The Story Of Death Row Records Co-Founder Harry-O (#421)

1. 0:00 – 0:31

   Intro

   1. SPSam Parr0:00

      You told me by age 26 you had 11 different businesses.

   2. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris0:05

      Yeah.

   3. SPSam Parr0:05

      You said around the, in your early or mid-20s you were producing Broadway shows, that you were, like, in the mix at a very early, early age. How, how did that kinda come to be and, and what were those 11 businesses? [upbeat music] All right, man, we're live. We, uh, we, we always just kinda hop into things, but, uh,

2. 0:31 – 1:52

   Introduction of Michael Harris

   1. SPSam Parr0:31

      on the pod today y- we have Michael Harris. But do you like to go by Harry-O or Michael? What, what do you like to go by?

   2. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris0:37

      Well, people call me, you know, people that know me by Harry-O call me Harry, call me O, or Michael, whatever works.

   3. SPSam Parr0:43

      [laughs] So I'll kinda set this up, but basically I'll tell you, I, I, I've, I've read a lot about you and I've read about a lot of the work that you've done. The way that we got connected was we have a mutual friend named Chris who, um-

   4. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris0:59

      Yes

   5. SPSam Parr0:59

      ... has this th- has this thing called The Last Mile, which helps people when they get out of prison, helps them get jobs at tech companies, and he's been bragging about you, 'cause I told him-

   6. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris1:07

      [laughs]

   7. SPSam Parr1:08

      ... y- you, you, you can't see it now 'cause I, I redecorated, but on my wall I used to have a picture of Tupac and Dre and Eazy-E 'cause I loved NWA and I loved-

   8. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris1:16

      Right

   9. SPSam Parr1:16

      ... like, the rebellious culture of, of people who created cool stuff. And he goes, "Hey, you know, I know the guy who is part, you know, part brains behind all that." And I go, "What? Y- who?" And he said who you... Y- you know, he said your name. I go, "Oh, I've read all about him." And he goes, "Well, I, I, he's my, he's my buddy."

   10. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris1:33

       [laughs] Yeah.

   11. SPSam Parr1:33

       And so that's kinda how, that's kinda how we got connected. And so I thought today we can kinda talk a little bit about your story so people can learn about you, but then also we can talk a little bit about business and kinda the stuff that you went through. So you, uh, where you from?

   12. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris1:48

       Uh, Los Angeles. I'm from the east side of Los Angeles, California.

3. 1:52 – 18:56

   11 businesses by age 26

   1. SPSam Parr1:52

      But you, you told me by age 26 you had 11 different businesses.

   2. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris1:57

      Yeah.

   3. SPSam Parr1:57

      You said around the, in your early or mid-20s you were producing Broadway shows, that you were, like, in the mix at a very early, early age. How, how did that kinda come to be and, and what were those 11 businesses?

   4. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris2:11

      Well, I used to be, I used to, I used to own a limousine... First business I, I had was a limousine service. Uh, that was, uh, quite profitable. And I also had a construction company, I had production companies, I had music companies, I had, uh, uh, salons, like beauty salons. I had, um, uh, real estate investment companies. So I was just kinda, like, all over the place. And, uh, I also produced, uh, not just concerts and plays, but also, uh, I supported clubs in the city as a club promoter.

   5. SPSam Parr2:48

      How big was the, the, the limo business?

   6. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris2:51

      I had pre- I had, uh, I had about 30, 30 cars and so... But they was, uh, luxury, uh, limousines. They were, uh, ultra stretches. At the time it was pretty, uh, pretty impressive, the, the style of car that we had. Yes.

   7. SPSam Parr3:09

      What type of monthly revenue can a limo business make?

   8. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris3:11

      [laughs] Man, it, you know, it depends. I stayed pretty booked. I, I spent a lot of time, um, advertising. So a lot of times, uh, I would have, beyond the cars that I possess, I would have, uh, people calling me. And so a lot of the services that, uh, surrounded me didn't have business, and so I would farm 'em, I would farm out the rest of the business that I didn't have the capacity to serve. So a lot of times I would provide opportunities for the other, uh, car services that didn't advertise as much as I did. So maybe somebody needed 100 cars and only had 30. I could provide them with the 100 because I would parlay it out to, uh, what they call farm out, to the other companies, which you get 50% of the, uh, s- service that is conducted from-

   9. SPSam Parr4:02

      Like an affiliate fee

   10. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris4:03

       ... right, right, but you actually get half. [laughs] You get half of what it is because you're the one who, uh, initiated the sale. So-

   11. SPSam Parr4:13

       What... How old were you? And how old were you when you had a limo company that had 30, 30 cars?

