How it took Jeff Hiller 20 years to become an overnight success

1. 0:00 – 1:56

   Introduction

   1. JHJeff Hiller0:00

      No one's gonna cast me as a romantic lead, and I don't need to play the romantic lead. A lot of times those are really boring parts. It is on.

   2. KSKara Swisher0:11

      Hi, everybody. Today I'm joined by Emmy-winning actor and comedian Jeff Hiller. You know him from Somebody Somewhere, Pluribus, and Widow's Bay. But it took decades of auditions and bit parts before he finally got his breakthrough. We talk about finding success later in life, rejection, Hollywood, and why it's never too late for everything to change. Don't go anywhere. Jeff, thank you for coming on On.

   3. JHJeff Hiller0:35

      Thank you for having me on On. [laughs]

   4. KSKara Swisher0:37

      On, On. On, On. See, that's how I did it. That's how it works here. Um, so congratulations on your s- uh, on a second Emmy nomination.

   5. JHJeff Hiller0:45

      Thank you.

   6. KSKara Swisher0:45

      Um, you've talked about how shocking your first nomination was last year after decades of just trying to make a living as an actor. How did number two compare? Are you just, are you one of those happy to be nominated types? Or are you just like, "Give me that fucking Emmy right now"?

   7. JHJeff Hiller0:58

      [laughs] Um, okay, I know it's cheesy, and I know this, this, this answer is like, "Oh, come on, you're lying," but I swear to you, I, I truly believe [laughs] that I am just happy to be in the conversation at all because I, I got to tell you, like, for a long, long time, I was like, you know, temping and teaching improv and, and, and, and just the idea that I get to be an actor, uh, at all is such a thrill for me. And so yeah, the, the second-- But also, it's like, I'm pretty sure I'm not gonna win this one. [laughs]

   8. KSKara Swisher1:34

      Okay. [laughs]

   9. JHJeff Hiller1:34

      But I, I thought I wasn't gonna win the last one either, so I don't know.

   10. KSKara Swisher1:37

       Yeah, yeah.

   11. JHJeff Hiller1:37

       But I am just sort of like-

   12. KSKara Swisher1:38

       Wait, who is your biggest compet- You're up against Col- Colman Domingo again.

   13. JHJeff Hiller1:42

       Colman Domingo, yeah.

   14. KSKara Swisher1:43

       Yeah.

   15. JHJeff Hiller1:43

       Jonathan Pryce. I mean, you know, it's like-

   16. KSKara Swisher1:45

       Yeah.

   17. JHJeff Hiller1:45

       And it's also like my role in Pluribus was, you know, I was just one scene. It was a very good scene.

   18. KSKara Swisher1:50

       It was a very good scene.

   19. JHJeff Hiller1:51

       It was just one scene. [laughs]

   20. KSKara Swisher1:51

       It was an excellent scene. I was like, "What happened? What happened to him?"

2. 1:56 – 4:20

   Life after winning an Emmy

   1. KSKara Swisher1:56

      Um, that it's such a spectacular show. Talk about that idea of being an actor that I, I know a lot of actors, um, it's really difficult to keep going as an actor in general.

   2. JHJeff Hiller2:06

      I know, and you do sort of think like, like last year when I won an Emmy, I was like, "Oh, everything's, everything's fine now. It's all-"

   3. KSKara Swisher2:15

      Yeah, yeah.

   4. JHJeff Hiller2:15

      [laughs] "... gonna be fine." But it's like-

   5. KSKara Swisher2:17

      Yeah

   6. JHJeff Hiller2:17

      ... no, it's still a slog. You still gotta like-

   7. KSKara Swisher2:20

      Yeah

   8. JHJeff Hiller2:20

      ... you know, audition and, and, you know, try and fit your weird peg into a-

   9. KSKara Swisher2:26

      Yeah

   10. JHJeff Hiller2:26

       ... square hole. Um-

   11. KSKara Swisher2:28

       Yeah.

   12. JHJeff Hiller2:29

       So yeah, it, it's, it's always hard and, you know, but it's a lot easier-

   13. KSKara Swisher2:34

       Yeah

   14. JHJeff Hiller2:34

       ... once you have a little bit of success. [laughs]

   15. KSKara Swisher2:35

       Yes, absolutely. Emmy Award-winning.

   16. JHJeff Hiller2:37

       Yeah.

