Peter Attia MD168 - Hugh Jackman: Reflections on acting, identity, personal transformation, and being Wolverine
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
130 min read · 26,169 words- 0:00 – 0:10
Intro
- PADr. Peter Attia
[upbeat music] Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Drive podcast. I'm your host, Peter Attia. [upbeat music]
- 0:10 – 7:41
Hugh’s voracious curiosity and early years of his acting career;
- PADr. Peter Attia
Hugh, it's so awesome to have you here today, although I do wish we were doing this in person. We've been talking about-
- HJHugh Jackman
Me too.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Yeah. We've been saying, "Well, well, let's wait and do this in person, let's wait and do this in person," but between all that's going on, I think this is the next best thing.
- HJHugh Jackman
Yeah.
- PADr. Peter Attia
So.
- HJHugh Jackman
I mean, the best part of in person, I know, I know the conversation is great, but the cooking is off the charts.
- PADr. Peter Attia
[laughs]
- HJHugh Jackman
Your cooking, you and Jill combined do, like, a crazy good dinner. There's another whole avenue there for you.
- PADr. Peter Attia
I don't know. I still think some of the meals I've had at your place have, have blown my mind even more, espec-
- HJHugh Jackman
[laughs]
- PADr. Peter Attia
And including the meals I haven't had. Do you remember the day I came over to your place? I think I was on day six out of seven on a fast.
- HJHugh Jackman
Yes, yes.
- PADr. Peter Attia
And, and you and Deb really, really thought you were gonna get me to cave, and I, instead I just walked around the kitchen-
- HJHugh Jackman
Nearly
- PADr. Peter Attia
... smelling it and, and regretting.
- HJHugh Jackman
I respected that.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Yeah.
- HJHugh Jackman
Yeah, but I can't really take any credit for the meals at my house. You can take the credit for the ones at yours.
- PADr. Peter Attia
[laughs]
- HJHugh Jackman
I mean, right down to sourcing the food, I'm impressed. Very impressed.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Yes. Yeah, well, I know you appreciated that. Um, actually, that, that, that, that's sort of an... I wanna come back to that, 'cause there's an interesting story about th- that, that, uh, some, some of those meals. But this is kind of a different podcast for us. We've talked about this a lot, and we thought that what would be fun today, um, is not just that I'm interviewing you, but in some ways that you're interviewing me, and I think that's in part because you're the most curious person I know.
- HJHugh Jackman
Mm.
- PADr. Peter Attia
And that's evident any time you are sitting down with anyone. Uh, I've watched you interact with so many different people. E- even just in the few minutes before we were getting this podcast recording when you were talking to Nick, um, you're just immediately obsessed with and interested in every detail of what another person knows and how they've come to know it and stuff like that. And so I think in the past couple of months as we were thinking about this, it became clear there was no way I was gonna be able to get away with just interviewing you, because you were gonna end up asking me a bunch of questions anyway.
- HJHugh Jackman
[laughs]
- PADr. Peter Attia
So we said, "Well, why don't we just acknowledge that this is gonna be a discussion and not an interview?"
- HJHugh Jackman
Yeah. No, I, uh, it's my favorite way to do it anyway. I, I often in interviews, no matter what, and I've done a lot, I always try to ask questions, 'cause I get bored of talking about myself anyway. And if you think about my job, my job is human nature, like observing it. I- i- if you're an actor and you're not curious about people, it's gonna be a real struggle.
- PADr. Peter Attia
So I, I do wanna start with this idea of... 'Cause it's actually something Olivia asked me yesterday. You know, I said, "Hey, you know, Olivia, I'm talking to Hugh tomorrow," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she's, because, you know, she's very interested in music, and she said, "Can, will you ask him a question for me?" I said, "Sure." She said, "When did he know he was good enough that he could make it in his chosen profession?"
- HJHugh Jackman
Hmm.
- PADr. Peter Attia
And I said, "I don't know. That's a good... Let me, let me ask him that."
- HJHugh Jackman
I think when, when I got cast and I got the job at the Royal National Theatre in London, so I'm, I, I, I'm now 28. I've studied for four years. At college you certainly don't know that. I mean, the stats on college, and I went to probably one of the top two colleges in Australia, three-year full-time program, the stats are maybe 5% actually make a living from that.
- 7:41 – 18:00
Self-identity, overworking, and the importance of living well;
- HJHugh Jackman
Um, what about you? You are one of the most, this is, I'd written down some questions. This is not one of them. But you're obviously one of the most successful doctors, uh, in the world, and listen to podcast, you know. When was the moment where you knew that you could look after some of the most demanding high-achieving people on the planet?
- PADr. Peter Attia
You know, that's tough. I, I don't, uh, probably the same way that you would say it, it's, it's not entirely clear. I don't, I don't think that I... I don't feel like I've got to some point where, yes, I can do this and, and, and everything. I think there's a, there's a constant sense of am I doing enough? Am I learning enough? What am I missing? What am I forgetting? What could I be doing better? How can we make this process better? Um, but I, what I think I can say is it was probably in the, it was probably about a year ago that I stopped feeling like an imposter. So, so that was a big transition, right? That was a big step forward, which is, um, there was this sort of lingering feeling of what if you're, what if you're just nowhere near as good as people think you are?
- HJHugh Jackman
Right.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Um, and I think I'm over that now, which is-
- HJHugh Jackman
Only a year ago
- PADr. Peter Attia
... yeah, only a year ago.
- HJHugh Jackman
Only a year ago.
- PADr. Peter Attia
To get to the point of it's okay, nobody is perfect. Um, and don't, you know, you're not representing yourself to be all-knowing, um, and you're not an imposter.
- HJHugh Jackman
Was that the drip, drip, drip of achievement, or was there a crystallizing moment?
- PADr. Peter Attia
Yeah, that was, that was a lot of therapy, actually.
- HJHugh Jackman
Right.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Yeah, that was learned on the couch, not, not at... So that actually became... Th- that was a big challenge to my identity, I think. That was also recognizing, like, how much of identity is wrapped up in what you do versus who you are. Um, and I, and I think so part of it was, like, kind of releasing, uh, uh, my identity being involved in my work.
- HJHugh Jackman
Wow.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Which is an ongoing struggle, right?
- HJHugh Jackman
How do you remind yourself of that? Do you have a way of-
- PADr. Peter Attia
Uh
- HJHugh Jackman
... reminding yourself?
- PADr. Peter Attia
Yeah, I think honestly, like, kids are probably the best part of... Kids are a great reminder of that, which I know we're gonna talk about a lot. But I think a lot of the things I do are, have the potential to warp my head around my identity. Uh, so exercise, you know, driving a race car, shooting my bow and arrow, medicine, all of those things have the potential if I'm not diligent to consume me in a way that also, um, sort of determines my self-worth.
- HJHugh Jackman
Right.
- PADr. Peter Attia
But if I anchor to my eulogy and not my resume, which is sort of my, um, I think I've shared this with you, but that's, that's kind of like my mission statement in life is make your eulogy better than your resume. Um, then I just say, look, um, the, these people here, these little people, these, these kids are the ones that are gonna matter at my eulogy. So sometimes I'll come in the house after shooting really poorly, and I'll see my little boys running around, and, uh, it's just much easier to now dismiss the thoughts of how frustrating it is that I can't shoot that well today when I sort of see them playing and realize, well, if I play with them, they don't even know the difference. And I think that's true of medicine as well.
- HJHugh Jackman
Right. Uh, so brilliantly articulated. L- I just need to drill down on, you said, "Am I doing enough?" I, I completely relate to this. I'm, I'm an overworker. The job for me is what do I really want to achieve and how can I do it with less? Because, uh, I think insecurity has led me to overwork, and that, I'm, I, I guess I'm asking you that question, the am I doing enough, which certainly helped get you and I to where we are today, right? Because we probably did work harder than other people. We never stopped, but it's clearly not [laughs] actually not a disciplined recipe for wellness or happiness or being a good husband or a good father, right? [laughs] Um, how have you made that ch- transition?
- PADr. Peter Attia
Very, very slowly.
- HJHugh Jackman
Do you worry that you won't be good enough if you don't worry about being good enough?
