Everything you’ve been wondering about data centers, explained

Elena Schlossberg 0:00 Somebody drops you off at a parking, at a, at a car, CarMax, and they say-

Kara Swisher 0:04 Mm-hmm

Elena Schlossberg 0:04 ...,"The world is your oyster. Pick whatever you want," you're probably gonna pick the Ferrari. But if they say-

Kara Swisher 0:08 Mm-hmm

Elena Schlossberg 0:08 ...,"Hey, you have to cover the cost to your own car," you might pick the Ford Fiesta. And right now-

Kara Swisher 0:13 Mm-hmm

Elena Schlossberg 0:13 ... they're picking the Lamborghini off our dime, and it's time they-

Kara Swisher 0:16 Mm

Elena Schlossberg 0:16 ... pick the Ford Fiesta.

Speaker 0:18 It is on.

Kara Swisher 0:19 [upbeat music] Hi, everyone. Today, we're talking about one of the most hot-button topics in tech today, data centers. That's right, data centers. Tech companies are spending a fortune building the infrastructure to power AI, but communities across America are pushing back. A recent Gallup poll found that seven in 10 Americans don't want a data center in their own community, making this one of the rare issues that cuts across the political divide. I'm joined by a panel of experts who are right in the middle of this debate. We'll unpack why data centers have become so controversial, what the real environmental impact is, how politics is shaping the fight, and whether it's actually possible to build them responsibly. If you wanna understand one of the biggest battles shaping the future of AI, you're in the right place. This is a long podcast. You should listen to every bit of it. Let's get into it. Erin, Logan, Elena, and Andy, thanks for coming on "On".

Speaker 1:16 Thank you for having-

Kara Swisher 1:16 Good to be here

Speaker 1:17 ... me.

Speaker 1:17 Thanks for having us.

Speaker 1:18 On.

Kara Swisher 1:18 [laughs]

Speaker 1:19 On.

Speaker 1:19 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 1:20 On, on, that's how we do it. Um, there's a lot to get into, but I wanna start with a very short answer from each of you. Um, what was the moment when you knew data centers were becoming a national issue with political consequences and also a local issue? Erin, you go first, then Logan, Elena, and Andy.

Speaker 1:38 So it, it began with me, uh, on a particular morning maybe 15, 16 weeks ago, where I woke up and I had 30 emails, individual emails, [clears throat] from the same community out of Pennsylvania talking about data centers. So many times 30 people from the same community reach out to me, I typically am like, "Uh, what's going on?" And it was data centers. And to be honest with you, I'm like, I didn't know a whole lot about the data centers. I knew some, so I decided to look into it. Being the, the person that I am, I have to see the big picture. So I thought, "Gosh, is this just one backyard and one city and one state?" So I created the map, the brockovich, uh, datacenter.com. And the first day when it crashed twice because of submissions, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, what's going on out there?" And it didn't take but 72 hours for the map to populate very quickly-

Kara Swisher 2:33 Mm-hmm

Speaker 2:33 ... with multiple reports coming in from every single state.

Kara Swisher 2:37 Single state.

Speaker 2:38 That blew me away. And that's when I'm like, "Oh my God, what did I just step into?" [laughs]

Kara Swisher 2:42 Right. And you hadn't been paying attention to Elon or the rest of what was happening in Tennessee or anything like that before that?

Speaker 2:48 Yes, I had been watching that a little bit from completely a different perspective of it's a community-

Kara Swisher 2:54 Mm-hmm

Speaker 2:55 ... and obviously the environmental contamination going on.

Kara Swisher 2:58 Mm-hmm. All right, Logan?

Speaker 3:00 Yeah, for me it was, um... You know, I'm, I work at Utah Clean Energy, and I follow the, the energy sector and what's going on with how, uh, new resources are being built out. So I've been following the, the buildup of data centers for several years now. But things really changed in a fundamental way for me here in Utah with the, with the announcement and kind of the, the pub- the public explosion of interest in the Stratos Data Center that was proposed kind of on the shores of the Great Salt Lake. That really, uh, it just kind of upended everything, and all of the, all of the, um, discussion about it, it just, it turned into this wild, um, um, experience. And so, um, the governor was involved, and I, uh, it's kind of... One of the things that really struck me was there was a, there was a quote from one of the people there that said, you know, "There's, there's a lot of top-down, follow-leader culture here in Utah-

Kara Swisher 3:57 Mm-hmm

Speaker 3:57 ... but something fundamental has changed. It's torches and pitchforks out here."

Kara Swisher 4:01 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4:02 So that kind of quote-

Kara Swisher 4:03 Struck you

Speaker 4:03 ... that kind of sentiment really struck me, and I was like, "Wow." And, and now there's been some real political consequences from-

Kara Swisher 4:10 Mm-hmm

Speaker 4:10 ... from that.

Kara Swisher 4:11 Yeah.

Speaker 4:11 And I think we're still at the, at the very beginning of, of that story.

Kara Swisher 4:16 Of what's coming. Great. Elena?

Elena Schlossberg 4:18 So I'm a native Virginian, and, uh, we, uh, bought our, um, dream 10 acres here in the Rural Crescent, and we built our dream home. We couldn't afford to pay anybody to do it. We did it ourselves, and I became very engaged in the Rural Crescent and land use. So I, um, am by nature now a grassroots organizer. In 2014, for the first time, a transmission line project was gonna cross my property. And when I realized it was for a secretive Amazon data center campus that had our local leaders signing NDAs and our economic development department, I was like, "Oh no, oh no, you are not." And so, um, at my kitchen table where I'm sitting now, I formed the Coalition to Protect Prince William County. And in 2021, when the Digital Gateway, the largest project in the world, was proposed next to the Manassas National Battle Park on hallowed ground and the headwaters of a regional drinking water supply, we knew something catastrophically was going to happen. We could tell that our democratically elected board was ignoring us. And, um, what I said in a Zoom meeting like this to a data center organization was, "If QTS," that, uh, had just been purchased by Blackstone, "and Compass persisted-

Kara Swisher 5:36 Mm-hmm

Elena Schlossberg 5:37 ... the backlash would not just be against them, that it would be against the entire industry." And so here we are.

Kara Swisher 5:45 Here we are. Here we are. Okay. Uh, Andy, now you are a public official, so...

Speaker 5:50 I am. Uh, I am. You know, it's a, it's a conversation that, that, um, is newer for, for us. Um, we certainly have had, you know, small data centers, uh, as redundancies, and we have insurance companies. We have our state government. They have big computer

Andy Schor 6:07 rooms that were redundancies, always called data centers. It was never really a big deal. It was just a redundancy. Um, and, uh, you know, we have a, a proposal that-- We had a proposal that came here, which I'm happy to talk about, where we did pretty much everything that I think that, that you all are talking about in terms of make them pay, amongst many other things. Um, and when it came out, it was, you know, there were, there were some people who, who were-- who wanted more details. But then about, uh, an hour and a quarter down the road from us, a hyperscale was proposed in Saline Township, and that was when-- You ask, when did we know? That's when I knew. Um, that's when, whoever said it, the, the torches and pitchforks came out, um, and it was, you know, no hyperscale, and then that brought into, into Lansing, no small scale, no nothing. Um, so-

Kara Swisher 6:53 So it had reverberations for things that were perfectly fine and done in the correct way, correct?

Andy Schor 6:57 Well, we-- And we think so. I mean, I think so, but certainly others would disagree-

Kara Swisher 7:00 Mm-hmm

Andy Schor 7:00 ... and, and I don't wanna speak for others, but we think that we had done everything that-- I mean, we were-- They were paying for, for, uh, community benefits for what we call Pennies for Power. They were paying for all the infrastructure.

Kara Swisher 7:11 Mm-hmm.

Andy Schor 7:11 They were building infrastructure, giving it to us. We said, you know, on

Andy Schor 7:15 day one, we said, "You will never get a tax incentive from us."

Kara Swisher 7:18 Mm-hmm.

Andy Schor 7:18 And it was all-

Kara Swisher 7:19 Right

Andy Schor 7:19 ... this was not AI. This was cloud, cloud-based. But again-

Kara Swisher 7:22 Mm-hmm

Andy Schor 7:22 ... like what you said, this is, this is pitchforks and torches, and, and people came here and said-

Kara Swisher 7:26 It hit your doorway

Andy Schor 7:26 ... "We don't want it here either. Even if it's a, a smaller scale one, we don't want it here either."

Kara Swisher 7:30 And it's, and it's done that we pay for it. So the, the anger had shifted. I wanna get into the disclosures of public officials that, um, Elena was just talking about in a second. But, um, let's level set. Hyperscale da-data centers, facilities that house computing infrastructure for companies like Google and Microsoft, it existed, as you noticed, for twenty years, but the AI boom has led to accelerated investments and a new wave of data centers that are much larger. Um, Logan, give us some context. How are AI data centers different in terms of size and resources they require and their environmental impact?

