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Threads Becomes The Fastest Growing App Of All Time... (#473)

Episode 473: Shaan Puri and Sam Parr talk about Threads... And an interview with entrepreneur Sam Ovens (@samovensnz) - who made millions off of courses - his latest project and why he's not into A.I.

Shaan PurihostSam ParrhostSam Ovensguest

Jul 11, 20231h 20mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

85 min read · 16,642 words

0:00 – 2:10
Intro
1. SPShaan Puri
  By the way, there's a funny tweet from, um, Parker, I think it's Parker Thompson, on Twitter. He, he, he res- replied to that. He goes, "Okay, so for those keeping score at home, Elon B- [laughs] Elon bought a, bought a product for 44 billion, and then Zuck built the same product for 1,000 times less, is stealing all of his users like an absolute Chad, and is God willing, about to choke him out in 90 seconds on a steel cage soon." Huh, so that's what a cuck means now. [laughs]
2. SPSam Parr
  [laughs]
3. SPShaan Puri
  [upbeat music] All right. What's up? Today's episode, we're talking about Threads versus Twitter, the big debate, and we're gonna talk about where we, where we land, our predictions for what we think is gonna happen, how it's gonna play out. Um, we told some funny stories. And then in the second half, we have a, uh, an interview with a guy named Sam Ovens. So Sam met, Sam met this guy. Sam, he used to run a business called consulting.com that at its peak hit 30 million in revenue. He was all over our Facebook feeds as kinda like one of these internet marketer guys, and so we were curious, like, "Who is this guy, and what's he all about?" Um, definitely an interesting interview. I would say, uh, he had some interesting stuff to say. Also, his energy was totally different than most of the guests, and also different than what you would expect out of an internet marketer. So I'm curious w- to see what people think of it. Um, I would say it's, you know, uh, sort of like a, a, a different style of interview than, than we've done before. Sam, what do you think?
4. SPSam Parr
  Uh, so for those watching on YouTube, I'm sweating right now. The reason I'm sweating is around minute 35.
5. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs]
6. SPSam Parr
  I can't stop laughing. I'm still laughing about it. You're gonna enjoy it.
7. SPShaan Puri
  The, the Taco Bell story. Let's just leave it at that.
8. SPSam Parr
  Oh my God, it's ridiculous. Uh, I don't know, like, how this story came about in a business pod. I'm happy it did. I'm sweating right now.
9. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs]
10. SPSam Parr
  If you are on Spotify or Apple and you're listening to this, go to our YouTube page. Uh, search My First Million. Go to this episode. Let us know in the comments what you think. People liked when we did that the last time, Shaan. We got a lot of comments, got a lot of good feedback. It's, it's, uh, we actually... It's been fun to read all the comments, but let us know what you think, and we'll talk to you soon.
11. SPShaan Puri
  All right. What's up? Um, Sam, we gotta talk
2:10 – 4:15
Threads vs Twitter
1. SPShaan Puri
  about Threads. Threads versus Twitter. [laughs] It, uh, Threads came out a few days ago. We've had a few days to, to play with it, to sit on it, to think about it, and, um, I think everybody's given their opinion on it, and why not ours? [laughs] I wanna hear what you, what you have to say about this. I have a, I have a k- I have kind of like a way I think we could talk about this. The, uh, what I'm calling the bull and bear case. So the bull case, the bear case, and then where we land. But I first just wanna hear, like, I don't know, when did you get on it, and what was your kind of initial reaction? How, how on your radar was this thing to begin with?
2. SPSam Parr
  I had only heard about it three or four days before it launched, and I heard about it because of a leak. I think there was a leak, right? The, somehow, it leaked out that it was coming out. So I downloaded the app. Like, the... You can download it before it launched, and then I got the notification right at midnight or whenever it said it launched, and I signed up. I think it's pretty cool. Are you jealous that I already have more followers than you do on that?
3. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs]
4. SPSam Parr
  Because I was already going hard on Instagram.
5. SPShaan Puri
  No. Well, yeah. Yeah, going hard on Instagram paid off there. Uh, you got, like, a, like, a double bonus for, for growing your Instagram, so, so props to you on that. Um-
6. SPSam Parr
  I think it's great. You know why I think it's great? I really only think it's great for one reason, which is Twitter to me is pretty great, but dude, my feed is just, like, fight videos and people getting shot and dying.
7. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs]
8. SPSam Parr
  Like, it's real- It's kind of become a little bit sad.
9. SPShaan Puri
  That's on you, bro.
10. SPSam Parr
  I also-
11. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs] I don't know if that's anyone else's fault. You know, when you click the follow button and the like button and the save button, the algorithm will just give you more. [laughs]
12. SPSam Parr
  Look, here's the deal. If you see, like, a fight video, you watch it.
13. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs]
14. SPSam Parr
  Like, you're not, not gonna watch that. It's like when you have a hot girl that, like, scrolls through. Like, you, you slo- you scroll slower through that. I mean, it, that does-
15. SPShaan Puri
  Yeah, what is this? How did this get here?
16. SPSam Parr
  [laughs] Yeah.
17. SPShaan Puri
  All right. [laughs] Keep scrolling down.
18. SPSam Parr
  [laughs]
19. SPShaan Puri
  Yeah.
20. SPSam Parr
  Yeah, so just all these weird handles. I also think that I've s- I've become such a stan for Zuck, and this whole thing-
21. SPShaan Puri
  Me too
22. SPSam Parr
  ... he's just proven to be, like, the man. He's in, he's, he's come off very likable, and so I find myself picking sides based off of the owner of the company.
4:15 – 12:30
Zuck vs Elon
1. SPShaan Puri
  Yeah, yeah. It's become sp- It's, it's become sports. It's become tribal. Whose team are you on? And I don't know how the hell I ended up Team Zuck, but I'm like, I'm on Team Zuck, and it's very obvious to me. It's very clear. I think this guy's done an incredible rebrand of his personality [laughs] 'cause he went from, like, easy to hate for a bunch of reasons. One, becomes rich and powerful. People don't like that. Um, two, he looked like a robot and talked like a robot, seemed to have no personality. So you know, that was, you know, uh, again, like, tr- for the people who didn't get turned off by the power and billionaire thing, they got turned off by, like, "Okay, this guy's a lizard," or, "He's a robot." Like, "What, what's going on with this guy?" Um, and then somehow it's, you know, he hired the top, top PR agencies in the world. He hired the, the fixer. The wolf came in and tried to fix him. All he needed to do was start working out. He, the guy, guy takes 10 jiu-jitsu classes and, and learns how to do a pull-up, and all of a sudden, idiots like us are like, "You know what? I fuck with this guy." And, uh-
2. SPSam Parr
  Yeah, he's relatable somehow.
