Andy Cohen doesn’t think he’s a reality TV star

Andy Cohen 0:00 You know, BravoCon we do in Vegas, we've got 30,000 people going to absolutely, uh, idolize the almost 200 Bravolebrities that go and take part in it.

Kara Swisher 0:13 Bravolebrities?

Andy Cohen 0:14 Yes, Bravolebrities, Kara.

Kara Swisher 0:15 Okay. [laughs]

Andy Cohen 0:16 And they are able to sell things at booths.

Kara Swisher 0:19 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 0:19 They are able to-

Kara Swisher 0:20 Like a giant Star Trek convention

Andy Cohen 0:21 ... yes, I mean, they're, you know, yeah. It is on.

Kara Swisher 0:24 [upbeat music] Hi, everyone. My guest today is none other than Andy Cohen. If you somehow don't know him from Real Housewives or Watch What Happens Live, then you definitely know him as co-host of CNN's New Year's Eve Live with Anderson Cooper. He's also the author of several best-selling memoirs. The latest book is Andy's Bravo Scrapbook, coming out October 20th. Why do I wanna talk with Andy? Well, he's really fun to talk to, and I think he's, uh, actually really sharp at business. He's also a critic of President Trump, very vocally online, and that's unusual for a celebrity. And he's just someone that has a very interesting take on where things are going, especially in media. So let's get into it. Andy, thanks for coming on ON.

Andy Cohen 1:09 Thanks for having me.

Kara Swisher 1:10 I, I kinda stalked you, didn't I, through Anderson Cooper?

Andy Cohen 1:13 You know what? By the way, a flattering stalk-

Kara Swisher 1:15 Yeah, yeah

Andy Cohen 1:16 ... I would say.

Kara Swisher 1:16 Yes, I-

Andy Cohen 1:16 I mean... I-

Kara Swisher 1:18 Do you know, do you know where we met? You don't know. You probably don't remember.

Andy Cohen 1:20 Oh, God.

Kara Swisher 1:21 That's okay.

Andy Cohen 1:21 I'm scared to know.

Kara Swisher 1:22 It's all right.

Andy Cohen 1:22 I, I-

Kara Swisher 1:23 We were at dinner at the Sunset Towers-

Andy Cohen 1:25 Okay

Kara Swisher 1:25 ... with Lauren Zalaznick, early days of, of Bravo.

Andy Cohen 1:28 Wow. Long time ago.

Kara Swisher 1:29 Long time ago. And you were there, and you were hysterical-

Andy Cohen 1:32 Oh

Kara Swisher 1:32 ... at the head of the table.

Andy Cohen 1:34 Okay.

Kara Swisher 1:34 Yeah, you were great. You were great.

Andy Cohen 1:35 But was it just the three of us?

Kara Swisher 1:37 No, it was a-

Andy Cohen 1:37 Oh, okay

Kara Swisher 1:37 ... it, it was one of those Lauren dinners.

Andy Cohen 1:39 Yes, yes.

Kara Swisher 1:39 You know what I mean?

Andy Cohen 1:40 Okay. Yes.

Kara Swisher 1:40 And I had just finished the Code Conference, and I had interviewed all the techies. And you were actually, you had some questions about Mark Zuckerberg and everybody else-

Andy Cohen 1:47 Yes

Kara Swisher 1:47 ... at the time.

Andy Cohen 1:47 Okay. Wow, I didn't remember that.

Kara Swisher 1:49 And it was, it was fledgling days, like-

Andy Cohen 1:51 Yes

Kara Swisher 1:51 ... 'cause Lauren deserves a lot of credit, all of you do, about what it was. But at the time, I think it was Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. There was a couple of-

Andy Cohen 1:57 It was Project Runway, Queer Eye. Uh, yeah, we started with... And then we, and then we added Top Chef-

Kara Swisher 2:05 Top Chef, right

Andy Cohen 2:06 ... to do what Project Runway was doing for fashion, for food.

Kara Swisher 2:09 Right.

Andy Cohen 2:09 And then a little show called The Real Housewives.

Kara Swisher 2:13 Right. Well, little show, little show.

Andy Cohen 2:14 Yes.

Kara Swisher 2:14 We're gonna get into that and say-

Andy Cohen 2:15 Yeah

Kara Swisher 2:15 ... but you, it was really interesting 'cause at the time it wasn't as pop- Queer Eye was unusual and strange.

Andy Cohen 2:20 Queer Eye was really the thing that turned Bravo around.

Kara Swisher 2:24 That's right.

Andy Cohen 2:24 And that was before my time. I got the pitch for Queer Eye. I w- I was working for Barry Diller at a small, uh, at a small arts channel. And, uh, uh, uh, you knew from that pitch that it was gonna be amazing, but Bravo actually cast it with them, and it was amazing. And so, yes, but Lauren, uh, brought me over to Bravo in 2004.

Andy Cohen 2:47 And, uh, now I've been there 22 years, which is wild.

Kara Swisher 2:51 I, I know. It was early on. And one of the things was that you all were sort of the side... You know, people look for the fancy entertainment, and this was more people's entertainment in a lot of ways. And at the time, you all... I thought it was gonna be huge, I thought, 'cause it also kind of tracked what was happening online, which was a much more personal parasocial relationship people have with television that hadn't-

Andy Cohen 3:13 Yes

Kara Swisher 3:13 ... television had been separate.

Andy Cohen 3:14 Well, Watch What Happens Live, I think, was one of the first. We're now, we've been going 17 years, but you know, the only live show in late night, and also a show that was really driven by viewer-

Kara Swisher 3:25 Mm-hmm

Andy Cohen 3:25 ... viewer comments and-

Kara Swisher 3:27 Right, fans, fans

Andy Cohen 3:28 ... live polls. And so we're, they're kind of the fourth person in the clubhouse driving the conversation.

Kara Swisher 3:36 And at the time, it was looked upon as shabby, kind of thing. Same thing with the Kardashians. And I had just interviewed Kim Kardashian 'cause I thought it was fascinating what she was doing online-

Andy Cohen 3:45 Yeah

Kara Swisher 3:45 ... at the time.

Andy Cohen 3:45 Well, you, you figured that out.

Kara Swisher 3:47 Well, early.

Andy Cohen 3:47 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 3:47 And I had actually invited her to this conference, and she was like, "Why do you want me here?" And I was like, "No, no."

Andy Cohen 3:52 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 3:52 "What you're doing is paraso- social." So, so 20 years into The Real Housewives franchise, which really did-

Andy Cohen 3:58 We are in year 20 now, yes

Kara Swisher 4:00 ... that was the genesis of the whole thing-

Andy Cohen 4:01 Yes

Kara Swisher 4:01 ... even though those other shows were the beginnings of what you saw. Um, and you're the face of the Bravo TV network, obviously. And most people see you, you know, as a reality TV celebrity like the people on the franchise. Talk about what set yourself apart from the stars you also created, 'cause you're at the center of it.

Andy Cohen 4:18 Well, right. Uh, I am, you know, I'm not on the shows, so-

Kara Swisher 4:26 Mm-hmm. But you are.

Andy Cohen 4:27 Well, it's funny that you say that. I just had this debate with a writer for Vulture-

Kara Swisher 4:32 Okay

Andy Cohen 4:32 ... who said, "You're a reality star." And I said, "I, I don't think I am." I said, "I think I'm a broadcaster."

Kara Swisher 4:37 You're a reality god.

Andy Cohen 4:38 "I'm a ringleader of sorts."

Kara Swisher 4:41 Right, right.

Andy Cohen 4:41 Which, uh, my publicist hates-

Kara Swisher 4:44 [laughs]

Andy Cohen 4:45 ... that expression. But-

Kara Swisher 4:46 Why?

Andy Cohen 4:46 ... you know, in some sense, it's there. But I mean, look, I'm a producer

Andy Cohen 4:52 and a broadcaster-

Kara Swisher 4:53 Right, right

Andy Cohen 4:53 ... is what I really am.

Kara Swisher 4:54 Right, right.

Andy Cohen 4:55 And-

Kara Swisher 4:55 Right

Andy Cohen 4:55 ... and-

Kara Swisher 4:55 Why do you go away from that idea, that you're, you, yourself are a character?

Andy Cohen 4:58 Well, I mean, I think re- I think... You know what? I think, uh, because I have control of my own edit.

Kara Swisher 5:03 Right. Right.

Andy Cohen 5:04 So I take it as far as I want it to go.

Kara Swisher 5:07 Right. Right.

Andy Cohen 5:07 I was dating someone for a year before anyone found out about it.

Kara Swisher 5:11 Right.

Andy Cohen 5:11 And they found out about it against... It was not on my timing that they found out about it.

Kara Swisher 5:15 Right. Right.

Andy Cohen 5:15 They were going to, but I was gonna be in charge of when I-

Kara Swisher 5:18 Oh, I see. I see

Andy Cohen 5:18 ... when I said it, so.

Kara Swisher 5:20 Right. Right

Andy Cohen 5:20 I like to... I, you know, no one is in charge of my edit but me.

Kara Swisher 5:23 So you're the reality s- star god, really, in some ways.

Andy Cohen 5:26 Well, I don't know about that. That's-

Kara Swisher 5:27 Yeah

Andy Cohen 5:27 ... you know.

Kara Swisher 5:27 Minor god?

Andy Cohen 5:29 Uh, d- uh, say, you know.

Kara Swisher 5:31 Duke?

Andy Cohen 5:32 Uh, yeah, duke.

Kara Swisher 5:33 You're the duke.

Andy Cohen 5:34 Duke. That's nice.

Kara Swisher 5:34 The duke of Icon.

Andy Cohen 5:35 That's nice.

Kara Swisher 5:35 Of Icon.

Andy Cohen 5:35 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 5:36 So, but, but for people to understand, as you did notice, you're the producer. Even though you're the face of it, you work behind the scenes in television. Let's talk about that.

Andy Cohen 5:43 You know, Conan is someone that I've really bonded with about this because he was a writer.

Kara Swisher 5:48 That's right.

Andy Cohen 5:48 And then he wound up hosting-

Kara Swisher 5:52 Right

Andy Cohen 5:52 ... The Tonight Show. Uh, I've been a producer for my whole career.

Kara Swisher 5:56 Right.

Andy Cohen 5:56 Uh, I was at CBS News from 1990 to 2000. And then I was working for Barry launching this cable channel, and then I went and started working for Bravo, um, in, uh, 2004. And so at some point during that run, and I was in charge of programming and we launched all these shows, including The Real Housewives. She knew that I had wanted to be on the air when I was, uh, at CBS years ago.

Andy Cohen 6:25 I'd wanted to be on this, the air. Uh, my friend Jay Karnes, who's still a producer at Sunday Morning, said, "Well, you have this wonky eye, so I don't think you're gonna get on, on the air."

Kara Swisher 6:33 Wonky eye.

Andy Cohen 6:34 Which I do. And um, so I kind of just focused on being behind the scenes.

Kara Swisher 6:39 Behind the scenes.

Andy Cohen 6:40 Which was amazing-

Kara Swisher 6:41 Right, right

Andy Cohen 6:41 ... by the way, and Lauren knew I still wanted to do this. I was writing a blog. I was one of the first TV executives to have a daily blog, not only about the show, but also it was kind of, I was going out every night and-

Kara Swisher 6:53 Right, and what am I doing?

Andy Cohen 6:54 ... doing things.

Kara Swisher 6:54 Right.

Andy Cohen 6:55 And so, um, I was kind of branding myself before that was a thing.

Kara Swisher 7:00 It was-

Andy Cohen 7:00 An annoying thing

Kara Swisher 7:00 ... it was almost like a podcast kind of thing.

Andy Cohen 7:02 Yes.

