Oliver Burkeman: How to Live a Meaningfully Productive Life

1. 0:00 – 2:31

   Productivity “puberty”: shifting from hustle tactics to mature productivity

   1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr0:00

      I'm here in the beautiful Assembly Rooms with the amazing Oliver Burkeman ahead of his show here tonight, recording a podcast on what it means to live a meaningful and productive life. Trust me, you'll unlearn everything that you have learned about mon- modern productivity through the guise of this expert. Uh, I'm a huge fan of him and his book, and it's been an absolute delight to interview him today. Oliver Burkeman, welcome to Origin Story, here live in the Assembly Rooms in Edinburgh, where your show is tonight. Thanks for coming through.

   2. OBOliver Burkeman0:27

      Thank you very much for having me on.

   3. DJDavid McIntosh Jr0:29

      I've been reading, uh, your most recent piece of work, Meditations for Mort- Mortals, and I've described it to my friends [laughs] as, like, I've went through this productivity puberty almost. [laughs]

   4. OBOliver Burkeman0:41

      [laughs] All right.

   5. DJDavid McIntosh Jr0:42

      And, and what I mean by that is that, um, I went through some changes. There were symptoms. There was a, a kind of arduous process of weeks-

   6. OBOliver Burkeman0:52

      Mm-hmm

   7. DJDavid McIntosh Jr0:52

      ... uh, reading your book, where I've came up ... c- came, came out of that grown up, um, and have seen productivity through a mature lens. Uh-

   8. OBOliver Burkeman1:01

      Oh, that's a lovely way to put it

   9. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:02

      ... [laughs] uh, it's such a funny way to describe it, but, uh, f- I went from boy to man almost reading that book.

   10. OBOliver Burkeman1:08

       I'm, I'm glad to hear it. Yeah, no-

   11. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:11

       [laughs]

   12. OBOliver Burkeman1:11

       ... I mean, and I'm glad, I'm s- specifically glad if you felt like the experience of reading it affected the change in some way, 'cause that was what I really wanted to do. I didn't want to, I didn't want to do one of these books where it's like, "Here are the 20 things to put my system into practice," and then you never get around to putting it into practice, right? 'Cause you're too busy or whatever. I, it's, it's like, can you actually go through some of that change by, by reading the book.

   13. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:33

       A- and one of the kind of things that are unearthed in me was the understanding that us type A productive people are actually the most out of control, insecure type of people, and that was a really difficult pill to swallow. Uh, but your writing helped sweeten the pill, for the lack of a better term. It really did.

   14. OBOliver Burkeman1:52

       Thanks. Yeah, no, I mean, I think it's ... It ... I have been told in the past that this ... People use the word confronting to describe the stuff I write, and I've, I'd never really come across that use of the word until people started saying they found my books confronting. But I think that, yeah, there is something, isn't there, about, like, the discomfort of facing certain truths about, both about, like, reality and the world, and then about, like, yeah, the personalities of those of us who are into this stuff. Uh, that is kind of unpleasant, but it, it's the good kind of unpleasant in the long run, right? It's like y- you end up more resilient or calm or something as a result of having gone through that.

2. 2:31 – 3:24

   What Burkeman writes about: human limitation as a path to fulfillment

   1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr2:31

      When people ask you what do you do and what do you write about, how do you bring that to life?

   2. OBOliver Burkeman2:37

      Oh, I mean, I say I'm a, a writer and a, a author and a journalist usually, 'cause the journalism side of this is still really important to me, um, even though I'm not, like, working on a daily newspaper, uh, anymore. Um, and what I write about? I don't know. Productivity, philosophy, uh, mortality. I don't know. Then I sort of go- get on with a long list of things. I think, I guess what it is is human limitation, right? The ways in which we're limited as humans, the sort of non-negotiable ways in which we're finite, and how kind of stepping into that instead of trying to avoid feeling the truth of it is actually a real portal to, you know, doing more, feeling better, living a more fulfilling life. It's not something to be sort of, to sort of run away from in, in horror.

3. 3:24 – 5:19

   Origin story: Guardian deadlines and the myth of “I’ll finally catch up soon”

   1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr3:24

      Is that interlaced or intersected with your own life? You, you were a, a journalist with The Guardian. Was there a, a moment in your own origin story that you were confronted with the truths that you've gone on to write about?

   2. OBOliver Burkeman3:37

      I mean, there were mo- there were many moments, and I sort of write about this a little bit in this, in the introduction to this book. Looking back now, uh, me in my sort of mid-20s working at The Guardian, in this context where I was like, I, I was at the place I sort of dreamed of working at one day in my life but quite early on in my, um, career, in this very sort of deadline-driven environment. It's even more high-pressure in certain ways now because the internet was only really getting started. But, but this idea, like, you're, you're constantly working towards, uh, you know, a deadline at the end of the day, and then maybe you get a day or two's more relaxable, and there's another one and another one. And for anyone who wants to try to, like, feel in control of their working lives, which is part, a big part of what's going on, I think, with that kind of, um, productivity obsession, it's really useful, but it's also really terrible, right? Because you're kind of ... I was constantly telling myself, right, "Okay, right now I'm behind, and I should be going faster, and I should be more productive and more organized. But just as soon as I've got this deadline out of the way, then I'll, like, take a breath, and I'll, like, sort things out, and I'll start eating better and spending more time with my friends and not just, like, existing on pizza and Coke and trying to get through to the next deadline." But then, of course, the next de- there's always another deadline and another deadline. So you end up kind of living in this state of mind that says, like, soon, in the future, I'm gonna finally, like, be in ... figure out how to do this and be in charge of it. But I'm never quite there. And I think that yearning to feel like you know what the heck you're doing and that you're in control of it is, yeah, is what powers a lot of, um, interest in productivity systems, apps, gurus, all the rest of it.

4. 5:19 – 6:38

   The efficiency trap: why getting faster often makes you busier

   1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr5:19

      Does busyness create busier?

   2. OBOliver Burkeman5:25

      Yeah. I mean, in general, right? Like, being very overwhelmed with stuff prompts you to try to deal with it in ways that leave you feeling more overwhelmed. The example I give in the b- previous book I wrote, Four Thousand Weeks, is, like, email is a classic example of this that most people can relate to. If you, if you have a sort of completely overloaded inbox and you say to yourself like, "Okay, we gotta get on top of this now. This, this has gone on long enough. I've got to sort of, um, handle this." And then you start answering email at a much more rapid pace than you did before, staying on top of it. You just get more email, right? 'Cause you reply to more people quickly, and they reply to you, and you get a reputation for being responsive on email, so more people email you in your organization or whatever. And so there's this pattern that repeats. I called it the efficiency trap in Four Thousand Weeks, right? This pattern that repeats through all sorts of domains where if all you do is try to make any system more efficient, including, like, yourself because you're feeling like you've got too much you wanna do, the m- the, the main result, all else being equal, is that, like, more and more inputs will be attracted into that system, so you won't end up any, uh, less busy or stressed than before.

5. 6:38 – 9:35

   Productivity dysmorphia and social media’s amplification of anxiety

   1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr6:38

      One symptom that I have came across and have confronted in my own journey after reading your books is a term I'd call productivity dysmorphia. Uh, for a while, I've... I'm in the room with a bunch of young fellow entrepreneurs and freelancers, and we, we consume a lot of this kind of type A content online, uh, like sleep doesn't matter, work until your eyes bleed.

   2. OBOliver Burkeman7:01

      Yeah.

   3. DJDavid McIntosh Jr7:01

      That kind of stuff.

   4. OBOliver Burkeman7:02

      Yeah, yeah.

   5. DJDavid McIntosh Jr7:02

      Um, but in fact, your book has, for me, uncoiled a lot of those beliefs, and in fact, you can be more pr- productive, hand over more quality work by doing less and not berating yourself on the way.

   6. OBOliver Burkeman7:15

      Mm-hmm.

   7. DJDavid McIntosh Jr7:15

      And do you think social media has a responsibility to play or the types of content creators on social m- uh, social media has a, a responsibility to play in this kind of productivity dysmorphia that we face?

