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Origin Story w/ David McIntosh JrOrigin Story w/ David McIntosh Jr

BEN BARLOW (NECK DEEP) Interview: The Origin Story

Ben Barlow is the lead vocalist of Neck Deep — the Welsh pop-punk band formed in Wrexham in 2012 that’s become one of Britain’s biggest modern rock exports. Neck Deep are one of my favourite bands. In this episode of Origin Story, we do it properly: in a skatepark — because skate culture and pop-punk aren’t aesthetics… they’re a philosophy. Ben talks about growing up in skateparks, why “living on your own terms” became his whole life assignment, and how the band went from posting “What Did You Expect?” online to global tours, viral hits, and over a billion streams. We go deep on authenticity vs trends, attention as currency, and why subculture feels like it’s dying — then we zoom right in again: what fame does to young men, how Ben avoided the “rockstar trap,” and the real costs of life on the road (including the moments you miss that don’t show up on Instagram). And then the episode turns into the stuff fans actually care about: the emotional engine behind the early songs, how Life’s Not Out To Get You became a lifeline for people, and why Ben still believes human art cuts through even in an AI era. About Neck Deep: Neck Deep are a Welsh pop-punk band formed in Wrexham in 2012, originally sparked when Ben Barlow and guitarist Lloyd Roberts posted “What Did You Expect?” online — a DIY start that snowballed into a decade-plus career of major chart success and global touring. Their latest chapter includes the self-titled album Neck Deep (released Jan 19, 2024 via Hopeless Records), described by the band as a “return to roots” record made in-house with Ben’s brother Seb involved in the process. Expect to learn: Why skateparks produce “no status games” — and what that teaches you about life The real story of early Neck Deep: DIY beginnings, heartbreak fuel, instant traction Style vs substance (in skating and in music) — and why “being yourself” wins long-term Attention economy, trend culture, and why “effort” became social currency Fame, relationships, and how to stay grounded when your life goes nuclear Why Life’s Not Out To Get You hit so hard, and how Ben thinks about responsibility to fans AI, authenticity, and why human-made art still matters Instagram: @davidmcintoshjrPatreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/davidmcintoshjr/aboutSubstack: https://substack.com/@davidmcintoshjr?Merch: https://originstoryclub.co.uk/ NeutonicFor clean focus and productivity support: Neutonic.Use code DAVID for a discount.Link: https://www.neutonic.com?sca_ref=10212353.vP3Eab049B&utm_source=uppromote&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_campaign=263773

David McIntosh JrhostBen Barlowguest
Jan 18, 20261h 8mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:10

    Intro

    1. DJ

      [upbeat music]

  2. 0:10 – 2:50

    Skatepark setting: why skating and pop-punk feel like home

    1. DJ

      Ben Barlow

    2. BB

      Will, Ryan. How are you?

    3. DJ

      The front man of my favorite band, right? We're in a skatepark. W- I grew up in a skatepark. I grew up listening to Neck Deep. I'm a can of Monster and some cyber billing away from reliving my childhood trauma. [laughs]

    4. BB

      [laughs] Well, we've replaced the Monster for-

    5. DJ

      Productivity [laughs]

    6. BB

      ... you know, productivity drinks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, man, same. Yeah, I very much grew up in skateparks. I think the skate culture went pretty hand-in-hand with the type of music that, you know, we do. And, um, yeah, I think that skateboarding was kind of the start of it all for me really, and yeah. So-

    7. DJ

      Yeah

    8. BB

      ... I'm very much in a, in a natural environment now, yeah.

    9. DJ

      Dude, we were kind of joking before how we record, that you look at someone that votes something extreme like Reform, and you can kind of guess their kind of entire palette of life.

    10. BB

      Yeah, yeah.

    11. DJ

      And then I think it's the same for skateboarding, man. Like, if you know a skateboarder, you know what habits they have, what music they listen to-

    12. BB

      Yep

    13. DJ

      ... how they dress.

    14. BB

      Yeah.

    15. DJ

      And I think we s- we mostly fit that stereotype right now.

    16. BB

      Yeah. You can tar us all with the same kind of brush-

    17. DJ

      [laughs]

    18. BB

      ... roughly, I think. Yeah. Um, yeah, I was saying as well, like, I think rocking up to a skatepark, especially if it's a local outdoor in the summer, and just being able to, like, connect with people over, over skating or over a joint or over some music or whatever is like, makes me feel normal. You know what I mean? I do that for a little sense of normality. Especially COVID was the last time I was, like, skating heavily, and, like, going to the skatepark to just, like, be with my people was, was nice. Yeah. Um, but yeah, unless you're Tim Pool. You... He's, he's the outlier. He's a, yeah, he's a, he's a knob. But, um, most skaters are sound, man. Most skaters are just like, wanna smoke weed, hang out, and kind of live life on their own terms. I think that's why it's, like, appealing to me, I think.

    19. DJ

      Yeah.

    20. BB

      I've never re- I've... Ever since I was a kid, I had punk thrust onto me pretty young, thanks to a, a green-haired older brother. And he worked in a skatepark and everything, and so there has always been this idea for me of, like, an alternative and kind of living your own way, you know? As long as you're not hurting anyone or, you know, causing trouble, like, I think living life on your own terms is kind of, like, what's been my, my goal really.

    21. DJ

      Yeah.

    22. BB

      And kind of like, never wanted a normal job, never wanted a desk job or anything like that. Um, and just being able to live life on my terms, being able to fucking smoke weed, hang out, you know, watch movies and documentaries as, as part of inspiration and shit. You know what I mean? I'm not just clocking in. And, like, everything I do is kind of all kind of part of this life I've chosen to live, which is nice. It's all kind of linked together.

  3. 2:50 – 6:05

    Skateparks’ bad reputation vs. real mentorship and social mixing

    1. DJ

      I don't know about you, but, like, skateparks, they g- they get such a bad rap.

    2. BB

      Yeah.

    3. DJ

      Like, your... Like, my parents told me not to hang out there, right? But, like, if you think about any other sport, usually it's, like, age-based.

    4. BB

      Yeah.

    5. DJ

      So you're hanging about with, like, the pop- like you're playing football, you're playing with the popular guys in school.

    6. BB

      Yeah, yeah.

    7. DJ

      But you go to a skatepark, you're hanging out with, like, 40-year-old... You're, like, 14-

    8. BB

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

    9. DJ

      ... hanging out with 40-year-old men.

