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Peter Attia MD245 ‒ Overcoming trauma, finding inner peace, & living a meaningful & fulfilling life | Lewis Howes
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EVERY SPOKEN WORD
95 min read · 18,811 words- 0:00 – 0:08
Intro
- PAPeter Attia
[upbeat music] Hey everyone, welcome to the Drive Podcast. I'm your host, Peter Attia.
- 0:08 – 9:40
Lewis’s upbringing and the impact of his older brother going to prison
- PAPeter Attia
Lewis, man, thank you for making time to sit down. I feel lucky that I'm gonna be one of the sort of first people to get to talk with you, um-
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah, man
- PAPeter Attia
... on the heels of your book coming out, because we're recording this in January. Um, your book is coming out at the beginning of March. So, um, I know that, you know, you're gonna be talking to a lot of people, and I've been thinking about this as I, I kinda read your book whi- which is, given this is the first time we're speaking, uh, n- not the first time we're speaking, but the first time I'm having you on my podcast to talk about it, I also wanna talk about things that, you know, precede this book in particular. Um-
- LHLewis Howes
Uh-huh
- PAPeter Attia
... and I could think of no better way to start talking about it than to really go kind of m- more deeply into your story. Because I think your personal story is what is at least the substrate for three of your four books, right? You, you, you, I think-
- LHLewis Howes
Yes
- PAPeter Attia
... your first book was really kind of about optimizing LinkedIn and, uh-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm
- PAPeter Attia
... we'll probably not get too much into that given that I-
- LHLewis Howes
Right
- PAPeter Attia
... don't use LinkedIn too much, but, uh [laughs]
- LHLewis Howes
[laughs]
- PAPeter Attia
I- it'll probably come up as part of the others. So, um-
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah
- PAPeter Attia
... um, t- so r- remind me, you grew up in, was it Ohio?
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah, a small town in Ohio, near Columbus. And, um, but then I bounced around. When I was 13 I l- I left home and went to a private boarding school in St. Louis, Missouri. I begged my family, my parents, to send me away for about two months in the summer just because there was a lot of kind of turmoil, uh, inner turmoil and my environment turmoil. Um, and I begged them to send me away. They didn't wanna send me away. Most kids get sent away for being bad. I begged my parents to send me away.
- PAPeter Attia
Sort of funny, our, our daughter is half joking, and she's in eighth grade-
- LHLewis Howes
[laughs]
- PAPeter Attia
... saying she wants to go to boarding school for high school. And I'm like, "Yeah, that's not gonna happen. We have the rest of our lives to be away from you. We're not gonna do it during high school. You are, you're gonna stay with us."
- LHLewis Howes
I, I hear you, man. Yeah, I mean, it was a, it was a, it was actually, like, it transformed my life though. 'Cause there was so much discipline, there was so much organization. You had to wake up at 6:00 a.m. It wasn't like a military school, but there was definitely strict rules and guidelines and, um, that, that, that organizational feel gave me structure when I felt like I didn't have structure in my life necessarily. So it was extremely transformational. But if your daughter doesn't wanna... You know, if you wanna keep your daughter home, then keep her home. [laughs]
- PAPeter Attia
[laughs] I, I think she, I think she might be wanting to go because she thinks they'll have, like, less stringent rules about phone time or something.
- LHLewis Howes
[laughs] Yeah, right.
- PAPeter Attia
[laughs] So, um, r- remind me, do you have siblings? I know you have a brother-
- LHLewis Howes
Three older siblings.
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah.
- LHLewis Howes
Three older-
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah
- LHLewis Howes
... three older. I'm the youngest of four. Uh, older brother, two older sisters.
- PAPeter Attia
Okay. And, and what's the, what was the relative differences between ages there?
- LHLewis Howes
My brother is 11 and a half years older than me, and then it's kind of a three and a half, four-year gap between each one of us.
- 9:40 – 12:22
Finding lessons in tragedy and adversity
- LHLewis Howes
And one of the, one of the crazy, you know, the beautiful lessons that came from this, and I think all these different tragedies in our life or challenges and adversities, you know, hindsight is always 20/20, and sometimes it's hard to have future hindsight now. And that's, now that I've had so many different challenges in life and I see the meaning of them later, anytime I'm in an adversity now, I try to think about, man, this is gonna be so meaningful in my future, and it's gonna give me so much more power in my future to serve others and more wisdom. [lips smack] When he went to prison, um, he got sent to a prison with, like, these special kind of, um, facility that had a prison band. And because he was so gifted-
- PAPeter Attia
Mm
- LHLewis Howes
... in the violin, he got sent to a specific prison that allowed this kind of curriculum. And it's kind of like a Hollywood movie in, in my mind because he goes to jail, he joins the prison band. He play... He's a classical violinist, white kid from Ohio, and he joins the band with everyone who's not white. He's the only white kid. They're all playing hip hop and funk and blues and rap and R&B and jazz, and they all teach him the culture of a different style of music for four years. So he gets a master class from other inmates who are talented and, and play and sing with their heart and their souls with so much, uh, musicality and passion from pain and trauma, and they pour their hearts out in this band.
- PAPeter Attia
Mm.
- LHLewis Howes
And we got to go watch him actually a few times, and it was in- it was so inspiring to watch prisoners, inmates perform like they were free men. It was incredibly inspiring to witness every time. Um, and after he got out in four and a half years on good behavior, um, so he didn't have to serve the full 25. And he, in the last 20-plus years, has completely transformed his life, goes all over the country and all over the world to perform and teach at schools.
- PAPeter Attia
Mm.
- LHLewis Howes
He was a professor at Berklee School of Music, one of the most prestigious colleges in the, in the world o- of music. Um, he played with Les Paul for 10 years in Times Square. He played at Les Paul's funeral. This is, like, one of the icons of jazz and invented the electric guitar. He, uh, again, has transformed his life to be of service and, and find meaning from that experience. And he would have never been the greatest jazz violinist in the world had he not gone through that four years of, you know, challenging education of being an inmate in prison, so...
- 12:22 – 16:09
Lasting trauma from being sexually abused at age 5
- PAPeter Attia
So you mentioned a moment ago that, um, from as young as when you were five, your parents, uh, and your family would have exchange students. Um, I know-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm
- PAPeter Attia
... you, you wrote about this in, um, I believe your second book, that-
- LHLewis Howes
Yep
- PAPeter Attia
... you had a really traumatic event occur when you were five. That something that-
- LHLewis Howes
Yep
- PAPeter Attia
... you know, remained a secret for at least 20 years. Was, was that-
- LHLewis Howes
25 years, yeah
- PAPeter Attia
... was that, was that r- related to someone that came as an exchange student or was that unrelated?
- LHLewis Howes
It was unrelated. Yeah, when I was five, I was sexually abused by the, a babysitter's son.
- PAPeter Attia
Hmm.
