High Stakes with HRC: The Blue Tsunami Episode

Kara Swisher 0:00 You look great in blue, I'll tell you.

Hillary Clinton 0:02 I'm loving my blue wave outfit. [upbeat music]

Kara Swisher 0:06 Hi, everyone, I'm Kara Swisher.

Hillary Clinton 0:08 And I'm Hillary Clinton.

Kara Swisher 0:10 And welcome back to High Stakes from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. Are we doing the glasses today, Hillary? We are.

Hillary Clinton 0:16 Well, I think we should start with them because it's such a special occasion.

Kara Swisher 0:19 Yes. Explain.

Hillary Clinton 0:20 And I actually have a pair of blue, I mean, really, really blue sunglasses.

Kara Swisher 0:25 Wow, where'd you get them?

Hillary Clinton 0:26 Oh my gosh, I've had them probably since before you were born.

Kara Swisher 0:29 Oh, I get.

Hillary Clinton 0:29 I've had them a really long time. [laughs]

Kara Swisher 0:30 You've had a long time. Well, let me just say, the reason you're wearing those blue glasses, and you're wearing a blue coat, and I'm wearing a blue sweater, uh, when you joined us on the first night of Pivot Tour on Monday, you said we were gonna wake up, uh, to a Democratic House and a Democratic Senate. You called it, uh, "So, Madam Secretary, has the pussy finally grabbed back?"

Hillary Clinton 0:50 [laughs] With all claws.

Kara Swisher 0:53 All claws. [laughs]

Hillary Clinton 0:54 I mean, we are so ready, uh, to get this show on the road.

Kara Swisher 0:58 We have a lot to get to, but give me your top level thoughts, your, your initial top level thoughts.

Hillary Clinton 1:04 This is a total rebuke of Donald Trump and his cult and the many wrong-headed evil policies that he's inflicted on us and the world.

Kara Swisher 1:16 Mm-hmm.

Hillary Clinton 1:16 But it's also a real tribute to Democratic candidates and the campaigns they ran and how strong they were on the main issues of affordability and corruption, so I, I am thrilled on both counts. I think we had to finally lift the poisonous cloud that Trump has put over our heads for the last, uh, 10 long years.

Kara Swisher 1:38 Mm-hmm.

Hillary Clinton 1:38 But we also now have a new crop of very exciting, uh, public servants from, you know, state legislatures and state houses, uh, to the Congress.

Kara Swisher 1:49 Mm-hmm. And you're in a lot of the memes. These AI videos have been all over the internet, and of, of Democrats singing and dancing. I'm gonna play one where I think you look great.

Hillary Clinton 1:58 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 1:58 And you're a good dancer, Hillary.

Hillary Clinton 1:59 [laughs]

Speaker 2:01 Damn, baby, all I need is a little bit.

Kara Swisher 2:03 [laughs]

Speaker 2:04 A little bit of this, a little bit of that.

Hillary Clinton 2:06 I think we should take that on the road.

Kara Swisher 2:08 There's a lot of them, and they were trying to make fun of you at first-

Hillary Clinton 2:11 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 2:11 ... but now they're cele- Do you mind AI, your AI slop that you get everywhere?

Hillary Clinton 2:16 You know, I, I have seen a lot of them, and more have been sent to me.

Kara Swisher 2:18 Uh-huh.

Hillary Clinton 2:19 And I get a big kick out of it. It's one of the few good uses so far that I've seen AI put to, so I'm all, I'm all in favor.

Kara Swisher 2:27 So I want to set the scene for us. What is a watch party like at the Clinton House? Where were you on election night? K- Scott and I, I will say, were in Canada, and we were seeking asylum in case it didn't go our way.

Hillary Clinton 2:37 [laughs] I hope you got that.

Kara Swisher 2:37 So we were all set. We got... No, we did, but we didn't need it, 'cause we then flew back to the US, and it was a completely different United States.

Hillary Clinton 2:44 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 2:44 Because we were on stage. The only thing we had heard that was Jon Ossoff, Hotlanta, had won early. What happened with you?

Hillary Clinton 2:51 Well, it, we are both really superstitious, so we were invited to a bunch of watch parties, uh, in New York, and we respectfully declined-

Kara Swisher 3:00 Mm-hmm

Hillary Clinton 3:00 ... so that we could stay together and watch the television and pace around and call people and get texts and emails and cheer and hold our, our fingers and our, our toes crossed as tightly as we could.

Kara Swisher 3:13 Just, just you.

Hillary Clinton 3:14 I mean, that's what-

Kara Swisher 3:14 And I'm assuming it's you and your husband, Bill Clinton, right?

Hillary Clinton 3:16 Yeah, me and, me and Bill. That's it.

Kara Swisher 3:17 Yeah. Yeah.

Hillary Clinton 3:18 We, we are our own watch party.

Kara Swisher 3:20 Mm-hmm.

Hillary Clinton 3:20 We've been doing this [laughs] for a very long time. I am somebody who, if it looks like the numbers are going down, I leave the room temporarily because I think it'll, you know, make the b- the numbers better, and then I'll come back, or I'll yell to Bill, "Are we getting, you know, are we getting back into better territory?"

Kara Swisher 3:36 Like a horror movie, right?

Hillary Clinton 3:37 Yeah, like a hor-

Kara Swisher 3:38 Yeah

Hillary Clinton 3:38 ... like exactly a horror movie.

Kara Swisher 3:39 Right.

Hillary Clinton 3:39 I don't wanna watch any horror movies. I've seen so many.

Kara Swisher 3:41 Yes. So who, who are you texting with?

Hillary Clinton 3:43 You know, we're texting with our friends. We're texting with, you know, people we know who are counting the numbers, looking at the data. We are constantly, and Bill especially, is trying to get every number he can get, you know, calling people, "What does this mean? Where, where are these votes coming from?" He went down to Mississippi to campaign, uh, for that fabulous candidate who, fingers crossed, is gonna be the next senator, Scott Colome. He went down on Friday. They asked him to come Friday and kind of be a closer. He went to Tupelo-

Kara Swisher 4:12 Mm-hmm

Hillary Clinton 4:12 ... the birthplace of Elvis Presley.

Kara Swisher 4:14 Of course.

Hillary Clinton 4:14 So it was quite-

Kara Swisher 4:15 As the right people know.

Hillary Clinton 4:16 100%.

Kara Swisher 4:17 Yes.

Hillary Clinton 4:17 It was quite the event.

Kara Swisher 4:18 Mm-hmm.

Hillary Clinton 4:18 And so, you know, he was... You know, Carville was there with him. He's like, "Where's the, where's the vote coming in from? Have... You know, are these from, uh, you know, Oxford and Jackson? Are they from the country?" It, it-

Kara Swisher 4:30 Mm-hmm

Hillary Clinton 4:30 ... it just is exciting-

Kara Swisher 4:31 Mm-hmm

Hillary Clinton 4:31 ... because we know so many of the people running, and we're cheering them on.

Kara Swisher 4:36 Mm-hmm.

Hillary Clinton 4:37 And last, you know, last Tuesday night was, it made up for a lot of sadder nights, uh-

Kara Swisher 4:41 Yeah. W- what-

Hillary Clinton 4:42 ... over the last years

Kara Swisher 4:43 ... when did you realize it was truly a blue wave? Because you, as you say, you've been on the other end of a, "I thought I was winning, and then I was not winning."

Hillary Clinton 4:49 Yes.

Kara Swisher 4:49 Like, and that kind of thing.

Hillary Clinton 4:50 Yes.

Kara Swisher 4:50 So when did, what point did you realize? What was the, what was the... Was it Lauren Boebert's in trouble?

Hillary Clinton 4:55 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 4:56 Was it, uh, was it... [laughs]

Hillary Clinton 4:58 Let's have a moment. Ah, Max Miller. [laughs]

Kara Swisher 5:01 [laughs] Oh, there's so many ha ha ha's. Um-

Hillary Clinton 5:04 Yeah, it was at-

Kara Swisher 5:04 Where did you realize?

Hillary Clinton 5:05 It was, like, around 11-

Kara Swisher 5:07 Mm-hmm

Hillary Clinton 5:07 ... and some of the early races were being called.

Kara Swisher 5:10 Mm-hmm.

Hillary Clinton 5:10 Obviously, um, as you said, Jon Ossoff was among the very first. Uh, Josh Shapiro was called early.

Kara Swisher 5:17 That was not a surprise.

Hillary Clinton 5:18 Jamie Pritzker. But, you know-

Kara Swisher 5:19 No

Hillary Clinton 5:19 ... they were all expected.

Kara Swisher 5:20 Mm-hmm.

Hillary Clinton 5:21 Um, and so part of it was holding on, and I, I have to say, I mean, uh, even though it was really trending in our direction, you know, I had done a lot of work over the last year on protecting our elections. And as late as Sunday, I was talking to, you know, Congressman Joe Morelle and who-

Kara Swisher 5:42 Mm-hmm

Hillary Clinton 5:42 ... uh, the next speaker, Hakeem Jeffries, put in charge of protecting elections. Sunday morning, we were kinda going over, "Well, what'll happen if this happens, and are we ready?" And so I was waiting for some other giant shoe to drop.