   12. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris4:18

       Mm, uh, probably maybe 23 years old.

   13. SPSam Parr4:21

       How on earth does that happen? What age do you start working?

   14. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris4:25

       Well, I, I, you know, as a youngster I started working. I used to work at, I mean, uh, likely places, uh, to learn, uh, business structure. Uh, when I was a kid, I mean, like, up to my, like... Before I even went to junior high school I worked at a shoeshine parlor. And, and, and at that shoeshine parlor, uh, it was in my neighborhood, but it was two shoeshine parlors. There was one on one end of the corner and one was on the other end of the corner. What I was able to learn from that experience as a 12, 13-year-old kid, or 11, 12, 13-year-old kid, is competition and how business was ran. And, and these two guys competed with each other, but they also hired, you know, kids from the neighborhood to work at these shoeshine parlors, and we competed with each other. And so [clears throat] I learnt a lot about business from that practice and that process, but I also learned... I used to listen a lot. You know, a lot of people come in, different, from different walks of life. It could be preachers or business owners, uh, people from the street. And you would just, you know, while you're shining their shoes you're listening at a young age, and you're hearing different, um, [clears throat] hearing about different opportunities and how people approach business differently. And so I was always like a sponge at a young age. But, you know, friends... And I also learned how never to judge a book by its cover. Like, sometimes a guy might pull up in, in be in a nice car and, and you're, you're like, people is, you know, trying to get that customer. And this guy comes in, may, may only have one or two pair of shoes, and- May not even be a tipper. But then a guy pulls up in a station wagon or a regular car and he might have 30 cars in the, you know, 30 shoes in there, and also is a big tipper. So it's just this learning how to read people and, you know, just that whole competitive thing that was amongst us as you used to compete and, you know, be at our best, be dressed, you know, representing and, and, you know, honing in on our skill. So I try to learn something from everything I always did as a kid, like how do I use this moving forward? You know, what is it, what's the lesson, you know, learned here, you know? So, uh, that was, that was-- and my mother also owned a, a, a restaurant in the neighborhood and I watched how she navigated that and how she would, how she handled her customers and how she worked with her staff and, you know. I actually remember before she bought that business when she used to work for the people that she bought it from, how she, you know, raised up-- rose up in that in, in terms of management and then acquired that business. And so just watching people, uh, be effective in business at a young age had a profound effect on me.

   15. SPSam Parr7:12

       And you end up kinda getting in trouble, which I'll let you tell the story, in your 20s. But before that, how, how big was your empire in terms of employees at its peak?

   16. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris7:22

       Mm, I probably had about 150 employees.

   17. SPSam Parr7:28

       And can you reveal like how much revenue like this whole, the, the whole empire was bringing in?

   18. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris7:34

       Well, I was m- I was making millions of dollars. I mean, you know, that's 35, 36 years ago [laughs] so I don't remember the exact dollar amount.

   19. SPSam Parr7:42

       I mean, that builds up though. What do you-- what did you do with your money?

   20. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris7:46

       I c- I always invested in, in real estate.

   21. SPSam Parr7:49

       In, in real estate? In-

   22. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris7:51

       Yes

   23. SPSam Parr7:51

       ... so you're not, not public equities. You liked real estate and you're-- so you're buying real estate in what, your neighborhood?

   24. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris7:56

       Yeah. Well, yeah, all over. Any, any, anywhere I could find a deal, uh, you know, to buy up. You know, I could rehab properties as well as, you know, luxury properties and, uh, business, uh, outlets, I would, I would purchase it.

   25. SPSam Parr8:11

       How many did you own? How many b- how many buildings?

   26. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris8:14

       Mm, probably 30 or 40 buildings.

   27. SPSam Parr8:16

       Damn. You still own them?

   28. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris8:17

       [laughs] Yeah, I own what I own. [laughs] It's been a long time, brother. It's been a long time.

   29. SPSam Parr8:25

       I mean, that adds up. That adds up. I, I just started purchasing some stuff, um, about three years ago and I'm like, if I just do-- get one or two every single year, I mean, these definitely add up. And you, you bought at a good time I bet.