Kara Swisher 7:02 The same thing, so.

Andy Cohen 7:03 Yes.

Kara Swisher 7:03 But you grew up in St. Louis-

Andy Cohen 7:05 Yes

Kara Swisher 7:05 ... watching soap operas like All My Children.

Andy Cohen 7:07 Yes.

Kara Swisher 7:07 Um, talk to me about those soaps that shaped your idea of entertainment.

Andy Cohen 7:10 Well, I think The Real Housewives is the great American, well, now international, you know, docu-soap opera.

Kara Swisher 7:18 Mm-hmm.

Andy Cohen 7:18 And it's real, and these are real people. But I think if you look at the w- the care that we have taken in producing that show and keeping it on the air, and taking people out and bringing people in and bringing people back and using-

Kara Swisher 7:33 Yeah, characters

Andy Cohen 7:33 ... flashbacks and it's really, it is influenced in part by certainly my love and I think a lot of producers that we have working with us, um, a reverence for the daytime drama-

Kara Swisher 7:46 Right

Andy Cohen 7:46 ... which I love.

Kara Swisher 7:46 My grandmother called them her stories.

Andy Cohen 7:48 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 7:48 She goes, "I'm watching my stories."

Andy Cohen 7:49 Right. Exactly.

Kara Swisher 7:50 Right.

Andy Cohen 7:50 And I loved All My Children, and I, I, I, there was a moment in time where I wanted to be a writer for, for soaps.

Kara Swisher 7:58 Right.

Andy Cohen 7:58 And I came up with a bible of what I th- where it was like a year of storylines of All My Children that I-

Kara Swisher 8:04 You did this when you-

Andy Cohen 8:04 I did it, yeah

Kara Swisher 8:05 ... when you were-

Andy Cohen 8:05 When I was in college.

Kara Swisher 8:06 Wow.

Andy Cohen 8:07 And but I also was super interested in broadcast journalism.

Kara Swisher 8:11 Right. Right.

Andy Cohen 8:11 So I went that way. But the great thing for me there was that I really learned about storytelling in the edit room. I was working for 48 Hours, and those were long form-

Kara Swisher 8:21 Yeah

Andy Cohen 8:21 ... s- character-driven stories where you could pick up little ticks about someone's life in 48 hours-

Kara Swisher 8:30 Right

Andy Cohen 8:30 ... and craft a piece around that person.

Kara Swisher 8:33 Right. Right.

Andy Cohen 8:33 And I will say those, working at CBS News and hitting deadlines, I mean, that was, that was-

Kara Swisher 8:38 Gave you discipline. It gave you-

Andy Cohen 8:39 It gave me not only discipline, but it gave me, uh, the ability to make fast decisions in the field, um, as they related to storytelling and writing.

Kara Swisher 8:50 Right.

Andy Cohen 8:50 I was writing on deadlines. And so this is, I, I'm, I have a new book out called Andy's Bravo Scrapbook, and it's 20 years-

Kara Swisher 8:58 Put it up for the people

Andy Cohen 8:58 ... behind the scenes-

Kara Swisher 8:59 Yeah

Andy Cohen 8:59 ... of the Housewives and the Bravoverse, and these are all photos that I've taken.

Kara Swisher 9:04 Right.

Andy Cohen 9:05 Um-

Kara Swisher 9:05 It reminded me of the SNL book. Do you remember that?

Andy Cohen 9:07 Yes. Yes.

Kara Swisher 9:07 The first season of SNL.

Andy Cohen 9:08 I mean these are-

Kara Swisher 9:09 The book's great

Andy Cohen 9:09 ... photos that I've taken from behind the scenes of Bravo, but I've written, the reason I say it is I've, I've written five other books.

Kara Swisher 9:16 Yes.

Andy Cohen 9:16 And I'm, I am a very deadline oriented person, and I got that from CBS News.

Kara Swisher 9:21 Right.

Andy Cohen 9:21 I mean-

Kara Swisher 9:21 You started as an intern.

Andy Cohen 9:23 S- I was an intern in 1989.

Kara Swisher 9:25 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 9:25 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 9:25 I was an intern at The Washington Post.

Andy Cohen 9:27 Great. I mean you-

Kara Swisher 9:27 Mailroom

Andy Cohen 9:28 ... can't beat it.

Kara Swisher 9:29 No, you can't.

Andy Cohen 9:29 You can't beat it.

Kara Swisher 9:30 You can't.

Andy Cohen 9:30 And then I, I graduated college in '90 and I moved to New York and I was like, "I want to work-

Kara Swisher 9:35 Right

Andy Cohen 9:36 ... at CBS News."

Kara Swisher 9:37 Right.

Andy Cohen 9:37 And a desk assistant left soon after-

Kara Swisher 9:39 Right

Andy Cohen 9:39 ... and I got a job there.

Kara Swisher 9:40 Right. Right. And you, and the tri- the thing you did for Barry was Trio, right?

Andy Cohen 9:43 Trio. Yes.

Kara Swisher 9:43 Right. Yeah.

Andy Cohen 9:44 Yes.

Kara Swisher 9:44 Where did that go?

Andy Cohen 9:45 It was brilliant, but canceled.

Kara Swisher 9:47 So w- what was, you, you, you didn't want to stay in news. Pop culture and entertainment were always your-

Andy Cohen 9:52 You know, I felt l- I, you know what? I had a very great job and standing at CBS News, but um, Barry had become a friend of mine and um, he knew me and he believed in me. And he offered me a job as head of programming at this cable channel he was starting, and he said, "Look," a- and the idea for this pop culture and arts channel was that it would be kind of a more accessible version of PBS, and it would be high and low.

Kara Swisher 10:24 Right.

Andy Cohen 10:24 And my whole career has been high and low.

Kara Swisher 10:26 High and low. Sort of like Tina Brown at Vanity Fair. High and low.

Andy Cohen 10:28 I think so.

Kara Swisher 10:29 [laughs]

Andy Cohen 10:29 I think high and low is the way to be.

Kara Swisher 10:31 The way to go. Yeah. And you liked, you were attracted to the pop culture and its impact on society.

Andy Cohen 10:35 I loved it. And, and I thought, "When am I ever gonna get the chance to learn about programming television from Barry Diller?"

Kara Swisher 10:41 Right.

Andy Cohen 10:41 So I, I, it was a decision-

Kara Swisher 10:42 You, you

Andy Cohen 10:42 ... made for me.

Kara Swisher 10:43 You, one of the things that people thought initially about this stuff was tapping into pe- people's voyeuristic tendencies.

Andy Cohen 10:51 Yes.

Kara Swisher 10:51 Which has been around forever.

Andy Cohen 10:52 Sure.

Kara Swisher 10:53 Like, hello. And of course there was MTV's Real World, Mark Burnett shows like-

Andy Cohen 10:56 Yeah

Kara Swisher 10:56 ... Survivor and The Apprentice. Um, what were, how are you thinking, conceiving of Housewives in that, with that backdrop? 'Cause those had been on previously.

Andy Cohen 11:07 Uh, a man named Scott Dunlop brought us a tape of these women in Orange County.

Kara Swisher 11:12 Mm-hmm.

Andy Cohen 11:13 And they were,

Andy Cohen 11:15 the show was not decided on what it would be, but we thought these women were aspirational in a way we hadn't seen. This inser- insurance agent named Vicki talked about getting her breasts enlarged, yet she was a mom, yet she had a grotto in her backyard. I mean, and her kids were beautiful.

Kara Swisher 11:38 So people are interesting wherever you go.

Andy Cohen 11:39 And the way that they talked to their kids was certainly different than we were talking to our kids on our, on the East Coast. And it was just an, a, an, a window inside a world, and there was something sexy about it. And at that time, Desperate Housewives was a big hit on ABC.

Kara Swisher 11:56 Right.

Andy Cohen 11:56 And we just said, "Let's follow these women and tell their stories." And for me, it was localized in the way that they all lived in the same neighborhood. This is where it was pinging for me.

Kara Swisher 12:06 Right. Real Housewives of.

Andy Cohen 12:07 I was like, "This is like Pine Valley."

Kara Swisher 12:09 Right. Right.

Andy Cohen 12:09 "This is a reality-"

Kara Swisher 12:10 Right.

Andy Cohen 12:10 They all had opinions about the other women. They were all friends. We made the men secondary characters, and the women were in front. It was always gonna be told from their point of view. And that's kind of how it started

Kara Swisher 12:22 So, y- obviously Andy Warhol's known for the quote, "In the future everyone will be famous-

Andy Cohen 12:25 Yeah

Kara Swisher 12:25 ... in five minutes." You've talked a lot about how Warhol's a major inspiration for you.

Andy Cohen 12:29 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 12:29 And you said if he was alive today, part of you thinks he would be painting The, [laughs] The Real Housewives-

Andy Cohen 12:34 Correct

Kara Swisher 12:34 ... and they would be part of the factory.

Andy Cohen 12:35 Right.

Kara Swisher 12:36 Talk about the way he approached fame and why that has impacted you.

Andy Cohen 12:39 Well, I mean, I think that he saw people as superstars. I mean, I think if you look at his superstars, you know, they were unique people from, um, from d- all over who landed in New York,

Andy Cohen 12:53 who were this group of misfits who he wanted to kind of make into stars, but they were already stars to him. So, um, it's wild to me now, 20 years into the Housewives, that they are all international stars.

Kara Swisher 13:07 Oh, yeah. No question. Yeah.

Andy Cohen 13:08 Um, and I think that Warhol also... You-- Look, he predicted reality television.

Kara Swisher 13:15 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 13:15 But he recognized it-

Kara Swisher 13:17 What would he do today? What-

Andy Cohen 13:18 What would he do today, besides painting Housewives?

Kara Swisher 13:21 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 13:21 Well, I don't know, because it's an explosion of everything that he-

Kara Swisher 13:25 Right

Andy Cohen 13:25 ... you know. But, you know, it's interesting because I, from the beginning of the Housewives, have taken a picture f- this is me in the middle, and these are reunion show settings. And I've taken a picture of the women from my vantage point every season of the show.

Kara Swisher 13:40 Right. Wow.

Andy Cohen 13:41 And they're very... These photos-

Kara Swisher 13:42 So it's you sitting there

Andy Cohen 13:43 ... are unretouched.

Kara Swisher 13:44 Right.

Andy Cohen 13:45 And they're very, um, kind of warts and all.

Kara Swisher 13:48 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 13:48 And you can see a lot in the photos.

Kara Swisher 13:51 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 13:51 And they are so pop art to me.

Kara Swisher 13:53 They're kind of freakish, too. Yeah.

Andy Cohen 13:53 They're a little freakish.

Kara Swisher 13:54 Right. Yeah.

Andy Cohen 13:54 They're a little, um, they're a little, um-

Kara Swisher 13:58 Tan

Andy Cohen 13:58 ... bird's eye.

Kara Swisher 14:00 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 14:00 Yeah, no. There's a lot of makeup, there's a lot of extensions, there's a lot happening.

Kara Swisher 14:03 Right.

Andy Cohen 14:04 But they say so much to me, and I think these photos in this book are very pop art. I, I-

Kara Swisher 14:10 Pop art, right

Andy Cohen 14:11 ... I, I really think so.

Kara Swisher 14:12 Right. Right

Andy Cohen 14:12 And I think it, this, this is a very Warholian look at Bravo, I think.

Kara Swisher 14:19 Yeah. Right, in the, in the book itself.

Andy Cohen 14:21 Yes. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 14:21 Yeah. Well, or, or Bravo is Warholian.

Andy Cohen 14:24 Or, right.

Kara Swisher 14:25 Warholian.

Andy Cohen 14:25 Yes.