   17. KSKara Swisher2:37

       Um, so y- you, you, um, you managed to land roles in two big breakout TV shows this year, which is Pluribus and Widow's Bay. Your Emmy nomination is for a guest appearance in Pluribus. Your character, Larry, has to break it to Ray, Sea Horn's character, a romance novelist named Carol, that her late wife didn't like her books. The, the idea behind the show is that everyone on Earth except Carol and a few others are now part of the hive mind. They share one mind. Um, talk a little bit about it because I think it's all about AI, because of course I'm a tech person.

   18. JHJeff Hiller3:08

       [laughs]

   19. KSKara Swisher3:08

       I'm like, "This is, this is AI for all of us," 'cause it's so sycophantic. Um, it's got all the characteristics. I know the author has said, no, it is not, but I don't care. Um-

   20. JHJeff Hiller3:17

       [laughs]

   21. KSKara Swisher3:18

       Uh, can-

   22. JHJeff Hiller3:18

       That's what art is, right?

   23. KSKara Swisher3:20

       Yes, exactly.

   24. JHJeff Hiller3:20

       [laughs]

   25. KSKara Swisher3:21

       Um, talk about this character.

   26. JHJeff Hiller3:23

       Well, wh- when I auditioned, I did-- You know, they were very secretive about what the, you know, the hook of the show was. And so they told me, "You know, just pretend that you really love her. You're her father. You're talking about her dead mother." Uh, I wasn't, uh, a part of a hive mind talking about her dead wife. So, uh, it was, it was a little confusing. And at one point I s- uh, he said something and I said, "You mean like I know her like, like I really know her, or I know her like I science fiction-y kind of know her?" And he's like, "Science fiction-y." [laughs] Um, so, uh, you know, the c- the, the audition was, was complicated. And then when I got there, I went through, you know, a fitting and a, a, uh, and I-- They gave me this weird, all these different bicycle uniforms. [laughs] And I was like, "What is this show?" And it wasn't until Ray, um, texted me to say, "Hey, would you like to come over to my place, uh, on Sunday?"

3. 4:20 – 10:36

   Inside Apple TV's Pluribus

   1. JHJeff Hiller4:20

      Her one day off. You know, she, she had just that Saturday had been in LA for, because she was in the Bad Boys movie, and she needed to be there for the premiere. And so on her one day off from this incredibly intense shoot, she invited me over to her house. And the writer, Alison Tatlock, and the director, Zetna Fuentes, s- sat, sat down and just talked me through this thing, which you just explained actually quite-

   2. KSKara Swisher4:42

      Thank you

   3. JHJeff Hiller4:42

      ... well, very quickly-

   4. KSKara Swisher4:43

      Yeah, yeah

   5. JHJeff Hiller4:43

      ... and efficiently.

   6. KSKara Swisher4:44

      Yeah.

   7. JHJeff Hiller4:45

      And, um, but of course, I had like so many more questions.

   8. KSKara Swisher4:48

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JHJeff Hiller4:48

      And, and the big thing, the big takeaway was that my love for her is genuine, and they really wanted me to have genuine love for her. And so that-

   10. KSKara Swisher4:56

       Mm-hmm

   11. JHJeff Hiller4:56

       ... was really my sort of guidepost. Do you like my books? Oh, we love your books. It was, it was a difficult exer- acting exercise, but it was great. And, and, and the, the director, Zetna, she shot it like a play and-

   12. KSKara Swisher5:11

       Mm-hmm

   13. JHJeff Hiller5:11

       ... and, uh, and it's a seven-and-a-half minute scene and, and Alison was like, "This never happens in TV. Let's just let it breathe and enjoy it." And it was-

   14. KSKara Swisher5:19

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JHJeff Hiller5:20

       Ray and I kind of nerded out like, you know, actors-

   16. KSKara Swisher5:23

       Yeah, you get to talk

   17. JHJeff Hiller5:24

       ... tend to do.

   18. KSKara Swisher5:24

       Yeah.

   19. JHJeff Hiller5:25

       Yeah, exactly.

   20. KSKara Swisher5:25

       You get to talk. But what, um-

   21. JHJeff Hiller5:26

       You get to talk

   22. KSKara Swisher5:26

       ... but, but you, you, you had to shift the conception of the character on the spot, right? 'Cause you're speaking for everyone in some way.

   23. JHJeff Hiller5:33

       Exactly.

   24. KSKara Swisher5:34

       Yeah.