    10. BB

      [laughs]

    11. DJ

      And not in a weird way, not in, like, a BBC way. Like- [laughs]

    12. BB

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um-

    13. DJ

      But, like, but the w- th- there was kind of two things for me at least. I saw a bunch of people that I really gravitated towards who were, like, father figures-

    14. BB

      Yeah

    15. DJ

      ... older brother figures who-

    16. BB

      Yeah, yeah

    17. DJ

      ... handed down a bunch of tools that I've, I mean, I've taken to today, right?

    18. BB

      Yeah.

    19. DJ

      And, uh, but there's a bunch of other kids that are hanging in the skatepark, and you're like, "Ah, I've seen how your life turns out. I, I wanna avoid that."

    20. BB

      For sure.

    21. DJ

      But not many disciplines have that, you know?

    22. BB

      Yeah. It, there's, there's, there's a huge dirt bag contingent within skateboarding, for sure. Um-

    23. DJ

      [laughs]

    24. BB

      I can see it, man. Like, you know, like I say, s- sending your kid down to the skatepark and then there being 10 dudes down there who are all absolutely fucking stoned out their minds, just, like, cau- being a bit of a rabble. Probably not the, not the best place for a kid. And, like, I'm always aware of that shit, man. Like, I've got a lot of kids in my family, and I've been around kids, and I know how easily they pick stuff up, and I know how easily influenced I was as a kid.

    25. DJ

      [laughs]

    26. BB

      Like, I vicariously picked up so many... Lots of cool stuff, like I say, punk and skating, but also some, you know, some not so cool shit. Um, but-

    27. DJ

      And the nature of skateparks are they're usually in the most deprived areas as well.

    28. BB

      Yeah.

    29. DJ

      So I grew up in a council estate, and my local skatepark was in the roughest area in my council estate. And the types of people that actually passed through there were pretty rough.

    30. BB

      Yeah.

  4. 6:05 – 7:22

    Equality, resilience, and life lessons learned on a board

    1. DJ

      And there's no like status hierarchy there.

    2. BB

      No.

    3. DJ

      Like everyone's a fucking equal.

    4. BB

      Yeah.

    5. DJ

      Like whether you've just nailed your first ollie or you've like dropped in a 12 foot vert-

    6. BB

      Yeah

    7. DJ

      ... you get the same level of response from everyone around.

    8. BB

      Yeah.

    9. DJ

      There's no like status games.

    10. BB

      Yeah, man. If you land your first pop shove it on a bank or something, you're gonna get the best skater in that park, as long as they're not a dick, going, "Hell yeah." 'Cause like even just doing that on a skateboard is hard and, and you know, skating for, for that reason as well I think is a, is a, is a good life lesson of like, this shit is gonna hurt. You are gonna suck. You are gonna fall off. Um, you are gonna wanna quit. But ultimately, keep trying, get back up, chill out, try again when your head's clear or whatever. And it does. There's a lot of, a lot of lessons you can take from it. So yeah, very thankful to have had it. It's kind of stuck with me at different points in my life, you know, in and out of it. I think I've always described myself as a bit of a jack of all trades. I feel like I've tried every extreme sport there is, like [laughs] uh, and gotten mediocre at all of them and then gone, "I'm done with this now." But that's [laughs] ADHD for you. It's like once I, once it stops stimulating me, I'm like, "Right, next thing." But skating has been pretty consistent and come in and out at different points in my life and-

  5. 7:22 – 9:53

    How Neck Deep began: brothers, home recording, and early songs taking off

    1. DJ

      T- take me back to like writing and performing music for the first time. Was it around that era of picking up skateboarding? Like, I think about 2012, 2013 Neck Deep, that's when I came across you guys, so-

    2. BB

      Yeah

    3. DJ

      ... this is like, I'm totally fanboying right now, dude.

    4. BB

      [laughs]

    5. DJ

      This is so cool.

    6. BB

      You're holding me down, man. It's all good.

    7. DJ

      Uh.

    8. BB

      [laughs]

    9. DJ

      Yeah, man, it's, it's pretty cool. But like tell me about 2012, 2013. Tell me about like picking up the guitar-

    10. BB

      Mm

    11. DJ

      ... singing for the first time, writing music. How did that all come around?

    12. BB

      Um, I was always like, I wouldn't say I'm from like a musical family, but my brothers were very musical. My mum, not musical at all. My dad was just a good, like a- he liked good music and was a, a, an avid music listener. But I was very much, it was very much given to me by both of my older brothers are probably two of my biggest role models in my life. Like Seb, who's in the band now, and I have another older brother, his name's Jamie, and he was the green haired punk that gave us all this stuff. So I grew up seeing him in bands and from punk stuff to DJing, like funk and soul and all this sort of stuff. So then around about the time that Seb was like 13, 14, I was probably like, like 10, 11, he started playing in bands. And so then I was going to the gigs to see him playing band, in bands. And then he started recording bands and i- like in the, in the attic of our house, basically, in h- in his little attic room. And so I was there sort of poking my head into these recording sessions and going and seeing if I could scrounge a ciggie, when really I kind of just wanted to be around what was happening. And, um, I think that just like, I, I, I felt like I was listening to Seb recording music and I was having ideas for the songs that he was recording, and I was going, "Cool," like, "Oh, this lyric could be cool," or whatever. And I think at that time I'd picked up an acoustic and could play four or five chords and was just, you know, doing my thing. And I did have a, a terrible little solo project that Seb was kind enough to just be like, "All right, I'll record it for free because you're my brother and, and we'll work on this together." And that was the start of it really. Um, and then, yeah, honestly, it's, it's, whether by an insane stroke of luck or whether by, I don't know, the stars aligned, whether it was always meant to be, like the first band I started was Neck Deep, and the first fucking song we ever did started to gain traction kind of immediately really. Um-

  6. 9:53 – 12:28

    ‘What Did You Expect?’: heartbreak as fuel and writing without audience pressure

    1. DJ

      Was that What Did You Expect?

    2. BB

      Yeah.

    3. DJ

      Yeah.

    4. BB

      What Did You Expect? was our first, first ever song, man. Fresh off, fresh off a breakup. Fresh off a couple, couple of like gnarly teen relationships, like quite intense, like year-long relationships as a teen that like, yeah, just, just ended in, in weird ways, and I was a sensitive kind of emotional kid, again, with like the ADHD. Like now knowing that, like my emotional response to stuff was always, was always like, yeah, I, I really felt, uh, those, you know, that strong, uh, uh, emotions of like, I don't know, not abandonment or anything like that, but just, just felt the, the heartbreak really, really hard. And so perfect way, thing to pour it into was like a bunch of whingy pop punk music that I was like, "All right, cool, I've got, I've got plenty to write about." Um, and so yeah, that all of that like flowed so easily and, um, I don't know h- how or why it sort of worked out the way it did, but it just did. I think I was just super inspired, had nothing to lose, no context of like what fans want. It was just purely, this is what we want to write.

