199 - Running, overcoming challenges, and finding success | Ryan Hall

1. 0:00 – 0:10

   Intro

   1. PAPeter Attia0:00

      [upbeat music] Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Drive podcast. I'm your host, Peter Attia. [upbeat music]

2. 0:10 – 5:40

   How Ryan got into running and his formative years of training

   1. PAPeter Attia0:10

      Hey, Ryan. Looking very forward to having this discussion with you today. I've been, uh, I've been a fan of yours for, for a long time, actually. And, and running is kind of like, I don't know, it's sort of like F1. It's not really that popular in the United States, although it's becoming more so. I mean, obviously Netflix's Drive to Survive series has made F1 very popular, and I think also people are starting to become a little bit more aware of runners after, uh... Well, I don't really know what it is, but I think Kipchoge's two-hour sub, you know, effort kind of got a lot of people in this country excited about it. But, um, anyway, I, I think for me, the interest in running started 'cause I used to swim with Alan Webb. So back in the early 2000s, when he was, you know, this phenom who, you know, sets the high school record for the mile, um, and I'm swimming next to this guy in the next lane and just became kind of interested in his journey, and then obviously learned about you and the other runners of that generation. So anyway, um, your transformation has been remarkable, and I almost don't know where to begin. But, um, let, let's just start with... 'Cause people probably, you know, some people won't know a lot about you, but, you know, so, so you grew up in Big Bear, right?

   2. RHRyan Hall1:20

      Yeah, correct. Southern California.

   3. PAPeter Attia1:22

      Yeah. But it's at altitude, so it's not, it doesn't, it's not like beach Southern California. When people think SoCal, they think, you know, Orange County or San Diego, right?

   4. RHRyan Hall1:32

      Yeah. I mean, Big Bear's a really cool place to grow up. I mean, we're like two hours from the beach, so it's one of the few places you can, like, both surf and snowboard or ski in the same day, you know? So yeah, we grew up with snow. I lived like a mile away from Snow Summit, and it was just, like, honestly, it was like the perfect place to grow up as a distance runner. Like, when you look at the best guys in the world, they're oftentimes coming from Ethiopia and Kenya, places that are at 7,000 feet altitude, and that's exactly what I was at. And so kind of just found myself in, like, the perfect scenario for a distance runner, and even in the sense of being able to, uh, live high and train low. So when I was growing up in high school, my dad was my coach, started a cross-country and track team just so I could run. There wasn't even one available at Big Bear High School. And, uh, we would drop down like twice a week, drive an hour down to sea level, get on a track at sea level, run some super hard interval sessions, and then pop back up to altitude. So, um, it was, you know, we were kind of before our time in a lot of ways. You know, like the research and studies are showing how beneficial that kind of training is, but we were just doing it because the, it just made sense. It was the environment in which I found myself. And, um, pretty crazy to look back on it now and see how things like that really do kinda contribute to the trajectory of the path that you're on.

   5. PAPeter Attia2:49

      And I suspect there's something to, um, being in that environment when you're young, during the, the, the formative years of your cardiovascular system. Um, I, I look at, like, my daughter, who's 13, and she loves volleyball and basketball, but doesn't like cross country or track, and I, I, I'm trying not to be a psycho about it, but I'm also sort of telling her like, "You have this really narrow window in which your cardiovascular system is quite malleable." Um, and like I'm very fortunate that because I was involved in boxing, I had to do so much cardio, both aerobic and anaerobic training during those formative years. And even though I'm a fraction of that level of fitness today, I can still ride on, you know, what I had then. But I feel like if you don't push that system hard in your teenage years, it's very hard to develop it later. I don't know if that's true, but that has been my impression. And then to take that one step further, which is what someone like you has been able to do, to have that altitude arbitrage is, I, I think, just unbelievable.

   6. RHRyan Hall3:51

      Oh, yeah. I mean, I, the effects of cardio at a young age definitely play on later in life. Like now, for example, like I really don't do much cardio at all. Like last year, I had nine months where I just focused on strength training, just trying to get as big and strong as I can. My weight went up from 167 to 192 over nine months, and I was literally doing zero running. None. Like no other cardio, no biking, no swimming, nothing. I hopped on a treadmill at the end of that period when I was at my heaviest just to see, like, let me see where my mile is at, 'cause I was gonna train for this challenge that I tried, this 500-pound deadlift into a sub-five-minute mile. So I was like, "Let me see where I'm at just starting-wise". Hopped on a treadmill after my weight session, 5:18 for the mile with zero, zero training. And that, I think that goes to kinda like what you're talking about. Like, when you develop that early on and, like, you just need little touches here and there. I take pretty short rests between a lot of my lifts, and that's like enough to keep me in 5:18 mile shape without even trying, you know? But yeah, I mean, there's a ton of interesting things. Like they talk about, um, kids who are born at altitude and how they have greater, um, potential for cardio development over time. But it's kinda interesting, like looking at my family. I'm in the middle of five kids. My youngest brother, Chad, he's super into endurance stuff, um, and he was born at altitude, where I was born in Seattle, Washington, so a little bit like-

   7. PAPeter Attia5:13

      How old, how old were you when you got to Big Bear?

   8. RHRyan Hall5:16

      I was five years old-

   9. PAPeter Attia5:17

      Mm-hmm

   10. RHRyan Hall5:17

       ... so pretty young. So I've spent most of my time at altitude. But he was born in altitude, but we didn't really see a whole drastic effect. I mean, he was a really good runner. He won the national championships in high school cross country, so a stud runner. Went, went to Oregon on scholarship and all that stuff. But, um, between him and I, there's not like a huge difference in what we've seen in terms of our top end potential for, for cardio.

3. 5:40 – 10:00

   The advantages of altitude—living high and training low

   1. PAPeter Attia5:40

      Well, the other thing that you alluded to that I, I wanted to talk about later, but we might as well just talk about it now because you brought it up and I think it's an important thing that I became pretty interested in m- many years later when I was swimming and trying to look for ways to improve, was, um, basically the matrix of living high, living low, training high, training low, and coming up with what was the optimal scenario And it turned out, as you pointed out, this is something for which we have a very clear answer today. The, the answer wasn't clear 20 years ago. Today, the answer is crystal clear, which is the best results are attained from living high, training low when it comes to intensity. So you can live high, train high for low-end, um, aerobic efficiency, but you have to train that anaerobic peak at sea level. And so I remember swimming up in Colorado Springs at the Olympic Training Center when I would go up there for some swim camps and stuff, and being a guy who lived at sea level, who would then go to try to push it hard in Colorado, I mean, it was a total waste of time. I mean, it was a complete [laughs] waste of time to try to do any top-end anaerobic stuff, um, when I hadn't, uh, you know, had any ability to do that. In fact, it was the exact opposite you'd wanna do. And so I had friends who, who lived at sea level, but they would put... They would have oxygen deprivation tents that they would sleep in at sea level to f- to functionally replicate the living high so then they could train at sea level. What you described growing up is really the kinda perfect way to be able to do that. Um, you, you made it sound like that was just sort of accidentally discovered, though. You guys just sort of empirically stumbled upon the efficacy of that training?

   2. RHRyan Hall7:19

      Yeah. Yeah. It was just kinda like, it just felt good. You know, anytime I'd pop down to sea level to do track workout, it's kinda like you're saying, Peter. It's like I try that stuff at altitude, and, like, running 400-meter repeats on short rests or, like, longer, um, aerobic efforts where you're trying to do, like, mile reps super fast, you just... You gotta do it. You have to structure it different at altitude. Whereas you go down to sea level, and you can, you can spend a lot of time at race pace, you know, working on that turnover, which you just can't do at altitude without breaking it up more. And so that's what we do a lot of when we're up high, staying up high for intervals, is we'll just break things up where you're doing a bunch of 200s on really short rest. Um, but yeah, we just enjoyed popping down to sea level for those sessions. Just felt good, and it was working, right? Like, the results, like, were very obvious. But yeah, the whole altitude thing is really interesting 'cause my wife, Sarah, who's a professional marathon runner, she's run 220 for the marathon, which is the second fastest ever by an American, and, uh, sh- it took her... She grew up at sea level in Santa Rosa, California, so when you're talking, Peter, about going up to Colorado and doing the swimming and stuff, uh, there's also this effect of, like, how many years have you spent at altitude?

   3. PAPeter Attia8:28

      Sure.

   4. RHRyan Hall8:28

      So, like, for example, I am super good at altitude in terms of running, you know? Like, I can run pretty close to my sea level times at 7,000 feet altitude.

   5. PAPeter Attia8:37

      At what distance?

   6. RHRyan Hall8:37

      I could do-

   7. PAPeter Attia8:38

      At any distance?

   8. RHRyan Hall8:39

      Uh, so particular I'm thinking about, like, marathon training.

   9. PAPeter Attia8:42

      Okay. Okay.

   10. RHRyan Hall8:42

       So, like, what's most important in marathon training is your thresholds.

   11. PAPeter Attia8:45

       Yep.

   12. RHRyan Hall8:46

       So 15-mile thresholds, where you just run 15 miles at that kind of marathon intensity, and I could run 12, 15 miles at 448 per mile, which is about marathon pace, um, at 7,000 feet. And if I pop down to sea level, maybe I'm running, like, 442 pace, 440 pace, but I didn't get a huge conversion from altitude to sea level, whereas someone like my wife, Sarah, who wasn't as accustomed to altitude, she'll get sometimes, like, 20 seconds a mile, where she's running that much slower at altitude, that much faster at sea level. But she's also gotten better the more time she's spent at altitude. So she first... We moved to Mammoth Lakes out of college after we graduated from Stanford in 2005, and, uh, she was hating living in Mammoth at 8,000 feet for such a long time. But gradually, over time, like, she's gotten much, much better at altitude. Probably still not as good as, like, I was when I was in my prime, but, um, now we have to even go up to higher altitudes to get similar effects to what we were getting before. So we have a place in Crested Butte, Colorado, where we're sleeping at 9,400 feet, and every time she goes up there, we see a massive jump, um, in her fitness, uh, just from doing, like, a month stint up there. So you have to keep, like, kinda playing with it 'cause you realize, like, the

4. 10:00 – 12:42

   Progressive overload, blood flow restriction, and switching up your workout routine

   1. RHRyan Hall10:00

      science is there and, um, your experiences are true, but also your body's dynamic. It's always changing, right? So you gotta, like... You just can't repeat the same thing over and over and over again. Like, you have to realize, like, my, my whole f- like, body is always changing, always adapting, so I gotta be throwing new things at it, and that's, like, a big thing that I've learned in the lifting space as well. It's like if I'm just doing the same lifting all the time and not, like, trying new mechanisms to add weight to the bar, different tactics, like, I'm just not gonna see growth, right? So it's just... It... That's the fun thing about running, training, lifting. It's all just an experiment of one, and it's just all just a giant experiment, right? And you're just always, like, tweaking little variables, and, uh, that's what I love about fitness, running, all of that stuff, is I love seeing growth. I love just, like, the frustration of not seeing growth, getting plateaus, and be like, "What is going on right now?" And, like, my mind's just, like, chewing on this over and over again for, like, months and months, and then I'm just making little tweaks, little tweaks till I find it. Then you find it, and bang, it clicks, you know? And whether it's in the weight room or running, all of a sudden, like, you're doing what you couldn't do before, and you're like, "Ah." I just love, I love learning and growing in that way, you know?

   2. PAPeter Attia11:12

      Well, you, you really touched on a lot of things there, but one of them is this concept of progressive overload, and, um, I think that that is one of the hardest things to really do when you're training yourself, as most of us are, right? Most of us, you know, we're just kind of weekend warriors, and we're, we're sort of our own coaches, and it is very easy to get kind of comfortable at... And again, it's true in the weight room, it's true on the bike, it's true if you're running or whatever it is you're doing. Um, but, but therein lies the challenge of being able to progressively overload, which doesn't always mean weight. It can mean sets. It can mean reps. It can mean reduction in rest time. There's so many ways that one can progressively overload. Lately, I've become pretty obsessed with blood flow restriction and weight training, so that becomes another way to progressively overload using a fraction of the weight that you would normally use. Um, so-

   3. RHRyan Hall12:03

      Yeah, I've been doing some of that too. I love-

   4. PAPeter Attia12:04

      Oh, you have?

   5. RHRyan Hall12:04

      I love that s-

   6. PAPeter Attia12:05

      Yeah

   7. RHRyan Hall12:05

      ... especially for runners, because, like, runners... Like, I got hurt. I was training for the Beijing Olympics. I was at the Olympic Training Center in Chula Vista working with a strength coach, and he had me on one of those vibrating platforms to warm up for squatting, and they worked great. Like, I was able to, like, warm up and get into a much deeper squat than I ever got into before. But, like, as a runner, like, most runners are super tight, and, like, the ankle mobility isn't there. Like, shouldn't be down in a butt-to-the-ground squat. It's just not beneficial for distance runners. It's not specific for distance runners, right? And so anyways, long story short, I ended up tweaking, like, the connection to my patella,

5. 12:42 – 18:40

   Lessons learned from competing in the Beijing Olympics

   1. RHRyan Hall12:42

      and, uh, that Bothered me all the way up to Beijing, in Beijing. Uh, I was kicking myself so much for getting hurt lifting, you know? And so things like that-

   2. PAPeter Attia12:51

      Now, you had a pretty good run in Beijing, though. I mean, you finished 10th if I recall, yeah?

   3. RHRyan Hall12:55

      Yeah. Yeah, I was 10th there, but it just, to me, like it wasn't about what place I finished, it was this, uh, this sensation of clicking.

   4. PAPeter Attia13:05

      Yeah, you didn't click.

   5. RHRyan Hall13:05

      Right? So I wasn't-

   6. PAPeter Attia13:06

      You went out a little slow in that race, if I recall. You-

   7. RHRyan Hall13:09

      Yeah

   8. PAPeter Attia13:09

      ... you, you were very tentative, like, the first 15K, and then you actually kind of came back. You, you, you basic- it... I don't know if you negative split by time, but it seemed by effort you certainly did.

   9. RHRyan Hall13:21

      Yeah. I mean, we could, we could, I could... I wrote a book about, like, that whole experience, you know? Like, so much went into that, but I also wasn't clicking in training. You know how you can tell when, like, in training you're just like, "Oh, I just feel..." Like, before I ran the Houston Half, like I'll, I went for a run in Big Bear a couple days before that race, and it was snowing like crazy, like those big old sn- like, snowflakes that come down super slow, and it was just stacking up. I was literally running in like a foot of snow on the roads. They hadn't even been plowed yet, and I felt like Tigger. Like, I just felt like I was just bouncing along. It was effortless. Like, when things are clicking in training, then it's like, ooh, this is gonna be fun, you know? You're kinda licking your chops kinda feel. Going into Beijing, I didn't take a big break after running 206 at the London Marathon, uh, in April. I didn't take my customary two-week break where I put on 10 pounds and don't run at all. I didn't do that, and so then I was just kinda flat, like, the whole build-up for Beijing. So I wasn't, I wasn't right going into the race. But then there's also this thing of you're talking to the, the scientists, and we're doing, like, all this stuff at the Olympic Training Center where they're prepping us for the race, talking about how hot and humid it's gonna be, and it was one of those big life learning experiences for me where, um, the, the storyline is it's gonna be so hot and humid, it's gonna be slow, it's gonna be one and, like, 212, 211, right? And so we're just buying this story, and we're just hearing this story over and over again. And I didn't do what I learned to do after that, which is, like, you gotta be like the samurai. It's like you gotta be ready for any situation that's gonna come, you know, and not expect anything. So, like, the saying is, like, "Expect nothing, be ready for anything," and I wasn't in that state of mind. I was like, "All right. It's gonna be chill the first mile." And, and right from the gun, Sammy's just, like, gone, the guy who ended up winning the gold medal. Just took it out super hard, right? And it was like, uh, a mentally, I got hit in the chin with an uppercut, like, right o- out of the gate, you know? 'Cause I wasn't, I wasn't ready for that scenario at all. So then you get back and you're in, like, 60th place, and you're trying to win a medal, and you're like, you don't win a medal from 60th place. I mean, you can, but you have to really, like, coach yourself through some tough spots, 'cause, um, you don't have momentum on your side. And a lot of, like, competing well in anything is getting excited while you're out there, right? Like, you gotta be just building this, like, snowball of excitement as the race is playing out, and I was having the opposite experience of that, where I was like, "I'm not where I wanna be. I'm too far back. Can't even see the leaders. The helicopter's, like, way off [laughs] in the distance," you know? And, uh, and so I had to kind of coach myself through that, and actually how I did that was by encouraging other guys around me, which isn't a, a normal tactic that you do. But as I kind of, like, encouraged other people, it encouraged me that, like, I was, like, y- able to hold a conversation with people, and I just felt better from just, like, trying to actually help other people out, and it shifted what was happening inside my mind, inside my heart, and then I was able to kind of find my own rhythm and start to work my way up in that race and finish 10th, which I wasn't stoked on at the time. Like, I was, you know, trying to get a medal. But it's funny, the further removed you get from these things and the older you get, you, you appreciate it more, you know? And so I look back on it now, proud of the performance.

   10. PAPeter Attia16:37

       Was Meb also-- I mean, Meb's, Meb got a silver, if I recall, in Athens in '04, right? Was, was-

   11. RHRyan Hall16:43

       Yeah, and then he-

   12. PAPeter Attia16:44

       Was he there in '08?