- LHLewis Howes
He was probably like 16 or 17, and I would go... M- both my parents were working, and they'd work till, you know, 5:00, 6:00, 7:00 or whatever. Because when I was younger, they didn't really have, uh, the financial abundance until, you know, maybe I got to be like 16, my dad finally started to get commissions coming in that, uh, were more than just kind of scraping by month to month. So both my parents were working while they had four kids, and they sent us to babysitters after school. Um, and so that was, uh, an unfortunate event that for 25 years left me feeling with a lot of pain, a lot of insecurity, a lot of shame. Because I, I didn't think this ever happened to any other boy. I mean, I didn't know of any one other boy. I'd never heard of a man, uh, that I watched on TV or an athlete talking about sexual abuse growing up in the '80s and '90s. No one ever sp- spoke about it. You heard about it from women in some cases. Um, but I never heard about it from a male perspective. And so I thought I was, for 25 years, that I was the only one who'd been sexually abused in the world, essentially. I was uneducated and unaware, and I was left with a lot of shame a- and self-doubt that caused me to put on and project a certain personality type that I wasn't, an inauthenticity for, of me, um, to protect myself. So I wore many different masks to try to fit in, to feel accepted, to feel like I belonged in my peer group. And, um, I remember just always kind of feeling like angry, triggered, um, reactive when I felt like I was being taken advantage of or abused in life. Whether it was actually happening or not, when I felt like it was happening, I was on the defenses. And in some ways, that drove me to accomplish goals and generate some success in sports and then eventually in business. But I remember I would have these big goals in, in athletics. You know, I wanted to be an All-American athlete. I was a two-sport All-American athlete. I wanted to be a professional athlete. I made, uh, arena football league and was a pro athlete. I wanted to go to the Olympics, and I was on the USA handball team for almost nine years. We never qualified, but I played against a lot of Olympic teams. And I remember accomplishing all these sports goals and still not feeling fulfilled and, and joyful and happy inside. It was kind of like, all right, I succeeded, but I never felt like it was enough, so I needed to go bigger. I did the same thing in business for many years. I would accomplish goals. I would make money. I would get the accolades and things like that, and it still didn't feel like it was enough. And it wasn't until I was 30 years old, uh, a decade ago now, when I started to have multiple breakdowns in my life. I was driven and fueled to prove people wrong, to look good, to win, um, and to get acknowledged and to be kind of the one standing on top. That's what was I fueled by 'cause I thought that would bring joy, peace, and fulfillment. And it just left me feeling more and more angry and upset the more successful I
- 16:09 – 27:50
Inflection point that drove Lewis to seek help, and a beautiful experience at a therapeutic workshop
- LHLewis Howes
got. And it wasn't until I was 30, I had multiple, let's call it breakdowns in life, in an intimate relationship, a business partnership, and then I was also just kind of reactive in life. Um, when I'd play sports, I got into a bad fight one time on a basketball court. And kind of all these things came together at once where my, my best friend said, "I don't wanna hang out with you anymore if you're gonna keep reacting like this." And this is a guy that I played college football with and knew for a decade at that time. He was like, "I don't like the way you're reacting. It's not, it's not fun anymore. You know, it doesn't... What are you doing? Why are you getting so triggered?" And that was a big wake-up call where I thought I didn't need additional coaching or support. I thought I kinda had all the answers at the time. I had a massive ego, thinking that, you know, what else can I learn? You know, I, I'm, I'm in the personal development space. I've made money in business. You know, I feel like I've got the answers. People just need to understand and accept me. And, um, I started to take the advice from him and, and other friends, and I went to therapy. I went to a lot of different emotional intelligence workshops, uh, and I've been in the journey of trying and testing lots of different healing modalities over the last decade that have been extremely powerful, uh, and inspiring. And in one of these workshops I took 10 years ago, I opened up for the first time about being sexually abused, and that was the catalyst for me starting the journey of reflecting back on just all the little T and big T traumas that I had faced, whether I thought they were a big deal or not. Just allowing myself to reflect back on the different psychological stages of my life that wounded me, that created a scar, that created this type of open wound. And it was extremely healing ... terrifying at the same time, but extremely healing when I started to open up about this in this workshop, and then went through a process of telling my family one by one, and then close friends one by one, and then eventually about a year later, opening up about it publicly, uh, on my podcast. And that was about nine years ago when I opened up about it, and I remember thinking to myself before I did this kind of episode talking about sexual abuse as a man, I remember thinking, "My life is over. My career is over. My business is over. Uh, no one's gonna buy anything from me ever again. You know, everyone's gonna make fun of me publicly, and I'm gonna be shamed." But I just felt like it needed to come out of me, and if it could help a few men who had been through something similar, then it was worth, you know, losing my credibility and my business and everything. And what happened afterwards was an extremely beautiful experience for me. For weeks, I just got essays from men opening up about, for the first time, about the traumas that they went through through sexual abuse. And, um, it was kind of like an emotional hangover reading these essays from men, because I didn't realize how much trauma men go through in their childhoods. And the stats are one in six, uh, men have been sexually abused. It's one in four women. Um, but the, the challenge for men is there has never really been a safe space until really the last few years for men to be able to open up and talk about it. Again, it's traumatic, no matter you're man, woman, who you are, but there's been more of a, a, availability to talk about it for women over the last, you know, decades, and I just never felt like there was a space for men. And I think more men are opening up and talking about it. More people are talking about mental health in general and just healing trauma, and it's been, um, it's been a beautiful journey over the last 10 years to continue to heal, to con- continue to grow and reconnect and re-parent that five-year-old version of myself, the 10-year-old version of myself, the 18-year-old version of myself and, and talk about... and talk to myself in a meditative, psychological state of how proud I am of that five-year-old for overcoming this, for how proud I am of the 8 to 12-year-old who didn't have friends for four and a half years because, you know, he was facing challenges with my brother in prison, uh, and for all the different stages of life that I felt like I was unsure, uncertain, unclear, and being able to go back and have those conversations has been extremely healing experience.
- PAPeter Attia
What do you think it was, Lewis, that, um, created that crescendo when you were 30? Uh, it's not an, it's not a, it's not an unusual scenario, right? Which is-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm
- PAPeter Attia
... these traumatic events occur very early in life, but they don't... S- sort of the, the maladaptive side, 'cause, 'cause I, I sort of describe what you're... What you've explained is there were positive and negative adaptations to that experience. The positive adaptations were the things that actually gave you discipline and gave you drive and-
- LHLewis Howes
Yes
- PAPeter Attia
... probably enabled you to reach a lot of your potential, but unfortunately, it came with these negative adaptations that we'll-
- LHLewis Howes
Yes
- PAPeter Attia
... call maladaptations, and that's what, you know, increased your temper and probably created emotional distance between you and others and a dis- you know, inability to connect with people. But the story that, that, that sort of... The thing that I find interesting is it took 25 years for that volcano-
- LHLewis Howes
[laughs]
- PAPeter Attia
... to erupt.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
What, what do you think that was about? Why do you think you, you were able to enjoy relative successes until you weren't? And, you know, it's sort of like it was sustainable until it wasn't.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah. [sighs] I love we're having this conversation 'cause I don't really talk about this as much. Most people don't ask me this stuff, so I'm, I'm glad we're talking about it because, um, I was really good at putting on a mask of, the athlete mask, of the know-it-all mask, like I've got it all figured out, I can take care of this, you know, um, kind of the success mask of like using success as a mask to protect myself, and I think [sighs] it's really hard to transform when things are good and when things are bad. Like we get familiar with good. We get familiar with bad or low level stress. It becomes familiar. It's really hard to transform unless some type of event occurs. Maybe it's someone close to you has a near-death experience. Maybe you go through a divorce or breakup or your business bankruptcy or you lose your job. Whatever it might be. You get really sick. Something happens. You lose a grandparent that you're close with and you start asking yourself like, "Why am I doing the things I'm doing when there's, there's not enough time left?" You start looking at life differently, and I think for me, it was kind of a perfect storm of events that occurred. A business partnership broke up. Like I almost got in a fight with my business partner at one point. In the middle of Times Square, I felt like I was gonna punch him because we were just not able to communicate, and it was kind of like months and months of frustration and, you know, resentment and all these things, and again, I was immature and had a big ego.
- PAPeter Attia
And if I remember correctly fr- from the book, this is [clears throat] this was a business partner... This was a 50/50 partnership where you were doing-
- LHLewis Howes
Yes
- PAPeter Attia
... 80% of the work.
- LHLewis Howes
[laughs] That, that's my perspective at least.
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah, I was bringing in the revenue. I was the one doing the sales. So I felt like the only reason that we're generating revenue is because I'm doing the work, right? Uh, that work. And, um-
- PAPeter Attia
So it wasn't that you didn't have a legitimate concern.
- LHLewis Howes
Right. Yeah, yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
The problem was you-
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah
- PAPeter Attia
... weren't able to effectively say to your partner, "Hey, listen, maybe this doesn't, this doesn't feel equitable to me. How does it feel to you?"
- LHLewis Howes
Uh-huh.
- PAPeter Attia
"Should we reconsider things?"
- LHLewis Howes
Exactly. I didn't have the emotional tools to communicate maturely really is what it came down to. I didn't have the tools to communicate my frustrations, um, peacefully and with gratitude. And it's funny because after I went through this ... transformational workshop and, uh, a- and started practicing these tools, and learning them, and practicing them, and integrating the healing. I then later went back to this business partner that I didn't speak to for months and had a meeting with him and just thanked him. I just said, "Hey, I'm so grateful for you. I appreciate you." Uh, and I was able to sit with him for a couple hours and find peace, and actually then sell the business to him in a peaceful way. But I didn't have the emotional tools on how to communicate effectively before then. And afterwards, he was like, "What happened to you?" Like, "How did you communicate like this?" Like, "I was so relieved 'cause I thought you were to come here and s- you know, get arguing and all these things." Um, and I had the perfect storm of events. I was in a, uh, an emotional up-and-down intimate relationship, I was in an emotional up-and-down business relations partnership, and I was using the, the frustration as an outlet with basketball and, and sports. And I would kind of take all that aggression out on others in sports. That's what I knew. That's what I did in football. You take all your anger out on someone else. You inflict as much pain on them as possible, but in a, you know, uh, a legal activity, right? But you just spear them in their chest or in their head as hard as you could. You could hit people in the head back then head-to-head and there was no foul. So you just head-to-head as hard as you can, which probably caused a lot more brain trauma, I mean, than I needed. And at that time, I was like, "I can only do this through basketball." And then for me, just, I kept getting in more and more, like, kind of tiffs and shoving matches, and eventually I got in a fist fight with a guy.
- PAPeter Attia
And this is literally just playing pickup basketball.
- LHLewis Howes
Pickup basketball in fricking Beverly Hills.
- PAPeter Attia
[laughs]
- 27:50 – 41:08
A powerful workshop on emotional intelligence jump started Lewis’s healing journey
- PAPeter Attia
So when you finally confront this harsh reality, how do you then take the action? W- how did you even figure out what this workshop was? Did someone recommend it to you?
- LHLewis Howes
A few people recommended it to me kind of before this, and I was like, "Nah, I'm good." You know? [laughs]
- PAPeter Attia
And what was it called?
