Modern WisdomWhy You Feel Like Something Is Missing - Cameron Hanes
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,001 words- 0:00 – 5:05
Chris & Cam’s Last Meeting
- CWChris Williamson
I can't believe it's been two years.
- CHCameron Hanes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
I can't believe that it was-
- CHCameron Hanes
I know.
- CWChris Williamson
... two years since I was with you.
- CHCameron Hanes
I know. It's, uh, we got a good, a lot of good material out of that discussion, that time-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CHCameron Hanes
... that day. I still see clips-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, it was-
- CHCameron Hanes
... everywhere.
- CWChris Williamson
Did anything, uh, stick with you from the few days that we s- spent together?
- CHCameron Hanes
Um, (sighs) I like, you know, you've kind of repurposed some stuff, like so I, I love seeing that. But I think it's just that footage going up the mountain with the rock and you chosen, talking about chosen and unchosen suffering, that, that's gonna last forever for me. I mean, it's such a good, a good point, you know. And just that setting to have that message delivered at that time-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- CHCameron Hanes
... was just so powerful. So yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I, uh, I really appreciate how complimentary you were about me in the book. Uh-
- CHCameron Hanes
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... it feels like most of the first chapter is some bullshit that I've stolen or said-
- CHCameron Hanes
Ah.
- CWChris Williamson
... well. Well, look, I, if, if we need to take a 72-pound rock up a hill, you carrying the rock and me spouting nonsense-
- CHCameron Hanes
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... that feels like we're specializing in where our skill sets lie.
- CHCameron Hanes
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
You know what I mean?
- CHCameron Hanes
Yeah. I see.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh-
- CHCameron Hanes
Yeah. But you carried the rock. You also, what'd we do, 11 miles?
- CWChris Williamson
Too much. Too many.
- CHCameron Hanes
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
At least, at least 10 too many.
- CHCameron Hanes
Yeah.
- 5:05 – 18:13
What Drives Cam’s Relentlessness?
- CWChris Williamson
today, and we missed each other on the first book, on Endure, and then you've got Undeniable, which is the new one, which is fucking awesome, by the way.
- CHCameron Hanes
Thank you.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, I've wanted to a- I even, I wanted to ask this when we nearly spoke the first time. I'm interested in what drives you because you've done some pretty stupid, pretty extreme things to yourself across a variety of domains.
- CHCameron Hanes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, I'm just intrigued into where that sort of relentlessness comes from.
- CHCameron Hanes
Man. Uh, what... Yeah, I don't know. The, what's crazy is I don't, I don't remember ever being asked this before. So what... Um, man, I don't know. Now, now, it's like when you go through life and there probably was decision-making at some point, but now it's kind of just what I do, sort of. And, you know, I'm just gonna get up. I'm gonna get my, the, whatever work I have, I'm gonna get it in, whether that's 20 miles or-... whatever it is, shooting a bow, um, you know, not, uh, content creation, you got, that's a never-ending process. But now just the hard stuff I think you're talking about, like, the challenging and, um, the mountains, that's just what I do. Um, before it was what, before it was what I do, I don't know, I think that was where that uncertainty. It's like, "Where do I fit in this world? What, what do I..." And it's not even like, I never even asked myself, "What do I have to offer?" 'Cause I didn't think I had anything to offer. So you never even got to that, that part. But it was just like, "Is this it? Is this just going to work and trying to pay bills?" And it's like, I remember, like, even a tactic I had, I haven't even done a checkbook in a long time, but my wife's in charge of that. But, like, even just writing out checks and I would just, I was never thought, I never thought it was gonna, anything I did was gonna last. So I'd be like, if I, if I had a check for, like, $17, I'd just make, make it for $20, put it in the thing and I'm like, "Well, at the end of the day, I should have more in here." Instead of being exact, (laughs) I just wanted this cushion of like, "I just want to have a little bit more than what I think, and then I can just get through with a, a challenging time."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CHCameron Hanes
That's as far into the future as I ever thought. It's just like, "Let's round up in the checkbook."
- CWChris Williamson
Round up by three dollars.
- CHCameron Hanes
Yeah. Just so I got a little buffer.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CHCameron Hanes
In that there was no future. If that was thinking about the future-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CHCameron Hanes
... that's all I did right there.
- CWChris Williamson
I know the difficulty of trying to put yourself in the mindset of somebody before a trait became a habit or before sort of an effort became a habit.
