The new Democratic Party is leaving the Old Guard behind

Amanda Litman 0:00 If you don't like DSA, it is possible for the establishment wings of the party to offer a different vision. Like, they could avail themselves of selling something that would solve the problems and speaking to the anger people feel. The fact that they have instead chosen to punch left or to, you know, blame the, the young people who want these wild and crazy things, like, make an argument.

Roshni Nedungadi 0:21 [upbeat music] It is on.

Kara Swisher 0:27 Hi, everyone. Progressive candidates are toppling Democratic incumbents, and it could reshape the 2026 midterms. Today, I'm joined by Amanda Litman, Adam Jentleson, and Roshni Nedungadi to break down what's driving this political shift and what it means for the future of the Democratic Party and our country as a whole. Don't go anywhere. Adam, Amanda, and Roshni, uh, thank you for coming on On.

Adam Jentleson 0:51 Great to be here.

Amanda Litman 0:51 Thank you for having us.

Roshni Nedungadi 0:52 Thanks.

Kara Swisher 0:53 So there's been a lot of ink spilled on the rise of these insurgent candidates in the Democratic Party. Um, I- I'd love for each of you, what, what is the lens through which you're, uh, viewing this divide? Is it moderate versus centrist, insider versus outsider, young versus old? Why don't we start with you, Adam, then Amanda, then Roshni?

Adam Jentleson 1:12 I mean, there, there's hu- there's definitely an ideological component to it, right? You can't avoid that. I mean, there-- You know, the, the platforms that a lot of these insurgent candidates are running on are, you know, very clear. They often have a lot in common, things like Medicare for All. The war in Gaza is a huge issue driving a lot of this. But I think you also-- You know, if, if you were doing all those positions, but you were, you weren't-- didn't have the outsider versus insider dynamic, they wouldn't be getting the traction they're getting. So I think it's a combination of those two things. They happen to be young. They are definitely outsiders. But they're also-- A lot of the passion behind them, what's driving the movement, does have these strong ideological components to it as well.

Kara Swisher 1:46 Okay. Amanda?

Amanda Litman 1:48 So Run for Something, the organization I run, had nearly 100,000 people sign up to run for office in the last 18 months. That's more-

Kara Swisher 1:54 Uh-huh

Amanda Litman 1:54 ... than we had in the entirety of Trump's first term. And the thing that we heard this time around that was different than Trump 1.0 was very specific frustration with the Democratic Party, with this sense that, like, "My leaders are not fighting for me. They're not showing up for me. They don't care about me. They haven't delivered for me. I am not going to wait my turn. [chuckles] I'm not gonna get to the back of the line. I am done being told to just, like, be patient." So when

Amanda Litman 2:16 I look at these insurgent candidates, you know, in congressional levels, we're seeing them on the state leg levels, on the municipal levels, it is a deep frustration with the status quo. I do think it is generational in many ways. It's not a coincidence that so many of them are Millennials and Gen Z leaders. But it is-- It's not even outsider so much as anti-return to normal and anti-e-establishment as so much as the establishment is the status quo.

Kara Swisher 2:40 Roshni?

Roshni Nedungadi 2:41 Yeah, very much agree with what Amanda was saying. And, um, I'm a partner at HIT Strategies, which is a full-scale public opinion research firm. Um, we do expansive voter population research, but we also focus in on audiences that are typically underrepresented in voter research, so people of color, young voters, women, LGBTQ, and all of the intersections of those voters. And they really make up the core of the Democratic Party, and I feel like should be the leaders on what the Democratic Party positions are. And exactly like Amanda said, over the last few years, we've been hearing them say they are fed up with the Democratic Party. They don't see elected leaders as fighting for them. They, um, don't believe that the systems are advocating for them, and they believe that the Democratic, uh, candidates are taking their votes for granted. And so all of this is creating an environment for them that is opening a lane for a progressive, more progressive insurgent left, who are more responsive to the issues of the day, to step in and fill the gap that they feel is lacking in their candidates.

Kara Swisher 3:56 You know, it's interesting. Uh, y- even though, Adam, you mentioned Gaza, you didn't mention policies as much as the vibe, right? I guess the feeling that people aren't representing th-them on policies. Is that correct?

Adam Jentleson 4:07 That's, that's right, but I, I really think you can't understate how important the, the Gaza conflict is to a lot of this. I really think it's-

Kara Swisher 4:13 I, I, I have two sons, 20, 21 and 20... I know.

Adam Jentleson 4:17 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 4:17 I am very-- I hear it.

Adam Jentleson 4:18 It's, it's hugely important.

Kara Swisher 4:19 I hear you.

Adam Jentleson 4:19 And, and I think that's-

Kara Swisher 4:20 Yeah

Adam Jentleson 4:20 ... 'cause, you know, there, there are young anti-establishment candidates running in other races who sort of don't fall into this category of, of left-wing insurgents. You know, people like Bobby Pulido, who's running in the Rio Grande Valley in Texas, Bob Brooks, who's running in Pennsylvania's Seventh District. You know, they're anti-es- they're outsiders. They're anti-establishment too. Um, but, but I think what's a differentiator between them and this sort of insurgent left is those ideological components, and there are some policy overlap with them as well. But I think it's, you know, you couldn't be included in this left-wing insurgency that, that is largely driven by the DSA and others if you had, um, a centrist position on, um, the Israeli conflict or if you were unwilling to call it a genocide, and I think that's a, I think that's a big, big differentiator.

Kara Swisher 5:03 Right. Right. I would say that. I just, I, I just have noticed from my children, p- two of whom have very different political views, interestingly, they do come together on the same idea of focus on the Democrats. They don't like Trump, that's for sure, and none of you mentioned not liking Trump as part... Correct, Amanda?

Amanda Litman 5:19 It's the water people are swimming in.

Kara Swisher 5:21 Right.

Amanda Litman 5:22 It's not the bait that's hooking them, 'cause you have to remember, for this generation of leaders, this new generation of leaders in particular, it's always been Trump. Like-

Kara Swisher 5:28 Mm-hmm

Amanda Litman 5:28 ... it's, it has been the Trump era since they came into political awareness. For most-

Kara Swisher 5:32 Mm-hmm

Amanda Litman 5:32 ... of them, at least, especially if you're, you know, Gen Z, the first election you voted on, Trump was on the ballot.

Kara Swisher 5:37 What do you think, Roshni?

Roshni Nedungadi 5:38 Yeah. I mean, he is wildly unpopular, especially among the Democratic base. And, um, when we're in focus groups with a lot of voters and trying to talk about

Amanda Litman 5:50 All of the bad things that Trump has been doing.

Kara Swisher 5:52 Mm-hmm.

Amanda Litman 5:52 They are very well aware of what is going on in-

Kara Swisher 5:56 Mm-hmm

Amanda Litman 5:56 ... Trump's administration. They hear it from their social media. They hear it from the news. They hear it from people in their community. We're not giving them new information when we talk about Trump's-

Kara Swisher 6:08 Mm-hmm

Amanda Litman 6:08 ... bad policies and bad decisions. So it's very much, uh, the context that they're operating under already.

Kara Swisher 6:15 Already, and they just want someone to do something about it, I think-

Amanda Litman 6:17 Exactly

Kara Swisher 6:18 ... the correct... So let's talk about some of the candidates, speaking of doing something about it, and races that represent what we're talking about here. Progressives saw two big wins in Colorado this month in the governor's race. State Attorney General Phil Weiser beat Democratic Senator Michael Bennet, and Democratic Socialist Malak Kiros unseated Democratic Representative Diana DeGette, who'd held the seat, the Denver seat, for almost 30 years. Adam, Colorado is a blue state, but not a bright blue state. Talk about the dynamics of this, these races in particular, and how the insurgents were able to oust these incumbents.

