Behind the “Musk” Documentary Elon Doesn’t Want You to See with Alex Gibney & Justine Musk

Justine Musk 0:00 I, you know, kept thinking, "Well, this is America. You're supposed to be able to, um"-

Kara Swisher 0:04 Say your piece.

Justine Musk 0:05 Yeah, say your piece, you know, free speech. And, um, this is my experience, and this is my, uh, viewpoint. And, um, I didn't want to be intimidated into silence. [singing] It is on.

Kara Swisher 0:23 Hi, everyone. Today, we're talking about Elon. Of course, we are. How in the world did a man with a reputation for failing to deliver become the world's first trillionaire? And why do we let him amass so much power and influence? Filmmaker Alex Gibney wanted to tackle these questions, and he did so in a new documentary, Musk. It clocks in at four hours, and it's worth every minute. Of course, I'm in the film, so is Musk's first wife, Justine. She's speaking out here in this documentary, and both of them are here with me today to talk about it. I think it's important to track Elon. He is the most powerful figure in our society and politics right now, in my estimation. So let's get into it. Alex and Justine, thank you for coming on On. I really appreciate it.

Alex Gibney 1:04 Great. Great to be here.

Kara Swisher 1:05 First of all, first of all, amazing movie, uh, an astonishing documentary. Uh, very long, obviously.

Alex Gibney 1:11 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 1:11 And I will say, Justine, I find you to be at the center of it. I think you're... What you're, what you were saying was really important for people to understand, especially in the context of this very long story.

Justine Musk 1:22 Thank you.

Kara Swisher 1:23 Um-

Justine Musk 1:23 I appreciate that.

Kara Swisher 1:24 So let's begin. Uh, Alex, you started work on this film in two thousand, uh, twenty-two, a little after Elon Musk first became the richest man in the world, before he got involved with Trump. Uh, I, I'll also say when I was speaking to him. Um, why did you want to make a film at the outset, and talk about the changing nature of it when you were making it? Obviously, the big

Kara Swisher 1:47 question for a lot of people that ask me is, why does it need to be four hours?

Alex Gibney 1:50 [laughs] Well, it became a, a much, much bigger story. I mean, to be honest, we were ready in early twenty twenty-four to finish the film as a, as a less than two-hour film. And, you know, that film was about, um, twenty-first century power, but it's mostly economic power, not necessarily political power. And, um, and then when Trump was nearly assassinated and, uh, Elon Musk hitched his wagon to Trump, the story changed. And HBO actually were the ones who came to me and said, "Don't finish it. Expand it, because the story's gotten a lot bigger." So, so we expanded it. And obviously, the political dimension was huge. Even though I didn't really appreciate or understand that his political shift had really taken place in twenty twenty-two, I just hadn't seen it or, or, or didn't know about it yet.

Kara Swisher 2:44 Right. A lot of people hadn't. So Justine, you've largely stepped back from the public eye, uh, w- uh, in the years since your divorce in two thousand and eight, with a handful of notable exceptions. You're a well-regarded writer. Uh, interestingly, so is Mackenzie Scott. There's a lot of [laughs] really amazing writers. S- I'm assuming you're still doing that, correct?

Justine Musk 3:03 I am.

Kara Swisher 3:03 Yeah.

Justine Musk 3:04 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 3:04 And, and

Kara Swisher 3:05 talk a little bit about that and, and why you decided to participate, because you have been not in the public eye, and I know it's not a place you feel as comfortable in.

Justine Musk 3:14 Yeah. I, uh, I published... I, uh, sold three novels, uh, to, um, traditional publishing companies, um, in my, uh, early 30s. And, um, the last one came out, I think, just when Elon and I were divorcing, separating, and, um, it, it, uh... And then the publishing world was changing, and, uh, I became really interested in blogging. And so that took me away from novel writing, and I, I think I became aware that I just wasn't quite sure of, uh, the kind of writer I wanted to be after what I went through with Elon. He really did, um, change my perspective in a lot of ways, and he's still doing that. You can't really [laughs] get away from him.

Kara Swisher 4:03 Right.

Justine Musk 4:03 Um-

Kara Swisher 4:04 Right. How, how does-

Justine Musk 4:04 If you know what I mean. And-

Kara Swisher 4:05 How, how do you mean change your perspective?

Justine Musk 4:10 I don't think that I would have been exposed nearly as much to some of the same things, um, if, uh, if I had not married him, because he really took me in deep into a world where my own interests, um, and talents, uh, would have taken me elsewhere. And so I often felt like, uh, uh, a, a stranger in that world, definitely an outsider and an observer. And, uh, like when you're living in a foreign country, it takes you a while to find your feet. And, uh, I don't think I really started becoming fascinated by it until after the divorce, actually. And I started to get more of a, uh, a framework for what was happening and the kind of moment that I was in. And then I, I feel very lucky for that. And, um, I like the way that Alex talks about twenty first-century power. Um, watching the arc of some of these guys, uh, 'cause I, I, I knew Elon in college. I knew his brother in college. Um, and, uh, his friends I met. We were all in our 20s, you know, mid to late 20s, early 30s. So just the, the rise of them, and I, I... I didn't know that they were going to take that, uh, turn to the right. That was a surprise.

Kara Swisher 5:44 Me too.

Justine Musk 5:45 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 5:46 Yeah. Did-- Why did you decide to participate, though? Because you've been relatively quiet.

Justine Musk 5:51 I was hesitant about it for a while, and I had, uh, several long conversations with Alex, and I, um- I felt comfortable with his worldview. And, um, I had, uh, I knew at some point that I wanted to come out in support of Jenna, my daughter.

Kara Swisher 6:11 Mm-hmm.

Justine Musk 6:12 Um, and there were things that, uh, I wanted to express to make sure that they were on the public record, so to speak.

Kara Swisher 6:20 Mm-hmm.

Justine Musk 6:21 Um, I know I'm not so sure I can control the narrative or that I would try to narrative, uh, that I would try to control the narrative, but, uh, I wanted the narrative to be something that, uh, I at least recognized.

Kara Swisher 6:37 Yeah. Elon's a little loud.

Justine Musk 6:39 Little loud.

Kara Swisher 6:40 Yeah.

Justine Musk 6:40 Yeah. And he tends to, uh, reshape things-

Kara Swisher 6:44 Yes

Justine Musk 6:44 ... as he goes.

Kara Swisher 6:45 Yeah, he tells the story to his own-

Justine Musk 6:46 He tells the story. Yeah

Kara Swisher 6:47 ... to the way he wants it done.

Justine Musk 6:49 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 6:49 Um, so d- uh, Alex, talk a little bit about, uh, bringing in the personal part because Justine's really at the fulcrum of that, like discussing that, so people understand Elon as a person. He's sort of formulated this character that he plays on television essentially, and now he's become that person, I think, in many ways. Um, and that happens a lot. Trump is that way, too. There's a very-- There's obviously a similarity. Um, talk a little bit about how you were thinking about that, uh, Alex, from a personal point of view 'cause this is a living person.

Alex Gibney 7:19 Well, I mean, w- uh, the first film before i-i-it

Alex Gibney 7:23 expanded was really about his professional and business life. Um, and it, and, and it, and it, it dealt with certain issues, but there, there, there was this idea of storytelling that was terribly important even in that iteration of the film and, and how he was telling stories [chuckles] that weren't nes- weren't necessarily true and grew further and further away from the truth. But when Justine and I started talking, 'cause it's always interesting, I mean, character matters, and you're trying to understand who this person is and how he does what he does. You know, she said a couple of things to me that were very powerful, uh, that, uh, that I, uh, I, I felt that I needed to dig in. One is she said, you know, "The personal is political," and, and that, uh, in the sense that you, you have to understand the person in order to understand their political journey. And then she also talked a lot about, uh, the challenges that she had. Th- th- she says something which she says in the film very articulately, which is that, "I first learned about gaslighting from Elon."

Kara Swisher 8:25 Mm-hmm. That was a very powerful-

Alex Gibney 8:26 Which is to say-

Justine Musk 8:27 That's a big Elon line

Alex Gibney 8:27 ... even in, uh, her personal life, she was dealing with somebody who was kind, trying to redefine the reality around him, and I felt that that was a very powerful and potent notion in terms of how you understand, uh, what ultimately he did both in the economic and the politi- political sphere.

Kara Swisher 8:50 Right.

Alex Gibney 8:50 This kind of fiction-making or even science fiction-making. Uh, and then, then the other thing that was interesting to me was trying to understand his, uh, w- whether or not he changed over the course of time as he accreted more power to himself, and, and that's something that Justine really had a lot of perspective on.

Kara Swisher 9:12 Mm-hmm. Talk about that line of gaslighting. I thought that was a really important line because-

Justine Musk 9:17 Uh-huh

Kara Swisher 9:17 ... it does extend everywhere. It's a little like a P.T. Barnum. Edison did this, too, by the way-

Justine Musk 9:22 Yeah

Kara Swisher 9:23 ... in his time as an inventor.

Justine Musk 9:24 He did.

Kara Swisher 9:24 And so did Franklin in a weird... You know, they all sort of tell their own stories in that regard and disregard reality. Um, why did you think of that, b- uh, both the personal and as it moved into the public space?