Kara Swisher 14:26 Now, one of the things, uh, you know, when I, as I said, interviewed Kim Kardashian, everyone was like, "Why are you interviewing her?" I'm like, "She's very important to culture."

Andy Cohen 14:33 Yes. And what kind of feedback did you get on this interview, Kara?

Kara Swisher 14:36 Uh, yes. Well, a, actually good.

Andy Cohen 14:37 Oh, okay, good.

Kara Swisher 14:38 Because, because people thought that... Well, she herself didn't think she was worthy of it, which I was like-

Andy Cohen 14:42 Right

Kara Swisher 14:42 ... "Why wouldn't you be?" Of course, there are always the comments about her not being a feminist, and I was like, "I, I'm not, I think it's a little more complex than that."

Andy Cohen 14:50 Right. Yes.

Kara Swisher 14:50 That's what I thought. Um, and so you said in the past that Real Housewives is a feminist show.

Andy Cohen 14:55 Yes.

Kara Swisher 14:55 And you like to check in with feminists you admire like Lena Dunham and Roxane Gay.

Andy Cohen 14:59 Correct.

Kara Swisher 14:59 Uh, two tough critics, um-

Andy Cohen 15:00 Yes

Kara Swisher 15:00 ... to make sure they're still watching. And you even had Gloria Steinem on Watch What Happens Live-

Andy Cohen 15:05 I did

Kara Swisher 15:05 ... in 2015.

Andy Cohen 15:06 Didn't go my way.

Kara Swisher 15:06 She was down up there. [laughs]

Andy Cohen 15:07 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 15:08 And she, and seemed really bothered when she called the series a minstrel show for women, right? Talk to me about why you think it is. I, I don't agree with her. I, I think it's much more interesting than that.

Andy Cohen 15:18 Well, it is... Look, I think it's very easy to look at clips of the Housewives-

Kara Swisher 15:26 Right

Andy Cohen 15:26 ... and make a generalization that's not great.

Kara Swisher 15:29 Right. Right.

Andy Cohen 15:30 In a whole lot of directions.

Kara Swisher 15:31 Right.

Andy Cohen 15:32 But I think when you watch, first of all, it is the story about being a woman in America over the last 20 years, and the women have talked about being sexually assaulted. They've talked about, uh, divorcing husbands. They've talked about the difficulty of playing the role in a marriage that their husband wants them to be. Through it all, by the way, what... A, an interesting happen, uh, thing has happened to so many of the women that have come on the show, is that they've found their voice on the show, and it's given them a platform.

Kara Swisher 16:09 Changed them.

Andy Cohen 16:09 Some have real- definitely changed them. Some of them have realized, "I was not happy in this marriage, but I didn't see a way out, and I didn't see how I was until I watched myself." Um, some of them... But, but one of the reasons that I think that it's a feminist show is that it has... I, I look at certain women on the shows who own their sexuality, and they own who they are in their opinions and their thoughts. And by the way, some of them are very conservative women who own the way that they feel about, uh, conser- about, you know, their roles in a marriage or, uh, their roles in politics or business. That may not be what I agree with.

Kara Swisher 16:55 Right. Right.

Andy Cohen 16:55 But they're very themselves.

Kara Swisher 16:58 Well, that's kind of what feminism is supposed to be.

Andy Cohen 17:00 Exactly.

Kara Swisher 17:01 Right? I mean, in a lot of ways.

Andy Cohen 17:01 And also the way they own their sexuality. There are women over 50. I feel like the amount of women over 50 that we've given a platform to to say, "You are sexy and you're beautiful and you can do whatever you want, and there's, you don't have to confine by any rules that a man makes. You should make-

Kara Swisher 17:21 Right. Right

Andy Cohen 17:21 ... your own rules and you do your own thing and don't let a man define you," that plays out season after season.

Kara Swisher 17:27 Yeah, it's interesting 'cause I have a lot of friend, lesbian friends who I would think wouldn't have liked it, and I'm always surprised. They love it. They're, like, not bothered by it. It depends on who you are.

Andy Cohen 17:35 Absolutely.

Kara Swisher 17:35 I, to me, I don't know why you'd get bothered by someone who wants to do that-

Andy Cohen 17:38 Yes

Kara Swisher 17:38 ... or not.

Andy Cohen 17:39 It's-

Kara Swisher 17:39 And I do, I do see the idea of if this is the only vision of a woman.

Andy Cohen 17:43 Yes. Exactly.

Kara Swisher 17:44 Right? Right? Like-

Andy Cohen 17:44 And there can't be, they can't speak for all women.

Kara Swisher 17:46 And, and the excessive body changing is, but it's still happening. Like, that-

Andy Cohen 17:50 That's, that is also ki- a reflection of where we are as a culture. I mean-

Kara Swisher 17:53 Right, exactly. Do you think it presaged what, you know, how everyone became so performative online? Because now people go... I mean, the Housewives don't even seem extreme anymore.

Andy Cohen 18:03 I know.

Kara Swisher 18:03 [laughs] What do they have to do?

Andy Cohen 18:04 I, I think there are various factors to that.

Kara Swisher 18:07 You're gonna have to have some executions on there.

Andy Cohen 18:08 I think that the, I think the president hasn't helped matters-

Kara Swisher 18:11 Right. Right. We'll get to him

Andy Cohen 18:11 ... in the online thing.

Kara Swisher 18:13 Right. Right.

Andy Cohen 18:13 Um, but-

Kara Swisher 18:14 It was headed that way anyway

Andy Cohen 18:16 ... yeah. Yes.

Kara Swisher 18:17 Mm-hmm.

Andy Cohen 18:18 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 18:18 So, but, uh, being on camera, your show, Watch What Happens Live, started as a digital series to start with.

Andy Cohen 18:23 Started as a digital series.

Kara Swisher 18:24 And it was sort of raw and chaotic in tw- 2009. I went back and looked at one. Um, talk about the show's evolved as a- ... cultural phenomena and why it marries with it

Andy Cohen 18:33 It started as an after show online in like 2007 or something, or '06. And it was on after Top Chef and Project Runway. And now it... And then in 2009, uh, I started doing it once a week, and then twice a week, and then we got, and then we got taken to five days a week. I think it is, um... The, the interesting thing is my show has not changed very much in 17 years. I mean, it's very-

Kara Swisher 19:03 It's like Graham Norton

Andy Cohen 19:05 ... it's interactive.

Kara Swisher 19:05 Little like Gra- yeah.

Andy Cohen 19:05 It's live. Graham Norton was a big influence.

Kara Swisher 19:08 Mm-hmm. Clearly.

Andy Cohen 19:08 It's unscripted. It is, we don't pre-interview our guests. I had Rob Lowe on last night, uh, for a half hour, and he was like, "God, that was so fun." And I s- and I remind people-

Kara Swisher 19:19 I hate the pre-interview.

Andy Cohen 19:21 Yes.

Kara Swisher 19:21 I decline them all.

Andy Cohen 19:22 I hate the pre-interview.

Kara Swisher 19:23 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 19:24 It sucks.

Kara Swisher 19:25 No.

Andy Cohen 19:25 And-

Kara Swisher 19:26 One time Steve Jobs was like, "Are you gonna talk, give me the questions?" I was like, "I'm not."

Andy Cohen 19:29 Right.

Kara Swisher 19:29 "Enjoy yourself."

Andy Cohen 19:30 Right.

Kara Swisher 19:30 "For not-"

Andy Cohen 19:31 Let's have a conversation.

Kara Swisher 19:32 Yeah, yeah.

Andy Cohen 19:32 I mean, it's so much more interesting.

Kara Swisher 19:33 Yeah, especially celebrities-

Andy Cohen 19:34 Yes

Kara Swisher 19:34 ... which he's a lot, I mean.

Andy Cohen 19:35 Exactly, and they come in, and they're, there are m- many celebrities who are scared to do

Andy Cohen 19:40 my show because it's too dangerous for them because they know I'm gonna go there. But I want people to leave happy-

Kara Swisher 19:47 Mm-hmm

Andy Cohen 19:47 ... is the thing.

Kara Swisher 19:48 Yeah, yeah. It does have a lot of Graham Norton feel-

Andy Cohen 19:50 Yes

Kara Swisher 19:50 ... to it in a lot of ways.

Andy Cohen 19:51 Yeah, yeah.

Kara Swisher 19:51 Who I think is brilliant.

Andy Cohen 19:52 Me too.

Kara Swisher 19:52 Who else I think is brilliant.

Andy Cohen 19:53 Me too.

Kara Swisher 19:53 I, I'm also stalking him. [upbeat music] Support for this show comes from The Guardian. Trying to locate news sources that reliably separate fact from fiction can seem like looking for a needle in a haystack these days. Social media feeds, cable news, and subscription-based news outlets might be able to give you one version of the news, but not in the way that you need. You want news fast, but slow enough to actually absorb the information. Stateside with Kai Wright and Carter Sherman is here to do just that. The podcast tries to slow down the news and wrestle with the questions regarding the world at large at your own pace. Three times a week, hosts Kai Wright and Carter Sherman bring their expertise together to showcase different and engaging perspectives regarding the world today. They will use their collective knowledge to discuss the news, international affairs, climate, culture, sports, lifestyle, fashion, and wellness. Plus, The Guardian wants to emphasize they're not billionaire-owned, meaning they're free to report the whole picture without interference. Go to theguardian.com/stateside to learn more and listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube starting May 13th. Um, I want to talk a little bit about the, the, the difficulties of this show. First, like reality TV, it's not without its controversy. In 2024, a former Real Housewife filed a lawsuit against you and Bravo alleging the show created hostile work environments where drug use and drinking were encouraged. A lawsuit is headed to trial, though you and the network refiled a motion to dismiss. Um, there's a whole range of, of things around behaviors on the show, and then of course the unionization effort by Bethenny Frankel of all people, um, to unionize the Housewives. And you've differentiated reality stars from actors saying, quote, "You don't go to school to become a reality star. Reality stars typically have other jobs." So talk about these things. I mean, obviously you run a business too.

Andy Cohen 21:37 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 21:37 I don't think people realize it.

Andy Cohen 21:40 Well, I mean, w- what specifically do you want me to talk

Andy Cohen 21:43 about?

Kara Swisher 21:43 Well-

Andy Cohen 21:43 That was a big-

Kara Swisher 21:44 ... the, the lawsuit first

Andy Cohen 21:44 ... that was-

Kara Swisher 21:44 The lawsuit.

Andy Cohen 21:45 Well, I can't really speak to that. I will say there are s- I am so proud of the stories that we've told of the women who have either come into the show sober or gotten sober on the show, and there are so many examples of really incredible stories of sobriety on all of our shows. And I would argue that we really celebrate that. And if you see someone who's had too much to drink, I don't think it's an aspirational occurrence.

Kara Swisher 22:18 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. On the show?

Andy Cohen 22:19 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 22:20 Where does this lawsuit go to?

Andy Cohen 22:23 I don't know. You gotta ask.

Kara Swisher 22:24 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 22:24 You know? Yeah.

Kara Swisher 22:25 You don't know, and you can't comment on it.

Andy Cohen 22:26 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 22:26 What about, um, the, the f- the unionization? Do you think these people deserve to be union?

Andy Cohen 22:30 No, I-

Kara Swisher 22:30 There's a lot of them now.

Andy Cohen 22:31 I think-

Kara Swisher 22:32 How many Housewives do you have at this point?

Andy Cohen 22:33 We have a lot of Housewives.

Kara Swisher 22:35 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 22:35 They are, um, they are compensated really well. And I think that there are a whole list of reasons why I could tell you that I'm against that and why it all fell apart. I mean, most people who are on reality shows are on for one season.

Kara Swisher 22:56 Right.

