You Can’t “Solve” Your Relationship - Arthur Brooks

1. 0:00 – 9:26

   How Podcasts Are Getting People to Learn More

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      I think if I, if I was to give myself the three traits that I've managed to hold onto: I pay a lot of attention to detail, I have a unusual capacity for suffering, uh, or doing, d- delaying gratification might be an easier way to put it, uh, and I'm just consistent. And those three things seem to be, like, pretty potent fuel, no matter what industry you try and get into.

   2. ABArthur Brooks0:24

      Yeah, but then of course there's the natural level of curiosity, high level of cognitive ability, right? I mean, tha- those are table stakes, though. That's your point, right?

   3. CWChris Williamson0:32

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   4. ABArthur Brooks0:33

      For s-

   5. CWChris Williamson0:33

      You've got to have that to play the game.

   6. ABArthur Brooks0:34

      Yeah, yeah. Because otherwise, you have that to play the game, but then when things are slow at the very beginning, that's when you stop your podcast.

   7. CWChris Williamson0:41

      Correct.

   8. ABArthur Brooks0:42

      And you didn't...

   9. CWChris Williamson0:43

      A lot of, a lot of questions come through from people who say stuff like, um, "Hey man, in the beginning, when you didn't have any plays or anything, like, you know, what motivated you to keep going?" But, t- to be honest, man, my motivation waned way more in sort of year three and four and five.

   10. ABArthur Brooks0:57

       'Cause you were getting bored.

   11. CWChris Williamson0:58

       Yeah, it's like, well I've, I've been there. There's, there's n- you're trying to inject novelty-

   12. ABArthur Brooks1:03

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:03

       ... into what you do, and you're trying t- uh, uh, e- even less than that, you're just trying to not let it get stale. And, um, you know, how many books deep are you now?

   14. ABArthur Brooks1:12

       F- f- uh, f- 15.

   15. CWChris Williamson1:14

       (laughs)

   16. ABArthur Brooks1:15

       (laughs) 14 and 15 are coming out in the next year.

   17. CWChris Williamson1:19

       Uh, w- there's a new one about meaning?

   18. ABArthur Brooks1:20

       The one that's coming out about meaning is coming out one year from the 14th.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:24

       Unreal.

   20. ABArthur Brooks1:24

       April 14th 2026.

   21. CWChris Williamson1:25

       I'm so fired up for that. I've been thinking about m- I remember I read this, Roy Baumeister-

   22. ABArthur Brooks1:29

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:29

       ... uh, uh-

   24. ABArthur Brooks1:30

       Buddy of mine.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:31

       ... essay, article, a journal post from like 2011, uh-

   26. ABArthur Brooks1:35

       Compressing Meaning and Happiness. That one. And-

   27. CWChris Williamson1:37

       Fucking legend, dude.

   28. ABArthur Brooks1:39

       Yeah, yeah, totally, and my whole concept of happiness rolls meaning into happiness.

   29. CWChris Williamson1:44

       Right.

   30. ABArthur Brooks1:44

       Thus incorporating unhappiness into the process of getting happier, which of course is the standard experience of being fully alive.
2. 9:26 – 24:52

   The Brain Science of Falling in Love

   1. CWChris Williamson9:26

      something about how to fall in love and stay in love.

   2. ABArthur Brooks9:28

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson9:28

      Yeah.

   4. ABArthur Brooks9:28

      That's a lot of what I talk about, is how to fall in love and stay in love, and part of the reason is because that's the most complex thing that we're going to do. And- and what- what peop- so, the modern world teaches us h- how to use complicated formulas to solve problems. That's what social media is all about, that's what technology is about, that's what all of the engineering solutions that we find in life is, there's a, there's an app for that. There's not an app for the most complex thing in life, which is falling in love. You know, it's funny because you know exactly what it is, but you can't simulate it, you can't, you can't predict it, you can't solve for it, and even though I've been married almost 34 years, I don't know what's gonna happen today. I- my wife will get really mad at me probably today. My wife is Spanish and so, you know, they're a very quarrelsome people. (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson10:13

      It's a diplomatic way to put it, yeah.

   6. ABArthur Brooks10:14

      And- and- and- and she would say that we're a defensive group. We-

   7. CWChris Williamson10:18

      Fuego.

   8. ABArthur Brooks10:18

      Yeah, that's right. (laughs) So, we're- we're defensive, we're, Americans are Brits. So, the result of it is that we're gonna have a conflict today, but I can't predict what it's gonna be. I- I don't know what it's gonna be. You know? (laughs) And- and I've been married for almost 34 y- I'm in love. I'm- I have a great marriage, but I still can't solve my marriage.

   9. CWChris Williamson10:35

      Mm.

   10. ABArthur Brooks10:35

       I can't solve for it, I can only live it. So, this is the thing, everybody wants to solve problems that are complicated, and they need to live the problems that are most important to us in life, which are complex. Complex problems can't be solved, they can only be experienced.

   11. CWChris Williamson10:51

       Mm.