Speaker 8:02 I mean, what, what we're seeing now is a, is a really fundamental difference in scale, and the-

Kara Swisher 8:06 Mm

Speaker 8:06 ... the technology has changed and shifted. And so we've had data centers for a long time, cloud computing and, and whatnot. Um, and but the amount of compute that you need to train these AI models is at a different magnitude. But really, you know, the, there's a fundamental difference in scale. And so there's two kinds of data centers. Typically, there's big training data centers, and these have massive loads. They're incorporating all this information, huge, huge compute needs, but they don't necessarily need to be-- have immense redundancy because they're training and they're learning. And then there's inference data centers where you need to have, you know, you tap in a chat on your phone or computer, and it needs to respond really quickly, and those need to be really responsive. They typically need to be closer to population centers, wherever you're doing the queries from. And so there's two different kinds, and, and, and it used to be that data centers were pretty small on the order of, like, ten to maybe fifty megawatts and, um, of, of power consumption. And, and now we're starting to see hundreds of megawatts, even gigawatts of data

Speaker 9:15 centers being proposed. It's just a completely different order of magnitude at the size of these compute facilities and the energy consumption.

Kara Swisher 9:23 Yeah, and, and the larger footprint, correct. The larger-

Speaker 9:25 Yeah. Yeah, yeah

Kara Swisher 9:26 ... footprint itself. So Erin, this year, as you noted, you launched a crowdsourced map-tracking data center buildout across the US. A common complaint you're hearing from what I understand is lack of transparency around the projects, and a recent New York Times investigation found that secret meetings and deals were essential to Meta's giant fifty billion dollars Hyperion data center in Louisiana, which I think the first-- that was the first that got a lot of attention. Talk about what's driving the secrecy around data center projects and how tech companies, developers, and local officials are able to keep these projects under wraps for so long.

Speaker 9:57 It-- That, you know, that's an excellent question that-

Kara Swisher 9:59 [chuckles]

Speaker 10:00 ... that everybody's asking. You know-

Kara Swisher 10:02 Mm-hmm

Speaker 10:02 ... there has not been, and I've taken in sixteen thousand submissions, each one of them, uh, states, and these are multiple counties and cities in every single state, that it was done under a shell corporation. It was done in total secrecy. They feel absolutely blindsided. They had no idea anything was coming at all, and this is across the board. And you know, I tend to follow the hard evidence from the people and on the ground and the data that they're reporting to me and the probability, because that usually never lies. And so I was astonished at the NDAs, and I've watched kind of an arc as this moves, and we get deeper and deeper into this. The, the water and the electricity was always there, but the NDAs is they don't understand why. They don't know how this happened. When the public opposition showed up, and Logan was talking about that, and that was one of the first real significant public oppositions that we saw out in Utah, and then it, the ground swelled. Everybody was showing up. Um, we didn't have a seat at the table. How did it happen?

Kara Swisher 11:19 Wh- why the NDAs, from your perspective? Why this-- Is it security? Is it that they don't competition? What is the excuse they give for especially the public officials?

Speaker 11:30 I think public opposition. I think that they just came in in the dark of the night, like the people say, and created these organizations, because if this had been transparent and upfront, you would have had the public opposition upfront. But because you just kind of slid in, I think that was one way. Uh, it is like a gold rush, and I don't know-

Kara Swisher 11:53 Mm-hmm

Speaker 11:53 ... what their limited timeframe is, but they-

Kara Swisher 11:56 Mm-hmm

Speaker 11:56 ... had to do it that way to either protect themselves, get something through, which they knew they would not get through if the public knew.

Kara Swisher 12:05 Elena, you're in Virginia, which has the most data centers in the world. I don't know if people know that, but you mentioned this earlier, but last month, a court ruling stopped this massive digital gateway from moving ahead in Prince William County, where you live. Considering Virginia's already the home to all these hundreds of data centers, w- g- go dig down more in this project and, and your strategy for pushing back because y- it has welcomed data centers. The state has been, you know, it's been a big part of development there.

Elena Schlossberg 12:32 Well, sure. I mean, we have this great, you know, incentive. The data centers don't have to pay, um, state tax, so the rest of us are paying the tax subsidy for them. So, um, the digital gateway was the first project, uh, after the Amazon, um, uh, campus was exposed, and we fought Dominion Energy, and we had our elected leaders actually start saying... They couldn't even say the word Amazon. That's how specific the NDA was. They couldn't even say the word Amazon. So, um, so the digital gateway, uh, was the first time we saw data centers move outside of the overlay that we had created, modeled after Loudoun County. And what was shocking was that there was no concern about the amount of water. There was no disclosure. So while there is a lot of discussion about, um, how much water, I don't know how we can discuss it. They're not required to disclose it. So how do we know how much water they're using? It's not just quantity. It's also quality. So when you build this kind of impervious surfaces, Logan, you'll understand this, in a drinking water supply watershed, what you do is you limit the amount of groundwater recharge, and then you have the surface water runoff. And then you have the most important national park in the entire country.

Kara Swisher 13:51 Mm-hmm. Right.

Elena Schlossberg 13:52 And what is shocking is that there's also no disclosure about power. The part of the conversation that's being missed about what our biggest concern is, is the risk to the grid. Just last week, we had an event where three gigawatts of power jumped off the grid because a data center, I don't know how many, removed themselves. So imagine you're on a seesaw, and one of you jumps off. Well, what happens to the other one? The reality is that this industry, the national risk, is really what is happening to our grid. And that event on July 22nd almost brought down an entire grid from Virginia to Chicago. What is happening is not just about in my backyard. What is happening is a risk to every single ratepayer and every single person that relies on, uh, affordable, reliable energy. And so the digital gateway is a microcosm of what is now happening across this entire country. And all the coalition works to do is expose and demand transparency, oversight, and accountability. And without that, without that basic process implemented everywhere on a statewide and national level, every American is at risk. And it's not just about my backyard and my investment. It's about this country.

Kara Swisher 15:13 Right. And, and your strategy is to get that idea out, that it's, it's not just, ugh, it's that you have this nice farm in Virginia, and, and you wanna make sure your refrigerator doesn't go down. So Andy, um, you know, as mayor, you supported the construction of a data center in downtown Lansing, Michigan. It was proposed by Deep Green, a UK-based company. The data center would have been for cloud storage, not AI, but the project, as you said, faced public opposition and is not moving forward. Talk about what you learned from the experience, and you were trying to do it in what could be considered the right way and still ran into stumbling blocks because I, in a lot of ways, uh, which I have said this on my podcast many times, the d- data centers are a proxy for anger over not just the abuse of power, the abuse of billionaires or getting what they want. It has to do with corruption that people feel and the worries about AI at the same time. So it's sort of become the vessel a- because it's a, it's a physical manifestation of those things. So talk about why, if you do it, and, and the negative is some of them are good to do, right? Like, assuming for economic development for your, for your area in Lansing.

Andy Schor 16:18 Right. And I, to address

Andy Schor 16:20 kinda some of the things that have been come up, that have come up, um, you know, yes, there are concerns about water. We had those concerns in the beginning, and we, we told them closed loop. This is gonna be closed loop.

Kara Swisher 16:28 Mm-hmm.

Andy Schor 16:28 So they were using about the same amount of water as the Wendy's across the street was gonna use. That was important to us.

Kara Swisher 16:34 Mm-hmm.

Andy Schor 16:34 We didn't want them sucking out of the Grand River, um, which is, again, we didn't want them taking the water. Um-

Kara Swisher 16:40 Explain what a closed loop is very briefly

Andy Schor 16:42 ... uh, it's a, it's a closed-loop system where they use, in essence, the, the, the same, um, chemical. It's called glycol, um, and they use that to power all of it. Uh, it's a sealed closed loop. Glycol is the same chemical we use at our stadium for the beer distribution. Um, so it's a, according to our folks, that this is, it's, this is a fairly easy, uh, chemical to use. Um, but again, the, the water that was projected was, was less than our auto plants, was less than our battery plant, way less, um, was less, was about the same as the, the, the fast food. So again, we wanted to make sure we were not taking water out of our, um, out of our aquifer. Um, our power, uh, we put it at the, at the northern edge of our down-- or the proposal was at the northern edge of our downtown in empty parking lots right across the street from our, uh, water treatment facility right by our highway. Um, they had committed to, um, to our noise ordinance. They were basically urban infilling. They were gonna do art and murals and things like that. It was small. It was a 24 megawatt, um, so it was small. Um, it was within the, whoever said, you know, the 10 to 50. Um, uh, so there was a lot of that. You know, we, we talked a lot of, uh... I didn't, I didn't sign an NDA. I wasn't asked to sign an NDA. The only reason I can think of that someone would want an NDA is if there's some kind of proprietary technology. But I, I did not get asked, nor did I sign one. Um, now we do, when we do economic development, you know, we work with businesses all the time. I work with, with developers. I work with businesses. They come in with pretty crazy asks sometimes, and we narrow them down to what we think is right, and then we announce it to the public. We bring it to our economic development boards. We bring it to council, and it gets full public vetting before it goes anywhere, and that's what happened here.

