High Stakes with HRC: Is the Justice Department Dead?—with Rachel Maddow

Kara Swisher 0:00 We're a coven, everybody, so just so you know, we're gonna start, like, hocus-focusing the [censored] out of this stuff. [upbeat music] Hi, everyone, I'm Kara Swisher.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 0:10 And I'm Hillary Clinton.

Kara Swisher 0:11 Well, welcome to what the one internet troll called the number one podcast in hell.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 0:16 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 0:17 High Stakes from the Vox Media Podcast Network. That's some-

Hillary Rodham Clinton 0:20 Well, at least they're paying attention, Kara

Kara Swisher 0:22 They... Oh, they're going crazy, Hillary.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 0:24 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 0:24 You don't know. They're like, "Ugh, after the election, and then this?" But what is your assessment now? How are you feeling days in, I would say?

Hillary Rodham Clinton 0:33 I feel even better.

Kara Swisher 0:34 Mm-hmm.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 0:34 Um, we've won more seats since, uh, last Tuesday-

Kara Swisher 0:38 Mm-hmm

Hillary Rodham Clinton 0:38 ... when the first results came in. I've been talking to a number of the winning candidates. Their energy is really positive.

Kara Swisher 0:47 Mm-hmm.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 0:47 Uh, they have a great idea of what they wanna do when they get to Washington, or in the case of the newly elected governors, when they take over their state houses.

Kara Swisher 0:56 Mm-hmm.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 0:56 It's just been like a poisonous cloud-

Kara Swisher 0:59 Right

Hillary Rodham Clinton 0:59 ... uh, has been lifted, uh, over our politics, and people are actually, you know, talking about what they wanna get done-

Kara Swisher 1:07 Right

Hillary Rodham Clinton 1:07 ... and trying to set good goals and then figure out how to achieve them. I'm thrilled.

Kara Swisher 1:12 Yeah, the picture from the Senate of the Senate, uh, freshman class was like, it looked like a Benetton ad or something.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 1:19 It looked just like America, and that... You know, look, we know that diverse groups actually do make better decisions, so let's welcome the fact that we have, you know, so many, you know, newly elected, uh, members of Congress and governors who come from different experiences, have different points of view, and are going to bring that into, uh, their leadership. I think, I think that's exactly what we should be saluting as Americans.

Kara Swisher 1:46 Absolutely, and we're still waiting on a couple of races. Um, and-

Hillary Rodham Clinton 1:49 Yeah, we've got our fingers crossed, uh, on Mississippi and Alaska for the Senate

Kara Swisher 1:53 Y- yeah, Lauren Boebert hasn't accepted her loss, even though it's sort of been called at this point.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 1:56 No, I think she's whining and-

Kara Swisher 1:58 Yeah

Hillary Rodham Clinton 1:58 ... carrying on again-

Kara Swisher 1:59 Yeah

Hillary Rodham Clinton 1:59 ... so we'll see where that ends up.

Kara Swisher 2:01 Do you know, I was, the last stop on the Pivot Live Tour was in the theater, uh, where she saw Beetlejuice, or saw half of Beetlejuice, actually.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 2:08 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 2:09 We couldn't believe... You sh-

Hillary Rodham Clinton 2:10 Did you have a, uh, have a moment of silence to mark that, uh, occasion?

Kara Swisher 2:13 Well, and the people of Denver, it's like they're, they're proud of it now. They're like... 'Cause the mayor there, Mike Johnston, we had him on stage, and he goes, "You know, this..." We didn't know, and of course, Scott lost his mind, you know-

Hillary Rodham Clinton 2:24 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 2:24 ... that he was there, and we kept saying, "Which seat? Which seat? Which, who's sitting in it? Let's give them a free T-shirt."

Hillary Rodham Clinton 2:29 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 2:29 Um, but it was, uh, it was really fun. It was fun, and we, and we, we told a lot of good-

Hillary Rodham Clinton 2:33 Yeah, you and Scott looked like you were having an amazing time.

Kara Swisher 2:35 We were... Yeah-

Hillary Rodham Clinton 2:36 And, uh-

Kara Swisher 2:36 ... Scott started dancing a lot during that

Hillary Rodham Clinton 2:38 ... that, Scott dancing, you know, was one of the highlights for me.

Kara Swisher 2:41 Yeah, yeah. I think I'm trying to get, uh, Hakeem Jeffries to declare white men dancing illegal-

Hillary Rodham Clinton 2:45 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 2:46 ... going forward, but we'll see where that goes. But let's get into the news. There's, a huge story broke during the time-

Hillary Rodham Clinton 2:51 Yes

Kara Swisher 2:51 ... and it's something I took very seriously right away. NVIDIA's

Kara Swisher 2:55 board is investigating CEO Jensen Huang after his admission that he had an affair with a woman who US intelligence believes was a Chinese spy. She was reportedly recruited by China's top spy agency to get Huang to push Washington to let NVIDIA sell chips to China, and that's exactly what he's been pushing for. Still, NVIDIA's, uh, board says it has full confidence in him. You've dealt with Chinese intelligence operations as Secretary of State. NVIDIA is worth trillions of dollars, and Trump wants those chip sales. But does the spy scandal, uh, change US-China policy? I'd love just your take on the whole thing, and I'll talk about the tech part.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 3:30 Yeah, well, this is a huge story, and it says, uh, a lot about how, uh, the Trump administration deals with, uh, national security threats. It doesn't appear, from everything that I've been able to read up until now, that they did what is called a defensive briefing, where they actually went to, uh, Jensen Huang and said, "We believe, based on intelligence..." And remember, this is not people sitting around speculating. This is hard, uh, what are called, what's called signal intelligence, intercepted calls, emails. And they should have gone to him and said, "We believe that this woman, Alice Huang, is a Chinese spy, that she is part of the Ministry of State Security in China, and she is extracting information from you." Uh, this is not a, you know, a, a, a moral issue about his personal relationships. It's a national security threat.

Kara Swisher 4:37 Right, right.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 4:38 But as far as I know, they never went to him.

Kara Swisher 4:40 No, yeah, that's w- that's what Trump said.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 4:43 But when I was running for president, Kara, I got a defensive briefing about Russian interference, not that I could talk about it, which sadly, uh, kind of, you know, kept me from explaining a lot of what was going on in that campaign. But, you know, the intelligence community came to me. I also know they gave a defensive briefing to Trump, and not that he cared, uh, because he wanted the help from Russia. So if your government knows that an American citizen is a target of an espionage, uh, operation, and you have reason to believe he does not know that, that he has fallen into what's called, you know, a honeypot operation where a, a beautiful woman, you know, seduces the target, then you owe it to him to tell him. They didn't tell him, and now we know not only did they not tell him, they actively encouraged the continuing sale of the NVIDIA chips. As you say, it's not a huge amount of their business. Um, it's in the single-digit percentage, but it is enough to give a real advantage to the Chinese, who had been told in the Biden administration they couldn't have access, uh, to these chips.

Kara Swisher 5:57 Let me ask a specific question. So these are these defensive hearings that you have. It, it, Trump was saying yesterday off the top of his head, he said it didn't matter. That was one of the things he seemed to say. The second thing is that- May- we didn't tell him. Tell me the ins and outs of this, 'cause something, it looks like Marco Rubio leaked all this [laughs] stuff, because there was a memo Rubio wrote before Huang, uh, Jensen Huang went to, um, China, and he wasn't on the plane, and then he was

Hillary Rodham Clinton 6:24 Yeah, but that decision that, that Rubio, um, w- you know, Rubio sent a memo talking about the seriousness of this, contrary to either the White House or the Commerce Department. And maybe because of Rubio's, uh, memo and whatever follow-up he did, uh, they initially left him off the plane on Trump's, uh, trip to China. But as you know, Trump then intervened and said, "No, no, I want him to come, so he should fly and meet me in Alaska." So I have no doubt that Trump was briefed on this. He was told, "We have intelligence," but remember, Trump doesn't believe the American intelligence community if it in any way, uh, contradicts what he wants to believe. I will predict to you what will happen when he sees, uh, Xi Jinping in, um, you know, a few weeks. He will say to Xi Jinping, like he said to Putin, uh, "Is this true?" And Xi Jinping will say, "Of course it's not, Donald," you know? That, "We wouldn't do that to you." And then Trump will come out and he will say, "I asked President Xi if it were true, and he assured me it wasn't."