    5. DJ

      And so you'd wanted out.

    6. BB

      What's that?

    7. DJ

      Like and so you'd wanted out almost.

    8. BB

      Yeah, 100%. 100%. It, I needed an outlet for sure. And like I was looking at uni and college and all this sort of stuff and like, yeah, it was fine. It was, it was all good, but like music was the only thing I really cared about. And to be honest, all I ever told myself, and at the time I think I was kind of into like the whole law of attraction, all that sort of stuff, and I think it, it, it did me well for a minute because all I told myself was, "Never want a desk job, and I want a job that I can see the world, that allows me to just see the world. I don't care." I, I, I... For a long time, I wanted to be a documentarian videographer. Like just put me on a, on a crew and let me hold a camera, as long as I can see the world, and that manifested in- The best possible way, which is like I'm, I'm in a band and I get to tour the world now. So yeah, I think, um, super inspired and just like completely, completely focused on like, do not have a normal life. Do not have a normal job. Like, whatever you can do to carve out a path for yourself that is gonna, you know, that allows you to live the life that you've always wanted, do it, so.

  7. 12:28 – 16:14

    Be yourself: style over difficulty (skating) and feeling over polish (music)

    1. DJ

      And the thing like skate culture, punk, pop-punk culture kind of lends itself to that.

    2. BB

      Yeah.

    3. DJ

      Uh, like there was, there is no uniformity in skateboarding or pop-punk.

    4. BB

      Yeah.

    5. DJ

      The only uniformity is, uh, div- like diversity if that makes sense.

    6. BB

      Yeah.

    7. DJ

      Like kinda like the, uh, Edinburgh Fringe on the skateboard scene. These types of fringe societies, it just like kind of attracts like a level of misfit that no other industry would.

    8. BB

      Yeah.

    9. DJ

      Whereas if you look at s- like football, and not to generalize, but like most kids... Like I grew up playing football as well.

    10. BB

      Mo- yeah, yeah

    11. DJ

      ... mo- most kids are kind of different shades of each other-

    12. BB

      Yeah

    13. DJ

      ... with like kind of tiger parents expecting the same-

    14. BB

      Yeah, yeah

    15. DJ

      ... all their kids. Whereas like skateboarding is so expressive in nature. Someone who can ride a ramp really well, but not doing tricks on it-

    16. BB

      Yeah

    17. DJ

      ... it can look just as good as someone doing like the most gnarliest of tricks. Um, but also contextually, like it's not like you went to like, is it like Brit School or something like that where all the music sort of-

    18. BB

      Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Something like that. Yeah.

    19. DJ

      You, you did this from Wrexham in North West Wales. [laughs]

    20. BB

      Yeah. Yeah. It's, I, I think the key with it all is, is be yourself. I think it is, is, is with skating, with pop-punk, with everything. Like, like you say, the best skaters, you can just- Sorry. [laughs] Sorry. Nice.

    21. DJ

      That's just so random. [laughs]

    22. BB

      Yeah, it's all good. Yeah, yeah. Um, I think it's be yourself. Like you say, you can have some dude that's just going back and forth doing rock fakies and an, uh, and axle stalls on a mini ramp, but as long as they're doing it with steez and they're relaxed and they're, they're chilling about it, like that is just as cool as somebody who's... Well, there's this whole argument now I've seen in the skate world of like this new crop of kids that are coming through that are like technical robots with skating, but not so much style. I don't even care either way. Like, they're kids and, and they're pushing the sport forward, but it's a debate in skating.

    23. DJ

      Are these like the seven-year-old Japanese people in the Olympics thing?

    24. BB

      Yeah. I think there's, there's a- Yeah. Jin Wu is like the kid that every... He's the hot topic of debate. And, um, ultimately I think knocking a 14-year-old kid, especially when the criticism is coming from like 45-year-old skaters is kind of whack really.

    25. DJ

      [laughs]

    26. BB

      Just as a whole is whack. It's like leave the kid alone, but I get it, you know. Style, style i-i-over substance, i- it... Or style over difficulty in skating is definitely the, the key. And, and I think, do think it kind of, um, kind of works that way in pop-punk too. Like, it doesn't have to be complex or it doesn't have to be this, this showy thing. Like, as long as it's real, as long as it's to the point, and as long as it feels like something. Like there's a lot of music that I listen to both, you know, of all genres, that just doesn't like feel like anything or it doesn't like mean anything. You kind of listen to it and it's just kind of like this feels a bit paint by numbers. And I mean, we may even be guilty of it at times as well, but, um, I think as long as you can just put your own individual stamp on whatever you're doing and, and it resonates with people, and that's the most important thing. I think we've always tried to be relatable, um, because, you know, that's, that's what I loved about music, is when I could see myself in someone or I felt like somebody was speaking to me or that they summarized how I felt without me even knowing how I felt. I think that was what I was always looking for in music and what I wanted to do with Neck Deep. So yeah, totally. If you... Y- like, it's hard to say like be original and be individual, but like you just take, take a few steps back and really it is just about don't, you know, don't hold yourself back. Be yourself. I think that's the most important thing. I think when you try and impress other people is when you get too caught up in your own, your own head, and you end up making stuff that just sounds like everything else, and...

  8. 16:14 – 18:01

    AI, soul, and why human-made art still matters

    1. DJ

      Es- especially in this kind of AI ladled culture. Like, I know it's like wanky self-development, but like you can escape competition by being authentic 'cause no one else can be you.

    2. BB

      Yeah, yeah.

    3. DJ

      No one, no one else can put your unique lattice of experience, insights, preferences, taste-

    4. BB

      Yeah

    5. DJ

      ... into the world. Specifically in a world where AI is just c- creating similar smells and similar versions of the same thing-

    6. BB

      Yeah

    7. DJ

      ... based on computational data.

    8. BB

      Yeah.

    9. DJ

      Uh, like no, we're here to put something else into existence that doesn't already exist. Us.

    10. BB

      For sure. Yeah. Yeah, and I, and I think, you know, with AI and stuff, like it's, it's pretty scary and whatever. You can have your predictions about what AI is gonna be here or there, what- whatever. Um, but I still think that humans will always value human art, and I think regardless they are always going to see the human value in it. Whether you put two images that are exactly the same next to each other, one's AI, one's human, um, A, I think you'd be able to kind of tell a little bit, but if you tell people this one's AI and this one's human, which one's better, they're gonna pick the human one just because it is a human that's done it, and because it's, it's got that human's spirit and soul in it. Like you, you can still... That is still the difference for me with AI, is like it hasn't got a soul and you, and you know it just inherently by looking at it that it doesn't, doesn't feel right. And so I do think people will always value that about real art. So yeah, it's, it's scary times in that, in that sense. Um, but I just think it'll mean that the real art and the, and the good artists will, will cut through that and, um, yeah, as long as, as long as big corporations don't like actively go on a thing of trying to just, you know, replace art with AI, which arguably they are, then I think we're sweet. I think people will, will always be able to differentiate between the two and, um, yeah.