3. SPShaan Puri
  Yeah, it totally worked on me. And then to the point where you start thinking about it. This happened also with LeBron James. LeBron James at one point was all... He was super hyped. Then he became the guy. And then people started to turn on him. Then he did this thing where he left his team and went to Miami, and everyone's like, "Oh, I hate this guy." And then somebody's pointed out. They're like, "So you're telling me this kid who had all the pressure in the world, uh, when he was 17, 18 years old, delivered on the hype, lived up to it, never got in trouble with the law. You've never heard about this guy. You know, married his high school sweetheart, is a good dad to his kids, um, you know, is, is one of the best players of all time and just, like, keeps himself in phenomenal s- fitness and shape and tries as hard as he can every single year. What, what do you have a problem with?" And in the same way, I feel like the sa- that's happened for Zuck, where it's like- So this guy who built this company that billions of people use, stuck with the company. He's, he works hard every single day. [smacks lips] Um, [laughs] you know, married, uh, you know, his college sweetheart. Uh, never been in trouble with anything. Doesn't tweet out offensive stuff. Doesn't say anything just to get a reaction. Uh, seems like a perfectly good reasonable guy. Works out hard, is a good dad. Like, what do you hate about this guy again? What's going on?
4. SPSam Parr
  Do, do, do you know how old Zuck is?
5. SPShaan Puri
  I don't know. He's like our age. He's like... Yeah, he's a little older than us, right? He's like 37, 38, 39.
6. SPSam Parr
  Yeah. He's, he's... He just turned 39. You know, and LeBron, also 38. These guys are the same, man.
7. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs]
8. SPSam Parr
  They are the same. They've been... Dude, uh, what, what is Le-
9. SPShaan Puri
  Since they were 18, yeah.
10. SPSam Parr
  W- yeah, LeBron got drafted what... He was a high schooler, right?
11. SPShaan Puri
  18 years old, yeah.
12. SPSam Parr
  18 out of high school. Zuck has been the man since he was 21 or he's 22. There's been nothing... I mean, there's been like, if you g- the grand scheme, it's, there's been no like sh- human e- uh-
13. SPShaan Puri
  Errors. No, no, no self-
14. SPSam Parr
  Yeah, there's been like business errors or been cringe, but there's been nothing that they've done where you're like, "Oh, that guy's a piece of shit." Nothing.
15. SPShaan Puri
  If your biggest crime is cringe, you're doing all right. You know what I mean?
16. SPSam Parr
  Yes. When you're the man for that long, that is impossible. That is so challenging to do that. Uh-
17. SPShaan Puri
  So, okay-
18. SPSam Parr
  You know what I mean?
19. SPShaan Puri
  So, so we're, we're clearly Zuck fanboys. Let's talk about Threads though. Um-
20. SPSam Parr
  Oh, and by the way, did you see what Elon posted? I don't know. Did you see it? [laughs] On Twitter he goes, [laughs] "Zuck is a cuck."
21. SPShaan Puri
  Yeah.
22. SPSam Parr
  You know what a cuck is?
23. SPShaan Puri
  Yeah, yeah.
24. SPSam Parr
  Uh, I-
25. SPShaan Puri
  I do. [laughs]
26. SPSam Parr
  I, I had to look it up actually.
27. SPShaan Puri
  Familiar. [laughs]
28. SPSam Parr
  A cuck is a k- a cuck is a guy who wants his wife to sleep with other men.
29. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs]
30. SPSam Parr
  And he, like, enjoys it. Uh, and then he also goes, "I challenge Zuck to a dick measuring contest." Literally, a dick measuring contest.
12:30 – 13:40
Threads Bull case
1. SPShaan Puri
  right now, and, um, it works, but the ad platform is so trash compared to Facebook and Google's ad platform. Um, which is so surprising, because that's how they make money. You would think they're highly incentivized to do it. So anyways, I guess my ma- my bigger point is not really about who- whose ad platform's gonna be better. It's just-
2. SPSam Parr
  But that matters
3. SPShaan Puri
  ... execution. It's gonna be execution on all the details. On, on getting people linked up with the right people, making the feed super interesting and r- a- you know, and, and handling spam better and abuse better, and all the things that Twitter has struggled with over, over the years. So the bull case is th- basically this. 100 million users. If they convert some of Instagram people, they'll be bigger than Twitter. They don't even need people from Twitter to switch. They can just bring net new people to the market. And that, um... And they can just continue to promote this across Instagram and WhatsApp. So that's the bull case. W- um, now I'm gonna switch to the, to the bear case. Oh, also, part of the bull case, Twitter shoots itself in the foot a lot. So Elon does a lot of dumb shit, pisses a lot of people off. They, um, he's basically pushing to, like, basically put a paywall where, like, you have to pay $8 a month in order to, like, have your shit be seen in the, in the feed. So that's basically introducing friction. He added the
13:40 – 19:05
Threads Bear case
1. SPShaan Puri
  tweet limit not long ago, which introduces friction, 'cause oh, you know-
2. SPSam Parr
  Which is insane
3. SPShaan Puri
  ... no more tweets for you. Uh, cut off, like, the ability to post tweets and have them embed in other places, 'cause he was like, "Oh, we're getting scraped too much." So he basically put a login wall in front of the content. Like, he's adding friction everywhere. So these are, these are foot faults. These are, you know, nobody... Uh, this is not Threads killing you. This is you killing you. And so that's, that's part of the bull case. Now, here's the bear case, why this won't work. If I was to argue why this won't work, here's what I would say. I'd say, um, "Hey, name the last Facebook standalone product that just worked." Not one that they bought, but one that they made. And that's where there's really a kind of a graveyard of Poke and a bunch of these other apps that they tried to create. They tried to create a TikTok competitor. Didn't work. They tried to create a Snapchat competitor. Didn't work. So there is a graveyard of these things. The only things that have worked have been things that they put into the Instagram app, like Stories and Reels, um, because people are hooked on Instagram. So the standalone app thing hasn't really worked, and this is a standalone app. The next problem, just 'cause 100 million people try it doesn't mean they're actually gonna stick. There's gonna be massive churn, just like there is when any-
4. SPSam Parr
  Have, have you gone back?
