Ep# 15 | WTF is Climate Change? Nikhil ft. Sunita, Bhumi, Navroz and Mirik

1. 0:00 – 0:34

   Introduction

   1. NKNikhil Kamath0:00

      Everybody has heard of the word climate change, but when I ask them to describe it to me or tell me what it is, uh, not many are able to. [upbeat music] Ready, Meghna? Start. [chuckles]

2. 0:34 – 6:14

   How Navroz went from engineering to Climate Change

   1. NKNikhil Kamath0:34

      Hi, guys. Welcome, everyone. Uh, I've not done this for a while. We took a break of sorts. The very first thing we do when we begin is introduce each one of you. Uh, who would like to go first?

   2. NDNavroz K Dubash0:48

      Sure.

   3. NKNikhil Kamath0:48

      So tell us a bit about you, where you grew up, how did you get into the domain that you are in right now, uh, and just highlights and low points in your life so far.

   4. NDNavroz K Dubash0:59

      Okay.

   5. BPBhumi Pednekar1:00

      Okay.

   6. NDNavroz K Dubash1:00

      Well, for those of us who've been around for a little bit longer, it may take a little longer, but we'll-- I'll try and keep it, keep it brief. You know, I, um, followed the standard South Asian path, as especially as a South Asian male. I started out as an engineer, but I really didn't enjoy it. I started enjoying my political science, politics, history, all this stuff, much more. And so I started getting interested in development and, uh, and I had the opportunity when I was studying. It was, uh, the late nineteen eighties. There was, there was sort of emergence of discussions around the environment, and I took myself off, uh, to the Narmada Valley, and I introduced, and I interviewed people who were associated with the Narmada Bachao Andolan, and many people from my generation actually got into environmentalism through that. It was a very high-profile movement.

   7. BPBhumi Pednekar1:54

      Mm.

   8. NDNavroz K Dubash1:54

      Do you actually, uh, uh, you know, do you have to break eggs to make omelets? Is that inevitable consequence of development, or can you do it in a way where you actually don't harm poor people, where you don't dam rivers, where you don't despoil the environment? And I thought this was fascinating. So this was my first kind of entry point, and I wrote a thesis about this and so on and so forth. And then when I graduated from college, and this was in the US, I've had this, uh, uh... I was just in the right place at the right moment. Uh, I'd also done some work on climate change. It was nineteen ninety, and there were preparations to start negotiating a climate change convention. So I got in touch with an organization who was, uh, involved, uh, in the periphery of the Narmada movement, and I said, "Look, I'm looking for a job." And they said, "Well, as it happens, we need somebody to help build a global network on climate change called the Climate Action Network, and are you interested? We don't have very much money." So I was fresh out of college, and I was like, "Well, yeah, sure." Uh, and so I called up, uh, Sunita and Anil Agarwal at CSE. I called up people in Latin America. It was the old days. It was fax machines, photocopiers. I didn't really know what to do in an office. You know, I had a filing cabinet, and I had two files, faxes in and faxes out. I didn't really know what I was doing. You know, I used to read the newspaper under the table because I, I, I'd had never been in an office before. But over the next couple of years, we built up this network, and, uh, uh, civil society organizations from Africa, Asia, Latin America, all showed up, and that organization exists today. It's called the Global Climate Action Network. It's now hundreds, uh, of people. Uh, and the key part was that it brought representatives from the developing world to this global process, because until then, it had only been Americans and Europeans, right? So development issues emerge as part of the conversation, and I'll just give you one anecdote from that period. Very early on, we sat around the table with the Americans, Europeans, people from Malaysia, India, everywhere else, and the Americans, who'd been at this for a while, said, "Okay, we need to come up with a common lobbying position. So what we should say is that we, the richer countries, have caused most of this problem. So we should reduce, you know, say, uh, fifty percent by the year two thousand." This was in nineteen ninety. Very ambitious, right?

   9. BPBhumi Pednekar4:15

      [chuckles]

   10. NDNavroz K Dubash4:16

       "And the developing world will do the same thing five years later." And I still remember a colleague from Malaysia said, "Wait a minute, but our per person emissions are so much smaller that that would lock us into a much lower level of emissions in perpetuity." And the Americans sort of scratched their heads, and they looked at each other, and they realized there wasn't a common ground. And the funny thing is, in many ways, we're still having the same conversation today-

   11. BPBhumi Pednekar4:42

       [chuckles]

   12. NDNavroz K Dubash4:42

       ... thirty years later, right? So this was my sort of trial by, by fire. I did this for two years, um, and then I decided, this is sort of crazy. I know nothing about development. I know nothing about the world. I'm sitting at these UN negotiations just because I was in the right place at the right time. I need to step back. And so I went off to do my PhD, and for that, I started looking at water use in Gujarat, in two villages. So I spent a year in these two villages. So the other extreme, from the global straight to the sort of village level, and I studied this as an academic and thinking about what one does about it. Um, and so those two experiences were really kind of shaping and framing. So I'm not going to give you the blow-by-blow, but sort of fast-forward after working for a little while in the US, I came back to India, uh, in early, in the early two thousands. Um, bounced around a little bit, universities, this, that, and the other, and then I landed at a, uh, a wonderful institution, the Centre for Policy Research. And there, uh, I built uh, a team of people working on energy, climate change, uh, environment. Uh, was able to collaborate with, uh, Sunita and other colleagues in other organizations, and, uh, have been there for an, an- for a decade, until just last month.... when I left, uh, along with our group, to set up a new institute called the Sustainable Futures Collaborative, and we are just getting going this year. So that's the, that's the arc.

   13. NKNikhil Kamath6:13

       Tell us a bit about

3. 6:14 – 9:25

   What is the IPCC?

   1. NKNikhil Kamath6:14

      IPCC, which is, uh-

   2. NDNavroz K Dubash6:16

      Yeah

   3. NKNikhil Kamath6:16

      ... I think for many people, the Bible of this industry, right?

   4. NDNavroz K Dubash6:19

      Right.

   5. NKNikhil Kamath6:19

      You're a co-author in it.

   6. NDNavroz K Dubash6:20

      So as part of my work at CPR, I was, um, uh, so, so, so, you know, I, I both publish, and I do policy work, right? So as part of the policy work, we get invited to sit on government committees, and so on and so forth. But a core belief of our group is that we have to be-- our work and our policy positions need to be based on rigorous work, and therefore, publication is an important part of that. So in that context, I got engaged with the IPCC, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. So it's a really strange, uh, beast, right? So it's, it's three working groups: science, impacts, and what are called response strategies. How do you respond to it? And I was in the third, uh, of these, and I did it, uh, twice. Each cycle takes seven years. So the way it works is, you don't come up with new information, but you, your group is meant to be the authoritative compilation of existing information. So I was tasked this last time around with the, uh, unbelievably, uh, impossible task of compiling all the information for chapter thirteen, one of seventeen chapters, and my chapter was called National and Subnational Policies and Institutions. So all the policies and all the institutions needed to address climate change.

   7. SPSpeaker7:37

      Hmm.

   8. NDNavroz K Dubash7:37

      And we had to pull that together over the COVID period, through Zoom calls, you know, with, with authors all over the world. And it's a very, very complex process because governments take this really seriously.

   9. SPSpeaker7:52

      Hmm.

   10. NDNavroz K Dubash7:52

       Right? So governments at the end-- This isn't just a research report. Thank you. This isn't just a research report, because by the end of it, governments approve this report on a line-by-line basis. They approve the summary of it. So they literally put up on the screen one sentence at a time. Governments will comment on it, suggest modifications. The authors have to then go back and say, "This is consistent with the science. This is not consistent with the science." And they're jockeying for position, so it's an incredibly complicated and incredibly painstaking process. So the approval happens over a week, where you're basically locked into a room, working twelve, fourteen, sixteen-hour days with all the government delegates. And very slowly, very incrementally, you come up with formulations about: Is climate change real? What do we do about it? What are the likely impacts? And they put probability metrics by it. This is fifty percent likely, this is ninety percent likely, this is highly likely, and so on. So it's a very unwieldy process, and, um, we'll talk about the negotiations later, I'm sure. They're both incredibly unwieldy processes, and I've had thoughts more than once that you're dealing with this urgent, dramatic situation, and sometimes I feel you couldn't design a more cumbersome process, globally, to deal with this.

   11. SPSpeaker9:15

       And you review it every seven years?

   12. NDNavroz K Dubash9:18

       Every seven years, there's another cycle-

   13. NKNikhil Kamath9:20

       Report.

   14. SPSpeaker9:20

       Hmm.

   15. NDNavroz K Dubash9:20

       ... a new set of authors are brought on-

   16. SPSpeaker9:21

       Hmm

   17. NDNavroz K Dubash9:21

       ... and you start the whole thing over again to work with them.

   18. NKNikhil Kamath9:24

       Sunita,

4. 9:25 – 16:27

   Mirik on his early days, education and ventures

   1. NKNikhil Kamath9:25

      would you like to go next?

   2. SPSpeaker9:26

      No, let Mirik go first, maybe. [chuckles]

   3. NKNikhil Kamath9:28

      Yeah, sure.

   4. MGMirik Gogri9:30

      So I think, uh, just a brief about me. I'm born and brought up in Mumbai, so, uh, studied here also, so never sort of went out of the city. Uh, I think early days, uh, so at- when I was, like, four, four and a half years old, there was a... I had a brain tumor, actually, and that got, uh, so that was a challenging time. I don't remember it, about it too much, but, uh, at least for the family and everyone around, it was a challenging time. But, uh, luckily, no major issues, uh, after that. But, uh, that sort of shaped my thinking later on. So I come from a engineering family. My father is an engineer, my uncle is an engineer, elder brother is an engineer. So that whole engineering mindset, uh, that you want to go into engineering, so then did preparation for IIT. Uh, the first attempt was not a very good attempt, so I didn't get a good rank. Uh, took a drop, did the whole thing again, and then again, had a target to go to IIT Bombay. I had an option between IIT Bombay and UCLA, uh, in the second attempt, and then I said, "Look," uh, I had heard so many stories about IIT Bombay from my brother, the mood Indigos, the hostel life, and all that. So I thought, "Look, this is the place." Uh, and then during IIT, at the end of IIT, it was the startup phase, if you remember, like, all the... This was twenty thirteen, twenty twelve-

   5. NKNikhil Kamath10:43

      How old are you now, Mirik?

   6. MGMirik Gogri10:44

      Thirty-three.

   7. NKNikhil Kamath10:45

      What year are you talking about, IIT?

   8. MGMirik Gogri10:46

      So yeah, so I passed out in twenty thirteen, so two thousand and eight, thirteen. So this was a time when the housings of the world and tiny houses of the world. So all sort of my batchmates were either founders and, or startup founders, and there was a whole, at that time, the hope of Powai Valley, uh-

   9. SPSpeaker11:02

      [chuckles]

   10. MGMirik Gogri11:02

       ... being created, um. So I also did-- had my own journey there, uh, with my batchmate, uh, Ayush Jain. We started this company called Humming Whale, which had nothing to do with sustainability at all at that time. Uh, it was just a pure play, "Let's create cool things, and then license them or collaborate with big corporates, uh, to make them successful," and your aim is just to create cool things. So over between twenty thirteen and sixteen, we would have made, like, fifteen odd products.

   11. SPSpeaker11:30

       What are these cool things? I'm very curious to know.

   12. MGMirik Gogri11:32

       Uh, so, so one, I think the most famous one, was we made a, a cricket bat, which was more, uh, aerodynamic in nature, and the edges wouldn't travel, uh, to the slips. And that was in reaction to one of the India's test matches in England-

   13. SPSpeaker11:47

       Hmm

   14. MGMirik Gogri11:47

       ... the test series where we lost, I think, four zero or something. And I-- we were like, "Okay, can we do something about it?" So we, in IIT, we had all these people who could do the simulations on softwares and lot of iterations, that it, ten iterations. We got it approved from the Marylebone Cricket Club.