   13. RHRyan Hall16:46

       He, he wasn't, no. So we were training together up in, uh, Mammoth Lakes, and he was dealing with a lot of injury issues going into it. So he, I think he DNF'd at the trials that year in 2007. He had some gnarly kinda hip stuff going on. And that was actually really cool to, um, see Meb in that situation, where he went through so many injuries, so many down times, and, like, even, like, mentally struggling with how to handle that, and see him pop out the other end of that, win New York, win Boston, um, was just incredible. So he's... We were neighbors in, uh, in Mammoth when we were training. We lived like 400 meters apart, and he's always been kinda like a big brother to me, so, um, such a good dude. And yeah, I was, you know, in that race when he won Boston, and that was such a special experience. I remember I was, I was having a bad day that day.

   14. PAPeter Attia17:32

       It was a horrible day for you, though, yeah.

   15. RHRyan Hall17:35

       Yeah.

   16. PAPeter Attia17:35

       I remember you-

   17. RHRyan Hall17:35

       Yeah, I was running terrible, yeah. But I just remember coming up over Heartbreak Hill, and you know, we don't know what's happening out there. I knew Meb was away, and I knew that, like, our group was pretty far back, and I knew he had a chance at winning it, but you don't know what's happening. So I, I was coming up over Heartbreak Hill, and I remember just yelling at the spectators on the side. I was like, "How is Meb doing?" [laughs] when he came past here. And they were like, "He was winning when he came past." And I knew if he got over Heartbreak Hill in the lead, he was gonna win that thing, so-

   18. PAPeter Attia18:00

       I, it's funny

   19. RHRyan Hall18:01

       ... yeah, that was special

   20. PAPeter Attia18:03

       It is hard to believe that that was 2014, because that's just one of those races that is seared in my mind. I remember it so well. Because I used to, I don't wanna say I trained with Meb, but we trained at the same place in San Diego. So there's this place called Fiesta Island. It's, it's perfectly flat, so that's where all the time trial races are. So, uh, three or four days a week, I would do my training on Fiesta Island. It's seven kilometers and it's perfectly flat, and, and Meb would do his tempo runs there. And early on a Tuesday or a Thursday morning, we'd be the only two guys out there, me on my bike, him running. Um,

6. 18:40 – 32:12

   Importance of speed, power, and strength for runners

   1. PAPeter Attia18:40

      and you know, I think it, it's actually worth pointing out to people listening to this who aren't familiar with some of these times just how fast you guys run So [clears throat] you threw around some numbers earlier, like, you know, marathon pace 4:42 to 4:48. I mean, these are such insanely fast speeds that I think the, the likelihood that a person could run that speed for half a mile is virtually zero, right? Like, I know right now I could not go out and run 800 meters, half a mile, at that pace. There's simply no way.

   2. RHRyan Hall19:15

      Yeah, which is funny, 'cause I can't either. [laughs]

   3. PAPeter Attia19:17

      I, I know, but it's just, it's so fast. And I used to have a sign in my office that said 4:42. So it was a pace clock, and it said 4:42, and it actually came from... I remember getting this idea off something one of your sponsors did for one of your races many, many years ago. They had a treadmill set up to that pace, and the idea was they just had random people show up, and they're like, "How long can you hold the pace that he holds for a little over two hours?" And so they'd put a harness around a person's waist, and they'd make them run at 4:42. And these people were getting shot off the back of this treadmill after 30 seconds, 40 seconds. One person made it a minute, right? And the reason I had that sign up in my office was I was, um, very circumspect/put off by the notion that people would say, "Hey, man, we're training for a marathon, not a sprint. This is a marathon, not a sprint." And I tried to make the point to people that, okay, but if you want to win a marathon, it feels like sprinting. So let's be clear. It's one thing to go out and run a marathon and take six hours to do it. It's another thing to go out and win a marathon. So if you're trying to win a marathon, you have to understand the pain that these guys are in. You have to understand what 4:42 means. It is insanity. And yes, for you, it is below your threshold, but your threshold is so high. So, you know, l- looking at, you know, Meb win that race and, and having seen him in the months leading up to that, and I'm on my bike, and I'm seeing how fast he's running, you know, doing his tempo repeats and stuff, it's just, it is really amazing, and I, I do think it's one of those things where I wish everybody could try to run at that pace a- and do the exercise that was done on that treadmill or something like that because otherwise, I think a lot of what we're gonna talk about today is very hard to understand from a physiological standpoint.

   4. RHRyan Hall21:18

      Yeah, I mean, if, like, people just go out to the track and just try and run 200 meters at, uh, yeah, like, my, my half marathon pace is 4:33 per mile, right? So that's 34 seconds per 200. So if you just go out to the track and try and run a 34, it's pretty crazy, 'cause yeah, like, you know, guys, when they're racing, they make it look so effortless. Like, Kipchoge, when he's running a sub-two, like, it looks so slow, so... And it's 34 seconds per 200 is what he's running, and j- that is a very fast, like, 200. But yeah, I mean, what you're talking about, Peter, is super important. Like, distance runners are not slow. Like, like, world-class marathoners, like, I want the guy, now I'm coaching, you know? I want the guy who can run 49 seconds for a 400. Like, that's the kind of speed you have to have. Now, you don't have to have that speed while you're doing marathon training, but you need to have had that speed before that, like, as a kid growing up. That's why, like, with kids, I'm like, "Get as fast as you can," 'cause if you want to be a world-class marathoner, I need 49-second speed, right? Like, that's the kind of speed that Kipchoge has, and then that carries you on to be able to run a great mile, to be able to run a great 5K. Like, it's all built off speed. Like, that's what we work on with training. It's like, let me develop your 5K speed, your mile speed first, which is directly correlated to your sprint speed. Let me develop all that, and then we'll grow that into 10K speed. Then we'll grow that into half marathon speed. Then we'll grow that into marathon speed. But marathoners are, they have wheels, and we would have to train. In training, I'm doing 50-meter sprints twice a week in the middle of marathon training, 50-meter sprints, like little hill sprints. We're in the weight room. Like, you g- it's a power-to-weight ratio. Like, so you gotta have power, and that's, that's an area I've grown a ton in since I've retired from running, and as I look back at my, the weights I was doing, I, I just kinda, like, scratch my head. I'm like, "Oh, I wish I could go back and do things a little bit differently in the weight room," 'cause I don't think I was using my time effectively there. But, um, yeah, it's, power is so important for, for distance runners of all... I mean, unless maybe if you're doing, like, super ultra stuff, maybe it's not quite as important, but for marathons-

   5. PAPeter Attia23:22

      I, I think-

   6. RHRyan Hall23:23

      ... you gotta have that speed

   7. PAPeter Attia23:23

      ... I think it matters everywhere, and I think, I, I know that Meb was doing deadlifts as he was preparing for 2014. I mean, um, one of the... I talked to a guy who ha- had, had, had overseen part of his strength training program, and one of the things he was really fixated on was his strength-to-weight ratio as measured by a deadlift.

   8. RHRyan Hall23:43

      Yeah, hex bar deadlift, right?

   9. PAPeter Attia23:45

      That's right, hex bar deadlift with a, um, high eccentric. Uh, pardon me, high concentric and a dropped eccentric. So no... So you would pick it up, drop it, pick it up, drop it, right? So the reason for that being the eccentric tears the muscle fibers. As you're tearing the muscle fibers, that's what's creating hypertrophy. We didn't want any hypertrophy. We just wanted the strength. So it was pick it up, drop it, pick it up, drop it. When Meb first started, if I recall, his strength-to-body weight ratio for a single rep max was 1.3, so pretty pathetic, right, if we're gonna be honest, right? He could only deadlift 1.3 times his body weight. Um, I believe going into Boston, he was able to get to three to one. Maybe it was 2.7, but it was in that vicinity, and the logic for this was really just physics. When you run, you have to hit the ground with a toe. You know, whether you're... You know, let's assume you're toe striking, not heel striking, but your foot has to hit the ground. The harder you hit the ground, the harder the ground hits you. The harder the ground hits you, the higher you go. The higher you go, the further your stride. And so, um, they basically had calculated that for Meb to run the pace he wanted to run in Boston that year, he needed to add four inches to his stride And to do that basically required taking his maximal force per unit body weight from something like 1.3 to 2.7. That was going to translate to four more inches of stride. So he didn't increase his stride rate, he just increased stride length, and that was done through strength. And I think, I suspect that that's becoming more understood in running now, right? Because, you know, there was a day when I suspect runners were told, "Don't lift weights," right? You wanna be as skinny as possible. Uh, it's not about that type of strength. And I, I'm guessing that that's not at all how you coach your runners.

   10. RHRyan Hall25:39

       No, yeah. We're, we're super into strength training. And kinda like you're saying, like your- my understanding even has changed so much throughout the years, where like I used to always think of like, think about your foot action hitting the ground. I always thought it as being like a tiger paw, and you're like pulling the ground, when really that's not what you're going for. You're going for, like you were saying, you're stomping the ground. You're putting force into the ground that's gonna shoot you up and out, right? So like, and I never thought about it that way. I was always just trying to like paw the ground. And so that's where you, you wanna use your glutes too, right? Your glutes are your strongest, biggest muscle, and yet like so many runners, myself included, as a pro runner, I had very underdeveloped glutes. I would've been way faster, way better if my glute strength was, was better.

   11. PAPeter Attia26:21

       Yeah, and your hamstrings were probably quite weak and probably incredibly tight. And-

   12. RHRyan Hall26:26

       Right, yeah.

   13. PAPeter Attia26:28

       And that, those-

   14. RHRyan Hall26:28

       Yeah, but-

   15. PAPeter Attia26:28

       ... insights came from sprinters, right? So if... I, I believe Usain Bolt has the greatest, uh, force per unit mass ever measured on a, um, force plate treadmill. So these are... You've probably seen these, these treadmills where what you run on the treadmill and it tells you how much force you're putting into the ground. And I believe Usain Bolt is able to put six times his body weight into the ground with each strike, with each foot strike. I mean, it's just, it's crazy to think how strong that is.

   16. RHRyan Hall26:58

       Yeah. Yeah, it's unreal. But yeah, I think for people who are listening, if you're a runner, like try that. Next time you go out, try like pushing through the ground rather than trying to paw the ground. And like how you contact the ground's so important. So a lot of people are rolling through the ground. It's very difficult to utilize those glutes and to really put force into the ground when you're rolling from your heel to your toe, right? So you gotta like contact the ground like midfoot and just be like stomping the ground. And but yeah, the weight training helps tremendously with that. So, so, so important for sprinters, for... Yeah, and the hex bar deadlift, that's my favorite lift. Like if I, if I was advising runners or when I am coaching runners, that's the first lift that they do on the day. It's the most important one, and the one that we're always trying to increase the amount of load they're able to handle with that.

   17. PAPeter Attia27:43

       Have you used this device called a G Flight? So it's these two little red boxes that shine a, a laser beam between them, and they measure how high you can jump and your ground contact time.

   18. RHRyan Hall27:56

       Hmm. No. No, that sounds interesting. Yeah.

   19. PAPeter Attia27:57

       So it's super interesting. So it's become an part of my training now. And, um, so the way it works is it's shining a little laser across the floor. So you lay these things down on the floor, and if you stand between them static and you jump and come down, it will tell you with incredible precision how high you've jumped, because it measures how long you're off the ground. And it, it's, it's a simple way of, you know, it's a simple physics formula to figure out how high you went. Um, so that's really interesting. So one, you can use it for static vertical jump. But I think where you would find it more interesting for your runners is when you do depth jumps. So now you put it in front of a box, and you have the athlete jump off the box, hit the ground, and jump up. Now it gives you two pieces of information. It tells you how long you were in contact with the ground and how high you went. And the marker of a great runner or a person who is very good at generating force is you should have a higher vertical jump when you jump off a box and land and go up than just static. Most people don't. Most people will jump higher static off the ground than off the box, and the reason is their ground contact time is way too long, and they dissipate way too much force. I forget the metrics that, um... I, I believe you wanna be beneath .28 seconds of ground contact time. I think that's the number. Um, I struggle with this. So, so I'm still jumping higher from a static than off a box. Um, and my ground contact time is always north of .3 seconds. So this is one of the things I've been working on, not because I'm remotely interested in running fast, but because I'm interested in become very, in, in my feet becoming very good at load dissipation, um, and, and load transfer and force transfer. So I think that's just a very important skill as you age, whether you're walking down a flight of stairs, whether you're hiking. Um, but, uh, for a runner, I would suspect if you could get people down into a g- ground contact time of like .2 to .25, it... That's going to translate to exactly what you're saying. 'Cause the way you describe it, like the, the sort of rolling foot on the ground, like you're never gonna get force that way. You're just spending-

   20. RHRyan Hall30:11

       Right

   21. PAPeter Attia30:11

       ... you, you could be spending, you know, .6 seconds on the ground when you're rolling your foot across it. Instead, you wanna be like hitting it super quickly and getting up.

   22. RHRyan Hall30:21

       Yeah. You know what blows my mind about that, though, as we're talking about this? I'm just thinking, I'm sure you're familiar with Jim Ryan, right?

   23. PAPeter Attia30:27

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   24. RHRyan Hall30:28

       Yeah. So I'm just thinking about him, and somehow he was a heel striker. And like I know of like, I think Dathan Ritzenhein's a heel striker. Uh, Abdi, I just saw him the other day up in Flagstaff, he's also a heel striker. And like, how are these guys running so fast from heel striking? Like, is it a thing where like they could be much faster if they weren't heel striking? Or like is there some kind of advantageousness to that, that we're not aware of or seeing? I don't know. I'm super curious about that.

   25. PAPeter Attia30:57

       I would put it in what you said earlier. It might be that a combination of A, there are just some people who really, uh, you know, adapt to a certain way of doing things. And it might be that they run really well despite that. But I, I-- everything I've read on this subject matter, and all the experts I've spoken to suggest that, you know, forefoot to, to toe striking is the way we were meant to run. You know, if you, if you go back and look at kind of how our ancestors ran, and you look at really how force transfer would be most efficient, you don't wanna be striking on the heel.

   26. RHRyan Hall31:31

       Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that makes sense to me. But yeah, it's, it's interesting to see people getting away with it. But I, I'm with you. I'm always interested in, like, not, like, what can you get away with, but what is optimal, right? 'Cause I think it's easy to do that when you look at, like, how the Africans train. Like, we've spent a lot of time training in Kenya and Ethiopia and, like, they don't even go cool down, and these are the best runners in the world, on the planet, and they don't go cool down. And I'm like, we're, we're-- we learned to cool down in, like, middle school cross country-

   27. PAPeter Attia31:59

       [laughs]

   28. RHRyan Hall31:59

       ... and the importance of that, you know? And, and you find yourself being like, "Well, maybe they got it right. Maybe we shouldn't be [laughs] cooling down." But I always remind myself, like, well, what is optimal? Like, that's really what I'm after, not, like, what can you get away with, you know?

   29. PAPeter Attia32:11

       Yeah.

7. 32:12 – 34:58

   The crazy idea that got Ryan hooked on running

   1. PAPeter Attia32:12

      So, so let- let's... I mean, I, I've gotten so off track. I wanted to kinda go through a bunch of other things, but, like, I just wanna now geek out on all this other stuff. But, but I, I think just for folks to have a bit of a sense of your trajectory, 'cause we've touched on so many things. I mean, we very quickly, just in passing, threw out there the Houston Marathon, where you became the first American to break an hour, and you still hold the American record for that, and a record that may stand for some time. Um, but let- let's go back. You're growing up in Big Bear, your dad, an amazing baseball player, um, [lips smack] and you were typical baseball, basketball, et cetera. Didn't pick up running, if I recall, till you were, like, 13 or something.

   2. RHRyan Hall32:47

      Yeah, correct. Yeah, you did your homework, Peter.

   3. PAPeter Attia32:48

      Yeah, man. Well, I remember, uh, and you did, like, your first run, you just decided, "Dad, I wanna run around the lake." That's a 15-mile run. Do you-- how much did that hurt?