Justine Musk 9:40 Um, you know, my mind immediately goes back to something I said to Elon when, uh, we had separated, officially separated, and there were lawyers involved, um, but we were still in the same house. And, uh, we were, we were arguing a lot, and at one point I said something, uh, to him along the lines of, of, you know, "This, this thing that you do with the truth, like, um, I'm not, I'm not having it." And I didn't really have a word for it because it's not, uh, necessarily a lie, but it's not the truth, and it's a way of, um, of, uh, you know, pushing and pulling, uh, the truth and pushing and pulling or, you know, reframing things so that, uh, what you're trying to say has been, you know, twisted into something that you didn't mean, and that suddenly becomes the conversation. And so it's like having the rug jerked out from under you over and over and over again, and it, um, it's very difficult to live with, and it's very difficult to, uh, to have a conversation with somebody when you're talking at cross purposes. And I became aware that he, uh, communicates in order to control, and it's all about control, and it's all about having power, you know, over you. It's all about, um, dominating the room. In fact, I think that, um, whole, um, I don't know what to call it, philosophy or worldview is about, you know, freedom through the, the domination part, and they don't really see any other way to be, especially when they're, um, you know, especially when he's talking to a, a woman or a wife or a girlfriend or something along those lines. Um, so, uh, that was, um, crazy-making.

Kara Swisher 11:28 When you think about that, 'cause it does set up, uh, i- it's a bigger picture of what Silicon Valley does, create great things and at the same time lie, feel the need to lie about their efficacy or their damage. Zuckerberg does it around Facebook. There's some good things, but he doesn't tell you the part that's damaging or wants to pretend they're victims of something that you d- they mis- you misunderstand them in a lot of ways.

Justine Musk 11:53 Yeah, they're... I'm sorry, I'm just, uh, that victim thing. They, they, you know, they're so quick to accuse other people of having a victim mentality, but, but-

Kara Swisher 12:01 Right

Justine Musk 12:01 ... they love to be the victims.

Kara Swisher 12:03 Right.

Justine Musk 12:03 And, um-

Kara Swisher 12:03 Right. Uh, I always say every accusation is a confession ... for these people, which is interesting. So when you went, go, set about to do this, and then I'm gonna ask some very specific questions, um, this is the most powerful man on the planet, as far as I can tell, in terms of money, access, power, astride a number of key industries, right? A lot

Kara Swisher 12:23 important industries. It's not like he's running the taco stands of America or something that's not gonna really affect people, but it's space, it's communications, it's, it's all manner of media. Um, how scared were each of you to do this? Why don't you start, Alex, and then Justine? [laughs]

Alex Gibney 12:42 Well, I, I, I was, [laughs] I was foolishly not scared at the beginning because it, it felt like a continuation of a lot of the stuff that I had done. I mean, I, I had, I'd done an investigation into Church of Scientology, the, the Roman Catholic Church, um, you know, the guys at Enron, the, the US government. So foolishly, I just thought, "Well, I'll just do my thing." It, it, it, it didn't occur to m- you know, once Elon Musk essentially became the shadow president or had this weird symbiotic relationship with Donald Trump, suddenly [laughs] it was a, that was a different kind of power and, and you realize that even the rule of law was not gonna save you. Uh, a- and, and so then I began to be concerned, uh, but it didn't, it didn't stop me, but, uh, it, it-

Kara Swisher 13:32 How did it manifest, the concern? I, something I'm asked all the time, "How can you say such things about Elon?" I'm like, "What?" Like, I don't even think about it. But I should probably. But h- how did it manifest for you?

Alex Gibney 13:44 Well, you know, once you realize that, um, i- in a way, because he has the ear of the president, and this president is uniquely kind of transactional and, and has turned the Department of Justice into his own kind of revenge mechanism, suddenly you begin to wonder, like, "Is that, uh, mechanism gonna turn toward me?" Um, m- and, uh, you know, and I'm, I mean, there's history to this, right? But never so bold or blatant. I mean, obviously there was COINTELPRO with the FBI back in the day, but, but now you have somebody who's literally, you know, turning his, um, sort of s- searchlight for, for looking for enemies or, or enemies of, of friends of his.

Kara Swisher 14:31 It's called the Eye of Sauron, just-

Alex Gibney 14:33 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 14:33 ... in case you're interested-

Alex Gibney 14:34 Yeah

Kara Swisher 14:34 ... among this sci-fi book.

Alex Gibney 14:35 And this, this group, this group loves, uh, Tolkien, as I do, though, though typically they, they, they all completely misunderstand Tolkien. They think-

Kara Swisher 14:43 Completely

Alex Gibney 14:44 ... they're the, they, they're the hobbits and, and they're really Sauron and, and Saruman. But that's a, that's another story. But so, uh, uh, anyway, it, it just occurred to me that, wow, not only, uh, might I be, um, sued, um, because that, that's the other fatal problem we have in this country, which is that the legal system is, in many ways, rigged for the rich, uh, particularly in the civil context. Uh, y- and, uh, and then you have suddenly a, a man who has the ear of the President of the United States and is willing to be vengeful. So it was, I think, rational to be somewhat concerned.

Kara Swisher 15:24 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Are you still concerned?

Alex Gibney 15:27 Uh, I, I, I, I-

Kara Swisher 15:28 We'll get into more specifics in a minute.

Alex Gibney 15:30 Yeah, I mean, um, of course. I mean, look, he threatened to sue. It's still possible he'll sue. Other stuff could happen. And yes, and, and to be honest, I've taken certain precautions. But I think the best precaution is, uh, as I think you've discovered, Kara, is sometimes you can hide in plain sight-

Kara Swisher 15:48 Right

Alex Gibney 15:48 ... by simply speaking your mind.

Kara Swisher 15:50 That's right.

Alex Gibney 15:50 Speaking your mind turns out to be terribly important because other people tend to agree.

Kara Swisher 15:54 Yeah.

Alex Gibney 15:54 And the next thing-- And, and, and these people care deeply, um-

Kara Swisher 15:59 That is true

Alex Gibney 15:59 ... in, in a way that I find interesting about what others think of them.

Kara Swisher 16:03 Yeah, yeah.

Alex Gibney 16:04 And so speaking out is the best defense, I think.

Kara Swisher 16:06 It, it often, it often is. One thing someone told me w- 'cause I've been pretty hostile to a lot of tech people is like, "How can you do it?" I said, "Well, they're gonna have to shoot me in front of everybody. That's what's gonna have to happen here."

Alex Gibney 16:18 [laughs] Yeah.

Kara Swisher 16:19 "So people can see, and that's one thing or another. It's not gonna be quiet." Talk about this with you, Justine, 'cause you have a, you know, a personal issue, children, and, and, and you're gonna have a lifelong... I am blessed with the fact that my ex-wife is lovely. [laughs]

Justine Musk 16:31 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 16:32 Um, and we've gotten along really well, but this is, like, the ex from hell in this regard.

Justine Musk 16:37 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 16:38 Um, you have five, five kids, correct?

Justine Musk 16:40 Five kids.

Kara Swisher 16:40 Um, talk a little bit. Were you nervous about saying something? 'Cause you have been quiet, and I don't begrudge anybody. Like, I know others-

Justine Musk 16:48 No

Kara Swisher 16:48 ... in his universe that have been quiet, and they often call me and say, "I'm really sorry. I can't say. I'm nervous. I'm, I'm-"

Justine Musk 16:55 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 16:55 That kind of stuff. I hear from all manner of people-

Justine Musk 16:58 Yeah

Kara Swisher 16:58 ... that have been close to him and then are not.

Justine Musk 17:01 Yeah. Well, he's, he's a scary, he's a scary dude. Um, and, uh, yeah, I, I was nervous. I'm nervous now. Um, uh, but I-- That also really annoyed me because I, you know, kept thinking, "Well, this is America. You're supposed to be able to, um-"

Kara Swisher 17:20 Say your piece.

Justine Musk 17:21 Yeah, say your piece, you know, free speech. And, um, uh, this is my experience, and this is my, uh, viewpoint. And, um, uh, I, I didn't want to be intimidated into silence, and, um, you know, I haven't been feeling well over the last, uh, six years. I mean, you know, long COVID or what- whatever it was, so that was a big part of it. And then, uh, everything that went, everything that, that happened with my daughter, I mean, I was watching that, and, and, uh, uh, of course, I have opinions about it. And it was more like, um, you know, at, at some point, uh, I'll speak when I'm, I'm ready to speak. But watching her, you know, get out there and, uh, you know, take the blows and the isolation, I mean, it's hard. It's a little bit like, um- Yeah, I, I... I'm sorry, I have to-

Kara Swisher 18:18 That's okay

Justine Musk 18:19 ... I have to reset a little bit. Um, I did, you know, remind myself I'm not here to trash him or, you know, be bitter or anything like that.

Kara Swisher 18:28 You aren't.

Justine Musk 18:29 It was just, um, uh, I don't like what's happening with language. Um, as a writer, you know, uh, watching everything get, you know, abstracted into algorithms and then the, the, the personal details, the things that make you, you, the way that they can kind of get, uh, you know, stamped out or, um, you know, contaminated with other things. I just-- It just seemed to me like there's something here about truth and there's something here about storytelling that, uh, is, is really important and shouldn't be left in the hands of, of, you know, uh, people who are trying to control the narrative instead of trying to explore it or, you know, surfacing the missing pieces.

Kara Swisher 19:12 Right. [upbeat music] Support for this show comes from Leesa. If you've got kids in the house like me, then you know better than anyone good sleep can be hard to come by. Yet study after study has shown how important getting good sleep is for your health and wellbeing. So if you're looking for a great way to start getting better sleep, you might wanna check out Leesa mattresses. Leesa mattresses are meticulously designed and assembled in the USA with specific sleep positions and feel preferences in mind, and they back it all up with free shipping, easy returns, and 120-night sleep trial. I got a great Leesa queen mattress. It's in my home in San Francisco. I've slept on it many times. I will not be returning it in any way. It's incredibly comfortable. It is made beautifully, and it has really improved the quality of my sleep. I'm very particular about mattresses. This is a terrific mattress. Plus, Leesa is committed to eco-friendly materials, that's important to me, and sustainable manufacturing practices. Go to leesa.com for 20% off select mattresses. Plus, you get an extra $50 off with the promo code Kara, exclusive for my listeners. That's L-E-E-S-A.com, promo code Kara, K-A-R-A, for 20% off select mattresses plus an extra $50 off. And when you use our code, you're supporting our show, leesa.com, promo code Kara. Alex, right off the bat, Musk refused to sit for an interview with you, obviously. Um, in place of him, you, you and your team created a database of everything he'd ever said, uh,

Kara Swisher 20:37 using technology to do so, um, and then used his words to create a computer-generated, uh, generated simulation of Elon, which is kind of fun given how he's obsessed with simulation. Um, the words are all his. It's not a bot. Talk us how you landed on that decision and the ethical considerations you took into account as a documentary, uh, filmmaker. And obviously, it's all his words. There's nothing... It, it's not anticipating what he might say, it's what he did say.

