Two Pharma Giants Who'd Never Met | Mankind & Dr. Reddy's | WTF is Pharma?

1. 0:00 – 4:27

   Introduction

   1. NKNikhil Kamath0:00

      [upbeat music] India makes medicines that heals billions of people across the world. Most of them have no idea who's behind it. After much demand, we brought together two of India's pharma giants, Dr. Reddy's and Mankind, to help you, the young entrepreneurs of this country, grasp the industry's nuances. Their products are household names, probably consumed by you at some time, and of course consumed by millions. So we decided to put a face to these tall birds. So how do you talk yourself into it every day?

   2. RJRajeev Juneja0:47

      Supposed to prove it to my family, to my brother, that I'm worth something. So the top was only one that, uh, how can I make it to a level that I can start respecting myself?

   3. NKNikhil Kamath1:04

      And I'm sure you've been through multiple phases of going through tough times.

   4. GPG.V. Prasad1:09

      Um, the biggest challenge I ever had was in our operations. This happened in the mid, uh, last decade, in the middle of the last decade around. We had safety incidents where, you know, people died, and that really shook me up and really put me in a deep state of depression. So that was a very difficult time for me.

   5. NKNikhil Kamath1:33

      Reddy Pharmaceuticals is headed by G.V. Prasad and brings in roughly three billion in revenue. Mankind is led by Rajeev Juneja and his brother with an annual turnover of about forty thousand crores. With numbers like these, many would coast, but not Rajeev or GV. Their hunger keeps pushing the boundaries. Here's the thing nobody tells you. India is called the pharmacy of the world, but that's by volume. By revenue, we're barely a rounding error. We make the drugs, but someone else makes the money. So who and why, and more importantly, where does a twenty-five-year-old find an opening in all of this? That's exactly what we asked.

   6. NKNikhil Kamath2:25

      What is the business opportunity here? Can you guys think of anything else for the twenty-five-year-old? There are one in twenty-eight unicorns in India today. There is one in pharma drug innovation. [upbeat music] This is very casual. I was telling him earlier, Prasad-

   7. GPG.V. Prasad3:41

      Mm-hmm.

   8. NKNikhil Kamath3:42

      Our audience is largely young people who want to start a business in your industry. So we won't speak so much about your company in particular. There's nothing controversial. There's no headline kind of stuff. It's very much everything a twenty-five-year-old needs to start a business in the pharma industry. So think both of you are professors today and you are teaching a class of young twenty-five-year-olds. I'm part of that class, so I will keep asking you questions. Before we start, maybe you guys can tell me a bit about yourselves. I know you guys already. You're very successful, popular people. But a little bit about your life and how you got to be where you are. Would you like

2. 4:27 – 10:11

   Rajeev Juneja's path from medical-store apprentice to building Mankind

   1. NKNikhil Kamath4:27

      to go first?

   2. RJRajeev Juneja4:27

      I can go first. I don't have any issues. My, my name is Rajeev Juneja, and my-- I have one wife [laughing] and I have five kids, three daughters, two sons. I mean, daughters means, I mean, they are daughter-in-laws and one granddaughter. So I come from, um, a place called Meerut, which is sixty kilometers away from, uh, Delhi. I'm, uh, I'm new in Delhi. Um, two thousand and four, five, we came to Delhi, and before that, uh, um, my education, my brought up all was in Meerut. And, uh, I'm a college dropout because, uh, circumstances were like this. And, uh, number one, I was not interested in study, studies. And so that's why I got an excuse, uh, that, uh, there's a compulsion in the family and the money is not there. So I used to go to, uh, my brother's medical store. There I learned how to run a pharmacy. Like people go to nani's place in summer vacation, I used to go to that medical store for two months. So eight, nine months I worked over there. That was from tenth class to PUC part one. Then one day I said, "I wanna be a medical rep." I became a medical rep in my brother's company, worked ten years over there. And, uh, there I did a lot of things and started a company called Mankind in nineteen ninety-five.

   3. NKNikhil Kamath5:57

      Nineteen ninety-five?

   4. RJRajeev Juneja5:58

      Ninety-five. Yeah.

   5. NKNikhil Kamath5:59

      It's been that long?

   6. RJRajeev Juneja5:59

      Yeah, thirty years.

   7. NKNikhil Kamath6:00

      Wow!

   8. RJRajeev Juneja6:01

      It's been a while.

   9. NKNikhil Kamath6:02

      Just one second. Uska chain le main bhul gaya hoon. Don't, uh, leave him open.

   10. SPSpeaker6:15

       I'm telling him don't keep the chain

   11. NKNikhil Kamath6:20

       Okay, let's continue.

   12. RJRajeev Juneja6:21

       Today, whatever Mankind is, is because of, uh, whatever I'll say destiny dictates.

   13. SPSpeaker6:25

       How did you go from pharmaceuticals to your business? Like your experience of working in a pharmaceutical store and starting that, what was it?

   14. RJRajeev Juneja6:36

       Uh, see, see what basically happens in life, what you hate, um, becomes a big lesson for you. I used to hate going to the pharmacy, cleaning, sweeping, [chuckles] buying goods from wholesale market. I mean, um, at the age when my friends were enjoying. Uh, so that was the lesson, how market really work, how sales reps, how companies, how doctors, um, operate. How this market operates, I never knew that. And then I became a medical rep, uh, in every local kind of a company. It was local means in the sense that like black and white company. Not even colors were there in boxes and visual aids or literatures. So when you work in that kind of a company, uh, if you will not become a brand yourself, uh, company will not run. Uh, where failure rate is 80, 90%. Every time just-- You, you become so thick-skinned, at the same time sensitive. I mean, it was, uh, somewhat oxymoron. Same time you are ziddi or thick-skinned, same time you are very, very sensitive. Um, when you go through that kind of a phase and these two enable that, uh, one time that company start, which was started with 69,000 rupees in '84, became Meerut's number one company. We had beaten Glaxo, Cipla, any company, everybody, every company. Sheer hard work. Sheer hard work. That's it. I mean, uh, haar nahi maani, karna hai hi karna hai, choice hi kuch nahi hai. When you have this kind of grit, something good really happens. We were almost Western UP's top 10 companies. And then, um, some family separation was there. So me and my brother said, uh, "We'll start a new company," and we got 50 lakh rupees. And in those days, Bestocare was 10 crore revenue company. That's just a very peaceful partition and we wanted to get away. Every learning was not in Mankind. Every learning happened during that time of huge struggle.

   15. SPSpeaker9:00

       What is Mankind today? Can you explain what is what?

   16. RJRajeev Juneja9:03

       [sighs] Mankind today is fourth largest pharma company. Uh, the revenue of more than 40,000 crore rupees. We are the company which, uh, operates in veterinary side as well. We operate in pet side as well. We are a OTC company as well. Uh-

   17. SPSpeaker9:26

       What's the biggest part of Mankind?

   18. RJRajeev Juneja9:28

       The biggest, biggest part is pharma. Biggest part's, uh, say 85% is pharma.

   19. SPSpeaker9:34

       Like taking one particular product in this?

   20. RJRajeev Juneja9:37

       Yeah. Uh, one product which is, uh, quite a big one is Telmikind. It's for hypertension. 1,000 crore rupees. Yeah. Second brand would be Manforce. That's quite a known name. Condoms around, uh, together 600 crore rupees. That is what Mankind... Mankind is basically people say it's a OTC kind of a company, uh, because of Manforce. But, um, if you just look and go deeper down, it's a pharma company.

3. 10:11 – 16:23

   Mankind's contrarian OTC and bottom-up market strategy

   1. RJRajeev Juneja10:11

      Intentionally we started, um, OTC because we wanted to be known. When you start very small, we started from Meerut, and we are nothing. Um, and we never, ever started all India in one go. First Western UP only, first made a try. And slowly and gradually Eastern UP, then Haryana, then Punjab basically evolved. Wherever we went, it's like we were a small company rising very fast. So after all this, what you basically see is respect, name. And how can you get the name? Then you come on television. How can you come on television? As a pharma company, you cannot come. So launch hua isi mein. Your OTC company would be there. In the end, your logo would be displayed. And we used to keep logo for a longer period. Otherwise, just generally it's, uh, half a second. We used to keep it for more than a second. That was the strategy. Magazines, newspaper, every place. So actually, uh, we basically wanted to propagate Mankind all over India before Mankind is to be launched any place. South side we were not there. We came, came to South 19 years back. We are 30 years old, but it was all gradual. We were not in a hurry. Our India was UP. Our India became Haryana and Punjab and then UP. Our India, we never thought that India is one. All focused. It was always very focused approach, deepest coverage. And, uh, he's a scientist. He's a different guy. Uh, he, he come from that, uh, top side of the pyramid of, uh, pharma, R&D and, uh, other things. I come from-

   2. SPSpeaker12:08

      I always used to think of you guys like Amandos

   3. NKNikhil Kamath12:11

      Come in-

   4. GPG.V. Prasad12:12

      [laughs]

   5. NKNikhil Kamath12:12

      ... and push forward all the competition aside and go ahead. [laughs]

   6. GPG.V. Prasad12:15

      I mean, we, we basically call ourself, I mean, FMCB, FNCG of pharma.

   7. NKNikhil Kamath12:22

      Mm.

   8. GPG.V. Prasad12:23

      I mean, uh, we had nothing, uh, same branded generic 20 brands are there-

   9. NKNikhil Kamath12:28

      No, but you are very unconventional.

   10. GPG.V. Prasad12:30

       Yeah, totally.

   11. NKNikhil Kamath12:30

       How you got into the market, how you pushed out.

   12. GPG.V. Prasad12:35

       Never followed anything of the industry. Nah, we're absolutely contrarian, 100%. And even, even right now, if everybody's doing something, I will not do. If something is

   13. NKNikhil Kamath12:47

       What are you most bullish about these days? Is it, uh, G part of the, the G part of FMCP or the FM?

   14. GPG.V. Prasad12:58

       [laughs] I'm most bullish now, I mean, uh, as you basically evolve, um, we are going to come in this category.

   15. NKNikhil Kamath13:07

       In which category? Which mean?

   16. GPG.V. Prasad13:07

       In his category. These guys get very young, R&D guys. That's our next goal. And, uh-

   17. NKNikhil Kamath13:13

       You guys into that, like between you guys-

   18. GPG.V. Prasad13:15

       First time.

   19. NKNikhil Kamath13:16

       Never? Wow. We go in and sit, there's mosquito time and I'll put ... 15 minutes there'll be mosquitoes.

   20. GPG.V. Prasad13:25

       Mm-hmm.

   21. NKNikhil Kamath13:27

       It's until here.

   22. GPG.V. Prasad13:28

       But I mean, if you, if you just ask me, mosquitoes in Delhi versus this place, no mosquitoes. I can't say. [laughs]

   23. NKNikhil Kamath13:34

       No, they come strangely at one particular time at 5:45.

   24. GPG.V. Prasad13:38

       Ah.

   25. NKNikhil Kamath13:38

       They suddenly come, and then at 6:30 they're not there.

   26. GPG.V. Prasad13:42

       Mm-hmm.

   27. NKNikhil Kamath13:43

       Which is very strange where they come from. But come, we can go inside. [upbeat music] What's up? Change? Come. Huh? Change. Hmm? Hmm? [laughs]

   28. GPG.V. Prasad14:13

       All the

   29. NKNikhil Kamath14:13

       So for starters, I wanted to understand what did your first day in pharma look like?

   30. GPG.V. Prasad14:29

       Uh, nervous, bad.
4. 16:23 – 23:06

   G.V. Prasad on science and the Dr. Reddy's lineage

   1. GPG.V. Prasad16:23

      now. Uh, in those days they were my gurus or whatever you call it. I made a choice that, uh, I should be in the company of smart people.