5. SPShaan Puri
  ... new tech is used. Yeah, I, I opened it up right now. But, like, I'm not, like, hooked on it, uh, completely myself yet. Are you?
6. SPSam Parr
  I'm not hooked yet, no. I'm definitely not hooked yet. I think-
7. SPShaan Puri
  And I'm pretty hooked on Twitter, but I've also built up, like, a big following, plus a bunch of people that I follow, so my feed is more interesting on Twitter. It's like cur-
8. SPSam Parr
  Yeah
9. SPShaan Puri
  ... I've been curating it for 10 years.
10. SPSam Parr
  I, I was gonna say, we might be the 1%, the 1 per- percent, because we make a living in part because of Twitter. And so we could be, like... There could be a part of it, of, like, "Ah, shit, I don't wanna use this other thing because I already have this one thing that's working, and this thing is just gonna-"
11. SPShaan Puri
  Totally
12. SPSam Parr
  ... "like, canni- cannibalize it." So I can't tell if there's that bias there or, or what it is, but no, I'm not hooked yet. But I am opening it, uh, maybe once a day. Maybe once every two days. I am a little bit like, "Shit, I don't want another thing to have to use."
13. SPShaan Puri
  Right.
14. SPSam Parr
  Uh, but I am happy that it's text-based, 'cause that's where I excel. 'Cause, you know, I'm a Missouri Six. But, uh, like [laughs]
15. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs] But I'm a Microsoft Word Nine.
16. SPSam Parr
  Like, having a... Uh, yeah, I, I don't want... I'm not, like, I'm not... [laughs] I don't, I got the, I got a good face for Twitter. Uh, so, like-
17. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs]
18. SPSam Parr
  ... I prefer that. I, but I, uh-
19. SPShaan Puri
  Yeah, we, we're the outliers because both of us have, I don't know, between the other, we probably have almost, almost a million followers together on, on Twitter. And so going, now I go to Threads, I have 3,000 followers or something. I'm starting from scratch again. And you know, I'm like that guy who, I moved to San Francisco, and I bought a house, and I just redid my lawn. And then everybody started moving, and they started raising the prices, and I'm like, "I'm the, I'm dug in." I'm like, uh-
20. SPSam Parr
  Yeah, I'm dug in
21. SPShaan Puri
  ... I, I already paid for the reno. Uh, you know, like, I, I guess I'm just here when everyone else is, is choosing places that might be a better fit. So, so you know what? We, we might be the wrong person there. Here's the other reasons that Twitter might win. Twitter, after the churn, f- uh, it, you know, Threads might have 20 million or 30 million, uh, active users compared to Twitter's 300 million, right? So I think there's gonna be so much churn that this 100 million number r- is a bit of fool's gold. The next thing, Twitter has key content. So it has news, it has sports. So it's got the journalists, it's got the athletes, it's got the, the people that cover the NBA and the NFL. Like, it's got famous people. It's basically got, like, this key, like, rapid breaking news and influential content. Um, Threads is gonna have new content, but, like, the type of person who's big on IG may not be the right type of person for w- what works in this text medium. We don't... TBD. There's a TBD on that. The next thing. Threads is just a straight-up clone. There are no product improvements, and in fact, there's some big drawbacks. Like, they don't have DMs. They don't have, like, you know, uh-
22. SPSam Parr
  Dude, I get DMs. I've been getting DMs, I think.
23. SPShaan Puri
  No, there's no, there's no DMs.
24. SPSam Parr
  Or I don't know what they're called.
25. SPShaan Puri
  There's no inbox.
26. SPSam Parr
  People have been messaging me. Let me pull it up.
27. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs]
28. SPSam Parr
  But...
29. SPShaan Puri
  I think they're @ mentioning you. There's, there's definitely no, no inbox.
30. SPSam Parr
  Oh, maybe that's what it is. I, I don't even know how to use it yet. Then yeah, it's, it's a, it's a mention, but it looks like a DM.
19:05 – 32:30
Predictions
1. SPShaan Puri
  Um-
2. SPSam Parr
  Yeah, we'll call it Khaki.
3. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs] All right. So here's, here's a couple other things, which is, um, the best creators on Twitter, so the people who have basically, in a 10, 15-year period, proven that they're really good at creating text-based content, now have a big following and don't really wanna start over from scratch on, on Instagram, AKA me.
4. SPSam Parr
  Yeah.
5. SPShaan Puri
  So, so I think those are some of the, some of the downsides of this. Um, but I do think, you know, once you take into account the bull and the bear case, it's prediction time. How do you think that this plays out?
6. SPSam Parr
  Well, you have to ... Let's do the int- interesting nuggets really quick. If it doesn't work out, Nikita, our friend Nikita, who is, worked at Meta and did all the social stuff, what did he say?
7. SPShaan Puri
  Uh, he was basically like, "You know, this thing's gonna be at 100 million users soon, and if it fails after that, that will sort of officially make it the biggest fail in social app history at that point."
8. SPSam Parr
  Which I think-
9. SPShaan Puri
  I don't think that b- really means anything, to be honest.
10. SPSam Parr
  I think the truth is, I think it's gonna end up closer to the bull than it is the bear. I think it will, it will more work than it does fail. I don't think Elon would ever sell Twitter out of, like, pride reasons, but I think it will... If it weren't run by a, a billionaire, I think it would effectively put it out of business, uh, for the ad, ad purposes. Um, I think it's gonna, I think it's gonna work. I don't know if it will overtake, but I think it's gonna work so good that it's gonna cannibalize Twitter and it's, they're gonna be at least equal.
11. SPShaan Puri
  The CEO of Cloudflare tweeted out a, a chart, I don't know if you saw this, of Twitter traffic, 'cause Cloudflare has, like, I don't know, they run, like-
12. SPSam Parr
  That's fucked up, right?
13. SPShaan Puri
  ... the internet in some way. Um, it's [laughs] yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe they haven't paid their bill, or maybe there's a conflict of interest.
