Tira, Bombay Shaving Co., Inde Wild | WTF is Fueling India’s Beauty & Skincare Revolution? | Ep. 25

Bhakti Modi 0:00 hair care as personal care.

Diipa Khosla 0:01 Yeah, you're talking personal care-

Shantanu Deshpande 0:02 Personal care.

Bhakti Modi 0:02 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 0:02 So now, so now this is the- so, so now the hair care is seven billion-

Diipa Khosla 0:05 We play in the other hair care. [laughing]

Bhakti Modi 0:05 The skincare.

Shantanu Deshpande 0:06 Ah, so hair care is seven to eight billion.

Bhakti Modi 0:08 [laughing]

Shantanu Deshpande 0:08 Of which majority is oiled by-

Diipa Khosla 0:09 [laughing] You're confusing us.

Bhakti Modi 0:11 You confused about personal care.

Diipa Khosla 0:11 You're personal care, hair care.

Shantanu Deshpande 0:13 No, these-

Nikhil Kamath 0:13 I want to know the breakup of skincare, makeup, hair, fragrance. [upbeat music] Ready? Start.

Bhakti Modi 0:50 I thought you would've done a bunch of interviews by now. No, not too many. Few you have done.

Shantanu Deshpande 0:54 Actually-

Bhakti Modi 0:54 Yeah, few, but- The typical CNBC. I've actually never done any CNB... I've never done any, like, news things. Yeah. I've never done any, like, mm, just like, um, we just did, like, Vogue Beauty honors right now, so- Uh. Like, I'll show up there. That's my... That's the extent.

Nikhil Kamath 1:13 Ah. I think we just have to wait for Deepa. [laughing]

Bhakti Modi 1:18 Deepa will arrive. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:20 You know her already?

Bhakti Modi 1:21 Yeah, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:22 Very well?

Bhakti Modi 1:22 Decently well.

Nikhil Kamath 1:24 We made a plan to catch up last week, but we couldn't, so I've never met her. Yeah. I've never met her. Actually, I've never met Shantanu also.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:33 No, we only interact on WhatsApp.

Nikhil Kamath 1:35 Her brand is doing really well, no?

Bhakti Modi 1:36 Doing well, yes.

Nikhil Kamath 1:37 Like, crazy well?

Bhakti Modi 1:39 She is just launching, if I'm not wrong, in Sephora US. She's doing very well in Sephora UK. She's doing very well in India. So she's got in the right markets, I think. Her strategy for, like, and I think which is, uh, like, great for, like, any new founder also is, like, she focused very clearly on, like, one product, and-

Nikhil Kamath 2:01 Which is?

Bhakti Modi 2:01 ... which is her Champi hair oil, which I think is easily, like, 50 to 55% of her sales. Um-

Shantanu Deshpande 2:07 What's the price point?

Bhakti Modi 2:08 I think it's about 1,200 to 1,300 rupees, the big one. Um, the big, the, the big size, I think the 100 ml, and then it's about, I think, 900 for the smaller one.

Shantanu Deshpande 2:20 Oil is a tricky market.

Bhakti Modi 2:22 You know, but she-

Shantanu Deshpande 2:23 Hair oil is a tricky market

Bhakti Modi 2:23 ... her storytelling also has been really, really good.

Nikhil Kamath 2:27 Ready? Start.

Diipa Khosla 2:29 Is it the crew I know?

Bhakti Modi 2:31 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 2:31 Where are they? No, never mind. No, all good. Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 2:36 Yeah? So I know Bhakti

Nikhil Kamath 2:39 a bit already because of Bangalore, Bangalore.

Bhakti Modi 2:41 Yeah, the Bangalore connection. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 2:43 Yeah. Her husband is also a friend.

Shantanu Deshpande 2:45 Okay.

Nikhil Kamath 2:45 Uh, he's also a very talented musician, by the way.

Bhakti Modi 2:48 Yes. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 2:48 And he's in a band which practices-

Bhakti Modi 2:50 [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 2:51 ... like, 200 meters away from my apartment in Bangalore.

Bhakti Modi 2:53 Oh, God. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 2:54 And I've been to their jamming sessions.

Bhakti Modi 2:56 No way!

Nikhil Kamath 2:56 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 2:57 What's his name? What does he do?

Bhakti Modi 2:58 Tejas, Tejas Goenka, and, uh, he is, um, currently managing director of Tally Solutions-

Shantanu Deshpande 3:05 Okay

Bhakti Modi 3:05 ... so it's a family-run, uh, family-founded company. His granddad and, um, his father founded it, and it's a software company, so s- I think India's, uh, any, any, any mo- small and medium business in India will, you know, do all their invoicing, all their inventory on Tally, right? So I think-

Diipa Khosla 3:27 Yeah, we all use Tally.

Bhakti Modi 3:28 They... Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 3:29 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 3:29 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 3:29 It, it, it's just-

Diipa Khosla 3:30 Yeah

Bhakti Modi 3:30 ... it's, it's become a household name, and yeah, I think, uh, it's, uh, it's great to see because I come from a family that's, you know, where I've seen my father work in a professional environment, and then, you know, you kind of get the exposure to see someone on the other side, to see how, you know, you can carry on family legacy and, you know, build it into something that's modern, that's current, and also transcend different, uh, uh, perspectives. Yeah, so I think, uh, he's an engineer. Uh, we were- met, met in college, uh, University of Pennsylvania, and-

Diipa Khosla 4:04 Mm-hmm

Bhakti Modi 4:05 ... uh, we were friends, friends for very long and then, yeah, we got together so, um, yeah, so he took, he took this on, and I-

Nikhil Kamath 4:13 What do you mean got together?

Bhakti Modi 4:16 [laughing] Um, I think we, we decided that [laughing] we could do... We could be a lot more than friends, uh, at an, at another common friend's wedding, so I think that-

Shantanu Deshpande 4:25 With Tally, right?

Bhakti Modi 4:26 ... the, I think the pen-pen connect-

Diipa Khosla 4:27 Did you get the parents involved?

Bhakti Modi 4:28 I think the pen-pen connection worked, and yeah, our parents know each other as well, so that was a-

Diipa Khosla 4:33 Sure

Bhakti Modi 4:33 ... that was a bonus, but, uh, it was, uh, it was not a setup, so, uh, I, I like to say that, [laughing] uh, loud and clear. And, uh, yeah, so I think one day we decided that we've been friends for, uh, long enough, and, uh, yeah.

Diipa Khosla 4:47 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 4:47 That was it.

Diipa Khosla 4:47 We met in, in Amsterdam.

Bhakti Modi 4:48 Yeah, I was just telling-

Diipa Khosla 4:49 Yeah [laughing]

Bhakti Modi 4:51 ... Nikhil. [laughing]

Diipa Khosla 4:51 Bhakti and I know each other from Amsterdam.

Bhakti Modi 4:53 Amsterdam. [laughing]

Diipa Khosla 4:54 From... And that's it. We'll stop there.

Bhakti Modi 4:56 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 4:56 Nothing happened. [laughing]

Bhakti Modi 4:56 Nothing else happened.

Diipa Khosla 4:58 Nothing else happened. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 5:00 Now we have to know, what happened?

Shantanu Deshpande 5:01 [laughing]

Diipa Khosla 5:03 I made them too curious. Honestly, nothing happened-

Bhakti Modi 5:05 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 5:05 ... we just had a really good time on our-

Bhakti Modi 5:07 And we saw Deepa's beautiful home

Diipa Khosla 5:09 ... on our boat, and we just had fun. Girls' time.

Nikhil Kamath 5:13 How, how

Nikhil Kamath 5:14 did you get to Amsterdam? Where did you begin?

Diipa Khosla 5:16 How did I get to Am-

Nikhil Kamath 5:16 Starts with you because I know them, uh-

Diipa Khosla 5:19 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 5:19 ... I know her, but I'm gonna get to know you.

Diipa Khosla 5:20 I'm the new kid on the block.

Nikhil Kamath 5:22 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 5:22 Um, yes, Amsterdam. Okay, let's just backwards. So just Punjabi family, born in Delhi, and then Mom and Dad are both working very hard, so at one point they put us in boarding school in Ooty. I went to this fantastic... I was just talking on the way here, as well, that pe- boarding schools have a pretty bad rep.

Bhakti Modi 5:40 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 5:40 I had the best time.

Bhakti Modi 5:42 Oh.

Diipa Khosla 5:42 Like, and I feel like anybody who comes from boarding school, ask them, they've had the best time.

Shantanu Deshpande 5:46 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 5:46 So boarding school kid, um, it was an international school.

5:50 ... I didn't speak English, actually, when I got into the boarding school. Hindi was my main language, and then now my Hindi sucks [chuckles] and my English is the main language, um-

Speaker 5:58 I never thought you were originally from India.

Diipa Khosla 6:00 Yeah, the, but this boarding school is literally like Harry Potter. You should look it up once. It's called Hebron School.

Speaker 6:06 Okay.

Diipa Khosla 6:07 Do you know the main garden of Ooty? You take one side road, and you enter into this insane world. And I know maybe I'm, like, romanticizing it now-

Speaker 6:17 [chuckles]

Diipa Khosla 6:17 ... but it literally, our dining hall had long tables like Harry Potter, and we had prefects, and it was this very British school. Uh, like, my teachers were from New Zealand and Korea and, and the US, and it was this fantastic, uh, upbringing. So after that, um, [lips smack] my mom and dad started doing business. Like, like every Punjabi has a textile business, so we had a textile business [chuckles] where we were making ski outfits for companies in Switzerland and in Netherlands. And so when we finished school, they were like, "Okay, if you wanna study anywhere abroad, it has to be the Netherlands." And I'm like: Where on earth- [laughing]

Speaker 6:55 [laughing]

Diipa Khosla 6:55 ... is the Netherlands? Like, and then did a little bit of research. I'm like, "Oh, my God, it looks like a sin city. I don't know if I wanna go there. Do they speak English there? Like, what's going on?" Mom and Dad were like, "No, we have a base there, so if you wanna go, you can go there." Um, did a little research, found an amazing bachelor's kind of university there. Um, and, um, turned out it was a really fun experience, and as kind of, you know, closed off and Christian and very rule-abiding my boarding school was, Amsterdam was the, the other opposite. So I always look at my life in these three phases, almost. Like, phase one of me being a really, like, Indian-Indian girl, went to KV, like, spoke Hindi, was as, like, you know, with the plaits and oil-in-my-hair type, like, typical. Then phase two was basically in Hebron, where this international world, like, just exploded, opened up to me, but still narrow-minded in a way. Um, and then phase three was Amsterdam, where just every walk of life, every culture, every open-minded philosophy, just... Uh, and I met my husband there, who you've met, of course. Um, and then I moved to London to do law for my master's. Um, [lips smack] but my husband and I, mm, at that point, boyfriend, got together. Um, and then while I was finishing my law school, Instagram, this world of content creation or, or whatever. Back then, it didn't even have a term. It was blogging, I think, and Instagram was just starting, that that path kind of found me. Um, and then I decided, very difficultly in an Indian family, to stop law, um, and start blogging. Um, and my mom was like-

Nikhil Kamath 8:41 How long back was this?

Diipa Khosla 8:41 10 years ago or so.

Speaker 8:43 Oh, wow!

Diipa Khosla 8:43 11 years ago. And my mom was like, "Absolutely not.

Nikhil Kamath 8:46 [chuckles]

Diipa Khosla 8:46 What is blogging? You're an academic student, straight A. You're not gonna get into this Instagram thing." And I was like: "Mom, trust me. The media landscape is changing. I can see something in the future is gonna happen here. This is right time, right place. Like, I need to be the first mover here. Like, this is gonna be big." Um, and this was, like, heydays of, like-

Speaker 9:06 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 9:07 ... just beginning Instagram days.

Speaker 9:09 Instagram.

Diipa Khosla 9:09 Yeah.

Speaker 9:09 It was literally, yeah, like, 10 years ago, 2015.

Diipa Khosla 9:11 Yeah, yeah. Um, and indeed, it was right time, right place, um, and I became kind of the first Desi who was globally doing it. Um, made some insane campaigns, the face of Maybelline, the face of Kerastase. Was on Piccadilly Circus, Times Square. Like, every big beauty partnership-

Speaker 9:30 Wow

Diipa Khosla 9:30 ... happened. And then, um, the pandemic happened. Um, and, and I think I realized I want more from this journey. By then, I'd done it for six years or so, uh, seven years, this whole Instagram world. As an academic, I was bored. I'm like, "Okay, I'm done. I've taken as many photos as one can," [laughing]

Speaker 9:50 [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 9:50 [chuckles]

Diipa Khosla 9:50 "and done as many videos as one can. I need the next challenge." And, um, always knew I was gonna get into business, always did. Like, Punjabi family, Dad put it in early, like, "You have to get into business. That's what we do." Uh, but I think I had it in me, too. Like, at age 12, I started my first business. I can't call it a business, but my first little endeavor was friendship bracelets, where [chuckles] I would get my entire class on it, and we would make friendship bracelets, and I would kind of market it, and they would make it. And, and, um, and so back then, already I knew this was gonna become something, this business mind of mine one day. Now, here we are.

Speaker 10:32 Wow.

Nikhil Kamath 10:32 Nice.

Diipa Khosla 10:33 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 10:34 What did you start first?

Diipa Khosla 10:36 What do you mean?

Nikhil Kamath 10:37 In terms of business.

Diipa Khosla 10:39 Inde Wild is my first business. Well, I can consider the personal brand a business in the way of how big the team is and how we kind of lead it, but I would say Inde Wild is, like, my first business.

Nikhil Kamath 10:51 And how long has it been?

Diipa Khosla 10:52 Three and a half years.

Nikhil Kamath 10:53 Nice.

Diipa Khosla 10:54 Yeah, it's been three and a half years.

Nikhil Kamath 10:55 What was the first product, like, the first...

Diipa Khosla 10:57 The first products were our two skin SKUs. Uh, we had the AM and the PM serum, which is basically like 12 serums in one, and the PM is like eight serums in one. So it... I call it, like, the T-shirt and jeans of your skincare, where you don't need the 12-step skincare routine. One product does it all. Um, [lips smack] and then the third one we launched, which is now the, the crazy viral one-

Speaker 11:21 I, I, I did a little PR for you [laughing] before this.

Diipa Khosla 11:23 [laughing] Is the Champi hair oil-

Nikhil Kamath 11:25 Awesome

Diipa Khosla 11:25 ... which has become the household product, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 11:28 And, and what percentage of your business is in India versus outside?

Diipa Khosla 11:32 Yeah, so that has been crazy. So when we launched, in the first nine months, Inde Wild became the first brand, um, to launch in the US, UK, and India. Like, that was, had never been done before, so-

Nikhil Kamath 11:43 And was your content background a big, like, a big steroidal push to, like-

Shantanu Deshpande 11:47 ... taking it out?

Diipa Khosla 11:48 100%. 100%. Like, I think, I always say that having a community of 2.5 million was the trampoline jump.

Shantanu Deshpande 11:56 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 11:56 Like, it, it gave the boost, but it's not obviously everything, but-

Shantanu Deshpande 12:00 Product matters, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 12:01 But-

Bhakti Modi 12:01 And you also built your community, I think, authentically. It took-

Diipa Khosla 12:04 Yes

Bhakti Modi 12:05 ... that time-

Diipa Khosla 12:05 Yes

Bhakti Modi 12:05 ... 'cause you were in the beauty space, so I think that-

Diipa Khosla 12:07 Yeah, yeah

Bhakti Modi 12:08 ... it's another fun buzzword, community.

Diipa Khosla 12:10 Community is everywhere now, and yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 12:13 Yeah. I really hope my investors hear this.

Bhakti Modi 12:14 [laughs]

Shantanu Deshpande 12:14 They're like, "Why do you do this podcast thing?" I'm like, "It really helps. No one talks about shaving, so I need to be in the center of conversation in some way."

Diipa Khosla 12:21 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 12:21 I can't-

Bhakti Modi 12:21 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 12:21 Because you started after the business started, right?

Shantanu Deshpande 12:24 Yeah, much later.

Diipa Khosla 12:25 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 12:25 So they're like, "Oh, this is like a hobby thing, and are you even serious about...?" I'm like, "No, but I, I don't have the media budgets of a Gillette or a Philips or whatever."

Diipa Khosla 12:32 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 12:33 Of course.

Shantanu Deshpande 12:33 So I need to be center of conversation. This is the lowest thing. Like, unlike beauty-

Diipa Khosla 12:36 Absolutely

Shantanu Deshpande 12:37 ... my business, zero conversation. Like, when was the last time you spoke about your razor to anyone? Unless it's an investment, no one, no men don't talk, women talk.

Nikhil Kamath 12:43 Maybe you should shave and then people will talk about. [laughs]

Shantanu Deshpande 12:46 [laughs] Me?

Nikhil Kamath 12:47 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 12:47 I have trimmers and shavers, so I need to do everything in this real estate.

Diipa Khosla 12:51 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 12:51 I shave my head, and I trim my beard.

Diipa Khosla 12:52 No, but I think the founder face, the creator face, has become such a common thing-

Bhakti Modi 12:58 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 12:58 ... in beauty now. Like, even Charlotte Tilbury was just a makeup artist-

Shantanu Deshpande 13:02 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 13:02 ... and then she literally became the face-

Bhakti Modi 13:04 Face

Diipa Khosla 13:04 ... of her brand, and that changed the marketing completely.

Shantanu Deshpande 13:07 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 13:07 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 13:07 You know, Rihanna, of course, we know. Celebrity brands, obviously, is the face of the brand, but even in the US now, brands exploding where their founders, after starting the brand, become public people-

Bhakti Modi 13:20 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 13:20 ... and start posting content, and-

Shantanu Deshpande 13:22 How could you, like, how much of your public persona has helped Zerodha, especially in a increasingly competitive world, right?

Nikhil Kamath 13:29 Mm.

Shantanu Deshpande 13:29 Are you seeing, like, like, a podcast does well, you suddenly get, like, a ton of views and then sign-ups go up, or?

Nikhil Kamath 13:36 I don't know if there's a direct correlation.

Shantanu Deshpande 13:38 You never thought about it?

Nikhil Kamath 13:40 I've thought about it, but have I been able to measure it? No. I hope it goes up.

Shantanu Deshpande 13:48 What's your, what's your hypothesis, like-

Diipa Khosla 13:48 It's been doing really well already. [laughs]

Nikhil Kamath 13:50 [laughs] See, our podcast is very, like, non-monetary in nature. We don't have advertising or sponsorship or any of that. In fact, I take money from people who are guests, and we do a charity project at the end of it.

Shantanu Deshpande 14:05 [laughs]

Nikhil Kamath 14:05 So it's the opposite of a capitalistic venture. The outcome we are very much going after that we want to elicit is, somebody goes and starts a business in what we speak about. So today, for example, beauty and skincare, I hope when this is out, some young kid or a few of them-

Shantanu Deshpande 14:26 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 14:27 ... pick up something that you said and start a business. So today's about that. Uh, if we can lay out a roadmap of what the opportunity is-

Diipa Khosla 14:38 Absolutely

Nikhil Kamath 14:38 ... in an industry that is growing very fast, and we will figure out how to give them the tools they require to solve for a bunch of things that you guys have very successfully-

Shantanu Deshpande 14:50 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 14:50 ... solved for. Bhakti can help most of all, she can just sell their product.

Shantanu Deshpande 14:54 Yeah. [laughs]

Nikhil Kamath 14:55 Right? So we'll put her-

Shantanu Deshpande 14:56 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 14:56 ... phone number and email at the end of it-

Shantanu Deshpande 14:58 [laughs]

Nikhil Kamath 14:58 ... so thousands of people can reach out to her.

Bhakti Modi 15:00 Absolutely. [laughs]

Diipa Khosla 15:02 Launch them. [laughs]

Bhakti Modi 15:03 Launch them. Please come and list.

Nikhil Kamath 15:05 But tell us about you next.

Shantanu Deshpande 15:08 Uh, no, first of all, thank you for having me here, and, you know, uh, so much to learn from all three of you in very different ways. Uh, grew up between... Uh, so born in the US. Uh, my dad was in IT. Uh, he was at TCS for many years, and then, uh, uh, so grew up between the US, Pune, Bangalore, Trivandrum, Pune. So Pune is where I was from fifth grade to 12th. Very cookie cutter approach to life. I went to engineering school in Nagpur, business school in IIM Lucknow. So 2005 to 2011, education. Joined McKinsey as a consultant in 2011 in the Bombay office. Uh, '11 to '16, I was at McKinsey.

Diipa Khosla 15:48 Long working hours?

Bhakti Modi 15:49 Wow!

Shantanu Deshpande 15:50 Yeah, it was-

Diipa Khosla 15:50 [laughs]

Shantanu Deshpande 15:51 ... but it was, it was the best first job, man.

Diipa Khosla 15:52 Yeah, that's true.

Shantanu Deshpande 15:53 It was the best first job.

Nikhil Kamath 15:53 Is consulting dying?

Shantanu Deshpande 15:55 Oh, 100%.

Nikhil Kamath 15:56 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 15:56 You know, like, dying is a strong word-

Bhakti Modi 15:58 Mm

Shantanu Deshpande 15:58 ... but if you don't evolve, like, what I did 10 years back is completely irrelevant today.

Nikhil Kamath 16:03 What can they evolve into?

Shantanu Deshpande 16:04 I think, um, I think consultants were hired for two things, and even today, those two things remain true. One is a bottom-up strategic understanding of a complex problem that any business has. So for Tira, for example, you can say: I need to know, for example, what's an inventory versus marketplace model? What are the SKUs? What's the growth rate like? You'll have really sharp analysts, and they'll probably have AI to help them come up-

Nikhil Kamath 16:30 But you don't need that anymore, right?

Shantanu Deshpande 16:32 You do.

Nikhil Kamath 16:32 You think?

Shantanu Deshpande 16:33 I think so.

Nikhil Kamath 16:34 AI doesn't solve for that?

Shantanu Deshpande 16:35 I don't think AI can help you frame problems-

Nikhil Kamath 16:37 Mm

Shantanu Deshpande 16:37 ... yet. Like, a business needs to know how to frame the problem and evolve, evolve the framing of the problem constantly. You can't just let them free for six months.

Nikhil Kamath 16:45 Give me a for instance. Let's say Deepa's brand. Am I saying that right, Deepa? Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 16:53 Yeah, it's just because of I-I-P-A-

Nikhil Kamath 16:55 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 16:55 ... N in numerology, my parents.

Nikhil Kamath 16:57 Okay.

Shantanu Deshpande 16:58 Let's say Deepa's brand, let's say Deep- Inde Wild, uh, has to, uh, launch a men's business in India, let's say.

Nikhil Kamath 17:06 Okay.

Shantanu Deshpande 17:07 And she's like, "Hey, I think I'm only serving half the market, and I think there is a certain amount of, um, institutional capabilities I can do to expand into the other half," for example. I'm just making this up.

Diipa Khosla 17:19 Mm.

Shantanu Deshpande 17:19 "I need someone to help me, help me figure this out, so there's a market expansion." Now, they will come back with, let's say, a one-week answer. Usually, at McKinsey, you'll have a one-week answer or two-week answer-

Nikhil Kamath 17:29 Mm

Shantanu Deshpande 17:29 ... where you put all the information together and put a hypothesis.

Nikhil Kamath 17:31 Mm.

Shantanu Deshpande 17:32 At that point, she has to start helping the team, or her team will have to start helping the team, figuring out, "Okay, we're going to double click here, 'cause this makes sense."

Nikhil Kamath 17:39 But what part of their answer will be useful to her that she can't find herself on the-

Diipa Khosla 17:43 And what can I not do in AI? Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 17:45 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 17:46 Like, market research I can do.

Shantanu Deshpande 17:47 For example, I, I, so I don't know. I have not been a consultant for 10 years, [laughs] so-

Bhakti Modi 17:50 [laughs]

Diipa Khosla 17:50 [laughs]

Shantanu Deshpande 17:51 ... it's really hard, but-

Diipa Khosla 17:52 You're putting him on the spot.

Shantanu Deshpande 17:52 So for example, I will-

Nikhil Kamath 17:54 Yeah

Shantanu Deshpande 17:54 ... at McKinsey, we would immediately know that 20 times this has happened in the world.... mm, immediately get five partners on the phone from Germany, Amsterdam, Brazil-

Nikhil Kamath 18:04 Okay

Shantanu Deshpande 18:04 -Australia, whatever.

