Scaling Global Organizations in the Age of AI with ServiceNow CEO Bill McDermott

1. 0:00 – 0:50

   Cold Open

   1. BMBill McDermott0:00

      The cost to replace an enterprise platform in this SaaS apocalypse that people talk about is an extraordinary expense. Let's take that cost, and then let's take the cost associated with the human capital doing that instead of something else, 'cause the platform was doing the work for you. And then let's add up the cost of the GPU factory and the tokens that will materially affect their business model. And so for a simple application on our platform, it would be ten times greater in cost to try to replicate it with a language model. People that run businesses understand that people make mistakes. They never will forgive software for making a mistake.

   2. SGSarah Guo0:48

      [upbeat music]

2. 0:50 – 1:14

   Bill McDermott Introduction

   1. SGSarah Guo0:51

      Hi, listeners. Welcome back to No Priors. Today, I'm here with Bill McDermott, CEO of ServiceNow, and the closest thing we have to a rock star in enterprise technology. We talk about leadership in the age of AI, what enterprise customers actually want, the difference between SaaS platforms and the SaaS apocalypse theory, and the next ten years of ServiceNow. Welcome. Thank you so much for being here.

   2. BMBill McDermott1:12

      Thank you for having me, Sarah. Thank

3. 1:14 – 7:35

   Lesson from Buying a Deli

   1. BMBill McDermott1:14

      you.

   2. SGSarah Guo1:14

      So, um, I wanna talk about your career and leadership and what's going on with ServiceNow, but I wanna start at the beginning. Um, I read Winterstream last week.

   3. BMBill McDermott1:23

      Thanks.

   4. SGSarah Guo1:23

      Uh, and you... It's an amazing book. You talk about the deli you bought when you were 16. Uh, first of all, that's a very strange thing to do.

   5. BMBill McDermott1:31

      [laughs]

   6. SGSarah Guo1:31

      Um, but it is such an amazing story. Can you tell me a little bit first about your thought process, and then we can talk about how you managed it.

   7. BMBill McDermott1:39

      Yeah. I don't, uh, I don't deserve too much credit for, um, you know, doing a strange thing buying the deli 'cause I was really trading in multiple part-time jobs.

   8. SGSarah Guo1:51

      Mm-hmm.

   9. BMBill McDermott1:51

      Uh, at the time, I was stocking shelves, pumping gas, and bussing tables, and so I had a chance to consolidate all of that into the delicatessen and have one job where I could spend all of my hours. And for a kid going to high school, that kinda made a little bit more sense. So I got lucky. I bought the business for fifty-five hundred notes, seven thousand with interest. If I make the payments, I keep it. If I miss a payment, they take everything away from me. So it was a pretty cut-and-dry moment, and I think the, the biggest thing that I've learned in my life, and especially there, is it's all about the customer. In the end, the customer and the customer alone determines whether you win or lose, and it's a very simple equation. If you ke-keep them coming back, you got a good chance, and if you don't, you lose. And, you know, back then, one of the most interesting parts about that store was knowing your customer and knowing your base. And I really had, you know, three main customers. You know, one was the blue-collar worker, like my dad, as I said in the book, was rich on Friday and dead broke by Sunday morning. There were the senior citizens, and this was the early days of DoorDash, I guess, because they never wanted to leave their house, and we delivered.

   10. SGSarah Guo3:18

       Mm-hmm.

   11. BMBill McDermott3:18

       And no one else did. And the hard part was getting the kids to walk a block and a half past 7-Eleven to come to my store, and these were the early days of video games and Asteroids and Pac-Man and, you know, you tell that to people today, most of them never even heard of these games. But kids would stand there for hours plucking their parents' quarters into those games, and that's how I got them to walk a block and a half past 7-Eleven and come to my store. At the end of the, uh, a long day, one of the young people said to me, "You know, when we wanna have good food, be treated with dignity and respect, and play video games, we come to your store. And when we wanna steal stuff, we go to 7-Eleven." So if you take care of your customer, you know who your customer is, and you give them what they want just the way they want it, no matter what business you're in, you've got a really good chance. And that's all I did. And it put me through school, including college, and it got me my start. And I have to tell you, the EQ that comes with dealing with five hundred customers a day is worth a lot, and I have a feeling the world could use a little more EQ right now.

   12. SGSarah Guo4:38

       I, uh, learned a great deal not managing, um, a deli, but, uh, at least being a hostess at an Outback Steakhouse.

   13. BMBill McDermott4:44

       See?

   14. SGSarah Guo4:45

       Yeah.

   15. BMBill McDermott4:45

       You can relate, right?

   16. SGSarah Guo4:47

       Uh, well, you just... Y-you know, the repeats of dealing with a lot of different types of people-

   17. BMBill McDermott4:50

       Yeah

   18. SGSarah Guo4:50

       ... is useful. Um, so, uh, it's still, like, amazing and strange to me. You talk about-

   19. BMBill McDermott4:56

       Okay

   20. SGSarah Guo4:56

       ... this set of customers that you, um, you know, understood and tried to serve. Like, were you just sitting there in the deli observing them before you bought the thing? Like, how did you even figure out these are the people?

   21. BMBill McDermott5:06

       I worked, I worked there first, you know? And, uh, what happened was the owner, uh, was going through some personal divorce circumstances and wanted out.

   22. SGSarah Guo5:16

       Mm-hmm.

   23. BMBill McDermott5:16

       And I was the guy that was always there anyway, so he tried to sell it. It was only a one-year lease. You never owned the land or the building, so he was selling a one-year lease. The lease was owned by Sunmark Industries, which is Sunoco gas station.

   24. SGSarah Guo5:33

       Mm-hmm.

   25. BMBill McDermott5:33

       And they could throw you out any time they wanted, so only a kid who didn't know any better would pay anything for it. So eventually, that's how the deal got put together. I said, "I don't have any money, but I'll, you know, take a note from you and pay you back with interest. If I miss a payment, you get everything back." What was really interesting about the story is I didn't have any money. Um, but what I did have, because I worked there, is relationships with all the suppliers. So I got them to give me the first order on consignment.I said, "I will always pay you back. This is not a favor.

   26. SGSarah Guo6:11

       Mm-hmm.

   27. BMBill McDermott6:11

       This is a chance for you to get your shelves filled up with your stuff that I'm gonna sell for you, but in the end, I'll always owe you that first delivery."

   28. SGSarah Guo6:21

       Mm-hmm.

