“Authoritarian Instincts”: Tech, Trump, and the Holocaust with a former Sequoia Capital Chairman

Kara Swisher 0:00 You British types are smart.

Michael Moritz 0:01 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 0:02 Yeah. Anyway.

Michael Moritz 0:03 Some of them are.

Kara Swisher 0:04 Yeah, some of them are.

Michael Moritz 0:04 Um, so.

Kara Swisher 0:04 That's true. Fair point. Even the dumb ones are smarter than we are.

Michael Moritz 0:08 It is on.

Kara Swisher 0:13 Hi, everyone. In a world of the internet, there are a lot of king-making background players. Sir Michael Moritz is one of them. Michael is a venture capitalist and early investor in companies like Google, YouTube, PayPal, and LinkedIn. I covered a lot of his investments at the time they were happening. His keen eye for opportunity made him a legend in Silicon Valley, and a billionaire a few times over, but his background is unconventional, and his new book, Auslander, gets into it a bit deeper. For those who don't know, Auslander means outsider, and Michael, in many ways, considers himself this. And he is a bit of an outsider compared to a lot of people I covered. It's a really interesting book that he links to today's political, uh, atmosphere under the Trump administration. He is not shy from being critical of Trump, something that most venture capitalists and people in Silicon Valley have, uh, not done, and I really appreciate a really searing look at both history and current events. So let's get into it. Michael, thank you for coming on On. I really appreciate it.

Michael Moritz 1:11 It's very kind of you to have me. I'm flattered.

Kara Swisher 1:14 So let me just say at the start, I texted you this last night, and I was finishing up your book. I, you were, you were, one, a very good journalist when you were one, as I was reminded, and this is a beautifully written book. You have not lost any of your skills as a journalist.

Michael Moritz 1:28 That is too kind, but thank you.

Kara Swisher 1:30 Yeah. I'm not sure you want to be known as a journalist, [laughs] but-

Michael Moritz 1:33 Oh, I'm very happy. I-

Kara Swisher 1:35 Yeah

Michael Moritz 1:35 ... oh, I had fly the flag as an ink-stained wretch every day.

Kara Swisher 1:38 Yes. Yeah. Well, it's beautifully written, and really you should keep it up. Anyway,

Kara Swisher 1:43 for people who don't know, besides you being a reporter, you basically helped fund the construction of the modern internet. Uh, let's talk about that just a minute so we can talk about where you're coming from here in your time at Sequoia. Um, you invested and sat on the boards of huge companies, many, many huge companies. Um, and you topped Forbes Midas 100 list of top tech investors twice, and as I noted before tech, you were a journalist. We've known each other a long time. Um, talk a little bit about that so people understand who you, what your most of your career has been.

Michael Moritz 2:15 Sure. Well, um, I grew up in Britain, came here 50 years ago, and began life, uh, in America as a journalist for Time magazine, and, um, did that for about four years. And then along the way, uh, wrote a couple of books, one that I did with a Time colleague about the automobile industry, and the next one was a book called The Little Kingdom, which was a book about Apple's, uh, years as a, as a private company, and the first book about, uh, the first book about Apple. And then as a correspondent for Time, I'd, I didn't know anything about Silicon Valley, uh, when I moved to California. Just literally didn't know it existed. And I got very interested in it. And I did a few stories about the venture business, which again was something that I didn't know anything about. And, um, the venture business back in, in the early to mid-'80s was a world separated from the venture business that both of us know today. And, um, I decided I wanted to see if I could get a job in the venture business. And, um, I wrote to, this is pre-email, so these were actually typed letters that I sent to the leaders of, well, the, the, the five firms that stood out. And-

Kara Swisher 3:35 Kleiner Perkins. Right

Michael Moritz 3:36 ... Kleiner Perkins, and, um, um, uh-

Kara Swisher 3:41 Merill, are they?

Michael Moritz 3:41 ... Merill Pickard and NEA-

Kara Swisher 3:42 Right. Yeah. [laughs]

Michael Moritz 3:43 ... and a c- um, and a couple of others. And the leaders were all really kind, and, you know, they were kind. They opened their doors, and they gave me an interview, and I think just to be polite, and all brushed me off and said, "Ugh, we wouldn't know what to do with you. Um, um, you were a history major. Um, you were a journalist. Um, you have no technology background or education whatsoever."

Kara Swisher 4:12 Right.

Michael Moritz 4:12 And-

Kara Swisher 4:12 Sorry

Michael Moritz 4:13 ... um, [laughs] yeah. And one person, uh, thank goodness, had a different point of view, and his name was Don Valentine, and he was the founder-

Kara Swisher 4:24 Mm-hmm. Legend

Michael Moritz 4:25 ... of, the founder of Sequoia. And his opinion was as follows, which was he was straightforward enough to suggest that he didn't know what made for a successful venture capitalist because he'd watched some of his buddies from, you know, who'd held high positions, uh, in semiconductor companies or some of the computer companies, and they'd come into the venture business and had flamed out. And then he pointed to several people that he knew who had not identical backgrounds, but similar, uh, you know, uh, backgrounds that on paper wouldn't suggest that they'd be s- uh, be successful in the venture business. One was a guy called Tommy Davis who started the Mayfield Fund and, um... And then, uh, but, you know, the big, uh, the big witness for the defense was Arthur Rock. And Arthur Rock became, uh, the first investor and chairman of Intel, and then a few years later, uh, became the first investor in Apple. And on paper, he w- he, he, he didn't look like a good prospect for the venture business, but that was the reason that Don was more open than the others.

Kara Swisher 5:40 So was there something about that you wanted to do? I know you had, you know, you had written the book The Little Kingdom, which I r- read and remember very well. Beautifully written book again. Steve called you the historian of Apple in a lot of ways, although I don't ever imagine you were in the tank for him. I didn't remember think... I think that of a lot of books, but I didn't think about that one. Um, so you had some familiarity with technology.

Michael Moritz 6:04 Some, but it was, as it is today-

Kara Swisher 6:07 Mm-hmm

Michael Moritz 6:07 ... very superficial.

Kara Swisher 6:10 Right. Right. Right. But what made you see something like a Google in that garage? You and I have both been to that, Susan Wojcicki's, the late Susan Wojcicki's garage. What did you see there at that time? 'Cause that's what really made your fame really.

Michael Moritz 6:24 Well, it wa- it was actually... I mean, it was pretty straightforward. We'd had a big... Sequoia had a big advantage because we had provided the original financing in, I think it was 1995, for Yahoo. And most people in Silicon Valley at that point, most of the investors shied away from the idea that you could provide a service for free. They didn't understand how the economics would work, and for me as a journalist, it was extremely straightforward. I remember having these conversations with a couple of the skeptics, uh, curmudgeonly skeptics at, uh, at Sequoia, that it was no different on the internet than it was in television or radio, where the, um, consumer, uh, actually, uh, paid for their, uh, uh, paid for their use of the service by enduring the advertisements that they were screened, and the advertisements that they were shown. And so we invested in Yahoo, and that's what played out at Yahoo. And then Jerry Yang called one day and said, "You know, we're thinking about changing our search engine, and we're thinking about, um, using the technology from a couple of people that we knew a little bit at Stanford, um, Larry Page and Sergey." And I'd, I'd met Larry a few years earlier. And, uh, he said, "But we're pretty apprehensive and nervous about it because it doesn't have any venture financing around it, and I don't think we're gonna license this unless it has venture backing." And that was the first time that I really heard about, uh, Google, Google as a company, and so he encouraged us to invest in Google. And for me, it was very easy. Uh, it wasn't complicated. The results were just better. The search results were just better. And, um, so again, it was a straightforward investment save for one thing, which was the valuation. Um, and there w- [chuckles] there was, um, I won't name names, but there was a, uh, another, um, character who participated through his partnership in the investment, and he said, when he heard about the valuation, he said, "I've never paid so much for so little."

