BEN BARLOW (NECK DEEP) Interview: The Origin Story

David McIntosh Jr 0:00 [upbeat music]

David McIntosh Jr 0:10 Ben Barlow

Ben Barlow 0:11 Will, Ryan. How are you?

David McIntosh Jr 0:13 The front man of my favorite band, right? We're in a skatepark. W- I grew up in a skatepark. I grew up listening to Neck Deep. I'm a can of Monster and some cyber billing away from reliving my childhood trauma. [laughs]

Ben Barlow 0:25 [laughs] Well, we've replaced the Monster for-

David McIntosh Jr 0:27 Productivity [laughs]

Ben Barlow 0:27 ... you know, productivity drinks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, man, same. Yeah, I very much grew up in skateparks. I think the skate culture went pretty hand-in-hand with the type of music that, you know, we do. And, um, yeah, I think that skateboarding was kind of the start of it all for me really, and yeah. So-

David McIntosh Jr 0:43 Yeah

Ben Barlow 0:43 ... I'm very much in a, in a natural environment now, yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 0:46 Dude, we were kind of joking before how we record, that you look at someone that votes something extreme like Reform, and you can kind of guess their kind of entire palette of life.

Ben Barlow 0:54 Yeah, yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 0:55 And then I think it's the same for skateboarding, man. Like, if you know a skateboarder, you know what habits they have, what music they listen to-

Ben Barlow 1:01 Yep

David McIntosh Jr 1:01 ... how they dress.

Ben Barlow 1:01 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 1:02 And I think we s- we mostly fit that stereotype right now.

Ben Barlow 1:04 Yeah. You can tar us all with the same kind of brush-

David McIntosh Jr 1:07 [laughs]

Ben Barlow 1:07 ... roughly, I think. Yeah. Um, yeah, I was saying as well, like, I think rocking up to a skatepark, especially if it's a local outdoor in the summer, and just being able to, like, connect with people over, over skating or over a joint or over some music or whatever is like, makes me feel normal. You know what I mean? I do that for a little sense of normality. Especially COVID was the last time I was, like, skating heavily, and, like, going to the skatepark to just, like, be with my people was, was nice. Yeah. Um, but yeah, unless you're Tim Pool. You... He's, he's the outlier. He's a, yeah, he's a, he's a knob. But, um, most skaters are sound, man. Most skaters are just like, wanna smoke weed, hang out, and kind of live life on their own terms. I think that's why it's, like, appealing to me, I think.

David McIntosh Jr 1:52 Yeah.

Ben Barlow 1:53 I've never re- I've... Ever since I was a kid, I had punk thrust onto me pretty young, thanks to a, a green-haired older brother. And he worked in a skatepark and everything, and so there has always been this idea for me of, like, an alternative and kind of living your own way, you know? As long as you're not hurting anyone or, you know, causing trouble, like, I think living life on your own terms is kind of, like, what's been my, my goal really.

David McIntosh Jr 2:22 Yeah.

Ben Barlow 2:22 And kind of like, never wanted a normal job, never wanted a desk job or anything like that. Um, and just being able to live life on my terms, being able to fucking smoke weed, hang out, you know, watch movies and documentaries as, as part of inspiration and shit. You know what I mean? I'm not just clocking in. And, like, everything I do is kind of all kind of part of this life I've chosen to live, which is nice. It's all kind of linked together.

David McIntosh Jr 2:50 I don't know about you, but, like, skateparks, they g- they get such a bad rap.

Ben Barlow 2:54 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 2:54 Like, your... Like, my parents told me not to hang out there, right? But, like, if you think about any other sport, usually it's, like, age-based.

Ben Barlow 3:01 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 3:01 So you're hanging about with, like, the pop- like you're playing football, you're playing with the popular guys in school.

Ben Barlow 3:04 Yeah, yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 3:04 But you go to a skatepark, you're hanging out with, like, 40-year-old... You're, like, 14-

Ben Barlow 3:07 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

David McIntosh Jr 3:07 ... hanging out with 40-year-old men.

Ben Barlow 3:08 [laughs]

David McIntosh Jr 3:08 And not in a weird way, not in, like, a BBC way. Like- [laughs]

Ben Barlow 3:11 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um-

David McIntosh Jr 3:12 But, like, but the w- th- there was kind of two things for me at least. I saw a bunch of people that I really gravitated towards who were, like, father figures-

Ben Barlow 3:20 Yeah

David McIntosh Jr 3:20 ... older brother figures who-

Ben Barlow 3:22 Yeah, yeah

David McIntosh Jr 3:22 ... handed down a bunch of tools that I've, I mean, I've taken to today, right?

Ben Barlow 3:26 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 3:27 And, uh, but there's a bunch of other kids that are hanging in the skatepark, and you're like, "Ah, I've seen how your life turns out. I, I wanna avoid that."

Ben Barlow 3:32 For sure.

David McIntosh Jr 3:33 But not many disciplines have that, you know?

Ben Barlow 3:35 Yeah. It, there's, there's, there's a huge dirt bag contingent within skateboarding, for sure. Um-

David McIntosh Jr 3:42 [laughs]

Ben Barlow 3:43 I can see it, man. Like, you know, like I say, s- sending your kid down to the skatepark and then there being 10 dudes down there who are all absolutely fucking stoned out their minds, just, like, cau- being a bit of a rabble. Probably not the, not the best place for a kid. And, like, I'm always aware of that shit, man. Like, I've got a lot of kids in my family, and I've been around kids, and I know how easily they pick stuff up, and I know how easily influenced I was as a kid.

David McIntosh Jr 4:09 [laughs]

Ben Barlow 4:09 Like, I vicariously picked up so many... Lots of cool stuff, like I say, punk and skating, but also some, you know, some not so cool shit. Um, but-

David McIntosh Jr 4:19 And the nature of skateparks are they're usually in the most deprived areas as well.

Ben Barlow 4:22 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 4:22 So I grew up in a council estate, and my local skatepark was in the roughest area in my council estate. And the types of people that actually passed through there were pretty rough.

Ben Barlow 4:31 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 4:31 But again, like, even seeing that shit, you're like, "All right. I need to kind of... I don't need to work in an office or I need to do these things, but I need to do well or do things on my own terms."

Ben Barlow 4:38 Yeah, for sure.

David McIntosh Jr 4:38 You become quite agentic.

Ben Barlow 4:39 Yeah. And I think it can also set you up to... It can kind of make you... It can be a bit of exposure therapy for-

David McIntosh Jr 4:48 True

Ben Barlow 4:48 ... like, that scenario, you know? Like, um, if you n- if, if maybe you're not from, like, a rough area or, um, and, you know, you go down to a skatepark and you're hanging out in these rough areas, like, you know, it can kind of be a bit of exposure therapy for that. Because I think growing up in rough areas, like, you realize pretty quick, like, you've got to be able to give it back just as quick as you get it. And, like, if you can stand up for yourself and hold your ground, then-

David McIntosh Jr 5:14 Get yourself out of trouble.

Ben Barlow 5:15 Yeah. G- get yourself out of trouble or just know how to, like, talk to people, you know? If there's a, if there's a homeless guy who's maybe at the park who's acting a bit crazy, rather than, like, "Ooh." I mean, yeah, try and avoid. But, like, also talk to him like a person. Find re- reason with him, you know? And it makes you realize, like, you know, there's, there's maybe... Well, there's a lot of classism in the UK, you know, a lot of people who kind of look down on, on those less fortunate. But I think skatepark is, like, the kind of place where all of that kind of can fade away and you can kind of-

David McIntosh Jr 5:43 True

Ben Barlow 5:43 ... actually, you know, experience some real life and some real people. Um-

David McIntosh Jr 5:47 Yeah

Ben Barlow 5:47 ... it does attract all walks of life. Like, whether it's old skaters who are there to pass on knowledge or whether it is, like, the local homeless dude who's, who's coming around to, you know, scrounge a bit of money off you or whatever. It's like- And you get like little kids and families and everything down there too. So it is a, it's a, it's a cool place to be

David McIntosh Jr 6:05 And there's no like status hierarchy there.

Ben Barlow 6:06 No.

David McIntosh Jr 6:06 Like everyone's a fucking equal.

Ben Barlow 6:07 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 6:08 Like whether you've just nailed your first ollie or you've like dropped in a 12 foot vert-

Ben Barlow 6:13 Yeah

David McIntosh Jr 6:13 ... you get the same level of response from everyone around.

Ben Barlow 6:15 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 6:15 There's no like status games.

Ben Barlow 6:16 Yeah, man. If you land your first pop shove it on a bank or something, you're gonna get the best skater in that park, as long as they're not a dick, going, "Hell yeah." 'Cause like even just doing that on a skateboard is hard and, and you know, skating for, for that reason as well I think is a, is a, is a good life lesson of like, this shit is gonna hurt. You are gonna suck. You are gonna fall off. Um, you are gonna wanna quit. But ultimately, keep trying, get back up, chill out, try again when your head's clear or whatever. And it does. There's a lot of, a lot of lessons you can take from it. So yeah, very thankful to have had it. It's kind of stuck with me at different points in my life, you know, in and out of it. I think I've always described myself as a bit of a jack of all trades. I feel like I've tried every extreme sport there is, like [laughs] uh, and gotten mediocre at all of them and then gone, "I'm done with this now." But that's [laughs] ADHD for you. It's like once I, once it stops stimulating me, I'm like, "Right, next thing." But skating has been pretty consistent and come in and out at different points in my life and-

David McIntosh Jr 7:22 T- take me back to like writing and performing music for the first time. Was it around that era of picking up skateboarding? Like, I think about 2012, 2013 Neck Deep, that's when I came across you guys, so-

Ben Barlow 7:32 Yeah

David McIntosh Jr 7:32 ... this is like, I'm totally fanboying right now, dude.

Ben Barlow 7:35 [laughs]

David McIntosh Jr 7:35 This is so cool.

Ben Barlow 7:36 You're holding me down, man. It's all good.

David McIntosh Jr 7:37 Uh.

Ben Barlow 7:37 [laughs]

David McIntosh Jr 7:38 Yeah, man, it's, it's pretty cool. But like tell me about 2012, 2013. Tell me about like picking up the guitar-

Ben Barlow 7:46 Mm

David McIntosh Jr 7:46 ... singing for the first time, writing music. How did that all come around?

