Nikos Christodoulides on Why India Must Lead What Comes Next | Nikhil Kamath | People by WTF

1. 0:00 – 3:07

   Introduction

   1. NKNikhil Kamath0:00

      [upbeat music] Mm-hmm. Can I ask you, how does it feel to be in power? How does it feel to be the president of a country?

   2. NCNikos Christodoulides0:15

      Hmm. [upbeat music]

   3. NKNikhil Kamath0:23

      This conversation was different. Nikos isn't a politician who knows history. He's a historian who became the President of the Republic of Cyprus. [upbeat music] A nation that's the bridge between Europe and the Middle East, which is a wild place to be running a country right now. Just that made him so different from everyone I've spoken to, and made me redefine my idea of what a politician can be. Oh, wow. [upbeat music] And honestly, I think I left with more questions than answers. Hopefully, things like AI will lead us to a point where studying history and philosophy become a lot more relevant all over again.

   4. NCNikos Christodoulides1:18

      I'm a bit concerned with this [sighs] technological, uh, progress. I'm a bit concerned how it's going to be in, uh, 10, 20 years. What is going to happen if AI replaces 80% of the workforce? I hope this is not the scenario, but we're talking-

   5. NKNikhil Kamath1:35

      Yeah. [laughs]

   6. NCNikos Christodoulides1:36

      ... about a future scenario. But they will lose their, their work. How they will react?

   7. NKNikhil Kamath1:42

      Hmm.

   8. NCNikos Christodoulides1:43

      Can I ask you something?

   9. NKNikhil Kamath1:44

      Sure.

   10. NCNikos Christodoulides1:45

       Why you ask for this interview? [upbeat music]

   11. NKNikhil Kamath2:01

       Hmm. Would you like coffee?

   12. NCNikos Christodoulides2:06

       Yes, please. Can I have-

   13. NKNikhil Kamath2:07

       Black coffee?

   14. NCNikos Christodoulides2:08

       ... espresso.

   15. NKNikhil Kamath2:09

       Espresso.

   16. NCNikos Christodoulides2:11

       Take my pills.

   17. NKNikhil Kamath2:12

       How would you like me to address you? Mr. President-

   18. NCNikos Christodoulides2:15

       Nikos.

   19. NKNikhil Kamath2:15

       Nikos?

   20. NCNikos Christodoulides2:16

       Yes.

   21. NKNikhil Kamath2:16

       Okay. So you start your days early, is it?

   22. NCNikos Christodoulides2:23

       You'll ask me-- We start already? Okay.

   23. NKNikhil Kamath2:26

       Yeah. [laughs]

   24. NCNikos Christodoulides2:26

       So I wake up, uh-

   25. NKNikhil Kamath2:27

       Mm

   26. NCNikos Christodoulides2:27

       ... early morn- every day at, uh, 5:30 in the morning.

   27. NKNikhil Kamath2:31

       Mm-hmm.

   28. NCNikos Christodoulides2:32

       Uh, I'm going to the gym at 6:00.

   29. NKNikhil Kamath2:35

       Mm-hmm.

   30. NCNikos Christodoulides2:36

       I spend, uh, an hour and a half there.
2. 3:07 – 8:02

   Being a historian first, a politician second

   1. NKNikhil Kamath3:07

      nap is a... Do you say-

   2. NCNikos Christodoulides3:09

      It's a Mediterranean habit.

   3. NKNikhil Kamath3:11

      Yeah.

   4. NCNikos Christodoulides3:11

      Uh, but it's, uh, it is very important. It is a must. [laughs]

   5. NKNikhil Kamath3:16

      Ah. I love the fact that you're a historian first-

   6. NCNikos Christodoulides3:21

      Mm-hmm

   7. NKNikhil Kamath3:21

      ... and an academic.

   8. NCNikos Christodoulides3:22

      Mm-hmm.

   9. NKNikhil Kamath3:23

      So when I was going through all that you have accomplished in life, which is so much, the thing that really stood out for me is historian. Uh, I feel like so much of what is happening today has happened in the past, but we don't pay enough attention.

   10. NCNikos Christodoulides3:42

       You're right because, you know, history repeats itself.

   11. NKNikhil Kamath3:46

       Mm-hmm.

   12. NCNikos Christodoulides3:46

       And it's very important to under- understand what happened in order to, you know, in a way predict what is going to happen. And, uh, especially when we are coming from, uh, from a small country-

   13. NKNikhil Kamath3:59

       Mm-hmm

   14. NCNikos Christodoulides3:59

       ... in a, uh, in a region of great geopolitical importance.

   15. NKNikhil Kamath4:05

       Mm-hmm.

   16. NCNikos Christodoulides4:05

       The most important element of Cyprus, if you ask me, is geography.

   17. NKNikhil Kamath4:09

       Mm-hmm.

   18. NCNikos Christodoulides4:10

       Uh, we connect Europe with the Middle East, with the Gulf, with Africa. So, uh, it is very, very important to understand the, the past.

   19. NKNikhil Kamath4:20

       Mm-hmm.

   20. NCNikos Christodoulides4:21

       So, uh, studying history, in a way, it is an advantage. And especially, you know, studying in the United States. When I decided back in, uh, when I graduated from high school, 1991, I had to go to the army for 26 months.

   21. NKNikhil Kamath4:38

       Mm-hmm.

   22. NCNikos Christodoulides4:39

       Uh, it is a mandatory to go in the army in Cyprus. Now it's 14 months, not 26 months. So when I, um, uh, I finished my military services, I decided to go to the United States for two reasons. The first one it was my brother was, uh, was there, so it would be much more easier for me. And the second one, it was the majority of, uh, of, uh, Cypriots, they used to go and study in, uh, the UK.

   23. NKNikhil Kamath5:06

       Mm-hmm.

   24. NCNikos Christodoulides5:07

       Uh, because of the special relationship that you also have.

   25. NKNikhil Kamath5:10

       Hmm.