   8. OBOliver Burkeman7:28

      I mean, yes and no, right? And the no part is that I was totally in this situation, uh, long before much social media existed. I mean, I'm, I'm, uh, I, I'm of an age, Generation X, such that computer technology, and to some extent the internet, was, was in the water when I was... from when I was a sort of teenager. But social media is a development of some time after that, and I was already deep in that kind of feeling of needing to do more to feel all right about myself. So talk about that if you like. But I definitely think it's a, a sort of an exacerbator and a, and a catalyst because, um, you know, a- apart from anything else, it, it's a very appealing... When you're stuck in that space, you want more advice that implies like it might be the silver bullet to get, you know, the one thing that if you started doing, you'd finally, you'd finally get to that plateau of being in control. Or if it feels more like what you need is kind of, uh, gumption and mindset, then you need to keep consuming those messages to keep you lift- lifted up and, and, and sort of high on that stuff. So I definitely think there's a... It, it's a bit like, you know, we talk about how social media spreads a lot of anxiety about political topics or about, um, an anger about political topics or about, like, whether AI is going to lead to the end of the world or all these kind of apocalyptic visions that are all to do with, like, anxiety is kind of contagious. And I think anxiety about productivity is, is contagious too. And, like, the message that, yeah, if you just emulated somebody a bit with a bit... in a slightly more disciplined way, or you got up another half hour earlier, or in some other way you sort of like squelched your desire to, like, rest and relax and sleep or whatever, then you'd finally get there. I think that's a very, very seductive message.

   9. DJDavid McIntosh Jr9:24

      I saw an internet meme, I think it must've been yesterday, and it was like, "Me resting. Also me resting, trying to find a more productive way to rest." [laughs]

   10. OBOliver Burkeman9:33

       Right. Yeah, yeah.

6. 9:35 – 12:08

   Why output gets confused with virtue: work ethic, capitalism, insecurity

   1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr9:35

      And it's so true. Like, I, I berate myself quite a lot from, from doing that. Um, what was the history or maybe even the evolutionary biology, uh, of us attaching quantity of output to quality of character? I can't imagine that it's the same across every culture in society. Uh, I can't imagine that other mammals feel the same way. Why do we, maybe in the UK and maybe the West, have that correlation or that, uh, relationship?

   2. OBOliver Burkeman10:04

      I mean, I think there are so many different reasons that it's almost not worth trying to identify, like, specifically one of them. I'm sure that it's a sort of combination of evolutionary reasons and, like, capitalism, and there's lots of religious in- um, influences in there as well. The Protestant work ethic, right, is one of the classic, um, ways of understanding this, this notion that, that, um, through the amount of work that you do, you demonstrate that you're, like, saved in a, in a, in a religious sense. But there's something of that even for those of us who are, like, sort of completely secular. There is that sense of like there's something a- like, salvation-related in this idea. There's the idea that if you could only get enough done and be a kind of person who was sufficiently optimized to do all the things that life threw at you and all the things you wanted to do, like, then you would reach this level of, um, adequacy. And obviously, you know, like, consumer capitalism has a great interest in keeping us feeling like we're not quite there yet because then you keep working and you keep buying and spending, all the rest of it. Maybe even evolution. I'm a little bit usually suspicious of evolutionary arguments, but, like, yeah, evolution doesn't have a strong interest in your being happy, right? It has a strong interest in your being just dissatisfied enough to keep doing all the things it wants you to, to be doing. I think what it adds up to for a lot of us is that feeling that I think you were referring to earlier, right? That, um, it's not like you'd like to achieve a whole bunch of stuff because that would be fantastic and your life could be even better than it is now and you could help lots of people and it would be satisfying. It's like you have to do all this stuff because then maybe you'd get up to the baseline level of like, okay, I'm gonna be financially okay and I can feel good about myself and la, la, la. So it's like all this struggle just to be, like, just about all right. And I think you see that in a lot of people who are, like, famously very wealthy and successful and powerful, right? They're doing it Fueled by some kind of pretty deep insecurity

7. 12:08 – 14:58

   Cambridge anxiety, class signals, and “life-or-death” achievement pressure

   1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr12:08

      Is this something that's confronted your character in your own life? We, we spoke before we started recording that you went to a comprehensive school and then found yourself in Cambridge.

   2. OBOliver Burkeman12:18

      Mm-hmm.

   3. DJDavid McIntosh Jr12:18

      And I, I often think about how people act in accordance to their reward systems-

   4. OBOliver Burkeman12:23

      Yeah

   5. DJDavid McIntosh Jr12:23

      ... uh, whether that's in an organizational environment, uh, that their bosses, uh, commands or a place like Cambridge that is affluent with high achievers.

   6. OBOliver Burkeman12:32

      Mm-hmm.

   7. DJDavid McIntosh Jr12:33

      H- were you confronted with that in your own journey, specifically in Cambridge?

   8. OBOliver Burkeman12:38

      I think something significant happened to me around that college time, right? 'Cause I wasn't a super anxious kid at school, and I was, I was a ball of anxiety at university. And I mean, I don't wanna make it sound like I came from a very, very gritty working class comprehensive school. It was a pretty, like, comfortable kind of comprehensive school. But still, you know, fi- you find it sort of relatively easy to be, um ... I found it relatively easy to be, like, do very well com- compared to the average, like, in that school, and I was probably had, you know, one of the more privileged lives of people in that school. And then suddenly you're in this domain where, like, everybody's only there 'cause they were the top of their class in the whole country, and a whole lot of them come with this kind of, like, infused into their blood confidence that you get from a different, a- another layer again of the, of the, of the class system. So yeah, like, at that point, I became sort of very stressed out that I didn't have what it took to, to do well enough. Um, and also, and this I f- get from goodness knows where, I mean, I can speculate, but, like, also this sense that that was like life or death, right? 'Cause that's the ... One of the things that I think goes along with this mindset is not just that you really, really, really want to, like, do more and drive yourself harder, but that if you didn't, that would be, like, a total calamity. And partly, you know, the s- economic system that we live in reinforces that, right? It is really bad if you can't get the qualifications you need and find the job opportunity you need. Things are not, you know, things are not good for people who, who can't, who, who have the misfortune to not be able to do that. But at the same time, you know, like, it, it would've been okay if I hadn't got, like, the best possible grade in, in the best possible class or degree or whatever. And I don't think I was aware of that at all during my college days. I think I was basically like, "This is just, I've just got to excel in this, otherwise, like, it's all over." It's very strange 'cause I don't think I got that message, at least overtly from my parents. I think that, that I, I, yeah. I, I ... But I got to, to Cambridge and was, yeah, felt I had to do anything I possibly could to try to, like, keep my head above water.

8. 14:58 – 18:27

   Applying finitude inside high-pressure organizations: autonomy, priorities, inner discipline

   1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr14:58

      To make this practical f- to the listener, and frankly I'm asking for myself, if anything, uh, if there are people listening to this who work in an organization that praises achievement and productivity, and sometimes the metrics of success within those organizations are utilization, for example. That's me talking from a-

   2. OBOliver Burkeman15:16

      Right

   3. DJDavid McIntosh Jr15:16

      ... consulting background. How does one take what they've learned from your book, which in the grand scheme of things, I, I feel encourages a slower pace of life, at least a slower pace of mind, but then these reward systems on the fringe of their everyday life, it keeps sustenance, uh, in, in their life. It, it pays them bills. How, how does one marry the environments in which they have to go to work in and this, uh, newfound learning from your books that, in my opinion, creates a, yeah, a slower pace of life?

   4. OBOliver Burkeman15:44

      Yeah, I think it's a really good question, and although I don't work inside one of those environments, you know, we all work inside this culture which has a lot of the same, the same messages. Uh, I think a big part of the point is to really sort of emphasize this, this thing which you've already touched on, that, like, this ... Although I think this does point to a sort of slower and gentler and calmer pace of life, I also think it leads to more accomplishment on the things that, that matter, right? So I do think that whatever autonomy you have in a corporate context to, to sort of say, "Let me go off and do my thing," like, the results are going to speak for themselves to some extent. Um, there is that awkward conversation, depending on the context, where you have to say like, you know, um, "Can we experiment with this?" Cal Newport, who I'm sure you're familiar with his work, has done, like, a lot of interesting work on this specific question of, like, persuading senior management to experiment to see if it isn't in their own best interests to let these things, to let these things happen, because I really think that they, that they ultimately are. The, the, the sort of accompli- the sort of productivity at all costs, um, uh, approach not only leaves people burned out and unsatisfied and wanting to look for another job, but it, there are reasons why it sort of systematically prioritizes the wrong work and systematically causes people to focus on the things that they can either, you know, get the quickest burst of dopamine for having finished or the quickest proof that, like, proof of life in the surveillance systems of the company to show that they're doing things. But that is going to almost always mean not the things that move the needle the most, right? For the, for the organization as much as for the, as much as for the individual. The other side of it, I guess, is just that, like, it's like an internal ... Sorry, I tapped the microphone. The other side of it is it's like an internal psychological process ultimately, right? You go to your desk, and you have to make choices as a finite human with a vastly greater range of things you could do with the next hour than you're, um, gonna be able to do with the next hour, 'cause you can only be in one place at one time. And to some extent, even if the culture around you demands that you do 20 things with that time, like, it, pretending that you're ever going to meet that request is going to, isn't gonna help anybody And so there's actually a sort of inner discipline of like, okay, these are the inputs, these are the pressures, and this is what I'm going to do because the reality is I'm finite. Whatever, um, management might, might wish.