Andy Cohen 22:56 Most reality shows-

Kara Swisher 22:57 They're not actors

Andy Cohen 22:58 ... are competition shows where someone are coming on trying to cook or sing on American Idol. So most of them are, um, compensated as such, and you're going on

Andy Cohen 23:10 to win a contest. So that's a, a huge percentage of the shows. The shows where you're on for a long period of time, the longer you're on a show, the more money you make on the show. And the money that's being made on these shows is really good, and also you're given a platform to sell-

Kara Swisher 23:31 Offline you can do a lot of things

Andy Cohen 23:32 ... any variety of thing. I mean, you can actually, if you work it correctly, you can wind up with an-

Kara Swisher 23:39 Well, Bethenny Frankel

Andy Cohen 23:40 ... incredible platform. Right.

Kara Swisher 23:42 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 23:42 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 23:42 Skinnygirl, right, that she creates. That's separate from you all. Is that-

Andy Cohen 23:46 Yes.

Kara Swisher 23:46 That's separate from you.

Andy Cohen 23:47 Yeah, yeah.

Kara Swisher 23:47 So you're saying you're giving them a platform. This is a contest, and they're not actors, essentially.

Andy Cohen 23:51 They're, that's, that's, that's three things.

Kara Swisher 23:54 Right.

Andy Cohen 23:55 Yes.

Kara Swisher 23:55 Right.

Andy Cohen 23:55 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 23:55 Do you, does it take away from your show or in weird ways-

Andy Cohen 23:59 Does what take away?

Kara Swisher 23:59 Does all these, the, the, the sort of the attack, th- those two lawsuits?

Andy Cohen 24:02 No. I mean, look, I think that in, uh, the hundreds of people that we've put on television and have had positive experiences with the shows, I think these are two examples of people saying, "I didn't." And, um, everyone has a story and an experience. But I would say overwhelmingly we've got... You know, BravoCon we do in Vegas, we've got 30,000 people going to absolutely, uh- idolize the almost 200 Bravolebrities that go and take part in it.

Kara Swisher 24:36 Bravolebrities?

Andy Cohen 24:37 Yes, Bravolebrities, Kara.

Kara Swisher 24:39 Okay. [laughs]

Andy Cohen 24:39 And they are able to sell things at booths.

Kara Swisher 24:42 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 24:42 They are able to-

Kara Swisher 24:43 You're like a giant Star Trek convention

Andy Cohen 24:44 ... yes, I mean, they're... You know, yeah.

Kara Swisher 24:46 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 24:46 I mean, and they're all compensated to be there.

Kara Swisher 24:48 Right. Right.

Andy Cohen 24:50 So I, I would say it's an actually an incredible universe that we've created that makes a lot of people happy, including the people that are on the shows.

Kara Swisher 24:59 When you think of the criticisms leveled at you, what do you think is a fair one that's changed, that you've changed yourself? Like, a fair one, you're like, "Hmm."

Andy Cohen 25:06 That's a good question. Well, I mean, I've had criticisms about, uh, sometimes the way I interview people or, um, things like that. I mean-

Kara Swisher 25:16 Like what?

Andy Cohen 25:17 ... criticisms about me on the radio interrupting too much-

Kara Swisher 25:22 Oh, yeah. I get that

Andy Cohen 25:23 ... or, um, you know, things like that, which I think are always constructive and great. I feel I'm really proud of the way that we have worked with the people on Bravo. I'll stand 10 toes down on, uh, our entire d- on the 20-plus years that I've been with this company, uh, and the shows we've produced and the relationships that we've had and the experiences that people have had on them.

Kara Swisher 25:55 What do you... When you think about what you find the most successful of the ones on Bravo, like looking

Kara Swisher 26:00 through this scrapbook, besides the Housewife shows, which is sort of the se- the fulcrum presumably-

Andy Cohen 26:04 Right

Kara Swisher 26:04 ... is there something that you're particularly proud of or?

Andy Cohen 26:07 Well, I mean, I'm proud of Below Deck, uh, which is, uh, I think-

Kara Swisher 26:11 People love Below Deck

Andy Cohen 26:11 ... the perfect reality show. I mean, it's a workplace drama. People are actually paying to be charter guests on these boats.

Kara Swisher 26:19 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 26:19 And the, they're-

Kara Swisher 26:20 There's always a drunk, drunk lady

Andy Cohen 26:21 ... real deadlines.

Kara Swisher 26:22 There's always a drunk lady.

Andy Cohen 26:23 Uh, there's barely any HR on the boat, so there are the, you know, the crew's hooking up. The, the guests are trying to hook up together.

Kara Swisher 26:29 Yeah, it's like Love Boat lost at sea.

Andy Cohen 26:30 There's a lot happening.

Kara Swisher 26:31 Yeah. Yeah.

Andy Cohen 26:32 Yes. And Love Boat, it is like Love Boat, or it's like Downton Abbey, you know, on a boat. Um-

Kara Swisher 26:37 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah

Andy Cohen 26:38 ... so it's really... It's, it's a really fun show, and it's a huge show. There are, um, several spinoffs of that going. And Top Chef remains, you know, the leader in food television. I'm really proud of that. Um, and Vanderpump Rules had an amazing 10-year run. I mean, Summer House is peaking right now. There are some great unscripted shows.

Kara Swisher 27:00 Is there one thing that didn't work that you were like, "Oh, I can't believe it"?

Andy Cohen 27:02 Oh, there's so many things that didn't, didn't work.

Kara Swisher 27:04 That you liked.

Andy Cohen 27:05 Well, you know what? There was a show called, um... There was a show called NYC Prep that I was a-

Kara Swisher 27:12 Oh, it was like a prep school

Andy Cohen 27:13 ... that, it was a-

Kara Swisher 27:14 So, uh-

Andy Cohen 27:14 ... prep school kids in New York City

Kara Swisher 27:15 ... you're doing all the shows Gossip Girl is in

Andy Cohen 27:17 ... it was real-life Gossip Girl.

Kara Swisher 27:18 Like Shards.

Andy Cohen 27:19 And we did it for one season.

Kara Swisher 27:21 Right.

Andy Cohen 27:21 And, uh, we couldn't do it again. All of the schools were like, "Wait, what?"

Kara Swisher 27:27 [laughs]

Andy Cohen 27:27 And the parents were like, "Wait, what?" I mean, we did it for one season. It's a great show.

Kara Swisher 27:32 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 27:32 It's very beloved in the canon.

Kara Swisher 27:34 Yeah. In the canon.

Andy Cohen 27:35 Yes.

Kara Swisher 27:35 Is there anything that, like, really upset y- That one upset you it didn't work. It just, they couldn't do it again.

Andy Cohen 27:40 Um, right.

Kara Swisher 27:40 Once you let the cat out of the prep school bag, I mean.

Andy Cohen 27:42 Um, we... The first show I produced for Bravo was, it was my conceit that all the

Andy Cohen 27:47 big stars on TV were reality stars.

Kara Swisher 27:49 Uh-huh.

Andy Cohen 27:49 So we brought back Battle of the Network Stars-

Kara Swisher 27:51 Oh, I love that show

Andy Cohen 27:52 ... from the '70s.

Kara Swisher 27:53 I didn't know you did that.

Andy Cohen 27:54 And we shot it in Pepperdine, and we did it. We had the networks against each other.

Kara Swisher 27:57 Pepperdine University.

Andy Cohen 27:58 Yes.

Kara Swisher 27:58 Live from Los Angeles.

Andy Cohen 27:59 Yes.

Kara Swisher 27:59 It's Pepperdine Uni-

Andy Cohen 28:00 And we put people from Project Runway against American Idols and Survivors-

Kara Swisher 28:06 Right

Andy Cohen 28:06 ... and all these people, and it was just a bomb.

Kara Swisher 28:09 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 28:09 And I was so sure it was gonna be a big hit, but it wasn't.

Kara Swisher 28:11 Well, that was a thing of the '70s 'cause you wore those short shorts.

Andy Cohen 28:14 I know. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 28:14 You can't really do that today.

Andy Cohen 28:15 I know.

Kara Swisher 28:16 It wasn't as good at the time.

Andy Cohen 28:17 I know it wasn't. Yes.

Kara Swisher 28:17 The things they subjected those TV stars to.

Andy Cohen 28:20 If it had aired on, uh, another channel, if it had aired on E!, I think it would've been-

Kara Swisher 28:25 Oh, you do?

Andy Cohen 28:25 ... successful.

Kara Swisher 28:26 Right. Right.

Andy Cohen 28:27 Yes.

Kara Swisher 28:27 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 28:27 Yes.

Kara Swisher 28:27 Is there any that you never made that you wanted to make?

Andy Cohen 28:31 Um, you know, Drag Race I wish we would've made. It seemed like Project Runway to us-

Kara Swisher 28:39 Right

Andy Cohen 28:39 ... at the ti- You know?

Kara Swisher 28:40 It was proposed to you?

Andy Cohen 28:41 I think it may have been.

Kara Swisher 28:43 Right.

Andy Cohen 28:43 Yeah, I think it may have been.

Kara Swisher 28:44 And you thought, "No."

Andy Cohen 28:44 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 28:45 It just doesn't work.

Andy Cohen 28:46 Who's the sticker on your computer? Who is this w-

Kara Swisher 28:48 Oh, that's Betty White saying, "Fuck you."

Andy Cohen 28:49 Oh, that's Betty White.

Kara Swisher 28:50 Saying you're staring at. Yeah.

Andy Cohen 28:51 It looks like Agnes Nixon who created All My Children actually.

Kara Swisher 28:54 Well, okay.

Andy Cohen 28:55 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 28:55 All right.

Andy Cohen 28:55 There you go.

Kara Swisher 28:55 Now it's Betty White.

Andy Cohen 28:56 Yes. Yes.

Kara Swisher 28:56 You know, 'cause she's the patron saint of all women these days.

Andy Cohen 28:59 Yes, she is.

Kara Swisher 28:59 She'd be good on a celebrity show-

Andy Cohen 29:01 Yes

Kara Swisher 29:01 ... if you did today.

Andy Cohen 29:02 Yes.

Kara Swisher 29:03 A lot of those people would.

29:04 Ripple has been powering modern finance for a decade. We're leading the charge to bridge the gap between existing financial systems and the future of finance. You can have it all: legacy, stability, and digital innovation, systems that work with your other systems. Because with the right partner, the question isn't crypto or traditional finance. The question is simply why choose? A new standard of modern finance. It's happening with Ripple. For informational purposes only. Availability of products can vary and may be provided by different Ripple entities.

29:34 So let's talk about the broader landscape 'cause you talked about a lot of things. Um, 'cause you're doing a lot of other things besides doing this.

Andy Cohen 29:39 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 29:40 You're-

Andy Cohen 29:40 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 29:40 I'm a busy person, but you're incredibly busy. Um, obviously you have your matchup with Anderson Cooper.

Andy Cohen 29:45 Yes.

Kara Swisher 29:45 You've been friends for decades.

Andy Cohen 29:46 By the way, Anderson and I are in DC October 10th.

Kara Swisher 29:50 Uh-huh.

Andy Cohen 29:51 And Philly October, or November 14th.

Kara Swisher 29:54 What are you doing there?

Andy Cohen 29:54 And we do, uh... We were on tour for four years. We were in about 60 cities over four years.

Kara Swisher 30:01 What? W-

Andy Cohen 30:01 We talk, tell stories, show a lot of clips, and, uh, it's a really fun night. It's like New Year's Eve live on stage-

Kara Swisher 30:12 Right

Andy Cohen 30:12 ... basically.

Kara Swisher 30:12 Right. Right. Right

Andy Cohen 30:13 Um, and it's, it's a really great fun night out.

