Nikhil KamathThe Battery Everyone Uses Is The One They'd Never Build | EnerVenue x HiNa | WTF are Batteries?
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
60 min read · 12,431 words- 0:00 – 6:45
Introduction
- NKNikhil Kamath
[upbeat music] Mm-hmm. So I don't know much about batteries. I want you guys to teach me. You both are the experts. What is a cell? What is a battery? [upbeat music] So what do you need in a sodium battery? [upbeat music] Lithium cells have a lot of rare earth? [upbeat music] What about solid state batteries?
- KTKun Tang
One is works on sodium battery, one works on the solid state batteries. So I choose a sodium one. I think sodium is amazing. I think it must be future. [upbeat music]
- NKNikhil Kamath
Why does CATL have a monopoly on batteries then?
- HRHenning Rath
I wouldn't call it a monopoly. I would say they're very competitive. [upbeat music]
- NKNikhil Kamath
Do you think there's an opportunity to start a electric car company today?
- HRHenning Rath
I think, you know, when it comes to electric car company and, you know, me being German, I'm-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- HRHenning Rath
... uh, probably a, a different view on this.
- NKNikhil Kamath
You are wrong.
- HRHenning Rath
Absolutely. [laughs]
- NKNikhil Kamath
[laughs] I hear of a Tesla catching fire once in a while, or a BYD catching fire. It's a long while.
- HRHenning Rath
Last year, 2025-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- HRHenning Rath
... uh, the world, uh, had over 14,000 LFP fires. It is not once in a while.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Wow.
- HRHenning Rath
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Maybe it makes it to the news once in a while.
- HRHenning Rath
That is correct. [laughs]
- NKNikhil Kamath
[laughs] [upbeat music] Thank you both, uh, Tang and, uh, Henning, for doing this. I'll tell you why I wanted to do this. Um, it feels like the world is going through so much turmoil around energy, and I have a fund, a private equity fund, where we do, do invest in a lot of energy transition companies. Energy does not seem to be the problem as much as it is the fungibility, the movability, and the storage of energy today. In India, where I come from, the cost of producing renewable power has gone down tremendously, but I think the problem, like in other countries, is we don't have the means of efficiently storing it and then using it when the requirement is. So I don't know much about batteries. I want you guys to teach me. You both are the experts. But before we begin, maybe you can give me a couple of minutes about yourself so our audience gets to know you. Would you like to go first?
- HRHenning Rath
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Or you? Either.
- HRHenning Rath
I, I can start. Uh, Nikhil, thanks, uh, first of all for inviting me. Uh, much appreciated. Uh, out of the beautiful city of Dalian. World Economic Forum just mentioned, uh- [laughs]
- NKNikhil Kamath
[laughs]
- HRHenning Rath
They, uh, uh, luckily gave us here the room. So I'm Henning, um, originally hailing from Germany. Uh, I'm a mechanical engineer, um, an economist by trade, [lips smack] and I build my entire life basically infrastructure projects. I left Germany around, uh, nearly 20 years ago, moved to Australia, worked for a mining company, then went to India, built a steel plant, uh, close to Kolkata. Um, spent a lot of time in, uh, in Indonesia, uh, then came to China, studied in the US, and in the past 15 years, um, I've been working in China.
- NKNikhil Kamath
I was just asking him outside, how does it feel to be a White man in China? Good, right? Good. Of course.
- HRHenning Rath
Well, you know, I, I feel very comfortable in China.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- HRHenning Rath
Um, I'm... My family lives here.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- HRHenning Rath
My daughter goes to school. It is safe. It is, uh... The, the-- people are friendly. Um, food is amazing. Yeah. Um, so I feel great. Yeah.
- 6:45 – 12:14
China's bet on chemistries beyond lithium
- HRHenning Rath
Mm.
- KTKun Tang
So I worked there for five years, and I got my, uh, supervisor's call to ask me to whether I was, uh, willing to join a startup. So because my, uh, uh, my classmate or supervisor has a, a new technology called sodium battery when it reach to almost come from lab to the pilot production. So they asked me to work as a full-time CEO, because the researcher cannot-
- HRHenning Rath
Right
- KTKun Tang
... join as a run the business.