Kara Swisher 5:54 Right.

Hillary Clinton 5:54 I kept thinking, "Wait, this is going too well."

Kara Swisher 5:57 Truth. I-

Hillary Clinton 5:58 And that made me very nervous

Kara Swisher 5:59 ... I, yeah. What was the, the race? For me, it was, it, it was Keisha Lance Bottoms. That-

Hillary Clinton 6:03 Yes

Kara Swisher 6:03 ... that I was like, "Whoa, wait a minute."

Hillary Clinton 6:05 Yes.

Kara Swisher 6:06 And, and I, I thought Talarico would win. Uh, uh, the, and, and Gina Hinojosa, when she was way ahead, that was like that, those two-

Hillary Clinton 6:14 And Annie Andrews in South Carolina

Kara Swisher 6:15 ... And Annie Andrews, right, yeah.

Hillary Clinton 6:16 That was a big one.

Kara Swisher 6:17 Yeah, yeah. But there w- to me it was, uh, w- was the Georgia races-

Hillary Clinton 6:21 Yeah

Kara Swisher 6:21 ... watching all the Georgia races come in, uh, the way they did, and so overwhelmingly, um, which was really as-

Hillary Clinton 6:27 You know, Kara, I assume you know this-

Kara Swisher 6:29 Yeah

Hillary Clinton 6:29 ... but I'm not sure all of the listeners and viewers do. But, you know-

Kara Swisher 6:33 Yeah

Hillary Clinton 6:33 ... Keisha Lance Bottoms, who is a friend of mine, I did a fundraiser for her-

Kara Swisher 6:37 Yeah

Hillary Clinton 6:37 ... I think she's terrific. She is a great-great granddaughter of a slave.

Kara Swisher 6:42 That's right.

Hillary Clinton 6:44 And in the election coverage in The Atlanta Constitution, I think it led with the fact that-

Kara Swisher 6:50 Mm-hmm

Hillary Clinton 6:51 ... in the census, uh, there was the record of her great-great-grandfather and who he was owned by-

Kara Swisher 6:57 Mm-hmm

Hillary Clinton 6:57 ... uh, back in the, you know, Confederacy.

Kara Swisher 7:00 Mm-hmm.

Hillary Clinton 7:00 Uh, and to think about where we are today with her becoming governor of Georgia-

Kara Swisher 7:04 Mm-hmm

Hillary Clinton 7:05 ... it just gives me such goosebumps. I-

Kara Swisher 7:07 And her dad was an amazing singer, too. Um-

Hillary Clinton 7:09 Yeah, yeah

Kara Swisher 7:09 ... so, uh, there was a lot of firsts. You're talking about this. Minnesota sent the first Native woman to the Senate.

Hillary Clinton 7:15 Right.

Kara Swisher 7:15 I, I, I was with Amy Klobuchar last night, who's the new governor. I think she's the first woman governor of the state.

Hillary Clinton 7:21 I think that's right, yes.

Kara Swisher 7:22 Uh, she said that, um, New Hampshire elected the first openly gay man to the Senate.

Hillary Clinton 7:26 Right.

Kara Swisher 7:26 Uh, Georgia, as you said, elected its first woman governor in the entire nations, which I cannot believe this, first Black woman governor. Abdul El-Sayed became the first Muslim elected to the US Senate. It's like, it's an astonishing situation here. How do you look at that? 'Cause it's... Again, it was across the board, whether it was Kansas, Iowa, and now Mississippi, of course. Um, Montana, they have one representative, is that correct? And he, he, he won himself. He's a, he's a kind of a dreamy firefighter guy. Uh, how do you look at that? 'Cause diversity was sort of a dirty word, diversity, equity, and inclusion.

Hillary Clinton 8:03 Yeah, well, it roared back on election night-

Kara Swisher 8:05 Mm-hmm

Hillary Clinton 8:05 ... because this was, I, I think it's absolutely fair to say, the most diverse slate of candidates we've ever elected in such a moment as this. And people who were proud of who they were, people like, you know, Chris Pappas, who called his husband up on stage, uh, you know, uh, y- you just saw the diversity of America, and you saw how exciting it is to have people represent us who really understand, uh, not just a narrow, tiny slice of the top 1/10th of 1%, uh, the ballroom people, but you know, America, writ large, across our beautiful, diverse country. I, I was thrilled. And the more I look at the results and the more that, you know, results are finally coming in, 'cause not every election yet has been called, uh-

Kara Swisher 8:55 It's Mississippi and Alaska are the two big ones standing

Hillary Clinton 8:57 ... yeah, Alaska, Mississippi. There are some races in California, 'cause, you know, they, they have a lot of votes to count and it takes them a while. But, you know, really the message has to be that... A- and I think Jon Ossoff or, or James Talarico, maybe both of them, you know, said, "E pluribus unum," you know? Out of many, one. We are one nation under God, indivisible, and look at the people, uh, that have been chosen to represent us.

Kara Swisher 9:22 Yeah, now one of the things you pointed out, I noticed you were on... I follow you on social media, in case you're interested. Um, uh, you wrote about all the women, uh, that-

Hillary Clinton 9:30 Right

Kara Swisher 9:30 ... uh, Georgia, for example, all over the map.

Hillary Clinton 9:33 At least 17 women were elected to lead states as governors. That means one-third of all states are now run by women. And it was a huge night for Democratic women in the House. Uh, there are now over 100 women Democratic representatives. That beats the previous party record of, uh, 95. And, you know, I could not be happier, and a lot of these women are women that I know, that, uh, some of them worked in my campaigns. I mean, I am thrilled.

Kara Swisher 10:03 Yeah, 100 women Democratic representatives. Um, let me... Uh, this speech you gave, do you remember this speech, the glass ceiling? Would you mind reading this? 'Cause after losing the Democratic presidential primary to Barack Obama, read what you wrote.

Hillary Clinton 10:16 "Although we were not able to shatter that highest and hardest glass ceiling this year, thanks to you, it has 18 million cracks in it, and the light is shining through like never before, filling us all with the hope and the sure knowledge that the path will be a little easier next time, and we are going to keep working to make it so. Today, keep with me and stand for me. We still have so much to do together. We made history, and let's make some more."

Kara Swisher 10:49 That speech made m- me cry when, when you did it. Like, and, and it was sort of like you still spun it forward versus, "Oh, poor me," like what Susan Collins right now is doing in Maine in her recent interview.

Hillary Clinton 11:01 Well, I, you know, I really remember that moment as a very emotional one, obviously. Um, but also I wanted to encourage other women, uh, to get into politics, to get into the arena, make it possible for, you know, us to break that glass ceiling. Uh, we had 18 million cracks in it, but it hadn't shattered, and I'm f- so gratified, really, about the numbers of women who have called me, who come up to see me, who thank me for, you know, doing what I did, but also to continue myself to encourage them and to stay involved. Because, you know, you can't y- you can't walk away, um-

Kara Swisher 11:47 Once you lose, right, yeah, you lose

Hillary Clinton 11:48 ... if you, if you really believe in what you're saying-

Kara Swisher 11:51 Mm-hmm

Hillary Clinton 11:51 ... if it's not just a performance-

Kara Swisher 11:52 Yeah

Hillary Clinton 11:52 ... and you really care about- Uh, the country and what's gonna happen to us, you know, you gotta stay, uh, and fight for your values, and fighting for what's right is always worth it.

Kara Swisher 12:02 Yeah, what's interesting is a lot of people wanted you to say, take some credit for it, which y- and Stacey Abrams is another person who was very early. There's a lot of people who fought, did not win necessarily, but sort of blazed the trail. Um, when you were m- making that speech at the same time, I, I'm, I'd imagine I wouldn't have been able to make that speech. I'd have been, "You fuckers. How come you didn't vote for me?" That kind of thing. I don't know. I don't know how you managed to do that.

Hillary Clinton 12:27 I wanna give a shout-out to a- uh, to Stacey Abrams because-

Kara Swisher 12:31 Yeah

Hillary Clinton 12:31 ... I don't think we would've had the results-

Kara Swisher 12:33 In Georgia

Hillary Clinton 12:34 ... in the first place-

Kara Swisher 12:35 Yeah

Hillary Clinton 12:35 ... of electing, uh, Jon Ossoff and Raphael Warnock if it hadn't been for the organizing that Stacey did. And although she didn't win her election, um, she laid the groundwork through a lot of, uh, organizing for what came next, including, you know, Jon and Keisha this year. She also was organizing in Mississippi, which is her, uh, home state, uh, where she grew up. So I, I, I view politics as a, as a kind of endless relay race, and, you know, you run your race and you pass off that baton, and you wanna pass it off to a runner who's really ready to just go full out to try to win. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, but then that runner has an obligation to pass on the baton, and I think we've seen a lot of that. Beto O- O'Rourke in Texas, you know? He ran a campaign that fell short, but he never stopped, you know, speaking out, organizing. He was with Gina on the campaign trail. You know, so the people-

Kara Swisher 13:35 And Wendy we- the state senator, Wendy, um, in Texas also-

Hillary Clinton 13:39 Yes

Kara Swisher 13:40 ... was part of-

Hillary Clinton 13:40 Yeah

Kara Swisher 13:40 ... Gina H- Hinojosa.