Kara Swisher 7:30 That's right.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 7:30 I mean, you can't make it up.

Kara Swisher 7:32 Right. Right.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 7:32 This is a serious breach of national security, which is made even worse by what we have found out in the last 48 hours-

Kara Swisher 7:39 Right

Hillary Rodham Clinton 7:39 ... which is that the NVIDIA general counsel intervened with the Commerce Department, which was actually trying to investigate that these were phony companies that had been set up as pass-throughs to the Chinese government.

Kara Swisher 7:52 So, so a couple more questions, and you can ask me some about the tech implication, 'cause they're really quite large. Like, what occurs next, especially when you have a president who's acting like it's no big deal whatsoever?

Hillary Rodham Clinton 8:02 Well, i- in ordinary times with a normal president, uh, this would be, uh, a really big deal. Um, having warned, uh, you know, Jensen Huang, and having sent a message to the Chinese, "We know what you're doing, and we're not going to, uh, permit it to continue," and basically re-imposing sanctions so that the Chinese pay a price for this espionage that they've conducted against, you know, the CEO of the most valuable [laughs] company in the world. And I don't see any of that happening with the current crew. They don't seem to care about the national security implications. They don't seem to care about, you know, China getting an advantage that I thought we didn't want them to have. They don't seem to care about setting up, you know, the leader of the most, uh, you know, wealthiest company by stock, uh, value in the world.

Kara Swisher 8:56 Who else can do something?

Hillary Rodham Clinton 8:57 Well, the Congress is having a hearing in the next couple of days, I think, uh, led by the Republicans, by the way, because the new Congress hasn't been sworn in yet. And they are trying to, uh, you know, investigate, but I don't think they subpoenaed Huang. I think they invited him. I don't know whether he'll show up or somebody on his behalf will show up. I don't know what they're going to find, but I think that this is part of why we need accountability and affordability as the two, uh, big agenda items when the Democrats do take over. There are some, uh, legal, uh, restraints that could be imposed, although Trump could very well veto, uh, whatever is passed. There can be some, uh, appropriation plays, where the Congress tries to, uh, limit what, uh, the White House can do with money, and some of that might very well, uh, be a directive that, you know, we're not gonna fund the Commerce Department unless they reimpose, uh, the blocks on, on chips. I mean, there are things that the Congress can do, but all of that, to some extent, depends on a law-abiding administration, which we know we don't have.

Kara Swisher 10:08 Yeah, so that's where it is. So he may do nothing. He could-

Hillary Rodham Clinton 10:10 Yeah

Kara Swisher 10:10 ... until the Democrats come in, and then they could put pressure on him, presumably.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 10:13 Yeah, but I, I do wanna ask you, who else in Silicon Valley do you think has been targeted, and what are the implications for tech going forward?

Kara Swisher 10:21 Uh, I, I, it's really interesting. There's a couple of things. Initially, w- I've known Jensen for a long time. He actually... When he, he was on stage at one of my conferences. It was when he was doing gaming chips, and I, b- be honest with you, they kind of begged me to get on stage, 'cause it wasn't that important a company. It was a medium important company, essentially. And I did anyway, 'cause I was interested in chips, and so I had him, 'cause I was worried about the chip crisis in this country, that it was manufactured in Taiwan, that China was gon- It was a real, to me, a national security threat of our reliance on chips in an area China could really squeeze us. So I thought it was interesting in general. But later, he, he has not talked to me since this thing has taken off, because I suspect I'd be a little tougher on him. He, he's in charge of this company in a way that I thought was very dangerous in terms of the board being incredibly weak. He seemed-

Hillary Rodham Clinton 11:07 So even before this-

Kara Swisher 11:08 Yes

Hillary Rodham Clinton 11:08 ... spy scandal.

Kara Swisher 11:09 Yes. I thought he had unlimited power in a way that was really problematic. I think also all these roundtripping deals between and among these AI companies was troublesome with Jensen and NVIDIA at its center. Um-

Hillary Rodham Clinton 11:22 Yeah

Kara Swisher 11:22 ... I thought he was imposing himself on politics in a way that was really troubling with a president that was coin operated with the money. I think they put $25 million into the ballroom, NVIDIA did. Um, I thought he sort of sidled up to Trump in a way that, for his own purposes, to sell more chips to China, and had an undue influence on him, 'cause Trump thought he was rich and smart, you know? And there was money, and, like, t- Trump likes to surround himself, looking better himself. So I was always worried about his inf- his, his, his... Not that, that ch- people sh- or, or tech people shouldn't have an influence, but the amount of influence Jensen especially had on Trump was problematic when he didn't have any guardrails at his own company, right? That was very clear. But I found it really troubling that there was no strictures on his power, either from a shareholder point of view, and that there's this... I worry about the Jenga of it all. Like, all, if, if something happens to NVIDIA, the rest of them go down, right? Because of the cross-investments. And the last thing is, obviously, Chinese intelligence is gonna be all over Silicon Valley, and the sloppiness here- Is, a- again, y- as you said, get away from the moral things. The sloppiness here, and the, i- i- I bet people knew this woman was doing this. I, I suspect it was not unknown. I wonder what kind of reaction the other tech CEOs will have because they're so dependent on Jensen Huang. I worry about, uh, the, the, the fact that they won't replace him or they won't let him go because they think he's a key man and that there's no way to get rid of him. Uh, I think that if you were a regular CEO, just the affair would get you fired, right? So then there's the affair, then there's the Chinese spy part of the affair, and then there's the what else was... We don't know what was given to this woman, right? We don't... There's so much we don't know. And so I, I worry that nothing's gonna be done here and, and that the Chinese intelligence will continue to in, in, not just Chinese intelligence, Iranian, Russian, everyone-

Hillary Rodham Clinton 13:23 Yeah. Yeah

Kara Swisher 13:24 ... it just, it's just like open season on these sloppy, uh, men. And again, it comes down to sex and deception, right? Like, ultimately nothing, you know, uh, nothing can stop that, I guess.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 13:35 Well, the thing that really struck me is, uh, and you and I were texting about this, there are photographs of them going back at least to 2024.

Kara Swisher 13:44 Yeah, well, earlier, '20... Even earlier.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 13:46 Even earlier.

Kara Swisher 13:47 Yeah.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 13:47 Yeah. So there were a lot of people who were around them. She posted, you know, [laughs] a lot of-

Kara Swisher 13:52 On WeChat

Hillary Rodham Clinton 13:52 ... these photos.

Kara Swisher 13:53 Yeah.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 13:54 And, and that raises some really interesting, uh, questions. I mean, I, I'm also curious about what Trump said in, uh... Was it the 60 Minute interview or one of his many, uh, you know, uh, press encounters over the last week, where he said, "We have something really bad on one of the top AI executives, and we, we could have sent him to jail, but we worked it out"? Was he talking about Jensen Huang? Was he talking about somebody else? I mean, this whole thing is so troubling on, on every level.

Kara Swisher 14:28 Right. Yeah, I think he was talking about Dara Am- Amidi. That's what people think, you know, that they pushed him around. It looked like they did push him around. His entire administration is dependent on the success of AI, and so they'll do anything to keep it going, to keep the party going, and these people don't have power anymore because of what's happened, uh, or have less power. They still have power.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 14:48 But, but Kara, let me ask you-

Kara Swisher 14:49 Mm

Hillary Rodham Clinton 14:49 ... given the power of NVIDIA and where it stands in the economy and, as you rightly point out, the, you know, interlocking relationships with every other tech company-

Kara Swisher 15:01 Right, right

Hillary Rodham Clinton 15:01 ... if, if you were in charge, what would you do?

