Ep #11 | WTF Goes into Building a Fashion, Beauty, or Home Brand? Nikhil w/ Kishore, Raj, and Ananth

1. 0:00 – 2:06

   Intro

   1. NKNikhil Kamath0:00

      [upbeat music] So I have been looking into consumption, and each one of you, I will explain how, but brings a totally different insight into consumption. [upbeat music] I want people who want to build a brand today, young guys-

   2. ANAnanth Narayanan0:20

      Sure.

   3. NKNikhil Kamath0:20

      Zero to one, to learn everything-

   4. ANAnanth Narayanan0:22

      Okay

   5. NKNikhil Kamath0:22

      ... from all of your experiences. [upbeat music] And I'm going. So I have been looking into consumption. We created a fund to invest into companies around consumption. Uh, there seems to be a double standard in a way, wherein the reported numbers on the top are looking good, but everyone I talk to on the ground is talking about how consumption seems to have dropped in the last two or three months. Uh, this could be in travel, this could be in fashion, this could be e-commerce. Uh, across segments, very unlike a year leading up to an election, consumption seems to be dropping. Uh, as an investor and also talking to people who want to build a brand from zero to one, or to scale a brand in consumption, which I broadly believe is the larger India opportunity. We have too few independent Indian brands in consumption which have scaled. Uh, so I thought this would be opportune.

   6. ANAnanth Narayanan1:38

      Yeah.

   7. NKNikhil Kamath1:38

      The timing is great, and each one of you, I will explain how, but brings a totally different insight into consumption. Don't be fooled by Raj. I think people have seen one facet of Raj, but the other more interesting facet, I think we'll all get to learn today, as I have in my time with Raj. Uh, since you're here for the first time, would you like to tell us a bit about yourself? How did

2. 2:06 – 4:23

   Ananth’s Exploratory Career

   1. NKNikhil Kamath2:06

      Anant begin? Where did he begin? How did you arrive at Mensa or creating Mensa? Give us, like, a few minutes.

   2. ANAnanth Narayanan2:14

      I just want to make sure it's not boring.

   3. NKNikhil Kamath2:16

      Yeah.

   4. ANAnanth Narayanan2:16

      Actually, by chance, and a little bit a random path.

   5. NKNikhil Kamath2:20

      Mm-hmm.

   6. ANAnanth Narayanan2:20

      I did fifteen years in consulting.

   7. NKNikhil Kamath2:22

      Before that. Start from the very beginning. Born...

   8. ANAnanth Narayanan2:25

      Born in Chennai, grew up in Chennai.

   9. NKNikhil Kamath2:27

      Parents?

   10. ANAnanth Narayanan2:28

       Did engineering. Parents... My father was a professional, worked in the auto industry. He worked at a-

   11. NKNikhil Kamath2:34

       Which?

   12. ANAnanth Narayanan2:34

       ... company, Hindustan Motors.

   13. NKNikhil Kamath2:35

       Mm-hmm.

   14. ANAnanth Narayanan2:36

       Uh, which actually I think makes, or used to make, among the more iconic cars-

   15. NKNikhil Kamath2:40

       Ambassador.

   16. ANAnanth Narayanan2:40

       So the Ambassador and the Contessa. So he sort of did that. Uh, so I grew up in Chennai, but I spent a bit of time in Calcutta, a bit of time in Indore, all of that. Um, did engineering, which seemed like the logical thing at that time. You know, you did engineering or were a doctor. The startup world actually hadn't really, you know, made it into-

   17. NKNikhil Kamath3:04

       What year is this?

   18. ANAnanth Narayanan3:04

       This was '94-

   19. NKNikhil Kamath3:05

       Mm-hmm

   20. ANAnanth Narayanan3:05

       ... was when I graduated. Um, so '98 is when I graduated from college, and then I went and did engineering again, and I always thought I wanted to be an auto guy. Uh, my dream job, actually, at that point, was to design engines at Cummins. Um, instead, I joined McKinsey, which is a consulting firm. Um, they paid slightly more. I had a loan, [chuckles] so I decided to go to-

   21. NKNikhil Kamath3:26

       How much did McKinsey pay back in the day?

   22. ANAnanth Narayanan3:28

       McKinsey, at that time, for an analyst, would pay fifty thousand dollars.

   23. NKNikhil Kamath3:32

       Wow! And this was in the US, I guess?

   24. ANAnanth Narayanan3:33

       It's in the US. So I joined in the US.

   25. NKNikhil Kamath3:35

       And they were hiring engineers?

   26. ANAnanth Narayanan3:37

       They were hiring engineers. So I was among the first automotive manufacturing analyst-type engineers that they hired. At that time, McKinsey was getting into auto and operations. So since I didn't do automotive in real life, I thought I'll do it through consulting. I always thought I'd do it for two years. I ended up staying for fifteen. So lived in China for about three, four years. Uh, US, six, seven, and then came back and spent about four, five years.

   27. NKNikhil Kamath4:03

       China when?

   28. ANAnanth Narayanan4:04

       2002 to 2005. So anyway, to cut the long story short, did McKinsey for a long time. I came back to India because my wife wanted to come back to her family-run business, diagnostic lab. So we came back to Chennai. I started the McKinsey office there. Uh, did that, got elected senior partner, and then left. Did Myntra,

3. 4:23 – 7:19

   How Ananth became Myntra’s CEO

   1. ANAnanth Narayanan4:23

      which is my fashion experience, which is quite unusual.

   2. NKNikhil Kamath4:26

      How did you go from that to being CEO of Myntra?

   3. ANAnanth Narayanan4:28

      Um, a bit random again, Nikhil. I think, uh, I met Sachin, Binny, and Mukesh.

   4. NKNikhil Kamath4:33

      Mm-hmm.

   5. ANAnanth Narayanan4:34

      Um, uh-

   6. NKNikhil Kamath4:35

      What did you think of them personally?

   7. ANAnanth Narayanan4:38

      What did I think of them personally? I think each of them brought very, very different things to the table. Uh, Mukesh was all about people and culture. Sachin was all about vision, big picture. Binny was the ops guy, execution, ops, et cetera. So I thought they were a very interesting group of people. They had just bought Myntra when I met them. I actually... This happened because one of my-

   8. NKNikhil Kamath4:57

      The good and the bad. They're friends of mine, they won't feel bad. You can say-

   9. ANAnanth Narayanan5:00

      They're friends of mine as well. Um-

   10. NKNikhil Kamath5:01

       What is the bad part? You said he really-

   11. ANAnanth Narayanan5:03

       Um, no, I think the bad part is, by the way, I think they could have figured out more complementarity amongst each other.

   12. NKNikhil Kamath5:08

       They didn't get along?

   13. ANAnanth Narayanan5:09

       I think at that time they all got along. Now, I think as things evolve and companies evolve, I think they all evolved into very different people, very different goals.

   14. NKNikhil Kamath5:15

       Who was right and who was wrong amongst the three of them?

   15. ANAnanth Narayanan5:17

       I don't think, uh, one was right or one was wrong. I think, by the way, it's, it is still the most successful exit that I think India has produced. So I think they did something right. Much more right than wrong. Uh, since you're their friend, maybe you know a little bit more.

   16. NKNikhil Kamath5:31

       [laughing]

   17. ANAnanth Narayanan5:32

       But, um, uh, but essentially, uh, I... So it happened by chance.

   18. NKNikhil Kamath5:36

       Mm.

   19. ANAnanth Narayanan5:36

       So I do a lot of stuff based on instinct and people, and some macros. So may not be quite like investing, but, you know, for me, people matter, so you make the bet on the person, and I thought they always put the company first, and I bet on them. I think e-commerce was a ten-year trend, so bet on that.

   20. NKNikhil Kamath5:53

       What year was this?

   21. ANAnanth Narayanan5:54

       This was 2015. So '14 end, '15, is when I started with Myntra, and actually, by the way, uh, fashion in e-commerce was a very logical choice. It's the only one with high gross margins.... at that time. I mean, beauty, et cetera, came much later.

   22. NKNikhil Kamath6:08

       Mm-hmm.

   23. ANAnanth Narayanan6:08

       So decided, we'll try it. What's the worst that can happen? Uh, turned out to be great. Really enjoyed the experience. So that's was my first- I mean, at that time, by the way, just to give you perspective, I didn't know the difference between a knit and a woven. I'd never... I mean, I was in automotive-

   24. NKNikhil Kamath6:22

       Between a?

   25. ANAnanth Narayanan6:22

       -a knit garment and a woven garment, or a denim. I mean, I could tell a difference between a casting and a forging, but that wasn't particularly helpful. Um, so did that for four years. Really enjoyed it. Uh, thought there was something interesting about building. Um, Flipkart sold to Walmart. Had, uh, thought I would be more entrepreneurial.

   26. NKNikhil Kamath6:43

       How big was Myntra during your time?

   27. ANAnanth Narayanan6:45

       It sort of went from, call it 200, 250 million, to a little over a billion and a half.

   28. NKNikhil Kamath6:50

       Of sales?

   29. ANAnanth Narayanan6:51

       Of sales. GMV would have been higher.

   30. NKNikhil Kamath6:53

       Mm.
4. 7:19 – 9:18

   Ananth’s Entry into Pharmacy

   1. ANAnanth Narayanan7:19

      invested some money into a company called Medlife, which is an e-pharmacy business. Why e-pharmacy? I think, by the way, here I should have done more homework. Uh, gross margins were lower, so I should've, should've picked that up. But it seemed interesting. It was, uh, Medlife was a company which was completely privately funded. So Prashant was the founder, as part of the Alkem family, and Tushar basically put all of their personal money in. There were no external investors. Uh, it was a small business at that time, forty, fifty crores a month, relative to the Myntra scale, right?

   2. NKNikhil Kamath7:49

      Mm.

   3. ANAnanth Narayanan7:49

      Um, so got in, got in as the CEO. I also put in money. I bought ten percent of the business. Um, there were no external investors, so it was relatively easy to put in money. Um, put some money in, went through a humbling experience trying to raise money.

   4. NKNikhil Kamath8:02

      Mm-hmm.

   5. ANAnanth Narayanan8:03

      Uh, you know, I had done a bunch of raising money through the Flipkart ecosystem, and everything seemed easy. Um, you sort of go out independently and try and raise money, I think it's quite tough. Uh, we were not able to raise money at Medlife. We went through multiple iterations. I think at that time, if you remember, WeWork happened.

   6. NKNikhil Kamath8:21

      Yeah.

   7. ANAnanth Narayanan8:21

      Right? Uh, and then everything went into a freeze, and then right after that, COVID happened. So, you know, you got into this... But we got quite lucky. COVID, which destroyed many other businesses, actually created [chuckles] a huge tailwind for e-pharmacy, right?

   8. NKNikhil Kamath8:35

      Mm.

   9. ANAnanth Narayanan8:35

      Because everybody started shopping online. The government changed, uh, regulations and looked at it more favorably. Consolidation started to happen. Netmeds got bought at that time by Reliance, just before this, and then we were the independent one. 1MG got bought by Tatas.

   10. NKNikhil Kamath8:51

       Mm.

   11. ANAnanth Narayanan8:51

       So we got bought by PharmEasy. Um, turned out to be a very good deal at that point of time.

   12. NKNikhil Kamath8:57

       Share swap, not a, not cash, right?

   13. ANAnanth Narayanan8:58

       Share swap.

   14. NKNikhil Kamath8:58

       Yeah.

   15. ANAnanth Narayanan8:58

       But essentially, they provided lots of liquidity, because after that, they continued to raise and raise and raise, right? So after the, uh, PharmEasy sort of buy, I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do. Um, I could have gone and been an investor or joined a venture capital firm. I... You know, you just did a podcast recently, but I felt like I was an operator.

5. 9:18 – 13:16

   Ananth's E-commerce Comeback

   1. ANAnanth Narayanan9:18

      Um, just very interesting thing, I think, is, um, in India, we're mostly still an unbranded market, I think in almost all spaces.

   2. NKNikhil Kamath9:28

      Especially in fashion?

   3. ANAnanth Narayanan9:29

      Especially in fashion. Uh, also true in beauty, also true in home decor, which are the three spaces that we are in. So, large unbranded market. Second is, I think the friction of building brands is becoming less. You know, call it for one forty, one fifty rupees, maybe the ch- rate has changed slightly, but one forty, one fifty rupees, you can get to twenty-three thousand PIN codes or twenty-six thousand.

   4. NKNikhil Kamath9:52

      You mean as a delivery fee?

   5. ANAnanth Narayanan9:54

      As a delivery fee. I mean, you know, if you think about Unilever, you think about Marico, you think about-

   6. NKNikhil Kamath9:58

      Is that time dependent? If you want to deliver in one day versus one week, does the price change drastically?

   7. ANAnanth Narayanan10:02

      Not really. So I think there's break points.

   8. NKNikhil Kamath10:05

      Mm.

   9. ANAnanth Narayanan10:05

      I think there's a within two day, two to two and a half day delivery, and then there is a two and a half to five, six day delivery. And I think-

   10. NKNikhil Kamath10:10

       Is that also based on weight?