Kara Swisher 18:29 Mm-hmm.

Andy Schor 18:29 We worked with them. They wanted to be in our hard downtown, and we said no, um, more because it was, uh, um Would become a dead spot. It's not an active retail-

Elena Schlossberg 18:38 Mm-hmm

Andy Schor 18:38 ... so it'd become a dead spot.

Elena Schlossberg 18:39 Correct.

Andy Schor 18:39 So we told them, "Go to our northern edge. Go into this empty parking lot."

Elena Schlossberg 18:43 Right. Right.

Andy Schor 18:43 So yeah, we, we put a lot of requirements on them. Um, but the-

Elena Schlossberg 18:46 Mm-hmm

Andy Schor 18:46 ... the question that you asked originally, um, and I am, I believe this to my core, is that, you know, this was rejected here in Lansing, which is okay. That's, that is exactly the, the-

Elena Schlossberg 18:55 Hmm

Andy Schor 18:55 ... political process. We think they're gonna go to Indiana or Illinois, who is gonna have none of those requirements, who are just gonna-

Elena Schlossberg 19:02 None of those requirements, right

Andy Schor 19:02 ... take them in. So we, we think it's gonna be-

Elena Schlossberg 19:04 Yeah, that's what they do

Andy Schor 19:04 ... a negative, uh, a negative-

Elena Schlossberg 19:06 Right

Andy Schor 19:06 ... to the environment because we were gonna put all these requirements on, and others won't.

Elena Schlossberg 19:10 Right.

Andy Schor 19:10 So that's, that's my, one of my-

Elena Schlossberg 19:11 Right

Andy Schor 19:11 ... bigger concerns.

Elena Schlossberg 19:13 I just wanna add something about, it's really important about the closed loop, 'cause I, I, I think that it's actually, uh, it is a problem. And the closed loop, it is not just you use it one and done. It has to be flushed, and when it is flushed, what happens is those chemicals, those bl- biocides that are used to clean all the, the chips come through that. And if we haven't m- read about what's happening in Wyoming, a meta campus is responsible. They traced it back, Erin, you, I mean you obviously know, they traced it back to the meta campus, so the closed loop is not the panacea that h- it has been, been told. And, and my question is, for the campus in Lansing, um, what is the backup generation, um, for those, every data center campus needs backup generation. What is that, Mayor?

Andy Schor 20:03 Yeah. Our, again, our generation was going to be, um, they were gonna generate what they could from the fuel cell, and we had-

Elena Schlossberg 20:10 Mm-hmm

Andy Schor 20:10 ... eight megawatts reserved for them. We have, we have excess power, um, because we have a municipal utility, and we con- you know, this, this city works, controls the municipal utility. It's not consumers. It's not DTE. Um, so our-

Elena Schlossberg 20:23 Mm-hmm

Andy Schor 20:23 ... our utility had reserved, um, in essence, power for the max generation. We didn't think they were actually gonna do 24 megawatts at, at, you know, naturally. We thought they would do, again, 16, 18, but at a high peak, um, we had the, the power ready for them from the grid, which was available. Again, we weren't gonna, you know, w- i- if someone came to me and said, "I need-"

Elena Schlossberg 20:44 They don't have backup diesel generators.

Andy Schor 20:46 No.

Elena Schlossberg 20:46 That's what I meant.

Andy Schor 20:47 No.

Elena Schlossberg 20:47 They don't have backup diesel generators.

Andy Schor 20:48 No.

Elena Schlossberg 20:48 Okay.

Andy Schor 20:49 No, not at all. Nope. This was-

Elena Schlossberg 20:50 Yeah

Andy Schor 20:50 ... this was straight-

Elena Schlossberg 20:51 Yeah

Andy Schor 20:51 ... fuel cell non-combustion. We would not allow that. I didn't know where you were going with that, so sorry. I, we have not, it didn't, it never even came up. Diesel generation never even came up.

Elena Schlossberg 20:59 Right. Go ahead, Erin.

Speaker 21:01 So on the closed loop, I'm really glad we're having this conversation, and, uh, Elena, exactly what you pointed out happened in Cheyenne is, is one issue with closed loop. But there's another, um, and Logan might really wanna jump in on here, because the closed loop system is kind of a paradox to the engineers. I call it kind of an illusion, because if they don't have the open evaporation systems, which is where they're using more direct water, we go to the closed loop system, which actually is gonna end up consuming more water off-site because you need the electricity for all these closed loop systems, and now you've created a bigger problem. So there's two issues with the closed loop, but it's presented to people as, "Oh, it's closed loop. You're gonna be using less water." In actuality, you're gonna be using more water off-site. You're gonna need the Duke Energies of the world. You're gonna need the PG&Es of the world, the utilities, the nuclear, the coal, to provide all the electricity for these closed loop systems.

Speaker 22:08 One of the biggest misconceptions that, that I found as the Stratos Data Center conversation was, was starting to ramp up, and reporters were getting really interested in trying to understand the issue, is there's actually two water stories. One is the water of the consumption of the data center itself, but then the other one is the water consumption of your energy generation. And usually folks, the data center developers will just talk about the, the water consumption of the data center itself, and they'll say, "Oh, it's closed loop. We're not using very much."

Elena Schlossberg 22:37 Right. I was just about to shift to water. Um, data centers require vast amounts of water for what's known as, it's called evaporative cooling. The, um, 20, a 2024 report found that most existing data centers use this method. Uh, Logan, you estimated that Kevin O'Leary's proposed Stratos project in Utah would use 16.6 billion gallons of water a year to operate the gas turbines. Uh, O'Leary recently said that he is prepared to significantly reduce the size of the proposed 40,000-acre project. Uh, t- break down this water use for people to understand, and how does Stratos compare to other water-intensive projects? And we know golf courses use too much water. We're aware of that, um, in places like Utah where water, water is already scarce. So Logan, if you could go through that, and especially related to Kevin. And full disclosure, I call Kevin O'Leary a moron almost on the daily.

Speaker 23:23 [laughs]

Elena Schlossberg 23:23 So just full disclosure. Um, I think he's the greatest face you could have for this because that means none-

Speaker 23:29 Right

Elena Schlossberg 23:29 ... are ever gonna get built.

Speaker 23:30 Yeah.

Elena Schlossberg 23:30 Um-

Speaker 23:30 Yeah

Elena Schlossberg 23:30 ... but you don't have to say that. I can say that. Um, Logan, can you explain that, like how, how big this is, and break down the water use?

Speaker 23:38 Yeah. So again, the, the proposal, the proposal that they, the Stratos, uh, data center proposal here in Utah, it, it has many of the similar elements. It, you know, it was under the cover of night. We had this extra dynamic where we had this special quasi-governmental organization that was signing, signing off on it. Um, but the, when, when it came up and when it started to hit the, the public awareness, I started looking around for, oh, what is their plan? What are, what are they actually planning to do? And there, there was no details. It was, the, the level of detail was, "We're gonna build 100% natural gas, nine-gigawatt data center," which is insanity, um, because I mean, the entire state of Utah uses about four gigawatts total at our peak. So it's more than double what the entire state of Utah uses. So I just said, "Okay, well, if there's no details, I- You know, the people are screaming for details. They wanna know, like, what does this actually mean? And so I said, "Okay, what are the two most common types of natural gas, um, power production?" And there's two different dominant technologies. There's more out there. There's boutique technologies that are getting deployed at small scale. Um, but they're, you know, if you're looking at building a non-gigawatt data center, you're gonna use, like, whatever the dominant technologies are. So the first option is combined cycle turbines. Those are the most common kind of utility scale power generation, um, and they use evaporative cooling for the power generation. Um, and that's, again, this is in addition to the data center itself, and that's what would take, if you were to build non-gigawatts with, um, combined cycle turbines, that's where it would take 16 billion gallons of water. Um, the problem with that is, I mean, there's, there's lots of problems with that. Um, there's lots of trade-offs depending on what technology you use, but those turbines are, there's such a rush to gas right now that those turbines are back ordered five to seven years, so they're not available right now. And so what's happening is all these data centers are pivoting to this other technologies, this other technology called reciprocating engines, and they basically look like a diesel locomotive powered by natural gas. Um, I mean, some of them are d- some of them are, some of them actually are diesel, the backup generators are diesel-

Kara Swisher 25:57 Right

Speaker 25:57 ... but they also make natural gas versions of these.