- LHLewis Howes
I've got all this... It's called Mastery and Transformational Training, and it's an emotional intelligence workshop in Los Angeles. And there's a bunch of different... these workshops out there, they're kind of like five-day workshops, that, that essentially have a bunch of different scenarios, games, and exercises to go back, uh, uh, to show you how you react in life. They're essentially designed to see how you are and create a mirror of real world scenarios in a small group setting with games, activities, one-to-one dyads, um, meditations, and all these different things. So you go back into the different events that caused pain, stress, overwhelm. The things that keep you from being your most joyful, authentic self now. What is holding you back from giving your fullest self, from being the most loving human being you can be, from being your childlike joy as an adult? What robbed you of your joy? What took your joy away from you? You know, who hurt you? Essentially, is what it's learning about. And everyone goes through their own journey and their own experience, but for me, it was extremely powerful.
- PAPeter Attia
Well, actually, that's kind of interesting, Lewis. That, that's a bit counterintuitive. Um, uh, I can totally understand why for you that was the journey. Is that... Was that-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm
- PAPeter Attia
... the explicit journey for anybody who joined that? In other words, was anybody who came to that workshop also put through a framework of anything that today is not happening for you that should be, is probably tied to some, for lack of a better word, contamination of your true self as a child? Or was that kind of more your journey?
- LHLewis Howes
Some type of belief.
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah.
- LHLewis Howes
I think they're... everyone goes through the same exercises, and some of them didn't resonate with me. I was like, "Okay, I got nothing out of it."
- PAPeter Attia
Hmm.
- LHLewis Howes
But for other people, it was, like, the biggest-
- PAPeter Attia
I see
- LHLewis Howes
... eye-opening experience. And then other exercises I was like, "Oh my gosh, this really impacted me in a big way," and it was a, it was a big breakthrough. And they're all designed to, to show you how you show up in life currently. What's working for you, what's not working for you. And what are tools that you can use moving forward to be a better version of yourself, is essentially what it is. Through leadership training, through emotional intelligence, language, things like that. And, um- I got a lot out of it because, again, I think I had so much pain I was holding onto for 25 years.
- PAPeter Attia
And did you talk about it there for the first time?
- LHLewis Howes
I talked about it there for the first time. And I remember, like, no girlfriend in the past knew, my family didn't know, I didn't tell any friends, 'cause I thought if people knew this about me, no one would love me, no one would accept me, no one would be my friend. And that was one of my biggest fears, was people not accepting me. But really, what happened was I never fully accepted myself. I wasn't able to forgive, you know, find meaning in that experience, and lots of different experience that occurred in my childhood. And so I was just filled with so much shame about these things. And I thought, if any of my, like, buddies knew these things about me, my college football teammates or high school basketball teammates knew this, they wouldn't want me on the team. And all I wanted to do was learn, like, how to fit in and be, and belong, but I never learned how to belong to myself. And I think that's something a lot of people, over the last 10 years of me doing the research I'm doing and you doing the research you're doing, a lot of people, from my experience, don't know how to fully love and accept themselves with all the mess and all the stress and all the things they've been through. And I'm not saying you need to be proud of the things you've done. There's many things in my past that I'm not proud of. But I can find meaning and accept and have compassion for the 11-year-old that would steal candy bars, you know, almost every day for a year and a half, and be like, "Okay, I, I was, that's where I was in my life. I'm not proud of it, but I can have compassion for the tools that I had, the stress I was going through." And then I stopped it, and I transformed in a certain way. So I, I love that person, and I heal that i- that person inside of me so that I am not in shame of all these different stages of my life. 'Cause I don't think shame supports us in, in service. It doesn't help us serve and give to the people we care about closest to us, to our communities, to our platforms, whatever we're creating in the world. It holds us back. And, um, for many years, I couldn't sleep at night. I would just sit up at night for about an hour, hour and a half just ruminating. And it wasn't till after I started the healing journey where I was able to fall asleep within minutes. And it's been, um... You know, it hasn't been a perfect journey over the last 10 years, but it's been a powerful journey of constantly healing.
- PAPeter Attia
Do you remember what it was in the moment you were about to talk about this that gave you the-
- LHLewis Howes
[laughs] Man
- PAPeter Attia
... the comfort that said-
- LHLewis Howes
[laughs]
- PAPeter Attia
... like, "I, in this moment, I can do something that has seemed so taboo"? I mean, i- it- was it in part, Lewis, because they were strangers? I mean, did that make it a little easier in that moment?
- LHLewis Howes
It was part of it. Yeah, it was part of it. We, it was, this workshop was, like, two weekend workshops. So I did, like, a, a f- a four-day workshop that kind of gave you some basic tools and understanding, so we're kind of all on the same page of understanding, like, the language and tools and leadership distinctions of accountability, responsibility, ownership of your life, things like that. It wasn't until the second weekend, which was, like, a week and a half later, where it got extremely intense. I mean, people are opening up and extremely vulnerable and crying and, and really sharing different things that had occurred. So once other people started to share, uh, how messed up their life was, it gave me permission to be like, "Oh, wow, other people go through stuff, too," and way worse scenarios than I've gone through in certain areas. Um, and I remember, this was probably, like, the halfway mark of this, this weekend workshop. And the first couple days of it, the trainer, the, the facilitat- facilit- the facilitator of the workshop said, "Okay. We've gone back and addressed a lot of the different things that have caused you to guard your heart, that have caused you to be more analytical in your mind a- and be less peaceful, uh, and not own your peace and own your love and give your love generously to others." A lot of people just guard themselves, right? He said, "Now we've addressed these different scenarios. We've addressed your, your mom, your dad, different scenarios from childhood. We've done these different exercises and the games. Then we have re- reflection and journaling time kind of to, to start integrating these things." And he said, "Now we're not gonna go back into the past anymore. We've done enough. We're gonna start creating a vision of the future you wanna create, the who you wanna be, how you wanna show up in the world, what you wanna create, the type of relationship you wanna have, the type of dreams you wanna manifest. And we're gonna start building tools into developing how to create that and getting clear on the vision you want for your life." And he said, "But before we do, if there's anyone who has yet to clear of their past a- and talk about or address the things, something they need to talk about, it's kind of like now is the time or forever hold your peace, 'cause we're moving forward. We're not going back anymore. Let's go on with our lives and start creating a powerful vision we can live into." And the room is kinda silent, and I remember just thinking to myself, "Man, I feel like I've been going all in on this workshop." Like, I, I went all in talking about, like, challenges with my parents that I had, about, you know, my brother going to prison and what that felt like, about being dyslexic my entire childhood and being in special needs classes until I finished college. Uh, you know, just to, like, being picked on, being picked last in sports team, all these things that were just kind of the painful memories. I was like, I talked about all of it. And I go, [scoffs] "But why have I still not talked about this one thing? Like, why have I yet to talk about it?" And for whatever reason, I go... It just kinda hit me. I go, "I don't, I don't know. If I don't talk about this now, I'll probably never speak about it in my life. I'll probably keep it to my grave." And I think it was just the The environment, the, the setting, again, other people were opening up before then. It gave me the courage in that moment, and I don't think I would have ever had the courage to speak to, you know, my future wife, my, you know, my parents. I don't think I would have told anyone 'cause I didn't have the courage emotionally. And I remember standing up. There's probably forty people in the room. I remember standing up and kind of walking to the front of the room. I didn't even, like, raise my hand. I just stood up and walked to the room. And this is what I remember. I remember looking down at the carpet and walking through this story for the first time, reliving it like I was in the bathroom being sexually abused by this man. And it's com- almost like I could go to the, the scene twenty-five years prior. I could s- see the room, the mirror, the bathroom. I could smell. I could, I could... I went back there. And I was so ashamed that I couldn't look up at anyone's eyes. So I just stared down at the carpet, and I walked through this kind of story step by step, and I just said the whole thing. And I remember walking back to my seat, sitting down, and just erupting with tears. I just started bawling. And I didn't really cry that much. You know, you're... I was conditioned not to cry as an athlete and as a, you know, a man. And I just bawled. I was bawling so much. And it was so beautiful because there was two women on the sides of me. Um, they're crying. They're both hugging me and embracing me. The whole room is, like, starting to cry, and I'm just like, "My life is over." That's what I thought. And so I run out of the room. I get so scared. I ran out of the room, and I left. I left the event. I went outside to the, um, [lips smack] you know, out of this kind of a hotel conference room, and I went outside this kind of back alley of this hotel. And I'm putting my head in my... on my hands, like, on the wall in this back alley, just, like, sobbing. And I was just like, "Uh, I'm never going back in there. I'm done. I'm going home. Like, my life is over." And one of the most beautiful things that happened in my life, a, a memory of mine that I, that I'm... it was a beautiful moment, was I felt this tap on my shoulder as I'm kind of, like, crying in, in, on this, uh, wall. And I turn around, and it's probably a fifty-five, sixty-year-old man, big guy, and he's looking at me in my eyes. He's probably my same height, eye to eye, staring at me, crying. And he said, "You're my hero. I will follow you anywhere." I remember this vividly. He said, "You're my hero. I will follow you anywhere, and I had everything wrong about you." Again, I was kind of showing up with an ego and, you know, thought I knew it all and all this stuff. And he goes, "I had everything wrong about you." And he goes, "Let me tell you something. Uh, you know, I'm in my late fifties. I've got four kids. I've been married for twenty-five years. My wife doesn't know. My kids don't know. No one knows. This happened to me when I was eleven for many years. And it was... it's still the deepest secret that I have. You're the first person that knows. Thank you for having the courage to open up and give me permission to start t- talking about it. I'm gonna go tell my wife tonight. I'm gonna start the healing journey. Thank you." And I was like... I'm just kind of in shock. I'm, I'm still, like, emotional. I'm a wreck. He's hugging me. We're crying together. And then one by one, probably, like, twelve or thirteen men come out of the room, and they all come and give me a hug. And not everyone had been sexually abused, but a, a few other guys had been, and they all came to me and said, "This happened to me when I was eight. This happened to me when I was thirteen. This happened to me when I was seven." And these few other guys kind of said, "I've never told anyone. Thank you for opening it up." This was... So this was back in two thousand and thirteen, uh, ten years ago when I did this. And I was kind of like, "Wow, okay, other men have experienced this." And they started talking about it, and it was very therapeutic and very healing for us to experience it. The weekend, you know, I go on over the next few days and finish the event and have a powerful experience of just catharsis and healing and, and, and then sharing these, these vulnerable moments with other people who had similar experiences, which was extremely powerful.