- HRHenning Rath
Right.
- KTKun Tang
So I'm the s- uh, several guy who, who not going in the academic as a professor, postdoc, postdoc professor way. So I go to the industry. So th- they asked me whether I have, uh, interest on that. So I got a quick check. I think sodium is amazing. I think the must be future. At that time, is, I mean, the, there's no decent price program.
- HRHenning Rath
Mm.
- KTKun Tang
It's quite low. But we believe that, uh, because my supervisor is a very famous, uh, academician in China, Professor Li Yuan Cheng. So-
- NKNikhil Kamath
The father of Chinese battery.
- KTKun Tang
Oh, you know this, yes, yes.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KTKun Tang
So, uh, but he, he doesn't like that name. [laughs]
- HRHenning Rath
Yeah. [laughs]
- KTKun Tang
People will call him that, but, uh, he thinks that's a kind of praise, something like that. And, uh, uh, he's... as- I think he's kind of, we can call him as a, a strategic, uh, scientist. He saw that China should works on the next generation, uh, batteries bes- beyond lithium, so he choose two, uh, different aspects. So one is a sodium battery. It's low cost, more abundant and, uh, uh, resources.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Wasn't he the father of lithium battery?
- KTKun Tang
Sorry, right?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Wasn't he, like, popular for lithium batteries?
- KTKun Tang
He do not like the name you call him as-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Ah, okay.
- KTKun Tang
... a Chinese
- HRHenning Rath
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- KTKun Tang
But actually he, he's, uh-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- KTKun Tang
... uh, in, in China... But you know, for lithium batteries, we have Nobel Prize have gave three, a, a very famous, uh, uh, scientist in, in, you know, Goodenough, professor, and for Japanese one, uh, one American one. So s- that's the, that's the fath- really we call the father of lithium batteries.
- HRHenning Rath
Think there were Nobel Prizes for the anode, the cathode, uh, like-
- KTKun Tang
And the, the battery in, in Japan
- HRHenning Rath
... exactly. Yeah.
- KTKun Tang
Yeah, they makes the final products, actually.
- HRHenning Rath
Mm.
- KTKun Tang
And as, uh, keep following that. So I, there, at that time we have, actually we have two startups. One is works on sodium battery, one was on the solid state batteries. So I choose, uh, sodium one, so it works too long. So now our company now is, uh, about 10 years old, so quite big. We have more than 600 people.
- 12:14 – 17:15
Cell chemistry and the trade-offs it forces
- KTKun Tang
Yeah. I ha- I had some information understanding about the battery things. Uh, yeah, I agree. That's, that's a kind of energy storage and store it as e- electric energies. And most when mentioned, uh, battery is chemistry. So you know that compressed air is we cannot c- can't call it battery.
- HRHenning Rath
Yeah.
- KTKun Tang
So it's kind of chemistry reactions. Like you, when you mentioned about the lithium battery, uh, ion nickel, um, my sodium, it's kind of like the pump. Just like the pump, you pump, pump the gravity energy to there and come down. For the battery things is you charge the, uh, ion from lower energy states to higher energy states. You f- you force them to go higher, and then it's charged. Then, uh, when we connect the outside circuit so the electrons goes back and the, from higher parts just like the water draw down to the end. So that's the kind of energy storage is similar with the pump water. Yes.
- NKNikhil Kamath
So a chemical battery. Okay, so if the electrolyzer is liquid-
- KTKun Tang
Mm-hmm
- NKNikhil Kamath
... is it a certain kind of battery? Would you call a solid state battery where the electrolyzer is not liquid and a solid a different thing? Or does it fit into the same universe?
- HRHenning Rath
For me, it's a battery.
- KTKun Tang
Yeah, it's the same. No matter what kind of electrolyte-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- KTKun Tang
... whether the liquid or solid, it's, it's, that's electrolytes only pass ion, pass the lithium ion, sodium ion, and, and maybe hydrogen, some, some like that. But the outside is a electron. So the ion goes from inside. O- outside goes electron. They come to- together, minus with the-
- NKNikhil Kamath
So in simple words, if I am generating energy doing something, a battery does not generate energy. I have the sun or the wind or the water or-
- HRHenning Rath
Mm-hmm
- NKNikhil Kamath
... a fossil fuel. I generate energy. I don't need it now. The battery is a medium where I can store that energy till I need it.
