChris Williamson59:46

        Mm-hmm.

    13. SLSonja Lyubomirsky59:47

        That the introverts... You know, Susan Cain wrote this great book, right, called Quiet. Love the book, and I'm a big fan of introversion. I think there's a lot of benefits to being introverted, but she c- she writes that, you know, y- introverts get exhausted by trying to act social.

    14. CWChris Williamson1:00:00

        Mm.

    15. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:00:01

        I don't nece- I actually don't quite believe it. Like, the evidence is now showing that it's actually the extroverts that get exhausted by social behavior. It makes sense because they're social much more of the time.

    16. CWChris Williamson1:00:09

        Okay.

    17. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:00:09

        Um, yeah, so, so the introverts also got happier acting extroverted.

    18. CWChris Williamson1:00:14

        Most people have no idea where their testosterone levels sit. But what if I told you there was a solution, something that identifies low T faster than a high school bully, and it won't cost you all your lunch money? That's where Function comes in. Gives you access to over 160 lab tests, including a deep dive into your full hormone panel. Every result is reviewed by clinicians. Anything out of range is flagged, and you get clear explanations with a personalized protocol with actionable next steps. So if something's off, you know exactly what to do about it. Whether you just need to go to the gym more or you need to play Creed louder in your car, Function will tell you exactly where your testosterone and everything else stands. Normally, this level of testing would usually cost thousands, but with Function, it's $365 a year. That's $1 a day to stop guessing with your health and start knowing. And right now, you can get $25 off, bringing it down to 340 bucks. So get the exact same blood panels that I do and save $25 by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom using the code modernwisdom

19. 1:01:17 – 1:05:23

    Is This the Best Definition For Introvert and Extrovert?

    1. CWChris Williamson1:01:17

       at checkout. What do you make of the Where you get your energy from on your own versus with other people is the best definition of introversion versus extroversion. Does this still hold true or has this been replication crisis?

    2. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:01:28

       Well, that's the thing. So I love the definition, again, that Susan Cain made popular.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:01:32

       It's a sexy definition, but it, if it's inaccurate, then we need a new one.

    4. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:01:35

       I believe that the evidence is not really holding up. And actually Nick Epley who wrote a book called A Little More Social, great book, um, talks about this. I think that the evidence is not quite there. Um, so I don't know, maybe again, absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. Um, but the studies, I think there's only with o- with one exception, studies are showing that introverts that are asked to act more social do not feel depleted or exhausted. Um, but again, maybe we need more research.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:02:02

       That's interesting. It wouldn't surprise me. I think a lot of the time what introverts are doing is finding a home base or fi- finding a situation that feels comfortable and familiar to them. But you can get de-trained out of your social muscle an awful lot. Like if you don't lose it, use it, you lose it. And if you don't get into the rhythm of seeing fri- for instance, we have every Friday, and this is one of the best, this is one of the be- two best things that, three best things actually, that, uh, from a habit perspective that I've done. First one is sleeping with my phone outside of my bedroom. Second one is when I think about a friend that I haven't spoken to in a while, I just text them immediately and I'm like, "Hey man, just thinking of you. Hope everything's good," or whatever. Uh, but the third one, we've got a standing dinner reservation at 6:00 PM every Friday, and it's just an open invite for between six and eight people. And no matter how good or bad your week's been, you always turn up and if you're in town, you're there. Sometimes people bring new friends, sometimes people it's just you and it's been me and one other guy. And, um, the fact, the fact that you've got that, it means re- some people have got more introverted days and more extroverted days. On my most introverted day, I'm still at dinner and I leave and I'm like, "That was fine. That was worth it."

    6. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:03:19

       I love it. I love it. I love it. Um, very important point that you just raised, right? So, so when in our, in these studies, when we asked in, when we ask introverts to be extroverted, we don't ask them to go to a party and be the life of the party. They can choose how to be extroverted, right?

    7. CWChris Williamson1:03:35

       Mm.

    8. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:03:35

       So an introvert is gonna do different things. So they might call up a friend, they might chat a little bit more during lunch. You know, I was super shy when I was young and when I was, when I was in college-

    9. CWChris Williamson1:03:44

       I can't imagine that

    10. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:03:46

        ... [laughs] I... And I really was. I, my parents told me that before age 10 I did not speak to other adults other than teachers and, and family members. And then I really kind of pushed through it. But okay, here's one, one re- one way I did it in college, you know, we had sections and I forced myself to say one thing in each section and it was terrifying. Like I, it was really, really hard. But then the more you do it, you know. So anyway, that's the kind of thing that introvert might say. Like, at lunch I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to say one more thing.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:04:14

        Mm.

    12. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:04:14

        Uh, but I, I love your three habits. I'm gonna add one more to it that one of my friends introduced me, is when you meet someone or you're talking to someone, they say, "Oh, let's get together." You know, this happens all the time. And what happens is you don't get together. You know, you start, you text and then, you know, you get busy and then you're like, "Oh, how about next week?" And that doesn't work out. He said, "You do not leave that interaction without making a firm plan to get together."

