Ep #18 | WTF, Alcohol is a $70B Business in India? | Nikhil Kamath explores Gaps & Opportunities

1. 0:00 – 1:30

   Intro

   1. NKNikhil Kamath0:00

      the intent is to find young people out there and tell them how they can get a job in owning a bar, starting a liquor company, working in a liquor company, doing advertising for liquor companies, because you guys are experts in this. [upbeat music] Okay, you guys ready? [music] Welcome, each and every one of you. Uh, thank you for coming. The very first thing we do when we begin this off is introduce ourselves. Uh, I know Abhishek very well already, but I haven't spent time with the other three of you. So maybe you start by giving us five minutes about yourself, starting with you.

   2. MSMinakshi Singh1:24

      Okay. We start?

   3. NKNikhil Kamath1:26

      Yeah, go, Meenakshi.

   4. MSMinakshi Singh1:27

      Amazing. So, um, okay,

2. 1:30 – 6:00

   Minakshi’s Intro: Part Time Job turned Full time Passion

   1. MSMinakshi Singh1:30

      maybe start from the beginning. Um-

   2. NKNikhil Kamath1:31

      You're a bar owner-

   3. MSMinakshi Singh1:32

      Yeah

   4. NKNikhil Kamath1:32

      ... so you're already a very cool person.

   5. MSMinakshi Singh1:34

      Yeah, I know that.

   6. NKNikhil Kamath1:35

      Like I said, I will pull your leg. Feel free to-

   7. MSMinakshi Singh1:37

      No, I'll do the, I'll do the same [chuckles] -

   8. NKNikhil Kamath1:39

      Yeah. [chuckles]

   9. MSMinakshi Singh1:39

      ... trust me. We need some alcohol, and then we'll start. No, so yeah, so I, I started, um, my journey into this industry, uh, right from hotel management days. So I did my hotel management from IH&M Pusa, New Delhi. Um, and from there on, uh, uh, in the second year of college, just like most of us, we needed pocket money for the pizza and beers. [chuckles] And so we-

   10. NKNikhil Kamath2:06

       Where did you do college?

   11. MSMinakshi Singh2:07

       IH&M Pusa, New Delhi. So, uh, and finished my schooling and college from Delhi.

   12. NKNikhil Kamath2:12

       Mm.

   13. MSMinakshi Singh2:13

       And since then, I've been in Delhi.

   14. NKNikhil Kamath2:14

       Mm. Okay, so you went to college, then?

   15. MSMinakshi Singh2:17

       Uh, yeah, so, uh, I started bartending in the second year of college as a, as a, almost like a, you know, there's something called ODCs, which are out- outdoor catering.

   16. NKNikhil Kamath2:25

       Do you have pictures from back then?

   17. MSMinakshi Singh2:27

       Yeah, yeah.

   18. NKNikhil Kamath2:27

       Yeah.

   19. MSMinakshi Singh2:27

       Of course.

   20. NKNikhil Kamath2:27

       Meghna, we should put that up. Okay, then? [chuckles]

   21. MSMinakshi Singh2:32

       Okay, so that was my first experience behind the bar.

   22. NKNikhil Kamath2:35

       Mm.

   23. MSMinakshi Singh2:35

       Um, I, I also think that was also a very big turning point for me. I was really lucky to have experienced really good, uh, s- you know, space of work. For the first time when you go, um, it was, it was not a pa-- it was just a part-time job, uh, and, you know, you were just doing it for fun, mostly for money. And, uh, when I went behind the bar, I started really enjoying it, and I, I felt like... I don't know if there's a word for this. I really felt like this is my calling, and I got-

   24. NKNikhil Kamath3:02

       What element of bartending?

   25. MSMinakshi Singh3:03

       Actual bartending. So I loved making drinks. I loved serving drinks. I loved the part of hosting and talking to new people, getting to know their stories.

   26. NKNikhil Kamath3:10

       Was it the social element more-

   27. MSMinakshi Singh3:12

       Yeah

   28. NKNikhil Kamath3:12

       ... or was it the mixing of the drink?

   29. MSMinakshi Singh3:13

       Absolutely. Absolutely. So bartending is a mix of many things. Of course, the technical art of it, of making drinks is, is, is primary, but after that, it's layer on layer on your personality and how sociable you are and how open you are to knowing new people, talking to strangers, and how, you know, what your personality is. And I think bartending can bring that personality out in you. It's very-- it's a very good, comfortable space because you are also already in a space of enjoyment. You're mostly there to relax, so you also come with your guards down a little bit. So I think from a consumer point of view, it works really well, and I had a great, uh, time in that second and third year of college.

   30. NKNikhil Kamath3:49

       Bartenders tend to be particularly good-looking?
3. 6:00 – 8:08

   Change of course: Bartender turned Marketer

   1. MSMinakshi Singh6:00

      to bartend in Ind- India. Uh, it's actually illegal-

   2. NKNikhil Kamath6:03

      Even today?

   3. MSMinakshi Singh6:03

      ... today, to certain states in India. Uh, women are not legally allowed to serve-... also, like, even waitressing-wise, or so be actually making drinks. So that was quite a stop for me. Um, I didn't have the option to actually move outside of India. I was barely managing it in Delhi. Um, that's when I kind of looked around on what to do, and that time, Youngduff actually introduced me to somebody who had just started off, uh, this website called Tallyho.com. It used to be working for beverage marketing companies, trainings, a lot of spa- the space was the same, uh, just not bartending. And I actually was their first employee, and I started with data entry and a lot of that, but I actually still really wanted to be there [chuckles] , so I continued doing it with, uh, little money. And, uh, yeah, so those, those years were a struggle, but I also think that I actually look back very, very fondly at that time because those were my... I feel I was very lucky to find the space to still continue in the, in the industry without actually have the option to do.

   4. NKNikhil Kamath7:02

      And then?

   5. MSMinakshi Singh7:03

      Uh, while working in Tallyho, I got to travel a lot. I traveled all over India. They were doing projects with Bacardi, with Smirnoff. Uh, I was working extensively with these brands. These were the brands that were actually entering in- These were global brands, uh, multinational, uh, global brands, and they were actually entering India for the first time, and so they needed bartender training programs, customer activation, deep- a lot of, a lot of, lot of below-the-line activation. So I was part of all these multiple projects. So I would actually take a flight every weekend to a different city. So it was Delhi, Bombay, Bangalore, Hyderabad, Calcutta, Punjab, Jaipur, Raipur, multiple cities. Uh, and that was, like, a intense, crazy two years of my time, and I loved every bit of it. Uh, learned a lot, interacted a lot with a lot of people. I learned about what the corporate means, how businesses work, how all the other things work, right? What- how does- how is the spirit made? I took courses to actually learn how gin is made or how vodka is made, things like that. Um, and continued to actually grow in the, in that space. And, and, and then I got

4. 8:08 – 8:40

   Big break: Joining World’s biggest Liquor companies

   1. MSMinakshi Singh8:08

      my break in a company called Diageo, which was actually, which is still actually, uh, globally number one in the world. And, uh, I started working with a brand called Captain Morgan. Uh-

   2. NKNikhil Kamath8:18

      Rum.

   3. MSMinakshi Singh8:18

      very short stint that time. It was a rum that launched, and, uh, so they launched in Bombay, so their office was here, and then, um, head office was in Bombay, and then, uh, in, uh, Delhi, they launched. So we kind of handled Captain Morgan, and then I moved to Pernod Ricard, which is another liquor giant. There, I stayed for about three and a half years. But d- during this whole time, in 2000...

5. 8:40 – 11:53

   Building her own bar - Cocktails & Dreams

   1. MSMinakshi Singh8:40

      I can- I have to tell you, in 2006, I made my first Excel sheet of m- having my own bar, you know? [chuckles] And I still have that Excel sheet of all the costs in the world.

   2. NKNikhil Kamath8:50

      Right.

   3. MSMinakshi Singh8:50

      And at that time, I called Amit Burman, uh, you know, the founder of-

   4. NKNikhil Kamath8:54

      Like Dabur

   5. MSMinakshi Singh8:55

      ... Dabur, and at that time, he used to run a bar in, uh, in Delhi called Forum. And I took one hour of his time asking him, "How much does the glass cost? How much does the kitchen cost? How much does- how much do you pay your manager?" I had no idea how to build the sheet, right? So I built it, and very nicely, actually gave all the details, heard me out, and, uh, and then, yeah, the dream was alive. And, uh, Youngduff and I kept talking, where we were- He was a trainer, very well-established, uh, you know, bartender, mixologist, uh, he's an author. He's many, many things. And, uh, so we kept talking about doing something together, s- starting our own bar. And at that time, I think the dream was to have a bar for people like us. That was always the conversation. We were like, "Where are the bars where you go quietly, sit, chat, have a good drink? Why are all, all the bars so loud? Why do they expect us to dance [chuckles] right now or, you know, dress up all the time?" You know, where are the bars which when you go to London, you go to New York, you go to... I mean, West was our, mostly that's our direction, you know, uh, that- that's how you get inspiration globally in this space of spirits-

   6. NKNikhil Kamath9:58

      Right

   7. MSMinakshi Singh9:58

      ... and bars. Um, and we used to always talk about it, uh, between us, that, "Where are the cool bars, man?" Like, where are the... There are pubs, there are beer places. There were, like... Of course, we've always had institutions which are, which are amazing, even at that time, but good cocktail bars with cool bartenders talking to you and serving you and owners being, being there for you does not happen. Here, there are all, you know, owners who are, who will, will walk into, you know, "This saab ka table aa gaya, and saab ke friends aaye hai," and the managers are like... It's, it's a very different culture, right, in India when it comes to bars, and... So, uh, yeah, so we kind of went through it, and we went through looking for investors. We had our conversations, and finally, we realized that nobody's gonna give us money [chuckles] to start our bar. And we really wanted to be in South Delhi. That was our dream. But you know that what they say, that God gives you the opposite of [chuckles] what you want. And then we finally found a place in Gurgaon, in a basement in Gurgaon. It's still, like, kind of in the middle of nowhere, is how a lot of people refer to it, people who know this place. It's called Cocktails & Dreams Speakeasy. That's our first bar. Uh, we started it in the basement. Uh, Youngduff was the bartender, I was the waiter. [chuckles] That's how we like to put it. And we had two more people to help us, and we had about four people in the kitchen.

   8. NKNikhil Kamath11:13

      Do you have live music in this bar?

   9. MSMinakshi Singh11:15

      Yes.

   10. NKNikhil Kamath11:15

       Yeah, I think I've been here.

   11. MSMinakshi Singh11:17

       Amazing.

   12. SSShuchir Suri11:17

       And, uh, you are a regular customer who was there at least four times a week.

   13. MSMinakshi Singh11:20

       Yeah, Shuchir... Like I told you, Shuchir was one of our first, first, uh, guest.

   14. NKNikhil Kamath11:25

       How often does he come?

   15. MSMinakshi Singh11:27

       Uh, now, you know, he's married, and he has a kid, so things have changed. [chuckles]

   16. SSShuchir Suri11:29

       I used to be there four times a week with four different people.