   12. ABArthur Brooks10:51

       A football game is a complex problem. That's why you watch the game, you don't just simulate it on a computer, because that would be impossible. Your marriage is a football game, right? And- and that's kind of, and so that's the- the spirit in which you go into it, which is I'm gonna, I gotta go live this thing. I gotta go make a mistake and get my heart stomped on and li- and learn, and live the thing again, and live the thing again. And so when I'm talking about it, I talk about, number one, the brain science behind what it means to fall in love and experience that, and then the ways that we get it wrong, the ways that we chronically get it wrong. And of course, that's the unit of the class my students are most interested in.

   13. CWChris Williamson11:25

       Talk to me about the brain science, what's going with love?

   14. ABArthur Brooks11:28

       So, falling in love is a five-step process in your brain. Four steps depending on how you count it. Number one is the e- is the ignition of falling in love. Ignition is attraction in falling in love. This is one of the reasons that, you know, even people who aren't shallow wanna look good, because you actually, if you're going to start the falling in love process, you actually have to have sex hormones involved, estrogen, estradiol, um, uh, testosterone. Both, men and women have both, have both, just in different ratios, and you need both for the ignition of the attraction for romantic love. But that's just the very beginning. The second stage is where you actually start getting neurotransmitters involved, most notably norepinephrine and dopamine.... and, and what those do is they bring anticipation of reward, which is dopamine, and a sense of euphoria, which is, uh, is norepinephrine, produced by the adrenal glands, right above the kidneys, right?

   15. CWChris Williamson12:19

       Mm-hmm.

   16. ABArthur Brooks12:19

       And that's what makes you go from, "I'm really attracted to this person," to, "I, I think she just sent me a text message." Like, you, a text message, who cares, right?

   17. CWChris Williamson12:28

       (laughs)

   18. ABArthur Brooks12:28

       But it's the anticipation of reward and the euphoria that comes from seeing the thing pop up on your phone.

   19. CWChris Williamson12:33

       Yeah.

   20. ABArthur Brooks12:33

       That's really, I mean, psychology, Chris, is biology.

   21. CWChris Williamson12:37

       Mm-hmm.

   22. ABArthur Brooks12:37

       And this is a perfect case study of that, and that's the second step in falling in love is those two neurotransmitters kicking in.

   23. CWChris Williamson12:43

       Okay, I just wanna get, uh, I don't wanna f- forget our train of thought here. So, you'll have seen Adolescence, maybe on Netflix.

   24. ABArthur Brooks12:51

       Uh, I haven't d- actually, everybody's talking about it, but I haven't seen it yet.

   25. CWChris Williamson12:53

       Yes, I had William Costello sat in that seat last week.

   26. ABArthur Brooks12:55

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson12:55

       He's the number one researcher of incels in the world. Uh, i- interestingly, he, as a, an academic at David Buss's lab here at UT Austin-

   28. ABArthur Brooks13:03

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson13:03

       ... uh, had to repurpose his introduction of how he described himself. He says, uh, "I'm an incel researcher." Says, "I'm a researcher of incels." (laughs)

   30. ABArthur Brooks13:12

       No, I know. (laughs)
3. 24:52 – 30:44

   Should You Marry Your Best Friend?

   1. ABArthur Brooks24:52

      it.

   2. CWChris Williamson24:52

      You've said you want to... Your partner should be your best friend, or you should be best friends with your partner, but marrying a best friend is not-

   3. ABArthur Brooks25:01

      That's not, no.

   4. CWChris Williamson25:02

      ... a strategy.

   5. ABArthur Brooks25:02

      So you got, you gotta go through one, two and three. You gotta have a ton of attraction, you have to have lots of anticipation and euphoria, you have to go through the bonding stage of rumination on the other person-

   6. CWChris Williamson25:13

      Mm-hmm.

   7. ABArthur Brooks25:13

      ... and then you have to arrive at best friendship through that particular process.

   8. CWChris Williamson25:17

      Yeah, you can't just-

   9. ABArthur Brooks25:18

      Exactly right.

   10. CWChris Williamson25:18

       ... leapfrog straight to the end.

   11. ABArthur Brooks25:19

       Yeah, exactly right.

   12. CWChris Williamson25:20

       Uh-

   13. ABArthur Brooks25:20

       So this is why a lot of the stuff that we see in modern life is screwing up relationships so much. So dating apps, for example, they, they short-circuit this process. They don't let you get into later stages, because you're rejecting people at the storefront.

   14. CWChris Williamson25:34

       Hmm.

   15. ABArthur Brooks25:34

       Rejecting too many people at the storefront. That's why you can't solve for love. Plus, people putting together dating profiles looking for themselves. You curate your choices on the basis of your tastes, and you want somebody who matches your taste, and it-

   16. CWChris Williamson25:47

       Do we not mate assortatively though?