   11. ANAnanth Narayanan10:12

       It is based on weight. Um, so most of, actually, volume-value ratios are among the most efficient in fashion and in beauty, right? It's very bad when you do large appliances-

   12. NKNikhil Kamath10:24

       Mm-hmm

   13. ANAnanth Narayanan10:24

       ... because you ship large amounts of air. So, but now, for at least fashion, that category, where it's not very heavy and not very volumetric, for one forty rupees, you can get to, or beauty, you can get to most parts of India. So you don't need a very large distribution network-

   14. NKNikhil Kamath10:38

       Mm

   15. ANAnanth Narayanan10:38

       ... to reach customers, at least in the initial stages. Second, I think brand building, now, influence of brand building happens a lot, actually, online. E-commerce and fashion is maybe ten, eleven percent, roughly. Overall, e-commerce is slightly lower, given grocery will bring it down. But I would say what is influenced online will be fifty percent, right? So brand building can happen very differently. So that was the second thesis. The third is, it's very easy to start in India, very hard to scale in India. I think the scaling is boring. It's about efficiency. You know, we made jokes about time and efficiency. I think efficiency is really what drives a lot of scale. You have to do performance marketing well, you have to do sourcing well, you have to design well. These are all, like, boring things, after you get the product market fit right, to continue to scale. And I felt that was-

   16. NKNikhil Kamath11:26

       If you were to say hundred rupees spent on fashion in India-

   17. ANAnanth Narayanan11:29

       Yeah

   18. NKNikhil Kamath11:30

       ... how much is spent where, online versus offline?

   19. ANAnanth Narayanan11:33

       Online will be ten, eleven rupees.

   20. NKNikhil Kamath11:34

       Mm-hmm.

   21. ANAnanth Narayanan11:35

       Right? The rest will be offline.

   22. NKNikhil Kamath11:36

       How much is organized, how much is unorganized?

   23. ANAnanth Narayanan11:37

       I would say still, I mean, Kishore may also have a point of view on this, by... I would say, by the way, sixty percent is still disorganized, right? I think ready-to-stitch is still a very large segment. Most of ethnic, which is a very large portion of fashion, is still unorganized. You go to your nearby tailor, you go to your nearby store, it's not really a brand, right?

   24. NKNikhil Kamath11:57

       Is that close to being disrupted?

   25. ANAnanth Narayanan11:59

       Uh, I think there is, um, is- I think it's a five-year journey. I don't think it's like it happens overnight, right? I think the first big push has happened already. So-... to give you a sense, Nikhil, I think Myntra used to be, when Myntra started, right? Myntra used to be two, three percent fashion penetration online. It's now eleven percent. I mean, obviously, by the way, growth of Myntra, growth of Ajio, growth of XYZ, have all created-

   26. NKNikhil Kamath12:27

       And between 2015 to now?

   27. ANAnanth Narayanan12:29

       2015 to now.

   28. NKNikhil Kamath12:30

       Mm.

   29. ANAnanth Narayanan12:31

       When the market itself is growing, and this is all branded, right?

   30. NKNikhil Kamath12:33

       Mm.
6. 13:16 – 19:45

   Mensa Brands: What Is It?

   1. ANAnanth Narayanan13:16

      um, I don't want to get into a lot of scale and so on, but I think we have... It's essentially a house of brands. Uh, we have about twenty brands. We have brands in fashion, beauty, and home. Why those three categories? One is because I knew something about it. Second is, it's high gross margin category. Um, also, it's a large TAM.

   2. NKNikhil Kamath13:32

      What are the margins, typically?

   3. ANAnanth Narayanan13:33

      Fifty, sixty percent gross margin.

   4. NKNikhil Kamath13:35

      Mm.

   5. ANAnanth Narayanan13:35

      Right? Uh, in, in beauty, of course, it's higher-

   6. NKNikhil Kamath13:37

      Mm

   7. ANAnanth Narayanan13:37

      ... but in fashion, at least fifty-five, sixty. In beauty, seventy, eighty, right? Uh, depending on what area of beauty that you get to. Perfumes is high, et cetera, et cetera, right? So, um, we are trying to build a house of brands. It's a very simple thesis. Um, we get buildings which are half-finished, but with a good basement and a good foundation, and we build them out into hopefully skyscrapers, right? I mean, the number of thousand crore brands in the country is very, very, very few. Right? We spoke about this a little while ago. I think the goal for me, I think, is over the next five, seven years, could you build five, six thousand crore brands, right? In each of these spaces, and I think it's possible. I think you can build them very differently. You can build them more efficiently. Lots of lessons learned from the previous experiences, so trying to see if you can do it more efficiently and effectively this time. That's what we're trying to do.

   8. NKNikhil Kamath14:26

      And Mensa is doing about two hundred million now, sales?

   9. ANAnanth Narayanan14:29

      Yes.

   10. NKNikhil Kamath14:29

       And raised about two hundred million?

   11. ANAnanth Narayanan14:31

       Yes.

   12. NKNikhil Kamath14:32

       And not burning much money anymore?

   13. ANAnanth Narayanan14:34

       No, we're not burning at the EBITDA level-

   14. NKNikhil Kamath14:36

       Mm

   15. ANAnanth Narayanan14:36

       ... um, money, but I think, you know, there's still working capital investment and so on.

   16. NKNikhil Kamath14:40

       Because a lot of people watching this are not just entrepreneurs trying to start a business-

   17. ANAnanth Narayanan14:45

       Yep

   18. NKNikhil Kamath14:45

       ... but also investors.

   19. ANAnanth Narayanan14:47

       Right.

   20. NKNikhil Kamath14:47

       What is a good multiple to pay while you're investing in a fashion, A, and in a b- beauty, B, brand?

   21. ANAnanth Narayanan14:56

       Yeah. So I mean, look, from an EV to EBITDA multiple, I think, uh, you know, a lot of the FMCG brands trade at forty, fifty EV to EBITDA. And I think fashion, by the way, trades-

   22. NKNikhil Kamath15:07

       Can you explain what EV to EBITDA is?

   23. ANAnanth Narayanan15:08

       Sorry. Uh, enterprise value to the earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation, and amortization.

   24. NKNikhil Kamath15:14

       How do you arrive at enterprise value?

   25. ANAnanth Narayanan15:15

       Enterprise value is the overall value of the business, right?

   26. NKNikhil Kamath15:18

       Mm-hmm.

   27. ANAnanth Narayanan15:18

       Which is, what is the value of the equity of the business? Um, where-

   28. NKNikhil Kamath15:23

       What if I were to ask you for a simpler mul- multiple? In terms of sales, what is-

   29. ANAnanth Narayanan15:27

       So I think a revenue multiple is what I think you're looking for. My-

   30. NKNikhil Kamath15:30

       Are you considering sales as revenue?
7. 19:45 – 21:23

   Unveiling Raj's "Business Side"

   1. NKNikhil Kamath19:45

      back to the personal-

   2. ANAnanth Narayanan19:45

      Yeah

   3. NKNikhil Kamath19:46

      ... side of your story later. Raj needs no introduction. Raj is more popular than, uh, many people I know.

   4. ANAnanth Narayanan19:53

      Mm-hmm.

   5. NKNikhil Kamath19:54

      But the one thing people don't know about Raj is, uh, his insight into consumption is really different.

   6. ANAnanth Narayanan20:04

      Mm-hmm.

   7. NKNikhil Kamath20:04

      He has spent a large part of his life building a detergent brand.

   8. ANAnanth Narayanan20:08

      Yep.

   9. NKNikhil Kamath20:09

      And, uh, if I were to tell you a personal story, he started a new company called House of X, and when he was starting that company, we both were talking about, uh, you know, how we can work together on it. And the very, very impressive thing about Raj is, we were trying to beat him down on the valuation and the price and trying to get 20%, 30% into this company, because evidently, we believed in Raj and all that he can accomplish. But in 24 hours or 48 hours, he went to another venture capital fund, uh, Lightspeed-

   10. ANAnanth Narayanan20:45

       Yep

   11. NKNikhil Kamath20:46

       ... and he raised more money at three times the valuation, and the duration between beginning and end of that conversation was less than 48 hours.

   12. ANAnanth Narayanan20:55

       Fabulous.

   13. NKNikhil Kamath20:56

       And I found that incredibly impressive. And maybe you start there. What, what convinced whoever at Lightspeed to hear your pitch and fire that quickly? Is it just that Indian VCs don't do diligence, or is it [laughing] something else?

   14. RSRaj Shamani21:12

       [chuckles] I, [clears throat] I genuinely don't know about this, honestly. [chuckles] And I think, uh-

   15. NKNikhil Kamath21:19

       What worked?

   16. RSRaj Shamani21:20

       I think two or three things which

8. 21:23 – 22:44

   Raj on Fundraising for House of X

   1. RSRaj Shamani21:23

      I would like to say, which I believe that it worked. One of them was, before I started pitching to you or anyone, or, like, your friends, the larger group, I got it tested by Ananth, I got it tested by you, I got it tested by Varun and Gazal. I went down, and I actually got my pitched... my pitch crafted by at least 12 or 13 stellar founders in the India who I know.

   2. NKNikhil Kamath21:45

      I think that's such an incredible insight.

   3. ANAnanth Narayanan21:47

      It's a great insight.

   4. RSRaj Shamani21:48

      So-

   5. NKNikhil Kamath21:48

      Anyone pitching-

   6. RSRaj Shamani21:50

      So I actually, like, reached out to all of them, fly down, sat with them, tried to understand, and asked everybody to just not give me feedback, actually asked them to play devil's advocate. I was like: Just beat me down. You know, "Why do you think this..." Like, "I am coming here, and I know this will work. Tell me why this will not work." And because they gave me a lot of loops, probably that helped me. That was first. Second, I think the, like, why a lot of funds were interested in doing... So first, there was a growing interest in this space where, can you build media-led brands, content-led brands, creator or influencer industry-led brands?

   7. ANAnanth Narayanan22:27

      Yep.

   8. RSRaj Shamani22:28

      There was an interesting space because this was really popping in China, Korea, and US.

   9. ANAnanth Narayanan22:32

      Mm.

   10. RSRaj Shamani22:32

       Like, this was... There were a bunch of companies who were doing, and especially-

   11. ANAnanth Narayanan22:36

       Right

   12. RSRaj Shamani22:36

       ... when you, like, different ways. China has, like, live commerce and stuff. Korea is more into beauty, but different ways, and people were coming up with it.

   13. NKNikhil Kamath22:42

       Sorry, when you said

9. 22:44 – 23:38

   China's Live-Streaming: A Rising Trend

   1. NKNikhil Kamath22:44

      China is 20% online, how much of that is streaming?

   2. ANAnanth Narayanan22:48

      I don't have the number off the top of my head.

   3. NKNikhil Kamath22:49

      But a large portion of that-

   4. ANAnanth Narayanan22:50

      But I think now there's a fairly large chunk which is streaming.

   5. NKNikhil Kamath22:52

      50%?

   6. RSRaj Shamani22:53

      Live streaming is big.

   7. ANAnanth Narayanan22:54

      It's big.

   8. NKNikhil Kamath22:55

      Yeah.

   9. ANAnanth Narayanan22:55

      15, 20% of that will be live streaming now, I think.

   10. NKNikhil Kamath22:57

       Twen- 15, 20 or 50?

   11. ANAnanth Narayanan22:59

       No, I don't think it's 50. I don't think it's 50. At least we should check the facts, but my sense is it'll be, like, 15, 20%.

   12. RSRaj Shamani23:05

       Yeah. It can't be so much.

   13. ANAnanth Narayanan23:06

       It will not be so much.

   14. NKNikhil Kamath23:07

       What do you think about live streaming works? Why do people shop so much on live streaming?

   15. RSRaj Shamani23:12

       So I'll tell you, I think, uh, o- o-

   16. ANAnanth Narayanan23:14

       You please go ahead. Please go ahead.

   17. RSRaj Shamani23:16

       So I'll, I'll conclude... I'll complete the loop, and then we'll come to li- live streaming. So I think there was, like, a growing interest in it, and the third reason why people sort of maybe believed in what we were doing is because of my past experience and the team which were helping me doing it. So my past experience was, I started doing business when I was 16 with my father,

10. 23:38 – 27:47

    How Raj Scaled His Family Business

    1. RSRaj Shamani23:38

       and he was a small detergent manufacturer who used to completely discard branding. [chuckles]

    2. ANAnanth Narayanan23:44

       [chuckles]

    3. RSRaj Shamani23:45

       Like, he used to not believe in deterge-

    4. ANAnanth Narayanan23:47

       Interesting.

    5. RSRaj Shamani23:47

       He was like, "I want to build a great product, and if I've built a great product, it'll work."

    6. NKNikhil Kamath23:51

       Mm.

    7. ANAnanth Narayanan23:51

       Yep.

    8. RSRaj Shamani23:51

       So there was no marketing, no sales team, no distribution, no branding. He's like, "It just... This will work. I'll give it to one man- one guy, and then it'll automatically..." And he was doing it for 30 years, right? And he was able to do, like, I think when I joined, uh, he was doing around 40 lakhs a year, uh, in revenue. So that was a business scale I joined.

    9. ANAnanth Narayanan24:10

       Yep, yep.

    10. RSRaj Shamani24:11

        And then when I joined it and I took over, we divided the company into two parts. That one was market development, one was product development. We learned that through P&G. [chuckles]

    11. ANAnanth Narayanan24:19

        Yeah. [chuckles]

    12. NKNikhil Kamath24:21

        [chuckles]

    13. RSRaj Shamani24:21

        So I took over the market side, built distribution, went on villages to villages-... built a distribution-

    14. KBKishore Biyani24:27

        Oh.

    15. RSRaj Shamani24:28

        -and built a stellar distribution of two hundred distributors, and scaled that brand. Like within 18 months, we were 10X of what we were doing. Then another 18 months, we were like 10X of what we were doing, so just scaled. And we went on from like a small factory to now, like four, five.