   15. SPSpeaker12:02

       Hmm.

   16. MGMirik Gogri12:02

       We sent it there. They said that it's legally allowed. They-- When we met-... everyone, like, at that time, Sachin or Rahul Dravid, or Kohli, Pujara. So it was an interesting time. Uh, for whatever reasons, it didn't scale up as we hoped for. We sold a couple of hundred bats-

   17. NKNikhil Kamath12:18

       Mm.

   18. MGMirik Gogri12:18

       -uh, and some more interesting things like that. Then we realized, look, this is a passion project. It's not really going to-

   19. NKNikhil Kamath12:25

       Mm

   20. MGMirik Gogri12:25

       ... turn into a business. I think business will require the depth, the focus, and at that time, when you look at the total addressable market of a cricket bat in India, it was like a thousand crore, so not much of a dent that you could do in it. And in 2016, we took the call that, "Let's shut it down." And from 2016, I joined Aarti Industries, which is sort of my company that my father and uncle founded in 1984, so it's going to be 40 years now. And I think for me, the climate journey, around 2019, 2020, just before COVID, so I do read a lot, and I went into the rabbit hole, and the Google and the YouTube algorithms-

   21. NKNikhil Kamath13:00

       Mm

   22. MGMirik Gogri13:00

       ... really trapped me into that, uh, climate phase and did a lot of courses. Uh, so a lot of self-reading, and earlier it was more about just understand the whole problem, not really do anything about it. But then I actually had gone to COP26, and before that, we did some interaction with a few organizations globally. I think COP26, for me, was like the sense of urgency hit me, like, this is the decade, the decisive decade and all those things. And I said: Look, we really... I came back, talked to the family, that we really need to start, uh, within our sphere of influence, whatever that is, work with organizations, and, uh, make our sort of point or make our impact in the overall climate story. So yeah, I think now we are closely working with over 60 organizations globally-

   23. NKNikhil Kamath13:49

       Oh, cool

   24. MGMirik Gogri13:50

       ... in various sectors, including Navroz, uh, but others as well, so.

   25. NKNikhil Kamath13:54

       So me and Mirik have not known each other for too long.

   26. BPBhumi Pednekar13:57

       Okay.

   27. NKNikhil Kamath13:58

       Last year, we were in Goa at a event.

   28. MGMirik Gogri14:00

       Sangam, Sangam Summit.

   29. NKNikhil Kamath14:02

       Some- And Nandan put us on a table, like four of us together. One of them was a geothermal guy-

   30. MGMirik Gogri14:07

       Yeah
5. 16:27 – 21:06

   How Bhoomi became a Climate Warrior

   1. BPBhumi Pednekar16:27

      Absolutely.

   2. NKNikhil Kamath16:28

      Who would, who would like to go [chuckles] next?

   3. BPBhumi Pednekar16:30

      So I'm Bhumi. I'm an actor. Don't ask me my age. [chuckles] But, um, I live in Bombay, born and brought up. I am, uh, also very passionate about everything, all the conversations, all the action around climate change. I kinda wanna dig into where this started from. Um, I remember we'd learnt about climate change in school, and I was like, "Okay, you know, our environment's changing, our weather is changing, no big deal." But obviously, like, you know, we were told that, uh, fresh water is gonna dry up. You know, there's gonna be drought, like, it's gonna be quite apocalyptic. And then I watched a film called The Day After Tomorrow, and I thought, "This is real. This is gonna happen." And I was very young. I was probably, like, in my pre-teens, and I was like: This is gonna happen, and I'm gonna drown, my family's gonna drown, my city's gonna drown, and, you know, how am I gonna save them?

   4. NKNikhil Kamath17:30

      Mm.

   5. BPBhumi Pednekar17:30

      So I think that, that movie impacted me so deeply that I kind of started reading up. I started questioning my elders, people around me, and nobody seemed to care. You know, nobody seemed to care. They were like, "No, it's all okay. It's just a conceptual fact. You know, it's not gonna affect you. It's gonna happen, like, in the future. Your children are gonna outlive it. You know, we are not really gonna see it." And I was like, "Okay." But then, as I kind of went on in my journey, I realized that it's happening now, right? And, uh, it bothered me. I actually had, like, many, many anxious nights-

   6. NKNikhil Kamath18:09

      Mm.

   7. BPBhumi Pednekar18:10

      ... and, uh, because it felt-... very lonely at the start of it, 'cause if I ever went and I spoke to anybody that, "You know, I feel this way," like it bothers me, you know, what's gonna happen?

   8. NKNikhil Kamath18:21

      Mm.

   9. BPBhumi Pednekar18:21

      I was made fun of. Nobody really kind of, um... They couldn't comprehend what my thought process was or where my fear came in, and, uh, that's when I kind of went in looking for like-minded people. Uh, there weren't many, I wouldn't lie. Uh, this was, like, maybe... And then I became an actor, and, uh, I realized that I have people-

   10. NKNikhil Kamath18:49

       You wanted to work on climate before acting?

   11. BPBhumi Pednekar18:52

       Yes.

   12. NKNikhil Kamath18:52

       Ah.

   13. BPBhumi Pednekar18:52

       Way before acting, way be- You know, I was that child that if there was a natural disaster, I would be on the roads collecting chanda. So I think I've always been, like, an empathetic person, and somebody-

   14. NKNikhil Kamath19:03

       I'll, I'll pay Bhumi a compliment, not because she's sitting in front of me. Uh, but when COVID was going on, we didn't know each other-

   15. BPBhumi Pednekar19:10

       Yeah

   16. NKNikhil Kamath19:10

       ... and somebody had connected us, and I was like, Bollywood star, you know, like, all of, you know, what would we talk about really? But every time we spoke, Bhumi would always call me and be like, "This person in this remote part of Bangalore is looking for an ambulance, or they're looking for a hospital bed," and she would join all the calls around this very diligently for a very, very long time, and I was so impressed. I was like, "She's not in Bangalore. She works in Bollywood. She's an actress. Why is she calling me to find an ambulance for somebody in remote Bangalore?" Which was very impressive.

   17. BPBhumi Pednekar19:46

       Thank you.

   18. NKNikhil Kamath19:46

       So it is-

   19. BPBhumi Pednekar19:46

       That was quite an experience. I mean, you did your fair share, which was so... It was... Yeah, I think, like, everybody did their bit. So just going back to what I was saying, then my acting career started, and I realized, and I've always kind of stood for films that make an impact, and I realized that, okay, now I have the power to reach out to a larger audience, so, you know, might as well use it to advocate for any kind of positive impact that I could, and I started Climate Warrior in 2019. Uh, through Climate Warrior, we did, um, a lot of on-ground work, which were, like, beach cleanups, plastic collection drives, um, talks, panels, wherever my voice could reach and whatever change we could get. Our target audience was pretty much the youth of India, because as you rightly said, they are the change makers. They are the ones that are gonna find the solutions. It's been quite a satisfying journey since I started Climate Warrior, 'cause I've met a lot of like-minded people.

   20. NKNikhil Kamath20:49

       Mm. Mm.

   21. BPBhumi Pednekar20:49

       So suddenly it didn't feel as lonely, and I was like-

   22. NKNikhil Kamath20:51

       Yeah

   23. BPBhumi Pednekar20:51

       ... "Okay, there are people that understand why I get anxious," or, you know, there are people that actually wanna bring about a change, and yeah, that's why I'm here.

   24. NKNikhil Kamath21:00

       Sweet.

   25. SNSunita Narain21:01

       Yes.

   26. BPBhumi Pednekar21:02

       So in fact-

   27. SNSunita Narain21:02

       Sweet. [chuckles]

   28. NKNikhil Kamath21:03

       Sweet. [chuckles]

   29. SNSunita Narain21:04

       So in fact,

6. 21:06 – 26:47

   Why Sunita started working in the Climate Space

   1. SNSunita Narain21:06

      a lot of what you said, Bhumi, is resonates with me. But strangely enough, even though I'm so much older than you, um, so when we- when I started out, uh, and that's a long time ago, 1980, um, nobody knew the word environment.

   2. NKNikhil Kamath21:21

      Mm.

   3. BPBhumi Pednekar21:22

      Right.

   4. SNSunita Narain21:22

      Okay? And I had this wild idea that I was gonna work in the field of environment, and people asked me why-

   5. BPBhumi Pednekar21:30

      Mm

   6. SNSunita Narain21:30

      ... and I still don't know. But I think it goes back to my mother, who was sort of Delhi's, and Navroz knew, was Delhi's most avid gardener, and so, you know, I grew up with green all around me.

   7. BPBhumi Pednekar21:42

      Mm.

   8. SNSunita Narain21:42

      And at that time, nobody really knew what the word environment was. And I, um, and at school, it was very strange, because there are three of us who met at... You know, life is about coincidences, and we met at this strange conference in Delhi, which was organized by now what I say, the grownup, I mean, at that time we said the grownups talking, talking, talking, and not doing anything. [chuckles]

   9. BPBhumi Pednekar22:09

      [chuckles]

   10. SNSunita Narain22:10

       Okay? And, um, we all ended up there, and we set up a... We decided to form a group, just like you.

   11. BPBhumi Pednekar22:17

       Mm.

   12. SNSunita Narain22:18

       But this is 1980. Uh-

   13. BPBhumi Pednekar22:21

       Wow.

   14. SNSunita Narain22:21

       It was called Kalpavriksh.

   15. BPBhumi Pednekar22:23

       Wow.

   16. SNSunita Narain22:23

       It was a student group. We were all in school. I was in Modern School in Delhi, and there were others in school, and we were all... We used to just meet and take up causes, and we've took up causes all the way from protecting trees, that I still pass that road every day, and I think about it, that... So I don't know if you've been to Delhi, but-

   17. BPBhumi Pednekar22:47

       I have

   18. SNSunita Narain22:47

       ... there is this very, there's this road that leads from Safdarjung-

   19. BPBhumi Pednekar22:51

       Mm-hmm

   20. SNSunita Narain22:51

       ... uh, tomb, down to IIC. You know that main, what's called the boulevard?

   21. BPBhumi Pednekar22:57

       Mm-hmm.

   22. SNSunita Narain22:57

       Okay, and at that time, they were going to chop down all the trees, and it was our fight, which actually, and this is 1980, '79, '80, and at that time, so they decided to keep a few, the central verge. So there is a central verge of trees, and there is then the road on both sides. Small victory, but feels good, and we set up a group. And, uh, like Navroz went to the, um, next big campaign that was hitting India, I went to the one before. I went to Chipko.

   23. NKNikhil Kamath23:29

       Chipko. I should just... Sorry to interrupt, Sunita-

   24. SNSunita Narain23:32

       [chuckles]

   25. NKNikhil Kamath23:32

       ... but Kalpavriksh is who I went to Narmada with.

   26. SNSunita Narain23:34

       Yeah, I know.

   27. NKNikhil Kamath23:35

       So they were-

   28. SNSunita Narain23:35

       I know, I know.

   29. BPBhumi Pednekar23:36

       Wow.

   30. SNSunita Narain23:36

       That was the-
7. 26:47 – 35:25

   What Changed in the Climate Space : Then Vs Now

   1. SPSpeaker26:47

      I ask you another question?

   2. SNSunita Narain26:48

      Yes, of course.

   3. SPSpeaker26:49

      They say bravery today is not doing what the public wants you to do, but doing what the public doesn't want you to do.

