Martin Escobari: Trauma, Chaos & Three Industries Worth $100B | Nikhil Kamath | People by WTF

1. 0:00 – 5:14

   Introduction

   1. NKNikhil Kamath0:00

      [upbeat music] [water sloshing] [graphic popping] [siren wailing]

   2. SPSpeaker0:14

      What did you do in New York before the Martin Escobari episode?

   3. NKNikhil Kamath0:17

      I caught up with some kids from Columbia University, eclectic kids, some from Brazil, some from a bunch of really interesting different places. Next question: What scares you today about the future?

   4. SPSpeaker0:35

      I love this question.

   5. NKNikhil Kamath0:36

      [laughs] Would you like to take it?

   6. SPSpeaker0:39

      Yeah.

   7. SPSpeaker0:39

      I mean, for me, again, the uncertainty is something that I am very scared of. Like, as of today, I think I have a stable job after my school, and, like, touch wood, probably I'll pay [laughs] my tuition fee back. But again, I don't know whether the space that I'm going in is the right space because I don't exactly know what's changing in the future. So that's one thing that I'm scared about.

   8. SPSpeaker1:05

      Um, I would say I'm scared of a world where countries are less friendly to each other. Um, I think that... I'm from South Africa, as I said before, and you know, we were just in South Africa recently on a trip with, meeting with business leaders, and they were telling us all these collaborations they have with American companies. So I really think that that kind of collaboration is what makes the world a better place. It's what makes all of us better off. Um, so I'm really afraid of where the world is going, uh, where countries are becoming more insular.

   9. NKNikhil Kamath1:37

      Would you like to go next?

   10. SPSpeaker1:38

       Yeah. I mean, I think for me, I worry most about climate change, and I worry about rising inequality.

   11. NKNikhil Kamath1:42

       Mm.

   12. SPSpeaker1:42

       Um, I think the sentiments you're expressing, I'm very worried about, but to me, part, part of the root cause is rising inequality, and those two things, coming from a society that had really extreme inequality, um, your social health, your quality of life, in some ways, is much, much worse as a result of living in a society where people have some- a small minority has a lot, and the majority has very little. It makes me concerned about how well I can live here in the long term.

   13. SPSpeaker2:13

       No, what scares me the most, and, and I think everyone said very similar things, um, is that our current leaders do not have a moral compass. And our leaders should collectively, um, be pushing back on some of the things that have happened in the past years, um, and that there is no moral obligation, it seems like, anymore, and I find that to be a real disappointment, um, not only in this country, but globally. And we should look to our current leaders and say, and hold them accountable. Like, "What are you, [laughs] what are you doing?" [laughs] And so, um, that's kind of what I'm scared of.

   14. SPSpeaker2:57

       Hmm. But Nikhil, what are you scared of?

   15. SPSpeaker2:59

       [laughs]

   16. NKNikhil Kamath3:00

       Yeah. [laughs] I think the, the world feels like it's breaking. [upbeat music] Two hot wars. Trade is collapsing. The rules that held the world together for 80 years are being rewritten. This is a conversation about survival, not the survival of a startup, but the survival of an entire generation. Martin Escobari knows what chaos looks like. He grew up in Bolivia in the 1980s. 35,000% inflation, eleven presidents in 10 years. His family lost everything in a revolution. He moved to Brazil, built through crisis, studied what separates great companies from the ones that don't make it. Martin is the Co-President of General Atlantic, one of the largest growth equity funds in the world. Later, I bring in Aryan. He's 21, grew up in Mumbai, cold emailed Sam Altman, got a meeting, moved to SF, started a company. I wanted to put them together and ask two questions. Let's start with the most important question. One personal: What does it take to survive chaos? Can it be taught? And one for India. We have a billion and a half people, more engineers than anywhere, more capital than before. Why have we never produced a truly global company? What's broken, and what would it take to fix it? [upbeat music] Scott?

   17. SPSpeaker4:45

       Yeah. All right. Um, let's do it.

   18. NKNikhil Kamath4:54

       How do I say your name? Is it Martin or Martin?

   19. MEMartin Escobari5:07

       Martin.

   20. NKNikhil Kamath5:08

       Martin.

   21. MEMartin Escobari5:09

       In India, they call me Martin, but you should call me Martin. [laughs]

   22. NKNikhil Kamath5:13

       [laughs]

2. 5:14 – 8:22

   Engineering a happy life

   1. NKNikhil Kamath5:14

      Have you ever gotten into trouble for your last name, through an airport maybe?

   2. MEMartin Escobari5:17

      Oh, many a time.

   3. NKNikhil Kamath5:18

      Yeah?

   4. MEMartin Escobari5:19

      N- not... [laughs]

   5. NKNikhil Kamath5:21

      [laughs]

   6. MEMartin Escobari5:25

      So it's Escobar and Escobari are different last names.

   7. NKNikhil Kamath5:29

      Right.

   8. MEMartin Escobari5:29

      Uh, one time, when, uh, an immigration officer of a country I, that I will not disclose said, "Are you related to Pablo?" And I corrected him that it's a completely different person.

   9. NKNikhil Kamath5:41

      Right.

   10. MEMartin Escobari5:41

       He didn't think that was funny, and so he sent me to the little room. [laughs] Two hours later, I was fine. [laughs]

   11. NKNikhil Kamath5:48

       How are you such a happy person? What is going on?

   12. MEMartin Escobari5:51

       How am I such a happy person? Life is too short, so I don't take myself too seriously. I take my work very seriously. I take my family life very serious, but I don't take myself very seriously And, uh, I try to enjoy every second. We have so few.

   13. NKNikhil Kamath6:10

       Mm. Has this been the case for a long time, or is this a revelation you had at some point in time?

   14. MEMartin Escobari6:16

       It's gotten better over time, and I have to credit my wife. She's a happy person, very happy.

   15. NKNikhil Kamath6:24

       I heard or read a very interesting story of how you met your wife. Would you like to start with that?

   16. MEMartin Escobari6:32

       I'm Bolivian. I was at Harvard getting my business s- school degree, and I decided I wanted to go work outside the US. The US felt too competitive. It's large, but very competitive. And I said, "I want a country that's large, I want there not to be a lot of competition, and I want there to be beautiful people," because I'm, uh, I'm, uh... I wanted to get married.

   17. NKNikhil Kamath6:57

       Right.

