Tim Ferriss: Why You Should Stop Over-Optimizing Your Life

1. 0:00 – 7:22

   Tim’s "What's next?" framework

   1. SPShaan Puri0:00

      By the way, this episode... Where's the camera? This is, this episode's not for you. This episode's for me.

   2. TFTim Ferriss0:05

      [laughs]

   3. SPShaan Puri0:05

      I've been listening to this guy for a long time. I read his books. I, I used to g- gift... Your, your book was one of the most gifted books I had for, like, a long time, maybe the first 10 years of my-

   4. TFTim Ferriss0:13

      Thank you

   5. SPShaan Puri0:13

      ... my career.

   6. TFTim Ferriss0:14

      Thank you.

   7. SPShaan Puri0:14

      And I would say, "You're about to... I'm giving you the four-hour fever." They're like, "It's called The 4-Hour Workweek."

   8. TFTim Ferriss0:18

      [laughs]

   9. SPShaan Puri0:18

      I was like, "You're gonna read this, and then for four hours, you're gonna question everything in your life. I call that the four-hour fever. It's normal. Don't worry. Call a doctor if it lasts beyond four hours."

   10. TFTim Ferriss0:25

       [laughs] [upbeat music]

   11. SPShaan Puri0:35

       And so today, I have, like, a bunch of things that I think maybe the audience wants to know. Honestly, I don't give a shit. I just wanted to ask you the questions that I wanna know.

   12. TFTim Ferriss0:42

       I think that's the key to a good podcast.

   13. SPShaan Puri0:43

       Exactly. So, um, one of the things I wanted to know is you talked about this space where you're like, "I'm thinking about what's next." I've been there. I sold my company. What's next?

   14. TFTim Ferriss0:52

       Oh.

   15. SPShaan Puri0:52

       I have a lot of friends that are in that spot.

   16. TFTim Ferriss0:54

       I'm there right now.

   17. SPShaan Puri0:54

       Yeah. And h- what's the, what's the approach? Because it can be paralyzing to have a thousand options.

   18. TFTim Ferriss1:00

       Yeah.

   19. SPShaan Puri1:01

       Especially when you have a track record. You have a track record of success now. That almost adds some difficulty to the, to the, to the answer of what's next, 'cause it's gotta be good. It can't be, it can't be something tiny, right?

   20. TFTim Ferriss1:11

       Oh, I think it can.

   21. SPShaan Puri1:11

       How does Tim Ferriss approach the what's next question?

   22. TFTim Ferriss1:13

       Yeah, I think it can be tiny, in a sense, right? I mean, let's just... I'll answer your question, but let's just note that the podcast started as I'm gonna try to do six episodes.

   23. SPShaan Puri1:24

       It's tiny. Right.

   24. TFTim Ferriss1:24

       That's tiny.

   25. SPShaan Puri1:25

       So did this podcast, by the way.

   26. TFTim Ferriss1:25

       Yeah.

   27. SPShaan Puri1:26

       This is a, this is a tiny podcast.

   28. TFTim Ferriss1:27

       Right. So I think that, to quote, uh, Seth Godin, who is really wise beyond even what people would expect. I mean, and he walks the walk. He's a real operator who has authored a contrarian... Not so contrarian. It's an unorthodox life for himself, and s- I have a lot of respect for Seth. And, you know, he said, "Big things, the big dreams, changing the world, those are easy to hide behind."

   29. SPShaan Puri1:53

       Mm.

   30. TFTim Ferriss1:53

       He's like, "But doing the smallest thing possible, the next action, you can't hide behind that."
2. 7:22 – 12:11

   Creativity gyms + why money doesn't buy happiness

   1. SPShaan Puri7:22

      I'll tell you two, uh, related things on that.

   2. TFTim Ferriss7:23

      Yeah.

   3. SPShaan Puri7:23

      Last night I was at dinner with, I think a mutual friend, Joe-

   4. TFTim Ferriss7:26

      Gebbia. Yeah. Yeah.

   5. SPShaan Puri7:26

      Uh, Gebbia, yeah.

   6. TFTim Ferriss7:27

      Mm-hmm.

   7. SPShaan Puri7:27

      A, a founder of Airbnb, and he was saying, he's like, "Oh, what are you in town for?" I was like, "I'm doing a couple podcasts." And we were talking about it. He's like, "Okay, so what's like, what's like a win?" You know, like, "Why, why do you do that? You fly into town, you leave your kids, you, you make an effort. What are you looking for out of these?" I said, "Well, I just want to leave with more energy than I came, and really I want the guest to feel that way too."

   8. TFTim Ferriss7:46

      Mm-hmm.

   9. SPShaan Puri7:46

      Like, at the end of the day, like, what is the only way I can guarantee a success out of this is if you walk out of here feeling energized rather than drained from this conversation.

   10. TFTim Ferriss7:55

       Mm-hmm.

   11. SPShaan Puri7:55

       And if that's a... So I've, I've been using that heuristic, and it's so powerful to use-

   12. TFTim Ferriss7:59

       Mm-hmm

   13. SPShaan Puri7:59

       ... the kind of like where is my energy after activity and how am I leaving the people around me-

   14. TFTim Ferriss8:04

       Yeah

   15. SPShaan Puri8:04

       ... also is, is you want it to be mutually beneficial in that way.

   16. TFTim Ferriss8:07

       Yeah.