   17. NKNikhil Kamath11:31

       Is there a correlation being, between being single and going out to a bar?

   18. SSShuchir Suri11:35

       I think that time, uh, I think it just happened, uh, naturally-

   19. MSMinakshi Singh11:37

       Yeah

   20. SSShuchir Suri11:37

       ... because that was one of the cooler bars. Uh, I mean, that was the only bar which was close to home.

   21. NKNikhil Kamath11:42

       Why did you go there, Shuchir?

   22. SSShuchir Suri11:43

       Uh, because, um, I wanted to drink cocktails, and every... There were not too many places in the city at that point in time which would serve co- cocktails.

   23. MSMinakshi Singh11:52

       Yeah.

   24. NKNikhil Kamath11:52

       How

6. 11:53 – 14:32

   Elements of a bar experience | SideCar #1 Bar in India

   1. NKNikhil Kamath11:53

      many people walk into a bar for the taste of a cocktail, and how many walk into a bar for the people in the bar?

   2. MSMinakshi Singh12:01

      So majority of the people will come for the entire experience. It's never one thing. Um, yes, cocktails are, of course, cocktails and food, both are very much, you know, your center. That's your point of sale. You have to sell cocktails and food, otherwise you're not selling the lights and the table and the chair, right? So I have to make money from that, so I have to get that right. But other than that, music, lighting, people, servers-... all of it, even the comfort of your chair. Like, the number of times we have, we have made our own furniture ourselves. Even now, today, we are making our own bar, and we're still making [chuckles] the furniture ourselves. So it's like, it's part of who you are, right? It's the craft of it. So I know I-

   3. SSShuchir Suri12:40

      And also, you will go to your bar and be like, "Okay,"-

   4. MSMinakshi Singh12:42

      I need a Suchit, yeah.

   5. SSShuchir Suri12:42

      "Talk to the, talk to the bartender and be like, 'Okay, I do not like this. Make me something else.'" Which was, which was amazing, and not too many bars would be doing that back-

   6. MSMinakshi Singh12:50

      Yeah

   7. SSShuchir Suri12:50

      ... back in the day.

   8. MSMinakshi Singh12:51

      Yeah, Yangdupu was all about that. He used to make drinks as per people, so he-- I still know the drink that Suchit used to have, and-

   9. NKNikhil Kamath12:57

      What do you mean?

   10. MSMinakshi Singh12:57

       ... to date, he used to have this popcorn [chuckles] shot-

   11. SSShuchir Suri12:59

       Popcorn shot

   12. MSMinakshi Singh12:59

       ... like a crazy person. [chuckles] So-

   13. SSShuchir Suri13:01

       And after a few, everyone in the bar-

   14. MSMinakshi Singh13:03

       The caramel

   15. SSShuchir Suri13:03

       ... would be having that shot.

   16. MSMinakshi Singh13:03

       It's amazing, it's amazingly, it's a no-brainer, okay? So yeah, so bar, so bars are a lot about comfort and, you know, knowing people, many, many things. So if I, I can't just put, like, my finger to it-

   17. SSShuchir Suri13:14

       Mm.

   18. MSMinakshi Singh13:14

       ... but yes, of course, food, drinks, music, ambiance. If you just make pillars, there are four, five big pillars. Service, these are like, you have to have them sorted, and then everything else hopefully aligns.

   19. NKNikhil Kamath13:26

       So you started, uh, Cocktail & Dreams in 2012?

   20. MSMinakshi Singh13:30

       Yeah.

   21. NKNikhil Kamath13:30

       And then how did SideCar happen? SideCar is Asia's-

   22. MSMinakshi Singh13:34

       World's, yeah.

   23. NKNikhil Kamath13:35

       World's-

   24. MSMinakshi Singh13:35

       So we were part of World's list, we are part of Asia's list, we are part of-- We are number one in India for the last consecutive three years.

   25. NKNikhil Kamath13:42

       Number one bar in India.

   26. MSMinakshi Singh13:43

       India, which is so much more stressful than the international awards, I'm telling you.

   27. NKNikhil Kamath13:47

       Really?

   28. MSMinakshi Singh13:47

       'Cause it's fear, man. You know what I mean, right?

   29. NKNikhil Kamath13:49

       Mm.

   30. MSMinakshi Singh13:49

       Indians-
7. 14:32 – 16:38

   Suraj’s Intro: Growing up in Goa

   1. NKNikhil Kamath14:32

      on, so you know, when I heard about you first, Riaz called me one day, and he's like: "You have to invest in Goa Brewing Company. I'm connecting you to him."

   2. SSSuraj Shenai14:41

      That's so sweet of Riaz.

   3. NKNikhil Kamath14:43

      [chuckles] What is the story of Goa Brewing Company, and why are so many people vouching for you in a world riddled with many different Indian independent beer brands?

   4. SSSuraj Shenai14:58

      I think vouching is all their kindness. I'm [chuckles] really grateful to everyone, but I think from a story, um, we-- I grew up in Panjim, small town of Goa. Parents were, uh, worked as government employees. Mother, pa- father both went to work, so we were literally, you know, had the whole town to ourselves. It was very navigable as kids. Great life. Um, you know, w- went to hotel school because couldn't get into any engineering college. I, I could go to some rural college of engineering, but that didn't seem exciting. I took a year off-

   5. NKNikhil Kamath15:33

      You went to school in Goa?

   6. SSSuraj Shenai15:35

      Yes, I went to school, everything in Goa until, uh, I graduated.

   7. NKNikhil Kamath15:39

      Your dad was posted there?

   8. SSSuraj Shenai15:40

      No, no, my dad was working in the... He, he joined as a land surveyor. Parents were m- first generation, moving from village to the city, educated, so their entire focus was to educate us as kids. A younger brother, who also, again, lives in California. And, um, while we were growing up, I think, um, uh, there was varied experiences also. You know, Goa is qui- quite charming that way, in terms of, um, it had its own micro culture.

   9. NKNikhil Kamath16:12

      Mm.

   10. SSSuraj Shenai16:12

       So you saw a lot of people, travelers, tourists, you know, in the-- people visiting, and you were also exposed to a completely different life-

   11. SSShuchir Suri16:20

       Right

   12. SSSuraj Shenai16:20

       ... which was very different from what you were living in your small town. And, uh, then I, uh, joined hotel school. I went to IHM Goa, graduated, but it really didn't feel like working in the hotels, so I was just looking for a job, and, uh, Kingfisher,

8. 16:38 – 20:00

   Learning the ropes | Understanding India’s drinking culture

   1. SSSuraj Shenai16:38

      the beer company, was hiring, and I just went for an interview. I had no experience. They just, I don't know, offered me the job because I was extremely like, you know, enthused.

   2. NKNikhil Kamath16:47

      What year was this?

   3. SSSuraj Shenai16:48

      This was in the year two thousand and six, so that was the first understanding of how, you know, the liquor industry works, you know, because beer operates almost like FMCG, and when you are, uh, working for a, for a large beer company, you are... The operational length and breadth of it is unlike any other alcohol category. I think beer has to reach the last. You wouldn't travel, like, for a wine, you may go a little further, but for beer, you will want it very close to your home. It's, it's very different, so it operates very fast. You order, so if in a liquor company, order cycles maybe once in a month, in beer, you get, like, every three, four days. So operationally, very, very exciting. G- got, got a sense of that. Then I got a job to work with Pernod Ricard, which is this French company. Great time to join them because it was, it was entirely actually built by Indian executives, Param Oberoi and these guys.

   4. NKNikhil Kamath17:46

      He's also in Goa now.

   5. MSMinakshi Singh17:47

      Yeah.

   6. NKNikhil Kamath17:48

      Right, yeah.

   7. MSMinakshi Singh17:48

      That was Seagrams then.

   8. SSSuraj Shenai17:49

      It was Seagrams then.

   9. MSMinakshi Singh17:50

      Were you in Seagrams or in Pernod?

   10. SSSuraj Shenai17:50

       No, I was in Pernod by then, but Pernod had acquired... It's very interesting that when, uh, the Seagrams family, which owned, uh, which was the world's biggest liquor company, the f- the founder wanted to just sell out, and there was nobody who would buy it. So it was split between many people, and nobody wanted to take the India business, and Pernod got it, and Pernod turned it around, and today, I think-

   11. MSMinakshi Singh18:13

       Made it massively profitable.

   12. SSSuraj Shenai18:14

       Yeah, like twenty-five thousand crore-

   13. MSMinakshi Singh18:16

       The biggest, yeah

   14. SSSuraj Shenai18:16

       ... in revenue. It's, I think, the most profitable liquor company, but entire-- so the DNA was very interesting while I was working at Pernod. You had great executives who were very supportive of talent.... so got to work within Pernod. So from Goa to Chandigarh, which is again, like a complete three sixty degrees shock for me, and I looked after marketing for Northwest India. So got a very different sense of how India is. Then moved to the brand team, uh, where I was given one of the biggest brands to manage for a short time. I was looking after Royal Stag, which is, I think, I don't know if it's still the biggest, but it was quite big.

   15. SSSuraj Shenai18:53

       So when did that campaign come, "No artificial flavors?" Was it by you?

   16. SSSuraj Shenai18:56

       No, no, this was before me. Yeah, no artificial flavors.

   17. SSSuraj Shenai18:59

       I think, yeah, that, that really-

   18. SSSuraj Shenai19:00

       The product campaign-

   19. SSSuraj Shenai19:00

       That really clicked it.

   20. SSSuraj Shenai19:00

       This whole grain whiskey story.

   21. SSSuraj Shenai19:02

       Yeah.

   22. SSSuraj Shenai19:02

       But-

   23. SSSuraj Shenai19:02

       When I was there, Royal Stag became the number one in the world.

   24. SSSuraj Shenai19:04

       Yeah, it was number one.

   25. SSSuraj Shenai19:05

       Highest, yeah, biggest volume-

   26. SSSuraj Shenai19:07

       In the IMFL category.

   27. SSSuraj Shenai19:08

       So-

   28. SSSuraj Shenai19:08

       Biggest volume in the world.

   29. SSSuraj Shenai19:08

       It's still number one, right?

   30. SSSuraj Shenai19:09

       Yeah.
9. 20:00 – 21:40

   Story of the beginning of Goa Brewing Co

   1. SSSuraj Shenai20:00

      They wanted to focus more on the premium. No, no, no. Those were the economy segments-

   2. SSSuraj Shenai20:02

      Yeah

   3. SSSuraj Shenai20:02

      ... which makes no profit.

   4. SSSuraj Shenai20:03

      Yeah.

   5. SSSuraj Shenai20:04

      So what was the opportunity you saw in Goa Brewing? What sets you apart from the rest?

   6. SSSuraj Shenai20:10

      So while I was working, I-- the only thing I used whatever income that I got was to travel. So I initially, with the small salaries, I could travel in Southeast Asia, just backpacked. And when I finally got to go to the US, I think this was somewhere around two thousand and thirteen, fourteen, I was on a flight, uh, from London to New York, and, like, a United Airways, like the cheapest ticket, right at the back, [chuckles] you know? So you know, that's like-

   7. SSSuraj Shenai20:38

      They just landed.

