Modern WisdomYou Were Never Taught How to Be a Man - Dry Creek Dewayne (4K)
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,174 words- 0:00 – 3:45
Dewayne’s Work & Background
- CWChris Williamson
How would you describe what you do if you meet someone for the first time?
- DNDewayne Noel
Wow. Um, well, what the school does is I bring people out for a week at a time and teach horsemanship. Um, the basic fundamentals of working with horses and understanding horses, but that is more of a springboard for life. Um, I started out, we started out with a YouTube channel where I was just, just wanting to give some basic horsemanship tips and some things for young people who are wanting to get into wrangling or cowboying or packing, and, uh, and it took on a life of its own. And, uh, and we started getting a lot of questions, a lot of comments on the channel, it's like, "Hey, if y'all start a school, we'll come." You know? And so, it, it's just kind of grown from there. So it's, it's hard to say we teach horsemanship, but then we also try to help young people have a more, um, grounded, solid approach to life.
- CWChris Williamson
What career did you want to do when you were a kid?
- DNDewayne Noel
I wanted to cowboy, and that was it. You know, every little boy in this country at a certain age, they want to be a cowboy when they grow up. The only difference with me was I never outgrew it.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DNDewayne Noel
That's all I ever wanted to do. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Talk to me about your upbringing. What was childhood like?
- DNDewayne Noel
Uh, definitely not cowboy. Um, I had a very solid family, um, and my dad, my family is ... I'm the seventh generation of my family born in Central Kentucky. Um, my dad, my granddad, my great-granddad, and my mom's side of the family too. And my dad was a Baptist preacher, and so we moved a lot for his work, and, but I didn't grow up ... My opportunities for, you know, farm work, ranches, and stuff like that was when I visited my grandparents back in Kentucky. And I knew back then, this is, you know, what I wanted to do. It just, it took a while for me to be able to actually do it. Um, but I was raised in a, in a, you know, very close-knit, very solid, very country, patriarchal family. You know, just very old school Kentucky. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
What do the rest of your family think about having a rogue wrangler in it?
- DNDewayne Noel
I don't, I don't know. Um, the, uh ... I was different, I was a different man back when I was raising my children, um, and back as a young man. I was wound really tight, um.
- CWChris Williamson
What do you mean when you say that?
- DNDewayne Noel
I had a bad temper, and I was under a lot of stress for a lot of years, and so I wasn't the calm, laid back, easy-going fellow that, you know, people see today. And so I think in a ... My children are all grown, and I think, you know, in a lot of ways, they're still setting back, trying to, trying to, uh, compare the old me with the new me that, you know ... It's only been about five years that I found the, the place where I could just get some self-control and learn how to chill and, and, um, get a handle on things, you know? So I think in a lot of ways, my family are just, they're just sitting back, watching, and trying to justify the one, what they see now with what they knew for so many years.
- CWChris Williamson
What's the
- 3:45 – 9:15
How Dewayne Became a Cowboy
- CWChris Williamson
story of your initiation into this life?
- DNDewayne Noel
Um, you ... Into the cowboy life? I was newly married, and we had a baby, it was just an infant, and I was working. Uh, we were in a little town called Alpine, Tennessee, and there was a Berkline Furniture factory there that made recliners, and I was working in the shipping and, uh, was not happy. Uh, didn't like the job.
- CWChris Williamson
What age are you here?
- DNDewayne Noel
Oh, I was 26, um, and, uh, I was reading Western Horseman, and there was a ad in the back, in the classifieds about a elk hunting lodge in Idaho that was offering you could come out and if you would work for the summer for free, they would teach you packing. And, uh, and I just, I said, "You know what? I'm going to do it. I'm doing it. I'm taking the jump. I'm not spending the rest of my life working in a factory and sitting here and doing this. I'm going to go chase the dream that I've had since I was a child." And, uh, so my wife and our infant, she flew to, uh, Hawaii to stay with her dad, and I sold everything we had, which wasn't much, and, uh, I got a saddle and, and my gear and took a Greyhound bus to, uh, up into Idaho, and then wasn't nobody there to pick me up that was supposed to pick me up. So I hitchhiked from there into Challis, Idaho, and this was way before cell phones, so I found a pay phone and I called the ranch, and the manager of the ranch says, "I, I, I don't know who you are. I never heard anything about you. Uh, the owner is rafting the Colorado River through the Grand Canyon with his girlfriend, and he never told me you were coming." And, but he came and picked me up, and I stayed on there for the summer and, and I learned a bunch, and then, um, I left there and hitchhiked from Challis, Idaho to Cody, Wyoming. And when I got to Cody, I had like $9, and, uh, so I found a campground where they'd let me pitch my little one-man pup tent. It was $6 a night. I remember it 'cause ... And I stayed at that one because they had a-... shower house, and I'm like, "I'm not gonna become a scrubby, homeless person," you know? So I stayed there and I just started calling every ranch, every dude ranch, every outfit, every day, calling, calling, calling. Um, I ran out of money, and the lady who owned the, the, uh, that campground there, she told me, she said, uh, "My dad needs somebody to haul hay." So I went and helped him and he paid me $15 for hauling hay like this. Came back, another night stay, another supper. Next day, she said, "If you'll police the campground for cigarette butts, I'll give you a bowl of soup and a sandwich and another night's stay," so I did. And then the next day, one of the outfits called, called me back. I came in, sat down, and interviewed, and I threw my bedroll and everything into the back of their truck and went out and went to work.
- CWChris Williamson
And you're doing all of this with a infant?
- DNDewayne Noel
No, no, my-
- CWChris Williamson
But they're in Hawaii.
- DNDewayne Noel
They're in Hawaii. They're in Hawaii.
- CWChris Williamson
But you're still a part of this system now, so you're away from your wife, you're away from your first child.
- DNDewayne Noel
For several months, yeah. I don't recommend it.
- CWChris Williamson
Was that difficult?
- DNDewayne Noel
In a way, it was. In another way, it wasn't as difficult as it should've been.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DNDewayne Noel
Um, and-
- CWChris Williamson
Well, you've got this tension, right? You've got this tension between slowly moving toward a dream that you've had for a long time, this career aspiration, this fulfillment of a life purpose, and then also the desire to be a good father, a good husband. But you also are, you're making these sacrifices in order to create the future. It's a complex situation.
- DNDewayne Noel
My, my wife, and we're still married today, it's 34 years in March, okay?
- CWChris Williamson
Congratulations.