Kara Swisher 9:00 [laughs]

Michael Moritz 9:01 And, uh-

Kara Swisher 9:02 That was a door, 'cause he was your co-investor.

Michael Moritz 9:04 No, no.

Kara Swisher 9:04 Right, yeah.

Michael Moritz 9:04 I'm, but I'll protect you.

Kara Swisher 9:05 It was the two of you.

Michael Moritz 9:06 I'll protect the not so innocent.

Kara Swisher 9:07 Yeah, I can guess. I have a, I have-

Michael Moritz 9:08 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 9:09 I know.

Michael Moritz 9:09 Well, you're such a close chronicler of, uh-

Kara Swisher 9:12 Yeah

Michael Moritz 9:12 ... of all the scallywags out here that-

Kara Swisher 9:14 Yeah, yeah

Michael Moritz 9:14 ... uh, you would know that, so.

Kara Swisher 9:15 What a nice term for them, scallywags. I wanna start, um, talking... I'll, I'll get back to Silicon Valley in a minute, but talking about the book, because it do- what's incredible, it has nothing to do with Silicon Valley or venture capital. It's a personal exploration of your family history in Nazi Germany. It tells the story of your family who escaped the Holocaust, and those who were killed by the Nazis. Uh, it's one thing to investigate your family history for your own knowledge. It's another to turn your research into a book. Talk a little bit about this, because you got a bo- box of, um, boxes after your mom died, um, that caused you to do this. Talk about what f- made you pay attention to this, besides personal.

Michael Moritz 9:55 It, it, it was all very accidental.

Michael Moritz 9:57 I never-

Kara Swisher 9:58 Mm-hmm

Michael Moritz 9:58 ... set out to write this book.

Kara Swisher 9:59 Mm-hmm.

Michael Moritz 10:00 And three things happened. My mother died, um, slightly short of her 96th birthday. My sister, who lives in Britain, cleared out the house and, uh, put the documents and papers that she found, I mean, this was not the Rothschild archives, um, you know, in, in maybe four or five, um, uh, cardboard boxes and sh- and shipped them to me. And these were some old letters. There were some, um, documents, old identity cards, passports, uh, you know, and a few photo albums. And, and then COVID happened simultaneously, and we all remember COVID, and for those of us who'd at that point, you know, had the means, didn't have children at home, didn't have elderly parents to take care of, suddenly there was a lot more time on, on my hands anyway. I wasn't traveling, wasn't commuting. And, um, I got engrossed in the story. Now, I obviously knew the, the, the, the arc of, uh, my familial history. What I didn't know were the details, and it's the details that make everything come to life.

Kara Swisher 11:09 Right.

Michael Moritz 11:09 And so the papers that I received started me on this, on this mystery trail, where I was trying to f- you know, find the clues, find the traces, piece the bits, and, and assemble the bits and pieces. And you know, our family story is not unique. Obviously, there are millions of other people who, who, no, tens of millions of other people in various ways who got swept up in this horrific whirlwind that, that occurred in Europe. But obviously, your own family's story tends to become the most important. So that's how-

Kara Swisher 11:50 You got it

Michael Moritz 11:50 ... the book came about.

Kara Swisher 11:51 Right, 'cause of these boxes, and you quote, said the entire, you wrote, quote, "The entire heritage of what we knew about our shattered family was in them." What-- Is there something that you pulled out? I just recently got a box. My dad died when I was very young, and I, my aunt-

Michael Moritz 12:05 Mm-hmm

Kara Swisher 12:05 ... recently died, and I got a box of stuff of his, and I-

Michael Moritz 12:07 Mm-hmm

Kara Swisher 12:08 ... I, I pulled one thing out that was disturbing, which was that he was in a play where he Was b- in blackface, which was astonishing.

Michael Moritz 12:14 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 12:14 This was West Virginia in the 19, you know, 50s, early 1950s-

Michael Moritz 12:19 Mm-hmm

Kara Swisher 12:19 ... so it's not a surprise. But is there something you pulled out, um, of it that made you say, "This is actually a book"? Because you can ju- I, I've looked through them, and I haven't thought, "Wow, I should write a book here."

Michael Moritz 12:31 Well, there were two or three things, let me tell you about them, that made it much more vivid and helped me assemble, um, some of the pieces.

Michael Moritz 12:40 So I had a, um, uh, uh, the brother of my paternal grandfather, um, there was a photograph of him that had survived in the files of the Gestapo, um, that... And the Gestapo were not supposed to take photographs of what they were doing to, uh, the Jews that they rounded up, but, um, some, some smart aleck had taken photographs to present to his commanding officer. And so there was a photograph of my grand unc- Uncle Oscar, it was the last photograph obviously taken of him, stepping off a bus after he had been rounded up with the other people who lived in his little village. So that was one thing that brought everything to, to life for me. You know-

Kara Swisher 13:29 Right, that there he was

Michael Moritz 13:30 ... you, you, you can imagine, can you just imagine, even though the photo is in black and white, all of this stuff is about bringing color into, into the story. So that was one thing.

Kara Swisher 13:42 Right.

Michael Moritz 13:42 Then a different scene was my father had been, um, saved from, uh, the horrors because he was sent to school in England. And then in, uh, 1940, after the British government felt that they were in profound danger of being overrun by the Nazis after the Nazis had swept across Western Europe, they rounded up all the enemy aliens. And, um, on the whole, these were people of German or Italian descent who hadn't been granted citizenry and were labeled enemy aliens, irrespective of whether they supported Mussolini or were Jewish or s- you know-

Kara Swisher 14:25 Familiar

Michael Moritz 14:26 ... or were Nazi.

Kara Swisher 14:26 Familiar in this country, Japanese, it goes on and on.

Michael Moritz 14:29 It, it, you're exactly right. You're exactly right. And, uh, so my father had been rounded up and then shipped off to an internment camp on a island on the, called the Isle of Man on the west coast of Britain. And again, I was sifting through archives and s- found, as you do in archival searches, one footnote leads you to another thing, and I found a trove of black and white photographs in the Tate archives in, uh, in Britain. And I was, you know, really, you know, I was engrossed here and, 'cause my father talked about being interned, but I'd never heard any of the details. And there I found, in two of the photographs, pictures of my father behind a barbed wire fence.

Kara Swisher 15:20 Right.

Michael Moritz 15:20 So-

Kara Swisher 15:20 In, in the internment camp.

Michael Moritz 15:22 In the internment camp. And then the other thing that really surprised me was after the, I had two sets of grandparents. My, uh, o- obviously, my paternal grandparents were, uh, were murdered. My maternal grandparents got out of Germany three days before the outbreak of World War II.

Kara Swisher 15:41 Right. Right, Sally and Lou-

Michael Moritz 15:43 Yeah

Kara Swisher 15:43 ... Lu- Louise

Michael Moritz 15:44 And Louise. And after the war, there, there were copies of letters that my surviving grandfather sent to people that he knew in the farming village in which he had been born and grown up and, you know, um, um, had a small cattle and a ca-

Kara Swisher 16:06 This is in Bavaria or Rhineland? This is-

Michael Moritz 16:08 Uh, the Rhineland.