   8. SSSuraj Shenai20:38

      That's... And you are happy about it.

   9. SSSuraj Shenai20:40

      They landed. [chuckles]

   10. SSSuraj Shenai20:40

       That's luxury. And I'm sitting there, and I'm waiting for the trolley with like, you know, the, the, with the drinks coming, and I'm just very observant of people. So I always, I was just looking, and there were all these kids who looked very hipster. Hipsterism was in and all the, you know, uh, what do you call, the turtle shell, uh, frames.

   11. SSSuraj Shenai21:00

       Yeah.

   12. SSSuraj Shenai21:00

       And everybody was picking up this green can, and I was just super curious, and this is taking so long. It's a transatlantic flight, so twenty, thirty minutes down, and I'm just waiting, and then it reached me, and I said: Do you know what that green can is? And she, this woman, just looked, the, and she said, "Oh, that's the last one. It's your lucky day." And that was an IPA. And I'd never had an IPA. I'd worked in liquor for ten years, maybe, not ten years, I must have worked in liquor for seven years.

   13. SSSuraj Shenai21:26

       IPA is Indian Pale Ale.

   14. SSSuraj Shenai21:27

       Indian Pale Ale. And I cracked open the bottle, can, and I poured it, had the first sip, the burst of hop aromas, and like what authentic craft beer is, and I was just like, like, shit, you know, I mean,

10. 21:40 – 25:20

    What is Indian Pale Ale? | Hops

    1. SSSuraj Shenai21:40

       what am I... What are we making?

    2. SSSuraj Shenai21:41

       Can you, can you elaborate a bit, what is Indian Pale Ale?

    3. SSSuraj Shenai21:44

       So it's a very interesting, uh, story. So Indian Pale Ale, um, was made when the British couldn't ship fresh, old beers to India because they would get spoilt on the journey. It was on the sea.

    4. SSSuraj Shenai21:58

       By the ship.

    5. SSSuraj Shenai21:59

       So some brewers in, in, uh, London decided to increase the alcohol percentage and also add a lot of hops. So hops are, uh, you know, they're antibacterial, but the yeast loves it. So from a microbiological standpoint, it-

    6. SSSuraj Shenai22:12

       What are hops?

    7. SSSuraj Shenai22:13

       Hops are, um, uh, like it's a bud of a creeper. It's very, um, sim-

    8. SSSuraj Shenai22:18

       Botanical, uh-

    9. SSSuraj Shenai22:19

       Yeah, yeah, it's a botanical plant.

    10. SSSuraj Shenai22:21

        With green in color-

    11. SSSuraj Shenai22:21

        So it's the bitterness-

    12. SSSuraj Shenai22:21

        Small buds

    13. SSSuraj Shenai22:22

        ... and the aroma of beer essentially came from hops.

    14. SSSuraj Shenai22:25

        It, that is what makes a bitter beer.

    15. SSSuraj Shenai22:25

        So the-

    16. SSSuraj Shenai22:25

        Pure bitter

    17. SSSuraj Shenai22:26

        ... so the main problem was when you didn't have temperature control back in the medieval ages, and you still brewed beer, you often ha-- found the beer turn sour, and then the brewers would just experiment with, like, the French brewers would put something and, and then somehow someone realized that, okay, if you put a lot of hops, it controls the bacterial, uh, growth, because you didn't have the sanitation of today, and you didn't understand microbiology that well. So in fact, beer was given to, you know, farm workers as a ration because it was healthier than water. Because water, beer, beer goes through the whole process of getting heated and cooked and... So, um, so i- the, the, when this beer started coming to India, it was made for India, and when Indian breweries got set up, I think the first ones in Solan and everywhere, this shipping was not needed anymore. So the, the, the style died. For almost hundred and forty, hundred and fifty years, nobody really even heard of India Pale Ale. Until brewers-

    18. SSSuraj Shenai23:24

        And also, I think the Indian palate, uh, did not, mm-

    19. SSSuraj Shenai23:27

        It's not in India at all.

    20. SSSuraj Shenai23:28

        Yeah.

    21. SSSuraj Shenai23:28

        Even in the West, it died. Until-

    22. SSSuraj Shenai23:30

        Because al- also, it's, it's way more bitter than, uh, the, the regular beer.

    23. SSSuraj Shenai23:33

        So was the green can you had on the airline-

    24. SSSuraj Shenai23:36

        It's a-

    25. SSSuraj Shenai23:36

        ... an Indian company, or was it-

    26. SSSuraj Shenai23:37

        No, no, India pale ales were never made in India until maybe two thousand and fifteen, sixteen.

    27. SSSuraj Shenai23:41

        India pale ale is more of a category, like lager.

    28. SSSuraj Shenai23:42

        It's a category. Like how you have a stout-

    29. SSSuraj Shenai23:45

        A stout, lager-

    30. SSSuraj Shenai23:45

        You have, you have IPA
11. 25:20 – 32:38

    Obsession to start something new | Premiumising Quality

    1. NKNikhil Kamath25:20

       Okay. So how did that relate with you starting Goa Brewing Company?

    2. SSSuraj Shenai25:24

       So I had a plan to go and visit, like, you know, friends and travel in the US and see what not, you know?

    3. NKNikhil Kamath25:32

       What were you doing back then, professionally?

    4. SSSuraj Shenai25:33

       I was working. I was working for at, uh, in that, that-- Those days, I was working in Chandigarh, I think. Yeah.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath25:39

       For?

    6. SSSuraj Shenai25:39

       For Pernod.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath25:39

       Okay.

    8. SSSuraj Shenai25:39

       Yeah.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath25:40

       So-

    10. SSSuraj Shenai25:40

        So whatever money I saved, I just would use it to-

    11. NKNikhil Kamath25:43

        So you saw this green can, you were like, "IPA is great!"

    12. SSSuraj Shenai25:45

        Yeah.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath25:45

        Kickass. Then?

    14. SSSuraj Shenai25:47

        So I read the can, I was like: This is insane. Like, how can we not make product like this? And I was always, like, thinking within the companies, what can you do to create new product? I was very, like, trying to shake the, those, uh, within that organization. I just was, I think, waited. I remember, like, pacing in the flight, wanting for the doors to open. When I landed, I just went to the brewery that made it. Then I just kept traveling with, going from one brewery to other.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath26:18

        Mm.

    16. SSSuraj Shenai26:18

        Then I, I m- must have, on that trip of three weeks, I must have gone to maybe two or three breweries a day.

    17. NKNikhil Kamath26:24

        Mm.

    18. SSSuraj Shenai26:24

        I didn't even meet my cousins. I said ... Like, I was totally obsessed by the idea, and it was like everyone was very open, friendly. The whole culture part of it was very different from how, like, how Indian liquor companies were, very secretive.

    19. SPSpeaker26:37

        Yeah.

    20. SSSuraj Shenai26:37

        It was very-

    21. SPSpeaker26:38

        Secret formulas.

    22. SSSuraj Shenai26:38

        The movement was called Poppy Left. Like, you have poppy right-

    23. NKNikhil Kamath26:41

        Is that such a big thing in alcohol, the recipe?

    24. SSSuraj Shenai26:44

        Not so much. So, uh, Western brewers just publish their recipes. We also are very ha-happy to, you know, like, tell people what, what style it is. We describe it very in detail.

    25. SPSpeaker26:52

        I think the legacy brands hold it tight.

    26. SSSuraj Shenai26:54

        Yeah.

    27. SPSpeaker26:55

        It's the-

    28. AKAbhishek Khaitan26:55

        No, like the-

    29. SPSpeaker26:56

        Johnnie Walker, Chivas

    30. AKAbhishek Khaitan26:56

        ... like, in, uh, hard alcohol, the-
12. 32:38 – 34:00

    Shuchir’s Intro: Love for Hosting Events

    1. NKNikhil Kamath32:38

       I say Shuchir or Shuchir?

    2. SSShuchir Suri32:40

       Shuchir.

    3. NKNikhil Kamath32:40

       Shuchir.

    4. SSShuchir Suri32:40

       Yeah.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath32:41

       Okay. So we already know about Shuchir, that his youth-

    6. SPSpeaker32:46

       [chuckles]

    7. NKNikhil Kamath32:46

       ... was focused around going to cocktails, uh, Minakshi's-

    8. SSShuchir Suri32:52

       You told it before, though, but, uh-

    9. NKNikhil Kamath32:53

       Yeah.

    10. SPSpeaker32:53

        I know.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath32:53

        Minakshi's bar four times a week with four different people.

    12. SPSpeaker32:56

        Yes.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath32:57

        When did the journey-

    14. SPSpeaker32:58

        I'm an eyewitness. [laughing]

    15. SSShuchir Suri32:59

        [chuckles] To, uh, a, a small part of it.

    16. SPSpeaker33:02

        [chuckles] Okay.

    17. NKNikhil Kamath33:04

        So when did you, like, get your act together and become a family man? The most-

    18. SSShuchir Suri33:08

        A family man is a different story.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath33:09

        The question in the most traditional sense.

    20. SSShuchir Suri33:11

        Family man happened, uh, what, about five years back. I actually met my wife at a, at one of my own events.

    21. NKNikhil Kamath33:16

        Mm.

    22. SSShuchir Suri33:17

        But I've always done events. So since I was in school, I was, I was not the best student, but I was always involved in organizing stuff for school with friends.

    23. NKNikhil Kamath33:28

        Mm, mm.

    24. SSShuchir Suri33:28

        So I was-- I've always been an organizer. Uh, so it was a very natural transition for me to be in the industry of entertainment. Um, along the way, I started, post-college, I started getting artists down to the country. Um, I floated my first company when I was about seventeen, eighteen years old, where I would get a company called spottedclub.com, where I would send photographers across bars in Delhi, Bombay, Bangalore. They would take pictures and upload it within twenty-four hours onto this website. And, um, but I would

13. 34:00 – 37:00

    Starting a company at 18: Early success to Downfall

    1. SSShuchir Suri34:00

       always create experiences, and I realized that the only way I could monetize this was via alcohol brands. So when I was eighteen years old, I got this artist into the country called Edward Maya for the first time, and I was an eighteen-year-old, had no idea about sponsorships. I walked into the Bacardi's office. Randomly, I stayed in Gurgaon, I walked into Bada- Bacardi's office. I got a meeting through the-

    2. NKNikhil Kamath34:21

       Was he really popular in Delhi?

    3. SPSpeaker34:23

       Uh, [chuckles] subjective right now. Let's not-

    4. SSShuchir Suri34:26

       What do you call popular? [laughing]

    5. SPSpeaker34:27

       You don't want to put him above this, right? Let's discuss that.

    6. SSShuchir Suri34:31

       Uh-

    7. SPSpeaker34:31

       No, he was. Massively connected, extremely social-

    8. SSShuchir Suri34:34

       But like I said-

    9. SPSpeaker34:35

       Fun guy

    10. SSShuchir Suri34:35

        ... that, that, that's my moat. I just knew how to get people together-

    11. SPSpeaker34:38

        Yeah

    12. SSShuchir Suri34:39

        ... and I knew how to have the best parties, and, um, but I did not have experience, right? So I was throwing these amazing parties. I was making money off it, but at a point of time, I had a downfall.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath34:50

        Yeah.

