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EVERY SPOKEN WORD
60 min read · 12,010 words- 0:00 – 1:29
Spoiler warning and why they’re discussing the documentary
- SPShaan Puri
All right, so this is going to be a movie discussion about the new Nathan Fielder, Elizabeth Holmes documentary called You Can See Everything. This is full of spoilers, so if you haven't seen the movie and you don't want spoilers, don't watch this. [upbeat music] This is for people who have seen it and wanna react with other people to the thing. Except for Sam hasn't seen it. [laughs] And I, I gave him an out, I said, "You don't have to get spoiled," but you wanna get spoiled.
- SPSam Parr
I wanna be spoiled. I'm a grown man. I cannot stand when people say, "I don't..." It's like, dude, just tell me everything that happens, please.
- SPShaan Puri
[laughs] Well, Nathan Fielder himself, I was reading an interview and he said he read some study. They had two groups of people, one that were spoiled and one that was unspoiled, then they watched the movie, and the enjoyment of the movie was higher amongst the spoiled group than the unspoiled group. So he's like, maybe there's something to it where people actually like it more when they kinda know what's coming.
- SPSam Parr
So what's the premise here? I, all I know is that Nathan Fielder is, like, a Sacha Baron Cohen-like character, where he's silly and satirical. He had a show where he would prank people. But this seems serious.
- SPShaan Puri
Well, we should lay the groundwork. So Sam hasn't seen the movie. Me and Diego went and saw it last night, but we didn't talk to each other afterwards. We got out at midnight, went home. And then Ben, I think you're more of a Nathan Fielder fan. Like, you've watched... Have you, Ben, have you watched, like, Nathan For You and The Rehearsal, like, fully or partially or what?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, partially, but I would definitely, I'm a fan of his craft.
- 1:29 – 3:55
What the film is and how it became a surprise hit
- SPShaan Puri
All right. So Sam, your question is what's the premise of the movie? So the premise of the movie is 34 days before Elizabeth Holmes was going to go into prison, so she, post, it's, it's post all the scandal, after she was already convicted, now 34 days away from going into jail, and she's got two little kids and she's got her not husband, technically, I think fiance. They're not married because she owes hundreds of millions of dollars [laughs] in restitution, so they didn't wanna get married and combine their finances, but they have two kids. And so they, he calls her his wife even though it's fiance. All right, so she's 34 days away from going in, and they, they contact A24 about doing a movie together, documenting her beforehand. Nothing h- comes of it. Nathan Fielder finds out about this, jumps on the opportunity, moves in with her in her house, tiny, tiny house on the beach in Del Mar, and lives with her for 34 days. And then for the next three years continues to, like, pursue the story in complete secrecy until it debuted at a v- random fil- at the Telluride Film Festival a few w- months ago, and surprise to everybody, it was unbelievable. The reviews coming out of it were unbelievable. Now the movie is the top, like, the top-rated movie, I think, on-
- SPSpeaker
Letterboxd
- SPShaan Puri
... Letterboxd, Rotten Tomatoes, and, like, MovieCritic.com or whatever, like some other s- services. Has the highest rating across all three of any movie. It's the first documentary that's favored to win Best Picture, and I think it had, like, a blowout, like, block, you know, um, box office opening weekend, basically. Like-
- SPSam Parr
I saw someone say that Nathan, they're like, "I don't know if this is possible for a documentary, but Nathan deserves Best Actor."
- SPShaan Puri
[laughs] Okay. That's what-
- SPSam Parr
Like, what-
- SPShaan Puri
That's what Nathan would do. You say something to him and he just goes, "Okay. I don't, I don't-"
- SPSam Parr
And I also saw, uh, I think it was, uh, what's the director, Nolan? Uh, what's his f- um-
- SPShaan Puri
Oppenheimer
- SPSam Parr
... uh, what, but what's his, what's his full name? Um-
- SPShaan Puri
Lance.
- SPSpeaker
Lance.
- SPSam Parr
And he, I think, I think it was him, and this was, um, on stage at a conference years ago. And he was talking about how Nathan Fielder is amazing, and that his technique for telling a story is amazing, the way that he uses angles. Like, he was complimenting him as a director when everyone thought of him as a gag guy. And then someone reposted this and they're like, "He was not joking. He was being serious." And if you see the new movie, you see what, exactly what he's talking about. Because it appears as though... Was there, like, some ways that the camera was working that helped tell the story?
- 3:55 – 4:34
Fielder’s directing style: extreme closeness and emotional ambiguity
- SPShaan Puri
Yeah. I mean, most of the movie is shot, like, Sam, move your face all the way up to the camera. [laughs] Most of the movie is that close. Yes, is that close, which kinda goes into the idea of you can see everything. I mean, h- and also she has this intense eye contact. [laughs] Like, she doesn't blink. And you know, they say, like, you know, the eyes are the window to the soul. And so here you are, you're that close with her, you see her eyes that wide open, and yet you walk away having, uh, for me at least, no idea how to feel about her. It's like I saw everything and I know less than I knew at the beginning. I don't, I don't know what to think.
- SPSam Parr
And so tell me, I, I wa- I have questions about the voice, I have questions about if you think she did it, but where do you wanna start?
- 4:34 – 6:30
A 30-second plot outline: from observer to participant
- SPShaan Puri
30-second summary of the movie. So he moves in when they're con- j- you know, when she's getting ready to go to jail. At first, he's literally, like, kind of almost like a director. He's wearing his headphones. He's behind the corner. He's, like, trying to stay out of the shot. So at first he's just, like, fly on the wall, trying to observe them, and then by the middle and end, he's now, like, one of the main characters in the thing, 'cause it's like he's a part, he becomes sucked into it. So the, the way the movie works is it shows her before she goes to jail, and you, he's trying to figure out, like, is she a good person or a huge manipulator? Like, is she misunderstood or is she a master manipulator? That's a good way of putting it. Then it shows... Okay, so that, that's, like, the first kind of, like, half of the movie. It's, like, her b- th- them together beforehand and he's trying to figure out who she is, and he's trying to figure out did she... It's not really did she do it, but he's trying to understand, like, her, her POV. Like, did you, do you think you did something wrong? Like, wh- why do you think you're going to jail? And she's like, "I don't know." [laughs]
- SPSam Parr
What did she go to jail for, and what are the a- the accusations are that she lied. What did she lie about? I think the best way to become successful is to see how other people did it, whether you're gonna copy them or just use it as inspiration, because then now you know what's possible. So starting at the age of 24, I did this relentlessly, and I was very methodical about it. And I created a spreadsheet where I tracked roughly 50 people who were uber successful, and I looked at the year that they were born, the year that they started their apprenticeship, and then the year that they started the first thing that made them successful, finally the year that they broke through. And I aggregated all this data, along with the stories of what they did to be an apprentice and what they did to finally break through, and I put it together in a database. And HubSpot went and found this thing that I frankly even forgot about, but it did change my life, and they resurfaced it, they made it even better, and they put it into a thing that you can download for free right now. So if you click the link in the description or click the QR code right here, you can see this database that I made when I was 24, and it changed my life. And so if you're looking to become successful or you're already successful and just want some more inspiration, check it out
- 6:30 – 10:12
Theranos basics and Holmes’ central denial
- SPShaan Puri
So she's going to jail for defrauding investors, not for-
- SPSam Parr
Because she raised billions of dollars.