Nikhil Kamath 18:05 Play it out like you're enacting it. Say, I'm Deepa, I call you up.

Shantanu Deshpande 18:09 Okay.

Nikhil Kamath 18:09 I want to launch a men's brand. Shantanu calls who and asks what?

Shantanu Deshpande 18:13 I will find the 10 biggest men's brands ex- ex- expansions, like Dove for Men, for example.

Nikhil Kamath 18:20 Mm.

Shantanu Deshpande 18:20 I'll, I'll know the guy in Unilever who would've done the Dove to Dove Men expansion and spoken to him about how did it work in China? How did it work in India? What are the 10 insights you found? What are the consumer going through? Then I'll come back to Deepa, or I'll come back to you and say, "Hey, here are the big five things. What manufacturing or supply chain or marketing-"

Diipa Khosla 18:41 So it's network then?

Shantanu Deshpande 18:42 No, it's... So the network is a big, so that's the thing. There is one part of it which is, uh, like, very bottom-up information gathering and analysis. The second part is a counselor who is just someone who is very senior, who'll help you think through things. I've seen that happen a lot.

Nikhil Kamath 18:57 But generally, not a specialist and a generalist, right? 'Cause he's never built a skincare brand.

Shantanu Deshpande 19:04 Who?

Nikhil Kamath 19:05 Whoever at McKinsey she's talking to.

Shantanu Deshpande 19:07 Uh, no, they've not, obviously, never done it themselves, but they're close enough to many people to have... It's like a venture capitalist or an investor, right? You have done enough, and you're smart enough to do pattern recognition.

Nikhil Kamath 19:16 But if somebody were, maybe I inve- invested in a skincare brand, but if someone were to ask me, "What should I do?" I would be the last person they should take advice.

Shantanu Deshpande 19:24 But you have invested in 15 skincare brands across three fund cycles, you'll probably have the right answers.

Diipa Khosla 19:28 But then why can't I get this answer from my, um, board member from Unilever Ventures? You know what I mean? Like, that board member, if she would contact her list of people-

Shantanu Deshpande 19:38 Yes

Diipa Khosla 19:38 ... they would have the same contacts, they would have the same insights.

Shantanu Deshpande 19:41 So math to math, a board member who's from Unilever would probably cost the same as a McKinsey team for three months. So you, you-

Diipa Khosla 19:48 Even how much they give away [laughing]

Shantanu Deshpande 19:49 ... intellectually, intellectually, someone give you the, the-

Nikhil Kamath 19:52 How much does it cost? I've never used McKinsey.

Diipa Khosla 19:54 But McKinsey doesn't give me money. [laughing]

Shantanu Deshpande 19:55 [laughing] McKinsey-

Diipa Khosla 19:56 Unilever's given her money.

Shantanu Deshpande 19:57 No, no, but for example, like, that's, that's, that's probably what it, it would cost. Like, you think about the re- equity returns you're creating for that individual, would probably be the same, probably more. He's more invested. A couple of crores a month-

Diipa Khosla 20:08 [laughing]

Shantanu Deshpande 20:08 ... for a good team.

Nikhil Kamath 20:10 Yeah? Irrespective of my company size.

Shantanu Deshpande 20:14 Depend karta hai. So, for example, a lot of it, so the issue-

Nikhil Kamath 20:16 How big is your company, Deepa?

Diipa Khosla 20:18 In?

Nikhil Kamath 20:18 Sales.

Diipa Khosla 20:19 So we're gonna, um, cross 100 CR net. And I need to talk in net, because I think there's a lot of-

Shantanu Deshpande 20:26 Oh, yeah

Diipa Khosla 20:26 ... stuff in the press with-

Nikhil Kamath 20:28 [chuckles]

Diipa Khosla 20:28 ... GMVs and ARRs-

Shantanu Deshpande 20:29 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 20:29 ... and everything else, so I like-

Nikhil Kamath 20:31 What do you mean by net?

Diipa Khosla 20:31 ... talking in net. Net sales, after everything is taken out.

Bhakti Modi 20:34 So net of discount-

Shantanu Deshpande 20:34 It's what the accountant will say is the revenue

Bhakti Modi 20:35 ... return, and cancellation.

Diipa Khosla 20:36 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 20:36 Net of what you pay a distributor, for example.

Shantanu Deshpande 20:39 Yes.

Diipa Khosla 20:39 No.

Shantanu Deshpande 20:40 Yes.

Diipa Khosla 20:40 Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes.

Shantanu Deshpande 20:41 It's the invoice value. All invoice value.

Diipa Khosla 20:43 Yeah, invoice value.

Bhakti Modi 20:43 Invoice value.

Shantanu Deshpande 20:43 Back to my story, I, I was at McK- McKinsey for five years, started Bombay Shaving Company

Shantanu Deshpande 20:48 in 2016-

Nikhil Kamath 20:48 Also, before I forget, another question:

Shantanu Deshpande 20:49 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 20:49 What are multiples in a business like this or that today? Is it four or five-

Shantanu Deshpande 20:56 Valuation multiples?

Nikhil Kamath 20:56 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 20:58 So, this is a good part, right?

Nikhil Kamath 20:59 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 20:59 Four to five times revenue, if you're growing 40% year on year.

Nikhil Kamath 21:03 If you're growing 20%?

Shantanu Deshpande 21:05 Three to four.

Diipa Khosla 21:06 Really?

Bhakti Modi 21:07 No, I think it's-

Diipa Khosla 21:08 I've heard differently.

Bhakti Modi 21:08 Different. Yeah, it's, it can be anywhere between... It really depends on where, what category you are in, as well, because-

Shantanu Deshpande 21:15 So in beauty personal care, there is a, there is a, there is the moment of transition is when you become profitable, when you start going from four times revenue, five times revenue, to 40 times forward EBITDA.

Diipa Khosla 21:27 I've heard of cases-

Shantanu Deshpande 21:28 That's, that's the transition

Diipa Khosla 21:29 ... with, like, five to six times on ARR, or what I-

Bhakti Modi 21:33 Five to six times on revenue is, is very common as well-

Shantanu Deshpande 21:35 But what's the growth rate?

Bhakti Modi 21:36 ... right now.

Shantanu Deshpande 21:37 You won't value... Like, who gets valued at that? How much is the Emami valued at?

Nikhil Kamath 21:40 How much did Minimalist get valued at?

Diipa Khosla 21:41 Haley Bieber just-

Bhakti Modi 21:42 I think-

Shantanu Deshpande 21:42 [chuckles]

Diipa Khosla 21:42 ... Haley Bieber just got her company valued at-

Bhakti Modi 21:45 I think-

Nikhil Kamath 21:45 Ah.

Diipa Khosla 21:45 Haley Bieber was at four, though.

Bhakti Modi 21:47 She was at f- four and a half, five.

Diipa Khosla 21:48 No way!

Shantanu Deshpande 21:49 Minimalist was a very unique case.

Diipa Khosla 21:50 She made 200 million-

Bhakti Modi 21:51 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 21:51 And then she only got-

Bhakti Modi 21:52 And 800 million

Diipa Khosla 21:53 ... 800 now, right?

Bhakti Modi 21:54 No, her, uh, Roas is valued at one billion.

Diipa Khosla 21:55 The other one is going to be in three years, I think.

Bhakti Modi 21:58 Overall, got valued at one.

Diipa Khosla 22:00 Overall, okay.

Bhakti Modi 22:00 Yeah, so-

Diipa Khosla 22:00 Yeah

Bhakti Modi 22:01 ... but it is f- between four and five X of, uh, uh-

Shantanu Deshpande 22:04 Yeah

Bhakti Modi 22:04 ... revenue, yeah.

Diipa Khosla 22:05 And I would imagine India is a bit more, because-

Shantanu Deshpande 22:07 Yeah, a little more

Diipa Khosla 22:07 ... the beauty industry is exploding.

Bhakti Modi 22:09 Yeah, exploding, and it's also smaller, right?

Diipa Khosla 22:10 And-

Bhakti Modi 22:11 And at smaller scale, you can grow faster-

Diipa Khosla 22:13 Exactly

Bhakti Modi 22:13 ... and you'll get a higher multiple.

Diipa Khosla 22:14 And to your question, Minimalist, don't quote me on this, but I think seven or eight.

Shantanu Deshpande 22:19 You're on a podcast. You're going to get quoted, for sure. [laughing]

Diipa Khosla 22:24 [laughing] Quote me on them, I think.

Shantanu Deshpande 22:26 No, but it's, it's a public information.

Diipa Khosla 22:27 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 22:27 There were 480 кроres top line, 3,000 crores net value.

Diipa Khosla 22:29 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 22:30 Unilever really wanted that business.

Diipa Khosla 22:31 Yeah, yeah. And there are-

Nikhil Kamath 22:33 I was reviewing their business to invest, you know, and I negotiated with them so hard.

Shantanu Deshpande 22:38 At what stage?

Nikhil Kamath 22:39 Like a year before this deal-

Diipa Khosla 22:40 Wow

Nikhil Kamath 22:40 ... a year and a half before this deal.

Shantanu Deshpande 22:41 So that was not a, like, it would not have been a, like-

Nikhil Kamath 22:43 No, it was a-

Shantanu Deshpande 22:43 ... the venture capital is not super happy with the outcome.

Nikhil Kamath 22:46 No, it was a 40% markup from there.

Shantanu Deshpande 22:48 Huh.

Nikhil Kamath 22:49 Yeah. Which is still something, 40, 50%.

Shantanu Deshpande 22:51 Of course, of course. 50 X in, 50% in one year is great, but-

Nikhil Kamath 22:54 But I still couldn't, like, digest the valuation when... I spent, I think, two, three days with them on the phone, but I couldn't make my, make up my mind to-

Shantanu Deshpande 23:04 See, with that, now, at least from my view outside in, is there is a lot of things at play, right? Unilever is struggling to premiumize-

Nikhil Kamath 23:10 Mm

Shantanu Deshpande 23:11 ... all of their brands, Dove, Pond's, Fair & Lovely. Everything is mass.

Diipa Khosla 23:14 But Minimalist is not premium.

Shantanu Deshpande 23:15 Very premium, yeah.

Diipa Khosla 23:16 Premium?

Shantanu Deshpande 23:16 Compared to their portfolio?

Bhakti Modi 23:18 No, it's, Minimalist is masstige. Like, it's-

Diipa Khosla 23:21 Masstige.

Bhakti Modi 23:21 Masstige.

Shantanu Deshpande 23:21 But compared to their portfolio, compared to the average Unilever price point.

Bhakti Modi 23:24 By Lakme, it's-

Shantanu Deshpande 23:26 Lakme is a very small brand, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 23:27 Yeah, another good question for you guys-

Bhakti Modi 23:28 Yeah, but if you're talking about beauty, per se, this falls between the purview of beauty and, uh-

Shantanu Deshpande 23:33 Yeah, so it is, it is kind of between L'Oreal and L- Unilever.

Bhakti Modi 23:36 Yes.

Shantanu Deshpande 23:36 So it was up for Unilever.

Bhakti Modi 23:38 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 23:38 Mm.

Shantanu Deshpande 23:38 And new CEO wanting to get into this. I f- I felt it was, it was one of those-

Nikhil Kamath 23:44 What, what is premium? What is mass premium?

Diipa Khosla 23:48 I think Bhakti-

Bhakti Modi 23:49 So-

Diipa Khosla 23:49 ... is a good one to answer that.

Shantanu Deshpande 23:50 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 23:50 I think anything over 1,000 rupees is, um, 1,000 to 1,500 is premium. Anything over 2,300 or-

Shantanu Deshpande 23:58 Luxury

Bhakti Modi 23:58 ... 2,300 to 2,500 is prestige/luxury.

Nikhil Kamath 24:04 ... and everything below?

Bhakti Modi 24:06 Everything below is mass.

Speaker 24:07 Which is so crazy, because-

Bhakti Modi 24:09 Between mass and mass tier.

Speaker 24:10 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 24:10 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 24:10 So you can take anything between 700 to 1,000-

Speaker 24:14 Yeah

Bhakti Modi 24:14 ... as mass tier, and varies about plus minus 100 rupees on, um, uh, different categories, and then anything below that is mass. So we're still playing very, very value-

Speaker 24:26 Heavily, yeah

Bhakti Modi 24:26 ... heavily in value, right.

Nikhil Kamath 24:28 And we're talking skincare plus cosmetics.

Bhakti Modi 24:30 So how we cate- just plainly how we would categorize beauty is just four key main categories: beauty... uh, skincare, fragrance, haircare, and makeup, color cosmetics.

Nikhil Kamath 24:43 Okay.

Bhakti Modi 24:43 So those are four key beauty categories, and then everything else is personal care. So soap, you will classify as personal care, but-

Speaker 24:51 Shower gels.

Bhakti Modi 24:51 Shower gel and shower oil, again, you will classify as, um, uh, you, you'll put it in beauty.

Nikhil Kamath 24:59 And skincare is the largest?

Bhakti Modi 25:01 No, actually, color cosmetics-

Speaker 25:02 Color-

Bhakti Modi 25:03 is the largest

Speaker 25:03 color is always the largest.

Bhakti Modi 25:04 Always.

Nikhil Kamath 25:04 Yeah?

Bhakti Modi 25:05 But, you know, they're going kind of neck and neck.

Speaker 25:07 It's going neck and neck, yeah.

Bhakti Modi 25:07 Because the lines are also blurring.

Speaker 25:09 I think in the past-

Bhakti Modi 25:10 Mm

Speaker 25:10 ... color has always been the biggest.

Bhakti Modi 25:12 Always dominated, yeah.

Speaker 25:12 Because it's the Estees and L'Oréals of the world-

Bhakti Modi 25:14 Exactly

Speaker 25:14 ... the lipsticks, the mascaras. It's always been the biggest. Skincare, I think, has been a, a recent-

Bhakti Modi 25:20 Dark horse, yeah.

Speaker 25:21 Yeah, a recent one where I think the... I think maybe Glossier might have started that trend in a way, of like really skinifying-

Nikhil Kamath 25:27 Just, just to qualify, when I think skincare, I'm thinking moisturizer, sunscreen.

Bhakti Modi 25:31 Correct. Correct.

Nikhil Kamath 25:31 We're talking about that, right?

Bhakti Modi 25:32 Correct.

Shantanu Deshpande 25:33 This is, this is a very-

Nikhil Kamath 25:33 Yeah

Shantanu Deshpande 25:33 ... like, so I'm very curious. So for, for example, for men, these numbers are very different for the categories I operate in.

Nikhil Kamath 25:39 No, I think we'll stick to women first-

Shantanu Deshpande 25:41 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 25:41 ... 'cause I'm guessing majority of the market is that. Right? Like 80%? 90%?

Shantanu Deshpande 25:46 Yes, but changing.

Speaker 25:46 But changing.

Bhakti Modi 25:47 Changing.

Shantanu Deshpande 25:47 But changing.

Speaker 25:48 Yeah. But changing.

Bhakti Modi 25:49 Yeah.

Speaker 25:49 Yeah. Um, yes, so I think skincare, I think is maybe the past seven, six, seven years, really took a, like, upward trend.

Bhakti Modi 25:57 I, I think, yeah, the last seven to 10 years has been very good on skincare. And I think the, the way we define beauty has also really changed-

Speaker 26:06 Yes

Bhakti Modi 26:06 ... the concept of, you know, uh, adoption of skincare, right? Because I think beauty, beauty has gone through this journey where it was all about looking good, external validation.

Speaker 26:18 Mm.

Bhakti Modi 26:19 Um, you know, we've all seen the ads where you put on a red lipstick, or you wear Fair- you, you know, you put on Fair, uh, Fair & Lovely, and then you go get the next guy. You get, get the best guy, you get the best job, you win, uh, a reality TV show. And then that was all about really dominating makeup, right? Because it was about enhancing or making yourself look better. So it was not really... It was about getting external validation, and also telling yourself that, "I need to have all of this to become better."

Speaker 26:46 Mm.

Bhakti Modi 26:46 Then it went on... Like, I think the space that, um, when skincare really took off was all about, uh, you know, taking care of your skin, making sure that, you know, you want to take care of yourself. And we're kind of there, but now we've moved into the self-expression zone. So beauty is all about self-expression-

Speaker 27:05 Mm

Bhakti Modi 27:05 ... and whatever that means to you, right? So-

Nikhil Kamath 27:08 That comes in the makeup.

Bhakti Modi 27:10 That is where the journey from makeup, you know, makeup dominating beauty, when whenever, you know, even when we do work with ad agencies, a lot of them, they only look at beauty as makeup. Like, that's how it went hand in hand.

Speaker 27:25 Mm.

Bhakti Modi 27:26 And you kind of started... You know, you ignore all the other categories.

Nikhil Kamath 27:29 Mm.

Bhakti Modi 27:29 If you look

Bhakti Modi 27:30 at the services industry, on the other hand, um, it's all about hair. So skin and makeup services are not huge. 70%-

Nikhil Kamath 27:38 Wait, that comes under this?

Bhakti Modi 27:40 So services is also beauty, right? Like hair services, when you get into the-

Nikhil Kamath 27:44 Like if I go to-

Speaker 27:44 Like salon.

Nikhil Kamath 27:45 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 27:45 Like a salon. 70% is all about hair, but when you're talking-

Speaker 27:49 Well, I wouldn't consider salon under the beauty-

Bhakti Modi 27:51 Yeah, you... I mean, it's-

Speaker 27:52 Ayurveda, would you?

Bhakti Modi 27:52 ... it's still, you're still selling, uh, you're still selling product there, right?

Speaker 27:56 Mm.

Bhakti Modi 27:57 Like a Kerastase.

Nikhil Kamath 27:58 You're talking about the products sold at a salon-

Bhakti Modi 27:59 Products

Nikhil Kamath 27:59 ... not the service.

Speaker 28:01 Not the treatments.

Bhakti Modi 28:01 No, not the treatments.

Shantanu Deshpande 28:02 But it's still consumption, no?

Bhakti Modi 28:03 But it's still consumption on how people think differently. So-

Nikhil Kamath 28:06 Is that a big part of consumption, salons?

Bhakti Modi 28:09 Salons-

Speaker 28:09 Used to be

Nikhil Kamath 28:10 ... is huge.

Speaker 28:10 Used to be, I think.

Bhakti Modi 28:11 In India particularly-

Nikhil Kamath 28:13 Yeah

Bhakti Modi 28:13 ... all professional haircare brands have started in salons. If you look at Kerastase, they do majority of their business still through salons, because, again-

Nikhil Kamath 28:22 And what does it take to crack a salon? Like, if I'm a new brand like Kerastase.

Bhakti Modi 28:27 So India is very fragmented, even on the salon space. So you'll have some... You'll have, like, eight to 10 big brands that are dominating different markets, right? Like the north or the west or, um, the south. And, um, you have to actually be able to strike a deal. For example... And it's a Kerastase, if they go into any salon, they don't allow any other brand to be do- to be there. So-

Nikhil Kamath 28:55 Is it like in a pharmacy, where you pay rent to get shelf space?

Bhakti Modi 29:00 It's, it's a lot more than that. You have- you- they'll let you... You have to give them product that you can use on, on a service. So you basically craft an entire treatment menu with your, with your product, and then that's how you actually sell your product, 'cause it's all about the after-sales service and after-sales purchase, right? So if I like a product, if I go to my hair s- hairstylist, who I trust, because, again, beauty is all about trust, and, you know, believing in someone who you believe is an expert. So when I go to them, and, you know, my hairstylist telling me, "Bhakti, your hair is falling. Why don't you use this serum? You know, and let me, let me use it after I, you know, shampoo your hair, before blow-dry. This is how you use it. And oh, you know, um, the weather's really dry outside, so maybe you should try this, uh, shampoo that's moisturizing, and that'll make your hair, um, you know, uh, hold, hold well in this weather." And then at the end of it, he's used all of that on me, and then he'd be like, "Listen, do you want to buy it?" And that- and I'm like: Oh, I really like my hair. 'Cause again-

Nikhil Kamath 29:59 So does-

Bhakti Modi 29:59 ... then it goes back to validation.

Nikhil Kamath 30:01 Does the salon optimize for best quality product or the highest kickback or margins?

Bhakti Modi 30:09 ... I, definitely, I think it's, it's, it's a mix of both, right? Because you also want people to keep coming back to you. So it's the, it's-

Diipa Khosla 30:17 But if a, like you said, a brand just takes over-

Bhakti Modi 30:20 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 30:20 ... and says no other brand, then I guess you're only serving the client one brand.

Bhakti Modi 30:23 Yeah, and that's, that's why now a lot of salons are also saying, "No, we don't mind having three or four brands," because they cater to all different kinds of products. Like curly hair, it's huge-

Diipa Khosla 30:33 Yeah

Bhakti Modi 30:33 ... but we never speak about curly hair. Like, it's a whole segment in itself, booming segment in itself, and, um, it's just been started getting addressed now. So that, that pattern is breaking out, and I think that's great. Like, I've discovered a lot of brands, but, you know, even international brands, through salons, because they're coming through a distributor. So you can work with a distributor who'll, you know, have all the best salon connections. Go to them saying, "Listen, I want to distribute my brand." They'll probably connect you to, if it's a small one, to 10 salons, or if it's, you know, your brand is growing bigger, then to a chain of salons, and-

Diipa Khosla 31:10 So I think my experience has been a little bit different. Obviously, Inde Wild's, um, hair products are our best-selling. We're number one on Nykaa, number one on Tira, and, and we're beating out salon brands like Kerastase, like Olaplex-

Bhakti Modi 31:23 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 31:23 ... like others, I don't know the names of all of them, um, that really are salon-first brands. And I think so there is a change, and I'd say specifically double-clicking into Gen Z, where they want that salon experience at home.

Bhakti Modi 31:38 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 31:38 They want it fast-

Bhakti Modi 31:39 Absolutely

Diipa Khosla 31:39 ... they want it quick, they want to do it themselves, but they want the level of that expertise and ingredients and salon-like feeling, but to be able to do it themselves. And so when you notice, even if you look at, um, the new shampoos that are coming out, everything is so intelligent now. Everything has to be bond repair, and peptides, and proteins, and ingredients-led, that the customer feels like, "Why would I go to a salon and spend 4,000 on getting the hair done first, then get fed these thingies, when I can get it quickly from Tira by the next morning, and it, and it claims to have all the same things? Plus, the influencer who's talking to me about it has said you get the same effects."

Bhakti Modi 32:20 Mm.

Diipa Khosla 32:20 "I can see the before and afters." Like, I feel like consumers, maybe the salon is still a very important for maybe the millennials and-

Bhakti Modi 32:27 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 32:27 ... perhaps, like, our aunties and our moms and stuff.

Bhakti Modi 32:30 Yeah, the older, older generation.

Diipa Khosla 32:32 Older generation.

Bhakti Modi 32:32 Absolutely, yeah.

Diipa Khosla 32:32 But Gen Z is a lot more like, "I need it now."

Bhakti Modi 32:34 Instant gratification.

Diipa Khosla 32:36 Yeah, exactly.

Bhakti Modi 32:36 They, they want it now, they want it all.

Diipa Khosla 32:37 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 32:37 I also think, like, salons are good for, um, for sampling. So the, the thing that makes brands work in salons, and I think L'Oréal is a fantastic example of this-

Bhakti Modi 32:45 Yes

Shantanu Deshpande 32:46 ... is they're able to get a SKU assortment which is larger. So they'll do, like, 500 mls and one liter, and-

Bhakti Modi 32:51 Mm

Shantanu Deshpande 32:52 ... shaving foam, they'll do, like, a two-kilo pack-

Bhakti Modi 32:54 Yeah

Shantanu Deshpande 32:54 ... stuff like that. Bijan will do a good job with that. The con- customer and the consumer are different, so the customer is the st- are, is the stylist. The consumer is the person who's doing it at home.

Bhakti Modi 33:02 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 33:03 So the consumer probably gets it done the first time, and then will come to a Tira and-

Diipa Khosla 33:07 As a second purchase.

Bhakti Modi 33:08 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 33:08 Yeah-

Bhakti Modi 33:08 Exactly

Shantanu Deshpande 33:08 ... and we will tell you how to do this.