   26. NCNikos Christodoulides5:11

       Uh, both of us used to be-

   27. NKNikhil Kamath5:12

       Do we call it special-

   28. NCNikos Christodoulides5:13

       ... a British-

   29. NKNikhil Kamath5:13

       ... special relationship?

   30. NCNikos Christodoulides5:14

       Love and hate relationship.
3. 8:02 – 12:03

   Why power politics is returning to the world

   1. NCNikos Christodoulides8:02

      you know, states, they always compete-

   2. NKNikhil Kamath8:05

      Mm-hmm

   3. NCNikos Christodoulides8:05

      ... who's going to be, you know, uh, the leader.

   4. NKNikhil Kamath8:08

      Mm-hmm.

   5. NCNikos Christodoulides8:09

      So even after the collapse of the Cold War, you know, I was expected that in 20, 30-

   6. NKNikhil Kamath8:15

      Mm-hmm

   7. NCNikos Christodoulides8:16

      ... 15 years, we're going to go back to this, you know, uh, anarchic, in a way, international, uh, system. And we're seeing this, uh, today.

   8. NKNikhil Kamath8:27

      Mm.

   9. NCNikos Christodoulides8:27

      And I'm witnessing this at the time, uh, not from the academic point of view, which is much more easier, but being a leader of a country that is, uh, located in, as I told you before, in a, in a region of great geopolitical importance. A country that is under Turkish occupation. A country that tries to, you know, balance between, uh, different interests-

   10. NKNikhil Kamath8:50

       Mm-hmm

   11. NCNikos Christodoulides8:50

       ... with them always to support and promote the interests of, of, of your country. And, um, it's here that I really believe that India can play a leading, a leading role. Biggest democracy in the world. Seventh, uh, biggest, uh, country geographically-wise. Uh, fourth biggest economic power to date. And, uh, we really see a lot of commonalities with India, starting from the past, our past, our struggle, anti-colonial struggle. Um, and, and today approaching... I mean, I can really say that we see eye to eye on all, on almost all international issues. So I'm visiting the country, um, at the time when, uh, we hold also the presidency of the Council of the European Union.

   12. NKNikhil Kamath9:49

       Mm-hmm.

   13. NCNikos Christodoulides9:49

       One small member state of the European Union. You know, every six months we have the rotating presidency, and Cyprus now holds, uh, proudly the presidency of the Council of the European Union. Prime Minister Modi visited Cyprus last June.

   14. NKNikhil Kamath10:03

       Mm-hmm.

   15. NCNikos Christodoulides10:03

       It was, uh, the first visit after 22 years.

   16. NKNikhil Kamath10:06

       Mm-hmm.

   17. NCNikos Christodoulides10:07

       And, um, following our discussions there, it was, uh, uh, we turn a new page, uh, in our relations on what we can do together at multilateral level, and I really believe that the sky's the limit when it comes to, to how we can work together. And, uh, following the recent developments in, in the region, in the Gulf, uh, with Iran, et cetera, I really believe that we need a new, a new architecture in the-

   18. NKNikhil Kamath10:38

       Mm-hmm

   19. NCNikos Christodoulides10:39

       ... in the region.

   20. NKNikhil Kamath10:39

       Mm-hmm.

   21. NCNikos Christodoulides10:40

       Security architecture, trade architecture, the way that we work together. So like-minded countries, like Cyprus, India, I can name more countries, we need to, to work together. To work together on a positive agenda, not to come together against a third country. To come together to work on a positive agenda, always for the benefit of our region and, of course, at the end of the day, of our people. So I'm looking forward to, um, uh, to our discussions, um, tomorrow.

   22. NKNikhil Kamath11:16

       Mm-hmm.

   23. NCNikos Christodoulides11:16

       Uh-

   24. NKNikhil Kamath11:17

       You're seeing him in Delhi?

   25. NCNikos Christodoulides11:18

       Yeah. I'm going tomorrow in-

   26. NKNikhil Kamath11:19

       Mm

   27. NCNikos Christodoulides11:20

       ... uh, in New Delhi in a, a... It's a state visit. I will see the prime minister.

   28. NKNikhil Kamath11:24

       Mm.

   29. NCNikos Christodoulides11:24

       I will see, of course, the, the president. I will see the foreign minister. He's a very good friend of mine.

   30. NKNikhil Kamath11:29

       Mm-hmm.
4. 12:03 – 17:01

   The case for India on the UN Security Council

   1. NCNikos Christodoulides12:03

      it's very important to have the, the academic background to know what happened.

   2. NKNikhil Kamath12:07

      Mm-hmm.

   3. NCNikos Christodoulides12:07

      Uh, this is very, very important in-

   4. NKNikhil Kamath12:09

      What do you make of PM Modi?

   5. NCNikos Christodoulides12:13

      He's an international leader.

   6. NKNikhil Kamath12:15

      Mm-hmm.

   7. NCNikos Christodoulides12:16

      Uh, I really believe that you are blessed that you have, uh-

   8. NKNikhil Kamath12:19

      Mm-hmm

   9. NCNikos Christodoulides12:20

      ... Modi as the prime minister of, uh, of India.

   10. NKNikhil Kamath12:23

       Mm-hmm.

   11. NCNikos Christodoulides12:23

       He's internationally respected, and I think now is the time for, for India, uh, to enhance its role-

   12. NKNikhil Kamath12:35

       Mm-hmm

   13. NCNikos Christodoulides12:35

       ... to play an international, uh, role, and that is why we are also supporting... We talk, we start our discussion from history.

   14. NKNikhil Kamath12:43

       Yeah.

   15. NCNikos Christodoulides12:44

       Following the, uh, World War II, we have the new international system with the UN.

   16. NKNikhil Kamath12:48

       Mm-hmm.

   17. NCNikos Christodoulides12:48

       I'm just giving you an example. With five permanent members with a veto power.