   18. MEMartin Escobari6:57

       Uh, Brazil, top of the list. So I get a job offer with the number one private equity group in Brazil, the 3G guys. They own Anheuser-Busch.

   19. NKNikhil Kamath7:06

       Yes.

   20. MEMartin Escobari7:06

       They own Burger King. They're an amazing group of people.

   21. NKNikhil Kamath7:09

       Yes.

   22. MEMartin Escobari7:09

       But they made a condition for my hiring, which is I learned s- Portuguese. And I said, "Will you pay for it?" And they said, "Of course." So I call my Brazilian friends and says, "Find me a beautiful, smart Brazilian PhD or master's students, and tell her I will pay her to talk to me."

   23. NKNikhil Kamath7:27

       Wow.

   24. MEMartin Escobari7:28

       And, uh, that first class-

   25. NKNikhil Kamath7:30

       Mm-hmm

   26. MEMartin Escobari7:32

       ... it was... it actually was an environment like this.

   27. NKNikhil Kamath7:33

       Yeah.

   28. MEMartin Escobari7:33

       It was a well-lit environment. We looked in each eyes. I was, like, smitten. I get home. My best friend is Danish.

   29. NKNikhil Kamath7:39

       Mm-hmm.

   30. MEMartin Escobari7:39

       His name's Lars. He looks at me and he says, "What's going on?" And I said, "I met a really beautiful person."
3. 8:22 – 12:19

   Surviving Bolivia’s hyperinflation

   1. MEMartin Escobari8:22

      and a happy person.

   2. NKNikhil Kamath8:24

      How, how is Bolivia, Martin, to live in? How is Brazil? How is Bolivia? I've never been to either of these countries. How is life like there?

   3. MEMartin Escobari8:34

      Very different. So Bolivia in the '80s, Santa Cruz de la Sierra in the '80s was a tough place. I mean, America is freaking out about 5% inflation. In the '80s, we had 35,000% inflation. We had... In a 10-year period, we had 11 presidents. We had three coups d'états, uh, drug violence. Uh, it was a very, very tough place to, to, to grow up. Bolivia is a, i- is a divided country, um, very unequal country, uh, but one with natural beauty, gorgeous people. But my experience growing up in the '80s was e- was an experience of living in chaos. Uh, Brazil, which I arrive in my 20s, um, soon followed my, my beautiful Portuguese teacher, who became eventually my wife three years later, uh, is a happy place. Maybe that also has to do with me becoming happy. It's not just Daniela. Brazil has a happy vibe. I like to say Br- United States is like a salad bowl. They're all here, but they are Irish American, Indian American. In Brazilian, we're... We, and I say we because I bec- I, I identify as Brazilian. I became a Brazilian citizen. I dream in Portuguese. I- it's more of a soup, all the vegetables kind of fused together. [laughs]

   4. NKNikhil Kamath10:03

      What is Brazil's GDP per capita? I know India is about 3,000. Yeah, you-

   5. MEMartin Escobari10:07

      It's, it's... I'm gonna get it wrong, but 7 to $8,000.

   6. NKNikhil Kamath10:10

      Right. I was going to come to this question later, but because you've been investing for as long as you have, what changes in an economy when GDP per capita crosses three, and then what changes when it crosses $5,000 per capita?

   7. MEMartin Escobari10:30

      First, in the three to five, consumption explodes, and I know you're big in consumption, and you've got your incubator, and I love that.

   8. NKNikhil Kamath10:40

      Mm.

   9. MEMartin Escobari10:40

      Right on. We're there with you. We're... Consumer is a big part.

   10. NKNikhil Kamath10:44

       Yeah.

   11. MEMartin Escobari10:44

       From five to 10, healthcare and education explodes.

   12. NKNikhil Kamath10:49

       Mm.

   13. MEMartin Escobari10:49

       Because once you've got your refrigerator, once you've got your basic necessities done-

   14. NKNikhil Kamath10:54

       Mm-hmm

   15. MEMartin Escobari10:54

       ... once you're eating the foods you want to eat-

   16. NKNikhil Kamath10:56

       Mm-hmm

   17. MEMartin Escobari10:57

       ... the ultimate luxury is to not have to go to the public system of healthcare. The ultimate luxury is to afford your kid a better chance at becoming an entrepreneur, getting a better education. So you'll see those products, uh, rise further.

   18. NKNikhil Kamath11:12

       And what determines the scale at which this change happens?

   19. MEMartin Escobari11:18

       Good governance. India has it. Heavy investments in infrastructure. The last 10 years have been amazing, uh, for, for, for, for, for, for India. Domestic savings and equity culture. People want to own equity, not a fixed income, uh, culture. And perhaps-

   20. NKNikhil Kamath11:39

       How do you inculcate that?

   21. MEMartin Escobari11:41

       Role models. People who come from the bottom without cutting corners, build amazing businesses, and build wonderful lives, and they're not afraid to talk about it.

   22. NKNikhil Kamath11:56

       Yeah.

   23. MEMartin Escobari11:56

       And they come on your podcast, and they share that story.

   24. NKNikhil Kamath11:59

       Yeah.

   25. MEMartin Escobari11:59

       And that motivates a whole generation of kids that says, "No, I don't wanna go work for a multinational. I don't wanna go work for the government. I want to take risk- Because I will be rewarded with a wonderful life and have the, the pride of having built something that impacts the world in a positive way. So it's beautiful to see.

4. 12:19 – 20:17

   Trauma as the engine behind every entrepreneur

   1. MEMartin Escobari12:19

      It's happening in India, it's happening in Indonesia, it's happening in Mexico, it's happening in Brazil

   2. NKNikhil Kamath12:23

      I think there's something similar between an entrepreneur and a gangster.

   3. MEMartin Escobari12:29

      Huh. [laughs]

   4. NKNikhil Kamath12:31

      So few of them make it. So many die early. The odds of success are so low. Gangsters are celebrated via Hollywood, Bollywood in my case, and entrepreneurs via podcasts like mine.

   5. MEMartin Escobari12:50

      So you're the Bollywood of entrepreneurship.

   6. NKNikhil Kamath12:52

      [laughs]

   7. MEMartin Escobari12:52

      Now I understand your business model. [laughs]

   8. NKNikhil Kamath12:57

      I, I wish it was a bit more of a business. Not yet, but maybe someday.

   9. MEMartin Escobari13:02

      Maybe it doesn't need to be a business.