9. 18:27 – 22:12

   Finding what matters: values aren’t a retreat exercise, but daily course-corrections

   1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr18:27

      You know, to revert on a sentiment I heard you say around having more time to focus on what matters. How does one begin to reconcile what matters in their life? Specifically, I'm thinking about someone like myself, who grew up in a working class council estate, whose reward systems, uh, encouraged them that financial stability and prestige and status is what would make me happy, and, uh, trying to put the toothpaste back into the tube, uh, I realize it doesn't. None of those things make me happy. How, how does one begin to self-examine themself to understand what meaningful work or meaningful tasks look like?

   2. OBOliver Burkeman19:04

      I mean, I don't wanna underestimate the importance of financial security and things like that, right? And to some extent, this is a sort of Maslow's hierarchy of needs question. Like, you do need to focus on certain things in order to have the luxury to focus on the, the, the, the next ones. I think the big danger is to imagine that this kind of finding your life purpose, working out your guiding values is some kind of top-down thing, where you're gonna go away on a retreat for a week or, you know, whatever, and then come up with a system, and then you're gonna, like, force your life to comply with this system. On some level, right, the list of things that make for a meaningful life is so universal that it's kind of boring, right? Where everyone knows that it's rich social relationships, uh, that it, um, t- time, sort of time to yourself and time with others, time in nature, uh, doing things that feel like they make a difference and serve other people, as well as simply sort of helping you, um, make a living. This is, like, such a cliché. When it comes to actually, like, operationalizing that, I think it's really important to see it as a kind of a constant course correction moment-to-moment thing. And for me, the real point at which the rubber hits the road with this question is not in some sort of mission statement of what you want your life to be. But in that feeling of, like, getting into that intuitive place of being able to choose, like, okay, I've got several things I could do with the next hour, uh, on Tuesday morning at 11:00 AM or whatever, or, you know, on a weekend. Which one... There are different ways into this. There's a great, um, Jungian therapist called James Hollis who talks about asking which choice enlarges us or diminishes us. That's a really interesting question. Um, sometimes I think of it using phrases like, you know, what is it, what's the one thing that kind of needs to happen now? What's life asking of me right now? There's these various grand ways of doing it, but really, moment to moment, I think it's just doing what you can to keep in touch with that almost pre-verbal sense of like, is this something that is, uh, like, a good way for me to be spending some of my time on the planet? It's kind of a dissatisfying answer, I accept, because it isn't a sort of a matrix and you get the answer at the end, and then you go do it. But, um, I think that's the way to do it, and I think it's then also a question of, of learning gradually and painfully to give, like, your full attention to that thing once you're doing it. I have situations all the time where I could choose to do more work, or I could choose to spend a bit more time with my eight-year-old son, and the cliché would be to say, like, the right thing to do is always to not do the work and always to spend time with the child. And, you know, I try to do that a lot. But the real important point is that, like, once I've decided that one of them is what I'm gonna do, can I, can I let go for that hour or two of all the thoughts about the other one that, like, sort of needs doing as well?

10. 22:12 – 30:06

    “Life task” and “playing in the ruins”: agency within real constraints

    1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr22:12

       One of the concepts in your book that I really enjoyed was this idea of a life task.

    2. OBOliver Burkeman22:17

       Mm-hmm.

    3. DJDavid McIntosh Jr22:18

       Uh, when we have greater endeavors and s- we, we feel like we've got these greater endeavors in store for us, but we don't have the material or resources to, to achieve them. This concept of a life task is like, what's life calling of, of, of me at the moment, and what resources do I have-

    4. OBOliver Burkeman22:34

       Yeah

    5. DJDavid McIntosh Jr22:34

       ... surrounding me to achieve that? I really love that idea. Could you bring that to life for anyone who's listening?

    6. OBOliver Burkeman22:39

       Yeah, I mean, I sort of borrowed and probably adapted this idea from Carl Jung, right? The phrase is something that, that sort of Jungians, uh, like to use a lot, and some people talk about as if, like, you have one life task in your life. I'm thinking of it more in a sort of moment-to-moment, week-to-week, month-to-month way. But it's this idea of, like, not asking, what do I want out of life right now? What would make me happy? But actually, yeah, asking like, what's the, what, what's the work that, like, I'm here to do? Like, what's the thing that I, I am here to do? And I don't think that means that you have to... I think this is important. I don't think it means you have to give up your, your work as a, or your ambitions as a singer-songwriter and become a humanitarian aid worker or is that, right? It could do. But it also could be that actually the thing that is yours to do is the thing that f- might feel to you like it's a hobby or like it's some, an indulgence or something. And I think it can, uh, sometimes take more, um, strength of character to be okay with the fact that you're not going to be ma- doing some sort of grandiose service to humankind as your, as your thing. So it's not about, like, becoming just a pure kind of do-gooder instead of following what brings you alive. It's about following what brings you alive. But yeah. Jung makes this really interesting point that it's gonna probably be difficult, right? The, your life task is probably not gonna be something that just comes completely easily and takes no effort and just involves like, like lying around doing nothing. But it's gonna be something that you can do. Like, there'll be a next step that you can take in your current situation. And what's so important about that, I think, is that there's a whole lot of ideas in the culture about destiny and fate and life purpose and all these things, where people get into their heads that, like, they're, they were meant to be X, but their situation means they've got to be Y instead. And so, you know, the example I give in the book, like, your, your life task is not gonna be that you have to do something that involves spending thousands and thousands of pounds on film equipment to become a movie maker if you've got 100 pounds in the bank. It might involve something that takes you there step by step later in the future, but it's not gonna be like, "My economic situation means that I can't achieve my destiny." Or another example, maybe somebody ... People sometimes feel that it was their sort of destiny and their purpose in life to have children, but they're not able to be biological parents. Again, your life task is something else, 'cause your life task is adjacent to where you actually are. And even, I don't know, maybe there aren't life tasks in some sort of scientific sense, right? But that's just a really useful frame for thinking. Like, what is the intersection of what makes me feel alive and what I could do next with the resources that are around me right now, instead of, like, what lies over this kind of unreachable, un- unbridgeable chasm of opportunity or privilege or personality type or anything else.

    7. DJDavid McIntosh Jr25:46

       That was a, a, a super u- useful, uh, concept when I was reading your book for me, because I was thinking about all the, the larger shows that exist or the larger podcasts-

    8. OBOliver Burkeman25:57

       Mm-hmm

    9. DJDavid McIntosh Jr25:57

       ... that have these LED backdrop walls and-

    10. OBOliver Burkeman25:59

        Oh, yeah

    11. DJDavid McIntosh Jr26:00

        ... 8K cameras, and they do these amazing remote podcasts with 10, 15-man team. Uh, and at times I've been disheartened in my own journey around comparing myself to these other creators. Um, but then I look back after hearing about the life task, uh, analogy. I, I've been looking back at the instrumental, um, sorry, incremental-

    12. OBOliver Burkeman26:22

        Mm

    13. DJDavid McIntosh Jr26:22

        ... kind of journey that I've been on from, like, webcam podcasting-

    14. OBOliver Burkeman26:24

        Yeah

    15. DJDavid McIntosh Jr26:24

        ... to being here in the Assembly Rooms with, like, f- four guys behind the cameras, and m- making most of what we have. And, um, it, it allowed me to gain a level of peace and serenity that I never had before. And, um, I think it's a really good analogy or frame for especially people from kind of lower socioeconomic backgrounds who don't have typical-

    16. OBOliver Burkeman26:48

        Mm-hmm

    17. DJDavid McIntosh Jr26:48

        ... financial and non-financial resources to achieve what they might see on TV, on social media, is that there is something, there is a locus of control that-

    18. OBOliver Burkeman26:56

        Yeah

    19. DJDavid McIntosh Jr26:56

        ... that lies within your environment-

    20. OBOliver Burkeman26:57

        Yeah

    21. DJDavid McIntosh Jr26:57

        ... to have a better life. And, and by better, I don't mean more physically secure, I just mean more enjoyable. Um, and no matter where you are in your life, no matter what your origin story is, you, you have that locus of control. Everyone has a life task, uh-

    22. OBOliver Burkeman27:11

        Yeah

    23. DJDavid McIntosh Jr27:11

        ... that lies before them, and they can take it.