- KTKun Tang
Correct.
- HRHenning Rath
Absolutely.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah. And what makes a good battery? I've written down things like capacity, density of energy, power density, voltage, cycle life, C-rate. Uh, can you-
- HRHenning Rath
That's pretty much it. [laughs]
- NKNikhil Kamath
[laughs] Can you, can you tell me how these work? Like, I know the headings, I don't know the details.
- HRHenning Rath
Um, yeah, sure. I mean, do you want to go first or...
- KTKun Tang
Uh, you can go first. I can-
- HRHenning Rath
Yeah. For me, uh, there are physical principles and, uh, trade-offs. You know, uh, um, there, there's energy density, there's cycle lifetime, there's degradation. Um, and depend on what kind of battery you need to develop, uh, you need to adjust your chemistry, and you need to twitch and tweak, uh, basically in your R&D, what do you, what are you aiming for? Do you want to aim now for a, a battery cell that can have very long life cycles and discharge and charge batteries over a very long period of time? Or do you want to have a high power cell that can discharge a very high current, um, um, during a very short period of time? So there's no perfect battery-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- HRHenning Rath
... but there's always a perfect match for its application. And we, in, in, in, in the design of the cells, we are playing basically between those, those trade-offs.
- NKNikhil Kamath
So if one were to assume the biggest utility for batteries is, A, mobility, vehicles, and, B, power generation. Is that right? Mobility and power generation?
- HRHenning Rath
Yeah. Uh, storage, let's say.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah. P- power storage-
- HRHenning Rath
Yeah
- NKNikhil Kamath
... after generation. What kind of batteries are suitable to that?
- HRHenning Rath
So for mobility, I think right now it's LFP, huh? Um, previously it was MNC. Um, right now the, most of the industry moved to LFP. Um-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Can you explain what LFP is?
- 17:15 – 22:44
Thermal runaway and the limits of LFP
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- HRHenning Rath
So there's a thing we call a thermal runaway. So thermal runaway, if you would imagine this, uh, I think, you know, you are a, a scientist or you can explain it better, but in my words it's kind of imagine your body has a fever.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- HRHenning Rath
Something is wrong. You go-- You caught a virus. And, uh, you're getting over 40 degrees and you feel very bad, but normally your body can, uh, can manage, right? It brings down the fever, it triggers, and it heals. In a battery, if something goes wrong in a battery, you have a short cut or a penetration from outside or whatever it is, you have, or you're overheated, the battery basically gets a fever and it cannot repair itself anymore. It goes into what we call a thermal runaway. The temperature is increasing uncontrolled, the pressure is increasing uncontrolled, and then it basically bursts into fire and it propagates probably the entire car, the entire container. That is a risk of, of lithium iron phosphate chemistry, and this is I think where both of us are actually aiming for, creating the next generation of battery that is safer, more durable, and plays with the trade-offs of the battery in a different way.
- NKNikhil Kamath
And is there no way to stop this in a LFP? I'm assuming every vehicle from a Tesla to a B- BYD-
- HRHenning Rath
Mm-hmm
- NKNikhil Kamath
... is running on LFPs largely.
- HRHenning Rath
Yes.
- NKNikhil Kamath
And like Henning mentioned, conveniently for me, that-
- HRHenning Rath
When the battery gets a fever, there's no way to stop it above a certain temperature?
- KTKun Tang
Uh, I guess there's a lot of technology working on that. They try to stop, but actually, uh, it's hard because they're kind of with self-accelerat- accelerate the... Because the heat goes on, there's more reactions happens, so keep going. Once you pass the point-
- HRHenning Rath
Once you pass the tipping point of fever-
- KTKun Tang
Yes, yes
- HRHenning Rath
... it skyrocket
- KTKun Tang
... it goes high. And but for LFP, currently it's dominant, yeah, I think you are quite right, because of cost. So before it, we first, uh, we use NMC. We use nickel, cobalt-
- HRHenning Rath
Mm-hmm
- KTKun Tang
... uh, the manganese. Uh, it, we can dream, uh, drive higher energy density by use these kind of, uh, expensive el- elements. Uh, but now w- we have new technology use, we call it C2P-
- HRHenning Rath
Mm-hmm
- KTKun Tang
... to, to sell to, to the whole structure since we... So the LFP can, you can drive a LFP-driven car to up to 100, 1,000 kilometers-
- HRHenning Rath
Mm-hmm
- KTKun Tang
... long range. So that's enough for most of the EV driven range.