Kara Swisher 15:04 I, I would... [sighs] I would... Uh, he'd have to step down. I'm sorry. I don't know how he operates from here on in. Everyone goes, "My bad, I was sleeping with a Chinese, you know, sleeper cell." I'd... I just don't know how you have the next meeting. I don't know how... And by the way, we have to be thinking smart about China and how we deal with them, not just that they're stealing our chips. We have to cooperate a lot of stuff on AI policy and everything, and so it's really Tru- You c- this guy, he doesn't have any more credibility, right, in the room. Now, again, Silicon Valley people have... Like, a- all I've seen, like Bill Ackman or this idiot Sean Maguire, he's a venture capitalist, is like, "Hey, he's, he's... He, he made a bad mistake, and he's a good guy and, you know, water under the bridge." I'm like, no fucking water under the bridge. No way. No way. There's no water. We need to investigate this fully, and then look at sort of Chinese intelligence within Silicon Valley. And the first thing they're doing now is saying when Democrats take over, they're gonna do surveillance and censorship and this and that, and I'm like, every accusation is a confession with you sloppy, power-mad people. Like, I, I don't know what to s- it's just not good for the industry overall, where we have been leading.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 16:10 Well, also, you know, the, the Justice Department has totally-

Kara Swisher 16:14 Oh, they're not gonna do anything

Hillary Rodham Clinton 16:15 ... uh, decimated its counterintelligence expertise. The personnel who used to conduct counterintelligence investigations are largely gone. Even if we were serious about wanting to get to the bottom of what potential problems Chinese, uh, spying is causing beyond this one incident, we'd have to staff up again-

Kara Swisher 16:36 Right

Hillary Rodham Clinton 16:36 ... because we don't have the people with the expertise who even know where to look to find answers.

Kara Swisher 16:40 Yeah, also the FBI. Like, someone was like, "Oh, now the FBI."

Hillary Rodham Clinton 16:43 Oh, the team with the FBI. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 16:44 I was like, I don't want the FBI. Who looks at it?

Hillary Rodham Clinton 16:45 Cash Patel is on it.

Kara Swisher 16:46 Yeah, he's on it. [laughs]

Hillary Rodham Clinton 16:47 Or whatever.

Kara Swisher 16:47 Yeah, he's, he's having a beer first, and then he's on it.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 16:50 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 16:51 Um, but it's just... There's nobody to investigate this but c- congressional, uh, when, when the Democrats... There are significantly good people on this. I'm gonna ask you la- one last question on this. Did you ever have a situation like this, besides you being briefed yourself about Russian intelligence?

Hillary Rodham Clinton 17:05 Well, a- as Secretary of State, I was privy to a lot of classified information-

Kara Swisher 17:10 [laughs]

Hillary Rodham Clinton 17:11 ... about Americans who were targets of, um, surveillance and approaches, uh, that were deeply disturbing, and some of these were, you know, totally, uh, clueless. Uh, they were business people. They were government officials. They would be in, you know, not just the usual suspects, not just China, uh, and Russia, uh, but you know, other agencies would be targeting them when they traveled to Europe or they traveled elsewhere in Asia, uh, besides China. And we would pick up, um, signals, uh, signal intelligence about, you know, them being targeted, and it, some... We would, we would find out, for example, that, um, an American businessman went out for dinner in, uh, a foreign capital, and while he was gone, intelligence agents broke in, totally copied his laptop. I mean, just, you know, took, took a thumb drive out with everything on it. And so we, we saw this. It's incredibly active. And before anybody yells, "Well, we do it, too," yeah, we do it, too, because we're trying to protect America and America's interests and America's security. Um, so yeah, we are both on offense and defense, or we used to be on offense. I'm not sure we are on either offense or defense anymore. Um, but I saw a lot of, uh, classified, uh, reporting about- Um, individual Americans being targeted. And sometimes when you pick that up, you know, we, we pick it up with American, uh, sources and methods, unless it's provided to us by one of our allies, particularly in what are called the Five Eyes group, the English-speaking countries-

Kara Swisher 18:54 Who don't trust us. Who don't trust us

Hillary Rodham Clinton 18:55 ... Yeah. And, and so when we pick it up, the name of the American is what's called masked, uh, because we're-- that wasn't our target. We were surveilling, you know, a, a Russian agent or a Chinese businessperson, but we picked up American, uh-

Kara Swisher 19:10 Which is what happens here

Hillary Rodham Clinton 19:11 ... references there.

Kara Swisher 19:12 Which is what happened here.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 19:13 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 19:13 He was masked.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 19:13 And so then we have to go through a process to, quote, "unmask," and that's what happened here.

Kara Swisher 19:18 Yeah.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 19:18 You know, the original signals intelligence didn't identify who the Chinese were talking about. Um, it might have been obvious, but it wasn't identified, so they had to unmask who it was, uh, and that's how we then find out which Americans are either frankly being targeted or, in some cases, complicitous.

Kara Swisher 19:40 And you yourself have been the subject of this, like with-

Hillary Rodham Clinton 19:43 Oh, I mean, I-

Kara Swisher 19:43 ... your emails, everything else

Hillary Rodham Clinton 19:44 ... yeah. I, I mean, that's why I got the defensive briefing from the intelligence community-

Kara Swisher 19:48 Right

Hillary Rodham Clinton 19:48 ... is, you know, we were being bombarded, and some of them, sadly, were successful with-

Kara Swisher 19:52 Mm-hmm, your emails

Hillary Rodham Clinton 19:53 ... you know, breaking into the DNC-

Kara Swisher 19:54 Mm-hmm

Hillary Rodham Clinton 19:55 ... and breaking into my campaign and, and pulling up emails that were, you know, in, in retrospect, you know, totally, um, vanilla bland but turned into, you know, crazy conspiracy theories. Um-

Kara Swisher 20:08 Right

Hillary Rodham Clinton 20:08 ... so we knew that the Russians were, uh, attacking me personally and attacking anybody associated with me.

Kara Swisher 20:15 Yeah. So you knew that. In any case, it's a developing story. It's quite serious, and we're gonna probably have to wait until, until we... happen. I, I would assume as more information gets brought out about this, including her, there's more, even more reporting today, it's getting worse and worse for Jensen Huang. I don't see how he stays. Um, but, you know, they think him as a key man, and if he goes, the s- shares of NVIDIA will collapse. I don't think they should. He hasn't also put a successor in place. That's the other part, like, because he's so arrogant in that regard. Um, in any case, nice leather jackets. Okay, uh, that should've been a clue. Let's add in Stephen Miller here. He has a new role at the White House, a real doubling down

Kara Swisher 20:54 on Trump's part of everything the election was against, everything the election was about. RFK Jr., by the way, is thrilled for his Maha buddy. But, you know, you were in the White House after 1994. Your husband changed course after that midterm wipeout. Um, uh, Trump is sticking with Hegseth. He's picked Mi- Miller, who is an ally of Hegseth's. It looks like Susie Wiles was not and was trying to s- force Hegseth out. What, what is... Talk about this appointment itself, because that's the first thing he did, right? Like, the first thing he did was shove Susie Wiles out. Um, and then it, it protects Hegseth. There is really no way to get rid of him if the, the trial in the Senate doesn't happen, correct?

Hillary Rodham Clinton 21:34 Probably. Yep, probably that's right. It looks like, you know, Trump is standing by Hegseth, uh, and he appointed Stephen Miller to be his new, uh, chief of staff, and it was an odd, uh, moment in the 60 Minutes interview when he admitted that maybe his deportation policy went too far, and he started talking about, you know, people who were waitresses or landscapers or worked in hotels and, you know, they were sent away, and it, it made no sense because he has just elevated the person who, uh, has been the architect of the cruelest, uh, deportation policy you can imagine. So I think that this is a, a, a bit of a split screen moment. Um, we talked at an earlier, uh, podcast about how I thought Trump would double down. Well, Stephen Miller is doubling down.

Kara Swisher 22:35 Tripling down.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 22:35 And there's no two ways about it.

Kara Swisher 22:37 Yeah.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 22:37 This is, like, his, you know-

Kara Swisher 22:38 Right

Hillary Rodham Clinton 22:38 ... this is his id.

Kara Swisher 22:39 Yes.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 22:39 He's gonna put it, you know, in, uh, this chief of staff office because he wants to be totally unleashed, even unhinged. But at the same time, he recognizes that maybe one of the reasons he lost in some places in the country is because the deportation policy went too far. I think you're gonna see a lot of that from him, where he's gonna be kind of pondering, you know, whatever he might do differently. But at the end of the day, he is going to revert, uh, to who he is. He's gonna want vengeance. He's gonna wanna get even, uh, and he likes having people around him who are just as vicious and cruel [chuckles] to those who don't agree as he wants to be.

Kara Swisher 23:23 Hegseth probably won't go anywhere. Trump, most presidents would have gotten rid of that person, right? And-

Hillary Rodham Clinton 23:29 Right

Kara Swisher 23:29 ... and the same thing your husband did when you were in the White House in '94, you shifted, right?