- PADr. Peter Attia
You know, this is something I, I've spoken at length with Esther Perel, who's someone you know well and, and, uh-
- HJHugh Jackman
Yes
- PADr. Peter Attia
... have come to respect greatly. Um-
- HJHugh Jackman
Yeah
- PADr. Peter Attia
... when I wrote out My recovery contract a year ago, a little over a year ago, um, this was a very important part of that recovery contract, which was, um, being able to, on a daily basis, journal about the trade-off that you describe. Which is, if you start to prioritize your eulogy over your resume, you will make deliberate trade-offs that may sacrifice your performance in the short run. And you have to be able to accept that, and you have to be able to write about that in a sort of dialectical way, which is, it is okay to say goodbye to an opportunity today in exchange for something that you value more in the long run. Um, and it's, and, and it's okay to acknowledge that, I think was her point, right? In, in other words, don't just-
- HJHugh Jackman
Yeah
- PADr. Peter Attia
... sort of, don't just, just, just sort of shove it under the rug and say, "Well, I'm just, you know, I'm gonna be much more focused on my family and less focused on my craft," and act like that doesn't matter. No, that's a very deliberate trade-off, and it's okay to-
- 18:00 – 28:22
Handling criticism and letting go of the desire to please everyone;
- PADr. Peter Attia
there.
- HJHugh Jackman
Yeah. Well, I imagine, like, I, I was thinking when I, you know, when I was asking you, I said we have stuff in common, but it is different for actors. I mean, in some ways, every time I do a job, you're open to criticism from critics or people or bloggers, whatever. But I a- actually feel The internal pressure from your industry, other doctors, academics, is more brutal, in fact. I, like, if I do a job, Leonardo DiCaprio doesn't write an op-ed and go, "You know what? This guy is the worst. He's..." Like, your fellow actors might bitch about you [laughs] behind closed doors, but you, your fellow actors are not getting out there trashing you. Whereas I think that's a real thing. Uh, tell me if I'm wrong, but in the medical industry there is a-
- PADr. Peter Attia
Yeah, but I, I-
- HJHugh Jackman
... it's much tougher, and I'm sure-
- PADr. Peter Attia
... I think it's tougher for you
- HJHugh Jackman
... sharing your feelings-
- PADr. Peter Attia
I think it's tougher for you
- HJHugh Jackman
... there would be a, there'd be pe- what?
- PADr. Peter Attia
No, you're on a much bigger stage. You're on a much bigger stage, and you, I don't think in the history of ... Y- y- what, what are you, what's, what performance are you most proud of on the screen?
- HJHugh Jackman
Hmm. There's elements of The Fountain. There, it's, I'm gonna say elements. I'm super proud of Les Mis. That, that was some really frightening stuff for me and elemental stuff. Logan-
- PADr. Peter Attia
Mm
- HJHugh Jackman
... 'cause I knew that was a 17-year journey to get to that. Um, there are moments in Prisoners, in, um, just moments in The Prestige, the first movie I ever did which no one has ever seen called Erskineville Kings, which we shot in three weeks. First time I did a movie. Um, I actually am proud of a lot of the stuff in The Front Runner-
- PADr. Peter Attia
Mm-hmm
- HJHugh Jackman
... which, you know, it didn't come and go, but it, it didn't quite land in the way I, I guess we all hoped. Um, it's sort of, it's moments. I very rarely kind of come away from a film without criticism, personal criticism.
- PADr. Peter Attia
That's my point, right? Is, is y- there's, no matter how great a job you do, there's always someone, given the stage you're on, that's going to say something that is, represents a total lack of understanding of what's, what actually took place. And-
- HJHugh Jackman
Hmm
- PADr. Peter Attia
... um, uh, so, so in that sense, I think that, I think the criticism that a, that a, that an actor or an athlete, a professional athlete or a, a politician, and, and look, in our culture today politician's a dirty word, but I, I, I gotta believe there are some of them that are still good. [laughs]
- HJHugh Jackman
[laughs] Of course.
- PADr. Peter Attia
And, and, and so, you know, think about a job where a f- a 60% approval rating is amazing. Like, that, if you're a, if you're a politician, a 60% approval rating means you're exceptional, and that means 40% of people can't stand you. Um, s-
- HJHugh Jackman
Right
- PADr. Peter Attia
... speaking of approval ratings, I love this statistic.
- HJHugh Jackman
Yeah.
- PADr. Peter Attia
You know these Q ratings, right?
- HJHugh Jackman
Yeah, right. Yeah.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Do you, do you know that you have the highest Q rating in Australia? Your Q rating, which is a measure of popularity and likability, is 99%.
- HJHugh Jackman
[laughs]
- PADr. Peter Attia
And I think the next person after you is 67%.
- HJHugh Jackman
Yeah. It's a, I, I, I, a friend of mine who runs Foxtel, which is, like, a big sort of cable network in Australia, and he did come from marketing originally and PR, but anyway, he rang me and he, he told me this. Why did he tell me? I think I was gonna do something like a commercial for something. He goes ... And so the Q rating is more around if you're gonna endorse a product.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Yeah. How, how much do you trust this person?
- HJHugh Jackman
Exactly.
- 28:22 – 32:05
Dismissing vitriol on social media, and the challenge of communicating science;
- PADr. Peter Attia
Yeah, I mean, Jill, well, it's funny. So Jill really has enormous disdain for social media, which is really the place where people are gonna attack you the most. Uh-
- HJHugh Jackman
Right
- PADr. Peter Attia
... you know, for example, you know, recently I put out a number of podcasts, um, that, that dealt with vaccines, vaccine science, and sort of the, a lot of the misinformation around this. And, you know, not surprisingly, you're gonna get a very small vocal minority of people who are just going to attack you over this kind of stuff, um, and do so in a very personal way. You know, not, you know, almost, it's almost impossible for these people to say, "You know, this is your interesting take on the science, but have you ever considered such and such?" No, no. It's usually like, "You're in the pockets of pharma. You, you know, you're an idiot."
- HJHugh Jackman
Right.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Uh, literally I had one person-
- HJHugh Jackman
Right
- PADr. Peter Attia
... compare me to Adolf Hitler, um-
- HJHugh Jackman
Wow
- PADr. Peter Attia
... and say that what you're doing is propagating so much lies that are gonna hurt so many people that, uh, you know, you know, this is like Hitler killing Jews. So w- when you have this type of vitriol, um, coming at you, Jill's view is, "Why do you even do this?" Like, "Why-
- HJHugh Jackman
Right
- PADr. Peter Attia
... in the world do you do this? Why would you ever h- you know, have a single account on social media that even gives people an opportunity to comment?" Um-
- HJHugh Jackman
What's your answer?
- PADr. Peter Attia
It's that, look, I don't really look at these things that much, frankly. It's very rare that I look at them, and it's even rarer that I would respond. Maybe once every six months I have a lapse in judgment and I'll actually respond to someone like that trying to clarify something and I, I'm-
- HJHugh Jackman
Right
- PADr. Peter Attia
... I'm O for 20 on ever changing anybody's mind [laughs] who's in that stage. So you'd think after, like, the first 10-
- HJHugh Jackman
[laughs]
- PADr. Peter Attia
... I would've learned, like, when someone comes at you with that, like, they, you can't talk rationally with them. Um, Joe Rogan gave me really, really great advice a few months ago after a particularly awful, uh, attack. He said, 'cause I said, "Joe, how do you cope with this? Like, how in the world do you... 'Cause you must be, you know, you're such a polarizing figure," and he just said, "Post and ghost. Post and ghost." Whenever he puts something up he never, ever, ever looks at a single comment. Um-
- HJHugh Jackman
Right
- PADr. Peter Attia
... so, um, you know, in, in some ways that's our analog, I think.