Alex Gibney 21:04 Yeah, and, and it's not, um, a, a, a, a, a manufactured replica of his voice. It, it's-

Kara Swisher 21:11 Mm-hmm

Alex Gibney 21:11 ... all his voice. It's audio-

Kara Swisher 21:12 Yeah

Alex Gibney 21:12 ... recordings of, of what he said.

Kara Swisher 21:14 Mm-hmm.

Alex Gibney 21:14 Um, I mean, you know, to some extent, I've had an experience in, in terms of, uh, trying to put people who didn't want to speak for one reason or another or couldn't speak or couldn't show themselves, you know, i-i-in other films. Uh, in "Client 9," there was an escort who I, uh, who, who agreed to talk to me but didn't want her identity revealed. So-

Kara Swisher 21:37 Right, so in shadows, yeah

Alex Gibney 21:38 ... I, I got-- No, I, I got an actress 'cause I felt that that would be more compelling.

Kara Swisher 21:43 Ah.

Alex Gibney 21:43 I didn't wanna do her in shadow because that would've made her look like a, a kind of, um... I, I, I transcribed our interview and then had an actress perform it. I revealed it in the show, but, um, in the film, but, but, but I felt it was more human and more compelling. In another case, in "Zero Days," a film about, uh, the, the Stuxnet, uh, computer worm, I got a number of people from the NSA to talk, and then I created a composite character with their, um, transcripts and, and, and, and, and, and, and had it voiced by an actress who was kind of weirdly digitized in, in ways that, that, uh, seemed a-appropriate for that film. In this one, I thought, "Well, okay, he's not gonna talk, but I really wanna present his point of view, and in some case, I wanna have an argument with him." Um, so uh, I'll create this character, but I was fascinated how much he went back to this idea of the simulation. He's obsessed with that idea for all sorts of reasons, I think. And so I thought, "Well, okay, how about a simulated interview? That would be interesting." And we, we went and designed, you know, two camera angles with our, our, my partners on visual effects called Make Make and, uh, decided what he would be dressed like and, you know, he would be in a gamer chair 'cause he's obsessed with the video game thing. A-and that that would become the interview. And interestingly, that also feathers into, to issues of AI and how we feel about AI and this weird personal transference that takes place with AI, um, bo-bots or LLMs. I- 'cause people have told me as they watch the film, they know that the, the interview of Elon, which I, I, I should say makes him look pretty good, I think. But, um, that after a while-

Justine Musk 23:29 It's very flattering

Alex Gibney 23:29 ... they forget that it's not-

Kara Swisher 23:30 [laughs] It's very flattering. It's very flattering.

Alex Gibney 23:33 D- uh, I forget that it's not real.

Kara Swisher 23:34 He's smooth. [laughs]

Alex Gibney 23:35 And, and they start to identify and, and engage with it as if, "Oh my God, I, I'm-"

Kara Swisher 23:40 Yeah.

Alex Gibney 23:40 Because th- th- we purposefully had the camera, ha-had the, had the avatar look directly into the camera. So for all those reasons, it seemed to make sense to me cinematically, and yet I could defend it journalistically because-

Kara Swisher 23:53 Right

Alex Gibney 23:53 ... those are Elon's words.

Kara Swisher 23:54 Those are his words and how he-- what he says on any, on any of those topics.

Alex Gibney 23:58 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 23:58 You also dressed him in his typical way, which is I think a late 1980s lesbian kinda look he has to him.

Alex Gibney 24:04 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 24:04 Um, [laughs] that's his kind of clothing these days. Um-

Justine Musk 24:07 I just realized it was the eye contact-

Kara Swisher 24:09 Yeah

Justine Musk 24:09 ... I think, in the movie, because he's, he often is, like, his, his simulation is often looking at the camera and he's looking directly at you. And-

Kara Swisher 24:15 Yeah

Justine Musk 24:15 ... in real life he's, like, usually often, like, he's distracted, he's on his phone. So I think-

Kara Swisher 24:19 Yeah

Justine Musk 24:19 ... it's, it's-- I mean, the word uncanny keeps coming to mind, and it was strange. It was, uh, it- Him and not him, um, and, uh, his, his, uh, something about his eyes and, uh, his, uh, manner, uh, I was often reminded of Errol, his father. And so there was, there was that element. In terms of, uh, I definitely recognize the words, I recognize the attitude, and it just made me realize about the thing about AI and the thing about, like, large language models and all of that, is that you don't really get to say anything new. You know, there's, there's a, a point where the evolution of, of the thinking, you know, stops.

Kara Swisher 24:58 Right.

Justine Musk 24:58 And it, it, like, freezes in place. And so it's, um, uh, seems like an interesting possibility that you can kind of like tell when that-

Kara Swisher 25:08 Yeah

Justine Musk 25:08 ... when that conversation froze. Like, we'll be able to, to track that person's-

Kara Swisher 25:12 Yeah. No, I thought it was-

Justine Musk 25:14 ... comments

Kara Swisher 25:14 ... really interesting. At first, it's uncomfortable. You're right. It's, 'cause they, he is looking at the camera, and he n- doesn't. That's another thing. But at the same time, it feels simulated. It has a simulated feel to it. Um-

Justine Musk 25:25 The empathy-

Kara Swisher 25:26 Yeah

Justine Musk 25:27 ... part, you know, that was kind of a little bit of a revelation for me. I wasn't, um-

Kara Swisher 25:32 Explain

Justine Musk 25:32 ... um, this idea that, uh, empathy is, is, uh, the suicide of Western civilization.

Kara Swisher 25:38 Yeah, that's their new thing.

Justine Musk 25:40 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 25:40 Yeah.

Justine Musk 25:41 Yeah. Um-

Kara Swisher 25:42 The Pope is doing his level best to push back, but, uh, but they, they all have that version.

Justine Musk 25:47 I think it's, I think it's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Kara Swisher 25:50 I-

Justine Musk 25:50 You know?

Kara Swisher 25:51 Thank you.

Justine Musk 25:51 I think it's really, really, uh, intellectually vapid, but that's, you know, another conversation. [chuckles]

Kara Swisher 25:58 Well, they say a lot of things that are in-- Like what? It's just nonsense, is what, what I feel like. That said, the film is still making Hollywood and tech nervous. Universal has denied reports it's getting cold feet about releasing the film outside of North

Kara Swisher 26:11 America. They have international rights. Alex, you've expressed fears as justified about the Paramount-Warner Bros. merger. It is being bought by a man who is close friends with Elon, Larry Ellison. As much as you wanna talk about David Ellison, Larry Ellison is the, is the wizard behind and the money behind it all. Uh, the film is supposed to hit HBO early next year. HBO is owned by Warner Bros. Uh, of course, there was the recent incident about ads on platforms, where some of them have reversed themselves. Um, I can believe they made a mistake on, in some cases. At the other times, you do start to get in the conspiracy theory, like that they wanted to see how far they could push it. Uh, Semafor reported the Ellisons may ask Musk for money to help finance the merger. Alex, you start. What does it say about the state of the documentary business that a filmmaker with your reputation is facing these kind of headwinds? And then, uh, I'd love to know what you think about the use of power here in media. Go ahead, Alex.

Alex Gibney 27:05 Well, I, I mean, it, it really shows you the level of consolidation. Um, whether it's a soft consolidation, which, you know, uses a series of rules to enforce, you know, a certain permitted kind of discourse, or hard consolidation, which is basically we're putting our foot down and we're either gonna censor stuff we don't like or, or we're gonna, um, m- w- we're not gonna allow it to be seen. So it, it, it, it really, it, it brought home, in a very personal way, uh, just how pernicious this consolidation is. And, and also, to some extent, uh, a- and I can't s-- I mean, Universal's on side now, and they, and they're, and we're gonna have a, um, a, uh, you know, discussion with them later this week about their release pattern. Great. But, you know, for a long time, they, they were kinda missing in action, and I think in part because they were sort of, uh, I, I, I don't wanna speak for them, but it, it may be that they were concerned and like, "Well, do we, do we wanna go up against this oligarch?" And, and after all, uh, so, uh, uh, uh, uh-

Kara Swisher 28:17 And at this point, they're kind of the good guys [chuckles] in a weird way.

Alex Gibney 28:20 Right.

Kara Swisher 28:20 Like-

Alex Gibney 28:20 Sure

Kara Swisher 28:21 ... you know. [chuckles]

Alex Gibney 28:21 They are, because, um, um, they're not in sort of the transactional camp. In other words, we'll make our peace with Trump and, um, and, and we'll do what he wants and, and then he'll look the other way when we wanna do what we want. Like, like have this ridiculous merger which clearly violates all sorts of a- antitrust and free speech principles, but it, it's gonna go through anyway because you, you, you, you have a, a Justice Department that just doesn't care, so long as Trump says it's what he wants. So it, it, it, it, it... You really see [chuckles] the face of power and how it's defining discourse and how the rest of us have to find sort of off-beat ways of speaking back.

Kara Swisher 29:04 Are you worried about HBO, which has a stellar reputation among documentaries and everything else, not, not releasing this?

