If you aren't selling these 4 things, you Will Fail

Shaan Puri 0:00 Can I show you the highest value comment on Hacker News that I've ever seen?

Sam Parr 0:06 Yeah, that has a lot of weight. [upbeat music]

Shaan Puri 0:13 This is from, like, years and years ago, but it's this comment about sales, 'cause Hacker News is full of engineers, and they're like, "Hey," like, "You know, I suck at sales. Anybody can help me get better at this?" And, uh, this guy wrote seven points, and I just nodded my head so vigorously that my C4, C5 is a little sore, so let me just give you this here.

Sam Parr 0:31 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 0:32 So the guy goes, "Yeah, there's tons of resources to help you with sales, but I'll start with... I'll try to offer some simple tips. Number one, sales is a lot like golf. You can make it so complicated that it's almost impossible, or you can simply walk up and hit the ball. I've been leading sales orgs for about 20 years. My advice is to walk up and hit the ball. Number two, sales are about people, and it's about problem-solving. It's not about tech, or solutions, or chemicals, or lines of code, or artichokes. It's about people. It's about solving problems. Number three, people buy four things and four things only, ever. Those four things are time, money, sex, w- and approval or peace of mind. If you try to sell anything other than those four things, you will fail" [laughs] .

Sam Parr 1:09 That's so good.

Shaan Puri 1:09 "Number four, people buy aspirin always. They'll buy vitamins sometimes, and... but it'll be unpredictable. Sell aspirin. Number five, I say in every talk that I give that all things being equal, people will buy from their friends, so make everything else equal and then go make a lot of friends" [laughs] .

Sam Parr 1:27 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 1:28 Um, number six, "Being valuable and useful is all you'll ever need to sell things. Help people out. Send them interesting posts. Write birthday cards. Record videos. Be sharing your ideas of how they could grow their business. Introduce them to people who would benefit from knowing each other, and get out of the way. Expect nothing in return. Do this consistently and authentically, and people will find ways to give you money. I promise. Number seven, no one cares about your quota, your payroll, your opex, your burn rate. No one. They care about the problem you're solving for them. There are more than $100 trillion in the economy just waiting for you to breathe it in. Good luck" [laughs] .

Sam Parr 1:59 [laughs] That's awesome.

Shaan Puri 2:00 Who is this god of Hacker News? [laughs]

Sam Parr 2:04 Are you reading any books?

Shaan Puri 2:05 [laughs] I am reading Influence again by Robert Cialdini.

Sam Parr 2:09 Why are you rereading, uh, Robert Cialdini's Influence?

Shaan Puri 2:12 Because as the great Buddhist proverb says, "No man steps in the same river twice, for he is not the same man and the river is not the same river."

Sam Parr 2:20 Oh, my God.

Shaan Puri 2:21 Uh, you know [laughs] .

Sam Parr 2:22 Have you... How long have you w- waited to use that one? [laughs]

Shaan Puri 2:26 You start reading books, and what do you do? You just start turn- you're turning into a quote machine. No, but really, I think, you know, reading the best books again at different times in your life, it's a totally different book. You think you've read it, and what I've found is you, you remember f- you know, shockingly little of books. And so going back and reading great books is, um, is like, you know, the gift that keeps giving in that sense. So, so that's what I'm doing.

Sam Parr 2:50 Uh, did you ever read the blog post that I wrote about Influence, his book?

Shaan Puri 2:54 No.

Sam Parr 2:55 Uh, in 2014, I had just read his book, and I wanted to implement what i- what he, he talked about, and he has this rule called the rule of reciprocity, which basically just says, uh, let's say that n- uh, neighbor one goes to neighbor two. Let's say I go to Shaan and I say, "Hey, can I borrow a cup of c- sugar?" And you say, "Yeah, I got you." The next day, if you come to me and say, "Hey, can I borrow your car for the day?"

Shaan Puri 3:17 Right.

Sam Parr 3:17 Even though, even though those two asks aren't even remotely equal, I, because of the rule of reciprocity, am very likely to lend you my car because the rule of reciprocity states that if you do something nice for someone, they are, they have a high chance of doing something nice in exchange to you even if the, they aren't equal. And, uh, that's like how society is, is built, one could say, is like based off the rule of reciprocity. So when I was a kid, I was, uh, 24 years old. There was a motorcycle for sale I think for $1,800, and I went to buy it, and I took photos and documented all of this as I went. And I was like, "Hey, uh, you have the motorcycle for eighte- $1800. Let me see it. Let me check it out. Awesome. Oh, by the way, uh, I'm really sorry I'm late. I, I just, I wanted to stop and get a Coke 'cause it was kind of hot outside. I got one for you if you want one. Do you want one?" And he goes, "Yeah, sure. Thanks." Um, and then, uh, as I started talking to him, and I'm like, "Look, I love this motorcycle, but, like, I'm a young guy. I don't have a lot of money. I know you're asking for 18. Could, could you do 14?" And he goes, "You know, you brought me the Coke. You seem like a nice kid. Yeah, I guess I can do that" [laughs] .

Shaan Puri 4:18 [laughs]

Sam Parr 4:18 And so, like, there's a blog post where I took photos of myself, like when he was, when he was, like, turned around, like signing the paperwork, I, like s- took the ph- took the photo. But anyway, the rule of reciprocity is pretty amazing.

Shaan Puri 4:29 [laughs] So let me tell you a funny follow-up story to that. I remember you telling the story about the Diet Coke and the negotiation and how you always bring two Diet Cokes to a negotiation, correct? You've told me this before, like 10 years ago, right?

Sam Parr 4:41 Yeah, I try to bring a gift. Yeah, I try to bring something.

Shaan Puri 4:43 Well, I took it as Diet Coke. So here's what happened. I, uh, recently, uh, uh, I was coaching this high school basketball team, as you know, and anytime I'm doing a project, I wanna try to make it as interesting, as cool as possible. And what I do sometimes is I do things that are maybe, like, not the default way of doing things. So I was trying to create content for the team so that the team would have, like, really cool, like media going with it. And so the principal and the AD did not like it.

Sam Parr 5:08 Are you talking about the, the post that you made about your doing, being a coach?

Shaan Puri 5:14 Oh, being a coach, yeah.