- HJHugh Jackman
Yeah. But in the end, I guess you're doing it because, uh, I, I, I can't imagine you... Do you care about those people who are saying you're Adolf Hitler? It's like it's so-
- PADr. Peter Attia
No, I mean, when someone says something so ridiculous, it, it-
- HJHugh Jackman
Right
- PADr. Peter Attia
... that, that just doesn't phase me. I think what does bother me though, truthfully, is that I know that a lot of the people who have really warped views about science will suffer for those views. Like, science is a hard topic, and I think scientists have not always done a good job explaining it, and I think that people-
- HJHugh Jackman
Mm-hmm
- PADr. Peter Attia
... do sometimes pay a price for this. And so I think in some ways I just, I have empathy for people who are, I think, being misled. Um-
- HJHugh Jackman
Yeah
- PADr. Peter Attia
... and, and obviously I have, you know, incredible empathy for, for parents, you know, of, of, of kids with autism who think, "You know, this vaccine did this to my child," even though there's not a shred of evidence to suggest that. But, but it's, I understand. Of course, you want to have someone to blame for this. And-
- HJHugh Jackman
Yeah
- PADr. Peter Attia
... um, so I think if anything, I just want to be able to, to, to offer those people, you know, some hope that says, "Hey, you, you didn't do this to your child." Um-
- HJHugh Jackman
Right
- 32:05 – 42:03
Going with your gut and the value in finding the right partner;
- HJHugh Jackman
I think that's why your book is a bit of a game changer for me in that it's incredibly humanizing. I think a lot of people feel with medical stuff or with doctors, they want confidence. They want to feel like what they're getting is the right answer because, um, I don't know. I don't, haven't done any science. I don't know. Should I take this pill or that pill? So you want that confidence, but sometimes that can come across as arrogance, I guess-
- PADr. Peter Attia
Mm-hmm
- HJHugh Jackman
... from some doctors and, and then people want to question it and lump it in with some kind of government conspiracy. I don't really understand that. But your book, I think, will go a long way to just humanizing it and saying, "Hey, I can be wrong, by the way, and I've been wrong, and here's how I've been wrong, and, and here's what I've learned from it. But, you know, I've done a lot of work on this, and this is, you know, this is the way forward." I, I, I want to kind of ask you something about, I've never asked you this before, but you live in a world of, of data in many ways, right? And you, you clearly kind of love data. I think you, you love the puzzle of it-
- PADr. Peter Attia
Mm-hmm
- HJHugh Jackman
... and math, and I've, I've, you know, you've helped me out some things where I can... You, you love solving. "Hmm, I want to do it this way," and mo- which has amazed me. Have you ever gone against the data with your gut? Like, your gut's just said, "Hmm, he really should stand on his left foot and turn around four times," and there's zero data on it, or the data might say, "This is ridiculous." Have you ever, ever gone with your gut instead of the data?
- PADr. Peter Attia
Hmm. I'm sure I have at times. Um, hmm. Uh, uh, this is a ridiculous example, but probably the best example of my life, um, choosing to marry Jill, right?
- HJHugh Jackman
Huh.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Like, if, if, um, I remember, you know, we were dating when I was in residency and, um, it was... I, I just didn't think... I, I, I was, I was, uh, I just at the time was so focused on my work and I just wanted to be the best surgeon in the world. I mean, I was so maniacally driven, Hugh, and how she even put up with me, I'll never understand. Like, every, you know, so we're already working 110 to 120 hours a week in this hospital, and when I would get out of the hospital, I only had two priorities, exercise and more practicing and reading. So I would have to read. I, I made a, a commitment to read, I don't remember exactly what it was, but, you know, something like 15 pages a day out of surgical textbooks. I ended up spending a few years summarizing, um, the top shelf of my bookcase, which was, I forget, I think it was, like, s- 17,000 words of surgical text into 150 pages, and then I also would practice doing these very delicate anastomoses every night with my surgical instruments in these models that I had built. And so when we were dating, like, even before we would go out for dinner, I would have to do these things, and she'd be sitting there twiddling her thumbs, sitting on my bed while I'd be doing these things, and then I'd even make her come over and inspect it. I'd be like, you know, "Put the magnifying loops on and look at that. Do you think that's perfect? Is that, you know, could that..." And we, it became a joke. Um, but-
- HJHugh Jackman
[laughs]
- PADr. Peter Attia
... but really I was like... And, and even she had sort of, like, this thought of, like, you know, "This is a guy who will never put me first," right? "He will always put his work first." And-
- HJHugh Jackman
Did she articulate that to you then?
- PADr. Peter Attia
Uh, not at, not then, but later on.
- HJHugh Jackman
Right.
- PADr. Peter Attia
This is actually a very personal story, but, uh, uh, which [laughs] I, I guess I'm sharing now. But, um, we, we, the week before our wedding real- we really collectively had second thoughts. Um, and, and, and we sat outside, I remember exactly where we were, and thought, "Maybe we shouldn't do this," you know? "Maybe I'm just not the kind of guy who's ever going to want to be married," and, and that's that. And, and I guess you could argue that was sort of the data talking to me. The data was saying, "Hey, you know, surgeons have a divorce rate of, you know-
- HJHugh Jackman
Right
- PADr. Peter Attia
... X," and-
- HJHugh Jackman
Did, did you initiate this talk or did Jill?
- PADr. Peter Attia
Yes. I did. No, it was 100% me. Um, and then something in my gut just overrode that, and by the end of that day, I, I, I decided that no, there's something here that I don't yet understand, and it's gonna be more important. And I will say, and- You know, you now know how my life has turned out. It, it turned out to be the most important decision I've ever made because-
- HJHugh Jackman
Hmm
- PADr. Peter Attia
... I don't think I'd be doing what I'm doing without Jill. In other words, when I think of all of my, um, all of the, all of the, the, the difficult things that have come in my life, having her as the base of my support-
- HJHugh Jackman
Hmm
- PADr. Peter Attia
... has been the most important thing, and it's-
- HJHugh Jackman
Hmm
- PADr. Peter Attia
... uh, she is a unique person. Uh, everybody would say that about their spouse, I suspect, but it, so, so it's, it's, it's that she's the right person for me, right? She-
- HJHugh Jackman
Yeah. [laughs]
- PADr. Peter Attia
She, she is the right person for me, and that would not have been apparent from any amount of data, but I do think my gut probably sensed that. Sensed an ability, uh, uh, for, for an unconditional love that probably even transcends what most spouses could provide.
- HJHugh Jackman
Yeah. I mean, it's clear from the outside that you were meant to be together. Again, that's a gut feeling you get. I, actually, I have a, a, a little bit of a similar story at the beginning of my relationship with Deb, who is down the... Deb, are you okay if I tell the story about you at the restaurant? Remember the story of you in the restaurant early on talking to someone else, and I'm like, "Oh, she wants to break up with me"? Remember that story? Okay. You okay with that? All right. Um, so early, it's two or three weeks in, but I, I just had this feeling two weeks in. And now Deb and I met on a television series.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Mm-hmm.
- HJHugh Jackman
She's the star, and it is my first job. So w- we started dating two or three months into it, but I, both of us, it's an un- like you never date your co-star. That's the biggest cliche. It kills the series. The whole series was about this kind of sexual tension between, in the prison between the psych- psychologist played by Deb and the prisoner, me. So e- everything was wrong about it. It, th- anyway, getting through that, we get together, we're there and so happy, and I'm falling in love, and I am just like, "This, I've never felt like this before." This, I didn't really know it could be like, I didn't know that there were human beings like Deb on the planet. I didn't know. And I was super happy being single, first job out of drama school, 26, happy days. And we go out, two or three weeks in, never spent a night apart. We go out to dinner. I, I wanna say there was 14 people at the dinner. I sit down sort of on one corner, and Deb sits in the literal opposite corner on the other side. And I'm like, "Fine, you know, whatever. Like, that's okay." Um, and at one point I was telling a story, and the whole table was listening to my story or joke, I can't remember what it was. But I remember looking down, and Deb had her back turned to me talking to someone next to her. So apart from Deb and that person, everyone's listening to me, and the thought just came into my head or more in my gut, "Oh, she's trying to break up, she's trying to break up with me." And that stayed with me for the dinner, and when we get in the car, I just knew it. And I said, and this is not me at all. The, the me up until that point was, if I'm getting the data that someone wants to break up with me, I'm out first.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Mm-hmm.
- 42:03 – 48:57
A hard decision that lead to a turning point a turning point in Hugh’s life;
- PADr. Peter Attia
Do you, do you have any other moments like that? I, I, um, [laughs] when I grew up in Canada, there was this sports network called TSN, The Sports Network, and every night they would show a highlight called the TSN Turning Point, where they would pick one game, and there was one play in one game that totally changed the game. And so I've always had in my back of my mind this idea of, like, your, the TSN turning points of your life, and that was obviously one of them for you, right? That's a very important decision. Had you fallen into your default state, which is-
- HJHugh Jackman
Right
- PADr. Peter Attia
... to run-
- HJHugh Jackman
Run
- PADr. Peter Attia
... totally different life. What are some other moments that you've made enormous, uh, may- maybe at the time they didn't feel like enormous decisions, but they totally changed the arc of your life, whether it be personally or professionally?
