I Threw A Party With San Diego's Most Interesting Millionaires (#405)

Shaan Puri 0:02 [upbeat music] So I had a crazy, um, amazing weekend, and I wanna tell you about it.

Sam Parr 0:16 Go for it. I wanna hear about it.

Shaan Puri 0:18 All right. So, uh, we've done these before, but I'll explain kinda how they work for, for people who are listening.

Sam Parr 0:24 Oh.

Shaan Puri 0:25 So about once a year, maybe twice a year, we do these kinda, like, friend/founder weekend hangout-type things. And by the way, sorry, you should've been there. I don't know why the in- invite got lost in the mail. Don't worry about that. [laughs] But we-

Sam Parr 0:38 Oh, I'm worried about it.

Shaan Puri 0:39 [laughs]

Sam Parr 0:39 You're lucky I couldn't... I... You're lucky I couldn't have made it, but I'm worried about it.

Shaan Puri 0:43 I was gonna text you, um, while we were doing it, and I was like, "Wait, why isn't Sam here?" And I was like, "Ben, did we te- did, did Sam say no, or did we not tell Sam?" And then he was like, "I don't know. This whole thing got screwed up, uh, 'cause we... Whatever. We bumped it back twice, and then this happened." Anyway, so, um, once, twice a year, go somewhere, rent an Airbnb, uh, four to five kinda founder friends, and hang out. And the idea-

Sam Parr 1:08 But this one was different. This, this one was a, a intimate birthday thing. As opposed to last time we did it, it was, like, a 20-person one.

Shaan Puri 1:16 Um, maybe. Yeah, I don't even remember. It's got bumped back twice, so at this point, who knows? Um, but basically w- it was like, all right, start the new year. Let's all get together, hang out, and do whatever. And so we, um, we go to San Diego. We rent, um, an Airbnb from Mark Jenny, who you've talked about on the pod before. Just to explain what he's doing, he founded a company called RVshare, which was like Airbnb for renting RVs, and grew that, sold that for, I think, $100 million. And, um-

Sam Parr 1:45 Part of it. I think he sold it-

Shaan Puri 1:47 Part of it.

Sam Parr 1:47 Yeah, to-

Shaan Puri 1:47 Yeah, he sold it private equity

Sam Parr 1:48 ... to KKR, I believe.

Shaan Puri 1:49 I think he's actually sold twice. So he sold one chunk the first time, second chunk recently. And, um, and I think he still owns a, a piece of it. But anyways, RVshare, really successful business. He's got a crazy story where I think he was, like, homeless at one point in time-

Sam Parr 2:02 Yeah

Shaan Puri 2:02 ... and, and made the whole thing happen. We'll have him on shortly. But, um-

Sam Parr 2:05 Very inspirational person

Shaan Puri 2:06 ... he now has an Airbnb... a luxury Airbnb portfolio worth about $50 million. [laughs] And so he's got, I don't know, 20-something properties, and he goes for the over-the-top kinda, like, destination experience, uh, you know, maybe, like, party type of, um, ho- houses. So this house, we get there-

Sam Parr 2:25 Like, like fa- like family parties.

Shaan Puri 2:28 Family or, like, uh, buddies going for a golf trip, um, you know, type of thing, where it's like, like, his... one of his most successful properties that is in Scottsdale, Arizona. And we're like, "Scottsdale? Why?" He's like, "Oh, peop- guys go there for golf trips. And so, you know, eight buddies get together, and they, they rent my place, and it's great. And they all have money, and so the price isn't as big of an issue," or whatever. So this one is in San Diego, and, um, the backyard, I think this guy must have put somewhere between $1 and $2 million into the backyard. So he, um... We ge- you go outside, there's a basketball court. There's a pickleball court. There's a wiffle ball field with a fence, like a full baseball diamond, basically. There is golf course. There is, like, pool, sauna, everything you could think of. It is like a boy, uh, you know, boy paradise, basically-

Sam Parr 3:16 Yeah

Shaan Puri 3:16 ... little boy paradise. And so it was perfect for us, right? That's all we were doing. You go inside the house, you know, there's, like, a full poker table with the poker set with the perfect chairs. There's pool table. There's all kinds of good stuff. Anyways, so we get there, and, um, a couple, uh, really cool things happen. Uh, one, Mark came over for dinner. Uh, he's like, uh, you know, hosted dinner for us there. And he was telling us his story, which is kinda crazy, but I kinda wanna save that bit for the podcast. Um-

Sam Parr 3:42 I've asked him to come on tons of times, by the way. He turns me down. And I'm good friends with Mark, and he turns me down. He's like, "Oh, no, I'm with my family all summer." And-

Shaan Puri 3:50 Yeah, yeah

Sam Parr 3:50 ... whenever he turns me down, I'm-

Shaan Puri 3:51 He just had a k- he just had a baby, so I think now-

Sam Parr 3:52 I'm like, I appreciate that. I appreciate it.

Shaan Puri 3:55 Y- I think he'll do it. Um, he's definitely... He listens to the pod, so you know, instead of listening one day for that hour, just come on and talk. Like, it's no extra time for you, Mark. And so then the next, uh... So we, we kinda hang out. First day is just straight sports, male bonding. Sweaty male bonding, let's call it. And, uh, we're just playing every sport that's there. Uh, and in between, we sort of talk business or whatever. Second day, we... I tweeted out, I go, "Who's in San Diego?" And a bunch of people replied. Ben goes through, curates, and is just like, "All right, these 15 people seem cool. I'm gonna invite them over to the house." So they come over to the house, and I just wanna set the scene of this kinda, like, party. Uh, first of all,

Shaan Puri 4:36 first of all, this whole segment should be called Shaan Leaves the House, because I'm explaining how cool this was. This is probably a monthly occurrence for you. Uh, to me, I was like, "Dude, I left the house. I met all these cool people." It was amazing. [laughs] 'Cause I never leave my house. [laughs] And so this time, I was out of my house. I met a bunch of cool people. Um-

Sam Parr 4:52 You didn't, but you still didn't leave the state.

Shaan Puri 4:54 I didn't leave the state, no. I, I barely got on a flight. So, [laughs] so, so here's the scene. In the room, uh, there is two guys who own NFT projects that have probably done 200-plus million in sales.

Sam Parr 5:09 Wow.

Shaan Puri 5:09 Um, they're both under the age of 23, mid-24, maybe. Um, so that's kinda crazy. One of them, one of them didn't even have a public identity until, like, you know, a month ago. So that was, uh... People know Frank from, from DeGods. So DeGods was the number one project on Solana. Uh, it's like the Bored Apes of Solana. And, um, and yeah, he basically, uh, he just kinda a- said, "Hey, hey, here's my real identity," whatever. So he can now show up to parties and say what he does, whereas before, he couldn't do that. Um, okay, second thing, uh, so that was one group. Then there was the D2C c- crew. These are people who have built products that are... like, created a product. Uh, one guy, um, created this thing called gel blasters. Think, like, a Nerf gun or a BB gun, but just with, like, gel pellets.

Sam Parr 5:58 I love that.

Shaan Puri 5:58 Um, it went from, like, zero to, I don't know if I'm allowed to say the number, but tens of millions in revenue in a year. And then, like, has a crazy story. Uh, I'm gonna get him on the pod too to come tell this story. But has a crazy story of sort of getting screwed over by one of the big toy companies. They, they pretended to buy his company for like 100 million bucks, and then he, like, does the diligence with them, shows them all the design files, the CAD files, the everything, the specs of the product. They fall out, and then three months later launch, like, an identical product [laughs] to, to compete with him. And, like, steal his influencer marketing plan, everything. Uh, it's a kind of crazy story there. Um, other people in the room. Remember the mini katana guy we talked about?

Sam Parr 6:40 Oh, he came?

Shaan Puri 6:40 Isaac? He came.

Sam Parr 6:41 Awesome.