   25. JHJeff Hiller5:34

       And, and that was the big takeaway is that we all feel this way. But it was also just like knowing all of the words like even though you all have the same mind, if you have a lisp, you'll still have a lisp post thing. If you have a limp, you'll still have a limp, that kind of a thing. So I didn't have to worry about like, I don't know, matching pitch or timbre or anything, but just, um, this idea of in that moment we were so in love with her because it was kind of before she had Done bad things to us. [laughs]

   26. KSKara Swisher6:00

       Right, right, before she had, and will continue to do so it seems like from the last episode

   27. JHJeff Hiller6:04

       That's it. [laughs] Talking about last episode, yeah. [laughs]

   28. KSKara Swisher6:06

       Um, such a- that was the finest end to a sh- uh, to a season that I thought it was perfect. It was actually perfect. Um, it, but, but standing out in just a short role is really remarkable, actually. I, I, I still remember that scene between the two. There were several scenes like that, including when she talks about wanting to have an atom bomb at the same time. So how do you go about making that character your own while also making him part of the hive?

   29. JHJeff Hiller6:31

       I mean, it was, it, it was super complicated, and there was, I mean, there was just so many questions about, like, "But am I allowed to be this way or that way?" Um, and they were [laughs] very patient. And I think they kind of understood that this was a complicated assignment. And so because I was just sort of landing and immediately shooting, as a guest star is want to do, um, the, the big thing was about, uh, um, just feeling, showing how much I love her and how this information I know will disappoint her, but I can't lie, and so, uh, I, I have to very gently tell her, um, this truth that I don't think she's gonna wanna hear, and in fact, she doesn't wanna hear. Um, and, and I loved that. And I loved, like, that idea [laughs] of, of finding out your partner isn't wild about your, uh, your work is so juicy. There's that movie, um, You Hurt My Feelings, that Nicole Holof- Holofcener movie that's so good [laughs] about that exact topic. Um, s- so I was really into that concept, and also into this concept of this hive mind, loving her and wanting to protect her, but, uh, not being able to lie, you know?

   30. KSKara Swisher7:49

       If asked. If asked-
4. 10:36 – 21:30

   Why Widow's Bay works 18:39 Hollywood's beauty standards

   1. KSKara Swisher10:36

      Okay.

   2. JHJeff Hiller10:36

      [laughs] Um, she saw it anyway-

   3. KSKara Swisher10:41

      Yeah. [laughs]

   4. JHJeff Hiller10:41

      ... and, uh, and said, "Yeah, yeah, this was great. It's not-"

   5. KSKara Swisher10:44

      Mm-hmm

   6. JHJeff Hiller10:44

      ... "gonna work at all. You'd have to do it really differently." [laughs]

   7. KSKara Swisher10:47

      Right. Right. Right.

   8. JHJeff Hiller10:48

      Because I was a little broad.

   9. KSKara Swisher10:49

      This, this Dale character. This Dale character.

   10. JHJeff Hiller10:50

       Yes, exactly. And she also said, "It's a very tiny role. I, I completely get it if you don't wanna do it, but I'd love to have you there, but it's a very small role. He's gonna die in episode," whatever, I can't remember what episode it was. And um, and, and I said, "I would love to do it because I, I would love to get health insurance." [laughs]

   11. KSKara Swisher11:12

       Right. Right. Oh, good.

   12. JHJeff Hiller11:13

       And, and-

   13. KSKara Swisher11:13

       Good reason

   14. JHJeff Hiller11:13

       ... so I did it.

   15. KSKara Swisher11:14

       Yeah.

   16. JHJeff Hiller11:14

       And, and then it turned out to be this great show. They l- they let me improvise a little bit here and there-

   17. KSKara Swisher11:19

       Mm-hmm

   18. JHJeff Hiller11:20

       ... and I, my role gradually got a little bit bigger-

   19. KSKara Swisher11:22

       Mm-hmm

   20. JHJeff Hiller11:22

       ... until they finally said, "Do you mind if we don't kill you off?" Which that happened even before I was nominated for an Emmy, so I gotta say-

   21. KSKara Swisher11:29

       Well, now they can't kill you off. I won't, uh, give away any spoilers, but your character, Dale, seems poised to have a much bigger role in the second season. He's the only one who knows the island's dark secret, of which there are many, by the way. Um, w- how do you, where do you see yourself headed with Dale? Dale is a minor role. I was like, "Where is he?" And then you're sitting in a [laughs] meeting.

   22. JHJeff Hiller11:48

       [laughs]

   23. KSKara Swisher11:48

       I was watching and I was like, "The lady with the g- with the, uh, cigarettes' real good." Like she has a lot of good lines.