    16. NKNikhil Kamath24:43

        So what worked?

    17. RSRaj Shamani24:43

        That was-

    18. NKNikhil Kamath24:44

        In branding and marketing the detergent?

    19. RSRaj Shamani24:46

        So two things which were really, really different, which I believe we were doing. We went to villages where people thought nobody will buy premium.

    20. NKNikhil Kamath24:54

        Mm.

    21. RSRaj Shamani24:54

        So what we essentially started doing, our detergent was 75 rupees a kg, which was, at that time, Tide was doing. Okay? Uh, and usually in villages, there was Ghadi and Wheel, which were doing ab- absolutely bang on, which is 50 rupees and below 50 rupees.

    22. KBKishore Biyani25:07

        Yeah.

    23. RSRaj Shamani25:08

        So we went to these villages. We told them, "Every time you're wearing expensive clothes, this is an expensive detergent for your expensive clothes."

    24. NKNikhil Kamath25:14

        Mm.

    25. RSRaj Shamani25:15

        So that clicked on in smallest, in the remote, remotest of villages where there were 10,000 population, 20,000 population. So I went on really deep. So from there on, the demand started beginning. The second thing, the second insight, I want to really thank, sir. Uh, it came from Big Bazaar, and my schooling was done there. And, uh, what I saw in Big Bazaar, there was my big- biggest homeworks I used to do.

    26. KBKishore Biyani25:36

        Okay.

    27. RSRaj Shamani25:36

        After my college, after my work, I used to stand in Big Bazaar for, like, hours, and for months. And I used to-

    28. NKNikhil Kamath25:43

        How old were you?

    29. RSRaj Shamani25:43

        I was 17.

    30. NKNikhil Kamath25:44

        Yeah, very weird kid. [laughing]
11. 27:47 – 29:50

    Raj's Eye-Opening Customer Observations

    1. RSRaj Shamani27:47

       insightful at that time. This is 2013, '14, I guess, '14, probably, yeah. So everybody was move- this is Indore showroom, uh, Treasure Island. Everybody was moving from solids to liquids-

    2. KBKishore Biyani27:58

       Mm

    3. RSRaj Shamani27:59

       ... and that was very, very cl- killer for me.

    4. NKNikhil Kamath28:01

       As detergents?

    5. KBKishore Biyani28:01

       As detergents.

    6. RSRaj Shamani28:02

       No, no, no, detergent.

    7. KBKishore Biyani28:02

       Oh.

    8. RSRaj Shamani28:03

       Everything.

    9. KBKishore Biyani28:03

       Everything.

    10. RSRaj Shamani28:04

        So from bathing soaps, you were going to shower gels-

    11. KBKishore Biyani28:07

        Interesting.

    12. RSRaj Shamani28:07

        ... hand soaps to hand wash gels.

    13. KBKishore Biyani28:08

        Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    14. RSRaj Shamani28:09

        Dishwash bars to dishwash gels.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath28:10

        What year was this?

    16. KBKishore Biyani28:11

        2013, you said.

    17. RSRaj Shamani28:12

        2013, '14 time.

    18. NKNikhil Kamath28:13

        Just starting.

    19. RSRaj Shamani28:13

        Just start, right?

    20. KBKishore Biyani28:14

        Yeah.

    21. RSRaj Shamani28:14

        And all the ads on television by... So Lifebuoy, Dettol, they were big.

    22. KBKishore Biyani28:19

        Yeah.

    23. RSRaj Shamani28:19

        They were doing only hand washes.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath28:21

        Mm.

    25. RSRaj Shamani28:21

        They stopped advertising. So I was like, because they are advertising liquids-

    26. KBKishore Biyani28:25

        Yeah

    27. RSRaj Shamani28:26

        ... in Big Bazaar, the biggest, the biggest, uh, their display is of-

    28. KBKishore Biyani28:30

        Was off

    29. RSRaj Shamani28:31

        ... these products, of these products.

    30. KBKishore Biyani28:32

        Yeah.
12. 29:50 – 31:30

    Why do Customers Upgrade?

    1. KBKishore Biyani29:50

       there is something... You know, every marketer's dream is to increase the per kilo or per liter price of everything. From soap to what, what you call, liquid, is an increase of price and upgrading of customers. And something comes about, like modern retail came about, and they were able to sell a new category and a new product.

    2. RSRaj Shamani30:06

       Mm.

    3. KBKishore Biyani30:06

       And Big Bazaar always worked on category creation. So any new categories, I think we were the player that time-

    4. RSRaj Shamani30:13

       Right

    5. KBKishore Biyani30:13

       ... to create a new category and move up the ladder for the consumers. So it, it's a simple story of a biscuit, Parle-G. Parle-G is hundred rupees a kilo.

    6. RSRaj Shamani30:20

       Mm.

    7. KBKishore Biyani30:21

       And you can now go up to cookies, which is four hundred rupees a kilo, and-

    8. RSRaj Shamani30:24

       Yeah

    9. KBKishore Biyani30:25

       ... go up to chocolates, which start from thousand rupees a kilo.

    10. RSRaj Shamani30:27

        Mm.

    11. KBKishore Biyani30:27

        So it's always upgradation. I think after liquid, the tablets have come in now.

    12. RSRaj Shamani30:30

        Correct.

    13. KBKishore Biyani30:31

        So-

    14. RSRaj Shamani30:31

        Correct.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath30:31

        Why? Is it dependent on how much the shipping cost is?

    16. KBKishore Biyani30:35

        No, no, no. It's all about upgrading in life.

    17. NKNikhil Kamath30:37

        Ah.

    18. KBKishore Biyani30:38

        Everything does the same job.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath30:39

        Mm.

    20. KBKishore Biyani30:40

        So a biscuit, a hundred rupees Gluco biscuit, uh-

    21. SPSpeaker30:43

        ... it's the vanity and the ego which you create through marketing and brand building.

    22. RSRaj Shamani30:46

        I think it's the brand, right? Also, I believe, uh, that if you can find out a way to make people lazy, you can do a great job, like you will be able to sell more.

    23. ANAnanth Narayanan30:56

        If you cut down the time taken-

    24. RSRaj Shamani30:57

        If you cut down the task. So because, so powder, think of it, you open powder, you have to, like, put up a scoop, or haath se uthao phir dalo. You don't know how much you're putting-

    25. SPSpeaker31:05

        Mm.

    26. RSRaj Shamani31:05

        You don't know-

    27. ANAnanth Narayanan31:06

        Yeah, yeah.

    28. RSRaj Shamani31:06

        You don't know how to carry it.

    29. SPSpeaker31:07

        I think all the brand marketers-

    30. RSRaj Shamani31:08

        Everybody does it.
13. 31:30 – 33:53

    Using Data for Product Development

    1. ANAnanth Narayanan31:30

       I think you can be much more... I think there's a lot more data available than there was earlier, right? So I have, by the way, a few brands where the product development happens primarily through thinking through search. So I have a brand called Botanic Earth, right? Or give you another example.

    2. RSRaj Shamani31:45

       Thinking through search?

    3. ANAnanth Narayanan31:47

       Yeah. So what happens is-

    4. RSRaj Shamani31:48

       Search on what, Google?

    5. ANAnanth Narayanan31:48

       S- search on Google, search on Amazon-

    6. RSRaj Shamani31:50

       Mm.

    7. ANAnanth Narayanan31:50

       -search on Flipkart-

    8. RSRaj Shamani31:51

       Yeah

    9. ANAnanth Narayanan31:51

       ... search on whatever else. So-

    10. RSRaj Shamani31:52

        How do you get that data?

    11. ANAnanth Narayanan31:54

        You... It's, uh, it's an API that you can integrate with. So Amazon allows you to integrate and allows you to get the data. It's completely legitimate. You don't get competitive data. You get search data.

    12. RSRaj Shamani32:01

        How much does it cost? Can somebody building a brand afford that?

    13. ANAnanth Narayanan32:03

        Yes, it's very inexpensive, Nikhil.

    14. RSRaj Shamani32:06

        Mm.

    15. ANAnanth Narayanan32:06

        So if you're starting now... Sorry, I'm forgetting the name. There is third-party software which costs, like, in the hundreds of rupees a month-

    16. RSRaj Shamani32:14

        Right

    17. ANAnanth Narayanan32:14

        ... type thing, right? Maybe thousands.

    18. RSRaj Shamani32:15

        And it will tell you what people are searching for in all these?

    19. ANAnanth Narayanan32:17

        It gets-

    20. SPSpeaker32:17

        Yeah

    21. ANAnanth Narayanan32:17

        ... you know what people are searching for, and that's a very good way-

    22. RSRaj Shamani32:20

        Yeah

    23. ANAnanth Narayanan32:20

        ... to sort of figure out where are the null sets. So what people look for is: where are people searching and not finding anything?

    24. RSRaj Shamani32:25

        Mm.

    25. SPSpeaker32:26

        Mm.

    26. ANAnanth Narayanan32:26

        And that's what you start, start launching, right? So, you know, where, you know, we've, we've launched a bunch of interesting products, right? Um, uh, you know, including vitamin C serums, et cetera, which are not new, but they are searching for a different format of a vitamin C.

    27. RSRaj Shamani32:41

        Yeah.

    28. ANAnanth Narayanan32:42

        They are searching for vitamin C 50ml, and you find that there is not that many that are there in the 50ml. So I think the amount of data that's available, and free, and easy for anybody watching this podcast, is quite stunning, and therefore you can be much, much better, in my view. I don't think it takes away anything from going and seeing, right?

    29. RSRaj Shamani32:59

        Right.

    30. ANAnanth Narayanan32:59

        But you can also use this to make a better decision.
14. 33:53 – 35:52

    Raj Reveals Some Old Marketing Tricks

    1. RSRaj Shamani33:53

       so, so the- because of this background where I was doing this, two things worked really well. One was we went on village and village, where, like, smallest cities, where people thought that nobody will buy premium. And we were massive believers that if you can sell-- like, if you can teach them the value of it-

    2. SPSpeaker34:11

       Yeah

    3. RSRaj Shamani34:11

       ... they'll buy. Obviously, the volumes are gonna be less, but maybe that's worth a shot. Because you don't stand a chance in front of Unilever-

    4. SPSpeaker34:18

       Yeah

    5. RSRaj Shamani34:18

       ... or P&G in the place where they anyway dominate. Okay, that was first. And second was a, a marketing or a branding, or how do I say, framework that I still use, is we say, like, I believe in if I have, let's say, 200 rupees, I would only pick up one person instead of trying to promote it to 200 people. Us time pe ye mante the sab log, that people used to believe that if zyada dikhta hai toh zyada bikta hai, right? This was the basic-

    6. SPSpeaker34:46

       Yeah

    7. RSRaj Shamani34:46

       ... belief in distribution.

    8. SPSpeaker34:47

       Yeah.

    9. RSRaj Shamani34:47

       Like, if you are available, you can, you can sell. So how do I get my brand seen more? So the first thing was, do I have enough money to get seen? Do I have enough marketing brain to get seen? Do I have enough-

    10. SPSpeaker35:00

        Yeah.

    11. RSRaj Shamani35:00

        So n- none of it is that. I was like, "Okay, let's compare me versus Vim," because Vim was our biggest competitor in dishwasher gels. So Vim has more money than me to advertise in India? Yes. Vim has more money than me to advertise in my state? Yes. Vim has more money to advertise than me in my city? Yes. But does he have more money to market to these ten houses in my colony? Probably not. Because if I have only 10,000 rupees, and if I'm only promoting in one colony, I'll be seen in that entire colony versus-

    12. SPSpeaker35:33

        Yeah

    13. RSRaj Shamani35:34

        ... a MNC brand.

    14. ANAnanth Narayanan35:35

        Is that an important insight, if you're starting afresh?

    15. SPSpeaker35:38

        Yeah.

    16. ANAnanth Narayanan35:38

        Micro geography?

    17. RSRaj Shamani35:40

        So in distribution, in, like, physical distribution-

    18. ANAnanth Narayanan35:43

        Mm

    19. RSRaj Shamani35:43

        ... this worked well.

    20. ANAnanth Narayanan35:44

        Mm.

    21. RSRaj Shamani35:44

        Because my whole colony started believing that, "Oh, ye brand kuch naya chalta hoga."

    22. ANAnanth Narayanan35:48

        Mm.

    23. RSRaj Shamani35:48

        Because in the beginning, in distribution, people... So here's what

15. 35:52 – 38:35

    Raj Explains Customer Conversion

    1. RSRaj Shamani35:52

       I believe, like, you know, there's a journey which a customer goes through: convers- uh, conversation, convincing, and conversion, okay? So first is a customer ask himself or herself.

    2. ANAnanth Narayanan36:02

       Mm.

    3. RSRaj Shamani36:03

       They converse with themselves that, "Hey, ye kahi dekha hai," uh, "maybe achcha dikhta hai. Bahot jagah dikh raha hai. Is it happening everywhere?" So that's a conversation going on. There's something.

    4. SPSpeaker36:12

       Right.

    5. RSRaj Shamani36:13

       Then second is convincing. So convincing is, you talk to your friends, you see someone else buy- sell it, buying it, or maybe in distribution-led India, where, where the physical distribution happens, the shopkeeper is a key influencer to convince you. He's like, "Bhabhi ji, ye le jao."

    6. ANAnanth Narayanan36:27

       Mm.

    7. RSRaj Shamani36:27

       And if the co- co- shopkeeper said it, Bhabhi ji will take it. You will take it. Bhaiya will take it, right? [chuckles]

    8. ANAnanth Narayanan36:32

       How do you convince the shopkeeper?