Shaan Puri 6:42 So he's there, and he's showing me, like, how they basically do eight figures in revenue without a single dollar on ads. And it's not out of pride. Like, he just can't advertise 'cause it's like Facebook's like, "Yo, this is a weapon." [laughs] You can't advertise swords on Facebook. So he had to get creative and was just like, "Okay, how do I make organic content that's so good-

Sam Parr 7:02 You wanna buy this sword

Shaan Puri 7:03 ... that I can sell tens of millions of dollars worth of this sword?" And, um, I thought that was pretty remarkable. Really super nice guy that came over. Um, and he's like, "Dude, I was listening to the podcast while driving, and I heard you guys talking about a katana store." And I was like... He's like, "I almost drove off the road."

Sam Parr 7:20 Oh.

Shaan Puri 7:20 I was like, "No, are they talking about me? Who are they talking about?" [laughs] And he's like, "That was a surreal moment." Um, all right, so he's there. Uh, a guy you know, a c- a former CIA operative came, who I think you interviewed for the pod. You did a pod with him, and then we couldn't release it.

Sam Parr 7:38 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 7:38 And we don't even need to say more 'cause that already sounds juicy as a mother effer, right? [laughs]

Sam Parr 7:42 We couldn't release it because, uh, he said a bunch of classified stuff. And so this person, I don't even know what I can say now, but basically, uh, this is me speaking-

Shaan Puri 7:54 Tread lightly

Sam Parr 7:54 ... not, this is me speaking, not him. Um, but it's almost as if they convince people in other countries to become treasonous.

Shaan Puri 8:03 Spies.

Sam Parr 8:04 Spies.

Shaan Puri 8:04 Yeah.

Sam Parr 8:05 Yeah, spies is better than treasonous.

Shaan Puri 8:06 If you've watched Jack Ryan, this was like the real-life Jack Ryan.

Sam Parr 8:09 And we asked him all about that, and then he left the government, and he created a business. And so there was a good overlap.

Shaan Puri 8:16 So I'm gonna tell you one, uh, so I'm, I'm, I'm like-

Sam Parr 8:18 Don't say his name though, by the way.

Shaan Puri 8:19 Yeah, yeah, I'm not gonna do it. So I was like, uh, I was like, "So how do you do it? How do you convince somebody? You're just this like, you know, American person coming into their country. You know, you go into Afghanistan or wherever, who, you know, Yemen or some place, um, how do you convince them to like, you know, work for the US government to help us?" And he's like, "Well, um, like two years of rapport building, and then it's, you know, it's manipulation, right?" [laughs] Like you are trying to.

Sam Parr 8:45 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 8:45 And I was like, "So how would you do that? Like, I feel like you couldn't do that." And he's like, "Remember earlier, uh, when we were grabbing a drink, you said you really want X?" And I was like, "No." I, I it's like in passing I must have-

Sam Parr 8:56 Yeah

Shaan Puri 8:56 ... said something. He's like, "For about a year, I will basically talk to this person, and I'll find out their every want, their every need, their every problem, and I'm keeping a file. And I'm keeping this file for years [laughs] before I flip them." And I was like, "Wow." Uh-

Sam Parr 9:10 And this person's really charming

Shaan Puri 9:11 ... I don't wanna talk anymore. What?

Sam Parr 9:13 He's very charming, and he's very likable. And when he-

Shaan Puri 9:15 Tells great stories

Sam Parr 9:16 ... when he tells a story, you're captivated. He, he's got an it factor. And so when I was with him, I was like, "Oh yeah, I understand why, uh, I would, I would commit this thing in order to like p- uh, uh, you know, please you."

Shaan Puri 9:29 Right. So he told one story, amazing. I called four people over, "You gotta hear this. You gotta hear this. Come here. Tell another one." He's like, "Um," [smacks lips] and I'm like, "Shit, I just-

Sam Parr 9:41 Yeah, you ruined it

Shaan Puri 9:41 ... I, I, I milked it too hard."

Sam Parr 9:42 You're like, "Hey, you're funny. Tell a joke."

Shaan Puri 9:44 Then he tells another banger.

Sam Parr 9:45 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 9:45 And I'm like, and everybody's like, "Oh, wow." To the last three people who didn't hear the first one, "Get over here. Get over here. Get over here. Hey, you got another one?" And he's like, "Oh, you know, the, you know, the thing is, uh, you know, blah, blah, blah." He's kinda hemming and hawing. And I was like, "Look, if this story's shit, no problem. You're already, you already won. This is just a bonus lap. If it's terrible, I have no problem with you. I already think you're amazing." I just depressurized the moment for a second, and I was like, "You know, just try to give us one more." He gives us one more, and I was like, "Wow, this is a..." Y- you know, my friend Jason Hitchcock has this thing he says. He goes, uh, "You say one interesting thing, I say, 'Huh, interesting.' Two interesting things, I say, 'Those are interesting.' Three interesting things, I say, 'You are interesting.'" [laughs] And that's what happened. By the third one, I was like, "You are interesting." Uh, that's how I felt. So that guy was kind of amazing. Um-

Sam Parr 10:36 And by the way, I, I'll, I'll say, um, I c- uh, this kind of sucks to talk about because I can't reveal a lot, but you and I have a friend, and this person, um, is related to a bunch of, like, SEALs and CIA people. And it just so happens that there's this weird community of, like, these ex-CIA, NSA, SEALs-

Shaan Puri 10:54 Right

Sam Parr 10:54 ... all these, like, you know, abbreviated-

Shaan Puri 10:56 Podcasters.

Sam Parr 10:57 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 10:57 [laughs]

Sam Parr 10:58 And, and, well, they, they get out, and they go, and they start businesses.

Shaan Puri 11:02 Right.

Sam Parr 11:02 Because, like, I guess they have a pension, so they have a little bit of money. Um, like r- they, they have some of their basic needs covered, and then they go and start businesses. And we're, they're in our world, and it's-

Shaan Puri 11:11 Very successful

Sam Parr 11:11 ... and they're very successful, and it's, I love hanging out with these guys, you know? And they, and they're like proper heroes. And then they're, like, talking to me about, like, internet and CAC, and I'm like, "Yeah, but what about ISIS? Like, tell me, tell me a story-

Shaan Puri 11:24 [laughs]

Sam Parr 11:24 ... about that. Like, tell me that time you eliminated 18 ISIS people." You know what I mean? It's like they're heroes. It's fun talking to these guys.

Shaan Puri 11:31 Yeah. And then, um, let's see, who else? So then, uh, our buddy Ramon is there. Ramon's there with his son, and, and, uh, Ramon's telling us amazing stories. Has he ever told you the, uh, contractor story?

Sam Parr 11:42 The best thing I've ever heard. Yeah, you wanna retell it?

Shaan Puri 11:44 [laughs] So yeah. Can I retell it here?

Sam Parr 11:46 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 11:46 'Cause I don't know when the next time he's gonna be on, but he's like, um, we have to make-

Sam Parr 11:48 And he's officially, he's an American now. Ramon's an American now, by the way.

Shaan Puri 11:52 He's a, he, so, so that was the big thing. He's a, he's officially, uh, an American. We go out to, b- before he arrives, we go out, we get him a cake from, uh, like the Safeway there or whatever, and we're like, um, "Hey, can you, uh, write a message on here?" He's like, "No, it's closed for the day." I was like, "Bro, you gotta write a message," and, you know, convince the guy. He writes a message. Uh, welcome to America.

Sam Parr 12:10 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 12:11 Uh, misspelled welcome, so it just says, "Welome to America."

Sam Parr 12:14 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 12:14 Like, sounds like the most non-American thing ever. [laughs]

Sam Parr 12:17 That's all right.

Shaan Puri 12:17 And, um, he... And I was like, "You know, so you got your citizenship. That's amazing. What happened afterwards?" And then his son Victor was like, "Oh, man. In the car afterwards, everybody who was calling, he would just answer, 'Hello, fellow American.'" [laughs]

Sam Parr 12:32 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 12:34 So that was amazing. So he's, uh... At, at the dinner party, we're like, "You know, tell us a story." Uh, no, we were like, um, "What's an icebreaker for a group like this?" It's like, "What's the f- uh, what's the, um, weirdest way you tried to make a buck?" Like, "What's the weirdest way you tried to make money?" 'Cause otherwise, in this type of scenario, if you kinda say, "Oh, so what do you do?" People just go into their script.