Kara Swisher 30:16 It's called AC2. AC-

Andy Cohen 30:17 It's called AC2.

Kara Swisher 30:18 AC2.

Andy Cohen 30:18 And we've been doing it for years.

Kara Swisher 30:20 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 30:20 I've known Anderson since the early '90s. And of course we're, this year's gonna be our 10th year doing New Year's Eve.

Kara Swisher 30:26 Yeah. Yeah, you replaced Kathy Griffin in 2017.

Andy Cohen 30:29 Yes. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 30:29 You became the most iconic odd couple. Um,

Kara Swisher 30:32 t- talk a little bit about that.

Andy Cohen 30:33 You know, we've been friends, as I said, for a very long time, and one of the dynamics of our friendship is that I just, you know, give him a lot of crap and make him giggle. And I not only know how to push his buttons in that regard, but also I, I feel like with him, I know how to put quarters in him to get the best out of him. And, um, I love him so much. He's a dear friend of mine, but I also find him incredibly, you know, smart. He, he's the rare person in a l- lost breed of people. And, um, he's got a lot of class, he's got a lot of loyalty, he's got a lot of great stories, he's got a lot of curiosity. He knows everybody. He is one of the most respective jour- respected journalists still on television in a moment where everyone's so divisive-

Kara Swisher 31:25 Right

Andy Cohen 31:25 ... and divided.

Kara Swisher 31:26 He's a very kind man.

Andy Cohen 31:26 He's managed to keep... And he's a very kind man.

Kara Swisher 31:28 He really is.

Andy Cohen 31:29 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 31:29 He is. You do bring out something in him. It's a really interesting, these, these live ones you've done since what year?

Andy Cohen 31:36 Our tour?

Kara Swisher 31:37 Yeah, our tour.

Andy Cohen 31:37 We were doing it, I think, since like 2016 or '17.

Kara Swisher 31:41 So a long time.

Andy Cohen 31:42 Then we stopped because we had kids. And then I begged him a, like a year ago. I was like, "Dude, we're, you know-

Kara Swisher 31:48 Yeah

Andy Cohen 31:49 ... we're leaving money on the table."

Kara Swisher 31:50 Right. Yeah.

Andy Cohen 31:50 "And also we had so much fun."

Kara Swisher 31:52 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 31:52 "We could go somewhere together."

Kara Swisher 31:54 Right.

Andy Cohen 31:54 So-

Kara Swisher 31:54 And have a discussion

Andy Cohen 31:55 ... kind of-

Kara Swisher 31:55 See your fans, and see your fans.

Andy Cohen 31:56 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 31:57 So one of the things that's interesting about both of you, now Anderson's part of, uh, Warner, W- Warner-

Andy Cohen 32:03 Yes

Kara Swisher 32:03 ... Discovery, which is merging with Paramount now.

Andy Cohen 32:06 Yes.

Kara Swisher 32:07 You work for the other big media company, NBC Universal.

Andy Cohen 32:09 Yes.

Kara Swisher 32:09 Has its own big shifts with the spin-off of Versant. Comcast now has-

Andy Cohen 32:12 Yep

Kara Swisher 32:12 ... plans to spin off NBC yet again into a publicly traded company. I wanna talk about that because you're an en- I'm an entrepreneurial-

Andy Cohen 32:20 Yes

Kara Swisher 32:20 ... news person. You are an entrepreneurial entertainment/news person.

Andy Cohen 32:25 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 32:25 Talk about that, what's happening now. How do you look at it as someone who is a producer and who revered, th- like CBS, the way I revered-

Andy Cohen 32:33 Yes

Kara Swisher 32:33 ... the Washington Post, the New York Times.

Andy Cohen 32:35 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 32:35 But I'm not there anymore.

Andy Cohen 32:36 I mean, I think that it creates less individuality and less competition, and, you know, I'm down about it. I'm down about it.

Kara Swisher 32:48 What does it do for someone like you who's a producer?

Andy Cohen 32:50 Well, I mean, for me, I happen to work for the best brand in television, and one of the few brands that actually mean something to anyone anymore. So I am so thrilled to have my ship anchored, uh, at Bravo, I mean, and at NBC Universal. So,

Andy Cohen 33:09 um, I'm f- you know, look, for, for a, for a channel like Bravo, uh, NBCU has, uh, tripled down on Bravo. Every time they split the company, they keep Bravo-

Kara Swisher 33:22 Right

Andy Cohen 33:22 ... uh, with us. I think that this Peacock YouTube deal is gonna be incredible, uh, not only for Peacock, but then for Bravo, which is a huge driver for Peacock.

Kara Swisher 33:34 Right. Right.

Andy Cohen 33:34 Um, and w- Peacock is launching this Bravoverse, which I am, um, hosting, uh, that is absolutely gonna be an incredible universe-

Kara Swisher 33:45 So operating-

Andy Cohen 33:46 ... for Bravo fans to, to, to get lost in.

Kara Swisher 33:48 Like, what I mean to say, how do you, uh, like in addition to your work at Bravo and CNN, you curate and host shows, the SiriusXM channel-

Andy Cohen 33:54 Yeah

Kara Swisher 33:54 ... Radio Andy. Recently took over Howard Stern's Channel 101.

Andy Cohen 33:57 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 33:58 A lot of programming. You've been running it for over 10 years.

Andy Cohen 34:01 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 34:02 You're putting a lot of stuff-

Andy Cohen 34:02 Eggs in different baskets

Kara Swisher 34:03 ... eggs in many dis-

Andy Cohen 34:04 Yes.

Kara Swisher 34:04 Talk about that, 'cause I think about that a lot.

Andy Cohen 34:06 Well, I'm a person who, if I am given the opportunity to add to the portfolio of things that I'm doing, and it's something that's interesting to me, I say absolutely yes. And so Anderson and I, this tour, it started at a time when I didn't have kids, and we could go-

Kara Swisher 34:27 Right

Andy Cohen 34:27 ... on the road 11 weekends of the year. With, um, the radio, I was offered a talk channel

Andy Cohen 34:34 11 years ago. At that point, I had left being in charge of programming at Bravo, so I was like, wow, I can not only program this radio channel, but it can be the other cha... It was almost like the anti-Bravo for me.

Kara Swisher 34:47 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 34:47 Dan Rather, Sandra Bernhard has a show on it, um, Bevy Smith, um, Jon Alter. So it became kind of this, I could do long form interviews with authors, and today I interviewed Stallone about his new book for an hour. And so it just, for me, um, it, it, it burn, it makes my endorphins go in a whole other area than producing the Housewives or-

Kara Swisher 35:15 Yeah

Andy Cohen 35:15 ... hosting Watch What Happens Live.

Kara Swisher 35:16 For, uh, again, back to the business thing, people don't think of you that way, but it's very clear you're an entrepreneur-

Andy Cohen 35:21 Yeah

Kara Swisher 35:21 ... in that regard.

Andy Cohen 35:22 Yes.

Kara Swisher 35:23 How do, when you decide what to do, what i- if you had to give advice, real, 'cause not everyone can do it. Like when I, everyone who leaves major places comes to me, like I should run a-

Andy Cohen 35:33 Right

Kara Swisher 35:33 ... I should run a advice service.

Andy Cohen 35:34 Yes. Yes.

Kara Swisher 35:35 And the only thing I, two things I tell them, some people aren't gonna make it. They just aren't. Like Don Lemon when he got fired, I was like, "Here's what you do."

Andy Cohen 35:41 Okay.

Kara Swisher 35:41 Like that kind of stuff.

Andy Cohen 35:42 Yes.

Kara Swisher 35:42 Or whoever it happens to be.

Andy Cohen 35:43 And that worked.

Kara Swisher 35:43 It worked.

Andy Cohen 35:44 Yes.

Kara Swisher 35:44 'Cause I knew it-

Andy Cohen 35:45 Yes

Kara Swisher 35:45 ... 'cause it was like that. But in a lot of ways, a lot of people aren't equipped for that, and y- you, you are attached to a big organization but are doing entrepreneurial things.

Andy Cohen 35:53 Well, look, I've been lucky because usually when you're attached to an organization, you're only attached to that organization.

Kara Swisher 35:59 Right. That's correct.

Andy Cohen 36:00 Um, it was be- it was amazing to me that I was able, with Sirius, that's all audio, so that's not video.

Kara Swisher 36:10 Right.

Andy Cohen 36:11 So I'm, I am working in an audio medium. I now have-

Kara Swisher 36:14 Keep-

Andy Cohen 36:14 ... a music channel also there.

Kara Swisher 36:16 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 36:16 With the CNN thing, um, that was a bit of an anomaly.

Kara Swisher 36:21 Mm-hmm.

Andy Cohen 36:21 But, um, NBCU knew my relationship with Anderson.

Kara Swisher 36:27 And gave you it, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Andy Cohen 36:27 And they gave it to me. And I made an argument to them that I think was very correct, that this would be great promotion for me and thus for them-

Kara Swisher 36:36 Well, they, people don't see that

Andy Cohen 36:36 ... for Watch What Happens Live.

Kara Swisher 36:37 So I say that to a lot of people. Like, "What do you care if I'm more famous over here?"

Andy Cohen 36:41 Yes.

Kara Swisher 36:41 Like-

Andy Cohen 36:42 Well, some people-

Kara Swisher 36:42 Which is interesting. I think you need to be promiscuous in the media.

Andy Cohen 36:45 I agree.

Kara Swisher 36:45 You and I both like being so.

Andy Cohen 36:46 I agree.

Kara Swisher 36:47 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 36:47 Yes, I love it. Uh, I agree, and thankfully I had a boss that understood that and, you know, I, I feel like- If you can make a good argument for something. And also, by the way, I've gone to them with many things and said, "Hey, how do you feel about this?" And they're like, "Yeah, maybe not." And I say, "Fine." I mean, so I also trust that they're looking out for me and they're, they, there, I have enough other stuff going on that-

Kara Swisher 37:17 Mm-hmm

Andy Cohen 37:18 ... I, I'm, I'm high, I'm very happy.

Kara Swisher 37:20 Yeah, you're very multi-

Andy Cohen 37:21 Yeah

Kara Swisher 37:21 ... multi-hyphenate-

Andy Cohen 37:22 Yeah, yeah

Kara Swisher 37:22 ... in a lot of ways.

Andy Cohen 37:23 Yes.

Kara Swisher 37:23 And it's hard to do, and I think you have to be to be a successful in media today, be multi-hyphenate.

Andy Cohen 37:27 Absolutely. But also, you have to know you can take it on and it's not gonna kill you, and I now have two kids.

Kara Swisher 37:33 Right.

Andy Cohen 37:33 And I understand what my time commitment to everything is, and I'm a, I'm a highly productive person.

Kara Swisher 37:41 When you're on it.

Andy Cohen 37:41 And I meet my deadlines-

Kara Swisher 37:42 Mm-hmm

Andy Cohen 37:43 ... and I know what has to be done.

Kara Swisher 37:44 Right. So speaking of that, every episode we get an ex, question from an outside expert.

Andy Cohen 37:49 Oh, good.

Kara Swisher 37:49 Here is yours.

Speaker 37:50 Hey, Andy Cohen, it's your pal Rosie O'Donnell. How are you? I miss you. Um, I got a question for you for the Kara Swisher show. The question is, how has being a father changed your life and career? Expand, would you? I hope to see you soon, Andy. Take care. Bye.

Andy Cohen 38:12 I love Rosie.

Kara Swisher 38:13 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 38:13 Um, I mean, it's changed everything. Um, it's certainly changed... I mean, I have a little bit of an edit button where I say, "Okay, don't say that, you're a dad."

Kara Swisher 38:30 Right.

