Ep. #2: Secrets of Social Media Success, Mental Health & Distribution Hacks - 3 OGs Reveal All

1. 0:00 – 0:32

   Intro

   1. UBUmang Bedi0:00

      when you're looking into TikTok, TikTok's looking straight back into you.

   2. TBTanmay Bhat0:05

      Dude, e- envy is the fuel for social media, and it acts out in different ways, right?

   3. UBUmang Bedi0:09

      Time spent in China on short video is two and a half hours a day.

   4. SPSpeaker0:15

      We weren't ever programmed to go through so much, either happiness or sadness, [laughing] so much.

   5. NKNikhil Kamath0:22

      Are you in a relationship, Tanmay?

   6. TBTanmay Bhat0:24

      Why are all of you so interested in my dating life? [laughing] It's fascinating to me.

2. 0:32 – 2:51

   Pissing on Planes

   1. NKNikhil Kamath0:32

      So we're talking about people pissing on the plane. [laughing] What do you think about it? [laughing] Is it something that should be encouraged, discouraged? [laughing]

   2. SPSpeaker0:45

      Why do you think they're doing it? Like, what, what, what's in it, like-

   3. NKNikhil Kamath0:49

      My first thought was somebody was piss drunk, and he-

   4. SPSpeaker0:52

      And he didn't know where the bathroom was?

   5. NKNikhil Kamath0:53

      Yeah.

   6. SPSpeaker0:54

      He just wanted to-

   7. UBUmang Bedi0:54

      That's what I thought.

   8. NKNikhil Kamath0:54

      Yeah.

   9. SPSpeaker0:55

      Yeah.

   10. UBUmang Bedi0:56

       That's what I thought.

   11. NKNikhil Kamath0:56

       But-

   12. UBUmang Bedi0:57

       I mean, unless you're a major attention seeker, uh, there's no other explanation. [laughing]

   13. TBTanmay Bhat1:01

       I'm a major attention seeker, and I've gotten away with not pissing on people. [laughing] I took a... I took, uh-

   14. SPSpeaker1:08

       It only happens on [censored] .

   15. NKNikhil Kamath1:10

       Yeah, why is that?

   16. UBUmang Bedi1:11

       Yeah, it's funny.

   17. TBTanmay Bhat1:12

       I mean, it's happened... It doesn't happen, it happened once.

   18. SPSpeaker1:15

       It comes-

   19. TBTanmay Bhat1:16

       It happened twice.

   20. SPSpeaker1:16

       All the planes are from US.

   21. TBTanmay Bhat1:18

       Oh, it happened twice?

   22. UBUmang Bedi1:18

       Yeah, it's happened twice.

   23. TBTanmay Bhat1:20

       Oh, wow!

   24. SPSpeaker1:20

       Twice, dude.

   25. NKNikhil Kamath1:20

       Do you think it could also be 'cause there is one loo, and it's a long-haul flight, and people are not able to wait?

   26. TBTanmay Bhat1:27

       I don't think it's that.

   27. NKNikhil Kamath1:28

       No?

   28. TBTanmay Bhat1:29

       I don't think it's that.

   29. SPSpeaker1:30

       Is it a problem with the-

   30. TBTanmay Bhat1:30

       I think, I think if, if, if it was that, then you piss yourself, right? You don't piss on somebody. [chuckles]
3. 2:51 – 3:14

   Media Today

   1. NKNikhil Kamath2:51

      think people are so disenfranchised by media per se, overall, that the go-to emotion of late is becoming whatever is coming on TV is probably false. I don't know if you guys feel that, but-

   2. SPSpeaker3:05

      It's either biased-

   3. NKNikhil Kamath3:06

      Yeah

   4. SPSpeaker3:06

      ... or false.

   5. NKNikhil Kamath3:07

      Yeah.

   6. SPSpeaker3:08

      These are the two main emotions.

   7. TBTanmay Bhat3:10

      Agenda, agenda-driven-

   8. UBUmang Bedi3:12

      Yeah

   9. TBTanmay Bhat3:12

      ... something. I think, yeah, uh,

4. 3:14 – 10:42

   Psychology of Validation on social media

   1. TBTanmay Bhat3:14

      the problem... I remember when I made an observation during AIB, which is we went from, we went from people being able to comment on something, to the comments getting likes, right?

   2. SPSpeaker3:30

      Mm.

   3. TBTanmay Bhat3:30

      Similarly, on Twitter, we went from quote RT-ing something. Early days of Twitter, there was no retweet button.

   4. SPSpeaker3:36

      Mm.

   5. TBTanmay Bhat3:36

      There was a quote RT. You, you would copy someone's tweet, and you would put RT in front of it, and you would paste the tweet. But the second they added retweets, and the second Facebook added likes to comments-

   6. SPSpeaker3:49

      Mm

   7. TBTanmay Bhat3:50

      ... that changed the game because all of a sudden, likes were everyone's, everyone's game, not just the person who's, who's posting. So-

   8. NKNikhil Kamath3:58

      Why do you think that is? Why do we feel... Why do we feel so happy when we get acknowledgement or somebody likes something that we have posted, from a psychological standpoint? I think that's inherently-

   9. UBUmang Bedi4:10

      Yeah

   10. NKNikhil Kamath4:10

       ... the use case of social media today, right?

   11. UBUmang Bedi4:12

       So if you think about it, it's all designed around the human brain, right? And if you think about, uh, and we'll get into the details of social media, but it's built on, one, a lot of insight about you, two, a lot of insight about your likes and dislikes, and your network, right? Um, even before you follow one person or friend someone, or follow a source, what 99% or 90%-plus, at least, of people on social media do, is give the platform access to their phonebook. Uh, and what that does is the platform now knows, uh, in the billions of people on planet Earth, who's friends with whom, by making those connections, right? Now, with that naivety, uh, which is where it begins, uh, there comes the gratification, because at the end of the day, man is a social being. And, uh, what at least neuroscience has shown is that they love getting acknowledgement, right?

   12. TBTanmay Bhat5:13

       Of course. Yeah.

   13. UBUmang Bedi5:14

       Um, and I'll give you a fun experiment, and this is a true story. I walked into a room at the hotel next door, um, and I met someone, uh, and we were a thousand of us.

   14. NKNikhil Kamath5:24

       Mm.

   15. UBUmang Bedi5:25

       Okay? So we went into the room, and, uh, we then sat on tables, right? He's a foreigner. We are thousand Indians, uh, from north, west, south, east, different names, different pronunciations, different accents in the way we frame our name. But let's... You know what he did, which was shocking, is he stood up on stage, and everyone sat randomly, right? They came in all between 8:00 and 9:00 PM. The event started at 9:00 PM. He named each person by name. Now, that's insane. Um-

   16. NKNikhil Kamath5:59

       A thousand people?

   17. UBUmang Bedi6:00

       A thousand people. Now, let's say you and I meet for the first time, right?

   18. NKNikhil Kamath6:03

       Mm.

   19. UBUmang Bedi6:03

       And we shake hands, and you say, "Hey, I'm Umang."

   20. NKNikhil Kamath6:05

       Mm.

   21. UBUmang Bedi6:06

       And you say, "Hey, I'm Nikhil."

   22. NKNikhil Kamath6:07

       Mm.

   23. UBUmang Bedi6:07

       Right?... I didn't even freaking hear Nikhil.

   24. TBTanmay Bhat6:10

       Hmm.

   25. UBUmang Bedi6:11

       Because the human brain is, we're so much in love with our own voice, that I just heard, "Hey, I'm Umang," and I love the sound of my own voice, right?

   26. TBTanmay Bhat6:21

       It is a nice voice.

   27. UBUmang Bedi6:22

       It- thank you. I appreciate it. [laughing] But the thing is that most of us don't, uh, actively listen. We're, we're kind of in our own bubble, uh, and that's the beginning of that dopamine hit.

   28. TBTanmay Bhat6:35

       Hmm.

   29. UBUmang Bedi6:36

       So the fact that if somebody compliments Nikhil-

   30. TBTanmay Bhat6:39

       Hmm
5. 10:42 – 12:49

   Validation on and offline

   1. UBUmang Bedi10:42

      So, [exhales] on social media, you actually have... You, you've said something, you've said one line-

   2. NKNikhil Kamath10:49

      Hmm

   3. UBUmang Bedi10:49

      ... and you've got an opportunity to wait for people to like, dislike, comment, blah, everything. So Umang said quite a few things. In the offline world, we're not able to do that. Like, I'm not able to send likes to him.

   4. NKNikhil Kamath11:02

      Sadly. [laughing]

   5. UBUmang Bedi11:04

      [laughing] Right?

   6. NKNikhil Kamath11:05

      Hmm.

   7. UBUmang Bedi11:05

      So saying it online and having a conversation there is a lot more, uh, fruitful for me, for the dopamine hit that I will get.

   8. NKNikhil Kamath11:15

      Right.

   9. TBTanmay Bhat11:15

      Yeah.

   10. NKNikhil Kamath11:16

       Right.

   11. UBUmang Bedi11:16

       Right? And hence, like, even the comments. My comment in the offline world or otherwise, was never-

   12. NKNikhil Kamath11:23

       Captured

   13. UBUmang Bedi11:23

       ... ever, you know, acknowledged.

   14. NKNikhil Kamath11:25

       Hmm.

   15. UBUmang Bedi11:26

       Nobody even said, "Oh, okay, you said that," as a comment to that guy. Now, it suddenly got acknowledged, and hence, the discussions, everything else. You know, those guys started getting a dopamine hit, and hence-

   16. NKNikhil Kamath11:38

       Right

   17. UBUmang Bedi11:39

       ... and that's the difference.

   18. TBTanmay Bhat11:40

       We're always trying to... Like, in the old days, when before we were all hyper-connected, we were born in a tribe, right? And all your validation came from your tribe. But since we got- everybody got connected, multiple tribes interact and/or we are part of many tribes. So in every comment section, you're trying to find your tribe.

   19. UBUmang Bedi12:01

       Hmm.

   20. TBTanmay Bhat12:01

       Um, on every platform, you're trying to find your tribe.

   21. UBUmang Bedi12:04

       Yeah.

   22. TBTanmay Bhat12:04

       You always wanna find people who think like you and, and like you.

   23. UBUmang Bedi12:08

       Hmm.

   24. TBTanmay Bhat12:08

       So that's the reason why, [clear throat] you're always hunting for likes, retweets, views.

   25. NKNikhil Kamath12:13

       If you had to go one step higher and say-

   26. NKNikhil Kamath12:17

       ... why do humans care so much about validation from whatever peer group, either offline or online? Why do you think we're innately programmed like that?

   27. TBTanmay Bhat12:27

       I think we always want your own tribe, for this is, uh- it's, it's a primal need for safety, which is, um, which is knowing that you're part of a group makes you feel safer. That is, I think, the most primal need, which is-

   28. SPSpeaker12:47

       I also think-

   29. TBTanmay Bhat12:47

       feeling safe

   30. SPSpeaker12:48

       ... you know, at a very deep

6. 12:49 – 13:57

   Man is a selfish being

   1. SPSpeaker12:49

      level, man is a, and I use this word carefully, a selfish being, right?

   2. TBTanmay Bhat12:54

      Yeah.

   3. SPSpeaker12:55

      Um, and, I mean, don't take selfish and, you know, selfish all the time there-

   4. NKNikhil Kamath13:00

      Self-preservatory.

   5. SPSpeaker13:01

      Self-preservatory, right?

   6. TBTanmay Bhat13:02

      Yeah.

   7. SPSpeaker13:02

      And so any validation-

   8. NKNikhil Kamath13:05

      I would say more selfish than self-preservatory. 'Cause if you go back in time and-

   9. SPSpeaker13:09

      Yeah

   10. NKNikhil Kamath13:09

       ... there were a bunch of people and you hunted for food, I think you would innately want to be the strongest hunter in that community.

   11. TBTanmay Bhat13:17

       It's for self-preservation, right? Otherwise, if you-

   12. SPSpeaker13:20

       You could probably-

   13. TBTanmay Bhat13:20

       If you won't, you die.

   14. SPSpeaker13:21

       You are getting technical on a very non-technical [laughing] -

   15. NKNikhil Kamath13:23

       Anyway, yeah, yeah, go on. Huh.

   16. SPSpeaker13:25

       But essentially, if you are that selfish being, you want that gratification.

   17. NKNikhil Kamath13:29

       Yeah.

   18. SPSpeaker13:29

       You want to be told how good you are, you want to be... You want that positive side. And when there's that negative s- onslaught that comes onto you, you don't like it, right? Because social media has both sides. Uh, you get the good and the bad, right? Uh, and there are also good actors in society, and there are bad actors in society, in the physical world, and they manifest themselves in the, in that platform world or the digital world as well. So that's another peril, and of course, we can go deeper there. Um, but it's, it's crazy.

7. 13:57 – 15:06

   Why was social media created?

   1. NKNikhil Kamath13:57

      So first, to kind of figure out why social media was created-

   2. SPSpeaker14:01

      Yeah

   3. NKNikhil Kamath14:01

      ... since you guys are essentially in this line of work, uh, A, what did you personally use first, and what existed before that to connect to a community?

   4. SPSpeaker14:13

      Yeah. So my first ever use of the Internet, late- mid to late 1990s, right? Uh, that's when I first started using the dial-up internet. I remember, you know, a friend of mine saying, "Send me an email." I went to this site called graffiti.net or something like that, and then opened up an email address and then sent him an email. As in I could talk to him on the phone, but this seemed something new, some cool thing that I could do. Uh, send him an attachment of something and, you know, he could open it there and see. So that itself was very, very cool, and then that got me interested to see what else is there. And then, a friend of mine who was browsing with me in the internet cafe, uh, he was logging into chat rooms, ICQ and-

   5. TBTanmay Bhat15:01

      Yahoo!

   6. SPSpeaker15:01

      ... you know, Yahoo! Chat room. Yeah.

   7. NKNikhil Kamath15:05

      So was that the need

8. 15:06 – 17:40

   Why do we use social media really?

   1. NKNikhil Kamath15:06

      first? [clears throat] Do you think communication led to social media-

   2. SPSpeaker15:09

      Yeah

   3. NKNikhil Kamath15:09

      ... the need to communicate?

   4. SPSpeaker15:11

      The need to connect. The, the interesting part is, somebody sitting across the world, I could connect with, and it's not part of my friends and family network.

   5. NKNikhil Kamath15:22

      So if we were to assume today's social media is about alleviating insecurities, uh, creating a social ladder, uh, when do you think it changed from connection to what we have today? And why do you think it changed?