    24. OBOliver Burkeman27:13

        Yeah, no, I really like the way you put that. And of course, you know, I wanna say as well that, like, there's a very common criticism of self-help culture in general, right? Which is that it's kind of relentlessly hyper-individual, and it says, like, "It's on you to sort out your life, and don't complain about having been born into a situation less privileged than somebody else. Just get to work."

    25. DJDavid McIntosh Jr27:35

        Do you remember when Molly-Mae went on... Was it Stephen Bartlett's podcast that she went on in? She got berated for saying, "We all have the same 24 hours." And it was like, uh, when it, when it went across the internet, she was a- absolutely torn apart for it.

    26. OBOliver Burkeman27:45

        [laughs]

    27. DJDavid McIntosh Jr27:46

        Um-

    28. OBOliver Burkeman27:47

        Right, 'cause, like, we do, but on the other hand, if you've got 10 people to do stuff for you-

    29. DJDavid McIntosh Jr27:51

        [laughs]

    30. OBOliver Burkeman27:51

        ... in the 24 hours, it's different than if you haven't, right? Um, yeah. Um, I'm remembering a tweet that came, that was went everywhere in, in, uh, COVID as well about, that was like, um, some awful hustle culture stuff about, like, if you don't come out of this pandemic with, like, a new business-
11. 30:06 – 34:54

    Planning, self-berating, and Marcus Aurelius: trusting future-you without rigid scripts

    1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr30:06

       I love it. I absolutely love it. One of the things that unearthed, uh, my own attitude towards productivity was almost renouncing planning or at least my, uh, attachment with planning.

    2. OBOliver Burkeman30:20

       Mm-hmm.

    3. DJDavid McIntosh Jr30:21

       And, uh, there's another great quote in your book. I think it's Marcus Aurelius, and I'm gonna absolutely bastardize this right now. But-

    4. OBOliver Burkeman30:26

       It's a new translation.

    5. DJDavid McIntosh Jr30:27

       [laughs] It's a Scottish translate-solution. Let me actually find it. I think it's chapter [laughs] uh, oh, and just, just like that, I, uh, I opened it up.

    6. OBOliver Burkeman30:36

       Nice.

    7. DJDavid McIntosh Jr30:38

       Never let the future disturb you. You will meet it, if you have to, with the same weapons of reason which you, which today arm you against the present. I absolutely love that-

    8. OBOliver Burkeman30:46

       Mm

    9. DJDavid McIntosh Jr30:46

       ... um, because every single week I'll find myself derailing from a habit or, uh, a, a promise I've made to myself. And on, on a Sunday evening I go into ChatGPT or some other AI tool and say, "Make me a plan this week so I don't, um, miss this habit." But, um, I, I, I... and if I do miss these habits, I actually berate myself.

    10. OBOliver Burkeman31:05

        Mm.

    11. DJDavid McIntosh Jr31:05

        I remember James, James Clear having a, a quote in Atomic Habits, and it's something like, um, every action is a vote for the type of-

    12. OBOliver Burkeman31:16

        Yeah

    13. DJDavid McIntosh Jr31:16

        ... person you become or something like that.

    14. OBOliver Burkeman31:18

        I know the quote. Yeah.

    15. DJDavid McIntosh Jr31:18

        You know?

    16. OBOliver Burkeman31:18

        Yeah, yeah.

    17. DJDavid McIntosh Jr31:19

        Yeah, something like that. And, uh, every time I miss one of those habits, then I'm, like, lambasting my own character for that.

    18. OBOliver Burkeman31:24

        Right, right.

    19. DJDavid McIntosh Jr31:25

        Um, but in your book, you kind of dissect the individualistic relationship with, with planning.

    20. OBOliver Burkeman31:31

        I mean, to me, that Marcus Aurelius quote is so lovely 'cause it sort of points out this really strange thing that we do, right? Which is we just don't trust future us to stay on the straight and narrow or to do the thing that the moment calls for when it, when it arrives. But we really trust present Na- uh, self to, to make these kind of incredibly rigid plans which we're then gonna, like, try and hold ourselves to. Problem with this is, like, either it fails because life gets in the way and interrupts you, and your plan doesn't... it's, it's impossible to stick to and you berate yourself. Or even when it succeeds, it sort of has this effect, for me anyway, and I know I'm not alone, I don't know if it's universal, but, like, this f- it sort of drains life of its, um, life and vigor somehow, right? Because you, your week just becomes like, "Oh, I'm just putting into practice these steps that, like, this guy, which was me yesterday-

    21. DJDavid McIntosh Jr32:22

        [laughs]

    22. OBOliver Burkeman32:23

        ... decided that I had to put into practice." Or ChatGPT decided, even worse, I would say.

    23. DJDavid McIntosh Jr32:27

        [laughs]

    24. OBOliver Burkeman32:27

        Um, uh, so, so, like, m- m- I think what we're trying to... A lot of the time what we're doing when we try to plan in this very ambitious way is we're trying to kind of throw a straitjacket around the future and say, like, "This is what is going to happen, and I can be confident now that this is what I'm gonna want to do later, or I'm going to make myself do later, or that events are going to allow me to do later." And Marcus in that quote is just saying, like, well, you know, first of all, I would say, he almost certainly says it as well somewhere, 'cause he says all the, all the wisdom. But, like, firstly, you can't know in advance w- the situation when you tell yourself that you're going to go and do X habit at X o'clock. Like, not only do you not know what will happen in your external reality, but your mood is like a, it's a factor, right? You can't just completely ignore the fact that you might feel absolutely unable or unmotivated to do it. But on the other hand, like, you've got a really good track record up till now in your life of having managed to, like, do a bunch of stuff and respond to things when they happen and, and, uh, sort of go with the flow and take things as they arise. I think what this speaks to is a, is a role for planning which is not like throw it out and just sort of float around doing, doing nothing, but to really understand it as a kind of a navigational tool. So I'm a big fan of, like, you know, writing out, uh, in sort of present tense language the, the sort of that kind of ideal normal day practice that people have got. Right? That sort of idea of, like, having a vision of what you'd, how you'd like to be showing up in your life and how you'd like your life to be, or having some sort of basic principles that you're navigating by. The problem comes when you take them and you, like, turn it into this incredibly rigid, like, these are my monthly targets, these are my weekly milestones, these are my daily things, and then this is the time box day of everything that's gonna happen. Apart from anything else, you're saying, like, it doesn't matter what you feel like in the moment. And I would say, like, maybe we could harness that energy of what we feel like instead of constantly trying to stamp it out. I've certainly found life more suc- goes more smoothly and successfully that way, right? 'Cause you... it does matter what you feel like doing. It's not, doesn't mean you just hedonistically, you know, amble through life doing nothing difficult. But it does matter what you feel like.

12. 34:54 – 38:44

    Desires as data: getting things done by not being mean to yourself

    1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr34:54

       Yeah. Dou- double click on that for me. Like, what role does our desires play in navigating us through life?

    2. OBOliver Burkeman35:01

       I mean, I th- I can't... I, I, I think I mention it in, in the book, but I certainly mentioned it. [laughs] I'm losing track. But, like, this, th- there's a blog post that a friend of mine, the meditation teacher Susan Piver wrote, which has the headline, um, Getting Things Done by Not Being Mean to Yourself, which was a real sort of, uh, you know, moment of insight for me 'cause I realized exactly how mean I had been being to myself to try to, to try to get things done. There is this inner conflict that we set up when we say, like, um, you know, "These are things I'm gonna do, and I'm not gonna let my stupid moods get in the way." And even that quote that everyone loves from Chuck Close, right? Um, "Inspiration is for amateurs. The rest of us just show up and get to work." Like, everyone loves that. It's like so down to earth and, like, just, you know, getting down to business. But it has this edge of, like, you know, it doesn't matter what mood you're in, it doesn't matter what gives you pleasure in life, it's just do it, do it, do it, do it. And apart from anything else, it's just not a, um, a constructive way to, to get those things done because you set up this inner struggle. You're so annoyed with yourself. It's just, it's just sort of internal combat. And Susan Piver writes about how when she allowed herself to do the things that, um, she wanted to do, when she allowed that question, like, "What do I feel like doing?" to at least have some role in navigating through the day, a lot of those things you might worry you would never get around to doing, she did. 'Cause, like, most of us, the implication of, of... a lot of, a lot of people seem to assume that they'd be, like, the worst people in the world if they didn't keep a- ... a hawkish eye on themselves, right? All day long. They just completely forget it all and unravel. But most, that's not true. Like, you know, if you're interested in this stuff in the first place, you're interested in doing interesting stuff in the world and keeping your commitments and delivering, uh, things you said you'll deliver, and shipping product and all the rest of it. So there's something really important about, uh, allowing a role for what you feel like doing and harnessing that energy, yeah, instead of stamping it down.