Andy Cohen 38:31 But I mean-

Kara Swisher 38:32 How big is that button?

Andy Cohen 38:33 I was gonna say.

Kara Swisher 38:33 It's a very little button.

Andy Cohen 38:34 I mean, the other day they put these, like, electric

Andy Cohen 38:37 panties on me, and I gave the guest on Watch What Happens Live the controller. Every time-

Kara Swisher 38:41 [laughs]

Andy Cohen 38:41 ... they didn't wanna answer a question, they could pause-

Kara Swisher 38:43 It's a no button

Andy Cohen 38:44 ... or something like that. So I mean-

Kara Swisher 38:46 Yeah

Andy Cohen 38:46 ... you know, I still push the envelope.

Kara Swisher 38:48 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 38:48 But I mean, look, it's made... I think that, uh, v- viewers have noticed on reunion shows that my dad self comes out a lot as I speak to sometimes either the Housewives or to people, you know, some of the younger people that are on-

Kara Swisher 39:06 Right

Andy Cohen 39:06 ... some of these shows-

Kara Swisher 39:07 Right, right

Andy Cohen 39:07 ... like Summer House or Next Gen NYC. But, um, I would say, I mean, look, it's just made my priorities totally different.

Kara Swisher 39:17 Mm-hmm.

Andy Cohen 39:17 And sometimes my agent will call me saying, like, "I really want you to get this thing," or whatever, and I, I say, "I'm good. Like, I'm good." I just, I view everything as if I have to leave the city to do something, it's gonna be time away from my kids. In the year leading up to having Ben, I said yes to everything. I'm gonna host the Attitude Awards in London. I'm gonna be the, uh, international ambassador for WorldPride in Jerusal- like, yes, yes, I'll do it.

Kara Swisher 39:48 Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Andy Cohen 39:48 I'll do it. Because I was like, "You are about to be tethered into a different life, and so go do this now." So I do feel like I'm so glad that I got to, you know, just be famous for 10 years before I had kids so that now I can just be famous at home and not have to go to every party and all that stuff.

Kara Swisher 40:10 What kind of dad are you, would you say?

Andy Cohen 40:12 I think I'm a, I, I give myself a really good grade.

Kara Swisher 40:15 I'm glad you said that.

Andy Cohen 40:16 Thank you.

Kara Swisher 40:16 I say that about my parenting-

Andy Cohen 40:18 I think, I-

Kara Swisher 40:18 ... all the time, and people are like, "You shouldn't say that." I'm like, "Why?"

Andy Cohen 40:20 Why?

Kara Swisher 40:21 Exactly.

Andy Cohen 40:21 What, I'm a bad dad?

Kara Swisher 40:22 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 40:22 I mean, no.

Kara Swisher 40:23 I'm a bad dad. [laughs]

Andy Cohen 40:24 Um, I'm very rule oriented. I'm very schedule oriented. I communicate with my children super clearly. Um, I, my mom is reactionary, like, everything, and I would just push her envelopes to get her to have a big reaction. So I am prone to a big reaction, but I also, I love deep talks with my kids. They're seven and four. Um, they will, I have already told Ben, I already made a deal with the guy at the bagel store that he's gonna work there when he's like-

Kara Swisher 40:55 Oh, great

Andy Cohen 40:55 ... 15 or 16.

Kara Swisher 40:56 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 40:56 We have the deal. I got him John Mayer tickets because I want him to know, like-

Kara Swisher 41:00 Yeah

Andy Cohen 41:00 ... I'm serious about this.

Kara Swisher 41:02 Right.

Andy Cohen 41:02 'Cause it's hard, by the way.

Kara Swisher 41:03 Right.

Andy Cohen 41:03 When I was young-

Kara Swisher 41:04 Yeah

Andy Cohen 41:04 ... I had so many jobs-

Kara Swisher 41:06 Yeah

Andy Cohen 41:06 ... growing up.

Kara Swisher 41:06 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 41:06 I mean, I want my kids to work. Uh-

Kara Swisher 41:08 My kids do

Andy Cohen 41:09 ... they, you know, my son is really interested in how money works and how does it play in and whatever, and I'm really being very-

Kara Swisher 41:19 Right

Andy Cohen 41:19 ... um, regimented about the Tooth Fairy and things like that.

Kara Swisher 41:23 Yeah, good stuff.

Andy Cohen 41:24 Because I'm seeing crazy things happening around him in New York City.

Kara Swisher 41:27 Meaning what?

Andy Cohen 41:29 Meaning kids that get $20 from the Tooth Fairy, or $10.

Kara Swisher 41:32 Mm-hmm.

Andy Cohen 41:33 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 41:33 What is your Tooth Fairy number?

Andy Cohen 41:34 $2.

Kara Swisher 41:35 Two? That's low.

Andy Cohen 41:37 Yeah. $2 bill.

Kara Swisher 41:38 Mine is five.

Andy Cohen 41:38 Okay.

Kara Swisher 41:39 All right.

Andy Cohen 41:39 $2 bill is a special thing.

Kara Swisher 41:41 You're right.

Andy Cohen 41:41 It's very rare.

Kara Swisher 41:42 That's a good idea.

Andy Cohen 41:43 Yeah, I have an envelope full of them in my closet.

Kara Swisher 41:44 Inflation might do that. It's interesting. Well, you know, it is interesting 'cause, like, kids do need that kind of structure, although you have a big life too at the same time.

Andy Cohen 41:52 Yes.

Kara Swisher 41:52 I think about it a lot.

Andy Cohen 41:53 Yes.

Kara Swisher 41:53 My kid has a monster truck ring with a bunch of kids at the playground right now. They trade monster trucks back and forth.

Andy Cohen 41:58 I mean, I love that.

Kara Swisher 41:59 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 41:59 But that's great.

Kara Swisher 42:00 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 42:00 That's great.

Kara Swisher 42:01 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 42:01 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 42:01 Yeah, my wife's like, "He can't give it away." I'm like, "No, this is good."

Andy Cohen 42:03 Yes, exactly.

Kara Swisher 42:04 He becomes a... [laughs]

Andy Cohen 42:04 No, it's nice. But also when they want to-

Kara Swisher 42:06 Business

Andy Cohen 42:06 ... give something to a friend.

Kara Swisher 42:08 Well, it's more, you know.

Andy Cohen 42:08 Trade something. We were at a birthday party yesterday. My son is so funny. And on the way home, he, they've got gift bags.

Kara Swisher 42:15 This is a five or seven?

Andy Cohen 42:16 This is, my son's seven. She's four. And um, he said to her, he was trying to trade this really good, like, Lego egg thing that... And she was, like, talking. I go, "Lucy, do not trade that egg." He goes, "You know, if you have two of these Koosh balls, I mean, that's something. That's pretty rare."

Kara Swisher 42:36 [laughs]

Andy Cohen 42:36 And I was like, "Oh my God." And he got her to do the trade.

Kara Swisher 42:39 Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Andy Cohen 42:39 And I was like-

Kara Swisher 42:40 Yeah

Andy Cohen 42:40 ... "You know what, Ben? Good job."

Kara Swisher 42:41 Good for you.

Andy Cohen 42:42 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 42:42 Good for you. Good for you.

Andy Cohen 42:43 He negotiated the deal.

Kara Swisher 42:44 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 42:44 I couldn't believe it.

Kara Swisher 42:45 Yeah. There's a lot of negotiation in it.

Andy Cohen 42:46 Yes. My boyfriend goes, "You know what? You either got it or you don't."

Kara Swisher 42:49 That's right.

Andy Cohen 42:49 And he's got it.

Kara Swisher 42:50 Sales. Sales.

Andy Cohen 42:50 Yes, yes.

Kara Swisher 42:51 He's got sales.

Andy Cohen 42:52 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 42:52 When you think about, um- Raising them in New York.

Andy Cohen 42:56 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 42:56 Like, you've got an incredibly high profile. You're also very outspoken, uh, even when your opinions are controversial.

Andy Cohen 43:02 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 43:02 Um, I... Celebrities are very careful. It's unusual-

Andy Cohen 43:07 Yeah

Kara Swisher 43:07 ... for people to speak out.

Andy Cohen 43:08 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 43:08 And you intentionally bait people like President Trump. Uh, it comes down to, as you say in your memoir, which you wrote, the fact that you simply cannot shut the fuck up.

Andy Cohen 43:16 Yeah, I guess so.

Kara Swisher 43:17 Is it because of your-

Andy Cohen 43:18 But I also, my mom always taught me to stand up for what I believe in.

Kara Swisher 43:21 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 43:21 And I, on the radio, I mean-

Kara Swisher 43:25 Yeah, I've heard

Andy Cohen 43:26 ... I let it rip-

Kara Swisher 43:27 You do

Andy Cohen 43:27 ... on the radio.

Kara Swisher 43:28 You do.

Andy Cohen 43:28 I really let it rip.

Kara Swisher 43:28 You let it rip online.

Andy Cohen 43:30 Um, and on Watch What Happens Live, I mean, I gave Fauci the mazel of the day-

Kara Swisher 43:34 Yeah, yeah. That-

Andy Cohen 43:35 ... uh, the day that he was, uh-

Kara Swisher 43:37 Yeah

Andy Cohen 43:37 ... being dragged in front of Congress-

Kara Swisher 43:39 Yeah

Andy Cohen 43:39 ... and he pled the fifth all those times.

Kara Swisher 43:40 Right.

Andy Cohen 43:41 And man, did it piss

Andy Cohen 43:43 people off.

Kara Swisher 43:43 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 43:43 And it pissed off a lot of my viewers. And, um, I speak on Watch What Happens Live when it... Look, I'm the only gay host in late night television. I, you know, I really want to speak up for this community when I need to, or when I, you know, when I feel like I need to, and I've spoken up about anti-Semitism. And yeah, it's... I, I just, to me it's a matter of principle. And, and I'm off. My assistant tweets for me because I've found Twitter to be just absolutely just-

Kara Swisher 44:20 Yeah, I don't go there anymore

Andy Cohen 44:21 ... soul-crushing.

Kara Swisher 44:22 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 44:23 Um, and but Threads is pretty fun.

Kara Swisher 44:25 Yeah, you do very well on Threads.

Andy Cohen 44:26 And I like to, you know, troll, what's his name, Matt Schlapp-

Kara Swisher 44:29 Yeah

Andy Cohen 44:29 ... and his wife, Mercedes.

Kara Swisher 44:30 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 44:30 Is that-

Kara Swisher 44:31 Mm-hmm

Andy Cohen 44:31 ... Hegseth.

Kara Swisher 44:32 Mm-hmm.

Andy Cohen 44:33 I mean, he- everything he does-

Kara Swisher 44:34 You really go out. Do you think about it? 'Cause a-

Andy Cohen 44:36 No, I should

Kara Swisher 44:36 ... I'm telling you, a lot of celeb-

Andy Cohen 44:37 I know.

Kara Swisher 44:37 No, you should not. You absolutely should not.

Andy Cohen 44:39 Yeah. No, I mean, yeah. I mean, Pete Hegseth titles everything with the title of things that are, y- have been used as gay porn titles. I mean, like, I'm like, dude, you're, you... Falcon Entertainment should sue you.

Kara Swisher 44:52 [laughs]

Andy Cohen 44:52 They're, they're like a leading gay porn producer.

Kara Swisher 44:54 Yeah. [laughs] Yeah.

Andy Cohen 44:55 Like, you're-

Kara Swisher 44:57 And I have a sample at the Oprah, so

Andy Cohen 44:59 ... this is dialogue. I'm like, this is dialogue straight out-

Kara Swisher 45:02 Yeah

Andy Cohen 45:02 ... of Striker Force starring-

Kara Swisher 45:03 Yeah

Andy Cohen 45:03 ... Jeff Stryker. I mean-

Kara Swisher 45:04 Yeah. It's, it is a real gay porn administration.