Adam Jentleson 6:49 Yeah. It's, it's ironic because if, if you know Michael Bennet, um, as I has- have had the privilege of getting to know him a little bit over the years, this guy was, you know, very against the current Democratic leadership. He had lots of problems with Tu- with Chuck Schumer. You know, he was a big critic, both, uh, in private and in public. Um, but I think, you know, it wasn't part of his public identity in a major way, and that is ultimately what really sort of did him in in this race because he was seen as a D- DC insider. Phil Weiser, who beat him, isn't exactly a left-wing progressive. This definitely sort of is evidence for the idea that this is a lot more about outsider versus insider because Phil Weiser, you know, doesn't adopt Medicare For All as one of his policy positions. He actually, uh, is in line with us at Searchlight on, on free primary care for all. Um, but then on the, on the House race side, you kind of had the opposite dynamic where Diana DeGette is a co-sponsor of Medicare For All, right? A big advocate for it and has been for a long time, but she didn't have as far left a position on Israel and Gaza, and that was an, that was part of the avenue that, that Malak Kiros and others used against her. Also, the fact that she's taking corporate money and some of these other aspects that, that, you know, were ultimately what, what did her in. So it's, it's a mix of things, and, and there are different things in different races, but, you know, some combination of outsider versus insider and some of these deep ideological issues that are driving this, when those things come together, incumbents really gotta watch out because they're, they could really be in trouble.

Kara Swisher 8:09 Right. Now, in New York, three progressives, uh, backed by a New York City mayor, Zohran Mamdani, ousted House incumbents. Two of those candidates are also members of the Democratic Socialists of America. House Speaker Hakeem Jeffries was not pleased with, uh, uh, Mamdani's decision to endorse these candidates. Amanda, what lessons do mainstream Democrats still need to learn about what's resonating with voters right now? And, and certainly the mayor is, for certain.

Amanda Litman 8:35 You know, what I thought was so interesting about those races, Claire Valdez and Daria Ilesa Chevalier, they, while the, they got the attention for their comments on Gaza, and I think that speaks to sort of, like, their moral character, their campaigns were really focused on, on, like, cost of living issues. It was about housing. It was about childcare. It was about infrastructure. Like, the things that they were knocking doors about were the same things that Mamdani was talking about in his campaign. It was, "You have problems. We have solutions, and the current leadership has not delivered them." I mean, in many ways, it speaks to kind of what Trump was getting at so long ago, which is like, "This, this swamp is not serving you. I'm gonna solve all your problems. I can fix it." This new class of Democratic leaders and, you know, DSA or not, they are saying, "We hear you. We hear how f- broken you feel everything is, how much it feels like the system is not working for you." I don't care even if you're aligned with them or not in terms of, like, policies. These folks in power have not solved it.

Kara Swisher 9:30 Right.

Amanda Litman 9:30 They just haven't. We've given them their chance. They've been in office, in some cases, as long as you've been alive. Throw them out. Give us a new try.

Kara Swisher 9:37 Right. Now, Roshni, uh, Republicans are already trying to tie Democrats to Mamdani and these D- other DSA candidates. M- I've never heard the word communism so much since I studied, uh, in school, but, uh, for young voters and voters of color, how, how potent an attack line is that?

Amanda Litman 9:52 You know, I actually think that he's very popular nationally and has-

Kara Swisher 9:57 Yeah

Amanda Litman 9:57 ... only grown in popularity-

Kara Swisher 9:58 I would agree. Yeah

Amanda Litman 9:59 ... since he's been elected. Um-

Kara Swisher 10:01 Mm-hmm

Amanda Litman 10:01 ... and so his ideas and the policies that he is, um, pushing, and the candidates that are pushing these ideas and policies are very, very popular nationally. Um, and so I don't think he, he is as effective of a boogeyman for Republicans because people are seeing him make real change in New York City-

Kara Swisher 10:23 Mm-hmm

Amanda Litman 10:23 ... and seeing the voters of New York City be really appreciative of the work that he's doing.

Kara Swisher 10:27 What, w- why are they doing it then? They must have some, there must be some poll they're dragging out, or is just, is it a knee-jerk, say communist, and hope it works?

Amanda Litman 10:35 I, I think the label of communism and socialism still has not caught up to Mamdani himself. I think-

Kara Swisher 10:44 Mm-hmm

Amanda Litman 10:44 ... voters are still unwilling to vote for a candidate that is explicitly socialist, and so the label is, is a potent attack. However, using him in addition to the label, I feel like-

Kara Swisher 10:57 S- doesn't work

Amanda Litman 10:58 ... cancel each other out.

Kara Swisher 10:59 A- Adam, how do you look at that, and then-

Adam Jentleson 11:02 I-

Kara Swisher 11:02 ... Amanda

Adam Jentleson 11:02 ... look, regardless of what you thought about Mamdani coming in, I think purely as a sort of game appreciates game, you know, perspective, as a political, you know, observer, no one's doing it better than he is right now. I mean, he's really doing an incredible job. And I think that if you're trying to sort of draw lessons from it, you know, it's, it's his energy. You know, yesterday, he was watching the World Cup games at Rikers Island. You know, I mean, this guy is everywhere, and everything he's doing is conveying that, that he sees all of New York. You know, his love for the city is infectious. Um, but he's also been very pragmatic in his governing choices so far, right? I mean, he, and he, he sort of, uh, distanced himself from his previous comments about defunding the police. He embraced Jess Tish, the New York City police commissioner, and kept her on, even though a lot of folks on the left wanted him to fire her. Um, and he embraced a lot of sort of the critics on the sort of abundance, you know, YIMBY movement who have a, you know, sort of deregulatory approach to housing and the ideas you need to build more to lower prices. He's really shifted in their direction and embraced a lot of their ideas. So part of what he's doing well, you know, a lot of it's his energy, his youth, his enthusiasm, his good looks, his charm, all that comes through, but he's also governing in a, in a smart and pragmatic way, and I think those two things together. The last point I'd make is that crime is way down. You know, crime is way down. He's not dealing with huge influxes of immigrants, um, being shipped up from Texas, and I think some of the fundamental conditions for his affordability message to break through, uh, are those sorts of things, of having, you know, New Yorkers feeling like they have basic security in their homes, in their neighborhood, in their everyday lives. That really clears the way-

Kara Swisher 12:32 Right

Adam Jentleson 12:32 ... for that focus on affordability and day-to-day life improvements.

Kara Swisher 12:35 A-Amanda?

Amanda Litman 12:36 I would add one other thing, which is that he helps the credibility gap that Democrats have right now. You know, within eight days of taking office, he did that press conference where he announced the expansion of three K and t- and beginning a pilot program for two K towards universal childcare in the city. He's, you know, working towards fast and free buses. He has frozen the rent. You know, whether you maybe liked those policies or not, which, especially as a parent of toddlers, love [chuckles] the universal childcare, it is really proof that you can keep your promises. And I think one of the challenges the Democratic Party has right now is even if you promise the moon, voters don't believe we'll deliver it. They don't believe we will do what we say. So I honestly think making him the face of the party in many ways, as someone who promises to do big things and then actually gets them done, helps close that credibility gap, which we're gonna have a big problem with going into 2028, 'cause all of these people running for Congress right now, you know, they're promising big legislation.

Kara Swisher 13:29 Right.

Amanda Litman 13:29 They're not going to be able to govern-

Kara Swisher 13:30 Mm-hmm

Amanda Litman 13:30 ... until Trump is no longer president.

Kara Swisher 13:32 That's correct.