Sam Parr 5:15 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 5:15 And how we were gonna try to have this, take this underdog team and try to get them to be state champions, and that was g- we were gonna record the vlog ar- along the way. So post the vlog, it gets 20,000 views in the first 24 hours, but one of those views was the principal or the AD. They call me, and they're like, "Hey, you need to take this down." So we say, "Okay, we'll take it down." And he says, "I wanna meet with you. M- be in my office Monday." And so-

Sam Parr 5:36 Dude, you're getting called to the principal's office, man. You're in school. [laughs]

Shaan Puri 5:38 I got called into the principal's office. And so here I am. I thought I was past this. I'm, I'm now in my late 30s, and I'm going. I'm nervous. I'm going to the principal's office, and I bring... Uh, so we're c- we're recording a vlog of this thing, and I'm, I'm telling the vlog. I said, "You know, my friend Sam taught me this, this trick-

Sam Parr 5:53 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 5:53 ... this little, little, the law of reciprocity. Let me t- let me put you guys on some game. Um, you know, people have this really high likelihood to return the favor if you do a small favor for them." I said, "Watch." I said, "I'm, I'm gonna be late to this meeting, but I'm gonna stop and get this Diet Coke because it's the most important part of the meeting."

Sam Parr 6:09 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 6:09 And I'm like, "Follow me." The vlog camera follows me, and we get two Diet Cokes. And we go, and I'm so ready for this, and I get to the meeting, and, uh, we sit down, and I'm like... I don't fully remember the line that you said, uh, about like how to do it. I think there's a r- actually a really specific way in the book that Robert Cialdini describes it, which is, um, two people are doing a psych study. The guy walks out, and he comes back, and he says, "Hey, they, um... I asked the guy if we, if I could have a Coke. He said yes, so I brought you one, too." Um, so it just kinda, kinda sounds like very like, you know, thoughtful in, in passing, and you said a s- a very similar thing. And so I walk in, and I just go... He's like, "Hey, guys." And I go, "You want a Diet Coke?"

Sam Parr 6:53 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 6:54 And then he's like... And he just goes, "No, thanks." And now I have two Diet Cokes.

Sam Parr 6:58 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 6:58 I go, "I have two." I go, "I have two." And he goes, "I'm all set." And then I- And the vlog camera's on me, and it's like The Office. I look at the camera.

Sam Parr 7:08 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 7:09 And it's like, this is not going as planned. I'm Michael Scott-ing this. And then I open up the Diet Coke, almost explodes 'cause I've been like-

Sam Parr 7:18 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 7:18 ... you know, nervous the whole time. Luckily, doesn't totally foam over, and I proceed to drink two Diet Cokes while this guy absolutely shuts down my program.

Sam Parr 7:26 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 7:26 And so that's the law of reciprocity gone wrong.

Sam Parr 7:28 [laughs] That is so funny. That is so funny. That is so good. [laughs]

Shaan Puri 7:35 [laughs]

Sam Parr 7:36 All right, I have a story for you. [upbeat music] Hey, everyone, really quick, if you're enjoying this episode on CEO stuff, so delegating, having hard conversations with your team, hiring, then I've got something for you. So the team at HubSpot, they actually went and put together a bunch of best practices that Shaan and I use in our own companies, and they've put it together in something that's really easy to read and understand. And so if you wanna just save yourself 10 years of headache and heartache, then you should check it out. I wish we had this a long time ago. Would've helped me a lot. But there should be a QR code on your screen that you can scan or a link in the description, so check it out. It's totally free and totally awesome. So I told you the other day how I like, for the first time ever, I, like, went out to dinner with someone, uh, and I'm, like, such a homebody. [laughs] Well, my friend-

Shaan Puri 8:21 What are you talking about? I visited you in New York. You literally walk around New York with a briefcase and, like, you know, business cards and Altoids in your pocket-

Sam Parr 8:30 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 8:30 ... trying to meet people riding the subway. You're, you're out. Don't try to take my shtick. I'm the homebody.

Sam Parr 8:35 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 8:35 You're the, you're the guy who's out there.

Sam Parr 8:36 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 8:38 But go ahead.

Sam Parr 8:38 I j- uh, I just carry the briefcase. [laughs] My wife's like, "Why do you have this?" I'd be like, "To do business."

Shaan Puri 8:45 Yeah.

Sam Parr 8:45 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 8:46 Sam cosplays a businessman in New York City.

Sam Parr 8:50 I'm doing business, Sarah. I need a, I need the case. [laughs]

Shaan Puri 8:54 [laughs]

Sam Parr 8:55 It's got the crayons and the snacks. Get off my back. [laughs]

Shaan Puri 8:58 Yeah, when, when you said attaché, I was like, "Okay, that's enough."

Sam Parr 9:01 [laughs] So, uh, I, uh, I've been hanging out with this guy named Mark. Um, have you heard of GLG?

Shaan Puri 9:09 Yeah, the, uh, expert network. So you, you know, you wanna find out, uh, whether NVIDIA chips are gonna go up or down, maybe you would call someone in the sup- in the, uh, in one of the buyers who's, like, an expert buyer who'd give you insights about the industry. Huge business.

Sam Parr 9:22 Yeah, and I've become good buddies with him. I've hung out with him a bunch because he lives in my neighborhood. And, uh, basically GLG, like you just explained, huge business. They filed, uh, to go public at one point, um, and so some of their numbers were public. It, it does something like over $100 million a year in profit and cash flow. Very amazing company. And we were just hanging out. He owns, uh, another business in the community space now that he loves, and he sits down, and he starts telling me. I'm like, "What are your hobbies? What else are you into?" And he told me this crazy story. So I want you to Google something. Google, um, it's called United Hatzalah.

Shaan Puri 9:55 Okay, I found it. Okay. Equipment aid. Uh, looks like a charity of some kind.

Sam Parr 10:01 Yes.

Shaan Puri 10:01 Volunteer medical emergency services.

Sam Parr 10:02 Exactly. So listen to this story. So he tells me this story. So Mark, he started GLG when he was only, like, 23, 24. Pretty young guy. When he's something like 27, 28, he meets this guy named Eli. Eli was either an ambulance driver or was at the scene where this happened, but basically a kid was choking on his food, and the am- they called an ambulance. The ambulance didn't make it there in time, and the kid died. And he was like, it, it really sat with him. He, he was really bothered by that because they la- come to find out that there actually was a doctor, like, next door or, like, down the block or something like that, within, like, a pretty close vicinity. And he's like, "It really stinks that this ambulance took 15 or how- however many minutes to get here when there was a guy right here that could've s- like, cured this kid and he didn't have to die." And so, uh, Eli ends up starting this very small thing with only, like, 6 or 12 people, where they basically self-organize and they train themselves on how to do very simple things like CPR, the Heimlich maneuver, uh, and, and they train themselves on that, and then eventually went to, like, they could even, like, do, like, an emergency baby delivery. And he ha- started a nonprofit where he would actually give out these, like, 40-pound backpacks that had, like, very, uh, a small amount of oxygen, uh, a baby kit system, so, or a, a, a baby delivery kit so you can, like, deliver a baby in case of an emergency. Like these, like, really, uh, uh, essential supplies, and he starts telling Mark about how he's got these things going. And Mark's like, "That's awesome. This thing could be it. This could be, like, a really big thing." And Mark gives him $18,000 because Mark was just getting successful, but he's like, "I have 18 grand I can give you, but I can be your co-founder, and I can help commercialize this thing and make this a huge thing." And so it's been around since, uh, for the last 18 years, and at this point, they have 18,000 volunteers in Israel. It's mostly, it's, it's only in Israel. They answer something like 2,000 calls a day, and the mission statement is very simple. They say that on average it takes something like 12 or 10 minutes for an ambulance to arrive to you. Our goal is to get there in 90 seconds in anywhere in Israel.