Kara Swisher 25:59 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 26:00 Um, they consume less water. Um, it's still a non-gigawatt, uh, facility would take 2 billion gallons of water per year.

Kara Swisher 26:08 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 26:09 Um, but they emit tons, they're way less efficient, um, in terms of the combustion, so they emit tons of nitrogen oxide pollution-

Kara Swisher 26:16 Right

Speaker 26:16 ... that contributes to ozone and to go better-

Kara Swisher 26:18 This is what's happening down in Tennessee, right?

Speaker 26:19 Exactly. And so there are real trade-offs there. Um, and, and this is just the water consumption from the power generation. This is in addition to, you know, whatever water consumption there would be from the actual data center campus. Um, and I think one of the really big flashpoints in Utah is they planned, the, the location where they were planning to put this is right on the north shore of the Great Salt Lake. And if you know anything about Utah, you know that the Great Salt Lake is having troubles. Um, we're using too much water, and there's a major effort, um, across the state. There's tons of awareness on reducing water consumption. Everybody, farmers, uh, the cities, everyone's being asked to conserve water. You know, don't water your lawn. We're in a drought. We had the worst winter snowpack, um, as a function of climate change and natural weather variability. Um, and so everyone's being asked to cons- conserve water, especially in the Great Salt Lake, uh, watershed. And then, you know, there's this, this data center's getting this kinda like free pass with these backdoor deals.

Kara Swisher 27:24 Right.

Speaker 27:24 Gonna consume a massive amount of water.

Kara Swisher 27:25 Not water.

Speaker 27:25 And so that just really, really aggravated-

Kara Swisher 27:28 Furuated people. Yeah, 'cause you can't mow your lawn, but Kevin O'Leary gets a bottle of water.

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28:52 So, uh, Erin, you've reported, uh, increased turbidity and cloudiness in the water where data centers are being built in addition to loss of water pressure also on top of that. Um, what is the sense of what's causing it and whether these effects are limited to the construction phase?

Speaker 29:08 Well, that's a great question. So, you know, I've been watching the arc from proposal stage, which we've talked about, and the main thing-

Kara Swisher 29:15 Mm-hmm

Speaker 29:15 ... is the complete lack of transparency. And then all of a sudden, construction starts, and it's during that construction phase that you start hearing from people, um, whether it's I've got a trickle of water, whether I've had to redrill a well because my well water went too low, too turbidity. So depending on, like, if you have shallow water, you're gonna get a lot of turbidity and discoloration. And so we're now, during this construction phase, we're getting into the noise, the disruption, the water issues, the lack of water, consistent water, dirty water, water you can't drink, into electrical. They're getting power outages. It flickers on, it flickers off, to the huge, huge disruption. And to watch it, it's, it's almost, like, really violent. They're just destroying the trees, the habitat-

Kara Swisher 30:15 Right

Speaker 30:15 ... and then all the way to up and running.

Kara Swisher 30:19 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 30:19 And when they're up and running, this is where we hear so much about this 24/7 noise. So it's kind of an arc, and so during the construction

Speaker 30:30 phase, um, that's where you're starting to get so many reports of different water issues.

Kara Swisher 30:36 So, um, data centers require continuous power to operate. Virginia recently passed an energy consumption tax on data center operators. They'll pay 11 cents per kilowatt hour of electricity used, and the tax is capped at $600 million a year. Not sure why it's capped. Uh, Elena, how much of an impact do you think the tax will have on electricity costs in Virginia? And Andy, would something similar be effective in Michigan? Elena, you go first.

Speaker 31:00 So the, the tax really won't have much of an impact. What would've had an impact is had they removed the

Elena Schlossberg 31:06 Um, incentive. What will have an impact is a rate K or pace right, right now before the SEC based on the Haymarket transmission line. I just wanna... Uh, I appreciate this conversation, but I really-

Kara Swisher 31:18 Mm-hmm

Elena Schlossberg 31:18 ... I just wanna interject one thing if you don't, if you don't mind.

Kara Swisher 31:21 Sure, please.

Elena Schlossberg 31:22 So here's, here's what people should be paying attention to. Virginia is your future. Why are we still fighting for Virginia? 'Cause there's still plenty left to save. What is happening in Virginia is literally the canary in the coal mine. We are running a 21st century industry off coal that's coming from transmission lines all the way from West Virginia, and on days where the, uh, there's too much stress on the grid, they are running on diesel generators. And it's not about NIMBY. It's about a very basic principle of, of a democratic process that has left us out. And instead of ensuring that we have clean air and clean water, we wanna make sure that this industry can function no matter what the cost.

Kara Swisher 32:04 Right. So even, even, and your point being that even if you pay... co- they paid more, we shouldn't let them even pay more 'cause it's not worth the cost, correct? The taxes.

Elena Schlossberg 32:14 Here was the perspective of the coalition of why making them pay this particular cost allocation-

Kara Swisher 32:19 Mm-hmm

Elena Schlossberg 32:19 ... was critical in 2016. If they have to pay for their own stuff, you better believe they'll innovate. 'Cause I give this example all the time.

Kara Swisher 32:27 Mm-hmm.

Elena Schlossberg 32:27 Somebody drops you off at a parking, at a, at a car, CarMax, and they say-

Kara Swisher 32:32 Mm-hmm

Elena Schlossberg 32:32 ... "The world is your oyster. Pick whatever you want," you're probably gonna pick the Ferrari. But if they say-

Kara Swisher 32:36 Mm-hmm

Elena Schlossberg 32:37 ... "Hey, you have to cover the cost of your own car," you might pick the Ford Fiesta. And right now they're picking the Lamborghini off our dime, and it's time they pick the Ford Fiesta.

Kara Swisher 32:45 Yeah, you're making an excellent point. So you don't even think that more taxes is what's needed. Andy, can you respond to this? 'Cause, uh, do you think that putting, ha- having these, um, these extra taxes, uh, on energy consumption tax, she's not... You're saying, Elena, it's not good enough. Um, Andy, how do you respond to that?

Andy Schor 33:04 I, I mean, I think one of the biggest concerns that I hear is, you know, "I don't want my rates to go up-

Kara Swisher 33:09 Mm-hmm

Andy Schor 33:09 ... for a business that is gonna be making a lot of money." Um, and again, we, we said that's not gonna happen here, but certainly if, if, if they're going somewhere and there is a, a federal tax and it's, you know, throughout the country, 'cause right now we're getting picked apart state by state, um, and that can reimburse consumers or, or pay consumer bills, um, I, I do think that would help to alleviate at least some of the concerns. Now, there are other concerns. You've heard them here, and, and I get that. Um, I think there are concerns that could be shared about a lot of different industries that put, you know, pollution into the air and into the water, um, and focusing just on data centers ignores, uh, a bigger part of, of what's going on. But, um, I, I think that ensuring that, that, um, that people are not being required to pay more for an industry that can certainly pay their own... Again, when they came to us and said, you know, "We wanna talk about incentives," we said, "Not a chance. You guys are cash rich. Um, there is not a chance you're getting an incentive, and you're gonna pay to make sure that our, um, poorest folks are getting, uh, energy help," which was our Pennies for Power project.

Kara Swisher 34:17 Let me, uh, bring Logan in. A recent Goldman Sachs commodities research report found that the US data center power demand is forecast more than double the 66 gigawatts in 2027 from 31 in 2025. Um, put that energy use into perspective, Logan, and, and the stress, um, it increases on the grid, and, uh, aside from all these other, uh, deleterious effects. And in order to meet energy demand, some companies have built on-site power sources that are separate from public utilities. Um, uh, Logan, you, for the Stratos project in Utah, you calculated that a nine-gigawatt natural gas power plant would produce around 35 million metric tons of carbon emissions a year. And I'd love to u- understand the first question, and then how significant is that to Utah's air quality and emissions as a whole?

Speaker 35:05 Yeah, I mean, the, the, this is an enormous increase in electricity production if, if it comes to pass. And, um,

Speaker 35:15 there's... I, I, I think there's also a good possibility that this is, uh, a, we're in a hype cycle, and the AI data center bubble will burst. As, you know, as soon as you put, uh, a dollar amount on, on compute efficiency, all of a sudden, you know, some clever engineer figures out to, how to do something more efficient. Now you, you actually... It's actually funny. I've seen a number of articles back from the year 2000 when the internet was first blowing up, and we thought, "Oh, we'd have all these, you know, internet servers everywhere that are gonna su- consume all this power." And then what happened? Energy efficiency was this, you know, a massive push, and we've actually been able to keep, um, energy load growth, um, through more efficient lighting, et cetera, you know, largely flat in this country for a long time, even as we've been growing. And so it points to-

Kara Swisher 36:07 We did get all that bad social media stuff that made our girls feel bad-

Speaker 36:10 Right. [laughs]

Kara Swisher 36:10 ... and our boys addicted to porn, but go ahead. Go ahead.