Amanda Litman 13:32 So-

Kara Swisher 13:32 That is absolutely correct

Amanda Litman 13:33 ... it's one of the challenges-

Kara Swisher 13:34 Yeah

Amanda Litman 13:34 ... of this moment.

Kara Swisher 13:35 Support for this show comes from Built. There's no way around it, housing is expensive. Rent, mortgage, it doesn't matter which one you're paying. Nobody likes letting that big chunk of change go every month. Built was created to help ease the sting. Becoming a Built member means earning points on every housing payment, no matter where you live. Redeem Built points for flights, hotels, Lyft rides, amazon.com purchases, future housing payments, and more. On top of that, you can access their agentic neighborhood concierge. It's basically an assistant in the Built app that connects to both your home and over 50,000 merchant partners. It can pay your rent, make dinner reservations, book fitness classes, schedule a Lyft ride, and more. It helps you out while automatically applying your member benefits along the way. Built is not just for renters anymore. It works for mortgages now as well. When your housing payment is one of your biggest monthly expenses, you might as well earn points on it. Download the Built app and join membership for where you live at joinbuilt.com/kara. That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T.com/kara, K-A-R-A. Use our link so they know we sent you. So every episode, we get a question from an outside expert. Here's yours.

Speaker 14:47 [swoosh] Hi. I'm Liz Smith, and I am a Democratic strategist and advisor to majority Democrats in the bench. My question for you is, since 2024, we have seen Democratic voters embrace a lot of anti-establishment candidates and insurgent candidates and all of the energy around them. But of course, we've seen the pitfalls with this, with the Maine Senate race. So my question for you is, how do Democrats harness that energy?

Speaker 15:14 And i- given your preferences, what do you think the basic vetting standards or thresholds should be for outsider candidates going forward so we avoid another Platner-type situation?

Kara Swisher 15:26 [swoosh] Adam, Amanda, and then Roshni.

Adam Jentleson 15:30 Yeah, I think this is where you, where you can sort of envision a big tent, right? This is where, where big tentism, which is sort of a core principle for us at The Searchlight Institute, really comes through, which is like, you know, welcome DSA into the party, but for folks who are running in, in tougher races, you know, they, they should have the anti-establishment vibe. They should criticize Democratic leadership because it very much deserves to be criticized, but then, you know, don't take some of these far-left positions that are gonna be hard to defend in swing states and, and purple states. You know, Maine is still pretty much a blue state. Kamala Harris won it by, I think, seven points. You know, so Platner could, could have probably gotten away with some of those left-wing positions, you know, d- if he hadn't had the scandals. And then, yeah, I mean, I think vetting people properly, uh, is, is a good idea. And I mean, there were signs. You know, I supported-- I think a lot of us have-- It's worth doing some introspection. I mean, I supported him, um, probably long past when there were a lot of red flags that should've signaled where this was going. We knew the circumstantial information about him having this long, you know, decades-long struggles with PTSD and a penchant for violence and, you know, dis-disrespectful and s-dismissive attitudes towards sexual assault. I mean, like, there were signs, right? [chuckles] And so it wasn't a shock. So, you know, the, the, the lack of vetting was bad, and then I think, you know, ignoring a lot of these signs was also a mistake in retrospect. But fortunately, we'll get a, hopefully get a, you know, good candidate in that race soon and, and beat Susan Collins.

Kara Swisher 16:48 Right. Amanda?

Amanda Litman 16:50 So Run for Something over the last 10 years has endorsed more than 4,000 candidates. We do deep vetting on each one. We do background checks, we do social media scrubs, we do local operatives who gut check us and tell us the context. We've had to rescind endorsements less than 10 times in 10 years. It is possible to run a candidate recruitment program at scale that brings in people with integrity and also strong character. Now, to Adam's point about the big tent, the way we have f- structured this is that we are tight on values and flexible on policy, knowing that those values are gonna show up differently in a city council race in New York than they might in a school board race in Alaska. That's how we were able to elect, like, a DSA person to the Atlanta City Council, but also a former Republican who left the party after January 6th, so was there all the way through Trump one, in rural Pennsylvania, who's now running for State House, Andrew Harvell. It is possible. I do think you have to operate not as a kingmaker. I think one of the challenges that happened with Platner is they were doing, you know, Mad Libs-style candidate recruitment.

Kara Swisher 17:48 Yeah.

Amanda Litman 17:48 We are looking for-

Kara Swisher 17:49 It was like-

Amanda Litman 17:49 ... X kind of occupation, an X-

Kara Swisher 17:51 Yeah

Amanda Litman 17:51 ... demographic with X kind of political engagement, because that's-

Kara Swisher 17:54 Theirs

Amanda Litman 17:54 ... who we think can win. You cannot do top-down kingmaking. We have learned this. Voters smell the bullshit. They don't like it, and it inevitably backfires, as we saw-

Kara Swisher 18:04 Mm-hmm

Amanda Litman 18:04 ... in Maine.

Kara Swisher 18:05 Mm-hmm.

Amanda Litman 18:05 We cannot puppet master candidates anymore, if we ever could. What we have to do is empower people who say, "You know what? I think I can see myself in leadership," and then give them the tools to succeed, and do that in as wide as a way as we can. Like o- throw the doors open to as many people as possible.

Kara Swisher 18:20 Mm-hmm.

Amanda Litman 18:20 If we try to manufacture people, we'll get either inauthentic, unvetted, or the combination of the two that will- voters will reject.

Kara Swisher 18:28 Right, or something ha- blows up in that case. Uh, uh, R- Roshni?

Roshni Nedungadi 18:33 I think that this is an opportunity for us. I mean, we saw what happened, uh, to the Republican Party when the Tea Party took over. We have those lessons to learn. We are experiencing the same groundswell of anger from our base, anger and frustration. We have the opportunity now to listen to that and amend the way that we are running candidates and pr- uh, promoting policy and, um, just treating our voters. And so I, I think we just have to stop digging in our heels and actually listen to the voters and do hard things in order to prevent candidate disaster.

Kara Swisher 19:11 Candidate disaster can come in many forms, though, correct? I mean, presumably, this one was unvetted, and he seemed to be a king made, essentially, or pul- plucked out of rather than he was interested in doing it in the first place.

Amanda Litman 19:23 And I think the flip to that is also worth noting, which was that he was up in opposition to also someone who was not, if plucked from obscurity, chosen for this race. Like, Schumer et al recruited Janet Mills, who did not want to run, and you can tell because [scoffs] she did not then throw herself into this opening now, did not really want to be campaigning, was deeply unpopular as governor and was so obviously not the right fit for an anti-establishment, anti-gerontocratic moment. People did not want the 78-year-old governor to be, like, dragged out of retirement to run for office. And that, I think, is what made so much of the last couple of months in Maine so frustrating, is that it actually didn't have to be this way. It didn't have to be Platner versus Mills and then ultimately the outcome against Collins. There was a really interesting, diverse field of folks running for governor. Some of them could have run for Senate, as we're now seeing. There's a pretty exciting bench in Maine that we're starting to build up. Like-

Kara Swisher 20:15 Mm-hmm

Amanda Litman 20:16 ... there are villains on nearly every side of this story.

Kara Swisher 20:19 Right, right.

Amanda Litman 20:19 And I think it is worth, like-

Kara Swisher 20:21 Yeah, it is a good point

Amanda Litman 20:21 ... pointing to that as we go.