Kara Swisher 16:08 Rhineland.

Michael Moritz 16:09 Northwestern Germany.

Kara Swisher 16:10 Right. Okay.

Michael Moritz 16:10 Near the, near the Dutch border.

Kara Swisher 16:12 Okay.

Michael Moritz 16:13 And those letters moved me intensely because they were full of understanding, compassion, and forgiveness for what his friends had endured, uh, these were non-Jewish friends, and thanking them, uh, profusely for the help that they had provided to him before the war. Now, he was clear-eyed about this. He knew who the bad people were, and, you know, I grew up in a era in Britain in the, in, in the '60, '50, '60s and '70s, where anything associated with Germany, anything, anyone, any individual, uh, was considered an enemy. And so here to read my grandfather's letters within two, three years after the end of World War II, it taught me a lot about the need for understanding of others and the predicament that they were in. And-

Kara Swisher 17:16 T- but they hadn't told you this. You say you know m- nothing about your parents' early lives, um, a- and they didn't explore their pasts, and here you are doing this.

Michael Moritz 17:25 Well, I think for many people of that generation, the wounds were so deep. And even though, obviously, b- my mother had gotten out of Germany in '39, in 1939, my fa- my father in 1937. But they also didn't know whether they were going to get permanent, uh, residency in, in Britain or whether they were gonna be shipped back to Germany, so there was an element of uncertainty about it. But, um, I think, uh, it was a whole mixture, it was a whole mixture of things that's probably very common. I'm no expert in, in the psychology of grief, but, or, or despair, but I think it was, uh, a desire to move on, to, to assimilate.

Kara Swisher 18:16 Right.

Michael Moritz 18:17 Um, and to Not get enveloped-

Kara Swisher 18:23 Right. And, and-

Michael Moritz 18:23 ... too much by the past, but it was always, for both of them, it was always, I think, mentally just a half step away, but they could never come to terms with it. This was-

Kara Swisher 18:33 They, but they, they also, you, you said they didn't view themselves as survivors of the Holocaust, and they rejected the label, and-

Michael Moritz 18:39 Right

Kara Swisher 18:39 ... do you think it also contributes to their inability to grieve, as you say?

Michael Moritz 18:43 Maybe. For them, survivor had a very specific connotation. A survivor was somebody, and they recognized that they were very fortunate compared to the people that they call survivors. But a survivor was somebody like a cousin of my father's, who had the same name, coincidentally, as my dad, who survived Auschwitz.

Kara Swisher 19:09 Right, the camps themselves.

Michael Moritz 19:11 And eventually escaped. A survivor was, there was a lady in, in, in South Wales where I grew up that my mother knew, who had been born on a cart being dragged out of Auschwitz at the end of the war. Those were the survivors.

Kara Swisher 19:31 Those were survivors, but they were survivors

Kara Swisher 19:34 because your mother's parents, Sally and Louise, escaped. They got out just before the war started. Your father's parents, Max and Minnie, did not, even though Max had-

Michael Moritz 19:42 Right

Kara Swisher 19:43 ... chances. And there were some practical reasons Mac didn't, Max didn't act on those chances, but also I want to read this passage you wrote. "Max may well have clung to the hope that his military service and long membership of the judiciary would render him invulnerable, or that more rational hands would wrest control from Hitler, or that foreign powers would not tolerate a barbarous regime in the middle of Europe." Talk about the idea you're getting to here, that Math-- Max's faith in institutions betrayed him.

Michael Moritz 20:11 Well, y- uh, you put your finger on it. My, my grandfather, who escaped, as I just mentioned, he was a, you know, a small-time cap- cattle trader, which at the end of the 19th century was one of the few professions that was open for Jews, and, uh, in Germany. And I think in, you know, in retrospect, I'm projecting some of this, and my-- He was entrepreneurial, he was street smart, he had to rely on his wits. He never, um, you know, he was never paid by the state. He was very, um, you know, he was almost blind at birth, and then, so he didn't serve in World War I. My other grandfather, the one you referred to, he survived Verdun. So he had come out of that like all the other Jews who'd served in the Jewish ar- uh, in the German army, and he got his Iron Cross, and then he'd been the first, um, uh, person in his family to get a higher education. He became, as you said, a member of the judiciary. And he had this misplaced faith in institutions. And it's exactly as you just said. Here was this man who had served the state, he was employed by the state, he was going to, he thought, get a pension from the state, and he had this false faith in, uh, I suppose the moral compass of the state.

Kara Swisher 21:33 In that regard, two things. Uh, you know, you talk a- about your parents' trauma has been passed down through generations, and so telling the story allows you to do that. How does that manifest with you then? Because there's a line that you write that I think is very important in this book. It says, "It's odd to feel like an outsider and the, when you, everyone considers you an insider." Um, I want you to sort of spool this out. For people don't know, Auslander means outsider. Um, my own experience with Out- Auslander was in Germany itself when I was covering the neo-Nazi riots right after the wall fell. Uh, the neo-Nazis sort of went into East Germany and tried to recruit because a lot of this had been barred in West Germany, and they were quite educated about the Holocaust. In East Germany, they did no such education. And so they, they found a very willing population who had n- who they never-- The Nazis were not blamed as much in East Germany. And so I was at a, I was at a rally of neo-Nazis of all kinds following them, and there was one woman who stood in their way and said, "Schande," which means shame, um, except they're, they're-- as they were walking through the streets of this East German, formerly East German town in Eastern Germany, they were yelling, um, "Deutschland für Deu- Deutschen, Ausländers aus," which means Germans, uh, "Germany for Germans, outsiders out." I never will forget that moment. It was really chilling.

Kara Swisher 22:57 You talk about, you name the book Auslander, and y- and you also say everyone does consider you an insider. I guess I do too, as sort of an insider to Silicon Valley or the tech industry. Talk a little bit about th- this, um, tension.

Michael Moritz 23:12 One, one of the, uh, results of writing the book, obviously, I discovered things about my parents that I hadn't really understood as a result of it, but I also discovered something about myself and why I am, with all my various flaws, who I am today. Uh, but I have never been able, uh, to get over the feeling of being an outsider, no matter where I've lived. It doesn't matter whether it was in Wales or whether I was in college or when I got into the venture industry or, um... It's alwa- it's always been there. And the Britain that I grew up in, in, in the 1960s, I think to some extent... Look, I, I owe Britain a tremendous amount. They, I wouldn't be here without the actions of the British, without the actions of the British government. But Britain in the '60s was not a multicultural society, and we lived in this, uh, area in, in Wales, in South Wales, where, I don't know, population was probably about two and a half million, and there were maybe 500 Jewish families in, in Wales. And we were Jewish and German And so, you know the feeling-

Kara Swisher 24:34 Suspect

Michael Moritz 24:34 ... as a child.

Kara Swisher 24:34 Yeah, suspect.

Michael Moritz 24:35 Every child wants to be accepted by their pals and their contemporaries. And, uh, we stood out. And, uh, you sort of internalize that feeling and carry it with you. Um, it's a, it's a very, very permanent, permanent mark. Uh-

Kara Swisher 24:56 So not belonging in Cardiff, not belonging in college in Britain, I mean, in England, and not belonging in the United States, meaning, is what you're-

Michael Moritz 25:07 Right

Kara Swisher 25:07 ... this idea of outsider.

Michael Moritz 25:08 But look, and, uh, I don't mean, uh, Kara, I don't mean, I've been really, really lucky, so I don't want this to come across as self-pity.