   4. SPSpeaker26:58

      Mm.

   5. SPSpeaker26:58

      Are we at a point on the planet where what the public wants to do is save the environment or save climate or change?

   6. SNSunita Narain27:07

      You've hit the nail on the head, Nikhil. I think today it's important for us, and I hope we'll come to that conversation, because I think today, when I think back on it, I think we were braver 30 years ago. We had the ability to think differently. We, we had more courage. I think now there is a lot more talk and less courage, less imagination, and I think everybody talks about climate change, and-

   7. SPSpeaker27:33

      Because it's cool now?

   8. SNSunita Narain27:35

      It's, it's to some extent cool, to some extent it's real.

   9. SPSpeaker27:40

      Mm.

   10. SNSunita Narain27:40

       There is no doubt about it.

   11. SPSpeaker27:42

       Is it one of those things that the people who are talking most about climate also understand it lesser?

   12. SNSunita Narain27:48

       No, I'm not sure-

   13. SPSpeaker27:50

       Well-

   14. SNSunita Narain27:50

       ... I would say that. I just think it's a... I think today there's just a lot more talk. It's a cacophony. Everybody's talking, but if I, and I'm sure we will discuss it, where is the action? I mean-

   15. SPSpeaker28:03

       Mm

   16. SNSunita Narain28:03

       ... when we push for clean air in Delhi-

   17. SPSpeaker28:05

       Mm

   18. SNSunita Narain28:05

       ... for instance, I was 15 years, 20 years actually, on a court-mandated committee. I had an enormous luxury. I reported directly to the judge, and I was on a committee which Navroz joined also for a while, and I basically, if we gave a report, it was listened to, and I- we pushed. We got CNG in Delhi, and that was very brave, because there was no CNG across... Compressed natural gas.

   19. SPSpeaker28:36

       Yes.

   20. SNSunita Narain28:36

       So essentially, changing the fuel-

   21. SPSpeaker28:39

       Yeah

   22. SNSunita Narain28:39

       ... from diesel to gas. We got diesel. Diesel was our bugbear. We couldn't get it banned, but we got the price differential changed. So, you know, a lot of pushing and inconvenient things were done, uh, and it is inconvenient. The point today is we want climate change sorted out. We want the world's existential issue to be solved, but we want to do that at no cost. No cost to us-

   23. SPSpeaker29:11

       Mm

   24. SNSunita Narain29:11

       ... no cost to anyone, and that's not gonna happen.

   25. SPSpeaker29:14

       Could I just come in-

   26. SNSunita Narain29:15

       Yeah

   27. SPSpeaker29:15

       ... on this question of, of bravery? Um, you know, I, I think, I see it probably, uh, uh, bravery is definitely part of the equation, but I see it slightly differently, and perhaps this also, you know, parallel tracks that Sunita and I have forged in our, in our career. I ultimately feel that a lot of the challenge is reimagining the problem and communicating it in a way that you bring the public with you. Because if you want lasting solutions, you have to have the public on board. You have to have support for what you do.

   28. SPSpeaker29:49

       Mm.

   29. SPSpeaker29:49

       And I think that's partly what's-

   30. SNSunita Narain29:51

       But Navroz-
8. 35:25 – 38:30

   What do environmentalist think about EV

   1. NKNikhil Kamath35:25

      I'm not young, but I'll add-

   2. SNSunita Narain35:26

      Yeah

   3. NKNikhil Kamath35:26

      ... myself into that category.

   4. SNSunita Narain35:27

      You're younger than me. [laughing] It's okay.

   5. NKNikhil Kamath35:29

      People looking to invest in electric vehicles or people looking for jobs in the EV industry, how hopeful are you of that industry from a 10-year lens?

   6. SNSunita Narain35:41

      So there are... I'm very hopeful that it's going to happen-

   7. NKNikhil Kamath35:45

      Mm

   8. SNSunita Narain35:45

      ... because it has to happen.

   9. NKNikhil Kamath35:46

      Yeah.

   10. SNSunita Narain35:47

       Let me put it that way.

   11. BPBhumi Pednekar35:48

       Mm.

   12. SNSunita Narain35:48

       The imperative is clear. We- why do we need EV? Let's also understand that, because, um, the rest of the world is very romantic about EV. I mean, EV in the rest, in the Western world, is largely an electrification issue, that the more you electrify and clean up your electricity source, the better it is, rather than having those decentralized many sources using oil. For us, the EV story is slightly different. For us, we need EV to clean up our air pollution.

   13. BPBhumi Pednekar36:18

       Mm.

   14. SNSunita Narain36:19

       I mean, if we get EV into our cities, we will dramatically reduce air, improve air quality. And you know, Mumbai, Delhi, now almost every city of India is choking, absolutely. So EV, for us, is an imperative, but there are two issues which I think we need to address, and address them very clearly. And one is, of course, the war that is happening between the world, the US and China, which is really about the control of-

   15. NKNikhil Kamath36:49

       The supply chain

   16. SNSunita Narain36:50

       ... uh, the supply chain-

   17. BPBhumi Pednekar36:51

       Mm

   18. SNSunita Narain36:51

       ... which is new minerals-

   19. NKNikhil Kamath36:53

       Yeah

   20. SNSunita Narain36:53

       ... technology, battery technology, lithium, cobalt, graphite, all in China.... when climate change began, Nikhil, and it's, it's just a little bit of a digression here. It's important to understand the role of trade, because for most of us, when we looked at climate change, we never saw that there was a parallel thing happening in our world, which was WTO, and free trade was beginning to happen. And as soon as China joined WTO in twenty, uh, twenty, in twenty- 2002, their emissions skyrocketed, and that's the reason why the rest-

   21. NKNikhil Kamath37:30

       Can you, can you elaborate each of these things? WTO is?

   22. SNSunita Narain37:32

       So World Trade Organization, it's basically an agreement. So you have two agreements: you have a global agreement to save the planet under climate change, you have a global agreement to do free trade.

   23. NKNikhil Kamath37:43

       Agreement between?

   24. SNSunita Narain37:45

       Between global.

   25. NKNikhil Kamath37:46

       Mm-hmm.

   26. SNSunita Narain37:46

       So this is between-

   27. NKNikhil Kamath37:47

       All nations

   28. SNSunita Narain37:47

       ... all countries-

   29. NKNikhil Kamath37:48

       Mm

   30. SNSunita Narain37:48

       ... all nations of the world signed, um, and, um, and China was not part of it. China became part of it in 2002, and it's a clear relationship between when China joined and how its emission curve went up. Now, the problem is not that China's emission curve went up, but the fact the rest of the world thought they had reduced their emissions, but they hadn't. They had exported their emissions to China-
9. 38:30 – 40:18

   What Drives Sunita Today?

   1. BPBhumi Pednekar38:30

      and US.

   2. NKNikhil Kamath38:30

      Sunita, another question to you. You were in the Times 100 Most Influential People list, and you went on Leonardo DiCaprio's documentary and spoke back... Spoke back? No. How do I-

   3. SNSunita Narain38:44

      Yeah, I didn't speak back. I just-

   4. NKNikhil Kamath38:45

      Critiqued him.

   5. SNSunita Narain38:47

      No, I critiqued cli- I told him-

   6. NKNikhil Kamath38:50

      Yeah

   7. SNSunita Narain38:50

      ... what I felt about the climate change politics-

   8. NKNikhil Kamath38:52

      Yeah

   9. SNSunita Narain38:52

      ... and how inconvenient it was.

   10. NKNikhil Kamath38:54

       So what is giving you the biggest high in your own life right now? Without filters. [laughing]

   11. SNSunita Narain39:03

       [laughing] So, I mean, I look for highs and good things that I can see happen. I'll be very clear, Nikhil, it's not easy anymore-

   12. NKNikhil Kamath39:10

       Mm

   13. SNSunita Narain39:10

       ... okay? Uh, for somebody at, who's seen... I mean, 40 years ago, when we were, when I was in Rio in 1992, it just, I keep calling it the age of innocence. We just felt it was all possible. You could go and scream, you know, "Down with Bush," you know, and-

   14. NKNikhil Kamath39:26

       Were you like this-

   15. SNSunita Narain39:26

       "It will be down with Bush!"

   16. NKNikhil Kamath39:28

       ... 40 years ago?

   17. SNSunita Narain39:28

       Yeah, I, uh-

   18. NKNikhil Kamath39:29

       Do you have a picture?

   19. SNSunita Narain39:29

       I was much worse.

   20. BPBhumi Pednekar39:29

       We'd love to have a flashback.

   21. SNSunita Narain39:31

       Much, much, much worse. [laughing]

   22. BPBhumi Pednekar39:32

       [laughing]

   23. SNSunita Narain39:32

       Much worse. I've become very, very genteel.

   24. NKNikhil Kamath39:35

       You actually have a witness.

   25. SNSunita Narain39:36

       You ask, you ask Navroz, I'm mellowed. [laughing]

   26. BPBhumi Pednekar39:41

       [laughing]

   27. SNSunita Narain39:41

       So but I think the, the, the high in my life, I mean, I went, two weeks ago, no, two months ago, I went to these villages in Andhra Pradesh-

   28. NKNikhil Kamath39:50

       Mm

   29. SNSunita Narain39:50

       ... looking at natural farming, and I wrote about it. Amazing! I mean, to meet those women, and to-

   30. NKNikhil Kamath39:56

       And why does that give you a high, subconsciously?
10. 40:18 – 45:55

    The ‘Shit Story’ : India’s Sewage Story

    1. SNSunita Narain40:18

       So we, I do a lot of work on excreta. That's one of my major areas of work, is shit. And, um, we do these shit flow diagrams. I did a two-volume book called Excreta Matters, essentially arguing that, if you don't get your excreta story right, you cannot understand, you cannot fix your water pollution. Since then-

    2. NKNikhil Kamath40:38

       I'd, I'd love to know more. How do you get your [chuckles] excreta story right?

    3. SNSunita Narain40:40

       Yeah, I, I want to know that, too. Okay, so I'll explain. Don't get me started on this, Bhumi-

    4. BPBhumi Pednekar40:44

       No, please.

    5. SNSunita Narain40:44

       You will regret it.

    6. NKNikhil Kamath40:45

       No, just-

    7. SNSunita Narain40:45

       You will regret it. [laughing]

    8. BPBhumi Pednekar40:46

       I want to know.

    9. SNSunita Narain40:47

       Okay, so-

    10. BPBhumi Pednekar40:48

        This is-

    11. SNSunita Narain40:49

        So the shit story is, uh, if you look in Mumbai-

    12. BPBhumi Pednekar40:52

        Mm.

    13. SNSunita Narain40:53

        Uh, we've done a shit flow diagram for Mumbai or Bangalore or any other-

    14. NKNikhil Kamath40:56

        [chuckles] Which city is better?

    15. SNSunita Narain40:57

        City... Huh?

    16. NKNikhil Kamath40:58

        Which one is better?

    17. SNSunita Narain40:59

        Uh, all of them are bad.

    18. NKNikhil Kamath41:00

        Okay.

    19. SNSunita Narain41:00

        All of them are bad. Most cities of India do not treat- do not have underground sewage-

    20. BPBhumi Pednekar41:05

        Mm

    21. SNSunita Narain41:05

        ... to intercept sewage and to take it to a sewage treatment plant-

    22. NKNikhil Kamath41:09

        Treatment

    23. SNSunita Narain41:09

        ... clean it up, and then take it to a river. Most cities of India do what Mirik just talked about, the decentralized energy. This is decentralized sewage treatment.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath41:20

        Yeah.