Hillary Rodham Clinton 23:33 Right.

Kara Swisher 23:34 He's not gonna do that. He's not gonna react to the election. That's your feeling, is that... So Hegseth stays, and he keeps, he doubles, triples down on someone like Stephen Miller. That's what you continue to think.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 23:47 I think that's where we are right now, because to admit anything other than that would be to admit that Trump bears, uh, the [chuckles] large measure of responsibility for what happened, uh, on Tuesday, and he can't live with that. He can't brand himself as a loser. He can't admit that his policies, he has to, you know, protect himself, and right now, he sees protecting those who are his most ferocious culture warriors, his most, uh, dedicated-

Kara Swisher 24:20 Loyal

Hillary Rodham Clinton 24:20 ... enforcers, like Hegseth and Miller, as a way of protecting himself.

Kara Swisher 24:24 Right. Right.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 24:24 Uh, so he'll continue to get rid of people that he thinks are not sufficiently loyal or sufficiently, uh-

Kara Swisher 24:33 Rubio

Hillary Rodham Clinton 24:33 ... you know, strong.

Kara Swisher 24:33 Rubio would be.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 24:35 Right?

Kara Swisher 24:35 Would that be Rubio? Because looks like Rubio dropped the dime.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 24:38 No, I think, I think he views Rubio as a useful member of his administration, because he knows that- Uh, Rubio is better liked than most of the people in his administration, whether that's, you know, true or not, that's what he thinks

Kara Swisher 24:53 I want to get your reaction to some of the things President Trump said in his 60 Minutes interview with Ross Douthat. On Iran, he admits voters didn't like the war, but said he'd emphatically do it again and that history will prove him right. He asked about his net worth jumping by billions since he took office. He said he doesn't care and doesn't even know and said everybody got rich. And on UFOs, he says the Air Force pilots have told him very strange things. He also said pilots are very handsome and he wants their haircuts. Um, and then, uh,

Kara Swisher 25:20 the interviewer, Ross, uh, Douthat, a- asked the president whether he could forgive his enemies, which you're referring to, to get into heaven. Here's what he said

Speaker 25:28 Mr. President, you have had the most charmed and remarkable life of any American in my entire lifetime, and you are telling me you couldn't find it in your heart to forgive some of your enemies? Uh- After all that's been given to you? I mean, it's such an easy answer. All I have to do is say, "Yes, I can." I, I, again, I don't think- Honestly- ... it's an easy answer. That's why I asked you ... can I, can I be honest? Yes. I probably cannot do that, no, because I do hate some of my enemies, and I always will

Kara Swisher 25:56 Wow. I, I guess he's talking about you, I'm guessing, too, [laughs] among other things

Hillary Rodham Clinton 26:00 I think that's the, one of the most honest things we've ever heard him say-

Kara Swisher 26:03 Yeah

Hillary Rodham Clinton 26:03 ... to be, you know, commenting on how he really feels and how he really believes. His allies in the far nationalist Christian right are in that same camp. You know, uh, uh, their, their view of Christianity is so extreme, uh, so results-oriented, so f- frankly political and partisan-

Kara Swisher 26:25 Mm-hmm

Hillary Rodham Clinton 26:26 ... uh, politically, that, you know, when they hear him say that, they don't say, "Oh, wait, wait, that, that's, that's the whole message of the New Testament. You know? We're, we're kind of supposed to, you know, forgive, uh, over and over again." No.

Kara Swisher 26:40 Yeah, they like-

Hillary Rodham Clinton 26:40 We can't forgive our enemies because our enemies are, you know, implacable foes of the way we want to run the world

Kara Swisher 26:46 Yeah, they, they like the Old Testament, Hillary

Hillary Rodham Clinton 26:48 They like the Old Testament, the worst parts of it, yeah

Kara Swisher 26:50 So you're not surprised by that. I assume one of the people he's referring to is you. So let me ask you that. You have had the most charmed, remarkable life of any American in my entire lifetime.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 26:59 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 26:59 And you were telling me you couldn't find it in your heart to forgive some of your enemies after all that's been given to you. Hillary, how would you answer that?

Hillary Rodham Clinton 27:06 I, you know what? I, I don't think about them that much. I try to sort of depersonalize it in a way. Like, you know, I, I, I have a very low opinion of, uh, Donald Trump as a human being, but I stay focused on what he's doing that hurts other people, and he's gone after me repeatedly. You know, in his first term, he tried to go after me. He claims he didn't, but he did. He went after me, uh, repeatedly and tried to, quote, "find something on me." So I'm well aware that, uh, I remain not only rent-free in his head, but, you know, in his, uh, uh, mind about how to get even, whatever that means, because, you know, I did get more votes. He can't live with that. The Russians did help him. He can't believe that. I mean, all of this is so much more about him. So I, I don't spend a lot of time, uh, thinking about who hates me, because, you know, that's a long list. [laughs]

Kara Swisher 28:03 [laughs] Yes, that is.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 28:04 That's a long list, Kara. [laughs]

Kara Swisher 28:04 Would you find it in your heart to forgive them?

Hillary Rodham Clinton 28:07 I'm gonna forgive people for what they've done to me, but I'm gonna try to make sure that they're not in positions of power-

Kara Swisher 28:15 Right, right

Hillary Rodham Clinton 28:15 ... to hurt other people

Kara Swisher 28:17 Do you know what, Hillary? I don't forgive anybody. I...

Hillary Rodham Clinton 28:19 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 28:19 You know. Now, I told you, my whole plan is not me- ready to make nice by the, by the Chicks. Not me. I just am not, and I, I doubt I ever will be. We're gonna take a quick break. When we come back, JD Vance is no longer the obvious 2028 presidential candidate, but who is? [upbeat music] Support for this show comes from the Freedom From Religion Foundation. On High Stakes, Hillary and I talk about the choices shaping our democracy. Here's a fundamental one: Who should hold power in America, the people or religion? Our founders created a constitution that bars religious tests for public office, and the First Amendment protects your freedom to believe or not believe. Yet we're seeing a growing efforts to blur the line between religion and government from public schools to public policy. When the government takes sides on religion, everyone's freedom is at risk. The Freedom From Religion Foundation works to keep state and church separate. FFRF also stands up for free thinkers, atheists, agnostics, and millions of non-religious Americans whose voices deserve to be heard. Visit FFRF.us/kara or text K-A-R-A to 511-511 to learn more or to join. Because protecting democracy means protecting freedom for everyone. Text Kara to 511-511 or go to FFRF.us/kara. Text fees may apply. HRC, we're back. The 2028 Republican primaries started the morning after the midterms. Ron DeSantis

Kara Swisher 29:47 is on a media blitz now running against the Iran war and against AI data centers. Georgia Governor Brian Kemp, who crushed the Trump-backed challenger in 2022, is thinking about running. He should, actually. Others in the mix include, uh, Glenn Youngkin, Sarah Huckabee Sanders, and even Mike Pence. So d- I'd love to... Um, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 30:07 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 30:08 But, but what do you, what do you, what do you think about this? Which Republican should Democrats be most worried about, and which one least worried about?

Hillary Rodham Clinton 30:14 It is way too early to tell. I think the person who was hurt the most, um, by the election results on Tuesday was Vance-

Kara Swisher 30:22 Mm-hmm

Hillary Rodham Clinton 30:22 ... um, not only because he was so unctuous and obnoxious, uh, during the campaign. His defense of Ramaswamy alone should disqualify him from even running for president. But we don't know. We don't know what the next months will bring. People will start announcing, you know, not long after the first of the year. Certainly, uh, March, April, uh, will be, uh, the, the very, you know... ... fertile time for people to decide whether or not they're gonna run. So at this point, we don't know who's gonna emerge from the Republicans, we don't know who's going to emerge from the Democrats.

Kara Swisher 30:58 Yeah. Of, of all these people, who do you think is... I think Kemp would be a potent challenger because he sort of kept his nose clean in a lot of ways.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 31:06 Well, I, I think for the sake of the Republican Party, somebody who is not associated with Trump, either having served with him in either term, or having supported him in the Congress, and that kind of leaves governors or outsiders who might be inclined to run. I think somebody who can turn the page on Trump is going to be attractive, uh, to all but the hardcore Trump base.

