Peter Attia MD288 ‒ The impact of gratitude, serving others, embracing mortality, and living intentionally
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
75 min read · 15,280 words- 0:00 – 1:15
Intro
- WGWalter Green
Whether you're saving money for your kid's college, if you wait till they're a junior in high school, it's tough.
- PAPeter Attia
Hmm.
- WGWalter Green
Not much time. If you wanna save for retirement, if you wait until your 60s, it's really tough. If you wanna start being grateful and you wanna wait till your 80s, it's really tough. But if you can build that, which I hope I'm building in millions of young people, this awareness and expression of gratitude. It's not just awareness, it's expression of gratitude because they will be enriched by expressing it and the person receiving it will be. So I actually think, and my dream and my hope, is when I say the word pay it forward, most people know what I'm talking about. They know the concept of pay it forward means if somebody does something nice for you, you in turn will do something nice for three people, not necessarily have to do something for the person who was nice to you. I want say it now to become as ubiquitous, as common as that.
- PAPeter Attia
[upbeat music] Hey everyone, welcome to the Drive podcast. I'm your host, Peter Attia.
- 1:15 – 4:36
How Peter and Walter met through Ric Elias
- PAPeter Attia
Hey Walter, thank you so much for making the trip out to Austin from San Diego. Uh, it's been two years or about a year and a half since we met.
- WGWalter Green
Right.
- PAPeter Attia
Um, for folks listening, we met at, uh, the, the, the home/party of a very close, uh, mutual friend to both of us, Ric Elias, who's also been a guest on this podcast. Uh, and Ric did something very special for that two-day event, which was really not a celebration of anything. It wasn't a birthday or anything like that. It was simply, uh, Ric deciding he wanted to bring a handful of his closest friends together for no reason other than to let us meet each other, uh, which I thought was a very beautiful, um, expression of friendship. And I suppose exactly as he planned, I am still in very close touch with a number of the people I met there, which I think means it was mission accomplished. Uh, did you have a similar experience?
- WGWalter Green
So, uh, first I thought that's perhaps one's greatest gift. If you can give the gift of a special relationship to people you care about, there is no more beautiful gift. And he structured that in an incredible way providing entertainment, but mostly the opportunity where there was no introduction needed. Everybody knew each other because we all knew Ric. And, uh, I've, uh, heard about the impact of, uh, some of the words that I shared and so, uh, Ric has also shared what's going on with others. So, um, I've been in touch with a few and, uh, it's, it's very special when you can, at this stage of my life, to connect with people that have been qualified, discriminated, selected and with very high standards. So it was a real treat.
- PAPeter Attia
It wasn't that we got to sit with everybody in an intimate setting because we were only there for basically 30 hours so I don't know how many meals that turned into. But clearly the most interesting discussions, or at least the closest discussions, took place over meals. And so by, by fortune, you and I happened to be seated next to each other and maybe it wasn't an accident 'cause if my, my recollection is they were assigned seating for every meal. So for one of the meals you and I sat next to each other which led to the inevitable, "Hey, what's your relationship to Ric?" 'Cause that was I think the way we all started our discussion and your son and Ric's son went to business school together.
- WGWalter Green
Actually, Ric-
- PAPeter Attia
That's right, your son and Ric-
- WGWalter Green
Ric, yes
- PAPeter Attia
... I'm sorry, went to business school together, yeah. [laughs]
- WGWalter Green
[laughs]
- PAPeter Attia
Let's not make Ric older than he is. Um, but somehow we pivoted quickly from that into your story and what you're passionate about which is really what we're here to talk about today. Um, but again, my recollection, Walter, is that it wasn't you talking about your current project as much as it was an evolution of your life story. I probably in my usual way just started pestering you with questions. Where'd you grow up? And you know, w- tell me about your childhood and what brought you to where you are. And uh, I was really riveted by the discussion so I think maybe for the sake of the listener I'd like to reproduce as much of that as possible. Um, so tell me, tell us,
- 4:36 – 11:15
The unique perspectives and life lessons provided by Walter’s challenging childhood
- PAPeter Attia
where did you grow up?
- WGWalter Green
Yeah, so first of all I consider that the ultimate compliment when someone shows the interest in someone else so, uh, it's never pestering to me. It's always, uh, for, uh, very satisfying. So you know I was thinking about, uh, my life basically. You know I'm in a very reflective mood at this age [clears throat] and it's basically been three stages. I probably would call the first stage, and they've been running around 28 years i, in there, 28, 29 seems to be my staging. Haven't quite completed my-- Well, pretty much completed the third stage. [laughs]
- PAPeter Attia
How old are you, Walter?