- DNDewayne Noel
Thank you. Um, but I'm six years older than she is, and we're totally different. And, uh, I had been on my own for a long time when we got married. And, uh, as happens in marriage, you know, we'd hit that two-year mark and the luster was gone. We weren't getting along very well, you know? So she wasn't, I don't think she was heartbroken at the separation for a while, you know, any more than I was. And, uh, so after I got settled, I had worked for the summer there, and then I wound up with another outfit, and after I got settled, she, I flew her and the baby out, and we'd had enough time apart for all the turmoil and the bubbling to settle down, and then we could start working on it again. Um, so it was, in, in one sense, it was difficult. In another sense, it was a bit of a relief, you know? That it shouldn't have been, it doesn't speak well to where I was in my character at the time.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- DNDewayne Noel
But, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Maybe that six-month break has enabled a 35-year marriage.
- DNDewayne Noel
Right. You, you need the... My wife has come to... I'm, I've traveled all over the world, and I've always been a very restless fellow. And there's been times where my wife has come to me and sat down and said, "Honey, I love you, but you gotta go."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DNDewayne Noel
"Go hunting, go visit a buddy, go do something, but you can't sit around and drive me crazy all day." So, you know, she knows, and she's, she's been very supportive over the years.
- 9:15 – 15:19
What Settled Dewayne Down?
- CWChris Williamson
What was the mindset shift? I'm interested to learn about old Dwayne and new Dwayne, and where that calming trajectory, wh- why that happened. What instigated it?
- DNDewayne Noel
Um, well, I'll just say I came, I came to a place in life where I just didn't like me anymore. I looked in the mirror and I'm like, "I will not spend the next 50 years with this guy like I have the last 50. I don't like me, nobody around likes me, um, I can't..." Um, we'll just, uh, it just, catalyst just came about, and I'm like, "I can't, I can't do this anymore." Um, I was... I had had a small heart attack, and I knew it was a heart attack. And I was at the point, I'm not kidding, I lay there in bed and I felt it come on, and, uh, I'm like, "I think I'm having a heart attack. Good. I don't have to fight this anymore. I'm not gonna wake my wife up." I went to sleep.
- CWChris Williamson
You were in bed next to your wife-
- DNDewayne Noel
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... having a heart attack?
- DNDewayne Noel
Yeah. And I went to sleep. I woke up next morning, I'm like, "Dang it."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DNDewayne Noel
"I'm still, I'm still here." (laughs) And so, and I, and I didn't tell her. And I went to the doctor, I had further heart problems and other problems, and I, I finally went to the doctor and they did an EKG, and they're like, "Yeah, you, you had a heart situation back on this..." And I'm, and it was just kinda just like, "I can't, I can't continue to live like this." You know? And my kids didn't like me. I wasn't abusive, you know-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- DNDewayne Noel
... I was never, but I just, I wasn't a very nice person. And, uh, I was just very on edge, very angry, very... And I finally... So I had to make some decisions. Um, what, what's making me like this? I need to get it out of my life. And there were people, including family, that I'm like, "Nope, y'all are gone." I stopped watching the news. I'm like, "Nope, y'all are gone." You know? Started changing my diet, started spending a lot of time out on the front porch just smoking cigars, letting the world go by, and slowly, over time, you know, got a handle on stuff. And, uh, went back to reading. You know, when I was a kid, I read heavily, you know? And, uh, got back, went back to reading poetry and Marcus Aurelius and stuff, and just kinda got some of my perspective back.
- CWChris Williamson
I think that's a hopeful message for young men that find themselves being angry and not in a place where they want to be.
- DNDewayne Noel
A- angry, there's no, there's no benefit to it. You know, it doesn't fix anything. Um, even when you're in a fight, and I was in law enforcement for a while, even when you're in a fight, if you get angry in the fight, yeah, maybe your adrenaline comes up, but you lose your head.... you know, you lose your strategy. Um, and, you know, anger, it just, it just turned out, I'm like, "This is not profitable and this is eating me up inside and I'm making stupid decisions, and this, this, this has just got to end."
- CWChris Williamson
You told me as we were talking outside about how horses can detect your emotional state, your heart rate, and if you enter into an environment with them-
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... they'll match you.
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
If you enter in all sympathetically aroused, presumably angry and frustrated, they're gonna be able to tell.
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
How did you manage to get through so many years of working with horses still being this angry guy?
- DNDewayne Noel
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
H- how, how important was learning about yourself through working with horses?
- DNDewayne Noel
H- the, the question is how, how did I not get killed? (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
By a horse?
- DNDewayne Noel
How did horses not kill me? Um, it was always a fight. I mean, I loved horses, but there was always, it wasn't ever what I wanted it to be, and I never really realized, um, for the longest time, and then there's, there's, I'm just gonna g- There's a horseman o- out there, he doesn't know me, okay? And so I'm not... Um, his name's Buck Brannaman, and he's been my, my biggest influence in the horse world, okay? Um, and so a lot of stuff I say s- y- when it comes to the horse world, you go, "Man, Dwayne, that sounds really smart." It's not mine. I'm not taking credit for it, okay? Um, but I learnt from him that your horse is just a mirror of you. They're just a reflection of you, and so any problem that you're having with your horse is just a reflection of a problem that you have inside. And when I started getting that and I started understanding that, and I started taking that to heart, um, being, l- learning to calm myself for the horse, you know, uh, so I could accomplish something with the horse, uh, which I should have had enough sense when I was young to do that for my wife or for my kids, you know? But, um...
- CWChris Williamson
Sometimes you need a horse to teach you what a human can't.
- DNDewayne Noel
You know, Mark Twain said that youth is wasted on the young, so, um, but when I started and it started working... You know, there's times I've gone out to work a horse and I was like, "Man, I just, I'm not in a good place today." And I've sat down in a chair outside the pen looking at the horse, lit up a cigar, smoked the cigar looking at the horse. Cigar's done, light up another cigar. Maybe, maybe-
- CWChris Williamson
Still not ready.
- DNDewayne Noel
... maybe it was a pipe, you know, but another one, sat there, and then go home.
- CWChris Williamson
Just wasn't ready that day.
- DNDewayne Noel
Just, I wasn't, and it's like, "Did I accomplish anything today?" No, but I didn't wreck anything today and that's a, sometimes that's a victory. Sometimes the biggest victory is, you know, I didn't make a mess today. It was a good day, and I finally had to start figuring that out.