Kara Swisher 20:22 Yes, absolutely. They tried to-- Schumer did try to king-make there and made a mistake there. Um, the next big test will be Michigan Senate primary. Progressive Abdul El-Sayed is challenging Representative Haley Ste- Stevens. Uh, the third candidate, who was trying to strike the middle ground between the two, Michigan Senator Mallory McMorrow, dropped out. She just never caught on. Democrats

Kara Swisher 20:42 have to hold onto the seat if they want any chance to take back the Senate, but for progressive, it's their last chance to show one of their Senate candidates can win in a purple state. It would be a big win if, uh, if he won. Um, the primary is August 4th. What are you all watching right now? Uh, Roshni, you start, and then Amanda, then Adam.

Roshni Nedungadi 21:01 Yeah, the-- I, I've been looking at the polling. Uh, it's going back and forth, but it seems like he's gaining a lot of momentum.

Kara Swisher 21:08 Mm-hmm.

Roshni Nedungadi 21:08 He is running a similar playbook as Mamdani in New York City. He is, uh, money back in your pockets, money out of, uh, uh... Sorry. Hold corporations accountable and take corporate money out of politics, Medicare for All, um, reducing cost of living for voters, and, uh, reducing that economic crunch that voters are feeling. And he's very consistently on message with those policy points, and voters are really, um, resonating with that message in Michigan.

Kara Swisher 21:40 Mm-hmm. What about you, Amanda?

Amanda Litman 21:41 [sighs] I'm looking at the spending discrepancy. They have spent, I think, over 50 million on behalf of Haley Stevens. She is outspending, um, El-Sayed, I believe, 10 to one at this point. If that's how much you have to spend to get her over the finish line in the primary, is there gonna be the enthusiasm for her in the general if she wins this? I, I don't know. [scoffs] And I'm keeping an eye on that, of like, h-how... Can you... Again, can you king-make in a state-

Kara Swisher 22:08 Mm-hmm

Amanda Litman 22:08 ... like this?

Kara Swisher 22:09 Mm-hmm. Adam?

Adam Jentleson 22:10 I'm looking at whether, um, El-Sayed decides to make some of the pragmatic choices in the way that Mamdani has in order to appeal to a broader audience as we approach the general election. Because, you know, he was pressed on a CNN interview recently on his previous comments supporting Defund the Police, and he stood by them, and I thought that was unfortunate. You know, that's-- There are real electability concerns, but it's not about, you know, anything about him as a person. It's about some of these positions that he's taken that are gonna be difficult to defend in a Michigan general election race. Now, on the other hand, similar to the dynamic in Maine, I'm no big fan of Haley Stevens either. I don't think she's been a particularly compelling candidate. There's not a really strong electability argument for her either because her past performance, you know, her numbers are okay, but they're not amazing. So it's another one of these dynamics where the, the choice is difficult. You can-- Uh, El-Sayed is probably a better political athlete. He's very talented. He's great on social media. Um, but he has taken some positions that unless he starts making some pragmatic choices, and there's still time left for him to do so, I do think those things are gonna be liabilities in a general election.

Kara Swisher 23:09 Do either of you think... A-Amanda, do you think that, or Roshni?

Amanda Litman 23:12 I think he has some liabilities. I also-- I go back and forth a little bit because on the one hand, like, if he genuinely does believe we should defund the police, I, I do think there's, like, a... or whatever statement he's saying, like, there is some value in really saying what you believe.

Kara Swisher 23:25 Right. Right.

Amanda Litman 23:26 Even if he knows that it's not a practical position to take, and I think part of that-

Kara Swisher 23:29 Mm-hmm

Amanda Litman 23:29 ... is it can signal to people that they, they can trust you.

Kara Swisher 23:32 Mm-hmm.

Amanda Litman 23:33 So, you know, I, I think this is where you get into some tension here of, you know, do you contort your policies-

Kara Swisher 23:38 Be a center

Amanda Litman 23:39 ... for an electorate, or do you-

Kara Swisher 23:40 Yeah

Amanda Litman 23:40 ... stay true to what you value? Like- It's a tough call, and I think you have to be a really talented communicator to be able to do it.

Adam Jentleson 23:46 Well, Mamdani, you know, Mamdani just 100% reversed himself on, you know, apologizing-

Amanda Litman 23:50 He did

Adam Jentleson 23:50 ... to the, to the New York City police, uh, officers and, and just distanced himself from defund the police. And as we've talked about here, he's wildly popular and doing a great job. So I think it's possible to do it with some-

Kara Swisher 24:00 Well, he's already mayor, though

Adam Jentleson 24:01 ... with some frameworks in mind.

Kara Swisher 24:01 He's already, he's-

Adam Jentleson 24:01 He's already mayor. But, you know, listen, woke one was crazy. Everybody said a lot of stuff that they probably-

Kara Swisher 24:05 Oh, yeah

Adam Jentleson 24:05 ... you know, got caught up in the moment. I think there's also a level of forgiveness of saying, "Hey, listen, we, we all got a little carried away there. Um, and with, with the benefit of hindsight, you know, I've, I've decided to, to sort of reevaluate those things." People, people don't, you know, mind people changing their mind if they're open and honest about their reasoning there.

Amanda Litman 24:20 Yeah, I think it comes to whether he can, like, articulate how he got to a new place.

Kara Swisher 24:24 Right.

Amanda Litman 24:24 And I think Mamdani's able to do it in part because he has the trust of voters. I don't say he does, like, does, has not earned that yet.

Kara Swisher 24:31 Right.

Amanda Litman 24:31 I think he's still got a little bit of work to do there.

Kara Swisher 24:33 Roshni, do people, are, are people allowed to change their mind if, even if it's not genuine necessarily?

Roshni Nedungadi 24:38 I think if it's a genuine change, then yes, they are allowed. Voters really, really value authenticity in candidates. And to voters, that means staying true to your beliefs. And so I think if you can explain to voters, "Here's why I believed in defund the police, and here is why I have now changed my mind," that's not just, you know, "I saw poll numbers that say it's unpopular, and so now I'm going to change my mind on it," or, "My big cor- corporate donors have told me this is not a popular position for me to hold, so now I'm going to flip-flop on it." If they can display that level of authenticity, I think it's totally appropriate to change, change your mind.

Kara Swisher 25:20 All right. Let's talk about what's driving the rise of these insurgent candidates. Amanda, like

Kara Swisher 25:24 you mentioned, Run for Something saw a record number of people sign up to run for office after the 2024 election, mainly because they were angry at the Democratic Party. Talk about more specific ways these people felt the party was failing them and how it's driving where we are. I mean, they're, they're-- Angry is one thing, but particularly, what's the specific thing?

Amanda Litman 25:43 When I look back at '25 and '26, the biggest moments we saw for candidate recruitment were first the big, first, first big wave of DOGE firings. So this frustration with the federal government and, like, how, how could you let people lose their jobs? And a lot of it was laid-off federal workers who had public service experience and wanted to, to run in a different way. The second was Schumer's failure to, um, resolve things during the shut- first shutdown fight. They were pissed. They're like, "How can you hand off our government to this guy? I thought we said that this was the end of democracy. If this is actually an existential crisis-

Kara Swisher 26:13 Yeah

Amanda Litman 26:14 ... why are you playing games with him?"

Kara Swisher 26:16 Yeah.

Amanda Litman 26:16 The third big moment was Mamdani's win. Like, after Mamdani won in June of last year, we had 10,000 people sign up in those two weeks.

Kara Swisher 26:23 Mm-hmm.