Bhakti Modi 33:09 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 33:10 Tira "... then they do it themselves. Second thing is-

Bhakti Modi 33:12 Do they look for the same brand when they're on Tira?

Shantanu Deshpande 33:15 O- oftentimes. The second thing that I think really good salon-first brands do, is they invest a lot in training.

Bhakti Modi 33:20 Training.

Diipa Khosla 33:21 Yes, training.

Shantanu Deshpande 33:21 They do a lot-

Bhakti Modi 33:22 Huge training

Shantanu Deshpande 33:22 ... of like these... They'll have massive teachers. They'll go into these academies. They'll call 50 stylists in one go.

Bhakti Modi 33:28 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 33:28 Keep them for a week.

Bhakti Modi 33:29 Mm.

Shantanu Deshpande 33:29 Like, take them through it. So now, the, there's a product which is assorted for a salon, then there is a stylist who's trained to use that product to the el-

Bhakti Modi 33:37 Yeah

Shantanu Deshpande 33:37 ... optimum performance. Then the consumer leaves the salon saying, "Hey, that was fucking amazing."

Bhakti Modi 33:41 Exactly.

Shantanu Deshpande 33:42 "Now I want to come and see how I..."

Bhakti Modi 33:42 And then the repeat goes on to, you know, any platform. Go- they go onto a Tira, and they're like, "Okay, now we keep buying it." And again, going back to what Deepa said, right, I think that Gen Z is a lot more comfortable figuring it out for themselves.

Diipa Khosla 33:55 Themselves, yeah.

Bhakti Modi 33:55 I think the millennials and, you know, uh, all the, uh, uh, everyone older than that, is very used to getting it done, so they feel a lot more comfortable saying, "Okay, ... stylist, I'll get it. You know, now, now I feel comfortable."

Diipa Khosla 34:07 And I think who we look as experts has changed.

Bhakti Modi 34:09 Experts. Exactly, so-

Diipa Khosla 34:10 Like, I think millennials look at experts as the trichologist, dermatologists-

Bhakti Modi 34:15 Dermatologist

Diipa Khosla 34:15 ... like salon-

Bhakti Modi 34:16 Yes

Diipa Khosla 34:16 ... um, hairdressers.

Bhakti Modi 34:18 Yes.

Diipa Khosla 34:18 And the Gen Z is looking at influencers-

Bhakti Modi 34:20 KOLs

Diipa Khosla 34:20 ... and, and, like, you know, KOLs as their experts.

Bhakti Modi 34:23 What is KOL?

Shantanu Deshpande 34:24 Key opinion.

Diipa Khosla 34:25 Uh, key opinion leader. [laughing]

Shantanu Deshpande 34:25 Would you, would you want your brand to be in, uh, be in salons at some point? Have you thought about, like, a salon range?

Diipa Khosla 34:31 I think if... I mean, Inde Wild is such a, like, wellness, Ayurvedic, like, I can see that happen, especially I think our Champi hair oil, like, you know, reinventing the Champi in this really cool hair treatment way. I can see it, but I think at this point, we're, we're good with our-

Shantanu Deshpande 34:48 Sales

Diipa Khosla 34:48 ... yeah, online and, and, like, our retailers, and I think next step perhaps could be more spa-led first, perhaps.

Bhakti Modi 34:55 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 34:55 And then the phase after that could be salon.

Shantanu Deshpande 34:58 Deepa has really nice hair.

Diipa Khosla 35:00 Thank you. You will need to get my oil.

Shantanu Deshpande 35:02 [laugh]

Diipa Khosla 35:02 I need to send it to you. I will send you my oil.

Shantanu Deshpande 35:04 Do you oil every day?

Diipa Khosla 35:06 No, that would be crazy. [laughing]

Shantanu Deshpande 35:08 [laughing]

Diipa Khosla 35:09 Um, I, [laugh] I oil usually once a week. We call it, um, Sunday Champi. That's kind of the thing we've made with our brand, where every Sunday, our community Champis with us.

Shantanu Deshpande 35:18 Wow.

Diipa Khosla 35:18 Um, girls go to Pilates with oil in their hair. Girls go to groceries with oil in their hair and-

Bhakti Modi 35:23 I, I work- worked out with her Champi hair oil-

Diipa Khosla 35:25 See?

Bhakti Modi 35:26 ... on, on a Sunday, so it's excellent.

Diipa Khosla 35:27 And you keep it on all day? No, we keep it on for an hour, two hours, and then you wash it out. It's almost... Honestly, it has become a movement of sorts [laugh] with the Gen Z, because this thing, the Champi, the hair oiling, was a PTSD to all of us growing up.

Bhakti Modi 35:41 Yes.

Diipa Khosla 35:42 I, I mean, I hated it.

Bhakti Modi 35:44 Mm.

Diipa Khosla 35:44 Like, you would have to go to school with it. It would stink-

Bhakti Modi 35:47 Flat, flat hair.

Diipa Khosla 35:48 It would be heavy.

Bhakti Modi 35:49 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 35:49 Like, you just didn't like the experience of oiling your hair, and especially if you go abroad with it, the- you would be made fun of. You know, so Indians abroad, Indians in India, all of us together have this really bad experience of hair oiling, and what Inde Wild did is we took that very same experience, turned it on its head, and made it cool.... and now there's this clean girl aesthetic, where it's all about the slick back and updos. Do it with the Champi oil.

Nikhil Kamath 36:14 That's cool.

Diipa Khosla 36:14 And-

Bhakti Modi 36:15 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 36:15 And so it's become like instead of using a wax or a gel, use this oil that is really good for your hair while you do a cool style with it, and, and, and then really treat your hair every Sunday, and the before and afters speak for themselves. So I think-

Nikhil Kamath 36:30 We were ideating a jewelry brand recently-

Diipa Khosla 36:32 Mm-hmm

Nikhil Kamath 36:32 ... with lab-grown jewelry, lab-grown diamonds, and two people we were consulting, Kishore and Santosh Birani-

Diipa Khosla 36:41 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 36:41 Uh, they were talking about how the youth is buying, not a new product altogether, but they're buying reimagined old. Yeah. Is that something that's working for Champi, and do you agree with that analysis?

Diipa Khosla 36:56 I think 100%, for the brand as a whole. Like, Inde Wild, I think, really resonates with the new India, because we just take age-old Nani ke nuskhe, scientifically back it, make it super cool, and bring it out again.

Bhakti Modi 37:12 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 37:12 And, and I think it's definitely that nostalgic element that our products give, while it being something that you're really cool to show off to your friends. Like, our, our dewy lip treatments, they're our lip balms. Bhakti loves them. They're-

Bhakti Modi 37:26 The rose. [chuckles]

Diipa Khosla 37:26 Yeah, the rose. Um, they basically have ghee in it. Could you ever imagine a lip balm with ghee in it? And it is the talk of the town. Like, you go to Sohouse, every girl has it on her table. They have it locked to their bags. They have it locked to their jeans.

Nikhil Kamath 37:41 Really?

Diipa Khosla 37:41 And it's ghee in a lip balm.

Bhakti Modi 37:43 But it's so funny, 'cause when I was growing up, my mom would tell me, "Eat a date", and she would put, put, uh, ghee inside it, and then she's like, "Eat it", and whatever's left-

Diipa Khosla 37:52 Put it on your-

Bhakti Modi 37:52 ... left on, just put it, put it on your lips.

Diipa Khosla 37:54 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 37:54 And we've... I've grown up literally with that, like, you know, "Put ghee on your lips-

Diipa Khosla 37:58 Yeah

Bhakti Modi 37:58 ... so they don't chap."

Diipa Khosla 38:00 Yeah, exactly.

Nikhil Kamath 38:00 Can

Nikhil Kamath 38:01 we establish market size? You said skincare, makeup, hair, and fragrance. How big is this market in India now? You said premium is 1,000 bucks, luxe and prestige is 2,300 bucks, mass is below that.

Diipa Khosla 38:13 Yes.

Nikhil Kamath 38:13 Women are majority of the market. How big is the market and who is buying, overall, in India?

Diipa Khosla 38:20 I think beauty personal care at this point, in 2024, was 21 billion, which is so funny because our first investor deck had something from McKinsey and Bain saying in 2025, the Indian beauty market would be 20 billion. We've already beaten it.

Bhakti Modi 38:35 Beaten, yeah.

Diipa Khosla 38:35 So it's going faster than anybody expected. Um, if you double-click on beauty itself, I think-

Bhakti Modi 38:41 40 to 45% of the market.

Diipa Khosla 38:43 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 38:43 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 38:44 When you say beauty, you mean-

Diipa Khosla 38:45 Skincare-

Nikhil Kamath 38:46 Skincare, makeup, hair, fragrance

Diipa Khosla 38:46 ... correct, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 38:48 Do Indians still buy the Western narrative?

Diipa Khosla 38:51 That's such a good question.

Bhakti Modi 38:52 Yes.

Diipa Khosla 38:53 Yes-

Bhakti Modi 38:54 Yes and no.

Diipa Khosla 38:55 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 38:56 Yes and no.

Nikhil Kamath 38:56 Explain.

Diipa Khosla 38:57 You start.

Bhakti Modi 38:59 I think that, um, you know, there was a time when a lot of the... When, when particularly when MAC entered, right? I think they came, they had first mover advantage, entered the market, and really took it by storm. There was no Indian brand, um, you know, uh, there was no global brand other than Maybelline and, uh, Lakme, as, as we always all know, has, like, you know, changed, changed the game in the mass segment. But MAC came in and kind of, you know, we were all... I think the millennial generation was the first one that started, you know, traveling and-

Diipa Khosla 39:35 Mm

Bhakti Modi 39:35 ... going out and getting a little bit of the taste of what, what beauty was glo- you know, in, in the Western countries. And I, I think that when that MAC phenomena began, we were all, you know, "Oh wow, this is made in, uh, Italy. It's made in France. It's come from the UK. It's come from the US." There was that whole enigma to kind of, uh, you know, want and just be that, right? So it was whether it was in looks, whether it was in how we believed, what we wanted to be, just dressing, everything was kind of aping, aping the West. Now, I said, as, as brands started really coming in, the con- and the consumer mindset started moving, one pe- one, consumers believe that when brands are coming from a country like, uh, uh, France, or they're coming from a country like Italy, where they're known to have really, really good quality ingredients, they want product that is very, very good. Um, but I think when it comes fr- uh, when it, when it, uh, comes to a brand and storytelling and who they identify with, that identification has changed very beautifully. They realized that they were not seeing people who represent, who represent them. So I think when it comes to what they expect from a quality perspective, yes, there is a want to emulate the West, in product standard, in quality, in transparency, in how they talk about claims, in... You know, I think Europe, Europe has the highest standards when it comes to safety and ingredients, um, and transparency, and the consumers today in India demand exactly that.

Diipa Khosla 41:10 Mm.

Bhakti Modi 41:10 Do they want to see the same kind of brand storytelling, the kind... The same kind of, uh, uh, you know, uh... They want, they want to see who they are on a global brand as well. So I think that when you, uh... Global brands are alienating, uh, uh, uh, you know, alienating Indian consumers when they don't see someone who looks like them in India.

Diipa Khosla 41:32 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 41:32 So that's, I think, a... Any, any time a brand is coming in, I always tell them this, that, "Make sure... You may not get a face, but you make sure that you are being able to s- your brand has something that connects to the Indian consumer. There's, there's something that speaks to their unique journey-

Diipa Khosla 41:49 Yeah

Bhakti Modi 41:49 ... that's something that's dear to them and their values." So I think that, that is something that has changed, and what's not changed, I think, is the standards.

Diipa Khosla 41:58 I think-

Nikhil Kamath 41:58 But traditionally, the opposite worked, right?

Diipa Khosla 42:00 Yes.

Bhakti Modi 42:00 Yes.

Diipa Khosla 42:00 So I think in India, like, growing up here, I think we had a colonial hangover. Like, I think-

Bhakti Modi 42:07 Yeah, majorly

Diipa Khosla 42:07 ... everything was-

Nikhil Kamath 42:08 Don't we still?

Diipa Khosla 42:09 ... I would argue less, or perhaps for many people also not, because I think-

Nikhil Kamath 42:13 And specifically in the premium and prestige categories? What about mass category?

Diipa Khosla 42:18 Um, I, I'll get to that in a second. But I think the Eurocentric ideals of beauty, the colonial hangover, I think we, like, like you said, anything that came from the West was just way better, way superior. India could never, 'cause look, look at our backyard, look at how dirty everything is. But I think in, as time went by and in recent years, there's this pride, there's this nationalistic Indian pride that I have seen in myself. I think when I first went abroad, I myself would be like: "Oh yeah, I've, I've studied... I have cousins from America," or like, "I've studied." And now, so proudly do I say I'm from India, and I think it's been a conglomeration of so many different-

Nikhil Kamath 42:58 But still marry a white guy and live in Netherlands.

Diipa Khosla 42:59 But love I can't choose, right? [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 43:02 [laughing]

Diipa Khosla 43:02 I happened to fall in love with a white guy.

Bhakti Modi 43:04 [laughing]

Diipa Khosla 43:05 He'd kill me for that.

Bhakti Modi 43:06 You ran straight into him. [laughing]

Diipa Khosla 43:07 I know! And this... You know what happened, actually, when I got married, and I posted these beautiful wedding photos, some Indian men literally were like, "Didn't we have enough men in India?"

Bhakti Modi 43:15 [laughing]

Diipa Khosla 43:15 I'm like: "Guys, I, you don't choose who you fall in love with." [laughing] Um, but no, back to the story. So, so then I think now, you know, with everything that India is doing, like the Global South is where it's at. India is the epicenter of beauty, uh, in our industry, but also in so many other things. It's where it's gonna be.

Nikhil Kamath 43:34 But we are still buying more Estée Lauder and-

Diipa Khosla 43:37 We're not, but that's what we're arguing. We're not.

Nikhil Kamath 43:39 Majority.

Diipa Khosla 43:40 That's... I feel like as I, I think we'll get to that, is that-

Nikhil Kamath 43:43 L'Oréal and Unilever

Diipa Khosla 43:43 ... I think there's a shift. There's a significant shift-

Bhakti Modi 43:46 Exactly

Diipa Khosla 43:46 ... in homegrown brands dominating-

Bhakti Modi 43:49 Exactly

Diipa Khosla 43:49 ... Minimalist being a big one, right? And something to be said about timing. And the early-

Nikhil Kamath 43:55 Can you put a percentage to this? Say, five years ago, how much market share did L'Oréal and Estée Lauder have, and how much do they have today? Or the-

Bhakti Modi 44:03 The belly of the market, Nikhil, is still very mass, right? So mass-

Diipa Khosla 44:08 Exactly

Bhakti Modi 44:08 ... and prestige. So while a L'Oréal Paris and a Maybelline play in that segment, um, it is still, uh, a Lakmé, uh, a Lakmé, and a Maybelline that dominates. So a Lakmé is still sitting on the top of the color cosmetics charts.

Diipa Khosla 44:23 Exactly.

Bhakti Modi 44:23 There's Lakmé, Maybelline, and MAC. Like-

Nikhil Kamath 44:25 But do you think people look at Minimalist as a nationalistic Indian brand, or it seemed foreign to begin with, and they never-

Shantanu Deshpande 44:33 Good question

Nikhil Kamath 44:34 ... spoke about their story? They didn't do that many interviews, nobody associated a name with the founder, so nobody-

Shantanu Deshpande 44:41 They post exit-

Diipa Khosla 44:41 I think, I think all of that aside, I think what Minimalist did really well, and of course, they're part of the Unilever portfolio, so I love them as well. But I think their products, they've really focused on good quality.

Nikhil Kamath 44:53 Quality.

Diipa Khosla 44:53 They were, I think, one of the first brands who said... Like, even if you go to their labs or their manufacturing units-

Shantanu Deshpande 44:58 Mm-hmm

Diipa Khosla 44:58 ... it's high-quality ingredients, high-quality products. That, I think, was the first time that consumers were like, "Okay, we are being shared transparency." They really led the, um, kind of growth in India on ingredient-led and really educating the customer.

Nikhil Kamath 45:14 Give me a tip here. I'm starting a brand. I'm 20 years old or 25 years old. I have great quality, but how do I tell people I have great quality, or how do I show them?

Diipa Khosla 45:23 How quickly do you want to scale?

Nikhil Kamath 45:25 As-

Diipa Khosla 45:25 How much time do you have?

Nikhil Kamath 45:26 As quickly as I can.

Diipa Khosla 45:29 How much money do you have?

Nikhil Kamath 45:31 Say, 2 crore rupees. They started with that much, no, Minimalist? 2 crores, 3 crores.

Shantanu Deshpande 45:35 Yeah, they, they were very-

Bhakti Modi 45:37 Yeah

Shantanu Deshpande 45:37 ... they were very capital efficient.

Bhakti Modi 45:38 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 45:39 They didn't raise a lot.

Bhakti Modi 45:39 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 45:39 They raised after-

Diipa Khosla 45:40 They had their own manufacturing unit. That was a big up.

Shantanu Deshpande 45:43 But it doesn't cost a lot, no, to put, put the manufacturing. It, it wasn't very CapEx intensive. It was a, a small lab.

Nikhil Kamath 45:48 See, a lot of people can have good quality. The question is, how is the story told?

Diipa Khosla 45:52 How are you gonna market? Yeah, of course.

Bhakti Modi 45:54 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 45:54 Good quality is part one of the equation. Then you need a phenomenal, like, marketing... Like, of course, with me, it was great that we had that trampoline jump to begin with. It is a content creator economy. Like, it is content, content. Like, I al- I tell my team this all the time, "We're a product company and a media company in one." Like, if we can do our content and media-

Nikhil Kamath 46:14 That seems to be what everybody tells me today.

Shantanu Deshpande 46:17 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 46:17 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 46:17 Not just in your industry.

Diipa Khosla 46:18 Yeah, yeah. You have to. Like, that's the way-

Nikhil Kamath 46:21 Like, including him, he's a media company as much as he's a product company.

Diipa Khosla 46:24 You are.

Shantanu Deshpande 46:24 No, we're not a media company, but we do a lot of distribution of content through channels that we own, as opposed to buying media off of inventory.

Diipa Khosla 46:31 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 46:32 Yeah, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 46:32 As a, as is Tira now?

Bhakti Modi 46:35 I think, uh, Tira is... We're also focusing highly on, I think, content is one end, but community is on the other, right?

Diipa Khosla 46:43 Of course, yeah.

Bhakti Modi 46:44 And I think that you have to... You can be a great content creator, but if you don't have a community that is authentic, that has been built on a shared value, you're not really going to be able to maximize it.

Diipa Khosla 46:57 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 46:57 So I think that what I would, you know, I would start with is a hero product. You need to have one solid product, and you need to be able to solve a real problem. I, I think that's one thing. So even if it's good quality-

Shantanu Deshpande 47:11 Yeah

Bhakti Modi 47:11 ... I think that's one, and then you can go and-

Nikhil Kamath 47:14 Give me an example, hero product.

Bhakti Modi 47:16 Um, let's-

Shantanu Deshpande 47:17 My favorite example actually is Mamaearth on this, 'cause their hero products-

Bhakti Modi 47:20 Yeah

Shantanu Deshpande 47:20 ... changed, but they were really-

Nikhil Kamath 47:21 Onion something.

Shantanu Deshpande 47:23 No.

Bhakti Modi 47:23 Onion something.

Shantanu Deshpande 47:23 Do you guys remember what Mamaearth's first big hero product was, when they were doing 5 crores a month at a total level? Take a wild guess. I love this.

Bhakti Modi 47:32 I thought it was the, I know the onion hair.

Shantanu Deshpande 47:33 Onion, uh, onion one was, like-

Bhakti Modi 47:35 Yeah

Shantanu Deshpande 47:35 ... maybe when they were doing 10 crores.

Bhakti Modi 47:36 Baby something?

Shantanu Deshpande 47:36 Yeah, something for kids.

Bhakti Modi 47:37 Baby, yeah?

Shantanu Deshpande 47:38 No, but what? They were the-

Nikhil Kamath 47:41 Diapers?

Shantanu Deshpande 47:41 ... best mosquito repellent for kids.

Bhakti Modi 47:43 [chuckles]

Diipa Khosla 47:43 Oh, my God!

Bhakti Modi 47:44 Wow.

Shantanu Deshpande 47:44 And it was an outstanding product. Because it smelled good, and kids loved it.

Diipa Khosla 47:47 I literally ordered it on Blinkit yesterday.

Shantanu Deshpande 47:49 For kids?

Diipa Khosla 47:49 The same mosquito repellent-

Shantanu Deshpande 47:51 [laughing]

Diipa Khosla 47:51 ... Mamaearth.

Shantanu Deshpande 47:51 So Mamaearth was doing four or five crores a month, and they were doing-

Diipa Khosla 47:54 Amazing

Shantanu Deshpande 47:54 ... three crores of mosquito repellent.

Bhakti Modi 47:55 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 47:56 Good problem to solve.

Shantanu Deshpande 47:56 It was all out and good night.

Diipa Khosla 47:57 That's a great... Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 47:57 And then they went from that to the onion, and then, of course, they had a lot of-

Diipa Khosla 48:00 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 48:00 But I think also Mamaearth was the first wave, but I think what Bhakti is saying about community right now, like-

Diipa Khosla 48:05 No, I'm-

Bhakti Modi 48:05 Giving an example of her, right?

Diipa Khosla 48:06 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 48:06 Like Champi hair oil, she has that one product-

Shantanu Deshpande 48:09 One product

Bhakti Modi 48:09 ... which, and a lot of the story really-

Diipa Khosla 48:12 Yeah

Bhakti Modi 48:12 ... works on that. So she picked that product. She had a story, which was nostalgia.

Diipa Khosla 48:16 But it's the community that made it.

Bhakti Modi 48:17 Exactly.

Diipa Khosla 48:17 So I think, like, in today's day and age, you can copy product, right? You can copy-... branding, marketing- Yeah ... you can copy that. You cannot copy a community. It would take you so long to build a community at a level that we've built. So like-

Nikhil Kamath 48:34 How do I build?

Diipa Khosla 48:34 How is it built?

Nikhil Kamath 48:35 How do I build?

Diipa Khosla 48:35 How do you build?

Nikhil Kamath 48:37 I'm 25, I'm starting. Like, I, I want all the questions that I will need answered to start tomorrow.

Diipa Khosla 48:43 I think- You, you start small. My first community event had 14 people. The most-

Nikhil Kamath 48:47 Is it by hosting events?

Diipa Khosla 48:48 It is by hosting events. That's a big one.

Nikhil Kamath 48:49 Is it more offline than online?

Bhakti Modi 48:50 But, but what if this founder does not want to be the face, right? I think there are people who may not want to be the face of their ... Like, we, we spoke about Minimalist. Um, I, I-

Diipa Khosla 49:01 You can still build a community.

Bhakti Modi 49:02 Yeah, exactly.

Diipa Khosla 49:03 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 49:03 But I think finding the shared values, so finding other creators who would have the same shared values as you or your brand, and then really reaching out to their communities-

Diipa Khosla 49:14 Yeah

Bhakti Modi 49:14 ... I think that's another way, and a quicker way, because there are people who will believe in the exact same thing. So if you take something as simple as acne, you know, you're solving for acne, so ... And you reach out to creators who've spoken about body image. Uh, you reach out to-

Diipa Khosla 49:30 Mm

Bhakti Modi 49:30 ... creators who've spoken about changes that they've gone through, you s- you know, who, who talk about their journey and... Or even experts, right, who know how to solve this issue, and then reach out to their communities versus putting yourself out there as well.

Diipa Khosla 49:45 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 49:45 That's-

Diipa Khosla 49:45 And-

Nikhil Kamath 49:46 Okay, if-

Diipa Khosla 49:46 offline helps, but a lot can be done online as well.

Shantanu Deshpande 49:49 I think online is huge. So I think community-

Nikhil Kamath 49:50 Yeah, I'm starting with two crore rupees.

Shantanu Deshpande 49:52 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 49:52 I'm trying to build a community.

Diipa Khosla 49:54 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 49:54 Well, where, where are you playing first? That's the first question. I want to... I have some questions-

Diipa Khosla 49:57 Yeah, channel

Shantanu Deshpande 49:57 ... on the market. So for me, like I, I, I always say-

Diipa Khosla 50:00 D2C, I guess, no?