Alex Gibney 29:12 Well, I, I am. I mean, fir- first of all, I should say that HBO's been great. I mean-

Kara Swisher 29:16 Mm-hmm

Alex Gibney 29:16 ... the, the people-

Kara Swisher 29:17 Casey Bloys

Alex Gibney 29:17 ... who are there now, uh, are, are, are just magnificent. They're, they're, they're, they're so supportive. They're the ones who encouraged me to make it longer, uh, which [chuckles] is rare for a director. "Make it longer, please." Um, and, uh, they, they've been great on the lawyering side. You know, I went through the trial of fire with them with, with Scientology, so they've been awesome. But, you know, I'd have to be a fool not to think that something bad might happen if Elon Musk were to help the Ellisons. Then suddenly the guy who's an owner in the platform is now the subject of a critical documentary about him. So I'm concerned. But the benefit that we have is it's about to open in theaters, so you'd be trying to put a, uh, something that's already been seen back into the box.

Kara Swisher 30:08 Right.

Alex Gibney 30:08 And so that's the, the benefit of the Bleecker Street, um, release, which I should say they've been great too. You know, uh, um... And, and it reminds me of back in the day when I d- you know, many years ago, I did a f- uh, uh, produced and w- wrote and produced a film called "The Trials of Henry Kissinger"- And no broadcaster would touch it. But, you know, we had this little-- ex-except the BBC, but no broadcaster in this country would touch it. And then we had this little distributor, First Run Features, and it started playing in theaters. It played at the Film Forum for four months, and then it started to play around the country. So now we're back in this era where suddenly theatrical distribution becomes a mechanism for, um,

Alex Gibney 30:51 saying stuff that you can't say on these services, which are conflict-averse or actually, or, or literally propagandistic.

Kara Swisher 30:59 Yeah, you're not getting ads on X or Twitter. Correct.

Alex Gibney 31:03 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 31:03 Anyway, uh-

Alex Gibney 31:04 Yeah

Kara Swisher 31:04 ... that's okay. He can do, it's his. He bought it, and he can do whatever he wants on it. Um, how do you look at this? This-- 'cause you just were talking about you wanted to say the truth, and you, you thought, "We live in America." H- when you think about the consolidation of power here, it does feel disturbing, the abil- the non-ability to tell the truth or being censored in a lot, which is, of course, what they complain about themselves, again.

Justine Musk 31:30 Well, it goes back to what you were saying about, uh, they don't wanna let anybody else talk. And, uh, I just remember dinners when I was married, and, um, uh, Elon's family had this, uh... They would talk about his father, Errol, and how Errol, uh, or there was this, uh, Tosca was joking about it at Kimbal's wedding, that, um-

Kara Swisher 31:51 This is his sister

Justine Musk 31:51 ... uh, Elon's sister, yeah, that, um, in, in the Musk family, uh, women are in the same category as, as, uh, dogs and children, you know, to be seen and not heard, basically. And so it's, it's, again, it's, it's that overlap of the personal and the political, where you see this, this idea that there's only one group of people who, uh, get to express their narrative because it's my way or the highway. It's, it's-

Kara Swisher 32:18 Mm-hmm

Justine Musk 32:18 ... my story, and it's not just, you know, my story, but it's, it's my-

Kara Swisher 32:21 It is the story.

Justine Musk 32:23 Yeah. It is, it is the story. And then as you, you know, um, and then there are, like, more and more and more layers put in between that and, and the actual, you know, assemblage of facts that you experience. I mean, it's, it's, it's not just the, uh, the map being confused for the territory, but it's like the, the map becomes, becomes the territory, and then the map is getting redrawn beneath your feet, and they can only do that if, if they lock other people out of the conversation. So just, um, I mean, that's, that's not democracy. I mean, democracy is a conversation, and if anything, it's, it's, um, uh, it's the responsibility to protect the parts of the conversation that are not, you know, the dominant forces-

Kara Swisher 33:10 Mm-hmm

Justine Musk 33:10 ... in the culture.

Kara Swisher 33:11 Mm-hmm. When you talked about that dinner table, y-you're, you're, you're not like this. Was this something that was surprising to you, or did it get worse over time?

Justine Musk 33:21 Oh, um, [laughs]

Kara Swisher 33:25 You don't seem to be a shrinking violet, is what I would say. [laughs]

Justine Musk 33:27 That comes and goes. Um, there were, uh, there were times when I would, I would, um... Oh, God. Yeah, I would get so bored, and, uh, I, I, and I, I wouldn't be able to hide it, and, uh, uh, Elon would get angry with me afterwards, and I'm, you know. And then I, I want to apologize for that. I want to apologize a lot. But, um, it's, uh, uh, but it was always, uh, uh, men talking and, um, men monologuing. And I don't mean to say that as, like, a feminist rant because-

Kara Swisher 34:03 Mm-hmm

Justine Musk 34:03 ... I've been accused of doing that.

Kara Swisher 34:04 No, I've been there.

Justine Musk 34:05 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 34:05 Yeah.

Justine Musk 34:06 But it's, it's, uh, like, um, it, it... You could really see where the power is at those tables. And, um, it's always the same people saying the same things.

Kara Swisher 34:21 Yeah.

Justine Musk 34:21 And then, uh, the inability, uh, to listen to other viewpoints becomes those other viewpoints don't exist.

Kara Swisher 34:31 Yeah.

Justine Musk 34:31 I mean, you're either like, uh, a friend of mine recently said something along the lines of, um, uh, "Oh, he's, he's, he's a non-Republican," and that didn't mean Democrat. It's just... Well, and then she said, "Well, nobody's really a Democrat anymore." And I was thinking, "Well, you know, you're saying this in California," but it's like, if you're a Republican or a non-Republican, then, like,

Justine Musk 34:53 Democrat, like, as a word or as a concept, like, that no longer exists.

Kara Swisher 34:56 Yeah.

Justine Musk 34:57 It's just a way of shaping-

Kara Swisher 34:58 Right. Right

Justine Musk 34:59 ... shaping the, uh-

Kara Swisher 35:00 Right

Justine Musk 35:00 ... the conversation.

Kara Swisher 35:01 [upbeat music] Support for the show comes from Rippling. You just found out your sales team is at risk of missing quota. Don't panic. Just ask Rippling AI. Since it's built on your real-time people and business data, Rippling AI can pull metrics from Rippling and Salesforce into a meeting-ready dashboard, which shows quota attainment, headcount plan, and monthly revenue to quota by region. In seconds, you'll see exactly what's behind your quota risk and fix it before it's missed. Question answered, action taken, crisis averted. When you have critical business questions that need answers, don't just file a ticket and wait weeks for an outdated report. Describe what you need and have Rippling AI build it instantly from your live people and business data, whether it's a dashboard with detailed charts or automated workflows with the right triggers, conditions, and approvals. Ready to rule your business? Head to Rippling.ai/kara. Get the only AI built to give you full visibility and take complex actions across your entire organization. That's R-I-P-P-L-I-N-G.ai/kara. Sign up for exclusive access today. [upbeat music] Let me move on to something else. Elon's also obsessed with the idea of presenting himself as an engineer. He fetishizes it. I have noticed this for many years. Why do you think that's so important to him? I mean, obviously, it's an imposter syndrome thing happening there because he's not the greatest technologist in the roo- in most of the rooms he's in. But he presents himself as thus. And there are some very significant engineers around, by the way. Certainly, he's technical, but how much of that image He projected was real? 'Cause it reminds me of him trying to sort of play Steve Jobs, but Steve Jobs never did that. He was very clearly not the technologist-

Justine Musk 36:41 Mm

Kara Swisher 36:42 ... um, Wozniak was. He never presented himself that way. He certainly was tech savvy, but he never needed to say, "I'm the-- I made this. I'm the engineer." Talk a little bit about that, and then Alex.

Justine Musk 36:53 Um, I'm not an engineer.

Kara Swisher 36:55 Yeah.

Justine Musk 36:55 So that was completely outside of my, my ken always. Um, it is the way he likes to see himself, or at least that was always, uh, my, my view on that. Um, but I always saw his, his, uh, his genius in how he puts things together.

Kara Swisher 37:10 Correct.

Justine Musk 37:10 Like, you know, he, he pulls ideas from different domains, and, um-

Kara Swisher 37:14 Right

Justine Musk 37:14 ... uh, he pulls people from different domains, and then he, he, um, I dunno,

Justine Musk 37:20 uh, really drives it towards a very, very particular result.

Kara Swisher 37:25 It's very Henry Ford-like, actually.

Justine Musk 37:27 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 37:27 That's who he is in a lot of ways.

Justine Musk 37:29 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 37:29 It's not Edison, it's Ford.

Justine Musk 37:31 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 37:31 Which is a very different talent, right? And I agree with you, I think that is an as- it's an astonishing talent to find things, put them together, and shove them through as hard. It's a real ta- it's a real talent. But he really does need to be seen as a techie in a lot of ways, when in fact that's not his greatest asset.

Justine Musk 37:48 But I think, you know, tech rules, like especially in that world. I mean, if you're a non-tech, you're a lesser being. And, uh, he considers himself hardcore. And I think, you know, the hardest of the hardcore is, is tech. And so I think that's just the, um, essence of, of how he sees himself, especially when he has to justify his lack of empathy by, by saying, "Well, you know, empathy is, is, you know-"

Kara Swisher 38:14 It ruins

Justine Musk 38:14 "... destroying our civilization itself." So I think it's just, um... And this is what he does. He kinda like, like engineers reality, or the reality around him to, to, to fit him, um, and to fit the version that he's selling to you.