    3. DJDavid McIntosh Jr37:12

       If I were to swap myself out and David Goggins were to be sitting here-

    4. OBOliver Burkeman37:17

       Oh, yeah

    5. DJDavid McIntosh Jr37:17

       ... [laughs] what do you think he would say to me?

    6. OBOliver Burkeman37:18

       He would, he'd be running, he'd be running, uh, for 100 miles, uh, down the street instead. I mean, what he would say? Interesting. I'd like to, I'd like to do a podcast with him. Um, you know, I, I, I guess I don't know his work in enough detail to understand whether my general sense from some of the shorter clips that I've seen here and there of him not being a happy person. [laughs] Uh, I don't know if that's fair, right? I'm not inside his mind, and it's totally unfair of me to say that. I think that self-discipline really is really important and often plays a role. A certain kind of combative self-discipline often plays a role for people in getting them out of a, kind of a rut or a bad situation, and then it sort of risks becoming the only method that they, that they know. The idea that there's always got to be more, there's always got to be, you know, harder, faster, more, more endurance, more, more success. Um, so yeah, you asked me what he would say. He would probably say that this was a recipe for, um, uh, that this was a recipe for just sort of unraveling into a, a person who never, who ended life frustrated that they hadn't achieved their dreams. But, but I don't think that it is. I think I would, uh, I would argue with that if, um, imaginary David Goggins in my head made that, made that argument. Do you think he'd say that? I don't know.

13. 38:44 – 43:26

    Streaks, Seinfeld, and “daily-ish”: resilience matters more than never missing

    1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr38:44

       Yeah. Well, um, it's making me think about those, and I, I've been guilty of it, who attach or interchange the outcome to the measure.

    2. OBOliver Burkeman38:53

       Mm-hmm.

    3. DJDavid McIntosh Jr38:53

       Uh, and I, I'm reminded of, um, is it Jerry Seinfeld in your book who kind of s- satirically talks about doing things every single day, and every single day, uh, when he writes a joke or performs a joke, he writes an X in his calendar to-

    4. OBOliver Burkeman39:08

       Yeah, yeah

    5. DJDavid McIntosh Jr39:08

       ... showcase that he does it every single day.

    6. OBOliver Burkeman39:09

       Yeah.

    7. DJDavid McIntosh Jr39:09

       And in fact, it was satire. It was a joke. Uh, and in fact, we should be doing things daily-ish, but then there's so many of us who attach ourselves to, uh, almost like the internal tally mark that we, we-

    8. OBOliver Burkeman39:21

       Yeah. I mean, that was such an interesting case 'cause I'm not even sure it was satire exactly. I think he was just generally saying, like, if you want to get good at something, you have to do it many days. But then I, yeah, I got to interview him for The Guardian, and what the interview was not about-

    9. DJDavid McIntosh Jr39:34

       Which is crazy, like Jerry Seinfeld

    10. OBOliver Burkeman39:36

        Yeah

    11. DJDavid McIntosh Jr39:36

        That's nuts.

    12. OBOliver Burkeman39:36

        No, it was amazing.

    13. DJDavid McIntosh Jr39:37

        Yeah, that'd be fun.

    14. OBOliver Burkeman39:37

        And the interview was not about productivity, by the way, but I snuck in my-

    15. DJDavid McIntosh Jr39:41

        [laughs]

    16. OBOliver Burkeman39:41

        ... my questions, right? 'Cause I wanted to be like, "Do you really, like, do this every day?" And he was... Turned out he'd, like... Some, like, um, up-and-coming or, or, um, wanna, wannabe comic had, had asked him this question, like how to get the work done at some club once, and he'd said, he'd said this thing, but he was just completely incredulous that anyone thought this was useful information. He's like, "Yeah, if you wanna get good at something, you have to, like, do it. You know, if you just never do it, it's not gonna happen." And that's a sort of, um, you know, it's a kind of athletic approach to creativity, which I think is really interesting, right? Nobody would ever think that they were... No tennis player would think that they were going to stay good at tennis by just sort of, you know, putting in a really intense day every, every, um, couple of months. And, um, he was saying the same thing. But yes, that notion that what he was really meaning was like you must never break the chain, and you must keep that, um, streak going. It's quite harmful actually, because then, you know, when you do break the chain, it becomes a much bigger, um, deal than if you are just trying to do things, uh, daily-ish. 'Cause, yeah, like you're such a loser because now there's a, now there's a single gap in the chain. I think the much more important skill is actually like being able to get back in the saddle and say like, "Okay, I did this for three days and then I've missed a couple of days, but that's okay. Now I'll do the next day." It's m- too brittle otherwise, right? To say like, "I'm never going to break the chain," 'cause you will for some reason, and then you'll end up sort of more demotivated than if you hadn't been trying to keep the streak going.

    17. DJDavid McIntosh Jr41:20

        And, and I guess if you can unclench that idea of having to do something every single day, uh, a- and tie that to your self-worth, the thing that might actually fill that gap when you do break it could be something more richer, more story worthy than the, the habit itself. Um-

    18. OBOliver Burkeman41:38

        Oh, yeah. Yeah

    19. DJDavid McIntosh Jr41:39

        ... 'cause I, I remember, like it was two weeks ago, um, I was sat in a, in a university library just doing some podcast work because I tend to do that most days or every day. And, uh, I booked a random trip to Morocco within like 24 hours of the flight. And, uh, for so long I was kind of thinking about the opportunity cost of, of doing that.

    20. OBOliver Burkeman41:58

        Yeah.

    21. DJDavid McIntosh Jr41:58

        I was, um, berating myself for not having worked out enough that week and not doing enough podcast stuff that week, and then went on this amazing, uh, three, four night escapade to like a rural surf town in Morocco and had the most incredible time, amazing stories. But just kind of ironically, what I ended up doing whilst there was filming a podcast. [laughs]

    22. OBOliver Burkeman42:20

        Right. Right.

    23. DJDavid McIntosh Jr42:21

        So-

    24. OBOliver Burkeman42:22

        Yeah, yeah

    25. DJDavid McIntosh Jr42:22

        ... what, what seemed to be a gap in my, my routine actually filled it with something that was far more rich than staying in Glasgow on a, a miserable day. [laughs]

    26. OBOliver Burkeman42:31

        Yeah. Well, I mean, and this is the, the sort of big, deep point that this connects to, right? Is one of the many ways in which we're limited as humans is that we don't have, like, anything close to unlimited knowledge of, like- What would be the most meaningful thing to do with, uh, uh, a bit of time in the future or in the present? So like, this is another argument against overly rigid planning because the, the sort of really rigid planner is assuming that he or she is, like, knows everything about what could happen and be most useful. And, and actually, like, you know, we have some role in that, but no, you can't, you can't possibly, you can't possibly say. Even if you'd gone there and just had a good time, that could have in some more sort of intangible way played very positively into future projects, or could have just been a good way to use three or four of your days on the planet. And as it was, it was even, even better than that. Yeah.

14. 43:26 – 50:44

    Atelic activities, goals, and the danger of living only for the next milestone

    1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr43:26

       When I met Jimmy Carr for, um, a- an interview maybe like a year ago, he brought up atelic tasks, and it's something I think he brought from one of your books.

    2. OBOliver Burkeman43:35

       Oh, right.

    3. DJDavid McIntosh Jr43:35

       Um, and, uh, uh, I believe it's the type of task that you do for the task's sake, not for what it gets you, essentially. Um-

    4. OBOliver Burkeman43:43

       Yeah

    5. DJDavid McIntosh Jr43:43

       ... and it's q- quite funny actually. I was, uh, speaking to my girlfriend recently who's a PhD candidate, and she was, uh, working by herself all the time, feeling very dissatisfied, uh, because she didn't have a community around her, uh, to support her, uh, and to bounce ideas off of and to go through what is such an arduous, uh, adventure by herself. So she started this writing group, um, so she had camaraderie and-

    6. OBOliver Burkeman44:07

       Yeah

    7. DJDavid McIntosh Jr44:08

       ... shared experience and a shared reality. And of course, the first thing I mentioned to her was like, "Oh, you can monetize this." [laughs]

    8. OBOliver Burkeman44:14

       [laughs] Right.