Nikhil Kamath 50:01 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 50:03 So I think GTM will be ... D2C will be interesting. But anyway, but for example, the market is, by the way, haircare is 7 to 8 billion. Skin is 6 billion. Beauty-

Bhakti Modi 50:12 But you're talking about also haircare as personal care.

Diipa Khosla 50:15 Yeah-

Shantanu Deshpande 50:15 Personal care

Diipa Khosla 50:15 ... you're talking personal care-

Bhakti Modi 50:16 Yeah

Shantanu Deshpande 50:16 ... so now, so now this is b- so, so now the haircare is-

Diipa Khosla 50:18 We play in the other haircare

Bhakti Modi 50:20 Hair, haircare-

Shantanu Deshpande 50:20 So haircare is 7 to 8 billion-

Nikhil Kamath 50:21 Yeah

Shantanu Deshpande 50:21 ... of which majority is oiled by [laughs] -

Bhakti Modi 50:23 You're talking [laughs] ...

Diipa Khosla 50:23 You're confusing us.

Bhakti Modi 50:24 You confused-

Diipa Khosla 50:25 You're talking haircare-

Bhakti Modi 50:25 ... personal care

Diipa Khosla 50:26 ... personal care, haircare.

Shantanu Deshpande 50:26 No, we s- okay, you said BPC, right? Beauty and personal care.

Diipa Khosla 50:29 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 50:29 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 50:29 You're saying only beauty.

Nikhil Kamath 50:30 No, I want to know the breakup of skincare, makeup-

Shantanu Deshpande 50:33 Okay

Nikhil Kamath 50:33 ... hair, fragrance.

Shantanu Deshpande 50:33 So you, you said skincare, right? So hair is 7 to 8 billion, of which majority is oil, by the way. The rest is shampoo-

Diipa Khosla 50:39 Parachute

Shantanu Deshpande 50:39 ... conditioner-

Diipa Khosla 50:39 Yeah

Shantanu Deshpande 50:40 ... Parachute and Vatika-

Diipa Khosla 50:41 Champi Khaman Poria

Shantanu Deshpande 50:42 ... Champi, all of that, [laughs] right?

Bhakti Modi 50:43 [laughs] So the, if, if you are looking at the skincare, fragrance, makeup-

Nikhil Kamath 50:46 How big is skincare?

Shantanu Deshpande 50:47 6 to 7 billion.

Bhakti Modi 50:48 S- skincare will be about 30%.

Nikhil Kamath 50:51 Okay.

Bhakti Modi 50:51 25 to 30%.

Nikhil Kamath 50:53 How big is makeup? Color cosmetics.

Shantanu Deshpande 50:53 3 billion.

Bhakti Modi 50:54 Makeup is also similarly 30%.

Shantanu Deshpande 50:56 3 billion?

Bhakti Modi 50:56 Yeah. You can take actually skincare as about 20%, makeup as about 25 to 30%. Fragrance is actually significantly-

Diipa Khosla 51:05 Fragrances

Bhakti Modi 51:05 ... high, 30%.

Diipa Khosla 51:06 Oh, yeah.

Bhakti Modi 51:06 Particularly in the prestige section.

Shantanu Deshpande 51:08 No, but of what? Of what? Of the total market?

Bhakti Modi 51:10 I'm talking about the beauty market only, which is 40 to 45%.

Diipa Khosla 51:13 I think there's a little bit of confusion here.

Shantanu Deshpande 51:15 Ah, okay.

Diipa Khosla 51:15 She-

Bhakti Modi 51:15 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 51:15 ... keeps talking about beauty. You're talking about beauty personal care.

Bhakti Modi 51:17 BPC, he talks about BPC.

Shantanu Deshpande 51:18 Correct.

Bhakti Modi 51:18 Exactly.

Shantanu Deshpande 51:19 So, so, so at a personal care level, hair is 7 to 8 billion, which includes Vatika, Dabur-

Bhakti Modi 51:24 Everything

Shantanu Deshpande 51:24 ... Amla, all of that.

Diipa Khosla 51:25 All of that.

Shantanu Deshpande 51:26 And Champi from Inde Wild.

Nikhil Kamath 51:27 Okay.

Shantanu Deshpande 51:27 So the whole thing.

Nikhil Kamath 51:27 Makeup is 3?

Shantanu Deshpande 51:28 Skincare is 6 billion, which include, by the way, Dove, Ponds-

Bhakti Modi 51:32 Everything

Shantanu Deshpande 51:32 ... Dettol, all the stuff that you were talking about, moisturizers, Glow and Lovely, everything.

Nikhil Kamath 51:37 Okay.

Shantanu Deshpande 51:37 Then beauty is 3 billion, of which I think the division-

Nikhil Kamath 51:41 What is beauty?

Shantanu Deshpande 51:42 Beauty would be color cosmetics. Uh, now there will be some l- now, I don't know where Minimalist will either sit in skincare or beauty. I, I think Nitin will say differently.

Diipa Khosla 51:50 We lie in beauty 'cause it's, it's skincare.

Shantanu Deshpande 51:53 It's in beauty.

Bhakti Modi 51:53 Skincare.

Nikhil Kamath 51:53 That's 3 billion.

Shantanu Deshpande 51:53 Three. And fragrances is 3 billion.

Nikhil Kamath 51:55 Okay.

Bhakti Modi 51:56 So beauty is growing faster than personal care, which is-

Shantanu Deshpande 51:59 Yes

Bhakti Modi 51:59 ... um, everything FMCG other than these four categories.

Shantanu Deshpande 52:03 Mm.

Bhakti Modi 52:03 And as I said, even in haircare, there's a difference. So there's certain pro- and this is a forever, uh, uh... There is no right answer to how you segregate this, right? There's every-

Diipa Khosla 52:12 Because there's always going to be-

Bhakti Modi 52:13 Every report, every report has a different answer.

Diipa Khosla 52:15 And there's a few products that are gray.

Bhakti Modi 52:16 Exactly.

Diipa Khosla 52:16 Like, uh, you know, the Glow and Lovely, we consider BPC. We wouldn't consider them in beauty-

Bhakti Modi 52:23 Beauty

Diipa Khosla 52:23 ... pure, but technically, they're a moisturizer. You know what I mean? So there is a few, I guess, those conglomerate brands-

Bhakti Modi 52:29 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 52:29 ... and the ones who have really been like legacy brands.

Shantanu Deshpande 52:32 Legacy brands, yeah.

Diipa Khosla 52:32 But mass, we consider them part of BPC. The, the skincare, like a Minimalist wouldn't be BPC. That would be beauty.

Bhakti Modi 52:40 Beauty.

Nikhil Kamath 52:40 Okay, let me rephrase

Nikhil Kamath 52:41 my question. Tell me which category is growing the fastest?

Bhakti Modi 52:44 Skincare.

Diipa Khosla 52:45 Fragrance.

Bhakti Modi 52:46 Yes, yes. Skin-

Diipa Khosla 52:47 Fragrance?

Shantanu Deshpande 52:47 I think fragrance is growing really fast.

Bhakti Modi 52:48 Skincare is growing (overlapping conversation)

Diipa Khosla 52:49 I think fragrance is gonna grow really fast.

Bhakti Modi 52:51 13?

Shantanu Deshpande 52:51 Fragrance is growing really fast. It's crazy.

Nikhil Kamath 52:52 And fast, you mean like 15%?

Shantanu Deshpande 52:54 No, I think-

Bhakti Modi 52:55 No, skincare between... So they are all growing between 10 to 13%, 'cause beauty, uh, beauty is growing at a 10%, 10 to 11% case right now.

Shantanu Deshpande 53:02 If you were to start today, start in a place where there is a the lo- uh, one is growth rate, the second is disruption.

Diipa Khosla 53:09 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 53:09 Mm.

Shantanu Deshpande 53:09 I agree with her. I think fragrance is seeing insane disruption-

Bhakti Modi 53:12 Yeah, 100%

Shantanu Deshpande 53:13 ... from last 15 years.

Diipa Khosla 53:14 Because why, is if you look at the Indian fragrance market right now, there's one of two things. You have the really expensive Chanel, Tom Fords, blah, blah, blah, above 10,000, 15,000, but originals. Then you have dupes, um, which I don't know the brand names fully, but they literally sell dupes of, say, the, the bestselling Gio, Acqua di Parmas, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Nikhil Kamath 53:37 Mm-hmm.

Diipa Khosla 53:37 599, 699-

Nikhil Kamath 53:39 I know this brand

Diipa Khosla 53:39 ... 799.

Shantanu Deshpande 53:39 Bella Vita.

Nikhil Kamath 53:40 Yeah, Bella Vita.

Diipa Khosla 53:40 Bella Vita.

Bhakti Modi 53:41 Bella Vita.

Shantanu Deshpande 53:41 We do it.

Diipa Khosla 53:42 Exactly.

Shantanu Deshpande 53:42 We do it.

Diipa Khosla 53:42 Exactly.

Shantanu Deshpande 53:42 Like a lot of people do it now.

Diipa Khosla 53:43 And that's really mass.

Bhakti Modi 53:45 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 53:45 This entire segment, [laughs] basically between 1,000 to 10,000, for the grabs. Yeah. Like, it's empty. It's just-

Shantanu Deshpande 53:55 Also, there's a lot happening with fragrances.

Diipa Khosla 53:56 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 53:56 So there's something called perfume wardrobing that's happening.

Bhakti Modi 53:58 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 53:59 Yes, layering.

Shantanu Deshpande 53:59 Explain.

Diipa Khosla 54:00 Layering.

Shantanu Deshpande 54:00 So earlier, l- so one is layering, second is perfume wardrobing. So when I grew up-

Diipa Khosla 54:04 Different occasions.

Bhakti Modi 54:04 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 54:05 Different moods.

Shantanu Deshpande 54:05 My dad and mom or I had, like, one or two fragrances-

Diipa Khosla 54:08 Yeah

Shantanu Deshpande 54:08 ... or perfumes at any given time. Today, a 25-year-old Bombay Shaving Company employee has, is buying three new fragrances a month.

Diipa Khosla 54:16 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 54:17 So now you're buying 10ml, 15ml, 20ml SKUs, packs of four, packs of six-

Diipa Khosla 54:21 Yeah

Shantanu Deshpande 54:21 ... packs of eight. So the entire... Like, Soan Papdi Tira bikta hai Reliance mein.

Nikhil Kamath 54:25 ... literally,

Speaker 54:25 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 54:26 it's kind of kept stacked one on-

54:27 So people are putting three, four things on at the same time?

54:29 No, no. So that's the layering part.

Speaker 54:30 That's one, that's one trend, that's layering.

Diipa Khosla 54:32 Layering.

Speaker 54:32 Where you, like, layer different to make a whole new fragrance that's unique to you.

Nikhil Kamath 54:36 Do you do that?

Speaker 54:36 The other one... Do I do that? S- little bit.

Nikhil Kamath 54:39 Yeah.

Speaker 54:40 Yeah, a little bit.

Nikhil Kamath 54:40 Do you do that?

Diipa Khosla 54:41 Yeah.

Speaker 54:41 Like, you'll pick your favorite, like, Jo Malone-

Diipa Khosla 54:43 Exactly

Speaker 54:43 ... you pick your favorite, like, Tom Ford, and mix it-

Diipa Khosla 54:45 Mix them

Speaker 54:45 ... then it's, like, your fragrance.

Diipa Khosla 54:46 And it's also different on you, 'cause-

Nikhil Kamath 54:47 That's Shah Rukh Khan said, no? It was... Sorry, I interrupted you. Sorry. [chuckles]

Diipa Khosla 54:50 No, I think it's also different on you, 'cause everyone has a different-

Nikhil Kamath 54:53 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 54:53 ... uh, you know, smell that they have-

Speaker 54:55 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 54:55 ... a partic- particular one.

Speaker 54:56 But what he's talking about is fragrance wardrobing.

Diipa Khosla 54:59 Wardrobing.

Nikhil Kamath 54:59 Wardrobing.

Speaker 54:59 Where now also for every mood-

Diipa Khosla 55:01 Mood. Oh, wow.

Speaker 55:03 Uh, for every mood, like date night, I want this fragrance. At work me, wants this fragrance.

Diipa Khosla 55:08 Yeah.

Speaker 55:08 Like, evening, chilling with my girlfriends, I want this fragrance. So you have, like, a different mood.

Nikhil Kamath 55:13 Also on the go, right? You're carrying it in your bag-

Speaker 55:15 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 55:15 On the go

Speaker 55:15 ... yeah.

Diipa Khosla 55:16 Re- on the go, refillables. I also think in fragrance, one more thing that's really, um, exploding is the cle- like, the cleanness of ingredients.

Nikhil Kamath 55:27 Mm.

Diipa Khosla 55:27 Because I think for so long, beauty in general, people are becoming more conscious of the ingredients-

Speaker 55:32 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 55:32 ... and how clean they are. But in fragrance specifically, under the name parfum or fragrance in your INCI list, INCI list is, um, the... How do I explain INCI list?

Speaker 55:43 The, the percentage of-

Nikhil Kamath 55:45 Yeah

Speaker 55:45 ... all your ingredients.

Diipa Khosla 55:45 Yeah, INCI list is like the, you know, the thing that you have to write on your labels-

Nikhil Kamath 55:49 Regulatory

Diipa Khosla 55:49 Yeah ... of all the regulatory ingredients.

Speaker 55:51 Yeah, regulatory.

Diipa Khosla 55:51 So with perfume, you can literally just say, "Parfum," and get away with it. But what people have found out is that there's a lot of endocrine-disrupting ingredients, like phthalates and this, that, within perfumes that get in, that people have been selling for so long. And a lot of the infertility rates and all of that stuff is increasing because of these phthalates, um, that people want clean ingredients. So clean fragrance, another huge trend. Thank you.

Nikhil Kamath 56:17 So India, I think one other-

56:18 By clean fragrance, you mean like vanilla, cherry, something like that?

56:21 No, that's a-

Speaker 56:21 No.

Nikhil Kamath 56:21 No, so...

56:23 Clean means what? [laughing]

56:23 Chemical. Like, che- the chemically, like, phthalate-

Speaker 56:27 Oh, yeah.

Diipa Khosla 56:27 I think you'll need a whole day with that term. [laughing]

Speaker 56:29 Vanilla and cherry, Nikhil, vanilla and cherry is gourmand.

Nikhil Kamath 56:32 Yeah, gourmand.

Speaker 56:32 That's like you want to eat that fragrance.

Diipa Khosla 56:34 That's a microtrend.

Nikhil Kamath 56:35 Okay.

56:35 It's a, it's-

56:36 But clean, you mean like it won't harm me?

Diipa Khosla 56:38 Ingredients.

Speaker 56:39 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 56:39 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 56:39 Just the-

Nikhil Kamath 56:40 Chem- chemically a lot

Speaker 56:40 ... the, the purity of the ingredients-

Diipa Khosla 56:43 Yeah

Speaker 56:43 ... the percentage of ingredients.

Diipa Khosla 56:45 The transparency, the, the like, no phthalates, no-

Nikhil Kamath 56:46 Give me an example of a perfume brand which does very clean.

Diipa Khosla 56:49 Um, in India, I don't know. In, in the West, there is, um, Josie Maran. It's this brand, like, a body care brand, that now have done this really strong movement on their no alcohol as a base, which is what majority of fragrances have. So they reduce the alcohol because it's, like, drying for your skin and hair, and their entire fragrance is 100% natural, as in essential oil fragrances. So they don't-

Nikhil Kamath 57:11 And do they last as long?

Diipa Khosla 57:13 It doesn't. It doesn't last as long.

Nikhil Kamath 57:14 So India is a hot country.

Speaker 57:15 It, it wears off.

Nikhil Kamath 57:16 The issue with Indian longevity of fragrances is that the Western climate is very different than the Indian one.

Speaker 57:20 Yeah, it is.

Nikhil Kamath 57:21 So we struggle.

Speaker 57:21 Yeah, for Indian consumers, the number one concern is-

Nikhil Kamath 57:24 So that won't work in India?

Speaker 57:25 ... long, long-lasting.

Diipa Khosla 57:25 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 57:26 It will need stronger fragrances.

Diipa Khosla 57:27 And that's why we like fragrances that have a lot more scent, right?

Speaker 57:30 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 57:30 Like the, the, the concentration of, um-

Speaker 57:33 The eau de parfums

Diipa Khosla 57:34 ... Exactly.

Speaker 57:34 Yeah, yeah.

Diipa Khosla 57:34 It has to be significantly high. They like strong-smelling perfumes-

Speaker 57:39 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 57:39 ... versus-

Nikhil Kamath 57:39 Right. But even this, the, the, the gourmand fragrances is a, is a two-year-old trend.

Speaker 57:43 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 57:43 So you'll see vanilla-

Speaker 57:44 Yes

Nikhil Kamath 57:44 ... croissant, like, all the baked goods.

57:45 That's working?

Speaker 57:46 Yeah. [laughing]

Diipa Khosla 57:47 Pistachio.

Nikhil Kamath 57:47 Today, a fragrance brand got funded.

Speaker 57:49 It's working.

Nikhil Kamath 57:49 Yeah?

Speaker 57:49 Sol de Janeiro is the biggest brand-

Diipa Khosla 57:52 Brand

Speaker 57:52 ... in beauty right now. It's all gourmand fragrances.

Diipa Khosla 57:56 All of them.

Speaker 57:56 Every single one of them is you just smell it, and you want to, like, eat it.

Diipa Khosla 57:59 Eat it.

Nikhil Kamath 58:00 I actually use perfumes like that. Like, I have coriander and...

58:03 [laughing]

Speaker 58:04 Coriander's a good one.

Diipa Khosla 58:05 Yeah.

Speaker 58:05 Good note, yeah.

Diipa Khosla 58:05 And that's, that's another one. Like, now everything in beauty is all about food. If you see, like, that's such a big-

Nikhil Kamath 58:12 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 58:12 ... thing that's happening, that it's like if you can eat it, you can put it on your face as well.

Nikhil Kamath 58:17 Mm.

Diipa Khosla 58:17 But that's a big trend, whether it's on content-

Speaker 58:20 Marketing, yeah

Diipa Khosla 58:20 ... whether it's on color, whether it's on marketing, storytelling. It's all about, like, you know, uh, cherry was the big trend, so...

Speaker 58:28 If you think of it psychologically, food hits such a nice place in your brain.

Diipa Khosla 58:32 Exactly.

Speaker 58:32 Like, anything that has-

Diipa Khosla 58:33 And it triggers that dopamine happening

Speaker 58:35 ... donuts or like our lip balm, like the, one of our lip balm flavors is glazed jalebi.

Diipa Khosla 58:38 Yeah.

Speaker 58:39 You know? And it does insanely well. It's because you get this happy emotion subconsciously with jalebi.

Nikhil Kamath 58:44 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 58:45 You're like, "Oh, I'm gonna put this in my lip balm."

Nikhil Kamath 58:46 And lip balm, you're tasting it.

Speaker 58:47 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 58:47 It's, really yeah.

Speaker 58:48 Exactly. It really-

Nikhil Kamath 58:49 Also, it's nostalgic, right?

Speaker 58:50 Exactly.

Diipa Khosla 58:50 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 58:50 So Mango Bite, for example, is now, like, a fragrance that people are, like, really looking for.

Speaker 58:54 Exactly.

Nikhil Kamath 58:54 Keyword searches for Mango Bite.

58:55 You make that?

58:56 Ram... No, we don't make it yet.

Speaker 58:57 You make Mango Bite fragrance?

Nikhil Kamath 58:58 We don't yet, but we have-

Speaker 58:59 Um, pis- there's a pistachio gelato.

Nikhil Kamath 59:01 Pistachio is done. There-

Speaker 59:02 Like, Kayali has-

Nikhil Kamath 59:04 Which guy?

Speaker 59:04 ... these fragrances.

Nikhil Kamath 59:05 Which guy?

Speaker 59:05 Kayali, um, but it's by Mona Kattan. It's a-

Diipa Khosla 59:07 A Dubai-based

Speaker 59:08 ... uh, Dubai-based brand, and she has done all... Like, she has really caught on to the gourmand trend, and-

Nikhil Kamath 59:14 Pistachio, I saw someone else also have a-

Speaker 59:15 Pistachio gelato.

Diipa Khosla 59:16 Matcha.

Speaker 59:17 Matcha.

Nikhil Kamath 59:17 Matcha, of course.

Speaker 59:18 Everyone's doing matcha, of course.

Nikhil Kamath 59:19 That smells bad.

Speaker 59:20 No!

Nikhil Kamath 59:21 It really smells bad.

Diipa Khosla 59:21 But they make it smell good. They make it smell [laughing] -

Speaker 59:23 They can make it smell good, yeah.

Diipa Khosla 59:24 They can make it smell good.

Nikhil Kamath 59:24 Good and bad is so subjective. [laughing]

Diipa Khosla 59:26 Mochi.

Speaker 59:27 Mochi. But yeah, fragrance is going to... I think it... [laughing] Who is going to make the first laddu fragrance?

Nikhil Kamath 59:33 Yeah, besan ka laddu, like a nostalgia.

59:35 Okay, I want to sum- summarize a bit of what you said. You said the category overall is about 21 billion. Skincare, six; makeup, three; hair, seven; fragrance, three. Fastest-growing is skincare and fragrance.

Speaker 59:49 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 59:50 Making deals with salons when you're starting a brand might be a good idea. Old products-

Speaker 59:56 For hair care.

Nikhil Kamath 59:56 For hair care.

Speaker 59:57 Yeah, that's... And professional hair care, right? Like, if you're looking to work with, with sa- with professional, um, grade products, so you need to be able to call your brand a professional brand to be actually be able to work with them.

Nikhil Kamath 1:00:12 Old products made cooler, nostalgia sells. You said Western, better, still sells, but the trend is shifting. Shifting faster in premium and prestige-... and slower in mass. Mass is below thousand, premium is thousand, prestige is 2,300. Yeah?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:00:31 But I wanted to ask you a little bit... Sorry, sorry, complete your thought. I, I did have a-

Nikhil Kamath 1:00:34 All product companies are media companies. You need to run a media company if you want to sell a product.

Speaker 1:00:38 And community.

Diipa Khosla 1:00:40 Community.

Nikhil Kamath 1:00:41 You said community,

Nikhil Kamath 1:00:42 but we didn't finish the thought on... You hinted at offline might be better than online, or you need to have offline.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:00:51 No, I don't think so.

Diipa Khosla 1:00:52 I think it's a-

Nikhil Kamath 1:00:52 And then we moved on to influencers. [laughs]

Diipa Khosla 1:00:54 Okay, we can d- we can go back to community. So I think community, like again, what Bhakti said, it's a buzzword today. Everybody's like, "Community, community, community!" But I think I can only speak for us, but at Inde Wild, everything we do starts and ends with community. And I mean in it every aspect. Like, before we launched the brand, we had surveys that, uh, were written by 16,000 of my, like, followers that really said everything. I had 13 focus groups before the brand even existed, asking them, "What do you care about? What is your skincare concerns? What is it not in the market?" Like, you know, really figuring it out. Even in our bio till today, it says, "Co-created by you." So that is pre-brand launch. Once the brand launched, you know, we really interact... Like, even the way our customer service is done, it's not like a, "Oh, order misplaced. Okay, here's your number. Go fig- figure it out." Like, we really genuinely talk to them, like, we'd say, educated bestie. Like, you are their bestie, you talk to them, you keep the conversation going. It's not just like, "Finish, order done." And so in every aspect of Inde Wild, community is infused.

Nikhil Kamath 1:02:01 It almost sounds like you're saying listen to your followers-

Diipa Khosla 1:02:04 Yes

Nikhil Kamath 1:02:04 ... and speak to them constantly.

Diipa Khosla 1:02:06 Exactly. And then-

Nikhil Kamath 1:02:06 Is that community? 'Cause I don't know what, community is sounding like spirituality to me.

Diipa Khosla 1:02:10 I, I don't think it's about, uh, uh, that-

Nikhil Kamath 1:02:12 We all mean different things.

Diipa Khosla 1:02:14 I think it's in... It's everything together, and-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:02:17 What is the best community? Who runs the best community in India?

Bhakti Modi 1:02:19 I mean, I think if you take, uh, take his example, it is about, like, there is a whole community of people who like to take care of their beards.