Kara Swisher 25:14 No, I don't, but your name of your book is Outlander, right? [laughs]

Michael Moritz 25:16 Yeah, yeah. I don't want it-

Kara Swisher 25:18 Right

Michael Moritz 25:18 ... it to come across as self-pity.

Kara Swisher 25:19 No, it's, I don't think that.

Michael Moritz 25:19 But think how many people to- uh people today, minorities who live in America-

Kara Swisher 25:24 Mm-hmm

Michael Moritz 25:24 ... feel like outsiders.

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Kara Swisher 26:46 Most of the book is about your family's story, but you also reflect on the present political moment, and you don't shy away from it. And you drew contemporary parallels to Nazis, and that's always fraught to do, trust me. Like, I, I, I worry when people say, "He's like Hitler," I'm like, "Not quite." But you write about how Trump's rise to power made you think a lot about the refrain you heard from your parents when you were a boy. Uh, "If it did happen, it can happen. If it did happen, it will happen. If it did happen somewhere, it can happen here." Um, talk a little bit about this, 'cause while Trump's hold on American politics may not be what it once was, and I think we're on the descending mountain of that, the forces that ushered him in are still alive and kicking and always have been. So talk about these parallels you draw right at the top of this book.

Michael Moritz 27:31 Mm-hmm. I have been very careful never to call Trump a fascist, never to label him a Nazi, never to equate him with what happened in Nazi Germany. Never. Uh, but I do believe he has authoritarian instincts, the same authoritarian instincts that we've seen in others who've, uh, risen to the forefront of politics in their, uh, in their countries. And, uh, you know, one of the things that happens when you have an authoritarian with a lotta control, no matter how many protections everybody feels, uh, there might be, uh, in the United States, before you know it, you have the weakening and the hollowing out of the institutions of state with all of their flaws that people have come to rely on. And to me, it's like, you know, termites or dry rot. It's imperceptible to most people. Obviously, these heinous ICE agents shooting people in the face, oh, in, uh, i- in Minneapolis, those aren't unvisible.

Kara Swisher 28:46 And just this week, and just this week again in Texas.

Michael Moritz 28:48 Uh, those aren't invisible, and the cruelty meted out, those are very visible. But what is happening, um, to, uh, you know, various state departments that tilted the judiciary, all of that doesn't affect what happens in daily life until you confront it. And then before you know it, the state in which you played, uh, placed great trust and emphasis, um, is hollowed out.

Kara Swisher 29:17 Very much like your, your grandfather, many were shocked how quickly some American institutions folded under pressures from the Trump administration at the start of the second term.

Kara Swisher 29:26 Um, you do, I will say, if I have to... A criticism, as you know I'll make this, is you-

Michael Moritz 29:30 Okay

Kara Swisher 29:30 ... seem to give some of the tech guys a bit of a pass, and-

Michael Moritz 29:33 Mm-hmm

Kara Swisher 29:33 ... they're, quote, "responding to an invitation they could not refuse." That's a Godfather term. Um, I feel like they could refuse some of those invitations, given they're wealthy, powerful. Talk a little bit about this because, uh, and the institutions themselves, 'cause this is something that your grandfather missed, right? He thought, "Oh, well, I was a war hero. Oh, I was, you know, I'm in the judiciary. This, this can't happen here," which is, of course, y- what your-

Michael Moritz 29:59 Well, I, I-

Kara Swisher 29:59 ... parents said. It can

Michael Moritz 30:01 ... I think, I think the leaders the, of the tech industry, their, their, their companies are so large, the- uh their influence so great, their business all around the globe, that in many ways the CEOs or the chairman of these, um, companies are politicians, and they have to be. Uh, maybe juggling pressure from China and juggling pressure from the US and, and dealing with, um, the EU and other regulatory agencies a- a- around the world. And I think they play a very, have a very difficult ... balancing act to, uh, n- I have some sympathy with them, knowing that they are all cast from s- you know, all woven from, from different cloth, and maybe some lean more towards Trump than, than others. But I think they all have his number, and they're doing, uh, and they're doing what they need to do in order to protect the intere- the interests as they see it of all of their shareholders, and are trying very hard to ensure that they're, they're dealing with a, a capricious, vindictive character who wields a lot of power.

Kara Swisher 31:15 Right.

Michael Moritz 31:15 And the last thing they want is his various flamethrowers, um, torching their companies.

Kara Swisher 31:22 I, I get that. I completely get that. But this is something you kind of addressed in the book about what happened to Germany, right? If the richest men in the world can't say no, h- who can? And, and were you surprised at that panoply at the inauguration? When I saw it, I was like, "Oh, good God." Like, "You're kidding me. You've gotta fucking be kidding me."

Michael Moritz 31:42 Well, and I, I know for certain that a, a couple of them at least, and obviously I'm not gonna name them-

Kara Swisher 31:46 Right

Michael Moritz 31:47 ... that's the very last place they wanted to be.

Kara Swisher 31:49 I am aware of that. I heard from them.

Michael Moritz 31:51 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 31:51 [laughs]

Michael Moritz 31:51 And I'm sure all of them, or some of them anyway, wish that a, a great hole had opened up that just swallowed them up and, and, uh, made them invisible. I think some of them, again, you may not like this or, or feel I'm, uh, being too protective. I think some of them try to whisper in his ear privately and, and quietly, uh, without hu- you know, publicly humiliating him or, or taking a stand. And, you know, maybe that's the most effective way to deal with this character. Um, and, uh, throwing yourself on the pyre I'm not sure does, um, does any good.

Kara Swisher 32:34 Well, I, I, I-

Michael Moritz 32:34 But you're exact- you're exact-

Kara Swisher 32:36 I get, I get it. I get that.

Michael Moritz 32:37 You're ex-

Kara Swisher 32:37 Go ahead

Michael Moritz 32:37 ... you, you're exactly right. You know, the companies like Siemens and, uh, all these other-

Kara Swisher 32:44 Mercedes

Michael Moritz 32:44 ... Mercedes-

Kara Swisher 32:45 Yep

Michael Moritz 32:45 ... all these other vast companies, the Krupps, that were very, very powerful, uh, in, in, uh, i- in Germany colluded. And, uh, but they also-

Kara Swisher 32:59 Or thought, or thought they could control him or thought he was a moron

Michael Moritz 33:02 ... Oh, thought they could control him. But-

Kara Swisher 33:03 Moron, et cetera

Michael Moritz 33:04 ... after, after the control phase passed, they colluded.

Kara Swisher 33:07 Mm-hmm. Yes.

Michael Moritz 33:08 And, um, they operated slave camps for him. They found, they, they found it useful for their business that, um, uh, they could find cheap sources of labor, um, to, uh, in which, uh, which to flourish. Now, I don't think we're anywhere close to that in the United States with the, with the tech guys, but I know you, you would feel, and I can understand this-

Kara Swisher 33:33 Yeah, I-

Michael Moritz 33:33 ... and I think a lot of people would feel better if some of them had stood up and said, "I completely disagree with-"

Kara Swisher 33:40 Yeah. I, it's not so much that

Michael Moritz 33:41 "... these following policies."

Kara Swisher 33:41 It's that you can see they want... They'll go to those dinners even if they disagree. And I get it. I had... Listen, I had Elon Musk on the phone when he went to that first meeting in 2015, and he said, "I can change his mind." And I said, "Listen, Jesus, I don't think it's happening. He's an old racist, and, like, pay attention to this person."

Michael Moritz 33:58 Yeah. Right.