Kara Swisher 31:34 Right, right.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 31:34 And if you're, if you're a Republican voter, um, I would think, uh, you're gonna want somebody who can, you know, say, "Look, that was then, this is now. We've gotta run for the future, and-

Kara Swisher 31:47 Yeah

Hillary Rodham Clinton 31:47 ... Trump is gone, and we thank him for his service, but, you know, let's, uh, pick a leader who's going to represent-

Kara Swisher 31:54 A leader, yeah

Hillary Rodham Clinton 31:55 ... uh, the, the best interests of the Republican Party." Now, I hope they don't do that. I hope they nominate somebody who, uh, is, is as big a loser as they can, but we'll see.

Kara Swisher 32:05 [laughs] Yeah.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 32:05 We'll see how the voters and the candidates, uh, behave.

Kara Swisher 32:08 So do you see the return of Liz Cheney?

Hillary Rodham Clinton 32:10 Liz has earned every bit of her I told you so, um, because she tried to not only stand up for the truth, but also to warn the Republican Party that they, you know, were lashing themselves, uh, to a sinking, uh, Titanic of a candidate, uh, with Trump. Eventually, it would, it would come back to haunt them. So I don't know what she's thinking or if she thinks she has any future in politics, but s- some group of Republicans need to rebuild the Republican Party so that it can once again, uh, not just win elections, but, you know, be, be viewed as a viable Republican party and not a Trump cult.

Kara Swisher 32:52 Yeah. I see like a, a, a Cheney, Mike Gallagher. There's a whole bunch. Uh, all right, last, last quick thing with coming in January, Trump said the Democrats plan to investigate him are sleazebags who should go to jail. His attorney general, Todd Blanche, we'll be talking about in a second with a special guest, went further suggesting Democrats could be prosecuted of what they've said about holding Trump officials accountable. Now, I don't know if you remember this, but you testified for 11 hours before the Benghazi Committee, and you know the difference between oversight and a show trial better than anyone. Give Democrats a piece of advice that now that they're about to get the gavel, what they have to do and what they shouldn't do.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 33:27 They have to run really disciplined hearings, and that's gonna be challenging because they have such a big caucus now, and a lot of new members will be on these committees. And the chairs of these committees, particularly Judiciary, um, and Oversight, but really all of them, are going to have to empower their counsels who are going to be expert in the facts, the evidence, the law, to do the bulk of the questioning. Because if you just throw it open to the usual five-minute round, it's hard to know at the end what happened and, and what did we find out, because everybody goes off on their own tangent. And then the chair and the counsel are going to have to work with the members to make them experts in something. So for example, if you're gonna go after Todd Blanche, you need to have members who really know everything he did, uh, to protect, uh, Trump, uh, to block the investigations and violate the law about the Epstein files. And then you can have others who are looking at the corruption, uh, of, you know, Trump's family and, and all of their, uh, uh, deals. So we, we need to-

Kara Swisher 34:40 So to tell a cogent story, you're saying

Hillary Rodham Clinton 34:41 ... we need to be really disciplined and organized because these are gonna be high-stakes hearings. I think they're essential to do, but let's look like we are, you know, very much on top of our game when we start.

Kara Swisher 34:54 When we start, and very disciplined. All right. We're gonna break now, and we'll be back with our first guest on our show. We are back, and Madam Secretary, we are adding a third today. This is our trouble situation.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 35:06 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 35:06 She is the anchor of the award-winning Rachel Maddow Show, and like five million other things, her latest book, Department of Fate: The Promise, the Power, and the Collapse of America's Most Consequential Institution, is out now. You'll remember that Rachel and I are the Pacino and De Niro of lesbian journalists. Just keep that in mind.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 35:24 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 35:24 So I'm gonna start. Rachel, welcome, by the way.

Rachel Maddow 35:26 Thank you so much.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 35:27 Welcome, Rachel, and congratulations on the book release.

Rachel Maddow 35:30 Thank you. Well, congratulations on how successful your podcast is, you two. I feel like the three of us, like, clearly we should be a thing.

Kara Swisher 35:40 We should be a thing. I agree.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 35:41 We are definitely gonna be a thing.

Kara Swisher 35:42 We are gonna be.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 35:43 100%.

Kara Swisher 35:44 Yeah, it's like right now, we were just saying we were called the podcast from hell by a bunch of Elon stans on Twitter.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 35:49 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 35:50 Uh, it's like the 10th ring of hell, but now that we've added you, it's created... They're probably gonna lose their minds.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 35:55 Oh my gosh, their heads are exploding as we speak.

Kara Swisher 35:56 Exploding right now.

Rachel Maddow 35:58 We've now started... Our circle of hell is swirling to a degree that it's gonna suck all of them into it. [laughs]

Kara Swisher 36:03 It's, it's like a coven. It's a coven. We're a coven, everybody, so just so you know, we're gonna start, like, hocus-focusing the shit out of this stuff.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 36:11 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 36:11 But let me, let me get to your book, 'cause it really comes at a perfect time. Uh, you're head witch. You're, you're like the Bette Midler character, HRC, just so you know.

Rachel Maddow 36:20 Oh, God, please.

Kara Swisher 36:20 Okay. Yeah, yeah. [laughs] I'm the dumb one. [laughs] I'm the Sarah Jessica Parker, and you can be Kathy, uh, Najimy. All right. Um, your, your new book is about the collapse of the Justice Department, which, uh, you described in The Atlantic as staffed by C-list podcasters, QAnon-adjacent influencers, weirdo cable news gadflies, and the kind of friend- friendless indoor boys who try to choose their own nicknames. [laughs] Very, very well said. Um, y- you know, in the, in, in the weeks since the midterms, it's been losing people fast. Four top officials have resigned, including heads of the civil rights, civil, national security divisions, plus the prosecutor whose office ran Trump's grand conspiracy probe into his enemies. In your Atlantic piece this week, you called the department missing, presumed dead, so perfect timing. Um, talk about what's happening right now, and then we'll get to your book, the book itself.

Rachel Maddow 37:10 The Justice Department in Trump's second term has been a clown car and a joke and a disaster. And lots of things in the government have been a clown car and a joke and a disaster under Trump, especially after DOGE and what they did to the government. But I think that's a surprising thing. One of the reasons I wrote the book is that I was wrong about what Trump was gonna do with the Justice Department in his second term. I thought that he would supersize it, turn it into a nuclear weapon, use it, you know, put all the most effective people that he could there and use it for everything he possibly could. Instead, it's effectively been razed. It's ef- effectively gone. So that's very interesting. Um, but under Todd Blanche, still, in its decrepit state, um, it's been kind of a crime scene. I think regardless of how it goes with Hegseth, I think that Todd Blanche will be impeached for what he's done at the Justice Department, and, um, and I think the Democrats have to think about sort of refounding, reforming, reestablishing the Justice Department in a way that makes it more resilient and makes some of this stuff not, um, possible again.

Kara Swisher 38:13 What, what-- Are people leaving right now? Is it clearing the decks before the subpoenas arrive? What is happening in this moment with so many people leaving?

Rachel Maddow 38:21 It's very interesting. So they've lost, as you said, the, the head of the Civil Division, head of the Civil Rights Division, head of the National Security Division, the guy who was running the grand conspiracy investigation. I mean, they're just... All of these people are just fleeing, more so than any other cabinet agency since the election. Why is that? And I- I've talked to reporters who have been working on this in, in very specific ways, trying to figure out the individual motivations of all of these people, 'cause as a group, it looks like, oh, they probably aren't looking forward to the Democrats taking control of Congress and having subpoena power and being able to investigate this stuff. They'd rather be former officials than current officials when those investigations eventually come. I think in political science terms, that's what you'd suppose. I don't know if that's actually what's happening. They all have individual, personalized explanations for why they're leaving. But, um, this is the agency where people are fleeing the fastest, and the agency is a disaster, and I think they've got a lot-- a, a long list of impeachable offenses and, and really juicy investigations they're gonna be facing very quickly, including from the Jamie Raskin-led House Judiciary Committee, and he is no slouch.

Kara Swisher 39:33 No slouch. Hillary?

Hillary Rodham Clinton 39:34 You know, Rachel, let me just say, having read your book, which I highly recommend, I learned a lot, uh-

Rachel Maddow 39:41 Oh

Hillary Rodham Clinton 39:41 ... from reading it.