Hillary Clinton 13:41 Exactly.

Kara Swisher 13:42 Yeah.

Hillary Clinton 13:42 And, and Wendy Davis, I mean-

Kara Swisher 13:44 Davis, right

Hillary Clinton 13:44 ... yeah, 100%. And so people who really understand what's at stake, not just, you know, I wanna run, and, you know, hooray for me or poor me, depending upon the outcome. But no, I wanna be part of this relay race. I wanna be part of the foundation that builds a better future. I just really think that we had a lot of candidates running this time who understood that, Kara. Uh, and, and they got out there against the odds because who knew that this was gonna happen? I mean, a year ago-

Kara Swisher 14:13 Yeah, in Mississippi, for example, the-

Hillary Clinton 14:14 When they started running, uh, a lot of them-

Kara Swisher 14:16 Yeah

Hillary Clinton 14:16 ... had no idea this would be as big a-

Kara Swisher 14:18 Mm-hmm

Hillary Clinton 14:19 ... a victory.

Kara Swisher 14:20 Yeah, absolutely not. Now, one of the, one of the things is this idea of relay race. I wanna play a clip that's going viral. It's of Abdul El-Sayed talking about the impact a word from your husband had on his political career. It was his college graduation in 2007 where he was valedictorian, and President Clinton was the commencement speaker. So let's listen to Abdul.

Speaker 14:41 I give my speech. President Clinton gives his speech. He, he, like, praises me in his speech. It was a real honor. Gets my dad to clap for me for the first time. I didn't even see it. He was in the audience. My parents told me, like, my, my, uh, siblings told me about it afterwards. But after the speech, President Clinton comes up to me. He's like, "Son, you know, why are you going to medical school?" Which is not a question people ask you when you're going to medical school. I'm like, "Uh, brown and Muslim, it's what we do." Um, but also, I, I love people. I love science.

Hillary Clinton 15:04 That's hilarious.

Speaker 15:04 I wanna serve. And he said, "That's great, but you got a gift for communicating, and maybe someday you'll run for office."

Kara Swisher 15:10 Amazing.

Hillary Clinton 15:10 Yeah, Bill remem- remembered that, but that's kind of shows you what we mean by the relay race. My husband spotted talent, went out of his way to say something, uh, to him. Whether it was encouraging or not, we never could've known. All these years later, what, 19 years later? Uh, it's something that the next senator from Michigan is talking about. It's that kind of commitment to the, you know, the service that I think should be at the forefront of what we're celebrating this, uh, election outcome. Now, you know, I have to say, Kara, the, [laughs] the hard work starts now. As tough as the election was, uh, now people have to govern, and that means they've gotta put points on the board that actually respond to what people were voting for on affordability and, uh, corruption.

Kara Swisher 15:58 Yeah, we're gonna be talking about that next. When we get back, uh, we'll talk about some of the biggest surprises and where we go next. [gentle music] Support for this show comes from Alloy Health. Shorter lashes, thinner brows, a hair part that keeps getting wider, and more strands in the shower than seems possible. A lot of women don't connect this loss to their hormones, nor do they know it's actually treatable. If you're looking for a solution, you can find the treatment you need from Alloy. Almost 40% of women experience hair loss in menopause, so Alloy offers oral medications to treat female hair loss. You can start seeing thicker, fuller hair within three to six months. It's a complete solution for your scalp, lashes, and brows, and it's prescribed by doctors who specialize in exactly this. And you can get it delivered to your door, no insurance calls or trips to the pharmacy. With Alloy, your best hair isn't behind you. Visit myalloy.com and use the code ONWITHKARA to get 20% off your first order. Your menopause-specialized doctor will tailor your care to your needs, plus you get $0 unlimited messaging with your doctor. That's M-Y A-L-L-O-Y.com with the code ONWITHKARA to get 20% off your first order. This code is valid on products only. Madam Secretary, we're back. I know you were cautiously optimistic, but the results were better than a lot of us could even hope for. So far, uh, as we've noted, Democrats flipped seven Senate seats and possibly more. Voters ousted Susan Collins out after 30 years. Uh, Texas elected its first Democratic governor since 1990. Go through some of the biggest surprises for you.

Hillary Clinton 17:36 Well, let's start with the down-ballot races because I think we also flipped maybe 10, 11 state legislatures-

Kara Swisher 17:44 Critical, yeah

Hillary Clinton 17:44 ... both because we took majority, but we also broke super majorities in, uh, a lot of places. We had margins that were shocking. If you had asked me Three months ago, would we win by that kind of margin in Georgia or Texas? Uh, would we win South Carolina? I mean, those were reaches. Those were not in the original, you know, pool of people that we thought could win. There were some races, uh, particularly, uh, for Congress, where the Democrat was outspent 10, 20, 30, sometimes 50 to 1. There's a race in North Carolina, uh, of a young woman who, you know, seven years ago was homeless. I think she spent $50,000 against $2 million, and she, you know, she came to victory. Now, some of it, I think you have to attribute to the quality, the perseverance, the, the gutsiness of all-

Kara Swisher 18:44 Of the candidate

Hillary Clinton 18:44 ... all of the candidates. But s- but some of it is because there was a wave against Trump. And when you look at what Trump did in this campaign, he, he literally refused to take responsibility for the Iran war and the rise in costs to the, uh, effects of the tariffs on people's cost of living. He just refused to admit that anything he has done for the last now nearly two years had any impact. And his closing argument was standing in front of the Reflecting Pool, one of the biggest failures of the, uh, administration. And then yesterday, after the election, he was talking about the ballroom and everything he is building. He's not only lost the plot of being president, but the gears are slipping. We, we're-

Kara Swisher 19:36 It's where he's comfortable. It's where he's comfortable talking.

Hillary Clinton 19:39 It's all he c- He, he can't get out of his comfort zone. And, and look at the money that was spent. That's the other thing. Usually, if you are spending nearly $500 million, as Elon Musk did, you expect something for that money.

Kara Swisher 19:51 Right.

Hillary Clinton 19:51 And they were shut out.

Kara Swisher 19:53 They-

Hillary Clinton 19:53 They did not win any of the races.

Kara Swisher 19:55 Wh- why, why is that? Is it 'cause the corruption message, it was attached to the corruption message? And why did it work this time? 'Cause everybody, you know, thinks politics are corrupt. That's not a new, fresh idea. But was it the money that made it feel even more corrupt 'cause it was so massive? Or-- And then it looked like there's no reason you're spending that much money without wanting something.

Hillary Clinton 20:13 I think it was all of the above. I, I think i- in a way, the publicity about Trump and his family and his, uh, associates making so much money finally broke through because it was undeniable. He actually had to write it down in his, uh, financial disclosure form. It was also because data centers really woke people up about the larger challenges that, uh, tech poses, and Elon was the poster boy of abusing, uh, his position, uh, throwing his money around, and, and finally, it just sunk in on people. But the other point I wanted to add, Kara, is the real template for doing this came from the election in Hungary, uh, earlier this year. Because there'd been a lot of efforts to defeat Orbán, uh, over the last 10 years, which had-

Kara Swisher 21:07 Yep

Hillary Clinton 21:07 ... failed.

Kara Swisher 21:08 Right.

Hillary Clinton 21:08 But what Peter Magyar, who led the opposition and eventually won, figured out is he had to link the corruption to the living standards and aspirations of the people. And when I saw that, I remember, you know, reaching out to Hakeem Jeffries 'cause he and I are friends and we have a, a regular, uh, ongoing dialogue, and saying, "This is how you do it." Th- you, you don't just say, "Corruption bad." You say, "Their corruption is actually hurting you." And the Democrats were especially good at making that, uh, relevant to voters.

Kara Swisher 21:46 That, that linking it together. Now, um, now you ta- you, you talked about Hakeem Jeffries, but, um, and Chuck Schumer's gonna be the Senate Majority Leader. He recruited some successful candidates, but now some of the winners don't want him to be Majority Leader. I'd love to kn- I don't even know your take on this. I, I have thought there needed fresh blood myself. Uh, I jokingly said this to him, and his wife agreed with me, uh, just as a joke at an event we were at. But, uh, i- how do you look at this happening? Obviously, they just won, and everyone should be basking in the glory, but a lot of people are talking about change 'cause this is a change election.