Amanda Litman 26:23 I think part of that was, you know, his joy, the inspiration, but also this idea that the establishment-

Kara Swisher 26:28 He can do it

Amanda Litman 26:28 ... is not unbeatable. They just go unchallenged. And the, the last big one was right after the elections in the fall when you see people like, you know, yes, Mamdani, but also Spanberger, uh, Mikie Sherrill in New Jersey, just like, "Oh yeah, people can do this. Good people can run, and good people can win." Now, I will say the thing that I have come back to a bunch over the last year is how much housing comes up in these conversations, and in particular, young people feeling like Democrats have not done enough to make it possible to buy a home. They have not done enough for renters. And it is, I think, part of a larger sense that young people do not have agency over their lives. They don't have that ability to choose where they live, where they work, how they live, if they can start a family. Housing is the number one issue people are talking about when they talk, talk about running for office.

Kara Swisher 27:14 Mm-hmm.

Amanda Litman 27:14 And I think it's connected to how young voters are feeling.

Kara Swisher 27:17 That's a very good point. The political strategist now, James Carville, recently unloaded on these Democratic socialists and progressive candidates trying to challenge incumbents. He said they were, quote, "So fucking stupid, I don't know what to say about it." Adam, you mentioned the need for a big tent approach. Do you care what Carville has to say about this? I mean, he was quite speaking of gerontocracy. Uh, to what extent is he emblematic of the generational divide that's animating some of these candidates?

Adam Jentleson 27:40 I think he's very, I think he's very emblematic of the generational divide.

Kara Swisher 27:42 Yeah.

Adam Jentleson 27:42 You know? And I, and I think he's, I think he's wrong on this. I think we, we... Look, you know, [chuckles] the D- the, there was a, there was a picture on Twitter the other day of a DSA meeting, right? And there were two things that I took away from it, and h- one was that half the people in the room were wearing face masks, right? And so in July of 2026, that is an indication that a lot of these people, you know, are not representative of the broader American public, right? But the other thing that was equally important, if not more important, was that the room was packed. And you had, you know, 50 or so people, you know, deeply committed to the civic process, to, who cared deeply about issues, who were debating, you know, Robert's Rules of Order and, and all these sort of, you know, arcane procedures that, you know, the DNC would, would be, should be extremely jealous of that level of commitment and energy and organization, right? And so, you know, we, we may not agree on every issue, um, but that passion and that commitment has a place in our big tent, and it sh- it must have a big place in our, a, a place in our big tent. You know, and we can all disagree on issues and say what we believe and where we draw lines and distinguish ourselves and what's right for New York City is not right for Texas. Um, but that energy is incredibly valuable, and we would be very dumb as a party to try to run it out of the party.

Kara Swisher 28:49 Why are people like him doing that, then?

Amanda Litman 28:52 It threatens people like his power. I mean, the institutions will always protect himself. Carville and many other of the older leaders like him are creatures of these institutions. They have built them from the ground up. They are scared. When we talk about the leaders who got us into this mess will not be the ones to get us out of it, we also mean people like him. This is not to say he did not do some good things in his service, but that dude does not understand what it's like to be a 20 or 30-something in the United States right now. He does not understand why people are angry. He and so many others of his sort of generation of leaders, both literally and figuratively, are so removed from where people are. And I would just posit, if you don't like DSA, it is possible for the establishment wings of the party or the Old Guard, such as it is, to offer a different vision.

Kara Swisher 29:38 Mm-hmm.

Amanda Litman 29:38 Like, they could avail themselves of selling something that would solve the problems and speaking to the anger people feel.

Kara Swisher 29:43 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Amanda Litman 29:43 The fact that they have instead chosen to punch left or to, you know-

Kara Swisher 29:47 Yeah

Amanda Litman 29:47 ... blame the, the young people who want these wild and crazy things, like

Kara Swisher 29:51 Make an argument

Roshni Nedungadi 29:52 I would add that I, I, I think the older generation, too, often minimizes the intelligence of young voters, and because a lot of young voters get their information on social media or from their friends, assume that it's not, uh, as good of information as they're getting in newspapers or on cable TV. And, um, I-- at least what we're seeing in our research and talking to young folks, that could not be farther from the truth. They're so well-informed on the issues.

Kara Swisher 30:22 I would agree.

Roshni Nedungadi 30:22 They really understand what's going on.

Kara Swisher 30:24 Mm-hmm.

Roshni Nedungadi 30:24 They are just saying consistently over and over again, they're fed up with the system.

Kara Swisher 30:29 Right.

Roshni Nedungadi 30:29 And so I think it's a really wrong take.

Kara Swisher 30:31 Right. I, I do. Again, I think of my sons. They're very well-informed. They're very-- They just don't agree with them.

Roshni Nedungadi 30:35 Right.

Kara Swisher 30:35 That's, [chuckles] you know what I mean? And that's what-- It's really hard because, um, one of the things that when people are complaining about Mamdani winning, I said, "You tell young people to be involved and to vote, and when they do it, you tell them their vote is stupid." Like, I don't-

Roshni Nedungadi 30:48 Mm-hmm

Kara Swisher 30:48 ... understand. Like, I don't-- They're doing what you said, and you just don't like their choice, which is very different. Um, I also had political journalist Astead Herndon on the show a few months ago. He talked about how voters now don't fit into neat ideological boxes. I think that's another truism, and it's more important for candidates to be clearly articulate in their values than it is to fit neatly into an ideological box. Uh, first, Roshni, how does that square with what you're seeing in the research with young and minority voters who've been moving away from the Democratic Party? And-

Roshni Nedungadi 31:16 Yeah

Kara Swisher 31:16 ... and, and what, what, what animates them now?

Roshni Nedungadi 31:21 I think we've heard a lot about, uh, young men, particularly young men of color, over the last few election cycles moving further away from the Democratic Party or voting more for Republicans. And so we've undertaken a lot of research over the last couple of years with our partners at Third Way and at Black Men Vote to dig into what's going on there, what is leading to these votes, and now that we're seeing these young men slowly move back towards the Democratic Party, what is driving that as well. And what we've found a lot is, uh, young, young men, young people are severely economically strained. They heard Democrats in 2024 say, "The economy is fine. It's getting better. We don't have to worry about it." And so they were looking for candidates, uh, in that time, Trump, who were, were making arguments that identified the pain that they were experiencing and found some sort of solution for it. Now, they have-

Kara Swisher 32:22 Now they're hearing Trump say that. Now they're hearing Trump.

Roshni Nedungadi 32:23 N-now, now they have noticed that he is not going to help them at all. He's making their lives a lot worse, and so they're looking for an alternative, and I think that's where some of these insurgent candidates, too, have come in. But I think, um, a-an important point there is to note that at no point, even while they were voting for Trump, did these young men, particularly young men of color, identify as MAGA or Republican. They're still overwhelmingly progressive or Democratic or moderate. They just needed a place to land in the last election because they didn't feel like they had a home in the Democratic Party. And so I think what we're seeing is more and more young people are not identifying cleanly with parties in the way that they have in the past.

Kara Swisher 33:11 No, they aren't. [chuckles]

Roshni Nedungadi 33:11 And so we have to be a little bit more flexible with our, our messaging and our policy positions.

Kara Swisher 33:17 Now, Adam, you had some examples of what Roshni was talking about in your book. Can you share some of those?

Adam Jentleson 33:22 Yeah. That's right. I mean, I think the, the, the overarching frame here is that the defining feature of the American people is their ideological heterodoxy, right? They're-- The American voters are not rigidly ideological, and so they don't take all their positions from the left or the right. Uh, you know, they mix things from column A and, and column B. And so, you know, when you've seen candidates who've been successful, uh, especially in resisting attacks as being socialist or Republican smears, it's because they mix those positions together and-

Kara Swisher 33:48 Mm-hmm

Adam Jentleson 33:48 ... and convey this heterodoxy that connects with the American people and makes people think, "Oh, when you face a tough decision, you're gonna be an independent thinker. You're a different kind of Democrat. You're gonna think like me." And so, you know, you look around the country now, the candidates who are succeeding in some of these redder areas, people like James Talarico, are mixing in, you know, non-traditional Democratic positions with, with their sort of liberal values. So Ta-Talarico running in Texas is talking about how valuable the oil and gas industry is to the Texas economy. It supports, you know, hundreds of thousands of working-class jobs. Hundreds of thousands of working-class Hispanic men, you know, are employed

Adam Jentleson 34:20 by the oil and gas industry. And so, you know, for a candidate like him, who clearly is deeply committed to liberal values, if you're gonna win in a state like Texas, you know, you gotta mix in some of those heterodox positions, and that's part of why I think we're seeing him succeed.