   6. SPSpeaker15:41

      So I, I have a broad philosophy on, you know, each network being for a reason, right? So initially, just connecting with people we know was cool, was cool enough. Like Facebook is a friends and family network, and when you post there, you will get positive comments, mostly, unless you're a public celebrity, like you guys. Uh, and of course, Tanmay.

   7. NKNikhil Kamath16:07

      Like you. [laughing]

   8. TBTanmay Bhat16:07

      There's no reason to point at me twice. [laughing]

   9. SPSpeaker16:11

      So Facebook is a friends and family network-

   10. NKNikhil Kamath16:14

       Right

   11. SPSpeaker16:14

       ... and you will post holiday pictures, "I got married," "I had a kid," I-

   12. NKNikhil Kamath16:18

       But why, why are you posting your holiday pictures? Why do you want other people to see where your holiday?

   13. SPSpeaker16:23

       It's the quickest way to update a person.

   14. NKNikhil Kamath16:26

       But do you think it's to update somebody? Is... Or is it to say that in a very subconscious way-

   15. SPSpeaker16:33

       Yeah

   16. NKNikhil Kamath16:33

       ... that I am doing this cool thing-

   17. SPSpeaker16:36

       Yeah

   18. NKNikhil Kamath16:36

       ... which you are not-

   19. SPSpeaker16:37

       Yeah

   20. NKNikhil Kamath16:37

       ... and create some kind of a social hierarchy?

   21. TBTanmay Bhat16:40

       Yeah.

   22. SPSpeaker16:40

       It is. Absolutely.

   23. TBTanmay Bhat16:40

       It's-

   24. NKNikhil Kamath16:40

       More that, right?

   25. SPSpeaker16:41

       Yeah, of course.

   26. NKNikhil Kamath16:42

       Let's just... Let's all agree that nothing to do-

   27. SPSpeaker16:44

       Yeah

   28. NKNikhil Kamath16:44

       ... with updating. Yeah.

   29. SPSpeaker16:46

       Update to get back a reaction saying, "Oh, you went on a holiday to Spain? I've never been there. You're cooler than me."

   30. TBTanmay Bhat16:54

       It's of- offline behavior taken online, right? Offline also-
9. 17:40 – 19:39

   What made some of the most influential social media platforms?

   1. SPSpeaker17:40

      some of the most powerful social media platforms this big, this large, and this powerful, right? So if you talked about the old days, right, I had a Hotmail account, you had whatever-

   2. NKNikhil Kamath17:49

      Yahoo Mail.

   3. SPSpeaker17:50

      Yahoo Mail and whatever, right?

   4. NKNikhil Kamath17:51

      USA.

   5. SPSpeaker17:52

      USA.net. But if you reflect back, I can probably bet, I don't know, I'm tempted to say a, a million dollars that I don't have right now, but I'm tempted to say that you were not nikhil.kamath@ [beep] , right? You were not-

   6. NKNikhil Kamath18:07

      I think I was nikhil5868 [beep] . Yeah.

   7. SPSpeaker18:10

      Right. Uh, I was Umang Bedi O2.

   8. NKNikhil Kamath18:12

      Yeah.

   9. SPSpeaker18:12

      Uh, because O2 was my first smartphone, uh, you know, the O2, uh, ThinkPad, and I was Umang Bedi O2, and somebody was hot guy, cool gal, right? Then you-

   10. UBUmang Bedi18:23

       ... hot guy. Hot guy, right? I was tans_crazy. [laughing] Okay, [laughing] there you go. So then you graduated into these messenger rooms, where again, you further obfuscated your identity. Correct. Okay. Correct. So, and you talked about multiple identities, but the interesting fun fact, if I reflect back, the first platform where, you know, Tanmay Bhat was Tanmay Bhat, and Umang Bedi was Umang Bedi, and, you know, Nikhil Kamath was Nikhil Kamath, was Facebook. It potentially had, uh, real people with real identity. Correct. That's what made it very powerful, um, to bring in real identity data, right? So, um, and compliments to Mark and the entire team on how they built that out. But to get people to tell- to be open to share... Because I remember we all went through this phase where we don't want to reveal who we are on the internet, but suddenly we felt comfortable doing it on social media.

   11. NKNikhil Kamath19:15

       Why was that?

   12. UBUmang Bedi19:16

       It was, it was kind of a- I think it linked it to colleges first- Yeah, so it's kind of- ... which is a network within your own college. Yeah. So there was built-in trust- Yes ... that the people on the platform are people on my campus. Yes.

   13. NKNikhil Kamath19:29

       So the, the-

   14. UBUmang Bedi19:30

       You could only log in with your .harvard.edu-

   15. NKNikhil Kamath19:32

       Right

   16. UBUmang Bedi19:33

       ... net. Yeah, that's right.

   17. NKNikhil Kamath19:34

       No, the use case was to bring your offline network online.

   18. UBUmang Bedi19:38

       Yeah.

   19. NKNikhil Kamath19:38

       Right.

10. 19:39 – 21:16

    Next revolution in social media

    1. NKNikhil Kamath19:39

       Also, just to digress a little bit-

    2. UBUmang Bedi19:40

       Yeah

    3. NKNikhil Kamath19:40

       ... do you think that will be the next revolution in social media, where all the fakes are removed and there is-

    4. UBUmang Bedi19:48

       Well, Elon's trying. He's trying, but- So there are open networks, closed networks. Facebook, LinkedIn, uh, all closed networks, right? You, you have a offline professional network you're replicating online- Yeah ... is LinkedIn. Twitter, Instagram, half-half, because you can also make it closed.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath20:06

       But would you say they're too permeable right now? So even though it might be a closed network-

    6. UBUmang Bedi20:11

       Mm

    7. NKNikhil Kamath20:11

       ... there are a lot of replicas, and fakes, and stuff like that, and-

    8. UBUmang Bedi20:14

       No, they're... On LinkedIn, I will only add past, present, or somebody in the future I want to work with.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath20:20

       Right.

    10. UBUmang Bedi20:21

        So there is a- Mm ... there is an intelligence of, is, do I know him from the past or will I know him in the future, right? But on a Twitter or an Instagram, which are open networks, like even on WhatsApp, you will not find a fake WhatsApp guy. It's all real people that you know.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath20:40

        Right.

    12. UBUmang Bedi20:40

        So again, a closed network. But on open networks, this is the problem, where anybody can follow anybody, is a very Twitter and on our platform, Koo, right? Anybody can follow anybody. Now, they're curtailing fakes, curtailing, uh, showing real people. That is a unique problem of open networks. Yeah. So it, it's not necessary that this is a problem on... This is a major problem on a Facebook, LinkedIn, or WhatsApp, but it is definitely a problem on Instagram, and Koo, and Twitter. See,

11. 21:16 – 25:13

    Monetisation on social media

    1. UBUmang Bedi21:16

       I have a... I've been too close to it and have too many war stories here, but I have a philosophically different perspective on this. I feel that, and I don't know if I should be saying this in the open, but maybe I'll say it at an abstract level, right? Um, these platforms are built and are, uh, monetizing user data, right? At the end of the day. Uh, they're monetizing behavioral data, they're monetizing personal data.

    2. NKNikhil Kamath21:48

       If I were to ask, like, since you were the CEO of both Facebook and Insta India, what level does that monetization go to? Is it figuring out my preferences-

    3. UBUmang Bedi21:59

       [laughing]

    4. NKNikhil Kamath21:59

       ... to show me an ad? Or how far does it really go?

    5. UBUmang Bedi22:02

       [clears throat] Just take a knife and stab him. [laughing] Like, do you want to kill me? [laughing]

    6. NKNikhil Kamath22:09

       [laughing]

    7. UBUmang Bedi22:10

       All I can say is... Okay, I'll give you a real-world example, right? So, uh, we often thought that, um, Facebook and WhatsApp are two disparate platforms, right? And then WhatsApp released its, uh, update-

    8. NKNikhil Kamath22:25

       Mm

    9. UBUmang Bedi22:25

       ... where it said they're going to share data.

    10. NKNikhil Kamath22:27

        Mm.

    11. UBUmang Bedi22:27

        Right? So what does that mean?

    12. NKNikhil Kamath22:29

        Mm.

    13. UBUmang Bedi22:29

        So I was getting into a meeting, sitting like this, in a hotel with a friend of mine who is from Jodhpur.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath22:37

        Mm-hmm.

    15. UBUmang Bedi22:38

        Uh, and it was during the pandemic, uh, or the pandemic just came six... three months later. Um, I remember, sorry, this was early Jan 2020. Uh, my mom's, uh, birthday, her 70th birthday, was, uh, around the time when the pandemic began, uh, in 2020. And I was just wondering, saying, "Hey, where should I just go which is not too far? They're a little elderly, you know, it's her 70th birthday." And he said... I said, "You're from Jodhpur. I heard there's the most beautiful-

    16. NKNikhil Kamath23:09

        Mm

    17. UBUmang Bedi23:09

        ... Taj Palace Hotel at Jodhpur," right?

    18. NKNikhil Kamath23:11

        Mm.

    19. UBUmang Bedi23:11

        So we're just having this conversation, and, uh, he's like: "Yeah, I'll get it all done for you. But I message the GM of Taj, who I know, on WhatsApp, saying, 'Hey, uh, very keen to come to this hotel. Uh, can you send me the rates?' Right? 'Or can you help me with, uh, this package?'" And I'm entering this meeting, like, the next second, and the first ad that I get on Facebook is Taj Hotels marketing that hotel, Umaid Bhawan Palace at Jodhpur.

    20. NKNikhil Kamath23:40

        Mm.

    21. UBUmang Bedi23:40

        Now, I'll let you infer from it. I'm not going to say anything, I'm just stating it with an example. These are facts. These are facts. [chuckles] Right? Uh, so data is being mined and used. I think the more, uh, drastic part of it came out when you see the way the world is getting bipolar, uh, completely, and how, uh, platforms are built to keep showing you something in a social loop, right? Yeah. So, for instance, if I tell you, uh, hypothetically, demonetization was the best thing that happened to the Indian economy. Uh, now you're in finance, and you're in, uh, everything that you do, but let's say you're not a finance guru-

    22. NKNikhil Kamath24:23

        Mm

    23. UBUmang Bedi24:24

        ... right? And you're not the Zerodha founder, but you are, uh, the average, uh-... you know, middle-class Indian on, uh, in India. And if I show you that piece of content in seven different, uh, ways-

    24. NKNikhil Kamath24:41

        Hmm

    25. UBUmang Bedi24:41

        ... at seven different times, because I know you've engaged on it, you're definitely gonna form an opinion, right?

    26. NKNikhil Kamath24:47

        Hmm.

    27. UBUmang Bedi24:47

        Um, but if I tell you demonetisation is the worst thing that happened to this country, um, because you follow... So essentially, the way the world works is, people are following two sources of media, whether it's left or right-wing. Each has a, has a point of view. And I think these platforms and the algos, because they're built on social graphs, they're built on who you follow, uh, who are your friends-

    28. NKNikhil Kamath25:08

        Yeah

    29. UBUmang Bedi25:08

        ... what are your interests, and what do you engage on more, and more, and more, right?

    30. NKNikhil Kamath25:12

        Do you think... This

12. 25:13 – 28:09

    Negative feedback loop on social media

    1. NKNikhil Kamath25:13

       is a little bit counterintuitive when I say it, but do you think the negative feedback loop is so much bigger than the positive feedback loop? So if I were to be right-wing, I would be showed pro left-wing data to get me to try and react?

    2. UBUmang Bedi25:31

       It's a very deep question. Um, it could go either ways, but if you see what has been proven with Cambridge Analytica, it was basically this manipulation, right? They used combinations of this, uh, around that manipulation, and I am philosophically dead against any of that, right? I feel that, you know, you need to for- show both sides of the story. You need to let people form their own opinions. So in another very interesting anecdote, uh, that I'll share, is my driver... I think, I don't know if I said this the last time. Uh, did I share this example? I don't remember this. But my driver left to Dubai, uh, because he got a job there, and I couldn't afford to pay him what he was getting there.

    3. NKNikhil Kamath26:11

       Hmm.

    4. UBUmang Bedi26:11

       And a young kid, 26 year old.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath26:14

       How much do drivers, just out of curiosity, get paid in Dubai?

    6. UBUmang Bedi26:17

       Um, so he was making over a lac and a half there, and, you know, here it's 20 to 30K, right?

    7. NKNikhil Kamath26:22

       Hmm.

    8. UBUmang Bedi26:22

       Uh, so actually that was, uh, unaffordable. I wished him luck, gave him a letter of recommendation, and he sent me a request on LinkedIn. Okay?

    9. NKNikhil Kamath26:29

       Oh.

    10. UBUmang Bedi26:30

        Very interesting insight. So, uh, I was like, "Hey," you know, I called him up. This is just out of curiosity. I'm like: Why did you send me a request on LinkedIn? You're 26 years old. All kids are on Instagram, right? So he asked me, and this was in Hindi. "Sahab, aap kitna kamate hai?" Right? I said, "Theek thaak kama leta hoon," right? Um, he said, "Chalo, ye maan lo ki aap mahine ke ek lakh rupeye kamate ho, aur main aapko Leela Palace leke gaya ek party mein jahan pe hazar log hai. Aur wahan sabki tankhwa das crore mahine ki hai. Aapki ek lakh hai, unki das crore ki. Aapko kaise lagega?" So I said, "Yaar, mere ko ajeeb lagega. Mere ko lagega ye mere log nahi hai, ye meri mehfil nahi hai." You know, I'm, I'm a little out of place-

    11. NKNikhil Kamath27:15

        Hmm

    12. UBUmang Bedi27:15

        ... I'll be a little awkward. He said, "That's how I feel on Instagram."

    13. NKNikhil Kamath27:19

        Hmm.

    14. UBUmang Bedi27:19

        And that was an interesting insight, because what he said is, that platform is all about fancy food, fancy fashion, fancy holidays.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath27:25

        Yeah.

    16. UBUmang Bedi27:25

        It's not just asp- it's not even aspirational, it's unattainable. So it's intimidating, right?

    17. NKNikhil Kamath27:31

        And it's unreal to a certain extent.

    18. UBUmang Bedi27:32

        And it's unreal to an extent.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath27:33

        Nobody's living that lifestyle they're portraying.

    20. UBUmang Bedi27:35

        Exactly, right.