   30. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris8:38

       Oh yeah. It was a, it was a, you know, I was in a position to buy, buy out, buy out different type of properties that came into my preview, so.
4. 18:56 – 26:55

   How Michael got involved in drug business and arrested

   1. SPSam Parr18:57

      And when I, when you Google your name, one of the first thing comes up, it's this interview did, you did, I forget the publication, but the article said at one point you're doing something, uh, I think it said close to a million dollars a day in drug sales. Is that true?

   2. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris19:13

      I think it said two. [laughs]

   3. SPSam Parr19:15

      Was it two million a day?

   4. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris19:16

      Yeah, I think it said two. I'm not proud of that, so.

   5. SPSam Parr19:19

      What, what's the story of that?

   6. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris19:21

      It was hard work. I mean, you know what I mean? The thing is, uh, even though-

   7. SPSam Parr19:25

      And that's coke, I guess?

   8. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris19:26

      Yes, it was cocaine. Yeah. And I think that, uh, like I was saying before, um, whatever I put myself to, uh, good, bad, or indifference, it was, it was like I put myself to it, you know? And then it was, like, only after watching the, uh, repercussions throughout my community and communities across the country that I realized that, you know, what was making me, uh, rich was also making me poor in spirit and in, uh, culture. You know, I was helping to destroy my own community. And so, you know, so I don't really take a lot of joy in talking about the amount of money I made in that business, even though I was engaged and I was, I was pretty, uh, focused in that business when I was young and misguided in that business venture. But, uh, you know, I had a lot of time to reflect.

   9. SPSam Parr20:28

      And I bet that's confusing because whenever, you know, I start something and it starts working o- working out, I get... It's like a dopamine rush, you know, just seeing the sales come in. I mean, it's exciting. You know? Like, it's fun. Um-

   10. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris20:41

       Of course

   11. SPSam Parr20:41

       ... in your case it's, even though people were getting hurt, it's definitely exhilarating and it is exciting, and even if you're using the money to invest in cool stuff that helps your community, it's still, and it hurts people, it's still exciting. I mean, I bet that's still an exhilarating, adventurous life.

   12. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris20:56

       Well, and, and you gotta understand, so at, at a young age, you know, this, you gotta, you gotta, see, just gotta put everything in its proper context. You know, like, I'm growing up, people selling weed, you know, it's no, it's no harm. You know? It's like, and then this thing is introduced to the community and, and it's just the next level from selling marijuana or whatever it is. And you, next thing you know, you're involved and all you see is the dollars. You know, what you're making, the transactions. You don't really, 'cause everybody was, you know, you smoke weed, next day you get up, you go to work, you do what you do. You don't really know, you had no previous, uh, insight on what this could, could become. And so it's just like, okay, this person is buying, you selling it, it's in your community, it's available. That's it. That's all you see. And then when you see later on, when you see that this is not like marijuana, this is something else, and it's changing the, the, uh, it's just changing the whole makeup of the community. You know, people are just not themselves no more. And now it's like, whoa, you know, especially if you're a conscious person and you was raised in a good, you know, family setting, and now you out here hustling, and you hustling in a way that other people have, have become vulnerable to this particular drug, which I never used, so I didn't know, I didn't know what it felt like, but I, you know, it's people that I cared about later, I would see them fall victim to it. And, uh, you know, that's that karma I'm talking about. It comes back to you. You know? It's like, wow, this is what I'm doing. And, and so yeah, I made a lot of money. It was exciting. It was, the adventures, it was, it was, uh, enterprising, but then it also had that side that you, you can't ignore.

   13. SPSam Parr22:50

       And then you got, what was your sentence? 33 years? And that was mostly the attempted murder or the, the, uh-

   14. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris22:55

       No, that's, that's, that was not my sentence. I had a 25 to life, and on top of that I had a 20-year sentence with the federal, uh, with the feds.

   15. SPSam Parr23:06

       Damn. What's that feel like hearing that?