Rachel Maddow 39:41 Thank you.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 39:42 Uh, no, it, it, it... Some stories that I maybe knew vaguely, but you brought them to life, uh, as you, as you do. Um, I, I, I ended trying to think in my own mind, um, do you think that a Justice Department is scarier if it's been weaponized or if it's incompetent? Or in the case of this Justice Department, maybe both.

Rachel Maddow 40:12 It's a good question. That you get your... As, as you do, you are getting right to the heart of the book in the, in the first place. Um, the book is a look at the elements of the history of the Justice Department. It's not the entire history of the Justice Department, but moments in history where we've seen the Justice Department be terrible, um, be weaponized, be corrupt. Um, uh, we've seen it, the Justice Department use to support the interest of the most powerful and moneyed interests in the country against the people who the Justice Department ought to be protecting. Um, we've also seen it do some good things, you know, taking on the Klan at the formation of the Justice Department right after the Civil War. Um, some of the stuff it did during the Civil Rights era, um, not all, but some of it in, in the 1960s. So it's a, it's an incredibly mixed bag, but the thing that I think is unique now, there's so many stories about Trump where it's like, things were good, and then Trump got there, and now things are bad. That is not the story of the Justice Department [chuckles] . Things were really bad along the 150-year timeline of the Justice Department. What's different about Trump now is that I really do think that he has rendered it not only inept in a way that is very unfamiliar to everybody who has ever worked at the Justice Department or studied it, not only inept, but in some ways gone. I mean, the National Security Division is basically gone, Public Integrity Division, gone, Tax Division, gone. I mean, it's just, uh, dunzo, you know? It's, it's, it's been shut down. And that, I think, is, among everything else, it is ominous because I think Trump is a different type of cat. I think he has a different type of, um, goal for this country. I think he wants to rule in defiance of the Constitution. Um, I think he doesn't want the constitutional republic to persist, and I think that getting rid of the Justice Department, rather than using it as his weapon, um, is more, uh, the operative concern that he's been, he, that, that he's been using, rather than just trying to make them go away.

Kara Swisher 42:13 He wants it destroyed rather than operating. It can inco- Operating incompetently is like destroying it, correct? Presumably.

Rachel Maddow 42:20 I think we'll find out if they investigate and impeach Todd Blanche, right? The, the degree of incompetence that we've seen is stunning. I mean, we've got two different federal judges right now, one in Chicago, one in Washington, investigating Justice Department lawyers apparently lying overtly to federal judges in ways that judges are, you know, n- now acting on and could potentially disbar those folks. Their incompetence in terms of going after people like Cassidy Hutchinson and James Comey and, and Tish James and all, I mean, we've seen all of that. But getting rid of the Justice Department, essentially rendering it non-functional, is something that you would wanna do if you wanted to make sure there was no agency in government in charge of protecting the constitutional rights of the people of this country, and that's, that's, I think, the difference. It's not just turning it into a weapon, it's, it's ending it.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 43:06 Yeah, I just wanted to underscore that point because we're gonna see that as the Democrats begin their investigations, and we all hope their investigations are really disciplined, focused.

Rachel Maddow 43:19 And they're gonna be calling people who are gonna refuse to appear. They're gonna be then subpoenaing them. They're gonna be defying the subpoenas. They are then gonna be voting to hold those people in contempt, and they're going to then have to refer it to the Justice Department, which is going to do nothing. Um, so I, I think it's going to be very challenging in a lot of these investigations because when you find wrongdoing on the scale that I, I, I think is there, uh, across the board with the corruption and everything else, who do you go to? You go to the Justice Department, but how are we gonna go to this Justice Department? It is nonexistent in terms of the role it is supposed to play to protect, uh, the rule of law, our constitutional republic, uh, to work, uh, with the Congress to enforce, uh, their, uh, will. So I, I think we're gonna see a big crisis, um, within a couple of, uh, months.

Kara Swisher 44:16 Who then, uh, does that if there are subpoenas, or if they need to bring people in, et cetera? Will it be the Capitol Police?

Rachel Maddow 44:24 I mean, it depends on what the, what the end game is, right? Like f- one of the, um, bad attorneys general who I talk about in the book is this guy Harry Doherty. And, uh, Harry Doherty was wildly corrupt in terms of just personally taking bribes at the Justice Department, doing all sorts of terrible stuff. But the Justice Department under Harry Doherty also just stood by while the presidential administration at the time, um, was as wildly corrupt almost as what Trump and his family are doing. I mean, it was really, really, really bad. And the, the press and the Senate started investigating the corruption in the administration. And with Harry Doherty, they knew that they couldn't refer anything to him for prosecution 'cause he was part of it. I mean, he was like the, the... He was likely taking kickbacks for some of the worst stuff that they were investigating. So they appointed a special counsel to pursue the prosecutions. Um, but then they started investigating Harry Doherty himself, and that investigative power brought to light what Doherty and the Justice Department had been doing that was so bad, it resulted in Doherty being forced out of his job, and then once he was forced out of his job, he was ultimately indicted. And so, I mean, the, the sort of resolution of all of these things comes in lots of different ways, and ultimately it comes from, from the people. We just saw corruption as the number one issue for voters who voted in last week's election. I think it's really important to make that, uh, uh, point, uh, because there... The, the Congress is gonna have to get really, uh, creative, and your book, I think, uh, points to some ways of doing that, uh, that, you know, Jamie Raskin [chuckles] and others are going to find, uh, I think, quite enlightening. Uh, but I, I wanted to also underscore the heroes in your book because you do have some incredible stories about people who, uh, did what they were supposed to do, and one of the people you, uh, highlight is John Doar. And I actually worked for John Doar on the Nixon impeachment, uh, staff. So I was thrilled to see, uh, you giving him the, uh, attention you did as somebody who was, you know, a really rock-ribbed Republican who joined the Justice Department and became eventually close with, uh, Attorney General Bobby Kennedy. And he was so instrumental in standing up for the rule of law and standing up for the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act, and bringing, you know, to trial and successfully, uh, convicting, you know, murderers, uh, of, uh, you know, civil rights workers. So there's some really good stories in there because a lot of the people that I've known in the Justice Department over a long time, and I've had my own experiences, uh, as you know, with the Justice Department, were, were-

Kara Swisher 47:13 [chuckles]

Rachel Maddow 47:13 ... were really honorable public servants, um, who may not have been led well or may not have been listened to. I mean, what you write about Bill Barr is jaw-dropping.

Kara Swisher 47:24 Well, talk about that.

Rachel Maddow 47:26 In two administrations, you know, obfuscating, uh, the law, protecting the lawbreakers. It is just stunning. Uh, so I, I think it's important to take your book [chuckles] as almost an instruction manual, if you will, Rachel, about w- how we can get more good guys back in and deal with the wrongdoers.

Kara Swisher 47:45 Talk about that, because in a lot of your books, whether it was Japanese internment or before that, um, Prequel, you talk about heroes. There's always a hero, whether it was, uh, people in Los Angeles that were fighting, uh, the, uh, the white supremacists, et cetera. Uh, at the same time, they don't ha- Trump is in power, right? Uh, they, they, um, right now, uh, the Justice Department sued to block certification of Alaska's Senate race. Republican incumbent lost. A judge threw the case out and reportedly sent letters to about 20 Democrats, including a prominent elections lawyer, warning there might be targets of criminal investigation as we tape. Alaska's Senate race still isn't called. Um, y- you know, they sent monitors to 50 states, the first in American history, the Justice Department says it did, uh, et cetera. So w- talk about the heroes, what the heroes can do versus the blockers, and if you'd like to zero in on Bill Barr, by all means, do.

Rachel Maddow 48:36 [laughs] I mean, the, the thing that, um... I, I never, I didn't set out to do this, but, um, in the Japanese incarceration, um, podcast, Burn Order, in Prequel and Ultra about American fascism before World War II, in this book, I, I seem to have a theme which only emerges to me after I've done all the work. I d- I didn't set out to do it prospectively. Um, but the theme is that the, the heroes that you find are people who don't necessarily expect the fight that is coming to them. It is not necessarily the person who is the attorney general. It is not necessarily the person who is, who is, who is running for high-level office or the person who is, um, intending to be taking on a gigantic fight and then b- marshals everybody behind them and takes the Hill.