    21. SPSpeaker27:35

        On a daily basis.

    22. UBUmang Bedi27:36

        On a daily basis. And so we used two or three first principles when we went down this journey.

    23. NKNikhil Kamath27:41

        Hmm.

    24. UBUmang Bedi27:41

        The first principle that we used is, we will never force a person to sign in.

    25. NKNikhil Kamath27:47

        Hmm.

    26. UBUmang Bedi27:47

        He or she can be anonymous for all his life.

    27. NKNikhil Kamath27:50

        Hmm.

    28. UBUmang Bedi27:50

        Two, we will never ask him for personal data. Three, we will never drive a personalization algorithm bases a social graph, uh, which is your friends and family in the network, so you follow. Rather, we will build it on a content graph.

    29. NKNikhil Kamath28:07

        And where is this? Which platform are you talking?

    30. UBUmang Bedi28:08

        Uh,

13. 28:09 – 29:02

    Josh and Dailyhunt

    1. UBUmang Bedi28:09

       this is with, uh, Josh and with Dailyhunt, right? Uh, Josh, of course, is short video. Dailyhunt is more news and infotainment. Uh, and so with both platforms-

    2. NKNikhil Kamath28:17

       Just, just, uh, just for context for everybody watching, how big is Josh and Dailyhunt now?

    3. UBUmang Bedi28:22

       So Dailyhunt today serves about 240 million monthly active users on the app. We're preloaded onto every single Android device known to mankind.

    4. NKNikhil Kamath28:31

       Hmm.

    5. UBUmang Bedi28:31

       Uh, and we find very interesting ways to activate it. Uh, Josh is about 180 million, uh, in terms of, uh, its reach.

    6. NKNikhil Kamath28:40

       How many are yours, Apurva? [laughing]

    7. SPSpeaker28:42

       [chuckles] I'm super small compared... Like-

    8. NKNikhil Kamath28:44

       Hmm

    9. SPSpeaker28:44

       ... at our peak, we were 10 million monthly active users.

    10. NKNikhil Kamath28:47

        Right.

    11. UBUmang Bedi28:48

        Hmm.

    12. NKNikhil Kamath28:48

        But I'm guessing they're different gauges.

    13. SPSpeaker28:49

        Yeah.

    14. UBUmang Bedi28:49

        Yeah, they're different gauges.

    15. SPSpeaker28:50

        Yeah.

    16. UBUmang Bedi28:50

        And we've been, you know, uh, Koo has had a very, very interesting growth around growing organically and growing very rapidly.

    17. NKNikhil Kamath28:57

        Yeah. Yeah.

    18. UBUmang Bedi28:57

        Uh, we admire what they're doing.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath28:59

        I think between-

    20. SPSpeaker29:00

        So we're-

    21. NKNikhil Kamath29:00

        ... you guys, are you the biggest social

14. 29:02 – 30:21

    Biggest Indian social media platforms and ShareChat

    1. NKNikhil Kamath29:02

       media platforms, Indian ones?

    2. SPSpeaker29:05

       Yeah.

    3. UBUmang Bedi29:05

       I would say yes. Yeah, yeah.

    4. NKNikhil Kamath29:07

       Anyone else you can think of?

    5. SPSpeaker29:09

       ShareChat is a social platform, though.

    6. NKNikhil Kamath29:11

       Is it?

    7. UBUmang Bedi29:12

       Yeah.

    8. NKNikhil Kamath29:12

       Is ShareChat truly a social platform, though?

    9. UBUmang Bedi29:16

       It's more for, whatever we've seen in terms of the use case, uh, is sharing-

    10. NKNikhil Kamath29:20

        WhatsApp shares

    11. UBUmang Bedi29:21

        ... sharing, WhatsApp shares.

    12. NKNikhil Kamath29:22

        Hmm.

    13. UBUmang Bedi29:22

        So good morning, good nights, those messaging, um-

    14. SPSpeaker29:26

        That's how it began, then there was a lot, they, they started doing content as well.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath29:29

        Yeah.

    16. SPSpeaker29:29

        So, so in India, you basically divide India into A, B, C, D, right?

    17. UBUmang Bedi29:34

        Yeah.

    18. SPSpeaker29:34

        A is your celebrities, B is English-speaking India.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath29:38

        Is the funnel top-down or bottom-up?

    20. SPSpeaker29:40

        See, if you do top-down, you monetize more. If you do bottom-up, you moni- you don't monetize at all.

    21. UBUmang Bedi29:46

        Yeah.

    22. SPSpeaker29:46

        Right?

    23. NKNikhil Kamath29:46

        At Koo, you're doing top-down, so you go to the influencers first?

    24. UBUmang Bedi29:50

        Yeah.

    25. SPSpeaker29:50

        Yeah.

    26. NKNikhil Kamath29:50

        Same?

    27. UBUmang Bedi29:51

        Same.

    28. NKNikhil Kamath29:51

        Yeah.

    29. UBUmang Bedi29:51

        So that's how-

    30. SPSpeaker29:51

        So you have to... Like, if you have the ministers, sportsmen, Bollywood guys-
15. 30:21 – 32:33

    Indian language distribution on social media

    1. NKNikhil Kamath30:21

       on India for one more second-

    2. SPSpeaker30:22

       Uh.

    3. NKNikhil Kamath30:23

       ... how big is the social media-consuming audience in English, and how big is it in Hindi?

    4. UBUmang Bedi30:28

       So 240 million-... Indians-

    5. SPSpeaker30:31

       Mm-hmm. Yeah

    6. UBUmang Bedi30:32

       -can read, speak, and understand English in some format, about 200, 250.

    7. SPSpeaker30:38

       Mm.

    8. UBUmang Bedi30:38

       About 560 million Indians speak and communicate in Hindi.

    9. SPSpeaker30:43

       Mm.

    10. UBUmang Bedi30:43

        About 250 million Indians is Tamil, Telugu, Kannada, and Malayalam. Right?

    11. SPSpeaker30:48

        Yeah.

    12. UBUmang Bedi30:48

        And about 150 million is-

    13. SPSpeaker30:51

        Bengali, Marathi

    14. UBUmang Bedi30:51

        ... Gujarati, Marathi, uh, that side, and Bangla, Odia is another 100 odd million.

    15. SPSpeaker30:56

        Yeah.

    16. UBUmang Bedi30:56

        Right? So you add this math up, it comes to about 1.15, 1.2 billion, right?

    17. SPSpeaker31:00

        Yeah.

    18. UBUmang Bedi31:01

        But if you really think about Bharat, which is the use case that we, you know, we solve for, we solve for local content. If you search for hashtag food on Instagram and hashtag food on Josh-

    19. SPSpeaker31:08

        Mm

    20. UBUmang Bedi31:08

        ... it's chalk and cheese. Um, ours is very desi, very Indian, very basic, whereas that's very international, right?

    21. SPSpeaker31:14

        Yeah.

    22. UBUmang Bedi31:14

        So I think the principles that we used is, you can... One, it supports all Indian languages. Two, you never sign in. Three, we'll never personalize with your pers- social graph. We'll build a content graph, which basically means we'll try and understand what kind of content you-

    23. SPSpeaker31:28

        Mm

    24. UBUmang Bedi31:28

        ... uh, consume at what time of day. But then, you know, if I just keep- let's say you only consume fitness content.

    25. SPSpeaker31:35

        Mm.

    26. UBUmang Bedi31:35

        Just take that as an example. If I just kept showing you fitness content, your feed's going to get really boring, right?

    27. SPSpeaker31:39

        Right.

    28. UBUmang Bedi31:39

        Like, how many boys and girls will you look at working out?

    29. SPSpeaker31:42

        Right.

    30. UBUmang Bedi31:42

        Uh, but maybe I'll show you an adjacency, right?
16. 32:33 – 37:13

    Earning money while you use social media

    1. UBUmang Bedi32:33

       what I said earlier, the incentive model is very simple.

    2. SPSpeaker32:36

       Mm.

    3. UBUmang Bedi32:36

       More users, get them to spend more time. That's it.

    4. SPSpeaker32:38

       Yeah.

    5. UBUmang Bedi32:38

       It results in ad revenue, right?

    6. SPSpeaker32:40

       So, Umang, on, on that, so don't you think in the future, let's say I use your data or Nikhil's data on your behaviour on my platform, and then I made $100 through the year. If I gave you back $40, right? That is not happening today on any platform. Yeah. But if I did give you back $40, you'll be okay with that sharing of data, because you're monetizing your own data, which you never knew that- Yeah. So if there is transparency around, and I give you a report at the end of the year saying, "I made this much money off you, [chuckles] I'm paying you this much," I think India will go nuts.

    7. UBUmang Bedi33:20

       It's an interesting use case where you pay the user. I've not thought of that. Yeah.

    8. SPSpeaker33:23

       Yeah.

    9. UBUmang Bedi33:24

       You pay the user.

    10. SPSpeaker33:24

        So we, we actually run a loyalty program on Koo.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath33:26

        Can I, can I just ask?

    12. SPSpeaker33:27

        Yeah.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath33:27

        Say, I am a user who spends [clears throat] 10 minutes on Koo a day.

    14. SPSpeaker33:33

        Mm.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath33:33

        I click on 20 different things.

    16. SPSpeaker33:35

        Yeah.

    17. NKNikhil Kamath33:36

        How much would that amount be if you were to monetize me and if-

    18. SPSpeaker33:39

        The more, the more I can monetize, the more I will-

    19. NKNikhil Kamath33:42

        No, what would that amount be, though? The number. Would you earn 10 rupees from me, and you give back four? That... Is that the ballpark you're thinking?

    20. SPSpeaker33:49

        Yeah. So, I think finally, we want to get to a place where I will share at least 20, 30% of what I earn with you.

    21. UBUmang Bedi33:56

        Mm. Yeah.

    22. NKNikhil Kamath33:57

        But I'm trying to figure out if the scale is exciting or enticing enough for somebody to, you know, kind of go in for that. Is it, like, 10 paisa a day that you would earn, or is it 100 rupees a day?

    23. UBUmang Bedi34:09

        So I think there is-

    24. SPSpeaker34:10

        Yeah.

    25. UBUmang Bedi34:10

        I would say that there is enough money in the game.

    26. NKNikhil Kamath34:12

        Yeah.

    27. UBUmang Bedi34:13

        Look at it this way, none of the global platforms pay creators.

    28. NKNikhil Kamath34:17

        Except YouTube.

    29. UBUmang Bedi34:18

        Except YouTube.

    30. NKNikhil Kamath34:19

        [clears throat]
17. 37:13 – 40:03

    What happened after Orkut?

    1. SPSpeaker37:13

       yeah.

    2. NKNikhil Kamath37:13

       Can you also finish that journey you were talking about? We're all slightly different age groups.

    3. SPSpeaker37:18

       Mm.

    4. NKNikhil Kamath37:18

       So it'll be interesting to know, like, you know, just a quick minute on you went from your email.

    5. SPSpeaker37:23

       Yeah.

    6. NKNikhil Kamath37:23

       You went to email even though you had a phone-

    7. SPSpeaker37:26

       Yeah

    8. NKNikhil Kamath37:26

       ... because somebody asked you to.

    9. SPSpeaker37:27

       Yeah.

    10. NKNikhil Kamath37:28

        Then you went to Orkut or whatever. What happened next? What happened between that-

    11. SPSpeaker37:31

        So

    12. NKNikhil Kamath37:31

        ... and starting Koo?

    13. SPSpeaker37:33

        Oh, yeah. [chuckles] So Orkut, uh, was actually the first cool platform, right-

    14. NKNikhil Kamath37:39

        Mm

    15. SPSpeaker37:39

        ... uh, that everyone entered. It was a more open network-

    16. NKNikhil Kamath37:44

        [clears throat]

    17. SPSpeaker37:44

        ... where anybody could go on somebody's wall and say anything, right?

    18. NKNikhil Kamath37:47

        Mm.

    19. SPSpeaker37:47

        And the experience... So at least, you know, I know-

    20. NKNikhil Kamath37:49

        It was owned by Google, no?

    21. SPSpeaker37:51

        No, they bought it later.

    22. NKNikhil Kamath37:53

        Uh, bought it later.

    23. SPSpeaker37:53

        Google bought it. They bought it later. But-

    24. NKNikhil Kamath37:55

        Interesting.

    25. UBUmang Bedi37:55

        Google has never built a successful social network.

    26. NKNikhil Kamath37:57

        Yeah, why not?

    27. UBUmang Bedi37:58

        They tried. Google Wave, Google+

    28. SPSpeaker38:00

        Yeah, they tried.

    29. UBUmang Bedi38:01

        They tried everything.

    30. NKNikhil Kamath38:02

        Google+
18. 40:03 – 42:21

    What’s going on with Tiktok?

    1. UBUmang Bedi40:03

       graphs are taking over the world, and the biggest example of this is TikTok.

    2. SPSpeaker40:06

       Yeah.

    3. UBUmang Bedi40:07

       TikTok is eating everyone's lunch in the US, right?

    4. SPSpeaker40:10

       Yeah.

    5. UBUmang Bedi40:10

       Because-

    6. NKNikhil Kamath40:10

       Why, why is that? I think we spoke about this the other day, but we were not recording it, right?

    7. UBUmang Bedi40:15

       Yeah.

    8. NKNikhil Kamath40:15

       You were saying the number of creators to the number of people.

    9. UBUmang Bedi40:18

       So at least y- if I could be... You know, if I could ask you a question, what's your be- when was the last time you posted on Facebook?

    10. NKNikhil Kamath40:26

        I post f- quite often.

    11. UBUmang Bedi40:27

        You do?

    12. NKNikhil Kamath40:28

        Yeah. Yeah, see, but what I do is I... I think once something goes on a certain platform, the person just replicates it on all platforms.

    13. UBUmang Bedi40:35

        No, no, see, public figures-

    14. NKNikhil Kamath40:37

        Yeah

    15. UBUmang Bedi40:37

        ... behave differently.

    16. NKNikhil Kamath40:37

        Yeah.

    17. UBUmang Bedi40:37

        Yeah. Leave what you're doing for work.

    18. NKNikhil Kamath40:39

        Uh-huh.

    19. UBUmang Bedi40:39

        Right? Like, you're posting, uh, an article or an award or a feature that you've launched, you'll put it everywhere, right? That... I would do that with Dailyhunt, and I did it this morning again for our Espresso feed on Instagram. Uh, but when was the last time you posted something truly social or personal on any of these platforms?