- CHCameron Hanes
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, in my experience, I think where most people get stuck, and this is why, uh, consistency is such an unsexy topic, uh, what people are looking for, for the most part, is getting from zero to one. So I'm not, uh, a lot of the habits or a lot of the ways that I show up in life and a lot of the things that I'm doing aren't going well, please explain to me the first few steps to-
- CHCameron Hanes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... get to a place that I want to be. And that's great and pretty doable. Uh, you can go and explain to somebody (clears throat) how to, uh, effectively run a 5K. Warm up, pre-race preparation, here's some good shoes that aren't too expensive, and here's a cool down process, and... But what's really difficult to explain to somebody is how you do a 5K three times a week for five years.
- CHCameron Hanes
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, you, you kind of can't explain how to do that. Uh, the same thing with going to the gym.
- CHCameron Hanes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Mike Israetel, uh, who you should have on the show, I think he'd be a great guest, I'd fucking love to see you two together actually-
- CHCameron Hanes
(laughs) Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, he can explain how to do the perfect tricep pushdown-
- CHCameron Hanes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... with maximum muscle hypertrophy and, you know, he can, all of those things. But he can't explain how you do that with progressive overload once a week on that cycle and two other muscle groups on other cycles for a decade-
- CHCameron Hanes
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... you know, to get the physique that you want.
- CHCameron Hanes
Right.
- 18:13 – 35:46
Cam’s Reflections on Fatherhood
- CWChris Williamson
(air whooshing) Yeah, dudes, I, I, we need to have a chat about Truett. What the fuck is... What is he built of?
- CHCameron Hanes
Uh, he's, yeah, he's a machine right now. Um, you know, it's, it, it's weird 'cause I- I'd, I'd get credit from my kids, you know, and they're like, "Oh, you must've done such a good job." I didn't. I mean, I pushed those boys way too hard. I mean, I was just... I didn't know what the hell I was doing. I was young. I was in my 20s, so I didn't know how to be a dad. My dad was never around. I hated my stepdad, so I was ne- I def- knew I definitely didn't want to be like him. But I didn't know what a dad was supposed to be, and I'm like, "Well, okay, I'm just gonna prepare these kids. I know how life is. I know life will fucking kick you in the nuts, so they're gonna be ready for anything. Life is competition, they're gonna be ready to compete." So, I ha- I pushed them really hard and it was not great all the time because-
- CWChris Williamson
How so? What, what did you do?
- CHCameron Hanes
Um, you know, it was just always a battle. It's just like... (sighs) You know, it's... We're running every day. You guys got home from school, "Okay, get your stuff on, we're gonna go do Pisgah." No kid wants to go run a mountain. And I'm like, "No, this is..." 'Cause the way I thought it- thought it of, of it was, I had a terrible childhood, but it made me tough. So I'm like, "You guys have everything. You have everything I ever wanted. Your dad's around, your mom is here, she loves you. You have ev- you have every shoe you want, every basketball camp you wanna go to, you go to." I said, "So, the way this is going, you're gonna grow up to be a couple of big pussies. We're gonna make you tough." So I would just make them do hard things and, and, uh, I made... They both did half-marathons when they were seven and eight years old. Truett just put up a picture. (laughs) He looks like he's this tall. He was tiny at eight year olds, eight years old but he ran a 154 half, like this tall, which is eight-something minute miles, and, um, that, all that to say that, yeah, I, I had the kids do really hard things for many years to prepare them for what I said was life's challenges. And, uh, it made it, you know, if I was... It reminded me, did you ever see the movie Tree of Life?
- CWChris Williamson
No.
- CHCameron Hanes
So Brad, Brad Pitt's in it, and great movie, but he was a super hard dad there. When he would leave, it was like fucking playtime, right? Mom, kids, jumping on the beds, every... And then when dad, dad would come home, it would be like, "Oh, God." So I said, "This reminds me of (laughs) me when I was, when we'd go out of town and it's just playtime, come back, it's like, 'Oh shit.'" So that's not great when you're the bad guy all the time. You know, dads are usually the disciplinarian, that's whatever, but I was also like, you know, making them do these really hard things. So, they see now and they see all the success, but it, it wasn't great. And anybody from the outside in would look and say that, "What's wrong with that, that dad is pushing those kids too hard." You know, it's like e- any basketball game. I'm just like, "A loose ball? You'd better be on that floor." And I said, "I wanna see floor burns on your knees. I want you diving on. I want you playing the, harder than any kid out there." So that's a hard, that's a hard, um, thing to live up to. E- kids just wanna have fun. They wanna play.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- CHCameron Hanes
They're not looking to compete every day.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- CHCameron Hanes
But I made them compete, so it was a challenge. Now, you see what that results in, you know, and, you know, Tanner, he was a Ranger. He's fricking badass. He's probably tougher than Truett. And then Truett's, you know, doing these crazy things and getting all this attention. And yeah, I mean, it's great. I- I'm, I'm glad to see it, but, um, I didn't, I wasn't perfect raising them.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you regret it?