  9. 18:01 – 21:10

    Effort and attention as new currencies—and the death of ‘underground’ subculture

    1. DJ

      I've noticed this in society recently, like, uh, effort has become a currency.

    2. BB

      Yeah.

    3. DJ

      So like a marathon used to be like the most insane you're- The most insane thing your mate ever did, and now every cunt's doing a marathon.

    4. BB

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    5. DJ

      Same with, uh, like Ironman and all these types of things. I think it's like this new tradable commodity. Like, if things have taken a lot of time, effort, and energy, they're worth more now because everything else is... It's maybe not AI, it's maybe like the just eat effect of everything.

    6. BB

      Mm.

    7. DJ

      You know? Like, you can get food, uh, delivered when you want it. You can have sex on your phone with Pornhub.

    8. BB

      Yeah, yeah.

    9. DJ

      Uh, AI's creating art and culture. Like, I think... Yeah, like-

    10. BB

      Real tangible efforts. Getting out there and putting in the effort and, and yeah, it is worth something now. And sometimes I don't know whether that's like... I think people do do it for a lot of, for a lot of their own reasons, but then, like, it becomes... Because it becomes currency, then people want that currency. They want that value, and so then everyone starts doing it, and it kind of... Not saying that everyone shouldn't be trying to improve themselves, but then it, it means the culture has to move and find the next thing. And, and, and that's what kind of bums me out about stuff, about, about current culture is everything is, everything is pervasive. Every trend works its way into everyone knows about every trend all the time. Like, there's no... Not there's no subculture anymore, but subculture's kind of died because you can't have a culture that really exists in an underground and flourishes naturally. Like, I think the only thing that's really currently doing that, there's some, like, underground electronic music. Like, there's a bit, a big industrial electronic music scene that i- I think is cool and is born from a cool place, and, and the other thing is hardcore music. They're the only things that I think... And even that now is kind of becoming a, a, a thing where everyone wants to like hardcore because that's the thing. And I'm not saying that, like, trend hopping is a bad thing, but it's just how pervasive everything is. It's, it's just how, like, you can't just go for a run and say, "I went for a run." You've gotta Doco it. You've gotta go to a run club. You've gotta get all the gear. You've gotta do all this. You've gotta tell everybody that you're having a run, and then it becomes every, "Well, I've got to run," and, "I've gotta do this." Where it's like, I don't know, it doesn't... Not everything... It sometimes feels like a lot of this stuff is for show. While effort is a currency, is the value of that currency just attention and trying to fit in? I think there's value sometimes in being like, "No, I'm gonna do things differently. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna put in the effort, but for my own ends," rather than just it being like, "I'm doing the thing too." Um, I don't know if that's the punk in me just being like, "Eh, fuck everything that's popular. Eh, I hate it." But like, yeah, I feel like sometimes these things are perva- pervasive.

    11. DJ

      Mm.

    12. BB

      Like, why, why are you doing this? Are you actually doing this for you? Are you doing it to show that, "I'm, I'm not getting left behind. I'm not getting left behind." It's like you don't need to fucking be up on everything. Just like what you like, do what you do, and it will be just... And, and again, I think shit becomes less fulfilling when you're doing it to just be like, "I went to a run club," or, "Fucking I did this or that." It's like, I don't know. Who are you, who are you doing this for? You know what I mean? It's kind of weird.

  10. 21:10 – 26:41

    Social media, validation, and choosing a quieter definition of a good life

    1. DJ

      And we're wrapping another self-development quote, but it's, uh, "The ego is unavailable to receive love, only praise."

    2. BB

      Yeah.

    3. DJ

      And I really like that, man. Like, when you're wearing a facade to work or on social media or to integrate into society, when someone says, "I really like how you're dressed," you don't feel that.

    4. BB

      No.

    5. DJ

      Like, it's the ego that feels that. But e- equally, like if, if, if you've stepped out of line, but you're in character-

    6. BB

      Yeah, yeah

    7. DJ

      ... or you're following a trend or you're not being completely authentic and someone pulls you up about some shit that you did-

    8. BB

      Mm-hmm

    9. DJ

      ... if you badmouthed someone or if you acted unethically or you maybe disrespected someone-

    10. BB

      Mm-hmm

    11. DJ

      ... you then don't have to change because you're like, "Well, that wasn't me anyway." You know?

    12. BB

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    13. DJ

      So like it's a, it's a damner for growth as a human as well because you're always just trying to fit in the shell of-

    14. BB

      Of something, yeah

    15. DJ

      ... of something.

    16. BB

      I think e- yeah, I think everybody just wants validation. Ultimately, I think everybody just wants to be seen and, like, yeah, I get that, for sure. Like, you want credit for doing the thing that you've done. Um, but that again, I think that's an ego thing. I think it is like, "See me, value me. I, I, I need that for, I need that for a sense of self." Um, and I think we do look at other people for validation too much. Like, I think through social media, like, I'm currently in a, in a thing of just, like, really trying to not pay too much attention to it, just 'cause I find it's just quite a grim place. I find myself feeling worse after being on social media a lot of the time. Um-

    17. DJ

      Have you heard of the term post-content clarity?

    18. BB

      No.

    19. DJ

      It's like a play on words for post-nut clarity.

    20. BB

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs]

    21. DJ

      Like, how do you, how do you feel after-

    22. BB

      Yeah

    23. DJ

      ... you consume something?

    24. BB

      Yeah. Yeah, ultimately, and I think I've been having a lot of that because, like-

    25. DJ

      What one? [laughs]

    26. BB

      Both. [laughs] Um, um, but yeah, I think, I think once I kinda got a bit of social media... Ah, it's not even cl- I don't think I have any clout. I've got f- followers, whatever that means. But it almost felt like a bit of a game, and once it stopped being like, "Ooh, I've got to get followers and likes," it was just like this shit's fucking meaningless. Like, it really doesn't, it doesn't mean anything. Um, I think the validation that people really should seek is validation f- from themselves. A, from themselves, which is really hard to do, giving yourself credit for shit, but also just as long as your friends and family... Like, 20 years ago, we didn't need the world to give us validation for going for a run. Like, you would probably just get home, and your mom or dad or your partner or someone would go like, "Oh, did you go for a run? Nice one. Well done. Congratulations."