Kara Swisher 33:58 And one of the things that I think is the most surprising is it never stops, though. Like, it, it, we're v- I- especially when they want a lack of AI regulation or they hand him some crypto money 'cause he's so easily, um, bribed essentially. Where does that end from your, you? Because you have-

Michael Moritz 34:15 Well, I-

Kara Swisher 34:16 ... been out, you have-- In this book, you do not back off at all.

Michael Moritz 34:19 Well-

Kara Swisher 34:19 I'm not surprised

Michael Moritz 34:20 ... ever, ever, ever since he started running-

Kara Swisher 34:22 Mm-hmm. Yes

Michael Moritz 34:23 ... and, you know, in certain circles-

Kara Swisher 34:24 You've been critical

Michael Moritz 34:24 ... in Silicon Valley, I've been-

Kara Swisher 34:26 Mm-hmm

Michael Moritz 34:26 ... a loner.

Kara Swisher 34:27 Yes, you have.

Michael Moritz 34:28 I have tried to persuade everybody-

Kara Swisher 34:30 Mm-hmm

Michael Moritz 34:31 ... that no, all our, all-

Kara Swisher 34:33 That's the noise of someone coming for you right now. No, sorry. [laughs] Kidding.

Michael Moritz 34:35 That's right.

Kara Swisher 34:36 [laughs]

Michael Moritz 34:37 All our presidents, all our presidents, all our political leaders are flawed, m- like all of us. Some have a lot more flaws than others. Trump [laughs] is, is one of those characters. And what I've tried to do in the conversations that I had with, had with various people, although I've given up on it because, um, you know, history's not gonna, uh, you know, we, we'll see what happens, was the number one thing that you wanna look for in any leader is character. Number one. And I think a lot of... Well, I know a lot of people in Silicon Valley held their nose or turned the other way and ignored what they knew, and shame on them. You ignore character at your peril, I think.

Kara Swisher 35:21 I would agree. I would agree. Was there any worry for you? You spoke out really strongly. This book is very strong. I've n- I've not seen it except, I'm trying to think of... Even Cuban, who sort of tries to play it both ways many times, has been critical but also is a, "an on the other hand" kind of person. It's his nature, actually. Um, is there a price for you to being this way?

Michael Moritz 35:47 I think you have to be true to who you are.

Kara Swisher 35:50 Um,

Kara Swisher 35:51 you end the book by revealing you decided to apply for German citizenship, which was fascinating, and we're seeing Germany is also struggling with the rise of national sentiment and antisemitism. The far-right Alternative for Germany, or AfD, is surging in elections. Talk about, uh, the, the, you applying for, d- doing this German citizenship, and I know you think, and I do agree with you, they spend a lot of time trying to, to push back on this stuff. Um, are, are you worried about the national vow of never again to lose resonance as the horrors of the war grow more distant there? That would be the danger, obviously. It, it wasn't us.

Michael Moritz 36:27 So I, I'm not deluding myse- I hope I'm not deluding myself. I hope I'm being fairly clear-eyed. Um, I think this, whether it's the left or, and we haven't talked about the left, but, uh, what-

Kara Swisher 36:40 I, I'd be happy to

Michael Moritz 36:41 ... w- w- [laughs] whether it's the-

Kara Swisher 36:42 I'm going to. My next question.

Michael Moritz 36:43 All right. Whether it's the left or the right In the United States, in the UK, in France, in Germany, in, uh, Italy, and other places in, uh, in Western Europe. Extremism doesn't help.

Kara Swisher 36:56 Right.

Michael Moritz 36:56 And, uh, so do I think I will leave America? I don't think so. Um, am I deluding? And but I do place, and I com- uh, I think your analysis earlier on about, uh, when you were talking about your experience about the after the Berlin Wall fall is exactly right. The one thing that the Ger- one of the things that the Germans have done is to institute, and it's, as you said, more pronounced in the West, um, uh, in the Old West, uh, than in the Old East, is institute rigorous education about this period of the 20th century that is baked into the minds of the students. That does not occur anywhere else in Western Europe, and it doesn't occur in the United States.

Kara Swisher 37:47 No, not over the Civil War, slavery, not enough, for sure.

Michael Moritz 37:50 And, and, and the ignorance of what happened in Western Europe and in the US is, is, is part of today's, uh, part of today's problem. But you're right about the AFD and, uh, the rise of, um, of Ulrich Sigmund and, um, the collapse of Merz. But, you know, one of the lessons I took a- or one of the big lessons I took away from writing this book is, and it sounds glib, but I mean it, is you can never have enough passports if you're a minority.

Kara Swisher 38:26 [laughs] Many passports. Yeah, I, I'm getting my Italian one, if you can believe it. My grandfather was born in Italy.

Michael Moritz 38:35 Oh.

Kara Swisher 38:35 Um, but I f- I feel the same way. I f- I, I feel the same way. A- and do you feel that i- i- in terms of emphasis on history is, I think, disappearing in Germany? Either it's been over-taught, right, where people-

Michael Moritz 38:47 Mm-hmm

Kara Swisher 38:48 ... just start to ignore it, or, like in the US, well, it wasn't us who did that to Native Americans. It's not us who did it to, um, uh, slavery. It's not our fault. That's sort of Trump's version of it happening here in a lot of ways.

Michael Moritz 39:03 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 39:03 Which sort of has resonance to what happened to your grandparents.

Michael Moritz 39:06 Oh, absolutely. I, uh, I have a lot more sympathy for, uh, the people who were in America or the descendants of the people who were in America before the Mayflower arrived, or all the people who were shipped here in slavery.

Kara Swisher 39:25 Right.

Michael Moritz 39:25 And I think every, every country has-

Kara Swisher 39:31 Agree

Michael Moritz 39:31 ... sins of the past. Some are bigger than others.

Kara Swisher 39:34 Right. That's a very good point. Now, speaking of a

Kara Swisher 39:37 sin, you write about the events of October 7th, and Israel made you feel emotionally connected to the country's fate for the first time. Uh, Israel's subsequent destruction of Gaza, the killing of tens of thousands of Palestinians, and now the war in Iran have led to massive political shift in Americans' feelings towards Israel. The numbers are astonishing, actually. I've never seen anything like-- That's especially true for younger Americans. I have two older sons. You can-- They are ver- they've shifted rather dramatically, I would call... My wife happens to be Jewish, but I would call neither of them antisemitic, but it's something's happening there. Um, uh, how-- Talk about this emotional connection you felt to Israel, which you hadn't felt before. I mean, and you, you rightly attack some of these settlers. I think you call them heinous settlers or violent settlers. Um, talk a little bit about your shifting feelings, 'cause you hadn't been, uh, i- i- you know, particularly, this was not part of your identity, again, as an outsider.

Michael Moritz 40:31 Uh, no, you're, you're exactly correct. And look, there are aspects of... I, I cannot abide Netanyahu, and I think-

Kara Swisher 40:41 Yeah

Michael Moritz 40:41 ... uh, people like Smotrich and Ben-Gvir should be in prison. You know, two of his most influential, uh, um, cabinet m- uh, cabinet ministers, and the settlements in the, in the West Bank, uh, uh, are again, something that I find, uh, uh, impossible to, impossible to support. Gaza is more complicated. Imagine if in America, in the course of a few hours, 45,000 people had been killed, what the response would have been of this country, or-

Kara Swisher 41:23 No. 9/11

Michael Moritz 41:27 ... a just... 9/11 times-

Kara Swisher 41:28 I mean, I think-

Michael Moritz 41:29 Uh, ti-

Kara Swisher 41:29 No, I'm saying that, I, I, you know what I'm saying. I think we mo- That was one of those shocker moments.