- 15:19 – 21:38
The Beauty of Mundane Successes
- DNDewayne Noel
- CWChris Williamson
I've been thinking a lot recently about mundane successes, these sort of small personal victories that you do in private. There's no fanfare. There's no audience. No one's even going to applaud you. No one's gonna give you a pat on the back. Like, how boring of a success to say, "I didn't mess up another horse's day today." Like, there, there is, you know, few lower, um, magnificent successes that you could do. And yet, I think we need language around how that is something that's important, that is a victory that you should be able to say at the end of the day when you look yourself in the mirror, "Hey, you were gentle with that person when you were frustrated."
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
This person came up to you-
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... and you were all agitated and you chose to put civility first. Like, that's something... And no one's gonna give you a pat on the back for being modestly polite and civilized.
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Right? I just, I really, it's cool that you say that. I really think that more language around being gentle with yourself and appreciating when you have these small, un-magnificent victories is, is probably something good.
- DNDewayne Noel
Well, if, if you look at it, you know, like in math, you know, you study your negative numbers and your positive numbers in math. Okay, so you've got a chart, and let's start to my left you've got negative five, negative four, negative three, negative two, negative one, zero, one, two, three, four, five, and in life you're at negative five. You know, and people tend to think, and sometimes we tend to think until I'm at two, I didn't accomplish anything. But, you know, getting from a negative five to a negative four, that's a victory. And, uh, and then so we just-
- CWChris Williamson
Or avoiding going from a negative four to a negative five.
- DNDewayne Noel
Yes. Just staying at a negative five, we didn't go to negative six, that's a victory, you know? Um, y- you know, when I was young, come home from work, "How was, how was your day today, honey?" "I didn't, I didn't get in a fight, so it was a good day," (laughs) you know? And, but that is a victory. Um, it's a... Y- you know, I, I study and, and I, well, you can name your podcast, you know, Wisdom. Wisdom is not, in my studies I'm starting to see this, wisdom is predominant, predominantly not something that you do. If you study the Book of Proverbs in the Bible, okay, if you study Meditations by Marcus Aurelius and you study these wisdom writings, there's much more of the wisdom writings that are telling you things not to do than there are telling you, "You need to do this to be wise." But more of it is, "If you're wise, you won't do this." And so, like what we're talking here, a lot of, a lot of victories is just, "I didn't do that today."
- CWChris Williamson
There's an idea from mathematics called never multiply by zero. So, we can have two million multiplied by 47, multiplied by 2.1, multiplied by 20,000. Multiplied by zero is zero.
- DNDewayne Noel
Is zero.
- CWChris Williamson
So, if you spend all of your time working on your health and avoiding seed oils and eating only grass-fed organic meat, but one day decide to drive your car without a seatbelt on, that's multiplying by zero-
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... if you get into a wreck.
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
And so much of life, I think, is avoiding pitfalls, not expediting successes, because the pitfalls can kick you out of the game permanently-
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... or they can do things that are ... they're so catastrophic they take much longer to come back from. Uh, and this is, in some ways, a, an excuse for being averse to risk-
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... but I think it's just being clever about risk and knowing where you can take risks that have limited downside-
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... not unlimited downside.
- DNDewayne Noel
Right. Well, you know, we work a lot with horses, of course, and, and we've gotten some horses in this year. They, they weren't ours. Like, my son had bought a horse last year, and the horse was ... If you knew what you were doing, you could ride the horse, but the horse was not a broke horse. And he didn't have him for very long, and then he deployed overseas. He's in the military. So we brought him to our place. And so, you know, there's all these things th- and, uh, the two young men that were working with me, it's like, "Okay, don't move fast. Don't jump. You know, don't ... Let's do this."
- CWChris Williamson
Don't scare him.
- DNDewayne Noel
"Let's be calm." You know, because they're a prey animal. So there's all this stuff that we work with, you know, and, and so, uh, the young man that rode he went out and rode him, and, uh, and it w- he didn't do anything, like ... But it was just he reached in his saddle bag and pulled out one of these water bottles, and it crinkled. And, uh, and that horse, uh, he just jumped out of his skin. I mean, it didn't turn into a wreck, but it was just, like, you spend all of this time moving easy around the horse, working with him real easy and slow, you know, slow the saddle, cinching him up nice and slow, cinch them by threes, and moving all nice and easy, and then just one thing, crinkling a water bottle, and it's ... You just multiplied by zero.
- CWChris Williamson
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- 21:38 – 29:30
The Main Thing Humans Get Wrong
- CWChris Williamson
What have you learned about humans from working with horses?
- DNDewayne Noel
Humans don't know how to communicate. Communication is our biggest weakness. Um, that's not, like, the number ... But that's something that lately this is, this has been just really hammered home to me working with horses and working with humans. Um, and communication is a much more complex issue than, than I think many of us give it credit for. Um, so you take, you take a horse and a human, a relationship with a horse and human, all right? For that to work, there has to be communication. Well, we have a couple of problems here. First off, the horse doesn't speak English, and we don't speak Horse. All right? But as humans, we insist that the horse comes into our world, but we're too arrogant or too lazy or a combination of both to learn to speak Horse. And horse's language is not verbal. It's all movement. It's all body language. It's all this. And so that is a problem. But another problem is, is us and the horse, we are, um, we're predator animals. All right? We are ... The human is ... We're predators. All right? We're designed to eat meat. Our eyes are side by side on the front of our face. We see one picture, and we're designed to see what we want and go get it. The horse is a prey animal. They are the animal that everything that eats meat wants to eat. And so they have a complete different instinct. Their instinct is, "Everything wants to eat me." You know? We, we wa- We wake up of a morning, and we say, you know, "Uh, I wanna be a trophy husband." You know, that's my-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DNDewayne Noel
... that's my goal. I read it. Okay, uh, w- what do I wanna go get today? The horse wakes up and says, "I don't wanna get eaten today." Two totally different instinct. All right? So to be able to build a communication with a horse, we have to move into their world and learn to speak but learn to think how they think. Well, I mean, we can say men and women are the same thing. You know, but women are different from men. They have a different way of thinking. And like I said, my wife and I've been married almost 34 years, and even today there's things I say, and she absolutely ... What she heard is not what I said, you know? And so I have to, I have to ... A- and vice versa.... you know, sort of communication, and you cannot have 34 years of relationship with one person if there's no communication.
- CWChris Williamson
It's interesting, the fact that when you're around a horse, you have this almost like an external barometer or thermometer for you and what's going on.