   2. NKNikhil Kamath16:32

      And did something, you know, significantly shift when you say, "Okay, I have made it now, and I don't need to be worried"? What was that moment like? Did you buy something? Did you have access to something that you didn't have before? What was that?

   3. GPG.V. Prasad16:47

      Till now that day has not come.

   4. NKNikhil Kamath16:49

      [laughs]

   5. GPG.V. Prasad16:50

      Honestly.

   6. NKNikhil Kamath16:54

      Have you always loved science?

   7. GPG.V. Prasad16:56

      I always liked science, yeah.

   8. NKNikhil Kamath16:57

      Interesting.

   9. GPG.V. Prasad16:58

      No, I really loved it because, you know, it's like magic. You take simple molecules, combine them to make complex molecules, and suddenly this molecule cures a disease.

   10. NKNikhil Kamath17:07

       And what made you come back?

   11. GPG.V. Prasad17:09

       I was always, uh... I never thought I'd settle in the US.

   12. NKNikhil Kamath17:13

       Really?

   13. GPG.V. Prasad17:13

       Yeah.

   14. NKNikhil Kamath17:14

       I mean, that's so different for so many people who grew up in that era.

   15. GPG.V. Prasad17:18

       I think fam- business families generally expect their children to come back.

   16. NKNikhil Kamath17:22

       [laughs]

   17. GPG.V. Prasad17:22

       So I was kind of.

   18. NKNikhil Kamath17:24

       And what would your advice be for someone who's growing up in a business family?

   19. GPG.V. Prasad17:27

       At that time, actually, I wanted to do a PhD, but I got admission. But my father's business, he was going through some trouble and asked me to come back and join him. I'd ask people now to do what they love to do, what their dream is. [upbeat music]

   20. NKNikhil Kamath17:42

       Fate has its own way. Mr. G.V. Prasad came back to India to run the family construction business. He then went on to start his first pharmaceutical venture with his father. Their factory was right next to one belonging to Dr. Anji Reddy, who was already a successful entrepreneur. Around this time, he got married to Anuradha Reddy, who was Dr. Reddy's daughter. In 1988, the new pharma venture was not scaling, and his father-in-law, growing fast and needing capacity for Dr. Reddy's Laboratories, bought the plant and merged it with his. GV Prasad moved on, went back to construction, and then one day the phone rang. Dr. Reddy was running two companies at the time, Cheminor Drugs and Dr. Reddy's Laboratories. The co-founder of Cheminor Drugs had parted ways due to differences. Dr. Reddy needed someone he could trust. GV Prasad said yes without thinking. That was 1990. He became the CEO of Cheminor Drugs. The group was doing under 100 crores. He ran one company, built it, scaled it, and in 2001, Cheminor merged with Dr. Reddy's and was listed on NSE. Before Dr. Anji Reddy passed, he wrote a book. He called it The Unfinished Agenda, a dream of discovering new molecules, new cures, a truly Indian pharmaceutical legacy. He didn't live to see it completed. The effort still continues through Origene Oncology.

   21. GPG.V. Prasad19:49

       Mince it at the table so we get light? Yes, sir.

   22. NKNikhil Kamath19:53

       So what would you say is the one differentiating advice that you would give to someone who's building in this space now?

   23. GPG.V. Prasad19:58

       In pharma?

   24. NKNikhil Kamath19:59

       Yeah.

   25. GPG.V. Prasad20:00

       I'd say be careful which part of the ph- business you're entering. Enter a space where there is room to play, grow, and mistakes can be tolerated. Focus on where your strength lies, where your competitive advantage will be, what problem that you're solving in a unique way, and get into that. Think through all this before you jump in. These are a little more popular actually. Oh. Souza and Jammini Roy and- Mera jo favorite hai tumhara woh wala. Woh tumhen dikhaya hai na? That side wall. This Souza is quite rare- Yeah ... because normally he paints portraits. Mm. Yeah. He doesn't paint full size. Mm. It's very interesting 'cause it, you look at somebody who's like a handicapped man- Mm ... being carried. Then you look at the man carrying the handicapped person is also handicapped. It's kind of saying to society that people who look strong are also handicapped. He's a quite popular one, no? Souza is known, known. These are all popular. Souza, Jammini Roy, uh, Taye. Vaikuntam. Vaikuntam. Vaikuntam is my city. That is The Last Supper. Ah. But all the characters have been changed to artists. Oh, really? Yeah. Huh? Yeah, yeah. Huh. So you see M.F. Husain. Ah. You see Dali.

   26. NKNikhil Kamath21:27

       Oh.

   27. GPG.V. Prasad21:28

       You see- Oh, really? Yeah. This is very interesting. Dali is in the center. Yeah. There's Rembrandt, there's Van Gogh, there's Andy Warhol. Some... It's a paint or what? Mm. No. It's a paint? It's a graphite pen, pencils. Who, who's the guy? Who, just this- Again, from Baroda This, this is Jammini Roy, right? Yeah. This is also Jammini Roy. Yeah, that's Jammini. Very good. Who's this sister? These are a Italian painter from 300 year ago, 300 years ago. Wow. 1700s. He's a master, but his name is not attributed. Mm. It's like a unverified one. Yes. That one Kiran gave me actually. Which one? This one? Yeah. Oh, this one. The one above it. Above it, okay. So Kiran's husband- Looks like a Irish one ... correct. So John- Yeah, John's, yeah ... this is from somewhere near John's, uh, house. [laughs] You kn- if you just look at the paintings and- Uh ... if nobody tells you- Uh ... who's the artist, what is the meaning- Yeah ... you just- Yeah, a blank canvas is there ... yeah. I have a lot of stuff to ask you guys. Who did research from your team? [laughs] Uh, Roshan. [laughs] He told me, yeah. Yeah. Roshan did the research on this one. Okay. So you said you want to start with establishing the Indian pharma industry, then we get into the different molecules and- Different modalities. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

5. 23:06 – 29:15

   Segmenting the industry and how generic drugs are made

   1. GPG.V. Prasad23:06

      So, um, let me start with segmenting the industry first. Mm-hmm. And then we'll talk about the evolution of that segment- Yeah ... and I think Rajiv will- Yeah ... will have more-

   2. NKNikhil Kamath23:17

      We'll focus on Rajiv more for business and-

   3. GPG.V. Prasad23:19

      Perfectly fine

   4. NKNikhil Kamath23:20

      ... Professor Prasad more on science.

   5. GPG.V. Prasad23:21

      Even I'm learning from him. I mean- Uh ... there's certain things, I mean, I keep talking to my R&D guy. Uh. And he explains me things. Uh. Then it really goes away because my mind is always there somewhere else. Right. Actually, I'm not a scientist also. I'm a business guy. [laughs] See, I mean, somebody who has spent so many years- Yeah ... over there in majorly science side, I mean, you become knowledgeable. Yeah. [laughs] My... Yeah. For me, you're a scientist. Yeah. So let me start with the segmentation. Okay. Broadly, the industry has four or five verticals, if you call- Okay ... call them in- Okay ... IT language. API, active ingredient. You want to start by biggest vertical to smallest? In, from an Indian context, the biggest one is pharmaceuticals. Okay. Generic pharmaceuticals. Generic pharma is the biggest. Yeah. They are branded generics actually, uh, is the biggest vertical. It's actually copies of products which were discovered, innovated by major pharmaceuticals around the world. We make them equivalent to them And there's a whole study on how do you manage equals. I don't know if you want to know that.

   6. NKNikhil Kamath24:29

      So you explained how a drug is discovered.

   7. GPG.V. Prasad24:31

      Yeah.

   8. NKNikhil Kamath24:32

      Then you explained patent.

   9. GPG.V. Prasad24:33

      Yeah.

   10. NKNikhil Kamath24:34

       So once the patent runs out-

   11. GPG.V. Prasad24:36

       Yeah

   12. NKNikhil Kamath24:36

       ... then the generic starts, or?

   13. GPG.V. Prasad24:37

       Even before it's, uh, runs out, you can do the R&D work.

   14. NKNikhil Kamath24:41

       Mm.

   15. GPG.V. Prasad24:41

       Keep it ready for the day the patent expires and then sell it.

   16. NKNikhil Kamath24:44

       How does a American ... I'm just saying American-

   17. GPG.V. Prasad24:47

       Yeah

   18. NKNikhil Kamath24:47

       ... European, whatever-

   19. GPG.V. Prasad24:48

       Sure

   20. NKNikhil Kamath24:48

       ... company decide which pharmaceutical company in India, China, whichever country, do they give the contract to?

   21. GPG.V. Prasad24:54

       They don't get any- They don't have a say on this. Anybody who wants to do it after the patent expires is free to do it. Uh, so it's like this. The innovator discovers drugs.

   22. NKNikhil Kamath25:06

       Mm.

   23. GPG.V. Prasad25:06

       He has a protected monopoly for a few num- num- few years.

   24. NKNikhil Kamath25:10

       15 years.

   25. GPG.V. Prasad25:10

       Once ... Yeah, it depends on-

   26. NKNikhil Kamath25:12

       Mm

   27. GPG.V. Prasad25:12

       ... uh, once the patent runs out-

   28. NKNikhil Kamath25:14

       Mm

   29. GPG.V. Prasad25:14

       ... you can, anybody in the world can develop an equivalent product.

   30. NKNikhil Kamath25:18

       Mm.
6. 29:15 – 36:40

   Why drug purity standards are shared but enforcement differs

   1. NKNikhil Kamath29:15

      Another question.

   2. GPG.V. Prasad29:16

      Mm-hmm.

   3. NKNikhil Kamath29:16

      When I buy a tablet in the US-

   4. GPG.V. Prasad29:18

      Mm-hmm

   5. NKNikhil Kamath29:19

      ... it could be paracetamol, and I buy a tablet in India-

   6. GPG.V. Prasad29:22

      Mm-hmm

   7. NKNikhil Kamath29:23

      ... why do I feel like the US one works better?

   8. GPG.V. Prasad29:27

      I, I don't think that's a, uh ... That's subjective. Your-

   9. RJRajeev Juneja29:31

      The, the irony basically is what?

   10. GPG.V. Prasad29:32

       Mm.

   11. RJRajeev Juneja29:33

       That 40, 50% of drugs-

   12. GPG.V. Prasad29:34

       Another one made from India

   13. RJRajeev Juneja29:35

       ... you buy over there are manufactured here.

   14. GPG.V. Prasad29:37

       Yeah.

   15. RJRajeev Juneja29:37

       Indian companies.

   16. GPG.V. Prasad29:39

       Mm.

   17. RJRajeev Juneja29:39

       But yes, I mean, regulatory norms are very stringent-

   18. GPG.V. Prasad29:43

       Mm

   19. RJRajeev Juneja29:43

       ... when you export to US.

   20. GPG.V. Prasad29:45

       Mm.

   21. RJRajeev Juneja29:45

       I mean, one thing basically which I know a- actually, when you basically make a drug-

   22. GPG.V. Prasad29:49

       Mm

   23. RJRajeev Juneja29:50

       ... the regulator says that if the, this impurities are 1 or 2%-

   24. GPG.V. Prasad29:57

       [laughs]

   25. RJRajeev Juneja29:57

       ... it's fine. For example, you say it is 100 milligram tablet.

   26. GPG.V. Prasad30:00

       Mm.

   27. RJRajeev Juneja30:01

       So it is, actually the API purity is 98, 98.9% or 99.5%.

   28. GPG.V. Prasad30:07

       Mm.

   29. RJRajeev Juneja30:07

       Correct? That means what is .5%? These are impurities.

   30. GPG.V. Prasad30:11

       Mm.
7. 36:40 – 41:00

   Why India is the pharmacy of the world by volume, not revenue

   1. GPG.V. Prasad36:40

      what has made mankind?

   2. NKNikhil Kamath36:41

      And when people say India is the pharmacy of the world, they mean by volume, they don't mean by revenue.

   3. GPG.V. Prasad36:47

      Yeah. Volume.