   18. NKNikhil Kamath12:54

       Mm-hmm.

   19. NCNikos Christodoulides12:54

       Russia, US, UK, France, and China.

   20. NKNikhil Kamath12:58

       Mm-hmm.

   21. NCNikos Christodoulides13:00

       Those five, they were the, the great powers following World War II.

   22. NKNikhil Kamath13:04

       Mm-hmm.

   23. NCNikos Christodoulides13:05

       Today we have a different international system. So if we want to give credibility to the UN-

   24. NKNikhil Kamath13:12

       Mm-hmm

   25. NCNikos Christodoulides13:12

       ... and I really believe that we want, we need to give more credibility to the UN. We, we need an international organization under which, you know, um, uh, the international system functions. We need to expand the UN Security, the permanent members of the UN Security Council, and India should be the first one that-

   26. NKNikhil Kamath13:33

       Mm-hmm

   27. NCNikos Christodoulides13:33

       ... should be included.

   28. NKNikhil Kamath13:34

       Mm-hmm.

   29. NCNikos Christodoulides13:35

       So I see this new geopolitical-

   30. NKNikhil Kamath13:38

       Mm-hmm
5. 17:01 – 22:23

   How postwar institutions favoured the incumbents

   1. NCNikos Christodoulides17:01

      I mean, in the short run, we may see, you know-

   2. NKNikhil Kamath17:03

      Mm-hmm

   3. NCNikos Christodoulides17:03

      ... some interest, some gains.

   4. NKNikhil Kamath17:06

      Mm.

   5. NCNikos Christodoulides17:06

      But in the long run, it's going to be a lose-lose, uh, situation.

   6. NKNikhil Kamath17:12

      Even beyond World War II, these institutions, in a way, like, if you were to consider the, how the in- international economy was modeled, from Bretton Woods to the dollar being on the gold standard to going out of it, in a way, the, the institutions have been modeled in a manner to favor the incumbent, and the incumbent since World War II to now, to a large part, I would say the transition from the British incumbency to American happened pre-World War II, in my opinion.

   7. NCNikos Christodoulides17:46

      Mm-hmm.

   8. NKNikhil Kamath17:46

      But have these institutions not favored the incumbent?

   9. NCNikos Christodoulides17:51

      In a way, yes, especially at the beginning. They were the ones that they established those institutions. So they established them in a way-

   10. NKNikhil Kamath17:59

       Mm

   11. NCNikos Christodoulides17:59

       ... to serve their interests. What is the difference today? We are living in a very [clears throat] interconnected world.

   12. NKNikhil Kamath18:08

       Mm-hmm.

   13. NCNikos Christodoulides18:08

       Let's go in the Gulf and what's going on in the Gulf, uh, with Iran, Israel, and the countries of the Gulf. It's something that influence also the United States, who geographically-

   14. NKNikhil Kamath18:19

       Mm-hmm

   15. NCNikos Christodoulides18:19

       ... is very far away. It influence everybody. What's, what's happening in India influence also the situation in the United States. So the world today is much more interconnected-

   16. NKNikhil Kamath18:33

       Mm-hmm

   17. NCNikos Christodoulides18:34

       ... compared with, um, the way i- it was in 1945. So the institutions that they were established following World War II, and we needed those institutions. We need to update these institutions-

   18. NKNikhil Kamath18:47

       Mm

   19. NCNikos Christodoulides18:47

       ... to reflect today's reality and how interconnected our world is.

   20. NKNikhil Kamath18:54

       Don't the Americans seem to be projecting that because they are not dependent on international energy per se, and America, they claim, is energy sufficient, they care less about-

   21. NCNikos Christodoulides19:07

       Not in the long run, though.

   22. NKNikhil Kamath19:08

       Hmm.

   23. NCNikos Christodoulides19:09

       Not in the long run. Even with this crisis-

   24. NKNikhil Kamath19:11

       Mm

   25. NCNikos Christodoulides19:11

       ... in, in, in the Gulf, we see the prices of, uh, of, uh, diesel, oil in the United States go, uh, going up.

   26. NKNikhil Kamath19:19

       Mm.

   27. NCNikos Christodoulides19:19

       So there is no country that is not affected by the situation in the Gulf today.

   28. NKNikhil Kamath19:24

       How do you think it plays out? Like, as somebody who has a lot more access and insight into the subject than I do-

   29. NCNikos Christodoulides19:34

       Mm-hmm

   30. NKNikhil Kamath19:34

       ... when I watch it as a businessman, as an entrepreneur, it all feels very stupid to me. I feel like nobody... In most modern wars, beyond a point of time, nobody remembers why they started fighting in the first place, and what the outcome they tried to achieve when they began versus what they want now, or they claim they want now, is completely different. If you were to wager a guess, what happens next? What happens in Iran? What happens in America? What happens between the new blocks that seem to be getting created?
6. 22:23 – 27:02

   Whether democracy still delivers economic progress

   1. NCNikos Christodoulides22:24

      but the international system that was established following World War II should be developed in order to be relevant with today's realities.

   2. NKNikhil Kamath22:32

      Mm-hmm. Do you believe in democracy today? If-

   3. NCNikos Christodoulides22:37

      We, we don't have an alternative.

   4. NKNikhil Kamath22:39

      If the outcome is economic wellbeing of a country and growth-

   5. NCNikos Christodoulides22:46

      Mm-hmm

   6. NKNikhil Kamath22:47

      ... do you think democracy is the best bridge to get there?

   7. NCNikos Christodoulides22:51

      It's the only way-

   8. NKNikhil Kamath22:53

      Mm

   9. NCNikos Christodoulides22:53

      ... to get, uh, economic progress and the, and the wellbeing of, uh, of the people.

   10. NKNikhil Kamath22:59

       Hmm. Isn't... I'm not, like, championing the cause of an anti-democracy thing at all.

   11. NCNikos Christodoulides23:08

       No, no, feel, feel free.