- WGWalter Green
I'll be 85 next month.
- PAPeter Attia
Okay.
- WGWalter Green
So the first 29, 28, 29 years were pretty much finding myself. Um, just big picture. The next 29 were making myself and the last 29 have been becoming myself. So what would you like to know more of?
- PAPeter Attia
Well, I feel like so much of what defined the second and third, 'cause we're gonna h- we're talking probably a lot about the insights that have come in the third phase, but I suspect the seeds of those were sown in the, in the first phase. So if you're 85 it means that you were born, uh, at the tail end of the Depression, right? You're, you're born in the late 1930s
- WGWalter Green
1938.
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah.
- WGWalter Green
Mm-hmm.
- PAPeter Attia
And so you're born before the war. You come of age in the, uh, you know, when the baby booners, baby boomers are coming alive. Um, what was your childhood like, and, and where was it? I know you were on the East Coast, but I can't remember where.
- WGWalter Green
Yeah, so the... You know, I basically, when I think about it, I think kind of what doesn't break you makes you. [chuckles] Uh, the f- the childhood was, for me, challenging. Uh, my father was a, a dreamer, and he, uh... When I was one year old and my brother was two, uh, he found a place that he thought in the Adirondacks would make a great dude ranch, and he had been relatively successful. He had saved, I think, $40,000-
- PAPeter Attia
Wow
- WGWalter Green
... back then, which was a lot of money. And so he... Actually, it was a chicken farm. It didn't work out as a chicken farm, converted it to a dude ranch, and the third year after it opened, there was a big flood, wiped out the bridge, and we went essentially bankrupt. So my father at the time was in his 40s, um, and so we had to move back into Bronx in New York in a two bedroom with his parents, who didn't speak English. And f- really, that first stage, I think I lived in 16 different cities. So I won't go into all the details except to say that it really did set the stage for my life. Um, but it wasn't just the movement from, you know, the Adirondacks to the Bronx to Elizabeth, New Jersey to Albany, New York to Schenectady, New York, Coral Gables, Florida, Jacksonville, Florida. It wasn't the cities. It was, uh, that my mother got cancer when I was nine, and, uh, we went on our first vacation as a family. She recovered. Back then, they were doing major mastectomies for breast cancer. And our first vacation to Florida when we were living i- in Albany, New York, my father was coming a couple days later. It was our first family vacation, the four of us, and my mother got a call that he had a heart attack. So she had to fly home, which was never easy from Florida to New York as it is today. Um, and so began a very different way of life. I was 11 years old, uh, and we were reminded that we needed to make sure our dad was okay. He was 47 at the time. So that was a game changer. And, um, the two things I remember, uh, specifically were all this movement preempted any chance to have a relationship. I didn't have any friends. It made no sense to have a friend. I was gonna be moving-
- PAPeter Attia
Mm
- WGWalter Green
... in a year or two. So this absence of a relationship, and I've always found in life that I think people who are really motivated are people who haven't had it. When you have had it, I think it's a little bit more difficult to be motivated. So not ever having a friend, really, until I was... I had a few in high school, but prior to that, none. So the combination of no relationships and a fear that back then with breast cancer, five years was a long time. I got very lucky with my mother. Uh, she lived a, a long life, uh, had cancer again, but survived that as well. Um, I went off to school at, uh, University of Michigan and, uh, two months later, I got that phone call that my father had died from a fatal heart attack.
- PAPeter Attia
And he was in his 50s?
- WGWalter Green
He was 53.
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah.
- WGWalter Green
And his brother died at 53. So, um, my dad was a little older than I was as a father, and so we didn't have much in common, and most of my concern was his welfare and, and his concern was his welfare-
- PAPeter Attia
Hmm
- WGWalter Green
... and trying to provide for the family. Um, but the gift that I got was this incredible branding that life is short. It's unpredictable. You never know. And from then on, I've been walking up escalators. I just... That's the way I live. I'm very intentional. I don't take anything for granted. And so that was my major, uh, gift from my father. Um, so those-- Mm. That was a tough period. I graduated from University of Michigan, which was a struggle, 'cause academically, uh, that was really tough for me. But I managed to get through.