   10. NKNikhil Kamath13:03

       Yeah, I think so.

   11. MEMartin Escobari13:04

       The best things are not businesses. Oh, thank you very much.

   12. NKNikhil Kamath13:08

       I agree with that. I think the most fun things in life cannot start out with the sole intent of making money.

   13. MEMartin Escobari13:18

       Yeah. That's a question I always ask my entrepreneurs, "Why are you doing this?"

   14. NKNikhil Kamath13:24

       Mm.

   15. MEMartin Escobari13:25

       "Why is this meaningful to you?" If the answer is, "I wanna be rich"-

   16. NKNikhil Kamath13:31

       Mm-hmm

   17. MEMartin Escobari13:31

       ... that's a lot less size... satisfying question than, "I wanna change healthcare in India."

   18. NKNikhil Kamath13:37

       Mm.

   19. MEMartin Escobari13:37

       "I wanna be... bring affordable products to households in third-tier cities. I want to bring efficiency to the financial sector and digital inclusion." Those answers, a lot more resilient.

   20. NKNikhil Kamath13:49

       And what if I were to ask why again? Why do you want to bring healthcare? Why do you want to do that?

   21. MEMartin Escobari13:54

       Then when you get to the foundational story.

   22. NKNikhil Kamath13:56

       Which is?

   23. MEMartin Escobari13:57

       Your trauma.

   24. NKNikhil Kamath13:58

       Hmm. Everyone seeking validation and, and attention in one way or another?

   25. MEMartin Escobari14:07

       No, not necessarily. Um, this is a controversial position that I have-

   26. NKNikhil Kamath14:12

       Mm

   27. MEMartin Escobari14:12

       ... based on entirely on empirical evidence. Uh, through my work and through my not-for-profit activities, met thousands-

   28. NKNikhil Kamath14:21

       Mm-hmm

   29. MEMartin Escobari14:21

       ... of entrepreneurs. Hundreds, no, thousands that are successful. The journey of an entrepreneur is so hard because, like the gangsters, so many die.

   30. NKNikhil Kamath14:33

       Yeah.
5. 20:17 – 25:31

   Built-for-turbulence companies and spear fishing the storm

   1. MEMartin Escobari20:17

      So when my internet company almost died, 'cause the internet, you're too young.

   2. NKNikhil Kamath20:22

      I was alive at, in the 2000s, I was there.

   3. MEMartin Escobari20:24

      But you weren't-

   4. NKNikhil Kamath20:25

      Yeah

   5. MEMartin Escobari20:25

      ... an entrepreneur at the time.

   6. NKNikhil Kamath20:27

      Yeah.

   7. MEMartin Escobari20:27

      Uh, so the, in the valley of death-

   8. NKNikhil Kamath20:30

      Mm-hmm

   9. MEMartin Escobari20:30

      ... in the moment of disbelief-

   10. NKNikhil Kamath20:31

       Mm-hmm

   11. MEMartin Escobari20:32

       ... um, I lost faith-

   12. NKNikhil Kamath20:36

       Mm-hmm

   13. MEMartin Escobari20:37

       ... in my ability to create in the emerging markets. I thought Brazil is too hard.

   14. NKNikhil Kamath20:44

       Mm-hmm.

   15. MEMartin Escobari20:45

       And I thought about giving up.

   16. NKNikhil Kamath20:46

       Mm-hmm.

   17. MEMartin Escobari20:47

       But I'm a nerd at heart.

   18. NKNikhil Kamath20:48

       Mm.

   19. MEMartin Escobari20:49

       And I said, "How about I study this?" Because if I look around, there are some people that have made it in Brazil. I go jogging in the Jardins. There are beautiful houses with very nice, happy-looking people, uh, that are, have done very well for themselves. So I partner with my tutor from, uh, Winthrop House at Harvard, and we wrote a book, which, um, it's, it's, it's called Paired Company Analysis.

   20. NKNikhil Kamath21:14

       Mm-hmm.

   21. MEMartin Escobari21:15

       Uh, it's a little bit like genetics, where when you, the question of is it biology or is it the environment, you look at twins separated at birth-

   22. NKNikhil Kamath21:22

       Mm-hmm

   23. MEMartin Escobari21:22

       ... uh, uh, lived separate lives and-

   24. NKNikhil Kamath21:24

       What do you think?

   25. MEMartin Escobari21:25

       Huh?

   26. NKNikhil Kamath21:25

       What do you think?

   27. MEMartin Escobari21:26

       It's both.

   28. NKNikhil Kamath21:26

       Nature or nurture?

   29. MEMartin Escobari21:27

       It's both. 50/50, of course. [laughs] Eh, so we chose 10 companies-

   30. NKNikhil Kamath21:36

       Mm-hmm
6. 25:31 – 31:00

   Is America still worth the journey, and what is wealth for

   1. NKNikhil Kamath25:31

      Then why, why is America as expensive as it is?

   2. MEMartin Escobari25:38

      There's very good reasons to buy America.

   3. NKNikhil Kamath25:40

      Which is?

   4. MEMartin Escobari25:40

      It's, it's the most innovative economy in the world, self-sufficient. Pax Americana has produced a system of world trade and finance where the US is, is the captain, and it still attracts the world's brightest and most ambitious people in the world. Half the unicorn founders are foreign-born, but choose this country because in this country they believe they can be, uh, successful. International applications to the elite universities in the United States are down 20%.

   5. NKNikhil Kamath26:06

      Hmm.

   6. MEMartin Escobari26:07

      That is a leading indicator of losing some of what made you great.

   7. NKNikhil Kamath26:13

      Hmm.

   8. MEMartin Escobari26:13

      Uh, I think it's temporary. I think we're living through a moment of adjustment. Um, some of the adjustments hopefully will lead to fairer trade, a safer Europe, uh, more balanced and diverse viewpoints in universities, but this moment of adjustment is one of great angst and anxiety.

   9. NKNikhil Kamath26:34

      Hmm. Because you guys are from different places, has the attractiveness of America gone down in the last three months or up?

   10. SPSpeaker26:44

       [laughs]

   11. SPSpeaker26:45

       I, I think totally. I think that, um, I know a lot of my friends from South Africa who were very excited to come and study in the United States, and I think there's a- an uncertainty that exists in the air right now that makes it really difficult to invest your entire future in a country where not only you're unsure what is going to happen in terms of your own outcomes post your degree, but there's a almost a certain sense that perhaps you're unwanted. Um, and that's difficult, right? And in a world that is still competitive for international talent, I think a lot of my friends are thinking, "What if I go and study in Canada? What if I go and study in the UK?"