- HRHenning Rath
You're talking about a new kind of battery now.
- KTKun Tang
No, L- LFP.
- HRHenning Rath
That is LFP existing.
- KTKun Tang
LFP.
- HRHenning Rath
Okay.
- KTKun Tang
So that's why it's dominant now.
- HRHenning Rath
Mm-hmm.
- KTKun Tang
But the problem is that, uh, safety issue, let's say. That's why people, why in this lithium battery field, they are working on solid state batteries. They want to decrease the s- s- solvent inside the, like a-
- HRHenning Rath
Is that why the issue, the solvent is the thing that heats up?
- 22:44 – 27:07
Production quality and how long a battery lasts
- HRHenning Rath
on.
- KTKun Tang
I, I want, I have, I have one information about not only, we cannot only rely on this kind of LFP. It depends who produce it.
- HRHenning Rath
Mm.
- KTKun Tang
Yes. That is a second factor.
- HRHenning Rath
So it's, it's a very, the sec- uh, tier two, uh, Chinese companies, the ratio of their safety issues always much higher than top, like BYD, like, uh, CTL.
- KTKun Tang
Mm.
- HRHenning Rath
So that's why CTL always sell about, uh, 10% expensive than the tier two. So that's, that's also, so that means the, the safety issue is not only related to this kind of chemistry-
- KTKun Tang
Mm
- HRHenning Rath
... really on the production quality. On the quality.
- KTKun Tang
Yeah.
- HRHenning Rath
And what's the life of these batteries? I know looking at the market for used cars, used electric cars are generally cheaper than used IC cars.
- KTKun Tang
Yeah.
- HRHenning Rath
So how long do these LFPs last?
- KTKun Tang
Well, it, uh, also depends where you get the batteries from, what kind of, uh-
- HRHenning Rath
Yeah, but a Tesla
- KTKun Tang
... let's say a very, very average. So if you, um, buy, um, a large scale stationary storage right now, you would get roughly 10, 10,000 cycles out of this. So you charge it, um, up and you discharge it 10,000 times until the battery needs argumentation. It needs a refresh. So the, the battery would have, uh, a rest capacity of roughly 60% after 10,000 times charging.
- HRHenning Rath
But after 1,000 cycles, will the battery be able to hold lesser energy?
- KTKun Tang
60%.
- HRHenning Rath
Uh, after 1,000?
- KTKun Tang
10, 10,000.
- HRHenning Rath
That, that, that-
- KTKun Tang
And in between 1,000 and 10,000, does it go down? Is it a curve?
- HRHenning Rath
There's a degradation curve, yeah.
- KTKun Tang
Yeah, a degrading curve. And also it depends on the app- applications.
- HRHenning Rath
Yes.
- KTKun Tang
Actually, for Tesla, with its, its quality is that, because his, uh, guarantee, uh, quality is about, uh, 3,000 miles, 3, uh, 30,000 miles, something like that, so that- Only request the battery cycle for less than one-- One cycle is, is enough for his guaranteed miles. But for any storage, we need more than ten sun cycles. So it's depend on the app-
- HRHenning Rath
They're very different
- KTKun Tang
... the same chemistry, uh, you can have different type, uh, cells, so that's short range, uh, high power, long cycle life. Uh, even you can ask for more safe LFP, just the cost issue, and we can make it higher cost.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Henning, since you've lived here for fifteen years, and Tang, you're from here, how did BYD go into becoming a car company and become so large so quickly? What percentage of building a car company is knowing how to make a battery today? An electric car company.
- KTKun Tang
So I answer first?
- 27:07 – 33:54
Why China won the electric car
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah. See, after my trip in China, I want to go back to India and start a business.
- KTKun Tang
Mm-hmm.
- NKNikhil Kamath
I'm trying to think: What should I start? Should it be a electric car company? Should it be a battery company? So I'm asking you questions also from that lens.
