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On with Kara SwisherThe “Blockers” Who Tried to Stop Trump, and the “Cowards” Who Chose Not To
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At a glance
WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT
Lewis and Weisberg map Trump-era resistance, capitulation, and institutional damage
- Michael Lewis describes “blockers” as mostly nonpartisan career civil servants who were labeled obstacles by DOGE for trying to prevent laws and norms from being violated.
- Jacob Weisberg explains his focus on prominent institutional leaders who understood Trump’s danger yet capitulated in 2025, driven by forces like money, ambition, and fear.
- The conversation contrasts Trump’s first term as comparatively chaotic with the second term as a faster, more competent power grab aimed at institutions, personnel systems, and enforcement mechanisms.
- They argue that sowing mistrust in government can be strategically useful to Trump (and possibly Musk), with real-world consequences if public systems become genuinely unreliable.
- They debate what accountability could look like after the midterms, emphasizing the need for a clear public narrative about corruption while acknowledging political constraints like veto power and lack of Republican cooperation.
IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING
5 ideasTrump’s second term is portrayed as a far more organized bid to capture institutions.
He describes a shift from a first-term “indifference” to a second-term “energetic power grab,” including efforts to impose loyalty expectations on a nonpartisan workforce and to seize control of quasi-independent institutions.
“Blockers” are depicted as civil servants doing their jobs, not partisan saboteurs.
He says the term came from Elon Musk telling his team to find “blockers” in agencies, and Lewis frames many of these people as nonpartisan professionals trying to prevent illegal or norm-breaking actions rather than obstructing politics.
The “capitulators” are portrayed as people who knew better and still gave in.
He says he chose subjects who understood Trump’s danger and had previously resisted him, but then capitulated amid broader “institutional waves” across law firms, universities, tech, business, and finance.
Capitulation is framed as a mix of self-interest and intimidation, not a single cause.
Weisberg says the simplest through-line is money, with additional drivers including ambition, fear, careerism, and fear of violence, and he emphasizes that motives vary by individual.
They warn that engineered mistrust can turn government from “imperfect” into “unlivable.”
Lewis argues Americans often claim not to trust government, yet behave as if they do (food safety, planes, water), and warns that pushing mistrust far enough can make daily life feel fundamentally unsafe.
WORDS WORTH SAVING
5 quotesI don't think we even know what it feels like to genuinely mistrust our government. There's this surface mistrust. If you take it to a place which is where it's headed now, where it is actually untrustworthy, where you can't eat the food, you can't fly on the planes, I mean, it's a completely different environment.
— Michael Lewis
If you only... If you had to do it in one word, it would be money.
— Unattributed
Once you accept that as a principle, it's, the game is over.
— Michael Lewis
Trump can't function in a trusting environment, that Trump does better if nobody trusts each other, because he's so personally untrustworthy, right?
— Michael Lewis
When people are no longer afraid, they'll discover their courage.
— Michael Lewis
SPEAKERS
Michael Lewis
guestJournalist and bestselling author known for narrative nonfiction about politics, finance, and institutions.
Kara Swisher
hostJournalist and host of "On with Kara Swisher," covering tech, media, and politics.
Nicole Wallace
cameoMSNBC host of "Deadline: White House" and political journalist/commentator.
High quality AI-generated summary created from speaker-labeled transcript.