- HJHugh Jackman
Yeah. Uh, I'll tell you a little one, which is, I just wanna tell you this because it's a little freaky. And I think it goes back to I was brought up in a very religious household. My father was converted to Christianity by Billy Graham, so we lived that sort of life very much. Every holiday was church, this, and I remember praying every single night for most of my childhood through till 15, 16 that, "God, ju- just tell me, make it clear to me what you want me to do. That's all I ask. I actually do not care what it is. Any- it could be anything, but I wanna know that I'm on that path." The idea that is in Christianity that I was taught was there is God's will. It's a narrow path. It's easy to go off it, and most of the world will distract you from it, but stick with it. So I went and auditioned for a drama school after I'd done a degree, uh, majored in journalism, and before I went off to do that career, I thought, "I'm gonna audition for this drama school," because long story, but I'd spent time doing a play and just loved it, and it was clear to me I loved it more than I did my degree. So I went and auditioned, and I got in, and that's a long story. I just got in. I was on a waiting list and-
- PADr. Peter Attia
But had, had you, had you acted before? Had you done any acting before?
- HJHugh Jackman
Amateur. Only amateur. So I did amateur all through school.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Okay.
- HJHugh Jackman
Even at college, I was in local community plays, and I did a play a- at college, uh, in my last semester, which made me realize I was spending way more time on the play than my thesis and everything. So I thought, "Something's off here. I, I might just spend a year while I'm waiting, I'll do this course." And I found this course, um, that was in Sydney. I wanted to do a course in England, but I couldn't afford it, so I wanted to do this one in Sydney, and I got in. And I opened up the... I remember opening up the letter, and it said, "You're accepted," and I was so happy. And at the bottom it said, "Please make payable your check for the tuition of three and a half thousand dollars." Now, that's not gonna sound like a lot of money, but in Australia when I was growing up, you didn't pay for tertiary education. So university was free.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Yep.
- HJHugh Jackman
It's now not quite like that, but I was like, I hadn't even thought of it, and I'd just finished a degree. My dad had helped me, and I was like, "Three and a half grand? I don't have three and a half. Ah, whatever." I screwed it up. I put it in the trash. And so I thought, "Oh, well, there goes that. They're not meant to be." And it's gonna sound like an exaggeration, I swear to you it's not. My grandmother had died three months before, and the bequest came to me the following day and a check for three and a half thousand dollars.
- PADr. Peter Attia
[laughs]
- HJHugh Jackman
And I'm literally fishing through my trash can, which of course I never emptied anyway, so it was there, [laughs] right? And at that time, I wasn't as, as sort of maniacally into Christianity that way, but I was like, "Oh, that's just super clear." So that's, that's sort of a TSN moment, but not really of my own doing in a way. Um, but then I, at the end of that year, I was offered... I, I, I got an audition for Neighbors, which is a soap opera, but it was like a 7:00 at night. Um, Beverly Hills 90210.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Yeah, yeah.
- HJHugh Jackman
Melrose Place.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Mm-hmm.
- HJHugh Jackman
It was a massive show in Australia. Huge in England. I mean, the amount of people who've come from it, uh, is, a- as actors that you would know is extraordinary. I got offered a role. It was a... It sort of came out of the blue. I auditioned, and I got it, and all of a sudden I'm like, "Oh, my God, I'm, I've got a role." And I remember the contract is $2,000 a week. I'm like, "$2,000? What am I gonna do with $2,000? This is unbelievable. Two-year contract. I- this is crazy." But I was in the middle of auditioning for a major drama school. I auditioned. It went well. I got a call back. I went again. The contract hadn't come through for Neighbors, so I just kept sort of auditioning. And long story short, I got offered a spot, and I had a weekend where I had to decide. And I remember I had an agent back then who was begging me, like going, "What are you doing or thinking? You must... What are you talking about? This is Neighbors. This is a job. You must do it." And I went to my dad, who I, as I've told you before, he wasn't really in the business of giving advice. And I said, "Dad, I just don't know what to do. I see both sides. I don't know what I should do." Like, my agent's saying, "Go and do the thing, earn the money, and go off and study. You'll have money, and you'll have experience. You'll be in front of a camera and then keep studying." And I said, "But, Dad, I just don't trust myself once I start working that I'm gonna do the training, and I don't feel I deserve an audition at the Royal Shakespeare Company," which is where I wanna work, or the National Theatre. I have... And I don't think working on... Anyway, I'm blah, blah, blah, doing all this, and I remember he said to me, he goes, "Hugh, I can't answer that for you."
- PADr. Peter Attia
Wow.
- HJHugh Jackman
"That's a decision you have to make. You're 22-"
- PADr. Peter Attia
Mm.
- HJHugh Jackman
"... and this is your choice." "Great. Thanks, Dad." I was like, "Ugh," and I went off. I just thought, "I'll just put it away. Don't think about it." By the next day, it was just clear to me. That idea of I wanna work at the Royal Shakespeare Company. I... When am I gonna get the training that makes me feel I deserve to audition for that? A bit like you. You wanna be a great surgeon. You didn't wanna just, "Oh, I'm gonna work in that, that little place down there. I've got the job. At least I can do that kind of work." You know? No, I wanted to have the opportunity to do everything. So in the end, I decided, and I went to my dad and I said, "Dad, I've decided to go and go to drama school and not do the job." And he goes, "Oh, thank God."
- PADr. Peter Attia
[laughs]
- HJHugh Jackman
"Oh, I'm so happy." I said, "What?" I said, [laughs] "You knew all the time?" He goes, "Yes, but I just, if I made the choice for you, then I would have denied you that moment of maturing and growing, and it would have forever been, 'Dad told me.'" And I, I remember that to this day, but that, that was one of those great TSN moments for me at turning
- 48:57 – 1:01:46
How driven personalities often develop from a place of trauma, and how to avoid going from productive to destructive;
- HJHugh Jackman
points.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Your relationship with your dad is, is, is kind of amazing. Um, how old were you when your mom left?
- HJHugh Jackman
I was eight. So I was eight when mom left, um, but she had been unwell. First year and a half of my life, uh, I'd spent with my godparents. So I, I think mom went into hospital when I was about, with postnatal depression, major, when I was about three months old. She went into hospital, so I was with my godparents for the, for that period. Then I came back, and I remember periods where mom would be just going away for a week, which I guess was some kind of reset or maybe, I, I actually don't know if it was, like, a, an official sort of facility or rehab or just getting away. There w- by the way, five kids, you know?
- PADr. Peter Attia
Yes. And you're the fifth, right?
- HJHugh Jackman
Five kids.
- PADr. Peter Attia
You're the youngest.
- HJHugh Jackman
I'm the fifth.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Yeah.
- HJHugh Jackman
Yeah. I'm the youngest. So, uh, yeah, so when I was eight she left. I don't think she ever planned, in fact I know she didn't, she told me she didn't plan to leave for good and it just sort of did, and she wasn't in a great place and, and her mom was not well, so she went back to look after her mom in England. And so I did... So my dad from when I was eight, my oldest sister I think was 15 or 16, so he brought up, you know, from those ages, he brought up all of us. He's sort of an amazing man in that way. It's like if you think about what that decade must have been like, he, I don't think he had a moment to himself for 10 years. I don't ever remember. Like, there was sometimes he used to, he was an accountant at Pricewaterhouse and he used to travel for work, and I actually remember, now I know with travel when I had young kids, like, just the first two days when you travel when you have young kids is the greatest thing. When, when you go somewhere and the people there, you wanna go out and go, "Shut up. No."
- PADr. Peter Attia
[laughs]
- HJHugh Jackman
I want close the curtains. I want to go to bed at eight o'clock.
- PADr. Peter Attia
[laughs]
- HJHugh Jackman
I want to sleep and then I want to wake up and I want to read the entire newspaper-
- PADr. Peter Attia
[laughs]
- HJHugh Jackman
... from front to back or the other way around, and I want to drink coffee. I don't want to talk to anybody, [laughs] you know? But he had an incredible, incredible time that, that, that decade. I, in, in many ways I learned many of my, I guess, ethics, hard work from him for sure.