   4. NKNikhil Kamath36:48

      Volume is, what? 60%?

   5. GPG.V. Prasad36:51

      60% of the global-

   6. NKNikhil Kamath36:52

      But revenue is, like, 5, 6%.

   7. GPG.V. Prasad36:54

      Not 5, I think 15 or so. No?

   8. NKNikhil Kamath36:56

      Huh?

   9. RJRajeev Juneja36:59

      By value.

   10. NKNikhil Kamath36:59

       By value.

   11. GPG.V. Prasad37:00

       To say approximately 5%. Or 5%, yeah.

   12. NKNikhil Kamath37:03

       Why is that? Even-

   13. GPG.V. Prasad37:04

       Because we are in the generic industry. We are not the pharmacy of the world, we are the generic pharmacy of the world. We sell generics largely, and there the pricing is much, much lower.

   14. NKNikhil Kamath37:16

       Over there, I mean-

   15. GPG.V. Prasad37:17

       Just for-

   16. NKNikhil Kamath37:17

       ... who makes the money?

   17. GPG.V. Prasad37:18

       Yeah.

   18. NKNikhil Kamath37:18

       The pharmacies.

   19. GPG.V. Prasad37:21

       Yeah.

   20. NKNikhil Kamath37:22

       Yeah. Walgreens of the world.

   21. GPG.V. Prasad37:24

       So in the US-

   22. NKNikhil Kamath37:25

       Mm

   23. GPG.V. Prasad37:26

       ... the innovator price-

   24. NKNikhil Kamath37:28

       Mm

   25. GPG.V. Prasad37:28

       ... if it's 100-

   26. NKNikhil Kamath37:29

       Mm

   27. GPG.V. Prasad37:30

       ... post patent expiry, if there are more than five players, the price falls to north of ... The discount falls north of, north of 95%. Can be sometimes 1%, 2% of the innovators price. So that's the value difference. We play in that-

   28. NKNikhil Kamath37:45

       Mm

   29. GPG.V. Prasad37:45

       ... part of the world, whereas they are on the, uh, you know, premium price.

   30. NKNikhil Kamath37:50

       When you're selling generic also, there's a brand attached to it.
8. 41:00 – 45:17

   How margins are split across the pharma value chain

   1. GPG.V. Prasad41:00

      Yes.

   2. RJRajeev Juneja41:00

      Yeah.

   3. GPG.V. Prasad41:01

      And you just, just take it like this, 100 rupees is the MRP.

   4. NKNikhil Kamath41:04

      MRP, okay.

   5. GPG.V. Prasad41:06

      Yeah. That's a better way of looking at it.

   6. NKNikhil Kamath41:07

      So in this value chain, how much goes to the pharmacy?

   7. GPG.V. Prasad41:11

      20%.

   8. NKNikhil Kamath41:12

      Okay.

   9. GPG.V. Prasad41:13

      10% wholesaler.

   10. NKNikhil Kamath41:14

       10% wholesaler.

   11. GPG.V. Prasad41:16

       Uh-

   12. NKNikhil Kamath41:16

       Doctor?

   13. GPG.V. Prasad41:17

       No.

   14. RJRajeev Juneja41:17

       No, no, doctor doesn't get anything.

   15. GPG.V. Prasad41:18

       No doctor.

   16. RJRajeev Juneja41:18

       Distributor gets something.

   17. GPG.V. Prasad41:19

       2%, 2%.

   18. NKNikhil Kamath41:20

       But why does the doctor then pick one over the other?

   19. RJRajeev Juneja41:23

       Relationship.

   20. GPG.V. Prasad41:23

       What, what doctors-

   21. NKNikhil Kamath41:24

       Relationship meaning you don't give money, but you give something else.

   22. RJRajeev Juneja41:27

       No.

   23. GPG.V. Prasad41:27

       We don't give anything.

   24. RJRajeev Juneja41:28

       It's like, for example-

   25. GPG.V. Prasad41:29

       It's illegal to give anything

   26. RJRajeev Juneja41:30

       ... no, it's ... For example, in our case, when we started Mankind, nobody from bigger companies were going to these doctors.

   27. NKNikhil Kamath41:39

       Right.

   28. RJRajeev Juneja41:40

       They, they were ... I mean, nobody thought that one should visit them.

   29. NKNikhil Kamath41:43

       Right.

   30. RJRajeev Juneja41:44

       So we went over there, we convinced them-
9. 45:17 – 53:15

   Whether online pharmacy and consumer brands are real openings

   1. NKNikhil Kamath45:17

      Yeah. [laughs]

   2. RJRajeev Juneja45:17

      Give to everybody, make everybody happy. See, I mean, point is what-

   3. NKNikhil Kamath45:20

      Uh-huh

   4. RJRajeev Juneja45:21

      ... we want to grow very fast.

   5. NKNikhil Kamath45:22

      Right

   6. RJRajeev Juneja45:22

      You're supposed to really capture the imagination-

   7. NKNikhil Kamath45:24

      Mm

   8. RJRajeev Juneja45:25

      ... of the consumer, ca- customer. How can you do that?

   9. NKNikhil Kamath45:28

      Yeah.

   10. RJRajeev Juneja45:29

       We thought like that.

   11. NKNikhil Kamath45:30

       Mm. In this, I have a question now. Is online pharmacy a good business idea?

   12. GPG.V. Prasad45:38

       It's picking up. It's still not, I think, uh-

   13. NKNikhil Kamath45:42

       Will it kill retail pharmacies like Amazon did?

   14. GPG.V. Prasad45:47

       I'm not sure, but I think, um, certain category of products will ... I mean, these quick commerce people are delivering medicines now, like Zepto.

   15. NKNikhil Kamath45:56

       Is that le- like, they have a doctor call you up, 80 rupees doctor consultation, and then they send you the medicine. Is that legal?

   16. RJRajeev Juneja46:04

       I mean, this basically is curving the rule, actually. Um, as per the law, without doctor's consent, prescription, you cannot sell.

   17. NKNikhil Kamath46:14

       Mm.

   18. RJRajeev Juneja46:14

       So for example, if I go to on- online pharmacy and says that, "I need this."

   19. NKNikhil Kamath46:18

       Mm.

   20. RJRajeev Juneja46:18

       So they have a doctor-

   21. NKNikhil Kamath46:19

       Mm

   22. RJRajeev Juneja46:19

       ... who will talk to the patient, write the same medicine, send it.

   23. NKNikhil Kamath46:23

       Right.

   24. GPG.V. Prasad46:24

       Yeah, but I'll tell you why it's legal.

   25. NKNikhil Kamath46:26

       Mm.

   26. GPG.V. Prasad46:26

       Online consultation is legal, so what they're essentially doing is a l- online consultation to the-

   27. RJRajeev Juneja46:31

       But Prasad, for example, I'm a doctor, I have written you, right? You go to a f- online pharmacy, then?

   28. GPG.V. Prasad46:39

       So if you have the prescription-

   29. RJRajeev Juneja46:40

       Prescription, that's all

   30. GPG.V. Prasad46:41

       ... you just upload it, and they'll give it to you. That's it.
10. 53:15 – 59:10

    Whether hospital roll-up valuations are justified

    1. GPG.V. Prasad53:15

       ... across the board.

    2. NKNikhil Kamath53:16

       This is a digression. This is not related to your industries. I work in private equity, so a lot of my friends in the US especially are feeling very gung ho about hospitals in India.

    3. GPG.V. Prasad53:28

       Yes.

    4. NKNikhil Kamath53:29

       They're buying many small hospitals-

    5. GPG.V. Prasad53:30

       Consolidating

    6. NKNikhil Kamath53:30

       ... aggregating them-

    7. GPG.V. Prasad53:32

       Mm

    8. NKNikhil Kamath53:32

       ... putting a brand behind them. You've seen Max, Manipal's IPO is coming up.

    9. GPG.V. Prasad53:37

       [clears throat]

    10. NKNikhil Kamath53:38

        These are also friends of mine, the hospital owners.

    11. GPG.V. Prasad53:40

        And they have, uh, multiples of 80, 90.

    12. NKNikhil Kamath53:42

        That's my question. Is that justified? If you buy a hospital individually on the, something in this locality, you're probably able to buy it at five to 10 times EBITDA.

    13. GPG.V. Prasad53:54

        Yeah.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath53:54

        But once it's listed, it suddenly has a multiple of 80, 90 once a brand is attached. How do you see that business?

    15. RJRajeev Juneja54:02

        See, I mean-

    16. GPG.V. Prasad54:02

        See, to justify 80, 90, just calculate how much they have to grow at.

    17. NKNikhil Kamath54:06

        Yeah.

    18. GPG.V. Prasad54:07

        The m- the market is underserved, no doubt about it, but insurance is well dev- not well developed. The people coming in, uh, largely are under the government schemes-

    19. NKNikhil Kamath54:18

        Mm

    20. GPG.V. Prasad54:18

        ... which puts a cap on earnings. So for growth, you have to keep adding beds, adding beds, adding beds. And you see that. Everybody says, "We are adding 1,000 beds. We are adding 500."

    21. NKNikhil Kamath54:26

        But they have this logic, no? They say in the US, for every three people, there is a bed. In India, for every-

    22. GPG.V. Prasad54:31

        Yeah

    23. NKNikhil Kamath54:31

        ... 100 people, there is a bed.

    24. GPG.V. Prasad54:32

        It's an underserved market, I agree.

    25. NKNikhil Kamath54:33

        Mm.

    26. GPG.V. Prasad54:34

        But it's, uh, it's like everything else, it, uh ... [sighs]

    27. NKNikhil Kamath54:38

        Then we, to, to go at 80, 90-

    28. RJRajeev Juneja54:39

        Say when somebody buys a unorganized-

    29. NKNikhil Kamath54:42

        Mm

    30. RJRajeev Juneja54:42

        ... or a one of, one hospital-
11. 59:10 – 1:03:21

    Tariffs, Jan Aushadhi and drug price controls

    1. NKNikhil Kamath59:11

       Okay, tell me this. Why is China... First, okay, before we go to China, we'll go to US tariff. Tariff on generic drugs apply from April 26th?

    2. GPG.V. Prasad59:21

       No.

    3. NKNikhil Kamath59:22

       They don't apply?

    4. GPG.V. Prasad59:22

       There are no tariff on generics.

    5. RJRajeev Juneja59:23

       No, no, no tariff on?

    6. GPG.V. Prasad59:24

       Mm-hmm.

    7. RJRajeev Juneja59:25

       Essential Commodity Act.

    8. NKNikhil Kamath59:28

       Okay. So China and India are, are at par-

    9. GPG.V. Prasad59:32

       Mm

    10. NKNikhil Kamath59:32

        ... if they are selling in America.

    11. GPG.V. Prasad59:34

        So there is, there, there are innovator-

    12. NKNikhil Kamath59:37

        Right

    13. GPG.V. Prasad59:37

        ... products.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath59:38

        Mm.

    15. GPG.V. Prasad59:39

        If they're made in India, there's 100% tariff on them.

    16. NKNikhil Kamath59:41

        Oh, really?

    17. GPG.V. Prasad59:43

        Yeah.

    18. NKNikhil Kamath59:44

        So if you innovate a drug in India, you pay-

    19. GPG.V. Prasad59:47

        No, if you're selling it to the US-

    20. NKNikhil Kamath59:49

        Uh

    21. GPG.V. Prasad59:50

        ... and it's an innovator drug, not a generic drug-

    22. NKNikhil Kamath59:52

        Uh

    23. GPG.V. Prasad59:52

        ... and it's not manufactured in the US, it's manufactured in India, there is a likelihood of 100% tariff on them. So this affects our CDMO industry, the contract development manufacturing.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath1:00:03

        Yeah. I think we'll come to that CDMO.

    25. GPG.V. Prasad1:00:05

        Yeah.