   17. SPShaan Puri8:07

       The second thing he said was, that I thought you'd find interesting.

   18. TFTim Ferriss8:09

       Mm-hmm.

   19. SPShaan Puri8:10

       I was like, um, we were going through this exercise I do called the perfect Tuesday. So I was like, life is not really about these peak experiences. Like, yes, those, like going and seeing, like, there's the total eclipse happening. Go and see this total eclipse. A- apparently it's like a totally emotional experience if you're there. I think it's happening in Dallas this weekend-

   20. TFTim Ferriss8:26

       Yeah

   21. SPShaan Puri8:26

       ... or whatever. There are those moments, but they're few and far between. Most of your life is just like Tuesdays, just normal Tuesdays over and over again.

   22. TFTim Ferriss8:33

       Yeah.

   23. SPShaan Puri8:33

       And so put a lot of effort into thinking like, what's a dream average day for me, and then try to live that dream. And so we were talking about it and I asked him, I said, "Like, how close are you to your perfect Tuesday?" He's got all the resources in the world, right?

   24. TFTim Ferriss8:43

       Yeah.

   25. SPShaan Puri8:44

       He sold Airbnb. He, uh, uh, they went public. It's, it's a super success. And one of the things he said, he goes, "That's a great question. I go to the gym for my physical, my, to get my, like, to physically fulfill myself, and then I work, which is great and I feel productive and useful to the world, and I have my family, which is love." He's like, "But I don't really make time for creativity anymore." He's like, "I'm a-"

   26. TFTim Ferriss9:05

       Mm-hmm.

   27. SPShaan Puri9:06

       He's a designer by-

   28. TFTim Ferriss9:06

       Yeah

   29. SPShaan Puri9:07

       ... by trade.

   30. TFTim Ferriss9:07

       Totally.
3. 12:11 – 15:51

   Book Recommendation: The New Toughness Training for Sports

   1. TFTim Ferriss12:11

      of ways to do that.

   2. SPShaan Puri12:12

      I got a book recommendation from you.

   3. TFTim Ferriss12:13

      Oh, yeah. I haven't seen that-

   4. SPShaan Puri12:15

      This book is a-

   5. TFTim Ferriss12:15

      ... a few decades

   6. SPShaan Puri12:16

      Yeah.

   7. TFTim Ferriss12:17

      It's an old book.

   8. SPShaan Puri12:17

      I had never even heard of this book. So-

   9. TFTim Ferriss12:18

      It's an old book

   10. SPShaan Puri12:18

       ... this book is called, uh, Toughness Training for Sports, and it's by Jim Loehr. Um, do you remember anything from this book? This, uh, you, you probably read this a long time ago.

   11. TFTim Ferriss12:27

       I mean, I read that when I was probably 15 or 16, and I do remember that there is an inventory, there's an assessment in there that's two or three pages long, and you're intended to give that to your coaches, peers-

   12. SPShaan Puri12:44

       People around you

   13. TFTim Ferriss12:44

       ... teachers, people around you.

   14. SPShaan Puri12:45

       Right.

   15. TFTim Ferriss12:46

       Effectively for like a three s- what I would call now a 360 review-

   16. SPShaan Puri12:49

       Right

   17. TFTim Ferriss12:50

       ... of different factors that affect mental toughness.

   18. SPShaan Puri12:54

       Yeah.

   19. TFTim Ferriss12:55

       And I did that when I was 15 or 16.

   20. SPShaan Puri12:57

       It's, uh, this one, right?

   21. TFTim Ferriss12:58

       Oh, there you go. Yeah, there we go. So The Competitive Adjective Profile. Yeah, so there's, there's... I found this book incredibly helpful, and later had Jim Loehr on the podcast, did some training with him, and a, and a tennis pro with tennis. And having that 360 review from a mental toughness perspective was incredibly helpful to me. It, it provided me with a level of awareness that I, I, I couldn't have developed on my own.

   22. SPShaan Puri13:32

       Right.

   23. TFTim Ferriss13:33

       And-

   24. SPShaan Puri13:35

       One of the things it talks about is basically, if you haven't read the book, it's like there's talent you're born with.

   25. TFTim Ferriss13:40

       Yep.

   26. SPShaan Puri13:41

       There's skills, which everybody else understands. You practice.

   27. TFTim Ferriss13:43

       Mm-hmm.

   28. SPShaan Puri13:43

       And then there's performance.

   29. TFTim Ferriss13:45

       Yep.

   30. SPShaan Puri13:46

       And there's a gap between talent and skill. That gap is called practice. There's a gap between skills and performance, and that's basically your toughness training. It's the-
4. 15:51 – 23:06

   Tim Ferriss's perfectly optimized day

   1. TFTim Ferriss15:51

      In terms of ideal performance states, I, I've become less focused on optimization [laughs] -

   2. SPShaan Puri15:57

      Right

   3. TFTim Ferriss15:57

      ... overall, I would say-

   4. SPShaan Puri15:59

      [laughs]

   5. TFTim Ferriss15:59

      ... just because so much of it just does not fucking matter at all.

   6. SPShaan Puri16:03

      [laughs]

   7. TFTim Ferriss16:03

      And the amount of-

   8. SPShaan Puri16:04

      Breaking news, Tim Ferriss, optimization. [laughs]

   9. TFTim Ferriss16:07

      Yeah, I mean, there's a place for it.