Speaker 36:13 Yes, yes.

Kara Swisher 36:13 That's another, that's another show.

Speaker 36:15 There, there, there's that too. That's, that's a separate problem. [laughs] Um, that, that's, that, that's more of, like, should we be doing it in the first place? Um, and but anyways, so but if this load growth does come to pass, um, that is an massive build-out cycle for our energy system. Now, one piece of the conversation is our energy system needs to be upgraded. There are so many things that need investment, and so there's a possibility, if this is done the right way, with transparency, with public input, um, that, you know, these cash-rich, uh, entities could make investments, and I'm talking about advanced transmission technologies, like reusing the current right of way to put advanced conductors that can put more energy through the lines.

Kara Swisher 37:06 Right. But what is... If they go through with this one, the quality there and the emissions are

37:11 Staggering for Utah, correct

Speaker 37:12 Enormous, yeah. Yeah, and, and to, to put it in perspective, um, you know, the entire state of Utah has, like, 65 million metric tons. This would be like a 50%. This one facility would increase Utah's total greenhouse gas emission, total CO2 emissions by, like, 50%.

Kara Swisher 37:28 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 37:29 Now, the other thing that isn't accounted in that is upstream natural gas leakage. Natural gas is, is not really natural. It's actually methane gas. Methane, natural gas is about 95% methane, and methane's a really potent greenhouse gas. It's about 80 times more potent than CO2 on a 20-year lifespan, which is what we all care about. Um, and, and it turns out that there is an enormous amount of methane leakage in upstream oil and gas production facilities in Utah and Wyoming. It's something like 5% of the gas that comes out of the ground, it's pulled out of the ground, just leaks into the air.

Kara Swisher 38:08 Erin, what were you gonna say?

Speaker 38:09 Well, you know, Logan is talking about the huge load on one system, and if we're gonna build out 1,200 to 1,400 or more of these across America, you're talking about a load that I do not believe our antiquated infrastructure can handle.

Elena Schlossberg 38:30 So I participate in what are called these terrible, they're called FLEE, Prince William Energy Engagement Group. They cannot reconductor. They were supposed to reconductor the massive transmission line that goes to the Manassas National Battlefield, and within one year, they said, "We cannot afford to have any planned outages on this line 'cause it will bring down the system." Your transmission line infrastructure is like your highway, and right now, that highway is clogged, and what we are building is out an entire infrastructure for one industry. What happens when that industry innovates, and we have built out trillions of dollars worth of infrastructure that they don't need anymore?

Kara Swisher 39:07 That's a very important point.

Elena Schlossberg 39:07 Who-

Kara Swisher 39:08 Right

Elena Schlossberg 39:08 ... is the one responsible for that? We have to pause, and we have to have a plan, and I'm just gonna tell you, if you wanna see your future, look at Virginia. They're not doing it any different 'cause if they could, they would.

Kara Swisher 39:20 [gentle music] Support for the show comes from Rippling. Imagine you just found out your sales team is at risk for missing quota. No need to panic. Just ask Rippling AI. Since it's built on your real-time people and business data, Rippling AI can pull metrics from Rippling and Salesforce into a meeting-ready dashboard showing quota attainment, head count trajectory, and monthly revenue to quota by region. In seconds, you can see exactly what's behind your quota risk and fix it before it's missed. Question answered, action taken, crisis averted. So when you have critical business questions that need answers, don't just file a ticket and wait weeks for an outdated report. Describe what you need and have Rippling AI build it instantly from your live people and business data, whether it's a dashboard with detailed charts or automated workflows with the right triggers, conditions, and approvals. Ready to rule your business? Head to rippling.ai/kara to get only AI built to give you full visibility and take complex actions across your entire organization. That's R-I-P-P-L-I-N-G.ai/kara, K-A-R-A. Sign up for exclusive access today. Yeah, okay, so on that note, we get an expert q- outside question in every episode. Here is yours.

Speaker 40:36 I'm Beth Macy. I'm a reporter and author who's running for Congress in Virginia's Sixth District. Data centers have become a huge issue in my rural agricultural part of the state. In fact, opposition to them seems to be the only thing that's bringing Republicans and Democrats together lately, so I guess maybe that's a healthy thing for our democracy? Eh. Many people from big tech, the business community, and even some of our local governments say that data centers and AI are inevitable, so don't worry. Everything will be fine, you Luddites.

Speaker 41:05 I disagree. I think we need guardrails about who pays for the utilities, the water usage, and the environmental impact of data centers, not to mention protection from the looming catastrophe that AI promises for our workforce. I think AI's gonna make what NAFTA did to factory workers look like child's play. So I'm asking you guys, what kind of guardrails can we place against data centers and AI? What kind of federal legislation can protect our jobs, our young people, and our land and water from a handful of billionaire kooky man babies who wanna be trillionaires?

Kara Swisher 41:40 Okay. That's good. [laughs] I like Beth. She's... What a great book she wrote. Um, Erin, uh, why don't you go first, and then Logan, Andy, and Elena to answer Beth's question? Um, obviously, it, it, it, it's a, as, as you were pointing out, Elena, it's a bigger issue than just this, but Erin, you start.

Speaker 41:59 Oh yeah. It, it's, it's every issue, and it's everyone's issue that's at stake. It's the water. It's the electrical grid. It's the cost of utilities. It's the noise. It's the air pollution. It's the loss of our land, our sanctuary. Uh, it just feels like a full-on assault, and I think at a local level, you have to have, um, and see, the, at a local level, they're the ones in charge of zoning and permitting, is to have oversight. I know that states, we have 14 states that are now going to start looking at, you know, state legislation and oversight, and yes, federal. This is an absolute runaway train, and it is probably one of the biggest conversations that I've ever seen in my 30 years in my career that is political. It could be bipartisan. Everybody's gonna have to be involved. I am perplexed, Kara, why our leaders don't listen to the people, and there's a movement happening and a shift that I don't think these big tech companies or giants saw coming.

Kara Swisher 43:15 Um, go ahead, uh, Logan.

Speaker 43:17 Um, we need demand, we need data centers to have demand flexibility so they're not adding to our peak load at the most critical times, so they're not putting additional stress on the grid. That's gonna go... That's gonna be really important. They need to pay for their own infrastructure, and they need to pay f- they need to socialize and, like, pay for upgrading the whole grid is really what they should be doing. Um, and that it, we really need it to be, you know, bring your own clean energy and storage. Um, we have... This is an opportunity to actually build out and, and develop some of the emerging technologies. So, and a great example of that that's, I think a, a major opportunity here in, in Utah is, uh, and, and across the West is developing geothermal energy. And so pairing solar with geothermal, um, there's enormous opportunities there, and, and we can have data centers help to, to, you know, drive down the cost so that that's, so that that, uh, energy type can, can displace other kind of firm generation. It can be clean firm generation, which our grid needs. Um, and it has to be transparent reporting and, and public engagement. Um, the Utah Foundation, uh, is, it's, it's one of the, the groups here in Utah. They do an annual survey of voter priorities. In 2024, their number two issue that they ranked was politicians ignoring voters. And, and, and this, you know, this, this perfectly encapsulates, uh, politicians ignoring voters, this issue around data centers. And then the Stratos was just, like, this massive, uh, example of that. And one of the big political fallouts here in Utah, I mean, politicians are not immune, um, our, the, the president of the Utah State Senate, uh-

Kara Swisher 44:58 Mm-hmm

Speaker 44:58 ... lost his primary election. And, and-

Kara Swisher 45:00 Yeah, well, I'll get to that in a second, yeah

Speaker 45:02 ... Yeah. It, it, it's, it's a political earthquake. He's, he's one of the most, uh, influential legislators here in Utah, and-

Kara Swisher 45:08 Mm-hmm

Speaker 45:08 ... and it was, it was not close.