    26. NKNikhil Kamath1:00:05

        That's also interesting.

    27. GPG.V. Prasad1:00:06

        Yeah.

    28. NKNikhil Kamath1:00:08

        And government has started these pharmacies which are government-

    29. GPG.V. Prasad1:00:11

        Jan Aushadhi, yeah

    30. NKNikhil Kamath1:00:13

        ... yeah. Is that a big deal?
12. 1:03:21 – 1:10:02

    How China built a pharma-innovation ecosystem in a decade

    1. GPG.V. Prasad1:03:21

       medicines.

    2. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:22

       We were reading somewhere that China is suddenly winning a lot of the generic contracts.

    3. GPG.V. Prasad1:03:27

       Not generics, but innovation.

    4. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:29

       Innovation?

    5. GPG.V. Prasad1:03:32

       Uh, China's story is-

    6. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:35

       What are they doing?

    7. GPG.V. Prasad1:03:37

       Okay, they're the number two in the world in terms of innovation.

    8. NKNikhil Kamath1:03:41

       Mm-hmm.

    9. GPG.V. Prasad1:03:42

       Twenty-nine percent of all new drugs are now, I think, in cancer are coming from China. Um, seventy percent of the biologics which, uh, novel biologics, uh, ADCs are coming from there. A very large number of the bispecifics are coming from there. They've overtaken everybody else except the US in innovative medicines.

    10. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:07

        How?

    11. GPG.V. Prasad1:04:10

        This is a long story. I think they started about two thousand fifteen or so. But, um-

    12. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:17

        Mm-hmm

    13. GPG.V. Prasad1:04:18

        ... um, I'll let you murder the-

    14. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:20

        No, no, I'll bite my first. [laughing]

    15. GPG.V. Prasad1:04:25

        Mm-hmm.

    16. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:27

        Mm-hmm.

    17. GPG.V. Prasad1:04:27

        So w- China, as you know-

    18. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:29

        Yeah

    19. GPG.V. Prasad1:04:29

        ... they're a force in what, eight or nine industries.

    20. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:33

        Mm-hmm.

    21. GPG.V. Prasad1:04:34

        They've chose to become leaders at.

    22. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:37

        [laughing]

    23. RJRajeev Juneja1:04:37

        Fly away.

    24. GPG.V. Prasad1:04:38

        You'll never get a fly. Fly is not easy.

    25. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:40

        Uh.

    26. GPG.V. Prasad1:04:41

        So, uh, they did that in biotechnology.

    27. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:45

        Yeah.

    28. GPG.V. Prasad1:04:45

        So there's a national fund.

    29. NKNikhil Kamath1:04:46

        Mm-hmm.

    30. GPG.V. Prasad1:04:46

        There's private, um, uh, non-dilutive financing.
13. 1:10:02 – 1:15:40

    Long-horizon governance and removing entrepreneurial fear

    1. GPG.V. Prasad1:10:03

       Do you think that has to do with the non-election, non-bipartisan nature of governing the country where they can make a plan for 20 years? 100%. Why not? I mean, if you just plan something like R&D- Mm-hmm ... where, uh, I mean, if you start today, I mean, chances of success are after seven years. Mm-hmm. Right? In five years, elections are there, and some other go- government comes. Mm-hmm. But, uh, R- Rajiv- I'm just giving you one particular- This is a, this is an excuse people say. Mm-hmm. If any coun- state in our country has started a good program, the subsequent governments have followed through. They've not disrupted it. Yeah. Very good policy. You take our own state when it was a combined state, Chandrababu Naidu was the master. He put the plans together for the roads- There are certain states which are exceptional. I mean, these are guys who've done good, so if a politician does good, it'll make a difference. If you look at the API market- Good politician, bad politician, I say ... just look at the API market or any other market wherever, I mean, for example, if local industry is not being supported and some other country like China- Mm-hmm ... dump the goods, what happens? In any, any, any, any field it happens. So some kind of a support, some kind of a, I mean, barrier to entry is required. Yeah, but you know what? I think we should learn from the Chinese. From? From the Chinese. These guys have achieved tremendous success in everything they went out and significantly- I'm actually reading a book right now- Mm-hmm ... which is the biography in a way of Deng Xiaoping. Mm-hmm. It's about the transition of Mao to Deng. Mao was like- Mm, mm, mm ... Cultural Revolution- Mm ... fully, fully communist. And Deng came in, and he kinda, like, converted it to some version of capitalism without calling it capitalism. Mm-hmm. If I have to- Market system, whatever. [laughs] If I have to pick one lesson- Mm-hmm ... from what China did right is every state, every mayor competed it with the mayor of his neighboring state. It was a competition. It was a meritocracy. Yeah. The mayor was in a meritocracy. If he didn't do well, he wouldn't progress. Correct. The mayor of Shanghai, you know, becomes, goes to Beijing only if he does a great job in Shanghai. So do you think we- And the guys, same thing here ... we should? I mean, [laughs] there are many ideas we can take from this, uh, whole, uh, you know, the, the way the Chinese have moved in the last 15, 20 years. It's mind-boggling in every field, not just our field. You take, uh, EVs, you take, uh, uh- I was there in China, I mean, uh, Jan- last January. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I was totally amazed to see- Yeah ... the kind of ecosystem they have built up. Yeah. I mean, I feel, uh, the day is not very far- Mm-hmm ... I mean, he will agree with me that, uh, definitely overtake US. Yeah. In, uh- Yeah, yeah. They're not competing with us. Yeah. They're competing with the US. Yeah. They, yeah. That sort of a speed and I'll say support and mindset and talent. What you said in the starting that they've brought talent here, but why talent would come- Mm-hmm ... from US? Why he will leave? Mm-hmm. Because if you, if you give that talent a chance to become an entrepreneur- Mm-hmm ... and government supports you in that

    2. RJRajeev Juneja1:13:09

       It doesn't happen. I mean, some kind of, I'll say, some kind of a support system is required, uh, some kind of a backing is required, uh, money, uh, resources, and also, uh, I'll say, uh, that I am with you.

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:13:25

       Yeah.

    4. RJRajeev Juneja1:13:26

       I mean, uh-

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:13:27

       Yeah

    6. RJRajeev Juneja1:13:27

       ... you're doing a good job for the country.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:13:29

       Yeah.

    8. RJRajeev Juneja1:13:29

       When, when something of this sort happens, I mean, these are really very impressive things. I mean, he carries that particular emotion in his heart.

    9. GPG.V. Prasad1:13:38

       No, I, me, uh, I, I, I'm a great admirer of what they have done. You see the quality of the stuff in, uh, in our own industry.

    10. NKNikhil Kamath1:13:46

        Yeah.

    11. GPG.V. Prasad1:13:46

        In 25 years ago when we started seeing them come in-

    12. NKNikhil Kamath1:13:49

        Yeah

    13. GPG.V. Prasad1:13:49

        ... with low-cost API, low cost, it's like, "These guys, how do they make money? How will they survive? They'll go away from business."

    14. RJRajeev Juneja1:13:55

        How, how-

    15. GPG.V. Prasad1:13:55

        This was what we were saying

    16. RJRajeev Juneja1:13:56

        ... Prasad, how, how you think that API industry of India has been killed by China?

    17. GPG.V. Prasad1:14:00

        They've not been killed, by the way. I'm, I'm not gonna buy that argument also. I think Indian is still, Indians still lead, and I'll tell you why we lead and how we lead. They're, they're not playing the API game. They're selling these cheap intermediates to us, we convert them into API, we make more money than them. So that I don't think is a problem. The problem we, we saw is we were, we didn't read them well. They were selling us these low-cost materials. We thought, "Oh, these guys won't survive. The government is subsidizing. When the power prices go up, they will go run out of business." But they were playing a long game. They were just playing one by one. They didn't want to compete with us on the API, generic API, or the generic business. They wanted to go to the highest end of the value chain, for which they put all the blocks. They put a CDMO bu- business, they put a chemicals, uh, business. They put a, uh, all the petrochemical, uh, raw material, full integration from here to innovation. They own the whole s- uh, chain now. That's, I think, stupendous if you see how they built it with such a v- vision and such a consistency, persistence, and long-range thinking.

    18. RJRajeev Juneja1:15:06

        Yeah, they are smart people, actually. They're no, no less people.

    19. GPG.V. Prasad1:15:09

        Aggressive.

    20. RJRajeev Juneja1:15:09

        Very, very-

    21. GPG.V. Prasad1:15:10

        Entrepreneurs are very strong, very fast

    22. RJRajeev Juneja1:15:12

        ... very smart.

    23. NKNikhil Kamath1:15:12

        I think because that they have the upside. I feel like there's no fear because at the end of the day-

    24. GPG.V. Prasad1:15:18

        Mm

    25. NKNikhil Kamath1:15:18

        ... growth comes first. Everything else is secondary.

    26. GPG.V. Prasad1:15:21

        Mm.

    27. NKNikhil Kamath1:15:21

        And B, the fact that they're competing amongst each other, not just money allocators or risk takers, which are-

    28. GPG.V. Prasad1:15:30

        Yeah

    29. NKNikhil Kamath1:15:30

        ... the entrepreneurs in society, but also the governments. Each state government, each mayor, I think, changes everything.

    30. GPG.V. Prasad1:15:36

        Yeah. And, you know, if you look at the people in government-

14. 1:15:40 – 1:22:01

    China's incentives, talent and leverage over the US

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:15:40

       Yeah

    2. GPG.V. Prasad1:15:40

       ... so, you know, in our system, I don't know, the smartest people, the IS people are very smart.

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:15:46

       Yeah.

    4. GPG.V. Prasad1:15:46

       They are. But here you see them so, they're so sharp.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath1:15:49

       Yeah.

    6. GPG.V. Prasad1:15:49

       Uh, uh, you don't, uh, you know, you, if you compare them with the private sector-

    7. NKNikhil Kamath1:15:53

       Mm

    8. GPG.V. Prasad1:15:53

       ... some of our best m- brains go to private sector. They don't go to government. But here you see the best guys are in government. The thinking-

    9. NKNikhil Kamath1:16:00

       Why is that?

    10. GPG.V. Prasad1:16:01

        I think the system is very, uh, you know, recognizes better.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath1:16:03

        Because it's, it's not, because it's pseudo-communist.

    12. GPG.V. Prasad1:16:06

        Mm.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:16:06

        Proximity to power is the highest value. It's not capital.

    14. GPG.V. Prasad1:16:11

        I have no idea, really. I, I, I don't know, but I was impressed by the quality of thinking among the government people I met there.

    15. RJRajeev Juneja1:16:20

        So my experience over there in China was very different. I mean, so I met, I mean, a number of people, I mean, say, in the quantity of, say, 25 different companies, some startups, and, uh, in 50% of the cases-

    16. GPG.V. Prasad1:16:34

        Mm

    17. RJRajeev Juneja1:16:34

        ... their background was US.

    18. NKNikhil Kamath1:16:37

        Yeah?

    19. GPG.V. Prasad1:16:37

        Yeah.

    20. RJRajeev Juneja1:16:37

        Studied over there.

    21. GPG.V. Prasad1:16:39

        100%

    22. RJRajeev Juneja1:16:39

        In those universities.

    23. GPG.V. Prasad1:16:40

        CEO's are Americans-

    24. NKNikhil Kamath1:16:41

        Yeah

    25. GPG.V. Prasad1:16:41

        ... look like Chinese.

    26. RJRajeev Juneja1:16:42

        Yeah, right. They're Chinese. They were Chinese, and they were called. They came.

    27. NKNikhil Kamath1:16:48

        What was the incentive?

    28. RJRajeev Juneja1:16:49

        Incentive was that, uh, we'll just give you resources, ecosystem, and we'll uphold you. You're a Chinese guy. We're proud of you.

    29. GPG.V. Prasad1:16:57

        But they, they also have monetary incentives to come.