    13. CWChris Williamson1:04:38

        Mm-hmm.

    14. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:04:38

        You know, a specific time and place and date and that, that really works.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:04:43

        I heard a really Machiavellian way to work out if someone actually wants to hang out with you. Uh, if you propose a date and they cancel and you say, "Tell me when you want to reschedule for," and they don't reschedule, it was basically reverse engineering whether or not this person is genuinely busy or just doesn't like you. Uh, I don't know whether, I think you'd probably need, you're reading into that a little bit much. People are just busy. But, uh, I thought, I thought that was an interesting one.

    16. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:05:05

        But I like that, tell me when you wanna reschedule for.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:05:07

        Yeah.

    18. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:05:07

        Yeah.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:05:08

        Yeah. Just tell me when. Like, hey, especially if you recancel- if you cancel dude.

    20. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:05:11

        Yeah.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:05:11

        Like it's on you. Okay?

    22. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:05:12

        Yeah.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:05:12

        You fucked it. I was gonna go.

    24. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:05:14

        Yeah.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:05:14

        Um.

    26. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:05:15

        You know, there's a New Yorker cartoon and it's like, "How about never? Is never good for you?" [laughs]

    27. CWChris Williamson1:05:19

        Yeah. It's... But that's what someone says if they don't come up with a-

    28. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:05:22

        Exactly

    29. CWChris Williamson1:05:22

        ... a date or a

20. 1:05:23 – 1:08:56

    The Biggest Misconception About Happiness

    1. CWChris Williamson1:05:23

       time.

    2. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:05:23

       Exactly. Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:05:23

       What's something about happiness that almost everyone believes but is wrong?

    4. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:05:27

       Hmm. Well, the one that's kind of boring is that people think, well, okay, it's, maybe it's not boring. I, I have a book about this called The Myths of Happiness. Um, I'll be happy when. I'll be happy when I have a baby. I'll be happy when I move to New York. I'll be happy when I get that tech job I wanted to get. I'll be happy when whatever. Um, and the truth is you are happy when those things happen, but then what happens is, it's called hedonic adaptation. We adapt to that new goal.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:05:55

       Mm-hmm.

    6. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:05:55

       And this is by the way, humans probably would never progress if we didn't have adaptation because then we'd, we would just kind of sit on the mountain and do nothing. But we always want more. And, uh, and you bring your same self with you when you, to the new relationship or to the new city or to the new job. And so sort of putting all your eggs in changing your life circumstances to be happier.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:06:16

       Mm.

    8. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:06:16

       Now there's a caveat. If you live in a war zone, if you're poor, if you're in an abusive relationship, absolutely changing your circumstances is gonna make you happier.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:06:24

       Mm-hmm.

    10. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:06:24

        But if you're kind of normal, like, you know, m- uh, comfortable circumstances, then changing them is gonna make you happy temporarily.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:06:33

        Is there a way to hack hedonic adaptation?

    12. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:06:36

        Yes. Uh, through variety, novelty, surprise and gratitude.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:06:41

        Okay.

    14. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:06:41

        Right? So we adapt to constant stimuli, right? So when things are the same, like you buy a car, a new car, at first you're like, "I love this new car." And then, you know, the, for the eighth time you sit in the car, you don't notice the car anymore, that it's new. And so novelty, variety sort of maybe, um, yeah, so you have novel, create novel circumstances. So actually a relationship is a better example. We don't wanna adapt to our new spouse. So you do different things with them. I mean, it, it seems obvious, right? You do exciting activities with them. You learn new things with them. You see new friends. I mean, people are endlessly fascinating and dynamic, right? So they're not constant.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:07:14

        Mm-hmm.

    16. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:07:15

        Um, and then surprise. Open yourself up to surprises, right? So if you go to a lot of, I don't know, social events, there's gonna be things that are surprising, right? If you take risks, there'll be things that are surprising. I should say surprise in a positive, not a negative way. And then finally, gratitude is the antidote to hedonic adaptation. 'Cause when you think about it, when you adapt to something, you start taking things for granted. And when you're grateful, it's like you don't take it for granted anymore, right? So like if I'm grateful for my health, I'm not taking my health for granted.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:07:45

        Hmm.

    18. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:07:45

        So truly expressing gratitude, but it's not easy, right? Like, I mean, how often can you sort of express gratitude for your car-

    19. CWChris Williamson1:07:51

        Mm-hmm

    20. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:07:51

        ... or even for your spouse?

    21. CWChris Williamson1:07:52

        Mm-hmm.

    22. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:07:53

        Um, but I, I'm a big-

    23. CWChris Williamson1:07:54

        Especially given that the, uh, stimuli is the same.

    24. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:07:57

        Yeah.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:07:58

        So you're expressing gratitude for something you've experienced previously.