- 41:08 – 47:49
How being authentic can strengthen bonds with family and bring inner peace
- LHLewis Howes
But I remember thinking to myself, like, "I can't tell my family." Like, these are strangers. I never have to see them again. Like you said, uh, what's my family gonna say? What are my friends gonna say? Are they gonna be as emotionally available and courageous to be able to receive this information? Um, and, uh, that was a fear and concern of mine. But eventually, I ended up telling them all. I, I, I reached out to a therapist friend of mine afterwards and I said, "Hey, this is something that happened," and I started to open up about it. "But I'm terrified to tell my family and friends 'cause I don't think they'll accept me." And I said, "What's a, what's a process I can use to connect with them to see if they're available to hear it?" And this friend of mine said, um, "Ask them all a question before you share with them. Ask them this question: 'Is there anything I could ever say or do that would make you not love me?' And based on their response, if you feel like they're receiving of it, then you can open up and talk about it." And so I did that one by one with my family and then my friends. And, um, you know, it brought me closer to all of them. They started to open up about things that I didn't know about them, things that they went through I had no clue about. And it brought, it brought us closer together. It created a stronger bond of intimacy and connection. And that was really the journey where I was like, "Wow, I've been missing out my entire life, twenty-five years, of true intimacy and real authentic connection," because I'd been hiding myself from so many people. And it doesn't mean You've gotta reveal all your darkest secrets to everyone right now and publicly. I'm not saying that's the case. Um, but I do believe that we are missing out on something extremely beautiful, and we will never be peaceful and fully free internally or externally until we can accept the things of our past that we're most asha- uh, ashamed of and afraid of and insecure about. Uh, we will always be a prisoner in our heart and mind until we can face it and accept it and embrace it.
- PAPeter Attia
You know, prior to this, this moment, um, what was your relationship like with your parents and your siblings?
- LHLewis Howes
[sighs] I had a challenging relationship with my parents. I had a... It was kinda interesting. I mean, I loved my parents. I had some great moments with them, but I begged them to send me away because I just grew up in a lot of a stressful environment. Um, my parents were kind of explosive with each other growing up. You know, they should have probably never been married. They got married when they're 18. They didn't have the emotional tools, things like that, until later in life. So they stayed together because of the kids, and then just kept having more kids. But they probably shouldn't have stayed married, right? That, that's probably not what should've happened. And so I just grew up in a lot of uncertainty and fear. Um, and I don't blame them, you know. They were doing their best. But it's one of the reasons what made me wanna leave, because I was the youngest. All my other siblings were out of the house now. I was 13, and I was just like, "I don't wanna be in this stress. I wanna, I wanna be in a peaceful environment." So subconsciously, it was like the thing that wanted to drive me away. And I was also doing kinda bad things as this 11, 12-year-old, just stealing and just hanging out with people that weren't the best people, that were influencing me to do bad things. But I wasn't accepted by, like, other people in school, so I just found anyone I could cling onto that would accept me. And I was just like, "I don't wanna be in this environment. I don't wanna live this life anymore. I wanna be around good kids, good people." And, um, so I had... You know, my, my parents were great. They would show up to all my sports games. They were extremely supportive. They encouraged me to follow my dreams. They taught me a lot of great lessons. But their modeling of a relationship was not a good model for me, so that caused some underlying stress. So again, I had a great relationship, but also a I didn't wanna be around them, but I loved them kinda dynamic. Um, and I was away from them for five years. You know, I only went home for, like, couple weeks and Christmas and breaks and here and there. They would come out and visit and watch games, but it would be for a few hours, and then they're gone. So I really just, like, lived alone with roommates from 13 to 18. And, and my siblings were all older. They were off to college doing their life. So we had a good relationship, but I just didn't see them that often. And, um, and I remember at 30, I was like, "I wanna reconnect with my family more and build stronger bonds and stronger relationships." And so that allowed me to, to start that process.
- PAPeter Attia
And your brother, obviously by this point, you know, he's long since back from prison. Sounds like he's got his life completely back together.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
Was he, was he... Was, were you guys close? Um, or, you know, the age gap of 11 years-
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah
- PAPeter Attia
... you know, by that point, he, for all we know, he's, he's got a family. He's, he's kinda moved on. You're the little brother.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
Um, but, but was that... I mean, I... Let me rephrase this question, I guess. When you think about your siblings and your parents and your friends, were you most concerned with, with who in that group of, of having that discussion?
- LHLewis Howes
Probably more my friends, to be honest.
- PAPeter Attia
Hm.
- LHLewis Howes
Because again, I, I still wanted to, like, belong in society beyond my family. You know, your family's gotta kinda love you and accept you no matter what. At the end of the day, they're stuck with you essentially. So I knew that, like, okay, I told my family first, and after I told them, I was like, in my mind, "Well, they have to accept me," you know? And after what my brother went through, of course they're gonna accept me no matter what.
- PAPeter Attia
Mm-hmm.
- LHLewis Howes
Like, um, but my friends, will they accept me? And that was probably the scarier thing to talk to them about. Um, but all of them were extremely, like, supportive and, "Hey, I got your back," and open and loving. And, and, and again, it just brought me a lot of inner peace, which I never had. Because I, I didn't have because I was being inauthentic to who I was and to accepting myself to fully loving and being acceptance of myself. And therefore, others didn't know who I was, and so they weren't able to fully accept me 'cause I wasn't able to reveal who I was, and I think that was the challenge that I was facing with, that I was always putting on a mask. Listen, I was a happy, fun-loving guy. I was very... I was the same as I am now, but I just wasn't as vulnerable. But I was fun. I would, like, play, you know, all these different things. But I just felt like something inside, like, I wasn't revealing, and it was eating me up constantly.
- 47:49 – 1:00:19
Comparing adversity with trauma and finding meaning in struggle
- PAPeter Attia
You know, I know you've had one of my best friends on your podcast, Paul Conti. So Paul, Paul was, uh-
- LHLewis Howes
Oh, man
- PAPeter Attia
... Paul was-
- LHLewis Howes
Gosh
- PAPeter Attia
... probably one of the first people I met in medical school. So we went to med school together, and we've, you know, been largely inseparable since. And y- as you know, Paul's sort of what I would consider one of the, one of the experts on the topic of trauma. One of the things I'm curious about i- is... And as you, as you think about the, the, the, the line between trauma, which would be probably net negative. Again, I, I describe these things as some positive, some negative, but that's probably a net negative-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm
- PAPeter Attia
... versus adversity, some positive and some negative, probably a net positive. Where do you draw that line? A- and I don't necessarily just mean in your life, but I mean, like, as a person thinking about their own experiences, where does one draw that line?
- LHLewis Howes
I try to think of adversity and trauma as Where can I find the meaning in both of them?
- PAPeter Attia
Mm.