    14. SSShuchir Suri34:50

        So I remember these events-

    15. NKNikhil Kamath34:52

        How old are you now, Shuchir?

    16. SSShuchir Suri34:53

        Uh, I'm thirty-five.

    17. NKNikhil Kamath34:54

        Yeah.

    18. SSShuchir Suri34:54

        I'm thirty-five.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath34:55

        There's something about this. I have a couple of friends in Bombay and Bangalore who are really cool, organizing great events at a certain point in their life. They all have a change of heart, where what was once really appealing and validating for them stops being validating at around the age of thirty-five, thirty-five, forty. Why is that?

    20. SSShuchir Suri35:19

        Uh, actually, for me, um, I ha-

    21. NKNikhil Kamath35:22

        I, I, I take great offense to this because when I watch some of these guys who are making money, having a good time, being very social, in many ways doing what they love, why do they stop it and then try to do something completely different at a later half of their life?

    22. SSShuchir Suri35:40

        I don't think I've stopped it at all. At least from personal experience, uh, I realized very early, whatever I do in life, I'll have to build my business around it, and I could not do a nine-to-five job. I was very clear about that. I had to be we- doing s- something in which I have fun. So I had this one party, which did not go very well, uh, which was a very big talk of town, and it called-- it was called, oh, it was a New Year party, where we ran out of alcohol, organization was not the best. In one month's time, I decided, uh, I'm going to-- I was a small partner in a nightclub. I sold that off.

    23. NKNikhil Kamath36:13

        What went wrong?

    24. SSShuchir Suri36:15

        Um, the partnership that I was in, at that point in time, who I partnered with to have this party, that did not work out for me, and my responsibility was, was perfect. What, what I executed as part of my responsibility was, was on point, but-

    25. NKNikhil Kamath36:29

        I'm thinking Delhi, someone shot somebody.

    26. SSShuchir Suri36:31

        That's the same party I'm talking about.

    27. NKNikhil Kamath36:32

        Oh, my God! [laughing]

    28. SPSpeaker36:34

        Oh, my God! [laughing] Shuchir, do you-

    29. SSShuchir Suri36:37

        ... [laughing] No, but that's fine. That, that did happen at that party.

    30. NKNikhil Kamath36:39

        We say, "No, we were all fine."
14. 37:00 – 38:35

    Joining a company | Understanding how companies work

    1. SSShuchir Suri37:01

       uh, at a very low sa... I was making lots of money, but I realized that if I want to do what I want to do for the rest of my life, around what I want to do, uh, which is entertaining people, I have to understand how companies work. So I joined, uh, Roshan Abbas. He was running a company called Encompass at that point in time. I joined as an assistant manager at a very low salary, but the three years I spent there, all I did was understand invoicing, taxation, purchase orders, um, how to... vendor management.

    2. NKNikhil Kamath37:30

       Give me the secret recipe to throw a killer party that everybody wants to show up to. One line.

    3. SSShuchir Suri37:35

       So, so what I do now is experience. So what I learned from that and what I do now is the same thing I'm doing for 100,000 people across three cities with one IP that I run called Gin Explorers Club. It's just corporatized, right? That time, financing was, I had to sell tickets to finance, I had to go behind sponsors to finance. Now, financing, thanks to these ticketing partners, has become much easier. Alcohol brands are spending more money on creating experiences. People are getting-- people became more music sensitive. They would come for certain acts. So basically, what I do now, it's exactly what I was doing back then, but I'm more organized and I've built a successful business only focusing on the alcohol industry. So watch brands come to me, luxury brands come to me. I say no to everyone. What I know very well is alcohol. I know how to se- I'm their, I'm their friends, right? So I work with multiple of his brands. I built out one of his gin brands, which is one of-

    4. MSMinakshi Singh38:29

       He's an important guy. If he comes to the bar and says, "This is a cool bar," then-

    5. NKNikhil Kamath38:32

       Yeah

    6. MSMinakshi Singh38:33

       ... you kind of-

    7. AKAbhishek Khaitan38:33

       No, his, uh-

    8. MSMinakshi Singh38:34

       You make it in the list

    9. AKAbhishek Khaitan38:34

       ... what he created,

15. 38:35 – 42:10

    Starting the Gin Explorers Club, Food Talk India, Anthem, Jade Forest

    1. AKAbhishek Khaitan38:35

       this, uh, Gin Explorer Club-

    2. NKNikhil Kamath38:37

       Uh.

    3. AKAbhishek Khaitan38:37

       -is one of the most fantastic properties.

    4. MSMinakshi Singh38:40

       Yeah.

    5. AKAbhishek Khaitan38:40

       And, uh, it, it's like a carnival: music, food, the alcohol, and it's like to a different level. Like, for our gin, also, Jaisalmer, which is now the largest luxury gin, we had a launch in his, uh, GEC, and immediately it became popular. So what he has created is amazing.

    6. SSShuchir Suri38:59

       So at that time, also, uh, people, uh, were not okay, brands were not okay with partnering an event where other brands were involved, so we were fortunate enough to get all the gin brands together back then.

    7. MSMinakshi Singh39:10

       The first GEC at Olive.

    8. SSShuchir Suri39:11

       At Olive.

    9. MSMinakshi Singh39:12

       That was so beautiful. One of my favorite events.

    10. SSShuchir Suri39:13

        Actually, uh, GEC started when Anand, at Anand's bar. So that's where the idea of GEC started, when there was a, there was a gin boom which was going on because cocktail-- we were actually also in the same-

    11. MSMinakshi Singh39:24

        Anand is the founder of Greater Than-

    12. SSShuchir Suri39:25

        Of Greater Than

    13. MSMinakshi Singh39:26

        ... Sasha.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath39:26

        Ah, I know.

    15. SSShuchir Suri39:27

        But that being said, now Gin Explorers Club will not only be Gin Explorers Club, we'll, we'll be dropping gin, and we'll be entering more categories under the same festival. Tequila is something which I'm very passionate about.

    16. NKNikhil Kamath39:37

        Tequila, is it really blowing up like we think, or is it only in the affluent circles?

    17. SSShuchir Suri39:42

        Globally, it's blowing up. India will always be, uh, in the affluent-

    18. MSMinakshi Singh39:46

        Yeah

    19. SSShuchir Suri39:46

        ... circle because of price point.

    20. NKNikhil Kamath39:47

        Much smaller than gin?

    21. MSMinakshi Singh39:48

        Yeah, but as per-

    22. SSShuchir Suri39:48

        Way smaller

    23. MSMinakshi Singh39:48

        ... the ISWR report now, it's, it's actually growing three times, which is a very s- but on a very small base. So it's like saying one glasses have now multiplied to three. [chuckles]

    24. NKNikhil Kamath39:58

        But it's growing faster than everything else, right?

    25. AKAbhishek Khaitan40:00

        In the US-

    26. SSShuchir Suri40:00

        But the volume base is very small, and it's-

    27. MSMinakshi Singh40:02

        Yeah, volume is super small

    28. SSShuchir Suri40:03

        ... only the top-level tequilas which are growing.

    29. MSMinakshi Singh40:05

        Super tiny.

    30. SSShuchir Suri40:05

        Because if you see the lower-level tequilas, they're not selling at all.
16. 42:10 – 45:10

    Abhishek’s Intro | Innate Passion for Liquor

    1. NKNikhil Kamath42:10

       but not the least, Abhishek. I have to preface Abhishek's introduction. Uh, so we are a very small miniature partner to Abhishek in his business as a equity partner. It's a investment that has done very well for us. Uh, we've never spoken about it publicly, but we've spoken, like, privately many times about it. I think it's one point six, one point seven percent.

    2. AKAbhishek Khaitan42:35

       Yeah.

    3. NKNikhil Kamath42:35

       But-

    4. AKAbhishek Khaitan42:35

       Pre-IPO?

    5. NKNikhil Kamath42:37

       I think it's... No, no.

    6. MSMinakshi Singh42:37

       No, no, no.

    7. AKAbhishek Khaitan42:38

       Yeah, from the open market, it's I think-

    8. NKNikhil Kamath42:39

       Okay

    9. AKAbhishek Khaitan42:39

       ... close to five hundred crores you're holding.

    10. NKNikhil Kamath42:41

        I think four hundred crores. Four hundred-

    11. NKNikhil Kamath42:43

        ... near four hundred crores of Abhishek's stock, Radico, which is a great investment for me. So, uh-

    12. NKNikhil Kamath42:49

        Nice

    13. NKNikhil Kamath42:49

        -don't blame me for being a bit nicer to [laughing] Abhishek.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath42:53

        Let's tell you, let's tell you-

    15. SPSpeaker42:54

        How good investment relation-

    16. NKNikhil Kamath42:56

        I mean, he got caviar.

    17. SPSpeaker42:56

        Investor relation guys. [laughing]

    18. NKNikhil Kamath42:58

        That's how this is. It's like you are vegetarian, you have caviar. [laughing]

    19. AKAbhishek Khaitan43:03

        I can't see the caviar. [laughing]

    20. NKNikhil Kamath43:06

        [laughing] But tell us, Abhishek, you have legacy in this industry. I read-- I didn't know, but seventy years, really?

    21. AKAbhishek Khaitan43:12

        No, actually, um, see, our company was formed by the Goen brothers in 1943, and then, um, uh, 1973, my dad, uh, bought it over from Mr. Sanjay Dalmia. And, uh, so from 1973, our family is into the alcohol business.

    22. NKNikhil Kamath43:31

        Mm-hmm.

    23. AKAbhishek Khaitan43:32

        And, um, I studied in Modern School.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath43:35

        Mm-hmm.

    25. AKAbhishek Khaitan43:36

        And I always say I'm in the business of making people happy.

    26. NKNikhil Kamath43:39

        Mm-hmm.

    27. AKAbhishek Khaitan43:40

        And-

    28. NKNikhil Kamath43:40

        In Bangalore, you were in boarding school, right?

    29. AKAbhishek Khaitan43:42

        No, Modern School was in Delhi.

    30. NKNikhil Kamath43:44

        And then college in Bangalore.
17. 45:10 – 54:00

    Joining Family Business | Overcoming Failures, Observing Trends

    1. AKAbhishek Khaitan45:10

       uh, then in 1996, I finished my engineering, and everything which could go wrong happened to me. I was, that time, I think, twenty-two. So we had a separation in our family. My father were four brothers, and, uh, we got Rampur Distillery. That time, I think the turnover of the company would be about seventy crores, and I had a liability of fifty crores, and the profit would be kind of zero. And-

    2. NKNikhil Kamath45:37

       What year was this?

    3. AKAbhishek Khaitan45:38

       This was in '96.

    4. NKNikhil Kamath45:40

       Mm-hmm.