Andy Cohen 45:07 It is.

Kara Swisher 45:07 It is in many ways.

Andy Cohen 45:08 It is. Yes.

Kara Swisher 45:08 I have to say, sometimes I'm like-

Andy Cohen 45:10 I am too. I can't get over it

Kara Swisher 45:11 ... I'm like, "Hmm, what's happening here?

Andy Cohen 45:13 Yes, yes.

Kara Swisher 45:13 What is going on here?" But do you feel like it ha- Do you, when you think about it, you just do it because you naturally think you can't shut the fuck up? I don't think that's-

Andy Cohen 45:20 Well, I think that I... Uh, let me say this. I'm very respectful of the airtime and the opportunity that I have on Watch What Happens Live to do the show. The, the industry has changed so much. I'm so grateful that I get to make this show every day, and I have people who, uh, have been with me for 17 years who work on Watch What Happens Live, and I, I, I want all of us to stay employed for as long as we can.

Kara Swisher 45:48 Sure.

Andy Cohen 45:49 So yes, I have very strong beliefs. I'm, I'm, m- I know what my show is, and I know what it isn't, and it's not a show about politics, but if I'm all hopped up-

Kara Swisher 45:59 Yeah

Andy Cohen 45:59 ... then I will come in and say-

Kara Swisher 46:01 Everything's about politics right now

Andy Cohen 46:02 ... I wanna speak to, you know, I wanna speak about-

Kara Swisher 46:04 Mm-hmm

Andy Cohen 46:04 ... X, Y, or Z, and-

Kara Swisher 46:05 Right

Andy Cohen 46:05 ... and I do it.

Kara Swisher 46:06 Right.

Andy Cohen 46:07 So, um, I just don't think that I overdo it.

Kara Swisher 46:10 Mm-hmm. Do you think it's important that people like you do that? I think it is more than you think.

Andy Cohen 46:14 I do. Yeah, I do. I mean, look, I feel like-

Kara Swisher 46:18 A lot of celebrities say, "Oh, I, uh, why do people wanna listen to me?" I'm like, "Why not? You're a citizen too."

Andy Cohen 46:23 Yeah. I mean, look, I, I'm of two mind. Every so often something will backfire, and I'll think, "You know what? I'm just gonna keep my head down and whatever."

Kara Swisher 46:30 What backfired?

Andy Cohen 46:30 And that... I don't know. It may be something that I just get overwhelmingly negative response to, but that's the only response I'm looking at. You know?

Kara Swisher 46:39 Right, right.

Andy Cohen 46:39 Who knows?

Kara Swisher 46:39 Right.

Andy Cohen 46:40 But then I may just get in my head about something.

Kara Swisher 46:42 Right, right.

Andy Cohen 46:43 But no, I think... Look, when I do these book tours, and I meet a kid who says, "I grew up in rural wherever, and you were the only gay person on television," or moms come up to me and say, "I used to look at you, and then when you had your kid, I turned to my son and said, 'You can do it too.'" So, you know, that means s-

Kara Swisher 47:03 It does

Andy Cohen 47:03 ... I think visibility always means something-

Kara Swisher 47:06 Yeah

Andy Cohen 47:06 ... and is important, and I feel strongly about it.

Kara Swisher 47:09 So on that, and then I wanna finish talking about the future of reality TV. When you think about being a parent-

Andy Cohen 47:14 Yeah

Kara Swisher 47:14 ... like a lot of people say gay parents. I'm like, "What in the world is a gay parent?"

Andy Cohen 47:17 Yeah, exactly.

Kara Swisher 47:17 Except more fun.

Andy Cohen 47:18 Yeah, I was gonna say.

Kara Swisher 47:19 Uh, more fun. Absolutely.

Andy Cohen 47:20 Mm.

Kara Swisher 47:20 Fucking more better parents.

Andy Cohen 47:21 Yes. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 47:22 I think the lesbians should raise everybody, but that's different. The gay men are doing a good job.

Andy Cohen 47:27 Lesbians-

Kara Swisher 47:27 [laughs]

Andy Cohen 47:29 ... should run the world. I mean, let's be real.

Kara Swisher 47:33 Let's be real.

Andy Cohen 47:34 I mean, y'all keep it together.

Kara Swisher 47:36 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 47:36 You have it organized. It is-

Kara Swisher 47:39 [laughs]

Andy Cohen 47:39 I mean, my assistant is one of the great lesbians in America-

Kara Swisher 47:42 Yeah

Andy Cohen 47:42 ... Daryn Carp, and I mean, she just gets shit done.

Kara Swisher 47:47 [laughs]

Andy Cohen 47:47 I mean, it's like... And, you know, there's not much drama. Talking about just keep your head down.

Kara Swisher 47:54 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 47:54 Make it happen.

Kara Swisher 47:55 So to speak. [laughs]

Andy Cohen 47:56 So to speak. Get out the

Andy Cohen 47:59 hammer and the nail.

Kara Swisher 48:00 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andy Cohen 48:00 I mean-

Kara Swisher 48:01 Yeah

Andy Cohen 48:01 ... you know?

Kara Swisher 48:01 There's a great online guy who talks about his lesbian neighbors. I don't know if you've ever seen him. He's very funny.

Andy Cohen 48:06 No, but-

Kara Swisher 48:06 He, they do everything.

Andy Cohen 48:07 Yes.

Kara Swisher 48:07 He's like, "We have a potluck, and it has everything." Like-

Andy Cohen 48:10 Yes. No, I mean, I, I agree.

Kara Swisher 48:12 But when you think about it, in a more serious thing, I think it's really important to model gay parents who are gay. I don't say gay parenting, 'cause I don't think it's different than-

Andy Cohen 48:20 Right

Kara Swisher 48:20 ... other parenting.

Andy Cohen 48:21 Right.

Kara Swisher 48:21 But one of the things I worry about are my kids. I now, I have older kids. They're no- at the time-

Andy Cohen 48:26 You worry about your kids growing up in this environment?

Kara Swisher 48:28 Well, you know, it was interesting, 'cause my older kids, w- w- was, they passed, um, the proposition in California, Proposition 8, that ended-

Andy Cohen 48:37 Yes

Kara Swisher 48:37 ... tried to end gay marriage-

Andy Cohen 48:38 Yes

Kara Swisher 48:38 ... when my kids were little, and the f- it's the year Obama won.

Andy Cohen 48:41 Right.

Kara Swisher 48:41 And my son at the time was eight or nine. Um, he's 25 now. And he said, "Can we stay a family?"

Andy Cohen 48:47 Wow.

Kara Swisher 48:47 I'll never forget it.

Andy Cohen 48:48 Oh my God.

Kara Swisher 48:48 It was devastating.

Andy Cohen 48:49 Oh my God.

Kara Swisher 48:49 "Are we still a family?" Which was weird. Now, fast-forward, since I'm a straight white man now-

Andy Cohen 48:55 Yeah

Kara Swisher 48:55 ... I have a second set of kids.

Andy Cohen 48:56 Right. [laughs]

Kara Swisher 48:56 Same thing is happening with ga-

Andy Cohen 48:58 Wow

Kara Swisher 48:58 ... with gay and lesbian stuff, which is-

Andy Cohen 49:00 Yes, it is-

Kara Swisher 49:01 I worry again about the same thing.

Andy Cohen 49:02 And what's interesting thing, what is interesting is so far they're seven and, and four They don't know that gay people are discriminated against. Y- that hasn't em- that hasn't gotten to them. Um, all- their friend... They grew up with Anderson C- s- Kids.

Kara Swisher 49:20 Right. Yeah

Andy Cohen 49:21 Um, we had gay parents down the hall from us. There are gay parents in their school. So they don't think it's unusual to have-

Kara Swisher 49:28 They live in New York though

Andy Cohen 49:28 ... two dads.

Kara Swisher 49:29 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 49:29 And they live in New York.

Kara Swisher 49:30 Right.

Andy Cohen 49:31 And so, but I'm so grateful for it. And I've said to my kids, by the way, "Do you, does it make you sad that you don't have a mom?" Because they see moms on, you know. Um, and Ben has said, "Well, if we had a mom, we wouldn't have you, Daddy."

Kara Swisher 49:47 Right. Right. Yeah.

Andy Cohen 49:47 "And you're the best."

Kara Swisher 49:48 Right. Right.

Andy Cohen 49:49 So I mean-

Kara Swisher 49:49 Yeah

Andy Cohen 49:50 ... they're, he's so high on my supply that, I mean, that's not literal.

Kara Swisher 49:54 [laughs] I do think-

Andy Cohen 49:56 Um, but, but, uh, but he's into me. They're both very into me. So they see it in that way.

Kara Swisher 50:01 But do you worry about the moment now? Uh, more and more I am more worried.

Andy Cohen 50:04 Yeah, of course I do. Of course I do. Um.

Kara Swisher 50:08 Or are we at the end of this?

Andy Cohen 50:10 I don't know where the fuck we are. But I do worry about it. But what I think you can... The only thing you can do in moments like this, you really just have to focus on your family and your children and looking within and making sure they're great, and that you're all there with each other.

Kara Swisher 50:28 Right. Yeah.

Andy Cohen 50:28 I mean, because that's something that you can control.

Kara Swisher 50:31 You can control.

Andy Cohen 50:31 And you donate to The States Project-

Kara Swisher 50:33 Right

Andy Cohen 50:33 ... which I'm very... Do you know about The States Project?

Kara Swisher 50:36 No. What is that?

Andy Cohen 50:36 The States Project is amazing organization. For people, there's so much hopelessness in, um, politics and in-

Kara Swisher 50:47 Yes

Andy Cohen 50:47 ... activism right now. As much as the president has and will and continues to grift and cheat and mess things up, everything's happens in the state houses.

Kara Swisher 50:59 Yes, it does.

Andy Cohen 50:59 And The States Project isolates the most key races. And when you give to them, you can target a certain s- state-

Kara Swisher 51:08 State. Mm-hmm

Andy Cohen 51:09 ... or race. So The States Project is just an amazing organization that you can get involved with and not lose your cool.

Kara Swisher 51:17 Not lose your cool.

Andy Cohen 51:18 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 51:18 Yeah, 'cause it feels you never know what's gonna happen.

Andy Cohen 51:19 You don't. You don't.

Kara Swisher 51:20 All right, I'm gonna finish up f- looking for the future of reality television.

Andy Cohen 51:23 Okay.

Kara Swisher 51:23 So the last two questions. You said that Watch What Happens Live is a short attention span theater.

Andy Cohen 51:27 It is.

Kara Swisher 51:27 It was made to be a viral show without making it, uh, be a viral show.

Andy Cohen 51:31 Right.

Kara Swisher 51:32 And it's doing well. Uh, as Late Night, uh, as Late Show on CBS ends and late night viewership is in decline.

Andy Cohen 51:38 Yes.

Kara Swisher 51:38 Talk about that, and where do you see it going?

Andy Cohen 51:42 Well, I'm amazed th- I'm not amazed. Where I see it going is that hopefully-

Kara Swisher 51:51 Mm-hmm

Andy Cohen 51:51 ... whoever is president after Trump-

Kara Swisher 51:53 Mm-hmm. Do you have a fave?

Andy Cohen 51:54 ... and that inclu- uh, I mean, I'm, I'm loving my man in Georgia right now.

Kara Swisher 52:00 Mm-hmm.

Andy Cohen 52:00 But, um-

Kara Swisher 52:01 Hotlanta.

Andy Cohen 52:02 What'd you say?

Kara Swisher 52:03 I call him Hotlanta.

Andy Cohen 52:03 Hotlanta, yes.