   24. JHJeff Hiller11:53

       Oh, Dale Dickey.

   25. KSKara Swisher11:54

       Yeah, Dale. She's amazing.

   26. JHJeff Hiller11:55

       The best.

   27. KSKara Swisher11:55

       Has she been waiting forever for that role? I feel like this is the perfect role for this woman. Um-

   28. JHJeff Hiller12:01

       It really is.

   29. KSKara Swisher12:02

       Yeah.

   30. JHJeff Hiller12:02

       And, and I l- was, she got nominated for an Emmy, too, and, and-
5. 21:30 – 26:38

   Why Hollywood is broken for working actors

   1. JHJeff Hiller21:30

      you got a commercial or something, that the residuals would last you for the entire year, and you might not have to have a temp job for that year.

   2. KSKara Swisher21:36

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JHJeff Hiller21:37

      Um, and that's just not, that's just not a possibility at all.

   4. KSKara Swisher21:41

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JHJeff Hiller21:41

      And on top of that, of course, I know I'm saying stuff that nobody, everybody's heard a million times, but like-

   6. KSKara Swisher21:47

      Mm-hmm

   7. JHJeff Hiller21:47

      ... rent is so high.

   8. KSKara Swisher21:49

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JHJeff Hiller21:49

      And we all have to live in these major cities where the rent is even higher than the rent-

   10. KSKara Swisher21:53

       Mm-hmm

   11. JHJeff Hiller21:53

       ... [laughs]

   12. KSKara Swisher21:53

       Right

   13. JHJeff Hiller21:54

       ... in other cities.

   14. KSKara Swisher21:55

       Right.

   15. JHJeff Hiller21:55

       And so it just makes it so that you can't be, uh, you can just never get ahead financially. You can never feel safe financially. And, uh, it's terrifying. I mean, I, like, even just, like, pilot season. There used to be a pilot season, and even if you got a pilot and the pilot didn't get picked up, you made enough money from that pilot that you would be able to not work for a long time.

   16. KSKara Swisher22:20

       Right.

   17. JHJeff Hiller22:20

       And it's like you get six episodes, and the next one we're gonna film in two years. [laughs]

   18. KSKara Swisher22:25

       Right, right. Well, that's the-

   19. JHJeff Hiller22:26

       Where it used to be 22 episodes every year.

   20. KSKara Swisher22:28

       Right, right, right. Yeah. It's funny that, you know, even winning an Emmy doesn't insulate you from this, but I have a lot of friends who've won Emmys, and it's, they say the exact same thing where, and you're sort of surprised. Um, one of my friends just got a, a regular broadcast show, and she was like, "It's 22 episodes. I don't know what to do."

   21. JHJeff Hiller22:44

       Mm-hmm.

   22. KSKara Swisher22:44

       Right? Rather than six.

   23. JHJeff Hiller22:46

       Mm.

   24. KSKara Swisher22:46

       Six to eight. I know, they get you-

   25. JHJeff Hiller22:47

       Dreamy.

   26. KSKara Swisher22:48

       Dreamy. [laughs]

   27. JHJeff Hiller22:49

       Sexy. [laughs]

   28. KSKara Swisher22:50

       Get yourself on Law & Order or some, one of those.

   29. JHJeff Hiller22:52

       I know. I want to.

   30. KSKara Swisher22:53

       Yeah, you have to be. You'd be good as a quirky, uh, med- medical-
6. 26:38 – 28:20

   Why Jeff Hiller rejects success myths

   1. JHJeff Hiller26:38

      and she was like, "You need to find a, a role that's kind of like you." And I thought, like, "They don't write roles like me." [laughs]

   2. KSKara Swisher26:44

      They don't write, right. Right. They don't. No.

   3. JHJeff Hiller26:46

      [laughs]

   4. KSKara Swisher26:46

      'Cause this is a very specific middle-class-

   5. JHJeff Hiller26:48

      Yeah

   6. KSKara Swisher26:48

      ... life in a small Midwest town. It's-

   7. JHJeff Hiller26:51

      Right

   8. KSKara Swisher26:51

      ... you know, it's about grief. It's about chosen family quite a bit. And-

   9. JHJeff Hiller26:54

      Yeah

   10. KSKara Swisher26:54

       ... uh, they don't have fancy jobs. They, or live in big modern houses. Joel drives a, a old Buick LeSabre and dreams of owning a Vitamix.