Hillary Clinton 22:19 It was a change election, but you gotta know how to run the Senate, and the rules are arcane, and experience actually matters, uh, because you have 100 people. It's like a hothouse. I was there for eight years, and it takes, uh, a lot of, uh, discipline to be able to get things done, even with the majority we now have. Uh, if I were going into the Senate right now, I would vote for Chuck Schumer, uh, to be the leader for the next, uh, two years. That wouldn't mean, you know, in perpetuity, but we have to get to work. We can't engage in some kind of, uh, you know, f- luxury of, you know, having a leadership fight. I don't even know who would actually challenge him, uh, that would garner a, a majority of the existing and incoming senators. But we have to get to work. And so I would, uh, you know, not only take into account the really successful recruiting that, uh, Chuck Schumer did and the money that he raised, but that, you know, this is going to be combat by another name, uh, because what's gonna happen? The Republicans are going to You know, join ranks. They're gonna do everything they can to stymie this new Democratic majority. We're gonna have to know every parliamentary maneuver there is to break through whatever, you know, shenanigans and deadlock they try to impose. We're gonna have a hostile administration, regardless of what Trump himself says or does. The whole administration will be, you know, looking to trip the, uh, Democrats up. Uh, there's just gonna be a lot happening. The Republicans, after exploding the national debt, are all of a sudden gonna discover the debt again and try to strangle, uh, spending. So I want people who know what they're doing, and we have a really-

Kara Swisher 24:05 At least for the next two years. But y- you-

Hillary Clinton 24:07 We, we, we have a really good senior group in, uh, the Senate who can, you know, help the new, you know, the new senators. I had to learn how to be a senator. You don't walk in there and know all the rules and figure out, "Oh, gosh, I know what to do tomorrow." You gotta learn it.

Kara Swisher 24:19 It's r- kind of interesting, despite having six new members of the House endorsed by the DSA, you didn't really see a DSA wave. It was more of, of a centrist wave, but it was a progressive wave, right, in some ways. And at the same time, there were a lot of sort of centrists. It was a mix. It was a, it's a massive mix, and I'm sure there's one or two Republican senators who are gonna walk right over, even if John Fetterman walks the other direction, for example. How do you look at that, what- what's happening between and among both the House and the Senate, trying to get some bipartisanship going? It would seem that Republicans, this might be a good time not to stay with Donald Trump on a lot of things.

Hillary Clinton 24:53 Yeah, we'll see. We'll see what they do. That's gonna be up to them. I hope some of them begin to break with him. But going to your point, we have this very large majority in the Congress, largely due to winning, uh, purple districts and even flipping red districts. We're gonna have to really figure out how to pass legislation, and that's, I think, you know, what Speaker Jeffries is gonna be focused on. We have to put some points on the board. We can't be engaged in some kind of intramural, uh, you know, rivalry. We've gotta pull together and say, "Here's what we're producing for you. Here's how we're lowering your healthcare costs. Here's how we're dealing with energy costs," all of the things that people voted for. Um, so I'm excited about getting organized to do the work. You know, I've been saying this now for months, that if you wanna have Medicare for all, write the bill and, and, and begin to get the votes for it. If you have a different idea, you write the bill and begin to get the votes for it. Let's get back to actually producing results for the American people.

Kara Swisher 25:57 Legislation rather than-

Hillary Clinton 25:59 Yeah

Kara Swisher 25:59 ... posturing. Yeah.

Hillary Clinton 26:00 Exactly. Let's change, let's change people's lives. If it was a change election, let's produce change. Don't just, you know, be, you know, engaged in finger-pointing and, and-

Kara Swisher 26:08 Right

Hillary Clinton 26:08 ... you know, score settling with your fellow members.

Kara Swisher 26:10 No, that's for the Republicans this week, it looks like. Um, you were a little worried about Texas. It went to Talarico. He's now the youngest member of the Senate. Last time the Texas Senate seat was held by a Democrat, it was 38 years ago in 1988. Incredible. He did this in spite of all the money Elon spent to defeat him, and we reached out to, uh, Reid Hoffman, a big Democratic donor, to get his take. Uh, he was a b- big backer of Talarico, and here's what he had to say.

Speaker 26:34 I think the important thing is to, you know, kind of, you know, now raise the question is, you know, how much money has Elon made because of his influence? And I think the American voters, the Texan voters, have said nobody should get special privileges, and we need transparency. We need accountability. You know, billions of dollars should not be going from the, uh, off the, the, the blood, sweat, and tears of American people to individuals who are willing to buy political influence. And so I think it's important that we have complete and, uh, transparency and understanding of that, and I think that's part of what the Texas vote has made extremely clear.

Kara Swisher 27:21 So talk a little bit about that because this was an enormous amount of money. I think he was the single biggest donor to Ken Paxton by far. Someone was saying to me, I was at lunch today, and they said, "You just don't give that kind of money if you don't want something." Like-

Hillary Clinton 27:32 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 27:32 ... there's certain amounts of money rich people always give, you know-

Hillary Clinton 27:35 Mm-hmm

Kara Swisher 27:35 ... to be able to go to the Senate or to get a small thing here or there, or at least just an audience. This was something else. So-

Hillary Clinton 27:43 Right

Kara Swisher 27:43 ... talk a little bit a- about that, is, um, uh, how much money he's made. He's losing money today because Tesla and SpaceX shares are down. I think he's lost $80 billion since, uh, the election, but he made a lot of money with Donald Trump so far. He's benefited from contracts, et cetera. H- talk about that idea because he re- as you said, he was the poster child for this.

Hillary Clinton 28:04 Well, I think Reid Hoffman is absolutely right. People want transparency. They want the same rules for everybody. We've gotta get that kind of money out of politics. One of the things I hope the Democrats do is introduce, uh, an amendment to overturn Citizens United, to get back some control from the Supreme Court, which basically said all bets are off. You can put as much money with no accountability and transparency into any election at any time. Uh, so I think there are steps that the Democrats have to take, uh, to bring about the kind of transparency and accountability that I and Reid and so many others are hoping for. And it's especially important for Elon Musk because his money is made largely, uh, through government contracts, government subsidies, government business. And I don't, I don't have an objection to that if it... we're getting our money's worth, but how do we know that we are if we don't have transparency about, you know, what's going out the door and going in the other, uh, door for, you know, his company and him personally? So that's part of what has to be done both legislatively and through investigations. We need laws that are going to tighten the rules on what people, uh, can and can get from the government, um, and what kind of disclosure and transparency they have to give up in order to get anything. And we're gonna need more investigations to get to the kind of transparency so that we really understand. What did all of these companies get for all this money that-

Kara Swisher 29:34 Not just Musk, all the tech companies, for example

Hillary Clinton 29:35 ... All of-- Well, the tech companies and frankly, a lot of other companies that-

Kara Swisher 29:39 Yeah

Hillary Clinton 29:39 ... lined up to, you know, give, uh, Trump, uh, uh, whatever he asked for, who settled lawsuits they could've won, uh, that went on bended knee, uh, to do his bidding. I mean, we've gotta get to the bottom of this. Now, they may have thought it was a business decision, but we need to find out how much money was involved, what it went for, uh, what Trump got out of it, and what they got out of it.

Kara Swisher 30:02 What they got out of it. So that's one of them. So Musk will be in the, in the, will be in the crosshairs. A number of things. Ukraine is one of them, right? How... If you were y- secretary of state and someone did this, like a, a private citizen, uh, where was Marco Rubio during this entire thing, for example? Where, where was Donald Trump? Some people said it was Trump's responsibility, but i- that's one investigation I'd like to at least see what happened. Le- illegal or not illegal, like, how did that happen? How did, how would... Who was giving the orders about m- you know, missiles or guidance systems or whatever in-

Hillary Clinton 30:35 Yeah

Kara Swisher 30:35 ... Ukraine? That's one. And DOGE is the second one. I mean, he may have been appointed, and again, it's Trump's responsibility, but what happened would be... No matter what, even if it's not illegal, what happened is useful. But talk about, like, Ukraine, for example, 'cause that's really pissed off a lot of Republicans, as you know.

Hillary Clinton 30:51 It should. I-

Kara Swisher 30:52 Yeah

Hillary Clinton 30:52 ... and, and you know, Paul Krugman, the Nobel Prize-winning economist-

Kara Swisher 30:56 Mm-hmm

Hillary Clinton 30:56 ... has basically said we cannot allow one man to make national security decisions by, by whim. Uh, he shut off, you know, access to Starlink and the military, uh, uh, component called Starshield, uh, which interfered with the Ukrainians being able, uh, to know when incoming missiles and drones were headed towards civilian targets, such as in Kyiv, and that meant they couldn't sound alarms, and that meant that, you know, innocent civilians were being, you know, once again targeted by the Russians with, you know, no ability for the, uh, Ukrainians to protect their people. It's bad enough that Trump has slow-walked the Patriot air defense missile systems that the Ukrainians need to be able to shoot those, uh, incoming missiles out of the air. But not to even give people warning, uh, because we didn't know, uh, that they were headed toward civilian targets is just... It, it's outrageous. It's cruel.

Kara Swisher 32:01 Did, did that ever happen to you in any of your time as secretary of state?

Hillary Clinton 32:04 Back in 2009, when Iranians were out in the streets protesting, Twitter had a 90-minute upgrade scheduled which would have shut it down right in the middle of the day in Iran. So my State Department asked, uh, Twitter to push it back, and they said okay.

Kara Swisher 32:22 [laughs]

Hillary Clinton 32:22 Um, that's the one example that pops into my head.