    27. DJ

      [laughs]

    28. BB

      And that's all the validation in the world that you would ever need. But now it's like, while you say effort is a currency, I also think attention is the currency now as well.

    29. DJ

      Mm.

    30. BB

      I think as long as you can hold people's attention and as long as you can garner attention, that is what makes you valuable. Um-

  11. 26:41 – 36:28

    Fame pitfalls: money makes people weird, staying grounded, and avoiding the ‘horny rockstar’ trap

    1. BB

      Man, I honestly think it is as well, though. Like, I've, I've seen so much of, like, these things that people want and chase and, like, I've met a lot of these people that, you know, people think, uh, uh, uh... That people have this idea of through social media or whatever, and like a lot of the time, man, these people are either just straight up dickheads, not all of them, or, or they're just fucking weird. They're just tapped. They've just been so affected by fame and the attention and the, and the money. And, and I'm maybe in a privileged position where, like, in the last few years I've not had to w- I've, I- I've got financial freedom. By no means a millionaire, which people in my DMs think I am. We're-

    2. DJ

      Capitalist here. [laughs]

    3. BB

      If anyone's got it, yeah, fucking give it me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wanna fucking... Yeah, I wanna, I wanna be able to live my life. But, um, I've got some, some, you know, I've got the financial freedom. Some would probably call me a bit of a champagne socialist really for that shit. Um, but one of the earliest things I learnt through Neck Deep, uh, uh, an old manager who's a good friend told me, and it's stuck with me forever, and it's, "Nothing will make people act weirder than money."

    4. DJ

      Oh.

    5. BB

      Like, you can have the most level-headed person in the world. As soon as money becomes an issue, they will completely switch on you.

    6. DJ

      Have you been to a daddy party? Is that what you're telling me? [laughs]

    7. BB

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was, that was what it was, man, yeah. As soon as, uh, as soon as you got baby oil money-

    8. DJ

      [laughs]

    9. BB

      ... it's, uh, it's all downhill from there.

    10. DJ

      Johnson & Johnson money. [laughs]

    11. BB

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. As soon as you got that Johnson & Johnson money. Um, but it is, exactly. Look at that shit. I, like-

    12. DJ

      Are there any moments in your own story through fame and fortune where you have, like, burnt your fingers a little bit and you went, "Oh, let, let's not go there as a band. Let's not go there as an individual." Like, I almost got... Did you ever get almost-

    13. BB

      Yeah

    14. DJ

      ... get vacuumed into it?

    15. BB

      I think a little bit, yeah. Um-

    16. DJ

      Because I can't imagine what it's like to go, like, you... I mean, you guys blew up when you were, like, 16, 17-ish.

    17. BB

      17 started the band. I think started touring in, like, about 18, just before I turned 18, yeah.

    18. DJ

      So if I think about my 18-year-old self, man, from a skateboarding community, quite insecure. Um, I want... Like, the reason I skated was 'cause I wanted attention, I wanted to do stunts and tricks-

    19. BB

      Yeah, yeah

    20. DJ

      ... and for people to go, "That's cool." I can't imagine what that does to the mind of quite an alternative young person as well. Like, when you have, like, thousands of girls screaming your name, loads of lads, like, thinking you're fucking-

    21. BB

      Wanna be you.

    22. DJ

      Wanna be you.

    23. BB

      Yeah, yeah.

    24. DJ

      Yeah, yeah.

    25. BB

      Yeah. Um, I do think that's another side of it that I've managed to really avoid as well. Like, shout out to my wife. We've been together since right at the start of the band and, like, you know, I think she really has kept me on the straight and narrow in the b- in the best way, and I always knew that getting with her. And, like, and as our relationship grew, it was like, I've got someone here who, regardless of whether I was in a band, if I was flipping burgers at McDonald's, she'd still love me. And so I think, like, that has been a super crucial part of just keeping me grounded, keeping me level and, like, I still live, like, close to home. I'm still close to family. Like, I really haven't moved too far away from my roots. And, but that shit fucks people up, man. Like, absolutely you see that shit fucking people up. Like, horny-

    26. DJ

      Any examples?

    27. BB

      ... horny fucking dudes, man. I mean, plenty of fucking examples of horny fucking dudes messaging girls and just fucking around, and just, like, it's a fucking, it's a fucking distraction, man. Like, it is. And it... And I think I never, ever, ever got into music for girls. I think that is the dumbest thing you can get into fucking music to. If you wanna, if you wanna fuck girls, make an OnlyFans. Get a fucking... Be a porn star. Whatever it is. I don't fucking know. But hor-

    28. DJ

      Landing the podcast, you'll learn. [laughs]

    29. BB

      Horny d- horny dudes getting into music and being horny fucking perverts has, honestly, it's really tarnished the relation of, uh, of the i- image of pop punk in general as well, and it is horny fucking stupid dudes. And it, and, like- Dude, just pack it in. Stop thinking with your cock. Focus on the fucking music, focus on your friends, and just look for some fucking stability in your... But then again, who am I to fucking say it? Everyone's on their own path. You wanna fuck a load of girls, you wanna blow your life up, cool. Do it.

    30. DJ

      Yeah.

  12. 36:28 – 39:00

    The real cost of touring: sacrifice, grief, and fear of missing family life

    1. DJ

      I guess I can imagine, though, like, like at your level, do, like- Going from Japan to Brazil to then, like, you could lose track of, like, how remarkable each day is. You know, like-

    2. BB

      Yeah

    3. DJ

      ... one day in your life today, or right now, could be, like, 15-year-old's, like, Ben's, like, like, Make A Wish almost, you know? [laughs]

    4. BB

      Dude, I mean, yeah, this. Man, I- if you would've told me at 15, like, oh, you... Like, let's, you know, if, if a bunch of my skater mates were like, "Hey, let's go on a road trip up to Glasgow and go skate the loading bay," I'd be like, "Yeah, that sounds like the sickest thing in the world." But yeah, sometimes it can get lost on you, for sure. And like, you know, I'm not saying I'm, like, forever in this state of, like, consciousness, like, grati- graciousness at all times.