- SPShaan Puri
Uh, not billions. I don't know. She raised like $500 million.
- SPSam Parr
Yeah. Okay. She raised $500 million on this premise that she can create a blood test that uses barely any blood, and it's revolutionary, and you can go to CVS and get it for $5, and it tells you on the spot or, or-
- SPShaan Puri
Yeah
- SPSam Parr
... quickly-
- SPShaan Puri
A prick of blood, so a drop of blood, basically, would go into her m- her magic machine called the Edison. And she was this great inventor of this machine that would revolutionize the way that medicine's done 'cause you could run this huge battery of tests, like hundreds of tests or whatever, on just a tiny bit of blood instead of going and getting huge blood draws. And if people could do that with just a tiny bit of blood, they would get tests more often, we would find, you know, problems before they, you know, got too far, and we would be able to test for way more things. And, like, somehow, that was supposed to be really good. Now, if you've watched the TV show and other things like that, and you've read the book, Bad Blood, you know, basically what happened was the Edin- Edison machine pretty much didn't work. I think it could only do, like, 12 or 13 tests out of the, like, 100 it claimed, and that they would take the blood, and they would try to go ... It would be like, "Oh, the bl- the machine's not working, so today you gotta go get more blood drawn." And then they would go run it to a b- a real machine that, like, was m- you know, an older machine, get the test, and pass it off as their own. And she basically was telling investors that this worked. She was telling the public that this worked. She was telling partners like CVS or Walgreens that this worked, but it didn't really y- work. Yeah.
- SPSam Parr
And she denies this, but what's the denial? Is the denial the machine could have worked if you'd given me more t- more time? Is it-
- SPShaan Puri
So the, there's a key scene in the thing where it's like he's, like, reading her a quote. He's like, "You said, 'The fact is that we invented a machine that can do any test on blood, and that's amazing.'" And then she's like, "Yeah." And he's like, "But that wasn't a fact. The machine couldn't do that." She's like, "It could."
- SPSam Parr
Okay.
- SPShaan Puri
And he's like, "Well, like, in the future it could." And she's like, "The way the machine works is you put some blood in a cartridge. It goes in the machine. It goes to the cloud. The cloud will ask what test you want, and it could r- any test that you want, now the machine would be able to run that test."
- SPSam Parr
Hmm.
- SPShaan Puri
And then he's like, "But it couldn't do all the tests." She's like, "Well, we had to do the chemistry for each of those individual tests." He's like, "Ah, so, like, you were kinda saying it's capable of running all these tests, but it couldn't do it now." And she kind of avoids the quest- She's like, "I, I believe w- what I sa- It's, that's what I'm, that's what I'm saying."
- SPSam Parr
And she doesn't admit any wrongdoing.
- SPShaan Puri
And he's like, "But you see how that's confusing, right? Like, when you say it can, people think that it can do it right now, and you're saying that it can." She's like, "It can."
- SPSam Parr
[laughs]
- SPShaan Puri
And she looks at him like kinda crazy. And then s- you know. And they're, and also, they're restarting Theranos while she's going to jail. They're, like, pitching investors and recruiting a team to, like, do it better now that they have AI. They're, like, trying to do it again. And she's like ... So okay, that's one whole part of it. Second part of it is-
- SPSam Parr
But for the record, she has never admitted to doing anything wrong.
- SPShaan Puri
She is confused as to why she's going to jail.
- SPSam Parr
Okay.
- SPShaan Puri
She's like-
- SPSam Parr
Understood
- SPShaan Puri
... "I don't know."
- SPSam Parr
[laughs] Okay.
- SPShaan Puri
And he, and he, he's like, "Did you ever, have you, like, you know, you lie. Uh, did you lie?" She's like, "I've never lied." And he's like, "You've never lied? You've never been to a party and said or, like, been like, 'Ah, not feeling good. Can't come'"? Er, at first she's l- first, first he's like, "You've never lied?" She's like, "I don't believe I have. I've always tried to tell the truth. Maybe when I was a kid?" And he's like, "So since the age of 18, you've never lied?" She's like, "I thought you meant, like, the types of things I'm accused of." And then it, like, cuts, right? So, like, one weird thing is it's, he's not actually trying
- 10:12 – 12:17
Why the film leaves viewers confused—and what that confusion reveals
- SPShaan Puri
to get to the bottom of the thing. It's not like he, he's not trying to litigate the case. He's trying to figure out who is this person, and was she, is she what we think she is? Is she misunderstood? And then the way the movie plays out, the best way I could describe it is I would say you leave more confused as to what the truth is, I think. Is that fair? Ben, would you agree with that, or no?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. I think, I think you leave more confused, but yeah.
- SPShaan Puri
But you also leave understanding what it's like to be deceived by her because you're like, "I don't know what to believe. She did it to me, too. She did it to him. She did it to him." And that the, the crazy thing is, like, it's like the u- unstoppable force meets the immovable object. Here you have the guy who himself creates these false realities for a living. That's w- all he did. The rehearsal was literally creating false realities. And but, but, like, committing to the bit. And then you see her even b- while she's, like, going to jail, and it's so real. Shit is so real now. You're leaving your children. You're gonna be in jail for years. And she's still in a way committed to the bit and creat- She has this reality that's clearly false, but it's, the question is does she not realize it's false, or is she that good that she makes you think she doesn't believe it's false? You know what I mean?