Kara Swisher 32:25 But the government was involved in that. It wasn't-

Hillary Clinton 32:27 Our, our government-

Kara Swisher 32:28 Yeah. It's not clear w- who pulled the trigger on the, on the U- Ukraine thing. They kept going back and forth. Trump said it wasn't him.

Hillary Clinton 32:35 Well, they keep blaming each other, you know?

Kara Swisher 32:36 Right. Yeah.

Hillary Clinton 32:36 I mean, Hegseth said it wasn't him. Trump said, "Well, maybe somebody called me, but I don't remember. I'm not sure." Elon said, "I wouldn't have done it without them." We need to find out, and I think, if I'm not mistaken, Kara, that, uh, the Senate Foreign Relations Committee has sent letters already saying, "Preserve documents."

Kara Swisher 32:52 To, to get to a... Yeah. It's critical. Yeah.

Hillary Clinton 32:53 Yeah. We're gonna look into this.

Kara Swisher 32:54 And then DOGE, of course.

Hillary Clinton 32:56 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 32:56 Uh, it's was a bad week for Elon Musk. Anyway, we'll go on a quick break, and when we come back, let's talk about what the Dems need to do on day one, as you were suggesting. [upbeat music] Support for this show comes from the Freedom from Religion Foundation. On High Stakes, Hillary and I talk about the choices shaping our democracy. Here's a fundamental one: Who should hold power in America, the people or religion? Our founders created a constitution that bars religious tests for public office, and the First Amendment protects your freedom to believe or not believe. Yet we're seeing a growing efforts to blur the line between religion and government, from public schools to public policy. When the government takes sides on religion, everyone's freedom is at risk. The Freedom from Religion Foundation works to keep state and church separate. FFRF also stands up for free thinkers, atheists, agnostics, and millions of non-religious Americans whose voices deserve to be heard. Visit FFRF.us/kara or text K-A-R-A to 511-511 to learn more or to join, because protecting democracy means protecting freedom for everyone. Text Kara to 511-511 or go to FFRF.us/kara. Text fees may apply. [upbeat music] Support for this show comes from Mutual Care Now. You may have heard of the book Bullies, Parasites, and Slaves by George Byron Coke about how the working poor and even middle class are exploited to subsidize the bullies and parasites up at the top. George is a senior vice president at Oracle and a feisty Anglican priest of 30 years, making good trouble around the world. He tells the truth about who, when, where, and how in history and today. Now, George's son, George August Coke, has written his own first book, Mutual Care Now, about how to lead us out of exploitation into shared prosperity. Go to mutualcare.com to get your copies of both books, Bullies, Parasites, and Slaves and Mutual Care Now, or text my name, Swisher, to 511-511 to receive an immediate link to get the books, paperback, e-books, or audio. That's Swisher, S-W-I-S-H-E-R, to 511-511 to get a link to the books, and then give them to someone who might need them. Again, go to mutualcarenow.com or text my last name, Swisher, to 511-511. It's time to change our world together. Text fees may apply. Madam Secretary, we're back. The Dems have won, and now they need to get to work, as you noted. Let's talk about what comes next. How prohibitive is a deadlock to getting anything done? And you've said the Democrats, uh, on day one have to tackle affordability and corruption. You talked to Hakeem Jeffries. Pretend you're him. You win the floor vote to become Speaker of the House. What's the one thing you would do?

Hillary Clinton 35:39 I think they have to introduce legislation on both affordability and accountability, and they have to pass it as soon as possible with as near as possible unanimous Democratic votes. Um, and then they have to send it to the Senate, and Chuck Schumer needs to do exactly the same. I mean, this-- We have to show momentum coming off this very big win. Now, there's more games that can be played in the Senate than in the House, and that's what I was referring to earlier, that the Republicans will try to stymie-

Kara Swisher 36:10 To deadlock. To deadlock.

Hillary Clinton 36:11 Yeah, they'll try to deadlock through the filibuster and other ways. But I, I think we can overcome that because a lot of these issues are going to attract at least some of the Republicans who are gonna be looking over their own shoulder about their own upcoming re-election. And then if Trump doesn't sign what has been passed, you have two options. Number one, try to pass it with a veto-proof majority. See if you can get that done. Number two, go out to the country and say, "We heard you. You voted for us. Donald Trump won't let us help you." I think that has to be a communications narrative strategy as well as an inside legislative strategy.

Kara Swisher 36:53 Is there a specific prob- bill you would say around... Give me one for each, affordability and corruption.

Hillary Clinton 36:59 Well, on affordability, let's, uh, reinstate the, uh, subsidies for the Affordable Care Act, and let's, uh, reverse the really cruel cuts in Medicaid that are gonna shut hospitals and, you know, deprive people of healthcare. We've got to reverse those. That's gonna be both a pocketbook issue and a healthcare access, uh, affordability issue. I think on the, uh, accountability corruption, we need finally to pass, you know, uh, bans on stock trading, not just for the Congress, but also for the executive branch. [chuckles]

Kara Swisher 37:33 Yeah.

Hillary Clinton 37:34 Uh, that needs to be as rock solid as possible.

Kara Swisher 37:38 Mm-hmm.

Hillary Clinton 37:38 Uh, so I think that there are ideas that are already in the queue that have to be, you know, just put up into legislative, uh, form and get passed as soon as possible.

Kara Swisher 37:48 Get passed as soon as possible. Now, another thing is, is the war. Now, Trump and Vance are conceding that the Iran war cost the GOP the election, especially Vance is trying very hard. Trump's now downplaying his earlier strike threats, which were very severe actually, and you thought he was gonna double down. Um, is there... Congress isn't sworn until January. Is there anything, you know, the emboldened party leadership can do in the meantime? Um, and, uh, a-a-and what will happen in this interim period, from your perspective? He, he seems rather docile this week for some reason, except for the ballroom.

Hillary Clinton 38:25 Yeah, no, except for the ballroom. I am waiting to see. I, I found Vance's, uh, comments to be particularly unconvincing, in part because if you followed the polling, uh, people began to feel relieved when they claimed there was a ceasefire, and then when the ceasefire collapsed, partly because Vance negotiated a very bad deal, um, they... You know, people began to, you know, feel the, the pain of high gas prices again. So I think their attempt, especially Vance's attempt, to kind of wiggle out from under the responsibility of Iran is, is not going very well for them. Um, and at this point, I think, I think Trump is in a, a bit of a pickle because, uh, I think he was planning to double down on attacking-

Kara Swisher 39:11 Yes, Chris Murphy had said that before he had his-

Hillary Clinton 39:13 Yeah

Kara Swisher 39:13 ... stroke recently.

Hillary Clinton 39:14 And attacking Iran, and, and he thought Bibi would be his, you know, once again, uh, wingman, partner. I'm just not sure that, that that's gonna fly, um, uh, right now because of everything else going on in both Israeli politics and American politics. Uh, the Congress, I think both, um, you know, Jeffries and chairs of committees, as well as Schumer, and the same in the Senate, can be sending, you know, very clear messages, like a, a formal, uh, notice to the administration that, uh, we intend to cut off every penny, uh, for further attacks. We expect you to negotiate to get the Strait of Hormuz open because it was your, uh, reckless war that closed it, which is gonna raise-

Kara Swisher 39:59 Right

Hillary Clinton 39:59 ... the costs.

Kara Swisher 40:00 'Cause he's got more ability on foreign policy, right?

Hillary Clinton 40:03 Yes, he does.

Kara Swisher 40:03 But you can cut off the money. But you can cut off the money.

Hillary Clinton 40:05 We can, we can cut off the money, and we can also go to court, which the Republicans never would do-

Kara Swisher 40:10 Mm-hmm

Hillary Clinton 40:10 ... to prevent him from using, uh, one pot of money that was not meant for it to fund one of his other, uh, you know, favorite, uh, items. We, we can stop that if we actually have a Congress with a backbone.

Kara Swisher 40:24 Right. So that's the thing. Now, this Iran thing, there's ru- two rumors. One is that Pete Hegseth is on his way out, uh, bef- even before he can be impeached, which I think he was on the top of the Democrats' list for that, um, and may take that Senate seat if... I still don't think Marsha's giving it to him, but that's my take. Um, he might be out, and there's... Trump is talking to different people who could do it. Um, one, I want to know who you think, if he was picking a good person, who it would be, uh, from your perspective. And secondly, there's rumors now that Marco Rubio is gonna leave to try to distance himself and then run for president, 'cause he's got to get out now before all hell does break loose, which it feels like it might. Talk about each of those things. And obviously, Vance is totally tethered to this guy, no matter what he tries to do.

Hillary Clinton 41:09 Well, first of all, I think the House under Republican leadership is going to impeach Hegseth next week with, uh, the motion by-

Kara Swisher 41:17 Thomas Massie

Hillary Clinton 41:17 ... outgoing congressman, you know, Thomas Massie.

Kara Swisher 41:20 Mm-hmm.

Hillary Clinton 41:21 I think he's got the votes.

Kara Swisher 41:22 Mm-hmm.