   12. NKNikhil Kamath27:24

       You gave me a book earlier today about Chuck Feeney. Tell us a bit about him.

   13. MEMartin Escobari27:30

       So Chuck was a Navy man.

   14. NKNikhil Kamath27:33

       Hmm.

   15. MEMartin Escobari27:34

       He, uh, served in the US Navy and, uh, while serving I think the Korea War, he observed something very unusual, which is very rich commerce happening at the Navy bases of the US and the Pacific.

   16. NKNikhil Kamath27:51

       Hmm.

   17. MEMartin Escobari27:52

       Because these bases-

   18. NKNikhil Kamath27:53

       Mm-hmm

   19. MEMartin Escobari27:54

       ... were not Philippines or Vietnam, but they were not America either, so there was tax-free trade.

   20. NKNikhil Kamath28:00

       Mm-hmm.

   21. MEMartin Escobari28:01

       And he says, "We can do this in airports."

   22. NKNikhil Kamath28:04

       Hmm.

   23. MEMartin Escobari28:05

       And he's one of the pioneers of the duty-free industry.

   24. NKNikhil Kamath28:07

       Yeah.

   25. MEMartin Escobari28:08

       Creates a business called World Duty Free, which he sells to, uh, Louis Vuitton Group, uh, for a couple billion.

   26. NKNikhil Kamath28:15

       Yeah.

   27. MEMartin Escobari28:16

       And he's confronted with a wealth that he never thought.

   28. NKNikhil Kamath28:21

       Hmm.

   29. MEMartin Escobari28:22

       I'm sure you went through this. Uh, and he's like, "What is the purpose of my wealth?" And his answer is a beautiful answer. He says, "The purpose of my wealth is to improve the human condition today, not tomorrow."

   30. NKNikhil Kamath28:36

       Mm-hmm.
7. 31:00 – 37:19

   Capitalism, communism, and learning to think critically

   1. NKNikhil Kamath31:00

      Often, when Confucius is cited in society, we're on the precipice of changing from a capitalistic world to some form of socialism and communism. And like you spoke about Bolivia earlier, unequal divided societies like we see today also very often lead to some form of socialism or cap- or communism. You think the world is there now?

   2. MEMartin Escobari31:31

      I think in a s-

   3. NKNikhil Kamath31:33

      And we all have amnesia. We, we didn't grow up in Bolivia. We have never seen it. We've read about it in books.

   4. MEMartin Escobari31:39

      Yeah. Uh, my crystal ball is not perfect, but, um, extreme inequality, in my book, leads to either revolution or taxation.

   5. NKNikhil Kamath31:53

      Extreme taxation in turn also leads to revolution.

   6. MEMartin Escobari31:56

      Potentially. Uh, we're not there yet. Uh, so I, I think we do face that dilemma. And by taxation, it... There are different... Trust busting by Roosevelt was a form of taxation.

   7. NKNikhil Kamath32:08

      Mm-hmm.

   8. MEMartin Escobari32:09

      I- it's major restructuring of the rules of the game for leveling a little bit.

   9. SPSpeaker32:13

      Um, I would say I'm scared of a world where countries are less friendly to each other.

   10. NKNikhil Kamath32:18

       Who do you blame that on, if you had to?

   11. SPSpeaker32:21

       Um, I think it has to do-

   12. NKNikhil Kamath32:22

       It doesn't have to be a person. It could be an idea.

   13. SPSpeaker32:24

       Yeah, I'd say it's a phenomenon.

   14. NKNikhil Kamath32:25

       Yeah.

   15. SPSpeaker32:25

       I think it's a phenomenon to do with just, like, economic instability and inequality. I think that people are looking for someone to blame, as they've been seeing, uh, kind of other people get richer and themselves being left out. Uh, technology particularly has left out a lot of people. And so as a result, people are kind of like, "Is it immigration? Is it all these other countries?" And so as a result, they're, they're, they're rebuking, and I think that they're electing leaders who, uh, kind of know and recognize that.

   16. SPSpeaker32:57

       Yeah, I mean, I think the-

   17. NKNikhil Kamath32:59

       It's likely

   18. SPSpeaker32:59

       ... the pushback part is why I think a-

   19. NKNikhil Kamath33:03

       Yeah

   20. SPSpeaker33:03

       ... direction, a turn towards something medieval or feudalistic is just as likely as a turn towards something socialist.

   21. SPSpeaker33:08

       Yeah

   22. SPSpeaker33:08

       Because there are interests that have a lot of power. There are corporations-

   23. SPSpeaker33:11

       Yeah

   24. SPSpeaker33:11

       ... and there are people that have... uh, that are very invested in the system continuing to be as it is-

   25. SPSpeaker33:17

       Yeah

   26. SPSpeaker33:17

       ... or escalating to an even more unequal place.

   27. SPSpeaker33:20

       Yeah.

   28. SPSpeaker33:21

       And I think it's very hard to overcome that.

   29. SPSpeaker33:24

       Yeah.

   30. SPSpeaker33:24

       Um, so I, I personally really... I... Sorry. I really worry about-
8. 37:19 – 43:02

   Submarino, the IPO crash, and the India that almost was

   1. MEMartin Escobari37:19

      Spent two years in New York working in consulting.

   2. NKNikhil Kamath37:21

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MEMartin Escobari37:22

      Then I went to business school, uh, also at Harvard, and decided I wanted to go into investing-

   4. NKNikhil Kamath37:29

      Mm-hmm

   5. MEMartin Escobari37:29

      ... and, in Brazil, and that's how I landed in, in Brazil with my girlfriend at the time and, and-

   6. NKNikhil Kamath37:36

      Is it the Spanish teacher still?

   7. MEMartin Escobari37:38

      Portuguese teacher.

   8. NKNikhil Kamath37:39

      Portuguese teacher still?

   9. MEMartin Escobari37:40

      Yes.

   10. NKNikhil Kamath37:41

       Okay.

   11. MEMartin Escobari37:42

       28 years together.

   12. NKNikhil Kamath37:43

       How long did you date before you were married?

   13. MEMartin Escobari37:44

       Three years.