    5. DJ

      [laughs]

    6. BB

      Sometimes it fucking sucks, man. Sometimes you'll catch me in a fucking terrible mood in the air- Like, I'm, I'm a cranky boy in the airport, and I'm a terrible sleeper too. So if I've had, like, two hours sleep and we're in a fucking airport, yeah, I'm gonna be like, "Fuck this. Get me home. I hate this shit. I'm depressed. I don't want to fucking be here." Um, but you know, you push through. You, you do. And, and it comes with its downsides, you know. I've missed a lot of life from being on tour. Um, you know, lost, lost friends. My dad died while I was on tour, and like, you know, missing big events, missing the birth of, of, of, of kids, you know, friends' kids, or my own nephew. You know, I wasn't there when he was born and stuff. So it does come with, like, a sacrifice. And while, you know, it's... I, I never wanna be like, "Oh, woe is me," that shit can play a, play on your mind, especially when things aren't going well, you know. Um, when you're in an airport and maybe you're on your way to play, like, a bullshit... Like, we've done it before. We've played, we've flown out to play a show, gone through all this effort, the show's sucked, and I'm sat in the airport at 4:00 in the morning. You know, I could've been at home and, and when this is happening or this, and like, yeah, it can, it can be a bummer, man. And like, thinking about the future as well, like, man, having kids and stuff, like, my biggest fear is, like, I don't wanna be this absent dad that's, like, never around and can't be there for his kids because I'm on tour and all this sort of stuff. So it's taking the rough with the smooth. But I got good, good support, and honestly, half the time that's me just getting in my head about it. Most people are like, "Chill the fuck out. You're in... You've got a good life. Have a kid whenever the fuck you want. You can do whatever you want."

    7. DJ

      Mm.

    8. BB

      But I'm constantly piling this pressure on. Um-

  13. 39:00 – 43:31

    Arrested development, ADHD, and ‘normal conversations’ when you’re famous

    1. DJ

      Is it difficult when you see people in, like, the same industry at different extremes? Like, I think about, um, Liam Payne, right?

    2. BB

      Mm.

    3. DJ

      Or like, the One Direction lot, or even Justin Bieber or Britney or the- these types of people whereby they are so mollycoddled through their team and security through their most formative years of their life that they never really grow up, at least normally. And given that you guys, I mean, the, the, the disproportionate levels of fame that they had, uh, uh, to you guys, I can imagine your lives were very different. But given the, the inflection in your career and fame was at that most pinnacle moment between, like, childhood and, and teenage-

    4. BB

      Yeah, yeah

    5. DJ

      ... uh, and, and young adulthood-

    6. BB

      Yeah, a super crucial point, yeah

    7. DJ

      ... have you noticed any things that have been very pertinent in your own kind of development?

    8. BB

      I think there's been some arrested development in, in, in-

    9. DJ

      Arrested development, yeah

    10. BB

      ... in, in some, in some respects, yeah, for sure. Like, I am so fucking bad at, like, whether this is just my brain anyway, but, like, I'm really, really bad with, like, taxes and shit like that. And I am so lucky that, like, the band has always had an... I've, I've had people to look after the fine details and the logistics of my life since I've been 18, and that has given me arrested development in those senses, for sure. Like, I really struggle with, like, everyday admin and, like, taxes. Even just replying to, like, small things with the band I get so overwhelmed with because I've always had, like, someone else in the band who is good at that area or whatever it may be. So, um, I think a lo- I think maybe that's, you know, the case with some of the people that you mentioned, is like they get put on this pedestal so young. And, like, I have kind of had a, a case of that too, especially being the singer, and I've, I've always kind of fought back against that. And even with the band and stuff too, like, we've always done majority rules. It's total democracy. Very, very, very rarely does any one person ever throw their weight around and, and, and, you know, get what they want, unless it is, you know, a hill worth dying on, basically. Um, but yeah, I think there's been some arrested development in, in some of the more, like, adulting elements of my life, which I do really struggle with, and it does kind of fuck me up. Like, I got diagnosed with ADHD last year, and I've not wanted to be like Mr. Fucking, You Know, Look At Me about it.

    11. DJ

      [laughs]

    12. BB

      Um, but it does. That sort of shit is really fucking hard for me to deal with, and because I never had to do uni, I never had to, like, do all this hard shit.

    13. DJ

      Yeah.

    14. BB

      So, but you times that by 10 with a Bieber or something like that, like man, fuck. I do not envy anyone, uh, with that level of fame at all. And the aim of Neck Deep was never to be famous. It, it makes me feel... It can make me feel a bit uncomfortable when fame is kind of, like, a factor in an interaction with someone. It's, it kind of throws me off. Like, I, I would much rather meet somebody and hang out with somebody who, who, like, doesn't know who I am really. You know, if, if I go and get my hair cut or like... Oh, well, no, my barber now is chill. But like, if I'm in an Uber, for example, and they're like, "Oh, what you doing here?" I'm like, "School trip."

    15. DJ

      [laughs]

    16. BB

      Or like, if they kind of deduce it from, like, the tour bus and stuff, I'm like, "Oh, I'm crew. I, I, I'm a guitar tech." Because I can, I can, I can lie. I can, I can make a believable lie out of that. And I've actually been caught out so bad on this shit once. So there was a coffee shop down the road from where my wife used to tattoo at, and, uh, I was going in this coffee shop, like quite a lot, and I got to know the guy, and he assumed I was a tattooer. And so I just went along with it, and like he would be like, "Oh, what tattoos are you doing today?" And I would just tell him, like, what tattoo my wife was doing.

    17. DJ

      [laughs]

    18. BB

      Be like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." But then eventually it got to this point where like, [sighs] "God, I can't keep up this fucking lie anymore." And, uh, I had to... I just had to get out of this lie-

    19. DJ

      [laughs]

    20. BB

      ... because I just couldn't be like-

    21. DJ

      [laughs]

    22. BB

      ... "I'm actually in a band, and you're gonna go and check us out, and you're gonna listen to it, and then you're gonna talk to me about the band." Like I, you know, I kinda just wanna have normal conversations with people and, and-

    23. DJ

      That's where you say, like, you're the local MP for Reform or something [laughs] so I stop trying.

    24. BB

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    25. DJ

      [laughs]

    26. BB

      No. Everyone will fucking hate me then.

    27. DJ

      [laughs]

    28. BB

      Falling with the wrong crowd there. Yeah. Fucking hell.

    29. DJ

      That's hilarious, man.

    30. BB

      Um, so yeah.

  14. 43:31 – 48:42

    Frontman responsibilities: band messaging, onstage connecting, and not alienating fans

    1. DJ

      What, what else do we need to know about being the frontman of a band? Like, when I watch you live, you're not only lead singer and vocalist, you're also like a compere, a comedy gig almost, or like an MC or like a comedian.

    2. BB

      Yeah.

    3. DJ

      'Cause you have to, like, bridge between songs, make people laugh-

    4. BB

      Yeah, yeah

    5. DJ

      ... build a sense of community. What do people not see about the process of being a frontman?