   29. BMBill McDermott6:21

       And probably they charged me too much on the margin, but I didn't care. I was in business, and that's all I wanted was a shot, and that's all I've ever wanted is a shot. And I'm so honored that in my life I've had the shot. And when you have a chance, you can really bring the winner within you out, and all people should ever want is an opportunity. Because an opportunity is a gift, and it's something that you should really cherish. And every time you get one, make the most of it.

   30. SGSarah Guo6:54

       That resonates. I, um, one of the things I love about being in venture is you're in the business of giving people shots-
4. 7:35 – 9:41

   Leadership in the AI Era

   1. SGSarah Guo7:35

      Um, when you, uh, uh... Okay, so it starts with, it starts with, you know, your, your part-time jobs in the deli and then this amazing career in sales and leadership in SAP and ServiceNow. Um, one more piece on the leadership, uh, front before we go to, you know, talking about the companies-

   2. BMBill McDermott7:52

      Sure, sure

   3. SGSarah Guo7:52

      ... what's happening in the tech landscape.

   4. BMBill McDermott7:53

      Yeah.

   5. SGSarah Guo7:53

      So, in the book you talk about resilience and ambition and disciplined execution.

   6. BMBill McDermott7:57

      Yeah.

   7. SGSarah Guo7:58

      When did those ideas crystallize in your head as the way you would lead, and then do, do you think that changes today given how dynamic the landscape is? And, uh, I was just talking to the, uh, leader of a, you know, tens of billions of dollar AI company.

   8. BMBill McDermott8:12

      Yeah.

   9. SGSarah Guo8:13

      And they're like, "We have to update our strategy every month. Like, we have no idea what's going on."

   10. BMBill McDermott8:17

       Uh-huh.

   11. SGSarah Guo8:17

       Um, and, and so, uh, how do you, how do you think about operating in today's environment?

   12. BMBill McDermott8:22

       I had the great pleasure last night of, uh, meeting with, uh, about 800, uh, business people that were in town from Brazil.

   13. SGSarah Guo8:31

       Mm-hmm.

   14. BMBill McDermott8:32

       And we were talking about leadership. And they took me back to my, uh, book, Winner's Dream. Uh, a lot of them listened to it, um, which is fun 'cause I, I actually read it, uh, kinda straight through in between business trips, and I'm glad I did because it, it added the authenticity to the book I had hoped for. Um, but it was wonderful being with them, and they really wanted to talk about leadership, and I think leadership is the, uh, the greatest profession in the world. And in this environment we're in today, which is changing, and it's dynamic like never before, and it's fast like never before. I tell them, "It is fast, but it'll never move this slow again.

   15. SGSarah Guo9:17

       [laughs]

   16. BMBill McDermott9:17

       So this is the way it's gonna be."

   17. SGSarah Guo9:19

       That's kind of stressful. [laughs]

   18. BMBill McDermott9:20

       Yeah, it is in it, it is in one way, um, but it's inspiring in another. You know, we have to learn to get, like, real inspiration from the challenges that are in front of us. Because if we're able to cope with them, and especially if we're able to overcome them, we get superpower.

5. 9:41 – 15:47

   How Bill Got Hired at Xerox

   1. BMBill McDermott9:41

      But I go back to the original job of being a leader and, you know, getting my first break with getting my job at Xerox and, you know, Xerox back then was the Google of its era.

   2. SGSarah Guo9:53

      Right.

   3. BMBill McDermott9:54

      And it was just, like, such an honor, and, you know, I go back to that original interview a lot in my mind, and I think about the opportunity of getting that shot. And, you know, I'm getting geared up to leave Long Island. My dad drops me off at the railroad tracks and, you know, I'm just turned 21 years old, [laughs] and I, I guaranteed my dad I was coming home with my employee badge in my pocket. And there's something important about that, because my dad said, "Bill, you're a good guy. Don't put all that pressure on yourself."

   4. SGSarah Guo10:27

      Mm-hmm.

   5. BMBill McDermott10:28

      And I said, "No, no, no. I guarantee it." And I went in to New York that day, and I was reading the annual report on how that CEO, David Kearns was his name, was reinventing this corporation under the quality management principles given to the world by Deming. And at that time, as you know, most of the most valuable companies in the world were from, from Japan, um, and they were actually selling a very high quality product for a lesser price than Xerox was building a lesser quality product.

   6. SGSarah Guo11:04

      It's hard.

   7. BMBill McDermott11:05

      Hard to do, right? And so this is exactly the time I'm joining the company, but I was so inspired by this guy who wanted to transform that company that by the time I got into New York, I wanted to be the next David Kearns, but I had to go knock on cold doors for a living to get my shot. So on my last interview, I'm so psyched up 'cause I'm meeting with the big boss at 9 West 57th overlooking Central Park, and I sit on a bench next to another friend that's my buddy today, who's waiting for an interview.

   8. SGSarah Guo11:37

      Mm-hmm.

   9. BMBill McDermott11:38

      And he's been waiting for a long time. I said, "What are you doing?" "Waiting." I go over to Joanne Siciliano, who's a receptionist, and I said, "Look, I, I had all day. I'm not going anywhere. Please let Mr. Fullwood know I'm waiting, and I really look forward to our meeting." I was instantly invited into his office, and this is the essence of it all. As I looked over his shoulder at Central Park on the 38th floor in 9 West 57, I realized then, as I realize now, it was not an interviewIt was a battle for survival because if I get that job, I'm in control of my own destiny. It's my shot, and it's up to me to do something with it. So at the end of an interview, he said to me, "Bill, it's a very interesting interview. You're interesting young guy. The HR department's gonna get in touch with you in the next couple of weeks." And I said to him, "You know, Mr. Fullwood, I don't think you completely understand the situation, sir." And he looks at me with a tilted head like, "What's this kid up to?" And I said, um, "I haven't broken a promise to my father in twenty-one years, and I guaranteed I'm coming home tonight with my employee badge in my pocket." And he really, like, kinda tilts his head now like, "What's this guy up to?" And, uh, you know, he goes, "You know, Bill McDermott, as long as you haven't committed any crimes, you're hired." Now, I hadn't committed any crimes. Of course, I told him that, and I double-checked that, "You really mean it? I'm hired?"

   10. SGSarah Guo13:13

       Mm-hmm.

   11. BMBill McDermott13:13

       And he goes, "Yeah." So I go over there, and I... You know, he's kinda sitting the way you are. I pick him up, hug him a little bit, put him safely back in his chair, and I run past the receptionist, Joanne, and get down to, um, Fifth Avenue and head over to Sixth Avenue to a Bundt and Burger to a payphone. I call up Mom and Dad, and I say, you know, "Break out the Korbel. I got the job." Now, people don't often know, especially in Silicon Valley, what Korbel is.