- PADr. Peter Attia
How much do you think that your mom's departure impacted this perfectionism and this insatiable probable desire to sort of please people? Um, d- do-
- HJHugh Jackman
Mm
- PADr. Peter Attia
... you feel that that was either conscious or subconscious?
- HJHugh Jackman
Subconscious for sure. Um, it certainly rocked my world. As you can imagine, I was eight, but I remember people thinking, "Oh, you don't really under-" I remember them saying it, it doesn't real- I, I'm like, I totally understand. [laughs] Like, I think we underestimate eight-year-olds-
- PADr. Peter Attia
Absolutely
- HJHugh Jackman
... or eight-year-olds. And also I have older brothers and sisters, so I certainly have learned after that more about the dynamics of the relationship. But I was never, and I can't say this for all my siblings, I don't want to speak for them, but I don't ever remember being super angry with mom. And I, I, on some level I always had a kind of connection to her and a sort of understanding that she loved me, that she had done her best. Like, on some level I think I always felt that, but it was certainly a hole for sure, and I had a lot of fear that got exacerbated from that. Sort of, I guess you'd call it anxiety now. I didn't at the time, just scared of lots of things. And I guess that unknowing, I, I can rationalize it now that that perfectionism in me is, uh, you gotta work really hard to make sure people don't leave, right? You gotta really, [laughs] you gotta be at your best. And, and it's interesting, I just finished watching that great documentary by Ken Burns-
- PADr. Peter Attia
Mm-hmm
- HJHugh Jackman
... and, uh, Lynn, is it Novick? No- No- Lynn Novick?
- PADr. Peter Attia
I think so, yeah.
- HJHugh Jackman
I always get her last name wrong. It's called College Behind Bars, and it's about the Bard Prison, Bard Prison Initiative about just... Anyway, it's, it's an amazing doco. If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it. And I actually, and it's not lost on me, my first job was in a prison playing a prisoner. It's just feels to me very similar dynamic, like when you have some kind of abandonment or a hole, my way of coping with that was I'm gonna make sure that I please every, that no one's gonna wanna leave me behind. E- ever. Like, that's not gonna be... I, I, I'll work whatever you want me to do. I'll work hard. I'll do this. That, in that way I think it's really, I, I think it's sort of the opposite in some ways of people who end up being rebellious. By the way, my, my next brother up was really rebellious and all of that, and I was the opposite. I would, I would do all the things my brother did, but I never wanted anyone to find out. I just wanted to stay in, in the good graces of, of everybody and that's, that's how it impacted me.
- PADr. Peter Attia
That, that is such an amazing topic to explore. As you know, our, our mutual friend Paul Conti, um-
- HJHugh Jackman
Mm-hmm
- PADr. Peter Attia
... who's really one of the most thoughtful people when it comes to understanding trauma and, and, and certainly your mom leaving when you're eight, if, if that's not trauma, I, I'm not sure what is. But one of the things that's so interesting in, in talking with Paul is kind of the, the ways that two people in the same household even could have different adaptations to the same trauma. Um, and, and so one-
- HJHugh Jackman
Right
- PADr. Peter Attia
... could, one could move one way and your brother could move another way, and yet those were both serving very important needs to, to each of you.
- 1:01:46 – 1:10:11
The effect of fame on Hugh’s family;
- PADr. Peter Attia
Speaking of kids, how much have your kids struggled with being the son of, you know, famous people? Um, you told me a story once that I, I thought was very touching about how devastated Oscar was when he learned, obviously retrospectively, that John Lennon had been killed.
- HJHugh Jackman
Mm-hmm.
- PADr. Peter Attia
And I mean, I mean-
- HJHugh Jackman
Yeah
- PADr. Peter Attia
... first of all, it's just amazing to me how, how much that troubled him.
- HJHugh Jackman
It really troubled him. So I would say he was eight or nine when he found it out, and there were tears for, I'm gonna say, on and off for three months, three to six months.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Wow.
- HJHugh Jackman
There was a period where I genuinely said to Deb, "I, I, I've got to step away. I think I've got to step away. This, it's too much for him," because he was genuinely frightened. We would go to Central Park all the time. We would go to a store pa- past the John Lennon Memorial, and he just saw me as a famous person. I, and I did try to explain to him that there's different levels of fame. There is a mania with some people, Tiger at his height or Bieber or, you know, but that's never really happened to me. John Lennon and The Beatles, that was a whole different thing. But to an eight, nine-year-old, for him, he just found it really difficult. He hated the paparazzi.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Mm.
- HJHugh Jackman
He hated the attention. When he was a little kid, like I remember be- he was about two, people would come up to us at a table, right? They wanna talk to me. And you know what people, they wanna talk to you, so what they do is they come up and go, "Oh hi" to the kid. "Hey look at that, you look so cute," and it's like as a way in, right?
- PADr. Peter Attia
Mm-hmm.
- HJHugh Jackman
And people would come up [laughs] and Oscar would just go, he would look at them and go, "Ah. Ah."
- PADr. Peter Attia
[laughs]
- HJHugh Jackman
Like [laughs] and I thought that's the most honest response at this table right now, right? [laughs] I just wanted to be... But of course, you know, I, I never wanna be like that with people, and sometimes people overstep. They don't mean to. They, they, they don't know or sometimes it's kids. But for Oscar it was always brutal. And so it was on and off, and when he was a l- little older it, it never really l- left in a way till recent- till he was like 16. He would, if I said, "Oscar, I need you to... Why haven't you, why haven't you cleaned your room? You gotta clean your room. You know, why don't you clean your room?" He goes, "Well, why would I listen to you when you won't listen to me?" And I would say, "What do you mean?" He goes, "Well, you won't stop acting, so why am I gonna clean the room?"
- PADr. Peter Attia
Mm.
- HJHugh Jackman
You know how that important is to me. And, and so we really sat down and had a conversation about it, and I said, I said, "You do understand, like I didn't ever expect to be famous." Like no one ever does, I don't think. None, none of the actors I know, you go to drama school for four years, and you hope you can pay your rent, and if you don't you'll go and do something else, but it's a really rare thing, let alone be really sort of successful. That's just a crazy thing that just sort of happened. And I said, well, he said, "Well, why don't you just do theater? Like when you were just doing theater before the movie thing, I understood people in the theater will, you know, they would clap you and then you would have your normal life." I said, "You know, well, I really loved the films as well," and I said to him, "It's not what I set out to do. I didn't set out to be famous. I'm not trying to hurt you. You know, I understand. I wanna be there for you." And he looked at me straight in the face and he said, "So if you had your time again, would you do it differently?" And I went, "Hmm." I was like, wow. I said, "That's a really confronting question. If I knew what was coming and what, how it might impact you," I said, "I, I would find it really difficult. I might have done things in a different way." But I said, "I'd probably honestly still do it, Oscar, and not for the fame or the money, but because the people I get to work with, I, I pinch myself every day. Like I'm having the most amazing time. I'm working with incredible people." So imagine it's something you love to do and all of a sudden you get to w- work with other people who you just can't believe every single day. I said, "It's so fulfilling to me." I never really got e- either, but I, I remember thinking that's a really brilliant question for a 12, 13-year-old to ask. It was, it was, it was a really difficult time and I remember there was a period where I thought, "If I was truly loving, you know, I, I should just drop it."
- PADr. Peter Attia
Mm.
- HJHugh Jackman
I- I- I for whatever reason it's just too much for him to bear. Ava on the other hand has always been really balanced about it and I'll, I'll tell you a funny story about that. We arrived in Australia after a 24-hour flight from New York, and once we got through customs there were a lot of photographers. So the way we would handle that is I would separate myself, the family would go ahead. It would, you know, split them up and ultimately they'd needed me in the photograph so... And in Australia in particular the kids are famous because Deb, Deb is very famous too, so they want the family shot. So I would just separate myself and, and Ava just came back and started to walk with me. I said, "Oh, babe, you don't have to do that. It's fine. I can..." She goes, "It's okay." I said, we're walking along and they're taking photos of us and I said, "How is this for you? Like would you prefer that I was just an accountant like my dad and you never had to go through this?" And she said, "Dad, we just got off a first class flight on Qantas from New York to Sydney. I can put up with this for like 40 seconds." [laughs]
- PADr. Peter Attia
[laughs]
- HJHugh Jackman
And I thought, you know, let's, she's just sort of super, super balanced about it and kind of gets it. She's just always seen the, all right, there's a bit of a trade-off here, but no, I'd still prefer to fly first class for 24 hours and put up with two minutes here, you know?