Hillary Clinton 41:22 I think he's going to impeach, uh, Hegseth in this lame duck session. So at that point It seems sensible for Trump to put a lot of pressure on the new [laughs] the new governor of Tennessee, Marsha Blackburn, to have her appoint Hegseth's, uh, to the Senate seat, but I don't know what that gets her. Uh, you know, she's newly elected. She needs some chits. There's probably people that she owes a lot more to that helped her get elected, so we'll see. We'll see what, what happens there.

Kara Swisher 41:52 What happens there, right.

Hillary Clinton 41:53 Yeah, but it, but even without that, uh, you know, kind of engineered graceful exit-

Kara Swisher 41:59 Mm-hmm

Hillary Clinton 41:59 ... uh, Hegseth may be gone, I think it would be unlikely, uh, that he would appoint anyone I thought was good, um, and I'm not sure he can appoint anybody that he wants to appoint who can get confirmed by this new Senate. You know, this new Senate is not going to roll over like the old Senate did and, you know, appoint, you know, the vaccine denier Bobby Kennedy and all the other people that, uh, they voted to confirm. So I, I, I'm not sure that he can get anybody confirmed for that job. Now, that means that he'll have temporary people in place, and that could be very dangerous, because-

Kara Swisher 42:35 Mm-hmm

Hillary Clinton 42:35 ... they will be totally beholden to him.

Kara Swisher 42:38 Right, unless, unless he does pick someone. Do you see any? 'Cause he is somewhat... Uh, uh, I wanna get to Rubio in a second, but he's feels docile. I don't know if that's just 'cause he doesn't know what happened to him, 'cause it was so sh- I don't think he thought it would be this big. W- is, is there... You, you thought he might-

Hillary Clinton 42:53 I don't think people told him-

Kara Swisher 42:53 ... double down on crazy

Hillary Clinton 42:54 ... I don't think people told him the truth, Kara.

Kara Swisher 42:56 Mm-hmm.

Hillary Clinton 42:56 I don't think they've been telling him the truth. He, he's allergic to the truth. I don't think-

Kara Swisher 42:59 Mm-hmm

Hillary Clinton 42:59 ... they've been, you know, giving him an honest read for weeks, maybe months.

Kara Swisher 43:05 Mm-hmm. So what happens in that situ- You've been in the White House. Now, you all told the truth to each other, presumably, but it's-

Hillary Clinton 43:11 Yeah

Kara Swisher 43:11 ... really hard, right? It's really-

Hillary Clinton 43:12 It is very hard.

Kara Swisher 43:13 Right. It's very hard to get the truth. I think Biden has suffered from it a little bit. You thought he would get worse, that, that you were saying this cycle, uh, that you can, when you're losing, you keep losing more. Is there any other scenario where he doesn't get worse?

Hillary Clinton 43:26 Well, he could maybe be convinced that some presidents have done very well with divided government, [laughs] and that he could actually get some wins out of truly cooperating with the Democrats. For example, you know, when my husband lost, uh, the Congress in 1994 after passing deficit reduction and reining in the NRA and assault weapons and all the rest of it, uh, and ended up with, you know, Newt Gingrich, it was painful, and he had to veto a lot of what they sent to his desk, but eventually, they were able to make progress on important issues like balancing the budget, which, you know, like it or not, is gonna come back, uh, into the spotlight not, uh, not so long from now. So he could, if he were willing, and who knows, and if the right people were talking to him, and I don't know who that is-

Kara Swisher 44:21 [laughs]

Hillary Clinton 44:22 ... um, you know, say to himself, "Hey, I can make, you know, a silk purse out of a sow's ear. I can, I can come up with some things that I would actually sign with Democrats."

Kara Swisher 44:31 Yeah. They said put his name on it. Say the, the, the-

Hillary Clinton 44:34 Put his-

Kara Swisher 44:34 ... Donald Trump $25 minimum wage bill. The Donald Trump-

Hillary Clinton 44:37 100%

Kara Swisher 44:37 ... Medicare For All bill.

Hillary Clinton 44:39 That's exactly right. So I, I don't know which way it's gonna go, and frankly, who is left-

Kara Swisher 44:45 Mm-hmm. I don't know. The Natalie-

Hillary Clinton 44:47 ... that could influence him-

Kara Swisher 44:48 Natalie

Hillary Clinton 44:49 ... in the right way?

Kara Swisher 44:50 Right, Natalie. Susan Wiles is supposed to be on the, on the, on the edge of whatever you have to be on.

Hillary Clinton 44:56 Yeah. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 44:56 I mean, that always happens. So Rubio, New- speaking of Newt Gingrich, he sort of posted something that, like, Vance is toast. What do you do when you're, uh, you know... He was, he's Secretary of State and Secretary of everything else it seems like. What, what do you do in a position like that, as Secretary? Is the best thing for him to do to walk away?

Hillary Clinton 45:13 I, I, I don't know. He clearly wants to be president, um, but whether he thinks walking away now would give him some distance from the, [laughs] you know, the wreckage of the first two years of, uh, the Trump administration, maybe he would, and, you know, thank the President for the honor of serving in two positions, both Secretary of State and National Security Advisor, and then depart. But he may also still have, uh, the hope that he can be the liberator of Cuba. Uh, you know, lots of people think that, you know, m- maybe Trump won't attack Iran, but he might attack Cuba.

Kara Swisher 45:55 Mm.

Hillary Clinton 45:55 And if he could pull it off, that that would be, you know, some kind of, uh, legacy achievement, and-

Kara Swisher 46:03 Mm-hmm

Hillary Clinton 46:03 ... you know, Marco Rubio-

Kara Swisher 46:04 Yeah

Hillary Clinton 46:04 ... would be on the first boat, you know, landing-

Kara Swisher 46:06 Right

Hillary Clinton 46:06 ... in Havana.

Kara Swisher 46:07 Right.

Hillary Clinton 46:07 If he still entertains that idea, then maybe he thinks he has to do it from the inside, or maybe he tells the president, "I think I can be more useful if I get on the outside and I work on what's going on in Venezuela with the oil, uh, uh, efforts, and what's going on, you know, with Cuba." I don't know. I don't pretend to know. Um, and, and a lot of people in the Republican Party like him a lot better than they like-

Kara Swisher 46:34 Sure do, yeah

Hillary Clinton 46:35 ... Vance.

Kara Swisher 46:35 Yeah.

Hillary Clinton 46:35 And so maybe he's taking his soundings and he's being advised, "Look, you need to separate yourself, go out and make some money, be an outside advisor, and then you can run for president." I don't know.

Kara Swisher 46:47 Later. Later. Yeah, there, it seems like the Republican presidential election is now wide open-

Hillary Clinton 46:51 Yeah

Kara Swisher 46:51 ... in the way it wasn't. And now, as of this taping, and this is gonna make it worse, votes are still being counted across the country, and Alaska and Mississippi are both dead heat races. But who protects certification over the next few weeks? The governors? The courts? Senate Republicans? And what is the most dangerous thing Trump can do, either in the wake of the election or in January when the House and Senate are sworn in? And will he? N- nothing happened during the election. As you said, you guys were ready, but there wasn't ICE at the, at the election centers. There wasn't... He didn't do something. What can he do that would be very problematic?

Hillary Clinton 47:23 I think the size of our majorities in both Houses, um, are, are so daunting for him and his, uh- You know, followers that, uh, I think they have very few options left. So for example, we have, I know, lawyers on the ground in Mississippi making sure that every vote that went for, you know, uh, the, the next senator, uh, Mr. Colome, is going to be, uh, counted. We have lawyers in Alaska. Uh, when I say we, the Democratic Party, the, you know, Democratic Senate Campaign Committee, people who really are experienced in this. But I, I, I think it's gonna be very difficult for them to pull either of these races, uh, away from the legitimate winner.

Kara Swisher 48:10 Right.

Hillary Clinton 48:10 And then in the House, it would require such organization among a very demoralized Republican, um, caucus that I don't see even Mike Johnson attempting that. I was very worried about it, you know-

Kara Swisher 48:25 Mm-hmm

Hillary Clinton 48:25 ... because who was gonna certify and all the rest of it. What I am hearing is that in a couple of states, most particularly Texas, some of the Texas state legisla- legislators, because remember, uh, a lot of them were, were defeated this time, and, you know, we really moved up in the numbers in both the State House and Senate, are, you know, trying to convince Abbott, uh, to, uh, call them back into session to repeal some of the powers of the, uh-

Kara Swisher 48:54 Governor

Hillary Clinton 48:54 ... governor.

Kara Swisher 48:54 Yeah, yeah.

Hillary Clinton 48:55 Uh-

Kara Swisher 48:55 Which, which-

Hillary Clinton 48:55 That was tried-

Kara Swisher 48:56 Which Brian Kemp declined to do in Georgia

Hillary Clinton 48:58 ... Wait, Brian Kemp declined to do. They did attempt to do it in North Carolina when, uh, Roy Cooper and then Josh Stein were, um, governor. So we have to watch the states, and, and again, I know that the newly elected, uh, not-yet-sworn-in governor, uh, Gina Hinojosa, will be all over that. So I think we are well-positioned to kinda knock down any of their, uh, illegal-

Kara Swisher 49:25 Attempts

Hillary Clinton 49:26 ... efforts to undermine the outcome of this election.