   12. SGSarah Guo13:42

       I'll admit, I do not. Yeah.

   13. BMBill McDermott13:43

       It is, like, the cheapest, worst champagne you've ever, ever had in your life.

   14. SGSarah Guo13:48

       Okay.

   15. BMBill McDermott13:48

       But in Long Island where I come from, that's Cristal. So the point of the whole thing, twenty-five years later, Emerson Fullwood asked me to give a speech at the Rochester Institute of Technology to students. And in introducing me, he said the only time that he had ever broken policy at the Xerox Corporation-

   16. SGSarah Guo14:17

       Mm-hmm

   17. BMBill McDermott14:17

       ... was the day he hired me. I didn't know that, and what I found remarkable about it is that he remembered that, and he knew what he was doing when he did it and thought it was worth it. So we have to put tremendous care into people, tremendous attention to detail when it comes to, you know, uniqueness in human beings and what they are capable of doing. And without him, I wouldn't have gotten my shot, and I never forgot that. And today, when I have CEO meetings, he still comes to them, and he's my friend for life. So I think somehow in the mixture of things with AI and today's society, we're losing a little bit of the human power that we all have to connect with each other and do magical things together and just make sure we remember AI is to serve people-

   18. SGSarah Guo15:23

       Mm-hmm

   19. BMBill McDermott15:23

       ... and to make the human ambition greater, not to take it away from us. And so that's, uh, my feeling on, you know, just how things have changed. But in many ways, the essence of leadership, human connection, people are just more important now than ever.

6. 15:47 – 18:40

   Can Agency Be Taught?

   1. SGSarah Guo15:47

      I know I said I was gonna then ask you about ServiceNow, but I have to ask you a little bit more about this.

   2. BMBill McDermott15:52

      Sure. Let's do it.

   3. SGSarah Guo15:52

      Um, do you think it's possible to coach or to teach people that type of agency that y- you have?

   4. BMBill McDermott15:59

      Yeah, I do. Um, I think that, you know... Someone asked me last night, you know, that similar question, and I said, "You know, I'm a person, like a lot of other people, I was a very shy, quiet, laid-back kid and really came into my own through work."

   5. SGSarah Guo16:19

      Mm-hmm.

   6. BMBill McDermott16:19

      And, you know, those part-time jobs I was telling you about and the desire to be somebody in this world and know that my only way out, I wasn't gonna make the NBA. I love basketball, but I wasn't gonna make the NBA.

   7. SGSarah Guo16:34

      Yeah, me neither. [chuckles]

   8. BMBill McDermott16:35

      Right. So I said, "You know, what, what can I control?"

   9. SGSarah Guo16:38

      Mm-hmm.

   10. BMBill McDermott16:39

       "I can control how hard I work. I can control desire to do something and make a difference. I can control that." And so I got a lot of confidence from work, and, you know, other people might get confidence from something else, and that's fine. But I think it's so important to be connected to work, especially work that ties to people.

   11. SGSarah Guo17:02

       Mm-hmm.

   12. BMBill McDermott17:02

       'Cause when you know how to deal with people, and in the deli, I had five hundred of them a day, you start to get a good feeling and a good understanding that if you really listen, if you really care, and you're really there, present, and not just going through the motions, there's people that wanna connect with that kind of person.

   13. SGSarah Guo17:26

       Mm-hmm.

   14. BMBill McDermott17:27

       And so I really do believe that you can teach that, but you do have to practitioner, you know, those, um, ideas. You have to, um, be a part of the process, and I think so much is done today on the, the beautiful mobile phone in your hand that it's replaced, you know, the human side of the connection. I, like you, I've got one in each pocket.

   15. SGSarah Guo17:55

       [chuckles]

   16. BMBill McDermott17:56

       And I value them-

   17. SGSarah Guo17:57

       Mm-hmm

   18. BMBill McDermott17:57

       ... because they make me more productive and happier because I can do those things. But, um, w- we really do have to train people. Um, we have to make them do it.Um, where they actually have to simulate and be trained and be certified and understand and be coached well, so they have the confidence to get out there and be in front of other people where they can lead and make a difference. And I'm convinced that they can do it. Yes, there are differences. Some people are more skilled at it naturally, innately, no question. But, um, more people are capable of more things than they realize.

   19. SGSarah Guo18:39

       That's very encouraging.

7. 18:40 – 25:18

   Seeing Change as Opportunity

   1. SGSarah Guo18:40

      Uh, one thing that also struck me as soon as I asked you the question about, like, leadership in the age of AI was your immediate reaction. I said, you know, something that's a very, uh, common sentiment. It's the, the pace of change is scary.

   2. BMBill McDermott18:53

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SGSarah Guo18:54

      And your immediate reaction was like, "Well, it's also inspiring," right?

   4. BMBill McDermott18:58

      Yes.

   5. SGSarah Guo18:58

      It's a very, like, positive attitude-

   6. BMBill McDermott19:00

      Right

   7. SGSarah Guo19:00

      ... um, uh, for, especially for, you know, someone running an amazing, incredibly durable platform company where you're also facing more questions than you have previously.

   8. BMBill McDermott19:10

      Sure.

   9. SGSarah Guo19:10

      Um, how do you think about, like, you know, in getting everybody at your company or encouraging other people to have that type of reaction to change, that it's all an opportunity?

   10. BMBill McDermott19:21

       Well, for one, I agree with you that a lot of people are frightened of change to begin with. The era of AI has disrupted every industry, every business, every person, and everybody needs to really rethink everything. [chuckles]

   11. SGSarah Guo19:42

       Mm-hmm.

   12. BMBill McDermott19:42

       And it seems to be coming all at once. So my approach to that was to lean into it. And one of the ways we did that here is put together a white paper on the blueprint for agentic business, which I'll happily give you a copy of today, um, and train them-

   13. SGSarah Guo20:02

       Mm-hmm

   14. BMBill McDermott20:02

       ... on, you know, what is the difference between a language model and an enterprise platform. Not saying better or worse, they're both important. They're both extremely important, and one actually makes the other stronger, but if you don't know where one begins and one ends, it really is kinda confusing for people. And that was a big unlock.

   15. SGSarah Guo20:24

       Mm-hmm.