- LHLewis Howes
And w- and how can I find the useful tools that could come from them? Before, I think I was just afraid of trauma and more embraced adversity. You know, the challenges of overcoming being down in a sports game or getting a minor injury and fighting through it, you know, playing with a broken wrist for 14 games as an athlete, which is something I did. Playing with three broken ribs, it was kind of like that's the adversity and you just gotta tough it out and overcome adversity. Those are also kind of traumatic events too, like breaking bones and just living with physical wound trauma. Um, but I looked at it differently than the emotional trauma, the psychological trauma, which really shaped my personality and my identity. And as, uh, you know, Dr. Joe Dispenza says, "Your personality becomes your personal reality." And that became part of my personal reality based on these emotional and psychological traumatic wounds. Um, it became my inner world and then a reflection in my outer world of how I would react. And so I really look at them now that both of these events, adversity and trauma, can be extremely beneficial if we find meaning. And usually it's harder to find the meaning from traumatic experiences and things that no one wants to go through, you don't want your enemies to go through, loss of, you know, people close to you, sexual abuse, psychological abuse, you know, horrible things that happen in the world, uh, mass shootings. Like, these things we don't want to happen ever to anyone, and it's hard to find the meaning. But I'm sure as you know, uh, you know, Man's Search for Meaning with Viktor Frankl and Edith Eger, who I've had on a couple of times, who was a Holocaust survivor, and when she talked about watching her parents go into the, you know, the gas chamber, uh, in Auschwitz and the trauma that she faced for so many decades, it wasn't until she went back there herself and was able to face it and forgive herself, because she essentially told the truth to the officer when the officer asked her, "Is this your sister or your mom?" And she said, "My mom." And so she watched her mom go, uh, and be executed, and if she just would've lied and said her sister, maybe her mom would've stayed alive. And she had to, like, r- relive that-
- PAPeter Attia
Mm
- LHLewis Howes
... facing it, and find forgiveness in herself for the teenager that was fearful, insecure, didn't have the tools, wasn't to be able to navigate such a traumatic moment. And, um, she was able to find peace and meaning from that and use the meaning to be of service to others. And I think, um, I don't think any one of us are gonna get out of this life without experiencing some type of little T, big tree, big T trauma, and, and it can all be extremely overwhelming feelings. And I think it's our mission and our goal to figure out what is the meaning from it, how can, how could I benefit from it and serve others in this meaning as well?
- PAPeter Attia
When you think about, uh... D- you don't have kids, do you?
- LHLewis Howes
No, not yet.
- PAPeter Attia
Um, uh, uh, do you think you want to?
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah. So when you, when you think about, um, having kids, um, obviously even though you don't have them I'm sure you can appreciate there's a very protective-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm
- PAPeter Attia
... nature that comes up. I mean, I, I think every parent looks at their kid and thinks, "I want to shield them from the bad things that happened to me."
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
"And I want them to have wonderful experiences."
- LHLewis Howes
Uh-huh.
- PAPeter Attia
And yet, of course, there's always a fear that if we take that to an extreme, we deprive them-
- LHLewis Howes
[laughs]
- PAPeter Attia
... of something.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
Right? Um, you know, for me, and I've talked about this with Paul, I feel like that's a litmus test for me of-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm
- PAPeter Attia
... you know, the type of adversity that is, you know, character building and valuable. Maybe not getting picked for a sports team. It-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm
- 1:00:19 – 1:04:05
Association between adverse childhood events and diseases in adulthood
- PAPeter Attia
I mean, y- I don't know, did you ever take the, um, adverse childhood event score, the ACE test?
- LHLewis Howes
No, but I, I should. Never heard of it.
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah. It's, it's very interesting. So, so we have a lot of our patients take it if, um, if, if it's something that we, we think is interesting and relevant and, and potentially, you know, germane to their care. So it's, um, it's a standardized test of 10 questions, and, um, it's simple yes or no, right? So for example, r- have you been sexually abused? Uh, did you grow up in a household where your parents were divorced? Did you grow up in a household where, you know, one of your parents physically assaulted the other? Did you grow up in a household where you were physically-
- LHLewis Howes
Yes, yes, yes
- PAPeter Attia
... all of these, you just keep going, going, going.
- LHLewis Howes
Yes. [laughs]
- PAPeter Attia
You know, it's funny, one of the things is not did you grow up in a... I don't think I think it's, it... Did you grow up in a household where a parent went to prison? Which I think effectively would be true for you because an 11-year-old sibling-
- LHLewis Howes
Right
- PAPeter Attia
... is effectively a parent.
- LHLewis Howes
Like an old... Yeah, 11-year older, yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah, yeah.
- LHLewis Howes
He was 18.
- PAPeter Attia
So-
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah, I mean
- PAPeter Attia
... y- yeah. So, so if you go through the, the, the ACE, and we'll, we'll link to this in the show notes for our podcast as well.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah, I wanna see that. I wanna take it.
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah, so if you go through and fill out the adverse childhood event score, um, there's a, there's a, um, basically a histogram that shows it- for people who have zero, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight or nine, 10, 10 out of 10, what is the predictive value of this on both physical health and emotional health later in life?
- LHLewis Howes
Geez.
- PAPeter Attia
And it's probably not surprising that the more you score on that, the worse your emotional health.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm.
- PAPeter Attia
Meaning, the greater the likelihood of anxiety, depression, suicidality, and these things. That, that probably doesn't come across as a big surprise. What I think comes across as a bit of a surprise, admittedly, there are confounders here, is physical health.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- PAPeter Attia
Meaning, the higher your ACE, the worse your physical health as you age. Um, and again, I suspect that there is, there's a component to that that's probably confounded by socioeconomic factors that factor into this, right? We're gonna see higher ACE scores in lower socioeconomic status, and therefore, that's going to also confound health status.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- PAPeter Attia
But I can't believe that that's it, right? Like, it, it has to be that, at least in, in my experience looking at this in a, in a small but relatively controlled environment, that, that people aren't able to take care of themselves, which is a big part of health-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm
- PAPeter Attia
... if they have so much unresolved trauma.
- LHLewis Howes
That's what I was gonna say. I think it's, like, if you live with a higher score, meaning you've experienced more traumatic, you know, moments as a kid, I think, and you haven't learned how to heal and navigate them in a healthy coping mechanism way, processing the trauma, healing, and being on the journey of consistent healing, then I just feel like you know more than me. You've been studying the immune system for a long time. Your immune system is so under attack if it's in fight or flight, constantly reliving the past traumatic even- events that you haven't healed yet. So if it feels like it's still a five-year-old, eight-year-old, 12-year-old in these moments, and you're stacking all of them on your body and your immune system at once, connecting the thoughts like Paul Conti talks about, to the immune system consistently, you do that for a long period of time, like, your body probably just can never fully process. It probably can't build the strength and, and recover and get rid of the bad cells the way it needs to with that much trauma. And when I feel like we learn to create the environment of peace and harmony and alignment in our heart connected to our mind, then the body will start to follow. Obviously, we gotta take the right actions and, and do the right decisions of our nutrition and our, you know, our movement and things like that consistently, but
- 1:04:05 – 1:14:41
How addressing his issues with intimate relationships helped Lewis overcome physical pain related to his past trauma
- LHLewis Howes
I just feel like there's a lot less pressure on my heart. And I used to feel a lot of pain in my chest. Uh, and it wasn't until a couple of years ago-
- PAPeter Attia
Ph- physical pain
- LHLewis Howes
... when I really... Physical, like, kind of, like, sharp chest pain, right?
- PAPeter Attia
Mm-hmm.
- LHLewis Howes
That would come and go. And it wasn't related to working out, you know. It was related... I remember the moment. Two years ago, I, I did a five-month intensitive therapy coaching experience. So I did lots of different modalities over the last 10 years. 10 years ago really helped me kind of process the sexual abuse, and I, and I practiced that for a few years, and I really felt peace and free around that kind of experience in life. I processed other stuff with my parents at different stages in the last 10 years. Um, and I really felt like I did a lot of good work, but I was still having this chest pain and this kind of, like, throat clenching, almost kind of like someone was strangling me at different times. Not 24/7, but when there was a trigger, an emotional response to something happening externally, I'd feel like a clench, like someone was strangling me, or someone was, like, pressing a weight on my heart. And it was kind of this chest pain. It was like [inhales] , it's like I couldn't breathe fully. And this was happening on and off, because I still hadn't healed a lot of things in intimate relationships. I was still afraid in intimacy with romantic partners, uh, over the last 10 years. And it wasn't until the last relationship I was in that again, it was kind of like a, a perfect storm of events happening over and over again, where I start to finally recognize and have the courage that I was abandoning myself, and I was repeating this pattern of abandoning who I was, my values, my vision, my, my identity, my beliefs, to please one person that I thought I loved and was in an intimate relationship with. In order to make them happy and, and keep the peace externally with that partner, and partners in the past, I would change who I was to make them happy. And this was a pattern after multiple relationships that I realized, oh, I am at the center. I'm the common denominator of all these previous relationships of why they're not working out. I'm choosing, uh, based on a wound. I'm staying based on a wound, and I'm abandoning myself on who I truly am based on wounds. And so two years ago, I said enough is enough. Like, I don't feel stress or pain around the sexual abuse. I don't feel stress or pain about being picked on as a kid in school anymore. All this stuff, like, I felt like I was able to process that. But I still didn't have the courage to be 100% who I was in intimacy. And I'm so glad I found this, uh, therapist who... She's more of a coach, but she does therapy work, too. [lip smacks] And for the last two years, every two weeks, I do a session with her. And for the first five months, I was going ev- pretty much every week. I was doing five, six, seven-hour sessions on Saturdays, uh, individual sessions and joint sessions in the relationship that I was doing as well. I was like, "This is either gonna work or we gotta get out of this thing." And, um, we gotta figure out how to find harmony together in the previous relationship. [lip smacks] And after five months of doing this, there wasn't any improvement. We weren't aligned on our values. It was so far, me, me in the previous relationship, our values when we start going these sessions together in couples therapy. And it got to the point where I just was finally like, "I can't live like this. I can't be in a relationship with someone and change all my values and beliefs to make them happy. It doesn't work for anym- me anymore." But that's how I w- I was repeating that pattern in previous relationships, and I was attracting people that didn't have the same shared values, vision, and lifestyle. For whatever reason, there was a wound that I was doing this from. And I finally go into-
- PAPeter Attia
A- a- and why do you think that was? I mean, do you think that you were finding somebody that had a hole that you felt you could fill or-
- LHLewis Howes
100%. Yeah, 100%. Yes. I felt like, "Okay, they need me," right? "There's something I can do to support them and help them," and feel needed in a some way. And it wasn't even conscious.