Ben Barlow 7:49 Um, I was always like, I wouldn't say I'm from like a musical family, but my brothers were very musical. My mum, not musical at all. My dad was just a good, like a- he liked good music and was a, a, an avid music listener. But I was very much, it was very much given to me by both of my older brothers are probably two of my biggest role models in my life. Like Seb, who's in the band now, and I have another older brother, his name's Jamie, and he was the green haired punk that gave us all this stuff. So I grew up seeing him in bands and from punk stuff to DJing, like funk and soul and all this sort of stuff. So then around about the time that Seb was like 13, 14, I was probably like, like 10, 11, he started playing in bands. And so then I was going to the gigs to see him playing band, in bands. And then he started recording bands and i- like in the, in the attic of our house, basically, in h- in his little attic room. And so I was there sort of poking my head into these recording sessions and going and seeing if I could scrounge a ciggie, when really I kind of just wanted to be around what was happening. And, um, I think that just like, I, I, I felt like I was listening to Seb recording music and I was having ideas for the songs that he was recording, and I was going, "Cool," like, "Oh, this lyric could be cool," or whatever. And I think at that time I'd picked up an acoustic and could play four or five chords and was just, you know, doing my thing. And I did have a, a terrible little solo project that Seb was kind enough to just be like, "All right, I'll record it for free because you're my brother and, and we'll work on this together." And that was the start of it really. Um, and then, yeah, honestly, it's, it's, whether by an insane stroke of luck or whether by, I don't know, the stars aligned, whether it was always meant to be, like the first band I started was Neck Deep, and the first fucking song we ever did started to gain traction kind of immediately really. Um-

David McIntosh Jr 9:53 Was that What Did You Expect?

Ben Barlow 9:55 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 9:55 Yeah.

Ben Barlow 9:55 What Did You Expect? was our first, first ever song, man. Fresh off, fresh off a breakup. Fresh off a couple, couple of like gnarly teen relationships, like quite intense, like year-long relationships as a teen that like, yeah, just, just ended in, in weird ways, and I was a sensitive kind of emotional kid, again, with like the ADHD. Like now knowing that, like my emotional response to stuff was always, was always like, yeah, I, I really felt, uh, those, you know, that strong, uh, uh, emotions of like, I don't know, not abandonment or anything like that, but just, just felt the, the heartbreak really, really hard. And so perfect way, thing to pour it into was like a bunch of whingy pop punk music that I was like, "All right, cool, I've got, I've got plenty to write about." Um, and so yeah, that all of that like flowed so easily and, um, I don't know h- how or why it sort of worked out the way it did, but it just did. I think I was just super inspired, had nothing to lose, no context of like what fans want. It was just purely, this is what we want to write.

David McIntosh Jr 11:11 And so you'd wanted out.

Ben Barlow 11:13 What's that?

David McIntosh Jr 11:13 Like and so you'd wanted out almost.

Ben Barlow 11:15 Yeah, 100%. 100%. It, I needed an outlet for sure. And like I was looking at uni and college and all this sort of stuff and like, yeah, it was fine. It was, it was all good, but like music was the only thing I really cared about. And to be honest, all I ever told myself, and at the time I think I was kind of into like the whole law of attraction, all that sort of stuff, and I think it, it, it did me well for a minute because all I told myself was, "Never want a desk job, and I want a job that I can see the world, that allows me to just see the world. I don't care." I, I, I... For a long time, I wanted to be a documentarian videographer. Like just put me on a, on a crew and let me hold a camera, as long as I can see the world, and that manifested in- The best possible way, which is like I'm, I'm in a band and I get to tour the world now. So yeah, I think, um, super inspired and just like completely, completely focused on like, do not have a normal life. Do not have a normal job. Like, whatever you can do to carve out a path for yourself that is gonna, you know, that allows you to live the life that you've always wanted, do it, so.

David McIntosh Jr 12:28 And the thing like skate culture, punk, pop-punk culture kind of lends itself to that.

Ben Barlow 12:34 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 12:34 Uh, like there was, there is no uniformity in skateboarding or pop-punk.

Ben Barlow 12:39 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 12:39 The only uniformity is, uh, div- like diversity if that makes sense.

Ben Barlow 12:42 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 12:42 Like kinda like the, uh, Edinburgh Fringe on the skateboard scene. These types of fringe societies, it just like kind of attracts like a level of misfit that no other industry would.

Ben Barlow 12:53 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 12:53 Whereas if you look at s- like football, and not to generalize, but like most kids... Like I grew up playing football as well.

Ben Barlow 12:58 Mo- yeah, yeah

David McIntosh Jr 12:59 ... mo- most kids are kind of different shades of each other-

Ben Barlow 13:01 Yeah

David McIntosh Jr 13:01 ... with like kind of tiger parents expecting the same-

Ben Barlow 13:03 Yeah, yeah

David McIntosh Jr 13:04 ... all their kids. Whereas like skateboarding is so expressive in nature. Someone who can ride a ramp really well, but not doing tricks on it-

Ben Barlow 13:12 Yeah

David McIntosh Jr 13:12 ... it can look just as good as someone doing like the most gnarliest of tricks. Um, but also contextually, like it's not like you went to like, is it like Brit School or something like that where all the music sort of-

Ben Barlow 13:22 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Something like that. Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 13:24 You, you did this from Wrexham in North West Wales. [laughs]

Ben Barlow 13:26 Yeah. Yeah. It's, I, I think the key with it all is, is be yourself. I think it is, is, is with skating, with pop-punk, with everything. Like, like you say, the best skaters, you can just- Sorry. [laughs] Sorry. Nice.

David McIntosh Jr 13:44 That's just so random. [laughs]

Ben Barlow 13:45 Yeah, it's all good. Yeah, yeah. Um, I think it's be yourself. Like you say, you can have some dude that's just going back and forth doing rock fakies and an, uh, and axle stalls on a mini ramp, but as long as they're doing it with steez and they're relaxed and they're, they're chilling about it, like that is just as cool as somebody who's... Well, there's this whole argument now I've seen in the skate world of like this new crop of kids that are coming through that are like technical robots with skating, but not so much style. I don't even care either way. Like, they're kids and, and they're pushing the sport forward, but it's a debate in skating.

David McIntosh Jr 14:17 Are these like the seven-year-old Japanese people in the Olympics thing?

Ben Barlow 14:19 Yeah. I think there's, there's a- Yeah. Jin Wu is like the kid that every... He's the hot topic of debate. And, um, ultimately I think knocking a 14-year-old kid, especially when the criticism is coming from like 45-year-old skaters is kind of whack really.

David McIntosh Jr 14:36 [laughs]

Ben Barlow 14:36 Just as a whole is whack. It's like leave the kid alone, but I get it, you know. Style, style i-i-over substance, i- it... Or style over difficulty in skating is definitely the, the key. And, and I think, do think it kind of, um, kind of works that way in pop-punk too. Like, it doesn't have to be complex or it doesn't have to be this, this showy thing. Like, as long as it's real, as long as it's to the point, and as long as it feels like something. Like there's a lot of music that I listen to both, you know, of all genres, that just doesn't like feel like anything or it doesn't like mean anything. You kind of listen to it and it's just kind of like this feels a bit paint by numbers. And I mean, we may even be guilty of it at times as well, but, um, I think as long as you can just put your own individual stamp on whatever you're doing and, and it resonates with people, and that's the most important thing. I think we've always tried to be relatable, um, because, you know, that's, that's what I loved about music, is when I could see myself in someone or I felt like somebody was speaking to me or that they summarized how I felt without me even knowing how I felt. I think that was what I was always looking for in music and what I wanted to do with Neck Deep. So yeah, totally. If you... Y- like, it's hard to say like be original and be individual, but like you just take, take a few steps back and really it is just about don't, you know, don't hold yourself back. Be yourself. I think that's the most important thing. I think when you try and impress other people is when you get too caught up in your own, your own head, and you end up making stuff that just sounds like everything else, and...

David McIntosh Jr 16:14 Es- especially in this kind of AI ladled culture. Like, I know it's like wanky self-development, but like you can escape competition by being authentic 'cause no one else can be you.

Ben Barlow 16:23 Yeah, yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 16:23 No one, no one else can put your unique lattice of experience, insights, preferences, taste-

Ben Barlow 16:27 Yeah

David McIntosh Jr 16:27 ... into the world. Specifically in a world where AI is just c- creating similar smells and similar versions of the same thing-

Ben Barlow 16:35 Yeah

David McIntosh Jr 16:35 ... based on computational data.

Ben Barlow 16:36 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 16:36 Uh, like no, we're here to put something else into existence that doesn't already exist. Us.

Ben Barlow 16:40 For sure. Yeah. Yeah, and I, and I think, you know, with AI and stuff, like it's, it's pretty scary and whatever. You can have your predictions about what AI is gonna be here or there, what- whatever. Um, but I still think that humans will always value human art, and I think regardless they are always going to see the human value in it. Whether you put two images that are exactly the same next to each other, one's AI, one's human, um, A, I think you'd be able to kind of tell a little bit, but if you tell people this one's AI and this one's human, which one's better, they're gonna pick the human one just because it is a human that's done it, and because it's, it's got that human's spirit and soul in it. Like you, you can still... That is still the difference for me with AI, is like it hasn't got a soul and you, and you know it just inherently by looking at it that it doesn't, doesn't feel right. And so I do think people will always value that about real art. So yeah, it's, it's scary times in that, in that sense. Um, but I just think it'll mean that the real art and the, and the good artists will, will cut through that and, um, yeah, as long as, as long as big corporations don't like actively go on a thing of trying to just, you know, replace art with AI, which arguably they are, then I think we're sweet. I think people will, will always be able to differentiate between the two and, um, yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 18:01 I've noticed this in society recently, like, uh, effort has become a currency.

Ben Barlow 18:05 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 18:05 So like a marathon used to be like the most insane you're- The most insane thing your mate ever did, and now every cunt's doing a marathon.

Ben Barlow 18:11 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 18:12 Same with, uh, like Ironman and all these types of things. I think it's like this new tradable commodity. Like, if things have taken a lot of time, effort, and energy, they're worth more now because everything else is... It's maybe not AI, it's maybe like the just eat effect of everything.