    9. RSRaj Shamani36:34

       Margins, and I'll come to that. [laughing]

    10. SPSpeaker36:36

        [laughing] It's, it's all incentive driven, though.

    11. RSRaj Shamani36:38

        Yeah.

    12. SPSpeaker36:38

        I think, but your point, if you start something new, my sense is, I think being a shark in a pond is always better.

    13. SPSpeaker36:45

        ... than doing something else. I don't know whether that's distribution or a niche, right? If you want to launch an ethnic, I wouldn't go against the big guys.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath36:51

        So you're saying when you're beginning-

    15. SPSpeaker36:53

        When you're beginning-

    16. NKNikhil Kamath36:54

        Be big fish, small pond, not small fish in the sea.

    17. RSRaj Shamani36:56

        Yeah, yeah.

    18. SPSpeaker36:56

        I think so.

    19. RSRaj Shamani36:57

        So that's the same thing which we did.

    20. SPSpeaker36:57

        I mean, my, my read, right?

    21. NKNikhil Kamath36:58

        Do you agree, Kishore?

    22. KBKishore Biyani36:59

        No, I would, uh, I would... Obviously, that is correct, but I would come into a- I will come into the market by another route.

    23. NKNikhil Kamath37:06

        Hmm.

    24. KBKishore Biyani37:07

        So that's what they have done in a way. So you will find a niche and enter into the market-

    25. SPSpeaker37:11

        Yep

    26. KBKishore Biyani37:11

        ... by a different way. That's it.

    27. RSRaj Shamani37:13

        So that's where the second thing which worked for us, because we used no parking boards, digital boards, posters, just in one area. So it looked like-

    28. NKNikhil Kamath37:21

        No parking boards?

    29. RSRaj Shamani37:23

        So in h- in tier two, tier three cities, there's a no parking board, which people put on their bungalows.

    30. KBKishore Biyani37:28

        To advertise.
16. 38:35 – 42:11

    Why Raj left the Family Business for Mumbai

    1. RSRaj Shamani38:35

       So I left. Uh, three months, I was still in home. I started creating content-

    2. SPSpeaker38:39

       Hmm

    3. RSRaj Shamani38:40

       ... uh, at home.

    4. NKNikhil Kamath38:41

       In Indore?

    5. RSRaj Shamani38:41

       In Indore. And in three months, I scaled from... I had, like, 50,000 followers already. I scaled from 50 to 300K because I learned patterns of around top hundred brands in the world, what they were doing right.

    6. NKNikhil Kamath38:52

       Hmm.

    7. RSRaj Shamani38:53

       Learned that pattern, started creating content, reached 300K.

    8. NKNikhil Kamath38:56

       Hmm.

    9. RSRaj Shamani38:56

       Got my first brand deal, came to Bombay, and-

    10. NKNikhil Kamath38:59

        Is there also a learning there for family businesses?

    11. RSRaj Shamani39:03

        Yeah. I mean, from day one, set expectations, right? [chuckles] I don't... Or probably the second one would be, if I was convincing enough, probably, or I would have stayed enough, then things would have gotten sorted. So yeah, coming, like, cutting the story. So I left, came to Bombay, started hustling again, and there was time where the first money which I got from brand deal, I put it in, like, advance rent of three months.

    12. NKNikhil Kamath39:27

        Hmm.

    13. RSRaj Shamani39:27

        And I was... I had, like, a good house-

    14. NKNikhil Kamath39:29

        Hmm

    15. RSRaj Shamani39:29

        ... but I didn't have furniture, so I was sleeping on floor for a month, because I was like, "Brand deal agli ayegi toh paise aayenge."

    16. NKNikhil Kamath39:34

        Explain brand deal. New guy, has 300,000 followers on social media-

    17. RSRaj Shamani39:39

        Yeah

    18. NKNikhil Kamath39:39

        ... moves to Bombay. How much does a brand deal pay?

    19. RSRaj Shamani39:42

        Okay, so I- I'll tell you brand names and who paid me. The first brand deal was ever 70,000 rupees from UpGrad.

    20. NKNikhil Kamath39:48

        Hmm.

    21. RSRaj Shamani39:48

        That was upfront.

    22. NKNikhil Kamath39:49

        Hmm.

    23. SPSpeaker39:49

        Interesting.

    24. RSRaj Shamani39:49

        They paid me. They were like: "Put up a story, tell our courses are there in digital marketing and content."

    25. SPSpeaker39:54

        Yeah.

    26. RSRaj Shamani39:54

        They paid 70,000 rupees. Uh, that 70,000 gave me money to come to Bombay. Then, while in 10 days, I was living in a hotel. During those 10 days, I got a deal from KEI Wires, Pink Insurance, and Amazon sellers.

    27. NKNikhil Kamath40:08

        Hmm.

    28. RSRaj Shamani40:08

        How I got this, I started DM-ing them on Instagram and asked them that, "Hey, I can do this, this, this." I started se- telling them concepts of what I can do with them.

    29. SPSpeaker40:15

        Hmm.

    30. RSRaj Shamani40:16

        Together, these three brands paid me around nine lakhs.
17. 42:11 – 43:30

    Raj’s Content Formula for 400M views

    1. NKNikhil Kamath42:11

       because that, again, is-

    2. SPSpeaker42:12

       Yeah

    3. NKNikhil Kamath42:12

       ... something so many people want to-

    4. RSRaj Shamani42:14

       Okay

    5. NKNikhil Kamath42:14

       ... emulate.

    6. RSRaj Shamani42:15

       Uh, number one, there's a format that I follow, which is called ECG. So, so you create five pieces of content which is evergreen.

    7. SPSpeaker42:23

       Yep.

    8. RSRaj Shamani42:24

       So that people, which is relevant something yesterday, it's gonna relevant today, and that's gonna relevant tomorrow. So what this gonna do is, keep your audience engaged. Ki chalo kuch apne topic mein bana raha hai.

    9. SPSpeaker42:33

       Hmm.

    10. RSRaj Shamani42:33

        Okay. C is controversial.

    11. SPSpeaker42:35

        Okay.

    12. RSRaj Shamani42:36

        So I create three pieces of content which are controversial, which are gonna reach to masses, so that even if it's my niche, I'm gonna talk about controversial stuff.

    13. SPSpeaker42:43

        Yeah.

    14. RSRaj Shamani42:43

        So let's say even if it's business, I'm gonna talk about the businesses which tank, the things which are going down, all of that stuff, because that will get me so many views and new-

    15. SPSpeaker42:51

        Interesting

    16. RSRaj Shamani42:51

        ... audience to pull in.

    17. SPSpeaker42:51

        Yeah.

    18. RSRaj Shamani42:52

        And then two pieces of content are growth.... so growth is only growing my core community. So I believe, so our why of what we do is to create more leaders and help them become personal brands. So I really love, because personal brand has shaped me into who I am, so, like, I wanna do that. So I create two pieces of content for that community to help them grow.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath43:10

        Hmm.

    20. RSRaj Shamani43:11

        Because these are the people who are gonna actually become your promoters.

    21. NKNikhil Kamath43:16

        Hmm.

    22. NKNikhil Kamath43:16

        And this is five, three, and two every month?

    23. RSRaj Shamani43:18

        Five, three, and two. I do... Depending on, like, it can be a month, it can be a week, it can be whatever. I create a content every day.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath43:25

        And, and, Raj, does that help? The frequency helps, like constant-

    25. RSRaj Shamani43:28

        No, there's nothing related to frequency.

18. 43:30 – 46:42

    How to get Viral on Social Media

    1. RSRaj Shamani43:30

       See, at the end of the day, what you really want to do is... There's another one thing, quick hack, is respect the platform if you want pla- platform to respect you. For example, you read annual reports and annual announcements of these platforms.

    2. NKNikhil Kamath43:44

       Yep.

    3. RSRaj Shamani43:44

       Okay, Google, Facebook, what are they focusing on? So Facebook will automatically say, "Hey, this year, "" we are gonna promote short content."

    4. NKNikhil Kamath43:53

       Yeah, yeah.

    5. RSRaj Shamani43:53

       So you know that you're not gonna talk about anything else. Twitter talked about that we wanna increase people's s- uh, average duration per user. So it means that the threads will work, because how will you do it? LinkedIn said that he want to make LinkedIn a fun workplace to be.

    6. NKNikhil Kamath44:10

       Yeah.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath44:11

       Did Twitter really say threads will work if you write a long tweet, the odds are higher?

    8. RSRaj Shamani44:14

       Yeah. That was, I'm telling you, at that time when I did it, I don't know what's going right now.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath44:17

       And what did you say for Instagram?

    10. RSRaj Shamani44:19

        Instagram, Instagram want to promote short, short content. This, I- when I started, I was do- this, and then LinkedIn said that-

    11. NKNikhil Kamath44:25

        Fun environment

    12. RSRaj Shamani44:25

        ... we want to make fun environment workplace to do it. Fun means everybody was doing text, can I do videos, dumps, and posts?

    13. NKNikhil Kamath44:33

        Very interesting insight, yeah.

    14. RSRaj Shamani44:34

        Right. So whatever the platform wants to promote, if you are, if your-

    15. NKNikhil Kamath44:38

        If you are all pointing to that

    16. RSRaj Shamani44:38

        ... interests are aligned with that, they'll push you way faster than anyone else.

    17. NKNikhil Kamath44:42

        Hmm.

    18. RSRaj Shamani44:42

        So that was the second thing which I did, and then bunch of things. The third and the most important thing, which I believe people do wrong in social, is they try to make branded content, performance content, and shareable content together.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath44:59

        Hmm.

    20. RSRaj Shamani45:00

        And it's a losing strategy. So look at brands, right? They would promote, "These are the five things that we stand for." [beep]

    21. NKNikhil Kamath45:08

        Yeah.

    22. RSRaj Shamani45:10

        Like, we don't, right? There... If you want to do it, do it in, like, phases. Like, once in a while you're talking about values, once in a while you're doing it, right? Now, the only thing if you want to grow, you should think about: how can you make people share more or save more? Nothing else matters. Nothing else matters.

    23. NKNikhil Kamath45:25

        Engagement, yeah.

    24. RSRaj Shamani45:26

        The engagement-

    25. NKNikhil Kamath45:27

        Nothing

    26. RSRaj Shamani45:27

        ... likes don't matter, views don't matter-

    27. NKNikhil Kamath45:30

        Only share and save

    28. RSRaj Shamani45:30

        ... comments don't matter. Shares and saves.

    29. NKNikhil Kamath45:32

        And how do you get people to share?

    30. RSRaj Shamani45:34

        So there are different tricks you do it, right? They're based on content. One of the basic contents is, if you're an educational content, right, pick up your target audience. Either you attack your target audience, or you make them feel smart, or you attack them. You break their belief system, so you'll get polarizing audience, but the half of the polarizing audience-
19. 46:42 – 50:25

    Kishore’s Data-Driven Insights on Consumption

    1. NKNikhil Kamath46:42

       everybody knows already, uh, he's been here, and he's, like, the original rock star of this particular podcast. Uh, would you like to tell us, uh, what have you been doing since March, and any insights you're seeing in the market since then? Are you seeing that drop in consumption I was talking about earlier?

    2. KBKishore Biyani47:06

       Yes, we, uh, we are talking to a lot of people and... [clears throat] But I think this year is a, what you call, Adhik Maas. The Diwali is one month later.

    3. NKNikhil Kamath47:16

       Later, correct.

    4. KBKishore Biyani47:17

       So everything is one, one month ahead.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath47:19

       Yep.

    6. KBKishore Biyani47:19

       And unfortunately, every marketer follows the calendar month, and that's a serious issue.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath47:24

       Hmm.

    8. KBKishore Biyani47:24

       In India, you should follow the-

    9. NKNikhil Kamath47:26

       Hmm

    10. KBKishore Biyani47:26

        ... the, the other calendar.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath47:27

        Festival calendar.

    12. KBKishore Biyani47:27

        Festival calendar.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath47:28

        Correct, correct, correct.

    14. KBKishore Biyani47:29

        And that's normally followed-

    15. NKNikhil Kamath47:29

        The season is shorter

    16. KBKishore Biyani47:30

        ... so that's why I think there will be a little bit of mismatch. Secondly, I think inflation might be playing [clears throat] a little bit here and there. And-

    17. NKNikhil Kamath47:38

        Do you think interest rates have gone to that point where they've started seriously hitting consumption?

    18. KBKishore Biyani47:43

        I, I think the data of FMCG which came in for August was quite disappointing.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath47:49

        Was disappointing.

    20. NKNikhil Kamath47:49

        Hmm.

    21. KBKishore Biyani47:50

        It was showing 11 month, uh, 11% lower than last month, and even, uh, year to year it was around 12, 13% lower.

    22. NKNikhil Kamath47:56

        Yes, that's right.

    23. NKNikhil Kamath47:56

        I think that metric is true across the board.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath47:58

        Yeah.

    25. KBKishore Biyani47:59

        Hmm.

    26. NKNikhil Kamath47:59

        Me and Ananth were at a dinner, and I was asking one payment gateway guy, one electric vehicle guy, I was asking Ananth in fashion. Everybody offline seems to be saying consumption has fallen off in the last two months. Uh, I don't know how accurate these numbers are, but Amazon India grew by just about 5% this year. Flipkart, seven, eight percent based on higher end electronics and premiumization, which seems to be growing. But everything seems to be slowing down. Uh, and I was trying to figure out, is that it? Like, festivals, is there some festivals and interest rate?