Kara Swisher 49:28 And what about, uh, you know, you're a lawyer. Subpo- they'll have subpoenas going out in January for lots of people. What if these Trump people, even if they get pardons or, or they resist the subpoenas, um, what is the actual mechanism? Because it's Todd Blanche and the US Marshals who have to force people, and would it be the Capitol Police? I mean, it seems rather scary.

Hillary Clinton 49:49 It's very dif- it, it's very difficult if you have a Justice Department that doesn't follow the law.

Kara Swisher 49:54 Mm-hmm.

Hillary Clinton 49:54 Um, you know, technically, if you defy the subpoena, and you are held in contempt, first by the committee and then by the full House, that then is referred to the Justice Department for, uh, prosecution. That's what happened to Steve Bannon, as you remember. Um, but the problem here is you have a totally, uh, [laughs] un-, uh, uh, willing Justice Department to follow the law. They consider themselves Trump's lawyers, not the lawyers for the United States. Um, so I think that there'll be some legal battles, you know, back and forth. And if Trump does pardon people, as he has now threatened he would, uh, you and I talked about that, uh, the pardon means that they can't plead the Fifth Amendment, which means that they have to answer questions. Uh, so I think that there are many, many, uh, steps, uh, in this process. The most important thing is to get the facts out, you know-

Kara Swisher 50:54 Right

Hillary Clinton 50:54 ... subpoena the papers. Subpoena-

Kara Swisher 50:55 Right

Hillary Clinton 50:55 ... you know, people-

Kara Swisher 50:56 Get the, get the information

Hillary Clinton 50:57 ... people down the chain who have relevant information. That's how we found out so much about the insurrection. It was brave people like Cassidy Hutchinson who, you know, stepped forward and told the truth. And I think you need to get the people who are literally filling out the papers, sending the emails, uh, you know, listening to the conversations, who will come together and-

Kara Swisher 51:22 And tell the truth. Yeah

Hillary Clinton 51:23 ... tell the truth. That's what we want.

Kara Swisher 51:24 Yeah.

Hillary Clinton 51:24 We want-

Kara Swisher 51:24 'Cause they don't have an interest in this b-

Hillary Clinton 51:26 Yeah

Kara Swisher 51:26 ... breaking the law.

Hillary Clinton 51:26 Everybody should have an interest in the truth-

Kara Swisher 51:28 Well, some people have an interest in breaking the law

Hillary Clinton 51:29 ... and transparency, right?

Kara Swisher 51:30 Yep, absolutely. All right, Madam Secretary, one more quick break. We'll talk about the lessons learned. [upbeat music] Support for this show comes from Vanta. Okay, the Vanta story I promised you. Vanta's co-founder and CEO is Christina Cacioppo. She was a product manager at Dropbox and saw how painful security compliance could be for startups trying to get secure and close deals, so she taught herself to code from books and started Vanta. Early on, she did that work by hand in spreadsheets. She even flew to Colorado to pull data for an auditor herself. I love a founder who does the hard part herself. And now Vanta does that work for you. Over 1,400 automated tests collect your compliance evidence and monitor your controls all year, cutting audit prep by 82%, and Vanta pays for itself in three months. Right now, new customers get $1,000 off. Request a demo at vanta.com/kara, K-A-R-A. That's vanta.com/kara. Madam Secretary, we're back. Now that the dust is settled, let's talk about what we learned. Let's talk about dummy mandering.

Hillary Clinton 52:35 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 52:35 Republicans redrew, uh, maps all over the country and protect their House majority, and Democrats won anyway by a lot. I- is it the end of the redistricting wars or just round one?

Hillary Clinton 52:44 Well, I think the Republicans thought it was round one. It may be the end for two reasons. One, as you point out, it didn't work, uh, because the Democrats fought back, particularly in California, but in a few other states. And then in the districts that were redrawn to try to put in bigger Trump numbers, it didn't matter this time because Trump was such a drag on the whole ticket. But I also think that the Democrats are looking at redistricting legislation on a federal level that, uh, can pass court muster and can be enforced so that they prevent this from ever happening again.

Kara Swisher 53:22 Mm-hmm. Yeah, they'll probably not try again since they failed so badly. Now, another thing, you're no fan of the Electoral College, for good reason.

Hillary Clinton 53:28 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 53:29 Um, but I'm hoping you put on your civics professor hat or your legal hat and explain what exactly the sexily named National Popular Voter Interstate Compact is and what it could mean for the next election.

Hillary Clinton 53:41 Well, you know, what it means is that the person who wins the most votes will actually be elected. And, you know I have a, a very big interest-

Kara Swisher 53:50 Yeah, yeah

Hillary Clinton 53:51 ... [laughs] in making, in making this happen. And the, and the way that it happens is that it-

Kara Swisher 53:55 Just for people who know, you won the popular vote, but not the electoral vote.

Hillary Clinton 53:58 Yes, I did, as did Al Gore.

Kara Swisher 53:59 Yes.

Hillary Clinton 53:59 Let's, let's, let's, uh-

Kara Swisher 54:01 Yeah

Hillary Clinton 54:01 ... include Al. But it's an agreement among, uh A number of US states, as well as the District of Columbia, where they will cast their electoral votes to whichever candidate wins the electoral majority nationwide. And it's regardless of which ticket won, they bind themselves through this, uh, legislation. Uh, and I actually think it's a, it's a good idea because it's designed to ensure that the candidate who wins the most votes is actually elected as our president.

Kara Swisher 54:35 So it's-- you can't play games in certain districts to let, like, 10 districts govern the entire nation.

Hillary Clinton 54:40 That's right. It's the whole country.

Kara Swisher 54:42 Mm-hmm.

Hillary Clinton 54:42 And I think we're pretty close. The last I checked, we had, like, states representing 222 or so-

Kara Swisher 54:48 Mm-hmm

Hillary Clinton 54:48 ... electoral votes.

Kara Swisher 54:49 You need 271, right? Two seventy.

Hillary Clinton 54:50 Yeah, we need 270. And-

Kara Swisher 54:52 270

Hillary Clinton 54:52 ... if we, if we now have states that are under Democratic governors and Democratic legislatures, I think we can get there. And honestly, I'd like us to try. The Electoral College is an anachronism. It's among the compromises made with slave-owning states and small states back in the day, and I think it's-- if it ever had a usefulness, it has outlived it. And one of the problems is because once you look at the electoral map and you realize it's the same, you know, seven, eight, nine states over and over again, that's the only place people campaign. So if you're in a safe state, either a safe blue state or a safe red state, so to speak, you never see a presidential cam- candidate because they're gonna go to Pennsylvania and to Michigan [chuckles] and to Wisconsin. I mean, now maybe the map has expanded because of this election, but I still think it would be the right thing, one person, one vote, let's elect the person who has the most votes.

Kara Swisher 55:51 Mm-hmm. And so that would, that would take care of it. That would be the end of the Electoral College if they get to 270 or over 270.

Hillary Clinton 55:57 Well, you know, I'm sure this Supreme Court would have something to say about it, because-

Kara Swisher 56:00 Mm-hmm

Hillary Clinton 56:00 ... I'm sure that, uh, once the interstate, uh, compact were agreed to by states representing 270 electoral votes, there would be an immediate legal challenge. Maybe they would wait, but I, I think they'd try to go and knock it out before it had a chance to, uh, operate. But I think we'd have very strong arguments. Under the Constitution, the states get to allocate their electoral votes. Remember, that's what the whole nonsense in 2020 was about. They were trying to, you know, not have you vote your electoral votes for who got the most votes, but who didn't get the [chuckles] most votes.

Kara Swisher 56:33 Right, right, right, right, right. And you would like to... We call it the Hillary Clinton Act.

Hillary Clinton 56:36 Yeah, let's call it the Hillary Clinton Interstate Compact.

Kara Swisher 56:38 Al-- Hillary and Al Pact.

Hillary Clinton 56:39 [laughs] That's, uh... That's exactly right.

Kara Swisher 56:41 Two more questions. Planning for 2028 starts today. Speaking of that, 'cause that's a part of it, uh, what lessons can't Democrats forget? One of them is not do revenge. A lot of peop- Hakeem Jeffries and others, "Let's not get revenge. Let's get things done." That sort of... And actually, it was, it was echoed by everyone from El Sayed to Talarico. They all were saying, were on the-- seemed to be on the same-- singing the same chorus of that, like, "Let's ignore... We're not gonna ignore crime. We're gonna ignore looking like we're taking revenge."

Hillary Clinton 57:08 Right.

Kara Swisher 57:08 So what lessons can't Democrats forget? As we noted on stage this week, you're just-- you, you have not sealed the deal with voters. Democrats certainly haven't. Um, but they, they... All they do know is they don't like this guy.

Hillary Clinton 57:21 Right.

Kara Swisher 57:21 That's not enough to win, by any means.