Diipa Khosla 1:02:28 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:02:28 It's a, it's a small one, but there is a whole community that looks at it as self-care versus just looking at it as, um, you know, something you have to do on a day-to-day level. So now that community is very different from people who use the products as personal grooming products. They actually... And I have a friend in London who really takes- who has a three st- three to four-step grooming routine for his beard. He lives in London, so he has a Turkish barber who he goes to every month to take care of his, uh, beard. And he... It's, it's his ritual, and it's his self-care ritual, right? And now there may be a-

Nikhil Kamath 1:03:04 I suspect Shantanu is a bit like that.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:03:05 [laughs] Sorry?

Nikhil Kamath 1:03:06 No, I said I suspect you might be a bit like that. You have your barber who does everything and stuff like that.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:03:10 Yeah. So we have a group, whole group of barbers who kind of work with us.

Bhakti Modi 1:03:14 And that's, that is exactly a community.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:03:17 But, uh, yeah, but... So is that a community or a group of people who have something in common?

Bhakti Modi 1:03:20 No!

Shantanu Deshpande 1:03:20 Because community also talk to each other, right?

Speaker 1:03:21 How do you translate that into a community, it means?

Bhakti Modi 1:03:23 Yeah, so it's, it is about... 'Cause they have a shared value, right? So I think if, if I have to simplify what a community is, it is a group of people who have certain shared values that they can come together and speak about. So as I said, if you have acne concerns, that's a, you know, that, that's a community. And you may have a micro community in that saying, "You know, I'm, I'm 15 years old," and then there's these young teenage, you know, like, "I've just grown out of..." Or mums, for example, you know? The I, I have, uh, uh, I have two nieces, and they're now 11, you know, in the 11 to 13 age bracket, and they are the most impressionable, um-

Diipa Khosla 1:04:05 Mm

Bhakti Modi 1:04:05 ... uh, age group now, and they're also the most exposed. I don't think when I was 11 or 12, I really cared about skincare. My mom just said, "Wash your face," and that's about it. They know every single brand that's trending. Whenever they go to a Tira store, my nieces will be like, "Oh, B- I, we saw that you launched, you launched Fenty, you launched that brand." They know everything. They told me like, "Oh, why don't you have this brand?" They know it a lot more. So there's exposure, but with that comes a lot more pressure as well. Right now, their mums are a community because they're trying to figure out-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:04:35 Mums are big communities

Bhakti Modi 1:04:35 ... how can, what... Like, my sister's always asking me, "Listen, what can I use?" You know, if she's having an acne breakout, so-

Diipa Khosla 1:04:42 I think also what, what happens with community is if when you're truly a community of a brand, you have a choice. You could go to any other brand.

Bhakti Modi 1:04:50 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:04:50 Like, what, they could buy hair oil from any other brand, but the fact that they choose to come back-

Bhakti Modi 1:04:56 To you

Diipa Khosla 1:04:56 ... to Inde Wild every time, that to me is a community. And how you make it, I mean, I leave it to the creative lens of the teams as well. Like, I, like-

Nikhil Kamath 1:05:05 So is community a emotion?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:05:06 Yes.

Diipa Khosla 1:05:07 Yes.

Bhakti Modi 1:05:07 It's definitely an emotion.

Nikhil Kamath 1:05:08 So you pick one emotion, stay consistent, then you listen and speak to your followers while reiterating that emotion-

Diipa Khosla 1:05:16 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:05:16 Yes

Nikhil Kamath 1:05:17 ... and communicate the message.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:05:17 And you're the custodian of the emotion.

Diipa Khosla 1:05:18 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:05:19 How do I pick what emotion for my community?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:05:21 That's a very good question. That's a very... I think you, you have done six, seven years of community building, followed by brand building on the back of that community.

Diipa Khosla 1:05:29 Correct.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:05:29 So what is that emotion for Inde Wild, for example? Is it you? Are you the emotion?

Diipa Khosla 1:05:33 No, I think it's bigger than me. I think the, the real emotion of an Inde Wild-

Nikhil Kamath 1:05:38 Hot girl.

Diipa Khosla 1:05:38 Huh?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:05:39 [laughs]

Diipa Khosla 1:05:40 ... "..."

Shantanu Deshpande 1:05:40 Hot girl. [laughs]

Diipa Khosla 1:05:41 [laughs]

Nikhil Kamath 1:05:42 Is that-

Diipa Khosla 1:05:42 God!

Nikhil Kamath 1:05:42 I mean, that could be an emotion, right?

Diipa Khosla 1:05:44 It could, it could. Absolutely.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:05:44 The more, the more basic, the stronger it is.

Diipa Khosla 1:05:46 Identity, vulnerability. Like, I think our community's real thing... Honestly, I think in... There's pride. Definitely, there's pride. Like, Inde Wild being that first global Indian brand, there's that pride to it, like Hamara, like it's ours.

Nikhil Kamath 1:06:00 Are you selling patriotism?

Diipa Khosla 1:06:02 Yes.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:06:02 You have a-

Diipa Khosla 1:06:03 Definitely

Shantanu Deshpande 1:06:03 ... IN in the name, no?

Diipa Khosla 1:06:04 There's, Inde, Inde Wild is purely a very proud of our culture brand.

Nikhil Kamath 1:06:08 Is that working more?

Diipa Khosla 1:06:09 Like, we're very proud.

Nikhil Kamath 1:06:10 Patriotism is selling?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:06:11 Oh, for sure.

Speaker 1:06:11 Oh, for sure.

Diipa Khosla 1:06:11 Especially-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:06:12 For sure

Diipa Khosla 1:06:12 ... if the West is also like, "Wow, Champi! Wow, Inde Wild," then India's like, "Well, our Champi?"

Nikhil Kamath 1:06:19 [laughs]

Diipa Khosla 1:06:19 "Yeah, like, our Inde Wild?"

Nikhil Kamath 1:06:21 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:06:21 And so I think there's definitely pride and, and patriotism there. But there's also this-... there is indeed that cool girl effect, what you said. Like, Inde Wild users are a certain type. Like, Rhode is a great example of that as well.

Nikhil Kamath 1:06:34 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:06:34 If you use Rhode, subconsciously you're like, "I'm part of the it girl."

Nikhil Kamath 1:06:37 It girl, yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:06:38 "I'm an it girl because I use Rhode." And Inde Wild-

Nikhil Kamath 1:06:40 And how do I show that? The first few-

Diipa Khosla 1:06:43 Content? Content.

Nikhil Kamath 1:06:43 Community members I have, have to be good-looking girls as well?

Diipa Khosla 1:06:47 Not good-looking necessarily. It's more what does a confident girl exuberate? It's, it's confidence. It's you're dressed well, you're sure of yourself. Like, it doesn't have to necessarily be hot, but it can also be imperfectly beautiful, um-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:07:00 Let's actually do this. Let's do this.

Bhakti Modi 1:07:01 And it's also lifestyle, right? You, you can-

Diipa Khosla 1:07:04 Exactly.

Bhakti Modi 1:07:04 You talk about the lifestyle that comes with being the it girls.

Diipa Khosla 1:07:08 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:07:08 So my circle of friends, my, you know-

Diipa Khosla 1:07:11 Yeah

Bhakti Modi 1:07:11 ... buying into the wellness, uh, my-

Diipa Khosla 1:07:13 I go to Pilates in the morning

Bhakti Modi 1:07:14 ... my Sunday matcha with my Pilates-

Diipa Khosla 1:07:16 Yeah

Bhakti Modi 1:07:16 ... my athleisure.

Nikhil Kamath 1:07:17 You're, you're depicting affluence by making it about matcha and-

Diipa Khosla 1:07:21 Yes.

Nikhil Kamath 1:07:22 Right? So affluence-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:07:23 Affluence and identity. So let's, let's, let's do this thought experiment with your company. You have two crores. You now want to build a brand and presence-

Diipa Khosla 1:07:28 He hasn't said if it's women or men's yet. [laughing]

Shantanu Deshpande 1:07:30 Let's agree.

Nikhil Kamath 1:07:31 Women's.

Diipa Khosla 1:07:31 Okay, acha.

Nikhil Kamath 1:07:32 I don't want to build for, uh- [laughing]

Bhakti Modi 1:07:34 [laughing]

Shantanu Deshpande 1:07:34 The market is just so small.

Diipa Khosla 1:07:35 He's like, "It's too slow-growing for me." [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:07:37 I would maybe-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:07:38 But if you're going to build fragrances-

Diipa Khosla 1:07:40 Are you building a fragrance?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:07:41 Then-

Nikhil Kamath 1:07:41 Yeah

Shantanu Deshpande 1:07:42 ... the world is moving towards unisex, by the way.

Diipa Khosla 1:07:43 Gourmand.

Nikhil Kamath 1:07:43 Yeah?

Diipa Khosla 1:07:44 Gourmand fragrances.

Nikhil Kamath 1:07:45 I mean, I want you to tell me.

Diipa Khosla 1:07:46 I think gourmand.

Bhakti Modi 1:07:47 No, I think it can be for every mood, right? So you can have a whole variety of fragrances.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:07:52 Mm.

Bhakti Modi 1:07:53 I think what you would pick is a hook. Like, for example, Jo Malone is based on these beautiful ingredient stories-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:08:00 Yeah

Bhakti Modi 1:08:00 ... and they really, really present it so well.

Nikhil Kamath 1:08:02 Okay, let's say Nikhil's Fragrance Company.

Diipa Khosla 1:08:04 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:08:05 Actually, don't say Nikhil, 'cause I probably have a community. Let's say, uh-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:08:10 What the Fragrance?

Nikhil Kamath 1:08:11 Huh?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:08:12 What the Fragrance?

Diipa Khosla 1:08:13 What the Fragrance.

Nikhil Kamath 1:08:14 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:08:14 What the also has a community.

Nikhil Kamath 1:08:15 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:08:16 That's, that's the whole thing, no?

Nikhil Kamath 1:08:17 Let's say my name is Dilip, and I'm building a perfume company. [laughing]

Bhakti Modi 1:08:22 [laughing]

Diipa Khosla 1:08:23 First question, what is your emotion that you want to sell?

Nikhil Kamath 1:08:25 I'm 25 years old. I live in Bangalore.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:08:31 You have two crore rupees.

Nikhil Kamath 1:08:32 I have two crore rupees that I borrowed. I spent the last many years of my life going to a engineering college, but today AI has come, and I'm feeling very-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:08:44 Irrelevant

Nikhil Kamath 1:08:44 ... obsolete and irrelevant.

Diipa Khosla 1:08:45 First question: What's your why?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:08:47 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:08:47 Yeah. What's the white space?

Nikhil Kamath 1:08:49 What's my why of fragrance company?

Diipa Khosla 1:08:52 What's your why? Why are you, engineer at 25, wanting to build a fragrance company?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:08:57 It's a very good question because there are many reasons why people are doing this.

Nikhil Kamath 1:09:00 Because I go to a engineering college in South Bangalore. I used to go, and people smell really bad, and I want to change this.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:09:08 Excellent.

Bhakti Modi 1:09:08 I actually really like that.

Diipa Khosla 1:09:10 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:09:10 That's a good point.

Diipa Khosla 1:09:10 That's a very good start.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:09:12 And why do they smell bad?

Nikhil Kamath 1:09:15 Because they don't use fragrance.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:09:17 No, they probably do. You're smelling them in the evening.

Nikhil Kamath 1:09:20 I smell-

Diipa Khosla 1:09:21 Sweat.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:09:22 In India, the... In India, the, the dust will-

Diipa Khosla 1:09:23 You-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:09:23 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:09:24 We have it. We've done it for you. Your brand is going to be India's premium brand focused on a technology that changes sweat, that the sweat stink can be altered or differentiated, like a odor-fix technology that you put as your proprietary ingredient within your fragrances.

Bhakti Modi 1:09:41 But you only have two crores to do all of this, so I, I would, I would- [laughing]

Diipa Khosla 1:09:44 You need to find the ingredient

Nikhil Kamath 1:09:45 ... No, to start, and then I'll come to you guys and raise some money.

Bhakti Modi 1:09:47 Ah.

Diipa Khosla 1:09:47 So while-

Nikhil Kamath 1:09:48 Yeah

Bhakti Modi 1:09:48 ... you have a problem, I would say, okay, there may be two or three or four companies already doing what you're doing.

Nikhil Kamath 1:09:54 Mm.

Bhakti Modi 1:09:54 So I think, yes, that's your problem, but-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:09:56 I like that already

Bhakti Modi 1:09:57 ... you know, how would you kind of solve the white space? So-

Diipa Khosla 1:10:00 But I think having a why is very, very powerful-

Bhakti Modi 1:10:02 Yeah, absolutely

Diipa Khosla 1:10:03 ... in storytelling-

Bhakti Modi 1:10:03 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 1:10:04 ... and, like, in being authentic and real, you know? Like, if you just make a business 'cause, like, white space, money, like-

Bhakti Modi 1:10:09 No, I'm, I'm coming from a very, like, very m- practical mindset-

Diipa Khosla 1:10:15 Of course

Bhakti Modi 1:10:15 ... as well.

Diipa Khosla 1:10:15 Of course.

Bhakti Modi 1:10:15 Because while you have the storytelling, I think a lot of brands also fail because they have storytelling, they have, they have all of these other things-

Nikhil Kamath 1:10:24 So they don't have the story now

Bhakti Modi 1:10:25 ... they don't have this.

Nikhil Kamath 1:10:26 Yeah. So I'm here.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:10:28 I think-

Nikhil Kamath 1:10:28 I've figured that why is people around me smell horrible.

Diipa Khosla 1:10:31 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 1:10:32 Uh, they don't use perfumes-

Diipa Khosla 1:10:33 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:10:33 ... or maybe they do, but it's not working. Deepa suggested that-

Diipa Khosla 1:10:37 Public service, we create a odor-fix technology.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:10:41 [laughing]

Bhakti Modi 1:10:41 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:10:41 It could go huge.

Bhakti Modi 1:10:43 M- maybe-

Nikhil Kamath 1:10:43 Yeah

Bhakti Modi 1:10:44 ... you're an engineering student who's never-

Diipa Khosla 1:10:46 Who doesn't want to stink

Bhakti Modi 1:10:46 ... from South Bangalore, but who's never been seen, right? Like, I think-

Nikhil Kamath 1:10:49 Can I, can I market it with the story of do it for me, not for you?

Diipa Khosla 1:10:52 No.

Bhakti Modi 1:10:52 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:10:52 And you put on the perfume.

Bhakti Modi 1:10:53 Absolutely not.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:10:54 [laughing]

Bhakti Modi 1:10:54 You cannot do that.

Diipa Khosla 1:10:56 [laughing]

Bhakti Modi 1:10:56 You can't market it like that.

Nikhil Kamath 1:10:58 You're take-

Bhakti Modi 1:10:58 You will not build a community. You will lose it.

Diipa Khosla 1:11:01 You can take a sarcastic, uh, marketing technique, which is also very out there.

Bhakti Modi 1:11:04 Yeah, that's true.

Diipa Khosla 1:11:04 There is a market for it.

Nikhil Kamath 1:11:06 Okay, I'm on Instagram.

Diipa Khosla 1:11:08 If he's tongue-in-cheek about it, yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:11:09 Yeah, yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:11:09 There's so many brands that use tongue-in-cheek.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:11:10 He will be consistent for, like, 10 years.

Nikhil Kamath 1:11:11 I'm on Instagram. I have 445 followers. Okay?

Diipa Khosla 1:11:16 Actually, Bhakti, I like that idea. Be tongue-in-cheek sarcastic-

Bhakti Modi 1:11:19 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 1:11:19 ... saying, "You stink."

Bhakti Modi 1:11:20 Be sarcastic.

Diipa Khosla 1:11:20 "Nobody's ever told you you stink."

Nikhil Kamath 1:11:22 Mm.

Diipa Khosla 1:11:22 "So this is my brand for you, the person who people don't say you stink."

Bhakti Modi 1:11:27 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:11:27 And all of us in the humidity sweat and stink, right? And-

Bhakti Modi 1:11:30 And no, and-

Diipa Khosla 1:11:31 If you would-

Bhakti Modi 1:11:31 You, you always want to tell that one friend, "Listen, here, here's the perfume. Use it."

Diipa Khosla 1:11:35 But you don't want to hurt too. Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:11:37 So now your brand will do it for you.

Nikhil Kamath 1:11:38 Should I call my perfume Stench?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:11:40 Call them what? Call your perfume Stench?

Diipa Khosla 1:11:41 If you're going to be a tongue-in-cheek branding overall-

Nikhil Kamath 1:11:44 [laughing]

Shantanu Deshpande 1:11:44 No!

Diipa Khosla 1:11:45 I mean-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:11:45 You can't break category codes so much also.

Diipa Khosla 1:11:47 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:11:48 No?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:11:48 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:11:48 You want it to be positively reinforcing in some way, right? Like, "Oh, I'm going to use this, it's-

Diipa Khosla 1:11:53 Yeah, Stench is a bit far.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:11:54 Every-

Diipa Khosla 1:11:54 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:11:54 Yeah, every perfume and deodorant and flavor brand is about-

Nikhil Kamath 1:11:56 How about I ca- I call it Gutter? [laughing]

Shantanu Deshpande 1:12:00 You can. It's a big risk.

Bhakti Modi 1:12:01 [laughing]

Shantanu Deshpande 1:12:02 It's a risk Dilip would not take, right? [laughing]

Diipa Khosla 1:12:03 Just stick to fintech. [laughing]

Bhakti Modi 1:12:06 [laughing] I like this old people.

Diipa Khosla 1:12:09 Yeah. [laughing]

Shantanu Deshpande 1:12:09 I think Nikhil can take that risk. Dilip should not.

Nikhil Kamath 1:12:12 Right.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:12:12 Dilip, I think, follow, follow category codes as well.

Bhakti Modi 1:12:13 And I'm definitely not listing it on Tira. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:12:15 No?

Diipa Khosla 1:12:15 No.

Nikhil Kamath 1:12:16 You wouldn't list it if there was a perfume called Stench, if people asked for it?

Diipa Khosla 1:12:21 So beauty is about making people feel-

Bhakti Modi 1:12:22 Feel good-

Diipa Khosla 1:12:23 good

Bhakti Modi 1:12:23 ... about themselves.

Diipa Khosla 1:12:24 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:12:25 But everybody's doing that.

Bhakti Modi 1:12:26 But again, it's about-

Guest 1:12:28 ... That's why your marketing can be tongue-in-cheek.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:12:30 For a reason, no?

Guest 1:12:30 Like, your content can be tongue-in-cheek.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:12:32 Mm-hmm.

Guest 1:12:33 That can be a bit sarcastic, that can be funny, but-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:12:36 But why would you call it Gutter or Stench?

Guest 1:12:36 Yeah, don't do that.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:12:37 That's not what the product is, no?

Guest 1:12:39 But then you're saying the opposite of what your product is doing.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:12:41 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:12:41 Ha- and that's the first thing that people see, right? Like, that's the first relation they make. What's the name of your product, or what's the story you're telling? And-

Nikhil Kamath 1:12:48 Okay, so what do I call it?

Guest 1:12:50 Anything else, like something-

Nikhil Kamath 1:12:51 For example?

Guest 1:12:51 ... positive. Um, I Got You. [laughs]

Shantanu Deshpande 1:12:55 So for example, look, l- but Nikhil, let's take it, take it a step back, right? What are the big trends? Like, one is gourmand, second is-

Nikhil Kamath 1:13:01 Yeah

Shantanu Deshpande 1:13:02 ... oud.

Guest 1:13:02 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:13:02 Third is-

Guest 1:13:02 Oud is huge.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:13:03 Oud is big. Third is there is Kannauj is now the mecca of fragrances.

Nikhil Kamath 1:13:07 What is-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:13:07 So Dilip should go to Kannauj.

Nikhil Kamath 1:13:08 What is Kannauj?

Guest 1:13:09 Kannauj is this little place in... It's like the gr- grass of India.

Bhakti Modi 1:13:12 Yeah.

Guest 1:13:12 It's like this perfume-

Nikhil Kamath 1:13:13 Oh, like that wet sand smell are you talking about?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:13:15 No, no, no.

Guest 1:13:16 No, no, it's a place-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:13:17 The perfumeries-

Guest 1:13:17 ... where they make perfume

Shantanu Deshpande 1:13:18 ... there are perfumers there-

Nikhil Kamath 1:13:19 Right

Shantanu Deshpande 1:13:20 ... who, like, in the thousands.

Nikhil Kamath 1:13:21 Where is this place?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:13:22 Kannauj is, uh, UP, I think.

Nikhil Kamath 1:13:24 I'm gonna write down, "Go to Kannauj."

Shantanu Deshpande 1:13:26 Kannauj, K-A-N-N-A-U-J.

Nikhil Kamath 1:13:27 What else?

Guest 1:13:28 Be a trip.

Bhakti Modi 1:13:28 I think also going back to what Deepa said about nostalgia-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:13:31 Yeah

Bhakti Modi 1:13:31 ... there are so many beautiful Indian inspi- you know, fragrances that are native to India, and that's a big trend that's, you know, picking up now, and people are kind of also giving that, um, uh, you know, alluding to Indian fragrances as well, right? Like, jasmine is so powerful, but it's, it's never found that rooting... We've never kind of overly commercialized it from a beauty perspective.

Guest 1:13:54 But the craziest thing, Chanel Number 5, everybody knows Chanel Number 5.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:13:59 Mm-hmm.

Bhakti Modi 1:14:00 Yes.

Guest 1:14:00 Their two main key notes-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:14:02 Yeah

Guest 1:14:02 ... is from India.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:14:03 Yeah.

Guest 1:14:03 It's the jasmine and the rose from India. Like, in their documentary-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:14:07 Yeah

Guest 1:14:07 ... they literally showcase, like, "Oh, the Indian jasminica"

Shantanu Deshpande 1:14:11 [laughing]

Guest 1:14:11 ... and la, la, la.

Bhakti Modi 1:14:12 Yeah.

Guest 1:14:12 It's literally from India, and a French brand has used it for centuries now.

Bhakti Modi 1:14:16 Yeah.

Guest 1:14:16 And yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:14:17 Okay, guys-

Guest 1:14:18 Time to take ownership.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:14:19 I also feel like the other big trend in fragrances is that there is gender neutrality happening there. Like, like-

Bhakti Modi 1:14:25 Yeah

Shantanu Deshpande 1:14:25 ... people are n- it's the, the strong fragrances you're talking about-

Bhakti Modi 1:14:27 My husband and I share fragrances.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:14:29 Yeah.

Guest 1:14:29 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:14:29 Very easily. Yeah, p- yeah, fruit-

Bhakti Modi 1:14:31 We go fragrance shopping together, actually.

Guest 1:14:33 Mm.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:14:34 Fruit is becoming very common.

Guest 1:14:35 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:14:35 No wonder Teja smells feminine.

Bhakti Modi 1:14:37 [laughing]

Guest 1:14:38 I don't only wear feminine fragrances.

Bhakti Modi 1:14:41 Then also to the whole layering bit, right? So you can have a floral fragrance, and then pair it-

Guest 1:14:45 Yeah

Bhakti Modi 1:14:45 ... with something extremely musky.

Guest 1:14:47 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:14:48 And then you have a fragrance that's not too feminine, but just enough that you like it, and it's, it's masculine on your spectrum or on what you would-

Guest 1:14:56 There's a spectrum in fragrance-

Bhakti Modi 1:14:58 Exactly

Guest 1:14:58 ... but I think there will always be a differentiation between, like, men and women.

Nikhil Kamath 1:15:02 I, I take issue of this layering thing. I feel like...

Bhakti Modi 1:15:05 So brands themselves, by the way, now sell, uh, perfumes layered together, so-

Guest 1:15:10 Why do you, why do you find that an issue?

Nikhil Kamath 1:15:13 I'm paying a brand for their taste-

Guest 1:15:17 For their nose to do the job.

Nikhil Kamath 1:15:18 Yeah. Why would I pay Chanel's perfumer or gourmand, or whatever he's called, money for his taste and his nose, and then I take it and try to make it my own?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:15:29 But it's like you're saying that you'll buy all your clothes from the same brand. The plain-

Nikhil Kamath 1:15:33 No, I will not go to, say, Tom Ford and say, "Okay, now stitch a flower over here, and then cut this part off, and make it in this-"

Shantanu Deshpande 1:15:41 Would you go-

Guest 1:15:41 I think it's just creativity.