   4. RHRyan Hall32:58

      Oh, it was the pain train the whole time. [laughs]

   5. PAPeter Attia33:01

      [laughs]

   6. RHRyan Hall33:01

      Yeah, like, there was, there was no, like, magic to that run, right? It was, like, just suffering the whole time. I was in basketball shoes. I had no idea what I was doing. My legs just felt like they just got pounded into a million little pieces, like, halfway through it. So I mean, it, it-- we had to stop multiple times. We stopped at a liquor store and got, like, a SoBe as, like, a drink or whatever, and stopped and iced my legs. And really, like, if my dad wasn't there, I probably wouldn't have made it [laughs] around the lake. But that was such a learning experience for me, now as a dad of four myself, being like, how do we respond to our kids and their crazy ideas, you know? Like, this was just some, like, crazy thing that I decided to do when I was 13, and yet look what it did. Like, it, it totally changed the trajectory of my entire life, like, completely different now, and just some crazy idea. It'd been very easy for my dad just to be like, "You know what? Let's just start with, like, a two-mile run instead of starting with a 15-mile [laughs] run," you know? But that, that wouldn't have captured me in the same way. Like, I needed a hook that was just gonna be like, "I'm forever changed," like, the tr- the trajectory of my life is never gonna be the same. Like, I needed something big like that, and, uh, I'm so glad that he didn't, like, try and gun down my ideas just like, "All right. If that's what you wanna do, let's, let's go do it." And it was like-

   7. PAPeter Attia34:14

      I, I can't imagine that pain, actually, because I had a very similar experience at a far lo- smaller distance when I was maybe 12. And I just woke up one day and I was like, "I wanna go run five miles. I wanna see how fast I can run five miles." And so I put on my crappy shoes, and I went out and I ran five miles, and it hurt so much. It hurt so much. And the next day I was like, "I'm gonna do it again." And I went out and I did it again, and it hurt so [laughs] much. And I went out and I did it the third day, and it hurt so much. And then something on the fourth day changed. And on the fourth day, I felt awesome. And then I just never stopped. Uh, you know, I just started adding more distance from there. But

8. 34:58 – 49:45

   The mental aspect of training and the power of reframing negative thoughts

   1. PAPeter Attia34:58

      when you think about how nonlinear running is, like, if I was feeling that pain at five miles, five miles is a quarter of 13 in terms of effort. So, um, [laughs] I'm gonna just... I, like, what was going through your mind at the five-mile mark, at the eight-mile mark? You know, what, what were you actu- Were you, were you thinking, "I love this pain. I love proving to myself that I can do this," or was the part of you thinking, "Why am I doing this?"

   2. RHRyan Hall35:26

      Yeah. And I mean, there were so many thoughts. That's the thing about distance running. It's really, like, what's going on in your head is hugely important, right? And so, like, now, like, when I'm training athletes on the mental aspect of it, I tell them, like, "You gotta have a whole bunch of different, like, arrows essentially that you can pull out and use." 'Cause it's like sometimes you use one thing, it doesn't work, you gotta go to something else, and it doesn't work. So I have all these different tactics in managing pain and discomfort. But, like, honestly, like, one of the biggest ones that is most helpful for me is simply turning the mind off. You just turn the mind off, and you just, like, keep putting one foot in front of the other. Like, it sounds so simple and so basic, but, like, I can tell you, like, the last 5K of the Boston Marathon when I'm in a world of pain and just trying to get to the finish line as fast as I can, there's no, like, profound thoughts going in- through here. It's just like, put one foot in front of the other as fast as you can. [laughs] Like, it's that simple, right? And it's... So in those moments, like, oftentimes I'm just like, "Turn the brain off and just keep moving. Like, just keep moving." And a lot of it's just, like, too, like, refusing to believe that you can't take one more step. Like, you get yourself-- or at least I get myself in trouble when I start thinking too far down the road. I'm like, "Oh, I still have so far to go. There's no way I could possibly do this." Like, you get overwhelmed by the, the scope of the challenge sometimes, especially when you're do- trying to do something you've never done, and that's worse than the actual discomfort you're feeling, right? It's that being overwhelmed thing is just, is not a good feeling at all, and that's, that's what makes people give up and give in. So if you can bring yourself back to the present, to what you're doing right now, what I've found is there's always enough to get me through this moment. There's not always enough to get me through, like, what's coming all down the line if I try to just, like, "I'm gonna handle all of it right now." It's like, no, just, just Just do what's right in front of you. Just handle what's this mile that you're in right now, which is why, you know, I wrote my book entitled Run the Mile You're In, 'cause just like you just gotta bring yourself back to being present in this moment, and there's always enough to get you through this moment.

   3. PAPeter Attia37:27

      O- one of the things about running that strikes me as difficult in that regard is you can't dissociate yourself from the visual cues of how much lies ahead. Um, I used to swim long distances, and there was a, there were a couple of really dogmatic rules that we had in, in ultra distance swimming, and one of them was never look up towards shore. Like, you only know you're coming to land when you start to see the bottom of the ocean, like when you're, you know... And that, you typically don't get that until you're like half a mile from shore. But this idea that you would ever lift your head up to look forward is a total disaster, and I got a really bad taste of that on a swim that I was doing. It was a training swim across Lake Tahoe. So this was not supposed to be a very difficult swim. This was a 12-mile swim, and, um, that should have taken a little under six hours. Um, but I, I didn't do my homework. I didn't hire a good boat captain, and he didn't understand the navigation. So to make a very long story short, we didn't, we didn't go across the lake. We zigzagged across the lake. And when, when we hit this five-hour mark, in my head I'm thinking, "I should only be two miles from shore." So I look up at him and I say, "How much further do we have?" And he says, "About two miles." And I say... Or maybe four miles or something. I forget what the number was, but it, it made sense. Whatever he said made sense. And then I stupidly looked towards the shore and had a mental image of what it looked like. I couldn't see the trees or anything like that. You could- you, and you couldn't make out detail. So I just put my head down and hammered for two more hour, uh, for one more hour thinking, "Okay, w- but in an hour I should see the bottom of Lake Tahoe coming up at me." And I didn't. It looked exactly the same, and I lifted my head up and it looked exactly the same, but meaning we were much further than he told me we were. And that is the closest I've ever come to, like, quitting a swim. I was mentally destroyed. And then I said, "How far are we?" And he said, "I don't know. I think like four miles." And I was like, "Come on."

   4. RHRyan Hall39:36

      [laughs]

   5. PAPeter Attia39:36

      Like, "What are you talking about? Like, you can't mess with a swimmer like..." I mean, I was so pissed off.

   6. RHRyan Hall39:42

      [laughs]

   7. PAPeter Attia39:43

      Um, but again, what did it, why was I pissed off? I was pissed off because I had an idea in my mind that was so far ahead. I wasn't in the, in the mile, right? I wasn't in that moment. And I think for runners, like, you don't have the luxury that a swimmer does to literally... You, I could swim with my eyes closed. I, I can really drown out all of that other stuff. And you gave that example of being in Beijing, and it's not just that you know you're in 60th, it's that you see the helicopter that's over the leaders, and they're a quarter mile up the road. That requires an extra level of mental fortitude in my mind to be able to run your race at that point.

   8. RHRyan Hall40:24

      Yeah. Yeah, it do- and like I said, it all comes back to getting excited, right? If you're gonna perform well, you gotta be excited about how you're doing. So it's like how can you get excite- not just, like, make it through that moment, but find something to get excited about in that moment, you know? So, um, there's so mu- I talk a lot about, like, reframing things-

   9. PAPeter Attia40:42

      Mm-hmm

   10. RHRyan Hall40:42

       ... in your mind, and that to me is like one of the most helpful things that I use all the time, right? So, like, for example, I was just doing this crazy challenge, it's called chop wood, carry water, where I split a cord of wood at my house in Flagstaff and then, uh, drove to the Grand Canyon, ran down to the bottom of the Grand Canyon holding these seven-gallon water jugs, which weigh like-

   11. PAPeter Attia41:01

       Yeah, these are the big blue ones, right?

   12. RHRyan Hall41:03

       Yeah.

   13. PAPeter Attia41:03

       I saw this on Instagram. Yeah.

   14. RHRyan Hall41:04

       They weigh like... Yeah, they weigh like 62 pounds each when they're full. So I was running down there. It's a 10K run, 6.3 mile run down to the bottom of the Grand Canyon. You drop 5,000 feet, and then got to the Colorado River, fill them up, and then farmer carry them out of the Grand Canyon. And I remember being down at the bottom and filling up those jugs and just being like looking up and r- and having just run all down that and I was like, "What did I get myself into?" [laughs] Like, the sun was already getting down super low and, uh, and that was the hardest part of the whole challenge for me was, like, just starting it out, right? 'Cause I knew, I knew what was waiting for me. I knew how far I had to go. But a- again, I try to-

   15. PAPeter Attia41:44

       So, so just to be clear, you carried, you carried 63 pounds in each hand of water up 6.3 miles at a, basically a grade of, I don't know, 7 or 8% I'm guessing, right?

   16. RHRyan Hall41:58

       Yeah. Yeah, I think it's like 7% grade. Yeah. It's like 5,000 feet.

   17. PAPeter Attia42:00

       How long did that take you?

   18. RHRyan Hall42:03

       Six hours. [laughs]

   19. PAPeter Attia42:04

       And-

   20. RHRyan Hall42:04

       Yeah, it was, it was a long one

   21. PAPeter Attia42:05

       ... help me understand what your hands were doing. Were you using grip? Did you have like wraps around your hands or something?

   22. RHRyan Hall42:12

       No. No, just, just handing it. [laughs] I have good, uh, I have good callouses on my hands from all the lifting I've been doing. But yeah, I mean, my hands took a beating, but actually interestingly is more cardio than it was strength.

   23. PAPeter Attia42:22

       Well, wait, did you, did you ever have to like put them, did you ever have to stop and put them down?

   24. RHRyan Hall42:26

       Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I can only carry them like, like 50 meters at a time, so it was a, [laughs] it was a lot of carries. Yeah.

   25. PAPeter Attia42:34

       That is, that is actually more insane than your deadlift 500 pounds, run a five-minute mile attempt, which also was super impressive, but th- what... This farmer's carry thing is ridiculous actually. That, that's-

   26. RHRyan Hall42:49

       [laughs]

   27. PAPeter Attia42:51

       That's... [laughs]

   28. RHRyan Hall42:52

       It, it was cr- it was such a crazy experience, you know? But I, I was talking about reframing, and I had to reframe a lot in that, you know? 'Cause I thought, I was like, "Oh, I think it'll take me like four hours to carry these out," and our goal was to try to beat the sun, but like I said, the sun was already like, it was like 3:00, 4:00 when we got down to the bottom. So I was just like Found myself wanting to get frustrated about how this was going, how long this was gonna take, I'm never gonna get out of here, all those thoughts are going through my mind, you know? And I just had to, like reframe it and come to peace with, like what was happening out there, and just accept it, and then get excited about it. You know? Like I was looking at the moon is coming up, it's so epic, like it was dark, all my buddies are there cheering for me, giving me food and water and stuff, and it was just such a beautiful experience. But I had to reframe it to be able to see it that way, because how I was seeing it at the bottom of the canyon was like, "Oh man, this is gonna suck. What'd I get myself into? I don't know if I can get out of here." Like, all those negative thoughts. But then as I was able to accept it and then reframe it, then I was able to embrace this really beautiful experience, and one that was life-changing for me, that, you know, I'll never forget getting to the top of that canyon and putting those jugs down, and how good it felt to like finish that thing, you know? But I had to kind of like change how I was thinking about the whole situation, which is what you have to do when you're in a race and it's not unfolding how it's, how you want it to unfold.

   29. PAPeter Attia44:12

       Well, I can relate to that on a number of my swims where things didn't go well, but you're right. It's, uh, there's something about saying, "I'm not gonna quit. I'm gonna put my head down and I'm gonna do this." Um, you, when you get to the other end, it's pretty remarkable, and I've had the ability to be, you know, coaching people when they do swims. And in, in swimming, once you touch the boat or anything, you're disqualified, so it's a very, you can have zero assistance out there. And one of the things that I learned from watching other coaches, and then I would do it with people, is whenever a swimmer says they wanna quit, I wouldn't let them do it, right? I would say, "No, no, no. I'm not gonna let you do this. You gotta give me another 10 minutes, and then we'll talk again." And if they still wanna quit, I say, "I need another 10 minutes, and then we talk." And then I make them do this three times. Um, and part of it is just to show them that they can swim another 30 minutes. So if you can swim another 30 minutes, you can probably swim another four hours or whatever the amount is. But also you realize like, and this sounds so cruel, but you also tell them, like you, you make sure they understand that what they're doing is, "You wanna quit right now. Just to be clear, you, you're, you're saying you wanna quit doing this thing right now. Is that right?" "Yes." "Okay. Well, if, you know, after 30 minutes, then fine, you can come on out." But, um, I guess there's just no substitute for that feeling of when you, when you finish. Uh, although that, that literally strikes me as the hardest physical thing I could ever imagine doing. Um, 'cause it's, it's... Say more about what the cardio struggle of that was like. Like, what... You know, you're, are you kind of in a slow jog, trot? Like, what, what kind of pace were you moving at?

   30. RHRyan Hall45:52

       Yeah, so like basically a fast walk, you know? You, you wanna make your legs and heart do as much of the work as possible, 'cause just holding that much weight in your hand becomes a, an issue, you know? Um, but really the reason why I'd say it's even harder than running a marathon is when you're running a marathon, like my heart rate's usually around 167. I have a really low heart rate to begin with.
9. 49:45 – 57:17

   The importance of fueling, and Ryan’s marathon diet

   1. RHRyan Hall49:45

      all that off 20-minute carries, but I knew what is super important in doing any kinda ultra stuff is fueling, right? So I knew, I was like, "If I take in enough calories and I stay hydrated, I'm gonna be okay. I can get through anything," right?

   2. PAPeter Attia49:57

      But how much did you need to experiment with that? Because that was, um, that was something I experimented with a lot, um, in my own very, very, very modest forms of endurance training, was learning the fuel. And, um, and, and making dumb mistakes sometimes. Like [laughs] I did this, I did this one training swim, uh, m- many years ago, um, and it was like kind of your penultimate, like it was the longest training swim I would do before the actual swim. So it was like a 24-mile swim, so I did an 18-mile was the last training swim. And someone had told me, "Hey, a really good way to avoid getting the runs is to take like," I forget what it is. Like, what's the anti-di- Imodium, yeah, exactly, it was Imodium. And I was like, well, you know, it's funny, I've never had the runs when swimming, but I'd hate to get it. I should try, I should see what happens if I take Imodium before this swim. So sure enough... And of course like an idiot, I don't just take the recommended dose, I take 2X the recommended dose. And so I'm out there, and in, in, I think at that time my regimen was 200 ML of fluid every 20 minutes. So 600 ML an hour of fluid multiplied by, I think that turned into a seven, maybe an eight-hour swim. And the last four miles, I was about to, I thought I was gonna die. Like I was so bloated. And it didn't really occur to me why, 'cause it was like, you know, eight hours earlier that I had taken the Imodium, right? Like I, I'd never put two and two together that this was the problem. So [laughs] we finally, we started in La Jolla, swam up to like, I don't know, Solana Beach, and then swam back down. And when, when we get back to shore and my friend who was guiding me pulls the kayak on the beach and I pick up the kayak to carry it with him. So I'm in the front of the kayak, he's in the back, we're carrying it on the beach. It's like this beautiful day in La Jolla. Families are playing everywhere. This kid had dug a big hole in the ground next to his sandcastle, and as we walked by it, I just went blah.

   3. RHRyan Hall52:02

      [laughs]

   4. PAPeter Attia52:02

      And I just puked, like literally it looked like eight liters-

   5. RHRyan Hall52:06

      [laughs]

   6. PAPeter Attia52:07

      ... of, of whatever it was I was drinking, like Hammer Strength something or other, like into this hole.

   7. RHRyan Hall52:12

      [laughs]

   8. PAPeter Attia52:13

      And I was like, "All right, note to self, man. Imodium, not for swims." [laughs]

   9. RHRyan Hall52:18

      [laughs]

   10. PAPeter Attia52:19

       But, but that's a dumb example. But like, um, you know, you mentioned like the amount of sugar you're consuming, but I know some athletes who li- who just cannot put sugar in. They get really sick. They have to use more complex carbohydrates. So how did you, um, how empirical were you both... Let's go back to your marathon training when it was like everything's on the line, this is your, this is your job. How deliberate were you in figuring out what was the right ratio of goo versus rice versus potato versus, you know, all of it in liquid? H- how did you figure all that out?

   11. RHRyan Hall52:52

       Yeah. We were, I mean, we were super specific with it when I was running professionally, and I think, you know, the running professionally, my experiences there carried over into this challenge, right? So, um, from my experience and a lot of our athletes' experience, like you can train your gut to take in stuff. It's when you throw new stuff at it that it's not used to when you have, you know, [laughs] adverse reactions like you were having. Um, so like for us, number one, I'm loading for two days before the marathon. So, and that was taken from like a nutritionist I was working with. He's like, "Hey, listen, like spread this load out. Like you don't wanna bloat up and like be feeling terrible the day before this race. Like load for two days leading up to it." So what that would look like is I'd eat 400 calories of carbohydrate additional to what I'd normally eat when I'm training hard, right? So I wouldn't be like, "Oh, I'm not running that much the last couple days, so I'm gonna cut down how much I'm eating." I would still eat like I was training and the 400 extra ca- uh, calories of carb. And I keep those carbs like super simple, um, 'cause you know, like a lot's going on with nerves and jitters leading up to a race, and you just wanna make it as easy on your system. Like there's a time and place for complex carbs and f- high-fiber diet and all that stuff. Like usually that's like how we're eating. But the days before a race, we're just keeping it super, super simple, right? Carbohydrate-

   12. PAPeter Attia54:05

       So for you, that was what, rice and potatoes?