Kara Swisher 38:30 Right. Exactly. So A- Alex, let's talk about that. One of the main takeaways from your film, and I think you got this correct, uh, is Musk's great invention is really himself. Um, and he used his cult of personality to reward, uh, hack the market. It's an idea that he can defy economic fundamentals 'cause people wanna invest in him, even if things he's promising aren't based in reality, like going to Mars, fully autonomous cars. So talk about that, the, the constant lie. And a lie is probably a harsh word, but I think that's the correct word here.

Alex Gibney 39:00 Well, it starts out with fibs, and then it becomes big, big, big lies. A- and, and that was one of the interesting things I discovered. Early on, um, you know, I, I, I, I made contact with a guy named Ed Niedermeyer, who's in the film briefly, who had written a book called Ludicrous, which really looked at the, the, the vast disparity between, uh, what Elon Musk said Tesla was and what Tesla really was. And it's not like there aren't great cars. I mean, I still talk to people who, who rhapsodize about their Tesla S, you know. A- and great, you know, but, but it, it doesn't nearly justify the stock price. But he learned early on to do certain things in order to be able to find the money to be able to float Tesla. 'Cause I think in a way, his genius is his talent for risk and also his ability to sculpt this story, which allows him access to the equity markets that otherwise he wouldn't be able to get. Or, or to reward hack, because that's the other important part of, of this.

Kara Swisher 40:03 Explain that.

Alex Gibney 40:03 In other words-

Kara Swisher 40:03 Explain reward hacking.

Alex Gibney 40:05 Reward hacking is this idea that you, you, you fulfill the conditions of, uh, a, a government reward, like, um, you know, doing, uh, battery swaps, which is the idea that you could pull into a gas station and have somebody swap out a th- a thousand-pound Tesla battery in a matter of minutes. It was just ludicrous, but he convinced people that it was possible, and that would have solved the biggest problem that everybody has with an electric car, which is range. But then he said, "Oh, no," w- once, uh, but, but it was tethered to this, um, uh, uh, inducement from the government of California that if you could prove that you could do it once,

Alex Gibney 40:50 you'd be the recipient of hundreds-

Kara Swisher 40:52 Right

Alex Gibney 40:52 ... of millions of dollars of, of, of, of tax benefits, so-

Kara Swisher 40:55 So essentially you're saying tell them, tell them what they wanna hear.

Alex Gibney 40:58 Tell them what they wanna hear and come up with a fib or a, or a, a, a wink and a nod. You know, fake it till you make it. So I think that, that it was the creation of these larger and larger fictions, which was... W- And, and one of the biggest fictions was this idea that he was an engineer. Uh, like 'cause, 'cause when I would talk to people at Tesla, I said, "Is he a great engineer?" They, they would like laugh, but they wouldn't ever say it on camera because they were afraid o- of Elon. But-

Kara Swisher 41:27 I heard, I've heard that over and over again with people.

Alex Gibney 41:29 Yeah. But, but, but that idea then, if, if like you, i- if you don't see the reason to, um, you know, buy in to-

Kara Swisher 41:40 Mm-hmm

Alex Gibney 41:40 ... Tesla's stock through the economic fundamentals, there's always Elon, and Elon is Leonardo da Vinci.

Kara Swisher 41:45 And then it's a s- and then it's a stock play. And then it's a stock play-

Alex Gibney 41:48 Yeah

Kara Swisher 41:48 ... that why not get in on it and then make it go up. Justine, talk about that idea of like performative versus real, 'cause there are real things here. Like as you said, he does put it together. Nobody was doing the car before him, and one of the things that I found really interesting is these were big ideas, space, cars, solar, climate. It, big ideas, and everyone else was doing a, like a digital dry cleaner. It was exhausting, and he wasn't. And some of these things did result in real products that were terrific. Why was that not enough for, that, that, that the, that the slow-moving acceleration, it had to be, "We're gonna live on Mars," and then you say, "Well, you know, you have to be underground in Mars, and it's this way to get there, and we will lose our bone structure. We'll probably become dumb." "No, no, we will be living there." Like why the need to take it to the, you know, put the volume up to 12 when seven was fantastic?

Justine Musk 42:43 Um, he's impatient. Uh, I, I just, you know, it's just, I think he has a different sense of time. I really, you know, Elon time. It's, it's, uh-

Kara Swisher 42:56 Elon time

Justine Musk 42:57 ... um, like, uh, I, I can't explain it. It's one of those things that sometimes you can feel when you're with him or around him. But, um, there is this... Other humans seem to fit very awkwardly into, um, the reality that, you know, he is sculpting. And, um, you know, like, there's, there's, uh, uh, that, that

Justine Musk 43:19 joke that he used to make, like, safety third. And, um, you know, when we're going into the era of AI, you have to wonder about that because of, of, um, his sense that, uh, you know, it has to be now, now, now, um, no matter the cost, and, um, the pain and the trauma that, that, uh, that other people go through because of, of, you know, the way reality gets wrenched around or the way that, that, uh, value gets determined, um, who has it and who doesn't. Like, that doesn't matter. That's just, you know, feelings.

Kara Swisher 43:59 Yeah. Right.

Justine Musk 43:59 So we'll just, you know-

Kara Swisher 44:00 Yeah

Justine Musk 44:00 ... press that aside, um, ruin-

Kara Swisher 44:02 Collateral damage

Justine Musk 44:02 ... Western civilization. Yeah. Um, I think this is who he is, and this is what he's comfortable with. And so if he's comfortable with it, then full speed ahead, and he doesn't want to spend any time in those areas where, um, you know, his, his strengths aren't necessarily on full display. So those are the, um, unnecessary areas.

Kara Swisher 44:28 That has to move on.

Justine Musk 44:28 Let's avoid them. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 44:30 Now, you mentioned, um, Errol Musk, uh, his father. He sat for the interviews. Every time I see him, I just, my skin crawls, I have to say. The two have a deeply strained relationship. I remember him talking about how much he didn't like his father, uh, uh, many times. Uh, he called him a terrible human being, and the New York Times investigation found that Errol had been accused of sexually abusing five of his children. Um, he doesn't talk a lot about his father, but he's around. He's, uh, he's quite around. Um, in, in the film, Justine, you said you understood him so much better after you met Errol.

Justine Musk 45:03 Oh, gosh. Uh, a little bit of a sensitive topic. Um, Errol is, uh, uh... There's a lot of silence around him in the family. Nobody wants to talk about him, and I think journalists have, have commented on that. Um, the stories around Errol when, uh, I first entered, you know, that world-

Kara Swisher 45:26 The Musk universe

Justine Musk 45:27 ... yeah, they were hard to believe. And, um, they were just, uh, you know, your m- my tendency was, was to assume that, oh, um, because Maye was the one who was telling them, "Well, she's exaggerating," or, "She's distorting." And then, uh-

Kara Swisher 45:41 This is, uh, Musk's mother, Maye Musk

Justine Musk 45:42 ... his mother, yeah. And then, um, uh, he, he, uh, visited us in Palo Alto, and I spent, uh, a couple of days, like, you know, walking around and talking to him. And, and, um, first impression, he's, you know, like, a nice guy. He's charming. He compliments you. He's, um, he seems to be, uh, willing to, to, you know, get along, to get along. But then, uh, you know, over time, things start to slip a little bit. And Elon would say that, uh, you know, "Errol can behave himself for three days, you know, at the most, and then he turns mean." And, uh, what I noticed was that, um, when Errol would get insulting, he would use the same language that Elon would use to insult me. And so that was, uh, that was a, a direct and powerful lesson in how patterns, you know-

Kara Swisher 46:41 Create

Justine Musk 46:41 ... yeah, they just pour through other relationships.

Kara Swisher 46:45 Well, you become what you hate, uh, sometimes.

Justine Musk 46:48 Yeah. And I was thinking about that, actually, 'cause one of the-- There's a moment in the movie when I think Errol is, is saying, "Yeah, Elon, he's, he's just like me. He's just like me." And, uh, when I was, when I was married, um, there would be certain relatives of the family who would, who would try to rein Elon in a bit when he was being difficult or, or, you know, when somebody was having an, an Elon problem, as, as Kimbal once described it. Um, they would, uh, they would tell him that he was being like Errol, or he was turning into Errol, or, or, you know, there was, there was something there that Elon did not wanna be.

Kara Swisher 47:28 Which he didn't want at the time.

Justine Musk 47:29 Which he did not wanna be.

Kara Swisher 47:31 Alex, talk a little bit about this. Um, uh, uh, y- you know, one of the... He has become his father in a way that I think he tried to avoid. I do believe he, he had disdain for him. I thought that was genuine, when he said it to me at least.

Alex Gibney 47:49 Well, what did you see-

Kara Swisher 47:50 And I don't wanna blame his father. He's an adult fucking man. Like, he can-

Alex Gibney 47:53 No, no

Kara Swisher 47:53 ... he can get some mental help if he really wants to not be that way.

Alex Gibney 47:56 Sure. And, um, and, and it, it's, it could be an expl- it could be an explanation. It's turned into an excuse perhaps. Um-

Kara Swisher 48:06 Mm-hmm. It's a defense

Alex Gibney 48:07 ... and I do think, I mean, one of the reasons I included a section on Errol in the film was because, uh, uh, you know, I, I felt there was an element of the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. He has become his father to some extent. Yet, at the same time, I think it's fair to say that, um, as Elon did say, that he suffered greatly at the hands of his father in terms of this kind of psychological abuse that, that, that, um, that Kimbal also talks about, and that Kimbal also s- talks about in the film. There's an audio recording

Alex Gibney 48:37 that we found about how you could never believe anything that Elon's dad said, which I felt I had to put in there-

Kara Swisher 48:44 The Hall of Mirrors, right

Alex Gibney 48:44 ... as if to say-

Kara Swisher 48:45 It's the Hall of Mirrors

Alex Gibney 48:45 ... like, don't believe everything that Errol says because, um- ... uh, he's a gaslighter. Well, that was interesting, because what happened to Elon? He became a gaslighter. There was also this very uncomfortable moment where I asked Errol Musk about, uh, this incident where intruders came into his house, and he claimed that he killed three of them, or th- three intruders with two bullets from a .357 Magnum, but then went on and on and on, which is, some of which is included in the film, about the different color of, colors of the blood that, that spilled out onto the floor-

Kara Swisher 49:24 They had different colored blood?