Bhakti Modi 1:15:42 It's about self-expression.

Guest 1:15:42 It's just individuality, and sex- yeah, self-expression. You just-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:15:45 Minimalist ka first brand was actually this whole... You remember that, right? Minimalist first brand was, these guys said, "You tell me all the ingredients you want and all the stuff you want done, and we'll put it together and give you a personalized-

Guest 1:15:56 Yeah

Shantanu Deshpande 1:15:56 ... shampoo or a personalized body wash."

Guest 1:15:57 But that happens in the, in the US-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:15:59 Yeah

Guest 1:15:59 ... a lot. Like, it may not be-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:16:00 But how did it look?

Guest 1:16:00 ... everything you want, but in skincare they will q- they will create a, a specialized-

Nikhil Kamath 1:16:05 Questionnaire and all that, yeah.

Guest 1:16:06 Yeah, questionnaire. You know, based on your skin type-

Bhakti Modi 1:16:08 I wonder if that business model works, though.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:16:09 It's very hard. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:16:10 I've tried that. It's a pain in the ass.

Bhakti Modi 1:16:11 Yeah.

Guest 1:16:11 It's crazy.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:16:12 No reason to do it.

Bhakti Modi 1:16:12 I, I mean, your, your supply chain just goes for a toss.

Guest 1:16:15 Mm.

Bhakti Modi 1:16:15 But, um, I think that people have tried it, right? Hyper-personalized skincare.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:16:20 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:16:20 So that's, that's there now, because remember we were talking about how beauty has been through those phases? Beauty is in this self-expression phase, so while it's a shared value, community is also driving beauty. It's still you. There is a you and an us, and the you part of you is driving all of these, um, movements.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:16:38 But you know what, Bhakti, I think for your business-

Nikhil Kamath 1:16:40 Huh?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:16:41 ... the layering part can actually be a part of your offering.

Bhakti Modi 1:16:43 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:16:43 Because in fragrances, it's a lot easier. It's much easier to mix fragrances together.

Nikhil Kamath 1:16:48 But I'm a 25-year-old guy. I've lost my job, and-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:16:50 Go to Kannauj

Nikhil Kamath 1:16:50 ... thinking what to do in life. I don't want to have 10 bottles, and I'm layering.

Bhakti Modi 1:16:54 But you're upselling, right?

Guest 1:16:54 Are you confusing your customer?

Bhakti Modi 1:16:57 You're cross-selling.

Nikhil Kamath 1:16:58 I'm selling it to people like-

Guest 1:16:59 Is it for yourself or to women?

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:01 I'm selling-

Guest 1:17:01 We started off saying women, nah? So then why do you keep thinking of Dilpreet? [laughing]

Shantanu Deshpande 1:17:05 [laughing]

Bhakti Modi 1:17:05 Dilip.

Guest 1:17:05 It's Dilip. [laughing]

Shantanu Deshpande 1:17:07 What do you call him?

Guest 1:17:08 Dilpreet. [laughing]

Shantanu Deshpande 1:17:10 No, but tell me one thing.

Guest 1:17:12 Tell me.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:17:12 Um, you want to build a fragrance brand-

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:14 Yeah

Shantanu Deshpande 1:17:15 ... and you-

Bhakti Modi 1:17:15 For women

Shantanu Deshpande 1:17:16 ... your issue is that you don't want to- want them to go to, like, 10, 10 fragrances and buy Bella Vita kayak or you know, this-

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:22 No, I don't want that.

Bhakti Modi 1:17:23 But you can yourself-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:17:25 You can do it

Bhakti Modi 1:17:25 ... create. You can... You sell it to the consumer saying, "Hey, you take this fragrance. Great, you like it on its own? Amazing."

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:31 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:17:31 "But you take this plus this, and now you've got-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:17:33 You're done

Bhakti Modi 1:17:33 ... a fragrance specially for you, and I'm telling you how to create it." So-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:17:37 You remember the big moment in fragrance, no, the big aha moment in layering?

Bhakti Modi 1:17:40 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:17:40 You know, when it happened?

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:40 I don't, I don't...

Shantanu Deshpande 1:17:41 It was an Instagram reel-

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:42 Mm

Shantanu Deshpande 1:17:43 ... which had 20 Bollywood actresses saying, "I just love how Shah Rukh Khan smells."

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:47 Mm.

Guest 1:17:48 Oh.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:17:48 "He will, he will smoke-

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:49 He does smell good

Shantanu Deshpande 1:17:49 ... but he smells amazing." There's Kareena Kapoor and Priyanka Chopra and Katrina, all the women who men aspire to, like, date someone like her or marry someone like her, saying, "This dude smells so good." And then there's a separate video of Shah Rukh Khan saying, "I layer two fragrances, Diptyque something and something something." And then there are 20 entre- Dilips in India, who combined these two fragrances, made a sku, and just sold it on Myntra like wow!

Nikhil Kamath 1:18:14 You know what he does? He doesn't spray perfume on himself. He takes his jacket, holds it like this, and he sprays-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:18:20 [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:18:20 ... like 20 times.

Guest 1:18:21 How do you know that?

Nikhil Kamath 1:18:22 'Cause I've seen him do it. [laughing]

Shantanu Deshpande 1:18:24 [laughing] That- I think-

Guest 1:18:25 Some people also spray and walk into it.

Bhakti Modi 1:18:27 Yeah, that's like-

Nikhil Kamath 1:18:29 Yeah

Bhakti Modi 1:18:29 ... you do it and then-

Nikhil Kamath 1:18:30 ... Does any of that make a difference? I'm not still selling this, guys. Like, Dilip has no business going right now. [chuckles]

Diipa Khosla 1:18:36 You need to believe, Dilip.

Bhakti Modi 1:18:37 You, you need to have, yeah. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:18:40 [laughing] It's not working out.

Diipa Khosla 1:18:41 Dilip is not delusional enough to be a entrepreneur.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:18:44 Look, guys, I- you want to do fragrances, but you don't want to do the layering bit?

Nikhil Kamath 1:18:46 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:18:47 Okay, fair. That's-

Diipa Khosla 1:18:48 That's fine.

Bhakti Modi 1:18:48 You don't-

Nikhil Kamath 1:18:49 Okay-

Bhakti Modi 1:18:49 You don't need to do the layering

Nikhil Kamath 1:18:49 ... first you are building for the mass premium or prestige category?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:18:52 I think three-tier price point.

Diipa Khosla 1:18:54 I think I would say pre- I would say that, mm, that entry premium-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:18:56 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 1:18:56 ... because there's a great segment.

Nikhil Kamath 1:18:58 What price am I selling it?

Diipa Khosla 1:18:59 Uh- Above 1,000.

Bhakti Modi 1:19:00 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:19:00 But below-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:19:01 1,000?

Diipa Khosla 1:19:01 But below 2,000.

Bhakti Modi 1:19:03 I think between-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:19:03 Nahi yaar, bahut ho raha hai

Diipa Khosla 1:19:04 Because there are so many-

Bhakti Modi 1:19:05 Because-

Diipa Khosla 1:19:05 Are bahut mass, so no.

Bhakti Modi 1:19:07 Yeah, I think there are- [laughing]

Diipa Khosla 1:19:07 There are too many players under 1,000.

Nikhil Kamath 1:19:09 I would say between the 1,000 to 2,000 space.

Diipa Khosla 1:19:11 Ah, 1,000 to 2,000 is okay.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:19:12 Nahi ban payega yaar. Kaisa, kitna bada... How big? Sorry, can I talk in Hindi?

Nikhil Kamath 1:19:16 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:19:16 How big do you want the business to be?

Nikhil Kamath 1:19:19 500 crores.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:19:20 That's it? That's the, that's the upper limit that you can do?

Bhakti Modi 1:19:23 Well, I think that can be... this can be much bigger with 1,000-

Nikhil Kamath 1:19:26 8, kaha se ayega?

Bhakti Modi 1:19:26 Zara is doing fragrances at, uh-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:19:30 Kitna bikta hai?

Bhakti Modi 1:19:30 ... uh, 1,000 rupees.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:19:30 Zara ka kitna bikta hai?

Bhakti Modi 1:19:30 I'm just saying, entry price point, that, that becomes entry price point, because anything under that is too mass.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:19:39 My view is-

Diipa Khosla 1:19:39 So today-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:19:39 ... you should be able to give value and aspiration both-

Bhakti Modi 1:19:41 100%

Shantanu Deshpande 1:19:41 ... because if you can do that, you're, you've nailed it.

Diipa Khosla 1:19:42 But, but today, when you are looking at a fragrance that is a Dior or a Chanel or even lower, right? Everyone wants to aspire there. So when you're talking about fragrance, you want to also make it a little bit more aspirational. So you can start small. So you can say, "Okay, I'll have a 50 ml at 1,000, and then maybe a, a 30 ml at 400- But guys-

Bhakti Modi 1:20:03 Or 500 rupees

Diipa Khosla 1:20:03 ... if you want to give them good quality perfume, if you look at a 599, 499, you want a 80% margin.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:20:09 No, I was thinking more 999.

Diipa Khosla 1:20:11 Okay, nine... That is 1,000. [chuckles]

Bhakti Modi 1:20:12 So that's 1,000.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:20:12 Yeah, but not 1,000 to 2,000.

Bhakti Modi 1:20:14 Theek hai.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:20:14 See, maybe 999 is a very nice price point.

Diipa Khosla 1:20:16 999.

Bhakti Modi 1:20:16 But even that 80% margin, then, like, the quality of ingredients you're going to have are not going to be as good as the quality of ingredients that a proper perfume would have.

Nikhil Kamath 1:20:25 And this is very true in a market like-

Bhakti Modi 1:20:28 Clean

Nikhil Kamath 1:20:28 ... beauty.

Bhakti Modi 1:20:28 I'm talking clean fragrance.

Nikhil Kamath 1:20:30 Um, no, just, just-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:20:31 That's the challenge, no?

Nikhil Kamath 1:20:31 ... going, going to this point of margin-

Bhakti Modi 1:20:33 That's the challenge

Nikhil Kamath 1:20:33 ... and everything, that-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:20:34 But as opposed to order of $300

Nikhil Kamath 1:20:35 ... the $200 product versus-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:20:37 No

Nikhil Kamath 1:20:37 ... the $20 product, there is a big difference.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:20:38 Kitna ka banega? 300, 360 din mein banega ya kya?

Nikhil Kamath 1:20:40 Yeah, significantly, because of the quality of ingredients.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:20:42 Banta hai yaar, 360 mein sab banaya jaata hai.

Nikhil Kamath 1:20:43 So this is one industry-

Diipa Khosla 1:20:44 But phthalates were your stamina

Nikhil Kamath 1:20:45 ... where like, you know, particularly in the efficacy of ingredients.

Diipa Khosla 1:20:48 But if he doesn't care about that? [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:20:50 So it doesn't mean that you won't get the same, you won't get the same results. But there is, there is a difference in selling... You're not selling the same thing at $20 and $200. The, the, the results can be the same because you're using different kinds of ingredients, but they're, in, in an industry like beauty, yes, there is markup, there is margin, but- I thought perfumes are like bottled water. There's no difference between $200 and $2.

Bhakti Modi 1:21:13 Huge difference. In just... If you would go to a nose-

Nikhil Kamath 1:21:17 Don't they operate at 90% margins?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:21:19 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:21:19 Yeah, they do.

Diipa Khosla 1:21:19 Yeah, they do.

Nikhil Kamath 1:21:20 So nobody's spending-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:21:21 [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:21:21 ... more than, like, 50 bucks in making the bottle.

Diipa Khosla 1:21:22 But do- but packaging makes a big difference, glass versus plastic.

Nikhil Kamath 1:21:26 Not packaging. I'm talking about quality of product.

Diipa Khosla 1:21:27 No, no, it does.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:21:27 I think, I think there is a huge difference.

Diipa Khosla 1:21:28 It does. Like, there's the weight of oil. If you use pure saffron oil versus if you use like a synthetic saffron oil-

Nikhil Kamath 1:21:33 How much-

Diipa Khosla 1:21:33 Huge difference

Nikhil Kamath 1:21:33 ... will it cost me to make a 100 ml perfume with pure, good, clean ingredients? Less than 1,000.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:21:40 Mere khayal se 500, 600 mein ban jayega achcha brand.

Diipa Khosla 1:21:42 Yeah, okay, none of us have a fragrance brand-

Bhakti Modi 1:21:44 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 1:21:44 ... so we can't really give you that much detail.

Bhakti Modi 1:21:46 Yeah, we won't go in... Yeah, we, and we-

Diipa Khosla 1:21:47 No

Bhakti Modi 1:21:47 ... won't be abs- like, accurate.

Diipa Khosla 1:21:48 Absolutely accurate about it, yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:21:50 We just launched a 999 fragrance.

Diipa Khosla 1:21:53 Oh, he does have, okay.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:21:55 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:21:55 [chuckles] You can give him details.

Nikhil Kamath 1:21:57 Is it selling?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:21:57 We just launched, like, a week back.

Nikhil Kamath 1:21:58 Mm.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:21:59 And-

Bhakti Modi 1:21:59 Today?

Diipa Khosla 1:21:59 Under which brand?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:22:01 Bombay Shaving Company.

Diipa Khosla 1:22:02 Okay.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:22:02 So it's called Toxic Fruit and Little Beach, by Bombay Shaving-

Bhakti Modi 1:22:05 You called your fragrance Toxic?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:22:07 Fruit.

Bhakti Modi 1:22:07 Oh, like the forbidden fruit.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:22:09 Yeah, and Little Beach. So it's kind of rebellious. It's like Bombay Shaving Company in a way, at 999, so it's a big price point for us.

Nikhil Kamath 1:22:15 Online, offline?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:22:16 Both.

Diipa Khosla 1:22:17 It's doing good?

Bhakti Modi 1:22:18 Omnichannel.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:22:19 Start is good. We are at 100 DRR now. So 100 din ka bik raha hai, it's good, so then people will buy.

Nikhil Kamath 1:22:25 Is that a non-negotiable,

Nikhil Kamath 1:22:26 omnichannel?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:22:27 Oh, yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:22:28 I think, yeah, today, omnichannel, if you want to grow at scale, omnichannel is the way to go, and-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:22:33 Mm-hmm

Bhakti Modi 1:22:33 ... that's where, like, multi-brand retailers like us come in, right? Because if you're talking about a D2C brand, yes, w- you can start your own website, but I already have captive audience, right? I already have the customers.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:22:45 I had an idea, actually. There's a whole-

Nikhil Kamath 1:22:47 For, for Dilip or for me?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:22:47 For, for Dilip.

Nikhil Kamath 1:22:48 Mm.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:22:49 You... We, we were thinking about community, and like, for example-

Bhakti Modi 1:22:51 Mm

Shantanu Deshpande 1:22:51 ... there's a huge opportunity to build out the frag head community of India.

Nikhil Kamath 1:22:56 Explain. I don't even know what that means.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:22:58 Frag heads are people who-

Diipa Khosla 1:22:58 Like sneakerheads.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:22:59 Like sneakerheads, but frag are the people who understand... So they're called noses. So if you're a nose-

Nikhil Kamath 1:23:03 Mm

Shantanu Deshpande 1:23:04 ... you can distinguish between multiple notes. And there is, like, in a group of five friends-

Nikhil Kamath 1:23:08 Mm

Shantanu Deshpande 1:23:08 ... the noses become like this status symbol that you are act- It's like a good wine taster in a group of people who like wine, for example.

Nikhil Kamath 1:23:15 Like, a sneakerhead is cool. A sommelier is cool. I don't know about frag head.

Bhakti Modi 1:23:19 So-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:23:19 Frag head

Bhakti Modi 1:23:20 ... build it up.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:23:21 Build it up.

Bhakti Modi 1:23:21 Make it cool.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:23:22 That, that, that becomes the common purpose for-

Bhakti Modi 1:23:23 Like how we made the Champi corn, like that.

Diipa Khosla 1:23:24 And that's a community.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:23:25 That's a com- Then it's a community.

Nikhil Kamath 1:23:26 Mm.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:23:26 Now you can also make insane content about this community. Like, you get frag heads into your, into your pod- or whatever, your Bangalore home.

Nikhil Kamath 1:23:33 I can, I can go around smelling celebrities and-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:23:35 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:23:35 ... making expressions.

Diipa Khosla 1:23:36 Have smelling events.

Bhakti Modi 1:23:38 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:23:38 Bring them together-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:23:39 Absolutely

Diipa Khosla 1:23:39 ... let them create their own signature perfume, like-

Bhakti Modi 1:23:42 And then you can have food associated with it.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:23:44 Absolutely.

Nikhil Kamath 1:23:44 Can I, can I tell you a very funny story? So I rented this place some time ago, and I've had a few house managers along the way. One of them, for three months of the year, smells like dead fish. One of them joined. I was not in town. I spent, like, a week, a month here. One of them joined and quit even before he could ever meet me, and he said, "This area smells so bad that he can't survive." [laughing]

Diipa Khosla 1:24:13 Wow!

Bhakti Modi 1:24:14 Wow.

Nikhil Kamath 1:24:14 So smell is a big-

Diipa Khosla 1:24:15 He had a very strong nose then, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:24:17 So smell is a problem, but good smell is not-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:24:22 Mm

Nikhil Kamath 1:24:23 ... equally proportional as a incentive to do a trigger, to be a trigger event.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:24:29 No, it is. In, in what way?

Nikhil Kamath 1:24:31 Like, I feel like I can sell fear around bad smell.

Speaker 1:24:35 ... much more than I can sell the incentive of good smell.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:24:38 No, no, no, no, no.

Diipa Khosla 1:24:39 No, no.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:24:39 I totally disagree with that.

Diipa Khosla 1:24:40 Because, uh-

Speaker 1:24:41 No?

Diipa Khosla 1:24:41 good-

Speaker 1:24:41 Absolutely not

Diipa Khosla 1:24:42 ... good smell triggers... Again, we spoke about emotion. It triggers that emotion in you. It triggers a memory. It triggers something. It, it takes you back to some, some moment in your life.

Speaker 1:24:53 But it also like makes-

Diipa Khosla 1:24:54 It triggers a memory

Speaker 1:24:55 ... the same way makeup, like, when women put it on, they feel almost like this more confident versions-

Diipa Khosla 1:25:01 Yeah

Speaker 1:25:01 ... of themselves. Perfume has the power to do that, too. Like, the second you smell a incredible perfume, like, I can feel suddenly more stronger in myself. Or, like, you can armor yourself with something, or you feel more sophisticated, or you feel more... It's like another, like, putting on clothes.

Diipa Khosla 1:25:17 Yeah, sensual as well.

Speaker 1:25:18 Yeah, it's like another part of your identity you can put on.

Diipa Khosla 1:25:21 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:25:21 Big time.

Speaker 1:25:21 And some people-

Diipa Khosla 1:25:22 Big time.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:25:23 ... "...". It's big time.

Speaker 1:25:23 Some people can have-

Diipa Khosla 1:25:24 Yeah

Speaker 1:25:24 ... the same fragrance for many years, like Old Spice.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:25:26 Yeah.

Speaker 1:25:26 My dad, like, forever, that was- I love Old Spice

Diipa Khosla 1:25:28 ... that generation. Um, and-

Speaker 1:25:31 I love everything that smells like the barber shop.

Diipa Khosla 1:25:32 Why doesn't Dilip make Old Spice in a new way?

Speaker 1:25:34 Right?

Diipa Khosla 1:25:35 Nostalgia plus a smell that everyone remembers.

Speaker 1:25:38 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:25:38 Yeah.

Speaker 1:25:38 Spicy old.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:25:39 Layer it up, right?

Speaker 1:25:40 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:25:40 I think it's a fantastic idea.

Speaker 1:25:41 Every- Old Spice and throw in a cool wa- uh, uh, cool water.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:25:44 Old Spice-

Diipa Khosla 1:25:44 Mixed with... Oh, wait for this. Whiskey smoke.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:25:46 Yeah, or Old Spice plus, like, Danish pastry or something.

Speaker 1:25:50 He's like, "Mm."

Shantanu Deshpande 1:25:51 It will be nice.

Speaker 1:25:53 That could work, Old Spice with a vegetable or like-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:25:55 No, I think bakery.

Diipa Khosla 1:25:57 I get so unsexy so quickly. [laughing]

Speaker 1:25:58 I think by the end of this, we're like never-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:26:01 No

Speaker 1:26:01 ... never, cabbage is a fragrance brand. [laughing]

Diipa Khosla 1:26:04 [laughing]

Speaker 1:26:05 Old Spice jalebis?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:26:06 Yeah. I, I think that'll do really well.

Diipa Khosla 1:26:09 You can make an entire-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:26:10 Old Spice and sweet is like a really nice one

Diipa Khosla 1:26:11 ... uh, a bath and body range as well with that.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:26:15 Mm.

Speaker 1:26:16 I think step one for you is to find a good nose-

Diipa Khosla 1:26:19 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:26:19 Yeah

Speaker 1:26:19 ... because cabbage and Old Spice- [laughing]

Diipa Khosla 1:26:20 And I don't think you can lead them to it.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:26:22 No, you can develop it, I think.

Speaker 1:26:23 No, I don't think he can hear the nose.

Diipa Khosla 1:26:24 He cannot develop it. [laughing]

Shantanu Deshpande 1:26:25 But his... Your bathroom here has some really nice fragrances, by the way.

Speaker 1:26:28 Yeah, yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:26:28 That doesn't mean he's a good nose.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:26:30 I'm, you, I'm assuming you're, you're kind of-

Diipa Khosla 1:26:31 You're totally unbiased

Shantanu Deshpande 1:26:32 ... had some say on, on what's there now. [laughing]

Speaker 1:26:34 I've had no say on anything in life, pretty much. But let's say Old Spice, what did we say with?

Diipa Khosla 1:26:41 Cabbage.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:26:41 Danish pastry, I think.

Speaker 1:26:44 [laughing] Old Spice-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:26:45 With, with, with bakery

Speaker 1:26:46 ... jalebis?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:26:46 With bakery or jalebi.

Speaker 1:26:47 Jalebis are not sexy.

Diipa Khosla 1:26:48 Basque cheesecake.

Speaker 1:26:50 Jalebis are sexy?

Diipa Khosla 1:26:51 Old Spice with leather?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:26:52 You'll be amazed, Nikhil, how much-

Diipa Khosla 1:26:53 Do you want to make it for men or women?

Speaker 1:26:55 Women.

Diipa Khosla 1:26:55 Women. Old Spice with then something gourmand. Yeah, vanilla.

Speaker 1:26:58 Yeah, vanilla.

Diipa Khosla 1:26:59 Vanilla.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:26:59 We'll have men for that. We'll have men for- men takers for that.

Speaker 1:27:02 Yeah. I like vanilla-smelling perfumes.

Diipa Khosla 1:27:04 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:27:04 I buy them all the time.

Diipa Khosla 1:27:06 Vanilla is one of the most popular scent profiles.

Speaker 1:27:09 Yeah. I don't know. I don't know if this is selling, but we'll come back to this, okay? The community

Speaker 1:27:15 offline helps, online also helps. Offline, I think, has a impact which is exponential in nature. I don't know why, with most communities, I've found that. When I bring a bunch of people together who see each other physically and touch each other, touch each other-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:27:30 Yeah

Speaker 1:27:30 ... I think it kind of-

Diipa Khosla 1:27:32 Sound like a cult. [laughing]

Shantanu Deshpande 1:27:34 Yeah. But if you, if you're, if you're-

Diipa Khosla 1:27:36 Yeah

Shantanu Deshpande 1:27:36 ... doing offline community events-

Speaker 1:27:37 More memorable

Shantanu Deshpande 1:27:37 ... like making content around it and distributing it on-

Speaker 1:27:40 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 1:27:40 Exactly

Shantanu Deshpande 1:27:40 ... the fragmented community is very important.

Diipa Khosla 1:27:41 There is a dual effect for that. Like-

Speaker 1:27:42 And I agree, patriotism is, is selling, and Trump has four years left, right? Three and a half.

Diipa Khosla 1:27:47 Three.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:27:48 [laughing]

Diipa Khosla 1:27:48 Three and a half.

Speaker 1:27:49 It'll sell more up until then.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:27:51 Is tariffs affecting you?