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
So I mentioned to you that I'd spent a little bit of time with horses recently. So I rode my first horse-
- DNDewayne Noel
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... out here in Texas, and that was fun, and then I went and did equine therapy. Uh, so that was caring for a horse and-
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... and, um, treating its hooves and doing all the rest of the stuff, and, uh, I'd... Honestly, in retrospect, one of the most embarrassing inner situations with this horse. So first off, these things are big.
- DNDewayne Noel
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
That you don't realize, unless you're around horses, just how big they are, and they're kind of scary because there's a lot of them, and they're just muscle.
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
So, you know, onstage bodybuilder prep level machine.
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
So anyway, we're getting used to one of these horses, and we're brushing her, and she's super chill, really, really relaxed, and then they said, "Okay, so we're gonna give you this tool, and this tool is what you can use to clean out the hooves."
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
"And this horse will know what's happening when you bring the tool up."
- DNDewayne Noel
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"Uh, but you need to make it feel sufficiently comfortable so that it will raise its foot up for you. Need to be careful about where it puts its foot back down-"
- DNDewayne Noel
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"... because it..." I had Crocs on, which was not a good idea. Anyway, so you sort of put your hand firmly upper hind leg, slide it down, little pinch at the ankle-
- DNDewayne Noel
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... little pull, do this. So, so you need to feel relaxed as you walk up to the horse. You need to imagine that the horse is going to do this. You need to make it comfortable for it. It needs to be comfortable with you, so on and so forth. And I remember walking up to the horse and thinking, "If this horse doesn't like me, that's a comment on me."
- DNDewayne Noel
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"I really want this horse to like me."
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
And my self-worth had immediately become outsourced to whether or not this horse I met 10 minutes ago was gonna lift its hoof up for five seconds so that I could move a little bit of dirt out of it.
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- 29:30 – 38:08
Learning Important Lessons From Horses
- CWChris Williamson
a particular horse that you have learned a lot from in your life? Is there a few, uh, keystone horses that you had relationships with that taught you an awful lot?
- DNDewayne Noel
Um, there are. There, there's- there are several. Um... We... So I was riding for an outfit in Alaska, guiding, and they brought in a- a mare, and, uh, she was a retired... The best I could understand, she was a retired barrel-racing horse from here in Texas, and so when I signed on, they assigned her to me because nobody else. We couldn't put guests on her. None of the other wranglers wanted to ride her because her, her go-to was run-If something disturbed her, her head came up and it's run, just run. That, that’s my answer to escape, to just run. And, it wasn't something that I could physically fight and stop. Um, and so that horse really made me step outside of the thought process of physically controlling something that has a mental/emotional issue, and getting in her head and figuring out what can I do if the problem is mentally or emotionally, what can I do to get in to her head and get into her emotions and fix that for her? And so, what I did, and it's so simple, it, you know, probably wouldn't even make sense to a lot of folks, but while we were sitting there and while she was calm, sitting there at the ranch waiting for others to get on their horses, I would just come in with the lightest little pressure and get her to tip her nose. Not pull her nose in, just give a signal, "Hey, tip your nose." So she'd tip her nose, and we'd just do that and just do that. And then when we'd get out on the trail and she started getting anxious about something and her head would come up, I would just default to that. And so she would find something that she was secure, the signal, and it would, she would calm down, and she would calm down. And working with that mare for the summer, um, I'm, I made huge strides with myself in stepping outside of the norm of trying to physically control something that isn't ideal.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I mentioned that I had, uh, uh, ridden a horse for the first time in Texas.
- DNDewayne Noel
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And they gave me whatever the leader of the group is for the horse, whatever that's called, um, and I was right far at the back.
- DNDewayne Noel
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And this horse was eating, and the lady that was guiding the group said, "Just give him a little pull, and he'll come along." I gave him a little pull and he didn't move. They, I mean, it is absurd to explain how strong these-
- DNDewayne Noel
Oh, I know.
- CWChris Williamson
... things' necks are.
- DNDewayne Noel
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And I'm like, "I don't think he, doesn't want, doesn't wanna come." She's like, "No, no, just take a little bit more, a little bit more." I'm like a, I'm a pretty strong guy, so I was like, "Right, okay. I'll give it a big pull." Didn't move. I'm like, and by this time, they're 100 yards away.
- DNDewayne Noel
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm like, "He's still, he doesn't wanna, doesn't seem like he want..." She said, "No, like a really big pull." So I went mixed grip, like you do on a deadlift-
- DNDewayne Noel
Yeah. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... set my feet into the stirrups, I'm like, (grunting) like one rep max this horse's head up, and finally he got up, and, uh, that was absolutely not the most efficient way to get him to do that thing. There would've been a much better way-
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... than me.
- DNDewayne Noel
Right. Well, so your average horse, your average quarter horse size horse, you know, is gonna weigh between 800 and 1100 pounds, okay? Now, what I teach folks is I don't want his body, okay? I want his mind. Now, if I physically, like you just went through, if I physically get his body to do what I want, but I don't have his mind, as soon as he gets a chance, he's gonna go back again. But if I ignore the body, and I get the mind, if I have the mind, I have the body. So in a situation like that, what I do is I, I don't pull his head up, okay? I take the reins and I bounce that bit that's in his mouth. I, I bounce it pretty sharp. And he decides in his mind, "I don't like that. I think I will p- I think I will pick my head up." And it's like, "I'm not gonna pick your head up. That's what you have a neck for."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DNDewayne Noel
Okay? You have that neck. That's what it's for. I'm not picking your head up. I'm going to suggest to you that you decide it's in your best interest for you to pick your head up." And we go for the mind. And h- how much in life, you know, y- you've got all these folks working for you here, and you have to, you can't physically browbeat, and nag, and threaten.
- CWChris Williamson
I've tried.
- DNDewayne Noel
You try it. Does it work?
- CWChris Williamson
No.
- DNDewayne Noel
No?
- CWChris Williamson
No. No.
- DNDewayne Noel
No.
- CWChris Williamson
They're belligerent, all of 'em.
- DNDewayne Noel
Yeah, I lear- I've already heard stories.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Uh-huh.
- DNDewayne Noel
It's just, yeah.
- 38:08 – 43:20
Dewayne’s Close Shaves With Death
- DNDewayne Noel
- CWChris Williamson
Plates and screws in the neck?
- DNDewayne Noel
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
But I've heard you say that not most of those were actually from horsing accidents, but you were in a plane crash, a car crash, and you rolled a motor home off a hill?
- DNDewayne Noel
I was a passenger off a mountain in Alaska.