Kara Swisher 34:32 Mm-hmm. So Amanda, one of the things that's really, um, isn't usually a top concern for voters, but like we talked about, uh, support for Israel and taking money from AIPAC is still really dividing Democrats. You just saw this vote in the House, which was unprecedented, I think. Um, even if it's not voters' top concern like the economy, talk about the role the issue of support of Israel is playing now on the campaign trail.

Roshni Nedungadi 34:56 I think it's twofold. One is that it's a moral litmus test for-

Kara Swisher 34:59 Yeah

Roshni Nedungadi 34:59 ... especially for young voters, but even-

Kara Swisher 35:01 Mm-hmm

Roshni Nedungadi 35:01 ... for older voters too, is since that, can you call a spade a spade? Can you call what we are seeing in Gaza a genocide as it-

Kara Swisher 35:07 Mm-hmm

Roshni Nedungadi 35:07 ... so clearly is? Can you-

Kara Swisher 35:09 Mm-hmm

Roshni Nedungadi 35:09 ... Do you see the atrocity, and can you name it? And, you know, I think for younger voters in particular, that kind of moral clarity is necessary. The second is the way that AIPAC is trying to buy elections speaks to the larger problem of money in politics, for people feeling like their voice can be, um, over-- drowned out by amount of money that feels undemocratic and unfair. And I think AIPAC has become the boogeyman for that, but they are not alone here. We're seeing that from, uh, crypto. We're seeing that from tech. We're seeing that from-

Kara Swisher 35:39 Like Elon Musk has $90 million in right now

Roshni Nedungadi 35:41 ... the, you know, them, the gambling, but I think the combination of the moral clarity around the issue and the money being spent that is so clearly removed from where the American people are-

Kara Swisher 35:50 Mm-hmm

Roshni Nedungadi 35:50 ... which I think is the, also the challenge here.

Kara Swisher 35:52 We're just a few months out from the midterms. The Democrats are gonna have to figure out how to navigate these divides in real time if they wanna retake power in Congress, most people feel. They have a lock on the House, we'll see. Um, Senate is in play. I s- I think that's probably the fairest way to say it. But the big fear is that Democrats are facing a moment like the Republicans did in 2010 and 2012 during the Tea Party wave, when unqualified or just bad candidates cost them a Senate majority. Um, although 2010 was still a wave election for Republicans, let's be clear. Um, Adam, when you're looking at how can Democrats avoid that same fate between now and November? Although I think the candidate quality is pretty high from what I f- looking around the country.

Adam Jentleson 36:29 Yeah, I mean, you know, I, I lived through those elections, you know, candidates like Christine O'Donnell in Delaware who, you know, famously had to run an ad saying, "I'm not a witch," you know-

Kara Swisher 36:37 Yes

Adam Jentleson 36:37 ... uh, losing a w- what should have been a winnable seat for, for Republicans because Mike Ca- she beat Mike Castle-

Kara Swisher 36:41 Being a witch today might win you a seat, but go ahead.

Adam Jentleson 36:44 You-- That's true. The times change, you know, she should-

Kara Swisher 36:45 Yeah

Adam Jentleson 36:45 ... hey, she should make another run.

Kara Swisher 36:47 Yeah.

Adam Jentleson 36:47 Um, you know, so right. So we don't have anybody that's that bad-

Kara Swisher 36:50 Yeah

Adam Jentleson 36:50 ... uh, in terms of candidate quality. Um, but I think, you know, th- this is why we really gotta hone in on, on questions of electability, where I think anybody who's currently-- We only have a few primaries left, and I, I really genuinely believe that any of the major candidates in any of these primaries we have left on the Senate side, uh, can win, right? Especially in an environment that is really strong up for us on the fundamentals. People are deeply upset about Trump. They're really angry. They hate the economy. You know, all that makes for a good midterm for Democrats. We just have to get really smart and not let these-- You know, people need to be more focused on winning an election than winning an argument. And, you know, if Abdul El-Sayed is the nominee, you know, his job is to beat Mike Rogers, the Republican, right? And that, put that first above everything else, even if it means conceding some issues on factional purity, you gotta focus on winning. It would be not in his interest or the interest of his faction for him to lose. So, you know, everybody's just gotta get really smart as we turn into general election season and, and focus on winning, and I think we don't have any candidates who are incapable of doing that as long as they, um, you know, put, put beating the Republican over winning these factional arguments.

Kara Swisher 37:52 Amanda, does money play as big a role, do you think? There is enormous-- I mean, Ken Griffin, the, Elon, the tech people are putting a lot in. Um, Trump has some slush fund. Is that gonna make a difference? It didn't make a difference in Wisconsin when Elon tried to get those judges put in, and it didn't make a difference for Tom Steyer in California, for example.

Amanda Litman 38:11 I think money matters to the extent that candidates and their outside partners have the ability to run strong campaigns.

Kara Swisher 38:17 Mm-hmm.

Amanda Litman 38:17 I do not think you can buy elections the way that you used to.

Kara Swisher 38:19 Okay.

Amanda Litman 38:19 I think it is much, much harder to make the case that simply outspending your opponent will guarantee an outcome.

Kara Swisher 38:25 Okay.

Amanda Litman 38:25 And I think especially in this election, where Democrats and Democratic voters were ready to crawl over broken glass to vote-

Kara Swisher 38:31 Mm-hmm

Amanda Litman 38:31 ... and their job is gonna be convince Republican voters that, you know, Trump's not on the ballot. You, you may not love the economy right now. You're sort of souring on this, but s- still show up.

Kara Swisher 38:40 Mm-hmm.

Amanda Litman 38:41 It's just a much harder case to make.

Kara Swisher 38:43 Mm-hmm.

Amanda Litman 38:43 I don't know if there's enough money that can sell a shitty product.

Kara Swisher 38:45 Right.

Roshni Nedungadi 38:46 I, I would add too-

Kara Swisher 38:47 Go ahead. Go ahead

Roshni Nedungadi 38:47 ... that voters are a lot more skeptical of information that we're feeding them these days with the-

Kara Swisher 38:52 They are

Roshni Nedungadi 38:52 ... rise of AI and, and information coming on social media. They wanna know who is responsible for the message and-

Kara Swisher 39:00 Mm-hmm

Roshni Nedungadi 39:00 ... why they're spending all of this money, uh, on political ads. And we hear that so often in focus groups when we test messages, when we test ads, when we test content. Who's responsible for this? What's their angle? And so I think voters are a lot more skeptical, uh, when they look at the amount-

Kara Swisher 39:17 Yeah

Roshni Nedungadi 39:17 ... of money that's being spent in politics now.

Kara Swisher 39:19 Absolutely. So a lot more progressive candidates are ba- campaigning on the message abolish ICE. A poll in March showed about half voters support the idea. I think it's higher now, and we just saw two more fatal shootings this month. It looks like it's animating a lot of voters. Um, is that the case? And, and Roshni, uh, you first. It, it, what is, what do your surveys reveal about ICE enforcement as a vehicle? And then Amanda and Adam, please weigh in.