   16. BMBill McDermott20:25

       I literally had CEOs tell me that that white paper actually let them see the world totally different, that there were many things in it that they didn't know or didn't realize. One such example would be, you know, um, let's take an example that's real. Every company today has a compensation issue. So okay, we have a compensation issue on aisle seven in XYZ Corporation. The language model will do a great job of telling you, "In a compensation situation like this, please consider step one, two, and three." Excellent. Does it in milliseconds. Fantastic. Only problem is, it doesn't actually close the case.

   17. SGSarah Guo21:12

       Mm-hmm.

   18. BMBill McDermott21:13

       So now in aisle seven, we gotta have the data, the context, and we'll have to go in and out of several different iterations of departments 'cause let's assume it's a salesperson in aisle seven, and oh, by the way, that's connected to the HR department. And because it might be a problem, probably finance is involved in it or legal or compliance or risk, and now we have data and a workflow that's gone through many different iterations, databases, and functions to come back and remediate the issue and close the case.

   19. SGSarah Guo21:52

       Mm-hmm.

   20. BMBill McDermott21:53

       That's what a workflow platform like ServiceNow does. And it was also important to have AI think but workflow acts. That's an unlock for a lot of people.

   21. SGSarah Guo22:05

       Mm-hmm.

   22. BMBill McDermott22:05

       Another case example would be, hey, you know, I'm a bank. I've got fifteen thousand of my own engineers. My CEO is under pressure from the board to come up with AI use cases. The board meeting's coming up in sixty days, and I gotta look like I got all my stories straight on what we're doing to infuse AI.

   23. SGSarah Guo22:28

       Mm-hmm.

   24. BMBill McDermott22:29

       You agree that that's a common thing, right?

   25. SGSarah Guo22:31

       It's very common, yes.

   26. BMBill McDermott22:31

       Very common thing. Okay. So one thing would be AI and some of the AI, um, code out there is fantastic, and it can write new code very beautifully and set up the engineer for success and get things done at a speed never before done in the world. It's also true that that net new code comes at a cost because the cost to replace an enterprise platform in this SaaSpocalypse that people talk about is an extraordinary expense to try to match what some of these really important enterprise platforms do.

   27. SGSarah Guo23:16

       Mm-hmm.

   28. BMBill McDermott23:16

       'Cause you'd have to rebuild it. You're getting a model. I'm gonna write code now. So I'm rebuilding your model.

   29. SGSarah Guo23:23

       Mm-hmm.

   30. BMBill McDermott23:24

       Let's take that cost, and then let's take the cost associated with the human capital doing that instead of something else 'cause the platform was doing the work for you. And then let's add up the cost of the GPU factory, the business model associated with the language model company, and the tokens that will materially affect their business model. We've actually done the math on this.
8. 25:18 – 30:30

   ServiceNow as an AI Control Tower

   1. SGSarah Guo25:18

      Uh, I, I think, uh, a lot of the, uh, SaaSpocalypse discussion, um, ignores the basic fact that I don't think most businesses want to build workflow software for everything they do-

   2. BMBill McDermott25:31

      Right

   3. SGSarah Guo25:31

      ... internally. Um, and I do think they want somebody to be responsible for it, and I think it takes a lot of energy to go gather that context today. It is not an automated thing. And maybe it'll become more automated, but, uh, but that all resonates for me. I, I will have to ask you, w- you know, um, so LMs, they can, in the traditional interaction mode, they give you an answer when you ask a question, right?

   4. BMBill McDermott25:57

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SGSarah Guo25:57

      Now you have long-horizon agents. Maybe you have computer use. People can use applications-

   6. BMBill McDermott26:02

      Right

   7. SGSarah Guo26:02

      ... with these models. Does that change your thinking at all?

   8. BMBill McDermott26:06

      No, I think we lean into it. You know, our, our perspective is these language model companies are fantastic, and they're very important, and they're gonna do fabulously well.

   9. SGSarah Guo26:17

      Mm-hmm.

   10. BMBill McDermott26:17

       Um, we said the same thing with the hyperscalers.

   11. SGSarah Guo26:19

       Mm-hmm.

   12. BMBill McDermott26:20

       You know, it wasn't that long ago that people were like, "Hey, you know, why wouldn't the hyperscalers just eat software?" Because everything is gonna go to a workload in these great hyperscaler companies, and they are great companies.

   13. SGSarah Guo26:32

       Yeah.

   14. BMBill McDermott26:32

       They're fabulous companies. And so our perspective was, we have to be the AI control tower for business reinvention that integrates with all the hyperscalers, with all the language models, and all the systems of record because they too are important companies, and the data that resides in them is very important. So if we can be that fabric that connects all those nodes, now we can help you run a true agentic business. And on top of that, we made the move into security, not because we're gonna do all things in security, but because US is the world's largest economy, China is number two, and cybercrime is number three.

   15. SGSarah Guo27:24

       Hmm.

   16. BMBill McDermott27:24

       It's a $1 trillion a month problem. And so we feel that being able to integrate to all the good security platforms, but manage IT and OT, which is the operating technology, with Armis now becoming a part of ServiceNow, we're gonna give corporations the ability to have a full purview of the whole landscape. And so, for example, in operating technology, you know, it could be networks with devices attached to it. It could be manufacturing with various tools that are or aren't on a network where AI can or may not even see them. It could actually be medical devices in a, uh, healthcare situation. Um, it could be a world's prestigious bank managing critical infrastructure, um, which includes the people, places, things, but also the building and the things in it. To have all of that in one automated AI platform for this reinvention of your business is pretty compelling. So it's all there now. And I really, like, see such a future and such growth in all of these businesses, our core and what we've extended it to, because we're a native AI company. Even the platform itself now is autonomous. And, you know, you've seen what we did with Moveworks, the agentic front door to the enterprise; Invesa, which is human and non-human identity; and now the security move with Armis on top of an unbelievable core. By the way, we integrated these businesses in 20 days. 20 days. So a lot of companies don't have the engineering power to say they can do hard things quickly.

   17. SGSarah Guo29:17

       Mm-hmm.

   18. BMBill McDermott29:17

       Um, but, you know, we're blessed with some real talent here.

   19. SGSarah Guo29:21

       It's very impressive. I have, uh, sold companies to, you know, large enterprise software vendors where it takes, like, a year and a half of rebuild to-

   20. BMBill McDermott29:29

       Right

   21. SGSarah Guo29:29

       ... get some value out of it.

   22. BMBill McDermott29:30

       Totally.

   23. SGSarah Guo29:31

       Yeah. Um, uh, uh, I think it's a really, uh, good historical reminder that people forget that there was this fear about the hyperscalers as well, which, as you mentioned, have become very important to all of our businesses-

   24. BMBill McDermott29:44

       Totally

   25. SGSarah Guo29:45

       ... and yet, um, have not replaced the need for, you know, workflow software and platforms.