Ben Barlow 18:24 Mm.

David McIntosh Jr 18:24 You know? Like, you can get food, uh, delivered when you want it. You can have sex on your phone with Pornhub.

Ben Barlow 18:29 Yeah, yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 18:29 Uh, AI's creating art and culture. Like, I think... Yeah, like-

Ben Barlow 18:34 Real tangible efforts. Getting out there and putting in the effort and, and yeah, it is worth something now. And sometimes I don't know whether that's like... I think people do do it for a lot of, for a lot of their own reasons, but then, like, it becomes... Because it becomes currency, then people want that currency. They want that value, and so then everyone starts doing it, and it kind of... Not saying that everyone shouldn't be trying to improve themselves, but then it, it means the culture has to move and find the next thing. And, and, and that's what kind of bums me out about stuff, about, about current culture is everything is, everything is pervasive. Every trend works its way into everyone knows about every trend all the time. Like, there's no... Not there's no subculture anymore, but subculture's kind of died because you can't have a culture that really exists in an underground and flourishes naturally. Like, I think the only thing that's really currently doing that, there's some, like, underground electronic music. Like, there's a bit, a big industrial electronic music scene that i- I think is cool and is born from a cool place, and, and the other thing is hardcore music. They're the only things that I think... And even that now is kind of becoming a, a, a thing where everyone wants to like hardcore because that's the thing. And I'm not saying that, like, trend hopping is a bad thing, but it's just how pervasive everything is. It's, it's just how, like, you can't just go for a run and say, "I went for a run." You've gotta Doco it. You've gotta go to a run club. You've gotta get all the gear. You've gotta do all this. You've gotta tell everybody that you're having a run, and then it becomes every, "Well, I've got to run," and, "I've gotta do this." Where it's like, I don't know, it doesn't... Not everything... It sometimes feels like a lot of this stuff is for show. While effort is a currency, is the value of that currency just attention and trying to fit in? I think there's value sometimes in being like, "No, I'm gonna do things differently. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna put in the effort, but for my own ends," rather than just it being like, "I'm doing the thing too." Um, I don't know if that's the punk in me just being like, "Eh, fuck everything that's popular. Eh, I hate it." But like, yeah, I feel like sometimes these things are perva- pervasive.

David McIntosh Jr 20:44 Mm.

Ben Barlow 20:44 Like, why, why are you doing this? Are you actually doing this for you? Are you doing it to show that, "I'm, I'm not getting left behind. I'm not getting left behind." It's like you don't need to fucking be up on everything. Just like what you like, do what you do, and it will be just... And, and again, I think shit becomes less fulfilling when you're doing it to just be like, "I went to a run club," or, "Fucking I did this or that." It's like, I don't know. Who are you, who are you doing this for? You know what I mean? It's kind of weird.

David McIntosh Jr 21:10 And we're wrapping another self-development quote, but it's, uh, "The ego is unavailable to receive love, only praise."

Ben Barlow 21:18 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 21:18 And I really like that, man. Like, when you're wearing a facade to work or on social media or to integrate into society, when someone says, "I really like how you're dressed," you don't feel that.

Ben Barlow 21:26 No.

David McIntosh Jr 21:27 Like, it's the ego that feels that. But e- equally, like if, if, if you've stepped out of line, but you're in character-

Ben Barlow 21:33 Yeah, yeah

David McIntosh Jr 21:33 ... or you're following a trend or you're not being completely authentic and someone pulls you up about some shit that you did-

Ben Barlow 21:38 Mm-hmm

David McIntosh Jr 21:38 ... if you badmouthed someone or if you acted unethically or you maybe disrespected someone-

Ben Barlow 21:42 Mm-hmm

David McIntosh Jr 21:42 ... you then don't have to change because you're like, "Well, that wasn't me anyway." You know?

Ben Barlow 21:46 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 21:47 So like it's a, it's a damner for growth as a human as well because you're always just trying to fit in the shell of-

Ben Barlow 21:52 Of something, yeah

David McIntosh Jr 21:53 ... of something.

Ben Barlow 21:54 I think e- yeah, I think everybody just wants validation. Ultimately, I think everybody just wants to be seen and, like, yeah, I get that, for sure. Like, you want credit for doing the thing that you've done. Um, but that again, I think that's an ego thing. I think it is like, "See me, value me. I, I, I need that for, I need that for a sense of self." Um, and I think we do look at other people for validation too much. Like, I think through social media, like, I'm currently in a, in a thing of just, like, really trying to not pay too much attention to it, just 'cause I find it's just quite a grim place. I find myself feeling worse after being on social media a lot of the time. Um-

David McIntosh Jr 22:32 Have you heard of the term post-content clarity?

Ben Barlow 22:35 No.

David McIntosh Jr 22:36 It's like a play on words for post-nut clarity.

Ben Barlow 22:38 Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs]

David McIntosh Jr 22:38 Like, how do you, how do you feel after-

Ben Barlow 22:39 Yeah

David McIntosh Jr 22:39 ... you consume something?

Ben Barlow 22:40 Yeah. Yeah, ultimately, and I think I've been having a lot of that because, like-

David McIntosh Jr 22:44 What one? [laughs]

Ben Barlow 22:46 Both. [laughs] Um, um, but yeah, I think, I think once I kinda got a bit of social media... Ah, it's not even cl- I don't think I have any clout. I've got f- followers, whatever that means. But it almost felt like a bit of a game, and once it stopped being like, "Ooh, I've got to get followers and likes," it was just like this shit's fucking meaningless. Like, it really doesn't, it doesn't mean anything. Um, I think the validation that people really should seek is validation f- from themselves. A, from themselves, which is really hard to do, giving yourself credit for shit, but also just as long as your friends and family... Like, 20 years ago, we didn't need the world to give us validation for going for a run. Like, you would probably just get home, and your mom or dad or your partner or someone would go like, "Oh, did you go for a run? Nice one. Well done. Congratulations."

David McIntosh Jr 23:39 [laughs]

Ben Barlow 23:40 And that's all the validation in the world that you would ever need. But now it's like, while you say effort is a currency, I also think attention is the currency now as well.

David McIntosh Jr 23:49 Mm.

Ben Barlow 23:49 I think as long as you can hold people's attention and as long as you can garner attention, that is what makes you valuable. Um-

David McIntosh Jr 23:56 I've heard Bo Burnham, the comedian, talk about this. Like, we have colonized enough land that now we colonize the mind and-

Ben Barlow 24:02 Mm

David McIntosh Jr 24:02 ... or we colonize attention.

Ben Barlow 24:03 Yes, definitely.

David McIntosh Jr 24:04 Uh, and you really see that, don't you?

Ben Barlow 24:06 Yeah, absolutely. It's the attention economy. Like, that is it. Like, it's why, it's why rage bait works. It's why, you know, it's why insufferable influencers- Keep being insufferable. Because, and then, and then that again, this pervasive idea that be the biggest cunt you can and you'll make a million dollars. It's like, why is that the, the metric that we're now using? Um, I mean, it's a bit old man shakes fist at cloud, but yeah, it is. It's, it's kinda sad, man. And, and, and so I think I've been trying to step away from social media at, to a degree, just to, just to enjoy, like, my actual life. Like, bro, the, the best part of my day is literally walking my dog, getting home, thinking about what I'm having for tea, making tea for when my wife gets home, and having a cuddle on the sofa. Like, people don't value that shit anymore, man. People literally just wanna, like... They want the nicest clothes, the fastest car, the fucking best teeth, the fucking... They wanna be the most jacked, and it's just like fucking me.

David McIntosh Jr 25:05 Thanks for disagreeing with me, but thank you. [laughs]

Ben Barlow 25:07 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I wanna be like you, man. Um, but yeah, I dunno. It just feels pervasive, man. It just feel, it just feels odd. And maybe it's because I'm not those things, so I, like, actively fight against it, and maybe I'm the fucking odd one out here, but, like, yeah. It, it, it feels, it feels as though people just value the wrong things. And hey, maybe I'm privileged. Maybe I've had enough life experience to be like, "Hey, the beauty of life is going to another country and just watching a sunset."

David McIntosh Jr 25:33 Mm.

Ben Barlow 25:34 Um, but instead, you know, most people have to let everybody know that they went to another country and... I dunno. Maybe I'd be a lot more famous if I fucking vlogged everything I did.

David McIntosh Jr 25:43 [laughs]

Ben Barlow 25:43 But I've done some of the coolest shit ever and didn't even take a picture of it on my phone, which is like, that was awesome. That was it.

David McIntosh Jr 25:50 And, and if you're new to the podcast, I'm gonna break the fourth wall. If you don't know who Neck Deep are, they're like the biggest band in their genre. Like, absolute fucking phenoms and rock stars at the moment. And this is a guy who's achieved probably everyone's wildest... W- what, a lot of young kids' wildest dreams, and you, you're getting to the top of this. You're at the top of your game at the moment and you're saying, "Oh, yeah, like, what I value is going a walk with my dog and spending time with my partner." That's like, like... I've been thinking about, like, 2D lessons and 3D lessons in life, right?

Ben Barlow 26:16 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 26:16 Like, 2D lessons, like money won't make you happy, you can read in a textbook. But until you have money and you're not happy, you can't really learn that.

Ben Barlow 26:22 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 26:22 And, like-

Ben Barlow 26:23 Yeah

David McIntosh Jr 26:23 ... you're teaching that lesson. Like, look, you got, you guys are successful, famous, selling out, like, the coolest venue in Glasgow tonight, and, like, selling out tours worldwide, playing in Brazil, Japan, Australia, everywhere. Uh, like, like, genuine rock and roll stars, and this guy's like, "I like a cuddle and I like to see my wife and I like a dog." [laughs] You know?