Shaan Puri 12:07 Wow.

Sam Parr 12:08 And right now I think they do it in, like, two minutes, and Mark was telling me, he's like, "Basically, right now we are, uh..." Him and I went out to eat. He was like, "If you were a member, you would carry your bag with you at all times, and if somebody 10 floors down got, uh, got sick or something happened where, uh, they had to call an ambulance, you would be alerted, uh, because you are nearby, and you could run down and give them some type of need until the ambulance got to them, and they could actually do the real stuff. But at least you could be, like, a life-saving thing." And because of this, this company, uh, it's a nonprofit, they have saved, uh, potentially millions of people because they've done this since-

Shaan Puri 12:42 Wow

Sam Parr 12:42 ... uh, for the last 18 years. And what's interesting is they started this before iPhones before GPS, and when they started it, they actually just gave out these, like, walkie-talkies, like these radios. And now it's gotten quite sophisticated. So they, the, the, the entire foundation runs off of donations, and they are spending many tens of millions of dollars a year. And what they have noticed is like, for example, through 18 years of data, they know that heart attacks are more likely to happen in the morning, which means people are probably in their home versus the office. And so they know that they need to recruit volunteers who are on call and ready f- and they're prepared for a potential heart attack within these areas. And they have this... They actually did a YouTube video on it. They have this entire, uh, like, AI setup that they know when to predict that something bad potentially might happen and to have their 8,000-person volunteer force to do it, to be ready. And there's a few interesting things here about this. One, there's this thing called, like, G- it's called Good Samaritan law, laws. We have it in America, they have it in Israel, which basically just says, like, when you're on an airplane and the captain goes like, "Is there a doctor on board? Can someone help me?" Uh, as long as that doctor acts i- in good faith, they can't be sued by the person. You know as, it's, it's, uh, called the Good Samaritan law where it's like, as long... So, but if you are on there for pay, meaning if you're a professional, like I'm paying you money, there's an exchange of goods for you to do a service, you could potentially be sued.

Shaan Puri 14:03 Right.

Sam Parr 14:03 So Mark was like, "This thing, it needs to strictly be a nonprofit." He said the second thing, he was like, "In Israel, what's cool about this," he's like, "we have, uh, super orthodox Jews who are doing it. We have non-secular Jews who are doing it. We have Arabs, we have Muslims, we have Christians." He was like, "I've noticed that what has brought us together is not just us sitting around talking, but I can get all groups of people to come and work together on something and, and, and get their hands dirty, and it really brought us all together." And he was explaining this in a very altruistic way, and I totally got bought into it. And I was like, "Why aren't you in America?" He's like, "Well, we actually did try to, but we started in 2019 or '20, like right before COVID, and it, it was a false start. So we just haven't, we just haven't made it here." But he's like, "This 100% could work in virtually every city in America." And he was like, "It could even work in rural areas." He's like, uh, in rural areas they have volunteer firefighters. But it was really fascinating to hear all about this stuff because I think that, you know, we talk about money and for-profit stuff, but if you are like a social entrepreneur or something like that, this is a really interesting opportunity, and hearing him describe this, it was amazing.

Shaan Puri 15:07 Dude, so cool. I mean, l- I was reading the stats about it just now. It says they basically handle one call every 45 seconds.

Sam Parr 15:15 Crazy, right?

Shaan Puri 15:16 [laughs] The scale of that's crazy. There's only, there's only like 8,000 volunteers or 9,000 volunteers, so that's a lot of coverage. I mean, 2,000 calls a day, and you only have 9,000 volunteers. [laughs] Everybody's busy. [laughs] That, that, like, people-

Sam Parr 15:31 It's like-

Shaan Puri 15:31 This is not like a once in a blue moon, uh-

Sam Parr 15:34 No

Shaan Puri 15:34 ... you know, thing. This is, this is wild. The average response time is three minutes. Their goal is 90 seconds, um, that's nationwide. And, uh, 24/7 coverage, which is pretty, pretty in- incredible. It kinda makes sense in a way, right? Because I mean, what a coo- like you asked him, "What are your hobbies?" And he told you this story, which is hilarious 'cause you're probably like... He's like, "What about you?" You're like, "Skateboarding." Um [laughs]

Sam Parr 15:57 Yeah. [laughs]

Shaan Puri 15:58 So, but, but like, for, for people, I mean, to be able to be like, "Yeah, I saved a life today or this year."

Sam Parr 16:04 It gives you purpose, right?

Shaan Puri 16:05 I mean, I mean, what a, yeah. Like, what an incr- where else can you get that? That, that would be actually, like, really meaningful for people if they felt like they could join something where they could actually do that.

Sam Parr 16:15 Well, think about the people who have, like, kinda crappy jobs that they're not particularly motivated by. Like, this is something where you're like, "Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm... I can do that non-motivating thing. That pays the bills. I'm so thankful I have this. Yeah, like, I have this thing that, like, I'm, I am needed, and my, my, and, and I actually have a h- literally a life-changing impact on people."

Shaan Puri 16:32 Yeah. Yeah, that's crazy. I thought you were gonna say in the US, they just pivoted to DoorDash and became DoorDash. [laughs]

Sam Parr 16:39 Well-

Shaan Puri 16:39 This is the, this is the founding story of food delivery in America. [laughs]

Sam Parr 16:41 That is kind of interesting. Uh, but I thought this was awesome, and I was pretty inspired, like hearing... I, I think he said they, he goes, "We have, uh, 8,000 people who are part of the network," and, um, he's like, "We're growing." He's like, "We're gonna keep on growing." He's like, um, and he's like, "One doctor who is probably doing okay, but he's not wealthy, he gave us $4,000." And he's like, "I got this line where I tell them this because I believe it to be true." He was like, "You giving us $4,000 is the best donation we've ever received. Like, the fact that you are willing to do this, it is so important to us." And, and that's how they've grown to be able to spend tens of millions of dollars a year.

Shaan Puri 17:14 Very cool. Very cool. Let's see. You want a lightweight? You want, you want something quick and fun? You want something a little more-

Sam Parr 17:20 Give me fun

Shaan Puri 17:21 ... cool and deep? Did you see this

Shaan Puri 17:24 amazing, uh, it's a master class of PR by, uh, Bernard Arnault?

Sam Parr 17:30 I didn't read it. What happened?

Shaan Puri 17:31 Uh-oh.

Sam Parr 17:31 It happened this morning, right?