Sam Parr 12:57 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shaan Puri 12:57 And it's kind of... And the whole thing's just kinda pretentious, 'cause they're... it's a room full of successful people, and everybody starts kinda one-upping each other in this weird way. So instead, you wanna, like, neg the whole group. So this is the neg-the-whole-group question, "What's the weirdest way you tried to make a buck?" Um, and Ramon's like... Uh, you know, he's got, like, 10 of these, and we're like, "Dude..." This is the thing about Ramon. He's very quiet, but when you start getting him to tell a story, it's like a vending machine. Like, like a-

Sam Parr 13:20 Mm-hmm

Shaan Puri 13:20 ... endless vending machine of, of stories you've never heard of, even though you've known the guy for 10 years.

Shaan Puri 13:25 So he's like, "Yeah. Uh, back in the day, I was like, 'Okay, I wanna start a construct...' Uh, no, what is it?" He's like, "I'm gonna start a painting business." He's like, "I o- I need money. I'm 18 years old. I'll, uh, paint walls." And so he just puts up a thing that's like, "I'll paint walls." But, you know, being the hustler that he is, he's like, "I'll... You know what? I... How can I widen the top of this funnel? Let me just say painting, handyman, I'll fix anything. Whatever you got, I'm a general c- I'm a general contractor. I'll do generally anything."

Sam Parr 13:52 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 13:52 And, uh, so he's 18 years old. He puts up his listing on the, like, the Dutch Craigslist like that. And, um, he gets an inquiry the next day that says, "Hey, um, I need a electrician for some electrical work." And he's like, "Great. Be there tomorrow morning." [laughs] And he's like, um, and he's like, "I go to the store," uh, like Home Depot-type store, "and I'm looking at, like, these vests. I'm like, 'Which one looks more like an electrician?'"

Sam Parr 14:15 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 14:15 And like, basically, he's like Halloween. He's, like, trying to find a costume. And he's like, "I go there the next day, and the guy's like, um, 'Cool, yeah, so we need, like, you know, uh, 40 amps here, and we're gonna do... You know, we're gonna run a line under the circ- o- o- over here.'" He's like, "Dude, he's saying words. Like, forget about knowing how to do it. I didn't even understand the words he's saying." So-

Sam Parr 14:32 And he has a clipboard, though, but he... and he's, like, writing it down

Shaan Puri 14:35 He's got a clip... He's writing notes. He's wearing the vest, and he's like, "Mm-hmm, mm-hmm."

Sam Parr 14:37 And he's saying, "Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh."

Shaan Puri 14:38 "Yeah, yeah. Okay, tell me more."

Sam Parr 14:40 Yeah. [laughs]

Shaan Puri 14:40 And he's like, just... The guy just keeps going. It's, like, a very complicated job. He's like, "I hoped it was..." I was like, "Dude, what'd you think was gonna happen?" He's like, "I hoped it was, like, light bulbs." Like, he's like, "Electrical, electricity. I don't know, light bulbs." And he's like, "Once I got there, I was like, 'Oh, shit.' Um, but I'm writing. I don't know what to say. I don't know what to do, so I'm like, 'Okay, maybe I can figure it out.' You know, open up the cir- the, the... open up the, the thing. There's just 1,000 wires. I'm like, 'Okay, there's no way I know what to do here.'" [laughs] And so he's like, um-

Sam Parr 15:06 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 15:07 "Yeah, listen, man. Uh, I gotta tell you."

Sam Parr 15:09 I think he tells him this the next day or something, or-

Shaan Puri 15:11 Yeah, the next day. [laughs] He goes home.

Sam Parr 15:13 Yeah, he goes home, and he thinks about it, and he reflects, and he's like, "I gotta come clean to this guy."

Shaan Puri 15:17 [laughs]

Sam Parr 15:18 Like, "I don't know how to do... I don't know anything. I don't, I don't know what to do."

Shaan Puri 15:20 [laughs]

Sam Parr 15:20 And he's, like, reviewing his notes. He's like, "I don't know what any of this means."

Shaan Puri 15:23 [laughs] Yeah, so he goes back. He's like, "I gotta tell you, man. Um, I've never done electrical work." [laughs]

Sam Parr 15:30 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 15:31 He's like, "I just needed money. I thought I could figure it out, and, um, slept on it. Turns out I can't. [laughs] I have no idea how to do this." And the guy was like, "What the fuck?" [laughs]

Sam Parr 15:42 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 15:42 And he was also like, "You know what, kid?" Like, he's like, "I'm an entrepreneur." He's like, um, "I respect the hustle. I respect that you were honest." And he's like... Ramon was like, "You know, when you're honest and you're young, um, like, good things happen." And the guy, he's like, "Gave me a great lesson." He's like, "You know what? Like, instead of telling me, like, 'Don't ever do this again,'" he was like, "Actually, uh, you know, what you should do is you don't need to know how to do electrical work. You got the job. Now you need to find somebody who does know electrical work, and subcontract it out, and keep a margin. And so you shouldn't be here anyways. You should be doing that." And he's like, "Oh." And he started an actual, like, general contracting business doing that from there. And the guy, like, helped him out. Um, basically gave him a job and, and helped him out.

Sam Parr 16:22 And that eventually... He did that for a couple years, and he actually made maybe, uh, for sure hundreds of thousands. I think he made close to a million dollars. I think his first million was running that business. And then he immigrated to America, and he created a, uh, Brazilian music festival. I have no idea why.

Shaan Puri 16:40 Yeah.

Sam Parr 16:40 And he lost all of it. And then he created more internet business, and made it all again, and then lost it all again-

Shaan Puri 16:44 Lost it all again

Sam Parr 16:44 ... and made it all again.

Shaan Puri 16:45 Yeah. [laughs]

Sam Parr 16:45 And so he's done that a bunch of times. Very fascinating guy.

Shaan Puri 16:48 Yeah. E- even his current business, so he has this business called Alpha Paw, and he sells, like, do- great dog products, so dog ramps, things like that. And, uh, even that, like, went up, up, up, up, up, and then hits a... And then, like, you know, when COVID happened, shipping costs went through the roof. So, like, a container for shipping used to cost $3,000. Now, then it started costing $20,000. So, like, a 6X increase.

Sam Parr 17:10 Ruined everything.

Shaan Puri 17:11 And when you have a huge product, you need a lot... It takes up a lot of space, so you need a lot of containers. So his, his unit cost blew up. That was really tough. And, but he's so resilient. So, like, he, he's like, "All right, what's the pivot?" And he pivoted to... He's like, "Dogs, having trouble. Cats." [laughs] And so he's like, "All right." And he made this kitty litter product called Genius Litter. And now he just got a deal where he's now in PetSmart nationwide, which is amazing. And now he's, like, back, back, you know, in the go- and now it's like, "Dude, I need..." So if you're listening to this, you know the gentleman's agreement to go smash subscribe. But also, if you have a cat, or you don't have a cat, you got a dog, doesn't matter what you got. Go to PetSmart, buy this guy's Genius Litter so his business, uh, you know, thrives, 'cause this guy deserves it. Best guy I know. So, um, you know, so just amazing stories one after another of each person about, like,

Shaan Puri 17:59 bouncing back. So there was a bunch of, like, I don't know, takeaways I had from this. Number one, storytelling wins.

Sam Parr 18:06 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 18:06 There was a bunch of people at this event that were all equally impressive, but it was the ones who understood how to tell a story That stood out and that everybody loved, made a bunch of connections. People started helping them out. They're like, "Oh, you should try X, Y, Z. Oh, you gotta meet blah, blah, blah." And it was the people that didn't understand how to tell their story, they only told facts, and it was just sort of like, "I, I'm, you know, whatever. I'm Steve. This is what I do, blah, blah, blah. Everything's been great." "All right. Thanks, Steve. See ya." You know, like, you know-

Sam Parr 18:35 Yeah, you need some of that sizzle.