    30. RJRajeev Juneja1:16:59

        Yes, a lot, a lot of monetary incentive.
15. 1:22:01 – 1:25:05

    Why the Ayush and wellness market outgrows pharma

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:22:01

       Is Ayush and Ayurveda. How is it so big? Is it 30 billion?

    2. RJRajeev Juneja1:22:09

       No.

    3. SPSpeaker1:22:11

       24 billion is the, uh, industry, and then there are services which are additional 30%.

    4. NKNikhil Kamath1:22:16

       How can it be that big?

    5. RJRajeev Juneja1:22:20

       There, there are certain companies, uh-

    6. NKNikhil Kamath1:22:22

       Uh, I think this includes the doctors.

    7. RJRajeev Juneja1:22:24

       Yeah.

    8. NKNikhil Kamath1:22:25

       It includes the people giving Ayurvedic massages. It includes Liv.52.

    9. RJRajeev Juneja1:22:30

       No, no, this, this also includes only, I mean, unbranded «Jadi Butis» as well.

    10. NKNikhil Kamath1:22:36

        Yeah.

    11. RJRajeev Juneja1:22:37

        Uh, like for example, [censored] other companies sell. Um, lot of companies are there.

    12. GPG.V. Prasad1:22:44

        Like Triphala.

    13. RJRajeev Juneja1:22:45

        Yeah, plenty of things are there.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath1:22:47

        Shilajit.

    15. RJRajeev Juneja1:22:47

        Shilajit, yeah.

    16. GPG.V. Prasad1:22:48

        Oh, Shilajit.

    17. NKNikhil Kamath1:22:48

        And this is growing by what percentage? Liv.52 is a very popular one.

    18. GPG.V. Prasad1:22:56

        Yeah.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath1:22:56

        I remember 'cause my dad used to take.

    20. RJRajeev Juneja1:22:58

        [laughs]

    21. GPG.V. Prasad1:22:58

        Liver health.

    22. NKNikhil Kamath1:22:59

        Right? Everybody-

    23. GPG.V. Prasad1:22:59

        It's a liver extract, actually.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath1:23:00

        Yeah. Like, back in the day, like 20 years ago, Liv.52 was everywhere.

    25. GPG.V. Prasad1:23:05

        Yeah.

    26. NKNikhil Kamath1:23:05

        That Himalaya's Liv.52.

    27. GPG.V. Prasad1:23:06

        My grandmother used to drink the syrup.

    28. NKNikhil Kamath1:23:08

        Yeah.

    29. GPG.V. Prasad1:23:09

        I used to think there was alcohol in it or something.

    30. NKNikhil Kamath1:23:10

        Yeah. Why is it so big? Why is it 30 billion? What are we missing? It's as big as the generic pharma industry of India, pharmaceutical industry of India.
16. 1:25:05 – 1:35:13

    The evidence, quality and standardisation debate around Ayurveda

    1. GPG.V. Prasad1:25:05

       I don't.

    2. NKNikhil Kamath1:25:05

       You don't?

    3. GPG.V. Prasad1:25:07

       I don't because, uh, as a company, we have committed to evidence, evidence-backed, uh, medicine.

    4. NKNikhil Kamath1:25:13

       Like turmeric and ginger.

    5. GPG.V. Prasad1:25:14

       Yeah, if we, if we, we've done trials with turmeric. We didn't see significant, uh-

    6. NKNikhil Kamath1:25:20

       Ginger

    7. GPG.V. Prasad1:25:20

       ... but yeah, those are maybe preventive, but anything as a medicine, I don't know. I, uh, we don't...

    8. NKNikhil Kamath1:25:26

       No, I'm not saying they work as a medicine, but-

    9. GPG.V. Prasad1:25:28

       Yeah

    10. NKNikhil Kamath1:25:28

        ... these guys are claiming that preventing the disease is more important than treating the disease.

    11. GPG.V. Prasad1:25:32

        Yeah, so is there any controlled trial which shows that this is better than not taking it?

    12. NKNikhil Kamath1:25:37

        Turmeric, no, it should be there, no?

    13. GPG.V. Prasad1:25:39

        It's all, you know, anecdotal.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath1:25:41

        Yeah?

    15. GPG.V. Prasad1:25:42

        Yeah. There's no controlled study.

    16. RJRajeev Juneja1:25:43

        So we, we, we sell and we believe

    17. NKNikhil Kamath1:25:45

        Right

    18. RJRajeev Juneja1:25:45

        We sell and we believe, actually. And, um-

    19. NKNikhil Kamath1:25:47

        Right. What are the products you sell?

    20. RJRajeev Juneja1:25:49

        We sh- Shilajit-

    21. NKNikhil Kamath1:25:50

        Mm

    22. RJRajeev Juneja1:25:51

        ... Ashwagandha-

    23. NKNikhil Kamath1:25:51

        Mm

    24. RJRajeev Juneja1:25:52

        ... and, uh, uterine tonics, right? They are Ayurvedic uterine tonics for liver.

    25. NKNikhil Kamath1:25:58

        Mm.

    26. RJRajeev Juneja1:25:59

        Lot of things we sell.

    27. NKNikhil Kamath1:26:00

        But what would you say when he says there's not enough evidence?

    28. GPG.V. Prasad1:26:03

        So the, the... I'm saying not enough evidence to back the claims that are being made.

    29. NKNikhil Kamath1:26:08

        I mean, see, I mean-

    30. GPG.V. Prasad1:26:09

        There's anecdotal evidence, there's history, there is-
17. 1:35:13 – 1:40:26

    The sexual-wellness opportunity and the stigma problem

    1. RJRajeev Juneja1:35:13

       Yeah.

    2. NKNikhil Kamath1:35:13

       And this-

    3. RJRajeev Juneja1:35:13

       Great market. Super market. Best market. Where Shilajit sells? Where Ashwa-

    4. NKNikhil Kamath1:35:18

       Actually, yeah, it's the same thing, yeah

    5. RJRajeev Juneja1:35:20

       ... Ashwagandha sells? Where it sells?

    6. NKNikhil Kamath1:35:21

       Isn't Ashwagandha for stress?

    7. RJRajeev Juneja1:35:23

       Uh.

    8. NKNikhil Kamath1:35:23

       Stress level.

    9. GPG.V. Prasad1:35:24

       Ashwagandha is for stress, yes.

    10. RJRajeev Juneja1:35:25

        Stress, no? Aphrodisiacs are requi- uh, uh, uh, it is being used as that.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath1:35:30

        What, what percentage is sexual wellness growing at?

    12. RJRajeev Juneja1:35:34

        Tremendous.

    13. NKNikhil Kamath1:35:35

        Yeah?

    14. RJRajeev Juneja1:35:35

        You cannot imagine.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath1:35:36

        Really?

    16. RJRajeev Juneja1:35:36

        Uh.

    17. GPG.V. Prasad1:35:37

        Yeah.

    18. NKNikhil Kamath1:35:37

        Yeah?

    19. RJRajeev Juneja1:35:37

        Maybe in this 17%, 30% would be even sexual wellness.

    20. GPG.V. Prasad1:35:41

        You know, you have a brand, right?

    21. RJRajeev Juneja1:35:42

        Yeah?

    22. GPG.V. Prasad1:35:43

        So you have a Viagra, I mean, this-

    23. RJRajeev Juneja1:35:44

        Manforce tablets.

    24. GPG.V. Prasad1:35:45

        Uh, yeah.

    25. RJRajeev Juneja1:35:45

        Yeah.

    26. GPG.V. Prasad1:35:45

        Manforce.

    27. RJRajeev Juneja1:35:46

        Yeah.

    28. GPG.V. Prasad1:35:46

        It's a big seller.

    29. RJRajeev Juneja1:35:48

        Yeah.

    30. NKNikhil Kamath1:35:48

        Is it Viagra or Cialis?
18. 1:40:26 – 1:43:45

    The fertility, IVF and egg-freezing opportunity

    1. NKNikhil Kamath1:40:26

       Yeah. I was seeing the numbers of fertility businesses, like people-

    2. RJRajeev Juneja1:40:30

       Huge yeah

    3. NKNikhil Kamath1:40:30

       ... trying to conceive a baby. Even that is growing like mad.

    4. GPG.V. Prasad1:40:33

       It's growing like crazy.

    5. RJRajeev Juneja1:40:34

       We acquired one company-

    6. NKNikhil Kamath1:40:36

       Uh

    7. RJRajeev Juneja1:40:36

       ... Bharat, uh, BSV.

    8. NKNikhil Kamath1:40:38

       Uh.

    9. RJRajeev Juneja1:40:38

       That company is specialist in this one.

    10. NKNikhil Kamath1:40:40

        Fertility.

    11. GPG.V. Prasad1:40:41

        Sex hormones.

    12. NKNikhil Kamath1:40:41

        IVF.

    13. RJRajeev Juneja1:40:42

        IVF, yeah.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath1:40:43

        And even like women who want to have children later in life, that seed... What is that called? Egg, uh, storing-

    15. GPG.V. Prasad1:40:50

        Freezing

    16. NKNikhil Kamath1:40:50

        ... freezing eggs.

    17. GPG.V. Prasad1:40:51

        Yeah.

    18. NKNikhil Kamath1:40:51

        That's also growing like crazy. I have so many friends of my own telling me-

    19. GPG.V. Prasad1:40:54

        Because people are getting married later in life-

    20. NKNikhil Kamath1:40:56

        Yeah

    21. GPG.V. Prasad1:40:56

        ... and priorities-

    22. RJRajeev Juneja1:40:58

        It's all-

    23. GPG.V. Prasad1:40:58

        ... career priorities

    24. RJRajeev Juneja1:40:59

        ... there's a reason for that.

    25. NKNikhil Kamath1:41:00

        Mm.

    26. RJRajeev Juneja1:41:00

        Education, urbanization, women coming in jobs, late marriages, career first, and I'll seek kids later on.

    27. NKNikhil Kamath1:41:10

        Yeah.

    28. RJRajeev Juneja1:41:11

        And at that particular time, I mean, after 30-

    29. NKNikhil Kamath1:41:14

        Mm

    30. RJRajeev Juneja1:41:15

        ... that, I mean, f- uh, fer- body is not that, that much fertile.
19. 1:43:45 – 1:50:54

    The API narrative debate and how a drug is synthesised

    1. GPG.V. Prasad1:43:45

       Sure. Uh, start with API, active pharmaceutical ingredient.

    2. NKNikhil Kamath1:43:49

       Okay.

    3. GPG.V. Prasad1:43:50

       That's an organic compound mostly-

    4. NKNikhil Kamath1:43:52

       Yeah

    5. GPG.V. Prasad1:43:52

       ... but sometimes inorganics can also be there.

    6. NKNikhil Kamath1:43:54

       Uh.