Shaan Puri 17:32 Oh, you gotta see this. Okay, so, [laughs] so I don't, I don't normally pay too much attention to this stuff, but check this out. So I saw this from, uh, Lulu, uh, I don't know how, Lulu Cheng. I don't know how you say her last name. Messervy? She's like the kind of GoDirect, um, founder. She, she, she's like, she was doing PR at Anduril, and now she has her own fund and whatnot.

Sam Parr 17:53 Is she the one who has the handle where it's like, "Here's how you should and should not address, uh, like, PR issues"?

Shaan Puri 17:58 Yeah, yeah. She's just, like, constantly giving founders, like, advice, and her, her philosophy is this GoDirect philosophy. So anyways, h- check this out. So the backstory is that Bernard Arnault, who you, you know probably better than I do, he's the, the titan behind, um, the luxury conglomerate LVMH. And so-

Sam Parr 18:17 And every once in a while, he's the richest man in the world.

Shaan Puri 18:20 Yeah. He, he's kinda, yeah. He floats, you know, between number one and four in the richest men in the world. And he writes this post, um, and it's just pr- titled Merci, right? Thank you in French. And he, he basically says... So, so what happened was this, um, publication in France did this, like, year-long t- kind of sort of exposé on his family, and they tried to make it as, like, juicy as possible. So they dropped a six-part investigative series called The Empire of Bernard Arnault, and it was talking about how, and it basically paints him as the last royal dynasty of France. And it describes, like, tension between his second wife- And his son-in-law, and how their Sunday family dinners are like, you know, palace intrigue type of thing, and how they're, you know, they're trying to figure out the, you know, the five heirs or j- five kids are sort of jockeying for pos- position, 'cause he's, he's now close to 80, I think. Of, of who's gonna su- succeed, you know, the, it's like basically suc- succession, but for real life. And so he... So they, they drop this whole series, and he [laughs] goes, and he goes, "Here's a thr- three-page open letter" that he, he basically posts. And I just wanna read you a little bit of this. So he goes, "Thank you." That's how he starts it. Instead of being defensive, he just starts with, "Thank you." [laughs] He goes, "It seems I am the head of quote, the last royal family of France. I'm reading this between two cups of tea, and my children, who were alerted to this over WhatsApp, um, asked me if they should now curtsy in my presence, and I told them, 'Hello, sir,' would be, would be sufficient. They burst out laughing. Um, and I, it, it, it, w- you know, this has just been a wonderful week." [laughs] And it bas- it, it says, "It seems like Le Monde has d- decided to roll out the heavy ar- artillery. Six months of investigation, two full-time journalists," blah, blah, blah. He basically like paints them as absolute overkill for what they were trying to do. "And, uh, this deserves a word, and that word shall be thank you. You know, I, I haven't been granted this treatment since I took over, you, you know, the company in 1984, and at that time, they called me The Terminator, but I far prefer the last royal family. It's far more elegant and really good for sales at Dior." [laughs] Then he continues on, and he basically says, um, uh... He, he, he goes, he goes on and he goes, "Apparently, I'm the whisperer into the ear of every president. Well, I plead guilty." And he starts naming the different presidents, and he says, "Oh, and by the way, it's not just the French, uh, you know, presidents. It's also five American presidents. I've whispered to three British prime ministers," blah, blah, blah. "And am, am I to understand that whispering into, uh, that, that only French whispers are scandalous? That a group that earns 75% of its, uh, revenue outside of Europe, um, should, should, should be sort of isolated and not be talking to leaders of these countries?" And then he, he basically just addresses point by point the accusations in the article, but does it in such a smooth, non-defensive French way where he basically turned a dis- like a, a, a diss track into a, into a giant compliment for himself. And, you know, he, he, he, he just, he addresses each term one by one. I'll give you one more. He's known as a lover of arts and tax breaks, and he's like, "Yeah, I contributed 200 million euros to the reconstruction of Notre Dame. I fund to the tune of 50 million mathematics research at the school. You know, I pay this much in taxes every single year. We employ 220,000 employees, 40,000 of them who work in France itself. Um, yeah, like, I'm sure you forgot to mention that in the research, but, you know, happy to help. Uh, you know, happy to help you here."

Sam Parr 21:47 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 21:48 And, um-

Sam Parr 21:50 God

Shaan Puri 21:50 ... and so he's just, he calls out like the wording, you know, that, that they use for, for the different things, just making them seem a little bit ridiculous. And he ends, um, w- with, "Rest assured, I will keep doing the Monde crossword, which I, which that, I must say, is excellent." [laughs]

Sam Parr 22:05 That's so good.

Shaan Puri 22:05 So he leaves with complimenting the crossword and basically inadvertently dissing the article, and I just thought, "Damn." This guy, this was like such a perfect takedown, where you normally see CEOs get really flustered. They either ignore, they deny, they go start to complain and say they're biased, and they're, it's a hit piece and, you know, play the victim, and instead, just so smooth. And I thought there's a lot that, that, uh, American CEOs could learn from this.

Sam Parr 22:32 Do you know what the biggest thing is? To use hu- humor. Bring, to bring it back to Robert Cialdini, he says the rule-

Shaan Puri 22:38 Yep

Sam Parr 22:38 ... uh, likability, how to be more likable, one of the easiest ways, I don't know if he actually said it this way, but an easy way to be more likable is to be humorous.

Shaan Puri 22:45 Make them laugh.

Sam Parr 22:45 Like, yeah, is to make people laugh and smile, and, like, make people laugh about the silliest stuff. And, like, if I heard about someone doing an article, if I was in this guy's shoes and he was doing an article about my family, I would be livid, right? I wouldn't want to laugh about this.

Shaan Puri 22:58 [laughs]

Sam Parr 22:58 I would be so angry. Um, and the fact that he could do that is awesome, and it makes him 100% more likable. I didn't know anything about him other than, like, he's a business tyco- tycoon, but now I'm like, "Oh, I'm kind of a fan of you."

Shaan Puri 23:10 Yeah, exactly. [laughs] You know, I wasn't gonna read their annual letter this year, but this, like, basically he used the intrigue of gossip, that attention, that spotlight, to say something very different, which I would say, obviously if you just hate the guy, you're gonna still hate the guy. If you love the guy, you're still gonna love the guy. But the sort of, the mass in the middle, which is folks like you and I who don't really care, aren't really paying attention, it's just one little nugget where you're like, "Hm, I like that guy." Couldn't tell you exactly what he said-

Sam Parr 23:35 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 23:35 ... but I, I liked his approach. And, and if you've ever studied, like-

Sam Parr 23:38 Isn't that a French word as well? Je ne sais quoi?

Shaan Puri 23:40 Yeah. [laughs]

Sam Parr 23:41 Like [laughs]

Shaan Puri 23:42 He's got that je ne sais quack. You know what I mean?