    9. DJDavid McIntosh Jr44:14

       "There could be a paywall here."

    10. OBOliver Burkeman44:15

        That's great. [laughs]

    11. DJDavid McIntosh Jr44:15

        And she was like, "You know, I'm not gonna... Like, it's such a you thing to, like, take something that is so wholesome and then attach a pay tag to it."

    12. OBOliver Burkeman44:22

        Right. Do it for some other reason. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    13. DJDavid McIntosh Jr44:24

        Uh, and then, then she reminded me of this term, like, like atelic-

    14. OBOliver Burkeman44:26

        Yeah

    15. DJDavid McIntosh Jr44:26

        ... like just doing it for the sake of doing. And, uh, uh, uh, it j- it was just a funny, uh-

    16. OBOliver Burkeman44:30

        No, that's a great example. Yeah. The, I, I write about that term. It comes originally from, or as far as I know, comes originally from a philosopher called Kieran Setiya, who, who, um, who, yeah, talks about how, how easy it is to slip into that and, and how he realized at midlife he had slipped into that, um, mindset where, like, the value of everything you're doing is because it's leading up to something else. And, like, this has a role in life, right? It's good to pursue long-term projects and build businesses and create organizations and make money and build families, all... Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But, like, at some point, there has to be something in your life that you're doing, like, for itself. Otherwise, you get into that trap of, like, the meaning of life is always in the future, and then one day you die. And that's, uh, [laughs] and you never got there. So yeah. I've found, I mean, getting, getting a bit older will, will do this as well, right? You start to sort of, um, I think it's a sort of a natural development for lots of people. You start feeling more like, "Okay, do I want to be doing that with that day when I'm asked to do some, some p- particular opportunity comes along," right? That's got to have a role to play along with, you know, will it be for my benefit or somebody's benefit in the long run?

    17. DJDavid McIntosh Jr45:49

        Does over-investing in goals str- uh, strip meaning from the present?

    18. OBOliver Burkeman45:57

        Over-investing in goals? Yeah. I mean, I think, I think that is what we're talking about here, right? It's this, it's this sense that if the r- ultimate real reason that you're doing anything is to get to that place where you can say like, "I've achieved this thing," then you do sort of empty out the, the present of its, [coughs] of its, uh, of its value. And yeah, as I say, like, it's not that I don't particularly advocate, still less do I live a kind of a goal-free life where there's nothing I'm working on, nothing I want to achieve, and nothing that I'd like to change about my situation or anything like that. But you've gotta connect, take some time to connect to that question of like, do I often enough find what I'm doing to be absorbing and fun in, in the moment? Like, not all the time, not everything. But like, is it, does that have a role in life? Otherwise, yeah, you end up sort of, uh, totally focused on that moment. And as we all know, like, when you do achieve some sort of long h- long sought after goal, um, very often you feel really thrilled about it for about an hour, you know, or a day, and then all you do is, uh, erect the next big goal in your mind that you've, that you've got to be reaching.

    19. DJDavid McIntosh Jr47:20

        Hearing you speak about interviewing Jerry Seinfeld, I want to ask, are there any other notable characters that you've interviewed surrounding productivity and daily routines and goal setting? Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, and my following question is, are there any surprising insights from different industries that, um, either surprised you or shocked you?

    20. OBOliver Burkeman47:44

        It's a really interesting question. Like, I did a whole chunk of my career where I got to interview some, like, big, big name people, but it wasn't the chunk of my career that was writing [chuckles] about productivity. I was really interested, but I was often in this situation where I'd be interviewing like, you know, a famous actor or politician or somebody. Um-

    21. DJDavid McIntosh Jr48:02

        Can you name drop any?

    22. OBOliver Burkeman48:04

        I mean, who are the biggest name people I ever interviewed? I interviewed Bill Clinton.

    23. DJDavid McIntosh Jr48:07

        What was Bill Clinton like, Oliver?

    24. OBOliver Burkeman48:10

        I mean, it's a cliché about Bill Clinton, right? That he makes ev- anyone he's talking to feel like the most important person in the room at the time, and that was the secret of his success. And so, you know, uh, I definitely got, I definitely got that sense, like, um, you know, I definitely thought every question I was asking him seemed to be, like, a brilliant question, but I don't think they were. I think he's just good at making you feel like they were. And, uh, you know, we had like 20 minutes or something, uh, 'cause the schedule was ridiculous, and you know, should be grateful for a 20-minute interview with, with Bill Clinton. And so, but, but I think when the 20 minutes came up and his aide came and, like, whispered in his ear that time was up, he made some sort of indication that, like, he was sufficiently interested in... our conversation that he wanted to keep going longer. In hindsight, I bet that was all just planned, right? He had half an hour and the, the guy comes at 10 minutes to the end, and then the journalist thinks you're amazing and you get wonderful press. I don't know. But, um, I was... Anyway, all I was gonna say was [laughs] when interviewing people like this, but also kind of, uh, people in the creative industries as well, I was always... I have always been, like, slightly obsessive about asking about their daily routines and rituals, 'cause that does really fascinate me about all those people. And of course, even at levels far, far below Bill Clinton, people have, like, huge teams handling things for them, so it's different. But also, like, one thing that fascinates me about politics is no matter how high up you get as, in politics, like, the day-to-day events that are coming your way are deeply unpredictable. I find that really fascinating. Like, you know, you can achieve the power of being a prime minister or president and, like, you've got no real idea what you're gonna have to be focused on the next day. And then creative people, it's different as well, right? Because you can be, like, a big-time movie star or a big-time writer-director person, but the bit of your creativity that's gonna make you good at your job is, like, it's outside of your control and you might, like... You don't... You have to sort of be very willing to go with the flow and roll with the punches. So in both these cases, these people, the kind of people I interviewed a lot, they, they had a lot of power and authority and a lot of help and all the rest of it, but, like, even that didn't give them control over time really. Um, uh, which I think is really interesting. Like, there's something very interesting and deep there [laughs] to think about.

15. 50:44 – 1:00:35

    AI as planner, therapist, and companion: tool vs mirage—and why efficiency won’t save time

    1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr50:44

       What impact do you think artificial intelligence will have on how people plan and organize their life, and do you think it's a force for good in that aspect or not?

    2. OBOliver Burkeman50:54

       I'm definitely going through a curmudgeonly phase with AI, right? I'm definitely sort of, you know, um, uh, when I mention it in my writing or on social spa- platforms or whatever, I'm definitely more likely to be grumbling and moaning than, uh, excitedly welcoming it. I think it's a very complicated picture, right? Because I tend to be thinking most about, like, generative AI and its role in writing, not the role of AI in, you know, really important work that could lead to a cure for cancer or, you know, other kinds or sort of, you know, uh, pure science and stuff. There's all sorts of stuff where of course it's really important. I tend to think in that role as like an, as a, as a personal helper, whether that's productivity and planning or kind of the therapeutic uses that are so controversially, like, very prominent at the moment. I think, uh, there's m- I think there's mainly pitfalls, to be honest, more than there are, um, a- a- advantages at the moment. Really because our problem always with technology, I think, is to mistake a tool for something more than a tool or different than a tool, and everything about LLMs certainly, like, invites you to make that mistake, right? It's like there's nothing wrong with using apps to do your, plan your week, and there's nothing wrong with using an app that sits on a large language model to plan your week. But if you actually think that, like, there's a brain there that is thinking and that is valuing th- and that has the capacity to sort of value certain things in a genuine, real way, I think that's false about what's going on inside a, inside the code of a, of an LLM, right? There isn't somebody there. And if you're using it as a therapist, I think even more so, right? There's a, the, the, the sort of the, the idea that it will reflect back to you what you, um, put into it and what you ask it is not just a factor of, like, you know, sycophancy in the current models. I think it's, like, deeply structured into the idea of what's going on there, right? That there isn't another individual human. There is, if anything el- if anything, just like an aggregation and an averaging and, of human wisdom and knowledge from everything it's been trained on, which can be useful, but it's not a connection between two people, and I think that's really important. Like, I think that if this conversation that I'm greatly enjoying, if it was to be suddenly revealed to me that I was talking to an extremely, like, a lifelike robot who could simulate everything, like, ev-

    3. DJDavid McIntosh Jr53:33

       You're not far from it, Oliver. [laughs]

    4. OBOliver Burkeman53:35

       Even if it simulated it perfectly, once I knew that, something would have been lo- very important would have been lost, because it's the fact that you're a, that I assume you are a, a conscious, feeling, aware person looking out from behind your eyes, like me, that, that makes for the possibility of something meaningful here.