    25. SNSunita Narain41:20

        Okay? What you call on-site sewage treatment. Now, what excites me about it, and I, I, I then started, I got really excited by this, saying, "Here's the potential." I mean, if we could go to the cell phone... I mean, I'm old enough to tell you that when we were trying to get a landline for-

    26. BPBhumi Pednekar41:38

        Mm

    27. SNSunita Narain41:38

        ... CSE, for my organization, I actually had to go to Jairam Ramesh, who was OST at that time in Planning Commission, and, of course, Jairam got many... Uh, it was a payback, which I had to... But he had to sign on a piece of paper for us to get a telephone line.

    28. NKNikhil Kamath41:55

        [chuckles]

    29. BPBhumi Pednekar41:55

        Wow!

    30. SNSunita Narain41:55

        Today, all of us-
11. 45:55 – 1:01:35

    What is Climate Change? Simplified

    1. BPBhumi Pednekar45:55

       is one of our biggest water sources.

    2. NKNikhil Kamath45:56

       So one of the things I've realized talking to people is everybody has heard of the word climate change, but when I ask them to describe it to me or tell me what it is, uh, not many are able to. So the one thing we want to build is awareness. So I'm gonna go through each of you and ask you to define climate change in, say, two minutes. I'll give you my very idiotic, non-aware description of it. Sun emits rays. Each surface on the planet reflects differently the rays back. I think it's called albedo. I remember it using the word albino. When the heat is going back, it gets trapped in the atmosphere by virtue of more carbon dioxide, more methane, more water vapor, whatever, and the temperature rises. But I want each of you, in your own words, describe climate change for me. Some definition will resonate with somebody. Should we start with Navroz?

    3. NDNavroz K Dubash46:53

       Maybe let's start with, with Mirik. I'm curious to hear him.

    4. BPBhumi Pednekar46:55

       Yeah.

    5. MGMirik Gogri46:55

       So climate change is this, uh, system in which the rate of change in the temperature, on ocean ac- acidification, and the other parameters that impact any locality is higher than the ability of the people or organisms in the locality to adapt.

    6. NKNikhil Kamath47:12

       That's a good definition.

    7. SNSunita Narain47:13

       Mm. That's a nice way to put it.

    8. NKNikhil Kamath47:14

       Navroz?

    9. NDNavroz K Dubash47:16

       Well, look, I... So I, I don't want to repeat what Mirik has said on this-

    10. NKNikhil Kamath47:20

        Mm

    11. NDNavroz K Dubash47:20

        ... uh, he, I think he's explained the science-

    12. BPBhumi Pednekar47:22

        Mm

    13. NDNavroz K Dubash47:22

        ... uh, of it really well, right? But I think the key point is this: that i-i- to pick up on this point about the rate of change, we are now- the Earth is now warmer on average than at any point it's been in the last hundred thousand years.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath47:36

        Mm-hmm.

    15. NDNavroz K Dubash47:37

        If you look at any of the graphs, you just see this incredible spike right in the last-

    16. NKNikhil Kamath47:43

        30

    17. NDNavroz K Dubash47:43

        ... 30, 40 years.

    18. BPBhumi Pednekar47:44

        Mm.

    19. NDNavroz K Dubash47:45

        And it's-

    20. NKNikhil Kamath47:45

        And you're able to correlate that with human involvement.

    21. NDNavroz K Dubash47:48

        Absolutely, and I mean-

    22. NKNikhil Kamath47:48

        More carbon, hotter temperature-

    23. NDNavroz K Dubash47:50

        That's right

    24. NKNikhil Kamath47:50

        ... more climate change.

    25. NDNavroz K Dubash47:51

        So, since you asked me about the IPCC, let me explain a couple of the quite amazing science, bits of science behind this. But I, what I really want to get to is actually to move away from the scientific definition of climate change. My own definition won't be around science. But let me give you a couple of, uh, uh, examples. So one of the ways in which we know that, and you're completely right, right? We've had these cycles, the Earth has warmed, cooled, et cetera, et cetera. But there have been massive disruptions to life on Earth associated with each of these things. So we say it's natural, sure, it's natural, but the disruption is also natural, and it affects us now, uh, uh, as a species. So one of the things we've done is we look at ice core data, right? So they take literally cores of ice, digging deep down into the Earth. So the deepest is the Vostok ice core data, goes back eight hundred thousand years.

    26. BPBhumi Pednekar48:46

        Mm.

    27. NDNavroz K Dubash48:47

        Right? The ice core has kind of rings, because every layer of snowfall has a distinct pattern.

    28. BPBhumi Pednekar48:53

        Mm.

    29. NDNavroz K Dubash48:53

        So they can count how old that i- ice is. Then they look at the air bubbles trapped-

    30. BPBhumi Pednekar48:59

        Mm
12. 1:01:35 – 1:07:00

    Effects of Politics and Narratives on Climate Change

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:01:35

       of politicians who are saying climate change is false, winning elections? Who are they resonating with, and why?

    2. NDNavroz K Dubash1:01:43

       Well, it sounds like Sunita-

    3. SNSunita Narain1:01:44

       Right.

    4. NDNavroz K Dubash1:01:44

       -has an answer, but I, I, I do, too. But do you want to go first, Sunita, on this one?

    5. SNSunita Narain1:01:48

       No, no, go ahead, Navroz.

    6. NDNavroz K Dubash1:01:48

       I, I'm happy to hear yours.

    7. SNSunita Narain1:01:49

       Okay. So I, I've been thinking a lot about this.

    8. NKNikhil Kamath1:01:52

       How do you... Okay, another question while-

    9. SNSunita Narain1:01:54

       Mm

    10. NKNikhil Kamath1:01:54

        ... we're talking about this.

    11. SNSunita Narain1:01:56

        Mm.

    12. NKNikhil Kamath1:01:56

        How do you deal with politicians while you're talking about climate?

    13. SNSunita Narain1:01:59

        I think there are three things happening in the world, which is leading to more authoritarian right-wing governments coming in across the world, which is also why you're becoming more denialism on climate change is becoming easier to do. One, I think, action is getting harder now. Um, so the West had easier action, what you call low-hanging fruit. They're all gone. If you look at the United States, so what has the US done to reduce its emissions till now? The US has gone from coal, the use of coal, to the use of shale gas, okay? Now, most of its energy today comes from shale gas.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath1:02:43

        And they say that's half the amount of emissions as coal?

    15. SNSunita Narain1:02:46

        So that's again the question.

    16. NKNikhil Kamath1:02:48

        Mm.

    17. SNSunita Narain1:02:48

        So it's half the CO2 emissions, but then when you add to it the methane-

    18. NDNavroz K Dubash1:02:53

        Mm.

    19. SNSunita Narain1:02:53

        -emissions, which are also a greenhouse gas, it's hard to say-

    20. NKNikhil Kamath1:02:57

        You're talking about fracking, right?

    21. SNSunita Narain1:02:58

        Uh, you're talking about fracking-

    22. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:00

        Yeah, fracking-

    23. NDNavroz K Dubash1:03:00

        Shale.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:00

        Oil, oil and gas

    25. SNSunita Narain1:03:00

        ... you're talking about shale gas. Basically, gas, natural gas.

    26. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:03

        Mm.

    27. SNSunita Narain1:03:03

        Let's sort of-

    28. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:03

        But from the technology of fracking.

    29. SNSunita Narain1:03:05

        From the- they've moved to gas.

    30. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:06

        Mm.
13. 1:07:00 – 1:07:05

    Incentives of building low carbon economies

    1. NDNavroz K Dubash1:07:00

       now where we're teetering on the edge of an opportunity

14. 1:07:05 – 1:13:40

    Issues with Indian Electricity Distribution Companies

    1. NDNavroz K Dubash1:07:05

       story, where countries are now seeing their future economic gains-

    2. SNSunita Narain1:07:09

       Mm

    3. NDNavroz K Dubash1:07:10

       ... actually being about building low-carbon economies, partly because China has spent this last decade very assiduously building these industries.

    4. SNSunita Narain1:07:20

       Mm.

    5. NDNavroz K Dubash1:07:20

       And suddenly, the West is playing catch-up.

    6. SNSunita Narain1:07:22

       Mm.

    7. NDNavroz K Dubash1:07:22

       But they don't f- but, uh, but the, the question now has become the speed of the transition.... if you can't do it fast enough-

    8. MGMirik Gogri1:07:30

       Mm.

    9. NDNavroz K Dubash1:07:30

       -and you take on obligations, then you still impose costs on the economy.

    10. MGMirik Gogri1:07:35

        Yeah.

    11. NDNavroz K Dubash1:07:35

        And we are globally in a bit of a catch-22. So you now have a situation where the West is really retrenching. China and India is trying to get competitive in this green economy. It takes a lot of money. It takes a lot of the ability to throw massive subsidies at it. The big question for me is, India might be able to keep pace, and we can talk about this later, but what happens to Africa?

    12. MGMirik Gogri1:07:58

        Yeah.

    13. SNSunita Narain1:07:58

        Mm.

    14. NDNavroz K Dubash1:07:58

        What happens to the smaller countries? They're going to be le- they're going to be basically getting the crumbs from this, from this table of green industrial subsidies. So we might be in this dilemma where the most aggressive things to solve climate change might actually make for a more unfair world. That's the kind of tension we are facing.

    15. SNSunita Narain1:08:18

        It doesn't have to be.

    16. MGMirik Gogri1:08:19

        But to the point-

    17. NDNavroz K Dubash1:08:20

        But that's-

    18. MGMirik Gogri1:08:20

        -uh, like, the one sort of bright spot in this whole thing is, you mentioned economics-

    19. SNSunita Narain1:08:25

        Mm.

    20. MGMirik Gogri1:08:25

        -how economics will India drive.

    21. SNSunita Narain1:08:28

        Mm.

    22. MGMirik Gogri1:08:28

        So that's where if economics of climate change solutions-

    23. NDNavroz K Dubash1:08:31

        Yeah

    24. MGMirik Gogri1:08:31

        ... whether it's through some subsidies at the front, they just end up becoming better, and if you- if the world needs any sort of growth rate in the terms-

    25. SNSunita Narain1:08:38

        Mm

    26. MGMirik Gogri1:08:38

        ... that people want to use the word-

    27. NDNavroz K Dubash1:08:40

        Yeah

    28. MGMirik Gogri1:08:41

        ... you have a growth rate when you're transitioning away from all these things into something new. You have to build new assets and things like that. So once there's an economic alignment that it just makes sense, with the fact that you need to transform all these assets, I think, as you rightly mentioned, that will take over the narrative-

    29. NDNavroz K Dubash1:08:58

        That's what shifts the... That's right.

    30. MGMirik Gogri1:08:59

        And then-
15. 1:13:40 – 1:27:27

    Grid Storage : Opportunities For Entrepreneurs

    1. MGMirik Gogri1:13:40

       batteries cost. I think one important cost that has to be solved this decade, and it's, again, a point to the entrepreneurs out there, is around grid storage.

    2. NDNavroz K Dubash1:13:48

       Yeah.

    3. SNSunita Narain1:13:48

       Is about?

    4. MGMirik Gogri1:13:48

       Grid storage-

    5. SNSunita Narain1:13:49

       Yeah

    6. MGMirik Gogri1:13:49

       ... because your solar and wind can't really scale after a point if you don't have very, very good, good grid storage.

    7. NDNavroz K Dubash1:13:55

       Yeah.