Shaan Puri 18:37 Yeah, you, they didn't have that sizzle. And so the sizzle, the storytell- telling sizzle was so important and so obvious. And then there's nuances. Like, there were some people that were storytellers that every story was how awesome they were. And you, you could just see it was, like, just repelling people. Like, they, "Here's how awesome I am," and then slowly but surely, "Okay, great. Got one of those stories. I'm gonna go get a drink now. See ya." And it was the person who could tell a story that was, like, slightly making fun of themselves. Even the CIA guy, he goes, "Oh, I have a rule. I only tell CIA stories where I look like an idiot. Um, I never tell CIA stories where I, you know, I beat the bad guys, I fought five guys, and then everybody clapped." He's like, "I'll never tell a story like that." And so I was like, "That's a great rule in general for people." So that, I, I think that was, like, one big takeaway. Second takeaway is I should probably leave the house a little more often. This was dope. And, um, I used to do this all the time, and then I kinda got a little cocky and was just sorta like, "Yeah, I got a great network. You know, I don't really need to, like, put in like this." But when I was in my 20s, I used to do this all the time, and this was just a reminder of how much value you can get by talking to other people in the game or, like, you know... I, I think this podcast serves as that for people, too, where you hear these stories, you get inspired, you get ideas, growth hacks, and, um, and it's surprising how helpful people are. So I think that was the second one.

Sam Parr 19:52 You know what I describe that as? You, when you're around certain people, you realize that the world is malleable, and you see all types of people who are bending the world to the reality that they want. And then you feel like, "Oh, yeah, that's cool. I could do that, too." So it doesn't matter. You're like-

Shaan Puri 20:06 Right

Sam Parr 20:06 ... I don't care if you're selling, if you're, if you're in the CIA, if you're selling Genius Litter. It doesn't matter. It's just cool to see people who are kicking their dent into the universe.

Shaan Puri 20:16 Right. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And, um, second thing I would say is there was a huge difference in life phase attitude. All right, what does that mean? So we, at this event, so we had Ra- Ramon's son and his friend. Uh, shout out to Jude. He came, so, uh-

Sam Parr 20:32 Oh, he does, he's a fun kid, too.

Shaan Puri 20:33 Super fun kid, super chatty.

Sam Parr 20:35 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 20:35 Chatty Cathy. And, uh, by, by the way, the next day he was like, he's holding up the gel blaster gun thing. He's like, "So they said they make this for," whatever. I'm gonna make up numbers. "They make this for $3, and they sell it for 9." I was like, "Dude, he's already picking it up. This guy's, like-"

Sam Parr 20:48 Yeah

Shaan Puri 20:48 ... 10 or 11. He's like, "That's a really big, like, you know, margin." And, uh, I was like, "Wow, you know margin? That's, that's really impressive." Um, so, so anyways, we had people that were 10 or 11.

Shaan Puri 20:59 We had the guys who were kinda like 20 to 25, the, the NFT boys and then, and D2C, some of the D2C guys. We had guys like us who were in our 30s, and we were like, "All right, yeah, w-" And I'll tell you the differences and w- and how each one was approaching it in a second. We had guys in their 40s, so that's like, you know, you know-

Sam Parr 21:15 Mark

Shaan Puri 21:16 ... Ramon, Sully-

Sam Parr 21:16 Ramon

Shaan Puri 21:16 ... that sort of thing.

Sam Parr 21:17 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 21:18 Um, and then we had... Well, then I went and met up with a guy in his 70s and, like, a, a husband and wife in their 70s. So I saw all those life phases. I want you to guess. What do you think was the, like, notable, like, differences in those ages in terms of, like, what they cared about, what they thought about? What were the differences?

Sam Parr 21:35 Have you ever heard the story of, like, there's, like, an old bull and a young bull, and they see a bunch of cows. And the young bull goes, "Let's hurry up and get down there and have sex with all them cows." And the old bull's like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. We can walk."

Shaan Puri 21:48 Yeah. [laughs]

Sam Parr 21:48 "We could, we could walk down there, and we could take our time." And that's kind of the difference, I imagine. The 22-year-olds were like, "Let's do everything." The 30-year-olds were a little bit wiser. The 40-year-olds were like, "Hey, let's just pick and choose our battles a little bit more wisely."

Shaan Puri 22:00 Yeah. [laughs]

Sam Parr 22:00 "And, like, and let's enjoy the process."

Shaan Puri 22:02 Yeah.

Sam Parr 22:02 The 17-year-olds were more so like, uh, "None of it matters."

Shaan Puri 22:06 Yeah. [laughs] Exactly.

Sam Parr 22:07 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 22:07 That's exactly right. So the, the, the te- the teens or preteens, they were basically just like, "You wanna play? Let's... What are we gonna play? Hey, you guys wanna play this while we play this?" It's like we were on the pickleball court, and then in between points they're running and kicking the soccer ball. And then a- right afterwards he's like, "You wanna play Monopoly? You wanna do this?" And, like, till the last minute of the last second of the day, it was like, "You wanna play?"

Sam Parr 22:30 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 22:30 Uh, and I thought that was, like, you know, just an awesome energy to be around. The other part of it was, like, um, they also were doing Khan Academy a bunch, and I was like, wow, they really, like, want to learn this stuff.

Sam Parr 22:43 Yeah, you learn.

Shaan Puri 22:43 Like, that's kinda cool. Um, you know, that's a, that's kind of amazing. That, that just kinda blew me away. So they were all about play. Then you had your guys in your 20s that were the I-got-it-all-figured-out guys, and I remember being that guy. And it's like they actually do have a lot of life figured out. They're way ahead of the curve. But the problem is they think they're at the end of the curve. They think they got it all figured out. And so you listen to the stories, and they're saying things, and you're like, "You know what? Four out of the 10 things you just said were totally wrong. But you know what? It doesn't matter. It, the fact that you believe all 10 is gonna work, and, um, and I just love that you think all 10 are right."

Sam Parr 23:20 I love that.

Shaan Puri 23:21 Like, what are the odds all 10 of them are right?

Sam Parr 23:22 That's, that's a good way to summarize it, yeah.

Shaan Puri 23:23 [laughs] Um, but they were, they were a lot of fun. And their thing was just sorta like, "W- we're going huge. Like, the, of course this is gonna work. Uh, this is gonna be massive. We got it figured out." And, um, not in a cocky way, just, like, they had only known winning.

Sam Parr 23:39 Mm-hmm.

Shaan Puri 23:40 And, uh, and I thought that was awesome 'cause as you get older, you start to take Ls. You take health Ls. You take, you see friends take Ls. You make big mis- expensive mistakes. You take those Ls. And that sort of humbles you a little bit. And so this was pretty humbling, and I loved it. I loved that energy, uh, because, you know, even at first I was like, "Man, these guys are delusional." And then I was like, "How do I... Hey, pass the delusion, please. I'd like to sip on some of that." Uh, that's a lot of fun, actually. I forgot how useful that can be. Um, all right, guys in their 30s like us, weird middle state. It's like I have a lot of self-belief But I now know how expensive it is to go down the wrong path. Whereas the guys in their 20s don't know how expensive it is to go down the wrong path.

Sam Parr 24:23 Waste of time.

Shaan Puri 24:23 They don't even know, they don't even think about the path. They're like, "I'm just pathing."

Sam Parr 24:26 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 24:26 "I'm just pathing, bro. I'm just on the path. I don't even think about the fact that I could be doing five other things. I'm doing this, and it's, this makes completely, complete sense to me." Whereas the 30s were like, "I could do this or I could do that," and they're almost paralysis by analysis.

Sam Parr 24:38 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 24:38 Um, they've accomplished too muth- too much to just do something stupid. Like the guys in their 20s who created this NFT project, they were able to just do something stupid and it paid off. They created this, uh, this, you know, gel blaster Nerf gun 'cause it just was stupid and they thought it was cool, and like that was enough justification to do it. "Oh, that looks fun. Do it." Whereas the guys in 30s are like, "That looks fun, but, uh, let's, let's spreadsheet this out real quick and just see. Well, you know, let, let's back of the envelope this thing." And they-

Sam Parr 25:03 Yeah, like, um, when, when you have something to lose it changes a little bit.