    5. DJDavid McIntosh Jr53:58

       I interviewed a, a gentleman called Krish Ramani, who's the founder of an AI assistant, uh, unicorn called Fireflies. I'm not sure if you've ever joined a call where someone has one of these in the background.

    6. OBOliver Burkeman54:12

       Yeah. Yeah, I'm aware of Fireflies, yeah.

    7. DJDavid McIntosh Jr54:13

       And he was telling me about-

    8. OBOliver Burkeman54:15

       Yes. But

    9. DJDavid McIntosh Jr54:15

       ... kind of the worrying nature of AI companionship and how he's seen a... I'm not sure if it happened in the US or in the UK, that, um, one of these, uh, large language models organizations, um, removed their AI companionship feature or-

    10. OBOliver Burkeman54:32

        Mm

    11. DJDavid McIntosh Jr54:32

        ... the ability to to, to have companionship with the AI, and there was large scale protests-

    12. OBOliver Burkeman54:37

        Right

    13. DJDavid McIntosh Jr54:38

        ... out in the street. And it's, it's just so worrying that these people have conflated, uh, what is a amalgamation of their input with being a person behind, behind the screens. And I remember when, i- in- in the past, when I, when I've used, um, a AI to plan my day and things without ever putting any sort of personal identifiable information into it, or lo and behold, what I think is PII information into it, or any sort of bio- biographical information into it. It responds to me in a Scottish... With Scottish slang. Uh, and I find that deeply disturbing.

    14. OBOliver Burkeman55:11

        Yeah.

    15. DJDavid McIntosh Jr55:12

        Um, and so-

    16. OBOliver Burkeman55:12

        Wow. That's interesting

    17. DJDavid McIntosh Jr55:13

        ... to go along with what you were saying, that it, it, it does have this mirage that it is your friend, it is a trusted individual.

    18. OBOliver Burkeman55:18

        Yeah.

    19. DJDavid McIntosh Jr55:18

        It is perhaps a therapeutic figure in your life, and in some cases, people are using it as a-

    20. OBOliver Burkeman55:23

        Yeah

    21. DJDavid McIntosh Jr55:23

        ... a companion.

    22. OBOliver Burkeman55:24

        Yeah.

    23. DJDavid McIntosh Jr55:24

        Uh, and it, it's terrifying.

    24. OBOliver Burkeman55:26

        Yeah. No, that's really interesting, and like God knows what combination. I don't know if you have, like, its memory enabled or what combination of, like, algorithmic clues it's, it's, it's drawing on to do that. But, like, yeah. That's quite weird.

    25. DJDavid McIntosh Jr55:37

        [laughs]

    26. OBOliver Burkeman55:37

        The Scottish slang part. Um, yeah, no, and I, and I think, you know, I think we're all prone to do that a little bit. You see and you read about these high-profile examples of psychosis where people kind of completely lose track of reality because they're convinced they're God, you know, because the AI reinforces that. Um, uh, South Park has been very brilliant on this topic, if you've, uh, seen any of those ep- episodes recently. But we're all a little bit prone to that. I mean, I've been a bit worried about this ever since, like, you know, Alexa and Siri, right? They, th- they, they, they encourage us to think that there's somebody there, and some sort of... Not literally. We all know that there's nobody there when you talk to Alexa. But in the sort of felt sense, you're sort of just, like, chatting or making requests of this, of this person. And there's, like, you can see it in little kids, right? Like, there's something wrong about, um, a device where you're encouraged to think of it as a person, but you're also encouraged to think of it as just carrying out your every whim, 'cause that's kind of like a bad relationship to have. Um, and so kids become very rude around... Like, you know, this was always a worry since we, since Alexa first came on the scene, that it would turn kids into, like, assholes, basically, 'cause they would, they would obnoxiously demand things of Alexa, and then they would just obnoxiously demand things of their parents as well, because, like, they didn't know any better. So I think there's something really important about what it, what it does to us as humans. Yeah.

    27. DJDavid McIntosh Jr57:00

        What's come to mind, Oliver, is some of your writing around burnout, actually. Uh, one of the fascinating insights that I've received from your book, and I might be kind of going off-piste or bastardizing this a little bit, is that burnout doesn't always stem from metaphorically putting your foot down on the accelerator to, like, the red zone in a kind of pressure gauge or an acceleration gauge, but in fact can come from, uh, routine-like, mechanistic, uh, sedentary-type tasks. You can actually have very similar symptoms to burnout from doing kind of l- low-effort, menial tasks. And I, I think about AI, how AI can replace some of these tasks.

    28. OBOliver Burkeman57:43

        Mm-hmm.

    29. DJDavid McIntosh Jr57:43

        Whether it's diary management or sending, uh, and receiving emails. Uh, yeah. I'm, I'm just curious to know your, your thoughts on burnout.

    30. OBOliver Burkeman57:52

        Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it? I mean, I do... I don't know. I sort of agree with what you said, but I'm not sure I wrote it in exactly those terms. But I think it's like burnout has a, a meaning component, right? So it's not like you, you... We all know, and hopefully have experienced times in our own work, where, like, you are, like, operating at the absolute extremes of your capacities, but because it is something that, like, totally lights your fire, it's not, it's not gonna lead to burnout because it's, it's, it, it's what you want to be doing. And you can... Yeah. I think, like, burnout is something that has this capa- component of, like, "Why am I doing this?" What it, like, "This is not... This is making my soul shrivel rather than expand," you know? Um, and I think AI, the problem is, like, okay, so AI can take some of those, um, tasks that we don't want to do off our plates, just as some people are in a position to have other humans take those tasks off their, off their plates. But if I understa- if I'm right about things like the efficiency trap, like this is not going to make you feel like your time is more abundant. It's gonna make you experience more pressure to do more of those things that only you can do. Now, maybe we're, some people claim we're only, we're, we're not very far away from there being nothing that only you can do. But as long as there is stuff, like, so the, the logic in your situation, I'm guessing, I, I don't have a podcast, but my, um, logic i- in your situation, I'm guessing, is that, like, the more post-production stuff that you can just sort of farm out to automation, and so it's like conversations with people that are the thing that you can do, like really, really specifically, the general market of podcasts will lead to you feeling incredibly pressured to put out far more of them or far longer ones or far deeper ones. You know? The, so the, whatever it is that you still do, in the same way that when you get better at sending emails, you get, receive more emails. When you get better at doing the human part of, of your work because other, other devices are doing the non, the things that they can do, there'll just be more and more felt pressure to, like, do more and more of that stuff, to a point where I suspect it leads to the same kind of burnout, right? Because the, the pressure is still there. Uh, the shorter way of saying the very long-winded thing I just said is I don't see anything about ways in which AI can make our lives and our days more efficient that makes it immune from that basic problem, that, like, the pursuit of efficiency, all else being equal, leads to greater overwhelm and busyness rather than a sense of abundant time.

16. 1:00:35 – 1:07:30

    Side hustles vs hobbies: protecting soul-nourishing, non-instrumental time

    1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:00:35

       What are your thoughts on side hustles and hobbies?