Hillary Clinton 57:24 It isn't enough to win. I mean, we've been given both the challenge and the opportunity to prove what we stand for and what we can deliver for the American people, and I, I think the, the, the motto, you know, not revenge but results, uh, we've gotta put some points on the board to show what we are capable of doing. I think candidates are gonna have to expand their own map, which kind of gets back to the interstate, uh, popular vote, uh, compact. Don't write off the South. Campaign in the South. You may now have a receptive audience you did not have before, especially if the Democratic Congress, uh, performs with the kind of discipline that we're hoping for, uh, to begin to tackle affordability and accountability as promised. So that, to me, is one of the biggest lessons. I think another lesson is be as focused on, uh, communicating, you know, broadly, uh, with the electorate and, and, and be very positive about any changes that we're going to hopefully get through on campaign financing because, you know, we, we need to get out of the, you know, the, the hamster wheel of, of donors. And although, you know, we don't have the same numbers that, you know, the Republicans have, you know, we still need to make it very clear we are, you know, listening to people-

Kara Swisher 58:43 And not the donors

Hillary Clinton 58:43 ... you know, not the folks who can fund our campaigns.

Kara Swisher 58:44 Yeah, yeah, that's a bad look, be hanging out with rich people. You gotta put them away for a while. They can give you money.

Hillary Clinton 58:49 Well, at le- at least, you know, don't make it front and center, although, look, I mean, unless we get some campaign finance reform, we're in the same, you know, the same dilemma we always are.

Kara Swisher 58:58 Yeah.

Hillary Clinton 58:58 We gotta have-

Kara Swisher 58:58 Yeah

Hillary Clinton 58:58 ... the money to run the campaigns.

Kara Swisher 59:00 What about the idea... You know, there's a lot of jokes around what woke 3.0 is, and there's a lot of joking. There's a little-- much more humor among the, the Democrats and the left about these things. You know, we're gonna trans your, you know, your robot next week and, you know, we're gonna... Like, all the kind of stuff that didn't really matter to voters in this case 'cause they were interested. But those things can be started up again, like, sort of... But it didn't really work for them to argue about trans, to argue about, um, a whole manner of, like, cultural issues. It just didn't land this year, um, at all. But one of the things that I think has to happen is a sense of humor about stuff, like, not being quite so, like, censorious. Um, certainly the left can be censorious. The right bans, so that's very different. They're very different versions of censoriousness. And the same time, laughing about it, being able to have these difficult discussions is something that I think probably... And s- not holding anybody to a purity test for everyone on the le- more on the left is like, "Let's just lighten the fuck up and la- like, make jokes."

Hillary Clinton 59:58 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 59:59 Like, and stuff like that.

Hillary Clinton 1:00:00 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:00:00 I think this woke 3.0 stuff is very funny. Um, it just... I- let's hope it doesn't, like, get back to that, 'cause I don't think that was popular with citizens, for sure.

Hillary Clinton 1:00:09 You, you're absolutely right, and I thought the candidates exercised a lot of message discipline You know, I saw an interview with Gina Hinojosa, who said repeatedly, "I am an economic populist. I am a populist who wants to take on the economic problems of the people of Texas." And the interviewer kept saying, "Well, does that mean you're a progressive?" And she goes, "I use the word populist. You know, I'm not going to, you know, change from where I..." She was extremely disciplined.

Kara Swisher 1:00:36 Right.

Hillary Clinton 1:00:36 And so I think if, if we want to stay away from what have been winning, uh, campaigns from the Republicans with their culture wars, as, you know, really unfortunate as they were, because of the way they tried to distort, uh, all kinds of, uh, situations of people-

Kara Swisher 1:00:54 Well, jihadists, all kinds of things

Hillary Clinton 1:00:55 ... Yeah, I mean, it, it, you know, we just have to stay away from that.

Kara Swisher 1:00:58 Mm-hmm.

Hillary Clinton 1:00:58 I mean, we can't get pulled into it.

Kara Swisher 1:01:00 Mm-hmm.

Hillary Clinton 1:01:00 And we can't, you know, be, you know, once again, kind of outsmarted by the Republicans. So I-

Kara Swisher 1:01:06 Well, the governor of Kansas did a good job, the new governor. He did a, is-

Hillary Clinton 1:01:08 He was terrific.

Kara Swisher 1:01:09 He's terrific.

Hillary Clinton 1:01:10 And I am really looking forward to seeing him, uh, as a senator.

Kara Swisher 1:01:13 Yeah, he, he's, they're, they're, every, everyone had really good messaging. Now, last question, do you think Republicans are learning their lessons too? They seem very upset, um, and blaming each other, of course. Have you heard from them distancing themselves from Trump? Where do you see it?

Hillary Clinton 1:01:27 Well, they're distancing in private. They're distancing off the record. Um, I will believe it when they go public with their differences with Trump, and I will believe it when they cross the aisle and they vote for the Democrats' bills on affordability and accountability, and they basically say, "Look, there was an election, and I agree with a lot of this." Um, I will believe it when they ask Republican, uh, administration officials who are testifying in investigations hard questions and don't, you know, just engage in nonsense like so many, so many of them have, uh, now for two years. So I, I will believe it when I see them actually standing up to Trump, not just whispering behind their hands.

Kara Swisher 1:02:11 Right, and is there anyone you think would do that? Is it John Kennedy? Is it John Thune?

Hillary Clinton 1:02:17 I don't know yet, Kara. I, I don't know because they've been disappointing in, in so many ways. They all had chances to, you know, stand up and on very few issues. And to some extent on Ukraine, they all know better than what Trump is doing, uh, in Ukraine. They, they have, you know, voted for sanctions, and then he's just basically gutted their vote. So I think that there will be some bipartisan, uh, votes in particularly the Senate, I hope also the House. But, you know, a lot of the people who are left, uh, in the Congress, um, really are scared of him. They're scared of his money. They're scared of his power because when's their next election? Their next election is their primary, not the general election. So, it's gonna take them growing, you know, backbones and, and taking their consciences out of cold storage to stand up to Trump. Well, I would love to see John Thune. Uh, he stood up to Trump on the filibuster-

Kara Swisher 1:03:15 Mm-hmm

Hillary Clinton 1:03:15 ... uh, which wasn't easy. I served with him. He's very conservative, but I never thought of him as, you know, somebody who, uh, believed the kind of, uh, uh, nonsense that Trump and his, uh, minions, uh, you know, put out. Um, he could be, you know... I don't know if, if he'll be elected as their minority leader or not, but he could redeem himself-

Kara Swisher 1:03:42 Yeah, Trump was attacking-

Hillary Clinton 1:03:42 ... in the next two years.

Kara Swisher 1:03:43 Yeah, and is there any person of the Republican Party you're so- you're not sorry to see go? Like, if you had to pick-

Hillary Clinton 1:03:49 I'm not sorry to see any of them go.

Kara Swisher 1:03:50 [laughs]

Hillary Clinton 1:03:50 I'm glad to see all of them go.

Kara Swisher 1:03:51 [laughs]

Hillary Clinton 1:03:52 They, they disgraced themselves.

Kara Swisher 1:03:54 Yeah.

Hillary Clinton 1:03:55 They bent over backwards to deny truth, facts, evidence. Uh, it was-

Kara Swisher 1:04:00 Yeah

Hillary Clinton 1:04:00 ... it was painful. And, and you know, again, in private-

Kara Swisher 1:04:03 I gotta say Vivek Ramaswamy for me. [laughs] If I had to pick one-

Hillary Clinton 1:04:06 Oh, can I tell you-

Kara Swisher 1:04:07 I gotta-

Hillary Clinton 1:04:07 ... I was, you know, I, I was so proud of Amy Acton on many, many fronts in her campaign, and-

Kara Swisher 1:04:14 Yeah

Hillary Clinton 1:04:14 ... when she refused to take his call allegedly-

Kara Swisher 1:04:17 Yeah, put him on read

Hillary Clinton 1:04:18 ... conceding. Go girl.

Kara Swisher 1:04:19 Go girl.

Hillary Clinton 1:04:20 Why would you talk to that disgusting human being? Hopefully, he will never, you know, have a, a single second of airtime again.

Kara Swisher 1:04:27 Oh, don't count on it. Anyway.

Hillary Clinton 1:04:29 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 1:04:29 Um, okay, uh, uh, Hillary, thank you so much. This has been so substantive and long. Thanks for listening. We'll be back to our regularly scheduled programming next Wednesday. I'm going to read us out. Thank you, Hillary. You look great in blue, I'll tell you.

Hillary Clinton 1:04:41 [laughs] I'm, I'm loving my blue wave outfit.

Kara Swisher 1:04:44 All right, today's show was produced by Lara Naiman and Madeline LaPlante Dube. Our tape editors are Manolo Moreno and Brandon McFarland. Rosemary Ho provided fact-checking. Nick Merrill was in charge of pressing Steve Kornacki's khakis. Thanks to Art Chung, Abby Crenski, Rene Betterson, and Anna Casey. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to High Stakes from Vox Media. Hillary, people around the country love it. I'm on my pivot tour, and they just love, love everything you're throwing down, just so you know. [laughs]

Hillary Clinton 1:05:19 It's so much fun being with you.

Kara Swisher 1:05:20 You're fantastic. We'll be back next week. [upbeat music]