- SPSam Parr
And, and, um, the, you're confused because you went in thinking, "She's nuts. She's a liar. She's wrong." And you left thinking-
- SPShaan Puri
She's nuts. She lied. But maybe she didn't mean it.
- SPSam Parr
But what are you confused about then?
- SPShaan Puri
Well, all right. There's two, two ways to look at this. One is did she just do the Silicon Valley kinda fake it till you make it thing except for she got kinda caught before she could make it? And it, it was healthcare, so it was higher risk. So she kinda did the entrepreneurial thing like Elon does when he says, "Hey, this is gonna be f- self-driving. We will be self-driving at, coast to coast by next year." But we don't look at him as this fraudster. It's just sort of this optimistic entrepreneur who's trying to build the future and pitching it. Okay, that's, like, the very, very fable- favorable version. Then you have this other version which is like, no, she willingly, knowingly
- 12:17 – 16:15
Billy emerges as a central character: control, leverage, and the egg scene
- SPShaan Puri
defrauded investors and patients, and that was really, you know, that's a messed up thing to do, and she deserves to go to jail. But, like, was she the mastermind or not? And that's what the, the second important part of the movie is a lot of it is about Billy, her whatever he is, her husband or whatever. Ben or D- Diego, describe, you know, who is this Billy guy and what's your, what'd you know about him coming in versus now?
- SPSpeaker
I knew absolutely nothing. I, I had heard the name Billy. Had no idea, like, his background, who he was. Um, still don't really understand who he is. Husband, boyfriend. I didn't even know if he was the father of the kids-
- SPShaan Puri
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... but you're telling me he is.
- SPShaan Puri
Yeah, he is. Yeah
- SPSpeaker
It's a very weird relationship. Didn't know much about him. Um, but I think he's an asshole. Like, that, that was sort of, like, my biggest takeaway from the-
- SPSam Parr
He's an asshole to Holmes or to everyone else?
- SPSpeaker
In general, I think-
- SPSam Parr
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... he's just an asshole. Um, and I was sort of telling Shaan this, of like I've learned this, like, there's a certain archetype where he has, like, this dark and curly hair.
- SPSam Parr
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
And, uh, he's probably, like, the third or fourth person that looks like this, and, uh, he's turned out being an asshole. But there's, like, this one scene in the movie where Elizabeth is, like, scrambling eggs, and she's just, like, not really ... She's, like, kinda half-assing it. They're in mid-conversation. Billy stops the entire conversation, goes up to her, takes the bowl out of her hand, and just starts scrambling it a lot faster. Like, "You aren't doing this right" type of thing.
- SPShaan Puri
So they're, they're having a conversation. They, it just shows Billy keeps looking out of the corner of his eye to how she's whisking the eggs. But they're talking about something very important, about what happened at Theranos. He keeps looking, and then he can't resist. He just grabs it. He starts doing it, and then Nathan's like, he stops the conversa- He's like, doesn't keep going on the serious topic. He's like, "What was, what was wrong with the way she was doing it?" And he's like, "Oh, nothing was wrong. I just, you know, I wanted to help her." And then Nathan just sits there in the silence. And then Elizabeth's like, "He thinks I don't do ... He thinks I wasn't doing a good job of it." And he's like, "What? What do you mean?"
- SPSam Parr
So who's that-
- SPShaan Puri
And so-
- SPSam Parr
Who's the alpha in the relationship?
- SPShaan Puri
Well, that's kinda the way this comes. So, so one of the arguments that she made in her defense and that the, kind of the movie tries to make is she's this innocent idealist, and she was taken advantage of at Theranos by this Sunny Balwani, the guy she was romantically dating, this, like, older Indian dude who she was dating for, like, a decade. And there's one, one, kind of one out for her is if he was the guy who was pulling the strings. Okay. Now, they don't talk about that, but they draw this huge parallel by showing her relationship with Billy now, where he's clearly the guy pulling the strings. Meaning, it's his idea to do the, the documentary. He's kinda the one interfacing with them. There's a big part where he goes behind th- her back in a way. Like, he, they g- they're, they, they reenact this scene before they started filming, where they go to their house to meet, and they're talking about what this movie would be, how it'd work. And she reads this, like, excerpt from her book that's, like, flowery poetry that she's writing about, like, her experience. And they're like, "Cool. It's cool writing," you know. Like, "Nice." And then she's like, the baby starts crying. She has to go upstairs. And then h- Billy, now that she's gone, he's like, "All right. I wanna talk about one thing, which is we want a piece of the action. We want, we want a piece of the upside here." And then H14 is like, "That's not typical in a documentary. It's not a good idea, um, because it sort of, like, blurs the ethical line of, like, are you just gonna be doing this for profit, or do you really want your story told? In fact, isn't that one of the main things you're trying to argue, is that, no, she didn't defraud these people to, to self-enrich. She doesn't care about money. And yet you're gonna ask for money out of this? And then people will question, did you do this for money? Just like that, right? You see why that's problematic?" And he's like, "Harry and Meghan got $100 million for their documentary, so I'm just saying, we want our fair share." And so they p- And then they're like, "Well, we didn't have much leverage, so we agreed to it." And so the whole thing i- And then she doesn't know that he did that, or she claims to not know. We think, but we don't know. How could she not know? They're so close. They have this, like, crazy, like, trauma bond love thing.
- 16:15 – 18:35
What the film does not cover—and why the hosts think that matters
- SPSam Parr
Did she address the voice?
- SPShaan Puri
They didn't talk ... So they didn't talk about the voice. They didn't talk about a lot of things. This is kinda the criticism I would have with the movie, which is like, you know, for example, under oath, she testified, she admitted that she added, like, the F- like the Fi- uh, the Pfizer logo to some documents when she presented to Walgreens that made it look like they had signed off on her tests, but they hadn't. And that was completely misleading, and that was illegal. And she admitted that, which kinda, like, breaks the whole premise of she doesn't really know, she doesn't lie. Like, she admitted to that under oath. And he doesn't bring that type of stuff up.
- SPSam Parr
Dude, and I think, I think that, like, two things aren't being mentioned. And tell me if they were mentioned. I didn't follow, I didn't read the book, but, uh, I think that one of her employees killed himself because he had to testify or something like that. And he thought he was totally innocent, and the pressure was, like, getting to him. He's like, "I can't believe I got dragged in this." I think he k- I think a, a guy committed suicide. And then I also think that there was both ... Now, this is p- I'm not sure about this, but tell me if it's right, that some cancer patients were told they didn't have cancer and vice versa. Is that right?