   12. NKNikhil Kamath23:09

       Yeah. I'm just-

   13. NCNikos Christodoulides23:09

       Because we see a tendency, especially in Europe-

   14. NKNikhil Kamath23:13

       Mm.

   15. NCNikos Christodoulides23:14

       Um, uh, we see a lot of threats-

   16. NKNikhil Kamath23:16

       Mm-hmm

   17. NCNikos Christodoulides23:17

       ... to democracy today.

   18. NKNikhil Kamath23:18

       Mm-hmm.

   19. NCNikos Christodoulides23:19

       Let's go to social media.

   20. NKNikhil Kamath23:21

       Mm.

   21. NCNikos Christodoulides23:21

       I don't know what is the situation in-

   22. NKNikhil Kamath23:23

       [laughs]

   23. NCNikos Christodoulides23:23

       ... uh, in India, but everybody-

   24. NKNikhil Kamath23:25

       Yeah

   25. NCNikos Christodoulides23:25

       ... everybody-

   26. NKNikhil Kamath23:26

       Yeah

   27. NCNikos Christodoulides23:26

       ... through social media-

   28. NKNikhil Kamath23:27

       Mm

   29. NCNikos Christodoulides23:28

       ... uh, they, they can promote, you know, they read something that doesn't reflect the reality.

   30. NKNikhil Kamath23:34

       Mm.
7. 27:02 – 34:39

   Designing a new regional order from India to Europe

   1. NCNikos Christodoulides27:02

      to update the international system to reflect today's, uh, realities.

   2. NKNikhil Kamath27:08

      Right. And if you had to update it in your lens, say, create a new in- international institution, can you paint that picture for me? How would you create a institution?

   3. NCNikos Christodoulides27:18

      I will start from the regional level.

   4. NKNikhil Kamath27:20

      Mm-hmm.

   5. NCNikos Christodoulides27:22

      I will start from, uh, uh, first to connect, uh, the region with Europe.

   6. NKNikhil Kamath27:31

      Hmm.

   7. NCNikos Christodoulides27:33

      It's much more easier to start, you know, building the puzzle.

   8. NKNikhil Kamath27:37

      Yeah. Mm.

   9. NCNikos Christodoulides27:38

      So, uh, India, connecting India with the Gulf, with the Middle East, with Europe.

   10. NKNikhil Kamath27:46

       And when you say-

   11. NCNikos Christodoulides27:46

       It's a win-win situation

   12. NKNikhil Kamath27:47

       ... and when you say connecting, what do you mean? For trade?

   13. NCNikos Christodoulides27:50

       Not only trade.

   14. NKNikhil Kamath27:51

       Hmm.

   15. NCNikos Christodoulides27:52

       To institutionalize our relationship.

   16. NKNikhil Kamath27:57

       Mm-hmm.

   17. NCNikos Christodoulides27:57

       You know, I mean, trade, economy, um, uh, approaching international issues, everything.

   18. NKNikhil Kamath28:04

       Mm-hmm.

   19. NCNikos Christodoulides28:06

       Through a regional organization, something like the Organization for the Security and Cooperation in Europe that we had in 1975.

   20. NKNikhil Kamath28:16

       Mm-hmm.

   21. NCNikos Christodoulides28:19

       What happened in 1975? Because the international system, the UN system following 1945, in a way excluded a lot of countries. In 1975, we have the Organization for the Security and Cooperation in Europe, a regional organization, not an international one like the, the, the UN. Because the countries of Europe, they see the benefit out of this, uh, of this cooperation. So let's start with a regional organization starting, uh, from India to, uh, to Europe. Give substance to this, trade, economy, and, uh, at the end of the day-

   22. NKNikhil Kamath28:58

       Mm-hmm

   23. NCNikos Christodoulides28:58

       ... all of us participating in this regional organization will see the benefits out of this cooperation, and we expand this with more and more regions.

   24. NKNikhil Kamath29:11

       Do you suspect this might be causing the conflict we see today, the Thucydides Trap of China challenging the incumbency of America?

   25. NCNikos Christodoulides29:22

       I think in, uh, in, uh, in today's, uh, [clears throat] very challenging international system, you see the way the, the European cities... I will talk with the European cities. I mean, the most important country in Europe used to be the United States-

   26. NKNikhil Kamath29:40

       Hmm

   27. NCNikos Christodoulides29:40

       ... because the intervention of the United States in World War II saved Europe-

   28. NKNikhil Kamath29:44

       Hmm

   29. NCNikos Christodoulides29:45

       ... brings democracy, brought democracy in Europe. And, uh, the transatlantic relationship was the most important bond-

   30. NKNikhil Kamath29:55

       Mm-hmm
8. 34:39 – 40:53

   Why interests, not values, reshape alliances

   1. NCNikos Christodoulides34:39

      States, who geographically is very far away from this region.

   2. NKNikhil Kamath34:44

      Mm-hmm.

   3. NCNikos Christodoulides34:45

      So we see this new approach to our region. And if you go back, what is the reasons? Again, the in- their interest, because interest is the one that influence the way we approach, uh, uh, situations. And we see this political willingness to work together. So we need to take advantage of this crisis because crisis always gives a lot of opportunities. And out of this crisis, we built a new, a new architecture in the, in the region. And when I say region, I start from India and I go to, uh, to Europe and work together. And this will also send a message, a positive message, because we are going to work together on a positive agenda. We are coming together not against a third country.

   4. NKNikhil Kamath35:39

      Mm.

   5. NCNikos Christodoulides35:40

      For those countries that to join this, this cooperation. And we need, we need a country to play a leading role, and I think India can play this role. 30, 40 years before-

   6. NKNikhil Kamath35:58

      Mm. Mm

   7. NCNikos Christodoulides35:59

      ... the Indian prime minister to be so warmly welcomed in all these European countries.