    7. GPG.V. Prasad1:43:54

       Which is actually the part of the medicine that is active in your body. So that's why it's called active pharmaceutical ingredient. When, when people say ... I don't un- I have zero knowledge. Idiot. Sure. Like, absolutely. No, no, ask me. I'll tell you. When people say API industry is controlled by China, India doesn't have it, what do they mean? I don't agree with them. I think the Chinese are much more low cost than India- Right ... uh, due to a variety of reasons. Right. But on the front end, they are not that good. But can we make API- I think Indian com- ... without China? Today, uh, feel, we could do it. Right. We have all the capabilities to do it. Right. But the economics dictate that I buy and I don't make it. That is what I was saying. Most of the time. Mm. The economics, it's easier for me to buy, uh, an, an intermediate and then- But if tomorrow China stops supplying? We can make it. Yeah? Most technologies, uh, exist in India. At scale? At scale. As required? We used to make them before the Chinese were there. Mm. So I don't see the technology as a limitation. We used to make it, but China came in. Uh. Then China brought the prices down because we could not protect. I mean, for example, look at this intermed- intermediates, right? China does not give. If, for example, like take the example of antibiotics only. Mm. A lot of antibiotics are there. Mm. In the absence of Chinese supply, we can come into a crisis. India will make it. They're already making it now. Penicillin- At that level? Cephal... Uh, even- At that level? Yeah. And can you use the same infrastructure? We were making, so we were making these penicillins before China was making them. Yeah. So I don't think it's a question of capability. It's just a question of our focus. No, the question basically is, what the question should be asked is why did we stop making? Because it's cheaper to buy. Correct. Yeah. So, and I would not, uh, criticize that. Right. There is no need of national security on this. It is- It's availability, you buy it. They can't, if the availability is not there, you make it. It takes some- But now, now this is a national security. Pardon me? Now it is a national security. I don't agree with that. I, I mean, that's a point of view, uh, always, but I feel we are f- pursuing the value chain. We are capturing more value from these products. We, we don't see the Chinese competitors in the finished products anywhere, including emerging markets, uh, where they should be strong. They can- We are selling in China. It's a global world. Why are we saying in national security, supply? No more global world now. Yeah. In COVID time- [laughs] I'm telling you this, in COVID time, we had more reliable supplies from China than from Indian companies. So what is this thing about national security, API controlling by them? This is all a narrative I don't believe in. Do you believe it in batteries and energy and all of that? Maybe, because there's supply there. Right. There is, um, you know, source of raw materials which we may not have. Right. And that is strategic, and they've threatened to control it. Yeah. But in API, there's no control, there's no threatening. There's, it's all available. Commerce is smooth. And if China stops tomorrow, we can ... Why would China stop tomorrow? Let me ask you that question. Like China threatened US on radar. Same logic. Yeah, but they're still supplying. But for a while it was- They supply, there's, there's- ... it was negotiation. Yeah. I mean, that's common in global politics. Yeah. If you bully and I w- you want to be the only bully in town, they're gonna ... You'll be bullied back. So that's what happened to the US. It's like saying food security. Yeah. Like, should we import all of our fertilizers? No. Or should we have capacity? Yeah, I mean, but we are not importing all the pharmaceuticals that we need from China. That is not a narrative. APIs? No. API, we make a lot of APIs. Yeah? India is a big exporter of APIs. In fact, the competition is severe among Indian companies. It's not the Chinese which are competing with us. So where does a- Chinese are in a big different league, actually. Chinese want to basically have huge profits. Right. So why should they spend their lot of energy- We are going into the violation ... in this kind of- Right. They will sell biologics. Mm. But yes, it's a national security issue now. Even biologics, I'll tell you this, even biologics, I'll tell you this, they need us to sell the product. They need Indian, uh, companies or Western companies, more Western companies than Indian company, to sell the product. But tell me this as a very, very layman. Yeah. Like somebody who knows nothing. When you say organic compound, I'm still confused. Okay. It's like, um, you take simple molecules like starting materials, which are called, uh, basic organic chemicals. Okay. Then you react them to get a more complex compound. That's an intermediate. Then you combine some intermediates to get the final product. Okay. That is the API. And then once- The final product is the API ... API, yeah. And the API has to be at a very high pure, uh, purity level. Mm. It should have impurities below threshold. I know eating paracetamol. Where does API come before- Okay, paracetamol- It goes into my mouth ... paracetamol is the API. Okay. The tablet you're using it contains 500 mg of, uh, paracetamol and a few other binders and other things which make it deliver the paracetamol in your body at the right place. Okay. So that's the formulation. Formulation is what we talked about so far, the pharmaceutical industry. For example, when you take a paracetamol tablet- Mm ... the weight is not 500 milligram. Correct. The weight is more than that. It's the product, yeah. These are excipients. Yeah. Inactives. Inactive. Yeah. Right. Active is the paracetamol. Right. Paracetamol actually chemically is para-aminophenol reacting with acetic anhydride. Paracetamol is a s- Right ... short form of it. Moxifloxacin, cefixime, ciprofloxacin. So I, I'll, I'll give you the synthesis of paracetamol. I don't know if it's going to be accurate. Yeah. You start with n- something like nitrobenzene or something, reduce it to make, uh, uh, aminophenol, and then you acetylate it. That becomes paracetamol. Right. So the three, four reactions involved. Finally, you purify it and formulate it. So the powder that we sell as a chemical is paracetamol. And that's the API? That is the API. Okay. Yeah. So like that, you have ibuprofen, you have ampicillin. Those are all APIs. APIs. Okay. The active ingredients. Okay. Now, biologic product is much bigger. These are the bi- Okay, after API, biologics. Yeah. These are synthetic. In terms of ingredients. These are synthetic. Yeah. API is synthetic. Yeah. These. Synthesis. Synthesis. We call it synthesis. Synthesis, yeah. Organic synthesis. Um, these are smaller molecules. Uh- Biologics? No, the APIs that you're talking about. Okay, small molecules. They are smaller molecules. They're called small molecules, bulk drugs, APIs, all these various terms are used. Okay. Raw material. So basically, that is a, um, um, molecular weight will be at most 1,000, 2,000 is the highest limit.

    8. NKNikhil Kamath1:50:16

       Mm.

    9. GPG.V. Prasad1:50:16

       Around 1,000 is the-

    10. NKNikhil Kamath1:50:18

        Mm

    11. GPG.V. Prasad1:50:18

        ... thing. After a certain, uh, size, they become large.

    12. NKNikhil Kamath1:50:22

        Mm.

    13. GPG.V. Prasad1:50:23

        And they're synthesised by living cells.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath1:50:25

        Mm.

    15. GPG.V. Prasad1:50:26

        So what you do is you, um, develop specialised cells-

    16. NKNikhil Kamath1:50:32

        Mm

    17. GPG.V. Prasad1:50:32

        ... which make the ingredient that you want. B- biological systems. It's not... Synthesis is like Lego blocks. You're attaching molecules.

    18. NKNikhil Kamath1:50:41

        So API is a Lego block?

    19. GPG.V. Prasad1:50:42

        Yeah.

    20. NKNikhil Kamath1:50:43

        And under 2000 whatever okay.

    21. GPG.V. Prasad1:50:44

        You put a, you put, you know what? You Lego block two, three, four smaller, uh, Lego things, you get a bigger one.

    22. NKNikhil Kamath1:50:48

        But its size is four.

    23. GPG.V. Prasad1:50:49

        Yeah. Size-

    24. NKNikhil Kamath1:50:50

        Maximum four blocks, just for example.

    25. GPG.V. Prasad1:50:51

        Maybe, yeah, four, five, 10, whatever.

    26. NKNikhil Kamath1:50:52

        You said 1,000, 2,000.

20. 1:50:54 – 1:55:57

    Biologics, monoclonal antibodies and vaccines explained

    1. GPG.V. Prasad1:50:54

       Yeah, whatever. But here, it's a living body, living cell, living, uh, cell-

    2. NKNikhil Kamath1:50:58

       In biologics

    3. GPG.V. Prasad1:50:59

       ... biologics, which you inject a clone-

    4. NKNikhil Kamath1:51:03

       Mm

    5. GPG.V. Prasad1:51:04

       ... to produce a certain product. And it could be as simple, uh, th- there are different kind of cells to make the size more complicated.

    6. NKNikhil Kamath1:51:11

       But this is interesting. When you say inject a clone, what do you mean?

    7. GPG.V. Prasad1:51:54

       You, you take a sample of DNA-

    8. NKNikhil Kamath1:51:56

       Uh

    9. GPG.V. Prasad1:51:57

       ... and you m- m- modify it. It's called-

    10. NKNikhil Kamath1:51:59

        Yeah

    11. GPG.V. Prasad1:51:59

        ... recombinant DNA-

    12. NKNikhil Kamath1:52:01

        Okay

    13. GPG.V. Prasad1:52:01

        ... to tell your cells-

    14. NKNikhil Kamath1:52:04

        Yeah

    15. GPG.V. Prasad1:52:04

        ... to produce this.

    16. NKNikhil Kamath1:52:05

        Right

    17. GPG.V. Prasad1:52:06

        ... which is your, um, done. I don't know. [laughs]

    18. NKNikhil Kamath1:52:09

        Try, try some, no?

    19. GPG.V. Prasad1:52:09

        That's a lot of food. I can't have this.

    20. NKNikhil Kamath1:52:11

        No, just try a little bit.

    21. GPG.V. Prasad1:52:12

        No, okay. Um, and then, um, the, uh, cell-

    22. NKNikhil Kamath1:52:16

        Uh

    23. GPG.V. Prasad1:52:17

        ... you grow the cell, you multiply the cells.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath1:52:19

        Thanks.

    25. GPG.V. Prasad1:52:19

        You feed it-

    26. NKNikhil Kamath1:52:20

        Uh

    27. GPG.V. Prasad1:52:21

        ... uh, glucose or whatever to grow, multiply the cells.

    28. NKNikhil Kamath1:52:25

        Cell is like a real living thing?

    29. GPG.V. Prasad1:52:27

        Yeah, it's a living, uh, unit.

    30. NKNikhil Kamath1:52:29

        Where does that come from?
21. 1:55:57 – 2:00:06

    Stem cells and peptides, separating therapy from hype

    1. GPG.V. Prasad1:55:57

       Stem cells-

    2. NKNikhil Kamath1:55:57

       ... peptides? I've, I recently-

    3. GPG.V. Prasad1:55:59

       Okay

    4. NKNikhil Kamath1:55:59

       ... got a lot of stem cells.

    5. GPG.V. Prasad1:56:01

       Stem cells-

    6. NKNikhil Kamath1:56:01

       And the doctor told me it's from some umbilical cord or something like that.

    7. GPG.V. Prasad1:56:04

       Yeah, yeah. Stem cells-

    8. NKNikhil Kamath1:56:05

       In another country where it's legal

    9. GPG.V. Prasad1:56:06

       ... are a special kind of cells. They can take, they can become any part of your- Body-

    10. NKNikhil Kamath1:56:12

        Mm

    11. GPG.V. Prasad1:56:12

        ... when they can, they can become muscle, they can become bone, they become skin, they can become your organs. So they're like magic.

    12. NKNikhil Kamath1:56:22

        And when they say, say they're from donor embryo, umbilical cord, what do they mean?

    13. GPG.V. Prasad1:56:26

        It means stem cells are not everywhere. We won't have s- stem cells.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath1:56:30

        Right.

    15. GPG.V. Prasad1:56:30

        Stem cells are when newly born children, they have them in the umbilical cord. The mother produces-

    16. NKNikhil Kamath1:56:36

        Right

    17. GPG.V. Prasad1:56:37

        ... the stem cells by which this body, nature is produced, right?

    18. NKNikhil Kamath1:56:40

        Right.

    19. GPG.V. Prasad1:56:41

        So the stem cells are there in the cord that is attached-

    20. NKNikhil Kamath1:56:46

        Right

    21. GPG.V. Prasad1:56:46

        ... to the mother and between the mother and the child.

    22. NKNikhil Kamath1:56:49

        So they-

    23. GPG.V. Prasad1:56:49

        So that is stem cell rich, so they harvest the stem cells from-

    24. NKNikhil Kamath1:56:53

        And you can get unlimited stem cells from one umbilical cord?

    25. GPG.V. Prasad1:56:55

        No, no. You can, you can multiply the stem cells once you isolate them. You can grow them. The origin is the, uh, umbilical cord. From there, you can multiply it.

    26. NKNikhil Kamath1:57:09

        So my question is, one umbilical cord-

    27. GPG.V. Prasad1:57:11

        Mm

    28. NKNikhil Kamath1:57:11

        ... can have enough stem cells because of multiplication for thousands of people?

    29. GPG.V. Prasad1:57:14

        There must be some limit to that, because-

    30. NKNikhil Kamath1:57:16

        Right
22. 2:00:06 – 2:05:01

    The semaglutide story and how GLP-1 works

    1. GPG.V. Prasad2:00:06

       So semaglutide is a peptide. Tirzepatide, which is Mounjaro, is also a peptide.