   14. NKNikhil Kamath37:45

       Okay.

   15. MEMartin Escobari37:46

       I know you're not married.

   16. NKNikhil Kamath37:48

       Yeah. [laughs]

   17. MEMartin Escobari37:49

       Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a voice from the future.

   18. NKNikhil Kamath37:51

       Yeah. Maybe I need to learn Spanish.

   19. MEMartin Escobari37:53

       [laughs]

   20. NKNikhil Kamath37:54

       You know someone? [laughs]

   21. MEMartin Escobari37:55

       I recommend Portuguese.

   22. NKNikhil Kamath37:57

       [laughs]

   23. MEMartin Escobari37:57

       But you can also learn Spanish. Uh, let me give you the case-

   24. NKNikhil Kamath38:02

       Mm-hmm

   25. MEMartin Escobari38:02

       ... for marriage.

   26. NKNikhil Kamath38:03

       Yeah.

   27. MEMartin Escobari38:05

       Uh, let's say your life is an adventure.

   28. NKNikhil Kamath38:07

       Mm-hmm.

   29. MEMartin Escobari38:09

       And you, you decide to make your life an adventure.

   30. NKNikhil Kamath38:10

       Yeah.
9. 43:02 – 51:18

   Aryan’s story: cold-emailing Sam Altman from Mumbai

   1. NKNikhil Kamath43:03

      from India. Moved to the Valley, started a company in AI, and I thought you could teach both of us together. So he will ask you what makes sense from the lens of a 20-year-old, and I'll ask you what makes sense from a 39, because I still don't want to say 40. I have a few months left.

   2. MEMartin Escobari43:22

      [laughs]

   3. NKNikhil Kamath43:23

      [laughs]

   4. MEMartin Escobari43:24

      Enjoy them. [laughs]

   5. NKNikhil Kamath43:26

      [laughs] Another thing about Aryan, this is my personal agenda coming in again, and Aryan has an issue. He told me the last time I saw him, he's finding it hard to communicate with girls. I think it's a problem with society today, because everybody's so hooked onto their devices. And I thought, "Why not make Aryan popular-

   6. MEMartin Escobari43:52

      [laughs]

   7. NKNikhil Kamath43:52

      ... and see what changes in his personal life?"

   8. MEMartin Escobari43:55

      [laughs]

   9. NKNikhil Kamath43:57

      So this will be interesting. So I'm gonna call Aryan in, and then you teach both of us, and we will ask you questions from a 20-year-old and a 40-year-old's lens. [laughs]

   10. MEMartin Escobari44:08

       Hi. Hi, Aryan.

   11. NKNikhil Kamath44:10

       [laughs]

   12. MEMartin Escobari44:10

       Nice to meet you.

   13. NKNikhil Kamath44:13

       So Aryan, let's start with the most important question. Since the last time we spoke, what has happened to your dating life?

   14. MEMartin Escobari44:26

       [laughs]

   15. ARAryan44:29

       And this is all gonna be public now?

   16. NKNikhil Kamath44:30

       Yeah.

   17. ARAryan44:33

       Yeah.

   18. NKNikhil Kamath44:33

       You're building a strategy background-

   19. ARAryan44:35

       Yeah

   20. NKNikhil Kamath44:35

       ... right? Like, how to approach it.

   21. ARAryan44:37

       I- I'll- I'll start with the problems.

   22. NKNikhil Kamath44:39

       Yeah.

   23. ARAryan44:39

       Um, and it's, it's not huge problems, but these are what I feel are problems. Uh, and this is also... I... This... If it goes public, then I've never spoken to my parents about this, so this is how everyone finds out. Um, I think... And this is partly a San Francisco problem. I think New York is a little bit different. Um, but, like... And this is a controversy, too. People debate this a lot. But, uh, I feel like people around me, m- plus, minus two years, um-

   24. NKNikhil Kamath45:09

       You're 21 now

   25. ARAryan45:10

       ... yeah, um, are not... Like, in, in San Francisco specifically, I think the culture of doing things and, and like, uh, going out, and, uh, being, like, open to being approached and open to approaching is not, uh, what it used to be, at least from what I hear. Uh, and so even if you want to go approach people, or if, if you are interested in dating or, like, engaging in, in, like, a social life, it's not very easy to do it in that s- in that part of the world. I think it helps when you don't think... I think the, the, the biggest thing is just the eight seconds of courage thing. You just do it when you think of it. If you think more than eight seconds, you're not going to do it. Um, and so-

   26. NKNikhil Kamath45:57

       Where do you read this?

   27. ARAryan45:59

       I, I, I mo- more... This, this was some- somewhere. [laughs]

   28. NKNikhil Kamath46:03

       [laughs]

   29. ARAryan46:04

       And, and then, and like, I, I actually went to Brazil, which was-

   30. NKNikhil Kamath46:07

       There, I did not help.
10. 51:18 – 1:01:53

    The four mega-trends and where to put 100 billion

    1. NKNikhil Kamath51:18

       So you are my co-host today. We are both going to ask Martin questions, you from your lens, me from mine. So if you had 100 billion and you had a blank slate, Martin is starting afresh. Okay, no baggage from anything you did historically. Where the world sits today, at the valuations of today, you have to allocate the 100 billion, and you can only pick three industries.

    2. ARAryan51:46

       Okay.

    3. NKNikhil Kamath51:46

       What would they be and why?

    4. ARAryan51:48

       The Martin Vision Fund.

    5. MEMartin Escobari51:49

       The Martin Vision... But not the vision fund. [laughs]

    6. NKNikhil Kamath51:53

       [laughs]

    7. MEMartin Escobari51:54

       Uh, listen, I think there are four major waves transforming our world. Transition to a digital economy turbocharged by AI.

    8. NKNikhil Kamath52:05

       Okay.

    9. MEMartin Escobari52:05

       This is the biggest tsunami. The transition to digital is a 25-year wave. AI is a five-year wave. They're one building on each other, and that is fantastic. The second wave is the transformation of the healthcare sector.

    10. NKNikhil Kamath52:19

        Mm-hmm.

    11. MEMartin Escobari52:19

        Increasing capacity in the south, and healthcare innovation to contain cost and treat the untreatable diseases in the West.

    12. NKNikhil Kamath52:28

        Also, like, export healthcare, in a way.