- CWChris Williamson
I need to hear those stories, please.
- DNDewayne Noel
(laughs) We, I spent a winter in Fort Yukon, which is above the Arctic Circle in Alaska, staying with a fella. And, uh, I had a little 180, a little Cessna 180 Bushcraft. I think it was a 180. And we were flying out, and it was dead of winter, and it was, like, 30 below zero. And in the back of that plane, we had, like, a 100-pound propane tank, a transmission out of a van, some spare tires. And, uh, so we're flying back south to Fairbanks, and when we landed in, as we're touching down in Fairbanks, we had a crosswind, and so you kinda tilt the plane as you're landing into that crosswind. And so as we touch down, and I'm sitting up on the co-pilot, on the passenger side, I see the landing gear go run, the wheel and everything go rolling off across the tundra. And so I reach over and I'm like, "Hey, i- is that supposed to..." and then that strut came down and hit, and we flipped and ground looped and, and carried on on the runway.
- CWChris Williamson
With all of this washing machine s-
- DNDewayne Noel
Yeah, all, all in the back.
- CWChris Williamson
... ingredients inside, ding, ding, ding, bing, bing, bing?
- DNDewayne Noel
Oh, yeah. Th- there was a transmission out of a, out of a half-ton Chevy van and a 100-pound bottle, propane bottle and, um-
- CWChris Williamson
Just flying around?
- DNDewayne Noel
Uh, yeah, it didn't hit us, um, which is good. Um, but we stood out on that... 'Course I was wearing cowboy boots, so we're standing out on the runway in Fairbanks waiting for FAA to come out, and it's 30 below zero and, and they come out and inspected. Then we picked up the wing, a bunch of us, and pushed the plane off the runways, and then I had to catch two more flights that day to get back home. So yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
What about the motor home?
- DNDewayne Noel
Motor home, I was a passenger in the back, and we were coming down narrow road off the mountain, and, uh, um, the lady that was driving, there were a couple of teenagers in the seat right here, and they were fussing and bickering, and so she turned around to tell them to stop fussing, "Hey, y'all stop fussing," and they just drove right off. So we went down, I don't know how far down we went, but we slid down and hit and landed up against a bunch of trees down there.
- CWChris Williamson
No rolling?
- DNDewayne Noel
No, it didn't roll.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- DNDewayne Noel
No. Yeah. So, you, just, just life. And then, you know, a lot of bucked off, been bucked off a lot, just a lot of-
- CWChris Williamson
Bumps and bruises and-
- DNDewayne Noel
Yeah, and, you know-
- CWChris Williamson
... fractures and breaks?
- DNDewayne Noel
... la- landing in places and, and so it's just, it was accumulation of life, and then I was in, I was in the police academy, uh, and we were studying Brazilian jujitsu, and I was doing a backwards tactical roll, and something popped in my neck. And I didn't say anything. And so then we went on a big run, and this run was pretty... we'd run for about a mile, and then without... and then we'd stop and drop and do burpees and bicycles and then jump up and run some more. And by the time we got back to academy, my heart rate wouldn't go down. It... and then I had this weird feeling of, like an electrical net in my body. And, uh, my heart rate would not go down. So finally they put me in a ambulance and took me to the hospital, and I was, like, that far away from severing my spinal cord. Um, and, but it ha- it was already bad, way worse than I... I had no idea, and that tactical, backwards tactical roll had just, had just, um, brought it to the edge.
- CWChris Williamson
So maybe an odd blessing in some ways that it warned you, and that didn't occur when you got bucked off a horse.
- DNDewayne Noel
Right, right. And I don't ride bucking horses anymore. I mean, I say that, you never know. A horse is always a horse is a horse. But after so many years, I can pretty well tell when one is a little hanky and I'm like, "I don't have anything to prove anymore."... I'm not riding that horse.
- CWChris Williamson
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- 43:20 – 50:57
The Danger of Being Out of Balance
- CWChris Williamson
You talk a lot about balance, the dangers of being out of balance.
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Explain that to me.
- DNDewayne Noel
Well, (sighs) let's take, let's, let's take any a- okay, raising children. All right? Um, I like to say that raising children is like holding a wet bar of soap. If you squeeze it too tight, it squeezes out, it squirts out of your hands. If you don't hold it tight enough, it slides out of your hands. You know, raising children, you gotta be balanced. There has to be discipline. We as human beings need discipline in our life. But there has to be love and grace and understanding. And so, a lot of children who grow up with issues from being raised, you know, those issues are because their parents are out of balance one way or another. Marriage, if you got problems in your marriage, it's usually somebody's out of balance. You know, they're, they're too distant, or they're too clingy. You know, they're too demanding, or they're too permissive. They don't have personal boundaries. It's just out of balance. Um, I think ... oh, heck, I'm gonna do it. What are they gonna do to me? Okay. Um, I don't like the trend in this circle, men's motivation circle. I don't like the hustle culture as is being brought out and taught today. I don't agree with it, 'cause I think it's out of balance. I think young men need to know that, hey, it's okay for you to sit down and to read and have a cigar and to chill and to think, 'cause I guarantee, if you're in the weight room, um, pumping out all these reps and running on the machine, and then you're going into the cubicle, and you flip open the computer, and y- you're not thinking. You're learning, you're taking in, but you're not meditating on stuff, and you're not, you're not thinking. But that can be taken so far that young men are made to feel guilty for just sitting down and thinking and relaxing, and I understand that there was a tendency in this country, we had a lot of young men that were not raised with dads. They weren't raised to work, you know, and so that it's setting on the couch, playing the stupid Xbox, you know, not growing up learning to work, so that pendulum went too far this way. So now you've got guys who, in order to counteract that, they swung the pendulum too far this way. And a balanced man needs to be somewhere in the middle. He needs to be able to work, to do what needs to be done, to improve himself, and he also needs to sit around by the fire in the backyard and have a cigar and read some Kipling and just stay balanced. There needs to be balance.
- CWChris Williamson
I wrote an essay about that-
- DNDewayne Noel
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... this week.
- DNDewayne Noel
Did you?
- CWChris Williamson
Would you mind if I read it to you?
- DNDewayne Noel
Absolutely not.