   26. BMBill McDermott29:51

       Yeah. As you said, you know, actually are very good partners.

   27. SGSarah Guo29:54

       Mm-hmm.

   28. BMBill McDermott29:55

       You know? And on the, uh, back of a ServiceNow franchise, get billions in workloads into those clouds.

   29. SGSarah Guo30:03

       Mm-hmm.

   30. BMBill McDermott30:04

       And they're all such great companies, but they all tend to do different things super well. So for the customer to have choice is also a great idea, just like they'll want choice on the language models. And us not staying in the way of that and giving choice, but acting as that control tower is a huge competitive advantage or differentiation, which- whichever your perspective might be.
9. 30:30 – 32:22

   Which SaaS Gets Disrupted?

   1. SGSarah Guo30:30

      any segment in, um, enterprise software that is at risk from generated code and agents?

   2. BMBill McDermott30:37

      I think that it's true that there will be, um, companies that will be at risk. It's also true that they theoretically should be more valuable because of the data and the context around that data. But if there was a risk, I believe it's more departmental-

   3. SGSarah Guo30:58

      Mm-hmm

   4. BMBill McDermott30:59

      ... companies. So if you think about companies that do something that span multiple departments or are a serious system of record that is very hard to replicate, they're safe, and they'll, they'll be a part of the future. If you're serving one function, and what you do is not tremendously high value add, and it might not even be a high up on the priority list of a, a CEO, um, I think that that would be the, the chance where the vulnerability equation really rises quickly.

   5. SGSarah Guo31:37

      Mm-hmm.

   6. BMBill McDermott31:38

      Um, we're fortunate in the sense that we go end to end on a horizontal and north to south on a vertical up and down the stack and across the enterprise, and I think that's a pretty huge moat. And, uh, right now, I, I believe the last time I looked at it was more than eighty-five billion workflows are in flight as we're having this podcast, and we got seven trillion transactions happening on that platform, um, and it's representing the most important brands in the world. And that's, uh, not only something we're proud of, but it's also a serious responsibility because those companies can't miss, and that system always has to be there for them. And fortunately, it is.

   7. SGSarah Guo32:21

      You

10. 32:22 – 36:25

    Defining a Platform Business

    1. SGSarah Guo32:22

       uniquely have run two companies that are just clearly platform businesses-

    2. BMBill McDermott32:25

       Yeah

    3. SGSarah Guo32:26

       ... SAP and ServiceNow.

    4. BMBill McDermott32:28

       Mm-hmm.

    5. SGSarah Guo32:28

       Um, do you have a definition in your mind of what makes something a platform business? Because, uh, I grew up as an investor in the age of SaaS.

    6. BMBill McDermott32:35

       Yeah.

    7. SGSarah Guo32:35

       And, and, you know, rise of the cloud and everything, uh, and it is-- it-- I, I think it was wonderful for innovation that you could build, like, sort of features that turned into companies.

    8. BMBill McDermott32:47

       Right.

    9. SGSarah Guo32:48

       Right?

    10. BMBill McDermott32:48

        Right.

    11. SGSarah Guo32:48

        The software workflows-

    12. BMBill McDermott32:49

        Mm-hmm

    13. SGSarah Guo32:49

        ... that were, um, sort of tangential to a system of record-

    14. BMBill McDermott32:54

        Yeah

    15. SGSarah Guo32:54

        ... for example.

    16. BMBill McDermott32:55

        Yep.

    17. SGSarah Guo32:55

        Um, uh, ServiceNow originally began with, like, IT service desk-

    18. BMBill McDermott33:00

        Right

    19. SGSarah Guo33:00

        ... as the workflow. But how do you, how do you think about, like, how the positioning is, uh, and the actual work is very different now and then, like, you know, how, how you got there?

    20. BMBill McDermott33:11

        Yeah. I think that had we only, um, done what you rightfully point out, which had been an IT, uh, service company as an example-

    21. SGSarah Guo33:21

        Mm-hmm

    22. BMBill McDermott33:21

        ... that might have been a system of record for the IT department. But I think when CEOs look at a corporation and they say, "What are the needle movers?" Those are the companies that, since you mentioned the two that I work for, um, you know, one is running the financial system of global corporations of mass scale in multiple currencies, geographies, industries, um, and it's really kinda thorny, um, to co-- and complicated to even think about removing something, especially something that's probably been mass customized for the unique attributes of that business.

    23. SGSarah Guo34:00

        Mm-hmm.

    24. BMBill McDermott34:00

        Um, so the investment scale was great. The switching costs are very high. I think you would consider that a platform. And I would say the same is true in a certain sense for a company like ServiceNow, um, but for a different reason. Yes, it's a system of record for all the things IT and the services that it provides, but it's even bigger than that in the sense that all of the other systems of record-

    25. SGSarah Guo34:28

        Mm-hmm

    26. BMBill McDermott34:28

        ... integrate with it. So now you have roughly eight hundred of the more substantial systems of record that integrate into it. And because of our in-memory open source data platform, so it's built on the open source technologies, but its speed, its scale, its ability to ingest data, we could take as much as you give us. But similarly, you might say, "Okay, you know, I'll give you your core IT and OT, and I ho-- I get the holistic end-to-end process, but, you know, I have data lakes, I have hyperscalers, I have language models. What about in the flow of work or a business process? What can you do for me if I don't wanna put it in ServiceNow?" Oh, we make a zero copy, and then the transaction is complete, done and dusted, nothing moved, there was no risk associated with it, and it works. So I think that is a mission-critical, um, platform in the execution of work and the basics of getting things done. What's unique about it is you can change the business process instantaneously using the AI tools that are resident in the platform. So if you wanna build a net new application, you can do so. If you wanna see how the business process would change in a knowledge graph, you can do so, and you can see how that change impacted the processes and the way work flows and all the individuals impacted in a corporation in real time. Uh, so I think the, the motion of that is very, very hard to replicate, both on the history of it, the bandwidth of it, and also what we have designed in terms of the system's capabilities. It's, uh, it's very unique.

11. 36:25 – 39:06

    Does AI Decrease Implementation Time?

    1. SGSarah Guo36:25

       One of the things that makes workflow platforms so sticky is-

    2. BMBill McDermott36:32

       Mm-hmm

    3. SGSarah Guo36:32

       ... the, um, the organization, beginning with IT. Uh-Learns how to deploy workflows on it.