   17. ABArthur Brooks25:49

       We have a minim- pretty minimal level of compatibility, and then what really attracts us is complementarity. And, and dating apps don't actually give us complementarity, because you're not like, "I want somebody who completes me. I'm a Democrat. I want somebody who's a Republican." You don't say that. It's like, "I'm not gonna..." I mean, the big majori- 71% of Democrats won't date a Republican. 41% of Republicans won't date a Democrat. Why is the diff- wh- quiz me this, Chris. What's the, why the difference between Democrats and Republicans in assortative political mating?

   18. CWChris Williamson26:20

       Uh, I would guess, well, Democrats, I would assume, are more open to experience as a personality profile.

   19. ABArthur Brooks26:29

       But they're more likely to not date a Republican.

   20. CWChris Williamson26:30

       That's my point.

   21. ABArthur Brooks26:31

       Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson26:32

       Uh, but they're more open to experience-

   23. ABArthur Brooks26:33

       Hm.

   24. CWChris Williamson26:34

       ... as a personality profile, so that seems to be... So then not only having to, whatever it is, whatever the, uh, effect as it's going on, it's having to compensate for their openness-

   25. ABArthur Brooks26:42

       Mm-hmm.

   26. CWChris Williamson26:42

       ... their increase in openness, so this is even more strong.

   27. ABArthur Brooks26:45

       Mm-hmm.

   28. CWChris Williamson26:48

       I could try and pull out as much bro social science as I want about purity spiral, sense of ideological, uh, rigidity-

   29. ABArthur Brooks26:56

       Mm-hmm.

   30. CWChris Williamson26:57

       ... uh, that-
4. 30:44 – 37:45

   How Dopamine Addicts Fall in Love

   1. ABArthur Brooks30:44

      love.

   2. CWChris Williamson30:44

      Okay. Talk to me about the, uh-... fellow dopamine, norepinephrine addicts out there about how they can... It sounds to me like biology and psychology were along for the ride here. We don't really get to choose, much of the time, who we fall in love with. You know, if you spend enough time around the person and you go, "Fuck," like they, they... All of the things I said I wasn't-

   3. ABArthur Brooks31:05

      Right.

   4. CWChris Williamson31:05

      ... going to fall for and there they are.

   5. ABArthur Brooks31:08

      Yeah. So this is true, and this is-

   6. CWChris Williamson31:09

      (clears throat)

   7. ABArthur Brooks31:09

      ... and there's, there's a really interesting research going back to the '90s on this. You know the work of Art Aron?

   8. CWChris Williamson31:14

      No, not at all.

   9. ABArthur Brooks31:14

      Arthur Aron at, at SUNY Stony Brook. This actually got news because it was covered in the New York Times and it became sort of pop, um, social psychology research. This was love in the lab where he was actually simulating neurochemical cascade, um, and here's how he did it.

   10. CWChris Williamson31:28

       Artificially?

   11. ABArthur Brooks31:29

       Yeah. So that here's how he did it. He brought people into his lab and it was people who didn't know each other, but who based on surveys beforehand were theoretically capable of falling in love with each other. So it wasn't people who were 30 years apart in age and it was people who were, you know, opposite sex attracted and, and who would rate pictures of attractiveness more or less the same. So it was men and women, it was all heterosexual potential couples and they came in the lab. They come in opposite doors, they sit down at a table across from each other and they, and they, they don't know each other at all. They've never seen each other. Of course it's undergraduate students 'cause they'll do anything for 20 bucks.

   12. CWChris Williamson32:02

       (clears throat)

   13. ABArthur Brooks32:03

       And th- he starts asking them questions. He asks them 36 questions that, that, that escalate in terms of intimacy. So it's question one is, um, "If you could have lunch with anybody or dinner with anybody in the world, who would it be and why?" Right? That's like a icebreaker at a party, right?

   14. CWChris Williamson32:19

       (clears throat)

   15. ABArthur Brooks32:20

       Steve Jobs, you know, whoever it happens to be. Well, why? Question 30 is, um, "When's the last time you cried and why?" Now, your mom doesn't know that. Your actual partner probably doesn't know that. But you have to answer the question and you're going super deep. So this is simulating... You're just, you're screaming through the process of intimacy-

   16. CWChris Williamson32:40

       Mm-hmm.

   17. ABArthur Brooks32:40

       ... with this person and then, haha, now is when it gets really good. At the end they have to gaze into each other's eyes, blinking as little as possible for four minutes to release as much oxytocin as possible. And they would walk one after the other out of the lab saying, "I- I feel like I just fell in love. I feel like I just fell in love."

   18. CWChris Williamson33:01

       (laughs) It's horribly manipulative.

   19. ABArthur Brooks33:02

       Yeah, yeah. L-

   20. CWChris Williamson33:03

       Could you, could you get it pass an ethics board now do you think, in-

   21. ABArthur Brooks33:05

       Oh, an IRB, I don't know. One couple got married.

   22. CWChris Williamson33:08

       Hm. Okay. Well done.

   23. ABArthur Brooks33:09

       I mean, not that day.

   24. CWChris Williamson33:10

       Yeah. Right, right, yeah, yeah.