Ben Barlow 26:41 Man, I honestly think it is as well, though. Like, I've, I've seen so much of, like, these things that people want and chase and, like, I've met a lot of these people that, you know, people think, uh, uh, uh... That people have this idea of through social media or whatever, and like a lot of the time, man, these people are either just straight up dickheads, not all of them, or, or they're just fucking weird. They're just tapped. They've just been so affected by fame and the attention and the, and the money. And, and I'm maybe in a privileged position where, like, in the last few years I've not had to w- I've, I- I've got financial freedom. By no means a millionaire, which people in my DMs think I am. We're-

David McIntosh Jr 27:23 Capitalist here. [laughs]

Ben Barlow 27:23 If anyone's got it, yeah, fucking give it me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wanna fucking... Yeah, I wanna, I wanna be able to live my life. But, um, I've got some, some, you know, I've got the financial freedom. Some would probably call me a bit of a champagne socialist really for that shit. Um, but one of the earliest things I learnt through Neck Deep, uh, uh, an old manager who's a good friend told me, and it's stuck with me forever, and it's, "Nothing will make people act weirder than money."

David McIntosh Jr 27:52 Oh.

Ben Barlow 27:52 Like, you can have the most level-headed person in the world. As soon as money becomes an issue, they will completely switch on you.

David McIntosh Jr 28:00 Have you been to a daddy party? Is that what you're telling me? [laughs]

Ben Barlow 28:02 Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was, that was what it was, man, yeah. As soon as, uh, as soon as you got baby oil money-

David McIntosh Jr 28:07 [laughs]

Ben Barlow 28:07 ... it's, uh, it's all downhill from there.

David McIntosh Jr 28:09 Johnson & Johnson money. [laughs]

Ben Barlow 28:10 Yeah, yeah, yeah. As soon as you got that Johnson & Johnson money. Um, but it is, exactly. Look at that shit. I, like-

David McIntosh Jr 28:16 Are there any moments in your own story through fame and fortune where you have, like, burnt your fingers a little bit and you went, "Oh, let, let's not go there as a band. Let's not go there as an individual." Like, I almost got... Did you ever get almost-

Ben Barlow 28:26 Yeah

David McIntosh Jr 28:26 ... get vacuumed into it?

Ben Barlow 28:27 I think a little bit, yeah. Um-

David McIntosh Jr 28:29 Because I can't imagine what it's like to go, like, you... I mean, you guys blew up when you were, like, 16, 17-ish.

Ben Barlow 28:34 17 started the band. I think started touring in, like, about 18, just before I turned 18, yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 28:40 So if I think about my 18-year-old self, man, from a skateboarding community, quite insecure. Um, I want... Like, the reason I skated was 'cause I wanted attention, I wanted to do stunts and tricks-

Ben Barlow 28:50 Yeah, yeah

David McIntosh Jr 28:50 ... and for people to go, "That's cool." I can't imagine what that does to the mind of quite an alternative young person as well. Like, when you have, like, thousands of girls screaming your name, loads of lads, like, thinking you're fucking-

Ben Barlow 29:01 Wanna be you.

David McIntosh Jr 29:02 Wanna be you.

Ben Barlow 29:04 Yeah, yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 29:04 Yeah, yeah.

Ben Barlow 29:04 Yeah. Um, I do think that's another side of it that I've managed to really avoid as well. Like, shout out to my wife. We've been together since right at the start of the band and, like, you know, I think she really has kept me on the straight and narrow in the b- in the best way, and I always knew that getting with her. And, like, and as our relationship grew, it was like, I've got someone here who, regardless of whether I was in a band, if I was flipping burgers at McDonald's, she'd still love me. And so I think, like, that has been a super crucial part of just keeping me grounded, keeping me level and, like, I still live, like, close to home. I'm still close to family. Like, I really haven't moved too far away from my roots. And, but that shit fucks people up, man. Like, absolutely you see that shit fucking people up. Like, horny-

David McIntosh Jr 29:50 Any examples?

Ben Barlow 29:50 ... horny fucking dudes, man. I mean, plenty of fucking examples of horny fucking dudes messaging girls and just fucking around, and just, like, it's a fucking, it's a fucking distraction, man. Like, it is. And it... And I think I never, ever, ever got into music for girls. I think that is the dumbest thing you can get into fucking music to. If you wanna, if you wanna fuck girls, make an OnlyFans. Get a fucking... Be a porn star. Whatever it is. I don't fucking know. But hor-

David McIntosh Jr 30:16 Landing the podcast, you'll learn. [laughs]

Ben Barlow 30:18 Horny d- horny dudes getting into music and being horny fucking perverts has, honestly, it's really tarnished the relation of, uh, of the i- image of pop punk in general as well, and it is horny fucking stupid dudes. And it, and, like- Dude, just pack it in. Stop thinking with your cock. Focus on the fucking music, focus on your friends, and just look for some fucking stability in your... But then again, who am I to fucking say it? Everyone's on their own path. You wanna fuck a load of girls, you wanna blow your life up, cool. Do it.

David McIntosh Jr 30:45 Yeah.

Ben Barlow 30:45 But, um, it's never been my thing, man. I, I've, I've never been that way. Like, I've never wanted to fuck a million girls. I've just wanted, like, s- stability and gr- like, to stay grounded. Like, it's... I've seen too many people fuck their lives up with money, ego, and, like, yeah, just being horny little fucking dickheads.

David McIntosh Jr 31:09 Yeah.

Ben Barlow 31:09 It sucks, man.

David McIntosh Jr 31:10 And I can imagine, like, I'm trying to be empathetic to that type of individual, because when you become-

Ben Barlow 31:14 Mm. Yeah

David McIntosh Jr 31:14 ... famous, specifically through an alternative music scene, no- no one's like, "Here's a therapist, here's a counselor."

Ben Barlow 31:18 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 31:18 "Here, here's a rule book and a manual."

Ben Barlow 31:20 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 31:20 But-

Ben Barlow 31:21 You gotta figure that shit out yourself. Yeah

David McIntosh Jr 31:22 ... but then again, just be a fucking good human as well. Like, like, we're all capable of that. You don't need a rule book for that.

Ben Barlow 31:28 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 31:28 [laughs]

Ben Barlow 31:28 And, and unfortunately, I think music... Excuse me. I think music attracts both of those. It attracts the best people, and the most creative, artistic, loving, caring people, but it also attracts some fucking dickheads as well. And, like, you do just have to navigate that in your own way. And, and yeah, empathy, empathy where empathy is due. Like, you know, maybe, maybe the, these, these sad alternative emo kids who grow up and have all this attention and fame and thing, and they just don't know how to deal with it. And I don't know how anyone's supposed to deal with it, you know? I'm, I'm presenting myself like, "Oh, I'm level-headed," 'cause I've had a... I've been with my wife for 13 years.

David McIntosh Jr 32:03 [laughs]

Ben Barlow 32:03 But, like, you know, I, you could have easily seen it go the other way. Like, and especially on, like, a mental health level, like, I don't think people within music maybe take it seriously enough until it's, like, seriously enough until it's, until it's fucking a problem.

David McIntosh Jr 32:22 Yeah.

Ben Barlow 32:22 You know? Um, which I found myself there, I think more so with, like, boozing and, and, and drugs. Not, like, too hard on the drugs, but just, like, in excess, and not being able to know when to stop, and it just being always available. But, um, that, I've seen that derail a lot of people too, and it's just sad, man. It's, i- it's... You have to navigate it in... You have to have a clear head when you're navigating that shit, and I think drugs, alcohol, girls, booze, parties, fame can easily pull you off, off the, off the track in the wrong way, for sure.

David McIntosh Jr 32:56 I can imagine there's also, not to be doom and gloom about fame, I can imagine in your life there's been so many great upsides of being famous or-

Ben Barlow 33:02 Mm

David McIntosh Jr 33:02 ... owning a genre.

Ben Barlow 33:03 Mm.

David McIntosh Jr 33:03 Like, what are some of the experiences that you think, "Oh my God, if I weren't famous," or, like, "I, I could never have had these," or, "Oh my God," like, "I am so grateful to be-"

Ben Barlow 33:12 Yeah

David McIntosh Jr 33:12 ... "capable of this"?

Ben Barlow 33:14 Um, I have it in, like, really little moments. Like, I have it in, like, mental snapshot moments. Um, honestly, travel and, like, culture does it for me, man. Like, it really does. Like, I remember being about, I think I was, like, 21, 22, it was one of our first or second times in Australia, and being sat on the beach and noticing that the constellations in Austra- in the Southern Hemisphere are different, and just going like, "Wow, I never thought I would see that. I never thought I would see that." And, and I... It really gave me a sense of how far away from home I was, and that's all I ever wanted. And, like, it really was. It's just mental snapshots like that. But then there's obviously moments like meeting heroes. Like-

David McIntosh Jr 33:56 Oh, thanks, mate. [laughs]

Ben Barlow 33:57 Lucky, yeah. Lucky enough to have met you, you know? That's one off the bucket list. Uh, but meeting heroes who turn out to be, to be good people is, is always cool. Um-

David McIntosh Jr 34:07 Can we mention, uh, Mark Hoppus?

Ben Barlow 34:09 Of course we can. Yeah, yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 34:10 Like, that is so fucking sick.

Ben Barlow 34:11 Yeah, dude. Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 34:12 Like, as someone who grew up on your stuff and Blink-

Ben Barlow 34:14 Mm

David McIntosh Jr 34:15 ... like, just seeing you guys be so open about your fandom for Blink-

Ben Barlow 34:20 Yeah

David McIntosh Jr 34:20 ... and then seeing that, like, you have collaborated on tracks, like, tell me about that story. How, how did you go from fan to friend?

Ben Barlow 34:28 Um, well, to be honest, I think sometimes, like, I think there's an element of, like, fans think that when bands collab on stuff that they're all great friends immediately, and that's not always the case. So initially it was a reach out from our label as like, "Hey, do you wanna just, like, jump on this?" Um, but shortly after that we met for the first time, and I think Mark has a- always been the guy from Blink that is the most down to earth and seems the most, like, um, just the most approachable, um, and very friendly, and just, like, I think still really values the beauty of being in a band and, a- and stu- like, he's always working with smaller bands and, and, uh, uh, and doing them favors. So, um, at first it wasn't like a, "Oh my God, we're friends and this is awesome." He was just like, "Yeah, cool. I'll jump on this." But then after touring and, you know, hanging out a little bit, like, he is someone that I can kinda show new music and go like, "Oh, hey, what do you, what do you think of this?" Or, like, talk about video games with now. It's cool. I remember on tour he was playing Pokémon Go a lot, and just being able to walk up to Mark, uh, and his son Jack while they're playing Pokémon and be like, "Me too." Like, uh, cool. Never thought I'd be able to do that.