Sam Parr 23:44 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 23:44 Um, and it's, and people have studied this with, like, presidential debates and whatnot. It's like after the fact, you know, whether it's two hours later or two weeks later, you rarely can remember anything that was said. Um, but you do remember how that person came across, um, and, and the level of, like, sort of inadvertent, uh, trust and likability that you felt, uh, in the moment. So your, your impression lasts, although your memory for the specifics does not.

Sam Parr 24:08 Dude, what's crazy is I'm, um, I'm not aligned with Mamdani's beliefs. Uh, Mamdani, the, the mayor of New York. I'm not aligned with a lot of his beliefs. I'm not aligned with a lot of his ideas for policies. Uh, I see him talk on the internet, and I'm like, "Oh my God, you've got this dialed in."

Shaan Puri 24:22 Yeah. [laughs]

Sam Parr 24:22 You know how to be likable. It is just insane. Have you ever watched any of his videos?

Shaan Puri 24:27 Oh, yeah. And, uh, same, same exact reaction.

Sam Parr 24:29 Oh my God. Like, he just has it dialed in perfectly. I went to, um, uh, out here in, um, New York City, there was the, um, national track and field meet for, like, the profe- professionals, and he popped in to say hi. And, uh, like, it w- it got more cheers than the actual race did.

Shaan Puri 24:46 Right.

Sam Parr 24:46 And, uh, like, I, I, I really disagree with, uh, virtually everything he's about, but he just oozed the chariz- the charisma. It was crazy. It was just absolutely crazy. I've, I've... He's just been on all the time.

Shaan Puri 24:58 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. He's, he kinda ran like a Social media masterclass, right? Like, just figuring out little memorable, um, likable things to do along the way, whether it was the speech at the Knicks, or talking about like, "Oh, the like, the halal food trucks. It's $14 now for a plate of chicken. What's going on?" You know, just rather than like boring people with, with, uh, you know, political jargon.

Sam Parr 25:23 What's the second thing?

Shaan Puri 25:24 All right. Let me tell you about, uh, let me tell you about this company. So I wanna tell you about a company

Shaan Puri 25:29 that is... I had written off. I th- I just thought it's sort of like, I don't know, some archaic company, and then I saw some news recently that kind of blew my mind, some numbers, and it led me down a rabbit hole, and it's the business of Magic: The Gathering, the nerdy business of Magic: The Gathering. And I wasn't interested in this at the beginning. Let me just start with that. [laughs] If you said, "Hey, would you like to know about the business of Magic: The Gathering?" I would've just, you know, moved on to the next stall. Uh, I w- I was not paying too much attention to it, but I actually think-

Sam Parr 25:58 If you think someone would be talking to you when you guys were-

Shaan Puri 26:00 Yeah

Sam Parr 26:01 ... like urinal to urinal.

Shaan Puri 26:02 Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Like you see that-

Sam Parr 26:04 What's up, Bob? [laughs]

Shaan Puri 26:05 Is that what, what happened? [laughs]

Sam Parr 26:07 You like Magic? Do you wanna hear, do you wanna hear about the economics? [laughs]

Shaan Puri 26:13 I just feel like I wouldn't have paid attention to this, and I'm telling you, it's very, very interesting. Okay.

Sam Parr 26:18 Okay.

Shaan Puri 26:18 So the way I noticed this was, uh, Diego was telling me, he's like, "Oh, Hasbro's stock popped," and he's been going to these card collectors conventions every weekend. So he's been telling me about the Pokemon scene. He's just, he's just been getting into that like subculture. He doesn't really buy any stuff himself I, I don't think, but he, um, he's just like-

Sam Parr 26:35 Participates

Shaan Puri 26:36 ... interested in the obsession, and the fanaticism, and the like the subculture that, that exists 'cause it's like invisible to you unless you're in one of these conventions. So he's like, "Yeah, Hasbro's stock just popped," and it was because Magic just hit like an all-time high, uh, Magic: The Gathering. I'm like, "Magic: The Gathering? Isn't this like 20 years old?" And it's true. Magic: The Gathering has been compounding 17% a year on average for 17 straight years, and so the... I- it's just been this like incredible compounding machine, this franchise which sounds like, you know, it might be like a, a quick fad like Beanie Babies or-

Sam Parr 27:09 But explain what it is. So like I had the cards when I was a kid, but I don't even know if it was a game or not.

Shaan Puri 27:15 Yeah. So it's a, it's a tr- it's a game you can play. Two people can sit down, and you can kinda like have a duel, so it's like a card game, but, and this is kind of the genius of it, a lot, a lot of the fun isn't even playing the game against each other. Like Pokemon, it's about collecting. And so how did they do this? And so the s- the backstory's pretty fascinating. So for, so first of all, Hasbro is this company that owns Monopoly. They own Nerf guns. They own, uh, like, you know, they own a bunch of stuff, but like every d- you know, of every dollar that comes in, one out of every three is driven by Magic. It's like it is their cash cow. Magic will do, you know, 2 billion this year in revenue. It's been just cranking along. This was like, you know, an all-time best quarter, so you'd think like, "Is this old IP not like fizzling out?" No, no, it's like it having its best quarter ever. If you read the true backstory, you realize one thing, which is what true sort of tinkering, the power of tinkering. So this guy starts with this, he's making this game called Five Magics, and Five Magics is a game he makes, doesn't go anywhere, but he puts a lot of heart and soul and sweat into it, and he, he puts it on the shelf 'cause who cares? And then he goes along, and he's working a job, but then he creates this, he has this other idea for this like more advanced game like Robo something where you like kind of like build robots in the... It's like a board game where you're actually like building a robot. And then he pitches it to this guy who's doing this wizards game, and that guy's like, "Dude, this is too hard to build. Can you build something that's like more like kind of, you know, this sort of sci-fi lore type game, you know, this wizarding lore fantasy stuff, and make it like something simple, not the like ro- you have to build a robot, but like just like a card game or something." So he goes back, and he's thinking, and he's on a hike one day, and he has this sort of eureka moment. He's like, "Oh, I could take Five Magics, but I could change it." And he has this really good insight, which is most games like chess or checkers, um, were- at the time, were all like fixed games, meaning you open the box, and the pieces are all what they are. Monopoly, like the, the pieces are exactly what you think they are, and I'm gonna play with you, and then when we're done, we put the box d- you know, put, close the lid on the box, and the, the game stays in the box. And when Richard was growing up, he had a very unique upbringing, and that's, this is very, this is like a fascinating part of this, how these like, this like butterfly effect. So his dad moved them when he was very young to like Bangladesh and Nepal, these countries that, you know, f- totally fish out of water, didn't speak the language. And so to make friends, really the only thing he could do was play games because, uh, he didn't, he didn't know how to talk, so they had to pl- use the shared language of a game that he knew that they knew, and that game for him was marbles. And so he would go, and he would play marbles, and marbles is a very unique game where you don't go and open a box and play marbles. Each kid brings their own marble set to the game, and you play, and you can win other people's marbles. You could trade marbles, and you have your own ever-growing collection of marbles. And sometimes you'd run into a kid, he's got a marble you never seen before, and it made you just want, want to go find your own version of that marble. You didn't even know it existed. And so that was part of the allure of the whole thing. And so he has this idea of like, "Hey, what if I take that mechanic from marbles where it's this like infinite set of, of, of possibilities?" So you have your own collection. You bring the pieces to the game. It's not a game where the pieces are already inside the box. And that was the core insight for Magic: The Gathering and why 20 years later it's printing, you know, $500 million this quarter off of that single insight about like what if the players had their own collection that they would bring to the game ra- they would walk around with rather than like a fixed set of pieces.