- PAPeter Attia
Mm-hmm.
- LHLewis Howes
But as I reflect back of it, it's an unconscious thing that I was repeating. And also there was, there was a, you know, a pattern that I was following from the model of my parents' relationship. Obviously, that had to be in there as well. And I was trying to fix my parents through the relationships I was in. I was trying to [inhales] find a way in my 5, 8, 10, 16-year-old self, 'cause they got divorced too, on how could I make it work, and they were never just aligned.
- PAPeter Attia
A- and Lewis, was there, you know, in this five-month period, even though it seemed like the relationship was not come- to, uh, make amends, was, were you experiencing changes in you? Were you growing as a, as a, uh... in, in response to this therapy?
- LHLewis Howes
Well, here's the interesting thing, you know. Uh, I f- I feel like I have the opportunity to meet so many interesting people to interview on my show, that I'm interviewing Paul Conti, I'm interviewing, uh, Dr. Ramani, uh, on, on narcissism. I'm interviewing all these different therapists and experts on neuroscience and, and I'm starting to... I'm doing my own therapy. I'm interviewing people about trauma, relationships, healing, and all these things are starting to connect the dots after about five months, and there was a moment. I remember there was a moment [lip smacks] where I went away for a weekend to go to this, like, kinda business mastermind with probably some people that you would know in the industry, and I'm with Tony Robbins and a bunch of people, uh, you know, at this kind of private mastermind event in Florida. And the person I was dating at the time, she was supposed to come, but like the day before, she got mad at me for something and was like, "I'm not going." And I remember going to this event and feeling so much love from people, just feeling like accepted, feeling loved, feeling celebrated for the person that I was showing up as, and yet I wasn't able to experience that, you know, at home and in this relationship. And I was forcing it and trying to make it work and changing who I was to f- to, to belong and fit in in the relationship. And I remember texting the therapist at that time being like, "I, I can't do this anymore. I don't know what to do." And she texted me back s- and said, "The veil... You're starting to lift the veil. You're starting to realize and see the things that aren't working." Right? Whereas before, I was just trying to make them work, and I was giving in and abandoning myself to please one person, but I was abandoning who I was. I wasn't pleasing myself in that, in that, and I was letting go of my authentic highest self. And so over the next like month, we go more and more deeper into therapy together, individually and, and together. [lip smacks] And there was a, a moment where I was doing it with the coach, the therapist, and she was talking about my parents, and I was like, "I just don't wanna feel trapped. I wanna feel free." It was kind of this whole thing was connecting the dots from like 38 years of life and my brother in prison and, and watching my parents be trapped in a relationship and a marriage and be unhappy, and I was afraid of being trapped and all these different things. And for whatever reason, after five months of doing this, she said to me, "Lewis, you're free. You can walk away at any time. You don't need to keep forcing things. You are free." And for whatever reason, it just somehow connected in my heart where I actually understood the concept, 'cause I didn't understand the concept. I didn't believe that I could be free internally, even if things weren't working out externally. And I thought I had to do whatever it took to make it work. I thought I had to go all in even harder and sacrifice who I was to just please one person when we just weren't aligned on our values and vision, and that's okay. [lip smacks] And I lacked the emotional courage to walk away, and I d- I lacked the emotional courage in every relationship before this to walk away when I knew we weren't aligned and we weren't a right match. And in that moment, it's like this whole... all the pain that was in my heart, like I could feel the pain this whole time, somehow like disintegrated. I don't know how to explain this event other than there was a pain in my chest for on and off throughout my entire life, and then it disintegrated, and I haven't felt this pain in the last year and a half. The pain, it, it, it come like a ball of energy that like you kinda felt like there was, I don't know, disintegrating throughout all my body, and it just... I felt like I could breathe, and I had peace internally for the first time. And I believed it and I owned it. And the fascinating thing that happened after this is I started showing up for myself and I didn't abandon myself again over the next, I don't know, few weeks of the relationship. Then I got clear and I was just like, "No, this is my value. This is my boundary. This is what I'm creating." And it didn't... She didn't like that. She didn't like me not giving in and not giving her what she wanted all the time. She wanted me to be the person I was being to give her what she wanted. And I was like, "That doesn't work for me, and here's my boundary, and here's what I'm willing to do, and I'm not willing to do this." And it became so clear to me that it was time to walk away, and I had so much peace even in the chaos of her not liking me ending the relationship. I was never okay with hurting someone that I cared about before this, and so I would just kind of give in and, and mold to try to make it work, abandoning myself in the process. And so it was such a beautiful thing, you know, getting to interview Paul Conti and so many other experts. As I was living this moment and as I was experiencing this, experiencing this physically, emotionally, and connecting the dots mentally and tying it all back to the childhood stuff, it was like, wow, for the actual first time, I feel pain-free in my body. And it wasn't because of something I was doing physical. It was psychological and emotional trauma and wounds that were still hurting me that I hadn't faced and fully
- 1:14:41 – 1:18:54
Healing is a journey that takes time and requires courage to face your fears and insecurities
- LHLewis Howes
addressed. And as my coach and therapist says, you know, "Healing is a journey." You know, it doesn't always happen overnight. There was a moment when the pain went away, but it didn't mean there weren't tremors and, you know, some PTSD feelings that I had to keep breathing through and practicing and integrating these lessons. And, uh, you know, other moments that I was like, "Okay, am I gonna go back into fear and how I used to be, or am I gonna lean into courage, lean into owning who I am, and not abandoning myself?" And every time I kept stepping into the emotional courage and speaking my truth, being real to myself and to the people, uh, that were upset with me and just saying, "Well, I'm sorry you feel this way, but this is my vision and we're just not a good match," it gave me so much more confidence, peace, courage, energy, freedom that I'd never fully experienced in intimate relationships. And it has been a complete game changer in every area of my life since integrating these lessons and being consistent with it when I feel a sense of like, "Ugh, okay, I could go back into that old way of being, but I'm just gonna show up, know that it may be a little, um, disturbance, but it- I'm going to be okay. I'm safe, I'm okay, and I'm gonna be able to manage it." It's, it's been a beautiful journey, but it has taken a lot of emotional training and consistency. I mean, I did an eight-hour therapy session one day on a Saturday to just say, "I'm all in. I'm committed to peace and freedom." And what I've realized is that it's truly hard to f- to live a fulfilling, rich, abundant, um, joyful life, peaceful life unless we are willing to face the wounds, the fears, the insecurities, the shames, the guilt, all that stuff that has held us back. And, uh, the more I interview these experts who study this much more than me, and the more I experience it firsthand and see the actual results personally, I'm just convinced that when we face the emotional trauma, psychological traumas of our past, and we own it and we process it, we will be free.
- PAPeter Attia
I mean, I think one of the things I take away from this story that I, I think is really important for, for anybody listening to you is that, um... And, and you've stated this, but I, I think it's worth reiterating. Th- these are not, um, digital switches, right? So digital, it's either zero or one. So it's not like in 2013 you went to this workshop when your life was about to implode. You, um, obviously had a very powerful experience there, and you reveal perhaps the greatest of the Ts in your bag of Ts.
- LHLewis Howes
Yes. Yes.
- PAPeter Attia
Um, but then you went to one and it was all good. No, it's actually-
- LHLewis Howes
[laughs]
- PAPeter Attia
... it's much more analog, right? Analog is-
- LHLewis Howes
Yes
- PAPeter Attia
... like it dials, and it dials up, and it dials down, and it dials up, and it dials down. And, um, and I think the, the reason I think that's important is it can be very discouraging, I suspect, when-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm
- PAPeter Attia
... you make progress and then you take a step backwards, right?
