Nikhil KamathIf UPI Is Free, Who Pays for It? | PhonePe, Razorpay & NPCI | WTF is Payments?
Episode Details
EPISODE INFO
- Released
- October 30, 2026
- Duration
- 4h 0m
- Channel
- Nikhil Kamath
- Watch on YouTube
- ▶ Open ↗
EPISODE DESCRIPTION
Access the full data and references used in this episode below. Please open this alongside the episode while watching. https://www.canva.com/design/DAHVQSlqQZQ/Nfv8N2FMGz22OAcanl0LFg/edit We scan a QR code, enter a PIN, and move on. I wanted to understand everything that happens in between. If a payment feels instant and costs us nothing, who is doing the work, who is taking the risk, and who is paying for it? I sat down with Sameer Nigam of PhonePe, Harshil Mathur of Razorpay, and Sohini Rajola of NPCI to follow a payment through the system. We draw out the journey between an app, the banks and NPCI, get into why the confirmation on our phone and the settlement between banks are different things, and compare that with what happens when we use a credit card. From rewards and merchant fees to fraud, failed transactions and the cost of handling cash, there is a business behind every way we choose to pay. The conversation also gets into MDR, how the ecosystem funds itself, and what it takes to keep investing in wider access. Then we look ahead: cross-border payments, business payments, wearable rings, digital tipping, and AI agents that might eventually shop and pay for us. The guests disagree on how quickly that future arrives, especially in India. If you were starting a payments business today, which problem would you try to solve? Watch the full conversation and tell me below. Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction 02:23 Sohini Rajola: Her journey and NPCI's role 09:40 Banks, fintechs and digital banking 14:11 Harshil Mathur: The problem that led to Razorpay 20:36 Sameer Nigam: His journey before PhonePe 24:08 Why young Indians want to leave 30:28 UPI's early builders and the cost of overregulation 43:16 Flipkart's payment failures and the birth of PhonePe 52:02 How a UPI payment actually works 59:06 If UPI is free, who pays for it? 1:05:26 Instant payments vs bank settlement 1:08:24 Stablecoins, CBDCs and the future of money 1:14:52 Wealth inequality, inheritance and capital gains 1:17:11 The zero-MDR debate: Funding the payments ecosystem 1:21:31 Should UPI apps have market-share caps? 1:33:08 Can new banks and startups compete in India? 1:41:18 How card and merchant payments work 1:49:39 Credit-card rewards and RuPay on UPI 1:54:12 How Razorpay improved online payments 2:02:08 The B2B payments opportunity 2:05:36 Building payments for medical tourism 2:09:54 Why digital tipping is still unsolved 2:16:01 What payment data reveals about India's consumers 2:21:22 Trust and India's next wave of online shoppers 2:26:07 GST, consumption and property taxes 2:31:38 Affordable food, quality and accountability 2:37:55 Cash vs digital: Measuring India's spending 2:42:20 B2B payments, merchant data and access to credit 2:44:31 Stablecoins, cross-border transfers and capital controls 2:51:59 Will AI agents change how we shop and pay? 2:57:57 Is AI in a bubble? 3:03:01 AI costs, productivity and human work 3:08:59 What should young founders build for AI commerce? 3:16:01 Who benefits from AI? Business and investment opportunities 3:24:31 Meet the builders: Seven, Dodo Payments and PayGlocal 3:26:46 How cross-border payments and merchant-of-record models work 3:34:55 Stablecoins and CBDCs: Speed, trust and regulation 3:39:20 The founders' view on competition and market share 3:41:31 Seven's payment rings: Cashback, revenue and adoption 3:47:20 Medical tourism and other cross-border opportunities 3:51:07 Tap-to-pay, tipping and the future of wearables 3:53:48 Cheaper AI and the pace of agentic commerce 3:56:47 Fraud, trust and safeguards for AI payments 3:59:18 Final advice for young fintech founders Sohini Rajola- Executive Director Growth at the National Payments Corporation of India. Linkedin:https://www.linkedin.com/in/sohinirajola/ Sameer Nigam- Founder and CEO of PhonePE Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sanigam/ Harshil Mathur: Co-founder and CEO of Razorpay Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/harshilmathur/ Also featuring perspectives from Vijay Khubchandani, Founder & CEO, Seven LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vijaykhubchandani/ Prachi Dharani, Co-Founder & CEO, PayGlocal LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/prachi-dharani-94530a9/ Yogesh Lokhande, Co-Founder, PayGlocal LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/yogesh-lokhande-b760522/ Ayush Agarwal, Co-Founder & CPTO, Dodo Payments LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aagarwal1012/ Nikhil Kamath-Co-founder of Zerodha and Gruhas Host of 'WTF is' & 'People By WTF' Podcast Twitter: https://x.com/nikhilkamathcio/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nikhilkamathcio/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nikhilkamathcio?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=ios_app Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/nikhilkamathcio/ Watch 'WTF Online' on Spotify https://tinyurl.com/4tjua4th #WTFiswithNikhilKamath #PeopleByWTF #WTFOnline
SPEAKERS
Nikhil Kamath
hostCo-founder of Zerodha and host of “WTF is with Nikhil Kamath”.
Sohini Rajola
guestLeads growth at NPCI, working on UPI and India’s digital payments ecosystem.
Harshil Mathur
guestCo-founder of Razorpay, an Indian payments and fintech infrastructure company.
Vijay Khubchandani
cameoFounder and CEO of Seven, focused on wearable NFC payments (smart rings).
Ayush Agarwal
cameoCo-founder (CPTU) at Dodo Payments, helping digital businesses monetize globally.
Prachi Dharani
cameoCo-founder and CEO of PayGlocal Technologies (cross-border payments).
Yogesh Lokhande
cameoCTO and co-founder at PayGlocal Technologies.
EPISODE SUMMARY
In this episode of Nikhil Kamath, featuring Nikhil Kamath and Sohini Rajola, If UPI Is Free, Who Pays for It? | PhonePe, Razorpay & NPCI | WTF is Payments? explores inside UPI’s “free” payments: costs, rails, regulation, and what’s next The episode traces how India’s payments ecosystem evolved into UPI and unpacks who pays the real costs when consumers experience UPI as ‘free.’
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