14. SPSam Parr
  That's like a doctor, that's like a doctor, like, revealing, like, your illnesses, isn't it? [laughs]
15. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs]
16. SPSam Parr
  It's like, it's like these two guys are making fun of each other. It's like, "Actually, this guy, his cholesterol is way worse than yours."
17. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs]
18. SPSam Parr
  [laughs] Right?
19. SPShaan Puri
  Yeah. So the doc came out-
20. SPSam Parr
  Like, if you wanna beat him up, but kick him in the left knee.
21. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs] He, uh, he did that basically. He tweeted out, showing that this, uh, that Twitter's down, like, 5% in overall traffic so far this week, um, from, from Threads. So it's, like, you know, he said, like, "It's, uh, plummeting," or something like that, like dropping off a cliff, which is, like, pretty dramatic for, I don't know, 5% I wouldn't call plummeting, but, um-
22. SPSam Parr
  That's weird that he shared that. That's super weird.
23. SPShaan Puri
  Yeah.
24. SPSam Parr
  Uh-
25. SPShaan Puri
  Yeah
26. SPSam Parr
  ... but I, I, I ... It's gonna be closer to the bull. I, and what- whatever I've learned, Nikita actually would always joke about this. He would say, "Never, ever, ever bet against Zuck." And I've heard so many people say that. Would I bet against Elon? For sure.
27. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs]
28. SPSam Parr
  Uh, not often. Not often. I think that he, he follows through a lot. He's just been closer to death so many times, and I don't think Zuck entirely has. Uh, I just think that Zu- Zuckerberg, when it comes to this field, of c- consumer social, I just think that he's ... I would not bet against that person.
29. SPShaan Puri
  Yeah, exactly. I think that's the, that's the rub here. I think that, um, it's not Zuck versus Elon m- mano a mano, like, the, you know, like ... In the same way that in the cage Zuck will probably win 'cause he trains. Uh, he's been training jujitsu for, like, you know, couple years, so that's a, gives him a little head start. Um, in the same way that Zuck probably could not build a rocket company or a car company. You're playing on-
30. SPSam Parr
  I mean, he couldn't even build Oculus. Like, he couldn't even, like, do that type of hardware.
32:30 – 39:54
L of the Week
1. SPSam Parr
  And he's like, "I gotta call them. I gotta call them and let them know."
2. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs]
3. SPSam Parr
  And he was, like, insistent. Like, he's like, "I gotta call them." And so he, like, called them. I'm like, "Dude, what- what's- what are you doing? We're- we're on vacation. Like, we're visiting. Like, what?" That's such a weird... It was such a Larry David move to, like, call someone to tell them, "You made a mistake last night. You gave us-"
4. SPShaan Puri
  Right
5. SPSam Parr
  ... "normal coffee instead of decaf." And I, those types of people are very challenging for me to be around.
6. SPShaan Puri
  Except when Larry David does it, it's, like, uh, likable and adorable. And, uh, when anybody else in real life does it, it's just hateable. My, [laughs] my mother-in-law has a version of that where any time we're complaining about something, her go-to is not even, like, tell them and call them. She's like, "Call the news." [laughs]
7. SPSam Parr
  [laughs]
8. SPShaan Puri
  She's like, "Call Channel 5. They, they will investigate this." And I'm like, [laughs] "No, it's really not."
9. SPSam Parr
  Dude, I can't stand that.
10. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs] It's really not what's gonna happen here. [laughs]
11. SPSam Parr
  I've ordered a steak before and they've brought me pesto chicken pizza, and I won't say a word.
12. SPShaan Puri
  Exactly. [laughs]
13. SPSam Parr
  I'll be like, "Yeah, whatever."
14. SPShaan Puri
  Dude-
15. SPSam Parr
  "It's food. I can eat that."
16. SPShaan Puri
  ... I gotta tell you this story. So this is, um, this is... I can't decide. I wanted to do a segment called L of the Week, 'cause I think we sometimes brag a lot on here. We say, you know, how we're so great and all these different ways. I think it'd be nice to share a, a big L that we took. But I gotta be honest, this might actually be a dub. This might not even be an L, 'cause the experience was so incredible.
17. SPSam Parr
  What was it?
18. SPShaan Puri
  All right, so I go. I, I'm feeling... I- I'm doing something. I'm working, whatever, and I'm feeling hungry while I, I was driving back from an errand. And I'm like, "All right, I'm hungry. I'm just gonna pick up some food real quick." So I go to, uh, Subway, you know, get a sandwich. And, uh, I go to Subway. I walk in. There's, like, five people in line. There's only one guy working. And it's a Black guy, and there's a white guy checking out. And I'm, like, thinking about what sandwich I'm gonna get, and I kinda decide. I notice that that guy's still checking out. And I look over and I'm like, "What's taking this guy forever?" And these guys are talking about, like... It's like, "So where'd you grow up?" It's like, "South Africa." He's like, "Yeah." And they're talking about S- Africa and talking about race, talking about race relations. And they're just talking, and, like, zero... Like, for, I'm happy that there's, whatever, no racism on Earth, but I'd really like a sandwich right now.
19. SPSam Parr
  Yeah. [laughs]
20. SPShaan Puri
  And so would the four people in front of me.
21. SPSam Parr
  How about that meatball marinara?
22. SPShaan Puri
  Yeah, exactly. [laughs] Yeah. Red.
23. SPSam Parr
  [laughs] Yeah.
24. SPShaan Puri
  That's the color of my, my meatball-
25. SPSam Parr
  Yeah
26. SPShaan Puri
  ... that I'd like right now.
27. SPSam Parr
  [laughs]
28. SPShaan Puri
  Um, and so they're just talking. And then they fucking, they hug, and I'm like, "What's going on right now?"
29. SPSam Parr
  [laughs]
30. SPShaan Puri
  And when they hug, I lose it. I leave. I walk out and I'm like, "I'm hungrier than ever," 'cause I've just killed nine minutes here-
39:54 – 43:40
Intro Sam Ovens
1. SPSam Parr
  so Shaan, I've got a funny story. So we have Sam Ovens today. I'll do a little bit of an intro. But about three or four years ago, I used to see Sam's ads everywhere, and it was basically him in a bright blue blazer in his fancy apartment overlooking Manhattan. And there was a little bit of hate in me.
2. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs]
3. SPSam Parr
  And there was a little bit of, uh-
4. SPShaan Puri
  You had slicked back hair, too, I remember
5. SPSam Parr
  ... yeah, slicked back hair. Yeah. And for some reason, he pissed me off, and I wrote, like, on one of the ads, like, "You're full of shit," or something like that.
6. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs] You did a hater comment? [laughs]
7. SPSam Parr
  I did a hater comment, and it sat in me for years. And I talked to my friends who eventually bought some of his products, and they're like, "Oh, no, it's awesome. We loved it." And I started learning more, and I was like, "I think I was wrong." And so I sent Sam this message I think 18 or 24 months ago, and I was like, "I'm sorry." I, that was... Uh, for some reason, that one comment, it bothered me. And eventually, I saw Sam four weeks ago at a party, at Sophia's party, and I talked to him. And my wife and I talked to him for, like, an hour, and I was like, "You're, you're one of the more fascinating people that I've ever spoke to." And I was like, "Did you get that email where I apologized?" He said he got it. So that's kinda, like, how we got here. But Sam, what, um... How do you describe yourself? You had consulting.com, which was, like, a big information business, but you have a new thing. Uh, uh, you wanna, you wanna tell us, uh, uh, how you describe yourself?
8. SOSam Ovens
  Sure. Um, well, I'm a entrepreneur. Um, and I have a software company called Skool. I'm CEO of that. And it's, it's like a community platform for creators.
9. SPSam Parr
  You're, you're kind of underselling yourself there, eh? [laughs]
10. SOSam Ovens
  Well, what do you want me to say? [laughs]
11. SPSam Parr
  [laughs] The reason why I like hanging out with you is, Shaan, he reminds me of Jack Smith so much. Like, it's the same type of, like-
12. SPShaan Puri
  Yeah
13. SPSam Parr
  ... uh-
14. SPShaan Puri
  But the funny thing is, like, Jack, um, you're right. Uh, there's, like, definitely, like, a, uh, uh, an echo of Jack there, but Jack's... J- I, I almost feel like Jack picked business models that suited his, uh, like, personality and his, like, way of thinking. Um, whereas Sam, the funny thing is that when I discovered you, like Sam, I saw, um, this sort of, like, uh, outgoing persona. It's like guy who's p- you know, recording a selfie video of himself in his fancy apartment telling me something. It's sorta like, oh, this guy thinks he's some hotshot business guy, whatever. And now you talk now, and I'm like, "This guy owns a surf shop or something? Why is this guy, like, in the-
15. SOSam Ovens
  [laughs]
16. SPShaan Puri
  ... like, the most zen, [laughs] zen mode, almost introverted to an extent?" Um, isn't that strange? Was that strange for you to have, like, a very public persona even though you clearly are actually more of a, of a, of a laid back, maybe more introverted guy?
17. SOSam Ovens
  Yeah, I think that's why it rubbed people the wrong way, like Sam. Um, because, you know, that's kind of the thing that I didn't like about that business. Like, if you're selling training or coaching or whatever is you have to be very out there. You have to make content of yourself. You have to, you have to continuously promote yourself, right? And I was always very uncomfortable doing that. Um, and I guess I, I used, like, the New York apartment and the blue suit as, like, a-
18. SPShaan Puri
  A character
19. SOSam Ovens
  ... yeah, like a character or, like, a crutch to help me. You know what I mean?
20. SPShaan Puri
  Yeah, and it worked. You built consulting.com,
43:40 – 58:03
Why sell courses?
1. SPShaan Puri
  which was, like, a, uh, the way I'll describe it was, like, sort of like training, masterminds, courses type of thing, where you would teach people how to start their own consulting business. And people would pay you a few thousand dollars, and you, you would put out a bunch of free content, and then that would get people sort of in the funnel, and then eventually they would pay you a couple thousand dollars to learn how to start their own consulting business. And, uh, from what I understand, like, you scaled it up to, uh, about 30 million a year at one point, at sort of the peak on, on the revenue side, um, before being like, "This is too much and too crazy, and we've too many people, too little profits. We're pushing, like, you know, the boundary too much." You sort of scaled it back down, um, to a more manageable level where the revenue went down, but the profits went, you know, up or the same, um, a- and you had less headache. So it definitely worked. Did you g- where'd you get the idea for that? Were you just, like, in a basement watching Tai Lopez videos being like, "Okay, I understand. I can do this now"? Or, like, where, why did you decide to even do that?
2. SOSam Ovens
  You mean, like, sell courses?
3. SPShaan Puri
  Sell courses in the way that you sold them, which was just, like, a really heavy, uh, paid ad strategy with you as this character or this persona, the face of it.
4. SOSam Ovens
  Very internet marketing.
5. SPShaan Puri
  Yeah.
6. SOSam Ovens
  Well, um, I wanted to start my own business. I used to have a job. This is going back, like, 12 years. Um, and I used to watch this, this interview site called Mixergy. Do you guys remember that?
7. SPShaan Puri
  Yeah, yeah.
8. SPSam Parr
  Yeah, we love Andrew.
9. SOSam Ovens
  Yeah. Um, and I watched a, an interview one day, and this guy was saying that he was gonna show... He had a software company. His name was Dane Maxwell. And then he said he was gonna teach some other people how to start a software company, and that was my first experience of being in a course. He launched a course. It was called back then The Software Roundtable, and I learned how to start a software company in that and started a software company. It was called SnapInspect. And so I first experienced being in a course, like, from the student side. And through that experience, I, I had a successful software company, and then I was, like, the star student of that, of that Software Roundtable foundation thing. Um, so then I did an, he made me do an interview on Mixergy. This is back when I was very young. And then a bunch of people started emailing me and saying could I, they wanted to pay me so I could help them with their software company. And I would just sell, like, six one-hour Skype calls for $1,000. And then very quickly I ran out of time to sell. Like, I sold so many of these packages, and I just noticed that I was repeating myself on these calls, like, a lot. And I was like, "Oh, this, this could be a course." Everyone's, like, struggling with the same problems. And so, and I've run out of time, right? So the next guy I took through this six one-hour calls, I recorded the calls, and then I put them in a Dropbox folder. And then the people that wanted to buy my coaching from that point on, I said, "I don't have any time left, but I've got, like, a course that you can buy for the same price." And I would just sell it for $1,000 and give them a login to the Dropbox.
10. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs]
11. SOSam Ovens
  And they would watch the recordings in there, and they liked it, and they, they didn't ask for their money back. And like-
12. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs]
13. SOSam Ovens
  And that's where it started. And then when I sold more and more of those, I was like, "Whoa, this is, I should put some more effort into this." So I did, and then I, and then I wondered, "Well, how can I sell more of this instead of just waiting for people to come to me from my Mixergy interview and ask me over email?" So that's when I started learning about, like, internet marketing. Um, and then I remember the people back then were, like, Frank Kern, and who else? There was, like, Ramit Sethi. There was this guy called Clay Collins. Do you remember this era-
14. SPShaan Puri
  Yep
15. SOSam Ovens
  ... of, like, yeah. And so I just kinda got, I learned how to market from that world, like, that kinda underground internet marketing world. And that's, and then my course business started to do so good, it quickly overtook the, the profit of my software company. And I just wasn't very passionate about property management, which was the niche that my software product was for.
16. SPSam Parr
  Was that called SnapInspect?
17. SOSam Ovens
  Yeah. It still exists. It's snapinspect.com. And- I just wasn't passionate about the niche. Um, so I sold my shares of SnapInspect to my co-founder, and then just went all in on the course business, and that's what eventually became Consulting.com. And in the end, I was making courses showing people how to make courses. I just fell in love with the craft of, like, finding a group of people that you care about and solving their problems, and then sharing the solutions with them and turning that into a business.
18. SPShaan Puri
  How did you get the domain consulting.com? 'Cause that's a great domain.
19. SOSam Ovens
  Um, it was... I went to the domain, I went to the URL, and it was, there was nothing on it. And then I used, like, MX Toolbox to find out, like, who owned it, and then I just sent him an email and I said, "Do you wanna sell it?" And he said, yes.
20. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs] How much did you pay for that one?
21. SOSam Ovens
  Um, that one was 300,000.
22. SPSam Parr
  Just, um, just in the, the 10 minutes that you've just given that spiel and telling the background, and then the hour that I've hung out with you, you have this trait that I love that certain people have, where in your brain I could see... You're the type of person that you see a challenge, and you don't think of it like a lot of people think of it as, uh, an emotional thing, but it's very logical and you're like, "This is a puzzle. I'm gonna figure out this math equation," and that gives you joy, at least it seems like it. Um, with the marketing thing, it seems like the same thing, where you're like, "Well, th- if I wear this jacket, that will pop off in a thumbnail," and that's important for a higher click-through rate. And it's like you just read tons of books and you put together, like, an algorithm on what to do, and it, and that's why it, it didn't seem entirely authentic that that was who you were, but it seemed like you were just playing a game that you wanted to win. Is that how you went about it? And who did you, what interesting people did you learn the, the, the algorithm from that aren't entirely popular or that are, like, some strange resources?
23. SOSam Ovens
  I guess, you know, there was, I just looked at the people who were doing quite well, like, um, Brendon Burchard and Marie Forleo. This is back then. Um, and I kn- I noticed that they had, like, a, a s- if you thought of their name, you could quickly assign, like, a couple of attributes to them. They had, like, a brand essentially. And I was, like, this kid from New Zealand teaching people how to start a business. And so I was like, "Whatever it is, it needs to..." If when people see my video, they instantly need to think of money, basically.
24. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs]
25. SPSam Parr
  [laughs]
26. SOSam Ovens
  Um, and my main market is New Yor- I mean, my main market is America, and New York is, like, so iconic, and it me- it's, like, the money place, right? So that was why I went to New York, and why I found an apartment with a view like that.
27. SPSam Parr
  I heard a rumor that that apartment is almost, like, exactly the same apartment as something from, it was in, uh, Wolf of Wall Street or one of those, like, iconic money movies where they, like, hang a guy over the, the balcony. I heard that it, that you wanted that apartment for that reason. Is that true?
28. SOSam Ovens
  That isn't true. Um, I wanted the apartment 'cause it had a really cool view. But then we were watching that movie and we had to pause it and be like, "Wait a second. Is that this building?" And we realized it's not the same building, but it must be one of the five in that area that are all very close to each other.
29. SPSam Parr
  Got it.
30. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs] And so-
58:03 – 1:04:38
Getting traffic on Skool
1. SPSam Parr
  But your new company, Skool, it's, uh, whenever I was texting to you, it'd always, uh, autocorrect to stool. S-K-O-O-L. You were telling me, you didn't exactly say it this way, but I, I read it this way. You were telling me that you, you're like, "We're not taking any funding," or at least you're not anytime soon, because you self-funded it with 10 million. And you're like, "I'm hiring the best people." So you, like, went from, like, this, like, internet markety type of culture to startup. It, it, it, first of all, is that true? And second, was that number right, 10 million, so you, that you're going in on this?
2. SOSam Ovens
  It's true.
3. SPSam Parr
  And [laughs] and w- why the shift from, like, this startup where you, like, have hired all the, like, you're, you're running things very Silicon Valley-esque versus what I imagine in my head a lot of, uh, internet marketers are not like.
4. SOSam Ovens
  Well, I started in software, remember. The first company I ever did was SnapInspect. So I've always had a love for software. The problem back then, though, was I didn't love my market, like property managers, and I, we were constantly have, limited by our money. Like, you know, software engineers are expensive. Subscription revenue has a cash flow trough in it. Um, and so we were limited by money, and I didn't love my market, but I did love software. And I also hated, like, having to market. I swore I was never gonna touch software again unless it had network effects, 'cause I wanted it to grow itself basically, like a platform instead of a software tool. Um, so then I fell in love with courses, and that, the beauty of that was, like, I was able to save a lot of money. Um, and then I came back to software because I now was building software for the market that I loved, which was, like, online creators, and I had money this time, so I wouldn't be limited by that. I could get the best engineers and not cut corners on anything and take a more long-term view. Um, and this was a platform opportunity instead of, like, a software tool. So we didn't have to have a marketing or sales team. Um, and we had no, like, CAC. Um-
5. SPShaan Puri
  And h- how is this growing? 'Cause I see the traffic is, like, I don't know, 8 million visits a month or something insane like that. Um, looks like you got an affiliate program here. W- if you're not running marketing, w- where's the growth coming from? 'Cause I get that there's network effects. But, um-
6. SPSam Parr
  That's way more than, like, Circle Doc. So is it called Circle? That's way more than a lot of, like, high VC competitors, the traffic, I believe.