   16. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris23:10

       It's unbelievable. [laughs] But it, but it's real. [laughs] I mean, like, the, the, uh, the, the criminal system is real. I mean, it's, it's like a lot of people, I think conversations like the one we having should be had more. I think people just see the glitz and glamour of a particular lifestyle and, and the fact that a lot of us have very little patience because some of us live in conditions that are unbearable. And so you just wanna get out however you gotta get out. And so you don't realize that the patience that, that you need, that you can exercise, that you should exercise, could save you a lifetime of misery. And so it's, you know, in hindsight you can see, you know, like in reverse. You know? So I, and I believe I should be a conduit for that. I believe I should be able to talk to people that are pr- uh, poised to make some of the same, uh, youthful mistakes that I made, thinking that it's gonna solve the problem when it creates multiple problems. Uh, and it affects your family and your community in ways that you can't even imagine.

   17. SPSam Parr24:21

       When you were, uh, so you started Death Row, or, and I wanna hear about that, while in prison after you went in?

   18. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris24:29

       Yes

   19. SPSam Parr24:30

       How on earth does that work?

   20. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris24:33

       Well, you know, I'm, I'm enterprising. [laughs]

   21. SPSam Parr24:36

       [laughs]

   22. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris24:38

       What do you want me to tell you? I mean, what do you want me to say? What do you want me to say?

   23. SPSam Parr24:41

       Well, what's it-

   24. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris24:42

       Exactly

   25. SPSam Parr24:42

       ... wait, I mean, when you're just sitting there, you have a visitor, or you're writing letters, you're doing phone calls, and, and someone comes to you and be like, "Hey, man, you wanna start a record label?" I mean, I don't even know, I mean, how long were you in, in there before you, you kinda got this idea, or, or, or how'd that happen?

   26. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris24:58

       Well, like I told you, I was involved in different aspects of the entertainment business already, so it's kinda like I was already bitten by the bug. Uh, what happened was, uh, uh, I don't know if I should tell you this part, or maybe you should wait till the movie come out, but, uh, maybe, you know, maybe, maybe you done already heard some aspects of this, but it's just, uh, you know, I was, uh, I, I just still had all this energy inside of me that I wanted to do something. I didn't want, I didn't want my sentence, uh, to be the end of me. And, you know, I just, I just couldn't stop. You know, I'm the kinda guy that only slept three hours a day. And, uh, and, and like I said, ran 11 businesses. How do you go to prison and sit there and then be okay with that? You know, that's just not what it is. So you always, you're trying to find something outside of your environment that allows you to stay alive, uh, in spite of your circumstances, in s- spite of your sentence that has been imposed. You just, you know, you're still youthful, and you still, you still wanna have an impact because, like I say, when you deal with the totality of a person, and you see that there was more good than bad in that person, that's, that's what you're trying to get back to. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, like sometimes like I say, just trying to find a cool place in hell, you know, for all the bad things that I did, you know, praying that God can, you know, forgive me for that, and at the same time, being able to give something back to my community that they can use, uh, instead of something they shouldn't use.

   27. SPSam Parr26:37

       So what's that creation story look like? Um, who, uh, who con- I mean, I, I don't, I, I told you I read, um, which, but, well, uh, Ruthless. Is, is that what the book's called, Ruthless? Is that, by Jerry Heller?

   28. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris26:50

       Yeah, Ruthless-

   29. SPSam Parr26:50

       So I, I have that

   30. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris26:52

       Yeah, so Ruthless was before Death Row, right?
5. 26:55 – 32:45

   Started Death Row Records while in prison

   1. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris26:55

      So-

   2. SPSam Parr26:55

      Right, right, right

   3. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris26:55

      ... so Death Row is the, if you say, if you will, the next iteration of Ruthless, uh, because one of the main components of Ruthless was Dr. Dre. And Dr. Dre, uh, was the producer of the music that the, that mostly was produced by N.W.A. Mostly all the music that was released by N.W.A was produced by Dr. Dre. And so N.W.A was a group, and Dr. Dre was a part of that, but he also was the engine that made it run. But I don't think that Eazy-E, rest in peace, and Jerry Heller, also deceased, un- understood what, understood Dre's value, it, to the point where it shouldn't have been, uh, overlooked. And so that opened up a opportunity for him to be disgruntled, and, uh, for Suge Knight, uh, who, uh, who actually be- began to manage Dr. Dre after managing an artist by the name of D.O.C., uh, who introduced Suge to Dr. Dre. And, uh, then I was introduced to Suge shortly after, and, uh, that's how that relationship came. He was managing Dr. Dre and D.O.C., and, uh, we created a company. First, we created Godfather Entertainment, and then out of that burst, uh, Death Row. And so then it was-

   4. SPSam Parr28:25

      Who came up with that name?