- 11:15 – 19:10
Walter’s harrowing experience with a sudden mental breakdown and his subsequent recovery with the help of therapy
- WGWalter Green
Then after a short stint in the Army, took a job with a fraternity brother. I had no place to go. Uh, I wasn't gonna go back to Jacksonville, Florida. His father was in the industrial textile business, and I got assigned to Pittsburgh. Now, industrial textiles is another word for shop towels or rags. Depends [chuckles] on how glamorous you wanna make it. But the, uh... That was probably my, oof, 11th or 12th job. I was selling women's shoes when I was a teenager. I had been working ever since I could get qualified to get a job. I was always afraid that I'd be on my own. In any case, I didn't have many options, so I went to sell rags in Pittsburgh. Um, two months after I started, I came back to Ohio at the- corporate offices, and I was told I was doing a really good job. And the man who had been training me, who was an older man, I thought was a really nice guy. And at that sales meeting, I got this message, "Uh, Walter, you're doing so well. Just as soon as you could learn that job, we're gonna let that man go." And I went back to Pittsburgh, and I couldn't get out of my bed. And so, um, uh, there was no mental illness in our family. Nobody really understood 'cause they couldn't see it. So I ended up being hospitalized and, um, didn't talk about that for 40 years because back then it was a real stigma. I thought it would influence getting into a profession, relationships. Uh, being in a mental hospital was not something that you told people about.
- PAPeter Attia
T- tell me a little bit more about how, how that happened. So you're obviously in your mid-20s at this point.
- WGWalter Green
22.
- PAPeter Attia
22. You, y- you, you hear this news. It obviously upsets you. You go back home. When you say you couldn't get out of bed, I assume you mean the, the feeling of dysthymia and helplessness was so great that you had no desire to do anything?
- WGWalter Green
Yeah, so when I said go back home, I wanna clarify. Home for me at that time was an apartment with three guys. I had moved into a YMCA for a couple nights trying to figure out where I was gonna live, and so I was in a room with three strangers. That's who I had been living with for two months. So I came back from the corporate meeting from Ohio and went to where I was living. I didn't call it home. It was a rental apartment with three other guys. Um, I never had it before. I never had it since, but what happened was that I essentially, I don't know, I would say I became catatonic. I just froze. I could not move. And so I literally somehow they got me on a plane to Florida and got me to Miami, and then they said, "You'd be best off in a hospital in Massachusetts." So I flew up and spent-
- PAPeter Attia
And what was the length of time from when you returned to Pittsburgh to when you wound up in that institute in Massachusetts?
- WGWalter Green
Less than two weeks.
- PAPeter Attia
And what did-- You know, your mom was obviously still alive. What was her reaction, and what did you say to her?
- WGWalter Green
They had no idea. They just knew that this young boy who was president of his high school fraternity and president of his college fraternity and this a very mature young man was incapable of moving. And to show you how things were at that time, I had a uncle who was very close to our family, and he saw me in bed, and he said, "Walter, just get up. Just, just get up. You're fine." [laughs] He had no comprehension of what being s- mentally sick was.
- PAPeter Attia
And what, what happened when you got to the hospital?
- WGWalter Green
So it was, um, a series of treatments, um, mostly dialogue and medication. And when I arrived there, it was, it was very difficult 'cause when I saw others, I thought, "Wow, they, they really look sick." But I really couldn't do anything on my own. So went from there to moving to Cambridge, which I always have to laugh about 'cause when I tell people I graduated from University of Michigan and then spent some time in Cambridge, they always thought, "Oh, this guy is really smart, and he's really modest, man." [laughs]
- PAPeter Attia
Went to that little school back east just outside of Boston.
- WGWalter Green
Right. Yeah. So it-- really, that wasn't what brought me to Cambridge, but, uh, it was a terrific experience for me. I learned so much about myself. I was so afraid of failing, and I failed, and I survived. So it was a great experience. I spent two years in therapy, learned a lot about myself.
- PAPeter Attia
How long were you hospitalized?
- WGWalter Green
Uh, two, three months.
- PAPeter Attia
A- again, um, you mentioned that there was medications involved. Do you remember what types of medications of the era? I don't have a, a, a deep enough knowledge of what the-
- WGWalter Green
No
- PAPeter Attia
... sorta psychiatric, but presumably some sort of era-appropriate antidepressants.