    27. KBKishore Biyani48:36

        I always believe there are multiple reasons for anything to happen. There are multi- like, five elements make the planet, I think there are multiple elements which creates a market or makes the market go lower. So there are multiple. I think interest rate is one of the things. Festival calendar is another thing. Thirdly, there is a fat- uh, there was a f- little bit of a fatigue also.

    28. NKNikhil Kamath48:53

        Hmm.

    29. KBKishore Biyani48:54

        Because after COVID, the consumption came about, and then the fatigue factor also set in. I personally believe, uh, the inflation has played-... the j- the, uh, I think we are getting formalized as the economy, and formal economy is more expensive than a informal economy.

    30. ANAnanth Narayanan49:09

        Hmm.
20. 50:25 – 52:33

    Emerging Consumption Trends: Where is the Opportunity?

    1. KBKishore Biyani50:25

       and every mobile became a item of fashion, and which used to change every six months.

    2. ANAnanth Narayanan50:31

       Yeah.

    3. KBKishore Biyani50:32

       And that time, the money, the budget of the com- the consumer went away from fashion to mobile phone.

    4. ANAnanth Narayanan50:37

       Correct.

    5. KBKishore Biyani50:37

       So there are so many new interests which has developed.

    6. ANAnanth Narayanan50:40

       No, and also, for example, travelers come back.

    7. KBKishore Biyani50:41

       Yeah, travel-

    8. ANAnanth Narayanan50:42

       So I think India consumption, in my mind, people are spending on experiences.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath50:45

       Uh, in fact, even this year I was reading a stat that live shows, live concerts, and clubs-

    10. KBKishore Biyani50:49

        Growing the fastest

    11. NKNikhil Kamath50:51

        ... have gone-

    12. KBKishore Biyani50:51

        Growing the fastest

    13. NKNikhil Kamath50:51

        ... are growing really, really fast.

    14. KBKishore Biyani50:52

        Yeah, yeah.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath50:53

        So what, what-

    16. KBKishore Biyani50:53

        People are spending

    17. NKNikhil Kamath50:54

        ... what FMCG product would you add in the experience category?

    18. KBKishore Biyani50:58

        I think not experience, but look at the restaurants business. A lot of new restaurants, a lot of new experiences coming up, and everything is getting, uh, adopted in a way. So there are new categories which are emerging.

    19. ANAnanth Narayanan51:08

        I think health as a focus has been interesting. I mean, you know, for us, one interesting thing is we have a peanut butter brand called MyFitness.

    20. KBKishore Biyani51:15

        [laughs]

    21. ANAnanth Narayanan51:15

        I mean, I didn't think that peanut butter was that large a category, but it's growing like crazy. Because what's happening is people actually want to... The mother feeding the jam sandwich-

    22. KBKishore Biyani51:25

        Hmm

    23. ANAnanth Narayanan51:25

        ... is now saying, "I want to do something healthier for the child." The vegetarian who's working out-

    24. KBKishore Biyani51:30

        Hmm

    25. ANAnanth Narayanan51:30

        ... by the way, wants to sort of have some protein.

    26. KBKishore Biyani51:33

        Protein.

    27. ANAnanth Narayanan51:33

        So it's interesting. So there's consumption shifting into more healthy eating, for example, right? And that, by the way, there's no growth slowdown, right? So I think your point of budget getting re-split-

    28. KBKishore Biyani51:42

        Hmm

    29. ANAnanth Narayanan51:43

        ... into various other parts of consumption, I think is probably one of the biggest reasons.

    30. KBKishore Biyani51:47

        Also there, yeah.
21. 52:33 – 1:03:16

    India's Consumption Demographic: A Breakdown

    1. NKNikhil Kamath52:33

       just so that people can learn from it?

    2. KBKishore Biyani52:34

       No, I was presenting something which was saying that, uh, that 30, three, uh, 30 million, uh, what do you call, three crore households in this country-

    3. ANAnanth Narayanan52:43

       Okay

    4. KBKishore Biyani52:44

       ... are basically contributing to 60% of India's consumption. And, uh, I was talking about value-added consumption-

    5. ANAnanth Narayanan52:52

       Yeah

    6. KBKishore Biyani52:52

       ... and in terms of value.

    7. ANAnanth Narayanan52:54

       Yeah.

    8. KBKishore Biyani52:54

       And within that three crore or 30 million families-

    9. ANAnanth Narayanan52:57

       Yeah

    10. KBKishore Biyani52:58

        ... there is a Singapore, which is, let's say-

    11. ANAnanth Narayanan53:01

        Yeah

    12. KBKishore Biyani53:01

        ... 60 lakh people-

    13. ANAnanth Narayanan53:02

        Yeah

    14. KBKishore Biyani53:02

        ... they are exactly consuming like that-

    15. ANAnanth Narayanan53:03

        Right

    16. KBKishore Biyani53:03

        ... they are living like that.

    17. ANAnanth Narayanan53:04

        Yeah.

    18. KBKishore Biyani53:05

        Then there is, uh, a Poland, which is another two and a half, three crore people.

    19. ANAnanth Narayanan53:09

        Interesting, yeah.

    20. KBKishore Biyani53:10

        Very interest... Similar GDP, similar per capita.

    21. ANAnanth Narayanan53:12

        Yep.

    22. KBKishore Biyani53:13

        And then there is Mexico, which is around seven, eight crore people.

    23. NKNikhil Kamath53:17

        You want to talk about India 1, India 2, the distinction?

    24. KBKishore Biyani53:20

        No, that theory we did speak about last time also.

    25. NKNikhil Kamath53:23

        Hmm.

    26. KBKishore Biyani53:24

        And, uh-

    27. NKNikhil Kamath53:24

        But I think this time you've gone, like, a little bit in depth, right?

    28. KBKishore Biyani53:27

        Yeah, we've gone quite a lot in depth, and I believe, uh, that the rest of India-

    29. NKNikhil Kamath53:32

        Hmm

    30. KBKishore Biyani53:32

        ... which is, uh, the balance India, which is Singapore, Poland, and Mexico-
22. 1:03:16 – 1:08:51

    Tricks Luxury Brands Are Using

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:16

       tell you, in the last three, four years-

    2. KBKishore Biyani1:03:18

       Yeah

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:18

       ... I've completely stopped buying from ultra-luxury brands, like Hermès and LV and all that, because I feel they play you. Their entire marketing strategy seems to be to offend and get some kind of a reaction out of you, and then buy from them.

    4. ANAnanth Narayanan1:03:36

       Right.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:37

       Like, you know, they'll tell you-

    6. KBKishore Biyani1:03:38

       He's... Nikhil has achieved nirvana. [laughing]

    7. ANAnanth Narayanan1:03:41

       Got it. No more of the-

    8. KBKishore Biyani1:03:43

       [laughing]

    9. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:44

       You know, you know, that is the-

    10. ANAnanth Narayanan1:03:44

        Top of the hierarchy. [chuckles]

    11. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:45

        That is the most offensive thing.

    12. ANAnanth Narayanan1:03:47

        Yeah.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:47

        Like, to go to a shop where they're marking up a product one is to a thousand times-

    14. ANAnanth Narayanan1:03:52

        Yeah, yeah

    15. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:52

        ... and then saying, "You can't buy this product until you build a relationship with us-

    16. ANAnanth Narayanan1:03:57

        Get on a list. Build a relationship, yeah, yeah

    17. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:58

        ... get on a list," do all of these hoops that you have to jump through. It's not because they can't manufacture more of that. They can go make a million of those bags-

    18. ANAnanth Narayanan1:04:06

        Of course

    19. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:06

        ... and stuff.

    20. ANAnanth Narayanan1:04:06

        Of course.

    21. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:07

        But that strategy of being arrogant has worked so well for them that I think people have to be cognizant to that and, you know, kind of like...

    22. KBKishore Biyani1:04:16

        So, Nikhil, in early days-

    23. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:18

        Mm

    24. KBKishore Biyani1:04:18

        ... like, Big Bazaar was created on three things-

    25. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:20

        Mm

    26. KBKishore Biyani1:04:20

        ... greed, fear, and, uh, we used to call it, uh, uh, altruism, to a certain extent. The brand can be built on this. Greed is that it is available at a lower price. Fear is that it won't be available after a while.

    27. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:34

        Yeah.

    28. ANAnanth Narayanan1:04:34

        Yeah.

    29. KBKishore Biyani1:04:34

        And secondly, all the brands are built on appealing to your ego and vanity, yeah.

    30. ANAnanth Narayanan1:04:38

        Mm.
23. 1:08:51 – 1:10:28

    BNPL & Integration

    1. ANAnanth Narayanan1:08:51

       called BNPL, buy now, pay later.

    2. RSRaj Shamani1:08:52

       Yeah.

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:08:52

       Mm.

    4. ANAnanth Narayanan1:08:53

       BNPL is among the fastest growing in all e-commerce firms.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:08:55

       Is that important?

    6. RSRaj Shamani1:08:56

       Oh, yes.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:08:56

       Like, if you're building a brand from zero to one-

    8. NKNikhil Kamath1:08:59

       Yeah.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath1:08:59

       If you just figured out a niche-

    10. NKNikhil Kamath1:09:01

        Yeah

    11. NKNikhil Kamath1:09:01

        ... you started building a-

    12. NKNikhil Kamath1:09:02

        Yeah

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:09:02

        ... consumer brand there.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath1:09:03

        Yeah.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath1:09:04

        How do you integrate BNPL? You're a new company, you're starting at zero.

    16. ANAnanth Narayanan1:09:08

        Uh, I think, by the way, BNPL gets automatically integrated-

    17. RSRaj Shamani1:09:11

        Yeah

    18. ANAnanth Narayanan1:09:11

        ... as you think about e-commerce or even your own website, because all of them-

    19. NKNikhil Kamath1:09:14

        Once your platform has scaled, then do people come and approach you, or from the very beginning?

    20. RSRaj Shamani1:09:18

        You can do that from day one.

    21. ANAnanth Narayanan1:09:19

        From day zero, right. I think, there's-

    22. NKNikhil Kamath1:09:21

        But you do that with your credit card company or-

    23. RSRaj Shamani1:09:23

        Also

    24. NKNikhil Kamath1:09:23

        ... your payment gateway?

    25. ANAnanth Narayanan1:09:24

        You can do also, you know, you can do with your payment gateway.

    26. RSRaj Shamani1:09:26

        Like, these are the people that do that.

    27. ANAnanth Narayanan1:09:27

        You know, there are... So once you have a payment gateway and some data, there are multiple firms that allow you, uh, buy now, pay later facilities.

    28. NKNikhil Kamath1:09:34

        Mm.

    29. ANAnanth Narayanan1:09:34

        Obviously, by the way, the Flipkarts, the Amazons of the world, all have inbuilt programs that are quite large.

    30. NKNikhil Kamath1:09:39

        Mm-hmm.
24. 1:10:28 – 1:16:37

    Quiet Luxury & Signaling: The Correlation

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:10:28

       that show is there, no?

    2. RSRaj Shamani1:10:29

       I think quiet luxury-

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:10:30

       Yeah

    4. RSRaj Shamani1:10:30

       ... in India is not yet a big of a concept.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:10:32

       No, Dhara, Dhara Rangan. [chuckles]

    6. RSRaj Shamani1:10:33

       There's like Dhara Rangan. [chuckles]

    7. ANAnanth Narayanan1:10:35

       But it will be a TG, which is like-

    8. NKNikhil Kamath1:10:36

       Very, very small TG

    9. ANAnanth Narayanan1:10:38

       ... minuscule, right? I mean-

    10. NKNikhil Kamath1:10:38

        No, but it's still interesting if it's working.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath1:10:40

        Conscious capitalism?

    12. ANAnanth Narayanan1:10:42

        Yeah, so I, I would say, Nikhil, firstly, by the way, my sense is, um, uh, I, I think the market in India for... I think we're not yet evolved to a stage of restrained capitalism, where you don't want to actually demonstrate that you bought something expensive.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:10:56

        Yeah.

    14. ANAnanth Narayanan1:10:56

        I think that market is very, very, very small.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath1:10:58

        But I think the-

    16. ANAnanth Narayanan1:10:59

        Right, um-

    17. NKNikhil Kamath1:10:59

        ... people who have arrived in life, and they don't need to prove anything to anybody, can easily move there.

    18. NKNikhil Kamath1:11:04

        But then why are they spending so much? Like, my point, my question is, see, I buy-

    19. ANAnanth Narayanan1:11:08

        No, but for example, do you think a Patek is quite luxury? I'm just... You know, in my mind, you know, would that be?

    20. NKNikhil Kamath1:11:13

        Depends on which-

    21. ANAnanth Narayanan1:11:13

        Because you can't see it, right?

    22. NKNikhil Kamath1:11:15

        Depends on which model of Patek.

    23. ANAnanth Narayanan1:11:16

        No, if you don't buy a complication, you buy, like, a regular one.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath1:11:18

        If you buy, like, a Nautilus or something-

    25. ANAnanth Narayanan1:11:20

        Yeah

    26. NKNikhil Kamath1:11:20

        ... it is not quiet luxury, because it's evidently an expensive watch that a lot of people know about. If you buy a Patek Constellation-

    27. ANAnanth Narayanan1:11:28

        Right

    28. NKNikhil Kamath1:11:28

        ... or a Grandmaster Chime or something.

    29. ANAnanth Narayanan1:11:31

        Correct. Right.