   10. SPShaan Puri16:08

       Who needs it? [laughs]

   11. TFTim Ferriss16:09

       There's a place for it. There's a place for it, but it's like, are you taking a taxi from the s-the, the start-

   12. SPShaan Puri16:16

       [laughs]

   13. TFTim Ferriss16:16

       ... to the finish line of a marathon because it's efficient? I mean, like-

   14. SPShaan Puri16:18

       [laughs]

   15. TFTim Ferriss16:19

       ... you know, speed reading poetry, it's-

   16. SPShaan Puri16:21

       Right. [laughs]

   17. TFTim Ferriss16:21

       ... like there's, there's a, there's a, I suppose, a cult of optimization that is appealing on a lot of levels, but it ends up being a hammer looking for nails, and it gets applied to everything, and I think that that misses the forest for the trees sometimes, and I'm, I've been guilty of that for sure. So it, but in terms of optimization, I would say that let's take today as an example. So I had a great day today. Today was pretty uncrowded. I had a few team calls, meaning employee calls, earlier today. Uh, typically those are on Tuesday, but it got sh- shifted forward because I was traveling yesterday. Beautiful day outside here in Austin, which helps, of course.

   18. SPShaan Puri17:03

       Yeah.

   19. TFTim Ferriss17:03

       Went for a walk, got a cold brew coffee, had a phone call with a friend, came back, did a bit of work, knocked off a few emails or a couple of pending angel investments and deals of that type, and I had to get back to some lawyers and so on. That took 15, 20 minutes. Printed out some documents to prepare for a podcast that I recorded earlier today, and then did a seven-minute, I guess it was about a seven-minute cold plunge at 40 degrees, which is pretty chilly. That'll wake you up.

   20. SPShaan Puri17:33

       Seven minutes continuous?

   21. TFTim Ferriss17:35

       Yeah. That's-

   22. SPShaan Puri17:36

       Solid

   23. TFTim Ferriss17:36

       ... that'll, that'll wake you up. And I use that in part because I knew that we would be recording this late, and I didn't wanna consume too much caffeine early in the day-

   24. SPShaan Puri17:45

       Mm

   25. TFTim Ferriss17:45

       ... and then consume way too much caffeine throughout the day and end up not being able to sleep, since we're recording this at night. And also then had a little bit of titration with like a light green tea before recording my own podcast. After walking a bit, had some synthetic ketones, so beta-hydroxybutyrate, which does help cognitive performance quite a bit. So it can act as a stand-in for me for more caffeine. So it's a blended, let's just say like tail end of the cold brew, green tea about 30 minutes prior, and then also the synthetic ketones about 30 minutes prior. And light meals, so very light meals. I, if I have a lot of mental lifting to do, then I, I generally eat pretty lightly, mostly protein, a little bit of fat, small amount of carbohydrate. And here we are. That's the day.

   26. SPShaan Puri18:37

       Yeah.

   27. TFTim Ferriss18:37

       Right? I got a great night's sleep last night, which isn't always the case, but was the case last night. And for me, that is an optimized day. There's not a lot crammed into it. I'm not executing this sophisticated time management Tetris to-

   28. SPShaan Puri18:54

       [laughs]

   29. TFTim Ferriss18:55

       ... be as efficient as possible, but I'm keeping the main thing the main thing. Like, the main things were team one-on-one calls, being physiologically and just literally, I guess, prepared in terms of documentation research for podcasts that I recorded, and then being in a good state for having this conversation. That's it.

   30. SPShaan Puri19:20

       Right.
5. 23:06 – 32:03

   The art of podcasting

   1. SPShaan Puri23:06

      Um, I wanna ask you about your book thing in a second, but before we do that, tea- you said teaching. Teach me, uh, about the art of podcasting. You've been doing this for 10 years now.

   2. TFTim Ferriss23:14

      Yeah.

   3. SPShaan Puri23:15

      You've done many a high-stakes interview, whether it's pick your favorite famous person or pick-

   4. TFTim Ferriss23:20

      Yeah

   5. SPShaan Puri23:21

      ... a person you admire.

   6. TFTim Ferriss23:22

      Mm-hmm.

   7. SPShaan Puri23:22

      What can you teach me about the first five minutes of a podcast?

   8. TFTim Ferriss23:27

      First five minutes.

   9. SPShaan Puri23:28

      Maybe five seconds. I don't know.

   10. TFTim Ferriss23:30

       Yeah, I mean-

   11. SPShaan Puri23:30

       The beginning of a podcast.

   12. TFTim Ferriss23:31

       Yeah, I mean, the most important five minutes are the conversation I have before I start recording with someone. [laughs]

   13. SPShaan Puri23:37

       Okay.

   14. TFTim Ferriss23:37

       So that would be putting them at ease to the extent possible, right? My job is to make you look as good as possible. Every guest has final cut.

   15. SPShaan Puri23:48

       Mm-hmm.

   16. TFTim Ferriss23:49

       So let it all hang out, and we can cut whatever you wanna cut.

   17. SPShaan Puri23:53

       Right.

   18. TFTim Ferriss23:53

       You'll get a transcript. Nothing's gonna get published before you give it the okay. And-

   19. SPShaan Puri23:58

       Put the walls down a little bit.

   20. TFTim Ferriss23:59

       Yeah, put the walls down, general housekeeping so they don't get distracted. Like, if you need to take a water break, bathroom break, pause, stop, you wanna start a story over again, that's all totally fine. I'll keep an eye out for things that I think we might wanna cut, like if you accidentally mention your kids' names or something like that. So they're like, "Oh, this guy's, A, done a lot, B, is actually looking out for me."