Kara Swisher 49:23 No, it's like the direct mail guy. It's the direct mail guy, for example.

Rachel Maddow 49:26 Yeah, in, in, in Prequel and in Ultra, it's the guy who has experience in direct mail and finds himself the world or, or the national expert on direct mail who can then Accidentally sort of prove that the Nazis are running this huge propaganda campaign in the United States through direct mail. And he... That's wh- It wasn't why he developed that expertise, but because he had it and his country needed him, when the fight came to him, he was ready. Similarly, like John Doar wasn't attorney general, uh, when he, when the Viola Liuzzo murder happened, and Louis Post, who's another hero in the book, he wasn't the attorney general, he wasn't even a cabinet secretary. He was a second-level official in the Department of Labor. But in all of these cases, when the fight came to them, these guys had the moral fortitude and the sort of ethical eyes on the horizon in terms of understanding what their role was and what the opportunity was to do the right thing, and they seized the moment and did what was right for the country, even though they weren't necessarily positioned in some hallowed leadership job to be able to do it.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 50:30 Right. Right.

Rachel Maddow 50:30 And it's sort of like, I, I talked to Chris Hayes on, on, on Sunday night in, in Washington about this, and he said, "A lot of people have a great man theory of history. You, Rachel, seem to have a, a, a good man theory [chuckles] of history," meaning good people in the right place at unexpected times can literally save the Republic, can do things that, um, move the country.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 50:51 Then what about here at this moment then?

Rachel Maddow 50:53 Well, I think that part of the reason I wanna tell these stories is because I want Americans broadly to have in mind stories of heroism for what it means to do the right thing when your country needs you. And whether that means you are a poll worker who's facing off against one of, um, these goons who the Justice Department has hired to be election watchers, they brought in all these election denialists to do it. Whether you are the lieutenant governor, the Republican lieutenant governor of Utah, who's having the voter rolls from your states subpoenaed by Justice Department for what appear to be totally improper purposes. Whether you are right now counting ballots, counting absentee and affidavit ballots, um, in one of the counties in Mississippi, and you're standing up against, um, efforts to try to make sure that people are, you know, that people are thrown off the rolls despite the fact that they deserve to have their vote counted. At every step of the process, good people are called on to do the right thing, even when it's, um, the, it's not gonna make them famous, it's not gonna be easy, uh, and it's not necessarily what they woke up knowing was gonna be the fight of their lives.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 51:54 And Bill Barr?

Rachel Maddow 51:55 Bill

Rachel Maddow 51:56 Barr, God bless him. [laughs]

Hillary Rodham Clinton 51:58 Maybe not.

Rachel Maddow 51:59 Part of the reason I, I wrote the book is because of how bad Bill Barr was in Trump's first term. I just think it's underappreciated, um, how much he messed up the Justice Department and turned it, turned the powers of the Justice Department inward to try to destroy the institution itself. I think Barr really, um, struck kind of the fatal blows, and then the Justice Department died in Trump's second term. But Barr deserves credit, I think, for the murder.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 52:25 You know, one of the, the good men that Barr set out to destroy was Bob Mueller. You know, I served with him when I was Secretary of State, and he was the FBI director. And talk about rectitude and honor, I mean, the man was just a paragon of what public service should look like. And he took on that assignment as a special counsel to investigate, uh, the connections between Trump and the Russians. And he, he did all he could within the writ that he was given because they, in my view, severely restricted the writ. And his report then was basically obstructed by Barr so that the real report, uh, that talked about all of the efforts by Trump and his allies to obstruct the investigation were an afterthought because Barr tried to characterize the report as finding nothing. So he really, not only in, uh, the end of the, uh, George H.W. Bush administration trying to cover up the Iran-Contra scandal and everything that went on there, then comes back for a reprise. In fact, as you point out, Rachel, he auditioned for it. He wanted to get in there and destroy the Justice Department's ability to actually investigate Trump and get to the truth about Russia and so much else.

Rachel Maddow 53:48 Yes, that's exactly right. And, and, and the way that Barr turned the powers of the Justice Department against FBI personnel and Justice Department personnel, he turned those powers inward to try to make sure, as you say, Hillary, to try to make sure that he... That the Justice Department would never be able to hold Trump to account, uh, would never be able to tell the truth about what was happening in the administration. That's just fatal. It's just fatal.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 54:12 So you're, you keep saying fatal, dead. Is it completely dead? That's the first thing. And then before the election, this could really kill it, but Trump said he'd consider broad preemptive pardons for administration officials and allies if Democrats go after him. He pointed to Biden's last-minute pardons as precedent. He specifically named Elon Musk, although Musk hasn't been charged with anything. And then he repeated his intentions on, uh, 60 Minutes. There is a twist that Hillary pointed out, someone who's been pardoned can't plead the fifth, which means they'll have to talk about it. But w- does this completely put a stake in the idea if presidents could do this? And then what happens next with the Justice Department? What is the, what is, where does it go from here? Because like right now, we were just talking about Jensen Huang. They're supposed to be investigating this stuff, so is the F- FBI, this Chinese interference. Y- And Trump is basically saying, "I don't care. I don't care if" ... And they never even told him it was a Chinese spy, according to Trump, uh, that he was sleeping with. So where does it go from here? And then especially with pardons as sort of the

Kara Swisher 55:12 The overlay to the entire thing

Rachel Maddow 55:15 They shut down the Public Integrity section at the Justice Department. They shut down the Public and Corruption unit at the FBI. They've shut down the f- foreign influence, um, uh, essentially policing operations inside the FBI and the Justice Department. They shut all of this stuff down, and so, I mean, the one thing that does is clarify, well, that means the Congress must investigate it, because the cops have essentially signed off. The, the cops are, the cops are not working this beat anymore, and so to the extent that we need to protect ourselves in national security terms, somebody else needs to step up, and that has to be the Congress, so I think that's clarifying. In terms of pardons, I mean, the president has pardon power. That is clear as day in the Constitution, um, and, and he can do that, but, uh, Secretary Clinton is right that there is no, um, there's no escaping, um, other forms of investigation, even if you have been pardoned in terms of federal prosecution. Um, it certainly wouldn't protect Todd Blanche from impeachment or any other Senate-confirmed official in any cabinet agency from the threat of impeachment, and impeachment comes with it investigation. And then there's also the prospect, and to the, to the certain- to the extent that some of this is just breaking criminal law, the states could prosecute it, and you can't plead the Fifth. And b- again, though, I, I do think that if we're, if we're realistic about the end game, the most important thing about corruption is that it be, A, stopped, and B, exposed, and exposure of it should righteously open people up to prosecution, but even if it doesn't, it exposes it to the American people, and the American people have very, very strong views about corruption. There's all this cynical stuff that, like, people don't care about the grift and people don't care about the thieving and the corruption.

Kara Swisher 56:58 Yes, they do.

Rachel Maddow 56:58 People absolutely do, because people know it's their own-

Kara Swisher 57:00 Yeah

Rachel Maddow 57:00 ... pockets being picked.

Kara Swisher 57:01 Right, right.

Rachel Maddow 57:01 And people don't like to be insulted and made chumps, made into chumps-

Kara Swisher 57:04 Right

Rachel Maddow 57:04 ... and patsies.

Kara Swisher 57:05 Yeah.

Rachel Maddow 57:05 And so the exposure of it comes from investigating it, and that itself, I think, is a, a lot of what's, a, a lot of what's ahead and a lot of what ought to be ahead.

Kara Swisher 57:15 All right, Madam Secretary, one more quick break. We'll be back for more with Rachel Maddow. Welcome back. Madam Secretary and I are here with the legendary Rachel Maddow, author of the new book, Department of Fate: The Promise, the Power, and the Collapse of America's Most Consequential Institution.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 57:31 Well, we've talked a little bit about this, Rachel,

Hillary Rodham Clinton 57:33 but I, I would like to hear you give us, uh, some historical perspective, uh, because we have faced these choices before, whether to hold an administration accountable or to move on. Uh, Ford pardoned Nixon. Uh, Bush pardoned, uh, the Iran-Contra defendants on literally his way out the door. Uh, Obama decided not to prosecute, uh, Bush officials over the CIA's use of torture, saying the country should look forward, not backward. Um, so when the country chooses to move on, um, does it work? And, you know, what precedent should Democrats follow now? Because, uh, we're facing corruption on such an unprecedented level that moving on doesn't seem like it is even feasible, because we've got to come to grips and understand what happened in order to repair the damage.