    13. MEMartin Escobari52:30

        The third is, uh, energy transition away from fossil fuels. Um, and if we needed a reminder of how fragile our dependence on fossil fuels, forget global warming, think Suez. And the fourth one is the rise of the new consumer in the South. Uh, I think for the next 10, 20 years, these four forces will generate tremendous opportunity for anybody who wants to be an entrepreneur.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath52:58

        When you say new consumer in the global south, what do you-

    15. MEMartin Escobari53:00

        It's your question, what, what happens to consumption-

    16. NKNikhil Kamath53:02

        Mm

    17. MEMartin Escobari53:02

        ... from 3,000 GDP to 5,000 GDP and 8,000 GDP.

    18. NKNikhil Kamath53:06

        Do you suspect those new consumers will buy American products or native to their own countries?

    19. MEMartin Escobari53:11

        It will, it, it will be very, very specific, but the cost of launching a new brand has never been lower. The cost of distributing a new brand has never been lower. So the chances that local champions win have never been higher.

    20. NKNikhil Kamath53:28

        Would you say geopolitical tensions from a multipolar world will have inflation present at a rate higher than our historical past, which in turn leads to different kind of opportunities? The geopolitics will remain complicated for the next 10 years?

    21. MEMartin Escobari53:51

        I think geopolitics will remain complicated.

    22. NKNikhil Kamath53:54

        And who will benefit from that? Which industry?

    23. MEMartin Escobari54:00

        It goes back to what I learned with volatility in Brazil in my book. If you're fit, if you have access to capital, and you can move with agility, all this volatility becomes your friend, and your friends at 3G are experts at this. Whenever there is fear, they are not fearful, and they mobilize capital and resources and smart young people to capture opportunities.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath54:29

        And they kinda go all in, right?

    25. MEMartin Escobari54:30

        They go all in.

    26. NKNikhil Kamath54:32

        They don't do much, but they go all in each time they do.

    27. MEMartin Escobari54:34

        They're very focused, concentrated pos- concentrated bets.

    28. NKNikhil Kamath54:37

        You're also concentrated, but not as much as them.

    29. MEMartin Escobari54:40

        Mu- much less Very different business.

    30. NKNikhil Kamath54:43

        So amongst the trends that you mentioned, Martin, which would you rank as the biggest opportunity if the biggest one were to be one, the second-biggest one were to be two, and then three and four?
11. 1:01:53 – 1:10:25

    Why India has never built a global company

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:01:53

       gonna come to the burning question of today. Something relevant for India is we have a billion and a half people. We have more engineers than anywhere in the world. Because you've looked at India so closely, why do we not have a global company that has come out of India?

    2. SPSpeaker1:02:12

       Ha. Infosys, potentially, you could say is a-

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:02:15

       That's services.

    4. SPSpeaker1:02:17

       Uh, you... A global tech company. I believe-

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:02:20

       Actually, a global any kind of company

    6. SPSpeaker1:02:24

       ... I believe it takes a pioneer to create the role model effect. It can be done. There's access to capital, unfair access to human capital that's AI trained at the right time. Uh, you need the courage to do what has never done before.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:02:45

       Why hasn't it happened, though? We've had this for a long time.

    8. SPSpeaker1:02:48

       I think in, in, in business services, I think the, the, the, the, the BPO companies are relatively global.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath1:02:53

       Mm.

    10. SPSpeaker1:02:53

        Um-

    11. NKNikhil Kamath1:02:56

        They're more like a labor arbitrage industry, which-

    12. SPSpeaker1:02:59

        It's global.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:00

        Hm.

    14. SPSpeaker1:03:01

        Um, your, your capital markets are ready. I, I really believe in the, in the, in the, in the role model effect. If you have one company that does it, it, it gives courage to others.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:13

        Like you have NuBank. Why-

    16. SPSpeaker1:03:16

        It's a multi-country company.

    17. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:17

        Yeah, why, why haven't we had that?

    18. SPSpeaker1:03:20

        Well, you, you, you have Flipkart, you have PhonePe.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:23

        They all sell in India only.

    20. SPSpeaker1:03:25

        Well, India is also 1.3 billion people. You, you, you have the curse of a domestic market, the blessing of a humongous domestic market.

    21. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:36

        Do you think that's what it is? Because they're-

    22. SPSpeaker1:03:38

        It starts with that.

    23. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:39

        Hm.

    24. SPSpeaker1:03:40

        Uh, in... If I asked the same question about Brazil, there, there are very few global... I'm actually very proud that, uh, we have, we have a, a company called Wellhub-

    25. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:52

        Mm-hmm

    26. SPSpeaker1:03:52

        ... which has become a global leader. It's a benefits, wellness benefits corporate plan. App, app-based. You can go to any gym in the world if you... You, you should... You'd see him in your travel.

    27. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:03

        Yeah.

    28. SPSpeaker1:04:03

        I'll, I'll hook you up. Um, he had the courage to move to New York. He had the courage to hire a multi-country team.

    29. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:12

        Mm-hmm.

    30. SPSpeaker1:04:13

        Uh, he had the courage to invest heavily in this international expansion. And I think when it goes public, hopefully, it will be an example that it can be done. It is uncomfortable.
12. 1:10:25 – 1:16:14

    How General Atlantic is built: perpetual capital and pooled bets

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:10:25

       Okay. Some things I find very intriguing about GA is its perpetual capital.

    2. MEMartin Escobari1:10:34

       So we have an unusual fundraising structure where we have standard funds, and that we launch every two, three years. Then we have managed accounts that invest alongside these funds at, that are fundraising at any time. Uh, and then part of these managed accounts are evergreen, so they're always renewing so they can go forever. Uh, the evergreen is innovation because these are people that wanna hold things for longer and are constantly renewing. But this idea of having standard funds and simultaneously have managed accounts have the great advantage, uh, of smoothing out the fundraising cyclicality.

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:11:19

       And you have a common pool where all the partners get paid?

    4. MEMartin Escobari1:11:23

       Yeah, that's a big thing. So, uh, we're the most global of funds. Most of our peers have regional or sectoral funds that are rather independent. Uh, we allocate everything through a central pool. That's super valuable in a volatile world, 'cause you can change your mind and you're not fixed to your boxes. Uh, part of making that work is pooled economics. So when I was running Brazil, my comp wasn't based on what I produced in Brazil. My comp was a percent of the global production, that over time if Brazil did well, uh, would- the percent would go higher, but I'd have no incentive to push Brazil at the expense of other things that were very good.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:12:07

       I interviewed the Anthropic guy last month.