- CHCameron Hanes
Yeah, I regret, um... I regret, I remember when Tanner went to the army, he was a deputy back home, very proud of him. Such an important job. He, you know, a corrections officer, just worked at the jail, but still, it's, you know, a good job. It's like paid, paid the bills. I was proud of him. We need people, we need men to do that. So, um, he said he was gonna join the army, and he wanted to be a Ranger. And I'm just like, "You know, you get deployed..." And I'm thinking, "What if..." You know, he, I think it was because I would tell them that average is failing. If you look around, you see the average person. That's not us. That's not what we wanna be. So we're not... Yes, I know people need to work at gas stations and do things, whatever. That's fine, that's... But that's not what we're settled for. So he, he said he wanted to quit. He didn't wanna be a deputy anymore, he wanted to be a Ranger 'cause he had more to offer this world. And I was thinking, "Was that me who fucked up and, and said this, that being, just having a regular job was somehow failing?" And I just had so many regrets and I was just like... I told him, he's getting ready to go to basic training and I'm like, I said, "Tanner," I'm like, "There's nothing wrong with, with having a regular job, b- being a family man." And I said, "There's nothing..." I was wrong. I was wrong to say what I said, "Raise you kids." And, um, 'cause I was thinking about what if he got deployed and was killed? And it's just like, because of shit I said, trying to make my boys tough, and th- this is the result? So, yeah, I was like... Yeah. I definitely have had regrets over how, how hard I pushed them.
- CWChris Williamson
I think... it's such a delicate balance to give your kids the life that you never had and the life that you worked so hard to be able to afford them with, whilst also knowing where most of the important realizations that made you into the sort of person who could provide came about due to restriction- Mm-hmm. ... and difficulty and, and tough times and, and toil. Mm-hmm. Uh, and a little bit of, maybe a bit of resentment and a, a little bit of, uh, unfairness- Yeah. ... in childhood that galvanize you to sort of do something great with your life. Every single par- I mean, look, dude, every single parent that I know, uh, and even more be, tell you what, be fucking grateful that you had your kids in your twenties because if you'd had them now- Mm-hmm. ... imagine how much of a differential your lifestyle is, uh, materially- Mm-hmm. ... in terms of resources, in terms of, uh, status and, and, and notoriety and opportunity and all of this stuff. Yeah. You would be like floating out in space. Mm-hmm. You know, you would've, no i- the total f- frame of reference would be outta the window. Right. Um, there's not a single dad that I know who has sort of crawled out from the place that they were as a kid and made something of themselves who doesn't have that exact concern- Mm-hmm. ... about their children. I think it is one of the most common worries. Uh, Ben Francis, he's the guy that founded Gymshark. Uh, Gymshark's completely bootstrapped. He still owns 70% of it. Gymshark's worth over, it's nearly $3 billion- Mm-hmm. ... and 3 billion pound company. This guy's like worth like 2 billion pounds, like $3 billion. Mm-hmm. And he's 31. Wow. He's got twin, he's got twin boys. Mm-hmm. But he grew up like as rough as they come in Birmingham with a granddad that made him go and work in like a clay mine or so, like a Pottery Barn or something like that. Mm-hmm. And I've asked him this question, I'm like, "How do you intend on navigating this one? How do you intend on teaching your kids the lessons that you learned from a very working class grandfather, their great-grandfather, whilst also not throwing away the entire reason for working as hard as you did, which was to be able to afford your fucking family-" Yeah. "... the life that you never had?" Right. So, you know, first off, I think you did the best that you could so you need to give yourself some grace with that. And look, if this was, so if 50% was like the middle of the bell curve of how much toughness versus easiness you could give kids- Mm-hmm. ... I would guess that most kids and most parents are too far on the easy side. Mm-hmm. I think snowplow parenting, helicopter parenting, gentle parenting, whilst, um, noble in its intentions, is usually kind of over pattern matched and results in soft entitled adults. Right. Uh, narcissistic, soft entitled adults, uh, uh, when they grow up. Um, given the choice between the two sort of being pushed a little bit further on the other side- Mm-hmm. ... uh, is a very strange kind of gift. I, I think what would be interesting would be to know how much of that is actually because of the way that you raised them and how much of that is just your genes. Um, the more that I learn about behavioral genetics, heritability of different traits- Mm-hmm. ... so on and so forth. (laughs) Like, I, this I, I, this should be comforting. As far as I can see there is no such thing as really getting parenting right. There is only getting it wrong. Mm-hmm. And getting it wrong, kids are pretty fucking resilient. Mm-hmm. Like, they're really, really tough. And you see perfectly balanced adults that grew up in horrendous childhood environments. Mm-hmm. Uh, and I think as long as there's no really extreme, well, maybe you would say some of the, the climbs with The Rock were slightly extreme. (laughs) Um, my point is, I get the sense that if they're made out of the same stuff that you are made out of, they didn't really have a choice whether you made them go up the mountain or not. I think that there is a lot more built into you. You