- SPShaan Puri
I don't know those two things, so I, I haven't looked into that much to know. But also, you did learn what's she like.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SPShaan Puri
What's he like? What's she like? Which is the thing you didn't know, right? Like, the case has already been litigated with all the evidence that existed. If you wanted to see it, you could go see that. What you didn't know is, what is she really like? And I would say you kinda got the Elizabeth Holmes experience, where you're, like, in her weird reality distortion field, and you walk away not, not fully knowing what's, what to believe and what not to believe. Ben, you didn't give me a co-
- SPSam Parr
What did you-
- SPShaan Puri
What, what did you think about the movie, by the way?
- SPSpeaker
I mean, I think seeing what she's like is the question I wanna know about anyone famous or in the know that you'd never get. Like, I don't know. I, I find the what is the story of the company to be not that interesting. More the lens of what is she like is the most interesting thing, 'cause you never get that unless you know someone well.
- SPShaan Puri
So how would you describe it, what's she like, now that you've watched it, three hours of watching her?
- SPSpeaker
I think she's incredibly persuasive. I think she's very engaging. It's very easy to believe her. You know, it's, they paint Billy in a specific way, but she doesn't see him in that way. So I would say, I mean, overall, I just thought the movie was unbelievably good, like, probably the best m- maybe the best movie I've ever seen in terms of entertainment.
- SPShaan Puri
Wow.
- SPSpeaker
It was so good.
- 18:35 – 21:44
Power rules and persuasion: Sam’s Roy Cohn comparison
- SPSam Parr
Let me ask you guys this. So, d- Shaan, do you know who Roy Cohn is?
- SPShaan Puri
No.
- SPSam Parr
Okay. So Roy Cohn was a very popular lawyer in New York City in the '70s and '80s, and a lot of people regarded him as, like, a fairly evil guy because he would, um, he sued the government tons of times, and he, but he was known as a pit bull. He was vicious. And at one point he met this young developer who he thought was very promising, and he was like, "I'm gonna take you under my wing and show you how to get things done, um, in this city." And that young guy was Donald Trump. And according to a couple books that I've read about him, a lot of people say Donald Trump sort of changed after hanging out with Roy Cohn because he learned the rules of power. And one of his, uh, Roy Cohn's biographer made a list of six rules that they noticed, um, Roy went through. And I don't know if Roy actually wrote these down, but they were, um, some of the rules. And the first rule was never apologize or admit wrongdoing, ever. Always counterattack, and always with greater force than you received. Use the legal system as a weapon, not as, uh, not as a thing for justice. Manipulate the media ruthlessly. Use fear both as a shield and a sword. And the last one was build a fortress of loyalty around yourself. And the biography was like, "These are, like, six rules that we have noticed repeatedly Roy Cohn, um, uh, used." And he's kind of an interesting guy to study because he came from nothing and became very powerful, and Trump worked with him. Um, and so my question to you is, do you, did you notice anything about, like, the laws of human nature where you're like, "This is interesting." Uh, like, not that you're gonna replicate it, but, like, was this inter- this is interesting. She is using this rule to manipulate-
- SPShaan Puri
Right
- SPSam Parr
... and take control.
- SPShaan Puri
Uh, the, see, when you, when you say that, that makes perfect sense and that lines up with, you know, Trump and, and whatnot. And actually even, Ben, when you were saying she's very persuasive, the crazy thing about the movie is that I expected her to be this kind of charismatic, maybe, like, kind of egomaniac, maybe very charming, maybe very compelling, maybe very persuasive, but you gotta have your, your guard up because she's so, she's gonna kind of hit you with such, you know, oh, I could see why people fell for her. She's completely disarming is her style. So she doesn't try to convince you of anything. She doesn't, like, turn it on. She's not the center of attention. She's the opposite. It's like the, the whole thing is, like, she's just like, "I don't know. I don't know what to tell you. I don't know." But then you're like, wait, is this some nine-dimensional chess where she's so disarming that I am disarmed, and that, like... Then the subtle thing works because she was so seemingly uninterested in charming you or presenting anything.
- SPSam Parr
No-
- SPShaan Puri
Like, she doesn't wear makeup.
- SPSam Parr
Oh, there's-
- SPShaan Puri
The movie's called You Can See Everything. Like, you know what I mean?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, there's, there's one moment when they, like, kind of somewhere an hour in where they show her watching The Dropout, which is this, like, fictional show-
- SPShaan Puri
The Hulu series
- SPSpeaker
... made about her that is on Hulu, and they show kind of two or three ridiculous scenes, and you're just obviously agreeing that's not how she is, and I think that's a good example of, like, where you're at mentally in the movie. You're like, "Oh, she would never do that. Uh, that's so far off. That sounded like, oh, I, I, I couldn't see her doing that."
- 21:44 – 25:51
The film’s meta turn: bringing in the actress who played Holmes
- SPShaan Puri
So, so the, kind of the genius of the movie is, um, you know, her argument is, "I've been portrayed as this monster. That's not me." And then other people say, "No, you are a monster." And then, you know, one other argument is that maybe, so, so, you know, they're kind of saying the media's a bit of a monster. They've, they... Because they made me look like a monster, which is not true. The media tells these untruths. And then another defense is like, well, maybe she wasn't the monster. Maybe Sunny was the monster or Billy's the monster. And then another is, no, she's the ultimate monster because of all that. And the way the movie works is he kind of shows that it's all true. Everybody's guilty. So it's like Billy, definitely manipulative, comes across like a complete asshole. You know, he's, he's the biggest kind of loser in, I would say, in the film. At the same time, one of the things he does halfway through, so she goes to jail, so it's like how are you gonna do this documentary? Because she's in jail now. You can't even see her on camera, can't hear her audio, nothing. Well, one of the things that Nathan Fielder's famous for is recreating sets, reenactments, hyperrealistic reenactments. For example, like, one of his shows, this guy's gonna have a difficult conversation, like breaking up with his girlfriend, so he recreates, he builds to s- to the inch the same bar that that guy's gonna go to, hires paid actors who have studied the pa- patrons of that bar just so he can go in and feel what it's gonna be like to have that awkward conversation. It's like this, like, over the top. He did this thing where he's like he studied pilots and how if you re- go listen to the black box footage, which he spent years doing, he s- learned that the, the number one, like, root cause of crash, plane crashes is that there's this weird social dynamic between the captain and the co-pilot, and that the co-pilot might notice something is wrong, that the c- captain's doing something wrong, but they're afraid to mention it. They mention it too late. And when they mention it, the captain slaps them down, and then they don't say anything, literally flying to their death. And he's like, "That's so crazy, so I wanna understand the social dynamic." But he can't, you know, go where the pilots go in an airport, so he recreates the Denver Airport to the T, like, with the TSA, and he walks through and he's observing how the pilots sit in the lounge beforehand, and he's watching them. It's like this absurd methodology he has. Okay. So in this movie, he goes and he h- he brings, ha- halfway through the movie when she goes to jail, he brings the actress who played her in the movie. Suddenly she's in this, in this, in this movie, uh, who played her in the Hulu series.