- CWChris Williamson
"I think type A people have a type B problem, and type B people have a type A problem. Insecure overachievers need to learn how to chill out and relax, and lazy people need to learn how to work harder and be disciplined. Given that you subscribe to me, I'm going to guess you're probably type A, some version of a walking anxiety disorder harnessed for productivity, as Andrew Wilkinson says. Here's the thing you may have already realized. Type A people with a type B problem get very little sympathy, because a miserable but outwardly successful person always appears to be in a much more preferential position than the content being lazy but on the verge of being bankrupt person. The problems of opportunity will always get less sympathy than ones of scarcity. One feels like a choice, the other like a limitation. One is a bourgeois luxury, the other a sym- systemic imposition. 'I need someone to teach me how to be disciplined and work harder' feels noble and upward aiming and charitable. 'I need someone to teach me how to switch off and relax' feels dopaminergic and addicted and transactional and opulent. Every underdog movie ever has a training montage of someone working their life out by working harder. None included a guy learning how to log out of Slack at 6:00 PM or finally enjoy a beach holiday. So yes, type A people may have objectively better lives, but subjectively, they're ravaged by the sense that they've never done enough. They wake up every morning feeling as if they've already fallen behind, and only if they dominate their entire day flawlessly will they have dragged themselves back up to some minimum level of acceptable output, which means they can go to sleep that night without feeling like they've wasted it. Congratulations, you might be very successful, but you might also be very miserable. 'Just work harder, bro' advice reliably makes everyone more successful in the only way that they can be judged, outwardly. There are very few issues in life which can't be solved by just working harder, so everybody treats it like a panacea and not a purpose-built tool."And on average, maybe more people do need to hear David Goggins shouting in their face to go harder rather than Eckhart Tolle whispering in their ear that they are already enough. But for a certain, perhaps minority cohort of people, they actually need to hear the opposite message. We need a parasympathetic Goggins who's going to carry the TV remote and the cigars. #RestHarderThanMe. Type B problems are just as tough as type A ones, but they require a much less sexy solution: peace. One that you can't achieve by just working harder.
- DNDewayne Noel
I agree 100%. I g- I have guys come into the school, and they're like, they're just ... I'm like ... I don't say anything, it's not my business, but I'm like, "You're gonna die young."
- CWChris Williamson
Tightly wound?
- DNDewayne Noel
Just tightly wound, and it's never enough. It's never enough. I'm like, when is it enough? What is enough? You know, I've been thinking last couple weeks, I'm like, you know the saying is, "Just keep the main thing the main thing." But I think where we crash and burn is how we define the main thing. You know? And it's ... I see myself in a very small, tiny way, infinitesimal way. I see myself as the anti-David Goggins. I see myself as a guy that's like, there's places where his message is needed. I'm not knocking the guy, okay? There are places where his message is needed, but his message is not needed for everybody. Okay? Um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna probably step over a line here, and you can edit out anything you want, all right? I'm really bothered by these guys who are financial gurus who will fire you if you don't have a six-pack. There's a problem. There's a main thing, staying-the-main-thing problem with that viewpoint on life. Um, and I want to see, I want to see men that I'm, for whatever reason, whatever we brought in to influence, I want to see them find balance. I don't wanna see them find money. I don't wanna see them find six-packs. If that, if that is part of the result of it, fine, okay? But I want them to find balance, and I want them to find that place inside where they're like, "My main thing is my main thing, and it's enough."
- 50:57 – 55:20
Men Aren’t Born to Make Money
- CWChris Williamson
I've heard you say that a good man is born to serve, not born to make money.
- DNDewayne Noel
Absolutely.
- CWChris Williamson
What's that mean to you?
- DNDewayne Noel
W- Well, if, if I make money, and I, and I've heard all the excuses because there's guys who have a problem with me saying that, all right? Um, but if I make money, I make money for me. Now, I've got, you know, my wife definitely benefits from it, and you know, my children, although they're grown, they benefit from it. But ultimately in the end, uh, if, if I'm, pour all my life into making money, that's for me, you know? But if I, if I pour my life into as many people as is fitting, and I don't know ... Um, their life is better for me having come through. I ultimately, I want ... And I'll never know in some tiny way, I would... What means the most to me is that when you leave here today, in some small way, your life is better for us having sat down and talked. That means, that means more. Um, and, uh, it ... And so we're, you know ... I, I think we are. I think a real man is born to serve, and serve means provide for those that are in your sphere of you to provide for. Uh, it means to protect. It means to encourage. It means to teach and to train. Uh, and sometimes it means to step back and let them hit the wall. Sometimes the best service you can do for somebody is to, when it's all done, walk up and look down and say, "Did that hurt?" You know, that's, that's what they needed. Uh, but we won't do that because it makes us look bad, and even in our service to others, we do it for ulterior motives, you know? But, but yes, um, I believe that very strongly. I believe, I believe if you spend your whole life to yourself, for yourself, you have no purpose of being here. This, this planet is not in any way better for you having been here. Uh-
- CWChris Williamson
Is that what a good man is to you?
- DNDewayne Noel
That's what a good man is to me. When, when I, when my wife and I ... And we've moved. We've lived all over, but we've ... It's been a thing of ours. When we leave, we try to leave the house in some way better than when we found it, and that's how I approach life. Is that when people come across my path, I try to leave their life a little better than when I found it. And you know what? That may be just looking at that poor tired lady checking out at Walmart with the sore feet and the, the glazed over eyes, and looking her in the eye and saying, "How are you doing today?" It don't take much, you know? But it's like, I guarantee in some small way, her life was a little better when I passed through that Walmart line than it was before I got there. Uh, and yeah. I think that's a good man. A good man is a man who can protect and who can provide and who can serve, who can comfort, who can reprimand, who can discipline, whatever's necessary to make the world a little better because he passed through.
- CWChris Williamson
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- 55:20 – 1:05:40
How Emotional Should Men Be?
- CWChris Williamson
What do you think about the balance when it comes, for men, between, uh, strength and softness? Uh, sort of, um, rationality, emotionality, uh, rigidity, vulnerability? I think that's a balance that a lot of men struggle with. I still think that the conversation around emotions, around being open, whether it's with your friends or a partner or even yourself. Uh, I mean, you- you literally denied yourself going to the doctor for a heart attack. Like, the male ability to deny that things are wrong, whether they're physical or emotional, is like a reality distorting power that we all have.
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, how do you come to think about that balance between the- the- the hardness and the softness in men?
- DNDewayne Noel
I'm still old school. Um, I'm still very old school. Um, now there comes a point where it can be debilit- debilitating to those around me, okay? Um, if I bottle everything up inside so that I get to the point that I am toxic or debilitating to those around me, then I need to get some help. But as long as I'm not, I don't need to add more burden for them to carry. That's- that's just me.