David McIntosh Jr 35:42 That's wild.

Ben Barlow 35:42 But, like, Mark was one of those where it was like, yeah, meet your heroes, 'cause yeah, they, they are cool. They, they, they can be good people. And so our most recent conversation was about Ghost of Yotei, the game. I was like, "Ah, nice, dude." I saw he 100% it. I was like, "My guy."

David McIntosh Jr 35:57 I'm having, like, a little miniature moment of that now, you know?

Ben Barlow 36:00 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 36:00 Like, I'm, like, in a skatepark about to skate with a hero of mine. Like, like I said, you have been a constant. Like, I've grown up on your music and being able to, like, just send you a DM, and you'd be like, "Yeah, bro, I'll come skate. I'll do a podcast, no bother." Like, it's-

Ben Barlow 36:12 Yeah, I mean-

David McIntosh Jr 36:13 Like, I'm so grateful for this experience, you know? And, like-

Ben Barlow 36:15 Same

David McIntosh Jr 36:15 ... not, not everyone gets the, the opportunity to... Some people live and die and never hear the sound of their own voice.

Ben Barlow 36:19 Mm-hmm.

David McIntosh Jr 36:19 And what I mean by that is that they never get to fully actualize their dreams.

Ben Barlow 36:22 Mm.

David McIntosh Jr 36:22 And there's some times, like, even during this podcast, I'm like, "Oh, that's Ben Barlow." Like, I have to take a little screenshot in my brain.

Ben Barlow 36:27 Yeah. Well, it's a li-

David McIntosh Jr 36:28 I guess I can imagine, though, like, like at your level, do, like- Going from Japan to Brazil to then, like, you could lose track of, like, how remarkable each day is. You know, like-

Ben Barlow 36:38 Yeah

David McIntosh Jr 36:38 ... one day in your life today, or right now, could be, like, 15-year-old's, like, Ben's, like, like, Make A Wish almost, you know? [laughs]

Ben Barlow 36:45 Dude, I mean, yeah, this. Man, I- if you would've told me at 15, like, oh, you... Like, let's, you know, if, if a bunch of my skater mates were like, "Hey, let's go on a road trip up to Glasgow and go skate the loading bay," I'd be like, "Yeah, that sounds like the sickest thing in the world." But yeah, sometimes it can get lost on you, for sure. And like, you know, I'm not saying I'm, like, forever in this state of, like, consciousness, like, grati- graciousness at all times.

David McIntosh Jr 37:09 [laughs]

Ben Barlow 37:10 Sometimes it fucking sucks, man. Sometimes you'll catch me in a fucking terrible mood in the air- Like, I'm, I'm a cranky boy in the airport, and I'm a terrible sleeper too. So if I've had, like, two hours sleep and we're in a fucking airport, yeah, I'm gonna be like, "Fuck this. Get me home. I hate this shit. I'm depressed. I don't want to fucking be here." Um, but you know, you push through. You, you do. And, and it comes with its downsides, you know. I've missed a lot of life from being on tour. Um, you know, lost, lost friends. My dad died while I was on tour, and like, you know, missing big events, missing the birth of, of, of, of kids, you know, friends' kids, or my own nephew. You know, I wasn't there when he was born and stuff. So it does come with, like, a sacrifice. And while, you know, it's... I, I never wanna be like, "Oh, woe is me," that shit can play a, play on your mind, especially when things aren't going well, you know. Um, when you're in an airport and maybe you're on your way to play, like, a bullshit... Like, we've done it before. We've played, we've flown out to play a show, gone through all this effort, the show's sucked, and I'm sat in the airport at 4:00 in the morning. You know, I could've been at home and, and when this is happening or this, and like, yeah, it can, it can be a bummer, man. And like, thinking about the future as well, like, man, having kids and stuff, like, my biggest fear is, like, I don't wanna be this absent dad that's, like, never around and can't be there for his kids because I'm on tour and all this sort of stuff. So it's taking the rough with the smooth. But I got good, good support, and honestly, half the time that's me just getting in my head about it. Most people are like, "Chill the fuck out. You're in... You've got a good life. Have a kid whenever the fuck you want. You can do whatever you want."

David McIntosh Jr 38:57 Mm.

Ben Barlow 38:57 But I'm constantly piling this pressure on. Um-

David McIntosh Jr 39:00 Is it difficult when you see people in, like, the same industry at different extremes? Like, I think about, um, Liam Payne, right?

Ben Barlow 39:06 Mm.

David McIntosh Jr 39:07 Or like, the One Direction lot, or even Justin Bieber or Britney or the- these types of people whereby they are so mollycoddled through their team and security through their most formative years of their life that they never really grow up, at least normally. And given that you guys, I mean, the, the, the disproportionate levels of fame that they had, uh, uh, to you guys, I can imagine your lives were very different. But given the, the inflection in your career and fame was at that most pinnacle moment between, like, childhood and, and teenage-

Ben Barlow 39:37 Yeah, yeah

David McIntosh Jr 39:37 ... uh, and, and young adulthood-

Ben Barlow 39:38 Yeah, a super crucial point, yeah

David McIntosh Jr 39:40 ... have you noticed any things that have been very pertinent in your own kind of development?

Ben Barlow 39:45 I think there's been some arrested development in, in, in-

David McIntosh Jr 39:49 Arrested development, yeah

Ben Barlow 39:49 ... in, in some, in some respects, yeah, for sure. Like, I am so fucking bad at, like, whether this is just my brain anyway, but, like, I'm really, really bad with, like, taxes and shit like that. And I am so lucky that, like, the band has always had an... I've, I've had people to look after the fine details and the logistics of my life since I've been 18, and that has given me arrested development in those senses, for sure. Like, I really struggle with, like, everyday admin and, like, taxes. Even just replying to, like, small things with the band I get so overwhelmed with because I've always had, like, someone else in the band who is good at that area or whatever it may be. So, um, I think a lo- I think maybe that's, you know, the case with some of the people that you mentioned, is like they get put on this pedestal so young. And, like, I have kind of had a, a case of that too, especially being the singer, and I've, I've always kind of fought back against that. And even with the band and stuff too, like, we've always done majority rules. It's total democracy. Very, very, very rarely does any one person ever throw their weight around and, and, and, you know, get what they want, unless it is, you know, a hill worth dying on, basically. Um, but yeah, I think there's been some arrested development in, in some of the more, like, adulting elements of my life, which I do really struggle with, and it does kind of fuck me up. Like, I got diagnosed with ADHD last year, and I've not wanted to be like Mr. Fucking, You Know, Look At Me about it.

David McIntosh Jr 41:29 [laughs]

Ben Barlow 41:29 Um, but it does. That sort of shit is really fucking hard for me to deal with, and because I never had to do uni, I never had to, like, do all this hard shit.

David McIntosh Jr 41:39 Yeah.

Ben Barlow 41:40 So, but you times that by 10 with a Bieber or something like that, like man, fuck. I do not envy anyone, uh, with that level of fame at all. And the aim of Neck Deep was never to be famous. It, it makes me feel... It can make me feel a bit uncomfortable when fame is kind of, like, a factor in an interaction with someone. It's, it kind of throws me off. Like, I, I would much rather meet somebody and hang out with somebody who, who, like, doesn't know who I am really. You know, if, if I go and get my hair cut or like... Oh, well, no, my barber now is chill. But like, if I'm in an Uber, for example, and they're like, "Oh, what you doing here?" I'm like, "School trip."

David McIntosh Jr 42:22 [laughs]

Ben Barlow 42:22 Or like, if they kind of deduce it from, like, the tour bus and stuff, I'm like, "Oh, I'm crew. I, I, I'm a guitar tech." Because I can, I can, I can lie. I can, I can make a believable lie out of that. And I've actually been caught out so bad on this shit once. So there was a coffee shop down the road from where my wife used to tattoo at, and, uh, I was going in this coffee shop, like quite a lot, and I got to know the guy, and he assumed I was a tattooer. And so I just went along with it, and like he would be like, "Oh, what tattoos are you doing today?" And I would just tell him, like, what tattoo my wife was doing.

David McIntosh Jr 42:58 [laughs]

Ben Barlow 42:58 Be like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." But then eventually it got to this point where like, [sighs] "God, I can't keep up this fucking lie anymore." And, uh, I had to... I just had to get out of this lie-

David McIntosh Jr 43:10 [laughs]

Ben Barlow 43:10 ... because I just couldn't be like-

David McIntosh Jr 43:11 [laughs]

Ben Barlow 43:12 ... "I'm actually in a band, and you're gonna go and check us out, and you're gonna listen to it, and then you're gonna talk to me about the band." Like I, you know, I kinda just wanna have normal conversations with people and, and-

David McIntosh Jr 43:20 That's where you say, like, you're the local MP for Reform or something [laughs] so I stop trying.

Ben Barlow 43:23 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 43:24 [laughs]

Ben Barlow 43:25 No. Everyone will fucking hate me then.

David McIntosh Jr 43:26 [laughs]

Ben Barlow 43:27 Falling with the wrong crowd there. Yeah. Fucking hell.

David McIntosh Jr 43:29 That's hilarious, man.

Ben Barlow 43:30 Um, so yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 43:31 What, what else do we need to know about being the frontman of a band? Like, when I watch you live, you're not only lead singer and vocalist, you're also like a compere, a comedy gig almost, or like an MC or like a comedian.

Ben Barlow 43:43 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 43:43 'Cause you have to, like, bridge between songs, make people laugh-

Ben Barlow 43:46 Yeah, yeah

David McIntosh Jr 43:46 ... build a sense of community. What do people not see about the process of being a frontman?