Sam Parr 30:44 It, it's a, right now it's doing 2 billion a year in revenue?

Shaan Puri 30:48 It's on pace for that this year, yeah.

Sam Parr 30:49 Wow.

Shaan Puri 30:49 Like 1.7 last year, 2 billion this year.

Sam Parr 30:51 And so he's, and by the way, he's the great-great-grandson of James Garfield. It's kinda cool. Um-

Shaan Puri 30:56 Yeah, the pr- of the president. Exactly. [laughs]

Sam Parr 30:58 Yeah. So he was like doing this. Did he sell it, or what did he do?

Shaan Puri 31:02 Yeah. So he sells it about, I don't know- I don't know, six, nine years in, something like that. He sells it to Hasbro for 300-something million is the reported price. Then he had an earn-out that took it up to almost 500 million.

Sam Parr 31:14 The, what... So he was only five years or seven years into this when he sold it?

Shaan Puri 31:17 Something like that. And he was very smart. So he was building this game, and I'll, I'll tell you kinda like how we got it off the ground. I'll tell you how he, the, the very smart thing he did right before he sold it, and then why this is so great as a business model. So, so first how he got it off the ground. He has the idea. He starts tinkering with it, and he's, he, and he's a total, like, game design nerd. He's been focused on game mechanics and game design for a long time. In fact, when I told you he, like, grew up in, like, Bangladesh and Nepal, and he was playing these games, he actually got into Dungeons & Dragons, but he didn't know the rules. The, like, the, it didn't come with a rule set. So he had the pieces, but he didn't know how to play, so he was inventing his own rule, rule set. Which, again, is like, if you look through, you know, great inventions, it always comes with this weird constraint or this irritation that sounds like a total problem, but if, if, it, they turned it into, actually, like the irritation drove the innovation. So him not knowing the rules led him to experiment with all different types of rule, uh, game design and rule design, and he would play it. And later in life, he actually found the official rule set and was almost, like, bummed out. Like, "Oh, that's how you play? I, I've been inventing all these other, like, versions of this that were really interesting." So he had been studying game mechanics for a long time. And so even with Magic, he was play testing like crazy, and he would do things that others weren't doing. So he would find, he would say, "Okay, who would be the best play testers for this? I can take guys who play these card games or these, like, board games." But he also went into baseball. He's like, "You know who really loves studying the, the statistical, um, aspects of games was Strat-O-Matic," which was this, like, base- baseball simulation game that, like, uber statistical nerds who loved baseball would, would get really into Strat-O-Matic. So he'd find the best Strat-O-Matic players, get them to test this, 'cause he knew if you get the game design wrong, the game fizzles out. He's like, "You could have the rich kid problem," which is just, it's all about going and buying the best cards, and once you have the best cards, you can't be beaten. He's like, "So it can't have that problem, and it can't have this problem, and it can't have this problem." He was finding all the bugs before he ever got to launch. And by the time he gets to launch, he doesn't just try to launch this widely or, you know, just, like, launch it to his friends. He goes and he drives basically, like, down the coast, and he's going from, like, a Comic-Con to, like, trading card conventions to, um, uh, board game conventions, and he's finding, like, the white hot center of who should love this game. And it should be basically, like, board game nerds. And he would go and he would demo it to, like, very small groups of people, but he would influence the influencers. He would get the guys who owned the shops. He would get the guys who write the magazine articles. He would get the guys who were the, the pro players of other games. He would win them over. And once he won them over, they would then be his sales engine explaining it to the next people. And so he would just like, you know, kinda like traveling in his tru- with the game in his trunk, go and win over, like, hand-to-hand combat each of these different folks.

Sam Parr 34:00 And this is in, uh, he says he, it's, he says he launched this in '93, so he was doing that in the '80s.

Shaan Puri 34:04 Y- well, that was kind of his launch strategy, and then he, he's, right away it sold out. He sold, like, uh, like hundreds of thousands of cards, like, in the first four days. And then he reprinted, and he s- he had sold 10 million within the first, like, year or something like that. Like, it was crazy how quick.

Sam Parr 34:17 This could be a great movie. Like, the, the, like, early '90s, late '80s in San Diego, LA, like that is, like, a really cool setting. And then, like, a guy, like, going through all this like, "It's not gonna work. It's not gonna work. Oh, it might work a little bit. It's not gonna work. Okay, it really works."

Shaan Puri 34:32 Right.

Sam Parr 34:32 Like that type of movie would be great.

Shaan Puri 34:33 And then they turn into, to, like, boons, right? So he, he runs out... They, it, it sells so fast he has no cards. He can't print any more cards. It takes time to do a print run. But the scarcity of there being no more cards and people going into shops being like, "Hey, do you have any Magic?" And the owners being like, "What's Magic?" And then they would have to go figure out, "Why are people walking through our door, like, hunting for this thing? I've never seen this level of passion." So the scarcity drove the, like, economy of the, of the game. And so he... And, and again, the business model, the genius of the business model, so a normal board game will sell for, like, whatever, 20 bucks, let's call it. Well, the average Magic player is spending 100 bucks a year for like eight or nine years of their hobby. So the average player is spending, like, $1,000. And obviously there's extreme collectors who are spending hundreds of thousands. There's casuals who fade out right away. But if you just do the math, like, the LTV per customer is in the thousands of dollars per player. You could never get somebody to buy a board game for $1,000. But by doing this kind of drip, drip, drip mechanism where you get into the game, but then you want your collection to become better so that you show up with, like, the ace up your sleeve, and you have social status because you have cool cards. And then you can trade or sell those cards, so it's an investment. It's not spending.

Sam Parr 35:47 Huh.