    5. AKAbhishek Khaitan45:40

       That's the time I joined business. Also, we had a bottling contract with one of the, uh, leading players in India, which got over. So my entire revenue system was over. Company was kind of in losses with fifty crores liabilities. So that time, I went to one of the largest bottlers with Dad, and, uh, he made us wait for five, six hours and wanted a stake in the company. So that's the time I went to Dad. I said, "Dad, "" Now, our back is against the wall, and I really want to create a brand, and let me try and do it." So that's the time, as a company, we decided to get into brands. And, um, the-- one of the biggest tasks for me was to change the name of the company. So the company was called Rampur Distillery and Chemical Company. And, uh, this, I was twenty-two. We had eleven, uh, foreign companies in India. That is the time that there was a myth, the amount of scotch consumed in India is more than what is bottled in Scotland. And here, a twenty-two-year-old guy coming, no monies, nothing. Totally, like it was a, it was a, uh, different scene. So first of all, it took me three, four presentations to my, the senior team, and the age was all high. I was twenty-two, they were all forty, f- fifty years old. So I changed the name of the company from Rampur Distillery and Chemical Company to Radico. RA of Rampur, DI of Distillery, and C of Company. So that's how Radico came into, uh, existence, and, uh-

    6. NKNikhil Kamath47:20

       But by the way, I love this part of the story wherein I find this in many industries I'm going in to invest. Uh, we have this Western baggage in India, where innately Indians believe that if the product is foreign, it's better. Like I was telling you earlier-

    7. AKAbhishek Khaitan47:38

       Absolutely.

    8. NKNikhil Kamath47:39

       -we still sell Indian clothing, which is probably better quality with foreign models on the face of it. So when I saw this company, which was making alcohol called Rampur and Jaisalmer, in some cases, which was not even aged as much as the Scottish counterpart, selling for more than that. And people would call me and be like, when we spoke about alcohol, they would be, "You will only get it in the duty-free, and only sometimes. Otherwise, Rampur Whiskey will be sold out." So I was enamored from the very beginning in terms of how has an Indian brand been able to pull that off? I feel that way for all industries, not just alcohol-

    9. AKAbhishek Khaitan48:20

       Absolutely. Absolutely.

    10. NKNikhil Kamath48:21

        -apparel, anything.

    11. SPSpeaker48:21

        Sometimes I'm sure your bigger market in it-- in your earlier years of products like Rampur would be international, right? And not-

    12. AKAbhishek Khaitan48:28

        No, I will, uh, I'll come to Rampur little later, but, um, so that's the time, like, what we did is because monies were limited, so and you had to be pan-India, else your marketing bucks would go waste. So I hired a team of hundred people. The average age of my team would be twenty-four.... but what I thought, if I get experienced guys, they'll ask me a lot of salaries. Second, they would not agree to what I am saying. So my average age was very less, so my, uh, payout was less. Then literally, I went to ten people begging them that, "Please bottle for me." But I didn't-- I could not put up CapEx, so it's outsourcing, co-packing, what you're saying. So I said, uh, "I'm twenty-two, about twenty-two and a half. I want to create a brand, blah, blah, blah. I'm not going to run away, so please bottle it." So I got ten people to bottle for me, and then in '98, eighth August '98, we launched our first brand, 8 PM Whiskey. And luckily, like, I don't know, the ad was very famous. It was the best, one of the best ad of the century, the India-Pakistan ad, the, this thing, it was nominated as, uh, one of the best ads. What was the ad? Remind me. It was a border ad. Mm. It was two generals, and, uh, then at the clock strike, the cannon goes up, the clock strikes, and then they pass the whiskey. It's called as Time for Friends. It's a very popular ad.

    13. SPSpeaker49:52

        Nice, mm.

    14. AKAbhishek Khaitan49:52

        So, so that's how we started. Then, from '98 to 2006, we mapped out that which are the low-lying sectors, the economy segment or the popular segment, the mass market, and we became from zero to ten million cases. What is that in money terms? Ten million cases, ... That would be what? A turnover of about six hundred, seven hundred, eight hundred crores. Mm. Eight hundred. So that is what we did, and, uh, that was fascinating. Then, the most important, which was a turnaround in our, this thing is, uh, I was in Vegas, and for me, all the good ideas either come after eight PM or at bars- Mm. -because I think that is my biggest learning. Mm. So that's my-- that's, that's where I can see the consumers, what they want.

    15. SPSpeaker50:47

        Yeah.

    16. AKAbhishek Khaitan50:47

        You, you interact at the, either at the bars or at the shop. Have you guys been to his home in Delhi?

    17. NKNikhil Kamath50:54

        Not his home.

    18. AKAbhishek Khaitan50:55

        He invited us. [chuckles]

    19. SPSpeaker50:56

        No.

    20. AKAbhishek Khaitan50:56

        I've got seven bars.

    21. SPSpeaker50:57

        He has to call us.

    22. AKAbhishek Khaitan50:57

        I've got seven bars. You'll have to come.

    23. NKNikhil Kamath50:58

        He lives like, he lives like Batman.

    24. SPSpeaker51:00

        What? [chuckles]

    25. NKNikhil Kamath51:01

        So I went-- we had an idea of starting a tequila brand with a certain famous person. I took a bunch of friends to his house recently for dinner. Outside of all the alcohol that might have been in his house, so I went in the hotel taxi, right? And we were going back. So when we were leaving, a- Abhishek sent a Rolls-Royce, a Bentley, and one or two other cars like that, and we went in, like, a pos-

    26. AKAbhishek Khaitan51:28

        Convoys

    27. NKNikhil Kamath51:28

        ... posse of cars, and I was like, "What is going on?" [chuckles] And my Innova, which was from the hotel, was following me from the back. [chuckles]

    28. SPSpeaker51:35

        Bangalore versus Delhi. [laughing]

    29. AKAbhishek Khaitan51:37

        Yeah. No, no, opposite, one of Delhi. I know, Bangalore also have a lot of people, [laughing] much more than Delhi.

    30. SPSpeaker51:46

        Starting you off with- [chuckles]
18. 54:00 – 58:50

    Promoting Indian Craftsmanship Globally

    1. AKAbhishek Khaitan54:00

       And when you actually make a brand, is when people are proud to have that sitting together. They're not shy away. Even if they like the product, they like to display it. Then, in 2014, is, um, UK and India always have this, uh, tussle that, uh, Indian whiskey cannot be called as a whiskey because it's not aged. And that's the time, if you see all the new-age malts, whether Yamazaki, et cetera, were gaining ground. Earlier, like Yamazaki, never used to get sold. Today, if you go, go to buy a fifteen or a eighteen, twenty-one-year-old Yamazaki, you won't get it in the market. Each bottle is more than a lakh of rupees. For a, a twenty-five would be, I think, about two and a half, three lakh rupees. And then they also removed the, like-

    2. SPSpeaker54:50

       No, no, there is an allocation.

    3. AKAbhishek Khaitan54:51

       Yeah, it's an allocation.

    4. SPSpeaker54:52

       They called me and they said: "Please, can I have some bottle? [chuckles] Buy a bottle."

    5. AKAbhishek Khaitan54:55

       The Yamazaki 18.

    6. SPSpeaker54:56

       Yeah, buy a bottle, but-

    7. AKAbhishek Khaitan54:57

       And also the price- In fact, I was in, uh, Hedonism-

    8. SPSpeaker55:00

       No, but we are checking

    9. AKAbhishek Khaitan55:00

       ... a bottle of Yamazaki 55, guess how much was it retailing for?

    10. NKNikhil Kamath55:04

        No idea.

    11. AKAbhishek Khaitan55:05

        Any guess?

    12. NKNikhil Kamath55:05

        Fifty lakhs.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath55:07

        ... must be?

    14. AKAbhishek Khaitan55:08

        Six and a half crores.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath55:10

        Wow!

    16. NKNikhil Kamath55:11

        And people actually buy?

    17. AKAbhishek Khaitan55:11

        Yeah, absolutely.

    18. SPSpeaker55:12

        Yeah, collect it.

    19. AKAbhishek Khaitan55:13

        It's crazy, I'm telling you.

    20. NKNikhil Kamath55:14

        I read this-

    21. SPSpeaker55:14

        It's like art, yeah.

    22. AKAbhishek Khaitan55:15

        Yeah.

    23. SPSpeaker55:15

        It's like art.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath55:16

        So the Chinese are-

    25. SPSpeaker55:17

        No price to it.

    26. NKNikhil Kamath55:18

        But art you don't drink. [laughing]

    27. AKAbhishek Khaitan55:21

        [laughing] No, but nowadays, if you see wine and malt-

    28. SPSpeaker55:24

        It is, it is part of-

    29. AKAbhishek Khaitan55:25

        It appreciates. It appreciates a lot.

    30. SPSpeaker55:26

        Yeah, and people are reselling.
19. 58:50 – 59:34

    Objective of this podcast

    1. NKNikhil Kamath58:50

       intent is to find young people out there, wannabe entrepreneurs, and tell them how they can get a job in owning a bar, starting a liquor company, working in a liquor company, doing advertising for liquor companies. Uh, this seems to be such a large ecosystem with so many opportunities, but nobody-- I looked up online, I searched a lot. No one has articulated the A to Z journey when somebody gets interested and starts working, earning a buck from this industry in a very tangible, comprehendible manner, so we'll try and attempt to do that. So before we talk about opportunities

20. 59:34 – 1:06:32

    Size of the Liquor Industry in India | Psychology of consumption

    1. NKNikhil Kamath59:34

       in this industry, maybe a good place to start is by establishing how big the industry is-

    2. AKAbhishek Khaitan59:40

       Mm

    3. NKNikhil Kamath59:40

       ... which part of it is growing faster than other parts, and, uh, then try to narrow in on what somebody looking to begin here should do. Would you say the hard liquor market in India is about $40 billion?

    4. AKAbhishek Khaitan59:56

       No, no, much more.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath59:57

       You think?

    6. AKAbhishek Khaitan59:57

       Hard liquor?

    7. NKNikhil Kamath59:58

       Hard liquor.

    8. AKAbhishek Khaitan59:59

       40 million?

    9. NKNikhil Kamath1:00:00

       Billion.

    10. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:00:01

        40 billion.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath1:00:01

        Yeah.

    12. NKNikhil Kamath1:00:01

        Yeah.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:00:01

        50 billion is total market, uh, size.

    14. SPSpeaker1:00:04

        Yeah.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath1:00:04

        And beer is about 12 billion?

    16. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:00:06

        Yeah.

    17. NKNikhil Kamath1:00:06

        Maybe about 12, 13.

    18. SPSpeaker1:00:07

        Yeah.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath1:00:07

        Something like that?

    20. NKNikhil Kamath1:00:08

        So the interesting thing is, in India is the only country in the tropical zone where you do roughly around 350 million cases of hard liquor, considering you also counti- uh, regular spirits also, and about the same quantity of beer. But if you compare it to Vietnam, which is on the same, uh, heat, uh, temperature distance, Vietnam does 300 million cases of beer, but only 30 million cases of hard liquor.

    21. NKNikhil Kamath1:00:36

        Why do you think that is?

    22. NKNikhil Kamath1:00:36

        So we are extremely over-indexed on hard liquor.

    23. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:00:38

        Why?