    26. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:08:00

        Exactly. You know, uh, something we don't adapt to, uh, is a view. A view, like a beautiful view from your home.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:08:08

        That's interesting.

    28. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:08:09

        Is that interesting? So actually, I have a beautiful view. Uh, I did it and I got it for a reason. Like, I think it's worth paying for the view. No one really knows why. I think one reason is novelty and variety. Well, variety, right? It's always changing-

    29. CWChris Williamson1:08:23

        Hmm

    30. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:08:23

        ... with the weather-
21. 1:08:56 – 1:11:19

    What Should We Prioritise to Be Happy?

    1. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:08:56

       Yeah.

    2. CWChris Williamson1:08:56

       Okay.

    3. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:08:56

       Yeah.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:08:57

       Let's say that you met a, a 20-year-old today. What would you tell them to prioritize if they wanted the highest probability of being happy when they were 50?

    5. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:09:05

       Hmm. Relationships. Relationships. Um, relationships, but, but it's really everything we were talking about today. Like really put effort into maintaining relationships. Learn social skills. I wish we could take classes in college and high school, right? Everyone can learn some social skills, how to have a conversation.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:09:27

       Hmm.

    7. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:09:27

       So have conversations. Um, spend time with people. Don't spend time alone, you know, in the garage on a screen, right? Because it's not going to give you practice with those social skills. So relationships in person ideally, face-to-face, like you said, like those dinners. Uh, make a habit of it. Learn to listen, be curious and share. Um, yeah. Those would be my top, my top habits.

    8. CWChris Williamson1:09:52

       Okay. Well, I, uh, speaking of which-

    9. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:09:54

       Well... Oh my gosh

    10. CWChris Williamson1:09:56

        ... I have something for you.

    11. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:09:56

        Yeah. Thank you. Can I open it?

    12. CWChris Williamson1:09:58

        Yeah, you can.

    13. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:09:58

        Yeah. It's a card that... It's a card with my name on it. Okay. It's a thank you card. Okay. Thank you. I love Arthur, by the way. That's like-

    14. CWChris Williamson1:10:17

        He's the man

    15. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:10:18

        ... mentioned Arthur Brooks. Uh, we were in a almost plane crash together. I have a fun story about that.

    16. CWChris Williamson1:10:23

        Wow.

    17. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:10:23

        We were in a plane and it was going to crash, and I was hold... I was sitting next to him. I started holding his hand. [laughs] Um, and he's very confident, so it turns out it's very good to be... If you want to be in a plane crash, to be sitting-

    18. CWChris Williamson1:10:33

        Arth- Arthur's about as Christian as you can come, so he was probably hoping it crashed.

    19. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:10:36

        Well, ha ha. No, no, no. He was just... He is very... It's, it's very useful to be, yeah, sitting next to a very confident, very masculine-

    20. CWChris Williamson1:10:44

        Yeah

    21. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:10:44

        ... Christian person.

    22. CWChris Williamson1:10:45

        Yeah.

    23. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:10:46

        You know, I'm, I w- I'm literally holding his hand, and he's like, "Sonja, it's going to be okay."

    24. CWChris Williamson1:10:50

        Hmm.

    25. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:10:51

        "Everything's going to be okay." And then later on he's like, "Sonja, I didn't realize..." Because we had lost... An engine actually fell out of the plane. Um-

    26. CWChris Williamson1:10:58

        What?

    27. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:10:58

        It was in India.

    28. CWChris Williamson1:10:59

        Where the fuck were you flying?

    29. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:11:00

        I know. We were in India-

    30. CWChris Williamson1:11:01

        All right, okay
22. 1:11:19 – 1:11:53

    Where to Find Sonja

    1. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:11:19

       you.

    2. CWChris Williamson1:11:19

       Sonja Lyubomirsky, ladies and gentlemen. Where should people go to check out everything that's going on?

    3. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:11:23

       Uh, howtofeelove.com. Just the title of my book, howtofeelove.com. And we also have, by the way, we have a quiz where you can take and it shows... It will tell you, just five minutes, it will tell you which mindset is your strongest mindset and which is your weakest mindset, and I think it could be very useful. [laughs]

    4. CWChris Williamson1:11:39

       Heck yeah. Sonja-

    5. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:11:40

       Yeah

    6. CWChris Williamson1:11:40

       ... I appreciate you.

    7. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:11:40

       Thank you.

    8. CWChris Williamson1:11:41

       All right. See you next time, everyone.

    9. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:11:42

       Thank you.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:11:43

        Bye.

    11. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:11:43

        Yeah.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:11:44

        So good.

    13. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:11:44

        Oh my God. Thank you.

    14. CWChris Williamson1:11:45

        Nailed it.

    15. SLSonja Lyubomirsky1:11:45

        Thank you. Oh my God.

    16. CWChris Williamson1:11:46

        [outro music] Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, another one that I know you'll love is just here.

Episode duration: 1:11:54