7. SPShaan Puri
  Yeah. So I don't know if the number's right, but let, let's, let's say it's ballpark.
8. SOSam Ovens
  It's more than double Circle, yeah.
9. SPShaan Puri
  Um, how are you getting so much traffic?
10. SOSam Ovens
  It's a community platform, so, you know, once you, once you start a community and you add some content to it, the first thing you do is you invite members, right? And then what happens is roughly 1% of members create their own community. So they're like, "Oh, this platform's cool. I wanna make one of these." And then they create their own, and then they invite their members, and then that... There's a, there's a loop there, or a network effect.
11. SPShaan Puri
  When you were doing your content stuff, um, your ads, I had read stuff like you, um, did some interesting things. Like you, we talked about, like, the apartment, and the suit, and, uh, I don't know, you had, like, a motorcycle in the middle of the room, and stuff like that. What were some interesting experiments that you ran that, um, that either worked or didn't work, that sort of taught you something about, you know, human psychology, or the way that people's... What gets people's attention, what peop- what gets people interested, what gets them hooked? What are some learnings from all those different kind of content experiments you did when you were doing, uh, when you were making, you know, when, when your, your content, your face was the, was the driver?
12. SOSam Ovens
  Well, a lot of people just wanna make money. Like, that one was annoying. So, like, if you just put a jet in something, or a fancy car, or a, a New York apartment, like, it works so well that it's, it's annoying 'cause you're like, "Oh, do I have to do that shit?"
13. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs]
14. SOSam Ovens
  Aren't people just, won't they just listen to the value of the idea? But that's what I learned back then when I was doing those experiments. I think now people are looking for, like, longer form real stuff that, like a podcast. Podcasts are really taking off, right? Um, so I think the people that are doing a good job now is, like, what you guys are doing. I think having a podcast and an email newsletter, that's what I would do if I was starting again right now. Um, that those two work really well together.
15. SPSam Parr
  We have this friend, Rebecca Zamalo, who, um, has tens of millions, or maybe 15 or something million YouTube subscribers, and she only launched it in, like, 2017, not that long ago. And I was like, "Rebecca, why'd you get so big?" And she goes, "I took it like a job." So, like, I got laid off or I quit, I forget what happened with her other job, and she goes, "This is now my thing." So it was, like, a 40-hour work week. It's like, "This is all I'm doing." And I was like, "Well, doesn't everyone do that?" She said, "No. Shockingly, no." Most of, of a lot of popular YouTubers, it starts as a side ho- hobby, and even when they're, like, fairly big, it's still not full time. But she's like, "I just treat this son of a bitch like a company. Like, I just ran it like a company." And, and it worked out. So I think that, like, that focusing-
16. SPShaan Puri
  No, no, no chance she said son of a bitch. [laughs]
17. SPSam Parr
  No, no chance she said son of a bitch. I, I added it.
18. SPShaan Puri
  That, that, that was you.
19. SPSam Parr
  That's a Sam Parr special. [laughs]
20. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs]
21. SPSam Parr
  Maybe, maybe I subbed that out. Maybe it was like, "You know, I took this wonderful thing very seriously." Uh [laughs]
22. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs] Yeah.
23. SPSam Parr
  Yeah, you've been pr- you've been pretty good with focus. I mean, that's... W- why even sell consulting.com if it's, like, doing well and you're not working on it? I mean, uh, you're, you're a bo- you seem like you're, you're very, very, very focused on shit. I mean, just to go 10 million on that, on Skool, i- is that a, was that a significant chunk for you to do that?
24. SPShaan Puri
  And was that, like, a verbal commitment, like, "I'm willing to do up to X," or did you literally wire into a bank account and say, "That's now in the company. It, that's being used for this company. It's, we're, we're burning that"?
25. SOSam Ovens
  That, yeah, that. Like, I bought a house, 'cause, you know, I've got a wife and family. So I bought a house, and I left some money in the personal account for, like, family. And then I was like, "Everything else I'm just, I'm betting on this company." Um-
26. SPSam Parr
  S- so n- n- no other portfolio?
27. SOSam Ovens
  Nothing.
28. SPShaan Puri
  How big
1:04:38 – 1:06:22
How large will Skool become?
1. SPShaan Puri
  do you think Skool's gonna be?
2. SOSam Ovens
  [laughs] Well, that's hard to answer. There's what I would like it to be.
3. SPSam Parr
  Which is what?
4. SOSam Ovens
  I've always wanted to build something that a billion people use.
5. SPSam Parr
  What are you, how are you sleeping at night knowing that you're holding, or a lot of your nut is in there? That's a very stressful thing.
6. SOSam Ovens
  Quite well at the moment, but-
7. SPSam Parr
  [laughs]
8. SOSam Ovens
  ... because things are going really well. Um, you know, it, the growth is compounding pretty fast, and top tier VCs email us every week. So I, like, and they, I've had to just stop talking to them. Um, and a lot of people wanna give us money, but we're not taking it. And so I think the fact that a lot of people wanna give me money has allowed me to calm down [laughs] quite a lot, that I'm not, that we're not gonna run out of money. Um, also just the gro-
9. SPShaan Puri
  Well, is it profitable?
10. SOSam Ovens
  No, it's not. But deliberately so.
11. SPShaan Puri
  Okay, fair enough. And, um, where'd you base the company? Uh, is it remote, or are people in, uh, in America, New Zealand? Where, where are you, where are your people?
12. SOSam Ovens
  Um, everyone's in LA and San Fran.
13. SPShaan Puri
  Okay. And do you, um, you, like, when we've, when Sam says he re- you remind him of Jack Smith, one of the cool things about Jack Smith is that while he's clever and interesting on the business side, he's also clever and weird and does crazy experiments also in his personal life. Uh, whether it's, like, sort of biohacking, or a lifestyle choice, or n- not naming his child until she was one years old. Like, whatever. It, parent- parenting, everything. He, he takes sort of, like, a novel approach to each thing. I'm curious,
1:06:22 – 1:19:30
Are you weird in other areas of your life?