know, you're talking about consistently running for four decades. Mm-hmm. And thinking about framing that up against what that meant in your childhood and, you know, this sort of relentlessness that you approach, like even the pod when you started that, I think that was episode 3, 2, 3, 4, something like that. Mm-hmm. It's now like, what, 160- Mm-hmm. ... some shit. Uh, like even with that, that's, that's not, that's a level of, of work rate that most people don't hold up. And s- just a minor little- Yeah. ... area than in the hunting and then in the lifting and then in the bow stuff and then in the running and then in the... So, you know, maybe there is, maybe it's contributed, but what I would, if I could sort of bet a couple of chips on the roulette wheel of a couple of other universes in which you'd approached your kids differently- Mm-hmm. ... I think they'd be probably 90%, 80 or 90% of the way there just with less experience about how to deal with it. Yeah. Um, and one of the best things you can do for your kids, I think as a (laughs) fucking look at me spouting nonsense as a non-father. (laughs) The internet loves when I do this. Um, one of the best things that you can do is set a g- good example. Mm-hmm. You know, you can read all of the books about healthy attachment and child education and socialization and all the rest of it, but they will learn more from the way that you and your wife show up for each other around the dinner table than every lesson that you try and force into them. Mm-hmm. Like, you can top down try and tell them how they're supposed to behave. "This is how you're supposed to treat girls. You don't hit girls and you don't do this. And you must hold the door and you gotta be this way and be blah, blah, blah, blah." It's like, all right, but then when you're around the dinner table, you're a prick. Mm-hmm. You look at your phone instead of looking at your wife. Yeah. Or you ignore her, or you don't laugh at her jokes, or you, you guys- Mm-hmm. ... don't relate well, or they never see you be physically affectionate to each other or- Mm-hmm. ... whatever it is. It's not for me to say that you need to like force a relationship, but- Yeah. ... the point is I think that kids learn by seeing...... a lot more than they get learned by being told. And-
- CHCameron Hanes
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that's what you're doing. Even if you hadn't made them go up the mountain and you were like, "I'm off to go up the mountain," they'd be like, "Well, Dad's going up the mountain. Can I come up the mountain?"
- CHCameron Hanes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
You know? So...
- CHCameron Hanes
Yeah. It's, uh... And, and I was thinking also too, it's not just, like, what you do, but when you have that mindset about life is competition, um, hard work is the, is the, the key, whatever. That's... That is impacting how you talk and how you carry yourself 'cause everybody says, says the right thing. They, they tell their kids what you're supposed to tell your kids. It's like, as you said, "No, you hold the door for women. You, you know, be respectful." Everybody says the right stuff, but how you carry yourself and then how you s- how you talk, not when you're delivering some ultimatum or some direction-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CHCameron Hanes
... but just how you... what's your mindset? And that's when it's not controlled, when it's not... you're not thinking about it. So my mindset was always, "Let's do more, perform more, push harder." So, I, I guess to your point that even if I wasn't ma-... they were seeing that.
- CWChris Williamson
Of course.
- CHCameron Hanes
It's, um... Yeah. It's... You know, y- you talked about Truett, you know, originally, but even for him, it reminded... Your story sort of reminded me of his. Like, people see him now, and they're like... I mean, he's easy to... He gets hate too 'cause he's easy to hate, definitely. Um, he's got a lot going for him, and that's... That will build some resentment over... with some guys. But for him, he lost for years. He, he didn't miss a day lifting weights for, like, 14 years. Still hasn't. I started them lifting when they were 14, both him and Tanner. And since that time, he hasn't missed more than a day. So, it was loss after loss after loss. He's, like, tiny, not getting bi-... He... And he mentioned this. We did this... We're doing this video on his pull-ups that, you know, he broke the world record. And he's just like... He goes, "I don't think..." He goes, "I didn't realize that Tanner was kicking my ass every day as his older brother. Anytime we'd compete, me against him, I would never let the kids win." It was always like...
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- CHCameron Hanes
It was always a battle. Always crying, I mean, kicking the basketball down the street 'cause we're so mad. "Go get it."
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- CHCameron Hanes
Tanner, uh... I was throwing, like, football as hard as I could, making him catch it 'cause he's a receiver. Drops it, punches the ground, breaks his hand. So, there's, like, all these losses essentially.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CHCameron Hanes
So, Truett said, "I didn't know that... Yeah, I was getting beat by my older brother. I was getting beat by you every day." He goes, "I didn't realize Tanner was the biggest beast, one of the biggest beasts he's ever met." And he goes, "And I didn't know you were who you were." "I thought," he said, "I just thought I was weak and a loser."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- CHCameron Hanes
"I didn't know that I was going against these, these people that were making me..."