- PADr. Peter Attia
Yeah.
- HJHugh Jackman
And then, and then I've, I've been lucky in the paparazzi thing, just to follow up. Now I remember we came straight from the airport. I was super worried, and we were going down there to shoot a movie, so I was there for 12 months. They all followed us. I'd rented a place and I'm like, "Oh, they know where I live. Of course they're gonna know where I, where I was renting." And we pulled in, and I could see behind me 15 photographers. And I thought... And, and Oscar was dark. He was dark. And I thought, "Oh, no, we're back home. We've got a year here with my family, with these cousins, with everything." So I just said... Everyone go- "Yeah, okay, you guys go inside." And I said, "I'm gonna unpack." But I wasn't gonna unpack. I went out of the garage and I went out onto the street, and I started walking towards them. And you could see the cameras come up like, "Oh, this is great. He's gonna flip birdies."
- PADr. Peter Attia
He's gonna confront us.
- HJHugh Jackman
You know?
- PADr. Peter Attia
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- HJHugh Jackman
He's gonna pre- This is like gold for them. That's what they want, right? And I... One guy, Shane, I said, "Hey, Shane." And he puts his camera down. He's sort of like the most senior guy. I said, "Can I have a word?" He comes over. They all put their cameras down. They didn't quite know. I said, "Dude, we're here for a year." I said, "You could see the airport. Like it- this really, really bothers my son, which means it really, really bothers Deb and I, and I don't wanna get in a situation where we're hiding inside a house in Australia." And I said, "So, but I understand you need something, so what do you need?" And he goes, "Um, we need you at the beach with your shirt off." I said, "I'll see you there, Bondi tomorrow morning, 8:15."
- PADr. Peter Attia
[laughs]
- HJHugh Jackman
So I literally had just made a deal. I felt I made a deal with the devil, but I thought, in the second I thought, "Okay, this is the lesser of two evils, [laughs] I guess." So I went down the next day and I trained with my mate Mike, and I said, "Mike, I'm sorry, but I have a feeling there's gonna be some photographers when we get into the..." And [laughs] he was hilarious. He goes, "Awesome, 'cause I've never looked better." Like-
- PADr. Peter Attia
[laughs]
- HJHugh Jackman
... you know, he's the same age as me, completely ripped, and so he's like, "Bring it on." Um, so we go out there. It was the most uncomfortable 20 minutes of my life because there were 15 of them, and they were in the water up to their waist. Like, it wasn't like we're on the beach, we're like... I'd given them this permission. And I was like, "What have I done? What have I done? This is so embarrassing." So I have a swim, I catch a couple waves. I come back in. Shane just nods at me, and I said, "We're good?" And he goes, "We're good." To their word, never saw them again for 12 months.
- 1:10:11 – 1:30:40
How Hugh finds the energy to consistently perform, and the spiritual connection he feels when acting;
- PADr. Peter Attia
I, I, you know, there's so many things I wanna, I wanna pull on that. Uh, one of them is just the amount of energy it takes to perform, and then-
- HJHugh Jackman
Hmm
- PADr. Peter Attia
... the amount of energy it takes to not perform, right? So, so there's, there's a cl- there... You know, so to me, the stage and the screen are very different, and I want to explore them both in separate ways. But, uh, let's go back to The Greatest Showman, the, the stage production, right? So when you came and stayed with us in San Diego, I guess that was two years ago, right?
- HJHugh Jackman
Yeah.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Um, when you and Irv came, and, um, one of the things that amazed me was the whole purpose of having you come and spend a day and a night with us was to give you a break, right? It was like, I don't know how many weeks or months you were into that, but it was a grueling schedule. It was hotel-
- HJHugh Jackman
Mm
- PADr. Peter Attia
... hotel, hotel, hotel. Deb and the kids are back home. It's just you and Irv. Uh, y- you know, I... It's like you can't even leave your room. You're having meals in your room. I mean, it's this... It just, it just struck me as, you know, a very difficult experience. And we were like, "Look, we want Hugh to have a totally normal day where we're gonna work out in the gym, we're gonna do nothing, we're gonna have a home-cooked meal, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." But, you know, it just happened that like my, my sister-in-law and her husband are in town, the kids are in town, so there's like all of my kids, all of their kids, everybody's there. And, like, they worship you like no other because they don't understand you're not The Greatest Showman. Like, they actually think you were The Greatest Showman.
- HJHugh Jackman
Right.
- PADr. Peter Attia
And what amazed me is-
- HJHugh Jackman
Actually, that's a movie I should've mentioned, too.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Yeah. Well, it's-
- HJHugh Jackman
And one I'm proud of. I, I don't know why I didn't.
- PADr. Peter Attia
So-
- HJHugh Jackman
Yeah
- PADr. Peter Attia
... I couldn't believe... 'Cause, 'cause our thinking was, "Okay, Hugh, let's just make this... We're gonna go to the gym. Go have a shower. Go relax. We'll call you when dinner is ready." But-
- HJHugh Jackman
[laughs]
- PADr. Peter Attia
... you couldn't wait to jump in the pool with the kids. You played with them for like an hour and a half while I got dinner ready. And I, and I just remember thinking, "Hugh, this is your chance to turn it off. Like, you don't have to perform here."
- HJHugh Jackman
Right.
- PADr. Peter Attia
"You don't have to please these kids."
- HJHugh Jackman
Right.
- PADr. Peter Attia
"This is y- this is your window to not please anybody but just relax." Um, and, and yet, it, it... I just, I, I was amazed at how much... First of all, it didn't look like it was an obligation to you. You genuinely looked like you were having fun. But I was just, I didn't know where the energy came from. That, that's really my question. Where does that energy come from?
- HJHugh Jackman
Well, it, it, it kind of energized me and it surpri- it did surprise me, 'cause I, I was very tired. It's a game of exhaustion. I guess the same for, like during the NBA season, you're traveling and this, and it's, it- it's managing recovery and, and, and like you, you're really just doing your best. And it's a bit monk-like. Um, and when you get a day off, 'cause that was a day off for me, it was a rare thing-
- PADr. Peter Attia
Yeah
- HJHugh Jackman
... to be in a city without traveling and a day off. Um, you think, "Okay, this is the time to recharge." And when I was there, we jumped in the pool, like... Look, if I, I definitely would've jumped in the pool with the ki- I love your kids, and the kids were there, and I would've done it for five minutes. You know what I mean? If... And done enough to, you know, okay, the kids have spent time with me, they got to know me a little bit. It just was energizing. It was somehow- Genuinely fun. First of all, the kids forgot within five minutes I was The Greatest Showman. We were just playing a game, and they got competitive, and I sort of felt like a kid again. And you realize sometimes, particularly in a creative field, actually, I don't know if it's creative or not, you've got to go outside your zone a little bit, and it, it becomes an inspiration. I, I learnt this when I was at drama school. Like, my teacher goes, "If, if you're an actor and you don't say yes when someone offers you a ticket to the ballet, then you're not a real actor." And I'll be like, "The ballet? But I'm into acting." He goes, "It's another creative art form. You've got to-
- PADr. Peter Attia
Mm
- HJHugh Jackman
... you don't know where the inspiration's gonna come from. If you're just gonna listen to the songs that you think you like and go to the movies that you like, you're just gonna stay in that lane as an actor. Like, you need to mix it up, right?" So I didn't mean to do it, but in a way, it was like I had been on my own. Like, I'd been with the group, and then you get to the stage, and you've got 20,000 people, and you're leading the group, and so when you get home, you just wanna sleep and read. And I was just missing my kids, my family, just being silly and playing in the afternoon, where you don't care about whether you're overusing your voice or, you know [laughs] And again, great food, wine, um, those berries, I remember, awesome. What was that that you put in? It was a monk-
- PADr. Peter Attia
You, you, you-
- HJHugh Jackman
What was the-
- PADr. Peter Attia
You brought the wine, though. That was the finest-
- HJHugh Jackman
I did bring the wine, yeah
- 1:30:40 – 1:38:47
Hugh’s experiences on the set of The Fountain and the meaning behind the film;
- PADr. Peter Attia
Y- let's talk about this in the context of The Fountain, right, which is I think one of the most amazing movies. I mean, obviously you and I are both just such fans of Darren. Um-
- HJHugh Jackman
Yeah
- PADr. Peter Attia
... and I, I just, I think he's literally just one of the most gifted people imaginable.