Shaan Puri 35:47 And that's what, you know, Pokemon did that afterwards. Uh, Hearthstone did that afterwards. And now, like, you know, a lot of the, like, sports card stuff have, have, have really taken that model and, and run with it. But, you know, Magic was really one of the OGs who did it. So I thought that was pretty amazing. The other cool thing he did was he bought Dungeons & Dragons. So he wanted to IPO the company, and he realized, like, "If I'm just one piece of IP, I'm gonna be seen as inherently risky." And so Dungeons & Dragon had been out beforehand, and it had, like, 40 million in revenue, but it had like 30 million in debt. And it was doing really poor. They, they stopped printing cards 'cause they just had too much debt. They owed a bunch of money. They were, they had scattered their business too much. So he bought the company. Nobody knows exactly how much, but, like, looks like it was, like, 30, 40 million maybe. And he just took care of their debts. And in doing so, he had a, a more diversified, you know, uh, brand portfolio of, like, another franchise that had millions of players and had been around for a while. And so he's, you know, you buy it for 30 million, but then your e- your eventual exit is for, you know, 300 to 500 million to Hasbro because you are more defensible. So I thought that was actually pretty brilliant as well.

Sam Parr 36:50 If you go on eBay and type in Magic: The Gathering and sort by most expensive, s- there's cards on here that are hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Shaan Puri 36:58 [laughs] Yeah.

Sam Parr 37:00 That is wild. That is absolutely wild.

Shaan Puri 37:01 I mean, Pokemon card, the, I think the most expensive Pokemon card sold for, like, 10 million or something, 12 million-

Sam Parr 37:05 Yeah

Shaan Puri 37:06 ... to one.

Sam Parr 37:06 You, you know the Gooch? You remember the Gooch? Or sorry, not the Gooch. [laughs] Mooch.

Shaan Puri 37:12 Oh, sure don't. [laughs]

Sam Parr 37:13 He's not the Gooch. He's, he's The Mooch, uh, Anthony Scara-

Shaan Puri 37:18 Scaramucci?

Sam Parr 37:18 Scaramucci. The Mooch. His kid bought it from, uh, Logan Paul for like $10 or $17 million, something like that.

Shaan Puri 37:25 Right. [laughs] What's the Gooch known for? [laughs]

Sam Parr 37:29 [laughs] Oh, you don't wanna know. Um, but, uh, did he raise funding?

Shaan Puri 37:35 No. This is like a bootstrap thing along the way.

Sam Parr 37:38 And what year did he sell it?

Shaan Puri 37:40 I think he sold it late '90s is my, my guess. Um, but it was like, you know, it was like eight years in the making before he even launched the game, because he's just been... I mean, and he really had been thinking about this stuff since he was a child. I think there's a belief in entrepreneurship that these ideas just sort of exist. You just have to sort of find one and make one. And, um, or you sort of get to be the one who gets the winning lottery ticket. And then you read about stories like this. You read about the story of how the UFC almost went bankrupt and really, like Dana White and the Fertittas, you know, built that thing brick by brick against pretty much every headwind you could have, being outlawed by, by states, losing money, nobody would put them on TV. Like, just every headwind you could have, they faced, and still built a multi-billion dollar company, still doing it today, even after cashing out. And I think there are actually many businesses that were only gonna be built by, by one person. It was either gonna be built by that person or it wasn't gonna exist. And I don't think that's a popular belief, but when you hear these stories, you just can't imagine, would there really have been another person who had the, this combination of the, the background, the, the hustle, the insight, the personality, the force of will, like the combination of factors that it takes to make it happen. Uh, the other time I felt this was when we were, uh, talking to Joe Gebbia from, from Airbnb, and he was telling the, the true founding story of Airbnb and all of the headaches that they faced along the way. And, you know, just being shut down and being sued and being this and being that, and it was like being copied by these like much bigger, more well-funded competitors, and just the, the number of times they escaped death in the first two years. It's like a dozen deaths that they escape. You know, they're, they're out of funding, and then they create a cereal box for John McCain and Barack Obama, and they sell that at the conventions, and they get just enough money to continue their business. It's like, what the hell is going on? And so, you know, those are businesses that it's like, oh, Airbnb was not meant to survive. It broke the rules. It was supposed to die 12 times, and it, it, finally the universe gave in and was like, "Fine, go ahead and exist." It, it was not like just anybody was gonna make that happen. [laughs] It was, it was not gonna happen that way.

Sam Parr 39:49 It's so good. There's this scene that, um, in, in the movie Rudy. Have you seen the, the football show or the football movie Rudy?

Shaan Puri 39:56 Long time ago. Yeah, yeah.

Sam Parr 39:57 Yeah. The... Like, Rudy's like talking to a priest. Uh, a- and the priest is like, "Rudy, I've been a priest now for this long, and there's only two things that I n- I've realized I believe in. There is a God, and I ain't him." And, uh, [laughs] and whenever I hear stories of like Dana White... What do we say? Or, uh, we're, we're, uh, paraphrasing someone else, but it was, it, it was like, make sure your passion burns so bright that everyone will come in town to like watch you burn, something like that.

Shaan Puri 40:25 Yep.

Sam Parr 40:26 When I hear stories like this, that's what I'm envious of. I'm like, "Oh, I wish I cared about anything as much as this guy cared about a stupid card game."

Shaan Puri 40:32 [laughs] Yeah, that's exactly right. When you hear the stories of like, um, these kind of like singular force of will, creativity, you know, like the, the guy who... Who's the guy who created Minecraft? One guy. Notch?

Sam Parr 40:46 Yeah. Uh, Notch. Yeah.

Shaan Puri 40:48 The whole thing himself, you know what I mean? [laughs] Um, I've, I have a friend who's a very, very smart venture capitalist. You know, this guy's like backed some of the biggest winners. And he said something to me once about, I remember when esports was like on trend, and people were investing a lot in esports and, uh, Overwatch franchises were selling for $20 million a pop 'cause they were trying to make it the next NBA, and he wasn't buying any of it. And I'm like, "But this is kind of your thing. You like these like weird niche things that could be huge, but they're kind of written off, and now they're starting to pick up steam. Like, I'm surprised you're out." He goes, "Esports needs its Dana White." And he was like, uh, "I don't know who that person is," but he goes, "Anybody could have told you that, like fighting, martial arts. Like, it was a thing for sure, but the guy who was gonna make it the worldwide thing, it took a very special like batch of entrepreneurial energy to do that, and somebody who was gonna just break through walls for 20 years."

Sam Parr 41:44 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 41:44 And so he's like, "You just need to f- " And he's like, "So I'm just waiting. I'm just waiting till esports has that." He's like, "I don't think esports is not gonna be a thing, but I also don't think it's a thing, it's going to be a thing right now because I don't see who that person is yet." And you see this with other things. Like right now, uh,

Shaan Puri 41:58 longevity is obviously a huge trend. Wellness, longevity, it's kind of replaced health and fitness as like the way people wanna optimize. And Bryan Johnson, I think, was the Dana White of that industry. I think Bryan Johnson was willing to do things no one else would do in a way, in a combination of like skills and personal sacrifice that, uh, very few people were ever gonna, um, uh, ever gonna do. And he had that special combination, and I think he's gonna do it for a long enough time that it's gonna be... I mean, it's already broken mainstream, but I think it's gonna just keep going. And he ma- You know, i- in his case, he's not creating like the one company necessarily that will be the winner in the way that like, let's say, the UFC was, but I think he made it happen in a way that no doctor, no scientist, no fitness athlete was ever gonna do.