    4. BMBill McDermott36:38

       Mm-hmm.

    5. SGSarah Guo36:39

       And as you said, maybe they're do- they can do it even more instantaneously now.

    6. BMBill McDermott36:42

       Yeah.

    7. SGSarah Guo36:42

       Um, uh, the cost to implement new business processes, integrate, customize, has always been very high for enterprises. Um, is that decreasing with AI? Um, is that a, like, a advantage for you? A concern for you?

    8. BMBill McDermott36:58

       It's a great question. It's actually a big advantage because we were always quick to implement.

    9. SGSarah Guo37:04

       Mm-hmm.

    10. BMBill McDermott37:04

        You know, nobody has time for multi-year projects.

    11. SGSarah Guo37:08

        Mm-hmm.

    12. BMBill McDermott37:08

        You know this, and, uh, the customer wants to get the value really fast, and with autonomous platform like we have now, um, we have major customers, big ones, that are going live in less than thirty days. Big ones. And so think about it. You know, if you go back, as you mentioned, you know, think about the financial crisis era and the scale even then of SaaS applications, if they could've been implemented in less than thirty days, everybody would be doing a rain dance with happiness. Um, it took months. And to think that you can do things, big things, complex things, in less than thirty days, in some cases even faster, um, and it's all modular, so you can get your quick wins and just keep going. Um, you know, some people thought that the SIs, you know, would be hurt by this, but the difference is they actually have many more projects now [chuckles] that they can do much more quickly.

    13. SGSarah Guo38:06

        Oh, that's what you're saying.

    14. BMBill McDermott38:08

        Yeah. I, I'm saying much more quickly. Everything is happening much faster. The customer's ROI is better. I'm a big, you know, proponent of a native AI company, and everything we do is about being a native AI company. Every change we make is because of AI. And some of those things, you know, they change business models. They change, um, the way humans actually work in the company. For example, you know, ninety percent of our customer service cases now are managed by agents.

    15. SGSarah Guo38:38

        Mm-hmm.

    16. BMBill McDermott38:39

        And, you know, that, that means, like, only ten percent are actually involving people. Um, and so there's a lifting and a shifting and a changing of the guard in terms of what people do for the critical thinking and the judgment calls that they have to make instead of the tactical, you know, work of just grinding out details.

    17. SGSarah Guo39:01

        Mm.

    18. BMBill McDermott39:01

        And I think that makes people happier in the work, but it also does change the work.

12. 39:06 – 40:59

    Agents Will Reshape the Workforce

    1. SGSarah Guo39:06

       Um, if you were to fast-forward five years, like, what do you think, uh, is different about the employee base at ServiceNow or even, like, the work being done?

    2. BMBill McDermott39:15

       I think they-- In terms of the employee base, I think you're gonna see that the net new added headcount will be dramatically reduced.

    3. SGSarah Guo39:24

       Mm-hmm.

    4. BMBill McDermott39:24

       And that's because the company will be far more productive. The agents are real-

    5. SGSarah Guo39:30

       Mm-hmm

    6. BMBill McDermott39:30

       ... and they will take on a tremendous workload. So where to keep up with growth in a growth company like ServiceNow, you would have to hire thousands of people in finance and HR and the supporting functions and services just to keep up with it all, and now the agents are gonna be able to do a lot of that. So you're gonna invest in things that really matter, like humans that engineer great innovations and that humans that actually manage the relationship and the importance of human-to-human connection, building trust, um, making promises and keeping them and enduring a relationship and the net present value of loyalty in that relationship. That's all gonna be human. Um, but I, I can see a company where, you know, you don't have to really increase headcount to achieve that goal. And I do think that the, uh, the bar got raised in terms of differentiating your skill set and making sure what you're capable of doing can't be easily replicated by an agent, um, not just at ServiceNow, but in all businesses. If an agent can do it as good or better, that's an easily-- easy economic decision to make, which is why, you know, there'll be two point two billion of these agents entering the workforce in the next couple of years. [chuckles] So, you know, there's gonna be a lot more agents than there will be people.

13. 40:59 – 44:07

    Success Signals at ServiceNow

    1. SGSarah Guo40:59

       When you think about, you're just describing, you know, ServiceNow is growing about twenty percent-

    2. BMBill McDermott41:03

       Yeah. For sure

    3. SGSarah Guo41:04

       ... a year.

    4. BMBill McDermott41:04

       Yeah.

    5. SGSarah Guo41:04

       Um, thirteen-plus billion in revenue trailing, so massive business growing at scale. I think one of the things that's so interesting about this, um, SaaSpocalypse narrative is, uh, you know, many of the companies as described are actually, like, doing really well-

    6. BMBill McDermott41:21

       Mm-hmm

    7. SGSarah Guo41:21

       ... on fundamentals. Um, w-what are the signals you look for in your own business besides, you know, what customers tell you they want to do with you?

    8. BMBill McDermott41:30

       Right.

    9. SGSarah Guo41:31

       Um, like, quantitatively or o-otherwise that say, like, what we're doing in AI is working?

    10. BMBill McDermott41:36

        Well, the fo- most important thing is we've expanded the boundaries of the platform. So we have a company that's operating globally.

    11. SGSarah Guo41:46

        Mm-hmm.

    12. BMBill McDermott41:46

        We operate across multiple industries in the companies that we serve. We serve everything from IT, to the employee experience, to our fastest-growing, uh, TAM customer relationship management, obviously all the work that the creators do, and security, as I talked about.

    13. SGSarah Guo42:06

        Mm-hmm.

    14. BMBill McDermott42:07

        So what I'm looking for is the adoption of the AI control tower for business reinvention. And are we the agentic front door to the enterprise? Are we managing the humans and the non-human identities? Are we connecting in the workflow data fabric all of the nodes that are operating in an enterprise, um, whether it's a data lake, a hyperscale, a language model, a system of record? All those things should go through the central nervous system, which is ServiceNow. And obviously-When I think about, oh, IT, we know the people, we know the places, we know the things. When I think about OT, we actually know the networks, the devices that reside on them, the critical infrastructure, the shadow IT, the disconnected controllers in the case of a manufacturing company as an example. So this amazing real-time insight and visibility into how that company is running and how we can make that company run better, that's the ethos of everything in terms of the customer relationship, that we know more, that we care more, and that we can do more for that customer than any other enterprise company in the world. That's the game plan. And, you know, for my money, um, what else do I look for? I look for the AI and the assists that the agents are doing to help the humans in the companies we serve. And I want to see that the trend line of those assists and the consumption of that innovation is really going, uh, right and up to the north side of c-- of town.