Kara Swisher 45:10 Andy, speak to that. Are you worried about your job if you're not-

Andy Schor 45:15 No. Um-

Kara Swisher 45:15 Yeah, from TC-

Andy Schor 45:16 You know, I, I just, I just won re-election in November-

Kara Swisher 45:19 Mm-hmm

Andy Schor 45:19 ... and I knocked 10,000 doors. First, let me say I, I agree with the guardrails. You know, I, I've actually had conversations with the Climate Mayors and the Sustainable Cities Coalition, and they've asked me, "What are the guardrails you were able to get?" And they, they've got documents that say, "Put these guardrails on." It's everything you've heard. You know, water, electric, making sure they pay for it, maintenance. We haven't even talked about maintenance. Um, maintenance, heat capture, customer benefit, things like that. Um, that is absolutely, that should be on everybody's to-do list. I don't care who you are. Um, but you know, I, I, I knocked 10,000 doors, and you wanna know what, what people want to hear about? In Lansing, Michigan, and in Michigan, taxes are too high, costs are too high, roads stink, uh, and potholes, public safety, and too many guns on the street. I got a few, you know, data center, environmental. I did get a few of those. But when politicians listen to people, they listen to all of the things, all of the things. It's not just one thing. I can't just focus on one thing, and this is part of it. So when we, when we said, you know, the, it... what we're doing with, with, you know, what we're, whether it's, you know, high manufacturing, the new battery plant that just came in, auto manufacturing, the proposed data center, uh, all of these things, we talk about benefit that's gonna help out for taxation so we don't have to raise taxes. We talk about building housing. We're building, you know, new housing units, affordable and reg- and market rate. So I, I mean, I, I disagree. I think politicians, not everybody, right? Not everybody is, is a prince. Um, but I think politicians do listen to constituents, but they have to make decisions. And when you talk about the, uh, the studies, you know, I, I tell everybody this, politicians or public officials or what, a mayor, you have to make decisions. We are decision-makers, and when you decide for somebody, they, they're like, "Of course you did. I'm right." And when you decide against somebody, they say, "You suck, and you're not listening to me." So we really lose no matter what, but that's the job. The job is to listen to people and then make a decision for what you think is best for your community. And you know what? If you tell enough people that they're wrong, they're gonna vote you out of office. Um, so that's, I mean, that's, that's politics.

Kara Swisher 47:23 And they're doing that

Andy Schor 47:23 That's the job. And, and you know what?

Kara Swisher 47:25 Yeah, we'll get to how they do that

Andy Schor 47:25 In some areas they are, and in some areas they are not.

Kara Swisher 47:27 Yeah, right.

Andy Schor 47:28 We can certainly point to a few places where they are, but I can point to a lot of places where they're not.

Kara Swisher 47:33 Right.

Andy Schor 47:33 And that is the same system we have always had.

Kara Swisher 47:35 All right, Elena?

Elena Schlossberg 47:37 So let me just share a little story, uh, very quickly. Uh, when this fight began in 2014, uh, I was on the general assembly floor with the most socially conservative Republican in the entire, you know, in the entire, you know, uh, delegation. And, um, and somebody said, "Oh my God, hell has frozen over. Bob Marshall and Elena Schlossberg are hugging." And let me tell you, as much as this industry is tearing communities apart, it is also bringing people together at a time when things have never been more tribal or toxic between the two parties, and that has been our superpower. And as far as decision-makers, I have had a board of supervisors sit in front of me and say, "I'm the decision-maker." She didn't care about the facts. She didn't care about the science. She didn't care about the risk to the grid. She didn't care about the overall impacts of what was happening. And in my community, you can't get elected unless you are on the right side of this issue because it's not just about NIMBY.

Kara Swisher 48:35 Right. Sorry.

Elena Schlossberg 48:36 I say this all the time. I just wanna leave this one quote before.

Kara Swisher 48:38 Sure.

Elena Schlossberg 48:39 If I am only, if I, if I am not n- for myself, who am I? If I am only for me, who am I? And if not now, then when? This fight is everything. It's about every single conservation easement in the state of Virginia. It's about transmission lines. It's about dirty diesel generators. It's about coal. It's about everything people care about.

Kara Swisher 49:02 Mm-hmm. Uh, uh, which I think is true in some... But I think the mayor has a point. People are also concerned about this and this. Like, the ability to be nuanced has been lost in our society.

Elena Schlossberg 49:10 But when your, when your utility bills are doubling-

Kara Swisher 49:12 Get it

Elena Schlossberg 49:13 ... and you're in one of those communities-

Kara Swisher 49:14 Agreed

Elena Schlossberg 49:14 ... that is a demographic-

Kara Swisher 49:15 I agree

Elena Schlossberg 49:15 ... that can't afford it-

Kara Swisher 49:17 Yes

Elena Schlossberg 49:17 ... you suddenly care-

Kara Swisher 49:18 Yeah

Elena Schlossberg 49:18 ... 'cause you, 'cause now your-

Kara Swisher 49:19 Yes

Elena Schlossberg 49:19 ... your utility bill is as expensive as your rent or your mortgage

Kara Swisher 49:22 Mm-hmm. Right. So in June, Republican primaries in Box Elder County, which I think was what you're referring to, some ProStratus data center candidates lost elections, also shaping out to be a national issue in the midterms. At the same time, opposition is sometimes characterized, as you said, as hyperlocal and NIMBY driven. Um, uh, y- what's interesting to me is the, is the point you made about the tech companies don't know. I've had meetings with all of them, and last year and a half ago, uh, well, I wrote a book called "Burn Book," which was somewhat critical of them, very critical, and they thought it was too mean. And when I went to see them, I said, "I don't think it's mean enough. I think people hate you. Like, I think you're gonna see a hatred growing towards you." And they're like, "They don't hate us." I'm like, "No, they hate you, and you'll see as more and more happens," and lots of various... And what was interesting is just recently, suddenly a lot of these tech companies have called me. They're like, "It looks like you were right about them hating us." [chuckles] I was like, "Now they hate you more. Like, I don't know what to tell you because you've done so many horrible things." But talk about, um, w- you know, when you, when they try to blame it on NIMBYism or what's happening here, um, maybe each of you, uh, talk about, um, how it's affected politics. As-- And by the way, it's against the, um, um, the backdrop of President Trump signing an executive order to speed up federal approvals for AI data centers and energy infrastructure, and the Energy Department announced last week that the Trump administration is repurposing federal land to host massive data centers. So that's happening. Um, why don't, uh, Andy, you start? Given the federal government's efforts to accelerate it, to what extent can you rein it in? And then the others can comment on that.

Andy Schor 51:03 Uh, in terms of reining it in-

Kara Swisher 51:04 Yeah

Andy Schor 51:04 ... uh, again, I think we can set local conditions. Um, some-

Kara Swisher 51:07 But not if they put it on a federal land.

Andy Schor 51:10 Um, generally zoning is not-- I mean, zoning generally gets left to locals, with local citizens being able to make that decision at a planning commission meeting, um, which is made up of citizens that are appointed or, you know, elected. Um, so I, I think that that's, I, I think remaining a, a local decision where you can throw out your mayor and council members for whatever decision they make. You have recall. You know, one of the things that concerns me, and you know about this, is the, the Trump administration is proposing, um, putting, uh, federal bureaucrats in charge of making decisions at the federal level for grants and other things like that, um, without actually looking at the, the actual science or the, you know, the, the conditions, and I, I've been pretty critical of that. Uh, I, I think leaving it local. But you know, and I know you had asked kind of what's the, what's the impact. I think that, um, I honestly think that those that care, that have made this their, their issue have formed a block, and I've seen a ton of that.

Kara Swisher 52:09 So y- y- Elena and Erin first, um, how do you-- If Trump is gonna give away federal lands to do this, there is no stopping it, for now at least.

Elena Schlossberg 52:19 So let me just preface this with actually, um, let's make this very clear. It is a bipartisan issue, both on the side of responsible development and oversight and irresponsible. It doesn't matter whether you're blue or red. I see it in both ways. President Biden, on his way out the door, was the first one to pass an executive order to allow federal lands to have, uh, data center infrastructure. And so what President Trump did was he just simply like, I mean, lit that on fire. Right now in Prince William County, I'll read you the headline. Prince William Forest National Park land swap considered for data centers. There's no local oversight. This is federal land. We can do nothing. All we can do is impress upon the secretary of the interior that if this happens, you will s-start to see, um, I think, such a backlash against Republicans that is more than what is happening now because this issue, this issue unites everyone, and it does matter. We do want people being able to see this. You know, fighting data centers and talking about energy and water and grid infrastructure, let me tell you, not the sexiest thing. But when it comes to your utility bills, it really matters. And so this is how I-- This, as much as it has risked democracy, let me tell you something, democracy is what is saving us right now. It is people coming together, using the ballot box, using the process, and using their voices to expose the rot and not caring if it's their own party. And, uh, we, you talked about oversight. I think that was the question. In the state of Virginia, um, in January, we have a very, um, truncated session, and for, this will be year number five we go, we ask for legislation. Last year, we got some through. It's about transparency. It's about accountability. It's about regulation, and it's about holding them accountable. There are ways on a statewide level, and, and we're gonna continue to try again.

Kara Swisher 54:15 Erin, very quickly, um, on if the feds put them on these lands.

Speaker 54:20 Well, it's, it's very concerning, and you are starting to see that happen. And I, I do know, um, prob- we probably all do, that Senator, Senator Sanders is definitely looking at more federal oversight, and I don't know if that kind of, if we can get some of that passed could slow back, um, Trump's decision on federal lands, but it gets pretty dicey. I actually still, you know, and Andy said it, this is very much local issues, very much state issues, and it is concerning that, um, federally Trump would just come in and take over those lands. So it's, it's-- And it is, it's, it's a bipartisan issue, and, you know, Elena is, is correct. There's going to, there's going to be some type of, uh, you know, backlash here politically, and I, I hear it state by state. Texas is really chiming up out there that this is gonna be enough game-changer for people to switch parties.