1. SPShaan Puri
  are you weird in other areas of your life? Do you do anything that's sort of non-standard, that to you makes sense but maybe to other people sounds a little strange?
2. SOSam Ovens
  I'm sure. [laughs]
3. SPShaan Puri
  Would you like to say any examples since this is a podcast?
4. SOSam Ovens
  Um, I mean, I slept on a futon for, like, three years, and I loved it, and then when my wife got pregnant, she, she made me give it up.
5. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs]
6. SOSam Ovens
  But I really miss that futon. You know a Japanese futon?
7. SPShaan Puri
  Yeah.
8. SOSam Ovens
  I love that thing. Um, I just like to keep things very simple and minimal. Like, I only have one pair of shoes, and I only have, like, the same type of socks and the same kind of, like, underwear, and the same T-shirts, and then, like, three wool jumpers, and that's all I have. And then I have the same soap, like this tea tree soap, and I just have, like, 20 blocks of it.
9. SPSam Parr
  [laughs]
10. SOSam Ovens
  And I, I even take one with me when I travel, 'cause I only like that soap. Um, I, like, don't wear sunglasses 'cause I think they're unnecessary. Um, and I just like to reduce things just to- I like to find something that I think is good, and then only use that, and then just get a few different pairs of that, and just keep things as simple and as minimal as humanly possible.
11. SPSam Parr
  Is your wife normal?
12. SOSam Ovens
  [laughs] Yeah, she is.
13. SPSam Parr
  [laughs]
14. SOSam Ovens
  [laughs]
15. SPSam Parr
  We were... [laughs] The reason why one of the things you said, we were sitting around, Shaan. It was me, Sam, and my wife Sarah. We were sitting around at this restaurant, and Sam, you have- you've got some strange ener- energy in a very cool way. You've got very strange and cool energy that I like. I love people like you. And we were just sitting around, and the conversation kinda died, and we were just sit- we sat in silence for, like, three seconds, I think, and then you just said, "I delivered my baby." And we were like-
16. SOSam Ovens
  [laughs]
17. SPSam Parr
  [laughs] We were like, "What? With what?" And you said, "My hands." [laughs]
18. SOSam Ovens
  [laughs]
19. SPSam Parr
  And we were like [laughs] we were like, "Hold on. Say, say this again." [laughs] And, and you were talking about how your wife, uh, uh, she, uh, uh, you were gonna do, like, a home delivery or something, and the midwife didn't make it in time, and, and you just did the damn thing. You- and you just did it. And I remember thinking, like, "The reason I love this guy is I don't think he understands, like, how stran-..." Like, your mannerisms, your voice, they're, this is, they're so unique and strange in such an interesting way, um, which I frankly love. I love people like you because you're so unique and you're not vanilla. Do you realize that you're like that?
20. SOSam Ovens
  Honestly, not really, because I don't, I don't try to fit in, and I don't try to, like... I don't even look at what other people are doing. Like, I don't have social media at all. Um, and I never look at really what's going on or what's in the news or anything.
21. SPSam Parr
  Um-
22. SOSam Ovens
  And I just do what I want. [laughs]
23. SPSam Parr
  So what do you do with that free time? So let's say no social media, no news. For most people, that's, like, four to five hours a day or something like that. Um, how do you reinvest that four to five hours a day? Where do you put it? What, what does give you energy or, or what do you do for entertainment or what do you do to, to unwind?
24. SOSam Ovens
  I mean, all I really do is focus on Skool, and that's mostly the product. So I'm just obsessive about the product, all the details of it. And then I go home, hang out with my wife and daughter, and then I need two hours of, like, watching something to, to unwind. Otherwise, I can't sleep. And so I'll, I'll watch series, like TV series, and I like old stuff, like things before technology, 'cause it's, it's nice and slow and it helps me go to sleep.
25. SPSam Parr
  But when you say you're obsessive, what does that mean? Like, do people like working with you? Like, are, are you the type of guy who, like, if something very small at the footer is screwed up, you freak out over that?
26. SOSam Ovens
  Yeah, I can see a pixel. So if something's off, like, I'm like, "Something's off over there," and then I'll inspect it with Chrome Inspector and it will be one pixel.
27. SPSam Parr
  [laughs]
28. SOSam Ovens
  So I can, like... I've- I joke with the team that I can see a pixel. Um, and yeah, I'll, I'll go into those details. Like, I designed Skool's interface in Figma, like the whole thing, um, and defined a lot of, like, how that entire system works, which is, it's quite complex.
29. SPSam Parr
  Well, I knew you were like that because when Consulting.com first came out, most courses don't- didn't look the way your- yours looked. Yours had this, like, you had this really cool thing of a, it was like a caveman becoming a, a person. Uh, right? Is that what it was? And then it was, like, a picture of the globe, and it, uh, it looked like a software page. It, it looked very unique, and I remember seeing the design of it, and I thought, "That is incredibly unique," and it stood out. It made you feel more sophisticated than most other people in the space. Um, do you remember that page? Am I describing it-
30. SOSam Ovens
  I do, yeah
1:19:30 – 1:20:54
Why Sam's not into A.I.
1. SPSam Parr
  why did someone... Someone told me to ask you what you think about AI. Why did they say that?
2. SOSam Ovens
  [laughs] Um, well, I think it's, like, massively overhyped and somewhat, like, just unnecessary. Like, I don't know about you guys, but ChatGPT hasn't replaced my Google usage. I still use Google every day. Um, and I've found no real task for it, honestly. It seem- But the hype is extreme.
3. SPSam Parr
  Well, the hype cycle is there around, like, the growth, and they're like, "Well, it's, it's not there yet, but I can see the future of this." So you're not bullish at all on the future of it?
4. SOSam Ovens
  No.
5. SPSam Parr
  [laughs]
6. SPShaan Puri
  All right. I'll take the other side of that. Um, Sam, anything else you wanna ask before we, we wrap up?
7. SPSam Parr
  No, I, I appreciate you coming. I fi- I wanna talk to you again another time. I find you fascinating. I think that you're an original thinker, and I appreciate people like you.
8. SOSam Ovens
  Thanks.
9. SPSam Parr
  Uh, all right.
10. SPShaan Puri
  [laughs]
11. SPSam Parr
  Well, that's, that's the pod.
12. SPShaan Puri
  That's it. [laughs] [upbeat music]