- HRHenning Rath
Mm.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Do you think there's an opportunity to start a electric car company today?
- HRHenning Rath
I think, you know, when it comes to electric car company, and, you know, me being German, I'm, uh-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- HRHenning Rath
... uh-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- HRHenning Rath
... I have probably a, a different view on this.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- HRHenning Rath
Um-
- NKNikhil Kamath
You are wrong.
- HRHenning Rath
Absolutely.
- NKNikhil Kamath
[laughs]
- HRHenning Rath
[laughs] So the, the, the Germans, I think, innovated, uh, on the cars-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- HRHenning Rath
... too slow.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- HRHenning Rath
They were captured in their own think tank, um, and they were all competed by China.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- HRHenning Rath
So China right now has a concept that we call Tier 0 suppliers.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- HRHenning Rath
You can basically order a NIO, uh, uh, Type 1 car-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- HRHenning Rath
... and then you can design it as you like, and, uh, you get it manufactured, and then you have your own car company.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- HRHenning Rath
But how vertically, uh, integrated are you?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- HRHenning Rath
Basically zero, huh?
- 33:54 – 38:50
Decoupling a battery business from lithium and rare earths
- HRHenning Rath
Some. Yeah. So to answer your question-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- HRHenning Rath
... would I, uh, uh, start a, a car company? No, I wouldn't.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm-hmm.
- HRHenning Rath
I would start a battery company.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- HRHenning Rath
Because what, what India needs is certain, let's call it energy independence.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- HRHenning Rath
Right? When you come, uh, to battery cells, uh, the battery cells that are available, um, are consists of rare earths and lithium. All materials are-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Lithium cells have a lot of rare earth?
- HRHenning Rath
Yes. Define a lot, but you need it.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Like, what is the cost of creating a generic battery size of lithium, and what percentage of that cost is rare earth?
- KTKun Tang
Lithium c- cost, I think, uh, 10% of the whole-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Rare earth is 10% of the whole cell?
- KTKun Tang
Whole cell, yes. Less than 10%, but it depends on the price of lithium carbonate.
- HRHenning Rath
Depends.
- NKNikhil Kamath
We've been reviewing, like, a rare earth company in India to invest in. It's still a relatively new business there. Yeah, so somewhere they could get to the oxide level, but the end product would always be so much more expensive than what-
- HRHenning Rath
Mm
- NKNikhil Kamath
... they can import from China, that it wasn't seeming feasible. Now, who bears the burden? Say I start a battery company in India, and I use rare earth from India. The cost will be so much higher today-
- HRHenning Rath
See, that's, that's where I'm after. D- don't start a battery company-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Uh
- HRHenning Rath
... where you need rare earths. Decouple your supply chain from lithium and rare earths. Create a new battery technology that you can actually supply with your local markets available. You know, uh, I'm the CEO of EnerVenue.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- HRHenning Rath
And for example, our, uh, chemistry, we use nickel, we use steel, we use water-based electrolyte, and a little bit of glass fiber. That's it what you need in order to create this battery. So if I would, uh, create a battery company, create a battery company that serves local for local markets, because geopolitics is not gonna be better in the next 10 to 15 years. So the world... You know, I'm 38 this year. I'm not sure about you guys.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Same age.
- HRHenning Rath
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Thirty-nine.
- KTKun Tang
I'm older. [laughs]
- NKNikhil Kamath
[laughs]
- HRHenning Rath
But I grew up in a, in a world where globalization was thriving.
- 38:50 – 43:51
Sodium's cost advantage and its energy density ceiling
- NKNikhil Kamath
come up next?
- KTKun Tang
Yes, we are working on sodium battery. That's also, uh, in the quite interest on that because it's, we do not depend on the lithium, because lithium is not evenly distributed on the Earth. So it's most on South Africa. So there's a lot of, uh, challenge when do the lithium mining things. Uh, a lot of country take it as a national interest now, more and more important. Uh, uh, a session this afternoon, Robin Zeng in Citadel, Citadel just mentioned that. So that, they have problem that, uh, uh, there's some, some country will say the lithium mining will not, uh, allowed to export anymore.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KTKun Tang
Just depends on that. So sodium is everywhere. So-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah, China said they'll stop it in '25, and then they extended the deadline, right?