Kara Swisher 55:18 To switch parties. Okay, so I'm gonna end on talking about data centers done right 'cause they're gonna come. This is gonna happen. So lo- they're gonna have some of them But how to do it correctly, I'd like to end on. Um, a recent report from Brookings Institute argues that data centers can become sustainable engines of local economic growth, but only if communities move away from development model defined by, quote, "speedy deal-making and opaque negotiations," which we've been talking about here. Um, OpenAI has a proposal for so-called AI economic zones that are, uh, quote, "created by local, state, and federal government together with industry that significantly speed up the permitting processes for building AI infrastructure like new solar, uh, arrays, wind farms, and nuclear reactors." I know Sam Altman's particularly interested in nuclear reactors. Um, talk... Uh, uh, Kevin O'Leary has said, quote, "Sustainability is at the heart of what we do in terms of these proposals," which is not accurate. Um, but talk about what has to happen here if there is-- where, where a data center is a genuine value add for the people who live there. I'd like each of you to address

Kara Swisher 56:20 it in any of these ideas, whether it's OpenAI's O- these AI economic zones or using nuclear or what, what would be your i- if you had to be pushed and say, "Okay, we're gonna have a data center." If you were running the show, each of you, what would you, um, foresee? And you could foresee in the future too, like it doesn't have to be what exists at this point. Uh, let's start with you, Logan, and then Andy and Elena and Aaron, and then I have a final question.

Speaker 56:47 Yeah, I mean, th-this is what we've been trying to, to communicate to folks. Like, let's have a positive vision for how to do this responsibly. Um, if data centers are done responsibly, and they actually pay for their own infrastructure, infrastructure and help to actually drive down costs of the infrastructure for other folks, you could actually, you could actually see energy, electricity costs coming down because you're having a, a big, um, you know, a big load that's helping to pay for a lot of the costs that are usually socialized across ratepayers. And so it is possible, but you need people who are, um, ratepayer defenders who are engaged at the Public Service Commission, understand these issues, and understand w- how to structure the tariffs so that, that data centers pay their fair way or more than their fair way. And, you know, again, there have-- there has to be data flexi- or demand flexibility. You know, often our grid is built to supply energy at the peak times when everyone's turning on their air conditioner and when it's the hottest out, right? And you have to have enough, uh, capacity to serve those, and it's really just like ten to twenty hours a year that our energy, uh, spikes up to the, be the highest level, and that drives enormous amount of costs. So if they can just turn off, curtail the load during just a few hours of the year, they could actually, uh, not add to the, the peak load that our grid has to serve, and that, which is a big driver of costs. And again, this is an opportunity to build nuclear energy. Um, nuclear is, is-- There's a lot of discussion about nuclear, um, and frankly, I, it's, it's interesting because, you know, it is a carbon-free form of energy. There's a lot of health concerns with it. We still haven't dealt with the waste. But the biggest problem with nuclear energy is that it's always a decade out, and it's five to six times the cost of anything else.

Kara Swisher 58:45 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 58:45 And so it's kind of, it's used as kind of a distraction for other technologies that we have available today, which is wind-

Kara Swisher 58:52 That's a really good point

Speaker 58:52 ... solar, batteries, and geothermal.

Kara Swisher 58:54 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 58:55 And geothermal specifically fills the same kind of clean, firm generation profile that nuclear would, and we're seeing some, some of the very first next-generation geothermal projects are coming online this year, actually in a few months-

Kara Swisher 59:08 Mm-hmm

Speaker 59:08 ... here in Utah, and there'll be a few more in the West. And so it's a really exciting time. People should be talking about geothermal, and nuclear is just really not a part of the equation because it's-

Kara Swisher 59:18 Okay

Speaker 59:18 ... not economic and it's not timely.

Kara Swisher 59:21 Uh, Andy?

Andy Schor 59:22 Yeah, I mean, I think I've, I've talked quite a bit about kind of the list that we've come up with.

Kara Swisher 59:25 Mm-hmm.

Andy Schor 59:25 But, you know, I, I love the-- We've talked about water and making sure water is, is, um, preserved. I live in Michigan, right? Twenty percent of the fresh water in, uh, in the world is right here in the Midwest and the Great Lakes. You know, again, I love the closed loop system, but I, I hear the, the issues, so I think that needs to be part of the conversation. Um, contributions to low-income energy programs. Uh, again, if they're gonna come in and they're gonna do this, we wanna make sure that people not only aren't being affected, but more people can, uh, can afford to live. Um, so I love that. You know, they have to pay to build it. Again, if they're cash rich, they have to pay to build it. In our case, they were gonna pay to build it and then give it to us to operate. You know, for me, local decision. If the locals wanna operate it, if they want the, you know, the company to operate it, um, no incentives, a-and I, and I hold to that. You know, they don't need them, and, um, I don't think that we should be giving them, um, you know, urban infill. Zoning and location. You know, location. Again, we wanted to put ours in, in the northern part of the downtown. People didn't like that, and they got their way, and that's okay. Um, but it's also industrial by right. Like, if there's an industrial area, we've got plenty of industrial areas. We have an auto plant that, um, that closed in two thousand and six, you know. Industrial by right, they may, they may go there, um, which is the natural place for them to go. You know, we don't have farmland, so I can't comment on that. I think there's a system that can be set up, um, because again, I think we're gonna have them. I think there is a demand, and I-- you'll say we'll get to it, for AI.

Kara Swisher 1:00:52 Mm-hmm.

Andy Schor 1:00:52 I mean, when we, when we have people come in and tell us-

Kara Swisher 1:00:54 Mm-hmm

Andy Schor 1:00:54 ... the evils of AI reading it from the AI on their phone-

Kara Swisher 1:00:58 [laughs]

Andy Schor 1:00:58 ... there, you know, there's a hypocrisy there.

Kara Swisher 1:01:00 There is. There is.

Andy Schor 1:01:01 Um, so-

Kara Swisher 1:01:01 That's my last question. What-

Andy Schor 1:01:02 You have to, you have to-

Kara Swisher 1:01:03 Yeah

Andy Schor 1:01:03 ... figure out what you need and how you get there.

Kara Swisher 1:01:05 Right. Uh, Elena?

Elena Schlossberg 1:01:07 So I just, I, I, I look at this and I reverse the equation, and the equation is not how do we meet this load demand, it is how do we demand less. Here's what a good AI data-center buildout looks like. They're not relying on coal. They're not relying on diesel generators. They're not relying on gas turbines. They don't need all the chillers on top because they need to remain so cool. Um, I mean, 'cause that's really what this is all about, is their cooling Uh, a, a healthy data center buildout is less. A healthy data center buildout is simply a new technology that requires less. Because I'll tell you, a campus four miles down the road from me at an intersection, 150 acres, two campuses combined, is about a, a thousand megawatts, which is one gigawatt. That's enough for one nuclear reactor. The scale and cumulative impacts are beyond anything. It is unprecedented, and we need to slow down to understand. Like, the, you know, the cart before the horse? I mean, that cart is, like, miles ahead.

Speaker 1:02:08 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 1:02:10 That's a really good point. Uh, Erin?

Speaker 1:02:12 I'm laughing, Elena, 'cause that's exactly what I was gonna say.

Kara Swisher 1:02:15 Oh.

Speaker 1:02:15 This conversation and everybody's points are spot on, but it's difficult to have because the horse has left the barn. And this is precisely, you know... And I, I will talk about the corporations here, and I have seen them do this for 30 years over and over again expecting the same result. You never put safety and infrastructure on the upfront. You're always running something down the line for the money to be the first, to be the best, to make more money. And if you would reverse that business model and do safety and infrastructure on the upfront before you let the horse out of the gate, you'll still yield a profit, but your long-term yields would be so much greater. And everybody that has been here today, I've loved this conversation. I could do this all day long. Its points are well taken, and the horse has left the barn, and it's going to be very hard to get it back. And I do think that this time it's going to take local council, it's going to state, take state, it's gonna take federal, but something that I think we have been missing for a long time is gonna be a huge part of this change in conversation. And how you get that horse back in the barn, if you can, and how you move forward is going to be coming from the people. They have-

Kara Swisher 1:03:48 I would agree

Speaker 1:03:48 ... often been left out of this equation.