    20. NKNikhil Kamath40:58

        I do, actually.

    21. UBUmang Bedi40:59

        You do.

    22. NKNikhil Kamath40:59

        Once in a while, yeah.

    23. UBUmang Bedi41:00

        Once in a while.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath41:00

        But I think I'm an exception here, so not everyone.

    25. SPSpeaker41:02

        No, he has followers. See, the average Facebook user doesn't have followers.

    26. UBUmang Bedi41:06

        They have friends.

    27. SPSpeaker41:07

        Follower is a concept that has come later on Facebook.

    28. UBUmang Bedi41:10

        Yeah.

    29. SPSpeaker41:11

        Average person has friends.

    30. UBUmang Bedi41:12

        Correct.
19. 42:21 – 47:20

    Is Facebook still relevant?

    1. UBUmang Bedi42:21

       Today, when I, when I look at it, globally, three things are happening. One, people don't find Facebook relevant anymore in terms of younger audiences.

    2. SPSpeaker42:29

       Yeah.

    3. UBUmang Bedi42:29

       So that's a known fact. It's a absolutely known fact. It's there in India as well. Two, uh, they find the ephemeral nature-... of messaging and communication, a lot more powerful. It beats me why, but, you know, that's why, uh-

    4. TBTanmay Bhat42:45

       That's based on use case.

    5. UBUmang Bedi42:45

       It's, it's a use case, right? [laughing] I understand. I won't go there. Uh, I won't go there, but it's-

    6. TBTanmay Bhat42:50

       Yeah

    7. UBUmang Bedi42:50

       ... it's suddenly become popular. But three, I think, uh, why TikTok got so popular is the algorithm.

    8. TBTanmay Bhat42:59

       Mm.

    9. UBUmang Bedi43:00

       Um, when you're looking into TikTok, TikTok's looking straight back into you.

    10. TBTanmay Bhat43:06

        Meaning?

    11. UBUmang Bedi43:07

        Meaning, um, so, you know, it's just showing me random content, right? Uh, but I don't know if you used it.

    12. TBTanmay Bhat43:13

        Mm-hmm.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath43:13

        I have never.

    14. UBUmang Bedi43:14

        Okay, so if you do, you'll find that you could wail away hours on it, because the feed is-

    15. TBTanmay Bhat43:20

        It's like flipping channels on the-

    16. UBUmang Bedi43:21

        Yeah

    17. TBTanmay Bhat43:21

        ... on the TV.

    18. UBUmang Bedi43:21

        It's so-

    19. TBTanmay Bhat43:22

        Mm

    20. UBUmang Bedi43:22

        ... it's so personalized.

    21. TBTanmay Bhat43:24

        Mm.

    22. UBUmang Bedi43:24

        My feed is very different from your feed, is very different from your feed.

    23. TBTanmay Bhat43:27

        Right.

    24. UBUmang Bedi43:28

        And my feed is dynamic. It's not in a boring old loop.

    25. NKNikhil Kamath43:31

        Why, why-

    26. UBUmang Bedi43:32

        It shows me really interesting-

    27. NKNikhil Kamath43:32

        ... why is that so addictive, that whole switching from one thing to another-

    28. TBTanmay Bhat43:35

        Mm

    29. NKNikhil Kamath43:35

        ... constantly for so long? 'Cause I just remembered when you said this, I do it on Swiggy.

    30. UBUmang Bedi43:40

        Yeah.
20. 47:20 – 49:11

    How did Tanmay get popular on social media?

    1. UBUmang Bedi47:20

       we?

    2. NKNikhil Kamath47:20

       So, Tanmay, you're probably the most popular social media person in the count- country.

    3. TBTanmay Bhat47:28

       Not in the country, but sure, on this table, yeah. [laughing]

    4. UBUmang Bedi47:31

       [laughing]

    5. NKNikhil Kamath47:32

       I like how he knows it, and he's still, you know-

    6. TBTanmay Bhat47:34

       Um, yeah

    7. NKNikhil Kamath47:34

       ... like, trying to figure out if he should contest it or not.

    8. TBTanmay Bhat47:36

       I don't want to be the most popular person on social media. [laughing]

    9. UBUmang Bedi47:39

       [laughing]

    10. TBTanmay Bhat47:40

        It's too much.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath47:40

        Okay, tell us about how you got into this, 'cause honestly, we've been friends for so long, I've never asked you where you grew up, what was your first experience with social media?

    12. TBTanmay Bhat47:51

        Mm, I think, uh, w- I mean, like everybody else, I did the Orkut journey. I, I had my MySpace phase, I had my Facebook phase, and then I got onto Twitter.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath48:06

        Mm.

    14. TBTanmay Bhat48:06

        And my first audience that I built was primarily on Twitter. Because at that point, like in 2009, I was on Twitter in 2009, I used to... I had just gotten into comedy then, so I used to wake up every day, look at my-

    15. NKNikhil Kamath48:20

        So was it comic content which got you your first audience?

    16. TBTanmay Bhat48:22

        Just jokes-

    17. NKNikhil Kamath48:23

        Mm

    18. TBTanmay Bhat48:24

        ... right?

    19. NKNikhil Kamath48:24

        Mm.

    20. TBTanmay Bhat48:24

        I would spend six hours a day writing one-liners-

    21. NKNikhil Kamath48:28

        Mm

    22. TBTanmay Bhat48:28

        ... on Twitter.

    23. NKNikhil Kamath48:28

        Give me an example.

    24. TBTanmay Bhat48:30

        Example of?

    25. NKNikhil Kamath48:31

        What you used to write back then.

    26. TBTanmay Bhat48:32

        Oh, in 2009, I remember there was a Commonwealth Games phase that was, like, really, really popular at that time. All kinds of it was happening in India, all kinds of stuff was happening.... so I would be, like, there were a bunch of, like, the early guys. It was me, Rohan, Ashish was on it. We all used to write in general. I was writing for magazines, I was writing jokes, I was writing funny articles for Mumbai Mirror, et cetera, et cetera. And here came a platform where I could flex my writing, so I would just tweet from morning to evening on anything newsworthy. And if, like, a cricket game was on, or if there's a big news event, that means maximum engagement on whatever you wrote. So I got my first 10,000

21. 49:11 – 56:43

    Tanmay's Guide to becoming popular on social media

    1. TBTanmay Bhat49:11

       followers on Twitter.

    2. NKNikhil Kamath49:11

       Is that a good tip for anybody trying to get bigger?

    3. TBTanmay Bhat49:13

       [clears throat]

    4. NKNikhil Kamath49:13

       Like, talk about-

    5. TBTanmay Bhat49:15

       Oh, there is a... I have a, I have, I have a full presentation on this, but I'll give you a basic-

    6. NKNikhil Kamath49:20

       Uh

    7. TBTanmay Bhat49:20

       ... idea on what can get-

    8. NKNikhil Kamath49:21

       How does somebody starting off today become as popular as-

    9. TBTanmay Bhat49:24

       Yeah

    10. NKNikhil Kamath49:24

        or a fraction of as popular as you?

    11. TBTanmay Bhat49:25

        So it's just a general engagement tip, right?

    12. NKNikhil Kamath49:27

        Mm.

    13. TBTanmay Bhat49:29

        One, anything topical is always gonna get engagement on any platform.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath49:33

        Describe topical.

    15. TBTanmay Bhat49:35

        Um, today the test match is going on-

    16. ARAprameya Radhakrishna49:37

        Yeah

    17. TBTanmay Bhat49:37

        ... between India and Australia. So a tweet about the test match will get, will get massive engagement. A Reel about the test match will get decent engagement.

    18. ARAprameya Radhakrishna49:43

        Correct.

    19. TBTanmay Bhat49:44

        I uploaded a YouTube video today, which is called Indian- The Indian Team is Savage. [dog barks] Uh, [clears throat] if it was two weeks ago, then the Siddharth Malhotra, Kiara Advani wedding would've gotten you engagement. Whatever is the topic of the day-

    20. NKNikhil Kamath49:57

        Okay

    21. TBTanmay Bhat49:58

        ... uh, that'll get you huge engagement. In fact, at the AIB, I remember, uh, P. V. Sindhu was either gonna win gold medal or silver medal.

    22. NKNikhil Kamath50:04

        Mm.

    23. TBTanmay Bhat50:05

        We had memes ready for both.

    24. ARAprameya Radhakrishna50:06

        Ah.

    25. TBTanmay Bhat50:06

        Right? 'Cause the, the, the trick was to put it out as soon as the event happens.

    26. ARAprameya Radhakrishna50:11

        Yeah.

    27. NKNikhil Kamath50:11

        Is that the trick, the, the latency-

    28. TBTanmay Bhat50:14

        [clears throat]

    29. NKNikhil Kamath50:14

        ... between when the event happens and when you post?

    30. TBTanmay Bhat50:16

        On Twitter. On Twitter.
22. 56:43 – 57:48

    Youtube’s Dominance in social media

    1. NKNikhil Kamath56:43

       Because there is a lot more educational stuff out there. I'll give you an example. Like, I knew we were doing this today, and I wanted to find out what's happening, which is new and innovative in the world of social media. I could not get that on Instagram, Twitter, or Facebook as easily-

    2. TBTanmay Bhat57:02

       Yeah, that's right

    3. NKNikhil Kamath57:03

       ... as I could watch a Lex Fridman podcast on-

    4. TBTanmay Bhat57:05

       Yeah

    5. NKNikhil Kamath57:05

       ... social media and get it on YouTube.

    6. TBTanmay Bhat57:07

       YouTube has replaced television for me, uh, many years ago, actually. To me, the, that platform is... But like, but like YouTube gets a lot of flak, but what, what they have done over the last decade is pretty phenomenal. Um, being a YouTuber is a legitimate job-

    7. UBUmang Bedi57:24

       Yeah

    8. TBTanmay Bhat57:24

       ... and an occupation now, which is [beep] to me. Like, being a Twitter or, you know, is, is, is not a thing.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath57:30

       Correct.

    10. TBTanmay Bhat57:30

        Uh, I think that's the first thing that they did really well, which is make the, uh, Instagram-

    11. UBUmang Bedi57:35

        Creators make money. Yeah.

    12. TBTanmay Bhat57:36

        Creators make money. Like, creators make a [beep] ton of money on YouTube. Um-

    13. UBUmang Bedi57:42

        MrBeast.

    14. TBTanmay Bhat57:43

        MrBeast makes a [beep] ton of money. I mean, if you, if... Like, the, um-

    15. NKNikhil Kamath57:47

        Can you tell us how much?

23. 57:48 – 1:04:08

    How much can you earn on Youtube in India?

    1. NKNikhil Kamath57:48

       Because we don't know. I mean, I'm sure you guys know. I don't know.

    2. UBUmang Bedi57:51

       20, 30, 40, 50, 100 million as well, 50 million plus.

    3. TBTanmay Bhat57:55

       This is in dollars.

    4. UBUmang Bedi57:56

       In dollars.

    5. TBTanmay Bhat57:56

       In India, the CPMs are-

    6. UBUmang Bedi57:57

       Yeah, yeah.

    7. TBTanmay Bhat57:58

       Yeah, yeah. In India, the CPMs are-

    8. UBUmang Bedi57:59

       Yeah

    9. TBTanmay Bhat57:59

       ... way lower.

    10. UBUmang Bedi58:00

        Yeah.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath58:00

        Uh, you have to be a creator in the US.

    12. UBUmang Bedi58:02

        Yeah.

    13. TBTanmay Bhat58:03

        In the US.

    14. UBUmang Bedi58:03

        Because you're paid the same as-

    15. TBTanmay Bhat58:03

        No, but even the creators in India are making a-

    16. UBUmang Bedi58:06

        What's CPM?

    17. TBTanmay Bhat58:07

        CPM mean cost per mil-

    18. UBUmang Bedi58:08

        Cost per thousand

    19. TBTanmay Bhat58:09

        ... cost per thousand.

    20. UBUmang Bedi58:09

        Impressions.

    21. TBTanmay Bhat58:10

        So a thousand... If a thousand monetized views, what do you make? Like, India is sub $2.

    22. UBUmang Bedi58:18

        Yeah.

    23. TBTanmay Bhat58:18

        Um, but in America, and I think in the Scandinavian countries, it's like 10, 12, uh, in some cases, $20-

    24. UBUmang Bedi58:25

        Yeah

    25. TBTanmay Bhat58:26

        ... depending on the niche you're in.

    26. NKNikhil Kamath58:27

        One more level of personal question.

    27. TBTanmay Bhat58:30

        Hmm.

    28. NKNikhil Kamath58:31

        If you put out a post or a video on Instagram-

    29. TBTanmay Bhat58:34

        Hmm

    30. NKNikhil Kamath58:35

        ... versus YouTube-
24. 1:04:08 – 1:06:00

    Is Youtube leading social media?

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:08

       you think... Can we reach a consensus that YouTube is somehow, in a weird manner, leading the pack of social media?

    2. UBUmang Bedi1:04:15

       I wouldn't even say it's social media.

    3. SPSpeaker1:04:17

       No, it's not social media. It's a, it, it's a creator tool.

    4. UBUmang Bedi1:04:20

       It's a TV channel, right?

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:21

       Right.

    6. SPSpeaker1:04:22

       It's a tool-

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:23

       Which can pivot into social media?

    8. SPSpeaker1:04:25

       No, it can't pivot. It's, it is what it is.

    9. UBUmang Bedi1:04:27

       Yeah. So today-

    10. SPSpeaker1:04:28

        Social media can do what YouTube does, but YouTube can't do connects-

    11. UBUmang Bedi1:04:34

        Yeah

    12. SPSpeaker1:04:34

        ... as well as social media.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:35

        What if YouTube allows you to have a profile, allows people to follow?

    14. SPSpeaker1:04:40

        It does. It already does.

    15. UBUmang Bedi1:04:41

        It already does.

    16. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:41

        Allow people- allows people to message each other, and then-

    17. SPSpeaker1:04:45

        Already does

    18. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:45

        ... your friend's content is recommended to you. It kind of-

    19. SPSpeaker1:04:48

        You can message each other on YouTube.

    20. UBUmang Bedi1:04:50

        Yeah.

    21. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:50

        Wow!

    22. UBUmang Bedi1:04:51

        You can.

    23. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:51

        But if all of that happens, it becomes like a social media?

    24. SPSpeaker1:04:54

        No.

    25. UBUmang Bedi1:04:54

        It's social me- it's social media minus, minus, is how I would put it-

    26. SPSpeaker1:04:58

        Yeah

    27. UBUmang Bedi1:04:58

        ... where you can't DM on, on YouTube.