- SPSam Parr
Amanda, uh, S- whatever.
- SPShaan Puri
Seifert or something, something like that. I don't know what her na- last name is. So he brings her in and he shows her the footage that we've been seeing in the first half of the movie. She watches it and has the same reaction we just had, so now it's like Inception, and then basically you see that in a way she's kind of guilty too. She's extremely judgment- quick to judge her. And then she sees Elizabeth's reaction to watching the series for the first time and how she's portrayed and how painful that was to watch, and then she feels really guilty. But she's like-
- SPSam Parr
Yeah
- SPShaan Puri
... "But, like, everybody knows this is TV. Like, it's fiction." It's like, well, that's a lie, right? Fiction is a lie. So it's like you're mad at her for being a lie- but you, you know, you're obviously telling fiction, and it's, has a pretty big impact on the way the world sees her and her. And then she gets really defensive about it. But he's not attract- he's not attacking her either. He just, he lets it all unfold as the movie goes on. And so you see that like, yeah, I guess they're kinda guilty, too, for the way they did it. The New York Times reporting where it was like she says this thing where she says like, "That's not me. That's a character I created." And she's like, "I didn't say that." And The New York Time's like, "Well, we don't have record that you said it, but we stand by our journalist."
- SPSam Parr
Yeah.
- SPShaan Puri
It's like, what? Well, that was pretty important that, you know, that, that thing. So the whole thing is kinda... And then, and the, kinda the, the cherry on top is that, like, Nathan himse- the, by the end of the movie, the actress calls into question, "Well, Nathan, like, are you also like kind of have you fallen under her spell? Like, are you not telling me everything because maybe at some level you are trying to protect her, too?"
- SPSam Parr
I would say-
- SPShaan Puri
And he's like, "Why would you say that I'm doing that?"
- SPSam Parr
Ah.
- SPShaan Puri
And then there's like this like key scene in the whole thing that won't make sense to unpack, but it's the scene of them in the ocean together that like was a callback to the beginning of the movie that's like, ah, kinda damning. And then you're like-
- SPSam Parr
What?
- SPShaan Puri
... God damn it. I walked out of this thing. We all got, we all got duped by everybody.
- 25:51 – 27:25
Holmes’ family, the pre-prison goodbye, and the emotional gut punch
- SPSam Parr
What were her parents like? What was she like as a kid?
- SPShaan Puri
Well, they show them.
- SPSpeaker
Her, her parents showed up. Her mom didn't say too much. [laughs] There, there was a hilarious part where it's the morning where she's gonna go to jail, and it's her, Billy's there, the kids are there, her parents are there, and Nathan comes in and he gives her a gift, like, before she goes to jail, and a kind of a gag gift. And what, he ends up gifting her, like, something to, like, change her hair color-
- SPShaan Puri
He's like-
- SPSpeaker
... and sunglasses. Like, in case you wanna make a run for it this morning.
- SPShaan Puri
Like-
- SPSpeaker
Like, uh, I, I gave you everything that you could want.
- SPShaan Puri
But, but he's, he's, he's like-
- SPSpeaker
His parents are there
- SPShaan Puri
... he's like, "I re- I realize now in this situation it, it might be in bad taste, but it's, it's, it's a wig and hair coloring. Uh, uh, glasses and hair color in case you wanna flee. But I, I understand that that might not be appropriate right now."
- SPSam Parr
[laughs]
- SPShaan Puri
"Um, I'm gonna go to my car for a little bit." [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SPShaan Puri
And he goes and he sits in his car. [laughs]
- SPSam Parr
Did, um, uh, that's, it would make me feel sad for the s- the kids, too. Like, because they're showing her kids a- and it would manipulate, like, into thinking-
- SPShaan Puri
Yeah, there's like a heartbreaking moment where she's, she's, right before she's going to jail, she's like, she's like tells Billy, she's like, "I left milk in the fridge." And then she just like-
- SPSam Parr
Ah
- SPShaan Puri
... starts crying, right? 'Cause she's like not gonna be able to, you know, breastfeed her kids who they showed her doing that many times now, and she's going to jail for an unknown period of time.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, definitely crazy.
- SPSam Parr
What, uh, when does she get out?
- SPSpeaker
10 years.
- SPShaan Puri
So it's a 10-year sentence. I think she's supposed to get out in four or something, right, Ben? Is that the-
- SPSpeaker
I think she's, she's getting out this year, I think. Like, or in the next year.
- SPSam Parr
And what does it say what she was like in prison?
- SPShaan Puri
Uh, well, they don't, they don't know. They don't say, and you can't, they can't show it. So, you know, they talk about how, like, she gets like two minutes of phone time. And they talk about some of, like, the difficulties of life there, uh-
- 27:25 – 32:44
Recreating Holmes after prison: AI stand-in, power of attorney, and tweeting as her
- SPSpeaker
But there's this funny scene where, uh, they're in the kitchen, and you remember how Billy made, like, a AI recreation of Elizabeth Holmes?
- SPShaan Puri
[laughs]
- SPSam Parr
Like-
- SPSpeaker
Like, right before she went to prison, they, like, did this whole, they like went somewhere, did, like, a photo shoot, and they were able to create, like, an AI version of Elizabeth Holmes. And basically it got to the point where, like, he could make her say anything.