Michael Moritz 41:34 Yeah, but this is 9/11-

Kara Swisher 41:36 Mm-hmm. Times

Michael Moritz 41:37 ... and I don't mean to belittle 9/11.

Kara Swisher 41:38 Right. Yeah. I get it

Michael Moritz 41:40 This is fif- 15 times-

Kara Swisher 41:42 Yes. Agreed

Michael Moritz 41:43 ... the size of 9/11. And I, uh... Look, this is a long-freighted conversation-

Kara Swisher 41:55 Mm-hmm. It certainly

Michael Moritz 41:57 ... about, about, about Gaza. And but I have more sympathy for the Israeli feeling towards Gaza. I have no sympathy towards that feeling on, on, on the West Bank, but my goodness gracious me, when you have that many-- Everybody in Israel knew somebody who was, uh, wounded or killed. And so it's this visceral reaction. You know-- Well, uh, several things, Kara, [chuckles] realizing that I'm gonna get a whole load of abuse for this. But, um-

Kara Swisher 42:35 Mm. It's a complex topic

Michael Moritz 42:36 It is a very complex topic, but, you know, 800,000 Jews were pushed out of the Arab lands in 1948, out of Iraq, out of Syria, out of Morocco, out of Algeria, out of Egypt, out of Tunisia. No United Nations support whatsoever. Um, my guess is that most of the people who are on the far left today have no understanding of that. Um, nor do they have an understanding of, um, you know, the, um, the fact that the Jews were also pushed out of their country by the Romans a long time ago.

Kara Swisher 43:19 Yes.

Michael Moritz 43:19 Or the fact that since, you know, since 1948, there's been no Palestinian government of, or faction that has done anything to benefit its people, and contrasted with Israel. So there's a lot in there, and-

Kara Swisher 43:41 Sure

Michael Moritz 43:41 ... and as I said, look, I'm sure terrible things have been done by the Israelis in Gaza. It's-

Kara Swisher 43:46 Right

Michael Moritz 43:46 ... it's war.

Kara Swisher 43:46 I mean, 70,000 Palestinians have died.

Michael Moritz 43:48 It's war.

Kara Swisher 43:49 Right.

Michael Moritz 43:49 It's war.

Kara Swisher 43:50 Right. Yeah.

Michael Moritz 43:51 And, you know, you look at... I, I doubt whether there's anybody, or all of these protesters, if you ask them what happened in Dresden, what did the US do to Dresden towards the end of World War II, to Hamburg, to other, other cities and towns in, in Germany? It makes the, it makes the Israeli response look mild. Look at the firebombing of Tokyo. So I think we underestimate the emotional reaction in this country of what happens if, um, such a significant portion of your population was, uh, was taken out.

Kara Swisher 44:31 Some of the protesters, let me use the other-

Michael Moritz 44:33 Yeah

Kara Swisher 44:33 ... the devil's advocate, don't, don't know the history and-

Michael Moritz 44:36 Right

Kara Swisher 44:36 ... but they are seeing what's in front of them-

Michael Moritz 44:38 That's right

Kara Swisher 44:38 ... especially in a highly social media fueled, image conscious world we now live in.

Michael Moritz 44:45 And you're, you're-

Kara Swisher 44:45 You know, can you imagine if you saw Dresden today or you saw the bombing of, uh, you know, of Japan? It would, it's a very different world in that regard. Do you know what I mean? I think-

Michael Moritz 44:58 You, uh, you-

Kara Swisher 44:58 Go ahead.

Michael Moritz 44:58 I, I completely agree with you.

Kara Swisher 45:00 Mm-hmm. And that to me is the difference.

Michael Moritz 45:01 Is, is Israel, there is no way you're gonna win a, uh, political debate about this when on one side you have hapless, hungry, wide-eyed babies, and on the other side you have a tank. There is no way you're ever gonna win that, that, uh-

Kara Swisher 45:21 And they haven't. And that, you know-

Michael Moritz 45:22 No, and they lost it

Kara Swisher 45:23 ... you're seeing it in the polls. So one of the things, let me bring it back 'cause it's a longer discussion, which I don't wanna get into right now, but when

Kara Swisher 45:29 you, when you're writing about this and what you took away from your book, how do you get back to it? Because, for example, your former company, Sequoia, is still investing in Israeli companies despite the war. There's several partners there that are a little close to Trump and loud, Sean, I'm thinking of. Um, includes defense startups that integrate AI into military hardware. Now, you're not at Sequoia any longer, correct? Is that correct?

Michael Moritz 45:53 Correct.

Kara Swisher 45:53 Right.

Michael Moritz 45:53 And, and I haven't been for quite a long time.

Kara Swisher 45:55 Quite a while, uh, after you, you got sick.

Michael Moritz 45:58 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 45:58 Um, but when you think about where we are now and the links to what was happening in your book, are you surprised by Silicon Valley's and sort of aggression here in that regard, and especially in these investments? And where does, where does it level out, given all the pictures, all the social media, all created by tech, incredibly-

Michael Moritz 46:22 Right

Kara Swisher 46:22 ... has created what is a very impossible situation for anyone to agree, right? Even reasonable people.

Michael Moritz 46:31 Yeah. I, I agree. And, um, I don't... I wish I had great answers, Kara. I d-

Kara Swisher 46:39 That's okay

Michael Moritz 46:39 ... I don't, I don't have great answers.

Kara Swisher 46:41 Yeah.

Michael Moritz 46:42 It's a horribly complicated situation.

Kara Swisher 46:46 Right.

Michael Moritz 46:47 I wish these people who had been protesting Gaza had come out in the streets and protested what the Iranians did to, to their people earlier in the year, or various other, uh, awful regimes have done to murder, uh, members of their, members of their own population, and crickets. You know? Yeah. Or think about Sy- there, uh, when, uh, um, the former ruler of, uh, of Syria was deposed, th- there were... Or during his regime, how many of these people protested against the atrocities he was inflicting on his people? Tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people killed in Syria. I don't know. I'm not picking on your two sons, but I don't know if they know about that.

Kara Swisher 47:43 They do. I made sure they did. [chuckles]

Michael Moritz 47:44 Good. Well done you.

Kara Swisher 47:45 I think it's just-

Michael Moritz 47:46 Well done, man

Kara Swisher 47:46 ... yeah, they go, they do, they protest all this stuff. Um-

Michael Moritz 47:49 Good

Kara Swisher 47:49 ... one of them's much more conservative than the other, I would say. Um, I, I'm gonna get away from this for a second, but when you think about sort of the lessons that you took away, 'cause one of the things in this is you are, like, it- it's very similar to Scott Galloway, who I do my podcast with. After October 7th, he changed. Did this experience writing this book change you in that regard, feeling like an insider maybe? Or what did it do to your, your psyche?

Michael Moritz 48:20 Well, it's what I mentioned earlier. I think it made me understand why, why I became, for, for good and for worse, what I, what I became. Um, and I'm not complaining about anti... You know, it's weird given the discussion that we just had. I'm not, I'm not whining about antisemitism. Antisemitism's a reality. It's been with us-

Kara Swisher 48:41 From, from time

Michael Moritz 48:41 ... for 2,500 years.

Kara Swisher 48:43 Yeah.