    30. NKNikhil Kamath1:11:31

        But I think regardless of that, I'm trying to figure out why somebody is paying $1,000 to buy a T-shirt, which looks like a $100 T-shirt-
25. 1:16:37 – 1:24:42

    Content & Community : Present & Future

    1. ANAnanth Narayanan1:16:37

       that-

    2. SPSpeaker1:16:37

       Yeah.

    3. RSRaj Shamani1:16:37

       Explain, elaborate on that.

    4. ANAnanth Narayanan1:16:38

       Yeah. So, uh, at least in the online world, I, again, right, I think my, my view is, look, uh, I mean, there are a ton of influencers, and I think, no- there's two sitting here. Uh, but I'm saying it is, uh, after a point, it's not about some influencer coming and telling you. It is about what your friends and your community that you trust sort of feel. I'll give you an example. We have a, again, gardening, like random, right? But gardening is very community-based-

    5. RSRaj Shamani1:17:06

       Yeah

    6. ANAnanth Narayanan1:17:06

       ... because you exchange tips, you, you think about why plants die, and, you know, what do you need to do, and so on, right? And so having influencer-based marketing sometimes may or may not work.

    7. RSRaj Shamani1:17:17

       Yeah.

    8. ANAnanth Narayanan1:17:18

       But actually, if you have a closed Facebook group, and there are many, many, many Facebook, like Insta groups, et cetera, where people genuinely actually talk about con- about what their problems are, and in those, if you start to infiltrate and say, the brand comes organically, that's a very different way of building a brand.

    9. RSRaj Shamani1:17:35

       True.

    10. ANAnanth Narayanan1:17:35

        Right? And I think it's a very organic, always-on way of building a brand. And I think there are interesting involved categories where this community-based brand building is starting to be quite interesting, right? And I think it's very sustainable. It's less expensive, it takes longer to build, but it's much more sustainable. This-

    11. RSRaj Shamani1:17:51

        I'll add on to that. That's exactly what we're trying to-

    12. SPSpeaker1:17:53

        Mm

    13. RSRaj Shamani1:17:53

        ... accomplish with House of X, right?

    14. SPSpeaker1:17:55

        Mm.

    15. RSRaj Shamani1:17:55

        That's bang on.

    16. SPSpeaker1:17:55

        Mm.

    17. RSRaj Shamani1:17:56

        We're not doing influencer-led marketing. We do attention and community-led mar- marketing.

    18. ANAnanth Narayanan1:18:00

        Yeah.

    19. RSRaj Shamani1:18:01

        Because here's what I believe in: content builds community, community brings culture-

    20. ANAnanth Narayanan1:18:06

        Yeah

    21. RSRaj Shamani1:18:06

        ... and culture changes the way you buy, right? That's exactly the pattern that you follow.

    22. SPSpeaker1:18:11

        Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

    23. RSRaj Shamani1:18:11

        So that's why you need a content person who can create such a content on such a niche-

    24. ANAnanth Narayanan1:18:16

        Yeah

    25. RSRaj Shamani1:18:16

        ... who can create a community around it.

    26. SPSpeaker1:18:18

        How important is it for somebody starting brand 0 to 1, to be able to create content and create community?

    27. RSRaj Shamani1:18:27

        I think that's the way forward, and I'll tell you a logical reason behind it. The the biggest reason what I feel is, point of sale, every time the majority of influence happens on point of sale.

    28. SPSpeaker1:18:40

        Okay.

    29. RSRaj Shamani1:18:40

        There's obviously different parts-

    30. SPSpeaker1:18:41

        Yeah
26. 1:24:42 – 1:30:19

    Scaling from 0 to 20 Crores: Ananth & Kishore's Clash

    1. ANAnanth Narayanan1:24:42

       think the question was starting, um, just getting started, right?

    2. RSRaj Shamani1:24:45

       Yeah.

    3. ANAnanth Narayanan1:24:45

       And I think my perspective comes from sort of talking to a bunch of entrepreneurs who have sort of built businesses, call it between 0 and 25, 30 crores, were the people that I initially spoke to, to try and get there. I think there are some patterns on what you need to do. Um, and I think the breakpoints for me are 0 to 20, 20 to 100, 100 to 500, and 500 and above, right, in terms of net revenue, we're talking about.

    4. NKNikhil Kamath1:25:09

       You're talking about crores.

    5. ANAnanth Narayanan1:25:10

       Crores.

    6. NKNikhil Kamath1:25:11

       Mm.

    7. ANAnanth Narayanan1:25:11

       So in the first 0 to 20 crores, in my mind, I think it is all product-driven, word-of-mouth driven, community that we talked about, and content-driven, but it is not performance marketing-driven. It... You should have great reviews, you should have great repeat rates, you should have great social media following, you should be part of a community, right? I think if you can build it that way, you're building it in a very healthy manner.... the, so the product quality is probably the most important thing in my mind to get right, followed by content and community, followed by distribution strategy. I think you talked about distribution strategy. I think from the 0 to 20 crores, if you can keep an 80/20%, where 80% is e-commerce platforms and 20% is D2C, it's a great mix. Because then you have enough consumer data, but you also have reach, right? That you can actually get to. So my theory is, if you can get the first 20 crores this way, it's like a very healthy way to grow if you're going to start a brand.

    8. KBKishore Biyani1:26:13

       But I don't agree at one place, 80% marketplace. Marketplace is very difficult to build a brand and talk about the brand.

    9. ANAnanth Narayanan1:26:19

       Mm, I, yes-

    10. KBKishore Biyani1:26:20

        You get the top line, yes.

    11. ANAnanth Narayanan1:26:20

        No, but yes and no. I think it depends on what the platform is. I think, for example, if you can actually take part in a program within an Amazon or a Myntra, I think you can actually get to showcase it. I'm saying, look-

    12. KBKishore Biyani1:26:34

        Not so easy

    13. ANAnanth Narayanan1:26:35

        ... it's the easiest way to-- I, I think there are ways to grow, Kishore, in my view. I think, for example, if you are a D2C star program, and you can actually sort out an interesting deal in, uh, Myntra, it's a great way to grow because you have a brand page. You are able to represent it, right?

    14. KBKishore Biyani1:26:51

        But they... You are representing a brand in the way they want you to represent. That's the challenge.

    15. ANAnanth Narayanan1:26:55

        Uh, yes, I think within some constraints, for sure.

    16. KBKishore Biyani1:26:58

        Yeah.

    17. ANAnanth Narayanan1:26:58

        But I still think, by the way, it gives you... See, for me, I'm not trying to fully do brand building yet. I'm trying to make sure there's product-market fit and make sure that there's-- See, if you're a new person starting off, what do you need? You need to, you need to sort of get to some scale.

    18. KBKishore Biyani1:27:15

        Mm-hmm.

    19. ANAnanth Narayanan1:27:16

        If you need external funding, you need to be able to get external funding, and you need to start having enough runway for you to be able to build from the 20 to 100, right? So for me, it is very practically, right, if you focus 100% on D2C, for example, I think you can represent the brand, but you'll end up bleeding money. Which means, by the way, you'll have to raise money much sooner, right? Um-

    20. KBKishore Biyani1:27:37

        I personally believe a little bit differently. I believe if the brand is not right, the packaging is not right, the color is not right... There are color codes, there is brand codes for everything.

    21. ANAnanth Narayanan1:27:46

        Yes.

    22. KBKishore Biyani1:27:47

        And if you don't get it right, nothing will go right.

    23. ANAnanth Narayanan1:27:49

        I, by the way, think, Kishore, the opposite. I think there are lots of bad brands that get sold through performance marketing.

    24. KBKishore Biyani1:27:55

        No, it's not about-

    25. ANAnanth Narayanan1:27:56

        Uh, uh, just give me one minute, right? Just to complete this, right? So I can tell you fifty brands in Myntra that basically grew on subsidy, right? Which is either you threw a discount at it or you threw a performance marketing at it, but it can't sustain beyond a certain number because repeats don't come.

    26. KBKishore Biyani1:28:13

        I know.

    27. ANAnanth Narayanan1:28:13

        Right? So I'm saying the first-

    28. KBKishore Biyani1:28:15

        That's-

    29. ANAnanth Narayanan1:28:15

        ... 20 crores may get the consumer right, right?

    30. KBKishore Biyani1:28:16

        I'm not talking crore. I'm talking overall, if you don't get the brand right-
27. 1:30:19 – 1:35:14

    Western Influence & Brand Names

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:30:19

       brands in India-

    2. ANAnanth Narayanan1:30:20

       Yeah

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:30:21

       ... from Louis Philippe to-

    4. ANAnanth Narayanan1:30:22

       Yeah

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:30:22

       ... Peter England-

    6. ANAnanth Narayanan1:30:24

       Sure

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:30:24

       ... to a certain extent, Jockey.

    8. ANAnanth Narayanan1:30:26

       Yeah.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath1:30:28

       Jockey might be a franchisee, but the others-

    10. ANAnanth Narayanan1:30:30

        Yeah

    11. NKNikhil Kamath1:30:31

        ... we put foreign models-

    12. KBKishore Biyani1:30:33

        Yeah

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:30:34

        ... on a brand that has nothing to do with anything outside of India.

    14. ANAnanth Narayanan1:30:37

        Yeah.

    15. KBKishore Biyani1:30:37

        Mm.

    16. NKNikhil Kamath1:30:38

        And call them names like, you know, like John whatever, and Peter whatever-

    17. ANAnanth Narayanan1:30:41

        Yes

    18. NKNikhil Kamath1:30:41

        ... and whatever.

    19. ANAnanth Narayanan1:30:42

        Yes.

    20. NKNikhil Kamath1:30:43

        It worked for a long time.

    21. ANAnanth Narayanan1:30:45

        Yeah.

    22. NKNikhil Kamath1:30:45

        Will it work?

    23. ANAnanth Narayanan1:30:46

        I don't think so. I mean, I think it, uh... So for example, we have a brand called Karigiri, and it's working just as well, and it's for sarees.

    24. KBKishore Biyani1:30:53

        But that's an ethnic product.

    25. ANAnanth Narayanan1:30:54

        Ethnic brand.

    26. KBKishore Biyani1:30:54

        Yeah.

    27. ANAnanth Narayanan1:30:55

        Um, the, um, you know, if you can find the right name, that actually... See, you're wearing western wear, some level. Why is it that a Peter England or an Allen Solly has some appeal, right? It connotes of western wear. I mean, so at some level, you know, I agree with you, Kishore, right? Saying ethnic wear is ethnic, but I'm saying western wear is western, right? I mean, at some level, the reverse is also true, right? So, but your... I, I have an interesting anecdote on the, uh, color of the models. So I think it's changing. But one of the things, for example, if you go to a Myntra, you find that everybody is fair-skinned.

    28. NKNikhil Kamath1:31:35

        White.

    29. ANAnanth Narayanan1:31:35

        Right, white, to do this. And we ran an experiment where you actually look at click-through rates.... long time ago, and you find that the click-through rates are actually different. So purely economically, the click-through rates on performance marketing were higher. Now, I think that-

    30. NKNikhil Kamath1:31:50

        Hmm
28. 1:35:14 – 1:50:36

    Hacks for Branding, Growth Hacking & E-commerce

    1. ANAnanth Narayanan1:35:14

       different framing of this, right? If I want to start a brand today, I don't know, by the way, unless there's something reasonably unique about the T-shirt brand with some meaning that I want to start, whether I would start a T-shirt brand.

    2. NKNikhil Kamath1:35:24

       Really good quality.

    3. ANAnanth Narayanan1:35:25

       Yeah, uh, it's too generic and too general, right? I think so, the, the first thing to do is, you know, how crowded is the space? How large is the space, and do I have a unique value proposition? So, for example, I won't launch one more ethnic brand-

    4. NKNikhil Kamath1:35:39

       How does someone learn that?

    5. ANAnanth Narayanan1:35:40

       -or one more T-shirt brand.

    6. NKNikhil Kamath1:35:40

       How does someone learn that? If I'm thinking of T-shirt-

    7. ANAnanth Narayanan1:35:43

       Yeah

    8. NKNikhil Kamath1:35:43

       ... how do I learn how crowded is the space?

    9. ANAnanth Narayanan1:35:46

       I think the easiest way, actually, and the most practical way, is to go search for T-shirts on Myntra and find how many choices and how many brands you have. It's a representation of the market-

    10. NKNikhil Kamath1:35:54

        You'll have that for every category.

    11. ANAnanth Narayanan1:35:54

        And where price points... You have it for a lot of categories, but I'm saying, you know, some categories are low ASP and huge variety.

    12. NKNikhil Kamath1:36:02

        What is ASP?

    13. ANAnanth Narayanan1:36:03

        Uh, average selling price.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath1:36:04

        Hmm.

    15. ANAnanth Narayanan1:36:05

        Right? So low ASP products with high, high competition is not something that I would go and do a brand in. See, if you want to launch something, right? So the first, you know, 20, the question is focus. We spoke about this earlier also.

    16. NKNikhil Kamath1:36:18

        Hmm.

    17. ANAnanth Narayanan1:36:19

        Focus on something which is a niche. Be a shark in a pond, right? For the, for this, so that you can actually differentiate in some meaningful manner, at least for the first 20 crores.

    18. NKNikhil Kamath1:36:29

        Yep.

    19. ANAnanth Narayanan1:36:29

        Right? Just to complete my framing, since it's taking a little bit of time, the 20 to 100 crore, in my mind, the skill, especially if you're doing it online, has to be around most efficient performance marketing, most efficient use of community for brand building, so that you don't spend a lot of money on brand building, but you build it organically.