   8. NKNikhil Kamath36:05

      Mm. 100 years ago, I wouldn't imagine it. 150 years ago. [laughs]

   9. NCNikos Christodoulides36:10

      You see? See the way that they are welcoming today Prime Minister Modi in, uh, in Europe.

   10. NKNikhil Kamath36:17

       Mm.

   11. NCNikos Christodoulides36:19

       Why the free trade agreement wasn't possible? The free trade agreement was announced on January. It was the first week of our presidency of the Council of the European Union. Why this free trade agreement, uh, wasn't even discussed before five and 10 years?

   12. NKNikhil Kamath36:35

       Mm.

   13. NCNikos Christodoulides36:38

       Because international developments today, they make all of us-

   14. NKNikhil Kamath36:43

       Mm

   15. NCNikos Christodoulides36:44

       ... the Europeans, India, we understand the need-

   16. NKNikhil Kamath36:49

       Mm

   17. NCNikos Christodoulides36:49

       ... to come closer together.

   18. NKNikhil Kamath36:52

       Someone wise in history had said, I wouldn't know, but probably you will, that if there are warriors, there will be war. What worries me, Nikos, is in a world where everybody's upping their defense budgets-

   19. NCNikos Christodoulides37:08

       Mm-hmm

   20. NKNikhil Kamath37:10

       ... either out of choice or out of somebody else's volition. The increased defense budgets do not means, does not necessarily mean a safer world. I think it means a more violent world.

   21. NCNikos Christodoulides37:27

       But if you want to avoid war, you need to increase your defense budget. It's the only way to avoid, uh, avoid war.

   22. NKNikhil Kamath37:35

       But if everybody were to increase their defense budget and sit with a whole bunch more weapons than they already have, I don't know if that avoids war or creates war.

   23. NCNikos Christodoulides37:46

       I see. I fully see your point, but we didn't reach that stage that we believe war is an, uh, an avoidable.

   24. NKNikhil Kamath37:56

       Mm.

   25. NCNikos Christodoulides37:57

       So we need to increase our... W- why we did it Europe?

   26. NKNikhil Kamath38:01

       Mm.

   27. NCNikos Christodoulides38:02

       In Europe, I remember always discussing about the need to enhance our defense and, and security.

   28. NKNikhil Kamath38:07

       Mm.

   29. NCNikos Christodoulides38:08

       We had a lot of discussions-

   30. NKNikhil Kamath38:10

       Mm
9. 40:53 – 42:35

   The only real way to avoid war

   1. NCNikos Christodoulides40:54

      that it will make the country to think two and three times before starting a war, is the only way to avoid it. And that is why I'm insisting on institutionalize the regional cooperation, starting from India to Europe, and Cyprus really is the, is the entry point, the gateway of India, uh, to Europe. Create an organization, I repeat myself, on a positive agenda in order not to give the impression to the country that, "Ah, all those countries are coming together against my interest."

   2. NKNikhil Kamath41:41

      Mm-hmm.

   3. NCNikos Christodoulides41:43

      Out of this cooperation, all of us, we are going to see benefits, sending indirectly the same time the message to those countries that are not part of this organization that I have a benefit to join this organization. In order to join this organization, I need to behave in a certain way. Not... or put it a different way. Respecting the sovereignty, the territorial integrity, and independence of India. Because if I'm going to question and challenge the, the territorial integrity and the sovereignty of India, I will be excluded by this regional organization that is giving so many

10. 42:35 – 46:02

    Where he stands on left versus right

    1. NCNikos Christodoulides42:35

       benefits to the countries that are participating and to their people.

    2. NKNikhil Kamath42:40

       Mm. Politics of tomorrow, do you think the world will move left or right? In which way do you lean personally?

    3. NCNikos Christodoulides42:48

       You mean left and right ideology-wise?

    4. NKNikhil Kamath42:51

       Also economy-wise.

    5. NCNikos Christodoulides42:53

       I really believe in ideology because, you know, today some people they say there are no ideologies-

    6. NKNikhil Kamath42:59

       Mm

    7. NCNikos Christodoulides42:59

       ... and et cetera. I, I fully disagree-

    8. NKNikhil Kamath43:01

       Mm-hmm

    9. NCNikos Christodoulides43:02

       ... on, uh, with this. Um, I see more to, to the right.

    10. NKNikhil Kamath43:08

        Mm.

    11. NCNikos Christodoulides43:08

        Center, uh, to the right. I think, um, the left coming also what happened in the, in the Soviet Union.

    12. NKNikhil Kamath43:18

        Mm-hmm.

    13. NCNikos Christodoulides43:19

        Uh, they failed. Uh, it may be very good in textbooks-

    14. NKNikhil Kamath43:25

        Mm

    15. NCNikos Christodoulides43:25

        ... in, uh, in academia, but, uh, the reality is much more different. So I, I see the world going to center to the right.

    16. NKNikhil Kamath43:33

        Left didn't work out historically, so there's no pre- precedent for it really. But one can assume-

    17. NCNikos Christodoulides43:40

        And when we say left, I mean, we mean Marx. We mean Lenin. We mean Stalin. We mean... What's left?

    18. NKNikhil Kamath43:50

        If you keep going left, you probably ended some version of communism at the extreme, so many of the names you mentioned.

    19. NCNikos Christodoulides43:58

        But communist in China, communist in, uh, the former Soviet Union, or communist-

    20. NKNikhil Kamath44:04

        Yeah

    21. NCNikos Christodoulides44:04

        ... in Eastern Europe.

    22. NKNikhil Kamath44:05

        I feel like communism in China was, like at least during Mao, when he had the cultural revolution, he was reciting Marx to a great extent, right? He said-

    23. NCNikos Christodoulides44:16

        Mm-hmm.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath44:18

        He at least said this is some place to take inspiration. So I would say communism of that kind, if you keep walking left.

    25. NCNikos Christodoulides44:26

        You know, let's, uh, let's move our discussion from, uh, uh, the theoretical and go to the practical.