- SPShaan Puri
Yeah, so, so they, they show Billy being, like, this kinda super controlling. He loves her, but he's controlling, and it might not be in her best interest, but she loves him so devotionally that she's okay with it. And like maybe that's how she was at Theranos with Sunny, and maybe that's why. So basically he's sitting there at his dinner table. There's the AI giant monitor of her just sitting there fake ne- next to him.
- SPSam Parr
Oh my God.
- SPShaan Puri
A three-foot-long Komodo dragon on the table, which I guess is his, like, pet dragon. Once she got, once she went to jail, he's got this, like, crazy pet dragon. And, um, and he's talking about how he has power of attorney, so they're like, "How is she tweeting?" And he's like, "Well, like, you know, she, she has internet access, but it's only email." And they're like, "So how is she tweeting?" He's like, "Well, you know, it's me physically typing it, but she sends it to me." It's like, "So she tells you, like, 'Tweet this?'" He's like, "Well, no, she doesn't have to tell me. I know. I know her so w- we're like this. Like, we're, we're one." And they're like, "Well, that's pretty messed up. You're posing as her. People don't know that's you saying it, not her." He's like, "Well, it's, I know what she would wanna say." And they're like, "You see how that's, like, messed up, right?" [laughs] And he's tweeting, like, all this Trump stuff and-
- SPSam Parr
He DM'd me once.
- SPShaan Puri
What?
- SPSam Parr
Holmes, Holmes DM'd me once. Uh, one time someone was-
- SPShaan Puri
Billy DM'd you.
- SPSam Parr
Bill- Well, I didn't know who it was. Let, read it.
- SPShaan Puri
I can't, I can't see what it's saying.
- SPSam Parr
So this, the, the, so the background of this is, like, there was, like, a controversy where people were, like, giving me shit, and I, like, replied. And I'm like, "No, this is not true. This, here's the truth." And he replied, and it said, uh, he goes, um, "You handled that exceedingly well." And I said, I don't like reading that I say it LOL. It makes me sound like a little girl. But I said, "LOL. [laughs] Thank you, but I can't decide if I want you to think that I handled that well." [laughs] And, uh, he-
- SPShaan Puri
Or not. But thank you
- SPSam Parr
... yeah. Yeah.
- SPShaan Puri
Dude, you gotta read your words. [laughs] This, this is the core of the movie.
- SPSam Parr
I can't read it.
- SPShaan Puri
All right, then it's crying, laughing-
- SPSam Parr
I can't read it.
- SPShaan Puri
All right, I'll read it. Crying laughing emoji, back to you. And then you say, "I'm being serious." [laughs]
- SPSam Parr
[laughs]
- SPShaan Puri
And then, "Your response was perfect. Pa- passion and humility." And then?
- SPSam Parr
That's it. That's, I didn't save it. And it said, uh, "Thank you."
- SPSpeaker
But what's, what's at the bottom there? There's a, there's a blue box there.
- SPShaan Puri
There's something at the bottom there.
- SPSam Parr
It just says-
- SPShaan Puri
Something you maybe didn't want us to see, but it's you can see everything night.
- SPSam Parr
No, that wa- it just said thank you. That was it. That was the end of the conversation. And then I said, "Is this really Elizabeth Holmes? Who is this?" And no one replied.
- SPShaan Puri
[laughs]
- 32:44 – 36:58
Winners and losers: Nathan’s breakout, Holmes’ reframing, Billy’s reputational hit
- SPSam Parr
This sounds like a huge, huge win for Holmes because before everyone thought this woman's evil-
- SPShaan Puri
She's a monster. Yeah
- SPSam Parr
... there's nothing here. And now at least people think-
- SPShaan Puri
Yeah
- SPSam Parr
... maybe, we're not sure, or it's complicated. And also, I've seen so many smart people say this is one of the greatest movies they have ever seen.
- SPShaan Puri
Yeah. If we did, like, a biggest winners and losers, I would say, Ben, who's the biggest winner in this whole thing?
- SPSpeaker
Nathan Fielder, I think. Like, I think Nathan Fielder goes from well-known in a small group of people to, like, gonna be massively famous now-
- SPShaan Puri
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... probably.
- SPShaan Puri
And he did his life's work, his schtick, found, like, lock and key. Found the perfect lock for hi- his unique key that he is. So I think Nathan, biggest winner. Second is Elizabeth.
- SPSpeaker
I mean-
- SPShaan Puri
Right? Right?
- SPSpeaker
I mean, I would've said second's-
- SPSam Parr
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... A24, just another win on A24's notch-
- SPSam Parr
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... of another massive hit.
- SPShaan Puri
No, but if this is A24, if they don't do this movie, they're still A24. For her, for her and Nathan, this is life-changing.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Yeah.
- SPSam Parr
Because at least now she can go in the speaker circuit.
- SPSpeaker
Now, now-
- SPShaan Puri
Like a, a-
- SPSpeaker
... A16Z can back her next round, you know, when she comes out of prison.
- SPShaan Puri
[laughs] Yeah, exactly. Um, so I think she's the biggest winner. I think biggest loser is Billy.
- SPSam Parr
Has to be Billy.
- SPShaan Puri
I think kind of next biggest loser is the actress, but maybe I'm alone in that. Did you feel that way?
- SPSpeaker
No. I, I mean, I personally didn't, but I think she had a lot of backlash online. Like, I think a lot of people said she came out as, like, too judgmental and stuff like that.
- SPShaan Puri
Well, sh- she was like, this is before she even met him. This is literally just off of, like, watching the pre-cut-
- SPSam Parr
Before Amanda met Nathan.