    20. NKNikhil Kamath1:36:46

        How would you do that?

    21. ANAnanth Narayanan1:36:48

        The more content that gets, which trans- which travels, and more people that get eyeballs without you paying Google tax and Facebook tax.

    22. NKNikhil Kamath1:36:55

        How do you do that?

    23. ANAnanth Narayanan1:36:56

        It's viral content. It's around continuously putting out content. It's around creating a community. It's around answering questions.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath1:37:01

        Is that the key then today? To build a brand, is it content and community?

    25. ANAnanth Narayanan1:37:04

        I don't-

    26. NKNikhil Kamath1:37:04

        Not just for influencer-led brand, but all brands.

    27. ANAnanth Narayanan1:37:06

        Mm, I think it is a large part of it, but it is not the only part of it. I think it's a big part of brand building between 20 and 100 crores.

    28. NKNikhil Kamath1:37:14

        Hmm.

    29. ANAnanth Narayanan1:37:14

        Because it's a less... It's a more... So again, I'll give you an example. For us, we do a lot of our brand building through MensXP and iDiva.

    30. ANAnanth Narayanan1:37:21

        Yeah.
29. 1:50:36 – 1:52:42

    Role of Keywords & Performance Marketing

    1. ANAnanth Narayanan1:50:36

       I think literally, by the way, um, again, I, I go back to the very basic thing. Amazon, actually, you can go and find out long-tail key search words.

    2. RSRaj Shamani1:50:46

       Yeah.

    3. ANAnanth Narayanan1:50:46

       You can find out where there is null sets. You can say, "By the way, in the last month, what are the search results that led to zero?" And you find all of them, and you stack rank them by volume.

    4. RSRaj Shamani1:50:57

       Mm.

    5. ANAnanth Narayanan1:50:57

       And then you say, "That's what I want to go do." I'm saying this, I think unfortunately- I mean, so since, since this is a podcast where people want to... I think there's so much of data out there. If you actually make a little bit of effort, you can actually make dramatically better judgment calls than 90% of the population, right? And this growth hacking applies to Google and Facebook the most. So if you start D2C, right, the real question there is: how do you not pay as much Google and Facebook tax? And there, there's an entire science behind it, right? How do you actually think about SEO? How do you think about the structure of your website? How do you think about what keywords to bid on? How do you-

    6. NKNikhil Kamath1:51:29

       But that's beyond, you're saying 25 to 100, the next phase.

    7. ANAnanth Narayanan1:51:32

       That's the 20 to 100.

    8. NKNikhil Kamath1:51:33

       Mm.

    9. ANAnanth Narayanan1:51:34

       So 0 to 20, I know we had a slight difference, but not dramatic, but my sense is great product, initial brand value proposition, 80% marketplace, 20% D2C.

    10. NKNikhil Kamath1:51:44

        Mm.

    11. ANAnanth Narayanan1:51:45

        20 to 100 crores, by the way, continue to crack something that's unique. It can be, I think, to Raj's point, it can be sourcing, it can be design, it can be whatever. And crack performance marketing, whether it's Google, Facebook, Amazon, content, whatever it is, build something around it.

    12. NKNikhil Kamath1:52:01

        Mm.

    13. ANAnanth Narayanan1:52:02

        Hundred and above, to 500, you have to figure out how to make offline work. This is a different skill set for a lot of people who have started it this way. You have to figure out and really make sure that the product goes from push to pull. What do I mean by push to pull? What is the percentage of organic sales versus what is the percentage of adrenaline sales, which is performance marketing? That percent from 20 to 100, maybe call it 50/50, performance and organic. Hundred-plus, that performance-based sales should come down to 30%. Because if it doesn't, 30, 40%, it doesn't... It just, the cost of it keeps going up and up and up and up and up, right? In the Amazons of the world.

    14. RSRaj Shamani1:52:41

        You know, the one

30. 1:52:42 – 1:55:07

    Navigating Category Selection

    1. RSRaj Shamani1:52:42

       interesting thing how you can build a brand is also, uh, that used to happen in offline, at least. You look at categories which are super unorganized, and what are getting organized.

    2. ANAnanth Narayanan1:52:53

       Yeah.

    3. RSRaj Shamani1:52:53

       So, for example, atta.

    4. ANAnanth Narayanan1:52:55

       Yeah.

    5. RSRaj Shamani1:52:55

       So I read, this is again 2013, '14, I read that 94% India still buys chakki atta. That was 2013.

    6. NKNikhil Kamath1:53:02

       Mm.

    7. ANAnanth Narayanan1:53:02

       Yeah.

    8. RSRaj Shamani1:53:02

       I was like, okay, because 94% is still or-unorganized, the way it's, like, not... It is going away from cities, probably there's gonna be a time where this won't happen, and that's why there's an opportunity to build, let's say, an atta brand.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath1:53:16

       Makes sense. Any opportunity you are seeing now?

    10. RSRaj Shamani1:53:18

        Unorganized to organized? Uh-

    11. NKNikhil Kamath1:53:20

        Happening right now.

    12. RSRaj Shamani1:53:21

        I think toilet, specifically, I see as an opportunity.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:53:24

        Give me an example.

    14. RSRaj Shamani1:53:25

        Like-

    15. ANAnanth Narayanan1:53:26

        Cleaners and so on?

    16. RSRaj Shamani1:53:26

        ... toilet cleaners, pre-sprays, post-sprays-

    17. ANAnanth Narayanan1:53:29

        Yeah

    18. RSRaj Shamani1:53:30

        ... uh, you know, seat sprays. I don't know, I don't know what product. I've not spent enough time.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath1:53:34

        Like that Zerodha is doing a lot of this, so be safe.

    20. ANAnanth Narayanan1:53:37

        Yeah, yeah.

    21. RSRaj Shamani1:53:37

        I've not spent enough time to understand what products, but I think toilet as a category is popping up, because a lot of people now just don't want their house to smell good, but also their toilets to smell good.

    22. ANAnanth Narayanan1:53:48

        I think pets is the other big one in my mind.

    23. RSRaj Shamani1:53:49

        Yeah.

    24. ANAnanth Narayanan1:53:50

        It's immediate, and people are spending-

    25. NKNikhil Kamath1:53:51

        Cocoa for it?

    26. ANAnanth Narayanan1:53:52

        Yeah, so I mean, look, uh-

    27. NKNikhil Kamath1:53:53

        There's one new store which has opened here, which is huge.

    28. ANAnanth Narayanan1:53:55

        Heads Up or Tails.

    29. RSRaj Shamani1:53:56

        Heads Up or Tails.

    30. ANAnanth Narayanan1:53:56

        Yeah, Heads Up or Tails. So I think pets-
31. 1:55:07 – 1:59:49

    Art of Storytelling in Brand Names

    1. KBKishore Biyani1:55:07

       who's a brand authority in a way, and, uh, his daughter started a brand, and she started exactly with a T-shirt.

    2. NKNikhil Kamath1:55:14

       Mm.

    3. ANAnanth Narayanan1:55:14

       Mm.

    4. KBKishore Biyani1:55:14

       And she named her brand Creatures of, Creatures of Habit. In the first instance, I didn't understand much, and it was a D2C brand, and I think they are, they are now profitable.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:55:27

       What worked?

    6. KBKishore Biyani1:55:29

       I think the brand, the product.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:55:31

       But the name worked for a particular reason, Creatures of Habit?

    8. KBKishore Biyani1:55:34

       I think, I think the D2C world is accepting a little bit of a odd name.

    9. RSRaj Shamani1:55:38

       Story.

    10. KBKishore Biyani1:55:39

        A story. It's telling a story.

    11. RSRaj Shamani1:55:41

        Yeah. By the way, new research-

    12. KBKishore Biyani1:55:42

        I-

    13. RSRaj Shamani1:55:43

        ... uh, there is-

    14. ANAnanth Narayanan1:55:44

        Yeah

    15. RSRaj Shamani1:55:44

        ... just adding to this, nine out of, uh, 10 Gen Zs believe in advertising.

    16. KBKishore Biyani1:55:50

        Yeah.

    17. RSRaj Shamani1:55:51

        M- maybe different ways-

    18. KBKishore Biyani1:55:52

        Yeah

    19. RSRaj Shamani1:55:52

        ... different sorts, but if you tell them that you're advertising, people are receptive to see that advertise and buy something on that.

    20. KBKishore Biyani1:55:59

        So you can-

    21. RSRaj Shamani1:55:59

        There's no level of mistrust.

    22. KBKishore Biyani1:56:00

        So you can name your brand, uh, anything. You can name your brand, uh, Nikhil also, I think.

    23. ANAnanth Narayanan1:56:04

        Yeah.

    24. KBKishore Biyani1:56:04

        It- and we can create a story around the word Nikhil, and-

    25. ANAnanth Narayanan1:56:07

        Yeah, see, that's what I was gonna say. [chuckles]

    26. NKNikhil Kamath1:56:08

        But if the word inherently has a story in the word, is it a-

    27. KBKishore Biyani1:56:11

        It helps, Nikhil, it helps.

    28. ANAnanth Narayanan1:56:12

        Of course, it helps, right? I mean, we have Tesla.... and you're running an electric car company, I mean, it helps, right? So I think having a name-

    29. NKNikhil Kamath1:56:18

        Can you just come up with a name for a T-shirt company which has a story in the name?

    30. RSRaj Shamani1:56:23

        Can I add?
32. 1:59:49 – 2:02:20

    Does High Price Indicate Better Quality?

    1. ANAnanth Narayanan1:59:49

       Uh, yes, within a brand.

    2. NKNikhil Kamath1:59:51

       Explain.

    3. ANAnanth Narayanan1:59:52

       So, for example, if you basically say... You know, you guys- [chuckles]

    4. RSRaj Shamani1:59:55

       No, no, no, I, I, I think that's true, what you're saying, like, just go on.

    5. ANAnanth Narayanan1:59:58

       No, I- see, look, I mean, um, uh, let me give you, um, let me give you the MyFitness example. We charge more than our competitors-

    6. RSRaj Shamani2:00:08

       Mm

    7. ANAnanth Narayanan2:00:08

       ... who are in the same sort of space, right? I don't know, Happy Little, X, Y, Z, right? Whatever. We charge more. We charge by twenty percent more. The minute you get to fifty percent more, there is actually a basket cost. See, because, by the way, a, a, a, a five hundred grams lasts for-

    8. NKNikhil Kamath2:00:27

       What is basket?

    9. ANAnanth Narayanan2:00:28

       See, basically, if you want to buy something, right-

    10. NKNikhil Kamath2:00:29

        Mm

    11. ANAnanth Narayanan2:00:30

        ... you know, you have some amount that you spend on grocery.

    12. NKNikhil Kamath2:00:32

        Mm.

    13. ANAnanth Narayanan2:00:32

        Right? Uh-

    14. NKNikhil Kamath2:00:33

        Can't you buy that bag that they give you and put everything in it?

    15. ANAnanth Narayanan2:00:36

        No, no, no,

    16. NKNikhil Kamath2:00:36

        You don't need a basket.

    17. ANAnanth Narayanan2:00:36

        No, just hear me out, hear me out.

    18. NKNikhil Kamath2:00:37

        Mm.

    19. ANAnanth Narayanan2:00:37

        So, you know, there is a certain amount of money I want to spend.

    20. NKNikhil Kamath2:00:40

        Mm.

    21. ANAnanth Narayanan2:00:40

        Right? It can be at a premium, but it can't break the bank. So, for example, if I'm spending a thousand rupees on five hundred grams of peanut butter, suddenly you start to think a little differently. But if I'm spending two hundred rupees more, there is a break point.

    22. NKNikhil Kamath2:00:58

        Mm.

    23. ANAnanth Narayanan2:00:58

        Right? So I don't know if that's making sense, right? So there's a band for every one of these. Within that band, I think premium people think it is actually you're charging a little bit more. The packaging makes a difference, all of that makes a difference. But I don't know, maybe, Kishore, you can comment on it, but if you charge five times for a utilitarian thing, then I think it gets to be tough.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath2:01:15

        I have to say, like, digressing here, my favorite kind of shopping is supermarkets.

    25. ANAnanth Narayanan2:01:20

        Yeah.

    26. NKNikhil Kamath2:01:20

        There is some- the only kind of shopping I'd go do in person.

    27. ANAnanth Narayanan2:01:23

        Yep.

    28. NKNikhil Kamath2:01:24

        There is something so therapeutic about being in a supermarket, picking up all these random boxes, which have, like, weird colors on them. So they've got something in the physical shopping bang on. I don't know how much research has gone into it.

    29. KBKishore Biyani2:01:38

        A lot of research.

    30. ANAnanth Narayanan2:01:39

        A lot of research.
33. 2:02:20 – 2:04:28

    Longevity: The Key to Brand Building

    1. NKNikhil Kamath2:02:20

       odds of it selling more go up?

    2. KBKishore Biyani2:02:22

       ... maybe for, maybe for a while. I, I think something which we, uh, has not been discussed also is l- whatever you create, what is the longevity of that?

    3. ANAnanth Narayanan2:02:30

       Yeah.

    4. KBKishore Biyani2:02:30

       And what does brand mean? Brand means you are getting f- uh, instead of a commodity of X rupees a kilo, you are getting X plus-

    5. ANAnanth Narayanan2:02:36

       You're getting a multiple

    6. KBKishore Biyani2:02:37

       ... twenty percent, thirty percent-

    7. ANAnanth Narayanan2:02:38

       Correct, correct

    8. KBKishore Biyani2:02:38

       ... something.