    2. OBOliver Burkeman1:00:41

       So, I mean, I, the, the, I've, the bit, the place where I've written something explicitly about this, mainly in Four Thousand Weeks, is this idea that, like, this is atelic activities again, right? A hobby is something you do because it's fun to do it. You might have certain goals, like, you know- ... collect all the stamps from a certain country [laughs] or whatever, right? But you're, but you're basically doing it 'cause it, it, you, it makes you feel good. Feels meaningful to do it. And then the side hustle obviously is, is very explicitly framed as something you're trying to make money from. I'm not against that in some sort of intrinsic way. Like, you should... If you've got a job, you shouldn't also do something else that is exciting and interesting and could make you rich one day. That's brilliant. But I think the ... We should be aware of what it is we lose when we think about turning hobbies into side hustles, right? When you think about trying to turn the thing that you enjoy doing outside of work into something that, that pays. Um, because, like, a little bit the example you gave, your partner and the PhD, uh, writing group and charging m- right, all that stuff. Obviously, if you're trying to get a PhD, that is also a, a professional goal, not a, not a hobby. But it's another example of the way in which, like, turning, making something instrumental, right? Taking from it from, like, this is what we're doing to let's do this so that we can do this other thing, has this problem of, of, of, um, sort of removing the, the, the value and the fulfilling-ness from it. And I think it's really interesting, th- as I wrote, right, that, that, like, hobbies are kind of cringe. I mean, I think this is changing actually since I wrote it, but, like, hobbies are still kind of a bit, like, embarrassing, and side hustles are very, like, cool and suggest that you've got lots of, um, ambition and vigor and energy. And I think that's interesting, 'cause there is something kind of countercultural and subversive about, like, just, like, doing some craft activity 'cause you really like doing that craft activity, and you don't expect anyone ever to pay you money for it. And I wonder whether that's why they've acquired this reputation as being a bit sort of like, what do you even do with your life if you're spending hours a week on a hobby that isn't even part of a, part of a business plan? Um, but I think lots of people who are doing it, what they're doing is having really fulfilling lives. [laughs]

    3. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:03:05

       I, I think I heard you on a show, and correct me if I'm not wrong, talking about how Sir Rod Stewart has-

    4. OBOliver Burkeman1:03:11

       Oh, yeah

    5. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:03:12

       ... a fascination with, like, model trains.

    6. OBOliver Burkeman1:03:14

       He's got a model train set. Yeah, he's got a huge model train layout. Um, and he's given interviews a few times to, like, Railway Modeler magazine, right? And they just get this amazing exclusive 'cause it's all about model railways. Yeah, he's got an extensive, uh, um, uh, what would you call it? I don't know. Yeah, an, an extensive layout, uh, based on sort of, um, historical Chicago and New York, I think. And apparently he took it on tour with him when he was more regularly touring than he is now, and, like, he'd book another hotel room for the, um, layout.

    7. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:03:50

       [laughs] That is-

    8. OBOliver Burkeman1:03:50

       Which, you know, given, given the stories about what rock stars get up to on tour-

    9. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:03:54

       [laughs]

    10. OBOliver Burkeman1:03:54

        ... and probably even Rod Stewart, it's, um, it's not that, um-

    11. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:03:58

        Maybe he was doing both at the same time. [laughs]

    12. OBOliver Burkeman1:03:59

        Right, right.

    13. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:04:00

        I have no idea. [laughs]

    14. OBOliver Burkeman1:04:00

        I mean, it's not, it's not... Exactly. It's not that edgy, is it? But I think what I so love about that story, right, is that, like, it's so not on message for the sort of personal brand of Rod Stewart that you've got to believe he really loves it. Like, you've got to believe that is a, i- in the whole of the other aspects of his personality, good or bad, whatever, like, there is something there that is just, like, super into model railways. Because you would not do that, um, to, uh, you know, to burnish your image as a kind of, uh, leather-trousered, raunchy rocker, right? It doesn't work. It doesn't fit. It's the, it's the wrong thing. And slightly meanly in Four Thousand Weeks, I sort of compared that with, like, Richard Branson kite surfing. I'm sure Richard Branson really enjoys kite surfing, but it is on message with his brand, right? It does go together. Those photos of him doing that kind of stuff sort of are good publicity photos for his enterprises. And so I think it's really interesting when you tell... When somebody, you find that somebody is doing something that just isn't on message, it's like, oh, right, that might be an activity that just, like, really nourishes their soul.

    15. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:05:07

        When I heard that on the, the podcast that you were on, I can't remember what show it was on, when I heard that, um, the first thing I thought was, "That's cute." [laughs]

    16. OBOliver Burkeman1:05:15

        Right.

    17. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:05:15

        Like-

    18. OBOliver Burkeman1:05:16

        It's sort of adorable, right?

    19. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:05:17

        Yeah. Like, why are hobbies cute?

    20. OBOliver Burkeman1:05:18

        Right, right, right. Right, exactly.

    21. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:05:20

        [laughs]

    22. OBOliver Burkeman1:05:20

        Exactly. Um, and I wrote too about, like, how I've got, like, I, uh, it's... Sometimes it can really help, uh, for these hobbies to be things you're not even that good at, right? 'Cause then there's no temptation about to, of turning it into something more. I actually think that Rod Stewart has said in these interviews that he's not particularly, like, skilled at painting. That he gets... I think he even hires other people to do bits of the-

    23. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:05:45

        [laughs]

    24. OBOliver Burkeman1:05:45

        ... bits of the layout, right? But it's like that's another sign of something that is sort of important like that. Playing the piano is like that for me. I really enjoy what I do hammering out, like, dodgy old piano rock tunes on the keyboard that we've got at home, preferably with headphones on so that other people aren't inconvenienced. But I am rubbish at it. And actually, although there's nothing wrong with having a hobby of wanting to be really good at a musical instrument, of course, there's something kind of good for me about this because, like, when it comes to writing, I really hope that I'm good at it. I want to stay good at it and get better at it. I want to be commercially successful at it. Like, it's quite a lot of pressure. No pressure at all when it comes to playing the piano, because nobody is ever going to pay me £1 to play the piano. I know. And that's-

    25. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:06:33

        Maybe £1 to stop. [laughs]

    26. OBOliver Burkeman1:06:34

        Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Uh, so that is why it's a sort of like, uh, it has a role in my life that is important for me because it's not... because I'm not gonna be good at it.

    27. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:06:45

        I really like that message. Spec- specifically, uh, and not to attribute this to, to gender, but, like, men, like, uh, I think all of my mates who I hang around with would never admit that they have a hobby.

    28. OBOliver Burkeman1:06:56

        Right.

    29. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:06:56

        They would always call it a side hustle.

    30. OBOliver Burkeman1:06:57

        Right. Yeah.
17. 1:07:30 – 1:10:45

    The core takeaway: do one meaningful thing next—without turning it into a life plan

    1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:07:30

       I'm thinking about if there were to be like a central, I guess, life task in Meditations for Mortals, like a single ask of the reader to take away or a next step for them to take away, what do you think that would be if there was one?

    2. OBOliver Burkeman1:07:44

       I mean, this is where I risk sounding sales pitchy and say like it's to read the book, but kind of it is because what I wanted to try to do in structuring this around 28 days of very short daily chapters was to, as I said at the beginning, right, like try to create a book that could be an active ingredient in that process rather than just something that like gave you some knowledge and then you maybe decided to... So, so one thing, it's not the only thing you can do at all, and I will say something else, but like the, the, the what I put into this book was an attempt to be like, you could actually kind of do this book. Like reading the... If it works, reading at least some of these chapters is going to like have a little perspective change that just naturally leads to a slight difference in how you go through that next 24 hours. Um, a little bit more aware of what it means to be limited and to be facing choices with time and, and to be, um, prone to wanting to control your life more than you usefully can and, and all the rest of it. Not necessarily a big lightning strike insight transformation, right? But just that bit where it just gets under your skin and makes a difference. Uh, besides that, I think like the kind of question, not, I'm not saying you asked this, but I've been asked questions in the past where I know that what somebody's wanting is like, "Here's the daily practice that you should do," right? "Here's the 10 minutes a day thing that if you do this every day, you'll be well on the way to, to success." And I always resist that. Like I always wanna say the one thing you should do is you should think for a moment, take a breath, think about something that you know you want to have in your life, in a meaningful life. You know, something that you've been putting off, some project you wanna get started on, some relationship or friendship you want to get better at nurturing, some place you like to be, um, in your town or city. You know, something that you already know is a component of the meaningful life. Not like the most important thing, 'cause that's optimization stuff again, right? But just like something. And like do something related to that thing. Like no, but actually do it, like now. Like when you finish watching this or listening to this, go and, go and do it. Or if it's late at night, do it tomorrow. But like not, "Oh yes, that's a very good idea. I'll make it part of my life plan." It's the actually doing it. Can you send a message to a friend that you've been meaning, who you've been meaning to be in touch with even though you're kind of tired and it feels like it wouldn't be the best message ever? Can you make the call that is relevant to the business project you wanna move forward even though you've been thinking like, "I'm gonna wait till I've really got my ducks in a row and know what it is"? Um, just something like that, right? One thing. Not one thing you're gonna do every single day for the rest of your life, not one thing you're gonna do perfectly, but just one thing and like actually do it. That's the thing that's made the biggest difference to me, so that's what I pass on to other people.

    3. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:10:44

       Oliver Burkeman, everyone.

Episode duration: 1:10:46