    26. NKNikhil Kamath44:37

        Mm-hmm.

    27. NCNikos Christodoulides44:38

        I mean, on the issue of ideology, how I see at least. I really believe in the free economy.

    28. NKNikhil Kamath44:45

        Mm-hmm.

    29. NCNikos Christodoulides44:47

        But at the same time, as a president of the, of my country, I believe that I have a responsibility-

    30. NKNikhil Kamath44:55

        Mm-hmm
11. 46:02 – 47:11

    Moving from academia into political reality

    1. NKNikhil Kamath46:02

       to a politician, has it been tough?

    2. NCNikos Christodoulides46:08

       Interesting. [laughs]

    3. NKNikhil Kamath46:09

       Yeah.

    4. NCNikos Christodoulides46:10

       I would say interesting because I did a lot of research on, on archives.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath46:18

       Mm.

    6. NCNikos Christodoulides46:18

       Preparing, uh, the books that I, I published.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath46:23

       Mm.

    8. NCNikos Christodoulides46:23

       And, uh, you read the minutes out of a meeting, okay? And you just read, you know, what they said, what they discussed, et cetera. It's much more different to be present-

    9. NKNikhil Kamath46:40

       Mm

    10. NCNikos Christodoulides46:40

        ... in the meeting. And if someone raise his, her voice-

    11. NKNikhil Kamath46:45

        Mm-hmm

    12. NCNikos Christodoulides46:46

        ... uh, body language. That was my first shock when I moved from academia to politics. Um, you need, though, academia in, uh, in politics.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath47:00

        Mm-hmm.

    14. NCNikos Christodoulides47:01

        Those that they don't know what happened, they are in much more challenging position to deal with current, uh,

12. 47:11 – 52:08

    What AI could do to work and democracy

    1. NCNikos Christodoulides47:11

       crisis, let's say.

    2. NKNikhil Kamath47:14

       Maybe hopefully things like AI will lead us to a point where studying history and philosophy become a lot more relevant all over again.

    3. NCNikos Christodoulides47:27

       I'm a bit concerned with this technological, uh, progress.

    4. NKNikhil Kamath47:32

       Mm.

    5. NCNikos Christodoulides47:33

       I see a lot of benefits.

    6. NKNikhil Kamath47:34

       Mm-hmm.

    7. NCNikos Christodoulides47:35

       AI in, uh, medicine, but, uh, uh, I'm a bit concerned how it's going to be in 10, 20 years. What is going to happen if AI replaces 80% of the workforce?

    8. NKNikhil Kamath47:53

       Mm. We go left.

    9. NCNikos Christodoulides47:57

       You go left or you question democracy.

    10. NKNikhil Kamath48:00

        Both. You question maybe governance as well and wonder if-

    11. NCNikos Christodoulides48:06

        And we end up in, in anarchic system, more anarchic than today.

    12. NKNikhil Kamath48:13

        Or a very structured world not run by humans, but systems.

    13. NCNikos Christodoulides48:18

        So I have some doubts about the... I see the benefits out of the-

    14. NKNikhil Kamath48:23

        Mm

    15. NCNikos Christodoulides48:23

        ... technological progress.

    16. NKNikhil Kamath48:25

        Mm-hmm.

    17. NCNikos Christodoulides48:25

        There are a lot of benefits for all of us, but I'm a bit concerned with how it will developed in the future.

    18. NKNikhil Kamath48:36

        Mm-hmm. There's so much productivity around AI, which is being localized in between a couple of companies.

    19. NCNikos Christodoulides48:43

        Mm-hmm.

    20. NKNikhil Kamath48:45

        Like, I don't see another scenario if this trend were to continue. These companies will have to be nationalized in one way or another. And then maybe some form of UBI, like universal basic income

    21. NCNikos Christodoulides48:59

        I mean, in order to be protected

    22. NKNikhil Kamath49:02

        In order for the people of the country not to, the ones who lose the jobs, the 80%-

    23. NCNikos Christodoulides49:08

        Uh-huh

    24. NKNikhil Kamath49:08

        ... not to walk into these companies with bricks and try and break it down.

    25. NCNikos Christodoulides49:13

        I hope this is not the scenario, but we're talking-

    26. NKNikhil Kamath49:15

        Yeah. [laughs]

    27. NCNikos Christodoulides49:15

        ... about the future scenario, that they will lose their, their work, how they will react.

    28. NKNikhil Kamath49:21

        Hmm. Was this right, like in Greek-

    29. NCNikos Christodoulides49:26

        You are more in left, huh?

    30. NKNikhil Kamath49:28

        I'm not in left. I'm a centrist.
13. 52:08 – 56:22

    Thinking about the next generation, not the next election

    1. NCNikos Christodoulides52:08

       you are in a position of, of power-

    2. NKNikhil Kamath52:10

       Mm-hmm

    3. NCNikos Christodoulides52:11

       ... to decide, to think and decide, without thinking the next elections, but thinking the next generations. And being a historian, it helps me to understand this, because you may do something today-

    4. NKNikhil Kamath52:32

       Mm-hmm

    5. NCNikos Christodoulides52:33

       ... please everybody, have in the newspapers, next-day newspapers, the best articles, the best coverage.

    6. NKNikhil Kamath52:42

       Hmm.

    7. NCNikos Christodoulides52:43

       But in the books of history in 50 years-

    8. NKNikhil Kamath52:46

       Yeah

    9. NCNikos Christodoulides52:46

       ... it will say, "He or she failed."

    10. NKNikhil Kamath52:51

        Hmm.

    11. NCNikos Christodoulides52:52

        That's why when you are in a, in a position of, you know, you need to decide every day, you need to think the, the next generations and not the next, uh, elections.

    12. NKNikhil Kamath53:05

        And if you win in the short term, Napoleon said a very interesting thing. "History is generally written by the winners of tomorrow." So even if you won one or two election cycles, history wouldn't care too much about it.