   13. RHRyan Hall54:07

       Yeah, like white rice. I was big on, like, the white rice, uh, pasta. Um, sourdough bread I really like because it's lower glycemic index, um, but it digests really easy. Um, maltodextrin is a carb that I l- really like to take in. And you gotta be careful. [laughs] I've had some bad, uh, experiences with other branded stuff that's, like, s- supposed to, like s- like, I forget what it's called, like, glucose aid or one of those things. I tried that before a race. I had my athletes try it, and they had a terrible time with their stomach. So you never wanna try something new leading up to a race that you haven't tried before. So always try it in training. That's just, like, a given, you know. But, um, I love maltodextrin 'cause it's a liquid calorie, so if I'm not hungry, and it's, it's, uh, tasteless so I can mix it up with a protein powder, shake it up, shoot it down. That i- that's actually what my pre-race meal was, was a liquid meal. Because I'd wake up from all this carb loading I'm doing the day before, and I'd wake up really full and then not eat anyways. So, like, three hours before the race, take my shake with the protein powder, maltodextrin, a little bit of olive oil in there as a healthy fat to help slow things down a little bit more, and then I was, uh, taking a gel right on the starting line, sipping on water the whole time. And then we were, we would actually, how I did my bottles, and we get, so we get bottles every 5K, so we get to put them out on a table. You can put whatever you want in it. You could strap a gel to it if you want. But how I always did things is we would make them not very concentrated the first, uh, bottle, and then they'd get increasingly concentrated as the race was going on, and then they'd get decreasingly concentrated lady, later in the race. And the reason for that was, like, it's easier to absorb things when you're not as tired, right? So you kind of wanna make sure you're front loading your carb intake during a marathon because it, your body can just process it a lot easier. I mean, when you get to 40K of a marathon, like, you don't feel like taking in carbs at all. So oftentimes we grab that bottle, we take a swig of it, and then, like, it tricks your body to think it's getting carbs, right? And then we just spit it out. We wouldn't even drink it. But your body thinks, "Oh, carbs are on the way," like, and it responds like as if it's gonna get carbs but doesn't get anything. So that would give you a little jolt of energy just with 2K to go there. But typically, yeah, the, the bottles would be not as concentrated, more concentrated. We'd put a gel at 10K, a gel at 20K, and that... Uh, no, sorry, a gel at 15K and a gel at 30K, and that gel at 30K would be a caffeinated gel, again, just to get a little bit more of a hit of caffeine. We time our caffeine intake to where we're taking it also, like, 75 minutes prior to race start. Um, yeah, and caffeine's a really interesting thing to talk about. I'm, like, intrigued by that one because that was one of the things that when it came on board, it was like, oh, there's no going back. Like, I couldn't imagine doing a race without caffeine, and yet, like, people have such different experiences with it. And, uh, you know, I've learned from, like, science recently how it does, like, increase your core temperature, which is kinda detrimental to endurance activities. But the thing that's interesting is, like, that I, I understand the science behind that, but that just hasn't been my experience at all. Like, I am 100% faster with caffeine on board than without caffeine on board, and I've tried

10. 57:17 – 1:08:50

    Boosting performance with Tylenol and keeping core temperature down

    1. RHRyan Hall57:17

       both ways, you know? So-

    2. PAPeter Attia57:17

       Did you ever experiment with Tylenol?

    3. RHRyan Hall57:21

       No. No, never did.

    4. PAPeter Attia57:22

       So there's some really interesting research, and I was actually talking about this, like, couple weeks ago with Lance Armstrong. We, I don't know how it came up, but we were talking about... And same thing, like, he had never used Tylenol in the tour. Um, it's a pretty remarkable performance-enhancing drug, right? So perfectly legal, right? [laughs] WADA has not banned Tylenol to my, to my knowledge. Um, but we're talking about, like, a 1 to 2% performance boost. Uh, it's not entirely clear if it comes through the temperature reduction or the pain reduction, but, um, it was absolutely part of my stack during time trials, right? So, you know, a time trial is, like, basically an hour of threshold, right? It's, it's super painful. Um, and I, I feel like I was getting, like, a 1, 2, maybe even at times a 3% performance gain from Tylenol, and I would take like 1,000 milligrams, you know, an hour before the race.

    5. RHRyan Hall58:17

       Interesting.

    6. PAPeter Attia58:18

       So I'm cur- I was just, I'm curious if other athletes have tried that.

    7. RHRyan Hall58:21

       Yeah, no, I, I'm not familiar with other athletes trying it, but I'm definitely gonna try that with my athletes now. [laughs]

    8. PAPeter Attia58:26

       Yeah, I would, I would give it a try. And again, it's, we don't even really know how Tylenol works. So it's, for such a common medication, we don't actually understand its mechanism of action, but it is a very good medication at keeping temperature down, which is obviously its first indication is to lower, you know, for fever. Um, but it also reduces pain, and it does it in a way that's different from NSAIDs. Um, and, you know, outside of being, needing to be careful on the dose, because obviously it is a, it's a very liver toxic drug at high doses, um, but within normal amounts, like, you know, 1,000 milligrams, the, you know, it's an incredibly safe drug. And, um, it would be curious to know how, how much of a benefit your athletes would get on that and, and how much you would get from it.

    9. RHRyan Hall59:06

       Yeah, I'll try that. Is there any application to lifting? If it's keeping your core temperature down, it'd seem that'd be helpful for lifting as well.

    10. PAPeter Attia59:14

        I don't know. I haven't seen the literature on lifting. You know where I did see literature on lifting? And this is freaking hilarious. Um, this was probably, like, eight years ago. I saw some papers that looked at how Viagra improved lifting performance. So of course, I went out and got a ton of Viagra, and, um, the, in the end, I couldn't do it be- and not for the reasons that most people would imagine. Um, the reason I couldn't do it is just the symptoms. I was getting so lightheaded from it, 'cause it's a vasodilator in part. Um, and so, so I, maybe my blood pressure's, my blood pressure is not that high. It's, it's, it's actually kind of low, and so maybe I just couldn't tolerate the, the, the sort of lightheadedness that came from it. But the research was actually pretty compelling, um, at 25 to 50 milligrams of Viagra, um, boosting strength performance, and, and not just strength. Actually, if I recall, it was more of muscular endurance, not strength, actually. Um, and I, I didn't, I didn't find the difference because of the symptoms that I had because of the side effects, but that might be another thing worth, you know, experimenting with is kind of that 25 to 50 milligrams of Viagra to see what does that do as far as, um, not a mean, not a mean maximal effort, but, uh, a submaximal effort repeatedly. So probably you'd see more of that on your best 10 rep deadlift as opposed to your max deadlift.

    11. RHRyan Hall1:00:38

        Okay. That's interesting. So speaking of core temperature, have you played at all with Palmer cooling?

    12. PAPeter Attia1:00:44

        No.

    13. RHRyan Hall1:00:45

        Are you familiar with that at all?

    14. PAPeter Attia1:00:46

        No. I mean, I, I used to check my core temp before and after long swims because we had the opposite problem. We were... You're swimming in cold water, and um, so sometimes [laughs] I'd actually swim with a rectal probe just to see how lo- and, and usually your temp would drop like four, five degrees, so you'd start at 98 or 99, and I'd come out of the water at 93, 94. So that... You were getting a different... You were getting a performance detriment when your temperature went too low. So really, we really operate in this pretty narrow band of, of temperature, right? Too much and too little is, is pretty bad.

    15. RHRyan Hall1:01:23

        Right. Yeah, it's interesting. Like I've been, uh, Dr. Huberman out of Stanford, neuroscientist, he talks about Palmer cooling, so we've been playing with that a little bit. Like there's some pretty remarkable research coming out of Stanford about the effects of that, both in strength training and in the endurance space. It's a little bit harder to-

    16. PAPeter Attia1:01:38

        So how does it work?

    17. RHRyan Hall1:01:40

        So the, the best way is to dump heat, core temp through your body is through your face, your upper face, where there's no, uh, hair, and then also through your hands and the bottom of your feet. So they developed like this, uh, glove, and they've had this for years. Like this was h- there at Stanford when we were coming out.

    18. PAPeter Attia1:01:56

        Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know, I think.

    19. RHRyan Hall1:01:57

        You put your hands in this glove and it, it, you dump heat, and the thing is you don't want it too cold, right? So you don't want it like icy cold, just cool so that it doesn't, uh, dilate your vessel dilation.

    20. PAPeter Attia1:02:07

        Yeah, yeah. Or constrict. Yeah, yeah.

    21. RHRyan Hall1:02:09

        You want the... Yeah, yeah, sorry. And so then you're dumping all your heat out, brings your core temp down, and then you're good to go after that. So we've been playing a little bit with that, with like holding cold packs in your hands and, um, in between lifts, like holding cold things or putting your hands in cool water, dumping your temp, and that's, that's kind of like one thing that we're playing with a little bit more. But it makes a lot of sense to me. It's like why humans can do these, uh, persistence hunts, you know, where they go and chase down animals. It's because the animal like overheats. It's not as good at dumping temperature, whereas like humans are better at regulating temperature. So if you can keep your temperature in that kind of optimal range, in theory it should like increase your endurance as well. So yeah, there's always like, I love like exploring this stuff and trying new tactics out like that.

    22. PAPeter Attia1:02:52

        So, so when you mention this now, I do recall I have experimented with this, um, with a, what's called a cooling helmet. So I had this helmet that you, um... It had inserts into it that you would put in the freezer, so like gel packs that you would freeze, and you would put this thing on your head. So I would ride on my trainer with this cooling helmet, and it definitely made a difference, but I never... For some reason, I could never bring myself to do it like in a race or something like that. Um, but the other thing I've noticed on that effect was just this summer. So this was my first summer living in Austin, and obviously it gets super hot in Austin in the summer, hotter than I'm used to in Southern California. And, um, when I drive a race car, um, I've never used any form of cooling device before. So I always just drive like, you know, I'm... You got a fire suit on, so you have Nomex suit on, you got a race suit on, and especially when you drive a closed cockpit car, so not a formula car, you're not getting the wind as you're driving. And of course, these cars are hot as hell because, you know, these are race cars. There's no air conditioning, and you're just, you've got all this engine heat coming at you. So you really get hot, and I've always just sort of suffered through this, even though so many people I know say invest in a cooling vest. So you have these vests that run ice water around your torso, and, and also I was like, "Ah, I don't need that. I don't need that. I don't need that. I got this. I got this. I got this," and then so finally one day my friend was like, "Dude, just try it." I mean, game changer. Total game changer-

    23. RHRyan Hall1:04:24

        [laughs]

    24. PAPeter Attia1:04:25

        ... to drive a racing car with a cooling vest on under hot conditions. Um-

    25. RHRyan Hall1:04:29

        So tell me, tell me more about this cooling vest, because we play with these things as well. I c- I have kind of like the archaic ones that it's like you put it, you fill it up, it turns into gel, and then you freeze it, and it's just like, it slowly like gets back to temperature. But do these, do you actually like plug them in? How does this stay cool?

    26. PAPeter Attia1:04:44

        Yeah, this would not be great for a runner because y- it's, it would be too heavy. But so it's, it's a shirt actually, um, and it has really, really fine, you know, ca- you know, like whatever, little cables running up and down it, and it, it has a little box that runs cold water through you, up, up and down, up and down, up and down. And in the car it's easy. You just, you have a power unit. You're running it out of the car. Um, so it'd be... It, it did occur to me, like is there a way, like [laughs] if let's say the thing weighs an extra six pounds, like what would be the cost trade-off if you were on a bike with one of these things? Like could one of these things be engineered to only add like maybe four or five pounds, which would of course be detrimental on the bike, but would it offset by the performance gain you'd have? But obviously in a car it's an enormous performance booster, um, especially in closed cockpit cars. In formula cars it's not as big a deal because you don't get as hot. You, like you're getting so much air blown on you. But, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it, it bl- it blew my mind what a difference the, the temperature would make in terms of performance and, and everything. Like e- even like that night when you're done, the difference between the day you use it and the day you don't is, is the difference between feeling like you're gonna die and feeling like, "Yeah, I, I'm tired, but I'm, I'm okay."

    27. RHRyan Hall1:06:03

        Yeah, and I bet you're like mentally in a lot better place too, right? It's like when you're all super hot or super cold, like it's so easy to go mental really quick. So I bet it helps a ton for like your focus as well.

    28. PAPeter Attia1:06:14

        For, for sure. It's, it's, it's... And even little silly things like just like you're, you're perspiring less and- Even though you wear like a, a head sock, a balaclava, like, you know, anytime sweat is getting in your eyes, it's super annoying. You know, you don't... You, you, you [laughs] you wanna keep your hands on the steering wheel, so it's, uh... And anything that they can get a- get around that. But, um, so how do you implement that in a runner then? Like, obviously I can see how in strength training you can use that, but if you're training a guy to run a marathon, what- how can you incorporate any of these cooling things, uh, into the actual race?

    29. RHRyan Hall1:06:48

        Yeah. So I think part of it is, like especially for guys who train in hot and humid places, is just having it available beforehand, right? So at least, like, after you do your warmup, you do your drills and strides, you're getting your core temperature back down by doing some heat dumping with your hands, you know? Um, and then if you're doing training such as interval training, you know, you can get it in between sets. So I'll have like a bucket of cold water at the track, and just between sets, go put your hands in there, dump a bunch of heat, and then back at it. And it, it definitely s- like, I feel like it makes a big difference, you know? I feel like it's super helpful. But in terms of, like, applying it while you're actually running, that's where you gotta get more creative. So we've done things with, like, these packs that you break, you know, those instant cold packs, break those open and just hold them. And you only, you only have to do it for, like, I think, like, two minutes is kinda ideal to hold them for that long, which is kind of a long time. That's kind of a hindrance. But if it's worth the trade and you're getting the performance benefit from it, then it's, you know, maybe worth it. But, um, yeah, like I'm curious, I haven't tried the, the gloves that they have at Stanford that they use on the football team and a lot of the athletic programs. But, uh, again, like, you can't like, you know, stop your run in the middle of a race and put your hands in some cold glove. But, um, who knows, like, what the application could be. I... It just cr- it just requires somebody to get creative with it, you know, and figure out a way to make it more applicable to running. Like, when you're mentioning, like, the biking, I was like, "Oh, it'd be cool if they could make, like, somehow the handles be colder," you know, put some kinda technology in there, so then you're getting palm or cooling while your hands are on the handles, like things like that. If they could find a way to do it in a lightweight way, it could be like really powerful, you know?

    30. PAPeter Attia1:08:22

        Yeah, that, that, that's actually a great idea if it could be done, again, really light. Because these days, most bikes are, um, most bikes are coming in at below the UCI limit of whatever it is now, 14.9 pounds, so most cyclists actually have to add ballast to their bikes. You know, in the Tour de France, like most cyclists are actually adding weight to their bikes, um, to, to get them up to legal weight. So yeah, there, th- there's definitely a bit of room to play with there. I don't know how much, but, um,

11. 1:08:50 – 1:15:05

    Ryan’s early struggles and later success at Stanford

    1. PAPeter Attia1:08:50

       that, that would be, that would be pretty cool. So speaking of Stanford, that's where you go to college, right? Um, I assume you were recruited very heavily to every s- you know, top running powerhouse program there was, right?

    2. RHRyan Hall1:09:02

       Yeah. Yeah, which was cool, 'cause I was in the middle of five kids growing up, and my dad was a teacher, my mom's a stay-at-home mom, so we were always like, you know, pinching pennies. So I knew, like, part of running for me is, like, if I'm gonna go to a good college, like I'm gonna have to earn my way there kinda thing, you know? Um, so yeah, it was pretty cool to, like, be g- getting recruited all over the place. And it's funny 'cause Stanford was the one place I was like, "I'm definitely not going to Stanford," 'cause, um, you know, I, I wasn't heavily focused on academics in high school. I knew the academics, like they don't, they don't cut slack to athletes there. Like we're in it just like everyone else, you know? Like there's not a lot of special assistance going on. So I knew it'd be like academically a super big challenge for me, as well as like the athletic part, and I was like, "I don't know. I just don't wanna put myself in that kind of a challenging space." And it was, it was super challenging, like it was three years of really big struggle, and then, you know, I hit one cross country season really well, was a part of a NCAA, uh, winning team two years there in cross country. And then my s- my fourth year at Stanford, um, things just clicked, and that's the thing I love about running and fitness in general. It's like everything can be going so wrong for so long, and then yet, like when, when things start to click, it's such a good feeling when you push through, and you get to that point where it's just coming, you know? The weight's coming off the ground easy, and, um, it's such a cool feeling. That was the sensation I had during that fourth year. Me and my teammate, Ian Dobson, went one-two, um, in track, and at that point, like I was, I was having a very lackluster career at Stanford, never even been to NCAA championships in track. But again, in running, it doesn't matter, right? It's just you and the clock and the other guys out there, and everything was clicking. We went one-two in Cs, and all of a sudden it was like deals are coming in, and I had the opportunity to run professionally, and, um, same for my wife Sarah, and we, we... I was planning on coming back for a fifth year, but because things clicked so well that year, I'd seen some of my other teammates come through Stanford, have a really good fourth year, and then not do well their fifth year, and then have no contract, right?

    3. PAPeter Attia1:11:02

       Did you redshirt your freshman year?

    4. RHRyan Hall1:11:03

       So it's like a very much a timing thing. Yeah, I redshirt my freshman year. I was, like I said, I was on the struggle bus. I was hurt. I was injure- I was sick. I'd get poison oak every winter. [laughs] Like it was like the, the perfect combination of everything going wrong. I was struggling academically. I was struggling with depression. I actually left Stanford, uh, for a quarter my sophomore year. Wasn't sure if I was gonna go back, and, uh, you know, I, I thought in that s- situation that I could change what was going on inside my head and heart by changing my location. So I was like, "I'm gonna go back home, the last place everything was clicking for me, and everything was working." I was sick of the struggle, you know? And I went back home and got even more depressed, and I was like, "Well, that, that was stupid," like go back to, to where I knew I was supposed to be, and that was Stanford. So went back there, and then things gradually started to get better and, um, but yeah, I, I had my struggles at Stanford, you know? Like it was a beautiful place to go to school. Loved the people, the environment. I still like to go back and visit there, but it was, for the most part, like a, a big, big struggle in, in all areas, athletically, academically, and, uh, so yeah, the... But again, I hit it that fourth year, and then the doors came open to, to run professionally and, uh, left the farm after that.