    8. MGMirik Gogri1:13:55

       And I think those cost curves, uh, because I don't think lithium ion can really work in the grid for whatever its challenges are, and lithium always will get a priority to the vehicles, and again, there's a supply-demand deficit there already. Grid storage technologies, again, again, to your point of what can entrepreneurs do, I, I genuinely feel grid storage and innovation around that, that whole supply chain, non-lithium ion based, is an exciting opportunity because the amount of grid storage is, that will be required... I think India's number is, if I'm not wrong, it's around two hundred gigawatt hours by twenty thirty, and we are not even stabilize the grid, so-

    9. SNSunita Narain1:14:32

       But Mirik, if I may, you know, take this conversation forward and ask you as well on this is, so there are two problems, I mean, I'm- we're handling right now. One is, um, so we, you know, we're all passionate about decentralized solutions, and as you saw, my fecal sludge-

    10. NDNavroz K Dubash1:14:50

        Yeah

    11. SNSunita Narain1:14:50

        ... my rainwater harvesting, all that sort of really excites me to see putting things in the hands of people rather than in the hands of government. So, you know, it's, it's exciting. Build a lake, a pond, put it in the hands of village communities-

    12. MGMirik Gogri1:15:04

        Mm

    13. SNSunita Narain1:15:04

        ... to run it. So that's, that's the resource management. So some many years ago-

    14. NDNavroz K Dubash1:15:09

        Sure

    15. SNSunita Narain1:15:09

        ... and I can, we started working on mini grids, okay? Very passionate about it. Went and saw some mini grids in Chhattisgarh and other places. So I keep coming back to it because I don't want to leave it at, uh, for our research and work, but the cost is just so high.

    16. MGMirik Gogri1:15:27

        Mm.

    17. SNSunita Narain1:15:28

        I mean, at thirty rupees a unit-

    18. MGMirik Gogri1:15:30

        It's insane

    19. SNSunita Narain1:15:30

        ... it's not possible to basically replace.

    20. MGMirik Gogri1:15:33

        Yeah.

    21. SNSunita Narain1:15:33

        Now, either you had a feed-in tariff situation where the government would subsidize it, but you know, it's huge.

    22. MGMirik Gogri1:15:40

        That's what the point is, that-

    23. SNSunita Narain1:15:41

        And that's the scaling issue

    24. MGMirik Gogri1:15:42

        ... this is the decade where energy storage has to-- It has to happen to energy storage, what happened to solar and wind the last decade.

    25. SNSunita Narain1:15:50

        Yeah.

    26. MGMirik Gogri1:15:51

        And but once you hit that tipping point, in a way, of a solution-

    27. SNSunita Narain1:15:54

        So my-

    28. MGMirik Gogri1:15:55

        ... then suddenly you're off grid.

    29. SNSunita Narain1:15:56

        So my question is, and that's I'm asking myself, these-

    30. MGMirik Gogri1:15:59

        Yeah, sure
16. 1:27:27 – 1:28:42

    One thing government can do to make the Power grids better

    1. NDNavroz K Dubash1:27:27

       That's right.

    2. NKNikhil Kamath1:27:27

       One thing they can do to make the power grids of India better.

    3. NDNavroz K Dubash1:27:32

       They need to, they need to change and mandate that the distribution companies become the agents that provide this backup power, and organize their own power procurement for that purpose, right? So it's a little complicated because it's about the nature of power planning. So power planning is done today for centralized systems.

    4. NKNikhil Kamath1:27:55

       Mm.

    5. NDNavroz K Dubash1:27:56

       We need power planning for decentralized systems.

    6. NKNikhil Kamath1:27:58

       Navroz, if I can-

    7. NDNavroz K Dubash1:27:58

       And it's a different form of power planning.

    8. NKNikhil Kamath1:28:00

       If I can ask you, and it's a simple-

    9. NDNavroz K Dubash1:28:02

       Yeah.

    10. NKNikhil Kamath1:28:03

        I don't know whether it exists. Like, if you just do time of day pricing, like differential pricing-

    11. NDNavroz K Dubash1:28:08

        That's one of the things. Yeah

    12. NKNikhil Kamath1:28:08

        ... then, like, that's the simple thing.

    13. NDNavroz K Dubash1:28:10

        Yeah.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath1:28:10

        Like, if you just have differential pricing based on the generation-

    15. NDNavroz K Dubash1:28:13

        Yeah

    16. NKNikhil Kamath1:28:13

        ... then automatically the demand shifting also may start happening, because then if you-

    17. NDNavroz K Dubash1:28:16

        That's right

    18. NKNikhil Kamath1:28:17

        ... in the night. So I think, for me, that can be one... It doesn't happen, right? Right now, or?

    19. NDNavroz K Dubash1:28:21

        No. So time, so time of day pricing-

    20. NKNikhil Kamath1:28:23

        Ah

    21. NDNavroz K Dubash1:28:23

        ... is one important, important thing that-

    22. NKNikhil Kamath1:28:25

        Would you say that's the easiest low-hanging fruit?

    23. NDNavroz K Dubash1:28:29

        Um, [sighs] it, it is definitely one of the things to, to put in place. I don't know whether we know enough to know exactly, you know, which is the best lever to pull. We have to pull three or four. But I know we have to

17. 1:28:42 – 1:31:20

    How to incentivise distribution companies

    1. NDNavroz K Dubash1:28:42

       change the incentives for the distribution companies. Right now, the distribution companies see renewable energy, uh, by individuals or by small, uh, entities as actually a threat to them. But the second thing I think is really interesting and gets to the core problem I told you about, uh, uh, earlier, right? Which is when-- Which is providing electricity... We're, we're in a loop right now of providing bad quality electricity to poor people who say: "Well, why on earth should I pay? I don't even get electricity when I really need it." And because they don't pay, then they get even less service, right? We need to be actually invoking a very different conversation around electricity, which is not electricity for the sake of electricity, but electricity as a service. And this goes all the way back to somebody, Sunita will, will, will know, a guy called, uh, Dr Amulya Reddy, who's sort of the father of this way of thinking about electricity as a service. So the way we've been thinking about it in our organization is, what if you talked about not providing electricity for the sake of electrons, but you're providing ways of increasing the productive capabilities of people in rural areas? So you're thinking about not subsidizing consumption of electricity, but you subsidize the things that make electricity productive, like cold chains, food processing, small industry. You subsidize that, and then you don't have to subsidize the electricity itself, and then people have an incentive to actually pay for it, right? Because they're... If, if it, if it doesn't-- if it's not good quality electricity, they can't make money. You can also bridge that with a renewable energy story and have intermediate companies coming in and saying: "We will finance and find ways of bringing in this product, and we'll sort of amortize it so you can pay us over time." So the idea of providing not electricity, but-

    2. NKNikhil Kamath1:30:40

       Can I ask you something?

    3. NDNavroz K Dubash1:30:41

       ... enhancing productivity from electricity is the shape.

    4. NKNikhil Kamath1:30:42

       All of, all of what you're saying is sounding very simple. Why isn't it happening?

    5. NDNavroz K Dubash1:30:47

       Well-

    6. NKNikhil Kamath1:30:47

       If it was that simple.

    7. NDNavroz K Dubash1:30:49

       Well, I think partly it does take just a, a question of reimagining, and partly you have institutions, in particular the distribution companies, who see their, their incentive is in selling electrons and in not selling electrons to people who are loss-making. That's the dynamic we are in right now, right? If you're going to lose money for every electron you sell, you're selling it at one rupee, it costs you three fifty-six, you're going to find all kinds of ways not to sell it. So shifting the incentive structure is really important.

    8. NKNikhil Kamath1:31:19

       Okay, moving on.

18. 1:31:20 – 1:33:50

    What is the Relationship between Pre-industrial temperatures and carbon

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:31:21

       Uh, next topic, carbon concentration in the atmosphere. 1800s, it used to be two ninety ppm. They say the world is okay at three fifty. Right now, we're at four twenty. Uh, there is some evidence to say that higher percentage of carbon, higher the temperature. Now, one point one, one point two degree is the rise so far recorded, and everybody's talking about where we will be by two thousand and fifty.

    2. NKNikhil Kamath1:31:54

       ... uh, 1.5 to 2 seems okay. Anything higher sounds crazy. Is that broadly right? 1.5 is okay?

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:32:03

       It's okay in the sense of?

    4. NKNikhil Kamath1:32:04

       The 1.5 is doable.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:32:06

       Oh, okay.

    6. NKNikhil Kamath1:32:07

       1.5 is doable-

    7. BPBhumi Pednekar1:32:08

       But that's also so subjective-

    8. NKNikhil Kamath1:32:08

       Meaning-

    9. NKNikhil Kamath1:32:09

       Right?

    10. NKNikhil Kamath1:32:10

        And by the way, it's 2100, I think, the average-

    11. BPBhumi Pednekar1:32:12

        Yeah

    12. NKNikhil Kamath1:32:12

        ... or 2100 or 2050 they are saying. I think the sense is 2.6 is sort of the, 2.6 to 3 is the business as usual scenario-

    13. NDNavroz K Dubash1:32:21

        Which-

    14. NKNikhil Kamath1:32:21

        For which-

    15. NDNavroz K Dubash1:32:22

        Business as usual in terms of what-

    16. NKNikhil Kamath1:32:23

        2100. I think everything is 2100.

    17. NDNavroz K Dubash1:32:24

        In terms of what we're doing now.

    18. NKNikhil Kamath1:32:25

        Yeah, yeah.

    19. NDNavroz K Dubash1:32:26

        Right now, we're on track for somewhere around 2.6.

    20. NKNikhil Kamath1:32:28

        Okay, paint me the dystopian picture of 20% of the world dying. What temperature increase is that?

    21. SNSunita Narain1:32:38

        I don't think that's a, that's a question that anyone can answer.

    22. NKNikhil Kamath1:32:41

        Not with any certainty.

    23. SNSunita Narain1:32:42

        Because, quite frankly, that's also been one of the problems, and that's why you're getting a lot of people saying climate change doesn't happen.

    24. BPBhumi Pednekar1:32:49

        Mm.

    25. SNSunita Narain1:32:49

        Climate change is not about that image that you have, that sort of very cinema image that you have, that you're going to get these vast numbers-

    26. NKNikhil Kamath1:32:57

        Dramatic

    27. SNSunita Narain1:32:57

        ... of people just dying and just... I mean, we saw that in COVID, okay? So we have lived through it.

    28. NKNikhil Kamath1:33:03

        Mm.

    29. SNSunita Narain1:33:03

        We have seen COVID happen-

    30. NKNikhil Kamath1:33:05

        Mm
19. 1:33:50 – 1:46:22

    Why doesn’t bollywood make movies around climate

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:33:50

       a question?

    2. SNSunita Narain1:33:50

       That's something to understand.

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:33:51

       Like Hollywood-

    4. SNSunita Narain1:33:52

       Mm.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:33:52

       ... back in the day-

    6. SNSunita Narain1:33:54

       Mm

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:33:54

       ... has made smoking cool-

    8. SNSunita Narain1:33:56

       Mm.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath1:33:57

       Has made diamonds expensive-

    10. SNSunita Narain1:33:59

        Mm.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath1:34:00

        Has defined what we perceive to be attractive today-

    12. SNSunita Narain1:34:04

        Mm

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:34:04

        ... beyond symmetry, if one might say. Why doesn't Bollywood, your industry... You've done so much work, right? Like social causes, movies around that. Don't you think it's a good way to reach a large plethora of people by making movies around climate?

    14. BPBhumi Pednekar1:34:22

        Absolutely, but I feel it comes from the fact that a lot of people feel they're not gonna be affected by it. You know, because we feel that because we are protected by the wealth that we have, there will be some elite institution that we believe in that is gonna come and solve this, but that's not the case. As, uh, ma'am said, you know, as she rightly said, that climate change is something that is gonna be a great equalizer. And there'll only be enough narrative around it, which I really feel is missing, especially in the industry that I am from, because people feel it's not gonna affect them. You know, we live in a world... We live in our bubble, and our bubble gives us a lot of comfort, right? We are still- we have access to the best of things. I feel the narrative will only shift when we are truly affected by it.