Shaan Puri 25:07 Right. And so they back of the envelope themselves to death, but you know, they're still, at least they're still thinking of the, the, the difference was when you compare to the 40s, the 40s were like, "We know what we're doing. Um, when I hear about what all these other guys are doing I'm half amused and half of it exhausts me and I wanna go take a nap. Like you're just confusing me with all these things that honestly, like I don't feel like I need to know any of this stuff. I, I, I, I'm perfectly happy not being in NFTs and not knowing how to do TikTok videos to sell mini swords. Like that's cool, but man, I just wanna go relax right now." And the second thing was they were like [laughs] one of them he just like found out he has high blood pressure so he had a blood pressure monitor with him. And he was like, um, just took his blood pressure and I, we were like, I was like, "Uh, dude I never take my blood pressure. Put me in." And so we took our blood pressure like four times [laughs] a day just for fun. But I was like, you know, they were like, like you said, they wanted to enjoy the journey. So they were like, "Yeah, yeah, we can talk business but like let's go play some pickleball. That'd be fun."

Sam Parr 26:06 Yeah, and I think-

Shaan Puri 26:07 Um

Sam Parr 26:07 ... I, as you get older you, you, you respect all the different ways that you can get there but you know your lane. And you go-

Shaan Puri 26:14 They knew their lane. That's exactly right

Sam Parr 26:15 They go, "I know my lane and I know if I just do this all the time for n- I know what compounding looks like."

Shaan Puri 26:21 And everybody else looks very scatterbrained in comparison.

Sam Parr 26:25 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 26:25 Uh, but the know their laners, and I, I don't mean that in a discouraging way. Like they were, they were definitely learning and, and they've, they've made adjustments but they weren't seeking the next hit. They, they were just like, "I found a hit and I enjoy this hit and I wanna also think about life and marriage and kids and health," and that was a way bigger part of their, their life. Like their mor- their own mortality was more on their mind than proving themselves like the 20s and 30s.

Sam Parr 26:49 And the older I get and the more experienced I get, I understand compounding better. I, it, that was, that, that was a really hard thing for me to understand in my early 20s and late 20s. And then once I like start seeing it work a little bit you start understanding it and you go, "Oh wow, so if I just do this all the time for 10 years like look at the, I'll, I'll be in a better place than I will be if I start a bunch of different things." And-

Shaan Puri 27:10 Yes

Sam Parr 27:11 ... uh, so you understand compounding a little bit better so you know, well if I just stay in my lane I can respect everyone else's, what they're doing. That's neat and I, and I think that's cool and I can learn. But if I just do this mostly the same I'm gonna, I'm gonna get to where I wanna go.

Shaan Puri 27:23 Yeah. So, so that was the 40s. And then the 70s were basically like some cont- combi- some combination of I wanna contribute so they were like pitching me a project that was like a philanthropic thing. And I was like, "Philanthropy? Oh okay, that's, th- this is a different conversation than everybody else's, all the other conversations I've been having all weekend." And the second thing was they were just happy we came over to their house. It's like when we were leaving I was like, "Man, it's gonna be really quiet once we leave here. Like is this a..."

Sam Parr 27:49 Who was this person?

Shaan Puri 27:49 "Oh man, that's kind of..." Huh?

Sam Parr 27:51 Who was the person? Can you say?

Shaan Puri 27:53 Um, I don't wanna say their name just 'cause I'm gonna like, you know, tell maybe, I don't know what I'm gonna say about them so I don't wanna say their name. But like kind of like a successful entrepreneurial couple in San Diego. Um-

Sam Parr 28:02 Got it

Shaan Puri 28:02 ... and so I was like, you know, I went to their house and I was like, they, they were really nice, really cool hostess.

Sam Parr 28:06 They a fat house?

Shaan Puri 28:07 But also I... What's that?

Sam Parr 28:08 Fat house?

Shaan Puri 28:10 Uh, semi fat house. Yeah. Like nice, um, yeah, nice house. But also when you see a house at night by the way it's like, uh, you don't actually see the house.

Sam Parr 28:19 Right.

Shaan Puri 28:19 Because you [laughs] can't see anything around it and you can't see like, you know, you only see like a part of it. It's just very different when you see a house at night versus during the day. Um, but I just felt like the things that mattered to them were their grandkids, their kids marrying the right person, figuring out how to like contribute, and also just like their house not being so quiet. Just like any liveliness in the house, uh, it was like a win. It didn't even really matter what we talked about or what came out of it. Like I, I feel like us being there was a cool, fun change of pace. And I was like, yeah, I guess when I'm in my 70s I'm also gonna want that a lot because I'll probably be kind of like at home kind of bored a, a bunch, you know? And so that was like also kind of a wake up call for me was like, oh wow, yeah, yeah this life thing does go pretty fast here.

Sam Parr 29:03 Dude, so it sounds like a sick weekend.

Shaan Puri 29:06 Yeah, it was a lot of fun.

Sam Parr 29:07 That's badass. Yeah, I, I have to talk to Ramon and I gotta, I wanna learn all about it, um, or from his perspective, but it sounds like a sick weekend. Yeah, that should happen every six

Sam Parr 29:16 months.

Shaan Puri 29:17 Yeah, I think, yeah I think we should do that, uh, again. And also the, um, it was cool that, um, like even the house we were in was kind of like a business. [laughs] It was like this Air- this luxury Airbnb itself is a business. And uh, and it just kinda breaks your frame a little bit. Like I think that's a pretty important thing to like how, how often can you break your frame? Um, and an experience like this twice a year, I think twice a year you'll, you'll end up breaking your frame 'cause you'll just meet a bunch of other people that do life and think about life in a different way than you.

Sam Parr 29:47 I actually wanna ask you about, uh, like a frame breaking experience. Um-

Shaan Puri 29:51 Okay

Sam Parr 29:51 ... before I get into that I have to remind people that they owe us, they're in debt to us. If you just-

Shaan Puri 29:58 Yeah

Sam Parr 29:58 ... heard Shaan's story, he just went and spent the weekend creating these things to tell you about and then he like did all this work to do it. And we do that every week, three, two times a week, two to three times a week. You're in debt to us, so you owe us. This is the gentleman's agreement part where you have to go to YouTube, even if you're on iTunes or you're on podcast or you're on Spotify. You go to iTunes right now, My First Million, click subscribe, and that's our gentleman's agreement. And we'll be even, and we'll be actually more than even 'cause we're gonna keep doing this and we're working for you once you subscribe. That's all, it's like a, it's the most fair trade because once you subscribe we get in the algorithm, yada, yada, yada. But- This is the gentleman's agreement part. We can't check that you're doing this. That's why it's called the gentleman's agreement, is we just hope that you are. So please do that. Um-

Shaan Puri 30:40 Can't argue with that.

Sam Parr 30:41 You can't argue with that. That's the ... They spend-

Shaan Puri 30:43 Yeah

Sam Parr 30:43 ... literally one second to click subscribe, and we spend 30 hours a week coming up with this content. It's a very fair trade.

Shaan Puri 30:49 [laughs] [upbeat music] I can't find this client info.

Speaker 30:54 Have you heard of HubSpot? HubSpot is a CRM platform, so it shares its data across every application. Every team can stay aligned. No out-of-sync spreadsheets or dueling databases. HubSpot, grow better.

Sam Parr 31:08 I wanna ask you, uh, about a, a frame breaking thing. Now that you're ... How long has it been since the Milk Road acquisition?

Shaan Puri 31:14 Um, two months maybe. A month and a half, something like that.

Sam Parr 31:18 So you're still early into it. Um, this February 1st is technically my last day at HubSpot. That's two years. So, um, and so now I'm two years into it, and I wanted to ask you, and I have a list here, but I wanted to ask you, uh, because, uh, I know that the guys running the Milk Road now, or the owners, are, like, recruiting interesting people 'cause, like, people, like, message me, they go, "Hey, this person's recruiting me. Should I join Milk Road?"

Shaan Puri 31:44 Yeah.