    5. PAPeter Attia1:12:17

       W- what do you, what do you think changed and clicked? Like what, what do you think you were struggling with, uh, from a running perspective? Um, 'cause I think in high school you ran a 4.02 mile, which I, I know you wanted to break that four-minute barrier, uh, which is pretty rarefied air. It's... Isn't Jim Ryun and Alan Webb the only two to do that, or has someone else now broken four minutes, uh, for the mile in high school?

    6. RHRyan Hall1:12:39

       So yeah, at the time when I was running, there was only four guys who had done it. Um, so you had Jim Ryan, two other guys, blanking on their name, and then Alan. And, uh, you know, I was the same year, you mentioned swimming with Alan. I love Alan, like good friends with him, such a good dude. Um, but yeah, I remember watching him run 353 at pre, and it was just like, my head exploded. It was like, I can't believe I just saw that. That was just like-

    7. PAPeter Attia1:13:03

       No, that would-

    8. RHRyan Hall1:13:04

       ... out of this world

    9. PAPeter Attia1:13:04

       ... that, that was unbelievable, right? Like that-

    10. RHRyan Hall1:13:06

        Yeah

    11. PAPeter Attia1:13:06

        ... you know. And then he went to-

    12. RHRyan Hall1:13:07

        Yeah

    13. PAPeter Attia1:13:07

        ... Michigan and struggled, right? I mean, it wasn't-

    14. RHRyan Hall1:13:09

        Yeah, yeah. Yep, he struggled his sophomore year. Yeah, him and I, like have a lot of parallels. Even like the year that we both hit it big, 2007, um, he set the AR in the, in the mile. I set the AR in the half, and, um, we were, like crossing paths all the time, too. Like, I was his roommate over in Europe in 2006 when we were over there racing that summer. We were both struggling, um, for various reasons, you know. But, um, we, we both, like have very high highs and very low lows. Alan and I are pretty similar that way, you know? But he's definitely, like one of the most talented runners I've ever seen. Like, the amount of talent that guy has, he just, he, he has such a good work ethic that sometimes it comes back to bite him. Like, we'd be on the track in Europe, and he'd go, do, does his run, and then he's doing, like hurdle drills, and plyos, and all this stuff for like hours afterwards. And we're all like, have left, and we're showered up and eating, and he's like still out there grinding, right? So he just, like would be so intensely focused that, um, you know, when it was clicking, it was great, but I think sometimes he kind of overcooked himself a little bit. But, um, man, such an immense talent, and it was so cool to get to see him have his moment, you know, running 346 for the mile was... He was just, he was insane that year. He was just on fire. He was just untouchable. If, if the Olympics would've been that year, he would've been a gold medalist, like without a doubt.

    15. PAPeter Attia1:14:29

        Do you remember his Olympic trials in '04 in Sacramento when he just ran away from the field? [laughs] Like, I, you know, that's again just one of those moments I remember, 'cause that, that was actually the summer that I, I think '03 and '04 were the summers that I saw him the most at the pool. And, like you wouldn't believe that that was a 1500 in terms of the margin of victory he had over those guys, right? Like, that looked like a 5,000 or a 10K in terms of how far ahead he was of everybody else.

    16. RHRyan Hall1:14:56

        Yeah, I mean, he was so dominant. When he was on, like people weren't beating him. He was, he was impossible to beat, so he was fun to watch in his, in his

12. 1:15:05 – 1:21:32

    Keys to overcoming difficulty: faith, mindset, and being a better teammate

    1. RHRyan Hall1:15:05

       prime.

    2. PAPeter Attia1:15:06

       So what do you think changed in your senior year?

    3. RHRyan Hall1:15:08

       Oh, yeah. Yeah, we were talking about that, huh? [laughs]

    4. PAPeter Attia1:15:10

       I know, I keep distracting you.

    5. RHRyan Hall1:15:11

       Um-

    6. PAPeter Attia1:15:11

       I, I'm, I keep, I'm doing a horrible job here today. I keep taking us on these-

    7. RHRyan Hall1:15:14

       No

    8. PAPeter Attia1:15:14

       ... tangents, and I just...

    9. RHRyan Hall1:15:16

       You-

    10. PAPeter Attia1:15:16

        Yeah, this is more of a dinner conversation than a podcast, but...

    11. RHRyan Hall1:15:19

        [laughs] Yeah. No, I like it. I like it. Um, so funny thing is I'm always very concerned with the nuts and bolts of training, what I'm doing, right? That's always my focus as an athlete, and yet what I've kind of, the lesson that I've had to learn from the time I've gotten into sports since a kid until now at 39, is like, it's way more important how I do what I'm doing, meaning like my heart condition, what's going on in my head, than what I'm actually doing. So like, for example, like my tendency is to try to prove myself in training, to myself. Like, I'm not really trying to prove myself to anyone else. I just want to know I'm fit, I'm ready to go, right? So oftentimes I'll come to these workouts, and I'm racing them. It's like I'm going head down, like all out, like everything I have inside me. Oftentimes I'm going harder in training than I'm going in racing, right? And yet, like that is not the best way for my body to absorb the work. Like, I need to be making deposits, not making withdrawals when I'm training. So if I, if I go into these workouts confident in who I am, knowing the purpose of the workout, then I'm in a much better place. I'm absorbing the training a lot better. So, um, what happened, to answer your question, was my identity was all wrapped up in my performances, right? So, and that's why I struggle with depression, is I would look in the mirror in the morning. I was struggling with my running. I was hurt. I was frustrated with how things were going. I wasn't getting better, and so I just saw myself as a failure, you know? And, um, it's very difficult to have that happen every single morning. You get up, look in the mirror, failure, failure, failure, failure, you know? And so when I went back home, like my faith has always been a huge part of my life, and, uh, I, I started to realize, like I need to see myself how God sees me, and how God sees me has nothing to do with my performance, right? It's like, think about like your kids, right? Like, you don't r- really care how good they are at a certain sport, right? Like, you love them-

    12. PAPeter Attia1:17:10

        Right, it's unconditional

    13. RHRyan Hall1:17:11

        ... for who they-

    14. PAPeter Attia1:17:11

        Yeah

    15. RHRyan Hall1:17:11

        ... who they are. Yeah. And so like, can I love myself that same way, right? Oftentimes, like we're able to love other people and treat other people a lot better than we actually treat ourself in our mind, you know? And so I started to kind of get to the bottom of that and be like, you know what? Like, God loves me regardless of how I do, so I'm gonna choose on a daily basis. It wasn't a one-time thing. It's still something I have to cultivate to this day of like, I'm gonna choose to love myself regardless of how I'm performing, right? Like, what really makes me special has nothing to do with how fast I am, or how much weight I can lift, or any of those things. And as that began to sink in, it took all the pressure off myself. Like, I was just carrying around this, like heavy burden to every single workout, every single race, 'cause if I wasn't proving to myself that I was important by running fast, I was hating myself, right? And so as I took these weights off and be like, "No, actually I'm cool with who I am. Like, actually I love myself whether I have a great workout or a bad workout," that just took the weights off, and it also made me fearless, too. It's like, okay, now I can go out and just air it out, and I'm gonna fail a bunch of times, and I can live with that. I'm okay with that, right? So there's something powerful about coming to peace with the worst case scenario, and it might sound like a place you shouldn't go before a race, but oftentimes I do like to go there. I'm like, okay, like I could go out with all these African guys, go out and under 62 minutes for the, the half marathon in route to a marathon at Boston. I might blow up. It might not work out. Like, but, hey, I know I can handle that. I know I'm okay. I'm cool with myself if that happens, and I'm gonna give myself a shot to like... And I think that's what we're kind of lacking for a lot of American distance runners, is the willingness to put yourself out there, to take a big risk, and that's what the Africans, their mentality is just like, no, you just go with the lead group, and y- you, if you blow up, don't take it personally. Get up and go again the next time, right? Like, they don't take their failures personally, whereas like Americans, myself, like I take it super personally, right? If I fail, that means I'm a failure. For them, it's like if they fail, like it- That's just a part of the process. Who cares? Like, just go again, you know? So as those weights were able to come off me, I appro- my approach to workouts, to races changed. Things started to click a lot better. A big thing is I learned also, too, like, I didn't have to beat my work- my teammates in training anymore. Like, I could just work with them. I didn't have to try to drop them. Even if I could drop them, I was like, "I don't need to." Like, I'm secure in who I am, you know? So that was a huge shift, but again, it wasn't like all of a sudden, and bam, the results came. It was, like, years and years, and then it turned into something. Um, so that, that, that was really the most freeing thing I think I've experienced in my career in terms of what's going on internally that freed me up to, uh, enter into my full potential in running.

    16. PAPeter Attia1:20:00

        And despite how much of just this kind of very friendly person you are, I would imagine that you kind of alienated a lot of teammates when you came in with that mode of every workout is hammer time.

    17. RHRyan Hall1:20:13

        Yes, 100%. Like, I would go home over the summer, and usually it's supposed to be kind of like chill, base building training, right? And I would just train my brains out, and I would come back, and I would just be blasting everyone all the time. Yeah, I remember talking to now, like, one of my good friends and teammates, Ian Dobson, and he's a big reason why I did so well coming out of Stanford in my first years as a pro runner. He's like, "Dude, yeah, we used to, like, not be a fan. Like, you're just always trying [laughs] to, like... Like, you'd always come back in super good shape, and you're just always taking it to us." And, uh, and that changed, like, as I was able to work with guys. I got along a lot better with them, and I just learned, like, just communicate with people, right? Like, if I tell these guys like I'm working out with my teammates, "Hey, guys," like, "I'm feeling really good. I'm just gonna go a little bit quicker, if that's cool," like, that's a lot different than just, like, taking off without saying anything. So, like, for people who are working out in, like, group environments, like, it's crazy just how that little communication within the group can really shift things, the dynamics of the group, and make it to where, like, everyone's cool with what's happening and you're not just, like, throwing in random surges. And there's a lot of that that goes on in, in running, you know, within groups. Like, there's races and different characters and people who can't work out in groups, and it gets, it gets a little bit intense at times. But if, if the communication is there, like, guys can work together and actually make each other better.

13. 1:21:32 – 1:32:26

    Ryan’s professional running career and his discovery of his gift for marathon distances

    1. PAPeter Attia1:21:32

       So when you turned pro, is that, what, '05?

    2. RHRyan Hall1:21:35

       Yeah.

    3. PAPeter Attia1:21:36

       Um, and I think your lead sponsor's ASICS at the time, right?

    4. RHRyan Hall1:21:40

       Yep, correct.

    5. PAPeter Attia1:21:41

       So had it entered your mind yet that you would find your sweet spot in this half marathon to marathon world or were you still thinking, "You know, I'm gonna be a 5K, 10K guy"? Like, what were you thinking in '05 was gonna be, uh, the place where you would make your mark?

    6. RHRyan Hall1:21:56

       Yeah, so I never thought I'd run a marathon, right? So I grew up, like, loving the movie Prefontaine, and you know that scene where he's like, "No one's gonna tell me I'm not fast enough," [laughs] you know? But, like, the truth is, like, I wasn't fast enough. [laughs] And I wanted to be a miler, right? And kind of like what we were chatting about earlier, the importance of speed, it's like only having... I ran 50 for 400, um, in high school. Uh, but only having that kind of speed limited my upper-end potential. It... I mean, in the 5,000 meters, guys are closing in 52, so if your top-end speed is 50, like, you're gonna have a hard time closing in 52, right? So, um-

    7. PAPeter Attia1:22:32

       Your, your best 5K is, like, 13.16.

    8. RHRyan Hall1:22:36

       16. Yeah, correct.

    9. PAPeter Attia1:22:38

       And, and put that in perspective. What's the American record in the 5K?

    10. RHRyan Hall1:22:42

        Good question. Where's it at now? It's around 12.50, give or take. Yeah. So at the time, like, that was one of the faster times coming out of college. You know, things are definitely shifting a lot with, uh, you know, the new shoe technology and stuff in terms of times. Um, but yeah, at the time, like, that was a, a pretty solid run. So, and, and that's why, like, coming off the wake of that, it, I spent a year professionally just focusing on the 5K. Didn't improve at all over the 5K. My 5K stayed roughly the same. I think I ran, like, 13.20 something, s- 13.22 the next year. And, uh, the Beijing Olympics were kind of on the horizon. The trials was coming up the following year, and it's kind of one of those things where I was like, "I got to figure out..." Like, my vision for my running was always to run with the best guys in the world. In what event am I, am I gonna be most competitive in here? And you know, I'm 23 years old. I got to figure this out. And so I... There was all of a sudden an openness to longer distances, um, whereas before I'd always been, like I said, very close-minded, just being like, "I'm s- want to be a world-class miler like Alan was," you know? Um, but, uh-

    11. PAPeter Attia1:23:48

        So how many half marathons had you run before Houston in '07?

    12. RHRyan Hall1:23:52

        Zero.

    13. PAPeter Attia1:23:53

        That was your first half marathon?

    14. RHRyan Hall1:23:55

        Yeah, that was my first. I had run a couple 20Ks, which is essentially the same thing. It's like a, a K less, right? So, um, but yeah, I got worked on the track that first year, and I'll never forget, I was in London. I was racing against, um, Bekele, which was the world record holder at the time over 5,000 meters. And, uh, I remember I was coming down the back stretch of the track, and I was watching on the jumbotron Bekele and Craig Mottram, an Australian guy, finishing in this kicking duel, and I was, like, nowhere even close to him, right? And it was kind of like one of those moments of being like, "Yeah, this isn't, this isn't my best event," like a moment of realization. So then that openness allowed me to start experimenting with longer stuff. So I went home that summer, started training for some longer distance stuff, did the World 20K Championships, the US National 20K Champs, and it was clicking pretty well. And then I got into marathon training over the win- over the, the late fall/winter, and Houston was just supposed to be, like, a check-in along the way. Let's see how this marathon training is going. I was planning on debuting at the Los Angeles Marathon, um, because there weren't, like, a lot of offers out on the table having not really run a lot of longer distance races.

    15. PAPeter Attia1:25:03

        So take me back to this race in Houston, 'cause I don't, I don't think... I think I missed somewhere in there that that was actually your first half marathon, because obviously the result of that race is so out of this world that it's, it, it's easy to miss that little detail. So it's, it's the beginning of 2007, year before, you know, h- year and a half before the Olympics. You're sort of trying to figure out where you- Where you belong in this running world. You show up to Houston, it's... And at the time, the American record for a half marathon is an hour and 55 seconds. So tell me what you're thinking at the start line. What are your expectations? What are you there to prove to yourself?

    16. RHRyan Hall1:25:41

        So I had written down on my hands, this was like before the days of like a GPS watch that isn't overly cumbersome, you know? [laughs] Like, they had the big old brick ones, but not, like, little nice ones. So I was just using a Timex watch, right? And so I had written down on my hand, like, three different categories of times that I was going for. So, like, one if I was having an A day, and that was, like, just under American record pace, one if I was having a B day, which was, like, 61:30 or something, and one for, like, a C day, like 62 flat, right? And, uh, and like I said, training was just going phenomenal, like where I was blowing my own mind. It-- But more, like, it's the feeling. Like, that's what I love the most about athletics and about running and about that day. Like, I describe Houston as being like heaven and hell at the same time. It was heaven because, like, it-- I was floating the whole time. It felt easy the entire way. It was insane. Like, the coolest sensation, one of the coolest bodily sensations I have ever experienced in my life, and if I could go to heaven and experience that feeling of running like that every single day, I would. Like, it was unreal. But the reason why it was also hell, and it kind of haunted me, is, especially all throughout my running careers, I could never get back there. So it was my best mar- half marathon by far. I never broke 61 again, and I could never figure out how to go-

    17. PAPeter Attia1:27:01

        And you went-

    18. RHRyan Hall1:27:01

        ... get back to that place

    19. PAPeter Attia1:27:02

        ... you went 59...

    20. RHRyan Hall1:27:04

        59:43. And, uh-

    21. PAPeter Attia1:27:05

        Forty-three. So you, you obliterate the American record. Like, that's over-

    22. RHRyan Hall1:27:09

        Yeah

    23. PAPeter Attia1:27:10

        ... a minute off the American record.