    28. SPSpeaker1:04:59

        Yeah.

    29. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:59

        I'll give you another example. If I am watching Netflix, and I can chat with the other people who are watching that particular movie on Netflix.

    30. SPSpeaker1:05:09

        Yeah, then it becomes more social. Yeah.
25. 1:06:00 – 1:12:15

    Which country spends the most time on social media?

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:06:00

       this, is there a demography or is there a geography which spends more time on social media, if you were to compare the Chinese to the Americans, to the Indians? And is there a societal construct which incentivizes a certain people to spend more time on social media?

    2. UBUmang Bedi1:06:20

       Hmm, interesting.

    3. SPSpeaker1:06:22

       Yeah. So at least we've seen Brazil is more social media savvy than India, because, you know, these are the two countries I have data on-

    4. NKNikhil Kamath1:06:29

       By savvy, do you mean they spend more time a day on social media?

    5. SPSpeaker1:06:30

       They do more comments, they create more, they spend more time. So all of this-

    6. NKNikhil Kamath1:06:36

       If you were to link it to poverty or economic parameters-

    7. SPSpeaker1:06:39

       Yeah, Brazil is similar.

    8. UBUmang Bedi1:06:41

       Yeah.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath1:06:41

       Okay, even if you were to split-

    10. UBUmang Bedi1:06:43

        Mm

    11. NKNikhil Kamath1:06:43

        ... your audience, right?

    12. UBUmang Bedi1:06:44

        Mm.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:06:44

        Your customers or your people who use the platform.... Is there a divide you can come up with, saying middle class spends- middle class 20 to 25-year-olds-

    14. UBUmang Bedi1:06:57

        Mm

    15. NKNikhil Kamath1:06:57

        ... spend X time, whereas another class of society spends Y time?

    16. UBUmang Bedi1:07:02

        So I-

    17. TBTanmay Bhat1:07:03

        Yeah

    18. UBUmang Bedi1:07:03

        ... if you look at it on the internet level in India, today, rural time spent, interestingly-

    19. TBTanmay Bhat1:07:10

        Is more. Yeah

    20. UBUmang Bedi1:07:10

        ... is growing over urban time spent. And what that tells-

    21. TBTanmay Bhat1:07:13

        More time.

    22. UBUmang Bedi1:07:14

        Yeah. More, one, one, it has more time. Two, it tells me that the num- we're a single TV household, and we're only 180 million TVs in this country, or 200 million TVs-

    23. TBTanmay Bhat1:07:22

        Mm

    24. UBUmang Bedi1:07:22

        ... in this country, right? There are 1.4 billion people. There are a billion devices, 800 million smartphones. So the TV now becomes... Sorry, the phone now is your primary channel for consumption on the fly, right? And interestingly, creation as well, and that's what TikTok democratized by... with the most powerful creator tools on the camera.

    25. TBTanmay Bhat1:07:41

        Yeah.

    26. UBUmang Bedi1:07:41

        Right?

    27. TBTanmay Bhat1:07:41

        TikTok was like the be- [clears throat] any platform that enables you to become a rock star in the easiest way possible-

    28. UBUmang Bedi1:07:48

        Yeah

    29. TBTanmay Bhat1:07:48

        ... will win, right?

    30. UBUmang Bedi1:07:49

        Will win. Yeah.
26. 1:12:15 – 1:17:00

    How is social media regulated by the government?

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:12:15

       and I asked them a bunch of questions, right? They showed me their social media, and I was like: "Is there a filtering system that you guys need to follow-

    2. UBUmang Bedi1:12:24

       Mm

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:12:24

       ... like from the government? Is there something you're allowed to say, something you're not allowed to say?" Uh, and surprisingly, like 98% of the people I spoke to, uh, they were all like, "There's nothing."

    4. UBUmang Bedi1:12:38

       Mm.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:12:38

       I think-

    6. UBUmang Bedi1:12:39

       Wow!

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:12:39

       ... I think the perception of another place, when you don't truly experience it yourself, is so jaded by exaggerations made by people who have their own agendas at play.

    8. UBUmang Bedi1:12:51

       I agree.

    9. TBTanmay Bhat1:12:51

       Broadly, the West has influenced-

    10. UBUmang Bedi1:12:53

        Yep

    11. TBTanmay Bhat1:12:54

        ... the West has influenced, uh, so much of-

    12. TBTanmay Bhat1:12:58

        ... our own culture.

    13. UBUmang Bedi1:13:00

        Yeah.

    14. TBTanmay Bhat1:13:01

        Um-

    15. UBUmang Bedi1:13:01

        English.

    16. TBTanmay Bhat1:13:03

        Eh, yeah, English. The Western media has influenced, and, like... How, how do I put this? Okay. Like, the West reached a certain stage of economic prosperity-

    17. UBUmang Bedi1:13:15

        Mm

    18. TBTanmay Bhat1:13:15

        ... before every- everywhere else. So they reached that top part of the pyramid very quickly, the self-actualization part, you start starting to think. And there, w- when you re- when you are economically prosperous, your thinking kind of changes. You start thinking about, um, for example-

    19. UBUmang Bedi1:13:33

        Mm

    20. TBTanmay Bhat1:13:33

        ... like, work-life balance, right?

    21. UBUmang Bedi1:13:37

        Mm-hmm.

    22. TBTanmay Bhat1:13:38

        Uh, life at Google. [chuckles]

    23. UBUmang Bedi1:13:39

        Mm.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath1:13:39

        [chuckles]

    25. TBTanmay Bhat1:13:40

        Right? Which is like, oh, you work... You know, have, have you guys seen those popular TikToks right now of-

    26. UBUmang Bedi1:13:44

        Yeah

    27. TBTanmay Bhat1:13:44

        ... "This is hi, I'm a product manager at Meta, and this is what I do-

    28. UBUmang Bedi1:13:48

        [chuckles]

    29. TBTanmay Bhat1:13:48

        ... uh, on a daily basis, which is, oh, I walk into office at 8:00 a.m., do some... grab my shake of blueberry milkshake, and then I- [laughing]

    30. NKNikhil Kamath1:13:56

        [laughing]
27. 1:17:00 – 1:18:41

    Meaning behind Nikhil’s tattoo

    1. TBTanmay Bhat1:17:00

       Yeah.

    2. UBUmang Bedi1:17:00

       So I noticed the "Be here now."

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:17:02

       Yeah.

    4. UBUmang Bedi1:17:02

       Very interesting.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:17:03

       Uh.

    6. UBUmang Bedi1:17:04

       Tell me the story behind it.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:17:06

       Yeah, this is not that personal. This is not like some girlfriend-

    8. UBUmang Bedi1:17:08

       Oh, okay. [laughing]

    9. TBTanmay Bhat1:17:11

       [laughing]

    10. NKNikhil Kamath1:17:11

        [laughing] This is not like that one party I was at and got so drunk that I went and got a tattoo.

    11. UBUmang Bedi1:17:16

        No, what does it signify?

    12. NKNikhil Kamath1:17:16

        There, there was this author, I, I used to read his books. Not now, but like... When was this? Maybe like eight years ago, nine, eight, nine, eight, nine years ago. His name was AK Ramdas. I spent a disproportionately large amount of time and a large part of my life living like I will live forever. So I would procrastinate, I would constantly worry about what will happen 10, 20, 30, 40 years from now. I think I was a fairly insecure kid. In many ways, I still am, but, uh, I, I would not go far enough to say I had some kind of a realization. But I think, uh, if you were to ask me today, I have come to terms with the fact that we are Indians. We will, on average, live... If we all were to die, on average, we would have lived for 70 years. So if I am 36, I have 34 years left. So this is a reminder to that in a way, that you're not here forever, and stop behaving-

    13. UBUmang Bedi1:18:26

        Like that

    14. NKNikhil Kamath1:18:26

        ... in the manner that you will be here forever. I think, uh, in a very weird way, life becomes more fun and happier, and you stop caring about a lot of stuff that you shouldn't have cared about to begin with.

    15. UBUmang Bedi1:18:40

        [exhales]

28. 1:18:41 – 1:21:28

    Are we living in the moment?

    1. UBUmang Bedi1:18:41

       In fact, when I, I was looking at it and reflecting on it, and the one thought that came into my mind was: How many of us truly live in the moment-

    2. NKNikhil Kamath1:18:52

       Yeah

    3. UBUmang Bedi1:18:52

       ... or are in the moment? Um, you know, we, we lead different lives on social media because there was are those masks, et cetera, that are put up for the dopamine hit.... but, and how many of us are truly aware that we're in this moment, in this room? I don't know if this moment will come again.

    4. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:19:10

       Mm.

    5. UBUmang Bedi1:19:11

       And are we relishing it, or are we thinking about-

    6. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:19:12

       Oh, I thought I blocked next Thursday already. [laughing]

    7. UBUmang Bedi1:19:14

       [laughing] But are we- you know, are we thinking about-

    8. NKNikhil Kamath1:19:17

       Yeah

    9. UBUmang Bedi1:19:17

       ... what's going to happen tomorrow and the next, you know, whatever, right?

    10. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:19:19

        Mm.

    11. UBUmang Bedi1:19:20

        And so I read it that way, to say-

    12. NKNikhil Kamath1:19:21

        Yeah

    13. UBUmang Bedi1:19:22

        ... just be in the moment and relish it.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath1:19:24

        Yeah. Yeah, I feel like most of life, right, is one deception or another. And, uh, maybe if you think about anything for long enough, it's meaningless. But we all have to deceive ourself into thinking whatever we're doing has meaning. But even things like, you know, hard work creates success, I feel like that is conditioning to console your own ego when things don't work out, so you can then tell yourself, "Even though I worked hard-

    15. UBUmang Bedi1:19:52

        Mm

    16. NKNikhil Kamath1:19:52

        ... it did not work out." If you were to be logical about any of these things people say, hard work does not work, right?

    17. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:20:00

        Not necessarily, yeah.

    18. UBUmang Bedi1:20:00

        Yeah.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath1:20:01

        Like, like your watchman in your house probably works three times as hard as you. I think we are a factor of so many moving parts that we cannot control.

    20. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:20:11

        Of course.

    21. UBUmang Bedi1:20:12

        Yeah.

    22. NKNikhil Kamath1:20:13

        Yeah.

    23. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:20:14

        We are, yeah.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath1:20:15

        But finish your story. You were talking about-

    25. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:20:17

        I said I finished it.

    26. NKNikhil Kamath1:20:18

        No, but-

    27. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:20:18

        I said now

    28. NKNikhil Kamath1:20:19

        ... how did you go from starting to tweet, spending a few hours a day?

    29. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:20:23

        Hmm.

    30. UBUmang Bedi1:20:23

        So YouTube had started a program, so we started making YouTube videos. Um, our goal was, how can we make stuff that's freely watchable on the internet, that's... that you couldn't do on television? Um, which is what our brand of comedy also was. Then one thing led to another, we started making videos, and this is pre-Jio times, where getting a million views was, like, a big deal.
29. 1:21:28 – 1:34:56

    Am I the most shallow man in the world?

    1. UBUmang Bedi1:21:28

       house-

    2. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:21:28

       Mm

    3. UBUmang Bedi1:21:28

       ... talking about social media.

    4. NKNikhil Kamath1:21:30

       And, Umang, you, too, I think, uh... [chuckles] see, we've all been friends, right? And we have hang- hung out in different capacities at different times, but I don't think I've ever asked each one of you, like, the more you think about life, uh, you are a factor of what I don't know, what happened to you when you were a kid-

    5. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:21:51

       Correct.

    6. UBUmang Bedi1:21:52

       Yeah

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:21:52

       ... what were the conditions-

    8. UBUmang Bedi1:21:53

       [clears throat]

    9. NKNikhil Kamath1:21:54

       ... you grew up in, how your parents were, what school you went to, who your friends were. I don't think we can get into all of that today, but maybe talking a little bit about where we come from. Not the material, like, you know, I got 98% in-

    10. UBUmang Bedi1:22:09

        Yeah. [chuckles]

    11. NKNikhil Kamath1:22:10

        ... that kind of stuff, but just a broad picture which-

    12. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:22:13

        I don't think any of us got 98% in anything. [chuckles]

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:22:15

        Umang, I have a doubt about that. [laughing]

    14. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:22:17

        [laughing]

    15. UBUmang Bedi1:22:17

        [laughing]

    16. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:22:17

        Umang probably got 98%.

    17. UBUmang Bedi1:22:19

        Okay, I'm embarrassed, but yeah. [laughing]

    18. NKNikhil Kamath1:22:21

        [laughing]

    19. UBUmang Bedi1:22:22

        Uh, so childhood was very regular.

    20. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:22:26

        No, he said we're not going to discuss that today. [chuckles]

    21. UBUmang Bedi1:22:28

        Okay, so-

    22. NKNikhil Kamath1:22:28

        Yeah, I need to speak to my therapist first when I come here. [chuckles]

    23. UBUmang Bedi1:22:31

        Regular childhood, uh, grew up in Bombay.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath1:22:34

        Yeah.

    25. UBUmang Bedi1:22:34

        Um, Dad worked with L&T as his first job and his last job. Uh, so started as an engineer and then retired from the board. Uh, so it was a great upbringing. Uh, I loved growing, growing up in Bombay, in Pali Hill, and then suddenly-

    26. NKNikhil Kamath1:22:48

        Can I- can I just digress for a second?

    27. UBUmang Bedi1:22:49

        Yeah.

    28. NKNikhil Kamath1:22:49

        There is a really weird school of thought. So my new big thing is psychology, okay?

    29. UBUmang Bedi1:22:54

        Yeah.

    30. NKNikhil Kamath1:22:54

        I've stopped reading all books on finance, economy-
30. 1:34:56 – 1:44:32

    What is Discord?

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:34:56

       What is Discord?

    2. TBTanmay Bhat1:34:59

       So Discord, I don't even know how to describe it. So Discord became really popular... Discord's an app. It became really popular with gamers first. So if me and you are playing a game, um, not all games, me and you can't communicate from within the game necessarily. So it initially gained popularity because Discord has something called voice channels, where me and you can jump into a voice channel. So for example, here there are- I'm on this server of a friend of mine who's a gamer, and he has different, different voice channels. One of which is, uh, one of which is called, uh, you know, DJ. Late, Late Night DJ, where you log in, [upbeat music] and there's just music going on there in the background. Someone's playing-

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:35:38

       He's playing

    4. TBTanmay Bhat1:35:39

       ... music. Yeah, someone's playing in the background.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:35:41

       Mm.