    13. NCNikos Christodoulides53:23

        So thinking about the next generation will also... Today we have a crisis on, on the institutions. It's much more easy for people to question the government, the president, the prime minister, the parliament.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath53:36

        Hmm.

    15. NCNikos Christodoulides53:37

        Uh, they're doing this, uh, every day. But you need those people to be part of the, of the democratic elections. You mentioned before democracy. We discussed democracy. Because it would be a failure for all of us-

    16. NKNikhil Kamath53:54

        Mm-hmm

    17. NCNikos Christodoulides53:54

        ... if we end up in a situation that the majority of the people decide not to go to participate in democratic elections, in elections. And then you have the minority. You have the people, less than 50% of the population, deciding about the prime min- who's going to be the prime minister, who's going to be the president, the parliamentarians, et cetera.

    18. NKNikhil Kamath54:21

        We keep coming back to history so much because I'm inspired by your background in history. Someone said, "The best people for positions of power are people who don't desire power too much." The problem with politics of today is the people in positions of power are the ones who most desire power.

    19. NCNikos Christodoulides54:45

        Today?

    20. NKNikhil Kamath54:45

        Today.

    21. NCNikos Christodoulides54:54

        This is, um- Cyprus cheese

    22. NKNikhil Kamath54:57

        Yeah, halloumi

    23. NCNikos Christodoulides54:58

        Halloumi

    24. NKNikhil Kamath54:58

        Yeah. I heard

    25. NCNikos Christodoulides54:59

        It's a-

    26. NKNikhil Kamath55:00

        I like halloumi

    27. NCNikos Christodoulides55:01

        ... European Union-protected, uh, product, and is, uh, we export here in, uh, uh, in India

    28. NKNikhil Kamath55:09

        Mm-hmm

    29. NCNikos Christodoulides55:09

        Actually, it's the number one, uh, export product of, uh, of, um, of Cyprus. Going back to your question, I mean, nothing wrong-

    30. NKNikhil Kamath55:19

        Mm-hmm
14. 56:22 – 1:03:09

    What it feels like to hold power

    1. NCNikos Christodoulides56:23

       will come probably after you leave the office.

    2. NKNikhil Kamath56:28

       Can I ask you, how does it feel to be in power? How does it feel to be the president of a country?

    3. NCNikos Christodoulides56:34

       Hmm. It's a very lonely road.

    4. NKNikhil Kamath56:47

       Mm-hmm.

    5. NCNikos Christodoulides56:49

       You need to every day to take, uh, difficult decisions, and that is why you ne- you should never forget that you are here in order to, to change your country, not to please the voters the next day, and having good articles in the press, and care more about good books in the future.

    6. NKNikhil Kamath57:19

       Mm-hmm. Very well said.

    7. NCNikos Christodoulides57:23

       I mean, let's go to President Trump.

    8. NKNikhil Kamath57:26

       Hmm.

    9. NCNikos Christodoulides57:29

       You see some reactions through, uh, through X. I'm going to put 30% tariffs-

    10. NKNikhil Kamath57:39

        Mm

    11. NCNikos Christodoulides57:39

        ... tomorrow-

    12. NKNikhil Kamath57:40

        Mm

    13. NCNikos Christodoulides57:40

        ... to European products or Indian products. And you see a lot internally, the US, you see a lot of positive reaction on this. When the time passes, you see that even President Trump understand that-

    14. NKNikhil Kamath58:00

        Mm

    15. NCNikos Christodoulides58:02

        ... we need to discuss, we need to find a way, because what is important is what is going to happen, and not the reaction the next day. And also, it's very important to know that, uh, what are you are doing, there is an end date. It will not be forever. This also very important. Keep in mind.

    16. NKNikhil Kamath58:24

        For Cyprus and India, I wanted to ask you this. Most people watching this would not have thought of Cyprus that much in their life, like Indians. The Indians that are watching it, like, which is a half of my audience, they'd have thought of Cyprus for a minute in their lives maybe because it is a small country.

    17. NCNikos Christodoulides58:48

        Yeah, yeah.

    18. NKNikhil Kamath58:48

        It's, it's a million and a half people. What is the opportunity, not for a government, not for policy, but for individuals and businesses in India to engage with Cyprus? What is the low-hanging fruit?

    19. NCNikos Christodoulides59:07

        An Indian, uh, um, business, uh, person that, uh, invests in Cyprus, immediately he or she has an access to a market of 450, uh, million people-

    20. NKNikhil Kamath59:22

        Mm-hmm

    21. NCNikos Christodoulides59:23

        ... a European, uh, market. At the same time, he has access, uh, in a, in a, a very promising region, which is the Greater Middle East, Gulf, and the, and the Middle East, uh, in a predictable, reliable country with security. Um, uh, we're following the, we have the common law-

    22. NKNikhil Kamath59:48

        Mm-hmm

    23. NCNikos Christodoulides59:48

        ... as you, uh, as you have here. So, uh, it's giving a lot of, uh, uh, advantages to, to an Indian, um, uh, business person that decides to, to invest, uh, in Cyprus. But we approach India not just as a market.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath1:00:08

        Mm-hmm.

    25. NCNikos Christodoulides1:00:08

        It's much more. India for Cyprus is much more than a market. I told you before that we see eye to eye on, on all international issues. So we are in a country, a friendly country, like-minded country. You are in the region. At the same time, you are in Europe. You know, the biggest advantage of Cyprus, if you ask me, is our geographical position, because we connect Europe, uh, with the region. And if you ask me, one of my vision when I became president is to really connect, uh, Europe with the region, and Cyprus being the bridging, uh, the bridge between the two, and we have the DNA to do it.

    26. NKNikhil Kamath1:01:00

        If I were to look at you like a CEO of a company with a million and a half people, how do you build a country to succeed like you would be a CEO of a startup, for example?