   11. JHJeff Hiller27:02

       [laughs]

   12. KSKara Swisher27:02

       Um, do you think Hollywood's moved away from telling those kind of stories over the last few-- They, they used to be quite prevalent, if you think about it.

   13. JHJeff Hiller27:09

       Oh, you think?

   14. KSKara Swisher27:09

       Yeah.

   15. JHJeff Hiller27:09

       I feel like it's such an anomaly that we even got-

   16. KSKara Swisher27:11

       Really?

   17. JHJeff Hiller27:11

       ... that show on the air.

   18. KSKara Swisher27:12

       Well, Roseanne. There was a bunch before she lost her mind.

   19. JHJeff Hiller27:14

       Roseanne.

   20. KSKara Swisher27:15

       Yeah.

   21. JHJeff Hiller27:15

       [laughs] I think that's true.

   22. KSKara Swisher27:15

       There was a bunch. There were a bunch.

   23. JHJeff Hiller27:17

       I guess there's Roseanne.

   24. KSKara Swisher27:17

       Archie Bunker. Malcolm in the Middle.

   25. JHJeff Hiller27:19

       Yeah. And the, and The Middle and things like that.

   26. KSKara Swisher27:20

       Yeah.

   27. JHJeff Hiller27:20

       That's true.

   28. KSKara Swisher27:21

       Yeah.

   29. JHJeff Hiller27:21

       They were all though, they were all very much family sitcoms. And-

   30. KSKara Swisher27:24

       Right
7. 28:20 – 35:26

   How Somebody Somewhere changed everything

   1. KSKara Swisher28:20

      They're not, and they're not rich either-

   2. JHJeff Hiller28:21

      No, they're not rich

   3. KSKara Swisher28:21

      ... as, as you know.

   4. JHJeff Hiller28:22

      They're not, um, yeah, and their problems are relatable. And in the same way that, like, people, I mean, people love Widow's Bay and, and Pluribus way more [laughs] than, than, than they loved Somebody Somewhere, but I think in the same way that, like, seeing this world that is so different than ours is kind of a relief, I think there is also a truth in seeing a world that is attainable. I- is actually a, a really beautiful thing to be able to see and have. Yeah.

   5. KSKara Swisher28:51

      Yeah. The show also challenges viewers' expectations of what life in the rural Midwest can look like, right? We have, um, images of that that are probably out of date. Joel is an out gay man who goes to church and is surrounded by other queer people and straight people who love him. Um, tell, it's really interesting to ha- to, as you say, someone like yourself. Um, it, it does challenge our perceptions of what people's lives are like. I mean, I have a cousin who lives in a rural area and goes to church. He's gay. You know what I mean?

   6. JHJeff Hiller29:20

      Right.

   7. KSKara Swisher29:20

      A very similar kind of, uh-

   8. JHJeff Hiller29:22

      Yeah.

   9. KSKara Swisher29:23

      And it's-

   10. JHJeff Hiller29:23

       Well, see, and that's my, that was my thing too, is, like, I knew that person so well-

   11. KSKara Swisher29:28

       Mm-hmm

   12. JHJeff Hiller29:28

       ... even if I wasn't exactly that person. I, 'cause I don't go to church every Sunday, and I don't live in the Midwest.

   13. KSKara Swisher29:32

       Uh-huh.

   14. JHJeff Hiller29:32

       I live in New York City.

   15. KSKara Swisher29:33

       Uh-huh.

   16. JHJeff Hiller29:34

       But I still, I knew, I don't know, 10 versions of that person from my time growing up in Texas.

   17. KSKara Swisher29:42

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JHJeff Hiller29:43

       And I went to school at a, a Lutheran college in Seguin, Texas, and I knew so many out or, like, you know, glass closet out, um, uh, gay folks, both men and women, uh, who found their community in their church. But I'd never seen it portrayed in media, ever. Uh, not even in a novel. [laughs] Um, and, and it also, it wasn't playing it like his Christianity was a joke, and it wasn't, it didn't just fall into this idea of, like, w- what the news paints, uh, Christians as, uh, in general, which, you know, there are definitely those people who are sort of right-wing, but he, it's clear that Joel is a part of a progressive church. They're, they're handing out toiletry kits in one episode. They're blessing animals in another one.

   19. KSKara Swisher30:29

       Right.