    6. TBTanmay Bhat1:35:41

       And multiple people can join, uh, and people can just chill there. And/or there are voice channels which are just blank also. This one is called Duo-

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:35:50

       Mm

    8. TBTanmay Bhat1:35:50

       ... because only two people can be in this voice channel. So I can jump in, someone else can jump in, and the two of us can have a conversation. [upbeat music] So if you create a Discord server, you can assign everyone, uh, privileges and roles, based on which they can join different voice channels, they can join different text channels. So it became super easy to manage a community. So it became popular with gamers, 'cause when two people are playing a game-

    9. SPSpeaker1:36:10

       Yeah

    10. TBTanmay Bhat1:36:10

        ... they hop on a voice channel and talk to each other while they play a game to make communication easy.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath1:36:14

        But why couldn't they do it on another-

    12. TBTanmay Bhat1:36:16

        What else existed at that point? You'd have to Skype call each other.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:36:19

        Phone-

    14. TBTanmay Bhat1:36:19

        This is before Zoom. Huh? Phone call each other, like, from the computer, like-

    15. SPSpeaker1:36:23

        Yeah

    16. TBTanmay Bhat1:36:23

        ... it didn't exist. [beep]

    17. SPSpeaker1:36:24

        Mm.

    18. TBTanmay Bhat1:36:25

        Discord was the quickest way for two people to just jump onto a channel. So you've used Clubhouse, right?

    19. NKNikhil Kamath1:36:29

        Yeah.

    20. TBTanmay Bhat1:36:30

        So you know how, how on Clubhouse you could just hop onto-

    21. NKNikhil Kamath1:36:33

        One

    22. TBTanmay Bhat1:36:33

        ... one room, and you instantly start talking to each other?

    23. NKNikhil Kamath1:36:35

        Right.

    24. TBTanmay Bhat1:36:35

        So Discord was that before- much before Clubhouse.

    25. NKNikhil Kamath1:36:38

        But for two people.

    26. TBTanmay Bhat1:36:39

        But for many- as many people. So you can have 100 people together. Um, and they solved... They, they became really popular because of this, and they kept adding features. So having a, your own Discord server-

    27. NKNikhil Kamath1:36:50

        Mm-hmm

    28. TBTanmay Bhat1:36:50

        ... became a thing amongst gamers. And eventually, other people-

    29. NKNikhil Kamath1:36:53

        Mm

    30. TBTanmay Bhat1:36:53

        ... other creators also started having a Discord server. So I had a Discord server for the longest time. Uh-
31. 1:44:32 – 1:47:14

    Twitch and Youtube live streaming

    1. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:44:32

       Twitch is different. Twitch is just a live streaming platform. But now YouTube has its own live streaming. YouTube started live streaming.

    2. SPSpeaker1:44:39

       Mm.

    3. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:44:39

       And YouTube is like a slow-moving ship, but when they, when they ship features, they're really solid. Twitch has more features than YouTube. It's still, in the Western world, it's still the go-to platform. Everybody's tried a live streaming platform. Microsoft tried it with Mixer. Um, so they-

    4. SPSpeaker1:44:55

       Mm

    5. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:44:55

       ... they poached a bunch of big streamers from Twitch to go on to Mixer. It didn't work out. Now, there's a new streaming platform called Kick that everybody's going to. Um, but YouTube streaming [clears throat] to me, is, is, is- has the most potential, 'cause YouTube, you can do-

    6. SPSpeaker1:45:12

       Mm

    7. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:45:12

       ... you can do VOD, uh, and you can do live streaming at the same time. But to me, live streaming is a way to build community-

    8. SPSpeaker1:45:20

       Mm

    9. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:45:20

       ... 'cause people get to touch and feel you in real time.

    10. SPSpeaker1:45:23

        Yeah.

    11. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:45:23

        People can send you a message, and you can respond immediately.

    12. SPSpeaker1:45:26

        Mm.

    13. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:45:26

        And, you know, it's like, imagine if you were watching Mahabharat with your family, and if your dad could super chat- [chuckles]

    14. SPSpeaker1:45:33

        Mm, mm

    15. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:45:33

        ... Yudhishtra on, on T- TV, right? Like, it's, it's that. It's like modern-day VJs, but who you can, you can touch and feel.

    16. SPSpeaker1:45:39

        Yeah.

    17. UBUmang Bedi1:45:39

        It's interesting, Twitch gamified the whole experience nicely. Actually, the first live that I remember as a consumer was Facebook Live, as a feature.

    18. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:45:48

        Mm.

    19. UBUmang Bedi1:45:48

        This was way back in 2014.

    20. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:45:50

        '14, yeah.

    21. UBUmang Bedi1:45:51

        Right? Or 2015, actually, sorry.

    22. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:45:53

        Mm.

    23. UBUmang Bedi1:45:54

        Um, that was the first live, uh, but there was no gamification, there was no subscription, there was no, uh, ability to tip the creator, gift t- to the creator.

    24. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:46:04

        Yeah, I think when a, when a mammoth company tries a feature-

    25. UBUmang Bedi1:46:07

        Yeah

    26. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:46:07

        ... they don't give enough into it to make it work.

    27. UBUmang Bedi1:46:10

        Yeah, that's true.

    28. SPSpeaker1:46:10

        Mm.

    29. UBUmang Bedi1:46:11

        That's true.

    30. NKNikhil Kamath1:46:11

        Yeah.
32. 1:47:14 – 1:48:17

    Butterfly effect?

    1. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:47:14

       Yeah.

    2. NKNikhil Kamath1:47:14

       Mm. Butterfly effects.

    3. UBUmang Bedi1:47:15

       Yeah. Very, very-

    4. NKNikhil Kamath1:47:16

       No, so you're-

    5. UBUmang Bedi1:47:16

       It's very different [laughing]

    6. NKNikhil Kamath1:47:17

       ... you flap in different corners, and you pray. [laughing]

    7. UBUmang Bedi1:47:19

       That's not what a butterfly effect is. [laughing]

    8. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:47:23

       [laughing]

    9. SPSpeaker1:47:23

       In a, in a transaction company, it's easier. Like a TaxiForSure, you had drivers, users-

    10. NKNikhil Kamath1:47:29

        Mm

    11. SPSpeaker1:47:29

        ... right? Uh, if you had to accelerate it-

    12. NKNikhil Kamath1:47:32

        Mm

    13. SPSpeaker1:47:32

        ... you had to give cheap rates to the users-

    14. NKNikhil Kamath1:47:34

        Mm, mm

    15. SPSpeaker1:47:35

        ... and, uh, compensate to the driver, and you take it off.

    16. UBUmang Bedi1:47:39

        Yeah.

    17. SPSpeaker1:47:39

        Right? In a social media network, uh, it's not just two people, right? There's, there's the user, advertiser, creator, government. You know, everybody has to be happy at the same time.

    18. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:47:52

        Yeah.

    19. SPSpeaker1:47:52

        Everybody has to use it, right? So it's a multidimensional, uh, network that you're creating. Here, you cannot, uh, you know, program this-

    20. NKNikhil Kamath1:48:03

        Mm.

    21. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:48:03

        Yeah

    22. SPSpeaker1:48:04

        ... initially. Once you take off, then you can add a little bit of math.

    23. NKNikhil Kamath1:48:07

        Right.

    24. SPSpeaker1:48:07

        Okay, user, do a loyalty program, give them discounts-

    25. NKNikhil Kamath1:48:10

        Right

    26. SPSpeaker1:48:10

        ... for having used. Creator, help them monetize. These two are happy, and hence everybody else is happy. But

33. 1:48:17 – 1:49:51

    Dominance of American media

    1. SPSpeaker1:48:17

       you need... So, American social media works very well because they can really push down any product-

    2. NKNikhil Kamath1:48:25

       Mm

    3. SPSpeaker1:48:26

       ... down the throat of the whole world at once.

    4. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:48:29

       Mm.

    5. SPSpeaker1:48:30

       So their machinery to go global-

    6. NKNikhil Kamath1:48:32

       Mm

    7. SPSpeaker1:48:32

       ... is stronger than anyone else.

    8. NKNikhil Kamath1:48:34

       Why is that?

    9. SPSpeaker1:48:35

       I think media, they can-

    10. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:48:37

        Their own culture

    11. SPSpeaker1:48:37

        ... create a global story. Yeah.

    12. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:48:39

        Their own culture.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:48:40

        Is- do you think that's through entertainment or news channels?

    14. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:48:43

        See, the-

    15. NKNikhil Kamath1:48:44

        Like, how do they, how do they make culture?

    16. SPSpeaker1:48:45

        Aspiration to be American-

    17. NKNikhil Kamath1:48:47

        Hmm

    18. SPSpeaker1:48:47

        ... is very high generally.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath1:48:49

        Mm.

    20. SPSpeaker1:48:49

        Right? American life, we've all seen Friends.

    21. NKNikhil Kamath1:48:52

        Like, I'll give you an example. Uh, say, a really cool new social media company is open in SF right now.

    22. SPSpeaker1:49:01

        Mm.

    23. NKNikhil Kamath1:49:01

        Before it scales, how do we get to hear about it?

    24. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:49:05

        Let's take Clubhouse, right?

    25. NKNikhil Kamath1:49:06

        Yeah.

    26. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:49:06

        How did you hear about Clubhouse?

    27. NKNikhil Kamath1:49:08

        Referral. Somebody said...

    28. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:49:10

        Yeah.

    29. NKNikhil Kamath1:49:10

        Somebody spoke about it.

    30. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:49:11

        Somebody spoke about it. I heard it because Elon Musk joined, joined a Clubhouse room.
34. 1:49:51 – 1:54:43

    What is TikTok doing right that others aren’t?

    1. UBUmang Bedi1:49:51

       from the outside.

    2. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:49:51

       Outside, yeah.

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:49:52

       What is TikTok doing right that others aren't?

    4. UBUmang Bedi1:49:55

       ... So couple of things. Um, one, it's probably got the most powerful creator tools on the planet.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:50:02

       Mm.

    6. UBUmang Bedi1:50:02

       Um, two, it's probably got the most sophisticated content graph-based algorithm. Uh, we use a similar algorithm, but I would say theirs is far deeper, um, to understand video-

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:50:13

       Mm

    8. UBUmang Bedi1:50:13

       ... and contextually personalize it to the extent that two TikTok feeds look like no other. Um, but they are so personal, and they're so engaging to that individual. And three, I think what it's now built on top of this is this insane commerce-based monetization engine.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath1:50:32

       Yeah.

    10. UBUmang Bedi1:50:33

        Uh, where small businesses are hosting stores, commerce has taken off. Today, Douyin is driving 7% of all commerce in China. Douyin is the Chinese name for-

    11. NKNikhil Kamath1:50:44

        TikTok

    12. UBUmang Bedi1:50:44

        ... TikTok in China, right? Uh, first, you know, it was cringey. TikTok was cringey, nobody went on it. Now, it's suddenly cool to be on it. Um, all I- all the friends that I know in the US have bought something on TikTok.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:50:57

        Must also sound cool that some countries are banning it, right?

    14. UBUmang Bedi1:51:00

        Yeah, yeah.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath1:51:00

        That automatically makes everything cool.

    16. UBUmang Bedi1:51:02

        I want it more.

    17. NKNikhil Kamath1:51:02

        Streisand effect. [clears throat]

    18. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:51:03

        Yeah, so I think TikTok, uh, just got... TikTok should have never started in China.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath1:51:10

        Mm.

    20. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:51:10

        It should have started in India.

    21. NKNikhil Kamath1:51:11

        Mm.

    22. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:51:12

        As in the original, original idea of TikTok.

    23. NKNikhil Kamath1:51:14

        Why is that?

    24. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:51:15

        Boss, we are the Bollywood guys, boss. Like, you know, TikTok is-

    25. UBUmang Bedi1:51:19

        Right

    26. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:51:19

        ... dubbing, right? So I call short video apps-

    27. NKNikhil Kamath1:51:23

        Mm

    28. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:51:24

        ... micro or nano Bollywood, right? Uh-

    29. UBUmang Bedi1:51:26

        So I call that category escapism, right?

    30. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:51:29

        Yeah.
35. 1:54:43 – 1:59:42

    Are videos more engaging than text?

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:54:44

       everybody seems to be saying we are moving from text bar images to video in one form or another. What makes video so much more engaging? And especially from your perspective at Koo, 'cause it's more text-oriented, I'm, I'm assuming. How do you kind of cope with that?

    2. UBUmang Bedi1:55:06

       Yeah, so [exhales] uh, content format is not like the way to define future or past, right? Each use case defines what content format. Instagram basically gave you a filter in your hand, and that made prettier photos, and hence it became lifestyle as a network.

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:55:27

       Mm.

    4. UBUmang Bedi1:55:28

       Right? So what started- what's the chicken and egg?

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:55:31

       Mm.

    6. UBUmang Bedi1:55:31

       You never know. Like, photo was the thing. Um, videos work in entertainment, some education, long form.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:55:41

       Mm.

    8. UBUmang Bedi1:55:41

       But in terms of opinions and thoughts-

    9. NKNikhil Kamath1:55:44

       Mm

    10. UBUmang Bedi1:55:44

        ... unless it's, like, the biggest opinion maker and thought leader talking to you, you're not going to sit and watch a common man's video.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath1:55:53

        Mm.

    12. UBUmang Bedi1:55:53

        Right? So if it's thoughts and opinions, I think a multimedia approach works better, which is what Koo is.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:56:00

        But you can do that, too, right? You can upload videos on Koo, right?

    14. UBUmang Bedi1:56:02

        Yeah. So multimedia works-

    15. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:56:05

        ... the big guys will do video, and that will be attractive. The common guy putting out text and saying something-

    16. NKNikhil Kamath1:56:11

        Mm

    17. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:56:11

        ... will still, and text can't be replaced that easily. Like, the, the quick glance that you do when you're scrolling content is not available. You, you have to commit in audio and video.

    18. NKNikhil Kamath1:56:22

        Mm.

    19. UBUmang Bedi1:56:22

        Yeah.

    20. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:56:23

        But in text, you don't. And the Instagram founders have founded a new app, right? And that's all text. That's-

    21. NKNikhil Kamath1:56:29

        It's a new, news as TikTok.