    9. ANAnanth Narayanan2:02:38

       Correct.

    10. KBKishore Biyani2:02:38

        That's what the brand is all about. And you have to position the brand in a way that you keep, keep on getting that premium, until when you will be able to get that premium. So as a peanut butter, now, how is he building the brand that it will have that longevity to get that premium-

    11. ANAnanth Narayanan2:02:52

        That's right

    12. KBKishore Biyani2:02:52

        ... throughout the year?

    13. ANAnanth Narayanan2:02:53

        That's right.

    14. KBKishore Biyani2:02:53

        Throughout the lifetime?

    15. ANAnanth Narayanan2:02:54

        Yeah.

    16. KBKishore Biyani2:02:54

        I think that's where the brand will stand out.

    17. ANAnanth Narayanan2:02:56

        Yeah.

    18. NKNikhil Kamath2:02:56

        And I think, by the way, cons- sorry, sorry.

    19. ANAnanth Narayanan2:02:58

        Yeah, yeah, yeah. [chuckles]

    20. NKNikhil Kamath2:02:58

        No, no, just to maybe just complete that, I think the longevity point I really think is important, because I think brands get built up over decades, right?

    21. KBKishore Biyani2:03:05

        No, but if you build on growth hacking, how will the brand, uh, longevity happen?

    22. NKNikhil Kamath2:03:08

        No, no, sorry. I think there are two different things, Kishore. I think there is a distribution, and how do you optimize the distribution?

    23. KBKishore Biyani2:03:13

        Fair enough.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath2:03:14

        Right? It's like getting the right mall space, right? You, uh, in your-

    25. KBKishore Biyani2:03:17

        Yeah, I mean-

    26. NKNikhil Kamath2:03:17

        ... in your days, you would get the mall space. I think that's a different problem than building brand, building product, a- and so on, which is absolutely important for me to do. So I'm saying growth hacking is the new way of getting a great space in a mall, right? The, uh, the analogy, right? I think here on brand building, I think this consistency point is important. You have to be known for something that compounds over time, right?

    27. KBKishore Biyani2:03:37

        Mm.

    28. NKNikhil Kamath2:03:38

        You know, it can be taste, it can be, um, a, a... So for example, in our My- in the, in the My Peanut, in the p- in the peanut butter, right? I think there is usually oil separation that happens, because it's emulsified. So we have done an emulsification, which is make sure that it, it still, it still separates, but it doesn't feel like oil. So when you take it and taste it, when you open it, it just is nicer. It can be, it can be small thing, right? It can be a large thing, but you need something that differentiates this, and it's consistent over time. Or if you have a fashion brand, right? You need some design direction that may change, but the ethos is still consistent over a long period of time, right? Because I think it takes compounding to build a brand, right? A- and my point is, they are not at odds with growth hacking. My point is, growth hacking is distribution for me.

    29. KBKishore Biyani2:04:20

        Fair enough.

    30. NKNikhil Kamath2:04:20

        Cheap distribution, right?
34. 2:04:28 – 2:10:09

    Unlocking the Beauty Industry: How to Get In?

    1. KBKishore Biyani2:04:28

       which was built around onion as a ingredient.

    2. ANAnanth Narayanan2:04:30

       Mm.

    3. NKNikhil Kamath2:04:31

       Was it?

    4. ANAnanth Narayanan2:04:32

       Yeah, onion oil was the...

    5. KBKishore Biyani2:04:33

       Ingredient, uh, and through which now they have extended the brand to many products and categories, but they-

    6. NKNikhil Kamath2:04:38

       Why did onion o- oil work for them?

    7. KBKishore Biyani2:04:41

       I think people had memories about onion oil being healthy for the hair.

    8. NKNikhil Kamath2:04:45

       But nobody had-

    9. KBKishore Biyani2:04:46

       Nobody had thought about it, and they came into that market. And there was another brand which was built around coffee.

    10. NKNikhil Kamath2:04:52

        Which is?

    11. KBKishore Biyani2:04:52

        mCaffeine.

    12. NKNikhil Kamath2:04:53

        mCaffeine.

    13. ANAnanth Narayanan2:04:54

        mCaffeine.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath2:04:54

        mCaffeine.

    15. ANAnanth Narayanan2:04:54

        Yeah.

    16. NKNikhil Kamath2:04:55

        Do you know of any other things like onion oil which have not been realized?

    17. KBKishore Biyani2:04:58

        We are, we are just, uh, uh... My son-in-law is launching a brand called, in beauty space-

    18. NKNikhil Kamath2:05:03

        Mm

    19. KBKishore Biyani2:05:03

        ... which is, uh, which is a milk as a base, dairy as a base. The science of milk.

    20. NKNikhil Kamath2:05:08

        Mm.

    21. KBKishore Biyani2:05:09

        And milk, again, has been a lot of connotation around beauty, but nobody-- Dove uses milk, uh, they uses milk as a insignia. They use it in the packaging, but they don't use milk in the product, but they use it [chuckles] in the packaging.

    22. ANAnanth Narayanan2:05:20

        Right, right.

    23. KBKishore Biyani2:05:20

        So milk has a lot of connotation in Indian, uh, culture.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath2:05:24

        So you're saying pick something from... I think Ayurveda, many people have over-

    25. KBKishore Biyani2:05:29

        But everything old and new form-

    26. NKNikhil Kamath2:05:30

        Uh.

    27. ANAnanth Narayanan2:05:31

        Yeah, yeah

    28. KBKishore Biyani2:05:31

        ... is coming in.

    29. ANAnanth Narayanan2:05:32

        See, I think there's a, there are two ways to sort of play the beauty game, right?

    30. NKNikhil Kamath2:05:36

        Mm.
35. 2:10:09 – 2:14:18

    Micro-Niche Strategy: Be a Shark in a Pond

    1. KBKishore Biyani2:10:09

       consumers, who are digital-first consumers-

    2. ANAnanth Narayanan2:10:11

       Yep

    3. KBKishore Biyani2:10:11

       ... and we looked at, uh, their color of pursuit, the new lifestyles, and we found something very interesting. We found a group of, uh, a lot of women coming together and, uh, getting into, uh... Especially in restaurants, you can see them, a bunch of them together.

    4. ANAnanth Narayanan2:10:26

       Yeah.

    5. KBKishore Biyani2:10:26

       Not the, the evening time, not in morning time you used to see them. I think it's happening because of, uh, a lot of free time, and, uh, and people want to go out and experience a lot of new things.

    6. NKNikhil Kamath2:10:38

       Mm.

    7. KBKishore Biyani2:10:38

       And, uh, I think, and getting that freedom to go out. Then there is a chemical know-it-all, like we were mentioning.

    8. ANAnanth Narayanan2:10:45

       Yeah.

    9. KBKishore Biyani2:10:45

       His younger child-

    10. ANAnanth Narayanan2:10:46

        Yeah

    11. KBKishore Biyani2:10:46

        ... wants to read everything behind.

    12. ANAnanth Narayanan2:10:47

        Correct.

    13. KBKishore Biyani2:10:47

        So there are a lot of consumers now who wants to live-

    14. ANAnanth Narayanan2:10:49

        Yeah, yeah

    15. KBKishore Biyani2:10:50

        ... uh, read everything-

    16. NKNikhil Kamath2:10:51

        Mm

    17. KBKishore Biyani2:10:51

        ... what's written on the back of the pack, and-

    18. NKNikhil Kamath2:10:52

        Mm

    19. KBKishore Biyani2:10:53

        ... they are very conscious about the ingredients getting used. Another community we are looking at is gated communities. People who live in-

    20. NKNikhil Kamath2:10:59

        Mm

    21. KBKishore Biyani2:11:00

        ... the gated apartments.

    22. NKNikhil Kamath2:11:01

        They're gonna-

    23. KBKishore Biyani2:11:01

        And, yeah.

    24. ANAnanth Narayanan2:11:02

        And-

    25. KBKishore Biyani2:11:02

        It must be the B- Belandur community, I don't know.

    26. NKNikhil Kamath2:11:05

        No, he lives here.

    27. KBKishore Biyani2:11:06

        Okay, okay, great. [laughing]

    28. NKNikhil Kamath2:11:07

        [laughing] They need it.

    29. KBKishore Biyani2:11:07

        So this is another community.

    30. ANAnanth Narayanan2:11:09

        Yeah.
36. 2:14:18 – 2:16:44

    Kishore's Unexpected Industry Picks

    1. NKNikhil Kamath2:14:18

       a line. [chuckles]

    2. KBKishore Biyani2:14:18

       No, there is a... I, I would say-

    3. ANAnanth Narayanan2:14:19

       For sure. [laughing]

    4. KBKishore Biyani2:14:19

       ... somebody has to, somebody has to start a brand around something. I would rather do it for gamers and gamblers.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath2:14:25

       Gamers and gamblers.

    6. KBKishore Biyani2:14:25

       There's not a single, single brand for them, and they are huge in numbers.

    7. ANAnanth Narayanan2:14:29

       ... Right. What do you mean gaming companies?

    8. KBKishore Biyani2:14:30

       People who game a lot.

    9. ANAnanth Narayanan2:14:32

       Okay.

    10. KBKishore Biyani2:14:33

        And people who went into-

    11. ANAnanth Narayanan2:14:35

        Chair for them, keyboards for them.

    12. KBKishore Biyani2:14:36

        Whatever.

    13. ANAnanth Narayanan2:14:37

        Right.

    14. KBKishore Biyani2:14:37

        No, no, no, maybe some brand around that.

    15. ANAnanth Narayanan2:14:39

        Brand around them as well.

    16. NKNikhil Kamath2:14:40

        Hmm. Yeah, yeah.

    17. KBKishore Biyani2:14:41

        You will be subconsciously talking to them in a particular way, and they will relate to you. Midnight Scholars, that's a huge community again.

    18. NKNikhil Kamath2:14:48

        Like nootropics, stuff like that? Which is-

    19. KBKishore Biyani2:14:50

        Not that product. I think they are a, a group of people-

    20. ANAnanth Narayanan2:14:53

        She's, she's looking for a community

    21. KBKishore Biyani2:14:54

        ... who have common- They are a community by themselves.

    22. ANAnanth Narayanan2:14:56

        They're a community, and can you build a product for the community?

    23. KBKishore Biyani2:14:58

        Yeah.

    24. ANAnanth Narayanan2:14:58

        So you're not talking about utilitarian stuff anymore.

    25. KBKishore Biyani2:15:00

        It's positioning.

    26. ANAnanth Narayanan2:15:00

        You're talking about positioning.

    27. KBKishore Biyani2:15:00

        Positioning.

    28. NKNikhil Kamath2:15:01

        Positioning.

    29. ANAnanth Narayanan2:15:01

        Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting, interesting. I think that's interesting.

    30. NKNikhil Kamath2:15:03

        That's, that's the way of hitting a micro-niche.
37. 2:16:44 – 2:20:21

    SKU Count Decision in Fashion

    1. NKNikhil Kamath2:16:44

       intrinsic to the conversation que- question I had: How important is it to have many SKUs if you're starting a new brand in fashion, clothing-

    2. ANAnanth Narayanan2:16:54

       So-

    3. NKNikhil Kamath2:16:55

       ... cosmetics?

    4. ANAnanth Narayanan2:16:56

       It's a great question.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath2:16:57

       Or is it better to start a brand with fewer SKUs and focus on those?

    6. KBKishore Biyani2:17:01

       I think, depends on the category you're getting in.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath2:17:03

       Let's talk about fashion.

    8. KBKishore Biyani2:17:04

       Fashion may, I would say if you are doing a D2C, not more than 60, 70 options to start with.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath2:17:12

       And that's across sizes?

    10. ANAnanth Narayanan2:17:13

        Yeah.

    11. KBKishore Biyani2:17:13

        Sizes are separate options.

    12. ANAnanth Narayanan2:17:15

        Yeah, yeah. So 60, 70 options in full size sets, I would agree with that. I think the only, um, thing-

    13. NKNikhil Kamath2:17:20

        Sizes are separate?

    14. KBKishore Biyani2:17:21

        No, sizes are separate. Separate-

    15. ANAnanth Narayanan2:17:22

        So you'll-

    16. KBKishore Biyani2:17:23

        The total number of SKUs will be large.

    17. ANAnanth Narayanan2:17:24

        Large, right?

    18. KBKishore Biyani2:17:25

        Hmm.

    19. ANAnanth Narayanan2:17:25

        So 60 times-

    20. KBKishore Biyani2:17:25

        Then-

    21. ANAnanth Narayanan2:17:26

        ... the size set, which is 32 to whatever, right? So, uh-

    22. KBKishore Biyani2:17:29

        Very difficult to manage otherwise.

    23. NKNikhil Kamath2:17:31

        And is the way to build these-

    24. ANAnanth Narayanan2:17:32

        I, I, one-

    25. NKNikhil Kamath2:17:32

        Is the way to build these brands, you create a bunch of inventory and keep it, so you're able to fulfill or you ship that?

    26. KBKishore Biyani2:17:38

        I, I, I believe that, uh, I come from a physical world, and the digital world is very different-

    27. NKNikhil Kamath2:17:43

        Hmm

    28. KBKishore Biyani2:17:43

        ... uh, in fashion.

    29. NKNikhil Kamath2:17:44

        Hmm.

    30. KBKishore Biyani2:17:44

        And I believe digital brand in fashion has to do m- X number of stock turns, otherwise there's no sense.

Episode duration: 3:23:59