- KTKun Tang
Yeah. Also the lithium-
- HRHenning Rath
It's, it's hard to predict-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- HRHenning Rath
... as geopolitics is unpredictable.
- KTKun Tang
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
It probably depends on Trump.
- KTKun Tang
And also the lithium refining is, uh, mostly in China, actually.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KTKun Tang
So the lithium refining is, is also critical.
- NKNikhil Kamath
So what do you need in a sodium battery? What are-
- KTKun Tang
So we just need sodium, sodium carbonates, so everywhere in salt.
- NKNikhil Kamath
And what are the pros and what are the cons?
- KTKun Tang
The pros is the low cost. It's abundant. So the price of the cobalt, uh, uh, sodium carbonates is one tenth of the lithium carbonates.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Okay. Low cost?
- KTKun Tang
And also it's, it's flat. No, no, no, no variation.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Low cost, no fire?
- KTKun Tang
And, uh, higher safety. We cannot say it's-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm. What is the electrolyte? It's not water.
- KTKun Tang
We, we use, uh, similar, uh, solvent with the lithium ion.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Okay.
- KTKun Tang
So that we, we also, that's what I mentioned about the, the higher energy density, the s- more safety issues. When we do a sodium battery, uh, in the first several years because of the energy density about 120 less than LFP, so you can penetrate and do anything safety test.
- HRHenning Rath
That's it.
- KTKun Tang
It all passed. It is, it's so stable. But when we raise the, during the improvement, we increase the energy density close to LFP, there are some safety issue comes. So I think this kind of trade-off of the-
- NKNikhil Kamath
That's the trade-off, low energy density.
- KTKun Tang
Yeah. So-
- 43:51 – 48:17
Recycling nickel and renting the metal
- NKNikhil Kamath
Is recycling a good business for me to start?
- HRHenning Rath
So if you would scale the EnerVenue bat- EnerVenue battery in India, absolutely, um, because, uh, our battery, as I mentioned earlier, uh, our electrodes are made out of nickel.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- HRHenning Rath
And the nickel, um, is there-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Also sounds like my name. Good idea.
- HRHenning Rath
Yeah, nickel makes nickel.
- NKNikhil Kamath
[laughs]
- HRHenning Rath
[laughs] Um-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- HRHenning Rath
... so the nickel is there.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- HRHenning Rath
So, uh, after 30 years of lifetime-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- HRHenning Rath
... um, you can just, uh, uh, 80%, uh, uh, sorry, uh, 98%, uh, depending, um, on which process, but you can reclaim most of the nickel and make the electrodes again and re- deploy it, so it's a real circular economy.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm. Is this something EnerVenue will do if we come in as a JV partner and try to build in India?
- HRHenning Rath
Um, we actually aim for not, uh, selling the nickel, uh, uh, to the customer.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- HRHenning Rath
So it's a, it's a business model that we are working on, but we are safeguarding basically the nickel in a, what we call a special purpose vehicle.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- HRHenning Rath
Um, and you buy the battery from us-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- HRHenning Rath
... but you rent the nickel from us, and after the le- lifetime, we are taking back the batteries. We recycle it, and then we give you a new one if you want.
- NKNikhil Kamath
I don't know. Does India have a lot of nickel?
- KTKun Tang
That's, that's a similar way, Sir, why don't you things.
- HRHenning Rath
Similar with nickel.
- KTKun Tang
Yeah, flow battery. Yes.
- HRHenning Rath
Flow battery.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Which country is rich in nickel?
- HRHenning Rath
Indonesia.
- KTKun Tang
Yeah. Most are from Indonesia.
- 48:17 – 54:05
Where generation, storage and demand should sit
- NKNikhil Kamath
So I want to start a business in energy transition.
- KTKun Tang
Mm-hmm.
- NKNikhil Kamath
We've established that. I will generate energy using renewable.
- KTKun Tang
Mm-hmm.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Now, before that energy hits wherever my batteries are stored, I need to transmit that energy through the grid, which is fairly inefficient. Do you think of business opportunities in that as well?