Diipa Khosla 1:27:54 Big time. US, you were asking one of your first questions was your share in business, right? Um, US used to be 60%.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:28:00 Uh-huh.

Diipa Khosla 1:28:01 And in the last year, thanks to people like Tira, our retail has grown 500% in India, and now India is 60%, and US is 40. So back then, US was 40, and India was, uh... US was 60, India was 40. Now it's flipped.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:28:17 This is another thing that India has done well.

Speaker 1:28:18 Where are you manufacturing?

Diipa Khosla 1:28:20 Um, I'm one of those really, um, product-obsessed people. We go wherever the best manufacturing is. It's not... My husband hates it 'cause he does the ops and finance part. [chuckles]

Speaker 1:28:29 You guys work together?

Diipa Khosla 1:28:31 We do.

Speaker 1:28:31 Wow!

Diipa Khosla 1:28:32 We're co-founders. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:28:33 So where do you manufacture?

Diipa Khosla 1:28:35 So we manufacture, um, like Champi is in India, obviously, but, like, our lip balms are in Korea 'cause I found the best lab there for it. Our eye cream is Japan. Again, Indian ingredients, but manufactured in Japan, um-

Speaker 1:28:47 The tariffs are hitting you, but not at 50%.

Diipa Khosla 1:28:49 Every corner, every side.

Speaker 1:28:51 This might be an opportunity in itself, make Indian products outside of India to beat ta- tariffs.

Diipa Khosla 1:28:55 Yeah. I'm-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:28:58 Sorry, make Indian product where?

Speaker 1:28:59 Outside of India.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:29:00 Why?

Diipa Khosla 1:29:00 Make Indian products outside of India.

Speaker 1:29:02 'Cause there is demand for Indian products, and you don't have to pay 50%.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:29:04 And sell them there.

Diipa Khosla 1:29:05 Mm.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:29:05 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:29:06 Yeah.

Speaker 1:29:06 For the American market.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:29:07 Or like-

Speaker 1:29:07 I'm not suggesting that. It's a bad idea.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:29:09 Lot of... No, no. Lot of Indian companies have now created US subsidiaries because of TikTok Shop.

Diipa Khosla 1:29:13 Yeah, yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:29:14 TikTok Shop is huge!

Diipa Khosla 1:29:16 Huge, huge.

Speaker 1:29:17 A lot of people, when I was researching this, told me that Instagram is content created by brands, and TikTok is more UGC.

Diipa Khosla 1:29:27 Yes, that's...

Speaker 1:29:28 I mean, there is a TikTokification happening of Instagram as well. Um-

Diipa Khosla 1:29:31 But I, I don't think-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:29:32 What is it called?

Diipa Khosla 1:29:32 I don't think it's managed-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:29:33 Perfume Tok

Diipa Khosla 1:29:33 ... to crack it.

Speaker 1:29:34 Perfume Tok, yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:29:35 Perfume Tok, yeah, Perfume Tok.

Diipa Khosla 1:29:36 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:29:36 Like TikTok-

Speaker 1:29:36 There's every Tok.

Diipa Khosla 1:29:37 Yeah.

Speaker 1:29:37 Like, in TikTok, there's every Tok: Skin Tok, Hair Tok-

Diipa Khosla 1:29:40 Brand Tok

Speaker 1:29:40 ... Hair Oiling Tok.

Diipa Khosla 1:29:41 Perfume Tok.

Speaker 1:29:41 This Tok, that Tok, every Tok. And TikTok is insane. I hope we get it to India soon. Um-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:29:47 "...".

Diipa Khosla 1:29:49 But I see, "...", China, India was shaking hands.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:29:51 Yeah, I was... I met a Unilever guy who heads China. So we hear all these numbers, no? I was blown away. I don't know if you guys know this. Douyin, which is TikTok, is 40% of retail. It has broken every marketing rule possible, for one reason, is because there's now so much content for consumers. They're doing four hours of research before they buy a face wash. So now this whole thing, "...,"

Speaker 1:30:17 [chuckles]

Shantanu Deshpande 1:30:18 ... It's gone out the window-

Diipa Khosla 1:30:18 Yeah

Shantanu Deshpande 1:30:18 -because I have to tell everything, "...".

Speaker 1:30:20 But you're still buying more than you would have bought if not for TikTok.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:30:22 Consumption goes up, but it becomes very noisy.

Diipa Khosla 1:30:25 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:30:25 Very noisy. So brands can't-

Speaker 1:30:26 But net, net good only, no? But the question then is, why doesn't TikTok create their white label products if they know what sells and they can influence it?

Diipa Khosla 1:30:35 'Cause that's not the game they're playing in.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:30:37 Like Amazon not making private label.

Diipa Khosla 1:30:38 Like, why would they?

Speaker 1:30:39 Eventually, the Chinese companies tend to do everything, right?

Diipa Khosla 1:30:42 ... I don't think, I don't think they need to. I think it's just-

Nikhil Kamath 1:30:44 Like Amazon does that.

Diipa Khosla 1:30:46 Now they have TikTok Shop-

Nikhil Kamath 1:30:47 In some categories

Diipa Khosla 1:30:47 ... where they keep a percentage of every sale, every brand does.

Speaker 1:30:50 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:30:50 So they're already making so much in, in ad, and ad sales on top of that, and shop sales, so, like, they have enough revenue streams.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:30:59 But making

Shantanu Deshpande 1:31:00 globally relevant fragrances would be a good idea for the lip. Coming back to [chuckles] coming back to-

Diipa Khosla 1:31:05 Only lip?

Nikhil Kamath 1:31:06 You might be the lip.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:31:08 I think building from India for the world is something that we have to start doing a lot more of-

Diipa Khosla 1:31:14 Yeah

Shantanu Deshpande 1:31:15 ... of what she does.

Speaker 1:31:15 Yeah, Inde Wild-

Diipa Khosla 1:31:16 What Inde Wild is doing.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:31:17 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:31:17 100%. I think the world's ready. Like, we've had, um, Korean skincare beauty obviously explode in the world, Japanese-

Speaker 1:31:25 Japanese

Diipa Khosla 1:31:25 ... skincare beauty. We've had fragrances from France. We've had skincare from France. Like, it's all happened.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:31:32 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:31:32 It's, it's time.

Speaker 1:31:33 It's time for India.

Diipa Khosla 1:31:33 It's time for India, and Inde Wild-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:31:36 And we've done, we've done-

Diipa Khosla 1:31:36 Doing that

Shantanu Deshpande 1:31:37 ... we've done, we've done, right? With Ayurveda and all, we've done a bunch of exporting.

Speaker 1:31:40 Yeah, but still the UK still, like, if you look at Kama Forest, they're only in the UK. Like, nobody's really-

Diipa Khosla 1:31:44 But I feel like that's a big-

Speaker 1:31:44 dominated the US

Diipa Khosla 1:31:45 ... step, right, from-

Speaker 1:31:47 For sure

Diipa Khosla 1:31:47 ... for a brand to go outside of India-

Speaker 1:31:50 For sure

Diipa Khosla 1:31:50 ... have this stunning presence-

Speaker 1:31:52 Absolutely

Diipa Khosla 1:31:52 ... and for people to kind of bench it on global-

Speaker 1:31:56 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 1:31:56 ... um, uh, you know, with global brands and, you know, take their names in the same breath. And I think we would have never imagined that, like, 10 years ago, and I think that just goes back to what you said-

Speaker 1:32:06 So the fact that-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:32:06 We've done it now

Diipa Khosla 1:32:07 ... patriotism, pride.

Speaker 1:32:08 But even 10 years ago, like, when I was growing up, I would never imagine Sephora, the Sephora, take an Indian brand like Inde Wild-

Diipa Khosla 1:32:16 Yeah

Speaker 1:32:16 ... and build a global partnership. Like-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:32:18 Yeah.

Speaker 1:32:18 I mean, Sephora America is like the, the World Cup of beauty.

Diipa Khosla 1:32:23 Yeah.

Speaker 1:32:23 Like, there's nothing bigger than Sephora North America. And for them to be like, "Inde Wild, we want you to come launch with us," is-

Diipa Khosla 1:32:29 Yeah.

Speaker 1:32:30 Yeah. And Ayurveda and, and Indian beauty, uh, for sure.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:32:33 We have celebrated-

Diipa Khosla 1:32:34 Ayurveda is huge, hugely, like, popular right now. You know, the, uh, supermarket store Erewhon, right, in LA?

Speaker 1:32:41 Yes, Erewhon.

Diipa Khosla 1:32:41 So this time I went there-

Speaker 1:32:42 You get $40 smoothies there, by the way. [laughing]

Diipa Khosla 1:32:44 Yeah. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:32:44 I like going there.

Diipa Khosla 1:32:45 It's so good.

Nikhil Kamath 1:32:46 Mm.

Diipa Khosla 1:32:47 But it's expensive, [chuckles] but it's good. But if you look at their shelves, everything, Shilajit, Shatavari, turmeric-

Nikhil Kamath 1:32:52 Mm

Diipa Khosla 1:32:52 ... Ashwagandha, like, there is a craze in at least the wellness, like, kind of-

Nikhil Kamath 1:32:58 Crazy, it's crazy

Diipa Khosla 1:32:58 ... longevity.

Nikhil Kamath 1:32:58 They have a lot of sea moss.

Diipa Khosla 1:33:00 Sea moss? Yeah, but that's not Indian. I'm focusing on the Indian one. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 1:33:02 That's the main thing in the store, right?

Speaker 1:33:04 But I think it's a way of life, right? And I think that, to your point, when we were talking about what, what we got from the West, right? I think now Indians are kind of understanding the, the long-standing traditions and heritage that India comes with. And kind of w- we've always had it. I think we're just now extremely proud of it, and I think Indian beauty is a way of life. Wellness is-

Diipa Khosla 1:33:27 Yeah

Speaker 1:33:28 ... you know, Indian wellness.

Diipa Khosla 1:33:28 I think wellness, like with Ayurveda-

Speaker 1:33:30 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 1:33:30 ... has really been, like, intricately woven into India for so long-

Speaker 1:33:34 Exactly

Diipa Khosla 1:33:34 ... that we ourselves didn't give it enough credit.

Speaker 1:33:36 Yes.

Diipa Khosla 1:33:36 Like, if you look at yoga, meditation, breathwork, mindfulness, we've all had it. You know, it took the West to be like-

Speaker 1:33:42 Exactly

Diipa Khosla 1:33:43 ... "Wow!"

Speaker 1:33:43 Wow. [chuckles]

Shantanu Deshpande 1:33:44 [chuckles]

Diipa Khosla 1:33:44 "Scientifically prove it." And now we're like, "Oh, my God, we should be nervous system reset-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:33:49 [chuckles]

Diipa Khosla 1:33:49 ... Kapalbhati," you know? Like, and now-

Nikhil Kamath 1:33:51 Do you think a high-end boutique hotel like Aman with Indian yoga, breathwork, turmeric, all of that will do well?

Speaker 1:34:00 It will...

Diipa Khosla 1:34:01 Like, insane.

Speaker 1:34:02 Insane.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:34:02 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:34:02 Insane.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:34:03 I think Kapil is doing that with Postcard in a way, no?

Diipa Khosla 1:34:06 Like, it's all about longevity.

Nikhil Kamath 1:34:07 But that's not India, in, inward looking. I'm talking outside of India.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:34:09 Outside of India.

Speaker 1:34:09 And outside it will work even better.

Diipa Khosla 1:34:11 Even better.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:34:12 Yeah. He has something in Bhutan. I think he's, he's going outside now. He wants to build the best hotel-

Diipa Khosla 1:34:15 The longevity.

Nikhil Kamath 1:34:16 But that's not so much around wellness. Postcard is more take a home, retain the aesthetic.

Diipa Khosla 1:34:20 Postcard is more... Yeah, exactly that.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:34:22 Clean.

Nikhil Kamath 1:34:23 There's no yoga-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:34:24 So a calm mind

Nikhil Kamath 1:34:24 ... there's no breathwork, there's no wellness. It's not pivoted on wellness.

Diipa Khosla 1:34:30 I think the searches in the pandemic for like, ingredients, like ghee, like all the fitness bros now cook in ghee, you know?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:34:37 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:34:37 'Cause like, like the smoke point's really high, and it's super healthy. Our dadi was like-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:34:42 Mm

Diipa Khosla 1:34:42 ... "Cook in ghee-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:34:43 Busy, yeah

Diipa Khosla 1:34:43 ... it's the best," and we never believed her. But now, indeed, they're all getting scientifically backed, and, and it's growing a lot.

Nikhil Kamath 1:34:50 What about influence?

Nikhil Kamath 1:34:52 I'm starting a brand. I have figured out maybe how to make a deal with salons, if it's in hair. I figured out a old product I can bring back and sell nostalgia. I have added the Indian narrative to it, patriotism. I found a emotion. I've doubled down on the emotion. I talk to the people who follow me, the few people. I listen, and I speak to them on- often. And I've figured out that I have one hero product that I'm starting with. That product is, let's say, a moisturizer, okay? For the lack of a better word. Omnichannel, I'm on Tira, I'm in some physical stores, I'm selling online, all of that. Now, I have come to a point where I've realized that all of this is only taking it so far, and I need to figure out my influencing and marketing piece. How do I do that?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:35:48 Are you sure the product works?

Nikhil Kamath 1:35:51 The 100-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:35:52 The hero product question, like for you.

Nikhil Kamath 1:35:53 The 100 people I'm speaking to right now are buying it.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:35:56 So repeat rates are 70, 80%?

Nikhil Kamath 1:35:58 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:35:59 Then, then I th- my view is, my, my view has always been like that influencer... The best influencers are your current customers, and the best-

Nikhil Kamath 1:36:08 Not celebrities who I can-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:36:10 Not, not, not early on, no. My view is just take the product and start sending it to celebrities, and see who starts liking it.

Nikhil Kamath 1:36:16 Can I do that?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:36:17 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:36:17 Just send it to them, and they'll post it?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:36:18 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:36:20 Has a celebrity posted for you just by sending it to them?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:36:23 Oh, plenty of times. Yeah, plenty of times.

Diipa Khosla 1:36:23 Oh, that's lovely.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:36:24 Who? Man, m- multiple. So we s- sent it to Ranvijay, we sent it to Ashwin, we sent it to...

Diipa Khosla 1:36:31 Who's Ashwin?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:36:32 The cri... off-spinner. The Indian cricketer.

Nikhil Kamath 1:36:34 If she's asking who, there's a problem with the celebrity. [laughing]

Shantanu Deshpande 1:36:38 [laughing]

Speaker 1:36:38 [laughing]

Shantanu Deshpande 1:36:38 He's a cricketer, so-

Diipa Khosla 1:36:39 Just a different, different demographic.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:36:41 Legend cricketer.

Nikhil Kamath 1:36:41 Mm.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:36:42 Uh...... when we launched the head shaver, we had sent it to Raghu and Rajiv. Uh-

Nikhil Kamath 1:36:48 They posted?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:36:49 Uh-huh. Raghu, Rajiv, in fact-

Bhakti Modi 1:36:51 Just on Twitter.

Diipa Khosla 1:36:51 They're legends.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:36:52 Yeah, a handwritten note from the founder.

Diipa Khosla 1:36:54 Wow!

Shantanu Deshpande 1:36:55 Handwritten note from the founder, someone from the team getting in touch-

Diipa Khosla 1:36:58 That's great

Shantanu Deshpande 1:36:58 ... for the address. Just like, you'd have to make the effort to make the person feel special.

Diipa Khosla 1:37:01 Perhaps it was less, um, cluttered then? Were you the first one-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:37:05 Head shaver, "..."... ," uh, with Ashwin, it was fr- uh, with, uh, trimmers.

Diipa Khosla 1:37:10 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:37:10 Uh, with Ranvijay also it was trimmers.

Diipa Khosla 1:37:11 When did you start the brand?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:37:13 2016.

Diipa Khosla 1:37:14 Okay, so it was a less cluttered market, no?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:37:16 Which one, trimmers?

Diipa Khosla 1:37:17 In, like, men grooming, skincare in general.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:37:20 Uh, it was a smaller market, but it was getting cluttered quickly. There were, like, some legacy, similar legacy players like-

Nikhil Kamath 1:37:25 Tell me some conversion rates. How many celebrities did you send it to, and how many posted? What was the cost of that exercise?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:37:32 Uh, till date, we've probably sent 10 to 12,000 free samplers to micro-influencers, macro influencers, creators, and then cricketers, actors, television, et cetera. We've probably had 500 organic. 500 organic, yeah, 5%.

Nikhil Kamath 1:37:52 Is it more the product or your letter that is getting the trigger?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:37:55 It's a combination. I think as I have also built a person- public profile, people also know that, okay, this can be, like, a give and take thing, and then it... The, it conversion has gone up as a brand also.

Nikhil Kamath 1:38:06 So they post, and you repost, and that gives, gets them distribution.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:38:09 Post, repost, comment, like.

Nikhil Kamath 1:38:10 But I don't have that as a new person.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:38:12 Yeah, so we-

Nikhil Kamath 1:38:12 I don't see any celebrity-

Diipa Khosla 1:38:13 That's why I'm keeping quiet, 'cause I love influencer marketing and topic.

Bhakti Modi 1:38:18 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:38:18 Like, we do it very well.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:38:19 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:38:19 But indeed, if you're telling me the person is starting with no following-

Nikhil Kamath 1:38:24 Mm-hmm. Mm.

Diipa Khosla 1:38:25 ... it, it is a harder game. Indeed, a lot of people, like, our... We send about per launch, say, 500 to 600 influencer boxes for any launch. 50% post us.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:38:37 Yeah?

Diipa Khosla 1:38:38 50%, because they're like, "Deepa will repost. Deepa will look at it," or, um, or I think that's a aspect, and second aspect I think is Inde Wild is such a, like, loved brand that they look forward to the PR box. 'Cause every time a PR box is an experience, it's like-

Nikhil Kamath 1:38:53 Mm.

Diipa Khosla 1:38:53 And so for a young girl to get a-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:38:55 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 1:38:55 ... amazing box where you open it and it looks super pretty, and the product is there, like, they want to show the content to their following as well.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:39:03 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:39:03 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:39:03 So it becomes like a, a content piece for them altogether. So we have a really high, um, organic, like, love and, and kind of push for, um, packages and gifting, but if I didn't have a following, I don't know. It's a hard one. I would say, indeed, you start with micros then. Start with nanos and micros, who even if they have 2,000 or 5,000 followers, you start with them and start building them into a community, that the word [chuckles] that we keep saying. Um, and then start from there, and then start leveling up slowly. Um-

Bhakti Modi 1:39:38 And that's why I think that shared purpose or value comes, right?

Diipa Khosla 1:39:41 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:39:41 That you find those creators who align with your brand.

Diipa Khosla 1:39:44 The key ones, yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:39:44 Even-

Diipa Khosla 1:39:44 Who are the frag heads or-

Bhakti Modi 1:39:46 Well, they grow with you, because I think that's the beaut- beauty of it. Like, you, you have maybe, uh, if you don't have that much money, right, you will have about 20 of them versus... And I, I truly believe that the nanos and the micros get you a lot more traction, organic reach-

Diipa Khosla 1:40:02 And conversion

Bhakti Modi 1:40:03 ... and conversion-

Diipa Khosla 1:40:03 Yeah

Bhakti Modi 1:40:03 ... versus, uh, you know, using mega influencers. You use mega influencers for the awareness, but-

Diipa Khosla 1:40:10 And the problem with mega is they're very used to getting paid.

Bhakti Modi 1:40:12 Exactly.

Diipa Khosla 1:40:13 So because they're so used to getting paid, and they get 1,000 packages a month from all the different brands in the world, for an unknown small brand, they're less likely to open it, so it goes to waste.

Bhakti Modi 1:40:23 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:40:23 They charge a lot.

Diipa Khosla 1:40:24 And they charge a lot.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:40:25 They do, yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:40:25 It's all brand colla- paid brand collaboration.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:40:28 Now, the Meta... So by the way, Meta, Instagram is now bigger than WhatsApp in India on daily active. It's a crazy number.

Bhakti Modi 1:40:35 Wow.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:40:35 Do you guys know this?

Diipa Khosla 1:40:36 No.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:40:36 Instagram, like two weeks back, has gone ahead of WhatsApp on daily actives.

Diipa Khosla 1:40:40 Wow.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:40:40 And creator partnerships are becoming big. The thing with micro-influencers is that, A, they'll do it for you, even if you're a small brand, with two expectations: one, that I might become a brand ambassador, I could get an influencer deal if I do a good piece of content to start with.

Diipa Khosla 1:40:55 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:40:55 Two, is my friends will think that I'm now getting paid for content.

Bhakti Modi 1:40:59 Mm.

Diipa Khosla 1:40:59 Mm.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:40:59 You start signaling-

Bhakti Modi 1:41:00 That's-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:41:00 ... that you're an influencer also.

Bhakti Modi 1:41:02 That's what I said, like indeed, they feel like they can use this for content.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:41:05 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:41:06 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:41:06 Like, it becomes like, "Oh, brands work with me now."

Shantanu Deshpande 1:41:08 [chuckles] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:41:09 So if I'm trying to build influence or marketing, I should definitely send it to celebrities, bottom up, start with micro. With the gift box should have a heartfelt handwritten letter, and I need to repost if they share.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:41:25 Yes.

Diipa Khosla 1:41:25 And if it can be unique, cherry on top.

Bhakti Modi 1:41:28 Yeah, personalized.

Diipa Khosla 1:41:28 Like, not like every other box that they're getting, but think of something outside the box. Can you give it to them in a, in a, I don't know, a tin box? Can you give it to them in a... with fresh flowers? Like, is there something unique-

Bhakti Modi 1:41:40 Some... I was going to say that if you have some element of storytelling-

Diipa Khosla 1:41:43 Yeah-

Bhakti Modi 1:41:44 ... I think that-

Diipa Khosla 1:41:44 Or surprise and delight, yeah

Bhakti Modi 1:41:45 ... that goes far enough, and then you create that unboxing moment.

Diipa Khosla 1:41:49 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:41:49 So again, you're telling the consumers about the brand in that moment, right?

Diipa Khosla 1:41:53 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:41:53 So again, we were talking about that, how, how do brand- how do consumers interact for the first time? Through influencers in that moment.

Diipa Khosla 1:42:01 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:42:01 So you kind of think of that entire piece together. Oh, they're unboxing the brand. They're seeing the brand for the first time. So that kind of is as much for the consumer as for the creator.

Diipa Khosla 1:42:12 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:42:13 So you think of it that way as well.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:42:15 I also think sampling distribution is a huge opportunity which we don't-

Bhakti Modi 1:42:18 Yes

Shantanu Deshpande 1:42:18 ... do well enough on.

Nikhil Kamath 1:42:19 Explain.

Diipa Khosla 1:42:19 100%.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:42:19 Like, for example, uh, like my favorite example of-

Diipa Khosla 1:42:22 Mm

Shantanu Deshpande 1:42:22 ... sampling distribution is Uncle Chips.

Bhakti Modi 1:42:24 Mm.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:42:24 Uncle Chips distributors would go with, like, big malas of Uncle Chips around their neck and go into a village, and the kids would like-

Diipa Khosla 1:42:30 Did they?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:42:30 Yeah, kids would just come-

Diipa Khosla 1:42:32 Wow

Shantanu Deshpande 1:42:32 ... and he would feed a chip here, feed, feed a chip there. Suddenly, kids are buying, moms are there, so-

Diipa Khosla 1:42:35 That is full guerrilla marketing.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:42:37 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:42:37 I love it.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:42:37 So with, with fragrances, like going into a college fest, for example, with like a whole suitcase of your perfumeric innovations-

Diipa Khosla 1:42:45 Mm

Shantanu Deshpande 1:42:45 ... yourself smelling really great, would be great for them.

Nikhil Kamath 1:42:47 What is, what is the word you used for this? Sampling?

Bhakti Modi 1:42:49 Sampling.

Diipa Khosla 1:42:50 Sampling.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:42:50 Yeah, sampling, like-

Bhakti Modi 1:42:52 ... you basically get a sachet of something or a trial, not even a trial pack. It's, it's, it's a small sampling, sample that you can use for maybe two or three washes, or two or three, uh, moisturizing-

Diipa Khosla 1:43:03 You can also do it really well-

Bhakti Modi 1:43:05 - sessions

Diipa Khosla 1:43:06 ... with a Tira, where you say, "Hey, Tira, I'm gonna give you 100,000 samples."