   25. ABArthur Brooks33:11

       But a bunch of the couples wound up dating.

   26. CWChris Williamson33:13

       L- that-

   27. ABArthur Brooks33:13

       A bunch of them, the couples wound up dating and one actually after college got married.

   28. CWChris Williamson33:16

       Wow.

   29. ABArthur Brooks33:17

       Yeah, yeah. No, it's, it's unreal because we, we think that there's some sort of, you know, Disney soul mates kind of metaphysical thing going on, but we're, we're made for pair bonds. Humans are made for pair bond mating. This is one of the m- most important imperatives of human life and our brains are built for it. But this is the important thing that, this is one of the things I teach my business students and, and, and my clients is be careful with this. So I, you know, you know in my, in my company in my unit, I need more t- I g- I need a team building exercise. Hmm. You know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna do an offsite. No spouses so that we can really get to know each other better. I'm, I'm, I just put them in a lab, man. And so when you're all day long with somebody and you're working with somebody with whom you could conceivably have a relationship, even though you don't want to.

   30. CWChris Williamson34:06

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
5. 37:45 – 46:05

   Sex Differences in Jealousy & Desire

   1. ABArthur Brooks37:45

   2. CWChris Williamson37:45

      Yeah. Uh, uh, David Buss wrote, um-

   3. ABArthur Brooks37:48

      He's fantastic.

   4. CWChris Williamson37:49

      He's fucking phenomenal.

   5. ABArthur Brooks37:50

      I don't even know him and I love his work.

   6. CWChris Williamson37:51

      It's a sh-

   7. ABArthur Brooks37:52

      His, his work on jealousy?

   8. CWChris Williamson37:53

      Yeah. He's an-

   9. ABArthur Brooks37:54

      It's un- it's unbelievable. The, the evolutionary basis of the differences in jealousy between men and women?

   10. CWChris Williamson38:00

       What, do you know that well? Can you explain?

   11. ABArthur Brooks38:01

       Yeah, so the whole con- David B- I mean, he's, everything he writes is visionary.

   12. CWChris Williamson38:04

       He's a god.

   13. ABArthur Brooks38:05

       Yeah, he's fantastic. So the whole idea is that w- in the, in, in, in surveys you find that men are especially jealous of the concept of their mate having sex with another man. Women in heterosexual relationships are driven mad by the concept of their, or the vision of their mate saying, "I love you" to another woman, emotional versus physical jealousy. And that has a biological basis to it because in, in the ancestral environment before DNA tests and, you know, before evidence is abundant, you gotta know if you're a man that you're raising your own offspring. And if you're a woman, you have to know that your mate is not gonna run off and raise somebody else's offspring.

   14. CWChris Williamson38:44

       Mm-hmm.

   15. ABArthur Brooks38:45

       And so that's why you have these diff- differences, and this really explains a lot. So for example, um, one of the things that you find from this is that if, if a, if a man wants to be forgiven for infidelity, he should say, according to this theory, (laughs) right? I- I'm not advocating this because don't be unfaithful-

   16. CWChris Williamson39:03

       Mm-hmm.

   17. ABArthur Brooks39:04

       ... but to be forgiven for infidelity according to this theory, he should say, "Look, I mean, I didn't love her. I only love you. I don't love her at all, but you haven't slept with me in a long time and I have needs, and that was the whole thing." She'll take you back, according to that theory. Now, she is unfaithful. She should say, "It wasn't about the sex. It was disgusting, but he told me he loved me, and you haven't said that in a long time, and I need that." And he'll take you back. (sighs) A quick note, I partnered with Function because I wanted a smarter and more comprehensive way to understand what's happening inside of my body. Twice a year, Function run lab tests that monitor over 100 biomarkers, and then they've got a team of expert physicians that analyze the data and give you actionable advice to improve your health and lifespan. If you've been feeling a bit sluggish, then your testosterone levels might be the problem. They play a massive role in your energy and your performance, and being able to see them charted over the course of a year with actionable insights to actually improve them gives you a clear path to making your life better. So, if you have not been performing in the gym or the bedroom the way that you would like, this is an awesome way to work out what's happening inside of your body. Getting these lab tests done would usually cost thousands, but with Function, it is only $500, and right now you can get the exact same blood panels that I get and bypass their waitlist by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. That's functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. Yeah. See, David Buss's work is very-

   18. CWChris Williamson40:41

       Yeah.

   19. ABArthur Brooks40:41

       ... and he didn't, by the way, this is my practical application of this. He would, he, he is very-

   20. CWChris Williamson40:46

       No, he's, uh-

   21. ABArthur Brooks40:46

       He's gonna watch this and disown it completely and-

   22. CWChris Williamson40:48

       He loves, he loves every-

   23. ABArthur Brooks40:49

       ... he's gonna send me a

   24. CWChris Williamson40:49

       He loves everything that I do. He's my, he's my number one fan. Um, but-

   25. ABArthur Brooks40:53

       (laughs)

   26. CWChris Williamson40:53

       ... uh, one of the cool things that, uh, that he explained, sort of talking about, uh, you don't get to control the cascade quite, but you can, I suppose, reframe what you tell yourself it means-

   27. ABArthur Brooks41:06

       Right.