- 35:46 – 44:52
Why the Internet Hates Successful Men
- CWChris Williamson
very special type of distaste and envy that the internet has toward, uh, certain types of successful men. Uh, I still haven't kind of fully worked out what it is. Um, it's kind of like the inverse of pretty privilege that, uh-
- CHCameron Hanes
Yeah, girls have. Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... yeah, that girls get. But, you know, dude, chicks do not have it easy, uh, around other women. Like, if you're an attractive woman, you better watch your back 'cause holy fuck, they're coming for you.
- CHCameron Hanes
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, they are coming for you hard.
- CHCameron Hanes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
But in the same way, uh, men, masculine men, uh, guys that certainly seem, like, competent, especially if you're young. If you're a bit older, uh, I think guys are a tiny little bit less threatened. I think a lot of this, you know, from both sides, just comes down to mating-
- CHCameron Hanes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... that, uh, if...... you're a hot woman-
- CHCameron Hanes
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... then you, with your hand in your boyfriend's hand, thinks, "You better not be fucking looking at her, bitch."
- CHCameron Hanes
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Like, "What's she wearing a skirt that short for?"
- CHCameron Hanes
Yeah. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Um, and the same thing in reverse. And here's an interesting stat. The only, uh, uh, one of the most predictive, um, traits around enhancing attractiveness is masculinity measured by muscularity.
- CHCameron Hanes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
So, if you're a guy and you are a five out of ten and you get yourself in the gym for a decade, you're probably going to be like a six or a seven, eh, you know, assuming that you don't fuck your face up in the process by dropping weights on it.
- CHCameron Hanes
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Um, basically, there was this fascinating study done by a guy called David Putz and he got, uh, women to rate the, uh, attractiveness of men, these images of men, and (laughs) got men to rate the same men as, "How likely do you think it is that you would beat this man in a fight?"
- CHCameron Hanes
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
So, you have female rating of attractiveness-
- CHCameron Hanes
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... and male rating of formidability, right?
- CHCameron Hanes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And then, 12 months later, they brought the men that were the photos into the study and they said, "How many sexual partners have you had over the last 12 months?"
- CHCameron Hanes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
The female rating of attractiveness had zero predictive power. The male rating of formidability almost exactly predicted their most, uh, uh, level of, uh, like sexual partners.
- CHCameron Hanes
Really?
- CWChris Williamson
So, what it seems is, formidability, uh, especially as sort of, um, shown by that typically masculine... And this isn't the only way to, you know, get into a woman's pants or whatever.
- CHCameron Hanes
(laughs)
- 44:52 – 47:08
The Record For Running a Marathon in Crocs
- CWChris Williamson
that the world marathon record for wearing Crocs just got broken this weekend.
- CHCameron Hanes
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
Fourth time's a charm. That was the UK's Tommy Treece mindset as he made his fourth attempt to put his name in the Guinness Book of World Records, and finally he came out successful. Sunday's London marathon, Treece put his Crocs into sport mode and clocked a 2:48:48.
- CHCameron Hanes
Pretty fast.
- CWChris Williamson
Surpassing the previous record for the fastest marathon wearing foam Crocs. Uh, 41 new world records. Uh, over the past year, the record for the fastest mara- marathon wearing Crocs was broken four times, so this is really heating up.
- CHCameron Hanes
Whoa.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, the London race mark Treece's 12th marathon, and followed three failed attempts to break the fastest marathon dressed as Santa Claus-
- CHCameron Hanes
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... which stands at 2:33:23, and, uh, he's also got a 2:29:41 when he's not in Crocs. Uh, so he pivoted from, uh, dressing as Santa to doing it in, in Crocs. So I think Crocs and jeans is j- that's the perfect blend.
- CHCameron Hanes
They-
- CWChris Williamson
What's happening with his, what's happening with his jeans in the marathon thing? What's he doing next?
- CHCameron Hanes
Um, next up ... Oh, he's doing a Last Man Standing Race here in Austin. Or-
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, that's the next place.
- CHCameron Hanes
Next race, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- CHCameron Hanes
Yeah. So that's, that's a 4.2-mile loop every hour for as long as you can do it.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- CHCameron Hanes
So that's ... But Guinness won't approve a jeans marathon.
- CWChris Williamson
Why?