    15. SGSarah Guo43:49

        Mm-hmm.

    16. BMBill McDermott43:49

        Because by doing that, you've solidified your position as super important to the way the company actually runs.

    17. SGSarah Guo43:56

        Mm-hmm.

    18. BMBill McDermott43:57

        And not to mention the fact that the shareholder value creation takes on a whole new meaning once you kick in that consumption model on top of everything else.

14. 44:07 – 48:41

    Enterprise Attitudes About AI

    1. SGSarah Guo44:08

       When you, um, talk to, like, this amazing enterprise customer base that is deeply embedded with you and then as, as you said, importantly, trusts you-

    2. BMBill McDermott44:15

       Right

    3. SGSarah Guo44:15

       ... and trusts you to do more all the time-

    4. BMBill McDermott44:17

       Totally

    5. SGSarah Guo44:17

       ... um, what is the state of play in terms of... You know, you describe a very forward-looking vision for what AI can do to transform enterprises. Like, where, where are people today? What are the first questions they ask you? Do they believe it?

    6. BMBill McDermott44:28

       Yeah, I think that's a great, um, point because most people today-

    7. SGSarah Guo44:33

       Mm-hmm

    8. BMBill McDermott44:34

       ... know that they have to do something with AI.

    9. SGSarah Guo44:36

       Mm-hmm.

    10. BMBill McDermott44:37

        But like in the case of Brazil as an example, only eleven percent of the companies, since that was last night's meeting, um, have actually gotten past the experiment phase-

    11. SGSarah Guo44:49

        Right

    12. BMBill McDermott44:49

        ... where they're doing experiments. And so we're seeing now the companies are going past the experiment phase into mainstream on building the agentic business, on building the agents to complement the humans, and on driving business model innovation and efficiency. That is now picking up steam. But you have to remember, it's a very diverse set out there. I mean, in public sector, they're just basically now trying to consolidate complexity and get one department to speak to another department, so we don't have billions of fraud getting through the cracks. Um, other industries, like healthcare as an example, we're now moving into the modernization phase, so the patient experience isn't so miserable because the professionals that work there are great, but the systems have been holding them back. But if you look at a financial services firm, for example, um, you know, they're moving full, full speed on what can I do with AI to fundamentally rethink how I run my company, to manage my head count better, um, to get more done with a lot less. So it's kind of based on industry, based on geo. Different geos have, um, adopted it more quickly. The US is the leader in terms of, of consumption-

    13. SGSarah Guo46:13

        Mm

    14. BMBill McDermott46:13

        ... and adoption of AI, and they're moving faster. I gave you a flavor of some of the industries, but I would say that it's more about, um, modernization as a standard, and the first movers now are moving out with AI, and they're aggressive, and they're going for it.

    15. SGSarah Guo46:31

        When you think about, like, what going for it means, are there a set of use cases that are universal across companies, or are, are there different things that matter to the different segments-

    16. BMBill McDermott46:42

        I, I think that they're-

    17. SGSarah Guo46:43

        ... of first movers?

    18. BMBill McDermott46:44

        ... um, they're looking at their business model.

    19. SGSarah Guo46:46

        Mm-hmm.

    20. BMBill McDermott46:47

        And what can AI do to change my business model, the ones that are first movers or early movers? Um, and head count is definitely on the table. Um, obviously, if you believe in the agent world, uh, and you do increase head count, it's because you can see that the heads are supporting the digital transformation and the inclusion of the agents, and there's more revenue-

    21. SGSarah Guo47:13

        Mm-hmm

    22. BMBill McDermott47:13

        ... to be gotten by adding them.

    23. SGSarah Guo47:14

        Yeah. There's ROI on it. Yeah.

    24. BMBill McDermott47:16

        Exactly. And they're not going to add them anymore, meaning people-

    25. SGSarah Guo47:21

        Mm-hmm

    26. BMBill McDermott47:21

        ... without a clear ROI case. And in many cases, a lot of these companies, especially if you look at the years two thousand and twenty to two, two thousand and twenty-four, they hired a lot through COVID. Not a lot of people talk about this. I haven't actually heard anyone talk about it. But when they did the hiring, and everybody had a hand in this, a lot of it was virtual.

    27. SGSarah Guo47:44

        Mm-hmm.

    28. BMBill McDermott47:45

        A lot of it then was, you know, keep the people. We need the people. Um, you know, there's a crisis out there. And now they've realized they've layered up the companies. Um, some of the people maybe didn't get as close a look as they should have because, you know, Zoom was the way to meet them, greet them, and hire them. And now with the inclusion of AI in the business model and the innovation of the companies, it's kinda like, how do we get leaner? How do we get smarter? And if AI does make us better, we should see that in the ultimate profitability of the company, the revenue per employee of the company, and the company should have expanding margins, expanding or re-accelerating revenue, and should be in a more exciting growth story than it was two, three, four, five years ago. So there's high expectations for what AI can do.

15. 48:41 – 50:48

    How AI Has Changed Customer Conversations

    1. SGSarah Guo48:41

       What is the biggest thing that's changed in customer conversations for you about AI over the last year?

    2. BMBill McDermott48:46

       Right now, I think it's just-Tell me what I need to know. Um, it's not like, "Let me come in and discover your problems."

    3. SGSarah Guo48:55

       Mm-hmm.

    4. BMBill McDermott48:55

       Or, "Let me bring you a solution 'cause I have one in my pocket, and I can't wait to share it with you." Um, it's like, you know my business. If you don't know my business, there's no conversation. But let's assume you know the business. Be very prescriptive. Tell me very specifically at the macro level, depending on the level you're talking to, how do I transform the company in keeping with the CEO vision or the management team's vision? At a departmental level, you really understand whether it's sales, it's human capital, it's engineering, or it's technology with CTO and its orientation. You really understand the landscape, and you have very quick solutions that can get up and running and deliver the value in a highly predictable manner, and it's AI-driven. Like, they have to have AI in there because they know the AI is the force multiplier. And so I would say the dance, um, has gotten brief. The execution is where they wanna spend their time. Get me there fast.

    5. SGSarah Guo50:06

       A pretty impatient set of customers.

    6. BMBill McDermott50:07

       Very.

    7. SGSarah Guo50:08

       But they're, uh, sounds like they're pretty decisive given the parameters.

    8. BMBill McDermott50:11

       Real decisive-

    9. SGSarah Guo50:12

       Yeah

    10. BMBill McDermott50:12

        ... and, and real fair.