    24. RHRyan Hall1:27:12

        Right. And so I was running, going back to the story of the race, like, the first mile I was just going out, and, you know, now we have so much science and technology and heart rate we can go off of, and, uh, we're looking at our watch a million times. But again, I'm just looking at, like, my normal Timex watch. And so I-- in-- What's happening in my mind in that first mile is I'm literally, like, going into my mind's eye, picturing myself back on Green Church Road in Mammoth where we trained, and being like, "If I was running a 13-mile threshold, could I maintain this effort that I'm currently at?" And the answer was yes, so I was just rolling with it, right? Came through the first mile, I was like 5:35. I was like, "That felt too easy. Like, I wasn't supposed to be running this fast, but that just felt too easy, so let me just, like, notch it down a little bit more at an effort that I kn- again, going back in my mind's eye, I know I can hold this effort to the finish." And the next mile was, like, 5-- 4:32, and then the next mile was, like, 4:28, and I was just, like, starting to scare myself a little bit. I was like, "Okay, like, let's not screw this thing [laughs] up. Like, obviously you're gonna have a heck of a day today." No one else is around. Like, Meb's in the race and all those guys. Like, from the very first mile, it's just me and the roads, right? But it didn't even matter. Like, I was so mentally clicked in, and, like, everything was just firing. It was just, like, all how it was supposed to be, right? Like, the most magical sensation, like, I've ever had. And, uh, and so I just kept pushing and just, again, like, it's waiting for it to get hard almost, and it never, never did. Like, I had one issue out there around mile nine where my stomach got a little bit turn-y, 'cause over a half marathon we're not taking in any fluids if the weather's right, the cool conditions, and it was a nice, cool, perfect day to run in Houston that day, flat course, and so I wasn't taking in anything. Around mile nine, my stomach got a little bit upset and, you know, that passed a couple min- minutes later. But literally, like, it was, it was easy the entire way. Like, I, I'm still super curious, you know, if I had pacemakers and if that was a full marathon, what I could've run that day, 'cause, um, you know, I got myself back in really good shape, but never that kind of shape over half marathon again. And, uh, and looking back on it, that's why, like, I'm such a big proponent of speed now, right? It's like I had spent not just the last year focused on 5K development. I had spent my entire running career, from the time I was 13 for 10 years until I was 23, working on speed, working on fi- And then all of a sudden I piled on marathon training, where I'm hitting longer thresholds, a higher volume than I've ever done before, and bang, there it is, right? And so that's why that 5K speed, like, I can't emphasize it enough with my athletes I'm coaching now. Like, you just, you have-- The further away I got from that 5K fitness, the harder the half felt, the harder the marathon felt. But, uh, that day in Houston, it was just, it's like a warm knife through butter all day long.

    25. PAPeter Attia1:30:01

        When you crossed that finish line, um, did you feel like, "You know, I actually could've gone a little bit harder"?

    26. RHRyan Hall1:30:09

        Yeah, that's interesting, right? 'Cause I'm talking about how easy it felt, yet, like, I wasn't, like, leaving anything in the tank necessarily, you know? Um, so I, I felt like I was running as hard as I ran in practice, but, I mean, if you watch, go back and watch, like, YouTube video of me, like, I didn't... And that's why, like, when people do, like, Kipchoge breaking two, like, he didn't look crazy tired after that, right? But there's also, you get this huge hit of adrenaline when you come across the line, do something like that. Like, breaking 60 was kind of a lifetime goal for me, and then to go and do it my first marathon. And, like, Peter, it was crazy, too. Like, so my parents were on the lead vehicle. My wife was on the lead vehicle. My agent, my coach, they're all on the lead vehicle. So I'm literally staring at them the entire race, and they're not allowed to cheer or anything, but, you know, like, any athletic performance that I've done, like, I was just a piece of the puzzle, right? Like, it wasn't all me. Like, my mom, like, she provided the safe place for me, my refuge every time I would come back all rattled because I had a bad workout or got hurt or whatever. Like, she was like, she provided that home that provided that refuge. My dad was my coach. My wife was there for me through the depression at Stanford and all the times, all the good, all the bad, you know? And so staring at the people who are your team the entire race was, like, hugely emotionally empowering for me as well, you know? So I'll never forget, I was actually-- They, they get to the finish line, the lead car. They kinda zip up the road a little bit, but they drop- ... um, my parents and Sarah, my wife, like 200 meters before the finish line and, but they have to, like, they're, like, running back to try to get to the finish before I get there. So I'm coming down [laughs] the finishing stretch, and I see my mom just, like, booking it, [laughs] like, trying to make it to the finish line before I get there, and, uh, I actually passed her. She didn't make it, so, like, if you look closely in some of the... They might have blurred her out in some of the pictures, but, like, she's in the back, like, sprinting behind me. Uh, but yeah, I'll never forget, like, coming across the finish line, giving my parents a big hug, giving my wife a big hug, my coach, and it was kind of this, the sensation of, like, we did this, you know? Like, it wasn't so special 'cause I felt like I'd done anything incredible, but it was like we all did this thing together, and it was just, just an amazing lifetime, you know, moment

14. 1:32:26 – 1:39:45

    Reflections after breaking the American half marathon record, and challenges faced by retired athletes

    1. RHRyan Hall1:32:26

       that I'll never forget.

    2. PAPeter Attia1:32:27

       Now, from a professional standpoint, how much did your life change in that moment? Because that really put you on the map as America's great hope for the marathon in 2008, right?

    3. RHRyan Hall1:32:37

       Yeah, I mean, it was, it was huge. I went from, you know, like, a guy who was decent on the track, NCAA champs. I had a little bit of credentials behind me. That put me inside of the top 10 all-time performers over half marathon, so it was kind of like all of a sudden this mo- realization of like, "Oh, dang, like, I have a chance at this. Like, I have a chance at medaling in Beijing." Like, I, and all, there was just the excitement of, like, I found it. Like, I felt like I'd been hitting my head against a wall for so long with the shorter distance stuff. Just wasn't quite clicking, right? Like, it just wasn't quite me, and that day in Houston, it was like, "This is what I was created to do," right? And I think it's, we all have this kind of experience in life where we're kind of searching out, like, "What am I here for?" Like, "Why was I created?" Like, "What is my giftedness?" When you find, like, that area where you're like, "This is why I'm here. This is how I was m- made to... This is what I was made to do," right? It's kind of that moment of like, "Whoa, like, this is, this is it. This is my thing," you know? And it did, like, create a little bit more of, heighten my own expectations, you know? Like, after that, like, I never showed up at another race thinking I couldn't win or, um, not having high expectations for the race, you know? So that, that was maybe a little bit of a harder thing for me to manage. Um, but it was just more than anything just a cool moment of, like, realizing, like, now I'm, I'm in the club, you know, with, with the best guys in the world.

    4. PAPeter Attia1:34:04

       I think you said it really well, right? Which is this was heaven, this was hell, and I, I, the hell part of that is something that I've, I've always observed great athletes with, uh, with a, with just a, a tincture of sadness too because, um, the stage on which you compete is the most brutal stage because it's the one for which you have the shortest, um, half-life, right? So, um, [clears throat] you know, when you say like, "This is what I was meant to do," on the one hand, most of us cannot even relate to what you're talking about, right? Like, I can't relate to being the best in the world at anything, anything. I couldn't relate to being the best, the best, the 1000th best person in the world at anything, anything, right? Physical, not physical, doesn't matter. Um, but now when you take that thing that is your gift and you acknowledge that, well, actually it's something that is very fleeting, right? Like, there's a very narrow window in your life in which you get to be really good at this, and by the way, as a runner, technically it's a day, right? Like, you're going to have a single best run, and you don't necessarily know when it's going to be. You might be very good for a decade, but there's really going to be a time when you look back and say, "That was the best I could ever do." Obviously, for the half marathon, we know when that day was. Four years later, it would be your best marathon of all time. Um, but I think for some people, I, I would imagine at least, that makes being a retired athlete or an athlete who's passed his or her prime a very difficult process. Um, do you talk with your athletes about that even though they're on the upswing, right? They're, they're in the part of the, you know, "Hey, I want to get better, I want to get better," but do you s- spend any time with them talking about, "Hey, this... First of all, enjoy this like crazy because it's going to be gone, and it's going to be gone probably by the time you're 30, and you have the rest of your life to not be the best at this thing. Um, and secondly, here's how you can prepare for that"?

    5. RHRyan Hall1:36:05

       Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I talk a lot with my wife about that 'cause she's 38 turning 39 in April, and she's actually running the best stuff she's ever run still, which is incredible and I think speaks to, like, why women age better [laughs] than men in a lot of ways. Um, but what was really impactful for me at the end of my career was this moment, I was in an airplane, I was looking out over everything and just trying to get clarity about what was going on 'cause I'd just been through four years of massive struggle, right? And what I felt like, I was just kind of like having a little prayer sesh with God, and what I felt like, what I was sensing is just this rem- reminder that it's not meant to last forever 'cause I think, like you're saying, Peter, it's like when you're in it, you feel like it is gonna last forever and it is supposed to last forever, but that's actually, though, like, what makes life so beautiful, right? Is that, like, nothing lasts forever, right? That's, like, what makes the sunset so beautiful. It doesn't just stay in the sky forever. It's what makes life so special because it's not just gonna go on forever, right? So, um, having that moment of realization that this, it, it's okay for it to not last forever. It's okay that, like, that was my day, and I, I did, I savored it for everything it's worth, right? And that's absolutely what I tell my athletes as well, like, savor every second of it, right? But life is gonna change. You're gonna enter into new seasons, and life is beautiful every single day all around you, right? So, like, having this perspective of like, yes, this is very important, this is what we're going after, but, like, true beauty is around us all the time if we have the eyes to see it and the ears to hear it. And so, like, e- Removing ourself from performance some ways can be super, super helpful, not only as we transition out of sport, but even when we're in sport, and just being like, "This is something that is adding to my life. It is not my life," right? And like I can have this day in Houston, have this very beautiful experience, this very magical day, but I can actually just go for a walk outside my house and look at the trees and look at the sun and the stars and be outside in the moon and get the same kind of like gratitude for life just by simply entering into nature and being fully present in it, you know? So, um, I've definitely, like my perspective has changed. I was for a long time just all wrapped into this performance, performance, performance, performance, you know? And, uh, it's, it's easy to be that way, and I do enjoy going after performances. I love like seeing growth, seeing change in the body, seeing adaptation, um, going after big goals. Like I love, that's still very much who I am, and I think that's something that helps people transition out of the sport. A lot of people talk about having a sense of identity loss when they stop doing whatever their sport is. But for me, like I had to figure out, how do I stay true to who I am? Because running was just an expression of who I was, right? Um, and it, it was like my painting, right? But now like I have to find another mechanism to express who I am. So I'm doing that like in the lifting space and these crazy challenges that I'm doing. I'm still like finding a way to express myself, and I think that's what as humans, like we want to have that experience, right? Like we're here for a reason, and we wanna express ourself on our canvas, whatever it might be. And when you lose that ability to be able to express yourself, that's when things can get dark pretty quick, right? So like for people, for my athletes who are transitioning out of the sports, being like, okay, like how do you stay true to who you are? Like I love physical challenge. I love seeing growth, and so I'm gonna express it now through lifting, and that's gonna come to an end at some point, and then I'm gonna find another way to express it. But I think as long as we're continually finding ways to be ourself and to express ourself, we're gonna be happy

15. 1:39:45 – 1:49:08

    Ryan’s marathon training regimen at the Mammoth Track Club in 2010

    1. RHRyan Hall1:39:45

       individuals.

    2. PAPeter Attia1:39:47

       In some ways, your experience post this amazing breakthrough in the half marathon is kind of paralleled in, in a way with what happened in 2011, right? So and you go into Beijing in '08, in some ways with the expectation of the running world on your shoulders, like you're, you're going to medal in the marathon. Your trajectory has been unbelievable. We talked about that race, tenth place finish, still very impressive, especially the way in which you did it where you went out a little tentative and then had to kind of, you know, try to reel people back and go from sixtieth to tenth. Um, now let's fast-forward. It's 2011. W- How were you feeling going into the Boston Marathon that year? Was there... What was it about your training that led you into that race so poised to do so well?

    3. RHRyan Hall1:40:33

       Yeah, so I, I had a big transition. So I was training up in Mammoth, and in 2010, um, left the Mammoth Track Club. And again, like a big part was like my faith was inspiring that decision. Like I've always just been a super spiritual person, have a ton of respect from people of every faith, tradition, and background, you know? Um, but for my own journey, like I just love that part of life, that spiritual dimension, you know? And I was just really desperate to experience God in some way, right? So decided to leave the Mammoth Track Club and essentially like have God as my coach, but really that just looked like, like me spending a lot of time in prayer trying to connect with God. And, um, again, that's where I got this kind of like revelation. It's not about what I do. It's about how I do what I do. Like that came from that season. So I kind of went through the season, and then I was kind of experimenting with some new styles of training that I'd never done before, and again, like new stimulus always is helpful for the body, right? So I'd been kind of in the same routine, the same, doing the same structured training, and there's little variations and of course-

    4. PAPeter Attia1:41:34

       Tell me a little bit about that because o- one of the things my wife actually insisted on today, and I'm not doing a good job of it, though I promise I will, is she, my wife's a runner, and she really wants to know every detail about your training. And so maybe we can talk a little bit about it here in the pre-transition, so i.e. in the 2010 Mammoth days. Kind of what's your volume? How did you warm up? How much body work were you doing? What kind of stretching, all of that sort of stuff? Like what were the tempo runs like? And then I'm curious to hear what that looked like when you basically became self-coached, right? Post, post that departure.

    5. RHRyan Hall1:42:08

       Yeah, so it's pretty simple, you know? It's like, uh, just to lay out like a s- quick sample week, like every Tuesday I'm doing interval sessions where you're working on that kind of like 5K specific kind of speed. Um, things like six by mile, 10 by K, uh, 800 meter repeats, 400 meter repeats. I've kind of since like gravitated more towards shorter distance repeats, 400s, 200s, things like that. I think that's r- way more important for marathoners, 'cause you kind of want a lot of differential between how fast those Tuesday intervals are compared to your like Thursday or Friday threshold.

    6. PAPeter Attia1:42:41

       Prior to your departure when they were one mile repeats and 1K repeats, um, let's say the main set was 10 by a, a kilometer or six by a mile. That's the main set. What's the warm-up? How do you go from, like when you arrive at the track, what's the first thing you do?

    7. RHRyan Hall1:42:57

       So we do like 20-minute easy jog, and then we'd come back, do some like dynamic flexibility or maybe some static stuff, but not a lot of static stretching going on. Stretching has not been a huge part of like my, my running at all. You actually want some tension in your legs. Think about it like your muscles being springs. Like if there's some tension, a, a, a tightly wound spring's gonna respond to the ground quicker, right? Compared to like a slinky that's super slow. So you actually want a certain amount of tension, healthy tension. You want full range of motion, but so we're doing lots of like mobility work to get that full range, but keeping some tension in the legs. So not a lot of static stuff.

    8. PAPeter Attia1:43:31

       And that 20-minute jog for you is what pace? That's like eight-minute mile? I mean, how slow?

    9. RHRyan Hall1:43:36

       Yeah. Yep. Kind of like that eight-minute mile pace kind of range. Kind of just like let your body do what it wants to do, but no effort, right? You're not breathing hard. You're conversational the whole time. Get back, you do that dynamic flexibility and stuff, go into some drills and strides. And I have videos of all this on my YouTube channel, Run Free Training YouTube channel if people are curious to check it out. Um, but drills and strides before maybe like th- it takes like 5, 10 minutes to do that. The strides are maybe like six times 100 meters, something like that. And then change shoes into your racing shoes, and then straight into the workout.

    10. PAPeter Attia1:44:10

        And then you would do, let's say it's a six by a mile, how fast would you run that mile? So if your, your half marathon pace would be a 4:32-ish, your marathon pace would be a 4:42 to 4:45, how much faster do you need to run that mile?

    11. RHRyan Hall1:44:26

        So yeah, if we're doing it up at altitude, I would typically be running right around that kind of 4:30 pace at 7,000 feet. Um, so if you're down at sea level, that's kind of equivalent to like 4:20-ish, maybe a tad bit under. So that, the six by a mile and the, the Ks, that's more of like 10K specific workout. Um, but again, I would kinda gravitate more towards like 5K specific stuff, um, a little bit quicker.

    12. PAPeter Attia1:44:50

        How much rest in between each set?

    13. RHRyan Hall1:44:52

        So with the miles we'd keep it fairly tight, like 90 seconds to two minutes. Again, kinda depends. It's like you- when you're at altitude, you take a little bit more rest. But it's crazy, like, and you know, as you get fit, like you recover super fast, so. Um, and the intensity, you know, it's like we're not doing like max sprints where those guys gotta take like 10 minutes between sprints, right? Like, we're very much... Like when you're doing that 10K range, i- ideally you're running an effort you should be able to hold for 10K, and you're stopping at a mile, so you're not like killing it, you know? So anywhere between 90 seconds and two minutes on the rest.

    14. PAPeter Attia1:45:24

        Walking during the 90-second recovery or standing still?

    15. RHRyan Hall1:45:28

        Yeah.

    16. PAPeter Attia1:45:28

        You're walking.

    17. RHRyan Hall1:45:29

        Kinda sometimes we're like walk jogging, just like slow walk jog. Kinda depends, like I like doing in and out kinda intervals too. Um, that was like one of Prefontaine's workouts where he'd do like 200 meters fast, 200 meters kinda moderate. So the moderate part would be at like eight minute pace or even faster, like s- like seven-minute pace, and then the fast part is at like goal 5K pace or slightly slower than mile pace even. So there's d- a lot of different ways, variations that we take on those workouts.

    18. PAPeter Attia1:45:56

        And what would be the cool down at the end of that main set?