Ben Barlow 43:51 Um, yeah, I think that sort of stuff. Like, thinking about the message that you're putting out. Um, and like, I think my role in the band that, you know, as I've said, I'm, I'm pretty useless with admin, logistics, that sort of stuff, but I'm always thinking of, like, what's, what's the idea? What's the big goal? What's the, what's the theme? What's the message? That's, that's all I think about, and I think, yeah, maybe people don't see that as often, and it does even come down to, like, what I say in between songs and shit like that, and like statements that we make about the band that we are. You know, a lot of that I think comes from me, um, and kinda always has, and that can be a lot of pressure, you know? Like, I've gotta define the band's message, and not necessarily direction, but like, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm kinda doing that. And get that wrong or... 'Cause I, I don't wanna alienate people either or isolate people. I do think that our band should be for everyone, like regardless of who you are, what you believe, or anything like that. Um, and so trying to find that balance of, like, how do I reach these kids is-

David McIntosh Jr 45:17 [laughs]

Ben Barlow 45:18 ... is the... That's the... That's, that, that can be tough. Um, but also yeah, just like juggling, juggling real life and band life has been really tough, man. Like it, it's always been really, really hard. Um, being these two kinda separate people with different responsibilities and different goals, trying to balance that has always been tough. And, and it's really hard to explain, I think, unless-

David McIntosh Jr 45:51 This is like a champagne problem a little bit, isn't it?

Ben Barlow 45:52 Yeah, it is. It is. It's, it's good problems and, you know, it... I always say, like, "I'm not complaining, just explaining," is, is kinda how I... how it comes... 'Cause I never wanna complain about the position that I'm in, but like, you know, it's, it's not all, it's not all fucking gigs and after parties and, and, and, you know-

David McIntosh Jr 46:10 Private jets and shit

Ben Barlow 46:11 ... private... No, man. It's fucking economy most of the time, dude. You'll fucking catch us flying economy all the time. If we're in business, it's because we've, like, built up a load of points and got, like, a cheap business, and we're like, "Yeah, let's sort of do this."

David McIntosh Jr 46:22 Yeah.

Ben Barlow 46:23 Yeah, like-

David McIntosh Jr 46:23 And really nice to the hostess, and said please and thank you on the gate.

Ben Barlow 46:26 Yeah, dude. Yeah, absolutely. But then again, that's why I say rich people being fucking weird, man. Jesus. Like, the people you see flying business, fuck, I feel like slapping some of them, man. Like, how rude and entitled can you be where you just, like, don't even acknowledge people or like... Yeah, just, just odd, man. Odd.

David McIntosh Jr 46:44 And, and I guess when you have ridden the coattails of providing solace to typically people who are quite emo in nature-

Ben Barlow 46:53 Mm-hmm

David McIntosh Jr 46:54 ... it's actually part of i- sh- I'm presuming it's part of your DNA to never get out of touch because you're always rooting for the average person.

Ben Barlow 47:00 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 47:00 Because you see yourself as the average person.

Ben Barlow 47:02 Yeah, I mean, I think where I'm from massively i- has determined a lot of that. Like, if you start getting too big for your boots in Wrexham, like, someone's gonna knock you down a peg pretty quick. Um, and just, like, because I grew up in a place that was, was constantly reminded, like, "This is a shit hole, and you'll never do anything here, and everywhere else is so much better than where you're from," it gives you this... It does kinda ground you as to, like, well, look, I grew up in this place that had nothing and that didn't have much going for it. And so... And I was, and I was happy then, and, and I enjoyed that then. So anything from here is just a bonus, and don't lose sight of the person that you were when you just got started with this shit. Because ultimately, that's what people fell in love with, and, and that's who you really are, I think. You know, we all change and develop and we grow, but, like, if you lose sight of your core values and, um, yeah, you start, you start selling them off for, for money or, or fame or whatever, like, I just think that's fast track to just, like, losing everything important in your life and losing the things that really matter in your life. And who's to say what that is? You define that for yourself. But mine has always been family, friends, and just, like, uh, not holistic, like cathartic and holistic experiences that are rooted in the real world and not by an impression of you or what people think of you from social media or your music or whatever. It's just been be true to yourself.

David McIntosh Jr 48:39 It's, it's simple.

Ben Barlow 48:40 Simple. Simple shit, really, but-

David McIntosh Jr 48:42 Ben, one of the things I love about Neck Deep and the lyrics that you write, specifically in a genre that- ... encapsulates a lot of people th- that struggle. Like, and I, I was one of those kind of lost, lonely, working class young men-

Ben Barlow 48:55 Yeah

David McIntosh Jr 48:55 ... who was unseen, unheard, going through some tough shit.

Ben Barlow 48:59 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 48:59 Was the... In, in a genre where that is the norm or is q- quite the average of the type of person that consumes that type of music-

Ben Barlow 49:07 Yeah

David McIntosh Jr 49:08 ... maybe I'm just generalizing, but from the people that I know that also like Neck Deep, it's kind of consistent-

Ben Barlow 49:12 Yeah

David McIntosh Jr 49:12 ... is that usually lyrics are quite grave and quite depressing in nature. But what Neck Deep has done has provided... I mean, there is a lot of kind of dark and deep stuff-

Ben Barlow 49:22 Yeah, yeah

David McIntosh Jr 49:22 ... but also there's such a plethora of hopeful messages that you could imagine in a self-development book or on-

Ben Barlow 49:28 Yeah, yeah

David McIntosh Jr 49:28 ... like fucking Ch- our mate Chris Williamson's podcast or whatever.

Ben Barlow 49:31 Yeah, yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 49:31 Like, life's not out to get you, smooth seas don't make good sailors.

Ben Barlow 49:35 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 49:36 All these things were things that despite being an emo, emotive kid, quite a goth, there was hope, and it was delivered through a voice and a message and a medium that was resonant.

Ben Barlow 49:47 Mm-hmm.

David McIntosh Jr 49:47 And I... It's one of the reasons I love comedy as well. Like, there were some times I was so blind to some political issues or sociological issues that were going on, but then it was delivered through a voice of a well-respected comedian that I liked, and I was like, "Oh, that sh- that sweetens the pill-"

Ben Barlow 50:00 Yeah, yeah, yeah

David McIntosh Jr 50:00 ... some of these messages. And I think your music was essentially like a self-development manual for me-

Ben Barlow 50:06 Yeah

David McIntosh Jr 50:07 ... uh, to deal with grief, to deal with heartbreak, to deal with growing up, to deal with seeing my parents in different ways. And I just kind of want to end this podcast in, in saying that, like, thank you for that, man.

Ben Barlow 50:16 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 50:16 Thank... And, and, and not just on behalf of me, but on behalf of the whole community that support Neck Deep. And, uh, when it, when... You know, it's quite a, a weird experience as a, as a fan. Like, like I said, I kind of grew up 2012, 2013, uh, listening to A Part of Me, watching that YouTube era, and no- no one around me actually knowing Neck Deep actually because it was, like, on the fringe of society.

Ben Barlow 50:37 Yeah, yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 50:37 And then going to a gig of yours and then just seeing, like, thousands of people just like me.

Ben Barlow 50:42 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 50:42 And I'm like, "Oh, these guys." It's... They weren't just speaking to me.

Ben Barlow 50:44 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 50:44 They were speaking to thousands of people.

Ben Barlow 50:45 Right.

David McIntosh Jr 50:45 And I just want to thank you for that, man.

Ben Barlow 50:47 Yeah, no worries. Thank you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for finding some meaning in it, man. That's like, that's, that's the key to it all. Like, you know, as soon as you find something that speaks to you, and hopefully our music does, that's, that's the key to it all. But yeah, it's a beautiful thing turning up to a gig and, and, and realize it, especially, you know, growing up in Wrexham thinking that no... There was no alternative kids in my school, or there was two girls who were alternative girls in my high school, and I was a bit of a jack of all trades. I was like, I, like, was good at football and was on the football team, but I had, like, the, the scene. I had, like, a scene little emo haircut and that. I'd be wearing tracksuit bottoms and listening to Job for a Cowboy and, like, going past the, the two scene girls, like, like showing them what I was listening to on this, like-

David McIntosh Jr 51:30 I have a piercing. [laughs]

Ben Barlow 51:31 So yeah. So but when you turn up to a gig in your local town, it's like, "Whoa, there's a whole... There's like 2, 300 people from this whole area that think and feel just like me." And if we can do that for people, yeah, fuck yeah. And like, I don't know, I- I think Life's Not Out To Get You specifically and that message of positivity, that album is, like, so directly and blatantly about that. It is kind of a self-help book. But I think because at the time what you were seeing was a kid who had struggled, because all the music before then was like, "Ah, my life, girls, blah, moving on, growing up sucks." And then Life's Not To Get You came along, and it's like, "Well, I've been doing the band for the last two, three years, and I'm having the time of my life, and I feel like I've figured out what it's all about." And like, we kept having kids come up to us, um, especially on Warped Tour in America, and they were... It was, it was quite intense. I had a lot of, like, intense interactions, you know, receiving people's used razor blades and stuff like that. It was a lot for, like, a, an 18, 19-year-old kid to be like, "Whoa, this is, this is a lot." So I was like, "I want to be the band that's stop... that makes kids want to not do that." You know? That, that gives them a- an out when they're feeling like, you know, going down that road and, um, that's exactly what we did. And I think that it had the exact desired effect, which was like, hell yeah. People don't see us as the band now that they're gonna cut themselves to. They see us as the band that, like, they're gonna stop doing that, you know? That, that, that's the band that got them to stop doing that or that got them to just view the world differently. And I think with Life's Not To Get You, that is such a... It is such its own thing. Like, I do feel like that is one of those albums that is just like a sort of its own little time capsule. Um, so I don't think we could write that record again. I don't think anyone could do that record again. Um, and it's a little cheesy. It's a little corny at points, but, like, it just has this very direct message that spoke to so many people that, like... Yeah, I'm really, really proud of that record and, and the message that it's got. And, and while we've grown up and our message has become a bit more nuanced, there is still always a little hook of positivity, of a different outlook, of a, of a message to, like, take away from something that isn't all doom and gloom. And that can be hard to do. And, um, I think we've, we've positioned ourselves to, like, be that band for people, and I'm more than, more than happy to be that band. Like, you know, we might not be, like, selling you a glamorous lifestyle or, like, whatever, but we are giving you hopefully a little guide to life and, uh, something that'll get you through, get you through the tough times, be the soundtrack to your best times.

David McIntosh Jr 54:24 And dude, I'm living proof of that, man. Like, I was having a bit of a sentimental grounding moment this morning. I was looking at old videos in my camera roll from, like, 10 years ago learning your songs on guitar.