- KTKun Tang
I, I think it's a policy de- dependent.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right. What if the grid is not nationalized and it's owned by private enterprise, the grid to transfer power within a country?
- HRHenning Rath
I think the target always must be have your generation as close as possible to your consumer-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- HRHenning Rath
... and balance, uh, uh, your energy demand with batteries as close as possible to your data center.
- NKNikhil Kamath
And if you were-
- HRHenning Rath
That is the most efficient way.
- NKNikhil Kamath
And if you were to really go upstream, do you think if I had to bet on generating energy, not today, but for the next 10 years, should I bet on nuclear, solar or wind or hydro?
- HRHenning Rath
If those were my options
- KTKun Tang
Nuclear is far away, guys
- HRHenning Rath
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Nuclear is far?
- KTKun Tang
Yeah. I mean, mean the, I mean, the new condensed, some new nuclear, something controlled. It's not a traditional nuclear. I don't know whether India has a nuclear generation.
- NKNikhil Kamath
It has traditionally nuclear generation-
- KTKun Tang
Traditional generation
- NKNikhil Kamath
... but the new kinds of nuclear that we have researched, the little bit that we have-
- KTKun Tang
And a fusion, has a, a word of fusion
- NKNikhil Kamath
... but those seem like as far or further away from the other kind of battery, solid state battery that you spoke about. I don't think they're happening in the next decade.
- HRHenning Rath
I think fusion-
- KTKun Tang
Batteries more close
- HRHenning Rath
... I think fusion is very far away. I think-
- KTKun Tang
50 years maybe
- NKNikhil Kamath
Even SMRs are very, very far away, right?
- HRHenning Rath
Yeah. It's, um, like the small nuclear reactors, uh, is super cost, uh-
- NKNikhil Kamath
It costs five times-
- 54:05 – 1:00:19
Decentralization and the car as a grid battery
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- HRHenning Rath
Uh, if you... I- it, uh, it all boils back to electrons, right?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- HRHenning Rath
If you, if you're creating decentralized, um, um, uh, computation, you solve a massive issue. You know, later, uh, previously we talked about this, uh, very interesting where, um, I believe that the, a car in the future is-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- HRHenning Rath
... you know, for me a car is a driving battery, right?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- HRHenning Rath
So once you plug it in-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- HRHenning Rath
... and your, uh, y- your utilization of average car is, like, uh, 2% or so, right?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- HRHenning Rath
So 98% of the time it's standing in front of your home, you plug it in, and you stabilize the grid with your car.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- HRHenning Rath
In the same time, you have computational chips in the car that are running idle.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Uh-huh.
- HRHenning Rath
So why not, uh, having your car as a micro data center in front of your home-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- HRHenning Rath
... uh, solving computational issues and being part of a decentralized data center v-
- NKNikhil Kamath
I think, I think-
- HRHenning Rath
... energy stabilizer
- NKNikhil Kamath
... I think Elon, Elon spoke about this-
- KTKun Tang
I just got the-
- NKNikhil Kamath
... for Tesla
- KTKun Tang
... the thought every car is a token factory.
- HRHenning Rath
Yeah, exactly, right? We, we earlier talked about this, right?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah.
- HRHenning Rath
It makes so much sense to me, uh, where we are not g- going back into... This is industrial- industrialization age, right?
- KTKun Tang
It's a distributed
- HRHenning Rath
... uh, we are, we are centralizing everything. Every cen- city has one big coal fire power plant 50 years ago, right?
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- 1:00:19 – 1:05:30
Three super cycles and AI's power demand
- HRHenning Rath
s- the, there's the supply and demand issue, and I think in three super cycles. Number one, it is electrification.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- HRHenning Rath
We need energy. So the big first super cycle is energy.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- HRHenning Rath
We have higher demand than supply. That is always a nice business to be in. Second one is manufacturing. We have higher demand than supply of more or less everything that we manufacture. Um, a lot of things, be it minerals, um, um, robots, whatever you want, uh, uh, there's-
- NKNikhil Kamath
We have, we have a shortage of manufacturing input products, not output. Everybody in China seems to be talking about overcapacity, and they have to find a new market.
- HRHenning Rath
You have overcapacities in certain products, but you have undercapacity in manufacturing capabilities.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- HRHenning Rath
That's a different thing, right?