   5. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris28:27

      I came up with Godfather Entertainment. And, and based on my situation, you know, I was actually housed on death row. Uh, and-

   6. SPSam Parr28:35

      In San Quentin?

   7. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris28:36

      Yeah, San Quentin. For, I wasn't sentenced to death row. I was housed there for a short period of time, and I was able to witness young people younger than myself at the time being sentenced to death row, and I just, you know, I f- I was profoundly affected by that. And I thought that, uh, you know... So you hear different versions of, of the name, 'cause it used to be Def, Def, like D-E-F Row, and then we decided to call it Death Row, which, uh, that's the company I set up, Death Row Records. And, um-

   8. SPSam Parr29:08

      And you had, um, you guys, I mean-

   9. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris29:10

      David Kenner. I, I worked with a, uh, my attorney at the time that was working with me on my appeal, David Kenner, was also part of that partnership that helped assemble that company for me while I was behind bars.

   10. SPSam Parr29:24

       And you guys, I mean, you didn't necessarily, you didn't even shape the genre. You created it a little bit. You know, you had, uh, Pac, Snoop. Who else was on there?

   11. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris29:35

       I mean, it's, it's the, people don't realize Death Row didn't have a large roster. It just had a effective one. Uh, and also my ex-wife, Lydia, she was also a part of the management team that helped facilitate the company in the beginning. Uh, so to answer your question, it, it's like the moment the world heard Snoop Dogg and Dr. Dre's voice together, it wa- it was a game changer. You know? It was a, you know, Warren G, uh, was a part of a group with Snoop, 213, and his relationship with Dr. Dre facilitated Snoop Dogg coming into the fold, and, uh, D.O.C. working with, uh, Snoop and helping him, you know, up his game in the rap game, and Dr. Dre looking to create another star That relationship, uh, forged together just, it just made magic. But there was other members, other producers, and other artists that was on the label, female like Rage and Jewel, the Dog Pound. Uh, there was, uh, there was, uh, there was just a lot of synergy there, you know? And they all come from different walks of life and, and it just was that time. You know, some things was just time. You know, the energy. Pac came later, but, um, he, uh, brought some of that fire with him too, and it just put Death Row in the history books like no other label because a lot of people don't really understand that Death Row was the, the little choo-choo train that would, you know? It just, it connected dots to so many different companies that a lot of people don't even realize that, that-

   12. SPSam Parr31:28

       Like what?

   13. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris31:29

       I mean, from Universal to increasing their distribution because of his relationship with Death Row and Interscope, and Warner Brothers almost getting out of the music business because of the way they mishandled their relationship with Death Row and Interscope. I'm just saying it's, it's so many different, uh, aspects to Death Row's existence that most people don't even ponder. They're too busy with the negative side of, and the drama that some of the people that was involved participated in, but they don't think about the enterprising nature of that organization, which is what my focus is, is like what it, what was its original intent and what did it do in the, in the business world that most people don't talk about? It's the, uh, narrative has been focused nar- it's been, been, been moved to a narrow focus and hopefully I'll be able to expand that out. You know, me and Snoop Dogg are working together. S- Snoop Dogg reacquired, uh, Death Row and we're partners and I'm the CEO of the new Death Row that I helped create 30-some years ago. So it's exciting to see how that turn out.

6. 32:45 – 48:18

   What sets apart culture changing people?

   1. SPSam Parr32:45

      What's crazy is you've been around all these people, and you actually saw them when they were young. You talked about all these interesting people, Denzel, Dre, Snoop. What, uh, what do some of these young guys have in common, you think, that kinda-- Because they're not just like successful businesspeople. They're culture changing people. They changed America. They, they changed the world. What, what, what attributes did they have in common? You know what I'm saying?