   28. CWChris Williamson41:06

       ... if that starts. Uh, this guy reached out to me after he read The Evolution of Desire and in it, David talks about, uh, an area of the brain that specifically gets turned on in men when men look at something that resembles anything sexual.

   29. ABArthur Brooks41:18

       Yeah.

   30. CWChris Williamson41:18

       A pair of rocks that look like bo-
6. 46:05 – 51:15

   Advice for Insecure Overachievers

   1. ABArthur Brooks46:05

   2. CWChris Williamson46:05

      Uh, what would be your advice to the insecure over-achievers out there? Get some of their dopamine, norepinephrine under control?

   3. ABArthur Brooks46:11

      The insecure over-achievers. So pe- in, in, in relationships?

   4. CWChris Williamson46:16

      Yeah, yeah.

   5. ABArthur Brooks46:17

      So t- give me a story.

   6. CWChris Williamson46:18

      Well, for instance, if you are someone that finds yourself, uh, ruminating more aggressively-

   7. ABArthur Brooks46:23

      Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson46:23

      ... uh, then y- y- you're really struggling to get that under control.

   9. ABArthur Brooks46:27

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson46:27

       You are, um... The serotonin has dropped. The rationality is out of the window.

   11. ABArthur Brooks46:32

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson46:33

       You find yourself moving through this at a pace that maybe your partner can't keep up with.

   13. ABArthur Brooks46:36

       Right.

   14. CWChris Williamson46:37

       Uh-

   15. ABArthur Brooks46:37

       You're scaring people off.

   16. CWChris Williamson46:38

       Yup.

   17. ABArthur Brooks46:39

       You're behaving in a weird way.

   18. CWChris Williamson46:40

       Mm-hmm.

   19. ABArthur Brooks46:40

       Knowledge is power on this. Knowledge is always power on these things. One of the things that we find is that, this is this whole literature on metacognition that suggests that when you move the experience of your emotions into your prefrontal cortex by consciously, like journaling, through, some people use therapy, through, m- uh, prayer, prayers of petition, um, through, uh, meditation, for example, medit- meditation techniques, mindfulness meditation techniques, they move the experience of very strong aversive emotions into the prefrontal cortex where you can manage them more effectively. One of the best ways to do this, by the way, is simple journaling of, of, of strong emotions (clears throat) and, and hard experiences. So this gets back to something you asked about a little bit earlier, which is anxiety, right? Anxiety. So you're an anxious person and what that means is you have an overactive adrenal system, you have an HPA axis that, you know, is kind of ƒ. And that's part of your success, by the way. I mean, it's like y- would you trade it away if you could? No.

   20. CWChris Williamson47:33

       I reali- I realized this a few years ago, no.

   21. ABArthur Brooks47:35

       Yeah. I mean, this is... And one of the reasons is your weaknesses are your strengths and your strengths are your weaknesses. And you can try to eliminate your weaknesses, but all you'll wind up doing is eliminating your own success and satisfaction in life. That's just the way it is. You better learn how to manage your weaknesses and embrace them and be thankful for them. That's the only... And that's the way you gotta live your life is the way that that works out. But it doesn't mean you don't go, they don't go unmanaged. So for something like anxiety, anxiety is unfocused fear. That's wha- that's what, that's the, uh, the best definition of anxiety. Fear in the ancestral environment was supposed to be episodic and intense and rare. You didn't feel fear that often. But when you did, man, it was all on. You heard a snap of a twig behind you, you'd take off running and climb a tree, whatever it happened to be. In the modern environment, fear is chronic and mild, and the reason is because there's nothing trying to chase us down and kill us. That's very rare. On the other hand, there's Twitter and, and which feels like it's stalking us in some sort... Or what X, it's social media, it's the modern environment, it's stressful, it's cars honking, it's whatever it is. And so just the limbic system is mildly da- the amygdala is sort of on, sending a weak signal to the hypothalamus and stimulating the pituitary gland a little bit and, and then asking the adrenal glands to kind of drip out cortisol so you're on. And that you're getting this epinephrine, so at two o'clock in the afternoon, that pit of the stomach feeling. And you know this feeling 'cause this is your life.

   22. CWChris Williamson49:05

       Mm-hmm.

   23. ABArthur Brooks49:06

       Right? (laughs)

   24. CWChris Williamson49:06

       Mm-hmm.