- KTKun Tang
Yeah, manufacturing.
- HRHenning Rath
So you need to have manufacturing capabilities that basically automate manufacturing processes in order to match supply and demand of markets.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- HRHenning Rath
And the third super cycle is AI.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- HRHenning Rath
And once you have enough computation, you can basically do everything. So combine all of these three super cycles. Let's imagine for a second you have abundant energy, you have abundant manufacturing capacity, and you have abundant, uh, computational power. You can do basically everything. And if I would be now a young, uh, entrepreneur, it doesn't matter where in the world, whether in India, in Europe, in Africa, in the US-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- HRHenning Rath
... I would go into one of these three things. Understand that the geopolitics is gonna be tricky.
- NKNikhil Kamath
So electrification-
- HRHenning Rath
To decouple-
- NKNikhil Kamath
... AI
- HRHenning Rath
... electrification-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Manufacturing
- HRHenning Rath
... ener- in energy, manufacturing, AI, and make sure you are combining these three things together, that you find a product market fit-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm
- HRHenning Rath
... that you can play on global scale, and you will kill it for sure.
- NKNikhil Kamath
What do you think of AI? Last question to both of you. I think we're out of time, right?
- KTKun Tang
Uh, yeah. I think AI-driven has got a lot of expanding infrastructure construction.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KTKun Tang
It's a good opportunity for the energy storage, for batteries.
- HRHenning Rath
Mm.
- 1:05:30 – 1:10:09
Automation, jobs and China's social contract
- KTKun Tang
we accept it.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Well, let me ask you a practical question. All these people who work in manufacturing in India, in, in China, are they not worried that their jobs will be taken by robots tomorrow using AI, and they will no longer be required?
- KTKun Tang
For the manufacturing things, there's not so many. But now for the, uh, software-
- NKNikhil Kamath
People should be scared, no?
- HRHenning Rath
I think, uh, uh, it is, it is a mixture from my point of view. There's an excitement of a new technology-
- NKNikhil Kamath
Yeah
- HRHenning Rath
... and we feel the power of what it can actually move.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- HRHenning Rath
But of course, it always comes also with a certain anxiety. I can feel it in myself, right? That there is something coming that I cannot really explain yet, and I cannot foresee actually what the impact will be. But I would say the, in China, the excitement is outpacing the anxiety.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- HRHenning Rath
And I think that is why everybody is pushing to, to the goal, huh?
- KTKun Tang
Yeah. I think I c- c- get a bit further. It's kind of like you come to the socialism.
- HRHenning Rath
Mm.
- KTKun Tang
Not everyone work, but only minority works for the, they give a lot of productions.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Mm.
- KTKun Tang
And maybe other guys, you won't work such a long time.
- HRHenning Rath
Probably.
- KTKun Tang
Yeah. The government-
- NKNikhil Kamath
That's a, that's a interesting idea if the people believe the government will divide the-
- HRHenning Rath
Yeah
- NKNikhil Kamath
... divide the increased productivity amongst the population and everybody does better. America, on the other end, is very capitalistic in nature, so each person who partakes in the productivity increase, only he benefits. Maybe that's why, psychologically? Right?
- HRHenning Rath
Uh, for me, it's hard to tell. I think it's, you know, we still have a huge, uh, gap between rich and poor in China.
- KTKun Tang
Yeah.
- HRHenning Rath
Right? Um, so this, this whole, uh, distribution that everybody becomes wealthy is, uh, not really working. Everybody became wealthier, but it's not very equal.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Right.
- HRHenning Rath
Um, but, uh, for me, it's still the, the excitement outpaces anxiety, and that's why everybody's kind of up for it and rooting for it and fighting for it.
- KTKun Tang
Yeah.
- NKNikhil Kamath
Hmm. I don't know if you guys can answer this. If, if you don't want to, you can choose to say no, but do you think China is making a turn back towards the most, towards a more socialistic path in, in the last couple of years? It appears that way in the news from the outside.
- KTKun Tang
Sorry, I, I didn't, didn't get it.
- HRHenning Rath
Is, uh, basically, your question is are we going back to Mao Zedong?
Episode duration: 1:10:09
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