Alex Gibney 49:25 ... as if he was still, all these years later, reveling in the violence. So, so he's a complicated character, but I, I, I included him because he clearly feels very strongly about the fact that he and Elon are the same, and I think in many ways they bear an uneasy resemblance to each other.

Kara Swisher 49:43 Mm-hmm. Yeah, I would agree. Now, one of the ways, uh, which I think Justine, um, and I'd love you to comment, um, one of the things that really got me, soured me, lots of things, but was, two was the obsession with insulting gay people and trans people, and then it extended to Jenna in a way that was shocking, violent, ho- heinous. I, I don't know what I would do as a parent. I, I mean, I know I would do what you have done. Um, can you talk a- about a little bit, 'cause I think part of your speaking out has to do with your children, presumably.

Justine Musk 50:24 Um, [sighs] well... [sighs] Well, I mean, I, I recognized at, at one point that, uh, Jenna and Elon were on a collision course. And, uh, and then I, I, uh, uh, I would send, uh, you know, Elon long texts about it, you know, kind of like warning him or, or, you know, saying, um, like, "You have to recognize who she is. You have to-"

Kara Swisher 51:08 Accept her for who she is

Justine Musk 51:09 ... you know, uh, uh, respond to her differently. But he, uh, you know, wasn't really interested in my parenting opinions. I mean, at one point he kind of like dismissed it all as maternal spam and, and, uh...

Kara Swisher 51:22 Maternal spam.

Justine Musk 51:22 Maternal spam. [chuckles] Yeah. Uh, um, but, uh, you know, I, I wanted the kids to have the best relationship possible with their father-

Kara Swisher 51:33 Of course

Justine Musk 51:34 ... for, for as long as possible, and, uh, I wanted to, you know, protect any ability that they had to do that. Um, I, I think fatherhood is, you know, crucial.

Kara Swisher 51:45 Absolutely.

Justine Musk 51:46 Um, and I, I, I certainly don't take it lightly. Um, but, uh, uh, she, um, was in Japan when he gave that interview with Jordan Peterson, and that was really a game changer. And, uh, when, uh, he, he came right out and said, "You know, I, I was tricked into signing this, this release," I mean, um... [sighs] I mean, I, I felt like that, while that was, you know, directed at me, I was supposed to react to that and, and I felt like I might be being baited a bit. But, um, his decision to sign that form was, uh, actually an act that made me respect him more. You know, it gave me some hope.

Kara Swisher 52:33 Oh.

Justine Musk 52:33 Yeah. And, uh, and then, uh, I, I, I think he had to, uh, kind of, uh, fix the narrative, like going into, you know, this, this increasingly Republican direction. And, uh, he says in the film that he's socially progressive and, um, uh, which was another thing that confused me, because there were times when I was like, like, he doesn't really care. You know what I mean?

Kara Swisher 53:03 Right.

Justine Musk 53:04 Like, like-

Kara Swisher 53:04 Right

Justine Musk 53:04 ... like this is the kind of thing where-

Kara Swisher 53:06 No, I don't think progressive is... He, he doesn't care. You're right. One of the things that was interesting was I-- what struck me is that someone who liked having children or bearing children or creating children, but didn't really like the children part.

Justine Musk 53:20 Or the mothers part.

Kara Swisher 53:20 Or the mothers. Yeah.

Justine Musk 53:21 Yeah. He, he-

Kara Swisher 53:22 Yeah

Justine Musk 53:22 ... doesn't really seem to have much-

Kara Swisher 53:24 Yeah

Justine Musk 53:24 ... use for motherhood. You know?

Kara Swisher 53:26 Yeah.

Justine Musk 53:26 He, he wants the mother influence kind of like sidelined and neutralized.

Kara Swisher 53:30 So when that happened with Jenna, um, who's not in the film, um, what, what happened? Did that-- I mean, obviously it would anger you, but, uh, and it certainly, when I started to see it, it was really astonishing, largely because I, I recall a conversation we had. He called me in the middle of the night when Trump was gonna put an executive order against gay people, to gay and trans people, and he said, "I'm gonna do everything to battle this." Now, I'm not sure why he needed to be, you know, perform for me on that at all. Did it shift or was just that not true either, any of it true?

Justine Musk 54:07 Um, I, I don't know. Maybe he's trying to find a way to explain it to himself, to kind of like, like, uh, maybe heal some, whatever kind of cognitive dissonance he might be experiencing. He feels he has to, you know, believe and promote, uh, a very particular, uh, perspective, um, that, uh, really has cost him, you know, his daughter and, and, uh, uh, created like a, a, a lot of division and pain, um, in the, the family and, and the extended family. I mean, uh, so I, I... I don't know. But the, I mean, the whole woke mind virus thing too, I, I-

Kara Swisher 54:55 It's part of it

Justine Musk 54:55 Yeah, it was like, "Oh, this is the origin story of, of my, you know, rise as a Republican. I'm, I'm getting revenge for, like, the evil that it's done me," and, and, uh, it was, it was a, a WTF moment for me.

Kara Swisher 55:08 Yeah

Justine Musk 55:09 You know? Like, um-

Kara Swisher 55:11 And you weren't expecting it?

Justine Musk 55:14 No. You know, and he was reacting more to Jenna's rejection of him, but Jenna's rejection on him was, was based on her rejection-- I mean, sorry

Kara Swisher 55:22 Of his rejection of who she was

Justine Musk 55:24 His rejection of her at a young age. You know, like, like, she, uh-

Kara Swisher 55:28 Yeah

Justine Musk 55:28 ... she has to say what she feels, and she has to be who she is. She's one of the most authentic people you'll ever encounter. And so, um-

Kara Swisher 55:37 That must terrify him

Justine Musk 55:38 ... the price that being in his presence was demanding of her was too high, and, uh, there are people, and I am one of them, that when you spend time in his

Justine Musk 55:50 presence, you come away feeling really terrible about yourself, and you're not-

Kara Swisher 55:53 Yeah

Justine Musk 55:53 ... sure how that happens.

Kara Swisher 55:54 Yeah, yeah

Justine Musk 55:54 But he communicates his disdain.

Kara Swisher 55:56 Alex, talk a little bit about this, 'cause it does manifest itself politically too. It's this, "You may not be the way you are. You-- There's a woke mind virus. You're being controlled," when in fact they're trying to control you. You know, they're saying what they wanna do themselves.

Alex Gibney 56:12 Well, yeah, and he's always been somebody who doesn't want any constraints. But I, I do agree with, um-- And, and, and he wants to be able to exert his power and to control people. And if you have a child who's learning to be herself, um, that isn't-- That, [chuckles] that's very natural. It, it's what every kid does, ultimately, is to break free of their parents' control. It's, it, it, it's part of growing up. Um, but he couldn't accept that. And then it becomes be- because it can't be personal with him, it's gotta be bigger than that, so it becomes this rationalization for why he's going-

Kara Swisher 56:51 Using Jenna as a, as a, as a vehicle

Alex Gibney 56:53 ... Yeah, using Jenna as a foil to explain why he's going MAGA. But, w- w- you know, we now know why he went so hard MAGA, and it had nothing to do with that. It was much more transactional.

Kara Swisher 57:06 Mm, absolutely.

Alex Gibney 57:07 You know?

Kara Swisher 57:07 It was an existential crisis if Kamala Harris had won, you know, in that regard.

Alex Gibney 57:11 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 57:11 He needed the protection.

Alex Gibney 57:12 I mean, he could've gone to prison.

Kara Swisher 57:13 Right, right.

Alex Gibney 57:13 And, and, and not to mention all the civil investigations into his companies, which have now been-

Kara Swisher 57:20 Disappeared

Alex Gibney 57:20 ... utterly swept aside, you know? So-

Kara Swisher 57:22 Yeah

Alex Gibney 57:22 ... and that was very-

Kara Swisher 57:22 I actually said that at the time, and all his minions went after me. They're like, "No, no, it's about a bigger..." I was like, "No, it's about money. Like, it's about investigations."

Alex Gibney 57:31 Well, that's what they're all in it for. I mean, he's not unique in that way.

Kara Swisher 57:34 Right. Oh, please, yeah.

Alex Gibney 57:34 It's just he came up with a different rationalization for it.

Kara Swisher 57:36 Right, right. So in that, the shift towards conservative politics, and again, it happened-- COVID was when it sort of seemed to happen, but I think he knew the jig was up on many things, like, or it was moving that direction. He obviously got angry at Biden over, over the car stuff. I remember him calling me over and over again that he wasn't invited to some dumb get-together, which you chronicle in the, in the film. But, um, but he buys Twitter in twenty twenty-two. He becomes extremely online, which is an expression I use, like, in a way that I think he went down that rabbit hole of online conspiracy theories, uh, combined with a number of other things well reported in the, in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal about drug use. But it's more, it's all of them together it seems like, but Twitter seemed to be the m- the, the sort of fulcrum of that kind of stuff. Um, eventually he teams up with Trump, so he spends nearly three hundred million dollars to help get him elected. His reward is the creation of DOGE. Uh, Alex, on its face, DOGE was a failure. It cost the government more money than it saved, and Musk went on to say the government is, quote, "basically unfixable." So you argue he didn't fix the government, he fixed it to work for him and other tech leaders. Um, talk a little bit about this.