   25. ABArthur Brooks49:07

       So how do you deal with that? And the answer is not to avoid it. You go to a doctor and the doctor might say, "Take a benzodiazepine drug."... you know, take a little Xanax and you're gonna feel a little bit better, and that's true because that will mute the, the activity in the HPA axis. It'll, it'll di- ... It'll, it'll be i- it'll be inhibitory. A much better way is to lean into what it was supposed to be, which is fear. And so a good exercise for somebody who's anxious like you or me, I'm a super anxious person, is to, at the end of the day say, "Okay, five things are freaking me out, but they're kinda like ghosts. I'm not, I'm not focusing on them. I'm actually blocking out the real source of my anxiety, I'm just anxious." Number one, what actually is the source of my anxiety? What is the fear that that's based on? Make it real, write it down. What's the fear? Step two, what's the worst thing that can actually happen? Literally the worst thing that's actually gonna happen. Sometimes it's like, "I'm gonna die," but sometimes it's like, "The stock market goes to zero!" (laughs)

   26. CWChris Williamson50:08

       (laughs)

   27. ABArthur Brooks50:08

       Then what's the probability that that's gonna happen? We're smart people. What's the probability that worst case scenario's gonna happen? And then step four, what would I do if that happened? Write it down, 'cause you would do something, right? Okay, what am I really worried about? That thing, that thing, that thing, you know, it's like, ugh. It's cancer, right? What's the likelihood? Pretty low. If it happened, what would I do? I'd get treatment. I'd actually get treatment, right? And, and when you do that, you've turned your anxiety into fear and you'll shut it off. Why? Because you put it in its proper place.

   28. CWChris Williamson50:44

       You've given a direction.

   29. ABArthur Brooks50:45

       You've managed it. You've actually managed your limbic system so your m- limbic system is not managing you. Then go through the other four things and you'll sleep better, and part of the reason is because you've actually calm- ... You'll calm your HPA axis. Your, your adrenal system will actually ... And again, there's all kinds of other things to do like box breathing and all sorts of physiological things, but this is a good, good way to actually cope with this.

   30. CWChris Williamson51:07

       Mm.
7. 51:15 – 55:58

   How to Make Long-Distance Relationships Successful

   1. CWChris Williamson51:15

      Uh, y- you mentioned about some of the challenges of digital dating enabling-

   2. ABArthur Brooks51:19

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson51:19

      ... on the front end. You also said that getting to stage five, getting to kin-

   4. ABArthur Brooks51:25

      It's actually four, 'cause we went through four, but there's not a stage five. I counted wrong.

   5. CWChris Williamson51:28

      Oh, okay.

   6. ABArthur Brooks51:28

      Yeah, okay, right, yeah, yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson51:30

      Whatever. Whatever.

   8. ABArthur Brooks51:30

      Oxytocin is the, you know, the connection phase.

   9. CWChris Williamson51:33

      Yeah.

   10. ABArthur Brooks51:33

       Stage four, yeah, yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson51:34

       Uh, I was thinking about, um, relationships that had started to mature but are enabled by being long distance, you know, which-

   12. ABArthur Brooks51:42

       Right.

   13. CWChris Williamson51:42

       ... I, I imagine pen palling back and forth is-

   14. ABArthur Brooks51:44

       Right.

   15. CWChris Williamson51:45

       ... less common than somebody-

   16. ABArthur Brooks51:46

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson51:47

       ... who lives in L.A. and someone else who lives in Wisconsin and they're dating and they-

   18. ABArthur Brooks51:50

       Right.

   19. CWChris Williamson51:50

       ... text a lot and all the rest of it. But the eye-to-eye and skin-to-skin-

   20. ABArthur Brooks51:54

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson51:54

       ... is precisely what you said takes you-

   22. ABArthur Brooks51:56

       You'll crave the oxytocin, yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson51:58

       Yes. So d- does that suggest that long distance relationships need a different type of work, they need to compensate in different sorts of ways?

   24. ABArthur Brooks52:05

       Yeah. There ... It's very problematic, and a lot of my students are gonna be in long distance relationships because they're, you know, they'll, they'll form ... They'll pair ... Some of them will pair up in business school, and then one of 'em will work in San Francisco and one of 'em in London. And, and you know, it's eight hour time difference and they're not gonna see each other that often, but you know, it's okay because we'll see each other a couple of times a year. And I'm sorry, because you're gonna be in close proximity with other people and the neurochemical cascade's gonna happen and oxytocin can occur. So w- w- y- you know, respect biology. (laughs) And you know, I'm explaining this, so they're, they're like, "Mm."

   25. CWChris Williamson52:40

       (laughs)

   26. ABArthur Brooks52:40

       (laughs)

   27. CWChris Williamson52:44

       Yeah.

   28. ABArthur Brooks52:44

       And so that's one of the reasons that those long distance relationships usually don't work, is because you actually ... We're, we're not, we're not built in our ancestral state to be living in, uh, continents apart from each other. We're supposed to do eye contact and touch. I mean, it's so important that I can practically save a marriage just by, uh, having people understand that they need to get back on the oxytocin express, and the way to do that is two simple rules in every marriage, and this is how marriages fall apart, is they stop touching and they stop looking at each other in the eyes. And so the two rules for everybody who's married watching us and they want their marriage to be like it was, not like in the very beginning, 'cause that's insane, but they want, like, what it was in year four, like year three or something.