- CWChris Williamson
Can you be a bit more specific about what that- what that is, how it- how that shows up for you?
- DNDewayne Noel
Um... M- my wife has- has been encouraging me for a while now, for me to go and talk to somebody. Just there's years and years and years of... I mean, there were a lot of rough years there. Um, but I'm like, "I can't- I can't do that." You know? I mean, the guy, I know the guy gets paid to sit there, and, uh, but it's not... It's just not necessary, you know? Um, I'm still of... You know, I'm still old enough, and I- I'm of the- I'm of the school, it's like, just- just deal with it.
- CWChris Williamson
Suck it up.
- DNDewayne Noel
Suck it up. You know? I broke three ribs one time in a barn saddling horses, horse threw a fit. Took eight aspirin and got on that horse and did a four-hour ride. 'Cause I had a job to do. It's my job. Now, I know... Let's- let's go back to balance, okay?
- CWChris Williamson
I was about to mention that.
- DNDewayne Noel
I understand. I'm with you 100%. But at the same time, your balance and my balance and his balance are different. Um, and so I think- I think a man has to find his own balance. Um, and the- and I... You're gonna get s- (laughs) so many messages on here disagree with this. Um, but I- I think that this thought of men's mental health, emotional health, go get help, go... I'm not saying it's bad, I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm not saying it's out of place, but I think like everything else, I think it could be taken to the point that men just become weak. And brother, let me tell you, in this day and age, we don't need more weak men. Um, now, when your- when your internal battles come to the point that you need help because they have weakened you, then get help, you know? But I think everybody's balance is different, and I fear there was a problem for years on this side, but I fear just like everything else, with that subject being pushed the way it is, we're gonna get out of balance on the other side. And it's like, and everybody needs therapy for everything.
- CWChris Williamson
This is the nuance, I think, around what we were talking about type A problems-
- DNDewayne Noel
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... type B problems.
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Because it's easy to just take that as a one single meal on a plate as opposed to multiple different pieces-
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... or a onesie-
- DNDewayne Noel
Right, right.
- CWChris Williamson
... that you put on as opposed to an outfit that's piecemeal and- and put together.
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
So there's a- a British writer called Matthew Syed who's coming on the show soon, and the interesting thing about tennis, as a sports reporter, is that you had three phenomenal world champions all at the same time.
- DNDewayne Noel
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
You had Nadal, you had, uh, Djokovic, and you had Federer. And he used to go to Wimbledon, and he would see how they were warming up, and each had a different approach.... so he'd go and see Nadal, and he's just raw aggression. His top's off and he's hitting the ball-
- DNDewayne Noel
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... as hard as he could, and he's sort of just fury. And then he'd go and see Djokovic, and he's like a robot. And this guy's precise, precision, rationality. Then he'd go and see Federer and he's playing trick shots. He's laughing, and he's having fun-
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... and he's sort of flirting with the ball girls-
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... and stuff like that. And each of these guys have won titles while all of them have been playing, and they've traded places, some on this court, some on a different type of surface, et cetera. But if you were to look at any of them and say, "In order for me to be a world champion, I must be..." Okay, well, which one? Because all of them are world champions.
- DNDewayne Noel
Yes.
- 1:05:40 – 1:16:47
Having a Better Relationship With Yourself
- CWChris Williamson
really interested in this blend that you have of real introspection and, uh, accepting of your own flaws and, and faults with the old school mentality of pick up a, a weight and carry it.
- DNDewayne Noel
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
I think one of the things that men that want to achieve things in their life struggle with a lot is being kind to themselves when they fall short, even if they tried their best.
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
They did everything that they could-
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... reality didn't deliver to them the thing that they wanted-
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... the outcome.
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
How have you learned to have a better relationship with yourself, the voice inside of your head to be, to be kinder if things go badly?You're smiling. (laughs)
- DNDewayne Noel
I like me. I like me. Um, I would buy me a drink. I look at me now, and I, and I see all the warts, okay, I see all the negatives more than anybody else does, I see the positives, and over the whole balance of stuff, I like me. And I can give myself the same grace. If you and I were friends, I can give myself the same grace I can give you, because I like me. I like me in spite of my understanding and the reality of my weaknesses and my warts and my scars and everything, but, you know, all in all, I'm a pretty good dude. And, uh... Man, you, you gotta get to that point. Outside of arrogance, arrogance is pride mixed with ignorance. All right? That, that's the definition of arrogance. I'm not talking arrogance. I'm talking about, look, as a human being, I've failed at this, I've succeeded at that, I've wrecked this, but I've built that, and all in all, you know, I've tried. And, uh... But I like me, so I'm gonna give me some grace. And it's as simple as that. I would buy me a cigar.
- CWChris Williamson
I wonder how many men can say that.
- DNDewayne Noel
Not as many as should. And it's a shame.
- CWChris Williamson
I wonder how many people can say that. How many people say, "I like me," they would give more grace, more care, more attention, more love to somebody else-
- DNDewayne Noel
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... than themselves?
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
There's a, a statistic around, I think, on average, the likelihood that you are going to complete a course of antibiotics yourself-
- DNDewayne Noel
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... is about 50%.
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
The likelihood of your dog completing it is 95%.
- DNDewayne Noel
Yes. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So we're literally capable of caring for a pet-
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... nearly double as well as we can for ourselves, remembering that if you die, no one can look after the pet.
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
So in an odd, roundabout way, serving yourself and f- serving others from a cup which overflows around your own-
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- 1:16:47 – 1:22:21
Advice For People Who Struggle Socially
- CWChris Williamson
I always, uh, used to feel, um, a little nervous when, uh, talking to people, and perhaps the, my horse situation, uh, belied this. I always wanted people to like me.
- DNDewayne Noel
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So I was unpopular as a kid, only child, a lot of time in solitude, bullied in school. And I wanted people around me to think that I was fun or cool or interesting or want to be near me or want to be around me or whatever. And I think I th- I assumed that that was always this sort of grand, charismatic, out of reach, impressive person. You needed to be impressive.
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Needed to walk into a room and, "Look at all of the things I can do."
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
And then, this was two years ago, my friend George made me realize this, just by virtue of being peaceful and brilliant. And I realized that the reason I love being around him wasn't because he was the most charismatic guy in the room or the most, even the most interesting guy in the room, although he can be, but because he made me feel like the most interesting person in the room.
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
And I think this is such an important lesson for people who want to be liked, who want, uh, struggle socially, uh, and want to become better. People like people that make them feel good.