Bhakti Modi 1:43:10 Samples.

Diipa Khosla 1:43:10 "Put it in every order, every time somebody buys."

Shantanu Deshpande 1:43:12 But that doesn't work, though. I've not- that never worked for me.

Diipa Khosla 1:43:13 You don't think so?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:43:14 It's not... Blink- Tira, I don't know, but Blinkit not work.

Bhakti Modi 1:43:16 You did Blinkit?

Diipa Khosla 1:43:16 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:43:16 But the thing is-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:43:17 Amazon

Bhakti Modi 1:43:17 ... I think it really depends on who the customer is- The customer ... who you are sending it to.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:43:21 We tried a lot. We tried a lot, whether it is correlated or not, whether it is going to the KitKat buyer or not. We tried everything. The never- repeats are just not there, yaar.

Bhakti Modi 1:43:28 I, I, I think it works-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:43:29 So-

Bhakti Modi 1:43:29 ... if you do it correctly. It's great-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:43:31 We did a bad job

Bhakti Modi 1:43:31 ... for even upselling, right? So if um, if you want to convert a mass brand into a... You want to convert a consumer who's shopping in mass for haircare to masstige, then you will send them that masstige sample, and I will upsell them, you know. Exactly. They'll be like, "Oh, I like this".

Diipa Khosla 1:43:44 Especially if the product has been getting a lot of buzz in social-

Bhakti Modi 1:43:46 Exactly

Diipa Khosla 1:43:47 ... and people are hesitant to buying it because, say, price or whatever, and then they get that sample, they're so happy.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:43:53 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:43:53 Especially if it's a-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:43:54 It's a good product

Diipa Khosla 1:43:54 ... deluxe sample, and they get to try it once in their hair, or like try it on their face two, three times, and they're like: "Oh, I've been dying. Now I got this, now I'm gonna buy full size."

Bhakti Modi 1:44:02 And, and that's where minis come in. In, in beauty-

Diipa Khosla 1:44:05 Minis

Bhakti Modi 1:44:05 ... the mini and travel size is just... It's a whole business on its own. And in fact, this, a Bobbi Brown area manager told me this, that, uh, India is a mini capital of the world.

Diipa Khosla 1:44:17 Mm.

Bhakti Modi 1:44:17 Like, global brands have produced their best sellers, particularly for India, because they know that India is a value market. Value, I don't mean that pe- we move from price consciousness to, to saying that I, "I will pay for the product if I find value in it." So to cross that barrier, they're like: "Okay, we'll give you a mini. You still pay for it after having sampled it." You... There is that, you know, that bridge. "So you buy a mini of our best-selling product. If you like it, then you will buy the full size." So they've built that bridge particularly to get you from a masstige to a premium brand, and you may not even move into the full size.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:44:52 And do you sell the mini, or do you just give it away?

Bhakti Modi 1:44:53 You sell the mini.

Diipa Khosla 1:44:54 You sell it, you sell it. So like-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:44:55 This is a great survival

Diipa Khosla 1:44:56 ... Estee Lauder-

Bhakti Modi 1:44:56 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 1:44:57 ... Estee Lauder specifically did the-

Bhakti Modi 1:44:58 With MAC

Diipa Khosla 1:44:59 ... phenomenal mini job-

Bhakti Modi 1:45:00 Yes

Diipa Khosla 1:45:00 ... with MAC.

Bhakti Modi 1:45:01 MAC.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:45:01 And it got-

Diipa Khosla 1:45:02 For India specifically, they made their lipsticks, lipstick in a mini form. It was like a tiny-

Bhakti Modi 1:45:06 Tiny

Diipa Khosla 1:45:07 ... lipstick. Killed it.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:45:09 Because they were wardrobe it, no?

Bhakti Modi 1:45:09 And their best-selling shades, not the-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:45:12 Yeah

Bhakti Modi 1:45:12 ... you know, not the ones that don't, don't sell-

Diipa Khosla 1:45:14 Mm

Bhakti Modi 1:45:14 ... too much.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:45:14 And because the-

Diipa Khosla 1:45:14 Same with the Moisture Surge minis.

Bhakti Modi 1:45:16 Exactly, minis.

Diipa Khosla 1:45:17 Everything is like, "Oh, I want luxury, but give it to me at an affordable price-

Bhakti Modi 1:45:21 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 1:45:21 ... so I can try it, and then I'll buy the full thing."

Bhakti Modi 1:45:23 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:45:24 Yeah, but it's, it's the whole wardrobing thing, right? If I want to keep 30, I don't want 30 100 ml or whatever.

Bhakti Modi 1:45:28 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:45:28 I'm going to have 30 total-

Diipa Khosla 1:45:29 Are you talking fragrance or skincare?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:45:30 Both, I think.

Diipa Khosla 1:45:31 Skincare, people wouldn't wardrobe, no?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:45:33 With, with color, for example?

Diipa Khosla 1:45:35 Yeah, makeup.

Bhakti Modi 1:45:35 Yeah, yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:45:35 Makeup?

Bhakti Modi 1:45:35 Yeah, yeah, makeup, yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:45:36 You want brown one day-

Bhakti Modi 1:45:37 But for example, a mascara runs out. If you open it, in six months, you, you have to finish it, or else you should not be using it.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:45:43 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:45:43 So I only buy mini mascaras, 'cause I'm like: "Okay, great, I only use that much- Mm ... so I will only buy a mini mascara."

Shantanu Deshpande 1:45:50 Is that true for perfume? You shouldn't use it after six months?

Bhakti Modi 1:45:53 No.

Diipa Khosla 1:45:53 There is expiry dates on perfume.

Bhakti Modi 1:45:55 Expiration, but it... Yeah, for perfumes.

Diipa Khosla 1:45:57 It can go off.

Bhakti Modi 1:45:57 For mascaras, it just clumps after. [laughing]

Diipa Khosla 1:45:59 Yeah, mascaras for sure.

Bhakti Modi 1:46:00 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:46:00 I think supermarkets do this right. Well, I feel like the sampling works better in person. When you give somebody something in person, at maybe a Tira store or a supermarket-

Bhakti Modi 1:46:10 Yeah, so we have a vending machine that when you enter, even if you don't walk out with anything that you purchased, you walk out with a sample, 'cause, you know, we've made it... We've gamified it. You, you know, you put in your, uh, number and, uh, you know, you, uh, your email address, and you select which, uh, which sample you want for that. You know, you'll have fragrance sample, a skincare sample, uh, and a makeup sample, and you select which one you want. And we let you take one sample in two months. So if you... Every two months when you come to our store, you get something to take back.

Diipa Khosla 1:46:40 Mm.

Bhakti Modi 1:46:40 And we work with brands to really, you know, utilize this to, again, for sampling. So again, you've gamified it, you've created a moment, and offline is all about experiences, so you've created that experience.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:46:51 The two greatest sampling successes from a brand standpoint was Lifebuoy at Kumbh Mela in COVID, 2020 or 2021-

Diipa Khosla 1:46:59 Wow, yeah

Shantanu Deshpande 1:47:00 ... where they gave Lifebuoy to everyone who was eating roti. So they use, "Before you eat, use Lifebuoy." The second one was Paperboat and IndiGo Airlines. Paperboat was built as a brand, again, nostalgic taste, by distributing as samples on IndiGo Airlines, and then it became something a part of the menu, and then- This nostalgia keeps coming back, the more I think about it. Paperboat was about nostalgic flavors. I think you might be bang on with your Champi. Yeah. Especially with Gen Z. Is that what it's called, Champi?

Diipa Khosla 1:47:26 Champi hair oil, yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:47:27 Mm.

Diipa Khosla 1:47:28 Even the name, I had to fight in my team. They were like: "No, but, like, don't call it that. We all have a bad connotation with it." I'm like: "No, it's gonna work, because it's, it's a ritual." You're literally putting the name of what we all know, it's a household name, on a bottle. It's gonna work. Uh-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:47:44 Could a brand of just minis work? Yes. I think in, in the category you're... In fragrances-

Diipa Khosla 1:47:50 Yeah

Shantanu Deshpande 1:47:50 ... yes, I think so.

Diipa Khosla 1:47:50 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:47:51 Yeah?

Diipa Khosla 1:47:52 Fragrances, for sure, yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:47:53 But it's also expensive to make minis.

Diipa Khosla 1:47:56 Yeah, that's true.

Bhakti Modi 1:47:57 It's-

Diipa Khosla 1:47:57 The margins are not as good.

Bhakti Modi 1:47:58 Yeah, the margins are not great in minis, 'cause-

Diipa Khosla 1:48:01 True

Bhakti Modi 1:48:01 ... you have to make that much product, and your packaging still costs-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:48:04 Costs money

Bhakti Modi 1:48:05 ... the same, so.

Diipa Khosla 1:48:06 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:48:06 I'm

Shantanu Deshpande 1:48:07 act- I actually want- was gonna ask you-

Bhakti Modi 1:48:08 And that's just from the limited knowledge that I have, that, you know, it's, uh, brands don't like minis as much as consumers do.

Diipa Khosla 1:48:14 Correct. That's true.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:48:15 I was actually gonna ask you whether sustainability is something Billup cares about a lot, because that's another Gen Z trend.

Diipa Khosla 1:48:20 Yes.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:48:20 I don't think that's a trend right now. It was a trend yesterday.

Diipa Khosla 1:48:23 No, it's a, it's a bare minimum.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:48:25 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:48:25 I think you have to care about it.

Bhakti Modi 1:48:27 But I, I-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:48:27 Yeah

Bhakti Modi 1:48:27 ... don't, I don't know. I... Do you think that-

Diipa Khosla 1:48:29 I think, again, maybe-

Bhakti Modi 1:48:30 Do you think sustainability is also-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:48:31 Do you think something sells more because you-

Bhakti Modi 1:48:31 ... a little bit of affluence?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:48:33 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:48:34 Does something sell more because sustainable? Maybe in India, not as much yet, but I think, again, the Gen Z value is starting to become more important. And for me, as a founder, I don't want to clutter the market more. Like, if you look at even just sustainable in every measure, they say. You know, our packaging is mostly glass, so it can be recycled better.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:48:52 Mm.

Diipa Khosla 1:48:53 We have six SKUs in three and a half years.... we're not in the business of building 200 SKUs, 300 SKUs, clutter the market. Like, we really are like hero product strategy only.

Nikhil Kamath 1:49:03 Mm-hmm.

Diipa Khosla 1:49:03 Talk to the consumers, what do they want? Build it for them, and then really put all your marketing might in six SKUs instead of, "Which one am I picking here?" Like, uh, am I playing... You know, you're gambling then. So I think sustainability for me as a founder is very important because you're-

Nikhil Kamath 1:49:18 Do you put it on every product?

Diipa Khosla 1:49:20 That we're sustainable? No, because it's a given. Like, I don't, I don't need to scream about it.

Nikhil Kamath 1:49:24 I agree with that. That's why I don't think putting sustainability will sell more.

Diipa Khosla 1:49:28 No.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:49:28 No, so I'll tell you where I'm coming from. The reason is, I think today's Gen Z, whether it comes to food or personal care, actually cares about the product inside the bottle-

Diipa Khosla 1:49:35 Yeah

Shantanu Deshpande 1:49:35 ... not the bottle so much.

Nikhil Kamath 1:49:36 Mm.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:49:37 They're way too smart for that. And if you make that a point of your communication, you don't need to spend 30% of your cogs on a glass bottle that looks great. You can get away with a, a product that is much cheaper.

Nikhil Kamath 1:49:49 It could be an idea for Dilip.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:49:50 Yeah. And then you actually focus all the money on the product inside.

Nikhil Kamath 1:49:54 It can be a plain black bottle-

Diipa Khosla 1:49:56 Absolutely

Nikhil Kamath 1:49:56 ... and my marketing can be not about the bottle.

Diipa Khosla 1:49:58 Yeah, like-

Nikhil Kamath 1:49:59 For Dilip?

Diipa Khosla 1:49:59 The Ordinary is all about that. That literally... You know, have you seen those Ordinary billboards all over the place, where they're like, "Our marketing-

Nikhil Kamath 1:50:06 Ordinary eggs.

Diipa Khosla 1:50:06 "Yeah, people told us we should hire celebrities, but we put all our marketing money into building the best product ever."

Shantanu Deshpande 1:50:13 Oh, yeah. [laughs]

Diipa Khosla 1:50:13 "They said-

Nikhil Kamath 1:50:13 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 1:50:13 ... make better packaging, but we put all the money into the formulations."

Nikhil Kamath 1:50:16 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:50:17 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:50:18 Not about the bottle is a good line. Do you think?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:50:21 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:50:21 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:50:22 Yeah?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:50:23 Yeah, because fragrance is always-

Nikhil Kamath 1:50:24 Dilip is starting to feel better, slowly. [laughs]

Diipa Khosla 1:50:26 Maybe not.

Nikhil Kamath 1:50:27 But for sustainability, I think the thought leaders of the world today-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:50:33 Mm

Nikhil Kamath 1:50:34 ... are moving away from sustainability, and hence I think it'll trickle down, permeate down to the consumer as well. If you hear a Trump talk about bringing plastic straws back-

Diipa Khosla 1:50:45 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:50:46 ... "Drill, baby, drill." I was doing a inter-

Diipa Khosla 1:50:49 You mean, you're saying it's going-

Nikhil Kamath 1:50:51 Regressing

Diipa Khosla 1:50:51 ... backwards?

Nikhil Kamath 1:50:52 Yeah, we're regressing.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:50:52 I don't think so.

Nikhil Kamath 1:50:52 Yeah, the normality around sustainability is gone, I think.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:50:54 In time-

Nikhil Kamath 1:50:55 It, it was really big two years ago, though, in my opinion.

Diipa Khosla 1:50:59 Hmm.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:51:00 Maybe, "... "

Diipa Khosla 1:51:01 I don't think so.

Nikhil Kamath 1:51:02 You don't think so?

Diipa Khosla 1:51:03 I think the young consumers care.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:51:04 Big, big push. Yeah. India, for sure. Globally, I don't know. India, for sure, young consumers. Urban, young, affluent consumers will care.

Diipa Khosla 1:51:11 Yeah, they care.

Nikhil Kamath 1:51:12 Uh, no.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:51:13 It'll be a differentiator. All the central paris-

Nikhil Kamath 1:51:15 I, I think if it were, Deepa would have sustainable on her packaging.

Diipa Khosla 1:51:19 No, because they know what a conscious brand I'm building. Like, when I speak to... The content I make is about we are sustainable, we are vegan, but we're not screaming about it because that's a no-brainer for us, you know, being vegan, being this-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:51:32 That's like table stakes

Diipa Khosla 1:51:32 ... cruelty-free. Table stakes-

Nikhil Kamath 1:51:34 But it's also-

Diipa Khosla 1:51:35 This is how we stand out

Nikhil Kamath 1:51:35 ... I feel like sus- the word sustainability has been used around-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:51:40 Yeah, a lot

Nikhil Kamath 1:51:40 ... in very many ways, and people also have some amount of, uh, um-

Diipa Khosla 1:51:44 Exactly what-

Nikhil Kamath 1:51:45 ... doubt around it-

Diipa Khosla 1:51:46 Mm

Nikhil Kamath 1:51:46 ... that what is actually sustainable?

Diipa Khosla 1:51:48 Bit vague. That's true.

Nikhil Kamath 1:51:48 So I think brands also do stay away from, for the fear of getting called out, because anything you say today that's sustainable, you will still get called out for it, right?

Diipa Khosla 1:51:57 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 1:51:57 So I think there's a little bit of fear as well on what the consumer really believes you stand for. So I think it's kind of not being able to distill those sustainable values, what sustainability in beauty really stands for. Like right now, it's... W- if we talk about sustainability, technically, it's less consumption, right? But now there's refillable, so that's a step in the right direction. But is it 100% sustainable? No. But you're still kind of... Again, it's all about creating that lifestyle. So I think it's, it's still about the lifestyle, you know, 'cause-

Diipa Khosla 1:52:29 And I think being honest about that.

Nikhil Kamath 1:52:30 Yeah!

Diipa Khosla 1:52:30 I think also with founders who are a little sustainable, nobody can be all the way sustainable-

Nikhil Kamath 1:52:36 Yeah

Diipa Khosla 1:52:36 ... because then you don't have a brand. If you're gonna be, like, be honest about these are the areas we're working on our sustainability, these are areas that we cannot yet-

Nikhil Kamath 1:52:44 Yes

Diipa Khosla 1:52:44 ... until we get scale-

Nikhil Kamath 1:52:45 Scale

Diipa Khosla 1:52:45 ... or until we can. You know, the refillable program-

Nikhil Kamath 1:52:48 Oh, there's a way to do it.

Diipa Khosla 1:52:49 Exactly.

Nikhil Kamath 1:52:49 And sometimes there's no way out.

Diipa Khosla 1:52:51 Just be honest.

Nikhil Kamath 1:52:51 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:52:51 I think that's the main thing.

Nikhil Kamath 1:52:53 Because you

Nikhil Kamath 1:52:54 said honest so many times. Like, I am as far removed an expert in this industry as anyone can be, but looking from afar, it feels like the sustainable, organic, natural movement happened when... Was it Jessica Alba started the Honest Company, which was six, seven years ago?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:53:19 Long back. 10 years back.

Nikhil Kamath 1:53:20 10 years ago?

Diipa Khosla 1:53:20 I would say so, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:53:22 I feel like the-

Diipa Khosla 1:53:22 Goop, Gwyneth Paltrow.

Nikhil Kamath 1:53:24 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:53:24 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:53:24 Goop.

Diipa Khosla 1:53:25 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:53:25 I feel like the wave after that was the wave of actives.

Diipa Khosla 1:53:29 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:53:29 Yes.

Nikhil Kamath 1:53:30 Which was maybe a couple of years ago.

Diipa Khosla 1:53:32 Mm-hmm.

Nikhil Kamath 1:53:33 And most companies that I looked at, which did really well, were companies that caught on to a change in cycle before the cycle changed.

Diipa Khosla 1:53:42 Mm-hmm.

Nikhil Kamath 1:53:43 I think Minimalist-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:53:43 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:53:43 ... was exactly in that spot.

Diipa Khosla 1:53:45 Mm-hmm.

Nikhil Kamath 1:53:46 So my question to you guys is, if the active cycles is midway-

Diipa Khosla 1:53:52 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 1:53:52 ... what comes next, and what can I build to catch on to the next cycle-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:53:56 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:53:56 ... before the others come?

Shantanu Deshpande 1:53:57 I think, yeah, I, I don't think it's about sustainability. I think it's... I think the Gen, Gen Z, younger consumers are actually, what we are now starting to realize, are skinimalists. Just give me what I need, don't give me extra.

Nikhil Kamath 1:54:07 What is this now?

Diipa Khosla 1:54:08 Skin minimalism.

Nikhil Kamath 1:54:09 Skin minimalism.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:54:09 Skin minimalism.

Diipa Khosla 1:54:11 Skin minimalism.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:54:11 So just, like, minimalism is a classic example. Just give me these three molecules. I don't need the jazz around it.

Diipa Khosla 1:54:16 I don't need a 10-step skincare routine.

Nikhil Kamath 1:54:17 So if that is what they're thinking, why should I have three molecules? Why can't I have the combination of three in a way which is effective?

Diipa Khosla 1:54:24 That's what we do.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:54:24 Yeah, that, that was three molecules.

Diipa Khosla 1:54:25 So, like, the whole six SKU thing I was talking about earlier, our whole play was we're not gonna be a minimalist, we're not gonna be a Plum or a Mamaearth. We're not gonna do the whole thing.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:54:35 Assortment, yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:54:36 We're gonna do one serum with 12 serums in it, with a, an expert who does it for you.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:54:42 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:54:42 We're gonna do one evening ritual for the mom on the go, for the college student, for the one who doesn't have time for a 12-step skincare routine.

Nikhil Kamath 1:54:51 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:54:51 Um, and I think-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:54:52 That's very progressive, actually.

Diipa Khosla 1:54:54 Yeah, and I... We did this already two and a half years ago, where everybody was only buying the 700 rupee vitamin C from Ordinary or this, and I'm like: Wait, they're gonna get there. Like, at one point, 'cause we saw it in the West as well.

Nikhil Kamath 1:55:06 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:55:06 It was the Ordinary that led the way, and then it was the Drunk Elephants. It was the-

Guest 1:55:11 ... uh, Youth To The Peoples-

Diipa Khosla 1:55:13 Youth To The Peoples, all the other brands that really brought them together, that people are like, "Okay, one, that's it. I don't need anything else."

Bhakti Modi 1:55:19 And this is moving even into makeup, right?

Diipa Khosla 1:55:21 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:55:21 So you want it's-

Diipa Khosla 1:55:23 Skincare

Bhakti Modi 1:55:23 ... skinification of makeup.

Diipa Khosla 1:55:25 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:55:25 So anything to... You don't wanna put anything on your skin that harms it. So skincare ingredients in makeup products, and layered with an SPF. So imagine that you're just putting that one product on the go. So if I don't have time, but I'm coming here-

Diipa Khosla 1:55:39 Mm.

Bhakti Modi 1:55:39 -and I just have that one product-

Nikhil Kamath 1:55:40 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:55:40 -it should do the, do the job.

Diipa Khosla 1:55:42 Everything for me.

Bhakti Modi 1:55:42 It, it moisturizes my skin, it protects me from the sun, and it allows me to have a, a good amount of coverage for my no-makeup look.

Diipa Khosla 1:55:48 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:55:49 It's-

Diipa Khosla 1:55:49 Like multipurpose, multi-active.

Bhakti Modi 1:55:51 Exactly. On the go.

Diipa Khosla 1:55:52 On the go, that's what the consumer wants.

Nikhil Kamath 1:55:54 Do you think the next wave could be that in my bathroom I have three bottles, one which says morning, one that says afternoon, one that says-

Diipa Khosla 1:56:03 Afternoon, what do you need for [laughing] ?

Bhakti Modi 1:56:05 [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:56:05 Yeah. Then two bottles?

Diipa Khosla 1:56:06 Two, yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:56:06 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:56:07 Yeah?

Diipa Khosla 1:56:07 Yeah. And sunscreen. So the two bottles would be like your actives, like your serums.

Nikhil Kamath 1:56:13 The morning will have the sunscreen.

Diipa Khosla 1:56:15 Okay, fine.

Nikhil Kamath 1:56:16 Right?

Diipa Khosla 1:56:16 Then you're fine, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:56:18 Another, yeah-

Diipa Khosla 1:56:18 You can put the sunscreen together with it.

Nikhil Kamath 1:56:19 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:56:19 Mm. Another big trend in, in, in Gen Z, I think, is also around stress management. So skincare, like skinification of hair, for example-

Diipa Khosla 1:56:27 Yes

Shantanu Deshpande 1:56:27 ... a skincare that helps you sleep better is hugely... Like, magnesium roll-ons are, like, exploded. Helps you sleep better.

Nikhil Kamath 1:56:34 Is that like a-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:56:37 Sleep well at night, you get great skin

Nikhil Kamath 1:56:38 ... vitaminizing something? I mean, I could eat the magnesium pill as well, but...

Shantanu Deshpande 1:56:41 Yeah.

Diipa Khosla 1:56:42 Yeah.

Shantanu Deshpande 1:56:42 So great, great-

Diipa Khosla 1:56:43 Like skinification.

Bhakti Modi 1:56:44 There's some studies shown-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:56:45 Yeah

Bhakti Modi 1:56:45 ... that the magnesium is absorbed by, like-

Nikhil Kamath 1:56:48 Yeah

Bhakti Modi 1:56:48 ... skin better, then your gut-

Shantanu Deshpande 1:56:49 Right

Bhakti Modi 1:56:50 ... takes it away or something. There were some studies. I think pe- doctors would still say you can do the pills. I, I take the pills. Um, but indeed, magnesium lotion, magnesium oil, magnesium da, da, da, da, because apparently it gets into your bloodstream more from your skin.

Nikhil Kamath 1:57:03 Isn't that more a magnesium thin- thing than a skincare thing?

Diipa Khosla 1:57:06 Yeah.

Bhakti Modi 1:57:06 Where did magnesium come from?

Nikhil Kamath 1:57:08 Yeah.