- WGWalter Green
Apparently. Uh, yeah, I really can't-
- PAPeter Attia
Did they use, uh, uh, shock therapy?
- WGWalter Green
I didn't have any shock therapy.
- PAPeter Attia
Okay.
- WGWalter Green
Uh, so, um, it was a great learning opportunity for me. It was fantastic. Uh-
- PAPeter Attia
How did you know you were ready to leave?
- WGWalter Green
Oh, that's a funny story, actually. I was seeing a therapist, and it was inconvenient. I was seeing him a couple times a week, and I'm thinking, "This is, like, cut--" At the time, I, I was in public accounting. I was selling mutual funds on the weekends. I was really busy, and having to go to this therapist, it wasn't convenient. I finally said to him after two years, I said, uh, "Listen, when, when do I finish?" He said, "I think you're done." [laughs] That was it.
- PAPeter Attia
But, I mean, when did you leave the actual hospital? After two to three months-
- WGWalter Green
Yes
- PAPeter Attia
... what prompted that?
- WGWalter Green
Oh, what prompted leaving the hospital?
- PAPeter Attia
The actual, yeah. Which-
- 19:10 – 24:00
A diverse professional journey ending in great success
- WGWalter Green
again.
- PAPeter Attia
So you mentioned insurance, so I assume when you got out of the hospital, you did not go back to the textile company?
- WGWalter Green
Oh, for sure. Uh, actually, I s- I w- I mentioned, uh, public accounting.
- PAPeter Attia
Mm-hmm.
- WGWalter Green
So I was in public accounting for three years, so I got certified as a public accountant. And in the evenings, I was selling mutual funds 'cause I wasn't paid enough, uh, in public accounting at that time to survive on my own, so, uh, I had two jobs.
- PAPeter Attia
All right. So continue with the story. I love it.
- WGWalter Green
My brother called, actually. My brother Ray called from Florida, and he said he had just made $1,000 in his part-time. And I said, "That's, that's more money than I'm making from my other two jobs. What'd you do?" He described he was involved in a multi-level marketing for a fellow by the name of Bob Cummings. And, uh, you'd be impressed 'cause it had to do with health. They were nutrition through biochemistry. It was a sale of vitamins and minerals. And Bob Cummings, I think he had, like, seven kids, and he looked half his age. So I was anxious to make $1,000, so I became a distributor. That was my third job. Uh, I put an artic- a little card up in the laundromat where I was, uh, near where I was living, and, and, uh, the first person... I- it said, "If you wanna earn money in your part-time, please give me a call." You wouldn't get away with that today, but back then that was okay. [laughs] So, um, person answered the phone. Um, actually, I answered the phone. The person on the phone said, "I'll come over." And I had my little audiovisual kit and the slides and everything, and she seemed really interested in selling the vitamins. And, uh, as it turned out, Bob Cummings said it solved arthritis, and they shut him down three weeks later. So I lost my $500, which is all I had. But my first salesperson became my wife.
- PAPeter Attia
Mm.
- WGWalter Green
So it was the best thing that ever happened to me, and that was at 22. We were married at 24.
- PAPeter Attia
[laughs] So what did you continue to do professionally?
- WGWalter Green
Okay. Sorry for this long, uh, list of activities, but I then went into the hotel field. Um, and actually we moved to, uh, New Orleans, another move, and, uh, really decided hotels weren't for me. A search firm called and said there's a large food service company in New York. Would I like to be the vice president of administration? So, uh, Lola, my wife, and I were, I call ourselves single. We didn't have any children at the time. Um, [lip smack] um, but right prior to the move, she became pregnant and delivered twins when we moved to New York for my other job, and I decided really the restaurant field wasn't for me either. So now I'm with, uh, twin boys and, uh, in a field that still didn't work for me.
- PAPeter Attia
Mm.
- WGWalter Green
And I del- I had really developed a lot of competencies, and when I mentor people and mentor young people as I do today, those competencies I knew were transferable. And then, uh, I was contacted by someone who had a startup company in a new industry, a new niche of an existing industry, which is the development of high-end executive conference centers for corporations, mainly Fortune 500 companies, as an alternative to meeting in hotels. So they were specially designed facilities with guest rooms and fitness and dining and, and recreation instead of the folding walls and the-
- PAPeter Attia
Okay
- WGWalter Green
... bad acoustics and all the things. And so that was a startup company. Uh, I put my $10,000 that I had into a very, very, very small percentage of the company. And, uh, it was funny. It wasn't until I did that that I began to think with more compassion about my dad, who had taken his 40,000 and put his life savings when he had a one and two-year-old, and I had twin one-year-olds.