    24. NKNikhil Kamath1:00:39

        I think one of the key reasons is, I think, if you look at the psychology, we have to look at India-- urban India is very unlivable, and one of the big, you know, the, the consumption, uh, you know, categories that these, uh, the IMFL category gets its volumes from is the post-work, going home period, which in the traditional liquor parlance, you call it chaar yaar moment, like four people working in different jobs would come together, sit at a small theka-

    25. SPSpeaker1:01:06

        With joints theka.

    26. NKNikhil Kamath1:01:07

        Enjoy-

    27. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:01:07

        How was

    28. NKNikhil Kamath1:01:08

        ... have that one break and then go home to their... And, and, you know, look at the transit times within cities. So you have really short of time. So this moment of-

    29. SSShuchir Suri1:01:17

        ... like maybe taking a little break from your routine is very short, hence the consumption style and pattern has also been developed around this. So what happens is, we are extremely over-indexed on the one eighty ML nip. So-

    30. NKNikhil Kamath1:01:32

        What is nip?
21. 1:06:32 – 1:09:15

    Alcohol: Is it good/ bad for you?

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:06:32

       do you think alcohol net-net for society is good or bad? And explain why. Make a case on this side and on the other.

    2. MSMinakshi Singh1:06:43

       I mean, you are talking. [chuckles]

    3. SSShuchir Suri1:06:44

       [chuckles]

    4. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:06:44

       I think-

    5. SSShuchir Suri1:06:45

       I'll give you an analogy why.

    6. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:06:46

       See, anywhere where alcohol is banned, whether it was US, et cetera-

    7. MSMinakshi Singh1:06:52

       Yeah

    8. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:06:52

       ... it has led the economy-

    9. MSMinakshi Singh1:06:53

       Overconsumption

    10. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:06:54

        ... into shambles.

    11. SSShuchir Suri1:06:55

        Yeah.

    12. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:06:56

        What she's rightly saying, ac- uh, drinking alcohol in moderation is very good. Like-

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:07:00

        You're talking Kennedy time, bootlegging.

    14. SSShuchir Suri1:07:01

        Yes.

    15. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:07:02

        Yeah, yeah.

    16. MSMinakshi Singh1:07:02

        Talking about-

    17. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:07:02

        Even the doctors say-

    18. MSMinakshi Singh1:07:04

        Prohibition era

    19. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:07:04

        ... a glass of wine-

    20. MSMinakshi Singh1:07:04

        1920s

    21. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:07:05

        ... or sixty ML a day is very good for the heart. So I think anything in moderation is good. Even-

    22. NKNikhil Kamath1:07:10

        So what you're saying is, culturally, alcohol has been a part of our life-

    23. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:07:15

        Absolutely

    24. NKNikhil Kamath1:07:15

        ... for centuries, and if you ban it, what happened in US prohibition, the money from alcohol will not go to you guys, but it'll go to the-... dark elements in society.

    25. MSMinakshi Singh1:07:25

        Not even-

    26. SSShuchir Suri1:07:25

        But that being said, if, um, I don't- I'm not very good with the numbers of America, but the younger generation that I tend to engage with once in a while, they're not drinking as much as we were drinking when we were younger. At least they were not drink-

    27. NKNikhil Kamath1:07:39

        Mm.

    28. SSShuchir Suri1:07:39

        They're not drinking as much as I would drink-

    29. NKNikhil Kamath1:07:40

        Yeah

    30. SSShuchir Suri1:07:41

        ... when I was about the legal drinking age.
22. 1:09:15 – 1:10:47

    Market Share and Revenue in India

    1. SSSuraj Shenai1:09:15

       specific then, you know?

    2. NKNikhil Kamath1:09:16

       Okay, so we established that the hard liquor market is forty billion, beer is twelve billion. So we have some data that says that, correct me when I'm wrong, UB has twenty-five percent market share, followed by-

    3. SSSuraj Shenai1:09:33

       You mean spirit?

    4. NKNikhil Kamath1:09:34

       And beer together. Country liquor has twenty percent?

    5. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:09:39

       No, actually, if you see four hundred million-

    6. SSSuraj Shenai1:09:42

       In terms of value terms.

    7. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:09:43

       No, I'll tell you the thing.

    8. MSMinakshi Singh1:09:44

       Yeah.

    9. SSSuraj Shenai1:09:44

       Value terms, yes.

    10. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:09:45

        No.

    11. SSSuraj Shenai1:09:46

        Not volume, no.

    12. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:09:46

        Four hundred million is the hard liquor.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:09:49

        Mm.

    14. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:09:50

        So four hundred million cases, country liquor would be again, a three hundred million cases market.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath1:09:56

        But maybe not, uh-

    16. SSShuchir Suri1:09:57

        In numbers, fifty-one percent is-

    17. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:09:59

        Revenue

    18. SSShuchir Suri1:10:00

        ... is country liquor.

    19. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:10:00

        So value would be very less.

    20. SSShuchir Suri1:10:01

        Yeah.

    21. MSMinakshi Singh1:10:01

        Revenue?

    22. SSShuchir Suri1:10:02

        Revenue would, fifty-one percent, won't it be country liquor?

    23. SSSuraj Shenai1:10:05

        No, no, much, much less.

    24. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:10:06

        No, much less.

    25. SSSuraj Shenai1:10:06

        Twenty percent, your state data is correct.

    26. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:10:09

        Much less-

    27. MSMinakshi Singh1:10:09

        Because the-

    28. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:10:10

        The value is very less.

    29. MSMinakshi Singh1:10:11

        The value is low.

    30. SSSuraj Shenai1:10:11

        Yeah.
23. 1:10:47 – 1:26:00

    Steps to Start a Liquor brand | Primary, Secondary, Tertiary Steps

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:10:47

       on? Imagine I am a twenty-five-year-old who has managed to raise ten crore rupees, and I want to start a liquor brand. Should I do tequila? Should I try and figure out what UB is doing correctly? I had an interesting conversation with an ex-executive at UB, who said that off late, they've been trying to push Heineken-

    2. SSSuraj Shenai1:11:11

       Mm

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:11:11

       ... instead of KF.

    4. SSSuraj Shenai1:11:12

       Absolutely.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:11:12

       It's a strategy that has not worked-

    6. SSSuraj Shenai1:11:14

       Yes

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:11:15

       ... and they're falling back on selling KF again.

    8. SSSuraj Shenai1:11:17

       Exactly.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath1:11:18

       Something on those lines.

    10. SSSuraj Shenai1:11:19

        Yeah.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath1:11:19

        Okay-

    12. SSSuraj Shenai1:11:19

        Silver, Heineken Silver was their, uh, moat.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:11:23

        Right.

    14. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:11:23

        Same thing which happened, like if you see the cola wars, which happened with Thums Up and Coke.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath1:11:28

        Yeah. So what do I do? I have ten crore rupees that I have raised. A venture capital fund has given me the money. I want to start a liquor, liquor brand. What should I start?

    16. SSShuchir Suri1:11:38

        So, um, I deal with these young people on a daily basis who want to start a liquor brand. Uh, when you talk about numbers and market share, most of these kids do not know their numbers, and they don't want to go into building a tequila or building a gin because they want to capture market share. They, they want to create a product. They want-- The first thing that they want to create is they want to create a differentiated product, which is the first thing that they come up with, saying that, "Oh, my gin has, uh, hemp seeds in it, that's why I'm different," or, "My tequila has this certain type of agave that I'm importing in, that's why I'm different." They don't go in with the mentality, saying that, "Oh, I want to capture fifty percent market share of the gin category in the country," number one. Number two, they feel that the Indian brands or the international brands which are there, uh, they can do a better job in packaging, positioning, marketing, compared to these bigger players. Thirdly, they feel it's become much easier compared to, uh, what it was before, that, "Okay, I know a friend who knows a co-packer. All I have to go and do is create a recipe. I don't want to be a manufacturer, I want to be a brand owner, and I want to be a distributor versus going into the entire CapEx model."

    17. NKNikhil Kamath1:12:48

        Can you manufacture brew on your own with ten crore rupee capital that I've raised?

    18. SSShuchir Suri1:12:55

        You can set up a-

    19. NKNikhil Kamath1:12:56

        You have to go to a co-packer, right?

    20. SSShuchir Suri1:12:56

        You can set up a distillery with... but most of your money will go into just setting-

    21. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:13:01

        No, distillery, you cannot set up with ten crore. Nothing.

    22. MSMinakshi Singh1:13:02

        Distillery is too less.

    23. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:13:04

        It's less-

    24. MSMinakshi Singh1:13:04

        Uh, brewery, I think you can answer that up.

    25. SSSuraj Shenai1:13:06

        I raised, my first round was eight crores, and we spent almost six in CapEx-

    26. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:13:10

        In CapEx.

    27. MSMinakshi Singh1:13:10

        Yeah

    28. SSSuraj Shenai1:13:10

        ... because we really wanted the best equipment to brew. But that was the whole journey that came to the point that, you know, we'd done all, everything that we could, and then you only needed the money.

    29. NKNikhil Kamath1:13:21

        So with six crore rupees in equipment, you can start a independent beer company in India?

    30. SSSuraj Shenai1:13:26

        ... but the, the journey to the six crore is not the-- see, the money is the least important thing in this whole matrix. I think one of the most important things is you, once you, the, what you are trying to do has to fully resonate with you. Like how Meenakshi's been running her bar for day in, day out for years, and you keep getting better at what you do by being at it.
24. 1:26:00 – 1:54:26

    Opportunities in the Current Trends | Category, Product, Price

    1. SSSuraj Shenai1:26:00

       behind.

    2. NKNikhil Kamath1:26:01

       So, because you guys are experts in this, where do you think-- I'll come to each one of you individually, where is the opportunity today? I'll ask you in terms of, Suraj can tell me this kind of beer made with this kind of-

    3. SSSuraj Shenai1:26:16

       Yeah

    4. NKNikhil Kamath1:26:16

       ... ingredient at X price point, with maybe Y story. Maybe you can tell me tequila made from whatever, agave, extra anejo-

    5. SSSuraj Shenai1:26:26

       Yeah

    6. NKNikhil Kamath1:26:26

       ... being sold at five thousand rupees, how to make that happen? You can tell me based on what you're seeing in your bar as something where the demand is growing exponentially, and Abhishek can tell me who can build a competitive product-

    7. SSShuchir Suri1:26:40

       Yes

    8. NKNikhil Kamath1:26:40

       ... to what is selling best at Radico in the least tumultuous way as possible.

    9. SSShuchir Suri1:26:47

       But is the goal of this question to become a billion-dollar business, or is it to build something that you're passionate about?

    10. NKNikhil Kamath1:26:53

        Something that's profitable in nature.

    11. SSSuraj Shenai1:26:55

        Yeah.

    12. SSShuchir Suri1:26:55

        Okay.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:26:56

        It doesn't have to have the scale of a billion dollars. Uh-

    14. MSMinakshi Singh1:27:00

        Anyways.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath1:27:00

        Okay.

    16. SSShuchir Suri1:27:01

        Got it.

    17. NKNikhil Kamath1:27:01

        So we start with, take a second to think about it. Who would like to go first? Idea, price point, product, category.