   2. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris33:14

      Well, well, let's just back up. Like, like seeing Denzel as the young Denzel and seeing him now, he still is consistent in his character. You know, there's certain roles he won't play. It's, it's, and, and it's the way that he approaches the craft that attracted me to that project, Checkmate, in the first place. He was, he was just always a consummate, uh, professional. You know, it's just he didn't really hang out. You know, he just did what he did and he took off. But I just watched him and I watched his work ethic and I, and, and his projection in the films that he do. Uh, for people that look like myself, we're proud. You know, he makes you proud. He makes you proud. A- and there's not enough of that in our culture to have people who can represent, you know, just in his craft, you know, just a strong focus, uh, intriguing individual. You know, instead of like you used the word intimidating, like towards me earlier. You know, it's like sometimes that could be off-putting for people, uh, and it, and it kills opportunity 'cause people see the book. Remember earlier I talked about judging a book by its cover and, uh, not really taking the time, you know, to connect to that individual. But Denzel has been really great with that, with the roles that he's played. So it was my honor and pleasure to, to have known him then and to know him now, that he's a, he's a consummate professional even today. He, uh, he's always, you know, thinking about his thoughts when he, when he, when he does a, a particular project. And NWA and Death Row is different. Now it, it, it had this, uh-

   3. SPSam Parr35:00

      And by the way, when I said intimidating, in part I meant I'm part-- I'm intimidated because you've got this cool demeanor. I asked you earlier, I said, "If you ever say something that you don't want on the pod, just let me know." And you said, "I don't say things I don't mean to say."

   4. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris35:15

      [laughs]

   5. SPSam Parr35:16

      Like you're just, you got this Clint Eastwood just like-- I'm like, I just-- You've got this coolness about you that is, uh, i- is intimidating is what I meant, and I'm intimidated by your success.

   6. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris35:28

      Well, I appreciate the clarification. Yeah, because, you know, I'm glad you said that. No, and I appreciate that aspect of it. Yeah, I, uh, you know, I just, you know, I just think about my thoughts and so that's why I don't worry. And I, and I appreciate you, you, you saying that to me, uh, or early on. But I'm, I'm usually conscious and if I say it, I meant to say it, and, um, and I-

   7. SPSam Parr35:50

      That's what I mean. You're very intentional and I, and that can be intimidating to people.

   8. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris35:54

      [laughs]

   9. SPSam Parr35:54

      'Cause when I get nervous, when there, if there's silence or I'm nervous, I'll say shit that I don't even mean to say. You know what I mean?

   10. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris35:59

       Yeah. [laughs]

   11. SPSam Parr36:00

       And you don't, you don't seem to have that attribute.

   12. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris36:02

       No. I've been in some pretty sticky situations and you gotta say what you mean and mean what you say. [laughs] It could, it could turn out real ugly, you know, if you, you know, if you, uh, don't understand your surroundings and, uh, you know, you gotta speak to your audience, you know, whatever the audience may be in, in real life. I mean, in life, you know, every day or just in this type of setting. You know, like you never know who could, uh, benefit from our conversation today, uh, and, or hesitate on something they're about to do and say, "Hey, you know what? That's some wisdom there. Let me, let me connect to that. Uh, here's a person that done been through it and, and experienced it on different levels and, uh, he might have something to say," you know? So thinking about- I'm thinking about setting up me a podcast, you know? So you talk about your success, I'm try- I'ma be in your rear view mirror for a second, then I'ma be-

   13. SPSam Parr36:54

       I have a feeling you're gonna only be in the rear view mirror for a second.

   14. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris36:57

       [laughs]

   15. SPSam Parr36:57

       Uh, but what were you saying about... A- I think you said NWA, I forget who you said. You were talking about some of the artists.

   16. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris37:01

       Right. Okay. I was saying they were, they were different in a, in a way that, uh, they provided an opportunity, uh, for us to speak. Now, some people don't like what we said, but it was different. You know, it was like you had a certain box that, you know, Black Americans and, and not just Black American, Hispanics and, you know, different nationalities that are sometimes regulated to a, a, you know, a box. And so you don't really get to hear them. But through this mechanism called music, called hip-hop, called rap, called, uh, some people call it gangster rap, you know, I just call it reality rap, you know, whatever that reality was in us community, being able to speak to it. You know what I'm saying? Like becoming your own CNN or, or Fox News, you know? You can say, "This is what's happening, good, bad, or indifference, but this is what's happening in our community," and they were able to communicate that. And so my intentions was to elevate, but at the same time, this thing takes on a life of its own. And so, and then you get involved, uh, in, uh... Then it becomes a business, and then you have executives and producers who start to see your world even different from how you see it. So later it was altered, but in the, in the beginning it was fresh and raw and uncut, you know? So you- people were get- mirroring in to a community that they knew little about. And so that, in that aspect, the, the, uh, rappers, uh, the, the music business was able to op- shed, shed a light on those communities in a way that it hadn't been shedded. And especially when it came to po- police brutality and, you know, a lot of the, uh, injustice that was taking place in those communities. It just, it just became a profitable vehicle that allowed us to talk about things in code or in, you know, through lyrics that normally you wouldn't even have access at, uh, doing. So it was-

   17. SPSam Parr39:12

       What's the first song that you heard that you thought, "Oh, Death Row, it- this- I'm onto something"?