Michael Moritz 48:43 And nothing will change. And in a way, I think being, feeling the need to survive has really helped me, and, uh, has given me considerable strength and to persist. So I'm not, I'm not complaining at all about that. I think what, what this did to me was to be far more alert to And you know, the damage is done probably. My, my-- both our boys are in their 30s now, but I wish I had known this about myself and understood it when they were growing up, because my, one of my fears is that I unwittingly, unconsciously transmitted these, these feelings of fear, um, uh-

Kara Swisher 49:28 To your own kids

Michael Moritz 49:28 ... to them. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 49:30 Right. Which is interesting.

Michael Moritz 49:31 And, uh, so but all of that's in the past and done.

Kara Swisher 49:35 Right. Right.

Michael Moritz 49:35 And I can just make sure I don't do it for my grandchildren.

Kara Swisher 49:37 [upbeat music] Support for this show comes from Bilt. Everyone loves points. They're kind of a gift from your past self who wanted to give you a little treat for paying off your bills. Take your biggest monthly expense, for instance. For most people, that's their rent or mortgage. What if there's a way to earn points on that? That's exactly what Bilt was created for. They've expanded from their original renters rewards program, and now Bilt members qualify with mortgage payments too. Every housing payment earns you points that you can put towards a lot of cool perks, such as flights with top travel partners like United and Hyatt, Lyft rides, amazon.com purchases, and much more. Another unexpected benefit of Bilt membership, how would you like a personal assistant baked into your place of residence? Bilt members get access to what they call a neighborhood concierge. It's equipped to make restaurant reservations, book fitness classes, and find new local spots, all while rewarding you at more than 45,000 merchant partners. Download the Bilt app and join the membership where you live at joinbilt.com/kara. That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T.com/kara. Use our link so they know we sent you. That's correct. All right, I wanna finish up talking about San... We're gonna get away

Kara Swisher 50:46 from Gaza now. I wanna pivot and talk about San Francisco. You've lived there for decades. I lo- you and I both love San Francisco. Um, you're running a competition where you're offering up to $50 million to organizations with ideas to improve the city. Talk about those ideas. You also, uh, run a, a terrific newspaper, I have to tell you, the SF Standard.

Michael Moritz 51:06 Thank you.

Kara Swisher 51:06 And I just had lunch with Kevin Delaney, who is the editor, who is a very good friend of mine, who is a wonderful, wonderful journalist. Talk about why you've put all this money into San Francisco. Um, uh, and, uh, and, uh, y- you know, uh, and I know I have just interviewed Chris Larson. There's a lot of people who feel that, a- and you have said, uh, you said, uh, recently that San Francisco had been hijacked by a small group of political extremists, I think, uh, made it hard to build businesses. I underst- I'm very aware of what, uh, I think Chris called the homeless industrial complex, um, among other things. But talk about why you have stuck with San Francisco, and by the way, now with AI wealth, it's back again.

Michael Moritz 51:49 Oh, it's very straightforward. Um, this is, even though we talked about being an Auslander, this is home.

Kara Swisher 51:55 Mm-hmm. Me too.

Michael Moritz 51:55 It's where, where Harriet and I live. It's where our, uh, kids were born and grew up. Um, and I know that none of the fortune that's come my way, none of the good fortune, none of the good luck would have happened had I not lived in, in San Francisco. Now, if I'd lived in Palo Alto, maybe it would've happened as well. But it, it turns out that for, you know, close to fif- 45 years or so now, I've lived in San Francisco. This is home. And so I'm at the point in life where this is about, um, giving back, um, to others, and San Francisco is, you know, it's been well-publicized, went through a really, really bleak period. And about nine years ago or so, I beca- began to get very interested in how, with others, 'cause this isn't, you know, this has got to be a grand community effort, we could improve life in San Francisco. And with the idea that if we could show the way in San Francisco, a very deep blue city, it would be something of a template for other deep blue cities of, of greater size that are confronting similar issues. But, uh, I, I, I felt it really important that, uh, people in the city who cared had a trusted, um, source of information that they could count on, number one. Number two, we have a family foundation that 60% of its giving is in the Bay Area, the bulk of it in San Francisco. And then the third leg of it is getting involved in the political debate in San Francisco.

Kara Swisher 53:30 Right.

Michael Moritz 53:30 So that's what I've tried to do.

Kara Swisher 53:32 So when you think about, uh, what's happening in San Francisco, a lot of the tech people didn't do that. They took, they took their stuff and left, right? Or they kicked it on the way out, um, or e- egregiously kicked it on the way out. No, n- not necessary. Many of them are back, by the way, FYI. Um, but i- is there a responsibility of people with significant resources to give back? I mean, it goes back to Sutro, Alfre- Adolph Sutro. There was obviously the Bank of America founders, very involved in the city, the Gettys, very involved. Tech is... You're pretty much it. You and Chris Larson are pretty much it, um-

Michael Moritz 54:07 Well, um-

Kara Swisher 54:07 ... from tech

Michael Moritz 54:08 ... a couple of other things.

Kara Swisher 54:09 Yeah.

Michael Moritz 54:09 There were also, you know, a lot of members of the, of the Jewish community, the-

Kara Swisher 54:12 Mm-hmm

Michael Moritz 54:13 ... uh, the Haas-

Kara Swisher 54:14 Yes

Michael Moritz 54:14 ... um-

Kara Swisher 54:15 Haas, I'm sorry.

Michael Moritz 54:15 Uh-

Kara Swisher 54:15 Yeah, the Levi. Yeah, sure

Michael Moritz 54:16 ... and the, and the Straus family and the Dinkelspiels-

Kara Swisher 54:18 Yes

Michael Moritz 54:18 ... and Fleishackers-

Kara Swisher 54:19 Yes

Michael Moritz 54:19 ... and Goldmans.

Kara Swisher 54:20 Yep.

Michael Moritz 54:20 Lots of other people.

Kara Swisher 54:20 Ah, the Fleishackers. Yeah.

Michael Moritz 54:22 And who came here, made their fortunes in the 19th century and gave back. I mean, there-

Kara Swisher 54:28 They did

Michael Moritz 54:28 ... something, there's something of, uh, inspiration, uh, inspiration for me. Um, I think it's a, it's also a question of, you, you'll think I'm giving everybody in the tech industry, um, hall passes, but it's also, Kara, I think a issue of age. You know, I'm not running a company, um, day to day. I'm not 35 years old, caught up entirely in my business and without time to think about anything else. I'm at a, you know, I just turned 72, so I've got time in my life to reflect on this, and I think, I think part of it is age, actually. Um, and I've always been very sympathetic to Bill Gates's argument that he, um, that he conveyed in the 1990s when he was asked why he wasn't giving more away to philanthropic causes, and he said he felt that the best thing that he could do was to increase the value of Microsoft and then give subsequently, and that's what he did. And I think, um, to be... I, I think many of the, uh, increasingly wealthy tech founders, uh, will, uh, will follow a similar path.

Kara Swisher 55:37 Yeah, I just don't love them kicking the... on the way out. And then they move to Miami, and they move back. I'm like, "Just kee- just leave."

Michael Moritz 55:43 Oh, well, yeah.

Kara Swisher 55:43 Just go.

Michael Moritz 55:43 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 55:44 Just move along. Like [laughs]

Michael Moritz 55:45 Right

Kara Swisher 55:45 ... I saw one of them at a restaurant in San Francisco, and I was with an, I was with so- another big tech founder, and we both went over and said, "You need to leave because this food is too delicious for you to enjoy here in San Francisco."

Michael Moritz 55:57 Ah, I see.

Kara Swisher 55:58 Yeah.