Rachel Maddow 58:31 Right now, it just feels like a crime in progress that has to be stopped. Like, the robbery is still happening. Um, the State Department awarding of the new testing program for Ebola and other infectious diseases in Africa was just given to a company whose previous experience involves nothing with Ebola and nothing in Africa. They did have massage chairs and chakra beds in airport mini spas, but the company that's got the Ebola contract, uh, uh, which has no qualifications for it whatsoever, just happens to have just been invested in by Don Jr. and Eric Trump. So this is... The, the corruption stuff, the, the theft, the, the kleptocracy element of this [laughs] experience that we're having right now, um, is in progress, and so part of the... I mean, the, the moving on question, I feel like is a, a little bit about, like, what's happened in the past, but this stuff is still going on and must be stopped. And if the Justice Department won't stop it, well, that's part of the problem at the Justice Department, but that also means that the Congress has to step up, has to do it, has to expose it, and the press does, too.

Kara Swisher 59:38 So, so speaking of the press, we learned that the federal prosecutors told a judge they'd consider charging The New York Times as co-conspirator in their leak case against James Comey, Hillary's favorite person, who she's gonna forgive, right, Hillary? Okay.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 59:49 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 59:50 That... [laughs] We just talked about forgiveness a second ago.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 59:52 Yeah, I, I... Talk about forgiveness, man.

Kara Swisher 59:54 Yeah.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 59:54 It's hard.

Kara Swisher 59:54 Yeah, yeah, you don't have to. It's okay. That came on top of FBI agents searching The Washington Post reporter's home, a grand jury subpoenas to The Times, The Post, The Wall Street Journal. Is it enough to have Democratic Congress help the press here, or is the... Are, y- you know, the Justice Department is, seems to be targeting the press.

Rachel Maddow 1:00:11 Yeah, and I, I, I mean, to me, it just is, it just reeks of desperation. It just is such a sign of weakness. I mean, you know, Pete Hegseth, before he gave his most recent, um, jeremiad, had his security officers in the Pentagon press room physically threaten the reporters in that room before he started speaking, that they would be physically removed if they'd, you know, violated decorum or something. Like, what, what, what is... Like, are... Oh, you scared? Are you scared?

Kara Swisher 1:00:41 [laughs] Mm-hmm.

Rachel Maddow 1:00:41 Are you guys scared?

Kara Swisher 1:00:42 He is.

Rachel Maddow 1:00:42 It just is such a sign of, of pathetic weakness, and I think that's mostly how it's seen. I also think that, um, the press is... We're good at advocating for our own Um, for our own interests, and we've got good lawyers, and we've got the law on our side, and screw them. I, I just don't, I don't... I, I do worry about it because I do think they're coming for all of us, but I also think that they, the fact that they are shows what pitiful, what a pitiful position they're in.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 1:01:06 How do you build a, a just, a Justice Department that someone like Trump can't, the next Trump can't break?

Rachel Maddow 1:01:12 I do think we have to stop the crime in progress. I do really think that Todd Blanche should be impeached. Um, I think the Justice Department needs to stop doing some of the harm that it's doing right now in its diminished state, but I also think that we should see its diminished state as an opportunity, 'cause it needs to be refounded. It needs to be reformed and restructured in a way that, um, doesn't allow for another Bill Barr or another Todd Blanche to be there. If you've ever been a personal lawyer or a campaign worker for a, a president, you shouldn't be allowed to be in high position at the Justice Department. We should have higher, I think, Senate confirmation thresholds for people who wanna get into high-ranking positions in the Justice Department. I think the inspector general should have, um, stronger subpoena power, including for former officials there. Like, I just... We just need to treat the Justice Department as important a- a- as, as an institution as important as it really is, which I think is uniquely important, and it should be almost a semi-independent agency along the lines of the Fed, um, in terms of how well it's insulated from political pressure. It just... What we did after Watergate turns out wasn't enough, and so we need to triple down on that kind of protection.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 1:02:19 In your reporting, have you heard any stories about documents being destroyed, the kind of protective, unlawful behavior that we've come to expect from this administration in the Justice Department?

Kara Swisher 1:02:32 Yeah, a burn order, Rachel, is the term.

Rachel Maddow 1:02:34 A burn, [laughs] is there a burn order exactly for the, uh, for the incriminating report that they don't want the court to get a handle of? Um, we have heard some of that, um, broadly in terms of the administration's MO. Obviously, Signalgate, for all the embarrassment about having included accidentally the editor of The Atlantic on the text chain about s- sensitive war plans, um, that was... The fact that they were using Signal was obviously, um, a means to avoid the, the, the re- the, the, the legal requirement to preserve their records. We also have some brand-new reporting at MS now about, um, the Pentagon, the, the, the way they structured their sort of workflow around Pete Hegseth illegally dipping into the promotion lists for military officers to purge non-white and female officers off those lists, and they appear to have, uh, op- they have done, done that where they were doing, you know, no electronic communications about it, phone calls only, no emails, no texts, paper files only that were destroyed and were not officially retained. Uh, so, so we are seeing some efforts to, to cover up their tracks as they go.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 1:03:43 And Rachel, what about the Epstein files? Are we ever gonna get them all?

Rachel Maddow 1:03:46 The Epstein files is, um, a story that has only begun being told. I personally believe, in thinking about the impeachment of Todd Blanche, that a good place to start is his meeting with Ghislaine Maxwell, with Jeffrey Epstein's co-conspirator in his child sex trafficking ring, and him meeting with Ghislaine Maxwell, and then immediately thereafter, her getting put, moved to a minimum security facility, which she was not, because of the classification of her offenses, is not legally allowed to be in. Um, they tried to pass that off as a normal decision by the Bureau of Prisons, just a coincidence. If you start there, um, with, with Blanche personally and his intervention in the Epstein case, in what appears to be an effort to shield the president, and you could then go into what they didn't release from the Epstein files and what Blanche said about what wasn't in them, which we then learned wasn't true, and the way that they redacted potential co-conspirators. I mean, the, Robert Garcia is on that like a dog on a bone, and I think we are gonna get to the bottom of that, and I think that's a good a place to start with the Blanche investigations as any.

Kara Swisher 1:04:49 Well, excellent. Rachel's book is Department of Faith: The Promise, the Power and the Collapse of America's Most Consequential Institution. It's out now. You can see her Mondays, obviously, 9:00 PM Eastern on The Rachel Maddow Show on MS now. Rachel will be meeting later in the clearing to do our spells, okay?

Rachel Maddow 1:05:05 Yes.

Kara Swisher 1:05:05 Later tonight when the moon is full, okay?

Rachel Maddow 1:05:07 Hocus Pocus 3-

Kara Swisher 1:05:08 Hocus P- 3 [laughs]

Rachel Maddow 1:05:08 ... starring Hillary Clinton, Kara Swisher, and Rachel Maddow. That's right.

Kara Swisher 1:05:12 Anyway, read her books. Her books are amazing. Actually, listen to them, 'cause I love hear- hearing you, uh, uh, tell the stories. Amazing histor- You're a history wonk. People don't realize that. Um, but it's a really important book for this moment, and we appreciate it.

Rachel Maddow 1:05:24 You guys are awesome. Thank you so much.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 1:05:25 Thanks for writing it.

Rachel Maddow 1:05:26 Thank you, thank you, thank you both. Thank you so much.

Kara Swisher 1:05:28 Well, Hillary, this has been an action-packed show. Wow.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 1:05:31 Wow, I'm exhausted.

Kara Swisher 1:05:32 We've done our first interview. We decided on our coven. Anyway, everyone, thank you for listening. We'll be back next Wednesday with more Hillary, more cowbell.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 1:05:42 Who knows what's gonna happen next?

Kara Swisher 1:05:43 We'll figure it out. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman and Madeline LaPlante Duby. Our editors are Manolo Moreno and Brandon McFarlane. Rosemary Ho provided the fact-checking. We can't tell you what Nick Merrill was in charge of because it's classified.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 1:05:57 Thanks also to Art Chung, Abby Crinsky, Joe Nebris, Renee Betterson, and Ana Casey. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to High Stakes from Vox Media, the podcast from hell.

Kara Swisher 1:06:16 We'll be back next week. [upbeat music]