   18. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris39:19

       Well, it, it's, it, it's, it's like I got to hear a lot of it before it came out, so it wasn't... I mean, I, I got to hear the whole album, The Chronic, before it came out. And so, but the first, when I heard the first song that was done on Deep Cover soundtrack, the single that Snoop and Dre did, uh, and I was in prison, and a lot of guys was, "Ah," they, they weren't really paying attention to them-

   19. SPSam Parr39:46

       Really?

   20. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris39:47

       ... until that happened. Yeah, because, oh, it was NWA and other groups that was out at the time. And so, uh, uh, MCA, all these guys that were out, you know? And then we had other local, uh, artists, uh, Toddy T and Miss Max of Spade and Ice-T and all these different guys were, you know, doing their solo career as well. But once they heard that song on the radio, uh, 187 on the Undercover Cop, and they heard that melodic sound come from Snoop and those, uh, thump- thumping beats from Dre, it was game over. [laughs] It was game over, you know? And that was like, wow, you know? 'Cause, uh, you know, I had tried to let them listen to it before that, and they, they didn't wanna hear it. Then once the, I got a line around the corner, they wanna hear the tape now, [laughs] you know? And then it's been like that ever since, you know? And I watched, uh, I was able to, you know, watch Dre and, and Snoop and them perform at the, uh, Super Bowl. And, uh, I was able to, you know, attend their practices. And it was just watching them at work and flashing back to what happened so many years ago, and just to see them become top-notch in their game. Because we took it from an independent, uh, type of setting with Rufus and, uh, NWA, and Death Row was able to submerge itself into the majors and, and become a major player, which changed the game for a lot of rappers that are quite successful today. So they were-

   21. SPSam Parr41:23

       Was it, was it mostly on tapes or CD? It was tapes still when it, when it first started?

   22. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris41:27

       Yes, it was tapes.

   23. SPSam Parr41:28

       Cassettes?

   24. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris41:28

       They then it went to CDs. Yeah.

   25. SPSam Parr41:30

       How much was a cassette back then? So then, the C- The Chronic came out in '92.

   26. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris41:34

       Right.

   27. SPSam Parr41:34

       What, what year did you go away?

   28. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris41:37

       I went away in '88.

   29. SPSam Parr41:38

       Okay. So you're in there for four years, um, by the time The Chronic comes out. How much is a cassette back then, you think? CDs in the late '90s were, like, $18. What's it- You don't remember?

   30. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris41:48

       18, $18 to $23. Yeah. So that, so, so you talking about $9 for a cassette, something like that.
7. 48:18 – 1:02:27

   What's it like managing creatives?

   1. SPSam Parr48:18

      What's that like managing cr- creative wil- wild guys?

   2. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris48:21

      Well, you know, it's called putting out the fires. But, you know, it, it, you spoke about Snoop. He was exonerated for that case too, so you know.

   3. SPSam Parr48:29

      Yeah. And I'm not saying he did anything. I'm just saying that, that's hard managing. I imagine it was challenging managing creative people who also had a wild side or sometimes would be, uh, in a circle of, of getting in trouble regardless if they did it or not. What-

   4. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris48:43

      Well, well, and that, and that's particular in music or any creative. Uh, I just think that you have to take people where they are, you know? And so what happens is if you take away, if you take away something- It takes away something. And so we all get to elevate in life. And so who you were and what you came from and the condition that y- the way you were conditioned to see the world, all of that had something to do with the way the music was made. And so I'm not justifying behavior of any kind. I'm just saying that you start where you start. And if you look at what you're talking about, about some of the conduct that different individuals, uh, participated in early on, and you look at them now, you know, these guys are philanthropists. They, they, they have charities, they have foundations, they have... They, they, they change, they help and motivate and mentor other people in their careers. So yeah, yeah, Death Row was all of that, and that's what made it exciting, and that was the energy that it possessed. And but it grew, and some people learned, and some people didn't. And some people went up, and some people went down. And it's just, it's, you know, you're talking about a Shakespearian play. I mean, you, there is no other. You know, it's just, you know, a lot of people lost their lives and careers, and, and a lot of people became quite wealthy as well. So it's just a combination of it all, you know? So the story is still being told.