Sam Parr 31:44 So, like, I'm getting all these, like, a- asks, uh, like, to, as your reference check. Um-

Shaan Puri 31:49 Uh-huh

Sam Parr 31:49 ... what have you learned so far about what it's like to be the founder of a company that's now owned by someone else? Is there anything interesting that you've learned? I have a, a, a list of a few things that are interesting to me, but is there anything you've learned?

Shaan Puri 32:02 Uh, I feel like you got a more interesting answer than me, so you go.

Sam Parr 32:04 Well, I, I'll, I'll, I'll say a few things, and these are a bit frame breaking. Um, and so the reason I'm bringing this up is because I think someone once said, like, or at least this attitude exists a lot in Silicon Valley, where they're like, "What's your exit plan?" And then everyone's like, "Fuck exit plans. Don't have an exit plan. Uh, you're not building things to sell. Great things get bought, they don't get sold," or something like that. And I actually think that's nonsense. I actually think if you want, you can build a company where you're like, "I'm gonna exit in, like, four or six years or two years, and I'm gonna make, like, tens of millions or hundreds of millions," whatever. Like, you can build a company like that, and I think it can be really successful. Um, and so one of, of, a couple frame breaking things that I had. The first one, building something from scratch is a very, very rare skill, and one or two focused entrepreneurs with close to no money can probably do more in six months than a 50-person team with millions of dollars in 12 months inside of a large organization. And that was actually really challenging to me. I remember when HubSpot said they wanted to buy us, and I'm like, "Dog, just launch your own thing." Like, I don't-

Shaan Puri 33:08 [laughs]

Sam Parr 33:08 Why would you do ... You know what I mean? And being in, at HubSpot now for two years, I see it's really hard. The reason it's really hard is the creative types who are, who are bold enough to go and build something, they either aren't working at that company because they're out doing their own thing, or they're just stuck in this political game where they wanna impress their boss. And it's not because a company's bad, it's just this is the natural thing. They don't wanna embarrass themselves, they don't have a significant amount of upside to see the win, they don't get the dopamine rush of the sale coming into Shopify, and it's actually really, really, really hard to build something from scratch. And so it's worth it to them just to buy something that's already working. Do you agree with that?

Shaan Puri 33:47 100%. Um, and you can see it. When an acquisition happens, the velocity of progress slows down like molasses. It is, uh, it's, it's, like, kind of remarkable. Now, that doesn't mean it fails, but the velocity definitely slows down. Other things go better, but the velocity and the pace and the sort of like, um, yeah, the aggression and productivity I think go down.

Sam Parr 34:10 And that's what I describe as anxiety goes way down. As an entrepreneur, your anxiety goes way down, your frustration way up. That's the trade-off that you're gonna make. However, this is another thing where I made this mistake where I would dismiss big companies and I would call them idiots. That's actually, in my experience, not true. In talking to a lot of people, sometimes it's, it's false. They are idiots. But sometimes, um, operating, like, if you're around good operators, just like a good employee at a big company, they can be significantly better operators. And a lot of the things that we make fun of, bureaucracy, meetings, things like that, that creates redundancy. And if you do it correct, redundancy creates, um, predictability, and predictability creates value, and that's why your anxiety goes down. And so a lot of that big company stuff, a lot of it's bullshit. A lot of it's really necessary, and the people inside those companies can actually operate things really, really well. Do you agree with that?

Shaan Puri 35:07 Um, I agree that that's true. I wouldn't say that that's the main value. The main value that I saw inside of a big company was that when you're big, um, you have usually two things. One is distribution.

Sam Parr 35:24 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 35:24 So you could take something that doesn't have a lot of distribution and give it more distribution, or you could simply say, "I don't really need to innovate. Let all these other people innovate, and I'll just follow because I have size. And so when I have size, I don't need speed." Right? Um, and so it's like a sumo wrestler versus a, you know, a, a sprinter or like a, uh, you know, a, a, a lightweight, you know, a, a lightweight wrestler or something like that. And so you basically trade that distribution and size for, for speed. I think that's the, the first thing. And, um, very hard to have both. Um, and, you know, the, uh, the ... When you're at a startup, the expe- uh, the mistakes are very expensive, but when you're at a ... Or sorry, when you're at a startup, the mistakes are not expensive. Like, I don't know how many things you did at The Hustle that were, like, dumb or were stupid or whatever. You're just like, "Roll it back." Um, you know, at the beginning especially, you know, whatever. I don't have any customers anyways. I don't have much revenue to lose anyways. I don't have a reputation to be burned. The press is not watching me. Uh, Twitter doesn't care what I do. Whereas when you're big, then your every move matters and every mistake is quite expensive. Um, and so you have to be a little more careful. And so careful is not a bug, it's a feature. When it's a big company. And so I, I started to appreciate that. They're not slow because they're stupid. They're slow actually because they're smart, because they don't need to go fast 'cause they got size. And ex- ex- uh, mistakes are expensive, so they don't take, they don't try to make too many mistakes and, um, you know, by going too fast.

Sam Parr 36:54 And that brings me to my second to last point, which is a lot of cool shit that you and I like to make, you, you and I are zero to one people. Like, uh, by definition we're not the best at one to whatever. But a lot of the cool shit is completely illogical or really stupid, and a lot of the best stuff starts that way. This podcast, you called it My First Million, pretty horrible name. Um, my thing was called The Hustle, pretty bad name, and it was just a newsletter. That's kind of like not... Like, when I pitch it to bigger companies, they go, "This is stupid. This will never be big." And the reason why it existed anyway was because I was beholden to no one. We just said, "Meh, whatever. Screw it. We're just gonna do it." When you're launching something within a big company, you have to have logic, you have to have reasoning, you have to, like, make a point because you have to justify it for someone to fund it. Uh, whereas when you're a nobody, just two guys, you say, "Nah, screw it, we're just gonna do this. We're gonna have an anti-Black Friday sale where we charge more this Friday as opposed to less-"

Shaan Puri 37:51 Right

Sam Parr 37:52 ... "and it... just 'cause. Just 'cause we want to, 'cause this is funny." It's completely illogical, and illogical stuff works. Not all the time.

Shaan Puri 37:59 And-

Sam Parr 37:59 But sometimes

Shaan Puri 37:59 ... when I was hanging out with the, the 70-year-old person, I was explaining, I said, "Yeah, I'm thinking about what I wanna do next, and, you know, I really wanna pick a good project and I wanna pick a right, the right way to spend my time." Um, and he goes, uh, "Picking is hard." And he goes, "And the hard thing about picking is that today she might look like a pimply, chubby person, you know, here. But 12 months from now, as you s- take that idea, you start dating it, and then you kinda pivot over here, you change one thing, get a new wardrobe, all of a sudden she's 120 pounds."

Sam Parr 38:41 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 38:42 "She's, you know, she's, uh, got her PhD, and she just got word in the mail she's inheriting $72 million." [laughs]

Sam Parr 38:48 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 38:48 And he's like [laughs] he gave me this analogy, and he goes, "That's the problem with picking, is that the best things don't always look like the best things up front." This goes back to a Peter Thiel saying, which is, "The best ideas are things that sound like bad ideas but are actually good ideas." And, um, why? Because those things have the least competition. Those things are the least done. Those things have the highest upside 'cause they're the most greenfield. Uh, things that are obviously good ideas a- are super competitive. Things that are actually bad ideas, doesn't matter how hard you work, they're bad ideas. So the sweet spot is something that sounds like a bad idea but is actually a good idea. And that's, you know, this guy put it in a, uh, you know, you know, a, a different kind of analogy that I, I appreciated and, uh, I guess this, I'm glad I didn't, you know, say who 'cause, you know, people would get mad about that analogy, but I thought it was hilarious. [laughs]

Sam Parr 39:36 That's good.

Shaan Puri 39:37 And I understood what he meant, which is, you know, when you started Tell- when you started The Hustle, you were like, "Oh, great. It's this conference." And I was like, you know, "Conference, okay." Immediately like, a lot of work, s- you know, seasonal.

Sam Parr 39:51 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 39:51 Doesn't get that big. Who cares?