    19. RHRyan Hall1:45:59

        And then a 20-minute cool down. And then, uh, and then the whole day, you know, we're just spent like resting, doing some mobility work, eating, um, ice bathing, which, you know, it's funny, like the, the science on the ice bath has changed quite a bit. Like we would go from these workouts and long runs straight to the creek, straight into cold water, whereas, you know, the science is now showing you want your body to respond to the inflammation first. So that's more what we do now, where we wouldn't do an ice bath. I don't, we don't do a ton of ice baths in general, but there's a whole bunch of other good positive effects of ice bathing, like dopamine going up tenfold and all this stuff, you know?

    20. PAPeter Attia1:46:35

        Right. It, it can have some antidepressant effects. Um-

    21. RHRyan Hall1:46:37

        Right

    22. PAPeter Attia1:46:38

        ... and, and would you be doing two workouts on that day or one?

    23. RHRyan Hall1:46:42

        So yeah. So then we'll come back in the afternoon, just like a 30, 35-minute easy run, and then go straight to the weight room and then do our leg lifting. So that's, that's a mistake I see a lot of runners make, is you want all your leg stressors to be on the same day. And it's not what you feel like doing. Like you don't feel like doing weights after doing a hard run, but you do the hard run first, and then ideally you come back in the afternoon. You could do it right after the hard run, but you probably won't get quite as much out of it, 'cause you're bringing fatigue into the lifting. If you space it out a little bit more, you usually feel better during the lifting. Um, so yeah, we do our hard leg session in the afternoon, and then, uh, and then head home, eat, early to bed. I always describe my life was, uh, more of a professional sleeper than a professional runner.

    24. PAPeter Attia1:47:24

        [laughs]

    25. RHRyan Hall1:47:24

        Like honestly, I was just sleeping all the time. I would book out every single day from 1:00 to 3:00 PM would be my business meeting, and so no calls, nothing scheduled during that time, and those were just two-hour naps every single day.

    26. PAPeter Attia1:47:37

        [laughs]

    27. RHRyan Hall1:47:38

        So the, the sleep... And that's the thing, it's like we-

    28. PAPeter Attia1:47:39

        So what were you sleeping, like 10 hours a day between the nap and night?

    29. RHRyan Hall1:47:43

        Yeah. Yeah, probably right around there. I'm like, I'm probably in bed for nine to 10 hours every night. But, uh, there'd also be some restlessness from the hard training and, and m- honestly maybe even from sleeping too much, you know? I wasn't very sleep deprived. So sometimes I'd wake up in the middle of the night, be starving, go get some, a snack, get back in bed, lay there and awake for an hour or two, and then fall back asleep. But just, you want... It's like, like the Kenyans, the Ethiopians, they spend a ton of time off their feet as well, right? So it's like when you're not training, you're trying to not be doing anything. So we're like, uh, runners, pr- pro runners are very lazy people, like from day to day. Like we don't go for walks or hikes or do anything. It's just train, eat, sleep, stay off your feet, like, and you're always aware of that energy expenditure. You're trying to save as much as you can for your training.

    30. PAPeter Attia1:48:33

        I, I remember in high school, I grew up in Canada, and so we had a lot of really amazing Jamaican runners. Uh, of course they were sprinters. And they used to just tease each other so much because they'd be like, they'd be like, "Look, we are the laziest people you will ever meet, and if you wanna make us run faster, just put a couch at the finish line. Like whoever can get to the finish line first gets to lay on that couch."
16. 1:49:08 – 1:54:45

    Optimal body weight for competition and the pros and cons of going below your natural weight

    1. PAPeter Attia1:49:08

       as you probably know, cyclists have to work v- very hard deliberately to calorie restrict, and often they show up, you know, to, you know, major tour events, right? So not the one-day classic stuff, but when you're thinking about the Tour de France, the Giro, the Vuelta, these sort of huge stage races, you know, they're very depleted, right? They're showing up, um, you know, like they're trying to be as light as possible. Everything comes down to this one single metric that I think running doesn't quite have, but in cycling you have this thing called watts per kilo. Everything is watts per kilo. If you lined up all the cyclists at the beginning of the Tour de France and you could know what everybody's threshold was in watts per kilo, that would predict the order they would finish, barring a strategic, you know, mishap or an injury or an accident. Um, how deliberately were you watching your weight during this period of time, or were you basically just saying, "I could eat as much as I wanted and my weight would basically float to a level that I was happy with"?

    2. RHRyan Hall1:50:10

       Yeah, no, I mean, I was very specific with it. And, you know, preface all this with just saying, like, it's not the most healthy lifestyle, right? Like, doing what I was doing, training at the level I was doing wasn't optimal for my health. Like, my testosterone was clinically low every single time I tested it, right?

    3. PAPeter Attia1:50:26

       How low?

    4. RHRyan Hall1:50:27

       In the 100s, like 150, something like that.

    5. PAPeter Attia1:50:29

       Oh, so you had the testosterone of a woman.

    6. RHRyan Hall1:50:31

       Yeah, [laughs] yeah.

    7. PAPeter Attia1:50:32

       Yeah.

    8. RHRyan Hall1:50:32

       Yeah. Which is really interesting. Like, how do you run so fast with such low testosterone? I don't understand that.

    9. PAPeter Attia1:50:38

       Yeah, I, I, when I finished residency, my testosterone was in the 220s. So that's like throughout... And so it was probably in the low 200s throughout all of residency, and not because of training, just because of sleep deprivation and a whole bunch of other factors. But, uh, wow, I, I, that's... 100s is staggeringly low.

    10. RHRyan Hall1:50:57

        Yeah. And it would, it would kinda come back up when I take these two-week breaks, right? So going back to the weight thing, I would take-- I would get down to... Ideally, I raced my best at 137. I got... I'm 5'10". I got down as low as 127.

    11. PAPeter Attia1:51:11

        Oh.

    12. RHRyan Hall1:51:11

        But I wasn't-

    13. PAPeter Attia1:51:12

        God

    14. RHRyan Hall1:51:12

        ... if, if, if I was less than 137, I was getting worse, which is really interesting, 'cause I was on Lance's podcast, and we were chatting about this, and, uh, he said he didn't ever feel like he could get too light, whereas I was much the opposite. If I was under 137, it was, it was not good for me at all.

    15. PAPeter Attia1:51:28

        Lance was a really big cyclist for, for, for his type of racing. I mean, Lance's race weight was, like, 160 to 165, um, which for a guy who's 5'9", 5'10", that's quite a lot of weight for a, for a, for a guy who was such a good climber. Um, and I think today we see guys being quite a bit lighter in the, in the, in that group. Like, I think a, a GC contender today is, God, probably, like, 140 pounds. You know? 5'9", 140 would be a great cyclist build. Um, so for you to be... So if, if you're, if you're optimal... Which by the way, 137, that still strikes me as crazy light, but if you're 137, were you managing up to that weight or down to that weight?

    16. RHRyan Hall1:52:19

        Down to that weight. So, so yeah, I'd take these two-week breaks where I wouldn't run at all, and literally it was like donut eating competition for two weeks straight. [laughs] And so I would, I'd literally put on, like, over 10 pounds in, in that two-week period, and I hated myself for doing that. Like, it wasn't good for me emotionally or mentally, but it worked every single time for my buildup. So again, I'm not saying, like, athletes should do this, right? But my problem was I was getting so lean and so light, I, I should have taken a more healthy approach to putting on weight, to being good to my body, shifting my macros around during that time off, a- and doing it in a healthy way, not with a bunch of crap like I was doing. Um, but I'd put on those 10 pounds, 12 pounds, get up to, like, 150-ish, and then it'd be like a six-month gradual reduction in body weight to where I'd get to that 137 just, like, a couple weeks before my competition, and then I was, I was good to go. But also too, like, I think it's highly specific for athletes. So like, like I said, I'm in the middle of five kids. My brothers who aren't athletic, like, walk around at, like, 165 to 170, so that's probably where my natural body weight should be, somewhere right in that range. And so I was trying to get down to weights that were pretty far from my normal, right? So and that's why it was, like, pretty unhealthy for me to be, and why I couldn't stay down in those 137s, 140s for very long, 'cause I would just get super, super run down, my motivation would go down, my training would go to crap. So you know, I was, uh, again, if someone is more naturally made to be a marathoner, smaller frame, sits already, like their normal body weight would be... Like my wife Sarah, like she sits around, like, 110-ish year-round, but even if she wasn't running, she'd probably be about the same weight, right? So she can sit at that weight year-round no problem, whereas for me, like, it's not healthy for me to be down at 137, so I have to come back out of it. So that's where it's really important for people to just know their body and where it should naturally be, and then realizing, okay, if you're gonna manipulate it down to a range where you're the fastest and the lightest at, you gotta come back out of that as well.

    17. PAPeter Attia1:54:25

        Yeah, my wife's the same way. Sure, her walk-around weight is 110, 111, and she has to work to maintain that weight as opposed to, um, do anything else, and, uh, I, I think that's probably why she's just a good runner is it's just she's naturally so light that, uh, uh, it, it, it comes to her easily in that regard. Um,

17. 1:54:45 – 1:59:12

    Training volume, importance of mixing up the intensity level, and zone 2 and zone 5 for longevity

    1. PAPeter Attia1:54:45

       so tell me what volume, what was your weekly mileage when you were still training with Mammoth?

    2. RHRyan Hall1:54:51

       So it was probably... You know, again, this was, like, pre-Garmin days. It was probably around, like, 110 or so. Um, I thought it was more than that, but then we got Garmins and started measuring a lot of the loops we were doing for our easy running. We're like, "Oh, these aren't nearly... They're, like, a mile shorter [laughs] than we thought." So it was probably a little bit less than I thought. But those easy days are just chill, and then I think this is the other mistake that a lot of runners make, is they're just kind of running the same all the time. And that will get you to a certain level, right? Like, there's a place for that, but if you really wanna see how good you can get, you've got to, like, have your hard days super hard and your easy days super chill. So, like, oftentimes, like, you know, like I said, I'm running 12 miles under five-minute pace, and then the next day I'm coming back and running, like, 8:30 pace for a easy run, just super, super chill and slow. So having that kind of variance between pacing I think is super important. I mean, it's, it's not really rocket science, right? It's like you stress the body, you rest the body, it adapts, and then you keep repeating the cycle over and over.

    3. PAPeter Attia1:55:49

       It's not rocket science, but, uh, you, I mean, if there's one thing that I spend a lot of time talking about with my patients when it comes to this particular aspect of training, it's, um... And again, this isn't to train them for, to become competitive athletes, but it's important from a physiologic standpoint as we think about longevity. It's most people are training in this garbage zone Where it's too high in intensity to build a true aerobic foundation, and too low in intensity to truly stress the body glycolytically. So, you know, we talk about it in zones, right? So there, we think zone two is how we describe it, and this is, we d- we define it by lactate metabolism. So zone two is that all-day pace. Lactate has to be below two millimolar. You have to be ab- this is a pace you should be able to hold all day from a metabolic standpoint. You probably can't hold it all day from a muscular and structural standpoint, but metabolically, you should be able to hold this pace all day. Um, and that's easier than, you know, people are used to training. Um, and then at the other end of the spectrum, there's like gotta be this real push pace, kind of your four by four pace, right? Four on, all out, four off, and most people aren't used to that level of discomfort. So they're kind of in this no man's land. So they're suffering two problems. One, they're in a physiologic no man's land, and two, there's no variability to it anyway. Um, so even though you say it's obvious, I, I think it's important for people to hear this discussion, 'cause I don't, I don't think enough people understand both for performance and also longevity, why you have to be at the more extremes of kinda zone two, zone five is where the progress comes.

    4. RHRyan Hall1:57:31

       And one, one kind of like easy way to help manipulate the system a little bit is if you're a coffee drinker, you talked a little bit about caffeine, but like we'd only have caffeine before our hard days. And then so the easy day, like you feel like death. Like [laughs] you're tired from the workout, but also because you don't have caffeine on board, and you- you're just kinda forced to take it really slow. Like, you don't feel like you could run fast if your life depended on it. So y- if you're trying to... Like, a lot of the clients we're working with are run free. It's like not reasonable for them to not have any caffeine on the day, but we're like, "Let's at least manipulate it," so you're having it more so before the hard workouts, and then a lot less on the easy days.

    5. PAPeter Attia1:58:09

       And, and there are some athletes I'm sure you've seen that don't really get a benefit from caffeine. Like, I never got a benefit from caffeine. And to this day, like I can drink coffee at any time of day, has no bearing on my sleep. So I get no up from it. I get no down from it. I just... I could drink three coffees a day for a month and then stop, experience no headaches, no withdrawal, not even notice it. Um, and, and there are different, uh, genes that are responsible for caffeine metabolism, so, so people do sort of vary in that, but I've always been incredibly, um, envious of the people who are very sensitive to caffeine, because it's an awesome tool to have in your toolkit for just this purpose, but also just for wakefulness and overcoming jet lag and travel and stuff like that.

    6. RHRyan Hall1:58:55

       Yeah, yeah. When used correctly, it can be super helpful. Of course, like when abused, and if you're sensitive to it and you're drinking it later in the day and it screws up your sleep, then it's, you know, stops being helpful. But yeah, yeah, it's interesting. It's like, like I was saying, everyone's an experiment of one, right? So that's why you gotta just play with stuff till you find what works for you.

18. 1:59:12 – 2:04:39

    The most impactful adjustments Ryan made to his training leading up the to 2011 Boston Marathon

    1. PAPeter Attia1:59:12

       So once you became self-coached, did you, how did the workouts change? What did you do leading up to 2011 Boston in terms of volume, intensity, and everything else?

    2. RHRyan Hall1:59:22

       So one of the big adjustments I made, I started spacing things out. So I don't think I finished the week. So we had the intervals on Tuesday, you know, and then like a long threshold on Friday. So you get two easy days before that, so you're feeling a little bit better for that threshold. And trying to really-

    3. PAPeter Attia1:59:35

       And tell me about the threshold. Threshold is a constant, it's like a simulated slightly higher than race pace, shorter distance?

    4. RHRyan Hall1:59:42

       Yeah. Yeah, and it gets more towards race pace as it gets longer. So we'd grow those out. You're starting out at maybe like five or six miles, and then you get to where you're doing 15 miles straight without stopping, and I would do three of those every single 12-week build-up for a marathon, which that would be a very typical build-up for a marathon, about 12 weeks, and I make sure I get three of those long thresholds in. And those were my biggest indicator workouts. It's kinda like whatever I knew I could hold for 15 miles in training in the context of hard training, right? So it's not like you don't fully taper for this workout and just bang the heck out of it and be like, "Oh, I can run this for a marathon." It's like, no, your legs like need to be a little bit fatigued. You need to be in the middle of hard training. But then generally speaking, whatever you can run for that 15-mile threshold, you can hold for a marathon, which is also kind of like mind-blowing and hard for first-time marathoners to believe that. 'Cause you're like, "How do I go 11 more miles at this pace?" But that's the magic of tapering, the energy out on the course, the carb loading, all that stuff. Like, y- your body finds a way to be able to hold that through. So that, that 15-mile threshold or that threshold of varying distances on Friday, and then Sunday coming back with a long run. So again, you're doing that long run with a little bit of fatigue in your, in your legs. That'd be anywhere from an hour 45 to two and a half hours. But during that time, we're c- and we would go off time, not distance. But we're covering, I, sometimes I'd be running over the marathon distance for two and a half hours, right? So those are, those are high-quality efforts. Oftentimes, it's kinda like medium pace, so say maybe six-minute pace for the first half of that, and then the second half of that we're doing like fartlek style running, where you're practicing changing gears on tired legs, and just hitting that aerobic end a little bit harder towards the end of it. But a lot of it is just like mentally learning, like, how do I turn my legs on when I feel really dead when I'm 25 miles into this race? How do I, what cues can I go to, to turn things on and, and to change gears here? 'Cause it's, it, it doesn't matter if you're running six-minute pace or eight-minute pace. When you get 20 miles into your run, you feel tired, right [laughs] ? And so you gotta just learn like, okay, what mental cues can I pull on here to, to turn everything on?

    5. PAPeter Attia2:01:53

       Okay, so but everything you just described was how you were doing it before 2011?

    6. RHRyan Hall2:01:58

       Yeah.

    7. PAPeter Attia2:01:58

       So then-

    8. RHRyan Hall2:01:58

       Yeah

    9. PAPeter Attia2:01:59

       ... and then how did you tweak that formula?

    10. RHRyan Hall2:02:01

        So I started spacing things out a little bit more and started just taking two easy days b- between every session. So I was, I was, uh, f- focusing on, like, a nine, 10-day cycle.

    11. PAPeter Attia2:02:11

        Mm-hmm.

    12. RHRyan Hall2:02:11

        But then I was making those workouts higher quality, bigger. So, like, one workout that I implemented, instead of saying, like, those Tuesday short sessions, which this might have been a little bit... A- again, I think I got too far away from 5K fitness. I should have spent more time developing that. But, but this workout I absolutely love for marathoning, where I do 20 by 1,000 meters with a 200-meter easy jog between each 1,000 meter, and that was done at faster than marathon pace. So the goal is to, like, drive your threshold down. So you spend all this time doing threshold running at a certain pace, and then you're going just a tad bit quicker than that for these broken-up thresholds, and, uh-

    13. PAPeter Attia2:02:51

        So how much quicker?