   29. CWChris Williamson53:29

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   30. ABArthur Brooks53:29

       Every time you're together you're touching, and every time you're talking you're making direct eye contact. Those are the two rules. Now there's gonna be more to it. Also don't be a jerk, and you know, and take out the trash, and don't ... And unload the dishwasher, and, and don't sleep with a coworker, and, and yada, yada, yada. But if you follow those two rules, the biology will be on your side instead of being on somebody else's side-
8. 55:58 – 1:06:58

   The Key to Staying in Love

   1. CWChris Williamson55:59

      You mentioned two parts, finding the right person, falling in love, et cetera, et cetera-

   2. ABArthur Brooks56:05

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson56:05

      ... staying in love.

   4. ABArthur Brooks56:05

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson56:06

      What about that?

   6. ABArthur Brooks56:07

      So th- that's really what we're talking about now, is the staying in love part, is actually remembering that you have a pair bond, and the pair bond requires that you don't make mistakes and you continue to cultivate, you continue to cultivate the oxytocin rela- mediated relationship. And so it's not making mistakes and doing things that will ... I mean, stupid mistakes, like, like getting into a different pair bond, obviously, but also not doing things that will pull you apart from that, from that person, not making decisions that get in the way of the relationship. And so that is your prominent relationship, is the most important thing, is the person on whom you will be gazing as you take your dying breath, and that's actually what you want, and that's really, really important. Now, religious couples have a real advantage on this, and that's because almost every major religion has a concept of marriage which is that marriage is your antenna to the divine. And so most married couples who are religious, one of the things that they believe is that when, when I love her, it's God's love for her coming through me, and vice versa.

   7. CWChris Williamson57:04

      Mm.

   8. ABArthur Brooks57:05

      And her love for me is God's love for me coming through her, and that's when ... And so, you know, w- when I'm counseling couples that are, that are, that are getting ready to get married in the church, for example, I'll say, "The most intimate thing that you're gonna do..." and they think I'm gonna talk about sex, mm-mm, it's praying together. That's literally the most intimate thing that a couple will ever do. And I know couples who are, you know, churchgoers, they'll go 50 years and never pray in front of each other 'cause it's too embarrassing. They'll have, like, six kids, but they won't pray in front of each other because that feels more intimate. So that's one of the basic maintenance things for ... Or if you're not religious, then, then meditating together, using some sort of an antenna to the metaphysical forces that you are feeling. And, and some people would say, who are atheistic, will say it's a simulacrum, that something is actually happening in the brain because of the neurochemistry. I happen to believe that there is a metaphysics to it, that there is a divine element to these types of things, but using those things, 'cause it's that important.

   9. CWChris Williamson58:06

      Best friend, best friending.

   10. ABArthur Brooks58:07

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson58:08

       Turning your partner into your best friend.

   12. ABArthur Brooks58:09

       Right. Not your only friend. Very important.

   13. CWChris Williamson58:11

       Uh, how can you tell if you're a compatible romantic partner, but not a compatible best friend?

   14. ABArthur Brooks58:19

       Because you don't get to the best friend stage.

   15. CWChris Williamson58:21

       I g- it's-

   16. ABArthur Brooks58:22

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson58:22

       ... you test, you test by finding out that it-

   18. ABArthur Brooks58:23

       Yeah, you-

   19. CWChris Williamson58:24

       ... it fails.

   20. ABArthur Brooks58:24

       And that's the reason that people will fall in love, and two years later hate each other. They'll fall in love, but they won't get to the best friend stage. They'll never get to companionate love-

   21. CWChris Williamson58:34

       Mm-hmm.

   22. ABArthur Brooks58:34

       ... and that's because all they had was attraction-

   23. CWChris Williamson58:37

       Passionate.

   24. ABArthur Brooks58:38

       They had the passion that came from the obsession, and that came from the bonding, and that ca- but they actually never got to friendship. And the reason was because they're not cut out to be friends. They don't have enough compatibility to, or, and, or complementarity to actually be good friends to each other. Or they're not cut out ... They're probably not good friends to anybody.

   25. CWChris Williamson58:55

       Is there any way, then, given that we're in this psychedelic, hormonal fugue state for between six and 24 months-

   26. ABArthur Brooks59:03

       A good way of putting it, yes (laughs) , that's really nice.

   27. CWChris Williamson59:05

       It's true.

   28. ABArthur Brooks59:06

       (laughs)

   29. CWChris Williamson59:06

       Uh, you're kind of insane for, uh, m-

   30. ABArthur Brooks59:10

       It's-
9. 1:06:58 – 1:10:13

   The Environmental Security Hypothesis

   1. ABArthur Brooks1:06:58

   2. CWChris Williamson1:06:58

      Have you looked at the environmental security hypothesis? Do you know this one?

   3. ABArthur Brooks1:07:02

      No, tell me.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:07:02

      This is fucking awesome. So, uh, women's pref- or males' preferred body size for women has, uh, fluctuated-

   5. ABArthur Brooks1:07:13

      Right.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:07:13

      ... across time.