- SPShaan Puri
No, no, before Amanda met Billy. She's watching with Nathan the, like, pre-cut. Like, the, the, the whatever. The rough cut of the movie. And then she's, like, talking to him about what, where to from here, and she's like, "I wish I could just dig up some dirt on him." He's like, "On who?" She's like, "Billy." He's like, "You want me to dig up dirt on Billy? Why?" She's like, she's like, "To, like, break them up and show, like, you know, what he's..." And he's like, "You want me to break them up?" She's like, "Yeah, I wouldn't want any woman to be with a guy like that." It's, like, such a, like, kind of, like-
- 36:58 – 39:58
Why the movie feels so alien: living inside their bizarre reality
- SPSam Parr
Have you ever been to someone's house and, like, seen how they live? Like, I've, I've been to, like, a couple's house and seen their kids and I'm, like, shocked where they say there's, like, levels to wealth, there's levels to, like, athletics, and then there's, like, different levels of, like, weirdness and it's like these people live so differently from me I can't even... It's hard to even empathize. Like, I've met, like, um, a couple before and, like, their kid, like, bossed them around a- and it was like, "Oh, well, our kid said that he doesn't wanna do this, so we're just not gonna do this." And I, I remember thinking, I'm like, "That is crazy. That, that, that is crazy people do that." But there's, like, more extremes where you're like, you'll meet someone and you're like, "Your kids are 10, they don't go to school, they got long hair, like, you believe in like..." Like, like you, like... It's, like, crazy that people think that way, and it's not necessarily I say crazy, but crazy in the sense of, like, it's so unique and different from how I would do it, not necessarily right or wrong. But you see that there's, like, different levels of how people live. This seems like one of those experiments where you're like, "I believe these people actually believe this. I believe that they live this way," and that is so odd in the sense of, like, that is just so far from what the average person would be like, but I also believe that what they're doing is true to them and they act like this even when there aren't cameras around. And that's crazy how people get caught in this vortex.
- SPShaan Puri
This, this is their reality, and their reality is bizarre for the rest of us.
- SPSam Parr
Yeah. Like, for example, I've hung out with a couple comedians before and I'm like, "They are funny all the time. Like, they cannot be serious." Like, they're n- I've never seen them act serious, even in the most serious situations. Like, if there was a hostage situation or if they were dying of cancer, they would be cracking jokes, and that's just so different from how I would ever react to the situation. But it's not a shtick. People are just, they're, they're, they're strange. Or, like, when you see, like, a celebrity, like, sing acapella, like a singer, you're like, "Oh my God, this is crazy. Even when they don't use Auto-Tune, they're the best. This is crazy that this talent exists." It's sorta like when you see this movie, you're like, "I can't believe that this type of wild attitude truly exists," and it's real. They actually are like that.
- SPShaan Puri
Yeah. Def- definitely felt that way. Ben, what do you think of that?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Sam asked what I thought. My overall thought is you gotta go see the movie. Like, I think, uh-
- SPShaan Puri
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... you gotta go see this movie. Like, I'll go pay for your t- I'll pay for your ticket right now. I'll have my instinct book it for you to go in an hour.
- SPSam Parr
Dude, my wife is going on Wednesday and she was like, "I'm going without you," 'cause I told her I couldn't sit through a three-hour movie.
- SPSpeaker
You gotta see it
- SPSam Parr
... and I just, I just texted her, I said, "Get a babysitter. I'm going."
- SPShaan Puri
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SPShaan Puri
Daddy's coming. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. I mean, I, I think they believe what they're saying. I think, uh, yeah, they're just so much different than normal people are, and that's kind of... But I think that's what it takes to build a multi-billion dollar company, even if it was fake, right? You gotta kinda be cra- you gotta be crazy.
- SPSam Parr
I don't think that's what it takes. I think that is a version of what it could take.
- SPSpeaker
Maybe the better way to say it is, like, if that's, if that was the outcome, you shouldn't be shocked by what you see, you know how they are.
- SPSam Parr
Uh, yeah, I agree. That's awesome. All right. You guys have convinced me, uh, to see the movie now. 'Cause it is-
- SPShaan Puri
We-
- SPSam Parr
... super long, right?
- 39:58 – 49:41
Craft breakdown: reenactments, awkward-question weaponry, and standout scenes
- SPShaan Puri
Yeah. It's very long. It's, it's weird because in the middle of the movie I'm like, "How long is this movie?" And then it ends so abruptly that I was like, "I need more. I need... You can't end there. I need to, I need more finality and conclusion on this." So that was, that was at least my feeling at the end. Um, can we just end with, I just wanna know for Ben and, and Diego, like, what are your... What were the moments of genius or the best part that you remember? Like, what was the... What are you, like, still... What's still, like, burned into your mind, you know, a day later? Or your, you know, give me your, your, your favorite, favorite things that stood out.
- SPSpeaker
I mean, I think the reenactments were just great. Like, even just reenacting the entire prison scene. So basically he goes to visit Elizabeth Holmes in prison, can't bring cameras in. What does he do? The next best thing, which is recreate the entire prison, the whole inside, have the guards, have, like, fake prisoners coming in from the yard.
- SPShaan Puri
The vending machines. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, the vending machines, everything. Um, I just thought the reenactments, I thought the storytelling was A+. Um, I can't wait for Nathan's next big thing. Um, but yeah, those are sort of my big takeaways.
- SPShaan Puri
What about you, Ben?
- SPSam Parr
The production budget was only $5 to $7 million.
- SPSpeaker
Uh, I would say, I would say the way Nathan Fielder asks questions where you're like, "Oh, that's... Like, I wouldn't ask that," or be uncomfortable asking it, and he just asks straight up whether it's big or small. He just stands there and asks and sits with the uncomfortability. Um-
- SPShaan Puri
Some- somebody said he ha- he has, uh, weaponized awkwardness at a level-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SPShaan Puri
... nobody's seen before, meaning-
- SPSpeaker
That's great
- SPShaan Puri
... he's willing to sit in it just as long as you are, and the weird thing is she's the only one to ever match his crazy on that. What, what's an example, Ben, of, like, a question they... 'Cause I thought in some ways, yes, he, he says things that are very, like, blunt, but a lot of times I'm like, "Ask the follow-up. Ask d- ask directly. Ask the thing directly."
- SPSpeaker
Oh, he did, he did ask direct-
- SPShaan Puri
He doesn't do it
- SPSpeaker
... a lot of the times when he asks directly, Billy, at least in the first half, like, pulls them out of the room. He's like, "Oh, we gotta go." So he'll be like, "Oh, tell me..." You know, he'll ask a question of, like, "We gotta go," before they answer. I mean, this is a small one, but he stays in the house and they put out a bed frame, and I just remember him being like, "Wait, so do you sleep on bedfra-", you know, he was like, "Is there a bed?" And the, 'cause there was no mattress. And I just thought even that question alone, the way he asked it, was good. I th- I liked the use of Amanda Seyfried because I thought she was kinda saying what people were thinking a lot, and I didn't... You know, she was judgmental, but I do think it was, like, a very meta thing.