    27. NCNikos Christodoulides1:01:12

        First of all, you need to succeed internally. If you don't have the ingredients, the, the DNA, what I told you before-

    28. NKNikhil Kamath1:01:19

        Mm-hmm

    29. NCNikos Christodoulides1:01:19

        ... you cannot succeed externally.

    30. NKNikhil Kamath1:01:22

        Mm.
15. 1:03:09 – 1:07:57

    What diplomacy taught him about negotiation

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:09

       in diplomacy?

    2. NCNikos Christodoulides1:03:10

       Of course. Of course.

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:13

       I need to learn how to be more like that. [laughs]

    4. NCNikos Christodoulides1:03:15

       [laughs] Because, uh, that's why I mentioned before, I'm not a diplomat anymore, and I will be, uh, um, more frank.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:22

       Mm.

    6. NCNikos Christodoulides1:03:23

       It was a learning experience. I mean, being a diplomat of a, of a small country-

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:29

       Mm

    8. NCNikos Christodoulides1:03:29

       ... under occupation and serving in, in a... If you ask me what is-

    9. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:35

       Mm

    10. NCNikos Christodoulides1:03:36

        ... the first thing that has come in my mind when, uh, um, uh, from my diplomatic career-

    11. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:41

        Mm

    12. NCNikos Christodoulides1:03:42

        ... if you go and approach a foreign diplomat or a foreign country and ask-

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:50

        Mm

    14. NCNikos Christodoulides1:03:50

        ... to support you in your national issue, what is our number one, uh, what is our national issue? Uh, the fact that Turkey still occupies 37% of the territory of the Republic of Cyprus, so I need-

    15. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:03

        Mm

    16. NCNikos Christodoulides1:04:04

        ... support in order to face this challenge. So if I'm going to approach a, a German diplomat-

    17. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:13

        Mm

    18. NCNikos Christodoulides1:04:14

        ... with the aim to get the support of Germany, and, uh, I go there and I just talk about the Cyprus problem, the Cyprus problem, the Cyprus problem, having the impression that we're at the center of the world, and that every morning they wake up in Berlin and in Moscow and Washington thinking about Cyprus, I failed.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:34

        Mm.

    20. NCNikos Christodoulides1:04:35

        It's very important, first of all-

    21. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:37

        Mm

    22. NCNikos Christodoulides1:04:37

        ... to know his challenges.

    23. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:40

        Mm-hmm.

    24. NCNikos Christodoulides1:04:41

        Discuss about his challenges.

    25. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:43

        Mm-hmm.

    26. NCNikos Christodoulides1:04:44

        Align your interest-

    27. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:46

        Mm

    28. NCNikos Christodoulides1:04:47

        ... with, um, uh, his country interest, and at the end, the last issue that you're going to raise is your issue.

    29. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:57

        So it teaches you how to negotiate very well.

    30. NCNikos Christodoulides1:04:59

        Yeah. Also negotiations.
16. 1:07:57 – 1:13:12

    A closing argument for India's leading role

    1. NCNikos Christodoulides1:07:58

       So let's, uh, end up with history.

    2. NKNikhil Kamath1:08:01

       Yeah.

    3. NCNikos Christodoulides1:08:04

       We need international institutions and international norms.

    4. NKNikhil Kamath1:08:07

       Mm.

    5. NCNikos Christodoulides1:08:08

       But we need to update them and be relevant to today's reality.

    6. NKNikhil Kamath1:08:14

       Mm.

    7. NCNikos Christodoulides1:08:16

       We need a regional organization starting from India, going to Europe based on a positive agenda-

    8. NKNikhil Kamath1:08:29

       Mm-hmm

    9. NCNikos Christodoulides1:08:29

       ... without excluding everybody, anybody. But at the same time, those that they want to join this regional organization, which is based, I repeat it, on a positive agenda and not against the third country. They need to follow certain rules.

    10. NKNikhil Kamath1:08:51

        Mm-hmm.

    11. NCNikos Christodoulides1:08:52

        And I really believe that will, this will be attractive also for those countries that they don't join at the beginning because they will see the benefits for the countries that they are participating and their peoples to join us. And, uh, through this, I really believe that in the long run we will avoid also wars or difficult situation like the ones we're witnessing today in, uh, in our, in our region. And I'm saying this based on, uh, historical-

    12. NKNikhil Kamath1:09:30

        Mm

    13. NCNikos Christodoulides1:09:31

        ... uh, not experience, based on, on history and, and what happened in the world.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath1:09:36

        Mm.

    15. NCNikos Christodoulides1:09:36

        And in this, in order to happen, India has a special leading role to play.

    16. NKNikhil Kamath1:09:47

        Mm-hmm. Anything outside, like how about life in India? What are you looking forward to in the next day of being here?

    17. NCNikos Christodoulides1:09:56

        Unfortunately-

    18. NKNikhil Kamath1:09:57

        Yeah

    19. NCNikos Christodoulides1:09:57

        ... my associates that they gave me five minutes.

    20. NKNikhil Kamath1:10:00

        Ha. [laughs]

    21. NCNikos Christodoulides1:10:00

        They didn't, they didn't, you know, they didn't give me free time even for an hour to, uh, to see I- India.

    22. NKNikhil Kamath1:10:08

        [laughs]

    23. NCNikos Christodoulides1:10:08

        I, I was, I was here back in 2017.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath1:10:12

        Yeah.

    25. NCNikos Christodoulides1:10:12

        Mumbai and, uh, and, uh, New Delhi. Uh, you know, we're a small country. Almost a million, a- actually.

    26. NKNikhil Kamath1:10:21

        Mm.

    27. NCNikos Christodoulides1:10:21

        We have, uh, a very vibrant Indian community in Cyprus.

    28. NKNikhil Kamath1:10:26

        Really?

    29. NCNikos Christodoulides1:10:26

        Yeah, 15,000. I mean, for Cyprus, 15,000-

    30. NKNikhil Kamath1:10:29

        And Indians, Malay-

Episode duration: 1:13:12