Alex Gibney 58:44 Well, I mean, uh, we now know, you know, in twenty twenty-two, he was putting his money all in for the Republican Party, uh, you know, way before, and which is, of course, bears out the theory about COVID. But to take your point about, um, DOGE, I mean, it was never about waste, fraud, and abuse. I think it was about destroying the government, and if you destroy the government, you destroy any constraints on you, meaning you, the, the businessman, you, the, the person who needs and wants power. The other interesting thing that we discovered was that these DOGE boys who went into agency after agency and had zero understanding of how those agencies worked and didn't seem to care, but they were very sophisticated about one thing, and that was how they accessed the data, and they were granted something called super admin status, um, which meant that they could-- They had total access to the data of those agencies-

Kara Swisher 59:42 They did

Alex Gibney 59:43 ... which meant, in many cases, our data. Now, we still-

Kara Swisher 59:46 Which had never been collected together. People-

Alex Gibney 59:48 Ever

Kara Swisher 59:48 ... this is something I talked about at the time. I was like, "This has never been-"

Alex Gibney 59:51 Absolutely unique.

Kara Swisher 59:51 "It's been in all kinds of places."

Alex Gibney 59:54 It's never m-- I- i- and we, we can, we don't know that it, it was taken to SpaceX, but we do know that, that if you have that kind of super admin status, taking that data to SpaceX would be as easy as taking a computer file and putting it in a folder. You don't need to, to, to hack in. You, you, you have complete and total access to all the data of the government, which is our data, which is purposefully siloed in order to protect us. Um, and so it raises the question, as is raised by Geoffrey Hinton, you know, the godfather of AI, and also, uh, um, uh, uh, Katie Drummond from Wired, of whether if he has that data, and I suspect he does, but I can't say for sure, then what happens if he's training an AI on that data, and, and what is that gonna do for our midterms coming up? So i- i- there's always bank shots with Elon. In other words, there's always the stated idea, and then there's something else that he discovers. Just like in Twitter, you know, I think he bought Twitter on a dare. It was just sort of fun-

Kara Swisher 1:00:59 No

Alex Gibney 1:00:59 ... and wacky.

Kara Swisher 1:01:00 Yeah.

Alex Gibney 1:01:00 But then he turns it into a propaganda machine for himself.

Kara Swisher 1:01:06 Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think so. One of the things I was told by Mark Cuban at the time when everyone was talking about he just likes being online, he likes tweeting. Mark Cuban actually called me, said, "No, he's buying it for influence."

Alex Gibney 1:01:16 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:01:17 "That's what he's doing, Kara. Just understand that when he goes into a meeting in India as the head of Tesla, it's one thing. It's just like going in as the head of Ford or whatever. When he goes in as the head of Twitter and Tesla, it creates a whole new thing." Justine, when this started happening, obviously the first indication was Jenna, right? Was the beginning of it. When you saw that rightward shift, did you think it was transactional when he realized that Trump was a coin-operated president?

Justine Musk 1:01:41 I think he saw somebody that, uh, he knew he could work with.

Kara Swisher 1:01:45 Mm-hmm.

Justine Musk 1:01:45 You know, I think there was, there are a lot of affinities there.

Kara Swisher 1:01:48 Mm-hmm.

Justine Musk 1:01:49 Um, you know, Jeffrey Epstein is kind of like, uh, a ghost in the background, but, uh, they, you know, um, Jeffrey said some things about women, um, that, uh, you know, mesh really well with, with things that Errol has said about women and, um, when you kind of like extend that outwards, I think you have a, a, a philosophy on how to live and, and how to, you know, create order that, uh, not only makes a lot of sense, but, you know, starts to seem like the only sensible way-

Kara Swisher 1:02:33 To live

Justine Musk 1:02:33 ... to live, yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:02:35 Yeah.

Justine Musk 1:02:35 And, and the only future to bring into being. So it, it's, you know, the future, the only future. It's, it's, um, the dangerous future that's gonna destroy us all unless they are put in charge of it and, and they-

Kara Swisher 1:02:48 Right

Justine Musk 1:02:48 ... you know, save us.

Kara Swisher 1:02:49 Right. It's mo- it's monarchical, and you are an NPC, right? As-

Justine Musk 1:02:52 Right

Kara Swisher 1:02:52 ... which is one of-

Justine Musk 1:02:53 Yeah

Kara Swisher 1:02:53 ... Elon's favorite things. These people are NPC. These I so many times.

Justine Musk 1:02:57 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:02:58 And I-

Justine Musk 1:02:58 They're not religious, but they're-

Kara Swisher 1:02:59 I wasn't really paying attention

Justine Musk 1:02:59 ... they're the Messiahs. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:03:01 So w- w- one of the things that he was one of the earliest people to voice skepticism about AI, first person I heard say anything negative. Most tech people are up and to the right. He was not. He was very-

Justine Musk 1:03:12 Yeah

Kara Swisher 1:03:12 ... smart about this, as I recall. Um, at the same time, of course, he sees to get while the getting's good in developing his own AI through xAI and his chatbot Grok. It's not keeping up as much as the others, but he's going for it. He's going for it. One of the things you do well in the film, Alex, is you connect all these dots, AI with space, with cars, with government power, um, government ties in Starlink. Another, I remember when you discussed that idea for the first time, great idea, great big idea kind of thing. Um, that data of course is routed through SpaceX. Tesla's cameras and microphones can be used to collect data. What do you think it's all adding up to each of you at this point, where we are in the game? A- Alex first.

Alex Gibney 1:03:55 Well, o- one of the scariest things is that he seems to be a person who's psychologically unhinged, uh, and I think he grew into that, with an enormous power, enormous power, but power that he doesn't really know what to do with. There's a kind of chilling moment toward the end of the film where, uh, one person says, "Well, why is it so important, Elon, for you to accrete all this power with the satellites, the space, and everything else into one sort of global business?" And, and there's like a two-minute silence. He, he can't answer that. It, it's like Ted Kennedy being asked, "Why are you running for president?" He, he has enormous power, but no idea what to do with it, which is maybe the most chilling thing of all because the hardest thing to do in this film was to at once communicate the deadly seriousness of this massive accretion of power, and at the same time understand that there is fundamentally something so unserious about him, you know, uh, i- i- in terms of his perspective or his ability to see the world in some kind of holistic fashion.

Kara Swisher 1:05:11 Yeah, one of the things, you wrestle with these two contradictory ideas, uh, the public has of him. One is that he's a genius set out for world domination, the other that he's kind of a hapless chaos agent, um, and cannot pay attention to details and succeeds in spite of himself. How do you reconcile them-

Justine Musk 1:05:28 Uh-

Kara Swisher 1:05:28 ... Justine?

Justine Musk 1:05:29 I once described him, this was many, many years ago, but this is what comes to mind. I once described him as somebody who can, like, jump off the edge of a cliff and, uh, you know, invent a parachute on the way down. Like, he, I think he thrives on chaos. I think, um, you know, a lot of it-- When you read about PTSD, when you get to know, you know, more about how that reshapes the brain, I mean, that makes a lot of sense to me because, uh, if you, you know, listen to the language that he uses and, you know, like even taking into account that a lot of it is, is a pitch, it's, it's performative. But, you know, everything is, is, um, uh, it's v- it's very, very urgent. You know, um, we're going to die. The world is going to-

Kara Swisher 1:06:09 Mm-hmm

Justine Musk 1:06:09 ... you know, be destroyed. The, uh-

Kara Swisher 1:06:11 It's, it's a suicidal-

Justine Musk 1:06:12 Yeah

Kara Swisher 1:06:12 ... almost a suicidal apocalyptic.

Justine Musk 1:06:14 Yeah. Everything is, is life and death, and, um, I think he, you know, he, he really lives like that. He really lives with that pitch of intensity, and that's the place where he-

Kara Swisher 1:06:22 Right

Justine Musk 1:06:22 ... feels comfortable. And so if he's too comfortable, you know, he, he, uh, um, looks for that chaos.

Kara Swisher 1:06:30 Right.

Justine Musk 1:06:31 And I'm, you know-- And he, he brings it with him, and he has a way of, of sucking you into it, and at first it can look a lot like excitement. It's, it's that intensity. Um, I, I think

Justine Musk 1:06:45 he really needs that. And so I think, um, uh... I always assume that there's a method to his madness. You know, um, a lot of sleight of hand sometimes. You know, "Oh, look over here," and then he's doing something-

Kara Swisher 1:07:03 Right, a trickster, yeah.

Justine Musk 1:07:04 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:07:05 Yeah. I would agree too.

Justine Musk 1:07:06 Okay.

Kara Swisher 1:07:06 You never know.

Justine Musk 1:07:06 Yeah. And, you know, I think there's a lot of, um, um- Engineering of language, you know, engineering of belief systems. You know, like to take that from, you know, that kind of, of systems thinking is like working with something physical and tangible, then, uh, you know, you've, you've put rockets into space, then, uh, let's go after human minds. I mean, that's such a key idea in science fiction.

Kara Swisher 1:07:33 It is.

Justine Musk 1:07:33 It's, it's... Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:07:34 Yeah. So every episode, we have just two more questions. Every episode, we get a question from an outside expert. Here is yours.

Speaker 1:07:41 Hi, it's Kirsten Grind. I'm an investigations reporter at The New York Times, and I've covered Elon Musk for a lot of years now. My question for you is about his legacy, actually. I'm wondering if at this point, with everything that's happened with him at the helm of X, with everything that's happened in Washington, with his problematic reputation, does that at this point outweigh whatever contributions he's made to society and technology along the way? Thanks.

Kara Swisher 1:08:17 This is a point made to me by a lot of people. "Well, he makes rockets. Well, the good outweighs the bad." Alex, why don't you go first, then Justine?