Roshni Nedungadi 39:43 Um, I think voters hold a very nuanced view on this, actually, in the same way that they do around, uh, the slogan defund the police. They very much are supportive of having some sort of immigration

Roshni Nedungadi 40:00 enforcement mechanism in the country, but they are very, very unsupportive of the actions that Trump's ICE is taking in murdering Americans and forcing people into camps and kicking people out of the country. They do not like the way that ICE is operating. Um, I think this is especially true among Latino communities right now and why he's losing so much ground, um, that he gained in the last election among Latino communities. They are seeing their neighbors and their friends and family, uh, being targeted. And so they-- voters do hold a nuanced view in this, and I think running on the idea of abolishing or reforming ICE is a, it's a popular position for candidates now.

Kara Swisher 40:44 For candidates. Amanda?

Amanda Litman 40:46 I totally agree. I also think this is one of those places where the Democratic Party leadership's failure to show sufficient anger really matters.

Kara Swisher 40:53 Mm-hmm.

Amanda Litman 40:53 Like, Chris Van Hollen traveling to El Salvador and, like, putting his body on the line, or even Brad Lander doing the same in New York, some of it is performative, but voters want to see that you're perf- validating their feelings, that this is an atrocity, that this is horrific, that ICE should not be able to murder people in the streets. I also think the flip is also true, which is that voters have seen now over the last 18 months totally ordinary people stand up against ICE in a way that I think is deeply inspiring and in some ways restores some faith in the American people and in this idea that, like, you can be responsible for your neighbor, that while our elites and our billionaires have been deeply cowardly, ordinary Americans have been incredibly brave. So watching our leadership fail gives them an opportunity to rise.

Kara Swisher 41:38 Adam?

Adam Jentleson 41:39 Yeah, I think w-we did a poll at Searchlight at the height of after the, um, the shooting in, in Minnesota. Um, and what it, it showed two things. One was that ICE was unpopular, um, and that the other was that people still wanted interior enforcement of our immigration laws, right? And so however you message it, you have to make clear... And, you know, what people are saying is, you know, not like this, right? They want interior enforcement, but they don't-- They're horrified, rightly so, by what they're seeing. So they want enforcement that abides by the rule of the law, that treats people humanely, that isn't pulling people out of cars and certainly isn't shooting them in the, in the head, you know, for, for just trying to get out of the way. So I think that's the, that's the line that Democrats have to walk, where, you know, they should absolutely be harsh in their criticism of these atrocities that we're seeing and this incredibly reckless approach to interior enforcement, while still making clear that we are a nation of laws and we do need interior enforcement of our immigration laws. It just has to be humane-

Kara Swisher 42:34 Right

Adam Jentleson 42:34 ... and it has to abide by the rule of law.

Kara Swisher 42:37 Yeah, it's interesting 'cause I do think it's a communications issue. There was a really interesting video, some guy going on about what happened in Maine, a Mainer, and he's like, "Well, if it was in this country legally, he's in trouble," da da. And then the guy was like, "Well, you know, he was in this country legally," and he goes, "Oh." And he goes, "And he was just trying to leave." "Oh." "And he had all his papers right." "Oh." And it was so interesting to watch in real time this guy, who was very loudmouthed, turn, shift rather quickly. It was re- it was in- And it wasn't, um... He was d- he was actually shifting. It was an interesting moment to watch.

Adam Jentleson 43:09 It's real, real-time persuasion, you know?

Kara Swisher 43:11 It's, right.

Adam Jentleson 43:11 It's, it's amazing to see, yeah.

Kara Swisher 43:12 It was funny to watch. [upbeat music] Support for this show comes from Whatnot. When you want something, you have to work for it. Nothing in life comes easy, and the same can be said when you wanna turn a side hustle into a lasting business. So why not get started with Whatnot? Whatnot is the largest dedicated live shopping platform. Whether it's beauty, collectibles, electronics, luxury fashion, even cookies, sellers are building real thriving businesses. Anyone can sell, whether your business is big, small, or yet to exist. According to their data across Whatnot, a number of sellers making over one million dollars a year has doubled, and people selling on Whatnot sell 10 times more than on other major marketplaces. That's because you're not just listing products, you're building real connections with buyers. When one of our producers tried Whatnot as a buyer, she was surprised about how much she liked their live stream buying process. The chat rooms and the real-time reaction from sellers made the whole thing kind of thrilling. Whatnot has found that buyers spend more than an hour a day in the app, and that time is spent more than just browsing. They're engaging, buying, building, commuting, and coming back. As a seller, you go live, show off the products in real time, and turn what you love into real income. Search Whatnot, W-H-A-T-N-O-T, in the App Store, download, and you can start selling right away. I have two more questions. You all talked about the need to prioritize winning over ideological purity. Presumably, that's the goal. But, you know, some of these progressive candidates, as they're pivoting to the general, how can they appeal to the broader electorate without compromising so much that makes them genuine? Especially in purple states and districts, I'm thinking of Mamdani, who just relentlessly focused on the economy. I'd love each of you to answer, then I have one final question.

Amanda Litman 44:52 You know, I think keeping it focused on the problems you wanna solve and, like, speaking from a place of values, understanding that if you are clear about what your goal is, there's a lot of different ways to get at that goal, and that's, that's kind of what the policy conversation is about, is we can all agree that everyone should have access to affordable healthcare. What are the different ways we can get there? And when candidates have a strong sense of values and of what they believe, the, the conversation about tactics and, and how you communicate that is much easier. I think candidates get screwed, and we see them fail at this, when their campaign or themselves have to spend time figuring out, "What is it, what is it I believe?" as opposed to, "How do I communicate what I believe?"

Kara Swisher 45:30 Right. Right. That's fair. Adam?

Adam Jentleson 45:31 Yeah. I think part of being authentic is saying what you believe, and most people don't hold ideas that are consistent with an ideology on every single topic, right? And so, you know, liberals are gonna have mostly liberal views, and that's great, and that's what the role we play in this system. But they probably have a few things that they believe personally that does diverge a little bit from sort of leftist purity tests, and they should just say that, too, right? So that's, that's part of what being authentic means, is saying all the things you believe out loud. And the, that's the right balance for a general election where, you know, you're mostly gonna agree with the left, but on a few things you're gonna have an independent point of view, and that is, you know, authentic 'cause it's what you believe. And it also demonstrates to general election voters and swing voters who might have voted for Trump last time that you're gonna be someone who thinks for themselves and who's gonna be guided by your own core values and commitments, not by a rigid ideology.

Amanda Litman 46:24 And I also think, uh, outreach for candidates is paramount, making sure that they are speaking to voters where they are, addressing the issues that are important to them, and coming in at the level that they understand those issues. I mean, for example, Mamdani, uh, in New York, AAPI voters had been voting more and more Republican, um, uh, over the course of the last few years. And Mamdani, in the general election, drove AAPI turnout, uh, higher than it has been in New York City in years.

Roshni Nedungadi 46:58 And actually got 87% of the South Asian vote in New York City,

Roshni Nedungadi 47:03 which is much more than Democratic candidates have been getting over the last few years. So having an authentic candidate and then having a candidate that is willing to go into their communities and authentically speak to their issues and problem-solve with them, uh, i- is the key there.

Kara Swisher 47:18 Yeah. Yeah. I had, uh, I had suggested that to a presidential candidate. I'm like, "Go where they are, not where you are." [laughs] Like, they were in Nantucket, uh, and I was like, "Leave Nantucket immediately." Um, so last question, as we head into the 2028 presidential election, the eventual Democratic nominee is gonna have to appeal to both sides of this divide and the broader electorate to win back the White House. Is this the start of a serious alignment for the party or just another cyclical swing to the left that could prove cri- politically costly, like it was for Vice President Kamala Harris in 2024?