Sam Parr 42:48 Yeah, man. I remember when we first came across him, we were like, "There's this guy, he's got a blog, and he's like just writing about his blood levels, but look how he does it. Look how nerdy he, he is."

Shaan Puri 42:58 Well, what were the factors, right? He had to have, first, personal wealth to start spending millions of dollars 'cause no investor would have funded that, right? "Hey, uh, hey, I'm gonna go raise money to inject myself with crazy shit, measure every organ in my body individually for its aging speed 'cause I wanna know that my left earlobe is aging differently than my, my kidney, and I'm gonna do that for years, and like, you know, somehow that's gonna work," right? Like he, he needed personal wealth. Then how many wealthy guys would wanna like- donate their body to science while they're still alive. Almost-

Sam Parr 43:30 Yeah. Well, he, you need someone who's basically, like, a little bit autistic and a lot, uh, ranks high on disagreeableness.

Shaan Puri 43:38 And he, I mean, he admitted himself, he was depressed and, you know, suicidal, and so he had nothing to lose. [laughs] He's like, "Well, being rich isn't making me happy, so, you know, let's spend the money in doing something else that will give me some sense of purpose and, and, and, uh, something that will, will take me out of this funk." Then you needed somebody who had the unique, quirky personality to be loved by some, hated by many, and, uh, watched by all. And so, you know, y- his look, his personality, his combination of scientific intelligence, business acumen, and then, like, willingness to look like a fool on social media, right? He, like, I actually believe that Bryan Johnson is the greatest social media, uh, marketer in the world. And so, like, if you see him now, you know, he's like, "Well, I'm gonna live stream myself taking, taking DMT," or whatever, like, what's that thing? Like, the f- a toad-

Sam Parr 44:24 Yeah

Shaan Puri 44:24 ... pissed in my mouth and I'm gonna hallucinate. You know, whatever it is. Like, he's doing that type of stuff on a live stream. You're like, "Oh my God, who would think to do this?" Like, he's, he's got, like, Jake Paul's social media instincts packaged in Elon Musk's wealth [laughs] and, you know, Huberman's scientific, right? Like, he's got, like, elements of each one of those, not at the, at each one's level, but, like, that combination is just a very rare skill stack.

Sam Parr 44:49 [laughs] Have you seen his YouTube videos? They're great. They're so good. They're, they're-

Shaan Puri 44:53 Yeah

Sam Parr 44:53 ... not at all like anyone else's stuff. They're so good.

Shaan Puri 44:57 And I'm not saying I agree with everything he's saying. I'm not saying I endorse whatever. I'm, I'm not saying any of that stuff. But all I'm saying is he undeniably broke through the noise, and broke through the barriers, and brought so much attention to this entire, like, way of living, that it just seems like, who else was gonna do that?

Sam Parr 45:14 He told me his motivation. He was like, "I can't tell you who the 70th, or 50th, or 100th richest person was in 1975, but I can tell you who Galileo is. I could tell you what the Wright brothers did. I- there's about 5 to 10 people who I could tell you what they invented and how they impact society, and none of 'em does it relate around money. And so that's when I realized that going after just business and making more money was not the answer to my question of, how do I be somebody that other people remember in 500 years? 'Cause that's my motivation."

Shaan Puri 45:49 D- dude, when you hear stuff like that, it's, like, such an amazing one-line kill shot, because, y- you know, five seconds earlier it's like, "You're crazy. You're, you'd be crazy to do that." And then he says one thing and you're like, "I guess you'd be crazy not to do that." [laughs]

Sam Parr 46:03 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 46:03 You know what I mean? [laughs] Like, that's how effective that is. It's like, yeah, you're right. Like, what is the money for? Nobody cares that you, you know, you sold Brain- Braintree/Venmo for $700 million and then, you know, what are you gonna do, live the left, rest of your life sipping pina coladas, like, uh, you know, on islands you own? Like, yeah, you could do that, or you could be a man of history and, like, [laughs] you know, you could do this. O- oh, okay. You could help people, you know, live forever. That, I guess that isn't crazy. I guess that's, that actually sounds way better than the alternative.

Sam Parr 46:33 Do you ever watch the Grammys where they do, like, the, uh, seg- or it's, like, the Oscars, I forget, where they do the segment where they remember the people who died that year? It's, like, a constant of, like, "Oh, he died?"

Shaan Puri 46:45 [laughs]

Sam Parr 46:45 Or like, uh, or like, "Oh, I remember that guy." And, like, you maybe are thinking back to a time when you did remember because that movie that that person in was, like, your favorite movie when you're a kid. Um, and you're like, "But he was the man. I love that guy. Okay." They're like, it's just like, [laughs] "Next."

Shaan Puri 47:02 Right.

Sam Parr 47:02 And whenever, whenever I, that segment exists, I'm like, the vast majority of, a large percentage of the people who they're talking about are probably significantly more successful and impactful than I am, and yet all they're gonna get from me and millions of other people is a, "Huh."

Shaan Puri 47:18 Right.

Sam Parr 47:18 "Okay." [laughs] Yeah.

Shaan Puri 47:19 [laughs]

Sam Parr 47:20 And like, [laughs] and, and, and some hand, I'm always like, "That's a bummer." And then on the other side I'm like, "That's kind of freeing, right?" Like, just do-

Shaan Puri 47:28 Yeah

Sam Parr 47:28 ... whatever you want then. Um, and so those segments always remind me of what Bryan Johnson said.

Shaan Puri 47:33 So, so much of the worst things of our living life are caring about what other people might think of us while we're alive. If you stacked onto that and you knew everybody would care about you and think about you when you were dead, it would, I think, be ne- negative, [laughs] right? Like, it's a good thing we don't all have these, like, insane legacies that everybody knows about, 'cause it's freeing to let you actually just live your life on your own terms for what you, you know, because nobody's thinking about you anyways.

Sam Parr 47:57 I don't even know how we got onto this.

Shaan Puri 47:59 Magic: The Gathering? [laughs]

Sam Parr 48:01 Oh, Magic: The Gathering. What's the guy doing now?

Shaan Puri 48:04 That's the true magic of Magic: The Gathering.

Sam Parr 48:06 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 48:06 How it brings us together.

Sam Parr 48:07 [laughs] All right. Is that it?

Shaan Puri 48:09 That's it.

Sam Parr 48:10 That's the pod. [upbeat music]