- HJHugh Jackman
Yeah.
- PADr. Peter Attia
And what I like about that movie, oh, there's so many things I like about it, but is that it's open to so many interpretations, and I, I actually want to hear yours, 'cause I'll, I'll share with you mine, and I, I've never heard Darren's. I don't know if Darren's actually spoken about what he intended it to be and, and maybe he didn't.
- HJHugh Jackman
He has.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Has he? He has?
- HJHugh Jackman
He has.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Okay. Well, before you s-
- HJHugh Jackman
I mean, he wouldn't mind
- PADr. Peter Attia
... before you tell me-
- HJHugh Jackman
Yeah
- PADr. Peter Attia
... I wanna tell you what I think.
- HJHugh Jackman
Yeah.
- PADr. Peter Attia
But obviously the theme of this movie is immortality, right? This is a big part of it. How did you get inside that character of Tomas, Tom, Tommy? Um, how, how did, how did that, how did that challenge you, and how did it make you think about your own mortality, if at all?
- HJHugh Jackman
Hugely. It was a... So we, you know, 17 years ago now, Darren came to see me do The Boy From Oz, a musical. I was playing Peter Allen, and he just, he said, "I've got a script for you." And I read the script, and I was like, that, I read it that night 'cause I was such a huge fan. I thought- I don't fully understand this, but I think this is about the meaning of life. Like, this is, this is as close as I've read to this is what it's all about. And I just said, "I'd love to do it." We spent a year working on it before we rolled one foot of film.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Mm.
- HJHugh Jackman
Um, I did a year of Tai Chi. We did yoga. I had to be in this, uh-
- PADr. Peter Attia
That, there's that position you have to sit in
- HJHugh Jackman
... scuff on floating space
- PADr. Peter Attia
Yeah, yeah.
- HJHugh Jackman
Took me a year to get my hips, you know, flexible enough to be able to do the lotus position. And also just understanding the history of it and the mentality of it, and the obsession of a man who ... I'm n- I'm now literally as I'm speaking it, I'm-
- PADr. Peter Attia
Hmm
- HJHugh Jackman
... seeing some of the parallels with your chapter in your book, right? His love for his wife who is sick and dying, and his race to, to heal her and cure death, and his obsession with that, and that absolute need to cure death. Um, when I spent a lot of time talking to doctors, there's a lot of doctors who believe that's, in some ways, theoretically possible that we could cure every disease, which is interesting. Probably another question I wanna ask you. But I had to go further inside, deeper into my own emotional reservoirs, journey, and in many ways it was the most lost I've ever got in a character. I'm not an obsessive person by nature. I'm quite liberal, I'm balanced. Even when I was partying with my mates, I'd be the guy at 3:00 in the morning going, "You know what, guys? Diminishing returns from here. I'm out."
- PADr. Peter Attia
[laughs]
- HJHugh Jackman
And then they'll all be, they'd all be there till midday the next day, and I, I was just naturally that's, that was my thing, or maybe I was too scared to kind of just fully go down the rabbit hole. But, um, I spent ... And, and I'm so glad you called that out with Darren, 'cause he also became a great friend. And this was actually, in film, the closest I got to a spiritual experience. It would, where the rolling of camera and stopping of camera just a blur, and that feeling of living, particularly when I was in the spaceship-
- PADr. Peter Attia
Mm-hmm
- HJHugh Jackman
... in that bubble.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Yep.
- HJHugh Jackman
There were moments where it touched on emotions for me, where an hour later I was still crying. Like, everyone's gone to lunch and I'm racked with sobs. Like, it was touching on things. And that was totally because of Darren and his belief in the sacredness of a, of a creative space. Um, he's just a pure artist. Uh, and, you know, funnily enough, all that stuff, you know, that Tim's talking about, the ayahuasca and all of that, which I'm not sure how much I, I, I should say, but this sort of came out a lot of that, but this is way back when. You know? Darren's always been a, a searcher in the, in consciousness, in the broader sense of consciousness, the meaning of life, the eternal immo- immortality. Um, and he's not afraid to ask those questions. I feel like I've gone off track a little bit. Like The Fountain. [laughs] Like, I feel, but it was certainly the most-
- 1:38:47 – 1:47:20
The potential of imagination, the idea of a higher power, and thoughts on science vs. religion;
- HJHugh Jackman
it is. Actually, this is a question I wanna ask you. Manifestation, right? You hear all about it. Are you, do- are you buying into it? Do you believe it?
- PADr. Peter Attia
I don't know. I mean, you know, I think I, I'm still in many ways sort of grounded to my science, my reality. Um, I ...
- HJHugh Jackman
Yep.
- PADr. Peter Attia
What about you?
- HJHugh Jackman
I'm a recent convert to it.
- PADr. Peter Attia
You're evolving, yeah.
- HJHugh Jackman
I actually, my, I, but Deb was always about it.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Mm-hmm.
- HJHugh Jackman
Always this. And in my head I'm like, "It just sounds nice," and I, I get the placebo effect if you believe something, it's probably gonna come true, and certainly with fears, like, "Don't hit the tree. Don't hit the tree. Oh my God, the tree," right?
- PADr. Peter Attia
Yeah, yeah.
- HJHugh Jackman
If you're thinking about it, obsessing, you're heading that way. But I used to think, no, and actually my life is a good exa- I used to say, I used to say to people like, "If I had manifested when I was 23, I wouldn't have thought up half the stuff that I've done-
- PADr. Peter Attia
Right
- HJHugh Jackman
... or has happened to me. Not even a quarter of it. I would have had far less sort of scope to imagine what could be. So maybe I would have limited my life if that was true, you know? So that's not what it's about. So so like Deb and I play backgammon.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Mm-hmm.
- HJHugh Jackman
We play backgammon a lot, like probably 15, 20 games a day.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Really?
- HJHugh Jackman
Maybe four or 500 a month. Yeah.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Wow.
- HJHugh Jackman
It's like our little... Backgammon's such a great game because it's five minutes. Like chess is like a commitment. It's minimum-
- PADr. Peter Attia
Yeah
- HJHugh Jackman
... 30 to an hour. You just don't really often find that time, right? [laughs] Backgammon, you can just go and play one game, three games. Anyway, um, I will, when I was first introduced to the idea, I wanted to believe it, because I was hearing it from a life coach that I still see to this day, and, and I thought, "You know what? I'm gonna test this out. I'm gonna test this out on backgammon." And it worked. It literally worked. This whole, I was losing by, for the month, by an, there was no way I was gonna win. I was like, "All right. This doesn't make any sense that I'm gonna win this month. I have to win like 20 games to three or something like that to win." Okay, I'm gonna practice it, close my eyes, believe it, feel it, imagine it. Okay, imagine your senses around it, that feeling when the dice is rolling, it's a double six, the fa- the frustration of Deb that I'm winning, winning, winning.
- PADr. Peter Attia
[laughs]
- HJHugh Jackman
Could it be? And I, and I won. And I'm like, I almost didn't wanna test it again because I was... Anyway, I'm a recent convert, but I imagine, like e- even if you publicly said, "Yeah, I'm kind of into it," you would probably get completely destroyed.
- PADr. Peter Attia
[laughs]
- HJHugh Jackman
You would be professionally destroyed. Uh, but anyway, I was s- I'm just sort of, this, that's why it's a very unfair question. But I, I do find it fascinating. And, and it maybe for me goes back to my biblical religious sort of upbringing. All that stuff in the Bible of you can move mountains, and if you believe it, if, you know, what is prayer? What is prayer other to imagination? Then you hear Coach K, that famous letter to self. Have you heard that? Coach K's-
- PADr. Peter Attia
No, I haven't
- HJHugh Jackman
... letter to self.
- PADr. Peter Attia
No.
- HJHugh Jackman
I think it was on CBS Sunday Morning, he used to do this thing where, letter to myself.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Okay.
- 1:47:20 – 2:01:37
The deep connection Hugh felt to Logan (his character in Wolverine);
- HJHugh Jackman
Um-
- PADr. Peter Attia
So, so on this, on this thought of immortality, um, let's talk a little bit about Logan because I... How much affection do you have for Logan? Like, you've-
- HJHugh Jackman
Oh
- PADr. Peter Attia
... he's been such a part of your life for so long. It, it's like I can't imagine how you must feel for him because my affection for him is unbelievable, right?