    18. SSSuraj Shenai1:27:11

        So I think one of the best opportunities right now is, if you think about large multinationals, the value which is available in the Indian beer market, I'll only speak about beer right now, lies in the category where the Indian consumer slowly upgraded from the Kingfishers of the world now to a Budweiser or Heineken. They've already come to a twenty, twenty-five percent. This is currently roughly around a fifty-five to sixty million case industry. That's the price point where you actually make money proportionate to the investment and everything, so it's, it's, it delivers better margin. If you now can take these consumers who are already here, so the consumer psychology is that, that, that consumer wants something better. Take it to a destination product. There may be multiple destinations, so you can upgrade a consumer who's seeking quality is always a great starting point. I think look at price elasticity. Don't go to hundred percent markup on a existing large category. Category building is absolutely not possible in beer.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath1:28:09

        Okay, so what you're saying is, take the premiumized cus- consumer who has moved from KF to Heineken-

    20. SSSuraj Shenai1:28:16

        Yes

    21. NKNikhil Kamath1:28:16

        ... who is willing to pay a couple of hundred bucks for a beer.

    22. SSSuraj Shenai1:28:18

        And, and that consumer is going to be far more willing because he's seeking or she's-

    23. NKNikhil Kamath1:28:24

        Mm

    24. SSSuraj Shenai1:28:24

        ... seeking this product quality as a driver, and, and they will be more than willing to come and upgrade. So there is a constant, uh, journey that's, uh, that's accumulated to a large enough pool now.

    25. NKNikhil Kamath1:28:35

        Minakshi?

    26. MSMinakshi Singh1:28:36

        I know what I'm gonna say. It has to be bourbon whiskey. Uh, coming from two, three things, um, that I really believe in. Uh, India, I mean, and again, coming from the fact that we are talking cocktail consuming, cocktail, the way consumption is growing, it is one of the biggest drivers of the way consumption is happening in India. Uh, again, again, urban centers more so than rural, but then again, Tier Two as well. There are many, many cases and great restaurants and bars opening in Tier Two as well. And you can see that the major driver of consumption is through cocktails. Um, what that-

    27. NKNikhil Kamath1:29:07

        Why bourbon whiskey specifically for cocktails?

    28. MSMinakshi Singh1:29:10

        I'm coming to that. Is because cocktails were actually created in America. They were, they're American invention. [chuckles] And then, and hence, because bourbon whiskey is a whiskey that was created in America, um, has not been tapped into as such, as a base spirit in India as much as it can. We have Jim Beam, which is now being made in India, which is completely sweeping through the cocktail market. Every bar that you go to right now is actually pouring Jim Beam in their old fashioned-

    29. SSSuraj Shenai1:29:38

        Old fashioned

    30. MSMinakshi Singh1:29:38

        ... whiskey sours, all of the min mint juleps of the world, right? And what it's doing is that it doesn't have an Indian alternative. So even if I want to use the best of Indian whiskeys, most of them actually emulate Scotch, because that is our way of kind of taking the Scotch whiskey production process forward, right? The Japanese-
25. 1:54:26 – 1:55:05

    Food Break

    1. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:54:27

       [upbeat music]

26. 1:55:05 – 2:12:20

    Distribution | Hacks, Storytelling, Picking a Niche

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:55:08

       One thing, after we have decided what to build, the next logical question is distribution. Uh, she spoke about going to bars and selling by giving them taster, talking to them individually. What are the ideas for a young person starting off in distribution? How does one get it?

    2. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:55:31

       Should I go?

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:55:33

       Yeah.

    4. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:55:35

       See, like, I'll, I'll talk from the global context, and then I'll come to the Indian context. Like, globally, I wanted to make, like, what we have done in Rampur, Jaisalmer, so we export to hundred countries. Now, it's always better to see and never reinvent the wheel. So we've been country partners with E&J Gallo. They have been the largest, uh, wineries in California and the world. Them, uh, and, um, what I re- saw about their distribution model, that they are the best distributors around the globe.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:56:06

       Mm-hmm.

    6. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:56:07

       Even if they have to pay extra, but they have the distribution guys who are passionate. So globally, we also followed the same philosophy, where we had distributors, so we didn't have to invest in manpower in a country and get to the nuances. Maybe you pay extra, but you have the right guy who can sell for you.... so that was a good and a easier model. Here-

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:56:30

       But can you do that only at scale, or even if you're really small, starting up?

    8. SSSuraj Shenai1:56:33

       But for like a new business-

    9. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:56:34

       No, when you're small-

    10. SSSuraj Shenai1:56:35

        -it's very hard to get a distributor

    11. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:56:35

        ... I started with zero, like in Rampur. But like the guy, suppose my US distributor, he left a job with one of the largest, um, uh, companies in America, distribution company, and wanted to take India to the world. So started with negligible volume. Now he's, like, minting money.

    12. NKNikhil Kamath1:56:54

        Mm.

    13. AKAbhishek Khaitan1:56:55

        And, uh, in last seven years, what he's done is fantastic. Same thing in Ghana, same thing in Nigeria. So a lot of places we have done that, Singapore, a lot of places. So India, I feel distribution is the most expensive. So depending on the state, if you get the right distribution partner, you g- get the right social, and you address the, in a, in a state, suppose if you are there, you address the ten trendiest bar. So the minute you are there, other bars will copy you. They'll say that if you give-- like, if you have an entry to one on-premise, like say, SideCar in Delhi. If anyone knows that, okay, if in SideCar, your brand is there, it is accepted automatically. So I think you have to catch the overall there.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath1:57:42

        Do liquor brands give you freebies to display their alcohol?

    15. MSMinakshi Singh1:57:45

        Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they give you not just for display, they give you for activation, they give you for, for... They, they are actually-

    16. SSSuraj Shenai1:57:53

        Sampling

    17. MSMinakshi Singh1:57:53

        ... very, very important partners for you.

    18. NKNikhil Kamath1:57:54

        Right.

    19. MSMinakshi Singh1:57:55

        So, like, we are part of the same ecosystem, right? If I don't buy their brand and sell it further, then we are-- nobody's benefiting from it. So I have to work together, like, almost like a partnership. Uh, they do end up taking, [lips smack] uh, shelf space, share of throat, which basically means that how much are you pouring, which are the, uh, which are... Say, for example, I have a menu of twenty cocktails, out of which if I'm getting a majority of, say, a tie-up money, it's called a tie-up money, which basically means if I'm working with a Diageo or a Pernod or a Bacardi or a, even a Radico, I will be then prioritizing their brand over other brands to actually make cocktails with, which basically immediately turns into volumes for them, but it also gives them visibility, it also gives them activation points, touch points, consumer feedback. A lot of things happen, so it's a tool.

    20. NKNikhil Kamath1:58:41

        So if I-

    21. MSMinakshi Singh1:58:41

        So menu is a tool for you.

    22. NKNikhil Kamath1:58:42

        So if I start my Bengaluru, uh, bourbon company and sell it for fourteen hundred bucks and come to you, would you put me on your shelf because you already have a deal with your partners?

    23. MSMinakshi Singh1:58:53

        I will put you on the shelf. I will not immediately start pouring your sh- your brand. Pouring and sh- and putting it on shelf are two different things. I have almost to the tune of three hundred and fifty listed, uh, available, visible brands in the menu. Out of which-

    24. NKNikhil Kamath1:59:09

        So let's say, for example, you're selling a Diageo brand. What do they give you exactly?

    25. MSMinakshi Singh1:59:13

        So they give me multiple... See, they, they support me for New Year's and, say, Christmas activation. They support me for... So next month, we are supporting an entire month of Pride Month at the bar, so we celebrate it every year. Uh, for that, I need to make a special menu. With that menu, I need to make special drinks, which are, you know, uh, which are actually talking to the audience that I want-

    26. NKNikhil Kamath1:59:33

        Right

    27. MSMinakshi Singh1:59:33

        ... at the bar. I'm also doing like some, an event, which is a talking conversation, sort of sit down, which we do every year. Then we, uh, we end it with a big party, with a big band.

    28. NKNikhil Kamath1:59:43

        Mm.

    29. MSMinakshi Singh1:59:43

        I need money for all of these things. If I bring, like, a band, band takes money. If I give-- bring a photographer, photographer will take money. So I'm taking money for this A brand-

    30. NKNikhil Kamath1:59:52

        Mm
27. 2:12:20 – 2:15:20

    Marketing Budgets in different states in India

    1. SSShuchir Suri2:12:20

       comes to me and tells me, "We want to launch a brand, or we want to activate the brand," we create something called a one-nine-ninety, right? One is your big launch, where you'll spend maybe 50% or maybe 25% of your budget, which will be a Delhi or a Bombay. Then in the nine, where 50% of your budget will go, would be in your major metros, which will be Delhi, Bombay, Bangalore, where you'll target about 50 bars each, where rest of your budget will go. Then you'll get a ninety. Ninety will be a small activation, which could be a s- drink serve or a glassware or a, a tower, which will go across majority outlets across every city in m- in wh- whichever cities that you want to activate. So that's how you have to split your marketing budget. You cannot only, uh, do one launch and, uh, extinguish-

    2. MSMinakshi Singh2:13:06

       Oof

    3. SSShuchir Suri2:13:06

       ... your marketing budget.

    4. MSMinakshi Singh2:13:07

       That happens. We see in many, many brands.

    5. SSShuchir Suri2:13:09

       Right? You have to go consistent, you have to go-

    6. SSSuraj Shenai2:13:10

       And your marketing budget is like the artillery.

    7. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:13:11

       And secret of the recipe is Mumbai.

    8. SSSuraj Shenai2:13:13

       Like the dry powder.

    9. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:13:13

       It's the most costliest. Mumbai-

    10. MSMinakshi Singh2:13:15

        Yeah

    11. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:13:15

        ... is the costliest-

    12. MSMinakshi Singh2:13:16

        To?

    13. SSSuraj Shenai2:13:16

        Yeah.

    14. MSMinakshi Singh2:13:17

        Convert.

    15. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:13:18

        Any city.

    16. MSMinakshi Singh2:13:19

        Mm.

    17. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:13:19

        Like, if you wants to launch his beer from Mumbai-

    18. MSMinakshi Singh2:13:22

        Mm.

    19. SSSuraj Shenai2:13:22

        Yeah

    20. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:13:23

        ... as a startup, it's very tough.

    21. MSMinakshi Singh2:13:25

        Yeah.

    22. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:13:25

        The kind of money-

    23. SSSuraj Shenai2:13:26

        Because it's-

    24. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:13:26

        ... it burns, like, you know, it, like, I, I, I address Mumbai the last.

    25. SSSuraj Shenai2:13:30

        You always do.

    26. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:13:31

        It's the, it's the most, uh, expensive market. Am I right?

    27. SSSuraj Shenai2:13:34

        Yeah, absolutely.

    28. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:13:35

        So if I'm starting-

    29. SSSuraj Shenai2:13:35

        Because the high entry barrier-

    30. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:13:37

        Yeah
28. 2:15:20 – 2:17:30

    Revenue Generation Tax in states through liquor

    1. NKNikhil Kamath2:15:22

       what percentage of a state's revenue comes from alcohol? The highest-

    2. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:15:28

       Eighteen percent

    3. NKNikhil Kamath2:15:28

       ... happens to be Uttar Pradesh, twenty-two percent.