    11. SGSarah Guo50:13

        Yeah.

    12. BMBill McDermott50:13

        I mean, you know, very open-minded. If you can help me, do it, because I need the help. Everyone will tell you they need the help. They're not telling you they have all the answers. So it's our job, again, to know more about this than they do. Otherwise, the, why do they need us in the room? And then you have to have a position that you take that brings something unique and variable to the equation. I always tell people, "If two people are in the same room at the same time with the same opinion, one of them is redundant." [laughs]

    13. SGSarah Guo50:45

        Uh, I wanna, um, uh, well,

16. 50:48 – 52:29

    Bill’s Curiosity Beyond ServiceNow

    1. SGSarah Guo50:48

       I, I wanna close up with, like, two, um, maybe more personal questions. Uh, you have a lot to cover with ServiceNow, but you're also just an interested, interested guy. What inspires you or makes you curious in, in AI or elsewhere in technology, um, outside of what you're doing with ServiceNow?

    2. BMBill McDermott51:05

       Well, I'm fascinated by so many things. Um, what really interests me in technology is how it will truly improve the world, the human condition. Um, it could be an environmental conversation. It could be what we're seeing happening in outer space. It could be, uh, a global corporation, uh, trying to do unique things in a world in new places that they've yet to conquer, but they can do so with technology now and AI, and they can simulate a presence that might not actually be physical, but it could be unique, virtual, and new. There's new routes to market. There's new channels. There's so many new things that could be done. So I think that this is the era where everything really does evolve and possibilities exist where they just weren't, wasn't possible three, four, five years ago. Um, so I, I find that, you know, it goes back to the quote that I put in the, in the book, um, since you mentioned Win As Dream, when, uh, the great Robert Kennedy once said, you know, "Some men see things as they are and say why. I dream things that never were and say why not." So I always try to look at things that didn't exist or don't exist with the application of technology or just a great dream, what's possible.

17. 52:29 – 57:27

    Day in the Life of a CEO

    1. SGSarah Guo52:29

       Uh, and then in terms of just the, the, the day-to-day in between your, your dreaming, um, what is the day in, uh, the life of Bill McDermott as ServiceNow CEO look like?

    2. BMBill McDermott52:41

       Well, it, it, uh, it depends on where you're physically at at the time, um, based on what you're doing because the time zones are all different. But if you're in, uh, California, which we are today together, um, you know, you start your day off, um, really easy to understand this with Europe. You migrate yourself then to the United States, and you wrap up with Asia. Um, so you always have to keep the tempo around the time zones and what's happening in the global economy. I just try to be a global person-

    3. SGSarah Guo53:12

       Mm-hmm

    4. BMBill McDermott53:12

       ... and be a leader that's involved in all dimensions of the company in any time zone in the world. So that's one, one aspect of it.

    5. SGSarah Guo53:21

       And you're talking to your teams. They're hearing what's going on with customers, what's going on with-

    6. BMBill McDermott53:25

       Today, today I've been in two out of the three with the regions of the world, and I'll finish up with the third. And absolutely I wanna hear w- what's going on with them, what's going on with the customer, what's going on with the business, uh, what's going well, what's not going well, um, based on, you know, where they're at at any one moment in time. I can see, um, and I feel things, um, very deeply, and I'll offer my suggestions. I try not to, um, make the decision for everybody, but I'll offer my suggestions just on observations. And then, you know, we have an open, honest riffing, uh, relationship on ideating on something, and then ultimately we get someplace quick. You know, there's no time to screw around. We gotta get to the point and move on. Um, a lot of time with customers. You know, I feel that I really get grounded with the customers and understanding what they're trying to accomplish and how I can help them. And, you know, a lot of people talk about, you know, sales and, you know, the idea of running corporations. It, it's all based on the customer and the customer alone. They determine whether you win or lose. And if you never lose that in your heart, you're closer to success than failure. Um, the other thing is I listen to the employees, you know. Um, for example, yesterday I started my day with 17 conversations with 17 quota-carrying reps.

    7. SGSarah Guo54:57

       Wow. That's a lot. Okay.

    8. BMBill McDermott54:58

       17.

    9. SGSarah Guo54:59

       Mm-hmm.

    10. BMBill McDermott55:00

        And I got 72 on my calendar this month.72.

    11. SGSarah Guo55:05

        Yeah.

    12. BMBill McDermott55:05

        And it's inspiring because anytime you need to feel, like, feel good, talk to the people that are closer to the customer, and you realize just how great your company is, how great the people are, how smart they are, and, and, you know, they have so many good ideas, and they're doing so many good things. You know, one woman said to me yesterday, you know, she was most proud of the health check of her customer. And she told me all about the customer. The health check is our heuristics around customer satisfaction, the performance of the system and so forth.

    13. SGSarah Guo55:42

        Mm-hmm.

    14. BMBill McDermott55:42

        And it just inspired me. And then, you know, always try to do, you know, one-to-one, one-to-few, and one-to-many. And last night I, you know, wrapped up my day with, um, eight hundred executives from Brazil, and it was, like, amazing. And they want to, you know, talk about leadership and many of the things that, you know, you wanna talk about. And I think everybody is in, uh, in the mode right now where they wanna learn, they wanna experience what you think, and, um, they wanna grow, and they are uncertain. And to some extent, you know, they don't have all the answers, and sometimes they're even afraid. And I explain to them, you know, "Don't look for the escape hatch." You know, this is the moment-

    15. SGSarah Guo56:29

        Mm-hmm

    16. BMBill McDermott56:29

        ... when leaders really matter because as the waters get choppy, you know, we see who's tough and who's not. And when the tide goes out, you wanna be fully dressed. And even if things don't look so good, you'll figure it out if you're fully dressed and you're ready for the battle. And I, I think that, um, this is bringing out the best in real leaders, and I live for this moment.

    17. SGSarah Guo56:56

        You seem like a leader for that moment, and I, I love the confidence that you have that, um, other leaders wanna meet that change too.

    18. BMBill McDermott57:02

        Thank you, Sarah.

    19. SGSarah Guo57:03

        Awesome. Thanks so much, Bill.

    20. BMBill McDermott57:04

        It was an honor meeting you and, uh, spending this time with you. Thank you very much. [upbeat music]

    21. SGSarah Guo57:10

        Find us on Twitter at NoPriorsPod. Subscribe to our YouTube channel if you wanna see our faces. Follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. That way you get a new episode every week. And sign up for emails or find transcripts for every episode at no-priors.com.

Episode duration: 57:27