   21. SPShaan Puri24:22

       Hmm.

   22. TFTim Ferriss24:23

       see, has actually sat in my seat-

   23. SPShaan Puri24:26

       Right

   24. TFTim Ferriss24:26

       ... interviewee seat a lot, and I always ask, and like nobody, almost nobody asks this. It's, uh, [chuckles] it's such an easy layup in terms of differentiating yourself. Ask interviewees what, what does success would be? Like, what would... You look at back at this, I asked my inter- the interviewee this, this morning about this. I said, "Six months from now, you look back and you say, 'I'm so glad I did that.'"

   25. SPShaan Puri24:49

       Hmm.

   26. TFTim Ferriss24:50

       Why? Like, what does success look like? And even if they don't have an answer, they're so unaccustomed to being asked anything like that. They're like, "Huh." And-

   27. SPShaan Puri25:00

       It's like being a good boyfriend. It's like he cares.

   28. TFTim Ferriss25:02

       [laughs]

   29. SPShaan Puri25:02

       It doesn't even matter i- if he brought me the water, I, it doesn't even... I could have got the water myself.

   30. TFTim Ferriss25:06

       [laughs]
6. 32:03 – 38:42

   From selling supplements to published author

   1. TFTim Ferriss32:03

      going on.

   2. SPShaan Puri32:03

      Right. I heard this great quote from my buddy. How much has the world benefited that Tim Ferriss decided not to just keep selling supplements and to do, like-

   3. TFTim Ferriss32:10

      Mm

   4. SPShaan Puri32:10

      ... to do other things? Like, what would the world have been like had that not happened? I think that's a-

   5. TFTim Ferriss32:14

      That's very kind

   6. SPShaan Puri32:14

      ... it's a great compliment for you.

   7. TFTim Ferriss32:15

      Yeah, very, huge compliment. Very kind.

   8. SPShaan Puri32:17

      If you go from selling supplements, which makes a lot of money, it's like a very clear, direct payoff-

   9. TFTim Ferriss32:22

      Mm

   10. SPShaan Puri32:22

       ... and you could do good at it, to being an author, that's like-

   11. TFTim Ferriss32:26

       [laughs]

   12. SPShaan Puri32:26

       ... you know, not usually a good c- it's not usually an upward-

   13. TFTim Ferriss32:28

       Yeah

   14. SPShaan Puri32:28

       ... career move, let's say.

   15. TFTim Ferriss32:29

       No.

   16. SPShaan Puri32:30

       So why'd you do it?

   17. TFTim Ferriss32:32

       Uh, well, there, there are a few things I would say. So the first is that I didn't end up selling the supplement company until 2009.

   18. SPShaan Puri32:39

       Mm.

   19. TFTim Ferriss32:39

       So whenever possible, I have things running in parallel. I do not view myself as a risk-taker. Like, if anything, I would be-

   20. SPShaan Puri32:47

       Risk reducer

   21. TFTim Ferriss32:48

       ... risk reducer, like risk mitigator-

   22. SPShaan Puri32:50

       Yeah

   23. TFTim Ferriss32:50

       ... for sure. Like, I'm very good at capping downside risk.

   24. SPShaan Puri32:54

       Right.

   25. TFTim Ferriss32:54

       And in this particular case, I already knew that from a, from a, from an intellectual perspective, that sounds too pompous-

   26. SPShaan Puri33:06

       [laughs]

   27. TFTim Ferriss33:06

       ... but I'm struggling to find a better modifier. Let me put it a different way. My learning curve with the sports nutrition supplement world had flattened largely. I n- I understood the basic mechanics. I understood distribution. It wasn't that interesting to me.

   28. SPShaan Puri33:22

       No.

   29. TFTim Ferriss33:22

       And it was also an industry that was and still is marred by a lot of bad behavior-

   30. SPShaan Puri33:27

       Right
7. 38:42 – 42:23

   Law of Category

   1. TFTim Ferriss38:42

      Yeah.

   2. SPShaan Puri38:43

      I wanna ask you about a different, a couple of your like principle, core principles that I have found very useful, and I want you to unpack them. One is the Law of Category.

   3. TFTim Ferriss38:52

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SPShaan Puri38:53

      Can you explain what is the Law of Category and maybe how you used it?

   5. TFTim Ferriss38:57

      Sure. The Law of Category is, is taken directly from a book called The 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing. The Law of Category, in brief, is a description of the power of creating new categories. So rather than trying to be the best in a crowded category, trying to be the only in a new category. That's where Amstel Light comes in.

   6. SPShaan Puri39:19

      Mm.

   7. TFTim Ferriss39:19

      Like, the, the first light imported beer. Okay. There you go.