- HJHugh Jackman
Hm.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Like he's not even real, and yet I feel an affection for him the way I feel an affection for you. Now explain how that's possible, right? Like, you're a real person. You are my friend. I have affection for you.
- HJHugh Jackman
Friend.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Logan is a character, and yet I feel for him. I weep for him.
- HJHugh Jackman
Yeah.
- PADr. Peter Attia
I- how is that possible?
- HJHugh Jackman
That's a really, that's a great question. I think there's something archetypal about the character. I'll go back to my personal connection with it, but it's a very archetypal character. It's been the basis of many, the outsider, the reluctant hero. It, he's a mixture of where we wanna be, well, most of us wanna be. Like, it, that's why he's so cool, and I wish I was Wolverine, and marches to the beat of his own drum. And-
- PADr. Peter Attia
And yet he's imperfect, too, which is so important
- HJHugh Jackman
... completely imperfect, so we can relate-
- PADr. Peter Attia
Mm-hmm
- HJHugh Jackman
... in that way. Um, I have such affec- uh, when you ac- when you're acting, you have to fall in love with the character. You've probably heard that before. It's, but y- you sort of do. You have to, even if you're playing, you know, Macbeth, if you're playing someone who murders the king because he wants to become king, on any level, yeah, this guy's a monster, right? But the, that's where Shakespeare's brilliant. You get inside his head and his ambition, and you can see it coming. You see his failings. It goes without saying every character I play, there's some level of love or affection. But with Wolverine, I've, I, I felt at the beginning like he was teaching me, this is gonna sound weird, because I'm a people pleaser, and he's the opposite, right?
- PADr. Peter Attia
Hm.
- HJHugh Jackman
He, he almost to his own detriment is an outsider. I'm desperate to be an insider. I will do whatever I need to be to be on the inside. And so playing someone who was the opposite was so, so great for me, so kind of relieving and fun. And it, it was difficult at the f- it was not a particularly happy set. I didn't feel comfortable for quite a long time. I didn't feel I really had, uh, the support on set.
- PADr. Peter Attia
In j- in just the very first one?
- HJHugh Jackman
The, just the first one.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Okay. Which was what year? Was that 2000?
- HJHugh Jackman
'99 we were filming.
- PADr. Peter Attia
'99, okay.
- HJHugh Jackman
And I was, you know, someone else was playing the role. Dougray Scott had the part, then he got injured on another film, and that film went over, so they had to recast. So I was sort of like, I got cast, they were shooting, it was their third day of shooting, and I was coming to do an audition on set. So I was a, a bit of a last-minute thing. I could just feel a bunch of people were like, "Ugh, we had the guy." Like, "Who's this guy?" And then I just don't think I found my feet for a while. I was trying to I was coming from the theater. We, we rehearse, let's work it out together, and it just wasn't that and, and I felt very much on the outside, and I actually thought I was gonna get fired. Um, pretty reliably, uh, felt that I was close to getting fired. And, and the humiliation of that. I remember spending a weekend talking to Deb, and I was just bitching to her about this person, that person, you know, this situation. And she actually said to me, she goes, "Hmm, babe, I don't think you've done enough work." I said, "What?" She goes, "Again, I understand why you're angry and probably a bit embarrassed and scared, but it sounds to me like you actually y- you haven't done the work." Like, and it really [laughs]
- PADr. Peter Attia
Wow.
- HJHugh Jackman
I spent all that weekend and I went, oh, that was... That's another TSN moment for me.
- PADr. Peter Attia
That's right. Yep. That's, that's-
- HJHugh Jackman
A great aligning thing-
- PADr. Peter Attia
... that's a great spouse, right?
- HJHugh Jackman
... from your wife.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Yep.
- 2:01:37 – 2:15:50
Reflections on physical aging, emotional wellbeing, and longevity;
- HJHugh Jackman
you. Um, can I ask you something? I, I feel weird. I've, I've... I do wanna ask you this. It's more trivial than some of the th- subjects we've been talking about. But, uh, when I was training for Wolverine, at one point my trainer said, "Hey, we need to mix it up. I'm gonna bring in this guy, Scott, who's a professional bodybuilder, and s- uh, natural, but natural bodybuilder. And look, we're just gonna train with him for a week, and we might just pick up some tips." So training with him at the gym, this was when I did, actually, it was X-Men Origins. I was in Sydney. Someone comes up to him every 10 minutes at the gym and wants advice, right? No matter what he's doing. And I re- never forget [laughs] the first... Like, he was on the lat pull down, and he's doing it. By the way, a great thing I learned from him that I've used to this day, I assumed to be in his shape, you have to just smash it. He starts super light on everything. Like it's, ah Fun. And builds up. He doesn't do one warm-up set then three smashing it.
- PADr. Peter Attia
Mm.
- HJHugh Jackman
Light, light. So by the time you're doing your third, fourth set, you wanna, you actually really wanna lift. Your body's got used to it. It was such a great tip. Go light. Like, it shouldn't feel like a chore all the time. Like, "Oh, yeah, I can do this pull. This, easy. Little more, no problem," and then you just wanna go in and rip it. So he's on the lat pulldown, and he could feel someone walking up, asking, about to ask him, "Hey, dude, how do I get into shape?" Right? His whole life, that's what he hears. And without turning, he goes, "Don't eat carbs after 3:00 in the afternoon." [laughs]
- PADr. Peter Attia
[laughs]
- HJHugh Jackman
The guy goes, "Oh." Oh, he didn't even ask his question. He walked away. I said, "Dude, how often do you guys literally," tons of work, "someone doesn't ask me that." So you-
- PADr. Peter Attia
[laughs]
- HJHugh Jackman
... in your job as a longevity doctor, must get asked every five seconds, what's the one thing you... What's the thing you say on the lat pulldown to, that is the most important thing to change your life? Oh, no, he said one more thing. He goes, "Don't eat carbs after 3:00. You'll lose three to five kilos in the first month."
- PADr. Peter Attia
[laughs]
- HJHugh Jackman
That was it. [laughs]
- PADr. Peter Attia
Oh, gosh. Um, look, I think, I think, I think there are glib answers to that question, and I think there are serious answers to that question. I think, um... And by glib, I just mean universal, right? So what's the universal truth in longevity? Gosh. Um, if you, if you're willing to exercise nearly every day, like, you're gonna end up in a good place. You know, exercise is a very potent geroprotective-
- HJHugh Jackman
Right
- PADr. Peter Attia
... agent, right? That's a very non-sexy way to describe exercise, but it's, it's potent, right? So it's, it's, it, it really has a strong impact. It's diffuse. It acts in many different parts of the body, and it's very geroprotective, right? It really slows-
- HJHugh Jackman
Right
- PADr. Peter Attia
... down aging. And y- you know, if you want evidence of this, just examine the opposite. Just look at what happens to people when they are sedentary. Um, you know, you look at someone who, especially someone who's, you know, our age, who gets laid up in a hospital bed for a week, and you look at how far it sets them back, you know? It, you know-
- HJHugh Jackman
Yeah
- PADr. Peter Attia
... if you, if you're laid up for a week in the hospital, it could take you six months to recover from that-
- HJHugh Jackman
Mm
- PADr. Peter Attia
... physically. So, so you very quickly understand the potence of exercise. And, and so I would just say don't underestimate the power of exercise, which of course then gets into all the technicalities. Well, how much of it should be zone two? How much of it-
- HJHugh Jackman
Right
- PADr. Peter Attia
... should be zone five? How much strength? How much stability?
- HJHugh Jackman
Right.
- PADr. Peter Attia
And of course, the devil's in the details there. And then I think the other thing I would say is something we've been talking about all along, which is y- don't underestimate the power of relationships, because ultimately, they are probably gonna play a-
- HJHugh Jackman
Yeah
- PADr. Peter Attia
... greater role in the quality of your life than the length of your life.
- HJHugh Jackman
Mm.
- PADr. Peter Attia
But that matters more.
- HJHugh Jackman
Mm.
- PADr. Peter Attia
What's, what's the long... You know, the, the definition of, I think the definition of hell would be infinite length and misery.
- HJHugh Jackman
Right. Yeah.
- PADr. Peter Attia
So, you know, what can we do to offset that?
Episode duration: 2:15:50
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