Sam Parr 39:53 If your product-

Shaan Puri 39:54 Uh, you charge-

Sam Parr 39:54 ... can get rained out, it's kinda not good.

Shaan Puri 39:56 Yeah, yeah. You have $200 tickets to your conference, like, all right, Sam, good luck. You know? And then you kinda fumbled and then you were like, "Oh, okay, conference is working, but, you know, conference ain't where it's at. But I've been using content to drive ticket sales. Maybe I should just do this content thing through a newsletter." And then even that was still sort of pimply and didn't really s- "A newsletter? I mean, uh, dude, people over here are making flying cars and Uber and, uh, you're doing a newsletter? Like, get some ambition, bro. Like, you know, that, th- that can't be big, possibly," right? Like, aren't newsletters just like a personal thing people send out to their 50 friends? And you kinda figured it out as you go. And then now people are like, you know, how many fricking I wanna build the next Hustle, you know, Hustle for X, you know? How many people pitch you that, myself included. Milk Road was a H- a H- hustle copy. After I made fun of you for the, for doing a newsletter back in the day, I was like, you know, I didn't invest in your thing 'cause I was like, "I don't think that's gonna get huge," right?

Sam Parr 40:50 Right.

Shaan Puri 40:50 And I was like, but you knew some- you figured something out along the way that was not obvious upfront.

Sam Parr 40:56 And by the way, The Hustle is very close to crossing three million subscribers. And that brings me to my last point, which is planning is something that I had never done. Like, when people were talking about OKRs, which is like a framework for running your company, they would put it on a quarterly scale, and I'm like, "Yeah, how about a weekly? How about a weekly one?" So we could like, every single day we're gonna create something new, and that's really important for starting out, and I don't think you should plan too much.

Shaan Puri 41:24 Right.

Sam Parr 41:24 Um, you call it worry about A, B, Z, uh-

Shaan Puri 41:28 Yeah

Sam Parr 41:28 ... which is, I, I, I actually came a- we, we both, yeah, uh, separately had like the same thing, where I'm like I care about steps one and steps two, and then, like, I'll worry about step... I think about step 10 as inspiration, but I don't worry about three, four, and five.

Shaan Puri 41:40 Yes.

Sam Parr 41:40 Um, and so that's important when starting stuff. But one, I don't know when that point is, maybe 10 million, 100 million in revenue. I don't know what it is, but planning is needed, it's necessary, and it's incredibly important, and that's what big companies do really well, or they try to do it well. And as I'm growing my new thing, I'm trying to, like, bake this in of, like, planning and not worrying about, like, uh, looking, like, like, you know, I could have, like, a quarterly plan. It's okay. I could, I could even have, like, a six-month plan. I remember when we were selling The Hustle, we sold when we were around four years old, and they wanted, like, a five-year projection, and I'm like, "What?" Like, uh, tha- that's, that, that's not even, like, I, I can't even comprehend five years. I don't even know if I'm gonna be interested in this.

Shaan Puri 42:25 Yeah, poor Forma.

Sam Parr 42:25 Yeah. [laughs]

Shaan Puri 42:26 Forma deez nuts, what are you talking about?

Sam Parr 42:28 Yeah. [laughs]

Shaan Puri 42:29 Like [laughs] you, you want me to write down a lie?

Sam Parr 42:31 Yeah. [laughs]

Shaan Puri 42:32 [laughs] My lies are verbal.

Sam Parr 42:34 It was-

Shaan Puri 42:34 There's no paper trail.

Sam Parr 42:34 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 42:35 You're trying to get me to write this down? [laughs]

Sam Parr 42:36 Dude, it was ridiculous, and now I understand, like, it's actually okay to, like, kinda have some of these plans. So anyway, that's my list of things that I've learned, like, being, like, l- uh, seeing the buyer's, um, perspective just a little bit, and I was just curious if you had a- any insights. It might be too early yet.

Shaan Puri 42:53 Well, let me tell you the different things that they've done. So first they hired a bunch of people. We were running the thing with basically three or four people and then one, one freelancer, right? Like, it was very, very lean. They, you know, basically one dude wrote the email every day, and then me or Ben edited it. And that was like, that's how the, the, the whole product, the whole product was basically created by that. Now, there's like a second writer, there's an editor, there's a head of content. It's like who, who, who are all these people and what are they doing? [laughs] Uh, is the, is the content getting better? I'm not sure, right? Like, but it- they've hired up people which, like you said, builds redundancy. 'Cause if the main guy got sick, which happened a couple times, it was like red-

Sam Parr 43:32 Wow

Shaan Puri 43:32 ... you know, red alert.

Sam Parr 43:33 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 43:33 Um, you know, if we got a fact wrong, it's like, "Oh, I, I didn't have time to check it," you know? Like, you know, we didn't, we didn't have those things in place. And so, you know, I think they've, they've basically taken... I would just say in general they took a longer term view. They were like, "Okay, we're gonna be doing this for a number of years, so what do we need to get to this point two years from now? And let's start taking those steps today." Where I was like, "All right, next month what would be sweet?" [laughs]

Sam Parr 43:58 Yeah, you're like, I'm just-

Shaan Puri 43:59 Like a-

Sam Parr 43:59 Well, 'cause you're in sur-

Shaan Puri 44:00 ... literally like goal planning exercise. I had, I had-

Sam Parr 44:01 You're in survival mode

Shaan Puri 44:02 ... I had a, even if it was, was a survival mode, 'cause it was like, okay, w- we got the business working, it would be like I just wanted every day to be a new adventure. And like that's not how these people think when they are like long-term oriented. They want each day to not be an adventure. They want each day to be like, you know, it's the difference between, you know, um, you know, people who go for these like long hikes and, uh, you know, a sprinter. And like, you know, I was just more of a sprinter. And so literally our goal planning we would say like, "What's the minimum thing that would feel like a win?" We call it a good win. "Oh, that was good." And then what's the F yeah win, where we would be like, "F yeah, dude, we did ABC," right? That happened. And that's, and we, that would create our goal, and then we would shoot for the F yeah, and we would make sure we don't miss the good. Um, and like that's what we did every single month, and it was a little bit more, um... And if we didn't hit it, it was a problem. Like, I immediately was like soul-searching, like, "Everybody stop and let's figure out-"

Sam Parr 44:59 Who do I fire?

Shaan Puri 44:59 "... like where we've gone wrong. I'm ready to change every- anything and everything," which is not always the right approach. Sometimes it is, right? Like, these things serve you, and then sometimes they hurt you. And so I would say these guys, they put more money into growth, they hired more people, and they don't panic. [laughs] That's the three differences between us. Uh, and I think their approach has some bad things, and I ha- think it has some great things, and we'll see, you know, how it all plays out now.

Sam Parr 45:23 I think I read somewhere where someone was like... I was reading some like thing about masculinity and like the difference between a man and a boy, and like a d- a real man doesn't let like lots of different, uh, or doesn't let like shallow input change his emotions and change his plans. And I remember when I was running my company I would always get emotional. I'm like, "No, man, if I gotta be a man I gotta like be calm and I can't panic." And I used to think like, oh no, it was cool to be like Mark Zuckerberg and seeing, go, go in and see, oh, this isn't right, you're fucking fired. It's like no, real men don't do that, you know? They can, like they don't panic and they don't freak out, and that kinda changed my perspective on that a little bit.

Shaan Puri 46:01 Yeah. My trainer, he's been teaching me this. He's like, okay, so like, you know, you're doing a set, so you're, you're bench, you're bench pressing or whatever, and let's say you picked a weight that the first, you know, three reps, four reps are easy, the next four reps are getting harder, and then the last three, four reps, let's say you're going to 12, uh, the last four reps you're like sh- you know, it's kinda shaky and you want to spot. But more than anything, I don't know for you, but for me it was always like, "Get to the end."

Sam Parr 46:30 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 46:30 It's like I wanna c- I don't wanna quit. I don't wanna quit. I wanna get there, but like I would start rushing, and when you rush your form changes. And when you rush you don't actually have that time under tension that actually builds the muscle.

Sam Parr 46:41 Look at you. Wow. Time under tension.

Shaan Puri 46:45 TUT.