    15. SNSunita Narain1:35:10

        Mm.

    16. BPBhumi Pednekar1:35:10

        And that's what happens.

    17. SNSunita Narain1:35:11

        Mm.

    18. BPBhumi Pednekar1:35:11

        As, as when we started our conversation, that's exactly what I said, that even today, when I am in rooms, and this conversation has been so educational for me, 'cause I'm just taking in so many different perspectives, and I'm not privy to information like so, right? What my path in the fight is, that I'm just trying to get as many people like me to start talking about it.

    19. SNSunita Narain1:35:37

        Mm.

    20. BPBhumi Pednekar1:35:37

        You know, when it, it needs to become popular culture.

    21. SNSunita Narain1:35:41

        Mm.

    22. BPBhumi Pednekar1:35:41

        That's the impact that media or films have, right? I want climate change and all the effects, and I need people to be fearful in many ways, and I really hope that there are many more films that are made. In fact, there was a film-

    23. NKNikhil Kamath1:35:57

        Thank you

    24. BPBhumi Pednekar1:35:57

        ... called Kadvi Hawa that was made.

    25. NDNavroz K Dubash1:35:59

        Yeah.

    26. SNSunita Narain1:35:59

        Mm.

    27. BPBhumi Pednekar1:35:59

        It was-

    28. SNSunita Narain1:36:00

        Yeah

    29. BPBhumi Pednekar1:36:00

        ... such a phenomenal film, but a film like so didn't really... It didn't really do well. It didn't reach a large audience because it also makes it... People, people feel they rather have an ostrich mentality, where they behave and they pretend like everything is okay around us. You know, , but that's not gonna happen.

    30. NKNikhil Kamath1:36:22

        Do you think fear sells more or does greed when it comes to movies?
20. 1:46:22 – 1:49:55

    Why we are focussed on optics more than action

    1. SNSunita Narain1:46:22

       we are getting too... It's- we're getting too glib about this whole thing. It's very, you know, because I'm a climate change activist, because climate change is important, everybody need. So then everybody is into net zero.

    2. NDNavroz K Dubash1:46:35

       Yeah.

    3. SNSunita Narain1:46:35

       Everything is net zero, everything is carbon neutral, means that I can do everything I want, but I've not somehow emitted or I've bought emissions. Mm. It's not adding up, and I think the tr-

    4. NDNavroz K Dubash1:46:47

       Yeah.

    5. SNSunita Narain1:46:47

       I mean, I'm only saying this because, you know, we can- we just don't have time to lose anymore in anything which is glib and, and, and doesn't add up, and we don't have time to waste. I mean-

    6. NDNavroz K Dubash1:47:01

       No, I, I just want to-

    7. SNSunita Narain1:47:02

       Uh

    8. NDNavroz K Dubash1:47:02

       ... query you, Sunita. I, I mean, I completely agree with you in the world that we work in the most-

    9. SNSunita Narain1:47:07

       Yeah

    10. NDNavroz K Dubash1:47:07

        ... right? Which is the mitigation, uh, uh, side of things. And there's this, been this glibness and this, like, you know, the narrative has caught on, and basically what it's mean is that more and more people and companies are trying to show that they are acting without doing anything fundamentally different on the ground, right? I think on adaptation, it has the potential to be a little bit different-

    11. SNSunita Narain1:47:28

        No, but can I... Let's keep-

    12. NDNavroz K Dubash1:47:29

        It automatically becomes much more real.

    13. SNSunita Narain1:47:30

        But keep the, no, but keep the mitigation story also. I think there's a lot of real stuff we could do, okay?

    14. MGMirik Gogri1:47:36

        Absolutely.

    15. SNSunita Narain1:47:36

        There's a lot of real stuff that companies-

    16. NDNavroz K Dubash1:47:38

        Yeah

    17. SNSunita Narain1:47:38

        ... can do, that people can do. There is, there, I mean, there are lots of things can be done that can reduce emissions. Uh, maybe you will not have the same wealth, but you would have wellbeing.

    18. NDNavroz K Dubash1:47:51

        Mm.

    19. SNSunita Narain1:47:51

        And there is- we need to understand that it's possible. My problem is that we don't tend to do it, and we tend to be able to get away with it. Mm. And that's where I feel that one of the biggest roles that we are missing in the climate change is the ability to be able to call out a spade, a spade. Mm. I mean, when Greta started her movement, I think the shock value of having a young person say so, so clearly, so loudly, and with so much conviction, that, you know, this is just not adding up. Unfortunately, she still remains-

    20. NDNavroz K Dubash1:48:29

        Yeah

    21. SNSunita Narain1:48:29

        ... incredible, but there is now a growing movement of, not you,

    22. NDNavroz K Dubash1:48:33

        [chuckles]

    23. SNSunita Narain1:48:34

        but I can see you having done something, and therefore, there's a realness that I can see. But I see a lot of young people who are just getting co-opted by the system- Mm ... by which they're part of the system. They go there, they say the things- Mm ... but they're not, it's not adding up. Mm. So I'm just saying my, my advice just simply is that I think we cannot afford to lose another decade in sweet nothingness.

    24. MGMirik Gogri1:49:01

        Yeah, no, but Sunita, to your, to the point you were making of co-opting, I agree with you a hundred percent. Somebody wise once said: "Don't fear the man who has a hundred books in a library, fear the person who has one book and has never read it."

    25. SNSunita Narain1:49:15

        Mm.

    26. MGMirik Gogri1:49:15

        And I feel like society at large is like that today. Unfortunately, this ecosystem is also filled with a lot of people like that.

    27. SNSunita Narain1:49:23

        But I think we need, we- I think we have enough people on who are not like that.

    28. NDNavroz K Dubash1:49:27

        Mm.

    29. SNSunita Narain1:49:27

        And I think to me, um, when I think back, I think the fact is that we need to give those people more voice, uh, more space, because otherwise you end up with just being able to get away by believing that you're making a difference, but you're really not making a difference. And I believe a difference can be made. It's not as if I've opted out of the system and said, "Nothing is possible-

    30. NDNavroz K Dubash1:49:52

        Yeah
21. 1:49:55 – 1:52:38

    What are Carbon Credits and Offsetting ?

    1. SNSunita Narain1:49:55

       study called Discredited, looking at the voluntary carbon market. Now, I very strongly believe in the role of markets and carbon crediting to make transformation. Why? Because you need money, and you need to get large amount of money for the kind of technology- Mm ... and other needs that we have. Now, if you could mobilize the market to say, "Okay, I can- I am interested in getting an offset." An offset simply means that I, um, I emit- Mm ... but if you reduce your emission... then I will buy that emission reduction from you, put it in my account, and I take the credit from it.

    2. MGMirik Gogri1:50:36

       Mm.

    3. SPSpeaker1:50:36

       Do you think the means of offsetting is accurate?

    4. SNSunita Narain1:50:39

       So, you know, when I study, it's a sh- it's a scam.

    5. SPSpeaker1:50:43

       'Cause in India-

    6. SNSunita Narain1:50:45

       It's not even a, it's not even-

    7. SPSpeaker1:50:45

       We tried-

    8. SNSunita Narain1:50:46

       It's such a fraud, I cannot tell you.

    9. SPSpeaker1:50:47

       We tried to invest in it.

    10. SNSunita Narain1:50:48

        Ah.

    11. SPSpeaker1:50:48

        The first company we found was somebody selling stoves which are more efficient-

    12. MGMirik Gogri1:50:53

        Stoves

    13. SPSpeaker1:50:53

        ... the, the large Indian company, and they were playing that off to be an offset.

    14. MGMirik Gogri1:50:58

        Yeah.

    15. SNSunita Narain1:50:58

        No, but, but can I say-

    16. SPSpeaker1:50:59

        It's globally.

    17. SNSunita Narain1:51:00

        Can I-

    18. SPSpeaker1:51:00

        It's globally now.

    19. SNSunita Narain1:51:01

        But it's, yeah, it's not just India story.

    20. MGMirik Gogri1:51:04

        But I think it's maturing in the- it's- this is the stock of the industry, which is, that happen. I am hopeful that it will at least mature in the down the line.

    21. SPSpeaker1:51:10

        I don't know. I'd be very surprised.

    22. SNSunita Narain1:51:10

        It will not mature unless you have rules-

    23. MGMirik Gogri1:51:12

        Yeah

    24. SNSunita Narain1:51:12

        ... unless you have integrity-

    25. MGMirik Gogri1:51:14

        Because of rules-

    26. SNSunita Narain1:51:14

        ... you have regulation. I mean, the, the industry today is not doing... I mean, they're basically saying good things. I mean, they're saying, "We're investing in a smokeless-

    27. SPSpeaker1:51:23

        Rainforest

    28. SNSunita Narain1:51:23

        ... chula." So giving you a, uh, a chula-

    29. SPSpeaker1:51:26

        Mm

    30. SNSunita Narain1:51:26

        ... which uses less wood, therefore reduces the amount of wood that you use. We are investing in trees that are planted. All good ideas.
22. 1:52:38 – 1:53:10

    Nikhil Summarises the Episode so far

    1. SPSpeaker1:52:38

       yeah. So let me just summarize where we are, because this is quite long. [chuckles] We started with identifying what climate change is. We then went into energy transition being the real solution. We spoke about solar, we spoke about wind, we spoke about what's wrong with the grid. Uh, we're debating fission, fusion now, and the likelihood of it working. Next, we will move on to things like mitigation, geoengineering, what worked in the ozone layer, how did we solve that problem, and things like that,

23. 1:53:10 – 2:04:40

    Mirik’s view on nuclear fission and fusion

    1. SPSpeaker1:53:10

       but go for fission, fusion.

    2. MGMirik Gogri1:53:11

       Uh, so I think fission is definitely, and, again, this is my sense, fission is definitely an important part of the solution, and I think it really needs to step up. And I think apart from Germany, all the countries [chuckles] are going out, down that route. I think the Generation IV reactors, which are the small modular reactors, and with thorium coming in, in fact, I think we are investors in nuclear fission and fusion both, uh, itself. So I think overall, I am for fission specifically, and the SMRs, and this is like NTPC of India has also mentioned that they would want to look at those solutions. And fission, we have been doing it for the past fifty, sixty years, and if you look at the track record, it's pretty good in terms of-

    3. SPSpeaker1:53:51

       I think people are extrapolating something like one disaster with the repercussions over hundreds of years, and counting that as the true cost, and that is mitigating the fission-fusion effort.

    4. MGMirik Gogri1:54:03

       So-

    5. SPSpeaker1:54:04

       I have a counterview to this, but-

    6. MGMirik Gogri1:54:05

       Yeah, yeah

    7. SPSpeaker1:54:05

       ... go ahead.

    8. MGMirik Gogri1:54:06

       Go ahead. I, I know we, we had a discussion-

    9. SPSpeaker1:54:08

       Yeah

    10. MGMirik Gogri1:54:08

        ... in the past, yes. Uh, but, uh, I, I think though, again, these are the kind of narratives that are, from my angle, crea- being created, and that's why you need to look at the data. Because if you are not putting a power plant, nuclear power plant, you are effectively, right now, for the base load, consuming fossil fuels. So in a way, by saying that this is not right, you are effectively allowing X number of deaths from air pollution and all those things to happen. So, and in fact, I don't know the numbers, but it's like billions of tons of CO2 have been saved because there has been a nuclear fission industry. Coming to fusion, fusion has the classic joke of it's always 30 years away. Uh, but I think-

    11. SPSpeaker1:54:44

        But for the first time, it isn't 30 years away.