    22. UBUmang Bedi1:56:31

        I, I cringed when I saw that. [chuckles]

    23. NKNikhil Kamath1:56:32

        What is it called?

    24. UBUmang Bedi1:56:33

        It's called [censored] .

    25. NKNikhil Kamath1:56:34

        Uh.

    26. UBUmang Bedi1:56:35

        The freaking UX.

    27. NKNikhil Kamath1:56:37

        Bad?

    28. ARAprameya Radhakrishna1:56:37

        Yes.

    29. UBUmang Bedi1:56:38

        It's cut, copy, paste of Dailyhunt.

    30. NKNikhil Kamath1:56:40

        Dailyhunt.
36. 1:59:42 – 2:04:22

    Which platform makes you feel the worst?

    1. UBUmang Bedi1:59:42

       cost.

    2. NKNikhil Kamath1:59:42

       So a lot of people, I think, take issue to the fact that whatever is put up on social media is embellishment in one form or another. Uh, nobody's true life is getting depicted, but a fantasy version of a snapshot of their life. Uh, and human subconscious will generally misconstrue to think that other person's life is like that, compare, and feel like [censored] about it. Right, like they'll feel [censored] about the comparison. If we had to j- if we had to, like, kind of filter, gauge, judge-

    3. UBUmang Bedi2:00:22

       Mm

    4. NKNikhil Kamath2:00:22

       ... put different platforms in a ladder, which platform do you think makes you feel worst?

    5. ARAprameya Radhakrishna2:00:29

       Instagram.

    6. UBUmang Bedi2:00:30

       Instagram.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath2:00:31

       Instagram?

    8. ARAprameya Radhakrishna2:00:31

       Twitter and Instagram.

    9. UBUmang Bedi2:00:32

       The same example-

    10. NKNikhil Kamath2:00:32

        No, which one?

    11. UBUmang Bedi2:00:33

        ... I gave you, my driver.

    12. NKNikhil Kamath2:00:33

        Uh.

    13. UBUmang Bedi2:00:34

        Instagram, number one.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath2:00:35

        Instagram, number one.

    15. ARAprameya Radhakrishna2:00:36

        Instagram.

    16. NKNikhil Kamath2:00:36

        Then, followed by?

    17. ARAprameya Radhakrishna2:00:37

        Twitter.

    18. NKNikhil Kamath2:00:38

        Twitter makes you feel like [censored] ?

    19. UBUmang Bedi2:00:40

        Yeah.

    20. ARAprameya Radhakrishna2:00:41

        Because of opinions.

    21. NKNikhil Kamath2:00:42

        Twitter makes you feel like [censored] because of that negative feedback loop, right? Because people constantly say [censored] .

    22. ARAprameya Radhakrishna2:00:47

        People constantly say [censored] . Um, it's very, very high opinion.

    23. UBUmang Bedi2:00:53

        Yeah.

    24. ARAprameya Radhakrishna2:00:54

        Now, actually, the Twitter algorithm has changed in the last two, three years-

    25. NKNikhil Kamath2:00:57

        Mm

    26. ARAprameya Radhakrishna2:00:57

        ... where there's now people you follow, and there's a for you-

    27. UBUmang Bedi2:01:01

        Yeah.

    28. NKNikhil Kamath2:01:02

        Mm

    29. ARAprameya Radhakrishna2:01:02

        ... which is what Twitter serves to you. So-

    30. UBUmang Bedi2:01:04

        That's only what Elon Musk says.
37. 2:04:22 – 2:04:54

    Is Tanmay in a relationship?

    1. TBTanmay Bhat2:04:22

       now." [laughing]

    2. NKNikhil Kamath2:04:23

       Are you in a relationship, Tanmay?

    3. TBTanmay Bhat2:04:24

       I am not.

    4. NKNikhil Kamath2:04:25

       When was the last one?

    5. TBTanmay Bhat2:04:27

       What has happened to social media? [laughing] Can you tell me, Nikhil Kamath? [laughing]

    6. SPSpeaker2:04:30

       [laughing]

    7. NKNikhil Kamath2:04:31

       Dating apps.

    8. SPSpeaker2:04:32

       I hooked up on social media.

    9. TBTanmay Bhat2:04:33

       Through social media?

    10. SPSpeaker2:04:34

        I've met people.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath2:04:35

        100%.

    12. SPSpeaker2:04:35

        100%.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath2:04:36

        My God!

    14. TBTanmay Bhat2:04:37

        Yeah, I once made out with someone inside Instagram. [laughing]

    15. NKNikhil Kamath2:04:41

        How do you do that?

    16. TBTanmay Bhat2:04:41

        What is hooked up through, through social media? What does that even mean? Like, met people through social media, yeah. Why are all of you so interested in my dating life? [laughing]

    17. SPSpeaker2:04:49

        [laughing]

    18. TBTanmay Bhat2:04:49

        It's fascinating to me.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath2:04:50

        [laughing]

    20. SPSpeaker2:04:50

        [laughing]

    21. TBTanmay Bhat2:04:51

        Every 15 minutes of this podcast-

    22. SPSpeaker2:04:53

        What is the... What is the-

38. 2:04:54 – 2:07:45

    What is the role of envy in social media?

    1. SPSpeaker2:04:54

       [laughing]

    2. NKNikhil Kamath2:04:54

       Hey, that's interesting. What is the role of envy in social media?

    3. TBTanmay Bhat2:04:58

       Oh, man.

    4. NKNikhil Kamath2:04:58

       How much of social media is fed by envy? [coughs]

    5. SPSpeaker2:05:00

       Dude-

    6. TBTanmay Bhat2:05:01

       [coughs] Dude, e- envy is the fuel for social media, and it acts out in different ways, right? Um, for example, I think a lot of, uh, a lot of whiny, a lot of whiny folks who are on Twitter, a lot of it is just envy, right? Like, like I think the hate for, uh, influencers and celebs is largely envy.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath2:05:27

       Mm.

    8. TBTanmay Bhat2:05:28

       Um, like it's, it's-

    9. NKNikhil Kamath2:05:30

       Give us a categorization of envy. What will make people envy you the most? Is it how many followers you have?

    10. TBTanmay Bhat2:05:37

        Mm.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath2:05:37

        Is it your lifestyle, how it has changed because of the following? Is it-

    12. TBTanmay Bhat2:05:41

        I mean, everybody envies different, different aspects of different people's lives, right? Um, but, like, if I, if I were to sit and [censored] about Elon Musk, but if you ask me a question saying: Would you like to be Elon Musk? The answer is 99 out of 100 people would be like, "Yeah, [censored] yes. Yeah, I would love to be Elon Musk, at least for, like, a week."

    13. NKNikhil Kamath2:06:05

        Mm.

    14. TBTanmay Bhat2:06:05

        Right?

    15. NKNikhil Kamath2:06:06

        Yeah.

    16. TBTanmay Bhat2:06:06

        Um, so a lot of negative energy, I think, comes out of, out of envy. I feel, uh, whenever I see, uh, [lips smack] people going out of their way to be negative, to be in comments, it's mostly like, okay, this person is clearly having a [censored] day.

    17. NKNikhil Kamath2:06:20

        Mm.

    18. TBTanmay Bhat2:06:21

        And the act of opening an app and seeing what you post voluntarily and then them commenting publicly about something [censored] about you, is usually a reflection of them not having a good day.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath2:06:33

        It's also a sense of community, right? Because they kind of collaborate with other people who are saying [censored] about you, and they feel like they're part of something. No?

    20. TBTanmay Bhat2:06:41

        Yeah.

    21. SPSpeaker2:06:41

        Mm.

    22. TBTanmay Bhat2:06:41

        It's like-

    23. NKNikhil Kamath2:06:42

        In a way, we are, right?

    24. TBTanmay Bhat2:06:42

        ... it's like, you know, if, if someone says something [censored] to you, and 15 peop- 15 other people get to feel the same way by just liking it.

    25. NKNikhil Kamath2:06:49

        Right.

    26. SPSpeaker2:06:49

        Yeah.

    27. TBTanmay Bhat2:06:49

        Right. They don't even wanna go through the effort of-

    28. NKNikhil Kamath2:06:51

        But that's dopamine, too, right?

    29. TBTanmay Bhat2:06:53

        That's dopamine. I mean, the person who's liking it is not getting the dopamine-

    30. NKNikhil Kamath2:06:56

        Mm
39. 2:07:45 – 2:08:14

    What is Elon Musk going through?

    1. NKNikhil Kamath2:07:45

       you think-

    2. TBTanmay Bhat2:07:45

       Clout

    3. NKNikhil Kamath2:07:45

       ... Elon is going through? If you had to, like, vicariously-

    4. SPSpeaker2:07:48

       Exactly

    5. NKNikhil Kamath2:07:48

       ... think like him. Like, why do you think he tweets as much? Is it because it's working for him?

    6. SPSpeaker2:07:54

       He's got the... So I don't think he has a marketing team for Tesla or SpaceX or now Twitter, or-

    7. NKNikhil Kamath2:08:03

       Or the Boring Company.

    8. TBTanmay Bhat2:08:04

       He is the mark- he, he is the marketing.

    9. SPSpeaker2:08:06

       If he thinks something, all of us know it. Like, how powerful is that? How many people have that?

    10. NKNikhil Kamath2:08:12

        ... I think this is the most

40. 2:08:14 – 2:18:00

    The investment horizon and future of social media

    1. NKNikhil Kamath2:08:14

       powerful tool there is out there, right? Like, media, social media, news media, print media-

    2. SPSpeaker2:08:19

       100%

    3. NKNikhil Kamath2:08:19

       -all of it.

    4. SPSpeaker2:08:21

       Yeah.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath2:08:21

       But I think the money has kind of got drained from most traditional media outlets.

    6. SPSpeaker2:08:26

       Yeah.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath2:08:27

       So it'll be interesting to watch what changes in the future. If I had to, like, put you guys on the spot and ask you for one line, what do you think will change in media bar social media in the next 10 years? And pick one company. If you were to start afresh, you would invest, in which one would it be?

    8. SPSpeaker2:08:48

       Interesting. I think, um, so in the world of thoughts and opinions, um, so just like in the world of TikTok-

    9. NKNikhil Kamath2:08:59

       You can't say Koo, you can't say Josh and Dailyhunt.

    10. SPSpeaker2:09:02

        I, I won't say it.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath2:09:03

        [chuckles]

    12. SPSpeaker2:09:03

        But this is what I-

    13. NKNikhil Kamath2:09:04

        Uh-huh

    14. SPSpeaker2:09:04

        ... kind of know deeper, so I, I'm sticking to thoughts and opinions. But in the world of short video, anybody who felt like Shah Rukh Khan or whichever cultural big guy for short video in that country, TikTok made that happen.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath2:09:21

        See-

    16. SPSpeaker2:09:21

        Thought leader in the world of thoughts and opinions, an app that will make anybody feel like, you know, their, uh, biggest, you know, news anchor, journalist, blah, and being able to portray themselves like a Raveesh Kumar or an Arnab Goswami, or whoever, sitting at home, giving out... belting out-

    17. NKNikhil Kamath2:09:45

        Mm

    18. SPSpeaker2:09:46

        ... uh, interviews, belting out their own thoughts and opinions, but look professional. Isn't that kind of, uh, experience, I think will-

    19. NKNikhil Kamath2:09:55

        And-

    20. SPSpeaker2:09:55

        will go a long way? Yeah.

    21. NKNikhil Kamath2:09:56

        Pick a company which is investable in a certain way, private or public.

    22. SPSpeaker2:10:01

        Uh, I would... Social media, right? Um, I mean, now that's, I think-

    23. NKNikhil Kamath2:10:09

        I mean, you can say print or traditional media, but I wouldn't think you will.

    24. SPSpeaker2:10:12

        I wouldn't, I wouldn't invest in traditional media anymore. I think democratisation of-

    25. NKNikhil Kamath2:10:17

        Mm.

    26. SPSpeaker2:10:17

        The, the superhero won't exist-

    27. NKNikhil Kamath2:10:20

        Mm

    28. SPSpeaker2:10:21

        ... for too long. I think decentralised superheroes is the way to go, whether you take entertainment or sports or news or whatever it is. So these are the, uh, things. Nobody is really doing it. Everybody is already famous. I think Snap is a good-

    29. NKNikhil Kamath2:10:39

        Really?

    30. SPSpeaker2:10:39

        Yeah, like-
41. 2:18:00 – 2:25:26

    Nikhil on meeting Bill Gates

    1. NKNikhil Kamath2:18:00

       weekend.

    2. TBTanmay Bhat2:18:00

       Oh, you meant Bill Gates, right? Dude, how was that?

    3. NKNikhil Kamath2:18:03

       So I met him for dinner on Friday and breakfast for Saturday. And breakfast was alone, and, uh, he sat... So I always have questions, so I had a bunch of questions for him. Some very interesting answers. Mm. The one thing, uh, there are many things, but one of the things that we were talking about is, everybody has been talking about climate change for as long as we have. Uh, we all estimated world peak population at one point to be 15 billion-

    4. TBTanmay Bhat2:18:36

       Mm

    5. NKNikhil Kamath2:18:36

       ... at another point to be 12 billion. I think we are getting to that point where world population will quickly start to decline.

    6. TBTanmay Bhat2:18:45

       Mm.

    7. SPSpeaker2:18:46

       Mm.

    8. NKNikhil Kamath2:18:46

       So I was asking him: "Do you think with this trend," and these trends generally get exaggerated very quickly, "do you think it makes sense to focus on mitigating climate change today as much as it did a few years ago?" Because of the demogra- graphic change in the world. And, uh, he personally has, like, a bunch of tiers in which he puts in his money. Health, I think, is fore- foremost for him. Then he has breakthrough energy. So then I, I was asking him the exact same question I'm asking you guys. I said: "If you were to start over in life and you had $100 million, what energy would you personally invest in? Which energy company would you personally invest in? Would you go renewables? Would you go solar? Would you go wind? Would you go fission, fusion?" Uh, so he said, out of the 16 fission companies, nuclear, he's here- he probably is invested in about four or five of them, and he bet on fission. Uh, but the incredible thing about, um, him is his eclect- the eclectic nature of his knowledge. You know, you can go from talking vaccine, to talking climate-

    9. SPSpeaker2:20:01

       Mm

    10. NKNikhil Kamath2:20:01

        ... to talking energy, to talking everything. And, uh, when it came to energy, his reasoning was, India has sun, but the world hasn't really cracked storage technology for this electricity, which we generate during the day-

    11. SPSpeaker2:20:17

        Mm

    12. NKNikhil Kamath2:20:17

        ... but utilize a lot of during the night. Uh, we still have very inefficient transmission.... we still lose something like 40, 50% of the electricity that we generate from the point it's generated to the point of consumption. India is not geographically well-situated for wind, so he was kinda like, uh, I think he doesn't say much directly, but I think he was talking a lot about nuclear. Uh, are there investable opportunities in there? Yeah. But-

    13. UBUmang Bedi2:20:51

        Mm

    14. NKNikhil Kamath2:20:51

        ... for some reason, the world has taken a U-turn on nuclear in the last few years. Uh, people have different angles with w- how they approach answering why that has happened, but I think the most logical answer amongst many answers is the nuclear facilities we had were quite outdated, and instead of putting in that much more money to kinda renovate and start afresh, I think people are picking other means. But very interesting conversations. Uh, incredibly, incredibly smart individual, and-

    15. UBUmang Bedi2:21:27

        What did you eat for dinner?