- SPShaan Puri
That's how, that's how the normal person watching would act, right? Like-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. It was very meta to bring her in, who seemed very normal in the way she was thinking about it, so it helped me understand... It helped, it took someone less autistic in the room, and she was, like, normal, and she was just asking normal questions to help you process it. I think, um, you know, I k- I just wanted more. Like, I left wanting way more. I want... I, I've tried to listen to, like, eight podcasts after this, and no- none of the podcasts have delivered yet, and what I'm looking f- like, I'm looking for an intellectual conversation to help me process. I read, like- Two hours of Reddit till, like, 2:00 AM the night after I watched it.
- SPSam Parr
Yeah, fair.
- SPSpeaker
I'm just looking for the, like, post-game conversation, which hopefully after Sam sees it, this can deliver on again.
- SPSam Parr
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Um, 'cause this was, the first 80 minute, the first 80% of this is just Shaan telling you what happened, so I wanna, I wanna hear the post game.
- SPSam Parr
Well, it would be cool, it'd be cool, uh, to have Tim Draper on. Um, Tim Draper is, uh, see, I've never talked to him, but he seems like a pretty great guy, and he was one of the original champions of Elizabeth Holmes. It'd be interesting to hear his perspective, 'cause he got burned the hardest in terms of, I think financially, he got burned the hardest. Um-
- SPShaan Puri
So Ben, if we wanted to give you what you wanted, which is the, the, uh, what, let's do it. What do you, what do you, what do you wanna hear? What do you wanna know about?
- SPSpeaker
I mean, honestly, I was like, "I should go book this movie to go see it in an hour and take notes of all the things that I..." Like, go re-watch it with a notepad 'cause I, you know, just take notes of the stuff I'm noticing. 'Cause I, I just wanna hear, I wanna hear you guys break down what you thought without retelling it for people that have seen it, and like, "Oh, this was interesting for this reason," or like, "I disagreed with..." Like, "Here's my interpretation of what was happening."
- SPSam Parr
We just get done doing a, a 50-minute podcast, and Ben ends with, "Well, what do you want?" And Ben goes, "Eh."
- SPShaan Puri
Not that.
- SPSam Parr
"You're not really delivering."
- SPSpeaker
Oh-
- SPSam Parr
Eh.
- SPSpeaker
Well, I mean, I mean, for the first 40 minutes, if you saw the movie, it's like Shaan's telling you his version that's, you know, obviously gonna be slightly worse than the movie, you know? No offense.
- 49:41 – 53:39
Final ratings and post-viewing conclusion: fraud vs ‘hustle’ in Holmes’ mind
- SPSam Parr
All right, I'm sold. I'll go see it. What, what, what's it out of 10? Wrap up there.
- SPShaan Puri
It has to be a 10. It has to be a 10.
- SPSam Parr
Is that good?
- SPSpeaker
I mean, it's 10.
- SPShaan Puri
Is there any other movie where I'm like, "Yo, I gotta do a movie, movie debrief-
- SPSpeaker
It's a 10
- SPShaan Puri
... the next day?" Uh, that alone is, like, the evidence. You can't, I, it's on a different axis. It's not, it was not the most enter- not the most entertaining or most enjoyable thing to watch. It's not the most satisfying movie. But it's an astonishing movie. It's astonishing.
- SPSam Parr
How do you do this in secrecy? Because he's been doing stuff leading up to this. Like, I see him, like, he was, like, a fringe guy. Like, I've, I've seen just, like, a, a handful of, like, viral clips, and it seems like he's been doing stuff. So, but how do you create-
- SPShaan Puri
They said they kept a very tight circle 'cause one of the problems was if people knew what he was doing or what he was talking about, it would've kinda spoiled the movie. So he had to keep it very, very tight. They said, like, maybe, like, you know, 30 people knew about the film altogether. Like, it was, like, a very tight circle.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. One, one thing that's crazy is Brian Johnson did a Q&A right afterwards, supposedly, in LA with, uh, with Billy. And I'm trying to, I DM'd a bunch of people to try and call them and ask what he said afterwards 'cause it's off the record, but Brian Johnson did a Billy Q&A on Friday.
- SPSam Parr
Dude, why would Billy do a Q&A right after the, a documentary where they're showing his dick, and they make him look bad?
- SPSpeaker
You, you need to understand Billy by watching the movie.
- SPShaan Puri
You don't understand Bi-
- SPSpeaker
Then you'll know why he did it
- SPShaan Puri
... the, the, the man that is Billy.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Billy's not you-
- SPShaan Puri
But-
- SPSpeaker
... and you're not Billy is what you have to understand.
- SPShaan Puri
All right. Ben, give me the final verdict on your belief that Elizabeth Holmes was a knowing, was knowingly, uh, committing fraud, like con- like conning, like she was in on it.
- SPSpeaker
There's, there's too much evidence that she knew. I think she may- she didn't know everything, but she definitely was complicit and was a part of some of it. She definitely knew.
- SPShaan Puri
Okay. She knew or she did it? Two different things.
- SPSpeaker
She definitely, she definitely did it.
- SPShaan Puri
Okay. If she did it and she knew, and maybe she didn't do all of it, but she was in the loop and, and was on board with all of it, then if that's true, then what do you make of how she acted in the movie?
- SPSpeaker
I think she didn't believe it was fraud. I think she, it was fraud, but she didn't interpret it that way. And the way she would, the way, she did it to hit the big mission, or, like, to solve the problem, but sh- and she di- because she was trying to solve this big problem, she didn't view it as fraud. She viewed it as doing whatever it took to ultimately get there.
- SPShaan Puri
The means justified the ends.
- SPSpeaker
Yes. That's how I think she told herself that story.
- SPShaan Puri
It wasn't, it's kind of like the line between, um, the line between crime and hustle is thinner than people think in the startup world.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, and she told herself that what she was doing was hustle, and that's what it was gonna take to build this generational company, and not fraud.
- SPShaan Puri
I'm, I'm with you on that. I think that she knew what was going on, meaning she wasn't out of the loop. It wasn't being done behind her back by other people. She knew what was going on and was complicit in it. She didn't see it as fraud or illegal or harming anybody. She saw it as being determined, strong-willed, fake it till you make it, um, you know, find a way to keep, keep the thing going because you're going to s- you know, succeed and change the world for better when you do it. That's my, that's my belief about her after watching this and r- and hearing about her before this.
- SPSpeaker
But it, but it was fraud. She just didn't think of it in that context.
Episode duration: 53:39
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Transcript of episode VVw5m7IA0no