   8. SPShaan Puri39:24

      [laughs]

   9. TFTim Ferriss39:24

      Or in the US, let's just say low-cost airlines, Southwest. Right? And there are a million examples that you could find. The, the Law of Category is also, I would say, uh, an encapsulation of something that might be called the Blue Ocean Strategy versus the Red Ocean Strategy. So there's a book called The, The Blue Ocean Strategy I would also recommend that people read in combination with this chapter from The 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing, The Law of Category. I think I put it in either Tools of Titans or Tribe Mentors. I liked it that much. I went to-

   10. SPShaan Puri40:02

       Right

   11. TFTim Ferriss40:03

       ... I went through all the brain damage of getting permissions to include it. [laughs] And they, those two pair well with an article you can find for free, you can read it in 15 minutes, called 1,000 True Fans by Kevin Kelly on kk.org. You can find that. And they're all driving at the same thing, which is positioning and differentiation and trying to figure out how you can be the first something. Now, some- sometimes that turns into a bunch of hand-wavy smoke and mirrors nonsense like we d- like we discussed earlier, but at least as an exercise, it's, it's worth considering because, for instance, one of the questions I was gonna ask you, which you can, you can answer or, and we can just use it as a sample question, was when a diehard fan of your show is talking to someone who does not know the show, how would you ideally like them to describe the show?

   12. SPShaan Puri40:58

       Hmm.

   13. TFTim Ferriss40:59

       Right? And that is a question of positioning, 'cause branding, it gets turned into this huge process with flowcharts and tons of agencies and companies and this and that. And sure, I'm sure there are people who are, are, are very sophisticated with their approach, but at the end of the day, for me, brand is what people consistently associate X with. X could be you, X could be the show, right? How do they describe it?

   14. SPShaan Puri41:25

       Right.

   15. TFTim Ferriss41:26

       That's it. That's your brand. I mean, just like a brand. Like, where does the term brand come from? Like, brand on cattle.

   16. SPShaan Puri41:31

       Right.

   17. TFTim Ferriss41:32

       So from that perspective, I, I think it's very useful when you're considering doing a new project. It's not how can I be the best competing in the same way against people doing the same thing.

   18. SPShaan Puri41:45

       Right.

   19. TFTim Ferriss41:45

       Uh, that is not the frame. And even if you end up emulating other people or borrowing best practices, I think it makes sense to start with examining the Law of Category and thinking about Blue Ocean approaches, which is why, for instance, with my podcast, we're now at the 10th anniversary, and I don't s- I don't really see a viable path forward for me that is heavily video-focused, even though I think there are gonna be some significant [clears throat] taxes to pay for that. Podcasts have a huge discoverability problem-

8. 42:23 – 54:12

   Barbell strategy for Youtube

   1. SPShaan Puri42:23

      Yes

   2. TFTim Ferriss42:23

      ... and a huge long-term, uh, surface ability problem. And YouTube offers a solution in the form of, what is it? The second largest-

   3. SPShaan Puri42:37

      Search engine

   4. TFTim Ferriss42:37

      ... English language search engine in the world.

   5. SPShaan Puri42:39

      Right.

   6. TFTim Ferriss42:42

      I understand why it makes sense for a lot of people to harness that as one engine for growth. Makes a lot of sense. But it's crowded. It's really crowded. By anyone's definition, it would be a red ocean, and it's definitely gonna get redder. And for that reason, maybe I make the decision in six months, "You know what? Fuck it. I'm gonna go whole hog. Let's see what happens."

   7. SPShaan Puri43:09

      Right.

   8. TFTim Ferriss43:10

      Right? But I don't have p- I don't have a really high degree of enthusiasm for that right now, and enthusiasm's important, right? I'm s- which means I'm not gonna have the endurance compared to someone like Chris-

   9. SPShaan Puri43:21

      Right

   10. TFTim Ferriss43:21

       ... right? Uh, Williamson. If people are like, "Who is this Chris?"

   11. SPShaan Puri43:25

       [laughs]

   12. TFTim Ferriss43:26

       Uh, and furthermore, I feel life c- the threads of life pulling me in other directions. So doing it half-assed would be the worst thing I could do.

   13. SPShaan Puri43:37

       Hmm.

   14. TFTim Ferriss43:37

       Like, doing it 6 out of 10 would consume resources and not be particularly effective.

   15. SPShaan Puri43:42

       Right.

   16. TFTim Ferriss43:43

       So I'm trying to decide if I wanna take a barbell approach with podcasting on some level, which I've experimented with. And that-

   17. SPShaan Puri43:50

       Explain that. What's the barbell approach in this case?

   18. TFTim Ferriss43:51

       Well, a barbell approach could be applied... I mean, this is a, a term I, I'm borrowing. I don't know if he originated it from Na-

   19. SPShaan Puri43:57

       Taleb [laughs]

   20. TFTim Ferriss43:57

       ... yeah, Nassim Taleb when he talks about investing, right? Like, super risky stuff and then really boring, let's just say fixed income or S&P 500 or something, right? Like, super boring stuff and really risky stuff where you have a capped downside but potentially huge upside. In his set of games, it would probably be some type of like black swan option-

   21. SPShaan Puri44:18

       Right

   22. TFTim Ferriss44:19

       ... position, and then nothing in between. That's it, right? And you could apply that to exercise. You could apply that to many different things. As I'm applying it, I would say within the format of podcasting, you would have no video whatsoever. That would be on one end of the spectrum, and I've done that. I've experimented with walk and talks where I have a headset on and I am recording with someone and we are talking and getting exercise, and it's great. I feel better 'cause I'm not sitting down for three or four hours or whatever the, the amount of time might be, and I love it. I love doing it. So I think that there's a possibility doing that with a lot of enthusiasm and joy and curiosity, I might be able to make up for the lack of video with those elements, and I would probably do higher frequency also-

   23. SPShaan Puri45:14

       Right

   24. TFTim Ferriss45:14

       ... because of that. And then on the opposite end of the spectrum, I might actually... For instance, tomorrow, like, we'll have a nice video setup tomorrow.