Ben Barlow 54:33 Nice. Nice.

David McIntosh Jr 54:34 And just, uh, just seeing how my own life's improved, you know? And, like, when I look at my Spotify Wrapped or Unwrapped, whatever it's called, it's always Neck Deep.

Ben Barlow 54:42 Thanks, man.

David McIntosh Jr 54:42 And th- that's carried me through. Like, I've grown up on that stuff, like literally grown up as a, as a person because of your music. So, uh, I just want to say thank you on-

Ben Barlow 54:50 Thank you

David McIntosh Jr 54:50 ... behalf of, uh, uh, me, but everyone else that feels the same. Ben Barlow, everyone. [upbeat music] One sec.

Ben Barlow 55:01 With skating, there is a huge element of being cool.

David McIntosh Jr 55:05 [laughs]

Ben Barlow 55:05 Like, that is just how it fucking goes. Like, there's no two ways about it. Everybody's favorite skaters are generally the coolest skaters, like not even necessarily the best skaters, like, like, like Luan Oliveira, for i- Luan Oliveira-

David McIntosh Jr 55:19 Oh, yeah

Ben Barlow 55:19 ... for example. Amazing technical ability, like the nicest, most technically perfect flip tricks you can imagine.

David McIntosh Jr 55:26 Manufactured almost.

Ben Barlow 55:27 Exactly. Whereas somebody like, um, like a Dylan Rieder or like a Ben Cadé or something-

David McIntosh Jr 55:35 Or like, or like a Jos Hermo- uh, Hermange, is that his name?

Ben Barlow 55:37 Yeah, yeah-

David McIntosh Jr 55:38 Jos Hermange

Ben Barlow 55:38 ... yeah, yeah. Like Jos isn't like, again, he's not like the coolest skater, so, but-

David McIntosh Jr 55:43 There's also-

Ben Barlow 55:44 I mean, what Jos does is like so Jos though. Like it's only him that does it, but that's what makes him cool, it's unique.

David McIntosh Jr 55:51 Yeah.

Ben Barlow 55:51 Um, but-

David McIntosh Jr 55:52 Is that Alan Anderson, that guy does the-

Ben Barlow 55:54 A-

David McIntosh Jr 55:54 ... does the thing-

Ben Barlow 55:54 Andy Anderson

David McIntosh Jr 55:55 Andy Anderson [laughs]

Ben Barlow 55:55 Andy. Man, honestly, he gets so much shit for not being cool, and like, yeah, in a way I get it, like okay-

David McIntosh Jr 56:06 Mm-hmm

Ben Barlow 56:06 ... the hat, the, the, the, the hat helmet thing-

David McIntosh Jr 56:09 [laughs] Oh, yeah

Ben Barlow 56:09 ... can be a little goofy, and like-

David McIntosh Jr 56:11 [laughs]

Ben Barlow 56:11 Bro. [laughs]

David McIntosh Jr 56:15 That's cooler than anything we just said. [laughs]

Ben Barlow 56:17 Exactly. Exactly.

David McIntosh Jr 56:19 Oh, that guy's sick.

Ben Barlow 56:21 Um-

David McIntosh Jr 56:21 Oh, nice

Ben Barlow 56:21 ... but he gets, he gets shit, and like, but really he is probably, no shit... Hey. [laughs]

David McIntosh Jr 56:34 [laughs]

Ben Barlow 56:35 Oh my God.

David McIntosh Jr 56:35 Oh, back tail this, man.

Ben Barlow 56:38 Little dog piss I think they are. I think it's called dog piss.

David McIntosh Jr 56:41 [laughs]

Ben Barlow 56:41 Um, but Andy Anderson's probably the most technically gifted skater, like in the world, man.

David McIntosh Jr 56:46 Yeah.

Ben Barlow 56:46 Like fully, like yeah, he's unreal.

David McIntosh Jr 56:48 I'd like to look at, even like, like a Jos, for example, I'd love, like do you know that Andrew Hero man guy-

Ben Barlow 56:52 Yeah, yeah

David McIntosh Jr 56:52 ... did like a meta-analysis of his whole body, like-

Ben Barlow 56:54 Yeah?

David McIntosh Jr 56:54 Like, like what's up with his knees and like joints?

Ben Barlow 56:57 [laughs] Everything.

David McIntosh Jr 56:58 Yeah. [laughs]

Ben Barlow 56:59 Man, I'm watching him, uh, was it at, I think it was Leon or, or I can't remember which one it was where he fucking like bites through his fucking-

David McIntosh Jr 57:10 Ooh.

Ben Barlow 57:10 Oh my God, dude. Like just props for that enough, but yeah, I think the helmet thing i- is a, is a sense of like skating is inherently dangerous, and I think anything that you do to like minimize the danger factor in it makes it less sort of core skating.

David McIntosh Jr 57:30 Yeah.

Ben Barlow 57:30 Like the, the, the risk is there. Like that Tom Sharp part, like dude, there was shit that he was doing in that part that like he could've fucking died-

David McIntosh Jr 57:37 Yeah, yeah

Ben Barlow 57:37 ... doing that shit. Like you bail on that and you- and none of it... Like dude, doing that fucking um, that massive disaster on the, in, in Philly at FDR, like on the vert wall, like if he-

David McIntosh Jr 57:48 Oh, yeah, yeah

Ben Barlow 57:48 ... stacks that, like man, he, he could fucking... He probably wouldn't, like you know-

David McIntosh Jr 57:53 That would've been like-

Ben Barlow 57:54 But oh, the risk

David McIntosh Jr 57:54 ... 1.5 times this, that, that wall right there-

Ben Barlow 57:57 Yeah

David McIntosh Jr 57:57 ... right?

Ben Barlow 57:57 Dude.

David McIntosh Jr 57:57 That would've been like with the riffers.

Ben Barlow 57:59 I have seen that in real life. Uh, I've not skated FDR 'cause it's a pretty like local, heavy anti-suck transition, but man, it's, it's honestly probably up there. Like I'm not even fucking joking. That, that vert wall that he did that, it's a bridge support. Like it's-

David McIntosh Jr 58:15 [laughs]

Ben Barlow 58:15 ... fucking enormous.

David McIntosh Jr 58:17 Yeah, they never built this dude.

Ben Barlow 58:17 It's probably like up to the fucking girders straight up, like yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 58:21 Sick, man.

Ben Barlow 58:21 I love that shit, man. I just love, again, not living life by standard terms, so anyone who has just got the balls and the dedication-

David McIntosh Jr 58:31 You know what? I, uh-

Ben Barlow 58:31 ... to do something like that for what they love, just for the, just for the sake of it, of like what... Ultimately he did that trick because it's cool, because it looks cool. Like someone who is gonna put their life on the line to do a badass trick [laughs] not for money, not for fucking like status or anyth- ah, maybe a bit of status. Just ultimately 'cause it looks cool and because I want to.

David McIntosh Jr 58:50 I was saying this to, uh, Jimmy Carr the other week-

Ben Barlow 58:52 Yeah

David McIntosh Jr 58:52 ... a bit like-

Ben Barlow 58:53 That's sick. That's really cool

David McIntosh Jr 58:53 ... like, uh, skateboarding and comedy are the same thing.

Ben Barlow 58:56 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 58:56 Like 'cause like comedians do a work in progress show, they have like a smell of an idea-

Ben Barlow 58:59 Yeah, yeah

David McIntosh Jr 58:59 ... and they're like, "Can we test this-

Ben Barlow 59:01 Mm-hmm

David McIntosh Jr 59:01 ... and see what lands?"

Ben Barlow 59:02 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 59:02 Like Evel Knievel gets paid for the attempt, not the stunt.

Ben Barlow 59:05 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 59:06 Yeah?

Ben Barlow 59:06 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 59:06 And same with comedians, man, like in the work in progress shows. And like a n- the joke doesn't make sense until it does.

Ben Barlow 59:12 Yeah, yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 59:12 Same with skateboarding, you just see a young guy throwing himself down 20 stairs-

Ben Barlow 59:15 Yeah, yeah

David McIntosh Jr 59:15 ... but then when he lands bolts and runs away you're like, "Oh, that's a-"

Ben Barlow 59:18 That's what all that was about.

David McIntosh Jr 59:19 [laughs] Yeah.

Ben Barlow 59:19 All of those like, you know, missed punchlines or whatever it may be, eventually it will pay off for the big thing, yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 59:26 But it's, yeah, it's like nonsense till it's not.

Ben Barlow 59:29 Yeah, yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 59:29 You know what I mean?

Ben Barlow 59:29 How was Jimmy Carr? Was that cool?

David McIntosh Jr 59:31 Yeah, he's, that's the second time he's come back on.

Ben Barlow 59:33 Yeah, I was gonna say, you've seen him twice, right?

David McIntosh Jr 59:34 Yeah.

Ben Barlow 59:34 That's fucking awesome.

David McIntosh Jr 59:35 He is deeply different than what you would expect of him.

Ben Barlow 59:38 Mm.

David McIntosh Jr 59:38 So online he's this kind of like deeply dark, insensitive, quite arrogant, quite confrontational dude. In real life he's really sincere, really sympathetic, empathetic, very wise.

Ben Barlow 59:52 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 59:52 And, uh, a lot of what people don't see, I heard a few stories from the comedy scene where he really looked after really unwell, really sick comedians-

Ben Barlow 59:59 Nice

David McIntosh Jr 59:59 ... both financially and emotionally, like on the phone every night.

Ben Barlow 1:00:01 Good.

David McIntosh Jr 1:00:02 Uh, and like beyond some of the controversial stuff around tax or maybe-

Ben Barlow 1:00:06 Yeah, yeah

David McIntosh Jr 1:00:06 ... doing the Riyadh Comedy Festival, like fundamentally he's a good human.

Ben Barlow 1:00:09 Yeah.

David McIntosh Jr 1:00:10 And the, the world doesn't... Like I didn't, I'm not sure, but I wanted it to see that. I didn't want to believe that, and then after like meeting him a couple of times like both on and off camera, man, actual stellar dude.

Ben Barlow 1:00:19 Cool.

David McIntosh Jr 1:00:19 Surprisingly.