Kara Swisher 1:03:50 Yeah. Yeah. But this seems-- So this is my last question. Data centers obviously have been wrapped up as, as Andy noted, in a broader AI backlash. And for many people, it, as I noted, it feels like the facilities and the tech they enable are being forced upon them. And w- I'd like to know from each of you the last question. What's the most important thing that needs to happen to change public opinion, not just on data centers, but on AI more broadly and tech? W- I think the tech people have done it to themselves, which, uh, I, you know, one of your-- When you said safety, I, I, I had a line in my book five years ago saying, um, uh, "How can you understand safety if you never felt unsafe a day in your life?" These are people who create things who n-aren't unsafe and then wonder why people of color or women are upset by social, this is about social media, because they never feel unsafe. Um, is, y-how do you... The broad public opinion is very clear on this, and especially with young people around AI overall, and now data centers is another manifestation of that. Is, y-at, at, at, at some level, it does cross over into probably not great for our future, right? To not to be part of the, of building things and in industries. Um, probably these discussions happened around railroads and, uh, g-you know, cars and everything else. We've had this before, and as you note, Erin, correctly, these companies never change. It's just the type of company it is. It's the same people doing the same nonsense. Um, what do you, what, what, how is it, what's the most important thing that needs to happen to change public opinion, uh, on the whole, on the topic? Um, I'd like first Elena, and then Andy, Logan, and Erin, you get the last word on what could be done to change the public's attitude? 'Cause right now it's deeply negative, I would say. And it c- it should be somewhere in the middle, presumably.

Elena Schlossberg 1:05:37 I, I don't know. I think that's a great question. I, I wouldn't presume that it should be. I think that there is a place for technology, and right now it's like we're at Caligula's drunken fest, and everybody is partaking with no thought of consequences. And so I believe, I trust people, and I believe they, first of all, we're smelling it, we're feeling it, we're seeing it, we're tasting it. Something is broken, and, uh, I see it with my kids who re- who actually reject a lot of the AI slog.

Kara Swisher 1:06:12 Mine too.

Elena Schlossberg 1:06:13 And I think-

Kara Swisher 1:06:13 Yeah, mine too

Elena Schlossberg 1:06:13 ... that what has to happen is a more mature conversation, which, you know, is not happening right now. So I actually, I don't know. I, I think that this is-- I'm a counselor. I was a middle school counselor. I think the conversation, the difficult conversation that's happening now needs to happen, and if it's uncomfortable, good.

Kara Swisher 1:06:32 Mm-hmm. That's a really good point. Uh, uh, Andy?

Andy Schor 1:06:37 Sure. Um, you know, I, I think, Kara, you made some good points that this has happened before, and I think a lot of that, knowing my history, is, is unchecked commerce, right? So what did we do in the past? We didn't just suddenly trust the auto industry. We didn't just suddenly trust manufacturing. We said five-day workweek. We said occupational safety standards. We said, you know, these are things that, for us in a union state, created the unions. Um, these are the important pieces that got us to this is, this is a positive because it's jobs, and people are getting paid, and the cars are coming and, uh... And I think that's what we've been talking about, is, you know, what are the guardrails? What are the guardrails to make sure that, that we can have this tool that I do think is going to be Part of the future, but have it responsibly. Um, and to all that being said, what does that mean? It means you gotta build trust. And I, I think you're hearing this here from Elena and Erin and Logan a- and you, and there is not trust. And I think you and I talked about this. You asked me, do people not trust the local government? And I said, "I think they do trust the local government. They don't trust the companies to do what they're promising." Um, so I think it's, it's building trust, and how do you build trust? Carrot and the stick. Um, you know, the, the carrot is you tell them, "This is what you have to do for people to trust you," and the stick is, "These are the guardrails, and you will comply with these guardrails, or you won't have a business, and somebody else will comply with the guardrails, [laughs] and they will win the day." And you had asked, you know, before, what's the rush? The- these folks are all telling local governments that they wanna be up in 18 months 'cause the AI race is gonna be over in 18 months. So you gotta build guardrails, you gotta do it with trust, and I think that would result in getting us the technology that we need as we move forward.

Kara Swisher 1:08:25 Mm-hmm. That's a really good point. Uh, uh, Logan?

Speaker 1:08:28 Yeah, so I mean, I think what's happening, one of the, one of the dynamics that's happening right now is with this current administration, it is really a, a smash-and-grab kind of environment. And-

Kara Swisher 1:08:39 I call it a coin-operated presidency, but go ahead

Speaker 1:08:42 ... Right. Right. Exactly. And, and that is, is going to lead to a massive backlash because it's just not, it's, it's not building... It's, it's destroying the social compact. And these companies, if they're smart, they need to figure out how to regain the public's trust. And, and really to do that, we need policy regularity, and really, I think the, the name of the game, kinda the, the key point is clear, fair rules aren't the enemy of growth. They protect responsible growth. So and that's what we need. We need to get back to this kind of... And, and it's bringing the public into the conversation, making sure we can move forward together. Unless we're doing that, we're gonna have all of this conflict, and it's just gonna, it's just gonna blow up in their face 'cause we have a democracy, and that's the way it works, and it's not gonna turn out well until we can get back to clear, fair rules.

Kara Swisher 1:09:39 Erin, you get the last word.

Speaker 1:09:41 Well, everybody brings up such great points, and, and listening to all of it, it kinda makes me think, you know, um, we're in between here, uh, The Flintstones and The Jetsons, and, uh, the people have suddenly become the gladiators. And for all the forward progress we make, we're gonna realize there's some things in the Flintstone days that we just can't do without, and that's jeopardizing our natural resources, our health, and our welfare. And I think a lot of this will begin right at home and teaching kids about AI. So it's gonna be a balance that happens in the home. It needs to be a balance that will happen politically. It will be a conversation and just this push-all, be-all, um, almost takeover of a country. And, and believe me, this is not only here in America. This is a global issue. I have-

Kara Swisher 1:10:41 Yeah

Speaker 1:10:41 ... 10 countries reaching out now.

Kara Swisher 1:10:43 Yep. Absolutely.

Speaker 1:10:44 So if ever there's been a moment where we can collectively come together on something, who knew data centers might be-

Kara Swisher 1:10:52 I know

Speaker 1:10:52 ... the one thing-

Kara Swisher 1:10:54 I did

Speaker 1:10:54 ... that unites us all?

Kara Swisher 1:10:54 I think you're, uh... Interestingly, I think you are somewhat affected when they start talking about data centers in space. That's, [laughs] you know, it's like, I'm just leaving. And we're like, "Go." [laughs] Good for you.

Speaker 1:11:04 Well-

Kara Swisher 1:11:05 Godspeed

Speaker 1:11:05 ... it's a frustrating conversation. There are other options, and there are other solutions. And, and we-

Kara Swisher 1:11:10 I know

Speaker 1:11:10 ... have clearly discussed that-

Kara Swisher 1:11:12 They're not putting-

Speaker 1:11:12 ... and why we have to do it this way. Maybe this will be-

Kara Swisher 1:11:15 They're, yeah

Speaker 1:11:15 ... the last time we learn the lesson, but I don't think so.

Kara Swisher 1:11:18 I don't think so either.

Speaker 1:11:19 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:11:19 Anyway, um, and I will, I would be remiss, some of the stuff around AI, just did a recent series about medical stuff, about longevity, and some of the AI stuff is going to be groundbreaking. And so-

Speaker 1:11:28 It is.

Speaker 1:11:29 Absolutely

Kara Swisher 1:11:29 ... that's what we have to focus on, the stuff that is useful for everyone versus just-

Speaker 1:11:34 Yeah

Kara Swisher 1:11:34 ... a small, a group of people who just wanna become richer and stuff like that.

Speaker 1:11:37 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:11:37 This has been an incredibly thoughtful conversation. I really appreciate it, and I'm glad we had the time to sort of debate different things and talk it out, and it's an ongoing issue, and so we'll have you back and maybe next year to see where we are when and how this is alter- well, it'll-

Speaker 1:11:51 It's a great conversation

Kara Swisher 1:11:52 ... be many years.

Speaker 1:11:52 I enjoyed meeting everyone.

Kara Swisher 1:11:54 All right. Me too.

Speaker 1:11:55 Thank you so much.

Kara Swisher 1:11:56 Thank you, everyone-

Andy Schor 1:11:56 Thank you.

Kara Swisher 1:11:56 .. for being so thoughtful.

Andy Schor 1:11:57 Come on out to Lansing any time. [laughs]

Kara Swisher 1:11:59 At Lansing. [laughs]

Speaker 1:12:00 Come to Virginia.

Kara Swisher 1:12:01 All right.

Speaker 1:12:01 I'll give you a tour.

Kara Swisher 1:12:02 Thank you guys so much for doing this. Today's show was produced by Nishat Kurwa, Michelle Aloy, Kathrin Millsap, Megan Bernie, Madeline LaPlant-Dubé, and Cailin Lynch. Special thanks to Dave Shaw, Andrea Lopez Cruzado, and Julia Sharp Levine. Our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you're getting solar-powered, aesthetically pleasing data center in your backyard. If not, we're sending you to Elon's data center in space. Thanks for watching. See you on Monday. [upbeat music]