Alex Gibney 1:08:25 So I would say two things about that. I mean, I, I would say in general, the damage he's done does outweigh the good that he did, um, a- a- and particularly when you look at DOGE and, and, and the catastrophic thing and, and also what he has effectively done by finding a way to surround himself with this much power through reward hacking, which started with the Obama administration and ends with a transactional president like Trump. But I would say one other thing too, because I get this to some extent from, you know, w- in Q&A's from the fanboys. They're like, "Can you imagine a world, you know, without, uh, Elon?" And, and, and here's what I would say to that. I mean, I give him tremendous credit for creating a sense of mission at Tesla and, um, SpaceX, and that sense of mission attracted a lot of very talented engineers and executives who've done a pretty good job of running those companies. Elon didn't, you know... He didn't screw in every screw. He, he-

Kara Swisher 1:09:28 Mm-hmm

Alex Gibney 1:09:28 ... he's not the inventor, he's the investor.

Kara Swisher 1:09:30 Sort of the Willy Wonka idea, like the worm, yeah.

Alex Gibney 1:09:32 It's like the, this, this, this idea that he is the only person in, in those companies and everybody else is, as you say, an NPC, I just think is a wrong-headed way to think about it. He was an important catalyst for getting these companies off the ground, and I guess that would include the satellite business. Um-

Kara Swisher 1:09:49 Starlink

Alex Gibney 1:09:49 ... Starlink. Uh, but [laughs] he's not the only person. It, it's a, there are a lot of talented people that made these companies, and yet we've lived in a world where the only person that's important is Elon, and you gotta accept the bad with the good, which is sort of the theory behind Walter Isaacson's book. You know, it's like he m- he did so much good, so you have to accept the fact that he's cruel. Uh, no, I don't accept it. And, and, and, a- and, and the cruelty took us to a terrible place in terms of where we are in this country. The damage that is gonna have to be undone at some point in terms of what was done during DOGE is, is, is, is, is really catastrophic.

Kara Swisher 1:10:31 Yeah, the conflation of Trump and Elon is really s- a one-two punch for our country in a lot of ways. What do you think?

Justine Musk 1:10:37 Two of the favorite, uh, you know, quotes, they always come across in Silicon Valley, um, "The future is here already. It's just unevenly distributed," and then, uh, "The best way to, to predict the future is, is to create it, to invent it." So, um, and, uh, what is the future that, that he is deliberately trying to create? And, um, one of the things I noticed about Elon is that he is often guilty of the things that he's accusing you of.

Kara Swisher 1:11:05 All the time.

Justine Musk 1:11:06 Um, yeah, it's, it's the best, you know, the best defense is a good offense or, uh, something along those lines. And, um, he, uh, uh, when he, he announced on... It was Twitter at the time. When he announced on Twitter that he was, uh, a Republican now, he accused the Democrats of being, like, incredibly polarizing and divisive, and the party of, of, you know, hate and anger. And, uh, so then, um, like going along that theory, you know, is he playing to his strengths as a, as a warrior, you know, as a, you know, as a storm god come down from the mountains? Um, if there's no war, you don't need-

Kara Swisher 1:11:51 Yeah

Justine Musk 1:11:51 ... a war god.

Kara Swisher 1:11:53 Yeah.

Justine Musk 1:11:53 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:11:54 Yeah, that's true. You're absolutely right. Yeah, that war stuff is strange. Uh, this is m- sort of my last question. There's, it's two parts. Um, at one point in the film, you ask Alex a series of questions. What are Elon's goals? What are his actual motivation? And do we actually know the man at all? Uh, are either of you closer to answering those questions? Alex?

Alex Gibney 1:12:18 Um, w- w- we're closer to knowing them in some ways, and yet maddeningly, u- unable to answer them at a fundamental level. You know, what does he really believe? If he's the trickster, what do you really believe? And at some moment, you know, um, uh, is he honest e- enough with himself to-

Kara Swisher 1:12:44 Or can he be, given-

Alex Gibney 1:12:46 Can he be honest enough with himself to-

Kara Swisher 1:12:47 ... he has enablers around him 24/7

Alex Gibney 1:12:49 ... to, to, to, to go there? Um, a- a- and, and I'm, and I'm not sure, I'm not sure that he is. Yet at the same time, I think we have a much better understanding of the levers that he pulls in order to create the Oz-like image of himself. And so in that sense, I think we do know him better.

Kara Swisher 1:13:12 Justine?

Justine Musk 1:13:13 I used to think I knew him really well. Um, I think it's, it's, uh... You know, he has a way of, of commanding focus. Like even now we're, we're sitting here and we're talking about, you know, Elon, Elon, Elon, but you know, Elon comes with a gr-

Kara Swisher 1:13:26 Well, the film is called Musk, but go ahead. [laughs]

Justine Musk 1:13:27 Oh, of course, it's film. Yeah, even like Musk, it's, it's, you know, Musk could be many people, but it's-

Kara Swisher 1:13:32 Yeah

Justine Musk 1:13:32 ... it's, there's only one Musk, and it's Elon.

Kara Swisher 1:13:34 Right.

Justine Musk 1:13:34 Um-

Kara Swisher 1:13:35 Thank God.

Justine Musk 1:13:36 [laughs] But he, you know, he's surrounded by, uh, you know, a, a cast of characters, and they are remarkably consistent and, uh, you know, they, they bring in their set of influences, and there's a very definite worldview that's emerging. But I think, you know, you can go back now, and when you know what you're looking for, you know, you see the, the tracks and the traces early on.

Kara Swisher 1:13:58 How you got there.

Justine Musk 1:13:59 Yeah. And, uh, uh, I do wonder about that. I wonder about, you know, those leverage points when it could have gone into a, could have gone in a different direction.

Kara Swisher 1:14:11 Absolutely. That's what I think about all the time.

Justine Musk 1:14:13 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:14:14 It could have.

Justine Musk 1:14:15 It could have. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:14:16 It could have. That's what wh- a lot of people give me a hard time for liking him back then, and I'm like, "You don't understand where it could have gone." Right? There's unique individuals that can change things for the better, and-

Justine Musk 1:14:26 Yeah

Kara Swisher 1:14:26 ... and then it, then they become villains, and you're like-

Justine Musk 1:14:30 Yeah

Kara Swisher 1:14:30 ... it could, didn't have to be that way, which is what I think about a lot.

Justine Musk 1:14:33 I think ultimately, I mean, he, he has this, uh, uh, incredible, uh, energy that needs, you know, it needs something to work on.

Kara Swisher 1:14:42 Mm-hmm.

Justine Musk 1:14:42 Otherwise he'll like, you know, gnaw his own ankle off.

Kara Swisher 1:14:45 [laughs]

Justine Musk 1:14:45 Like, he just, he, he needs to be working on-

Kara Swisher 1:14:48 Yeah

Justine Musk 1:14:48 ... on a giant-

Kara Swisher 1:14:48 Yeah

Justine Musk 1:14:48 ... massive problem, and... But it, it removes him from people.

Kara Swisher 1:14:53 Mm-hmm.

Justine Musk 1:14:54 And, um, when you think about, um, all those, you know... Those, um, layers that get factored in through, um, accumulating layers of tech, um, space, uh, you know, the, the world gets smaller and smaller, and, and, uh, the people get smaller and smaller, and then you get to a point where everything looks like your toy chest-

Kara Swisher 1:15:20 Yep

Justine Musk 1:15:20 ... and people are your toys.

Kara Swisher 1:15:21 Right.

Justine Musk 1:15:22 And, uh, the one thing about Elon is that he absolutely cannot stand being bored, you know, and part of him really does wanna play, so. Um, you know, I think trickster might be a good-

Kara Swisher 1:15:34 Yeah

Justine Musk 1:15:34 ... a good word.

Kara Swisher 1:15:36 So, so my last question, how does the story end? All stories end. Or maybe they don't.

Alex Gibney 1:15:44 I don't know. I don't know how it ends. A lot depends on what happens in a month or so. Um, you know, E- Elon has hitched his wagon to somebody, uh, who, who benefits his short-term goals. What happens when that person is no longer in power? Um, uh, he's created a lot of damage and created a lot of enemies for himself. Does the pendulum swing back, or is it too late? That's sort of Cady Drummond's point in the film. He's accreted so much power, it may be too late. I hope it's not.

Kara Swisher 1:16:18 Justine, you get the last word.

Justine Musk 1:16:20 How does it end? Oh, uh, I don't know. I think we're heading into, um, a new type of 1984, you know? Eyes everywhere, and, uh, you know, Einstein has that quote about how imagination is more important than knowledge. What, uh, what separates us from, um, you know, from animals, our ability to imagine a future that's different from the past. And so I guess now the challenge to men like Elon is what can you imagine for us that is different from the past? You know, all these empires that have crumbled, and they've died. You know, all these wars that have destroyed-

Kara Swisher 1:17:01 Ozymandias

Justine Musk 1:17:02 ... worlds. Yeah. Babylon was. Um-

Kara Swisher 1:17:05 Babylon was

Justine Musk 1:17:05 ... yeah. Uh, how can you create, uh, Babylon is?

Kara Swisher 1:17:10 That's a great way to end. Thank you so much, both of you. It's a wonderful film, and you particularly are a standout, I have to say, in a s- in a, in a film of standouts.

Justine Musk 1:17:21 Oh.

Kara Swisher 1:17:21 Thank you so much.

Justine Musk 1:17:22 Thank you.

Alex Gibney 1:17:22 Thank you, Kara.

Kara Swisher 1:17:23 Thank you, Alex. We reached out to Elon Musk for comment. He did not respond. Today's show is produced by Vicky Vergolina, Michelle Aloi, Katherine Milsop, Madeline LaPlante-Dubé, and Megan Bernie. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Annika Robbins, Jim Mackle, and Manolo Moreno. Our engineers are Fernando Arruda and Rick Quan, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you're living in reality, not a simulation. If not, we're sending you to Mars. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from Podium Media, New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more. [upbeat music]