    6. MEMartin Escobari1:12:09

       He's fantastic.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:12:09

       Dario. He's fantastic.

    8. MEMartin Escobari1:12:10

       Dario is, uh, one of my favorite people in the world.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath1:12:12

       Really?

    10. MEMartin Escobari1:12:13

        Yeah, I really like Dario.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath1:12:15

        Why is that?

    12. MEMartin Escobari1:12:16

        He's a biologist.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:12:17

        Yeah.

    14. MEMartin Escobari1:12:18

        He's idealist. He's built an amazing company, and if he does things right, I think history will remember him. Uh, and he's such a humble-

    15. NKNikhil Kamath1:12:32

        Yeah

    16. MEMartin Escobari1:12:33

        ... idealistic person. And young. He's 41. He's your age.

    17. NKNikhil Kamath1:12:38

        Yeah.

    18. MEMartin Escobari1:12:38

        Um, it's, uh... I feel very privileged to have met him and-

    19. NKNikhil Kamath1:12:43

        39. [laughs]

    20. MEMartin Escobari1:12:46

        [laughs]

    21. NKNikhil Kamath1:12:47

        Let me keep it for a few more months. [upbeat music] [upbeat music] So quickly, we have two new friends on the table. I'm gonna give you guys some time to introduce yourself. Maybe Florian, you would like to go first?

    22. SPSpeaker1:13:11

        Sure. Um, so first of all, thank you for inviting me for dinner. Um, I'm Florian, um, Brandt. Um, started out, uh, as an entrepreneur, I guess many moons ago, or like fif- 15 years ago. Um, and due to, I guess, very personal experiences, uh, with m- seeing friends and family members developing very severe mental health disorders and not finding the help or healing that they were looking for, started a, a mental health, um, drug development company, a biotech company, uh, Atai Life Sciences in 2017, 2018, uh, with a goal to really make a true leap forward for mental health patients, uh, that, uh, often, um, to today's medication that is available, um, or also therapy don't, um, respond very well. And-

    23. NKNikhil Kamath1:14:00

        I'm gonna ask you a tough question.

    24. SPSpeaker1:14:02

        Please.

    25. NKNikhil Kamath1:14:02

        Summarize what you do in one line.

    26. SPSpeaker1:14:05

        Uh, I'm, uh, a drug developer.

    27. NKNikhil Kamath1:14:08

        Why do you smile when you say that?

    28. SPSpeaker1:14:10

        Because I guess you could read into this some controversial, uh, things if you want to. Uh, but yeah.

    29. NKNikhil Kamath1:14:15

        Elaborate with another line.

    30. SPSpeaker1:14:16

        That... So, so my passion is really to bring, bring better options, better treatment options to mental health patients.
13. 1:16:14 – 1:24:23

    Manifestation, the 8-second rule, and the checklist for great companies

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:16:14

       [laughs] Not necessarily.

    2. SPSpeaker1:16:16

       So were you? Or-

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:16:17

       Huh?

    4. SPSpeaker1:16:18

       Were you?

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:16:18

       No, of course not.

    6. SPSpeaker1:16:20

       [laughs] Last year I was reading a lot of Jung's work-

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:16:23

       Mm-hmm.

    8. SPSpeaker1:16:23

       Mm

    9. SPSpeaker1:16:23

       ... around synchronicity, and you feel like everything's aligning, and things are working out.

    10. NKNikhil Kamath1:16:30

        Mm-hmm.

    11. SPSpeaker1:16:31

        And then when things start falling in place, similar to what you said, Nikhil, around the fact that now the next worry once things fall in place is to hold it all in place, so then you start to believe in fate.

    12. NKNikhil Kamath1:16:44

        Because?

    13. SPSpeaker1:16:46

        Because should you not, like we talked about in our, in our conversation, should you not, then you worry that it may be taken away from you.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath1:16:55

        By that logic, very successful people should be the most religious of people. That's not often the case, though.

    15. SPSpeaker1:17:03

        Mm. True. But then you can also... One can argue if this is correlation or causal.

    16. NKNikhil Kamath1:17:09

        What do you think is synchronicity according to Jung?

    17. SPSpeaker1:17:12

        According to Jung, synchronicity is w- the, in the spiritual sense, it's when things line up. Like for example, "Oh, you know, I really wanna meet some great private market guy who can give me great advice on how to build a fund." And then I'm walking down the street and I see him, and I'm like, "Are you Martin?" And then he's like, "Yeah, let's have a coffee." That would be synchronicity.

    18. SPSpeaker1:17:34

        Mm. Manifestation.

    19. SPSpeaker1:17:37

        Do you believe in that?

    20. SPSpeaker1:17:39

        Ooh. Uh, I do believe the power of manifestation, in that if you visualize what would you want, you're deciding that what you want, and that's, is more effective than the eight-second rule. You go for it. What's the eight-second rule?

    21. ARAryan1:17:57

        No, we were talking about cold approaching and just saying the most useful framework that I've found is just go do it when you think of it instead of thinking so much.

    22. SPSpeaker1:18:08

        Yep.

    23. ARAryan1:18:11

        The honest answer is I still don't do it as much, so.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath1:18:13

        Hmm.

    25. ARAryan1:18:14

        Doesn't jive-

    26. NKNikhil Kamath1:18:14

        Why not? Is it ego?

    27. ARAryan1:18:16

        No, I think that there is a part of it which is I'm shy, which, uh, i- in, with s- in certain s- social situations. I think these settings I'm very open to talking.

    28. SPSpeaker1:18:25

        That's a generational problem.

    29. ARAryan1:18:26

        No, it's, it's a him problem.

    30. SPSpeaker1:18:27

        I think it's his generation problem.
14. 1:24:23 – 1:28:36

    Failure, dead ends, and the courage to change your mind

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:24:23

       Culturally in, say, Israel for example, they like the fact that somebody tried and failed, or maybe in the US.

    2. MEMartin Escobari1:24:30

       That's-

    3. SPSpeaker1:24:30

       Same holds true for Germany, by the way.

    4. NKNikhil Kamath1:24:32

       Yeah?

    5. MEMartin Escobari1:24:32

       Hmm.