   20. JHJeff Hiller30:30

       These are, this is not, um, the easy depiction of a, of a church that's just, you know, "Kill the gays." [laughs]

   21. KSKara Swisher30:38

       Right. Yeah, no, and it also challenges the idea that all gay people who live outside of cities live in fear and in the closet-

   22. JHJeff Hiller30:44

       Right

   23. KSKara Swisher30:44

       ... uh, which is interesting. I was just, uh, this week in Traverse City, uh, visiting Pete Buttigieg and Chasten.

   24. JHJeff Hiller30:49

       Wow.

   25. KSKara Swisher30:50

       Um, yeah, it was interesting. Uh, of course, they just had a very terrible thing happen to-

   26. JHJeff Hiller30:54

       Right

   27. KSKara Swisher30:54

       ... one of their kids. Uh, but it was really interesting, and I was like, "Why do you live here?" Like- Why aren't you in-- [laughs] Where'd you go? You know what I mean? It was really, and they were sort of like-

   28. JHJeff Hiller31:04

       What did they say?

   29. KSKara Swisher31:04

       ... "Kara, oh, stop being an asshole, Kara," essentially.

   30. JHJeff Hiller31:07

       [laughs]
8. 35:26 – 45:12

   Faith, community and chosen family

   1. JHJeff Hiller35:26

      I, I think of it as community, and I think of it as, um, a, a, a really, uh, uh, being beautifully sacrificial and, and helpful and kindness. And, um, so I, I don't have those negative associations with church that-

   2. KSKara Swisher35:42

      Mm-hmm

   3. JHJeff Hiller35:42

      ... a lot of people do.

   4. KSKara Swisher35:43

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JHJeff Hiller35:44

      And, and like, like you said, this new pope, even the last pope was pretty good, too.

   6. KSKara Swisher35:48

      Yeah.

   7. JHJeff Hiller35:48

      And-

   8. KSKara Swisher35:48

      He was

   9. JHJeff Hiller35:49

      ... and the-

   10. KSKara Swisher35:49

       He was a pre-pope for this pope.

   11. JHJeff Hiller35:51

       [laughs] Pre-pope. Um-

   12. KSKara Swisher35:53

       He made, he made the way

   13. JHJeff Hiller35:54

       ... American pope, making everything-

   14. KSKara Swisher35:55

       Right

   15. JHJeff Hiller35:55

       ... cool.

   16. KSKara Swisher35:56

       Right. Yeah.

   17. JHJeff Hiller35:57

       Um, but I also feel, and, you know, I used to know all of these really cool progressive nuns, too. I, and I, and I worked-- I did, after college, I, I did this, I called it a Christian commune. It's, that's a little tongue in cheek, but it, where we were actively, you know, boots on the ground, helping folks. Um, and that is the church I choose to believe in, uh, that, that, that actively helps people and, and is good for the world rather than just this current church that gets all the press that's about, like, uh, just, I don't know, hating on people

   18. KSKara Swisher36:32

       Mm-hmm

   19. JHJeff Hiller36:33

       Just period. I was gonna say [laughs]

   20. KSKara Swisher36:34

       Yeah

   21. JHJeff Hiller36:34

       I was gonna list some people-

   22. KSKara Swisher36:36

       They're focused on James Talarico

   23. JHJeff Hiller36:36

       But there's a lot of people.

   24. KSKara Swisher36:36

       They're cha- focused on James Talarico this week.

   25. JHJeff Hiller36:38

       Right. [laughs] That's true.

   26. KSKara Swisher36:39

       So, so that particular branch of the church, the hatred of-

   27. JHJeff Hiller36:41

       It's true. It's gonna-

   28. KSKara Swisher36:42

       Um

   29. JHJeff Hiller36:42

       ... lead you into whatever women's bathrooms-

   30. KSKara Swisher36:44

       I'm fascinated by how they're-
9. 45:12 – 45:53

   What gives Jeff Hiller hope

   1. JHJeff Hiller45:12

      Yeah. [laughs]

   2. KSKara Swisher45:12

      Yes, yes, yeah. Exactly. Anyway, good luck with next season, and-

   3. JHJeff Hiller45:16

      Thank you

   4. KSKara Swisher45:17

      ... amazing job.

   5. JHJeff Hiller45:18

      Thank you.

   6. KSKara Swisher45:19

      Today's show was produced by Michelle Aloy, Katherine Milsop, Madeleine Lapentte Dubbe, Megan Bernie, and Kaylin Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Katherine Barner, Dave Shaw, and Julia Sharpe Levine. And our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following this show, you're sleeping well. If not, you're eating Taco Bell with the lettuce. Thanks for watching. See you on Thursday. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 45:53