    12. MGMirik Gogri1:54:46

        I think. [chuckles]

    13. SPSpeaker1:54:46

        You think?

    14. MGMirik Gogri1:54:47

        Uh, so again, I don't think till 2050 it can create a scalable impact. But my-

    15. SPSpeaker1:54:52

        Superficially, we are thinking-

    16. MGMirik Gogri1:54:53

        My sense is-

    17. SPSpeaker1:54:53

        ... fusion might be possible, if not in the next twenty, thirty years.

    18. MGMirik Gogri1:54:57

        I would say fusion is not the solution to the climate crisis right now, but it's an important tool when you go beyond 2050 to 2100, for that, that society, which again-

    19. SPSpeaker1:55:08

        But fission is a tool right now.

    20. MGMirik Gogri1:55:09

        Fission is... I, again, we can counter, but, uh, I think we should debate it, definitely. But I think it is a tool, for sure.

    21. SPSpeaker1:55:15

        You are into fusion. You know, [clears throat] like he said, fusion is always 30 years away. In India, there's also been a God-given number-

    22. MGMirik Gogri1:55:20

        But for the first time, we had fusion.

    23. SPSpeaker1:55:22

        Uh, huh, but-

    24. MGMirik Gogri1:55:23

        But that's, uh-

    25. SPSpeaker1:55:23

        But, but, but-

    26. MGMirik Gogri1:55:23

        Net energy gain, not the net system gain.

    27. SPSpeaker1:55:26

        You, you know, the carbon budget for 1.5 is about 500 gigatons.

    28. MGMirik Gogri1:55:32

        Explain.

    29. SPSpeaker1:55:33

        Okay.

    30. MGMirik Gogri1:55:33

        What is 1.5?
24. 2:04:40 – 2:05:40

    Way Forward for Developing Nations

    1. NDNavroz K Dubash2:04:41

       most effective way forward is shifts on the demand side-

    2. MGMirik Gogri2:04:45

       Yeah, that's true

    3. NDNavroz K Dubash2:04:46

       ... which India is really well-placed to take advantage of because I think you were saying it earlier, Sunita, we haven't locked into things. We haven't fully built out our cities. We haven't established our behavioral patterns. You know, how we build our cities, how we light, how we create architectural norms, these are things that are actually the cheapest with the shortest turnaround time. So one of the interesting things is consumer technologies typically have much shorter technology turnaround times because they have shorter life-

    4. MGMirik Gogri2:05:16

       Yeah

    5. NDNavroz K Dubash2:05:16

       ... than supply technologies. So you can actually-

    6. MGMirik Gogri2:05:19

       Iterate.

    7. NDNavroz K Dubash2:05:20

       I- iterate much faster, right? So, and for a developing country, those shifts in consumption patterns have to be about shifts that also enhance development, the kinds of things you're talking about when it comes to waste.

    8. MGMirik Gogri2:05:36

       I'm going to bring it back to our target crowd.

    9. NDNavroz K Dubash2:05:38

       Mm.

    10. MGMirik Gogri2:05:39

        A twenty-year-old

25. 2:05:40 – 2:11:45

    How can a 20-year-old contribute to climate action today?

    1. MGMirik Gogri2:05:40

       boy or girl who wants to start a career here or a business here. In all the energy transition pathways we spoke about, what would you recommend? So I think for my sense, uh, bioenergy and everything around to do with bioenergy, waste management, and circularity. I think if you look at these three elements, which are sort of interconnected in a ways because it promotes circularity, I think that's, in India, a very right problem to solve, and I think given the kind of audience also in terms of knowledge, better knowledge of the supply chain, better local on-ground, uh, implementation, operational challenges, uh, that will be my at least.

    2. SNSunita Narain2:06:20

       So for me, my only advice is, in India, I think what has really been important has been when we have been very frugal in our engineering-

    3. MGMirik Gogri2:06:30

       Yeah

    4. SNSunita Narain2:06:31

       ... looking for answers that work for us. I mean, what Mirik said is what I would like to talk about, which is really, you know, the, not just the fact that you take waste and you make, uh, energy out of, but you have so much happening in India where you're beginning to do things completely differently from the rest of the world, and I think that's the power of imagination. I can name, I can tell you of many cases where people have taken on ventures, where they are doing upcycling of waste material-

    5. NDNavroz K Dubash2:07:04

       Mm.

    6. SNSunita Narain2:07:04

       ... where they are doing-- I mean, there is this young person I met recently who's doing this amazing job of, he's basically sourcing all the flowers that are thrown out of temples, and he is making-

    7. MGMirik Gogri2:07:16

       Full, full agree.

    8. NDNavroz K Dubash2:07:16

       Yeah.

    9. SNSunita Narain2:07:17

       And he is making agarbattis out of it.

    10. NDNavroz K Dubash2:07:19

        That's cool.

    11. SNSunita Narain2:07:19

        Okay?

    12. NDNavroz K Dubash2:07:20

        Yes.

    13. SNSunita Narain2:07:20

        Uh, there are huge opportunities, but again, those agarbattis are affordable. They can be used by large numbers of people. They, they, they work for environment. I, I see incredible work happening in this country by the young, and I think they're very different from my generation because they're much more connected to the question of climate change, to the need to do something urgently, but also much more nimble in thinking.

    14. NDNavroz K Dubash2:07:52

        So I, I'll, I'll give you an area of opportunity. So I, a- and this comes back to something I said earlier. I think the scope for decentralized energy services that enhance productivity in rural areas-

    15. MGMirik Gogri2:08:08

        Like the solar for agriculture

    16. NDNavroz K Dubash2:08:10

        ... is, is a really huge, uh, issue. But the general point I would make-

    17. MGMirik Gogri2:08:14

        So you would suggest to a young person that way?

    18. NDNavroz K Dubash2:08:16

        Create a company. So there's, so there's this guy we both know-

    19. MGMirik Gogri2:08:19

        Which goes to farmers, takes a solar thing and says-

    20. NDNavroz K Dubash2:08:21

        So Harish Hande from SELCO. SELCO is a great example of a small company where Harish Hande has talked about using renewable energy to provide development gains, whether it's, uh, uh, uh, cold storage for medicines and vaccines-

    21. SNSunita Narain2:08:36

        Mm

    22. NDNavroz K Dubash2:08:36

        ... uh, whether it's for productivity enhancement, whether it's for agricultural processing, and figuring out not just, and this is where I comes up with the, that it's not that I'm technology phobe-

    23. MGMirik Gogri2:08:46

        Yeah, yeah

    24. NDNavroz K Dubash2:08:46

        ... Mirik, by any means, right? But you have to build out the institutional structure-

    25. MGMirik Gogri2:08:50

        No, we hear you.

    26. SNSunita Narain2:08:50

        Yeah

    27. NDNavroz K Dubash2:08:51

        ... the, the case.

    28. SNSunita Narain2:08:51

        Absolutely.

    29. NDNavroz K Dubash2:08:51

        You have to make sure that the politics of it work-

    30. MGMirik Gogri2:08:53

        Yeah.
26. 2:11:45 – 2:13:47

    What are some forums for engaging in climate change discussions?

    1. NKNikhil Kamath2:11:45

       I may ask you guys, if I'm a young person and I want to participate in conversations around this, like, I want to talk to you on a forum, I want to talk to you on a forum, I want to talk to you guys, where do I go? Like, just to-

    2. NDNavroz K Dubash2:11:58

       Well-

    3. SNSunita Narain2:11:58

       You, you should read Down to Earth. [chuckles]

    4. NDNavroz K Dubash2:12:00

       And, well, and Co- COVID has-

    5. NKNikhil Kamath2:12:01

       [chuckles]

    6. NDNavroz K Dubash2:12:01

       ... COVID has actually really expanded, ironically-

    7. NKNikhil Kamath2:12:04

       Are there, like, online forums?

    8. NDNavroz K Dubash2:12:05

       Where-

    9. BPBhumi Pednekar2:12:05

       Yeah, huge

    10. NDNavroz K Dubash2:12:06

        ... everybody does webinars.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath2:12:06

        Which ones? Which ones?

    12. NDNavroz K Dubash2:12:07

        Everybody does webinars now.

    13. SNSunita Narain2:12:09

        Yeah, there's some-

    14. NKNikhil Kamath2:12:09

        Like two-way, two-way conversation, if I want to be a part of the community?

    15. SNSunita Narain2:12:12

        So webinars, I think a lot of our institutions are doing-

    16. NDNavroz K Dubash2:12:15

        Yeah

    17. SNSunita Narain2:12:15

        ... uh, open webinar. I mean, the good thing with COVID-

    18. NKNikhil Kamath2:12:17

        Can you name some good ones, like the funds that come to your mind first?

    19. NDNavroz K Dubash2:12:21

        Well, I mean, uh, I think all of our organizations, where, where I was, the Center for Policy Research, the new organization we set up, Sustainable Futures Collaborative-

    20. NKNikhil Kamath2:12:28

        Infinitheum

    21. NDNavroz K Dubash2:12:29

        ... uh, but TERI, uh, all the others in our ecosystem, everything is now open acce- open access in, uh, in terms of webinars.

    22. SNSunita Narain2:12:35

        Yeah, we reach out to huge numbers of people.

    23. NKNikhil Kamath2:12:37

        Mm.

    24. MGMirik Gogri2:12:37

        I, I'll take a different lens. Like, lot of climate tech VCs are doing mixers. Specifically, I'm talking about Bangalore and Mumbai areas, and-

    25. NKNikhil Kamath2:12:45

        What's a mixer?

    26. MGMirik Gogri2:12:46

        So it's basically a, sort of a dinner, uh, not dinner, but it's people meet up and-

    27. BPBhumi Pednekar2:12:51

        Oh, they have singles mixers.

    28. MGMirik Gogri2:12:53

        Huh, sort of. There's cl-

    29. NKNikhil Kamath2:12:54

        Really?

    30. MGMirik Gogri2:12:54

        ... climate dating also is something-
27. 2:13:47 – 2:22:05

    Can we solve for Climate Change the same way we did for ozone?

    1. NKNikhil Kamath2:13:47

       topic, uh, what did we do right with the ozone issue? Ozone was, like, this world-ending issue many years ago.

    2. NDNavroz K Dubash2:13:54

       Yeah.

    3. SNSunita Narain2:13:55

       Well, it's very-

    4. NDNavroz K Dubash2:13:56

       It's not a-

    5. SNSunita Narain2:13:57

       ... clear.

    6. NKNikhil Kamath2:13:57

       Yeah.

    7. SNSunita Narain2:13:57

       I mean, it's a very simple story, but a very clear story. It does not have the lessons for climate change, so that is something we need to start and understand very clearly.

    8. NKNikhil Kamath2:14:08

       Okay.

    9. NDNavroz K Dubash2:14:08

       May even have set us on the wrong course.

    10. SNSunita Narain2:14:08

        And we need to understand what-

    11. BPBhumi Pednekar2:14:10

        Oh, really?

    12. SNSunita Narain2:14:11

        ... what has happened with ozone actually not only does not work for climate change, but we have, may have, exactly as Navroz is saying, we may have derailed-

    13. NDNavroz K Dubash2:14:21

        Yeah

    14. SNSunita Narain2:14:22

        ... the climate change action because of the action. So what happened in ozone? We had a chemical made by a multinational, which was destroying the world's-

    15. NDNavroz K Dubash2:14:31

        Ozone layer

    16. SNSunita Narain2:14:32

        ... ozone layer.

    17. BPBhumi Pednekar2:14:32

        Mm.

    18. SNSunita Narain2:14:32

        Okay? That same multinational came up with an alternative which only made sure that the ozone layer was less destroyed.