   25. SPShaan Puri45:22

       Right.

   26. TFTim Ferriss45:22

       And I have effectively a studio. It's no [laughs] wraparound, immersive-

   27. SPShaan Puri45:27

       Right. [laughs]

   28. TFTim Ferriss45:27

       ... Avatar LED screen, but it is... It's a nice studio setup.

   29. SPShaan Puri45:32

       It's what used to be considered really nice-

   30. TFTim Ferriss45:34

       It, it's what used to-
9. 54:12 – 56:14

   What would it look like if it was easy?

   1. TFTim Ferriss54:12

      Mm-hmm.

   2. SPShaan Puri54:12

      One of my other favorites of yours is, what would this look like if it was easy?

   3. TFTim Ferriss54:16

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SPShaan Puri54:16

      Used it today for this interview. I was like, "Oh, well, great, I gotta do a great interview today. All right. Oh, man, this could, could be difficult. There's so much content. What would this look like if it was easy?" [laughs] And so-

   5. TFTim Ferriss54:26

      What was your answer? What-

   6. SPShaan Puri54:28

      What would it look like if this was easy is me being genuinely enthusiastic and excited to meet you, you feeling that from me, and you walking out of here being like, "Oh, I actually had an interesting conversation. He didn't just ask me 10 questions, but maybe Shaan said two or three interesting things that got me, got me... " Like, because I know, like, what does Tim want out of a, out of an experience? If he learned something, it's probably a good experience.

   7. TFTim Ferriss54:48

      Yeah.

   8. SPShaan Puri54:48

      Or if he heard one or two provocative things that he might think about later-

   9. TFTim Ferriss54:51

      Mm-hmm

   10. SPShaan Puri54:51

       ... that's like a, a useful use of an hour for you.

   11. TFTim Ferriss54:53

       Yeah.

   12. SPShaan Puri54:53

       And so I thought, well- I'm good at that, so let me just like not withhold those.

   13. TFTim Ferriss54:58

       Mm-hmm.

   14. SPShaan Puri54:59

       Which would be common in a podcast where I'm only gonna ask you questions-

   15. TFTim Ferriss55:02

       Mm-hmm

   16. SPShaan Puri55:02

       ... I'll mute myself to make sure that you have the, the time. But in this case, given that you have a platform, you've been so vocal in the past, I thought, oh, maybe I'll let myself do that because I think if I give Tim one or two nuggets that are interesting-

   17. TFTim Ferriss55:14

       Mm-hmm

   18. SPShaan Puri55:14

       ... he'll walk out of here feeling like it was a great experience.

   19. TFTim Ferriss55:16

       Yeah, totally.

   20. SPShaan Puri55:16

       Yeah. [laughs]

   21. TFTim Ferriss55:17

       So what other, what, what other questions do you have on that list that you use a lot that maybe I haven't heard?

   22. SPShaan Puri55:22

       Oh, okay. I'll give you a couple of them. Am I leaning in to my absolute strengths and unfair advantage as much as I could be?

   23. TFTim Ferriss55:30

       Mm-hmm.

   24. SPShaan Puri55:30

       And what this really is is I call it the theoretical max. I had a friend who had an app one time, and his developer, his product manager was saying like, "Oh, the, the response rate on our push notifications is like 10%." And he's like, "Guys, if we just got that to 15%, then like the rest of our funnel looks great." And they're like, "Ah, we, we tried a bunch of AB tests, didn't work." He goes, "Go in there right now and just write your Uber is arriving." And they're, this app was not Uber.

   25. TFTim Ferriss55:55

       [laughs]

   26. SPShaan Puri55:55

       And they sent it out and like 50% of people opened it. He goes, "That's now the theoretical max. Don't ever do that again."

   27. TFTim Ferriss56:00

       [laughs]

   28. SPShaan Puri56:01

       But like, don't give me the BS that like... 'Cause before that they were like, "People don't have them on. People just got... People are too num- There's too many apps, too many notifications."

   29. TFTim Ferriss56:09

       Yeah.

   30. SPShaan Puri56:09

       They had all kinds of stories.
10. 56:14 – 59:47

    What is Tim's unfair advantage?

    1. TFTim Ferriss56:14

       [laughs]

    2. SPShaan Puri56:14

       And so the theoretical max question is basically, we, am I leaning into my superpower or my unfair advantage-

    3. TFTim Ferriss56:22

       Mm-hmm

    4. SPShaan Puri56:22

       ... to its theoretical max. And so like I'd ask you that. Like what is your unfair advantage?

    5. TFTim Ferriss56:30

       I ask that question to myself a lot. I try to edge into it a few different ways. I'll ask friends of mine, "When have you seen me at my best?" That's one. Or, "What do you see me do that is easier for me than for other people?"

    6. SPShaan Puri56:44

       Right.

    7. TFTim Ferriss56:45

       Uh, I think my unfair advantage is, at this point I have a lot just in terms of audience and platform-

    8. SPShaan Puri56:55

       Mm-hmm

    9. TFTim Ferriss56:55

       ... and so on. But if we're talking about just what I can take with me, right? What I can walk out of here with, I would say it is an ability to ask unusual questions, also ask the dumb questions when I'm trying to learn something from someone, from a book, from a video, it doesn't matter. I'm always asking these questions, these various questions. And then I can take whatever I learn, and I suppose I could try to deconstruct this, but I consider myself a fast learner at this point. And if I can get to point X in six months, which is gonna be usually pretty, pretty good, sometimes super impressive, sometimes not, depends on the thing, but overall on average I'm gonna learn things very quickly.