    2. NKNikhil Kamath2:00:11

       This is a big one. Semaglutide, what is the story? Like what has... It's like the whole world has changed. I have heard 10 friends of mine who want to start business in GLP-1.

    3. GPG.V. Prasad2:00:20

       Mm.

    4. NKNikhil Kamath2:00:21

       What is it?

    5. RJRajeev Juneja2:00:23

       So they'll start the business in GLP-1?

    6. NKNikhil Kamath2:00:25

       Uh.

    7. RJRajeev Juneja2:00:25

       How? What they want to do? They want to sell this product?

    8. NKNikhil Kamath2:00:27

       Yeah.

    9. RJRajeev Juneja2:00:28

       Again, I tell you one, tell you what-

    10. GPG.V. Prasad2:00:29

        It's a, it's a prescription product. You can't sell it

    11. RJRajeev Juneja2:00:31

        ... I mean, see, see, forget-

    12. NKNikhil Kamath2:00:32

        No, no, they'll build, like, marketing around it and create a brand

    13. RJRajeev Juneja2:00:34

        ... forget the business.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath2:00:35

        Uh.

    15. RJRajeev Juneja2:00:35

        Uh, forget the prescription.

    16. NKNikhil Kamath2:00:37

        Uh.

    17. RJRajeev Juneja2:00:37

        I mean, how many people are using it versus how many people are abusing it?

    18. NKNikhil Kamath2:00:42

        Is what-

    19. RJRajeev Juneja2:00:43

        So whenever a product becomes super hit-

    20. NKNikhil Kamath2:00:45

        Mm

    21. RJRajeev Juneja2:00:46

        ... right, it is being abused.

    22. NKNikhil Kamath2:00:47

        Correct. Mm.

    23. RJRajeev Juneja2:00:48

        I won't. If patient forces a doctor-

    24. NKNikhil Kamath2:00:52

        Mm

    25. RJRajeev Juneja2:00:53

        ... he say, "No, "" then it really happens. But just imagine, if you take-

    26. GPG.V. Prasad2:00:58

        I think, uh, you asked the very question, where did this come from?

    27. NKNikhil Kamath2:01:01

        Mm.

    28. GPG.V. Prasad2:01:02

        This is a good question to ask. This is a product which your body produces, actually.

    29. NKNikhil Kamath2:01:07

        Mm.

    30. GPG.V. Prasad2:01:07

        GLP, not GLP-1, GL- not glucagon-like peptide-
23. 2:05:01 – 2:08:06

    Mankind's ethical-selling philosophy on GLP-1

    1. RJRajeev Juneja2:05:01

       We start with this. Not, not, don't, we don't end with this, number one. Number second-

    2. GPG.V. Prasad2:05:05

       Hmm

    3. RJRajeev Juneja2:05:06

       ... just remember, at the time of gold rush, who made the maximum money?

    4. GPG.V. Prasad2:05:10

       The guys who sold the axes.

    5. RJRajeev Juneja2:05:11

       Those who run for-

    6. GPG.V. Prasad2:05:12

       Hmm

    7. RJRajeev Juneja2:05:13

       ... gold or who basically sell the ancillaries?

    8. NKNikhil Kamath2:05:16

       Right.

    9. RJRajeev Juneja2:05:17

       Correct?

    10. GPG.V. Prasad2:05:17

        Hmm.

    11. RJRajeev Juneja2:05:18

        So what our philosophy is, along with this, our focus would be on supplements. I mean, this would be front end, but actually we will be selling the complete lifestyle.

    12. NKNikhil Kamath2:05:31

        Protein.

    13. RJRajeev Juneja2:05:32

        Protein, supplements, vitamins, other requirements. The complete, I mean, chain, the ecosystem we have created for this particular division. That's our concept. And again, I tell you honestly, in pharma industry, nobody talks side effects. One of my friend once told me-

    14. GPG.V. Prasad2:05:48

        I, I, I beg to disagree on that.

    15. RJRajeev Juneja2:05:50

        Ah.

    16. GPG.V. Prasad2:05:50

        I ... and you're painting in a very broad way-

    17. RJRajeev Juneja2:05:52

        No, I, I didn't

    18. GPG.V. Prasad2:05:52

        ... of pharma industry.

    19. RJRajeev Juneja2:05:54

        But I, I'm not-

    20. GPG.V. Prasad2:05:54

        I think we all are bound by the-

    21. RJRajeev Juneja2:05:56

        No, no, you write down-

    22. GPG.V. Prasad2:05:57

        ... ethics of running a-

    23. RJRajeev Juneja2:05:58

        You, you write down-

    24. GPG.V. Prasad2:05:58

        ... prescription-driven business.

    25. RJRajeev Juneja2:06:00

        Please don't take it personally. [laughs] But you know-

    26. GPG.V. Prasad2:06:02

        Not personally. I mean, you said the industry.

    27. RJRajeev Juneja2:06:04

        No, I'm, I'm-

    28. GPG.V. Prasad2:06:04

        That's why I'm-

    29. RJRajeev Juneja2:06:05

        No, I'm telling you

    30. GPG.V. Prasad2:06:05

        ... protecting that. That we don't do that.
24. 2:08:06 – 2:15:07

    Why India leads in small molecules but lags in biologics

    1. GPG.V. Prasad2:08:06

       our industry is a ethical industry. By and large, 100% of the top 10 companies don't do anything wrong, is my view. Uh, I have not seen this. I mean, I, I also go and talk to doctors. I go and see them. There are small companies. This is a very large industry. Hundreds and thousands of companies are there who, you know, may be doing many things wrong. But as a-

    2. NKNikhil Kamath2:08:25

       But you have 10,000 reps. How do you know what each person is saying?

    3. GPG.V. Prasad2:08:28

       We monitor them, and if a doctor complains ... And we do get complaints. It's not that everybody is ethical. They, we get, we get written complaints saying, "Your doc- your med- med rep said this. He shouldn't have said it." I said, "Let's call him. Try." If we know, we won't keep quiet.

    4. NKNikhil Kamath2:08:43

       Hmm. Okay. More importantly, what is the business opportunity here?

    5. GPG.V. Prasad2:08:48

       Yeah, let me ... You started with peptides-

    6. NKNikhil Kamath2:08:50

       Yeah

    7. GPG.V. Prasad2:08:50

       ... and then went off into-

    8. NKNikhil Kamath2:08:51

       GLP

    9. GPG.V. Prasad2:08:52

       ... GLP-1s.

    10. NKNikhil Kamath2:08:52

        Uh.

    11. GPG.V. Prasad2:08:52

        Peptides are many things, not just GLP-1s.

    12. NKNikhil Kamath2:08:54

        Yeah.

    13. GPG.V. Prasad2:08:54

        There are many peptides. And now since you're into very, big into fitness-

    14. NKNikhil Kamath2:08:58

        Yeah

    15. GPG.V. Prasad2:08:59

        ... there's a whole wave of peptides-

    16. NKNikhil Kamath2:09:01

        Uh

    17. GPG.V. Prasad2:09:01

        ... being marketed-

    18. NKNikhil Kamath2:09:02

        Yeah

    19. GPG.V. Prasad2:09:02

        ... uh, to young people.

    20. NKNikhil Kamath2:09:03

        For sleep.

    21. GPG.V. Prasad2:09:04

        Yeah, for sleep, for-

    22. NKNikhil Kamath2:09:05

        Sleep protocol, GHKcu.

    23. GPG.V. Prasad2:09:07

        Everything, yeah.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath2:09:07

        Copper peptide.

    25. GPG.V. Prasad2:09:09

        Yeah, yeah.

    26. NKNikhil Kamath2:09:09

        I'm taking one or two. Yes.

    27. GPG.V. Prasad2:09:10

        Yeah.

    28. NKNikhil Kamath2:09:11

        Hmm.

    29. GPG.V. Prasad2:09:11

        Um. [laughs]

    30. NKNikhil Kamath2:09:13

        [laughs]
25. 2:15:07 – 2:23:38

    Where a young founder can enter the GLP-1 wave

    1. GPG.V. Prasad2:15:07

       See, if-

    2. NKNikhil Kamath2:15:08

       Can I start a GLP-1 distribution business? Start a brand? I'll buy it from you, I'll buy it from you. I'll do marketing, I'll find-

    3. GPG.V. Prasad2:15:15

       You know, what you could do is have everyday counseling for a guy who's on a GLP-1. GLP-1 is everyday problem if you're on the GLP-1.

    4. NKNikhil Kamath2:15:23

       Yeah?

    5. GPG.V. Prasad2:15:23

       Yeah. It's, uh-

    6. NKNikhil Kamath2:15:24

       Right

    7. GPG.V. Prasad2:15:24

       ... it causes bloating, it causes, uh-

    8. NKNikhil Kamath2:15:27

       So like a app that counsels people who are taking GLP-1?

    9. GPG.V. Prasad2:15:30

       App or even, you know, human-to-human counseling. Um-

    10. NKNikhil Kamath2:15:34

        You don't need to be a doctor to counsel?

    11. GPG.V. Prasad2:15:36

        No. You can be a nutritionist, you can be a fitness-

    12. NKNikhil Kamath2:15:39

        What if I find two fat people who became thin? I have a friend in mind.

    13. GPG.V. Prasad2:15:43

        Yeah.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath2:15:44

        And they start a brand of GLP-1. I'm buying the-

    15. GPG.V. Prasad2:15:47

        Mm-hmm

    16. NKNikhil Kamath2:15:47

        ... product from you guys.

    17. GPG.V. Prasad2:15:49

        That is gone. That, that-

    18. NKNikhil Kamath2:15:50

        Yeah?

    19. GPG.V. Prasad2:15:50

        ... that is already mainstream now.

    20. NKNikhil Kamath2:15:53

        Yeah?

    21. GPG.V. Prasad2:15:53

        Yeah.

    22. NKNikhil Kamath2:15:55

        Hmm. But I do great advertising.

    23. RJRajeev Juneja2:15:56

        See, if you, if you basically, I mean, see, you give example that this GLP has done this.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath2:16:00

        Hmm.

    25. RJRajeev Juneja2:16:01

        But 20 brands are there of GLP.

    26. GPG.V. Prasad2:16:03

        [laughs] They're already in there.

    27. RJRajeev Juneja2:16:04

        20 good companies are giving goods. What is the company's name of yours? Your friend's? Nothing is there. That's the point. On the contrary, I mean, this is the time when this, there's, I mean, a wave of GLP which is going on.

    28. NKNikhil Kamath2:16:18

        Hmm.

    29. RJRajeev Juneja2:16:18

        People want to cut down their weight.

    30. NKNikhil Kamath2:16:21

        Hmm.
26. 2:23:38 – 2:29:05

    The yin and yang of innovators and generics

    1. GPG.V. Prasad2:23:38

       No, you can't do it in India. There's a grandfa- there's a rule in the US that if there is a shortage-

    2. NKNikhil Kamath2:23:42

       Hmm

    3. GPG.V. Prasad2:23:43

       ... you can ... the pharmacist can compound it.

    4. NKNikhil Kamath2:23:46

       Another question.

    5. GPG.V. Prasad2:23:47

       Hmm.

    6. NKNikhil Kamath2:23:48

       If you guys are operating at 20 to 25% EBITDA, which is quite high-

    7. GPG.V. Prasad2:23:53

       Hmm

    8. NKNikhil Kamath2:23:54

       ... why doesn't the ... Like you were talking about my chain.

    9. GPG.V. Prasad2:23:57

       Mm.

    10. NKNikhil Kamath2:23:57

        Why doesn't the yin, the guy putting in the money to research-

    11. GPG.V. Prasad2:24:01

        Hmm

    12. NKNikhil Kamath2:24:02

        ... take over this profit center himself?