- CHCameron Hanes
I have no idea.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CHCameron Hanes
'Cause Truett tried to do that too.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CHCameron Hanes
And I tried to do, like, I was gonna run a marathon with a bow.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- CHCameron Hanes
Like, just run with it.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- CHCameron Hanes
They wouldn't approve that either.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CHCameron Hanes
And, uh, so I, I don't know why. But they'll approve dressed as Santa, wearing Crocs. Uh, a guy j- just, uh, I saw the guy in Boston, uh, Jordan Maddox, he ran in, dressed as a banana. Set the world record.
- 47:08 – 51:12
Seeing the Success of Cam’s Kids
- CWChris Williamson
It's, I don't know. It's, it's fascinating, dude, watching this thing unfold. And obviously after getting to hang at you, with you and kids at your house and get to meet-
- CHCameron Hanes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... everybody and sort of watching the last two years, it's been, uh, kind of unsurprising, you know, to be honest. Um ...
- CHCameron Hanes
It's unsurprising or surprising?
- CWChris Williamson
Unsurprising.
- CHCameron Hanes
Oh.
- CWChris Williamson
Totally unsurprising. It's like the least surprising-
- CHCameron Hanes
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... thing that could have happened.
- CHCameron Hanes
Yeah, and ... Yeah, I, I love to see it. I mean, um, yeah, Truett's doing good as far as, like, he's selling his sponsorships and he's doing, like, road to sub 02:30 or diatribe, so-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CHCameron Hanes
You know, it's like a weekly video series. So yeah, he's ... I love to see it. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
What was watching him do that, the most recent pull-up record, like?
- CHCameron Hanes
Um, yeah. I mean, it's ... I just remember ... It's a big, it's a big ask, 10,000 pull-ups. You got two contact points, basically your hands. Um, that's a lot of pressure, a lot of reps, a lot of little stuff that can go wrong, uh, ligaments, tendons. You know, Goggins tried it a few times before he got it, and one time, I think live on Good Morning American, got injured. So, did it alive some other time and got injured. So there's no guarantee you're gonna make it unscathed-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- CHCameron Hanes
... through a challenge, 24 hours of pull-ups. But for Truett, I mean, he's so dedicated and obsessed. He had trained so hard. And it's like ... And when he got it, I just, you know, that night I just remember saying, you know, "Good job. I'm not surprised. This is, this is what you're supposed to do. This is..."... if, if you weren't doing shit like this, then I'd be like, "What the fuck's going on?"
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- CHCameron Hanes
So this is what, this is what I expected. This is, this is the expectation that's always been there. You gu- I, I told the boys, and my daughter too for that matter, but, "You guys aren't normal. I'm not... Normal isn't okay. Average isn't okay. You're supposed to be doing stuff like this. That's why we're here." So it's like, I said, "Good job," but yeah, not surprised.
- CWChris Williamson
Expected job, in some ways.
- CHCameron Hanes
Yeah. That was it. He did what he was supposed to do.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. It's like I said, dude, it was not... It was, it was like the least surprising thing-
- CHCameron Hanes
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that happened.
- CHCameron Hanes
It, it's... I, I think it's cool that... I think it's cool that it's something that no human has ever done. He did 10,000. No human's ever been to 10,000 in 24 hours on pull-ups.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- CHCameron Hanes
So it's, uh... And as you mentioned earlier, anybody who's tried to do a pull-up... (laughs) Fucking five pull-ups is hard.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- CHCameron Hanes
Five pull-ups is hard, for, for me.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- CHCameron Hanes
It's like, "10,000? Crazy."
- 51:12 – 55:44
Is Love or Hate a Better Motivator?
- CWChris Williamson
You've said... I've seen you say that you think love is the most powerful form of motivation. What's the role of love and passion in this? A lot of what we're talking about so far is... It's like aggression, it's gripping-
- CHCameron Hanes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... some resentment in there. There's, you know, sort of wanting to prove people wrong. And then you talk about love and passion.
- CHCameron Hanes
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Where's that come from?
- CHCameron Hanes
Um, yeah, I don't... I think, I might th- I might say passion, love. Sometimes the, the saying I have with love is like, uh, "Love makes me strong-"
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CHCameron Hanes
"... hate makes me unstoppable."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- CHCameron Hanes
(laughs) So-
- CWChris Williamson
Good.