   7. ABArthur Brooks1:07:14

      Right.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:07:14

      Uh, the waist-to-hip ratio I think remains at about .68.

   9. ABArthur Brooks1:07:18

      Yes.

   10. CWChris Williamson1:07:18

       Typically. It's, uh, uh, uh, go-

   11. ABArthur Brooks1:07:20

       It's, it's quite constant.

   12. CWChris Williamson1:07:21

       Got fuller, got, y- they have fulla figures, smaller figures, but the waist to hip has always remained the same.

   13. ABArthur Brooks1:07:26

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson1:07:26

       And, uh, the-... human behavioral ecology stuff that's going on at the moment, which is really fascinating how humans interact with their, with their local environment. Um, this study looked at when particular body sizes, not shapes, 'cause the shape remains the same, when particular body sizes are preferred, and it seemed like-

   15. ABArthur Brooks1:07:46

       Uh.

   16. CWChris Williamson1:07:47

       ... it seemed like during periods of an economic recession, bigger women-

   17. ABArthur Brooks1:07:50

       Yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson1:07:51

       ... were preferred, and during periods of, uh, economic prosperity, smaller women-

   19. ABArthur Brooks1:07:55

       Uh.

   20. CWChris Williamson1:07:55

       ... were, were preferred. So there was a study done on students, 'cause that's, uh, the only people you've got study to, and they did it in their canteen, and they would show images of bigger and thinner women to guys before they ate and after they ate, and before they ate, when they were hungrier, they preferred the bigger women, and after they ate when they were fuller, they preferred the thinner women. And the argument being-

   21. ABArthur Brooks1:08:16

       Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson1:08:17

       ... if you were in time of resource and certainty and you see a bigger woman, you think, "Oh, she'd survive a tough winter." And, uh, this seems to be borne out, uh, economically, across time. If you go back and you look at the trac- you can track it. Economy's good, thinner women.

   23. ABArthur Brooks1:08:33

       Yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson1:08:33

       Economy's bad, thicker women.

   25. ABArthur Brooks1:08:35

       Yeah. That's wha- that's the same phenomenon, by the way. Uh, and that you, you want to y- you're attracted by people who have resource abundance that have more than they need, that they can actually afford something that's scarce-

   26. CWChris Williamson1:08:47

       Mm-hmm.

   27. ABArthur Brooks1:08:47

       ... and a lot of something that's scarce. So that's the reason that guys will go to Miami Beach on spring break and rent a Ferrari and just like, "Vroom." The street and the fer- because you want women to think that that's your Ferrari because you're rich enough to have a car you don't actually need, showing that you have, uh, you have abundant resources.

   28. CWChris Williamson1:09:04

       My conspicuous consumption.

   29. ABArthur Brooks1:09:05

       Yeah, that's what, and that's the reason, you know, the fifth watch. You know, that's kinda what it, what it comes down to. I got, baby, I need more, I have more than I need.

   30. CWChris Williamson1:09:12

       It's a bottle of vodka so big that you couldn't drink it in two lifetimes-
10. 1:10:13 – 1:14:12

    Approaching Relationships Like a Business Project

    1. CWChris Williamson1:10:13

       You said this sort of a startup or founder mindset when it comes to building-

    2. ABArthur Brooks1:10:17

       Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:10:17

       ... relationships.

    4. ABArthur Brooks1:10:19

       Relationships.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:10:19

       Uh, how should people think about project managing the, the task of finding their future husband or wife, especially given that we are living in a world where people are more risk averse than ever before, slow life strategy, uh, less risk-taking behavior, less risky behavior endemic everywhere among young people?

    6. ABArthur Brooks1:10:35

       Yeah. So number one is finding people in real life. Number one is finding people in real life because what one, uh, there's really interesting new data out there that show that the, the instigation of the relationship, if it's mediated through technology is, makes it less stable to begin with. So there's a new paper out that, um, we can put it in the show notes when I find it.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:10:53

       Okay.

    8. ABArthur Brooks1:10:53

       I just wrote about it in this new book that I'm writing on, on meaning. Oh, and it's, it shows that marriages that actually start online... And by the way, 62% of relationships are starting online right now because it's crowded out. I mean, it's the VHS tapes of relationships that's crowding out Betamax. It's the, uh, uh, an inferior technology for actually finding people. That's what's available. So you approach somebody in a bar and they think you're a creep at this point. Anyway, the problem with that is that it leads to when relationships, even marriages are less stable and there's less attraction when they're, when it's actually mediated by that, the better relationships actually come when somebody sets you up, when you meet somebody through a mutual interest or through mutual people that you know and love. That's really what it comes down to. So people will ask me, it's like, "So where do I meet somebody?" And, and, uh, you go someplace where you might meet the kind of person that you might conceivably find attractive. So for example, "Were you raised in a religion?" "Yeah, but I don't practice it." "I don't care. Go to church, right? Go to the church where all the young people go to." "But I don't believe it." "I don't care. That's not the point. The point is you could, you could believe it. The point is you don't hate it."

Episode duration: 2:02:37