Michael Moritz 55:58 Um-

Kara Swisher 55:58 You know? I was just like-

Michael Moritz 55:59 No, there, there's that con-

Kara Swisher 56:00 ... don't kick it. Don't kick it

Michael Moritz 56:01 ... there, there's that con-

Kara Swisher 56:02 Don't kick it

Michael Moritz 56:02 ... there's that contingent.

Kara Swisher 56:03 It's a... So every, uh, we have two more questions. Every episode, we get a question from an outside expert. Yours comes from San Francisco Mayor Daniel Lurie.

Speaker 56:11 Kara, I miss you. I hope you are well. Sir Michael Moritz, thank you for your investments into San Francisco. My question to you, because you give to a lot of nonprofits, and we all appreciate that, but how do we make sure, uh, to hold the sector accountable while lifting up the groups that are doing incredible work in our city and in our country? Uh, so that's my question to you. How do you focus on lifting up the good ones, uh, while making sure that we hold the sector accountable?

Michael Moritz 56:43 Um, I think it's, um, you evaluate each, each, uh, organization, and we, we try to do that at Crankstart without being onerous towards the organizations. And, um, for those that don't meet the goals that we have agreed upon when we've given them a grant, uh, we don't continue. And then inevitably, there are some bad apples here, and as there are in any sector, um, i- in any sector. Um, and those, those people should be run... Maybe they should be sent to Miami and run out of town. A- and again, it's like making investments in, in companies to some extent. Um, you'll be surprised positively in some cases, and then you'll be totally distressed in others. Fortunately, we haven't had much of that, um, where you have to say goodbye to them, and you don't want to see them again.

Kara Swisher 57:43 Right. Right, and I know you do that. You know, [laughs] two people in my life, uh, you've had, you've had beefs with. One is my ex-wife, Megan, who is... You said to her, she's an engineer, and you said, "You talk too much for an engineer" [laughs] which made me laugh.

Michael Moritz 57:56 Oh, dear. How rude.

Kara Swisher 57:57 Uh, I know-

Michael Moritz 57:57 I'm sorry. Would you apologize to her? [laughs]

Kara Swisher 58:00 I shan't. I think you weren't inaccurate. Um, and then Scott Galloway, of course. We won't get into that. I don't wanna l- I don't listen to him when he goes on about... But I'm like all venture ca- everyone has a beef with a venture capitalist.

Michael Moritz 58:10 Of course they do.

Kara Swisher 58:11 So I wanna, I, I wanna end on two things about where you think the state of... Two, two very quick questions on the state of venture capital. You obviously, Sequoia was a legendary firm. Where is venture going right now, especially since these AI companies are drawing huge investments, attracting enormous IPOs? Anthropic is looking for a potential valuation of 2 trillion. OpenAI is considering another funding round to double its roughly $800 billion. [laughs] These numbers are eye-popping, Mike, from when we were around. If you were a young venture capitalist today, how would you look at this situation?

Michael Moritz 58:43 I'd find something else to do.

Kara Swisher 58:45 Would you? [laughs] Because?

Michael Moritz 58:47 I think it's just become part of the establishment, and, uh, perhaps when I got into it, you know, I'm 85 or so, most people wanted to go and work at whatever it was, McKinsey or Bain or Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley. I think it's that genera- or their descendants now, those generations, they all wanna be in the venture industry. Join a seed fund, join a pre-seed fund, join a first round fund, join a etc., etc. And so, um, you know, uh, uh, to some extent, when I got into the venture business, it was, it wasn't undiscovered, but Sequoia had a fund that, they'd just finished investing the third fund. It was $45 million. And there were... You know, if we'd ha- we... Our whole holiday party we could have for everybody who worked at Sequoia, including, you know, the, the assistants, and, um, we, we could get a table for 12 and that'd be it. And I just like... I f- it was much more of an outsider's business then. It was not part of, uh, part of the-

Kara Swisher 1:00:02 The establishment

Michael Moritz 1:00:02 ... of the fashion and the establishment.

Kara Swisher 1:00:04 Yeah.

Michael Moritz 1:00:04 And so-

Kara Swisher 1:00:04 Is that a bad thing? What comes out of this then? Is it possible to create that again?

Michael Moritz 1:00:11 I think, uh, I think, uh, the genie's out of the bottle, and, um-

Kara Swisher 1:00:14 Yeah

Michael Moritz 1:00:15 ... you know the other thing that's really changed is that we lived in an age of pre-internet, of imperfect information. So if you were close to things that were happening, we talked in a different context-

Kara Swisher 1:00:26 That's true

Michael Moritz 1:00:27 ... about Gaza and Israel and, uh, social media and images and all that stuff. Um, today it's a world of perfect information. A company gets started here, there'll be 20-

Kara Swisher 1:00:38 Right

Michael Moritz 1:00:38 ... knockoffs in China, uh, tomorrow. And, uh, you'll have everybody in the Valley trying to finance a similar company. So I like being in the world of... It, it, I think it was easier in a way. It had its own challenges when Business plans were typed. They weren't, um, six-slide PowerPoints that you had five minutes in which to decide whether or not you wanted to issue a term sheet. It was not an auction business, which I think many aspects of it are today, and you don't wanna be in an auction business. It's too much of a, of a perfect market. So the quiet backwaters are the places that I've always thought would, uh, be more propitious.

Kara Swisher 1:01:23 Where does innovation come from then? The kind of innovation you saw in that garage at Google or Yahoo or wherever. Where does innovation come from now? Real innovation.

Michael Moritz 1:01:34 I think there are very few real innovations. Um, and I realize it's part of the myth of Silicon Valley that it's just dotted with all sorts of extraordinary innovations. I think Silicon's Valley's, um, advantage is that it's evolutionary, and it's capitalizing on evolutionary steps along the way that have allowed these companies, uh, companies to flourish. Yes, they all have their patent libraries. Yes, they all have... Many of them have extremely creative and wonderful engineers. But all of them are building on the foundation that's been built up over the last hundred years. And, uh, h- so I think we should pay tribute to evolution more than innovation.

Kara Swisher 1:02:29 All right. And my last question, you spent your career betting on the future, uh, through your work in venture capital and your philanthropy, and now you have a book that's very much about how the past shapes future generation. After everything you've built, funded, and now written, what are you hoping to pass down, and what do you hope will outlast you?

Michael Moritz 1:02:48 I don't believe in legacies. We all see names on buildings. We don't know who the n- who the names were.

Kara Swisher 1:02:54 Yeah, we don't

Michael Moritz 1:02:55 They've passed away. I think, uh, so I'm not worried. I think you gotta live for the moment, and do what you can while you're here, and not worry about... A- and, and try to do what you can to help those who've been less fortunate and leave it like that. And, um, uh, we're all insignificant little specks.

Kara Swisher 1:03:19 Mm-hmm. And yet you've written a book about your family. It's not that insignificant, right? What lesson did you learn from your family through doing this?

Michael Moritz 1:03:28 Tenacity. The power of persistence, the power of tenacity, and of not giving up.

Kara Swisher 1:03:35 All right. On that note, we'll end. Michael, thank you so much for your time.

Michael Moritz 1:03:39 You, Kara, you've been incredibly generous.

Kara Swisher 1:03:42 Today's show was produced by Vicky Varigolina, Michelle Aloi, Katherine Milsop, Madeline LaPlante-Dubé, and Megan Bernie. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Eamon Whalen, Jim Mackle, and Manolo Moreno. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Kwan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media podcast network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more. [outro music]