    14. RHRyan Hall2:02:52

        Covering quite a bit of distance in those.

    15. PAPeter Attia2:02:53

        So your m- if your marathon target pace for a K is what? Is th- two, just under three minutes or just over three minutes?

    16. RHRyan Hall2:03:00

        Yeah. Three minutes is a 2:06 and change, 2:06:30 marathon. So yeah, so, like, maybe I'd be shooting for, like, 2:55s, like, five seconds-

    17. PAPeter Attia2:03:10

        Yeah

    18. RHRyan Hall2:03:10

        ... per K quicker kind of feel.

    19. PAPeter Attia2:03:12

        How many days would... Let's just assume we're talking about it as a week, even though it's a nine-day cycle. How many weeks would you succeed on that day, where you would actually go 2:55 or better for each of the 20K versus fail somewhere along the way?

    20. RHRyan Hall2:03:32

        You know what? Actually, I think I was pretty successful most days, right? But I think a lot of that is because I wasn't trying to bite off more than I can chew, right? Like, I wasn't trying to hit home runs in workouts. Like, they were workouts where I was kind of set up to see success, and often too, like, my thresholds would just get better every time I would attempt it, right? Um, as the mil- buildup is going, I'm getting stronger, I'm getting in better shape. I'm also getting lighter, which is making things a little bit easier. And so usually I was seeing pretty good progress from, uh, that 12, 12-week buildup, where I'm getting pretty, uh, almost... Uh, what would happen, though, more likely than not, in almost every single buildup I have, is you get little niggles, right, where you get little, like, foot pain, little knee pain, just little things that pop up. So if I missed a workout, it's usually more for that reason, and then that's when you gotta, like, go to the cross-training, which is an area I've also, like, learned in and grown so much in and utilize a lot more now as a coach than when I was running. But when I was a runner, I was just kind of like the old school, like, like, run or die kind of mentality [laughs] which is not, not a helpful mentality to

19. 2:04:39 – 2:13:55

    A new personal record at the 2011 Boston Marathon and lessons on maximizing your own potential

    1. RHRyan Hall2:04:39

       have.

    2. PAPeter Attia2:04:40

       So what did you expect to happen, uh, on that April day in 2011?

    3. RHRyan Hall2:04:45

       So I was coming off a terrible half marathon. So a month before that race, I ran, I don't even-- I couldn't even tell you my time. I don't think I ever looked it up. It was, like, 66 minutes or something for a half marathon, which is, you know, seven minutes off my personal best. And training had been going super well. Things had been clicking well. I thought I was in really good shape. It's kind of one of those scenarios where you go to the start with this really high expectation, but then it's easy to have that, like, shattered, you know? And so things just weren't clicking in the race, created n- negative mindset, negative snowball, excitement gone, and then you're just trying to get to the finish line, you know? So not a good run at all. Super been out of shape afterwards because I didn't know why. You know, it's always easy to-

    4. PAPeter Attia2:05:24

       How long, how long was that before the Boston Marathon?

    5. RHRyan Hall2:05:27

       A month. A month out, yeah. And so, you know, that's one that you want to go well to create confidence, right? And, a- and again, I had no reason to descri- I d- I didn't know why it went so bad. I had nothing I could put my finger on. So those are the hardest ones to manage mentally, right? So, uh, but you know, I got back up and just started training again. And I found this over and over again, not just with myself, but with athletes I coach. Oftentimes, like, these races, when you're in heavy marathon training, won't go well, but then they'll turn something on inside of you. It's like neurologically, all of a sudden, you're, like, firing. And so I came out of that race and just started feeling phenomenal, like, like, similar to how I felt before Houston, and it was a very, like, quick change. It was, like, the next week, all of a sudden, I was like... Like I said, training had been going well before, but it got taken even to the next level. And there's all these different factors going into why that might have been. I think the race helped. Also, we headed back to Stanford to train at sea level, and so that, it was very much how we'd utilize altitude pre-kids. We have kids now, so we can't do this. But we had spent, like, two months up at altitude, dropped down to sea level for a month, go back up, drop back down, and that was taken from Jack Daniels, who's done a ton, a ton of research in the running space. I think probably one of the most brilliant minds in running, in my opinion, especially from a scientific s- uh, perspective. And I was asking him, corresponding with him, and like, "Hey, what's the best way to utilize altitude?" And that's what he recommended, is, like, go up to altitude, shoot back down. 'Cause what you see is you see a big dramatic increase in your hematocrit hemoglobin early on in those first three weeks, and then it just starts to taper off, right? And so then you, then you head back down to sea level, and it's gonna go back down. But then you see y- when you come back up to altitude, a- again, another big dramatic shift, so you just always want that shifting up, right? So, um, that's what we were doing. We headed back down to sea level, and again, there's positives to training at sea level. Like, I'm sleeping way better when I'm at sea level. I'm running faster. I'm able to do workouts I can't do at altitude. And so things just started clicking like crazy. I was doing... Again, I also started having caffeine every single day j- and that was the first time in my career I started doing this. And, uh, and so I started running my easy runs a lot quicker, and I have no idea if this, like, was something that was-- obviously, it worked, but I don't know if it was b- in despite of this or because of this, you know? Um, but I was running a lot of my easy runs at, like, 5:30, 5:20 pace and just, like, floating through it, just feeling-- Even, like, the day before the race, do a easy 30-minute run plus, like, six 500-meter strides. That's kind of a custom run for us before the marathon. Like, I'm so glad Sarah wasn't there, my wife, 'cause she woulda killed me for running as fast as I did. I was by myself, and I was just hammering. [laughs] I was running, like, 5:30 pace, but it was just easy. I was just floating, wasn't even breathing.

    6. PAPeter Attia2:08:14

       What was the-- what would be the difference in your hematocrit? How much would your hematocrit vary between sea level and elevation?

    7. RHRyan Hall2:08:21

       That's a good question. You know, I don't remember off the top of my head. We weren't super great about doing blood work. I wish we had done more of that. Like, we would do it just kinda like it seemed like random times, you know? We'd pop down to the Olympic Training Center, get some blood work done, and see where it was at. But to be honest, I, I can't remember the differences, but it would, it would come up pretty significantly in those first three weeks, for sure. So yeah, just feeling like a million bucks heading into that race, but I did have this, like, kinda thing hovering over me of like, "You just tanked a half marathon" kinda thing. But, uh, then the day before the race, I remember, uh, talking to the race, one of the race organizers, and she's telling me like, "You know, like, we're supposed to get a really good tailwind tomorrow, right?" And I was just-- When I heard that, I just lit up inside, 'cause I, I get excited about running fast. Like, I'd rather break a world record than win a gold medal. Like, that's just how I am, you know? Um, and I remember talking to Bill Rodgers, who won the Boston Marathon four times, won New York four times, and he was telling me, he's like, he's like, "You know, about once every 10 years you get a wicked tailwind in Boston, and then you can really roll." So he had a year when he got a tailwind, and he stopped four times in the race to, like, tie his shoe, to walk, to get water, and he still ran 2:09. [laughs] And so, um, I-- His words, like, were in my head in standing on the starting line in Hopkinton that morning, and I'm looking at the flag, and it's just going the exact direction we're gonna run, and I was like, "I'm never, never gonna get a day like this again." Like, "I'm-a make the most of it." And I always like to go to the front and lead. Like, that was kind of my signature. But I didn't, I didn't let one moment go by in that race where I wasn't pressing. I was like, "I'm gonna get everything I can out of every single mile." And so we were rolling. We were, like, a lot of our miles in the 4:30s during that race. Um, we came through the half in 61:52, I believe was our split. And, uh, the race, the race organizer was on a motorcycle in front of us, and he saw our split at halfway, saw the clock, and he's like, he radioed his clock guys. He's like, "Hey, you guys messed up the clocks. It says 61:50." And they're like, "Yeah, that's right." [laughs] And so we were... I mean, at the time, the world record, I believe, was, like, low 2:04. And so we were, you know, under world record pace. And again, like, the first half of the Boston Marathon is slightly down, so... And we had the wind at our backs, so-

    8. PAPeter Attia2:10:38

       And you've got Heartbreak Hill at the very end as well.

    9. RHRyan Hall2:10:41

       Yeah, you have Heartbreak Hill. Like, all through 17 and a half miles till 20, it's, like, up and down hills. So it's, it's typically known as a challenging, slow course. But again, if you get the right wind and you make the most of it, 'cause these aren't pace races either. Like most fast races, you have pacemakers in there, and they're in charge of pace. Guys are just tucked in for most, first 20 miles at least, and then they're off and running the last 10K. Well, in this race it was just me at the front, just hammering, and all of Africa sitting on my back behind me, enjoying the ride. [laughs] But I didn't care. I was like, "I'm-a make the most of today." Um, I remember one, one memory from that race was one of the guys on the side of the road. Like, some of the spots, like especially early on in Hopkinton, you're just going through neighborhoods and stuff, people out in their lawn chairs, and one of the guys yelling at me. He's like, "Hey, Ryan, don't let them steal your tailwind." [laughs]

    10. PAPeter Attia2:11:28

        [laughs]

    11. RHRyan Hall2:11:28

        And I was thinking about that for a while. I was like, "Is that possible?"

    12. PAPeter Attia2:11:30

        [laughs]

    13. RHRyan Hall2:11:31

        Like, I don't think so, but [laughs] um, lots of kind of funny, funny memories from that. And, uh, it was just cool to, like, be with those guys, be in the lead group, and, and also to get to push them along to something that would have-- It was a, a super historic day, you know? Like, the top two guys went on to run 2:03 low, like, I think 2:03:04 or something like that, which was well, like, almost a minute under the world record at the time. And, uh, you know, I finished fourth and ran 2:04:58. But I'll never forget, uh, another memorable part of the race was coming through with a mile to go and, uh, seeing-- They have a clock at a mile to go, and it was right at two hours, right? But I'm in the, like, serious pain cave, right? I went out super fast, super late in the race. No one's around me, and I'm just, like, holding on for dear life. And I was like, I saw two hours flat, and I, I was like, "Okay, like, if I break five minutes for this last mile, like, I'm gonna be under 2:05." And my PR at the time was 2:06:17. So I was already gonna, I was gonna run a big PR no matter what. And I was like, "2:05. Eh, that's insane. That sounds pretty good," [laughs] you know? And there was a part of me that was like, "Just enjoy this last mile. Run, like, 5:30. Just soak it all in and just, you know, enjoy it." But then there was a part of me that's like, "You know what? You might never be here again. Like, why don't you just put your head down, grit your teeth, and bear it. Try to break five and get under 2:05." And so that's what I did, and it was a world of pain. That last mile was a blur. Um, the crowds in Boston are just insane, though. Like, I'll never forget running down Boylston Street and just the crowds just going crazy. And, you know, I was in fourth place, but I didn't even care, because, like, to me, performance shifted away from, like, beating other people to me maximizing my own potential, and that's what I get most excited about. And it's like that with my lifting, too. It's like, there's guys deadlifting well over ha- double what I'm able to do, right? But to me, like, that's not important. It's about, like, me optimizing what I've been given, my gift, and, and also just seeing the, the fun part of the-- seeing the growth and the improvement, right? So coming across the finish line, I just, like, put my hands out and just soaked it all in, yelled super loud. My wife was there at the finish to give me a big hug. And, uh, it was super special. And I, I felt like I'd won the race even though I hadn't. Um, but one of those, those moments where you're just like, "This is, again, like Houston, like one of those magical days that, you know, you may never get again, so just soak it all in and enjoy it." But yeah, special day.

20. 2:13:55 – 2:26:41

    Learning from failure and takeaways from his disappointing performance at the 2012 Olympics

    1. PAPeter Attia2:13:55

       So, I mean, to me, the most amazing part of your journey is not the successes, it's the, it's, it's the, the way in which you've been able to kinda carry yourself through the failures, right? And I think, you know, you got this parallel between '07 and '08, right, where... Uh, and, and then we see it again now here in '11 and '12. So how are you feeling going into London? Again, I think the expectations early in that season are very high, right?

    2. RHRyan Hall2:14:22

       Coming out of a 2:04, I was, you know, I was like, "I'm gonna take a shot at winning this race," even though, you know, I'd just been beaten by a minute by those guys. So I knew, I knew it wasn't You know, like I was expected to necessarily win, but I knew I had a shot. Like, you know, if you run 2:04 for the marathon in those days, like you have a chance to win a gold medal. So, um, yeah. Uh, [laughs] and again, I, this was a theme, going back to Beijing, talking about not putting on the weight after I ran London leading up to the buildup for Beijing and how that made my training flat. I did the same thing. Um, I'm... [laughs] This is one of those things where it's like, okay, like having a coach is a helpful thing, 'cause if a coach-- If I'd have told a coach what I was gonna do, he'd have been like, "That's a really bad idea. Let's just stick with what we know works for you in this situation, and that's putting on 10 pounds." But instead of doing that, again, my heart was good, my intentions were good. I was like, okay, like again, like faith's a big part of who I am. I really wanna hear God. And a way that people use across all traditions to do this is through fasting, right? So I, instead of putting on 10 pounds, I did a one-week fast where all I did was train.

    3. PAPeter Attia2:15:27

       How close to the Olympics?

    4. RHRyan Hall2:15:29

       So let's see. Boston was April 15th, and the Olympics were August. So, you know, it was enough time to where I was gonna get a full buildup for the, for the game. So I had plenty of time to like put on weight and do my usual thing. But again, I just wanted, I wanted clarity on how to train for this thing. And so instead of my weight going from 137 to 150 during that two-week period, it went from 137 to like 130 flat. And that was just... I, I started the training in a really depleted state. My body wasn't in a good state. I was, uh, mentally and spiritually, I was in the best spot I'd ever been, but my body wasn't ready to go at all. It was, it was needing a break [laughs] after that, you know? But I began my training and came back, and I was running pretty well initially, and then it just kind of went downhill from there, and it actually kind of became a miracle that I even made it to the starting line, um, considering how poorly my training was going. Just nothing was working. And this is what I tell myself in the weight room now all the time wherein I'm getting stale in training and not seeing growth. Um, w- if I'm not eating enough food, if I'm not taking enough calories, it doesn't matter how I'm training. It's not gonna work. And that's, that's how it was for me in that buildup, is like my body was depleted. I didn't have enough calories on board, so it didn't matter how I trained. It wasn't gonna work. So it was just a, a frustrating period of training leading up to that. I actually had to take my watch off for all my workouts, 'cause it was so discouraging to see what my workouts were and see how slow I was running them compared to what I was accustomed to. So that was good for my mental health, and I think there is a point that can be helpful for people out there. Sometimes just get away from the data. Take all that stuff off-

    5. PAPeter Attia2:17:09

       Yeah

    6. RHRyan Hall2:17:09

       ... and just go off feel. And that was helpful, um, but it wasn't enough to get my body back into the state it needed to be in. So-

    7. PAPeter Attia2:17:16

       So what, what did you feel at the, at the start line in London? Um, did you feel like... Was there any hope in you at that point? Or were you like, "Look, I'm here at this point out of an obligation to my country. I'm representing my country. I'm wearing the flag of my country, but this is going to be the most difficult two hours of my life"?

    8. RHRyan Hall2:17:37

       Yeah. You know, there's... I'm a very optimis- optimistic person, so [laughs] I'm pretty good at generating hope. So, and it did help not timing my workouts. So there was a little bit of mystery of thinking, "Oh, maybe I'm actually in a lot better shape than I think and feel here," you know? So there was some genuine hope on the starting line that, hey... And that's the thing with running, uh, that I've experienced. Sometimes, like training can go really bad and you can just pop one, have a big day. So there's always that kind of thought in my head of like this, you know, like let's not think that something special couldn't happen today, 'cause it could. But it became obvious like really early on in the race. The pace felt super hard, super fast. And then as is the case oftentimes when I get too lean and too light, I have all these injury issues, right? So like I had all this hip stuff going on before the race. Luckily, like my chiro guy, John Ball, is amazing, had me in one piece on the starting line. But then very early on in the race, it was like then my right hamstring started hurting, and that's ultimately what led me to drop out, is I was in the middle of that race. I was already starting to limp a little bit. It wasn't even the middle. It was early on. It was like seven miles into the race, and I was limping, and I was like, "All right," like, "what do I do here? What's the right call?" You're trying to kind of coach yourself through it, not give up hope. But then at the same time, you want to be smart, 'cause this is my livelihood, you know, and I'm looking out for the long term. And, you know, I was like, if, if I... I'll, I'll, I'm willing to be that guy who like comes limping in like seven hours after everyone [laughs] and gets the, the cheers and inspires people for just hanging in there. But at the same time, like I also wanna be good to my body, you know? And I've been not good to my body a lot, and, uh, that was just kind of like a moment where I, I had a sense of clarity that I needed to be good to myself and call it a day. So that was actually the first race I ever dropped out of in my life, was the London Marathon, and it felt so surreal. I remember stepping off the... 'cause it's a loop course, you know, so you're going past the finish and the start, um, a, a number of times, and I think it was the second loop. I could be wrong on that, but I think it was the second loop when I dropped out. And I remember stepping off, and I almost started running again, 'cause it just felt so wrong. It felt so weird. It felt like I was in someone else's movie or something. Um, and but then ultimately, I just, you know, walked off the course, and, um, then it began the long process of, of working through that mentally and emotionally, you know?

Episode duration: 2:58:57