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah. I, I mean, I thought I did a lot of the work, and then I was like, "Well, why am I still repeating this pattern in intimacy and relationships?" And I was like, "Well, I, I healed this, I healed this [laughs] , but why is this still coming up?" And I think, you know, life is interesting and funny in that way, where every new season or every new chapter or every new stage of life, you know, I'm sure when I have kids, I'm gonna need to face things courageously that have, that are from childhood still or from different wounds that I had that I'm gonna have to face and show up and have the courage and be able to sit in discomfort when my kids are crying or when my sids- kids are sick or when they're afraid. I'm gonna have to learn how to become a better emotional leader and lean into these things that held me back in the past and have that emotional courage. And I think, uh, you know, as we build our business, I'm gonna have to do things I've never done before and step into that emotional courage in relationship, in children, all that stuff. As we age, you know, everything is gonna have to have more and more courage.
- 1:18:54 – 1:29:38
How Lewis thinks about mortality and uses it as motivation to pursue his dreams
- PAPeter Attia
You know, it's funny you mention aging. Y- you're, you're obviously young enough that, you know, y- y- I guess you're not at that point where you're thinking about mortality much or, or are you? I mean, how much do you think about that? I, I'm-
- LHLewis Howes
I think about it every day. I think about it every day multiple times a day. My father just passed away a year ago, and when I was 20 21, he got into a car accident that caused, uh, traumatic brain injury. The car that he got hit by came on top of the windshield, and the bumper of that car came through his windshield and hit him in the forehead, splitting his head open. He was on a trip in New Zealand with his then girlfriend at the time, after my parents had been divorced years later. And, um, he was, you know, cut out of the car, was cut open. They had to airlift him to a hospital in New Zealand, and he was in a coma for three months, asleep. And so this was another traumatic event that happened to someone close to me, someone I cared about deeply, a mentor of mine, someone that was there for me in a lot of ways. And for many years, probably four or five years, I was really angry and upset and afraid because he was, in a lot of ways, a big mentor and a teacher of mine and supported me to chase my dreams. He encouraged me in every way possible to go after my dreams. He did a lo- he gave me a lot of lessons when I was a kid. You know, we... Some things I didn't understand till later. We never s- he never celebrated my birthday, and when I was a kid, it upset me. And then when I was, you know, probably like 9, 10, 11, I was like, "Dad, why don't we ever have a birthday for me? There's all these other kids that have birthday parties, but I never have a birthday party." And he said, "I'd never want you to be limited by your age. Most people I see make an excuse that they're too young to try something or they're too old and it's too late, and I never want you to have that excuse." And so he gave me a lot of meaningful lessons. A- and I was like, "Well, we can still have a cake, Dad. You know, we can still have a party and just not celebrate the age." Um, and so when he went through his coma, it was extremely traumatizing for our entire family. It was kinda like my brother going to prison, like a, that type of experience, where it was this uncertainty, this fear, this loss. He got out three months later, came back to the USA. He couldn't speak for almost a year. So he could barely walk, couldn't speak, and, um, it was so hard to see, again, another hero of mine who didn't have the ability to live his full personality and his life. And for many years, he did, you know, different therapies, physically, psychologically, all these different things. He eventually was able to talk again. He was eventually able to, you know, kind of write some, uh, and, and function minimally.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- LHLewis Howes
But he could never work again. He stayed in home pretty much 24/7. Sometimes he could get out and walk a little bit, but he had so many different broken bones and ammonia and collapsed lungs, and the brain trauma was so intense that he- essentially, he was physically alive, but mentally and emotionally, he had died. And so that was another hard thing to witness. My father, who was a hero of mine and a big inspiration in a lot of ways, not perfect and made a lot of mistakes, but still a big inspiration, unable to have a real conversation with him. Every time I'd see him, it is, "Hey, son. Um, where'd you go to school again? Didn't you used to play... Uh, what sport did you used to play? Oh, that's right, you played football." Um, or sometimes get me confused with my other brother and call me Chris, and it was the same conversation on repeat for 17 years until he just passed a year ago. And again, I don't wish that upon anyone. I don't want anyone's father or loved one to go through a traumatic brain injury car accident and to have them physically alive, but have to take care of them like, you know, a five-year-old. Change his diapers, take care of him, you know, make sure he's not burning himself on the stove. He couldn't drive. He couldn't do any of these things. So it was emo- it was such an emotional sadness to have that loss and see him physically unable to live the life that he once had. When that happened, I got so clear that I was going to do whatever it took. If I had any dream inside of me, I was doing it. The, it was no fear of failure. It was just, "I'm doing it, and if I fail, I'm fine with it because I don't wanna die regretting that I didn't do that, at least go for it." So shortly after that, I went and, and went and tried out for professional football teams and made a pro football team 'cause that was my dream. Then I got injured. Two years later, I, I had this dream of playing in the Olympics, and I moved to New York City. I figured out how to make money and moved to New York City to play with a, a, a handball team and learn the sport of handball and try to make the USA team. I made the USA team a year after that. I traveled the world with the USA team while I'm building a business and doing it digitally and virtually, running webinars and things like that all over the world to pursue a dream that I'm not getting paid to do, just 'cause I knew this is something that I wanted to do and at least give it a shot. Playing in Spain and Israel and Luxembourg and Canada and Mexico and Uruguay and Argentina and Brazil, all over the world, paying for my own travel to represent my country, wear USA across my chest, be able to sing the national anthem and play against Olympic teams on a, on a pursuit of trying to make the Olympics. We never qualified, but it doesn't mean that my dream was... Just because the dream didn't come true doesn't mean it wasn't a dream come true. The experiences, the lessons, the growth, the adversity I faced, the injuries I overcame, all these things. And my dad never was able to watch. He was alive, but he never came to a game. He didn't really understand what life was anymore. So for 17 years- I went after everything in these last 17 years because I knew that this could happen to me at any moment. I knew that my life is not guaranteed today, tomorrow, and it gave me a lot of courage to say yes. I wrote a book before I was 25, and I almost flunked out of English in high school, but I was just like, "I don't care if I'm embarrassed. I'd rather be embarrassed and give it a shot than be regretting that I never tried this and I let the dream die inside of me." And I really believe a lot of people, uh... I really believe self-doubt is the killer of dreams, and people hold onto their insecurities and self-doubt so much that they really never launch the dream or even try for it. And for me, the, the results are irrelevant because it's about the things I learn about myself, the people I meet, the connections, the, the moments that are meaningful along the way. And I know you hear that all the time, but for me, it became so real when my father had this accident. And I had to learn how to accept it, you know, after four or five years when it was just, like, kind of a suffering depression around my father, hoping he'd recover, hoping he'd get back to who he was. I had to learn to accept it, that he sometimes isn't gonna remember who I am, that he's gonna have the same conversation on repeat, that he's gonna forget. He lost a lot of his memory, so he just forgot about childhood stuff. Uh, that he would never call me again, that he- we would never have a meaningful, really re- uh, relationship. And I had some great moments with him and some great conversations, uh, in the last few years before he passed, but it was essentially a really sad time for 17 years. And it was almost like I didn't get to grieve emotionally until last year, um, his death. Even though physically he was alive, he was kind of mentally and emotionally gone. And so I feel like these last two years, therapy, the process of death, uh, my father going through this accident 17 years ago, gave me so much clarity that I've got to take care of my body, I've got to take care of my mind, I've got to take care of my emotions, that it could all be gone at any moment, and I want to be proud of the actions I'm taking. And it doesn't mean I've always been perfect, but I want to be proud knowing that I went after the dreams. So I think about death daily. I reflect on it, I think about it, and I appreciate my life every day.
- PAPeter Attia
You know, just this morning, I ordered one of those calendars that is a week calendar for your life. I'm sure you've seen these calendars. Um-
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah. I saw you having the guy on, Bill Perkins, who was talking about it, right?
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah, so Bill Perkins, uh, who's, who's an amazing guy, and, and yeah, we got talking about that on the podcast, and I was like, "You know what? Like, I'm such an analytical guy, and I feel like I know this."
- LHLewis Howes
[laughs]
- PAPeter Attia
But there's no substitute for the reminder every single day. And so, so-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm
- PAPeter Attia
... actually, just this morning, you know, by coincidence, I, I ordered the calendar. So it's, uh, you know, I set my life expectancy at 88 years, and I plugged my birth date in, and it's already filled in the boxes-
- LHLewis Howes
Wow
- PAPeter Attia
... that are... you know, 'cause I'm basically 50, so it's filled in the first, you know, 50 times 12 boxes.
- LHLewis Howes
[laughs]
- PAPeter Attia
So I'm, I'm more than halfway there, right? More... you know, it's basically-
- LHLewis Howes
Man
- PAPeter Attia
... saying, "This is what 38 years more of life looks." But to your point, look, it could be, could be one month. Like, I don't... we don't know.
- LHLewis Howes
Never know. My d- yeah, my dad went on this trip not thinking he was-
- PAPeter Attia
Of course
- LHLewis Howes
... gonna get in this accident, you know?
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah.
- LHLewis Howes
And it's funny because my friend Nas Daily, I don't know if you've ever seen this creator online. Nas, Nas Daily has worn one shirt for the last, like, seven years, and it's a shirt that has, like, a battery, and it says, like, 33%, uh, life, and that's how much life he's lived. And it shows you how much life he has. Every day he looks in the mirror, he wears the same shirt as a reminder to live his full life today.