    4. SSShuchir Suri2:15:31

       Mm.

    5. SSSuraj Shenai2:15:31

       Yeah.

    6. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:15:31

       And I-- we contribute twenty-six percent of the state's revenue.

    7. SSSuraj Shenai2:15:34

       Wow!

    8. SPSpeaker2:15:35

       That's crazy.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath2:15:36

       Karnataka, twenty percent.

    10. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:15:37

        Twelve thousand crores.

    11. SSSuraj Shenai2:15:38

        Mm.

    12. SSShuchir Suri2:15:39

        Because Karnataka's taxation is mad.

    13. SSSuraj Shenai2:15:41

        It's, yeah, very high.

    14. SSShuchir Suri2:15:42

        It's like eighty percent tax is what you pay in, uh, in between-

    15. SPSpeaker2:15:45

        Karnataka is probably the worst-

    16. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:15:46

        Second is-

    17. SSSuraj Shenai2:15:46

        The worst

    18. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:15:47

        Tamil Nadu?

    19. NKNikhil Kamath2:15:48

        Second is Karnataka.

    20. SPSpeaker2:15:49

        Yeah.

    21. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:15:49

        Achha, third Tamil Nadu.

    22. NKNikhil Kamath2:15:50

        Bengal.

    23. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:15:51

        Bengal nahi hoga hai.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath2:15:52

        Twenty point two percent.

    25. SSSuraj Shenai2:15:54

        Percentage-wise.

    26. NKNikhil Kamath2:15:54

        Percentage-wise.

    27. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:15:54

        Achha, percentage-wise, yeah.

    28. NKNikhil Kamath2:15:55

        Actually, sorry, Pondicherry is forty percent.

    29. SSShuchir Suri2:15:58

        And that's also a distribution hub. It's not actually a place where people-

    30. NKNikhil Kamath2:16:02

        Then comes Punjab, Uttarakhand, Himachal, uh, MP, Andhra-
29. 2:17:30 – 2:24:32

    Nikhil on Long term Investment in Liquor Companies In India

    1. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:17:30

       of that.

    2. NKNikhil Kamath2:17:30

       So-

    3. SSSuraj Shenai2:17:31

       I have a question for you-

    4. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:17:31

       It takes a long time

    5. SSSuraj Shenai2:17:32

       ... now. I, this is-

    6. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:17:33

       Yeah

    7. SSSuraj Shenai2:17:33

       ... then I, I, I-- so let's, uh, you know, think about it that, you know, you Alco..., Alcobev is slower because let's say if you were-- India is the biggest whiskey market-

    8. NKNikhil Kamath2:17:46

       Mm.

    9. SSSuraj Shenai2:17:46

       -but we have, apart from, like, the biggest guys, like Radico Khaitan or, you know, Pernod or Diageo of the world, nobody's making malt spirit here.

    10. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:17:55

        Right.

    11. SSSuraj Shenai2:17:55

        One of the reasons is, if you start malt, you have to mature it for eight years, twelve years. Now, I went the whole route of with zero money, starting, going to investors in two thousand and seventeen, eighteen, just with an ice box. Even the laptop was owned by Pernod Ricard. So literally, most of the investors back in the day were all tech investors, and they had-- they were very new to consumer.

    12. NKNikhil Kamath2:18:17

        Mm.

    13. SSSuraj Shenai2:18:17

        And any kind of open market money that's available in India looks at that same eleven-year return-

    14. NKNikhil Kamath2:18:23

        Mm

    15. SSSuraj Shenai2:18:23

        ... that everyone has to give to their LPs.

    16. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:18:25

        Seven years.

    17. SSSuraj Shenai2:18:25

        Seven year, yeah, or even shorter.

    18. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:18:27

        Mm.

    19. SSSuraj Shenai2:18:27

        The term sheets are five years, plus-

    20. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:18:28

        Yeah

    21. SSSuraj Shenai2:18:28

        ... five plus two, but you probably give the money-

    22. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:18:31

        Typically, typically five plus five.

    23. NKNikhil Kamath2:18:32

        Yeah, seven would be-

    24. SSSuraj Shenai2:18:32

        So how would you now create this kind of-- if you were to... You, you see, this is a three hundred million dollar, uh, three hundred million cases industry, largely run by whiskey, with zero upgrade happening on product, essentially because there is no capital that can finance a business that can have those many legs or the length of it. As a person who is from finance, what would be the product that you would probably create for this, this category in terms of terms of funding? If somebody would come to you and say: "I would want to build a malt distillery, and, you know, the returns would come after twelve years," how would you look at it? What would be that view?

    25. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:19:10

        Good question. As a startup?

    26. SSSuraj Shenai2:19:12

        Yeah, as a startup. Phenomenal-

    27. NKNikhil Kamath2:19:15

        I think-

    28. SSSuraj Shenai2:19:15

        ... product made in a small lab.

    29. NKNikhil Kamath2:19:16

        Mm. I think we are a little bit of an exception to that rule because we are a perpetual fund of sorts. Because we don't allocate third-party money, and it's mostly prop money, we have really long tenures. The current thesis I have, uh, thesis, passion, fascination is to watch Indian brands kill it abroad.

    30. SSSuraj Shenai2:19:41

        Mm.
30. 2:24:32 – 2:31:46

    Celebrity Led Liquor Brands: Do they work?

    1. NKNikhil Kamath2:24:32

       celebrity-led brands? Do you think it works? I know in fashion, I'll give you ex- an example. Uh, when I've looked at fashion, cosmetic, uh, brands led by celebrities, in India have not worked, globally have worked. There's some dichotomy there. I don't know why it is not working in India. What do you think will be the use case for alcohol?

    2. SSShuchir Suri2:25:02

       So globally-

    3. NKNikhil Kamath2:25:03

       Who's taking it?

    4. SSShuchir Suri2:25:03

       ... uh, the people who are building, uh, the people who are building, um, alcohol brands, um, in America were celebrities, and the following was of a certain, uh, strata and of a certain disposable income that would follow them, right? So tomorrow, if Ranveer Singh starts an alcohol brand of a premium segment, the people will see through that, right? So I'm not going to start drinking a certain type of product because a Ranveer Singh drinks it.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath2:25:33

       Who should start what? Which actor should start what?

    6. SSShuchir Suri2:25:37

       I think, um, Aryan Khan, what he's doing, I think he's doing a good job.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath2:25:42

       The Diavol.

    8. SSShuchir Suri2:25:42

       Diavol.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath2:25:43

       Diavol Vodka, yeah.

    10. SSShuchir Suri2:25:43

        He's got a, he's got a vodka. He's got a malt now-

    11. NKNikhil Kamath2:25:46

        Yeah

    12. SSShuchir Suri2:25:46

        ... and he's got a fashion brand.

    13. SSShuchir Suri2:25:48

        I think Zeenat Aman should do a wine, [chuckles] if at all.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath2:25:51

        Wow!

    15. SSShuchir Suri2:25:51

        You know, I think it's very interesting.

    16. NKNikhil Kamath2:25:53

        Very interesting.

    17. SSShuchir Suri2:25:53

        Yeah. You know, because p- see, you know-

    18. NKNikhil Kamath2:25:55

        I feel it's the brand fit that they were talking about

    19. SSShuchir Suri2:25:55

        ... Ryan Reynolds built Aviation, because he was also-

    20. SSShuchir Suri2:25:58

        No, but Zeenat Aman, how many of the people would know her now?

    21. SSShuchir Suri2:26:01

        No, no, regardless, I'm saying, like, you know, if you see-

    22. NKNikhil Kamath2:26:03

        She's the coolest

    23. SSShuchir Suri2:26:04

        ... how Ryan Reynolds-

    24. NKNikhil Kamath2:26:04

        She's the coolest person on the planet. [chuckles]

    25. SSShuchir Suri2:26:05

        No, you're talking about a celebrity endorsement or celebrity doing a brand?

    26. SSShuchir Suri2:26:09

        No, no, own brand.

    27. NKNikhil Kamath2:26:10

        Own.

    28. SSShuchir Suri2:26:10

        Own brand. Like if-

    29. NKNikhil Kamath2:26:10

        Does endorsement work? Because I know many-

    30. SSShuchir Suri2:26:12

        Own brand hi hota hai. It's basically putting-
31. 2:31:46 – 2:35:35

    Are Social Media Influencers effective in Advertising?

    1. NKNikhil Kamath2:31:46

       So if actors don't necessarily work for India, what about social media influencers? Are they a good medium to sell alcohol?

    2. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:31:54

       Yes.

    3. NKNikhil Kamath2:31:55

       Yeah?

    4. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:31:56

       But sell alcohol means for a brand or what?

    5. NKNikhil Kamath2:31:58

       For a brand.

    6. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:31:59

       Like, for advertisement, hundred percent.

    7. MSMinakshi Singh2:32:01

       They do. Uh, you have to be careful on who you're investing on and, uh, do your research. I feel there are now apps, and there are ways to actually find out if that influencer is bought or of who that person is talking to-

    8. SSSuraj Shenai2:32:13

       Yeah

    9. MSMinakshi Singh2:32:13

       ... what the male to female ratio is-

    10. SSShuchir Suri2:32:15

        And the niche of, niche of the influencer

    11. NKNikhil Kamath2:32:16

        Depends, depends on the product

    12. MSMinakshi Singh2:32:17

        Which city, which city they are operating in. So now, good thing is that-

    13. NKNikhil Kamath2:32:20

        So you would go through an agency?

    14. MSMinakshi Singh2:32:21

        It's a far cheaper way to acquire consumers-

    15. NKNikhil Kamath2:32:24

        Than actors

    16. MSMinakshi Singh2:32:25

        ... than, than actors.

    17. SSSuraj Shenai2:32:25

        Reachability.

    18. MSMinakshi Singh2:32:26

        Than actors. But also, having said that, uh, what influencers also do for you is that they are also physically present-

    19. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:32:33

        Right

    20. MSMinakshi Singh2:32:33

        ... which actually changes the game a little bit. It is kind of like the digital way of experiencing the brand, you know, in the sense that they will taste, say, a whiskey, and be like, "Mm, I find it, like, smoky."

    21. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:32:44

        No, a-

    22. MSMinakshi Singh2:32:44

        You know, that kind of trust-

    23. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:32:44

        Also, it depends on the category. If the higher you go, suppose you go eight, ten thousand, you don't need any marketing.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath2:32:51

        Mm.

    25. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:32:52

        If you market, you won't be able to sell.... the only thing should be word of mouth and PR, press, and the competitions. If you go highest up-

    26. MSMinakshi Singh2:33:04

        Yeah, there, there are spirits competitions.

    27. NKNikhil Kamath2:33:05

        Is that what worked for your five lakh rupee bottle? Because I saw it in the press.

    28. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:33:08

        Five lakh, Rampur, Jaisalmer, everything.

    29. MSMinakshi Singh2:33:10

        Even Rampur and Jaisalmer-

    30. AKAbhishek Khaitan2:33:11

        Yeah

Episode duration: 3:12:52