    6. SPSpeaker1:24:32

       I think that is, you know, currently in Europe, but also in Germany, a big, big thing that holds Europe back, you know, the willingness to start and fail, um, kind of try again. There's a huge c- cultural stigma. Um, I didn't know that actually about India.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:24:48

       Yeah.

    8. SPSpeaker1:24:48

       That, that this is actually very, very true there.

    9. NKNikhil Kamath1:24:51

       Do you think that's true, Martin?

    10. SPSpeaker1:24:52

        Yeah.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath1:24:52

        Are you more likely to fund a founder who has failed three times versus someone who has never tried?

    12. MEMartin Escobari1:25:01

        Listen, the, the, the failure creates scars, learnings. How you fail and what you learned determines the answer to your question

    13. SPSpeaker1:25:10

        They have to be-

    14. MEMartin Escobari1:25:10

        Like, if you fail because you cheated on the taxes or you... That is a line that's very hard. Like-

    15. SPSpeaker1:25:16

        Correct

    16. MEMartin Escobari1:25:16

        ... the, there are some mistakes that it's very hard as an investor to forgive, and it goes back to how do we create this positive dynamic? Um, now to how do we change this, is when people like you talk about your failures.

    17. SPSpeaker1:25:32

        Mm-hmm.

    18. MEMartin Escobari1:25:32

        Successful people who talk... On the road to f- success-

    19. SPSpeaker1:25:36

        Yeah

    20. MEMartin Escobari1:25:37

        ... there were failures.

    21. NKNikhil Kamath1:25:38

        Very easy. I have so many. They could all be done. [laughs]

    22. SPSpeaker1:25:40

        Exactly. So you should start. You have 20 million people listening right now. [laughs]

    23. NKNikhil Kamath1:25:43

        No, you know, I have a theory. If I want the youth of India to change one thing, just one thing, is they need to stop thinking that changing their mind is some kind of hypocrisy.

    24. SPSpeaker1:25:59

        Agreed.

    25. MEMartin Escobari1:26:00

        Oh.

    26. SPSpeaker1:26:01

        Agreed.

    27. NKNikhil Kamath1:26:02

        Like, hypocrisy has to move from a bad word to a good word.

    28. MEMartin Escobari1:26:06

        I have a great phrase.

    29. NKNikhil Kamath1:26:07

        Mm-hmm.

    30. MEMartin Escobari1:26:08

        When confronted with new facts, I change my mind.
15. 1:28:36 – 1:33:44

    The venture-to-IPO value chain, monopolies, and young revolutionaries

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:28:36

       If Aryan were to start a company today, and he comes to Andy, you put a certain amount of money, you buy 20% of Aryan's company. Then you take Aryan to private equity.

    2. SPSpeaker1:28:51

       Mm.

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:28:52

       Martin puts in a little bit more money-

    4. SPSpeaker1:28:56

       Into the-

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:28:56

       ... and takes 30% of the company. Now Aryan is left with less. This happens a couple of times over and over again, and when you all are done making money, you come to my market, the public market, and you offload really expensive price to market equity on unsuspecting people like me and colleagues of mine who are in the retail ecosystems in public markets. Do you think that's fair? I think it's happening with AI right now. That's why I'm asking.

    6. SPSpeaker1:29:33

       I don't know if it's fair, but from a venture side, I took the deal first. I trusted Aryan to say, "I think that kid has something in him. I'm ready to bet on that horse." By the time the horse comes to you, it's won a couple races. Of course the price is gonna be a little jacked up. Whether it's gonna perform again might be the 10th race that breaks the horse. That's my point of view.

    7. MEMartin Escobari1:29:58

       Fair is a tricky word, because we have free will, and the l- further along Aryan is on his journey, the m- less risk we have. There's more we know, there's more data, and if he's gone public, yes, for the successful companies, a little less return, but a lot less risk.

    8. SPSpeaker1:30:19

       Mm-hmm.

    9. MEMartin Escobari1:30:20

       Now, it's very important in any market to have a combination of retail investors and so- very sophisticated institutional investors-

    10. SPSpeaker1:30:31

        Mm-hmm

    11. MEMartin Escobari1:30:31

        ... who have more resources to just make sure he's doing what-

    12. SPSpeaker1:30:35

        Yeah

    13. MEMartin Escobari1:30:35

        ... he's supposed to be doing.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath1:30:37

        No, I presented my question in a certain manner just for effect. I think we need 100 times more risk capital in India.

    15. SPSpeaker1:30:45

        Yes.

    16. NKNikhil Kamath1:30:45

        From people like Martin, from people like Andy.

    17. SPSpeaker1:30:48

        Yes.

    18. NKNikhil Kamath1:30:49

        Florian can bring in German money, and Aryan can move back. [laughs]

    19. SPSpeaker1:30:53

        And then, and then there's Nikhil. What is Nikhil doing in all this? [laughs]

    20. MEMartin Escobari1:30:57

        He's collecting his mark commission

    21. SPSpeaker1:30:59

        [laughs]

    22. MEMartin Escobari1:31:01

        ... to all of it.

    23. SPSpeaker1:31:01

        And, and then the news reads, "Nikhil Kamath brings investment back to India."

    24. MEMartin Escobari1:31:04

        Risk free. He wins in every transaction. [laughs]

    25. NKNikhil Kamath1:31:09

        What, what else, guys? Anything, anyone have an interesting idea they'd like to share?

    26. ARAryan1:31:15

        I was gonna say something on the, the public piece, which is, like, now you don't have to go public, right? Because there's enough money in the private markets. I think that's maybe net negative, um, versus this ... Like, there is a little bit of this dump effect where sometimes companies go public at a, whatever, crazy price, and then over time it'll correct down, and then maybe they build back up, maybe they never go back. Like, the 2021 wave was mostly like that. And, but, but there's also, like, a lot of people who, who would like Stripe, but they probably will never get Stripe. Um, and that trade-off is not ... Like, I think it's ... That's maybe ... I, I don't know what the right answer to that is, but it seems that it's net not great for normal people to not have access to things like Stripe and-

    27. MEMartin Escobari1:32:06

        I agree. Waiting till you're a trillion dollars, like SpaceX, to go public seems like a long time. [laughs]

    28. ARAryan1:32:15

        [laughs]

    29. NKNikhil Kamath1:32:15

        [laughs]

    30. MEMartin Escobari1:32:15

        Your friend, Elon Musk. Um-

Episode duration: 1:33:44