    10. SPShaan Puri58:00

        Right.

    11. TFTim Ferriss58:01

        'Cause I have a method at this point. I can, if it takes me six months to get to point X, I can get almost anyone to that same point in three months or less.

    12. SPShaan Puri58:08

        Mm-hmm.

    13. TFTim Ferriss58:09

        Because I realize I, I, I also had so many false starts and I tried so many things that didn't quite work. I tried a lot of things that were common that turns out should be removed from the learning process entirely. I'd say those, those are what come to mind.

    14. SPShaan Puri58:25

        Yeah. My first reaction, if I was Tim Ferriss what would I say? I think my first reaction would be I can get... First it was I can get any guest on my podcast really that I want. I mean, every guest is within reach.

    15. TFTim Ferriss58:38

        Mm-hmm.

    16. SPShaan Puri58:38

        And I said, well, that doesn't really need to be about the podcast necessarily.

    17. TFTim Ferriss58:41

        Yeah.

    18. SPShaan Puri58:42

        Anybody I wanna talk to-

    19. TFTim Ferriss58:44

        Mm

    20. SPShaan Puri58:44

        ... is within reach.

    21. TFTim Ferriss58:45

        Yeah.

    22. SPShaan Puri58:45

        That's interesting.

    23. TFTim Ferriss58:46

        Yeah.

    24. SPShaan Puri58:46

        That's not true for most people. And even if you are booking tons of guests or you're meeting cool people, like you probably aren't at the theoretical max. You're not at the your Uber is arriving level of like leaning into that superpower.

    25. TFTim Ferriss58:58

        The [laughs] your, your-

    26. SPShaan Puri58:59

        For good reason

    27. TFTim Ferriss58:59

        ... your mom is dead type message.

    28. SPShaan Puri59:01

        Yeah. [laughs]

    29. TFTim Ferriss59:02

        Theoretical max.

    30. SPShaan Puri59:02

        Exactly.
11. 59:47 – 1:02:23

    What silly story are we telling ourselves?

    1. SPShaan Puri59:47

       There's another question that I find really v- really valuable, and that is what is, [laughs] what is the silly story I'm telling myself?

    2. TFTim Ferriss59:55

       Hmm.

    3. SPShaan Puri59:56

       And it immediately puts you on the defensive 'cause you're like, "Why would I tell myself a silly story?"

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:00:01

       Mm.

    5. SPShaan Puri1:00:02

       But we all are constantly telling-

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:00:03

       Yeah

    7. SPShaan Puri1:00:03

       ... ourselves silly stories. Why we can't do this, why that's gonna be hard, why, why that's not gonna work for me, why that will take forever, why this person is not responding to my thing, it's because of A, B, C, D. No, actually it's probably not, right?

    8. TFTim Ferriss1:00:15

       Mm-hmm.

    9. SPShaan Puri1:00:15

       And so identifying the silly stories, it's like, I'm a Harry Potter guy, I don't know if you read Harry Potter, but like there's the-

    10. TFTim Ferriss1:00:21

        I like Harry Potter

    11. SPShaan Puri1:00:21

        ... the Boggart, right? The, the thing that will sh- present itself as the thing you fear.

    12. TFTim Ferriss1:00:24

        Mm-hmm.

    13. SPShaan Puri1:00:25

        And the way to get rid of it is the, the spell is Riddikulus. You make it, you basically, if you're scared of spiders, you put the spider on skates and then it can't walk and then it's actually becomes funny instead of scary.

    14. TFTim Ferriss1:00:34

        Mm.

    15. SPShaan Puri1:00:34

        The same thing can be done with what are the silly stories in my life? As soon as you start to point them out, it's typically things that you've made real, but when you, when you sit down and you interrogate that, that story, turns out it was just as fictional as like a, a easily replaceable story that might be, might be better for you. And so-

    16. TFTim Ferriss1:00:51

        Yeah, that's a good one

    17. SPShaan Puri1:00:51

        ... that's one that I ask, uh, quite often because it's the one that I hate. [laughs]

    18. TFTim Ferriss1:00:56

        Ah.

    19. SPShaan Puri1:00:56

        It's the question that I hate that like-

    20. TFTim Ferriss1:00:58

        Yeah, that's a good one

    21. SPShaan Puri1:00:58

        ... that's the one I need. [laughs]

    22. TFTim Ferriss1:01:00

        Yeah. Yeah, I suppose if- If I could choose one question, the only question I could ask would probably be some version of that. Yeah.

    23. SPShaan Puri1:01:09

        Would, do you have it in mind what it would be or no?

    24. TFTim Ferriss1:01:11

        [lip smacks] Uh, no. I mean, we're just, we're constantly... I mean, the, my favorite answer to the question that I ask most guests at some point, "What would you put on a billboard?" Favorite answer I've ever had was from a hospice care physician named BJ Miller, who's helped thousands of people to die [laughs] and-

    25. SPShaan Puri1:01:29

        Help them to die. [laughs] Help them sort of transition.