    6. BB

      Um, yeah, I think that sort of stuff. Like, thinking about the message that you're putting out. Um, and like, I think my role in the band that, you know, as I've said, I'm, I'm pretty useless with admin, logistics, that sort of stuff, but I'm always thinking of, like, what's, what's the idea? What's the big goal? What's the, what's the theme? What's the message? That's, that's all I think about, and I think, yeah, maybe people don't see that as often, and it does even come down to, like, what I say in between songs and shit like that, and like statements that we make about the band that we are. You know, a lot of that I think comes from me, um, and kinda always has, and that can be a lot of pressure, you know? Like, I've gotta define the band's message, and not necessarily direction, but like, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm kinda doing that. And get that wrong or... 'Cause I, I don't wanna alienate people either or isolate people. I do think that our band should be for everyone, like regardless of who you are, what you believe, or anything like that. Um, and so trying to find that balance of, like, how do I reach these kids is-

    7. DJ

      [laughs]

    8. BB

      ... is the... That's the... That's, that, that can be tough. Um, but also yeah, just like juggling, juggling real life and band life has been really tough, man. Like it, it's always been really, really hard. Um, being these two kinda separate people with different responsibilities and different goals, trying to balance that has always been tough. And, and it's really hard to explain, I think, unless-

    9. DJ

      This is like a champagne problem a little bit, isn't it?

    10. BB

      Yeah, it is. It is. It's, it's good problems and, you know, it... I always say, like, "I'm not complaining, just explaining," is, is kinda how I... how it comes... 'Cause I never wanna complain about the position that I'm in, but like, you know, it's, it's not all, it's not all fucking gigs and after parties and, and, and, you know-

    11. DJ

      Private jets and shit

    12. BB

      ... private... No, man. It's fucking economy most of the time, dude. You'll fucking catch us flying economy all the time. If we're in business, it's because we've, like, built up a load of points and got, like, a cheap business, and we're like, "Yeah, let's sort of do this."

    13. DJ

      Yeah.

    14. BB

      Yeah, like-

    15. DJ

      And really nice to the hostess, and said please and thank you on the gate.

    16. BB

      Yeah, dude. Yeah, absolutely. But then again, that's why I say rich people being fucking weird, man. Jesus. Like, the people you see flying business, fuck, I feel like slapping some of them, man. Like, how rude and entitled can you be where you just, like, don't even acknowledge people or like... Yeah, just, just odd, man. Odd.

    17. DJ

      And, and I guess when you have ridden the coattails of providing solace to typically people who are quite emo in nature-

    18. BB

      Mm-hmm

    19. DJ

      ... it's actually part of i- sh- I'm presuming it's part of your DNA to never get out of touch because you're always rooting for the average person.

    20. BB

      Yeah.

    21. DJ

      Because you see yourself as the average person.

    22. BB

      Yeah, I mean, I think where I'm from massively i- has determined a lot of that. Like, if you start getting too big for your boots in Wrexham, like, someone's gonna knock you down a peg pretty quick. Um, and just, like, because I grew up in a place that was, was constantly reminded, like, "This is a shit hole, and you'll never do anything here, and everywhere else is so much better than where you're from," it gives you this... It does kinda ground you as to, like, well, look, I grew up in this place that had nothing and that didn't have much going for it. And so... And I was, and I was happy then, and, and I enjoyed that then. So anything from here is just a bonus, and don't lose sight of the person that you were when you just got started with this shit. Because ultimately, that's what people fell in love with, and, and that's who you really are, I think. You know, we all change and develop and we grow, but, like, if you lose sight of your core values and, um, yeah, you start, you start selling them off for, for money or, or fame or whatever, like, I just think that's fast track to just, like, losing everything important in your life and losing the things that really matter in your life. And who's to say what that is? You define that for yourself. But mine has always been family, friends, and just, like, uh, not holistic, like cathartic and holistic experiences that are rooted in the real world and not by an impression of you or what people think of you from social media or your music or whatever. It's just been be true to yourself.

    23. DJ

      It's, it's simple.

    24. BB

      Simple. Simple shit, really, but-

  15. 48:42 – 55:01

    Neck Deep’s hopeful lyrics: fan impact, Warped Tour intensity, and ‘Life’s Not Out To Get You’ as a lifeline

    1. DJ

      Ben, one of the things I love about Neck Deep and the lyrics that you write, specifically in a genre that- ... encapsulates a lot of people th- that struggle. Like, and I, I was one of those kind of lost, lonely, working class young men-

    2. BB

      Yeah

    3. DJ

      ... who was unseen, unheard, going through some tough shit.

    4. BB

      Yeah.

    5. DJ

      Was the... In, in a genre where that is the norm or is q- quite the average of the type of person that consumes that type of music-

    6. BB

      Yeah

    7. DJ

      ... maybe I'm just generalizing, but from the people that I know that also like Neck Deep, it's kind of consistent-

    8. BB

      Yeah

    9. DJ

      ... is that usually lyrics are quite grave and quite depressing in nature. But what Neck Deep has done has provided... I mean, there is a lot of kind of dark and deep stuff-

    10. BB

      Yeah, yeah

    11. DJ

      ... but also there's such a plethora of hopeful messages that you could imagine in a self-development book or on-

    12. BB

      Yeah, yeah

    13. DJ

      ... like fucking Ch- our mate Chris Williamson's podcast or whatever.

    14. BB

      Yeah, yeah.

    15. DJ

      Like, life's not out to get you, smooth seas don't make good sailors.

    16. BB

      Yeah.

    17. DJ

      All these things were things that despite being an emo, emotive kid, quite a goth, there was hope, and it was delivered through a voice and a message and a medium that was resonant.

    18. BB

      Mm-hmm.

    19. DJ

      And I... It's one of the reasons I love comedy as well. Like, there were some times I was so blind to some political issues or sociological issues that were going on, but then it was delivered through a voice of a well-respected comedian that I liked, and I was like, "Oh, that sh- that sweetens the pill-"

    20. BB

      Yeah, yeah, yeah

    21. DJ

      ... some of these messages. And I think your music was essentially like a self-development manual for me-

    22. BB

      Yeah

    23. DJ

      ... uh, to deal with grief, to deal with heartbreak, to deal with growing up, to deal with seeing my parents in different ways. And I just kind of want to end this podcast in, in saying that, like, thank you for that, man.

    24. BB

      Yeah.

    25. DJ

      Thank... And, and, and not just on behalf of me, but on behalf of the whole community that support Neck Deep. And, uh, when it, when... You know, it's quite a, a weird experience as a, as a fan. Like, like I said, I kind of grew up 2012, 2013, uh, listening to A Part of Me, watching that YouTube era, and no- no one around me actually knowing Neck Deep actually because it was, like, on the fringe of society.

    26. BB

      Yeah, yeah.

    27. DJ

      And then going to a gig of yours and then just seeing, like, thousands of people just like me.