Kara Swisher 52:04 Yeah. Yeah.

Andy Cohen 52:05 But, uh, but that includes, uh, you know, listen, I have to keep hopeful. I'm a, I'm an optimistic person.

Kara Swisher 52:13 Mm-hmm.

Andy Cohen 52:13 So I'm gonna say even JD Vance or Marco Rubio, if they were to be-

Kara Swisher 52:18 Mm-hmm

Andy Cohen 52:18 ... president, I'm going to hope that they're not going to weaponize the FCC against-

Kara Swisher 52:24 Which they're doing. Yeah

Andy Cohen 52:25 ... everything and everyone-

Kara Swisher 52:25 Yeah. Mm-hmm

Andy Cohen 52:26 ... which is what's happening now. And I'm going to hope that the streamers-

Kara Swisher 52:31 Mm

Andy Cohen 52:31 ... will start developing some live late night shows that can do things without offending-

Kara Swisher 52:40 Mm-hmm

Andy Cohen 52:40 ... uh, you know-

Kara Swisher 52:41 Whoever

Andy Cohen 52:42 ... this man.

Kara Swisher 52:43 Mm-hmm.

Andy Cohen 52:43 Whoever or woman. Whoever it is. And that, that, that late night show... Right now I just think there's the, the, the viewership of network television has changed.

Kara Swisher 52:55 Absolutely.

Andy Cohen 52:56 Um, the way that daily talk shows are streamed has changed because it doesn't really, there is no habit-

Kara Swisher 53:06 Right, for broadcast

Andy Cohen 53:07 ... for going on-

Kara Swisher 53:07 At 4:00

Andy Cohen 53:08 ... uh, Hulu-

Kara Swisher 53:09 Yeah

Andy Cohen 53:09 ... and watching an episode of Jimmy Kimmel from last night.

Kara Swisher 53:13 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Andy Cohen 53:13 Whereas when you watched NBC after the news, you knew that you wanted to-

Kara Swisher 53:18 Right

Andy Cohen 53:18 ... watch The Tonight Show.

Kara Swisher 53:19 Right.

Andy Cohen 53:19 So hopefully the streamers, which have not been able to develop and produce a hit talk show-

Kara Swisher 53:28 Never

Andy Cohen 53:28 ... which is kind of incredible.

Kara Swisher 53:29 New show or talk show.

Andy Cohen 53:30 So, so I am hopeful-

Kara Swisher 53:33 Mm-hmm

Andy Cohen 53:33 ... that there will be, once this insanity-

Kara Swisher 53:37 Mm-hmm

Andy Cohen 53:37 ... stops.

Kara Swisher 53:38 Right.

Andy Cohen 53:38 I mean, it is. Wouldn't you think that Netflix-

Kara Swisher 53:41 Mm-hmm

Andy Cohen 53:41 ... would be saying-

Kara Swisher 53:42 One would

Andy Cohen 53:42 ... "Let's..." One might think that they would say, "Look, uh, uh, Colbert had 3 million viewers a night."

Kara Swisher 53:51 Mm-hmm.

Andy Cohen 53:52 That's not, you know-

Kara Swisher 53:53 Nothing

Andy Cohen 53:53 ... that's not nothing.

Kara Swisher 53:54 Mm-hmm.

Andy Cohen 53:54 Like, let's-

Kara Swisher 53:55 Would you wanna do something like that? Would you?

Andy Cohen 53:57 I'm really happy doing what I'm doing.

Kara Swisher 53:59 Right. Right.

Andy Cohen 53:59 I mean, I have a huge platform.

Kara Swisher 54:01 You're a bit like appointment television, which doesn't exist anymore.

Andy Cohen 54:04 Well, Bravo is, and I'm a part of that.

Kara Swisher 54:07 Mm-hmm.

Andy Cohen 54:08 And so I'm really happy where I am. I wanna keep doing Watch What Happens Live for as long as they have me. And then w- the way I'm exercising my brain on SiriusXM is, is really fun. So I'm great.

Kara Swisher 54:23 Yeah. And, and you're putting out books too, like the scrapbook and-

Andy Cohen 54:25 I love, look, I have an imprint at Crown. I, I, I, uh, published Mariah Carey's book, which was a number one bestseller.

Kara Swisher 54:33 Yeah.

Andy Cohen 54:33 Uh, I published a book that's an oral history of The Real Housewives. It was a number one New York Times bestseller. And this, Andy's Bravo Scrapbook, it's a coffee table book. It is a great Christmas present. It comes out October 20th.

Kara Swisher 54:47 Mm-hmm.

Andy Cohen 54:48 And so I'm hoping this will be my sixth, uh, bestseller.

Kara Swisher 54:50 I already got one for a friend of mine who watches-

Andy Cohen 54:52 Thank you

Kara Swisher 54:52 ... all your Housewives.

Andy Cohen 54:53 I love that. Thank you.

Kara Swisher 54:54 Yes. They, which they love it.

Andy Cohen 54:55 So, but yeah. I mean, I, look, I believe in doing as much as you can because anything can go away.

Kara Swisher 55:01 Mm-hmm.

Andy Cohen 55:01 And so only do what you can-

Kara Swisher 55:03 Is that what drives you?

Andy Cohen 55:03 ... control of.

Kara Swisher 55:04 That anything could go away?

Andy Cohen 55:06 Not really. What drives me is being happy in what I'm doing.

Kara Swisher 55:10 Mm-hmm. Me too.

Andy Cohen 55:11 And I wouldn't say yes to something unless it was gonna make me happy. So people offer me things all the time, and I say, "That's not gonna add, that's not additive to my life."

Kara Swisher 55:21 It's not like I just finished Ari Emanuel's book. It's about loss. Everything drives him is loss.

Andy Cohen 55:26 Right.

Kara Swisher 55:26 And desperation.

Andy Cohen 55:27 What drives me is kind of is it organic? Does it fit with me? Will it fit with my life? Will it make me happy? You know. And, I mean, the most important thing is my ki- can I do, you know, can I still take my kids to school every day?

Kara Swisher 55:41 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Andy Cohen 55:42 You know?

Kara Swisher 55:42 Right, in New York. Is there anything you've done that you ha- want to do? Would you like to run for office or?

Andy Cohen 55:48 No. I mean, uh, no, I'm good.

Kara Swisher 55:52 Nothing?

Andy Cohen 55:52 No.

Kara Swisher 55:52 Nothing you'd like to make that you see, and you're like, "Hmm"?

Andy Cohen 55:54 Not really.

Kara Swisher 55:55 Not really.

Andy Cohen 55:56 Not really. Is that bad?

Kara Swisher 55:58 No, it's not bad.

Andy Cohen 55:59 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 55:59 Why is it bad?

Andy Cohen 55:59 I wanna keep writing books.

Kara Swisher 56:01 Mm-hmm.

Andy Cohen 56:01 Um, and, you know, maybe someday I'll, like, teach a course in media.

Kara Swisher 56:08 A professor.

Andy Cohen 56:08 Yeah, that would be fun.

Kara Swisher 56:10 [laughs]

Andy Cohen 56:10 Why not? Is that funny, Kara Swisher?

Kara Swisher 56:13 Yes, it's funny.

Andy Cohen 56:13 Why is that funny? I'd be a great professor.

Kara Swisher 56:14 It's not funny. Scott Galloway's a professor. How ridiculous.

Andy Cohen 56:17 Yeah, exa-

Kara Swisher 56:17 The bar is very low.

Andy Cohen 56:18 Well, all right.

Kara Swisher 56:18 No, I'm teasing. [laughs]

Andy Cohen 56:19 Well, I think that I would be high on that bar.

Kara Swisher 56:21 [laughs]

Andy Cohen 56:22 Yes.

Kara Swisher 56:22 Harvard. [laughs]

Andy Cohen 56:23 I would be a great professor. Are you kidding me?

Kara Swisher 56:25 In school.

Andy Cohen 56:26 Yes. What?

Kara Swisher 56:26 School of hard knocks. What-

Andy Cohen 56:28 Yes.

Kara Swisher 56:28 Yes.

Andy Cohen 56:29 At the co- you know.

Kara Swisher 56:29 Harvard.

Andy Cohen 56:30 What's the best communication school in the... Tisch, NYU Tisch.

Kara Swisher 56:34 Tisch, Tisch. N- all right.

Andy Cohen 56:35 Yes, they would be-

Kara Swisher 56:35 Okay

Andy Cohen 56:35 ... they would be lucky to have me, Kara.

Kara Swisher 56:37 Tisch, lucky to have you.

Andy Cohen 56:38 Yes, they would.

Kara Swisher 56:39 I would agree with you.

Andy Cohen 56:40 You're not. You're goading me.

Kara Swisher 56:41 No. No, I'm not. No, 'cause my motto is, "You're lucky to have me," wherever I go.

Andy Cohen 56:45 Yes. Well, are you kidding me?

Kara Swisher 56:46 Years ago, when I was working, someone said they were lucky to be here, and I said, "You're lucky to have me."

Andy Cohen 56:51 That's funny. See, I mean, not many people can get away with saying that, and I, I-

Kara Swisher 56:57 I bet you could. You just did

Andy Cohen 56:58 ... it's not the best look for a man to say that.

Kara Swisher 57:01 It's okay.

Andy Cohen 57:01 I feel like a woman saying that is, like, "You go, girl," and a man saying that is, "Wow, you are a douchebag."

Kara Swisher 57:08 [laughs] No, you are not a douchebag whatsoever. Anyway.

Andy Cohen 57:11 And that's why I'm not gonna say that.

Kara Swisher 57:12 All right, fine. You just did-

Andy Cohen 57:13 Yes

Kara Swisher 57:13 ... a second ago. Anyway, I appreciate you.

Andy Cohen 57:15 My presence is my present.

Kara Swisher 57:16 You be you.

Andy Cohen 57:17 Can I say that?

Kara Swisher 57:17 Yes, yeah, that-

Andy Cohen 57:18 Okay, yeah

Kara Swisher 57:18 ... oh, I like that.

Andy Cohen 57:19 Yeah, yeah.

Kara Swisher 57:19 Your presence is my pre- nice.

Andy Cohen 57:20 Yes, yes.

Kara Swisher 57:21 Oh, I'm gonna steal that one.

Andy Cohen 57:22 It's the same.

Kara Swisher 57:22 Anyway, it's, anyway-

Andy Cohen 57:22 It's kind of the same thing

Kara Swisher 57:23 ... uh, uh, Andy, thank you. He's got this Bravo scrapbook out. I really, I think what you make is wonderful.

Andy Cohen 57:29 Thank you.

Kara Swisher 57:29 Actually.

Andy Cohen 57:30 I appreciate it.

Kara Swisher 57:30 And I'm so glad I stalked you.

Andy Cohen 57:31 Thank you. I'm so glad I-

Kara Swisher 57:32 Anytime.

Andy Cohen 57:33 Yes.

Kara Swisher 57:34 [laughs]

Andy Cohen 57:34 You know, listen, when Anderson texts and sa- I was like, "Oh, my God"

Kara Swisher 57:37 I got Anderson to do it.

Andy Cohen 57:38 Oh, my God. Wow.

Kara Swisher 57:39 I know.

Andy Cohen 57:39 Yes, I'm in.

Kara Swisher 57:40 Thank you so much. Today's show was produced by Vicky Varigolina, Michelle Aloy, Katherine Millsap, Olivia Briley, Megan Bernie, and Madeline LaPlant-Dubé. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Lissa Sowep, Rosemary Ho, Jim Mackle, and Manolo Moreno. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Quan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you're welcome in the Bravo clubhouse. If not, I might have to flip a dinner table at you. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media podcast network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more. [outro music]