- CHCameron Hanes
... I still lean-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- CHCameron Hanes
... for whatever reason, I am motivated by hate-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CHCameron Hanes
... by people talking shit, by people not believing in me. If somebody supports you, I mean, it's, uh, that's great. I don't wanna say I don't give a fuck, but... Hate is what pushes me. Hate and people discounting what I've done or my effort or my goals, that. That's what drives me. I don't know why. But love is great, support, I appreciate support. Um, but I just think that, y- you know... How... I, I will... You said love and passion, so passion, yes, because in, in my book, I talk about outliers and, you know, you're one of 'em. But what, what makes somebody an outlier in my mind is this pas- passion for this thing-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CHCameron Hanes
... "What's this thing? What's this thing they do?" For you, it's just, you know, thought provoking, intellectual discussions, like peeling back the onions, figuring out, you know, modern wisdom. Um, and you're the best at it, right? So wha- whatever... You had this passion to learn, to learn more about human behavior and, and the brain and the body and sexual attrac- attractiveness and different, different things like that. That's, that's... Passion drove that, right? So I think passion is what sets people apart. Love and hate, that can go either way.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. It's interesting thinking about how hate is a better motivator or a bigger motivator for you, uh, because it puts anybody that wants to bring you down in a very awkward position that they have to compliment you in order to not drive you further.
- CHCameron Hanes
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
They have to say something nice if they want to slow you down.
- CHCameron Hanes
Yeah, I mean, but when somebody says... You know how many people say, "Yeah," you know, "Love you," it's just like, "Is that real?" But hate... Hate's-
- CWChris Williamson
That's usually pretty real.
- CHCameron Hanes
... it's real.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- CHCameron Hanes
People say-
- CWChris Williamson
That's a good point, that's a good point. People are flippant with their love, but they're not that flippant with their hate.
- CHCameron Hanes
If they hate you, that, that means something. That's deep. That's why it's like... I think that's why-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh.
- CHCameron Hanes
... that drives me.
- 55:44 – 1:12:39
The Trap of Meaning Without Pleasure
- CHCameron Hanes
- CWChris Williamson
I've been thinking about this for a while. I haven't written it out yet, so I'm gonna try and play with this idea live with you. Um, there's a quote from Viktor Frankl that says, "When a man can't find a deep sense of meaning, they distract themselves with pleasure." Right? And his point is, I think, that if your life is, uh, bereft of a higher purpose, you, uh, look at hedonism and, and, and short-term gratification-
- CHCameron Hanes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... and stuff like that. I think there's an inverse, and I think that you, and maybe me as well, are good examples of the inverse, that when a man can't find a deep sense of pleasure, they distract themselves with meaning.
- CHCameron Hanes
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And that if your day-to-day experience of life, I don't know, just sort of joy and, like, play and ease and fun and lightness, if that's just not what you grew up being taught or that's not sort of your psychological set point or disposition, or it just doesn't come as easily to you as it does maybe to other people, uh, I, I think I see in a lot of the people that are, like, overachievers, uh, in the winning the marshmallow test of life Just permanently delaying gratification.
- CHCameron Hanes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, I think I see that as quite a common archetype that, oh, how, how easily do you, you just switch off, smoke weed and play Xbox?
- CHCameron Hanes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
It's like, fucking impossibly. Like, it just, it doesn't happen.
- CHCameron Hanes
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And, and, uh, how much sort of play and ease and grace and jo- y- you know, how, how easy does sort of enjoyment and lightness come? And it's like, "Oh, s- so, you know, sometimes things are kinda heavy and I apply pressure to myself, or even when it's not needed-"
- CHCameron Hanes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"... and sometimes I struggle to give myself a break," and so on and so forth. So I think that, yeah, that, uh, when a man can't find a deep sense of pleasure, they distract themselves with meaning, um, you know, instead of just having a fun Saturday morning with the kids.
- CHCameron Hanes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
It's like we're taking a big rock and a couple of small rocks and we're going up that fucking hill-
- CHCameron Hanes
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... again.
- CHCameron Hanes
Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, yeah, when you, when you were saying that, I was thinking about, um, yeah, I don't know, it's, uh, I, I'm, I'm happiest when I'm suffering. So I've heard people say, like, it, they said this mostly about Goggins, and I know you've talked to him too, but it's just like, asking him, it's like, "Are you ever happy?" It's just like, for him, he's happy when he's miserable. So it's like, well, whose definition of happy are you talking about? Is your happy eating fucking donuts, watching TV?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CHCameron Hanes
That sounds miserable to me. So it's like these, people th- get these words and they're like, "Are you happy? Are you enjoying yourself? Do you ever have fun?" It's like, running up that mountain is fun. That's what I like. So, yeah, it's, uh, when you're talking about pleasure and passion, I was trying to, to, to weigh that out there on, on what is, what is happiness t- for people.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CHCameron Hanes
You know, and also, and an- another thing, um, I see you put up, like, three million subscribers.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CHCameron Hanes
So it's like, is that... What type of... Does that do anything for you? Is that... I mean, 'cause you'll never let off. You're like, "Okay, I made it. I'm good. I got three million. That was my goal." But you put that up like sometimes people will put up things, like, "Like, I made it."
- CWChris Williamson
Hm.
- CHCameron Hanes
"Like, this is my... I'm here, but-"
- CWChris Williamson
I have arrived.