    28. BB

      Yeah.

    29. DJ

      And I'm like, "Oh, these guys." It's... They weren't just speaking to me.

    30. BB

      Yeah.

  16. 55:01 – 59:35

    Skate ‘cool’ vs. skill, risk, and the comedy-skateboarding parallel

    1. BB

      With skating, there is a huge element of being cool.

    2. DJ

      [laughs]

    3. BB

      Like, that is just how it fucking goes. Like, there's no two ways about it. Everybody's favorite skaters are generally the coolest skaters, like not even necessarily the best skaters, like, like, like Luan Oliveira, for i- Luan Oliveira-

    4. DJ

      Oh, yeah

    5. BB

      ... for example. Amazing technical ability, like the nicest, most technically perfect flip tricks you can imagine.

    6. DJ

      Manufactured almost.

    7. BB

      Exactly. Whereas somebody like, um, like a Dylan Rieder or like a Ben Cadé or something-

    8. DJ

      Or like, or like a Jos Hermo- uh, Hermange, is that his name?

    9. BB

      Yeah, yeah-

    10. DJ

      Jos Hermange

    11. BB

      ... yeah, yeah. Like Jos isn't like, again, he's not like the coolest skater, so, but-

    12. DJ

      There's also-

    13. BB

      I mean, what Jos does is like so Jos though. Like it's only him that does it, but that's what makes him cool, it's unique.

    14. DJ

      Yeah.

    15. BB

      Um, but-

    16. DJ

      Is that Alan Anderson, that guy does the-

    17. BB

      A-

    18. DJ

      ... does the thing-

    19. BB

      Andy Anderson

    20. DJ

      Andy Anderson [laughs]

    21. BB

      Andy. Man, honestly, he gets so much shit for not being cool, and like, yeah, in a way I get it, like okay-

    22. DJ

      Mm-hmm

    23. BB

      ... the hat, the, the, the, the hat helmet thing-

    24. DJ

      [laughs] Oh, yeah

    25. BB

      ... can be a little goofy, and like-

    26. DJ

      [laughs]

    27. BB

      Bro. [laughs]

    28. DJ

      That's cooler than anything we just said. [laughs]

    29. BB

      Exactly. Exactly.

    30. DJ

      Oh, that guy's sick.

  17. 59:35 – 1:08:40

    Nuance, culture wars, and modern politics: unity over purity tests

    1. DJ

      He is deeply different than what you would expect of him.

    2. BB

      Mm.

    3. DJ

      So online he's this kind of like deeply dark, insensitive, quite arrogant, quite confrontational dude. In real life he's really sincere, really sympathetic, empathetic, very wise.

    4. BB

      Yeah.

    5. DJ

      And, uh, a lot of what people don't see, I heard a few stories from the comedy scene where he really looked after really unwell, really sick comedians-

    6. BB

      Nice

    7. DJ

      ... both financially and emotionally, like on the phone every night.

    8. BB

      Good.

    9. DJ

      Uh, and like beyond some of the controversial stuff around tax or maybe-

    10. BB

      Yeah, yeah

    11. DJ

      ... doing the Riyadh Comedy Festival, like fundamentally he's a good human.

    12. BB

      Yeah.

    13. DJ

      And the, the world doesn't... Like I didn't, I'm not sure, but I wanted it to see that. I didn't want to believe that, and then after like meeting him a couple of times like both on and off camera, man, actual stellar dude.

    14. BB

      Cool.

    15. DJ

      Surprisingly.

    16. BB

      Yeah, I saw a couple clips of him recently and like all talking about like politics and, uh, and tax and all this, and like the solutions he offers up aren't that of a politician. And so maybe there's like, you know, there's criticism there. But like when he does give a political take I don't feel like he's, he's too ideological in what he's saying. I think he generally is like, okay, he's a rich and privileged guy, so there's gonna be an element of him looking out for his interests and looking out for his mates and stuff. But I don't think he does it in a way that's like insidious and he covers it up. He's sort of quite straightforward about his views on things, and still is a lot more, um, charitable and, and sort of conscious of, of those, the less fortunate than he probably gives off initially.

    17. DJ

      Mm.

    18. BB

      Like you know what I mean? He- I think he's just nuanced. I think it's a, he's a nuanced guy, and like the things that he's saying, while they're not for everyone, he says them I think relatively fairly. And I think that's probably a big part of like politics and society right now is everybody wanting to be fucking right, and everybody wanting to... And giving other people absolutely no fucking ground whatsoever. Like, I'm a staunch lefty guy. Like, you know.

    19. DJ

      Leftie boys.

    20. BB

      I'm very, yeah, very socialist, but like at the same time I don't think that we're gonna win over the disillusioned people on the right who are pissed off at the wrong... You know, are pissed off at immigrants, pissed off at fucking trans people. Um, we're not gonna win them over by being like, "Rah, you're the fucking pa-..." There needs to be a com- There needs to be a nuanced sort of common goal, and people's focus needs to be taken away.

    21. DJ

      And conversation, not debate all the time-

    22. BB

      Yeah

    23. DJ

      ... as well.

    24. BB

      Yeah. And, and not expecting people to be perfect as well is, is, is I think was the problem with the left. Um, was, it was, it was, it was... Not to use a, a thing, but it's, it's, it's a bit like purity politics. Like, yes, we can... Absolutely human rights for everybody, women's rights, trans rights, that is, that is a basic. And you know, I think as soon as people start denying that, then there's a bit of an issue. But when you started, I think if you go back six, seven, eight, nine, 10 years, um, it's like the left started with words. Like, "We have to start policing people's words." And then people who are just like moderate or in the middle, it's like going, "Hang on. Stop, stop telling me what words I kind of can't use." And that overshadows the much more integral parts of the left-wing message, which is rights and equality and access to out- healthcare, education, housing for everyone.

    25. DJ

      Social services.

    26. BB

      That's the, that's the key part of it. But instead it got blown up. Like in the culture war I think was a kind of a, a media manufactured thing and a politics manufactured thing, but like the left really played into it. And I think only now is the left kinda going, "Shit, did we play that hand a bit too fucking early? Should we have started with the fucking social mobility message first?" I don't know. But then it's been a, it's been a long battle, but I'm on the side of unity and reminding people whose side that they should be on, and that, you know, forgiveness and, and, uh, and understanding and nuance I think is something that is so fucking lost on people. Um-

    27. DJ

      It's, it's also strange seeing some of my friends who have become socially mobile-

    28. BB

      Mm-hmm

    29. DJ

      ... from very similar backgrounds to myself-

    30. BB

      Mm-hmm

Episode duration: 1:08:40

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