    19. BPBhumi Pednekar2:14:42

        Mm.

    20. SNSunita Narain2:14:43

        Okay? But there was an alternative technology available from the same multinational.

    21. BPBhumi Pednekar2:14:49

        Mm.

    22. SNSunita Narain2:14:49

        Okay? And many more such companies that came on, DuPont and many others that came up. Now, the global consensus around it was, we need to do something, because the ozone layer is, uh, being damaged. We need to repair it. For that, we need to phase out this technology.... and to phase out this technology, we need to phase in the new technology, which now is being held also on proprietary grounds by this same company which made the first technology. So what was the deal? The deal was that money would be put in to buy the technology, which was in proprietary hands. Public money would be used, and that technology would then be given to countries which had a 10-year lead time to catch up. So you took public money, you had a problem that was created by a company, that company was ne- not held to account.

    23. NDNavroz K Dubash2:15:46

        Which company?

    24. SNSunita Narain2:15:47

        DuPont.

    25. NDNavroz K Dubash2:15:48

        DuPont.

    26. SNSunita Narain2:15:48

        Okay? They were not held to ... ICICI and DuPont. Uh, they were not held to account. They were not told that they had damaged the ozone layer. Polluter pay should, uh, operate. They should be asked to pay for it. In fact, the global agreement was that now that you have found the new technology, we will buy that from you and replace your old technology with it. Okay? And we have gone through four variations of this now, by the time we have reached today, HFC-134a-

    27. NDNavroz K Dubash2:16:16

        Now, HF4s are also coming in.

    28. SNSunita Narain2:16:17

        Which, now HF4s are coming.

    29. NDNavroz K Dubash2:16:18

        What is HF4? Uh-

    30. SNSunita Narain2:16:20

        Each one of them are new chemicals, which are basically-
28. 2:22:05 – 2:31:08

    Are carbon capture projects the future?

    1. SPSpeaker2:22:05

       Carbon capture projects, do they have a future? Are they, uh, legitimately a possibility that can curtail some of the ill effects?

    2. MGMirik Gogri2:22:16

       So, like, in carbon capture at source-

    3. SNSunita Narain2:22:18

       Mm

    4. MGMirik Gogri2:22:18

       ... definitely has some role to play.

    5. SPSpeaker2:22:20

       Right.

    6. MGMirik Gogri2:22:20

       So again, in cement you will require, when you go from CO2 to chemicals and, say, sustainable aviation fuel, e-fuels, and all those, that is definitely there. Direct air capture, which is there, uh, I think it is just too energy intensive. I think it is like the current numbers are, it's three megawatt hours. Again, not taking, not taking the numbers, it's just too energy intensive right now. I really don't see a pathway to energy intensity reducing so that it can be really scaled up, uh, until-

    7. SNSunita Narain2:22:51

       No

    8. MGMirik Gogri2:22:51

       ... some new technology comes in, it's-

    9. SPSpeaker2:22:52

       I'll give you a funny, uh, story around this. There are people in Bombay, some kid pitched us this company, which is doing carbon capture, and he's putting it in parks and stuff like that. People in places like Delhi, Bombay are attempting it, young guys, which is quite interesting.

    10. MGMirik Gogri2:23:07

        No, you can. So basically, fundamentally, it's not a difficult technology. If I take a... Again, slightly technical, if I take a base and just rotate air a- around it, you will capture some carbon dioxide because it will react to it, and you get it captured. So it's not a impossible technology, it's a simple technology, but is it scalable?

    11. SPSpeaker2:23:24

        It costs.

    12. MGMirik Gogri2:23:25

        That's when the energy budget comes in, and then it's quite high so far. Having said that, in a lot of the IPCC reports, I don't know, but they have mentioned that you require some sort of carbon capture as well in the later years at least.

    13. SNSunita Narain2:23:37

        So planting trees-

    14. SPSpeaker2:23:39

        So I just say-

    15. SNSunita Narain2:23:39

        ... captures carbon as well.

    16. MGMirik Gogri2:23:41

        Mm.

    17. SNSunita Narain2:23:41

        Okay? I mean, this is the point. There's nothing against carbon capture.

    18. MGMirik Gogri2:23:46

        Mm.

    19. SNSunita Narain2:23:46

        Okay, the point is, what method are you going to use? How energy intensive it's going to be, how affordable is it going to be, how scalable is it going to be?

    20. MGMirik Gogri2:23:54

        I think the key, key element is-

    21. SNSunita Narain2:23:56

        And keeping in mind 2030.

    22. SPSpeaker2:23:56

        But, let me just, doing carbon capture using fossil fuels.

    23. MGMirik Gogri2:24:00

        Mm.

    24. SPSpeaker2:24:00

        Not like trees, which are using solar energy.

    25. MGMirik Gogri2:24:02

        But you know, you know what, it's open the-

    26. SNSunita Narain2:24:02

        No, so carbon capture using fossil fuel is a very different thing, where you're saying, "I have-

    27. SPSpeaker2:24:07

        I build this machine which-

    28. SNSunita Narain2:24:08

        ... a power plant."

    29. SPSpeaker2:24:08

        Yeah.

    30. SNSunita Narain2:24:08

        I have a power plant-
29. 2:31:08 – 2:34:45

    Can Geoengineering Be Effective in Addressing Global Issues?

    1. SNSunita Narain2:31:08

       Hmm.

    2. SPSpeaker2:31:09

       It could be adding sulfur in the stratosphere, covering ice with limestone, trying to tweak the after effects of climate. Thoughts, anybody?

    3. SNSunita Narain2:31:19

       I've never looked at it. I have no clue.

    4. MGMirik Gogri2:31:21

       So, so I think there is sulfur, stratospheric sulfur-

    5. SPSpeaker2:31:23

       Stratosphere

    6. MGMirik Gogri2:31:24

       ... uh, aerosol injections.

    7. SNSunita Narain2:31:25

       Hmm.

    8. MGMirik Gogri2:31:25

       Then you have marine cloud brightening, which is also an interesting thing. My-

    9. SPSpeaker2:31:30

       Ocean, ocean seeding.

    10. MGMirik Gogri2:31:31

        Ocean fertilization is an interesting thing.

    11. SPSpeaker2:31:32

        Ocean fertilization.

    12. MGMirik Gogri2:31:33

        Uh, with what we are burning with fossil fuels, we are effectively running a large geo, uh, engineering experiment itself, right? So first, that's also an experiment. My thought process is we should do all the research. I am not against doing all the research.

    13. SPSpeaker2:31:47

        I think some people have gone behind- beyond research, and they're implementing.

    14. MGMirik Gogri2:31:51

        That's why, that's why I would, I would right now at least-

    15. SPSpeaker2:31:52

        Yeah

    16. MGMirik Gogri2:31:52

        ... draw the line that the-

    17. SNSunita Narain2:31:53

        That is the arrogance of man.

    18. MGMirik Gogri2:31:55

        No, no, but-

    19. SNSunita Narain2:31:55

        I mean, to think that you could tinker around with nature to that extent, that you could fix-

    20. SPSpeaker2:31:59

        No, but they tinkered, but to begin with-

    21. SNSunita Narain2:32:01

        To fix what you have so badly broken.

    22. MGMirik Gogri2:32:04

        So-

    23. SNSunita Narain2:32:04

        And you've completely disrupted nature today, you've gone way beyond nature's absorptive capacities. It's the arrogance, the, of man, which has brought us to this stage-

    24. SPSpeaker2:32:15

        But we're not saying we should not research it in-

    25. SNSunita Narain2:32:16

        And we think that the arrogance of man is going to get us out of it?

    26. MGMirik Gogri2:32:18

        I, I, I think I, I agree with you. So my sense is, what are the risks? Like, again, the bigger dystopian future that you-

    27. SNSunita Narain2:32:25

        Hmm

    28. MGMirik Gogri2:32:25

        ... asked the question, like, there are certain tipping points of climate you, which you may hit if you are not doing-- if you are doing business as usual-

    29. SNSunita Narain2:32:32

        Hmm

    30. MGMirik Gogri2:32:32

        ... now, whether it's the permafrost thaw or the Western Antarctic ice sheet and all that. So I-
30. 2:34:45 – 2:39:40

    How Should a Carbon Tax Be Levied?

    1. SPSpeaker2:34:45

       What do we think about the idea of carbon tax? Uh, uh, putting a price on carbon from straight economic logic is a good thing, and a carbon tax is a better way to do it than a cap and trade system, right?

    2. MGMirik Gogri2:34:56

       No question.

    3. SPSpeaker2:34:56

       In, in, in my view, and I think it's- But how do you tax it? Do you tax it on carbon consumption, on energy?

    4. MGMirik Gogri2:35:00

       I think you can just tax the fossil fuels itself, so then that's the simplest-

    5. SPSpeaker2:35:03

       You, you, you would, you would tax it at the pla- at the choke-

    6. SNSunita Narain2:35:05

       At source

    7. SPSpeaker2:35:06

       ... at the choke points.

    8. MGMirik Gogri2:35:07

       Choke. Okay.

    9. SPSpeaker2:35:07

       Basically, at the fewest-

    10. SNSunita Narain2:35:08

        What are the choke points?

    11. SPSpeaker2:35:09

        The fewest points, which is at production, basically.

    12. MGMirik Gogri2:35:11

        Production.

    13. SPSpeaker2:35:11

        Production, import, et cetera, et cetera.

    14. MGMirik Gogri2:35:12

        Yeah.

    15. SNSunita Narain2:35:12

        Right, so you would go tax, um- But the import- Oh. No, but the CBAM is that's, that's the-

    16. MGMirik Gogri2:35:16

        CBAM is what that-

    17. SNSunita Narain2:35:17

        So that's Europe's answer.

    18. MGMirik Gogri2:35:18

        Ah, okay.

    19. SNSunita Narain2:35:18

        Europe has basically put a carbon adjusted border mechanism in place. Essentially-

    20. SPSpeaker2:35:25

        Carbon border adjustment mechanism.

    21. SNSunita Narain2:35:26

        Bo-

    22. SPSpeaker2:35:26

        Yeah, CBAM.

    23. SNSunita Narain2:35:26

        It's too late at night-

    24. SPSpeaker2:35:28

        Yeah [chuckles]

    25. SNSunita Narain2:35:28

        ... for me to get CBAM right in terms of its, uh... Uh, essentially, it's a, it's a measure, benign if you look at it, to say, "Oh, we are putting a tax to make sure there's a level playing field, so that the Indians who don't have clean technology cannot come into our markets." But it's actually a t- trade measure-

    26. SPSpeaker2:35:50

        Yeah

    27. SNSunita Narain2:35:50

        ... being put in by the Europeans to, um, to stop the import of a lot of products, which they now want to grow their own industry in. And it does put the whole- I mean, the point is, globalization hasn't worked, as you said, that elephant. But the problem is that we are all wedded to globalization today, because we are export-oriented industries. We don't have any other economic system. So in my view, these kind of taxation systems that are emerging in the world, the US has IRA, which is a subsidy system, works the same, 'cause you're subsidizing your own industry versus other industry. Europe has a taxation system. I think those are going to be bad for climate change. We need cooperation in climate change, not competit- uh, not competition, not polarization. We need the world to come together.

    28. MGMirik Gogri2:36:44

        And to that point, I think one of the sense that I have is the world, every country or region will have its own strength.

    29. SPSpeaker2:36:51

        Mm.

    30. MGMirik Gogri2:36:51

        And if you're not... Because of the problem is so big, if everyone is saying, "I want to do everything myself. I want to do manufacturing myself, I want to do research myself, everything at myself," I think that just creates inefficiencies. At time where we don't have that, we really need to have that cooperation across the board.

Episode duration: 2:57:53