- CHCameron Hanes
... to you, that's just, what is that?
- CWChris Williamson
Just another little-
- 1:12:39 – 1:21:00
Cam’s Most Difficult Physical Tests
- CWChris Williamson
So what, what are the most difficult things that you've done physically? You've got this long, illustrious career of doing fucking stupid things to yourself.
- CHCameron Hanes
Yeah. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
What- what rank in the, the, the top few?
- CHCameron Hanes
Oh, it's, uh, the long races. You know, the... Well, this race I have coming up is 250 miles. I've done 240 miles. I've done 200 miles. 100 miles is hard. Um, marathons are hard when you're pushing. Lot of hard hunts where you're just miserable, you know, in the snow. Long hunt, Kodiak Island for 12 days. So it's, um, tho- but those are...Um, those... They're not predictable, but you know what you're getting into. You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, you know it's going to be terrible and it's gonna, you're gonna be miserable probably for a while, but that's part of the deal. That's just like, that's why you sign up, is that test.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CHCameron Hanes
I'm trying to test myself. I want to see if I'm tough enough to do this. So those, when I think of hard, it's those.
- CWChris Williamson
Are there any in particular that come to mind from the hunts or the races perspective?
- CHCameron Hanes
Um, yeah. I mean, yeah, I've been on, uh, I don't know, a lot of hard hunts in the mountains, just being soaking, soaking wet. I mean, one time me and Roy were sheep hunting. Roy's my friend who fell. But before, obviously before he fell, we were sheep hunting. Um, miserable weather conditions, super steep. Uh, we were blood trailing this ram and it wasn't a good shot. So it's like, uh, it was gonna be a long, hard blood trail to kinda decipher and get this animal. And it got dark, and then a grizzly was kind of circling the tents and, uh, I was just like, "I don't give a fuck. I'm going to bed. I'm not, I'm, I'm not even, I don't care about this bear. I don't know what's gonna..." Whatever. Went, so tired, just went to bed. (laughs) So that's, that's being miserable.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CHCameron Hanes
Um, on Kodiak, you know, you get dropped off and I remember in, in my book, Backcountry Bow Hunting, the pilot like wrote down the day he was supposed to come back and pick us up on his jeans with a pen. So it's like, hopefully he doesn't wash those jeans (laughs) . You know, so he's, he's gonna come back in what, 12 days, two weeks to get us. And then, this is first week in November, so it's pouring down rain every day. Kodiak is just south, south of, uh, the mainland there. Um, and it's, uh, it's just miserable. Every day you're wet, it's just miserable. So, um, yeah. Then if you talk about the races, you're going the, the long races. So in Moab, 240, I think I slept for about, I don't know, I can't remember now, it's been a few years, but two to four hours and it took me 79 hours to finish the race. So over three days and slept, you know, maybe four hours total. So that, when... You know what it feels like to get a good night's rest. So it's like nothing feels better, it seems like. So on the opposite of that, when all you want to do is sleep but you have to keep pushing for 240 miles-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CHCameron Hanes
... it's, that seems overwhelming. So to just, to be able muster up the strength to still take another step, where every step is an effort. And so, if you think, when I go running, every mile is 2,000 steps. So if I'm doing 200 and... You know, so it's 500,000 steps. 500,000 steps roughly, and every one is an effort. It's tough.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CHCameron Hanes
That hurts. So those, those experiences stand out.
- CWChris Williamson
The first guy I ever had on the podcast, episode one, that people should not go back and listen to.
- CHCameron Hanes
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, but it's fu- interesting episode. It's, uh, a guy called Stu Morton who was, uh, training to row the Atlantic solo.
- CHCameron Hanes
Oh.
- CWChris Williamson
So this is, uh, the Talisker Whiskey Race. It's a pretty common-
- CHCameron Hanes
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
... thing. Um, but it's very extreme. You know, you go from, I think, uh, the coast of Portugal, uh, to kind of the Caribbean. And, um, you know, the interesting thing with that is that people that do it in groups of two or three or four are really no quicker than the person that does it on their own.
- CHCameron Hanes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Because for every additional person, you need a bigger boat and more supplies and another person, which is more drag.
- CHCameron Hanes
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So everybody kind of nets out at the same pace.
- CHCameron Hanes
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
You can go at... Now, obviously, I guess, uh, physically it m- must be a little-
- CHCameron Hanes
Shared workload, probably.
- CWChris Williamson
... a l- a- a little easier, but, uh, yeah, I remember speaking to him and I th- I can't remem- It was something like 14 million oar strokes or something he needed to do to get himself... It's just 14 million?
- CHCameron Hanes
Yeah.
Episode duration: 1:54:46
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