    13. GPG.V. Prasad2:24:05

        So in many countries they do. So I'll tell you the yin and yang in what context I told you that.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath2:24:09

        Hmm.

    15. GPG.V. Prasad2:24:10

        The, the innovator is making, is spending billions of dollars s- de- developing a product, launching it globally, and making a lot of money-

    16. NKNikhil Kamath2:24:19

        Right

    17. GPG.V. Prasad2:24:20

        ... through a monopoly rights.

    18. NKNikhil Kamath2:24:22

        Right.

    19. GPG.V. Prasad2:24:22

        Patent rights give him monopoly rights for extended periods of time. Usually, it's less than 10 years after accounting for all the time it takes and develop. Seven years, eight years. And the profits are massive. They're, they're selling at, you know-

    20. NKNikhil Kamath2:24:34

        Hmm

    21. GPG.V. Prasad2:24:34

        ... huge prices.

    22. NKNikhil Kamath2:24:35

        Hmm.

    23. GPG.V. Prasad2:24:37

        And that is the innovator's business.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath2:24:38

        Mm.

    25. GPG.V. Prasad2:24:38

        So he keeps on innovating and then doing. As a generic company, our approach is to get the patent life as short as possible.

    26. NKNikhil Kamath2:24:46

        Hmm.

    27. GPG.V. Prasad2:24:46

        So we'll find a loophole to get in early, challenge the patents, and say, "They are not valid patents."

    28. NKNikhil Kamath2:24:50

        Hmm.

    29. GPG.V. Prasad2:24:51

        So we fight that.

    30. NKNikhil Kamath2:24:52

        Hmm.
27. 2:29:05 – 2:37:18

    Diagnostics, CDMO and the China-plus-one opportunity

    1. NKNikhil Kamath2:29:05

       There are 1 in 28 unicorns in India today. There is one in pharma drug innovation, which is called Mol- Molbio.

    2. RJRajeev Juneja2:29:13

       Molbio?

    3. NKNikhil Kamath2:29:14

       Yeah.

    4. RJRajeev Juneja2:29:15

       Hmm?

    5. NKNikhil Kamath2:29:17

       Huh? Testing kits. Testing kit.

    6. GPG.V. Prasad2:29:20

       They're diagnostic company.

    7. RJRajeev Juneja2:29:21

       Diagnostic company, yeah.

    8. NKNikhil Kamath2:29:21

       That's not even-

    9. GPG.V. Prasad2:29:23

       Yeah.

    10. NKNikhil Kamath2:29:24

        It's not in the same-

    11. GPG.V. Prasad2:29:25

        Yeah, but you know, you do, you ... I- it is innovative what they did.

    12. NKNikhil Kamath2:29:28

        Mm-hmm.

    13. GPG.V. Prasad2:29:29

        The, the diagnostics they developed were, uh, much, much better and easier to, uh, you know, it, it's tailored for the Indian market.

    14. RJRajeev Juneja2:29:37

        I mean, if you just look at this, uh, you're talking about the R&D side in India.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath2:29:41

        Mm-hmm.

    16. RJRajeev Juneja2:29:41

        Why companies are spending less? Because we are now coming to the cusp of that place where p- companies have become a bit serious.

    17. NKNikhil Kamath2:29:50

        Mm-hmm.

    18. RJRajeev Juneja2:29:51

        Why so? Because slowly and gradually what basically is happening, government side-

    19. NKNikhil Kamath2:29:56

        Mm-hmm

    20. RJRajeev Juneja2:29:56

        ... from government side, regulatory is becoming a bit stringent.

    21. NKNikhil Kamath2:29:59

        Right.

    22. RJRajeev Juneja2:30:01

        More regulatory will become stringent. Uh, so naturally one day would come when every company, man- factory would be manufacturing a quality product.

    23. NKNikhil Kamath2:30:11

        Right.

    24. RJRajeev Juneja2:30:12

        Then the kind of advantage a branded company-

    25. NKNikhil Kamath2:30:15

        Mm-hmm

    26. RJRajeev Juneja2:30:16

        ... has, like I said, top 50 companies have more than 75% market share.

    27. NKNikhil Kamath2:30:22

        Mm-hmm.

    28. RJRajeev Juneja2:30:22

        Will lose that gleam.

    29. NKNikhil Kamath2:30:24

        Right.

    30. RJRajeev Juneja2:30:25

        Because why some patient goes to a branded company-
28. 2:37:18 – 2:43:01

    Applying AI to pharma and the expired-medicine problem

    1. GPG.V. Prasad2:37:18

       still opportunity here. I, I think we have, we haven't figured out-

    2. NKNikhil Kamath2:37:21

       Mm

    3. GPG.V. Prasad2:37:21

       ... because we have our lens of large company, large size-

    4. NKNikhil Kamath2:37:24

       Mm

    5. GPG.V. Prasad2:37:25

       ... revenue streams. You talked a lot about AI everywhere.

    6. RJRajeev Juneja2:37:28

       I tell you honestly, one, one thing which always haunts me-

    7. GPG.V. Prasad2:37:31

       Let me finish the AI part.

    8. RJRajeev Juneja2:37:32

       Yeah, you go ahead.

    9. GPG.V. Prasad2:37:33

       So the, the AI part-

    10. NKNikhil Kamath2:37:34

        Mm

    11. GPG.V. Prasad2:37:35

        ... is a big deal for us.

    12. NKNikhil Kamath2:37:36

        Mm.

    13. GPG.V. Prasad2:37:37

        And we are not equipped to do it.

    14. NKNikhil Kamath2:37:39

        Mm.

    15. GPG.V. Prasad2:37:39

        Whether it's in our sales force management, targeting doctors, all of that can be-

    16. NKNikhil Kamath2:37:43

        Mm

    17. GPG.V. Prasad2:37:43

        ... driven much more efficiently through a- agents and things like that.

    18. NKNikhil Kamath2:37:47

        Mm.

    19. GPG.V. Prasad2:37:48

        Our processes, R&D processes can improve.

    20. NKNikhil Kamath2:37:51

        Mm.

    21. GPG.V. Prasad2:37:51

        Now we are able to do, uh, in silico experiments.

    22. NKNikhil Kamath2:37:55

        Mm.

    23. GPG.V. Prasad2:37:55

        In silico organoids. These are all areas where there can be services to pharma, which we don't have the capabilities to do.

    24. NKNikhil Kamath2:38:04

        Mm.

    25. GPG.V. Prasad2:38:04

        And we can't attract the talent.

    26. NKNikhil Kamath2:38:06

        Mm.

    27. GPG.V. Prasad2:38:06

        Because, uh, a smart AI guy doesn't want to work for a, uh, you know, pharmaceutical company.

    28. NKNikhil Kamath2:38:12

        So you would be willing to outsource that?

    29. GPG.V. Prasad2:38:15

        It's actually a more than outsource. It's really a core process for us-

    30. NKNikhil Kamath2:38:18

        Mm
29. 2:43:01 – 2:45:30

    Why founders should never copy a set formula

    1. NKNikhil Kamath2:43:01

       Anything else that you can think of for somebody young to start or think about?

    2. RJRajeev Juneja2:43:08

       You see, I, I tell you honestly, I mean, when people start the business, the problem is what? They copy a set formula-

    3. NKNikhil Kamath2:43:17

       Mm-hmm

    4. RJRajeev Juneja2:43:17

       ... that this is the way these companies have become successful, and that is totally wrong.

    5. NKNikhil Kamath2:43:24

       Mm.

    6. RJRajeev Juneja2:43:24

       Never, ever follow a set formula.

    7. NKNikhil Kamath2:43:27

       Mm.

    8. RJRajeev Juneja2:43:27

       Example I gave you. Uh-

    9. NKNikhil Kamath2:43:29

       You can eat here. It's fine.

    10. GPG.V. Prasad2:43:31

        I'll eat it there. I'll keep it.

    11. NKNikhil Kamath2:43:33

        Mm.

    12. RJRajeev Juneja2:43:33

        The set formula was-

    13. NKNikhil Kamath2:43:34

        Mm

    14. RJRajeev Juneja2:43:35

        ... launch all India.

    15. NKNikhil Kamath2:43:36

        Mm.

    16. RJRajeev Juneja2:43:37

        We said, "No, only western UP."

    17. NKNikhil Kamath2:43:41

        Mm.

    18. RJRajeev Juneja2:43:42

        Proof of concept in western UP.

    19. NKNikhil Kamath2:43:44

        Mm. Mm.

    20. RJRajeev Juneja2:43:45

        Then expand slowly, gradually. So idea of following somebody's set formula is always wrong.

    21. NKNikhil Kamath2:43:53

        Mm.

    22. RJRajeev Juneja2:43:53

        I say launch in a city.

    23. NKNikhil Kamath2:43:55

        Mm.

    24. RJRajeev Juneja2:43:57

        Very less risk.

    25. GPG.V. Prasad2:43:57

        That's a, that's a good lesson.

    26. NKNikhil Kamath2:43:58

        Yeah?

    27. RJRajeev Juneja2:43:59

        Very good lesson.

    28. GPG.V. Prasad2:43:59

        [laughs]

    29. RJRajeev Juneja2:44:00

        See, I mean-

    30. GPG.V. Prasad2:44:01

        For us entrepreneurs
30. 2:45:30 – 2:51:06

    Succession, home diagnostics and the microfluidics frontier

    1. NKNikhil Kamath2:45:30

       If you had to ask your kids to join your business or to build something similar, would you?

    2. GPG.V. Prasad2:45:36

       I would ask them to learn the business.

    3. NKNikhil Kamath2:45:39

       Mm.

    4. GPG.V. Prasad2:45:40

       And the business is of a much larger size-

    5. NKNikhil Kamath2:45:44

       Mm

    6. GPG.V. Prasad2:45:44

       ... than they will be able to, uh, you know-

    7. RJRajeev Juneja2:45:47

       Right

    8. GPG.V. Prasad2:45:47

       ... run until they're in the business for a decade, and I don't think they have that kind of patience.

    9. RJRajeev Juneja2:45:52

       In my, in my case, one of my son is in diagnostic business.

    10. GPG.V. Prasad2:45:55

        Mm.

    11. RJRajeev Juneja2:45:56

        The second has been put on the R&D side.

    12. GPG.V. Prasad2:45:58

        Mm.

    13. RJRajeev Juneja2:45:58

        I know my priorities. If I say that next, uh, focus area of ours would be R&D, so I'm putting my bets over there.

    14. GPG.V. Prasad2:46:08

        Mm.

    15. RJRajeev Juneja2:46:09

        And diagnostics, because going forward, I mean, this is gonna play a big role.

    16. NKNikhil Kamath2:46:13

        Diagnostics?

    17. RJRajeev Juneja2:46:14

        Mm.

    18. NKNikhil Kamath2:46:14

        Yeah?

    19. RJRajeev Juneja2:46:15

        Home diagnostics.

    20. NKNikhil Kamath2:46:16

        Mm.

    21. RJRajeev Juneja2:46:16

        I mean, just we, we sell Preganews. It's what? It's a kit for just to check your pregnancy.

    22. NKNikhil Kamath2:46:21

        Mm.

    23. RJRajeev Juneja2:46:22

        How much we sell?

    24. NKNikhil Kamath2:46:23

        Yeah?

    25. RJRajeev Juneja2:46:23

        Mm. 300 crore rupees worth.

    26. NKNikhil Kamath2:46:27

        I think the game changer will be when you can take blood on your own.

    27. RJRajeev Juneja2:46:30

        Yeah.

    28. NKNikhil Kamath2:46:32

        Somebody was trying that, no? They di-

    29. GPG.V. Prasad2:46:33

        You, you, you can still take a drop.

    30. NKNikhil Kamath2:46:35

        Uh.

Episode duration: 2:51:06