Sam Parr 46:45 Yeah. [laughs]

Shaan Puri 46:45 Or TUT. [laughs] And so he's, uh-

Sam Parr 46:47 That's classic, classic muscle building words. I like it.

Shaan Puri 46:51 Don't make me say glycogen.

Sam Parr 46:52 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 46:54 So, so he's like, um, he's like, "Those last four reps, you're trying to get them done, but that's where al- the, all the gains are in that, that last bit." And he's like, "That's where I want you to show poise, slow, and actually slow it down. Like, don't just like do normal speed. Go even slower than your, your normal pace was to maximize what you get out of it." And so then that became this like, okay, when you feel that sizzle, when you feel that burn, that's, the reaction is not panic and rush, it's poise. So the, I took that, I was like, okay, that's the lesson in the gym, but the gym is just the metaphor for life, so now I'm doing that same thing everywhere. As soon as I feel that sizzle and that burn and I just wanna get out of there or I wanna get done with it, I'm like, "No, no, no. Now's the time to be poised and slow it down." And so that's been working wonders in the business world 'cause it's like just when everybody thinks shit's hitting the fan, I'm like, all right, this is the time where we, where we, where we go poised, we lock in, and we calmly address the situation versus trying to react, overreact and react to a, to a, a stimulus.

Sam Parr 47:59 This, my friend, is called growth, Shaan.

Shaan Puri 48:01 [laughs]

Sam Parr 48:01 You are experiencing growth. Congratulations. You're doing it right in front of all of our eyes and in our ears.

Shaan Puri 48:06 [laughs]

Sam Parr 48:06 You are showing growth. What topic you wanna do next? We're in a weird middle-

Shaan Puri 48:11 Um, all right. We got five minutes

Sam Parr 48:11 ... we're in, yeah.

Shaan Puri 48:12 Let's do, um, do you have anything little? Let me see if I got something little.

Sam Parr 48:17 By the way, while you're looking, you have to tell me

Sam Parr 48:19 what to do for my researcher. Now I have 400 applicants. I've narrowed it down to 200, and I'm like I don't know what to do with these people. You have to tell me how to like...

Shaan Puri 48:26 You should just tell them to do, basically just give them the assignment, which is, uh, I'll, I'll tell you what to do. O- o- okay, I'll, I'll tell you how to do this. Okay. So the, what I would do is the best way to work together, the best way to know if you wanna work with them is to just do a project rather than inter- interview them. You don't wanna interview 400 or even 20 people. That would just take up way too much time. So you give them all the assignment. The assignment is, "Hey, every week, um, here's the things that we do. Uh, I want you to surface interesting nuggets that I might find interesting and wanna-

Sam Parr 48:54 I did that

Shaan Puri 48:55 ... go learn about and talk about."

Sam Parr 48:55 All 400 people did that, dude.

Shaan Puri 48:57 Okay. So who are the best 25 from that? And did you do it for like two or three... Like, have them do it for like two weeks. Be like, uh, you know, "Hey, do this for two weeks. If you do it-" I'm gonna pay you, you know, I'll pay you 250 bucks if you get through all the, all the things. I- that might be a lot of money, I don't know, do the math. But, like, do something so they're not working totally for free. Um, or cut the bottom, like, 200 people right away, and then just be like, "Hey, do this." 'Cause, 'cause I think it's easy to do once, and it's really hard to do for three weeks straight. A lot of people could do a great MFM podcast once. I don't know how many of them could do this podcast 100 times, you know, 100 episodes a year, and that's what we do. And so you kinda need a researcher who's able to c- who has some inflow of information that g- that they can steadily be curating good stuff. And then the second thing is give them a couple of r- uh, research topics. So it'd be like, uh, the way I do it is somet- I give them an assignment to bring me interesting nuggets, but then I bring nuggets and I say, "Hey, take this story and, uh, I want you to research. Here's what I want." And I basically gave them a format. So my format for them is you wa- I want you to come up with the frame. So the frame is the, the framing of the topic. How will I just bring this up out of the blue on MFM, right? So let's say there's some interesting growth hack. Uh, the frame might be, you know, "Here's three of my favorite growth hacks that I've seen in the past year." Right? Because just talking about this one randomly doesn't work. Or let's say it's a growth hack, but actually, um... Or le- le- let me give the example. The nugget was, um, I bought a car from an anonymous account on Twitter. So that's a cool frame. That's like a hook for a good story. But we changed it to the guy mafia.

Sam Parr 50:36 The guy mafia.

Shaan Puri 50:36 So I bought it from car dealership guy. But you know what? There are all these guys, and actually maybe there's a bigger topic here that's called the guy mafia, and people like that, that frame, right?

Sam Parr 50:44 All right. That's good.

Shaan Puri 50:44 So it's, I, I teach them. I'm like, "You gotta hi- hit me with a possible frame. Then you gotta have the supporting, like, evidence. Like, what are the four or five interesting bullet points, talking points that I could say about this thing that would ma- make you say, 'Oh, that's cool. That's interesting.' And then what's the take or the takeaway?" And the take or the takeaway in, let's say, for the guy mafia was w- it was first it was, "Here's why this works." But then I was like, "No, no, a better take would be, 'Here's what I think people should be doing. You should be doing this with a girl anonymous account, 'cause I think it'll get more followers. You should be doing it in all these other categories, and then don't monetize with a pa- a newsletter or a paid c- paid community-

Sam Parr 51:22 Sell the thing, yeah

Shaan Puri 51:22 ... monetize by selling the actual thing, like selling me the car." And so that was the take. And so I t- I teach them. Like, here's a little Excel table, and for every story you gotta fill out the frame, the talking points, and the take. And, um, I see if they're getting good at that.

Sam Parr 51:37 Dude, I'm gonna, I, I need to-

Shaan Puri 51:38 Most people, by the way, are very bad at that. That's okay. I'm, like, our skill is we need to be able to do that, but them doing it poorly is still super helpful, 'cause you're like, "No, no, that's a shitty frame. The frame's gotta be this," and that's still better than a blank page. Um-

Sam Parr 51:50 I need you to send me all this.

Shaan Puri 51:51 Yeah, I will.

Sam Parr 51:53 Yeah, I need, I need help with this. It's been very challenging.

Shaan Puri 51:56 Yeah, these are the, these are the tricks of the trade that other people... We're giving these out for free now. I remember once, remember the, that TV show, um, the P. Diddy one where he's trying to find a rapper?

Sam Parr 52:05 Yeah, and he's like, "I need you to go to Brooklyn and get me some milk."

Shaan Puri 52:07 [laughs]

Sam Parr 52:08 And he, like, makes him walk across the bridge. You know what I'm talking about?

Shaan Puri 52:11 [laughs]

Sam Parr 52:12 He, like, makes him walk across to get him, like, a cupcake, like, five miles.

Shaan Puri 52:15 'Cause that's how he started his career. He was a runner-

Sam Parr 52:17 Yeah

Shaan Puri 52:17 ... at a record label, and he had to go get shit. Um, but he had this thing where he was in the studio and he's like, he's like, "Uh, sing it," and then they, they sang it, and he's like, "S- uh, sing it again." They're like, "Wow, it wasn't that good?" He goes, "No, we need to make a double." They're like, "What's a double?" He's like, "A double is you say the same exact thing, and we layer the two audio tracks. It makes your voice sound more full and powerful, and it just sounds better." And he turned to the camera, he's like, "I shouldn't be saying all this shit on camera." And, uh, and I remember literally, like, I was in seventh grade when that show came out, and I was like, "I just heard a trick of the trade."

Sam Parr 52:48 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 52:48 And I never forgot that even though I'm not a rapper. I never used it. But literally, I was like, "Make space in the brain." He just kinda made it sound like he just gave me an insider tactic. And I literally, like, still remember this now. I'm 34 years old, and I still remember this.

Sam Parr 53:03 That's hilarious. That's hilarious.

Shaan Puri 53:04 [laughs]

Sam Parr 53:05 "I just heard a t..." [laughs] That's good.

Shaan Puri 53:07 Um, all right. Let's get out of here. [upbeat music]