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
They don't care that much about how impressive the person is.
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
There's this great story. I think it was Winston Churchill's wife who met the two, uh, US president candidates, uh, Truman and somebody else.And she said that she sat down at dinner with both of them within the space of about a month of each other.
- DNDewayne Noel
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
So she left from the first president feeling like he was the smartest man in the world, she left from the second president feeling like she was the smartest woman in the world.
- DNDewayne Noel
Right. Right.
- CWChris Williamson
And it is significantly easier to make someone else feel interesting than it is to be interesting, to make someone else feel charismatic than it is to be charismatic.
- DNDewayne Noel
It is. But from an individual ... And this is where I see things because of all of the particular, um, comments and questions and emails and stuff I get from young men, okay? Um, you take a young man out there, and, and everything you just said is 100% correct, I agree with 100%, it's, it's dead on. But there, there are guys out there that don't have someone like that in their life, someone who's gonna be that person that makes them feel good about themselves. But if we become the person that we like ... I have recently come to the pla- and this drives people crazy, I think, I think it irritates people. Um, I have come to the place in my life where when I meet somebody and they're, and they don't like me, and you can tell, I don't care. And when I meet somebody that, that, you know, they're like, they really like me, it's like, okay, but it doesn't carry much weight either, 'cause I'm gonna be leaving. Eh, I'm gonna be leaving, you know, we're not staying. I like me, and it's enough. And so when I meet someone who doesn't like me or I meet someone who does like me, it doesn't alter my sale.
- CWChris Williamson
I suppose that's the, the vicious circle of if you don't like you, you will continue to outsource your self-worth to the people around you-
- DNDewayne Noel
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... which makes you more desperate and more needy. Which inherently makes you less likable-
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... because people know that you're pliable and malleable and will kind of do whatever you need to do-
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... in order to gain their approval.
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, mercifully the horse did lift a hoof up. But it's a, a vicious circle. And I, I, I get that, and you know I'm a, a rehabilitating people pleaser in that regard.
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, but this is, this is the fascinating thing, I think, about developing as a person, that the journey that you're on, parts of it will resonate with other people-
- DNDewayne Noel
Right.
- 1:22:21 – 1:28:41
What Are the Problems Men Are Facing?
- CWChris Williamson
what are you hearing from the guys in your audience, what are they often asking, what are they coming to you, what are the problems that they're dealing with mostly?
- DNDewayne Noel
Relationships. Girls. Um, they, they were not raised, they were not raised with a dad who said, "Hey, this is how you treat a lady." You know, this is, this is how ... W- you know, when girls talk and they say this, what they actually mean is this. And I'm not talking about no means no, I'm, but I'm talking about, you know, I don't, I don't know you don't have to get me something to eat when you go get something, I don't want anything. Um, but i- it's ... And so young men these days were never taught by another man how to treat a lady like a lady, and they go into a relationship, girlfriends, marriages, getting all their information from Hollywood, and it's a crash and burn, 'cause they don't understand relationships, they don't understand communication, uh, they don't understand the balance between being a man and being a bore, being a buffoon, you know, being a tyrant. They don't know the difference between being ... Can I call names on here?
- CWChris Williamson
Absolutely.
- DNDewayne Noel
Okay. Andrew Tate, okay, or, or some little milksop over here. You know, there's, you got the two extremes, and they, they can't f- find that place in the middle. Um, the biggest thing, by far, is relationships.
- CWChris Williamson
What is your advice from 34 and a bit years of marriage and negotiating with a woman from Venus? What is your advice to young guys on how they can treat a lady better and understand them?
- DNDewayne Noel
Treat her like she's special. Uh, I mean, for one thing, uh, for one thing, my problem with the feminist movement is why in the Sam Hill was something as, something as special and wonderful as a woman wanna be equal with a man? Why do you wanna bring yourself down to that level?You know, as a Christian, God gave two very special gifts to mankind. The first one was a woman, and the second was Jesus Christ. Okay? You can teach an ape to work construction. You cannot teach an ape to raise human children. I, I think it's degrading to women to try to be the same as a man is, okay? Treat 'em special. Uh, and, and secondly is communicate, all right? If you don't understand what they're saying, if you're confused, sit down and gently say, "Look, I'm sorry. I don't understand. I don't understand what you're feeling. I don't understand, but I'd love to understand if you can help me." And just sit down and communicate. Just listen to 'em. You know, a lot of times they don't, they just, they just want somebody to listen to 'em. They don't want you to fix it. They just want you to listen to 'em while they, while they take all this boiling stuff inside their head and put it out so they can actually hear it. And sometimes that helps them sort out all these thoughts that's in their head. They need to just put it out so they can hear it, and they don't need you to demean 'em by saying, "Okay, I'll fix this." Just, just listen to 'em.
- CWChris Williamson
There's a quote from Timothy Leary that says, "Women who aspire to be equal with men lack ambition."
- DNDewayne Noel
Yeah. Yeah, I hadn't heard that, but I agree with it. I'm like, I get up and give you my seat 'cause I think you're special, not 'cause I think you're my equal. A guy comes in, he's 57 years old, he's physically equal to me, he's on my... I'm not gonna get up and give him my seat, all right? So I give you my seat not 'cause I think you're my equal. If you're my equal, you can stand just like I do. I give you my seat 'cause you're special.
- CWChris Williamson
What about the reverse? What do you wish more women knew about how men operated?
- DNDewayne Noel
Oh. There's 10,000 times more going on inside the head of a man than you have any idea. He's carrying burdens that you don't have a clue about, and he don't know how to express 'em, and he don't know what to do about it, and he figures if he puts it out there and communicates it, he's just gonna be shot down, called a fool, called weak, so he carries it inside. And you have no clue the burdens and the hell that most men are carrying inside and not even showing ya. I wish more women understood that.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, it's a, a strange problem, I think, of the modern discussion around men and why they're struggling, that a lot of the solutions that get put forward, a lot of the only acceptable solutions that get put forward are, "If only you acted less like a man, all of your problems would go away," that men are treated like defective women as opposed to treated like work-in-progress men.
- DNDewayne Noel
The average man, I believe, the average real man does not need to go get therapy for the battles and the burdens he's carrying inside. What he needs is for those that he's carrying them for to recognize that they're there, and to respect it, and to be grateful for it. They don't need to talk it out to get rid of it. They need the one that they're going through this hell for to recognize it's there and to be grateful that the man is carrying this for them. They don't need therapy. They need gratitude.
Episode duration: 1:55:03
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