    16. NKNikhil Kamath2:21:29

        The previous night dinner?

    17. UBUmang Bedi2:21:31

        Uh, no, for breakfast.

    18. NKNikhil Kamath2:21:31

        There were a bunch of people.

    19. UBUmang Bedi2:21:31

        Breakfast, what did you eat?

    20. NKNikhil Kamath2:21:32

        Just, like, some sandwich and something. I asked him what supplements he's on, and, uh, he was talking... I can't remember what he- what name he took, but, uh, he doesn't supplement himself with that much, apparently. But, you know, I was driving back from this thing, and me and Nitin were sitting in the car, and we were just talking to each other about how people like this function, right? Like, [lips smack] uh, breakfast was at 8:30 a.m. or 9:00 a.m., or whatever, and we were in our tiny bubbles, kinda like, not complaining, but we were kinda like, you know, "Oh, [lips smack] we had to wake up at 8:00 a.m. on a weekend. That's the only day we get to sleep," and all of that.

    21. UBUmang Bedi2:22:19

        Mm.

    22. NKNikhil Kamath2:22:20

        But then you equate that to somebody like him, who's double our age. He had been to maybe 15 meetings in-

    23. UBUmang Bedi2:22:32

        Wow!

    24. NKNikhil Kamath2:22:32

        ... in that one weekend window. He had traveled to three cities. He had met us for dinner, had similar conversations, and at breakfast, he was again doing it with so much, uh-

    25. UBUmang Bedi2:22:46

        Passion.

    26. NKNikhil Kamath2:22:46

        Yeah. It's incredible, you know? Some people, I feel, are really, really driven in life.

    27. UBUmang Bedi2:22:54

        Mm.

    28. NKNikhil Kamath2:22:55

        And I don't think that comes from a external, uh, external incentive per se, but I think they're innately very driven. I've been... I've met, luckily, a few people like that. I know I'm not like that. I feel like it's nice to at least see people like that.

    29. UBUmang Bedi2:23:13

        Yeah, totally.

    30. ARAprameya Radhakrishna2:23:15

        Man, whoever bullied Bill Gates as a kid- [laughing]
42. 2:25:26 – 2:31:22

    Will these companies stay relevant 5 years from now?

    1. ARAprameya Radhakrishna2:25:26

       compared to TikTok-

    2. NKNikhil Kamath2:25:27

       Do you think these companies will remain as relevant as they are now, five years from now?

    3. UBUmang Bedi2:25:32

       I don't think so.

    4. ARAprameya Radhakrishna2:25:33

       I mean-

    5. NKNikhil Kamath2:25:33

       Mm-hmm

    6. ARAprameya Radhakrishna2:25:34

       ... something else could dis-

    7. UBUmang Bedi2:25:36

       I think-

    8. ARAprameya Radhakrishna2:25:36

       ... could come along that could be disruptive, but-

    9. UBUmang Bedi2:25:39

       I mean, if you just think about the heydays of tech, and, you know, it's interesting that you mentioned Bill Gates. I started my career in '99. At that time, there were two camps. You had to choose one. There was the Microsoft camp, and there was the Java camp, right?

    10. NKNikhil Kamath2:25:51

        Mm.

    11. UBUmang Bedi2:25:51

        And all the cool kids went to the Java camp, all the boring guys went into the Microsoft camp.

    12. ARAprameya Radhakrishna2:25:55

        Dot-

    13. NKNikhil Kamath2:25:55

        Can I add something before I forget?

    14. UBUmang Bedi2:25:57

        Yeah.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath2:25:57

        He said the biggest opportunity he missed is losing the operating system to Android.

    16. UBUmang Bedi2:26:02

        Totally.

    17. ARAprameya Radhakrishna2:26:03

        Mm.

    18. UBUmang Bedi2:26:04

        Yeah.

    19. ARAprameya Radhakrishna2:26:06

        On mobile, right?

    20. UBUmang Bedi2:26:06

        Yeah.

    21. NKNikhil Kamath2:26:06

        They tried and-

    22. UBUmang Bedi2:26:07

        He totally lost it, right?

    23. ARAprameya Radhakrishna2:26:08

        Yeah.

    24. UBUmang Bedi2:26:08

        So if you think about it, he owned desktop computing.

    25. ARAprameya Radhakrishna2:26:11

        Correct.

    26. UBUmang Bedi2:26:11

        Uh-

    27. NKNikhil Kamath2:26:12

        It makes sense for him to own.

    28. UBUmang Bedi2:26:12

        Right. Server-side computing, he lost on the big scale of it when it was all Unix-

    29. ARAprameya Radhakrishna2:26:19

        Mm

    30. UBUmang Bedi2:26:19

        ... Unix-based systems, and that's what gave rise to Sun Microsystems, right? At one point of time, it was the coolest company to work for in the Valley, right? In the heydays. When I was at Sun, we were trained to hate Microsoft, but if you think of what Microsoft eventually did with its blades and its back-end compute, and moved to the server side, it made that entire piece redundant, right? So his biggest loss is-... well, there are only X number of PCs in the world.
43. 2:31:22 – 2:32:30

    Is social media good for our mental well-being?

    1. NKNikhil Kamath2:31:22

       correlation between depression, the correlation between, uh, if insecurity were a metric, let me say that-

    2. SPSpeaker2:31:30

       Mm

    3. NKNikhil Kamath2:31:31

       ... all of that, I think, is pretty clear that being on social media, to a certain extent, is not good for our mental wellbeing.

    4. ARAprameya Radhakrishna2:31:41

       Of course.

    5. UBUmang Bedi2:31:42

       Yeah.

    6. NKNikhil Kamath2:31:42

       Right? You guys own social media platforms. He's the largest social media influencer. Uh, how do you... I- Can I call it, like, an ethical conundrum? Like-

    7. UBUmang Bedi2:31:56

       Yeah

    8. NKNikhil Kamath2:31:56

       ... how does that make you feel? And I have- I mean, [tsks] it- I know this is a tough question to answer.

    9. SPSpeaker2:32:04

       Mm.

    10. NKNikhil Kamath2:32:04

        So...

    11. UBUmang Bedi2:32:05

        I'll take a shot.

    12. ARAprameya Radhakrishna2:32:05

        My question is-

    13. NKNikhil Kamath2:32:06

        Uh

    14. ARAprameya Radhakrishna2:32:07

        ... 94% of all traders lose money.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath2:32:09

        I was about to say that. [laughing]

    16. ARAprameya Radhakrishna2:32:11

        [laughing] So I would like to know- [laughing]

    17. NKNikhil Kamath2:32:13

        Yeah

    18. ARAprameya Radhakrishna2:32:14

        ... how do you sleep at night, Nikhil? [laughing]

    19. UBUmang Bedi2:32:19

        [laughing] That's a good one.

    20. NKNikhil Kamath2:32:21

        I was about to say that.

    21. ARAprameya Radhakrishna2:32:22

        [laughing]

    22. NKNikhil Kamath2:32:22

        I didn't, uh, alleviate, I didn't course-correct while I was saying. I should have pre-faced with that.

    23. UBUmang Bedi2:32:28

        Well, I think that-

    24. NKNikhil Kamath2:32:29

        True, but that's a fair

44. 2:32:30 – 2:34:15

    Nikhil on investing in the stock market

    1. NKNikhil Kamath2:32:30

       question. Uh, the, the thing is, when people come to the stock markets to trade, there are four or five things they do incorrectly, which causes the odds of them losing money to go up incrementally.

    2. ARAprameya Radhakrishna2:32:44

       Mm.

    3. UBUmang Bedi2:32:44

       Mm.

    4. NKNikhil Kamath2:32:45

       If you did simple things-... like, the simplest thing is to buy the Nifty or buy five large cap companies. If you did that at any point of time in the last 30, 40 years-

    5. NKNikhil Kamath2:32:57

       Mm-hmm, you'd be okay.

    6. NKNikhil Kamath2:32:57

       -and you did not touch it, you would've done very, very well. And you have that big, uh, gap in taxation. I think people don't realize how big that gap is. Like, if you invest in stocks and you pay 10% long-term capital gain tax versus earning in a business or a partnership or a corporate or whatever structure and paying 30, 40% -

    7. NKNikhil Kamath2:33:19

       Mm.

    8. NKNikhil Kamath2:33:20

       -just that arbitrage in taxation, right? Compounded wealth 20, 30 years down the line is incredible.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath2:33:28

       It's massive.

    10. NKNikhil Kamath2:33:29

        Yeah, the opportunity is there, but, uh, even this has many issues, like social media does.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath2:33:35

        Correct.

    12. NKNikhil Kamath2:33:35

        And I think the onus is on the... Can I call as an intermediary? Of some sort. I think the onus is on the intermediary to educate rightly the ones who are suffering the most, hence we vocally keep saying, "These are the numbers."

    13. NKNikhil Kamath2:33:54

        Well answered.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath2:33:55

        Yeah?

    15. NKNikhil Kamath2:33:55

        Mm-hmm.

    16. UBUmang Bedi2:33:56

        Very sharp.

    17. NKNikhil Kamath2:33:56

        Very well answered.

    18. NKNikhil Kamath2:33:57

        Yeah? [chuckles]

    19. UBUmang Bedi2:33:57

        Very sharp answer.

    20. NKNikhil Kamath2:33:58

        Good answer.

    21. UBUmang Bedi2:33:59

        I've thought about this. [laughing]

    22. NKNikhil Kamath2:34:01

        Ah, are you, are you tweeting from Nitin's account?

    23. NKNikhil Kamath2:34:02

        I didn't think he would bring it up now, dude. [laughing] I shouldn't be here. [laughing]

    24. UBUmang Bedi2:34:09

        Oh, that's one that shouldn't be edited. [laughing] It should remain there.

    25. NKNikhil Kamath2:34:13

        Good answer.

    26. UBUmang Bedi2:34:14

        Well, I think the-

45. 2:34:15 – 2:42:22

    Impact of social media on kids

    1. UBUmang Bedi2:34:15

       there's a larger point to the problem, right? One is all mental health, depression, everything else. The other is the impact on kids.

    2. NKNikhil Kamath2:34:21

       Mm.

    3. UBUmang Bedi2:34:22

       Right? Um, I'll start by saying that... I'll come to how we deal with it, but I'll start by saying that there are lots of perils in society. There are bad actors-

    4. NKNikhil Kamath2:34:32

       Mm

    5. UBUmang Bedi2:34:32

       ... in the physical world. Likewise, those bad actors exist on the digital world, right? Um, there are live rapes that are conducted, there is live murders that have happened, there are live suicides that have happened. Um, I have had the unfortunate, uh, uh, this thing of even seeing some of this, right? Uh, what it casts on our children is crazy, right?

    6. NKNikhil Kamath2:34:56

       Mm.

    7. UBUmang Bedi2:34:56

       So the impact that it could cause on children is deeply negative, right? Very, very deeply negative. From, you know, the aspiration side, to body shaming, to how they mentally feel about themselves, to everything else out there, right? So I think, uh, most social media platforms around the world have always said that we're the intermediary and we're not responsible for what's going on-

    8. NKNikhil Kamath2:35:23

       Mm

    9. UBUmang Bedi2:35:23

       ... on the content on the, on the platform. I think India has just passed an interesting regulation, uh, which is making intermediaries accountable.

    10. NKNikhil Kamath2:35:31

        Responsible.

    11. UBUmang Bedi2:35:32

        Right? Uh, and I think... And I'm not here to praise the government in any way, but I think it's the right thing to do. Um, at our end, what we ensure is a whole bunch of things around the platform being family safe, child safe, uh, weeding out a lot of, uh, porn, soft porn, animal porn, all kinds of stuff that comes onto the platform. Right, I- Trust me, in child porn, like, it's crazy. It's just mad the amount of it that comes. Uh, you've got to use AI and tech to do that because-

    12. NKNikhil Kamath2:36:06

        Yeah

    13. UBUmang Bedi2:36:06

        ... you know, human layer cannot do it. Live is another hugely risky proposition. We've launched live, live tipping for creators, but you've got to have AI tools and human moderation, uh, to cut it in, uh, real time. Things which are hard to do is hate speech, um, uh, and anything like that in that realm, because AI really can't weave it. So what we do is, we observe that if a certain video or a certain piece of content reaches a certain velocity in a certain period of time, we look at it for manual moderation. If it breaks the next threshold, another guy looks at it. Uh, and then we're, we're waiting to see, is it illicit? Is it enticing? Is it hate speech? Is it, you know, uh, communal in nature? And then we bring it down. Um, but I think in the last five years of doing this, we haven't had any massive issue, otherwise you would have read about it, right? So I think the tools are working. Uh, and because we're preloaded on all these phones, we have to keep the app family safe. So you can spend hours on the platform, you won't find-

    14. NKNikhil Kamath2:37:13

        Mm

    15. UBUmang Bedi2:37:13

        ... racy, raunchy content. So I would pride that we've done it the right way.

    16. NKNikhil Kamath2:37:17

        Yeah.

    17. UBUmang Bedi2:37:17

        Um, lots to do still, because, you know, hackers are smart, and, you know, people who want to game the system will do it. But I think it's a real problem, and on one side, I do feel that companies need to step up and take responsibility.

    18. NKNikhil Kamath2:37:34

        Would you allow... If you had to block your kids from one particular platform and say that, "No way are you allowed to touch this," which one would it be?

    19. UBUmang Bedi2:37:51

        It's, it's extreme because, by the way, you can find a lot of illicit content on YouTube.

Episode duration: 2:42:40