- PAPeter Attia
And, and is it a shirt that he changes every year and reduces the percent?
- LHLewis Howes
Exactly.
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah, yeah.
- LHLewis Howes
Every year it changes into a new shirt. He's got like 20 of them-
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah, yeah
- LHLewis Howes
... you know, for the year, and he wears the same thing. He just-
- PAPeter Attia
Mm-hmm
- LHLewis Howes
... it's, he doesn't wear anything else. In every video it says the same thing.
- 1:29:38 – 1:36:56
How anyone can benefit from therapy or coaching, and Lewis’s advice for finding inner peace
- PAPeter Attia
uh, L- Lewis, one, one final thought just before we wrap up. I know we've, we've, we, we don't, uh, we don't have, you know, all day, as much as I'm sure we would enjoy that. Um, y- you've made a very compelling case for how different modalities of therapy have changed your life.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- PAPeter Attia
What do you say to someone who's listening to us or watching us right now who says, "Hmm, I can really see how in Lewis's case that was necessary, you know? But I don't think it's necessary for me. You know-
- LHLewis Howes
Right
- PAPeter Attia
... I, I don't imagine I would ever need therapy. I mean, I never-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm
- PAPeter Attia
... went through the horrific things that he went through." Um-
- LHLewis Howes
Yep.
- PAPeter Attia
"And yeah, I mean, my relationships aren't perfect. Um, you know, I can be a little reactive. Um, but, but, you know, there, there, there can't be any upside in, in talking about this because there's nothing-
- LHLewis Howes
Mm
- PAPeter Attia
... to really talk about." Uh, I'm sure you encounter-
- LHLewis Howes
[laughs]
- PAPeter Attia
... this all the time. H- how do you, h- how do you make the case to somebody like that? Or what's the case that you make?
- LHLewis Howes
Well, I feel, I feel like I've tried a lot of stuff, and I'm sure I could try a lot more, uh, you know, from emotional intelligence workshops for years to I was a... you know, I went to India and studied meditation to become a meditation instructor for many weeks. Um, I, you know, I did... I, I took a, a bunch of guys to ice- uh, to, uh, to Wim Hof in Poland and did, like, a private thing with him jumping in frozen rivers and doing the whole breathing and meditation and ice training and mindset training. Uh, I've done, I've done, you know, seven-day meditation retreats with Joe Dispenza. I've tried lots of different things, and I've done coaching. I've had therapy. I've done all these different things. And here's what I say. You know, I try to think of in a practical sense. As an athlete and studying the great athletes and interviewing a lot of world champions from Kobe Bryant to Novak, uh, Novak Djokovic to Olympic gold medalists, um, all the great athletes who get to the top have coaches. They have coaches in their field of expertise to support them in winning their sport and becoming the best. When they win, they don't say, "I've got it all figured out. Uh, you know, I'm at the top. I've got it all figured out. I don't need coaches anymore." They actually go and hire more coaches that are specialized in different modalities to improve their nutrition and mobility and strength training and, and whatever it might be. They hire more elite coaches when they're at the top to continue to sustain that and get better. They don't say, "I've got it figured out." And for whatever reason, in the matters of emotions, love, relationships, and understanding our own emotions and how we interact with triggering events in the world, I don't really remember being taught how to navigate that as a kid growing up. Sure, I was taught as a, an athlete in a coaching environment how to overcome stressful situations and set goals and work with a team, but when it came to love, when it came to intimacy, when it came to running a business, these aren't things that I learned in school. Some of the things transferred over, but it wasn't really there. And coaches and therapy and workshops have supported me in developing more tools that help me overcome my fears and insecurities and become a better, more authentic version of myself, that allow me to have more peace and more abundance. And I think there's a lot of people that live a really good life, even if they have stresses and they're not, you know, not perfect, but they live a good life, but I think that holds people back from living an abundant, joyful, peaceful life and being willing to just try new stuff. And it doesn't mean everything I've tried works for me, and it doesn't have to work for you either. You know, there's a lot of people that talk about psychedelics and mushrooms and all these things, and that doesn't speak to me. You know, it's not something that calls me in my life at this point. Maybe in the future it will. So be willing to try stuff. Listen to your friends and family. You know, when, when they're listening to you on your podcast, you've got a lot of great recommendations for these things. And, and learn from the experts. Paul Conti's another great person. Learn from what he's doing, and just try stuff. Maybe some of it works, maybe some of it doesn't. But what I will say is do not wait until things get to the perfect storm in your life. Unfortunately, that's what it takes for a lot of people to start doing the work on themselves. But do your best to just be a constant learner and growing and developing in your emotional journey.
- PAPeter Attia
One, one last thing. You've used the word peaceful a lot.
- LHLewis Howes
Mm-hmm.
- PAPeter Attia
I, I suspect that's not a coincidence or an accident. I think that's probably quite deliberate. Um, why is that?
- LHLewis Howes
Well, I don't know if transformation is peaceful. I think it can be very, you know, stressful and overwhelming and, uh, it can feel a lot when you're in the transformation of, you know, r- reflecting on a previous identity of who you are, challenges, pain. It can feel overwhelming, it can feel scary, messy, all those different things. But I think, uh, inner peace is the greatest currency. I think in a world that we've been going through the last couple years, stress, overwhelm, you know, COVID, isolation, economic crisis that's happening now, war, all these different things, mental health, uh, being talked about more than ever, I believe inner peace is the highest currency that human beings can cultivate and can manifest and, and develop. Um, there's a lot of wealthy, rich people financially who have very little inner peace, and they suffer emotionally, and their relationships are at risk, and their health is at risk. And there are a lot of wealthy people that die young, uh, because of the stresses and the traumas that they have yet to heal. Inner peace for me is the, the greatest currency. It's the thing that I think a lot of us want. It's the thing we seek, we desire. Um, but a lot of us just haven't been taught the tools. And so for me, I wanna have inner peace so that I can take on the problems and the pain and the stresses that are, that are outside of me with more poise, with more grace, with more mature leadership qualities as opposed to reactive, frustrated, stressed, anxious, overwhelmed qualities. And the great coaches that I've had were able to face adversity, challenges, stress, multiple personalities of teammates with poise, with calm, because they had inner calm. And those are the people that I respected the most because they were able to navigate situations in life that were chaotic with grace. And I think that will support you in anything, in your marriage, your relationship, your family, your friends, your community, your business online, your platform, your career, and really just navigating your own life. So for me, inner peace is the greatest currency, and I think we should all be seeking to, to develop it.
- 1:36:56 – 1:39:27
Lewis’s newest book, The Greatness Mindset
- PAPeter Attia
Well, Lewis, thanks so much. Um, because we didn't really [laughs] talk that much about your book, let's tell folks the title of the book, when it's out, and, and anything else you wanna, you wanna talk about.
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah. The Greatest Mindset. I'm excited about it. It's, um... This is 10 years in the making really for me. This is a culmination of all the research from experts like yourself, you know, B- Paul Conti's in there, uh, a lot of different experts from neuroscientists to doctors to world-class athletes, and kind of tying the, all the same things together but said in different ways on how to get clear on your meaningful mission so that your life has a lot of purpose and a richness and an excitement to it, to heal the different things of the past that have hold you back. And some of these things have actually helped you get to where you are, but it's not helping you get to where you wanna be. in an abundant renewable energy way. And so figuring out how to do that and the process that I've learned over the last decade to really setting clear what I call greatness goals to help you make a bigger impact on the people around you. And you know, for me, I always wanted to be successful, uh, but I realized that success was very selfish and me-centric. And when I hit 30, I said, "How can I make everyone else win around me?" And greatness became the thing I wanted to achieve more, because greatness is about me pursuing my dreams and impacting those around me in that pursuit as well. It wasn't about competition, it was about collaboration. That's why I made a show that was about lifting others up and shining the light on others. And so this has been a 10 years of research of helping people get clear on what's holding them back, on the main cause of their self-doubt, and then supporting on the frameworks on overcoming that and living a more abundant life.
- PAPeter Attia
Well, congratulations on, on, on getting it to the goal line. Uh, as a first-time author, I, I know it's very difficult, so [laughs] yeah.
- LHLewis Howes
You know the, you know the challenge. [laughs]
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah, yeah. Um, and, uh, I'm, I'm sure folks will be really happy to, to pick this up and have sort of a, a, a codified distilled version of a lot of the stuff we've talked about, and more, 'cause there's more in there than obviously. We've e-
- LHLewis Howes
Yeah
- PAPeter Attia
... we haven't scratched the surface of really the book. I think we've made the case for the book.
- LHLewis Howes
Yes.
- PAPeter Attia
And, and now really the, the question is can you go there and find the resources? So, so thank you, Lewis.
- LHLewis Howes
I appreciate it. Thanks so much. [upbeat music]
Episode duration: 1:39:27
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Transcript of episode oWDpSjxiiyk