   5. SPSam Parr50:20

      Do you think that that, creating Death Row, is, is that the, the thing you're most proud of career-wise?

   6. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris50:26

      Well, my career is not over, sir. [laughs] And so I, uh-

   7. SPSam Parr50:29

      So far.

   8. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris50:30

      Yeah.

   9. SPSam Parr50:30

      So far.

   10. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris50:30

       I just think that it's the most impactful, uh, good, bad. Like I said, good, bad. It's, I can go somewhere and, you know, people from all over the world recognize the brand. And, uh, and, and I, and you'll be surprised, people from high up in different, uh, parts of the society, classes of society, has told me that when they were in college or, you know, whatever they were doing, that that music [laughs] it-

   11. SPSam Parr50:58

       Dude, I listened to it all. I know every word to California Love, to Hit 'Em Up. I mean, I know all these words. I, I grew up in Missouri as a, you know, as a 12-year-old white kid in Missouri. I don't relate. I mean, I don't experience what they experienced, but, like, there was a rebellious side of me where I go, "I wanna stick it to the man. I wanna"–

   12. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris51:16

       Yeah. [laughs]

   13. SPSam Parr51:16

       And I, I, like, what I loved about Pac in particular, here's one of my heroes. I love that he accomplished so much. What, how old was... Uh, he died in September of, what, '96?

   14. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris51:26

       Yeah.

   15. SPSam Parr51:27

       Um, he-

   16. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris51:27

       He was 25

   17. SPSam Parr51:27

       ... he, he was, he was 25. Tw-

   18. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris51:30

       Yeah

   19. SPSam Parr51:30

       ... he was a young guy, and he had, he had an artful side to him. You know, these old interviews when he's 18, 19, when he's talking about, uh, J- I think Jada Smith or, um, and talking about, like, you see the love that he has for this woman. He's being artful, and he's talking about, um, like Brenda Had a Baby, these songs are, like, real issues.

   20. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris51:49

       Right.

   21. SPSam Parr51:49

       But then he also got, he got charged with rape, and he also was, you know, the whole Hit 'Em Up thing and with, with all these other guys he was fighting. And I, what I love about him is that he was a flawed character who was mostly good, and he redeemed himself. Like, he would screw up, and then he, he was a, he was a rich character, and I was drawn to that. I'm like, I got flaws. You know, I had substance abuse issues, and I overcame them, and I did all this stuff. And I was drawn by people who screwed up and overcame and then maybe screwed up again and overcame and had this rebellious, bold part of it, and that's why I was drawn to it, even though I can't relate anything to selling drugs or to-

   22. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris52:23

       Well, well, even-

   23. SPSam Parr52:23

       I can't relate to any of that

   24. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris52:24

       ... well, even some of those charges, like, you know, with Tupac, we're not here to defend or, or, or revisit the case, but we know that a lot of times you have to guard the people that surround you as, as much as you guard the food that you digest. And sometimes you could be a big, big-name person, and other people around you could do something that you get it because you're the, you're, you're the easy victim. You know, you're the one with the big paycheck, or you're the one with the big name, and sometimes you su- you suffer the consequences of the people that you allow in your circle. So it's important to always be conscious of that because, uh, a lot of times, I mean, yeah, he was rebellious. He fought back. He fought against. He was raised, he was conditioned to do so. But at the same time, a lot of times things were put on him that really didn't have nothing to do with him, but-

   25. SPSam Parr53:14

       At a young age, too

   26. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris53:15

       ... at a young age.

   27. SPSam Parr53:15

       At a, at a real young age when you have the spotlight. I mean, he was famous since he was really young, and-

   28. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris53:20

       Yeah

   29. SPSam Parr53:21

       ... I, I admire that.

   30. MHMichael "Harry-O" Harris53:21

       And talented. He was famous-

Episode duration: 1:02:28