Adam Jentleson 47:50 I think this is an opportunity to build a lasting realignment and dominate not just the next election, but the next generation for Democrats. And I think it, it requires us to make some smart choices, starting now with the midterms and going into 2028. I have this book coming out called Supermajority, and the idea is that this is what we need to think. We need to think about how to build a supermajority and reject these narrow majorities that we've been trapped in for the last 10 years or so. And, you know, that means thinking about how to win in places like Nebraska and Texas and Ohio and the Dakotas, where Democrats used to hold Senate seats. And, you know, if we make the choices we need to to do that, we can build durable power that's not just gonna swing back and forth, because you can't... You know, everybody here wants to pass big, ambitious change, but you really can't do it on narrow majorities. I'd be the first to say we should eliminate the filibuster in the Senate. I-- my first book was about that. You know, we should definitely get rid of it, but you're gonna need large Senate majorities to pass big, ambitious bills, you know, to, to re- and to reshape the courts, which are gonna strike down anything we pass if we don't reshape them anyway, right? So we need to be smart and thoughtful about this and say, "Look, we will accept divergence from purity test, especially in purple and red states," because it, it's-- the cost-benefit is a no-brainer. And we need to be smart and strategic, starting now with these midterms, but, but taking that mindset forward into 2028 as we think about how to beat Republicans and, and win back the White House.

Kara Swisher 49:09 Roshni?

Roshni Nedungadi 49:10 At a base level, the Democratic Party brand is wildly unpopular right now, so it is ripe for a realignment and to start from the beginning. And all of the populist and progressive policies that we've been discussing over the last hour are wildly popular, not only with progressives, self-proclaimed progressives, but also with moderates and independents and even some right-leaning voters. And so, uh, to build that big tent back for the Democratic Party, I think it is time for that realignment.

Kara Swisher 49:41 And Amanda?

Amanda Litman 49:43 I don't know if any of your listeners are romance novel readers, um-

Kara Swisher 49:46 [laughs] I am

Amanda Litman 49:46 ... but there's a trope [laughs] in romance, uh, novels about, you know, the looks-like-a-cinnamon-roll-but-could-actually-kill-you-

Kara Swisher 49:52 [laughs]

Amanda Litman 49:53 ... of, like, the nice guy with, like, look a little bit, little bit mean. I think that's where the Democratic Party is going-

Kara Swisher 49:59 Yeah

Amanda Litman 49:59 ... in the sense that-

Kara Swisher 50:00 Oh

Amanda Litman 50:00 ... I suspect after this cycle-

Kara Swisher 50:02 Mm-hmm

Amanda Litman 50:03 ... we are gonna be looking for a national leader who is both, like, kind and earnest and optimistic and imagines a world that is better-

Kara Swisher 50:09 Yeah

Amanda Litman 50:09 ... but also tough on accountability-

Kara Swisher 50:11 Mm-hmm

Amanda Litman 50:11 ... and is not going to mess around with holding Trump and the Republican Party accountable for what has, what has been done.

Kara Swisher 50:16 Mm-hmm.

Amanda Litman 50:16 And the, the winning candidate, the sort of winning part of the party that can combine those two things, is gonna be the, the, the part that moves us forward.

Kara Swisher 50:23 All right, then I can't resist. Who's your cinnamon roll? [laughs] And, and who is Adam, and who is yours, Roshni? [laughs]

Amanda Litman 50:29 Oh, I think there's-- I think Ossoff has certainly got it.

Kara Swisher 50:32 Yeah.

Amanda Litman 50:32 I think AOC's got it if she wants it. I think Warnock low-key is a sleeper. He's got it-

Kara Swisher 50:37 Mm-hmm

Amanda Litman 50:37 ... if he wants it. There's lots of variations of cinnamon rolls with a little bit of, uh, could-

Kara Swisher 50:41 [laughs]

Amanda Litman 50:41 ... actually kill you underneath.

Kara Swisher 50:43 Adam? [laughs]

Adam Jentleson 50:43 I, I'm, I'm shaking my head because those are literally the three that I would name.

Amanda Litman 50:46 Yeah. [laughs]

Adam Jentleson 50:46 I mean, I, I think all of them are interesting. I would also add, I would not be shocked if there's a total outsider candidate who takes us all by surprise and swoops in, um, with that outsider energy, given how, how much passion there is for that right now.

Kara Swisher 50:58 Hmm. Hmm. Anyone you can think of?

Adam Jentleson 51:01 You know, someone, p- someone like Mark Cuban from the, from the-

Kara Swisher 51:04 Yeah

Adam Jentleson 51:04 ... who has a business background, but, but deeply held, um, liberal principles.

Kara Swisher 51:07 He's not running, just so you know.

Adam Jentleson 51:07 Okay, well-

Kara Swisher 51:08 We talk about it every three days

Adam Jentleson 51:09 ... that's, hey, that's news.

Kara Swisher 51:09 [laughs]

Adam Jentleson 51:10 Uh, you know, I-- look, I thought I saw Matthew McCon- This is, you know, this is me just sort of fantasizing, but, you know, I saw Matthew McConaughey, you know, um, getting in on the action a little bit, uh-

Kara Swisher 51:17 Yeah

Adam Jentleson 51:17 ... with the 250th anniversary. He's shown in-interest in, in politics occasionally.

Kara Swisher 51:21 Yes. Can I-

Adam Jentleson 51:21 You know-

Kara Swisher 51:21 ... can I give you some advice? Go listen to my interview with him, and then you'll, you'll change your mind [laughs] quickly.

Adam Jentleson 51:26 [laughs] Okay, I'll do that right after this. Well-

Kara Swisher 51:27 [laughs] Me too

Adam Jentleson 51:27 ... you know, but someone like that, I think-

Kara Swisher 51:29 Yeah

Adam Jentleson 51:29 ... who's, who's sort of-

Kara Swisher 51:29 I-- yeah

Adam Jentleson 51:30 ... you know, comfortable in their own skin, uh, good on social media, you know, but, but has a, has a commitment-

Kara Swisher 51:35 Yeah, handsome man

Adam Jentleson 51:35 ... to deep American values and wants to do more. You know, we'll see. We'll see.

Kara Swisher 51:38 Yeah. Roshni, you fin- [laughs] finish up.

Roshni Nedungadi 51:40 I, I mean, I very much agree with the list of those three, and I think-

Kara Swisher 51:43 Mm-hmm

Roshni Nedungadi 51:43 ... those are the three names that we hear voters bring up most often in focus-

Kara Swisher 51:46 Mm-hmm

Roshni Nedungadi 51:46 ... groups as well. When we ask, you know, uh, "Who are candidates who are working for you right now?" We hear those three names pop up a lot.

Kara Swisher 51:54 Pop up a lot. All right. Well, there's a lot of Georgia in there, a lot of cinnamon rolls from Georgia. All right. Uh, thank you three all so much, Adam, Amanda, and Roshni, uh, for being here today. I really appreciate it.

Amanda Litman 52:04 Thank you.

Adam Jentleson 52:05 Thanks for having us.

Kara Swisher 52:05 [upbeat music] Today's show was produced by Michelle Loy, Katherine Millsap, Madeline Laplant Duby, Megan Bernie, and Kalyn Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Eamon Whalen, Dave Shaw, Corinne Ruff, and Julia Sharp Levine. And our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you are not a witch, or maybe you are. If not, you're part of the establishment, and you need to go. Thanks for watching. See you on Thursday. [upbeat music]