Ben Barlow 1:00:20 Yeah, I saw a couple clips of him recently and like all talking about like politics and, uh, and tax and all this, and like the solutions he offers up aren't that of a politician. And so maybe there's like, you know, there's criticism there. But like when he does give a political take I don't feel like he's, he's too ideological in what he's saying. I think he generally is like, okay, he's a rich and privileged guy, so there's gonna be an element of him looking out for his interests and looking out for his mates and stuff. But I don't think he does it in a way that's like insidious and he covers it up. He's sort of quite straightforward about his views on things, and still is a lot more, um, charitable and, and sort of conscious of, of those, the less fortunate than he probably gives off initially.

David McIntosh Jr 1:01:02 Mm.

Ben Barlow 1:01:02 Like you know what I mean? He- I think he's just nuanced. I think it's a, he's a nuanced guy, and like the things that he's saying, while they're not for everyone, he says them I think relatively fairly. And I think that's probably a big part of like politics and society right now is everybody wanting to be fucking right, and everybody wanting to... And giving other people absolutely no fucking ground whatsoever. Like, I'm a staunch lefty guy. Like, you know.

David McIntosh Jr 1:01:27 Leftie boys.

Ben Barlow 1:01:28 I'm very, yeah, very socialist, but like at the same time I don't think that we're gonna win over the disillusioned people on the right who are pissed off at the wrong... You know, are pissed off at immigrants, pissed off at fucking trans people. Um, we're not gonna win them over by being like, "Rah, you're the fucking pa-..." There needs to be a com- There needs to be a nuanced sort of common goal, and people's focus needs to be taken away.

David McIntosh Jr 1:01:51 And conversation, not debate all the time-

Ben Barlow 1:01:53 Yeah

David McIntosh Jr 1:01:53 ... as well.

Ben Barlow 1:01:54 Yeah. And, and not expecting people to be perfect as well is, is, is I think was the problem with the left. Um, was, it was, it was, it was... Not to use a, a thing, but it's, it's, it's a bit like purity politics. Like, yes, we can... Absolutely human rights for everybody, women's rights, trans rights, that is, that is a basic. And you know, I think as soon as people start denying that, then there's a bit of an issue. But when you started, I think if you go back six, seven, eight, nine, 10 years, um, it's like the left started with words. Like, "We have to start policing people's words." And then people who are just like moderate or in the middle, it's like going, "Hang on. Stop, stop telling me what words I kind of can't use." And that overshadows the much more integral parts of the left-wing message, which is rights and equality and access to out- healthcare, education, housing for everyone.

David McIntosh Jr 1:02:49 Social services.

Ben Barlow 1:02:49 That's the, that's the key part of it. But instead it got blown up. Like in the culture war I think was a kind of a, a media manufactured thing and a politics manufactured thing, but like the left really played into it. And I think only now is the left kinda going, "Shit, did we play that hand a bit too fucking early? Should we have started with the fucking social mobility message first?" I don't know. But then it's been a, it's been a long battle, but I'm on the side of unity and reminding people whose side that they should be on, and that, you know, forgiveness and, and, uh, and understanding and nuance I think is something that is so fucking lost on people. Um-

David McIntosh Jr 1:03:34 It's, it's also strange seeing some of my friends who have become socially mobile-

Ben Barlow 1:03:37 Mm-hmm

David McIntosh Jr 1:03:37 ... from very similar backgrounds to myself-

Ben Barlow 1:03:39 Mm-hmm

David McIntosh Jr 1:03:40 ... who then try and like incorporate their business in Dubai-

Ben Barlow 1:03:43 Yeah

David McIntosh Jr 1:03:43 ... or stop paying their taxes. And I'm like-

Ben Barlow 1:03:45 They, they turncoat it, man. Yeah. They-

David McIntosh Jr 1:03:47 I'm like, you grew up on benefits in the same way that I did.

Ben Barlow 1:03:49 Yeah, man.

David McIntosh Jr 1:03:49 Like you grew up in a council state in welfare supported housing like I did. Like, don't turn your back on that com- the exact same community-

Ben Barlow 1:03:56 Yeah

David McIntosh Jr 1:03:56 ... or the exact same services-

Ben Barlow 1:03:58 Yeah

David McIntosh Jr 1:03:58 ... that, uh, lifted you out of poverty.

Ben Barlow 1:04:00 Yeah, 100%. And like it's-

David McIntosh Jr 1:04:01 But it's because of this, uh, this new age-

Ben Barlow 1:04:03 Grindset.

David McIntosh Jr 1:04:04 Yeah. Yeah

Ben Barlow 1:04:04 Grindset. Fucking, uh, what's it called? The fucking, um, a meritocracy, which like, yeah, you should be rewarded for your hard work, but it doesn't mean that people that can't work or don't have the means or the access to be able to, to give themselves a, a head start in life should just, you know, that they're written off as fucking, um, as layabouts or scroungers or just less than, you know? I think the second you start putting yourself above anyone else, especially on the grounds of like social standing or financial shit, like I feel like you lose part of your soul. Like, you really fucking do, and I think a lot of young lads I feel got pushed away from the left because they felt as though their words and were being, were being policed and all this sort of stuff. Like, I know it. Like you talk to a fucking random dude down at the pub who don't really care about politics, but has got a vendetta against the left, and it's always, "Well, it's fucking just PC and all this fucking shit."

David McIntosh Jr 1:05:05 Mm-hmm.

Ben Barlow 1:05:05 And it's like-

David McIntosh Jr 1:05:06 They're here stealing our jobs and all that.

Ben Barlow 1:05:07 Yeah. And, and then that then... A- and then I don't know how that snowballs, and I also don't know how like, um, the health world somehow snowballs into fucking, "Oh, I'm also a right-wing ideologue now because this guy told me to eat eggs."

David McIntosh Jr 1:05:23 [laughs]

Ben Barlow 1:05:23 Like I've had an old friend of mine who I'm not mates with anymore because he said some abhorrent shit to me. Um, like bad shit, and it stems from COVID melting everyone's fucking brain, and then this like alternative health lifestyle bullshit is somehow packaged in with-

David McIntosh Jr 1:05:45 [laughs]

Ben Barlow 1:05:45 ... fucking hating trans people and hating fucking DEI and all this shit. And ultimately I think it is just sad, lonely dudes who feel isolated, and then these fucking grifters-

David McIntosh Jr 1:05:58 Yeah, like Andrew Tate

Ben Barlow 1:05:59 ... tell them something that they like the sound of, and then it's fucking just all downhill from there, whereas I feel like that needs to be flipped on its head where like, okay, maybe the left needs to get on some like healthier lifestyle shit.

David McIntosh Jr 1:06:09 Yeah.

Ben Barlow 1:06:09 Maybe the left need to-

David McIntosh Jr 1:06:09 Or promote agency. Like, like I feel like a lot of the left felt so systemically undone by or hard done by-

Ben Barlow 1:06:17 Yeah, yeah

David McIntosh Jr 1:06:17 ... that they're like, "I have no control over my outcomes in life."

Ben Barlow 1:06:20 Mm-hmm.

David McIntosh Jr 1:06:20 But then I come across an Andrew Tate who's like, "Well, if you eat eggs and go carnivore-"

Ben Barlow 1:06:24 Yeah, yeah, yeah

David McIntosh Jr 1:06:25 ... uh-

Ben Barlow 1:06:26 Yo

David McIntosh Jr 1:06:26 ... respect your brotherhood and get up at 6:00 AM and train and box-

Ben Barlow 1:06:28 Yeah

David McIntosh Jr 1:06:28 ... and you'll be able to fight, then, then your life can get better. So no wonder that, that narrative-

Ben Barlow 1:06:32 Yeah

David McIntosh Jr 1:06:32 ... kind of attracted that, you know-

Ben Barlow 1:06:33 Yeah

David McIntosh Jr 1:06:33 ... systemically failed.

Ben Barlow 1:06:35 They, well, they, they offer a pragmatic solution, and most, and most blokes want pragmatic solutions, you know? Most guys see themselves as like problem solvers and that sort of stuff. And so when a guy comes along and offers them a solution, a tangible solution, you can see why they fall into it, whereas, you know, I feel like the left is just alienate those people a bit and like no... Yeah. And I, I think it's worth having like a nuanced conversation about it and being able to criticize the left and say like, look, you know, everything is a noble and worthy fight, and I do believe in everything that the left is, is fighting for, but I think there's gotta be a sort of, a tactic, a roadmap and/or, or some nuance. Like we've, we have to get people on side. Like when you get... There's a new lyric I've written, and it's like, "The tough times got good men turning bad." Like a lot of these guys are good guys. They are good people that really ultimately just want safety, security, you know. Uh, they wanna be fed. They want a house, and that, and that's kinda it.

David McIntosh Jr 1:07:39 Want the right things, but delivered in the wrong way.

Ben Barlow 1:07:41 But they just, yeah. But they've just been... But they're trying to get it in just this weird dictori- dictatorial sort of, yeah, just kinda, kinda nasty way. Um-

David McIntosh Jr 1:07:52 I'm kinda laughing at the transgression of conversation from like A- Aaron Joseph Wilkie-

Ben Barlow 1:07:56 I know. I know

David McIntosh Jr 1:07:57 ... straight to UK politics and Tate. Like-

Ben Barlow 1:07:59 I know, dude

David McIntosh Jr 1:07:59 ... this is the most broad pod- We're talking about crypto now, mate. [laughs]

Ben Barlow 1:08:01 Yeah. Fucking hell, man. Don't get me on crypto, but bro, I'm, I'm such a fucking sucker, right? I am such a fucking sucker for being sold shit. Like if a dude in the street is like, "Here, buy my mixtape for 20 quid", I'm like, "Yeah, sure, man. Yeah." Like, I've done that in New York when I was dead young. Like I'm such a sucker. If someone wants to get me for charity, I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah." Um, which that I don't mind, but I-

David McIntosh Jr 1:08:27 You're like, "Yeah, I'll pay £20 a month for a dyslexic Labrador." [laughs]

Ben Barlow 1:08:29 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I'm still paying, I, I'm, I'm still paying a tenner a month to some like random Indonesian charity that I got fucking hassled at the airport for, but I'm like, "Oh, whatever. Tenner a month."