    26. TFTim Ferriss1:01:31

        Well, he didn't... Yeah, he didn't euthanize them, but he's midwifing them through, mm, the transition to death if they have terminal cancer or something like that. And his answer, [laughs] he actually confessed to me he got it from a bumper sticker somewhere. But-

    27. SPShaan Puri1:01:50

        [laughs]

    28. TFTim Ferriss1:01:51

        ... the, the, his answer was, "Don't believe everything you think." That's it. Don't believe everything that you think. And, you know, having some method for cross-examining those beliefs, right, these thoughts we take to be true is, is really, really critical. So that's a good one.

    29. SPShaan Puri1:02:12

        Yeah.

    30. TFTim Ferriss1:02:12

        I like that.
12. 1:02:23 – 1:09:59

    Stories about Naval

    1. SPShaan Puri1:02:23

       Do you have any stories about Naval, anything that you noticed early on or a moment you observed kind of like the wisdom or the, the, the sort of the insightfulness that, that he has?

    2. TFTim Ferriss1:02:31

       [laughs] Naval's one of my favorite people. He's, he's, he's very, very smart and hilarious and does not suffer fools gladly-

    3. SPShaan Puri1:02:44

       [laughs]

    4. TFTim Ferriss1:02:44

       ... at all, which I like. You don't have to guess what Naval's thinking, which I, I deeply appreciate. And, uh, the first thing that came to mind is probably not the kind of example that you would expect, but it's actually the first time I met Naval. It's the first time I met Naval. [laughs] I went into a coffee shop in the Mission in San Francisco, and I ordered a coffee, and I'm waiting at the counter, and there's this very attractive, uh, girl standing next to me. And, uh, she's very friendly and just smiles, and I start talking to her, and I'm kind of chatting her up, you know, hitting on her, hoping to ask her-

    5. SPShaan Puri1:03:22

       [laughs]

    6. TFTim Ferriss1:03:22

       ... for her number and take her out and who knows? You know, maybe dinner, maybe a drink. Who, who knows? And [laughs] then I see Naval walk up with this huge grin on his face, and he's like, "I see you met my girlfriend." [laughs] And I was like, "Oh, Tim." And he's like, "Naval." And he just had this huge grin on his face, was just like-

    7. SPShaan Puri1:03:43

       Wow, what a good way to, to address it

    8. TFTim Ferriss1:03:45

       ... just, just like totally calm.

    9. SPShaan Puri1:03:47

       [laughs]

    10. TFTim Ferriss1:03:47

        And then we, we, then we started talking and, like, and we hit it off. And that was probably, God knows when that was. I don't know, 2008 or something.

    11. SPShaan Puri1:03:56

        Yeah, you're like, "Oh, man crush actually. Move out of the way." [laughs]

    12. TFTim Ferriss1:03:58

        Yeah. [laughs] Face, face palm. Yeah. And, and, uh, and that was it. I, I, I just, I admire Naval for his ability to speak truth and ask uncomfortable questions. And he doesn't go out of his way to be rude, but he's, he's, he's, I think, less inclined... He is less inclined to the type of people-pleasing that I'd say many people are predisposed to, myself included. Like, there are definitely times when I'm maybe too polite or tell white lies to make people feel good or whatever. Like, normal human-

    13. SPShaan Puri1:04:39

        Right

    14. TFTim Ferriss1:04:39

        ... social lubrication, right? Nothing major, but it's like [laughs] if, you know, if my girlfriend's put on a few pounds and she's like, "Do I look fat?" I'm like, "No."

    15. SPShaan Puri1:04:46

        Right. [laughs]

    16. TFTim Ferriss1:04:46

        You know? Like, I'm not gonna say, "Yeah, you look really fat."

    17. SPShaan Puri1:04:48

        [laughs]

    18. TFTim Ferriss1:04:49

        Um, not to say that Naval would say that. Uh, but he's, he's direct in a way that cuts through the noise and is very refreshing to me.

    19. SPShaan Puri1:05:00

        Have you been able to, uh, pick up or, uh, learn anything from him in, in terms of whether it's, you know, tactical stuff on the investing side or-

    20. TFTim Ferriss1:05:08

        Tons of stuff on the investing side. I mean, uh, I think the site was, way back in the day, uh, Venture Hacks-

    21. SPShaan Puri1:05:14

        Oh, yeah

    22. TFTim Ferriss1:05:14

        ... that he and Nivi co-authored. And I mean, that was basically the kind of Wikipedia bible of angel investing-

    23. SPShaan Puri1:05:22

        Right

    24. TFTim Ferriss1:05:22

        ... and advising for a, for, and inside game on venture capital. I mean, Naval is Jedi level when it comes to early-stage investing. Very technical. Uh, he just ends up in every deal you would ever want to be in.

    25. SPShaan Puri1:05:38

        [laughs]

    26. TFTim Ferriss1:05:38

        It's, it's like, you know, the [laughs] sort of, you know, Pinky and the Brain meets, like, Forrest Gump meets, you know, Siddhartha. [laughs]

    27. SPShaan Puri1:05:48

        [laughs]

    28. TFTim Ferriss1:05:48

        You're just like, "How is he in every cap table?"

    29. SPShaan Puri1:05:51

        Right.

    30. TFTim Ferriss1:05:51

        Uh, he's, he's incredibly skilled as an angel investor. Uh, yeah, we don't even have enough time. It would be hours and hours and hours-

Episode duration: 1:09:59