- PAPeter Attia
Mm.
- WGWalter Green
And I was doing the same thing as he did in a very, uh, unestablished, brand-new niche of the hospitality business. As it turned out, the company almost went bankrupt in three years. Same pattern. [laughs] And, um, the founders were asked to leave, and I was given the opportunity to become president. I was 32 years old, had 400 employees, and over the next 25 years became the major shareholder. We had 10 centers, ran about 6,000 conferences a year with 150,000 executives, and that was my main event. Became a company that was owned by myself and some key executives.
- 24:00 – 32:15
The birth of a movement: celebrating friendships through public tributes and expressing gratitude to those who have shaped your life’s journey
- PAPeter Attia
Where in this journey does the thesis emerge for what became, you know, your 50th birthday, if I recall, right? Something-
- WGWalter Green
Yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
You, you did-
- WGWalter Green
Yeah
- PAPeter Attia
... something special at your 50th birthday-
- WGWalter Green
Right
- PAPeter Attia
... which in many ways became kind of the The central theme of, of what we're talking about
- WGWalter Green
Right. So now I'm into act two, uh, the second 29 years. And so what I never really had, as I described in act one, were good friends. And so now I was in my same home, and I was gonna live there for an extended period of time. And so I began to make friends. I'm not talking acquaintances. I'm talking about people who I had authentic conversations with. And I was so joyful that when I had my 50th birthday, that I wanted to celebrate those friends. And so I invited the five of them with their spouses and my family. There were 17 of us. I remember it like it was yesterday. It was just the opening weekend of Phantom of the Opera.
- PAPeter Attia
Hmm.
- WGWalter Green
And I really spoiled these people for a whole weekend. And I really, at that time, was still limited in my cash, but I s- I knew I was coming close to 53. So it was important for me to celebrate those friends. And so, uh, at the reception, I paid tribute to each one of them in front of everybody about how they enriched my life, what they had meant to me. And, um, like Rick's affair, some of these people didn't even know each other, but they became connected through me. And so that was really my first iteration of this paying profound tribute to people while I was alive.
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah. I wanna, I wanna talk a little bit more about that. I mean, a lot of people would say, "Sure, I could invite some friends over for my birthday, and I'll, I'll make a toast to my friends," but this isn't exactly what we're talking about here. Uh, uh, y- this is, this is a bit more profound than that. Um, how deliberate were you in this first rendition or manifestation of Say It Now, and how much preparation did you put into what you would do with your five closest friends for that celebration?
- WGWalter Green
Yes. Well, it began with the invitation, [chuckles] and I mailed out a carton of apples. And in each apple, I planted a flag, and each flag was a representation of another activity during that weekend. And everybody appreciated the invitation except my son, who was going to school at Dartmouth, and he said it was quite something carrying that crate of apples in the snow. [chuckles] But everybody else seemed to like the idea.
- PAPeter Attia
[laughs]
- WGWalter Green
In any case, we had, uh, our, our twin sons played the role of the Phantom. They came in off of the, the, uh, platform outside the room before with the smoke and the, and prior to the reception. We had some wonderful dinners, wonderful show, rides on the carriage. It was a, it was a life event that everybody really thought was extra special. I also created for each of them a memento of a picture and then a summary, which I still have to this day, of two lines, two sentences, what each one present had meant to me, and I distributed that memento at the end.
- PAPeter Attia
How surprised do you think they were by what you said and how much you made this day, which-- Look, for most people, when they're celebrating their 50th birthday, it's all about them. You seem to make this more about your friends. Do you think that caught them off guard, and, and can you tell how moved they were by that?
- WGWalter Green
Uh, well, it was my first experience seeing how much people appreciate being appreciated and made more so when you do it publicly. And I received, within a couple months, I think, a leather-bound book that I still read to this day, oof, of what that weekend meant to them.
- PAPeter Attia
M- Meaning they collectively put this together as a gift back to you.
- WGWalter Green
Right.
- PAPeter Attia
So did you, did you think at that point that this was a movement that could be larger than just something you did at your birthday?
- WGWalter Green
No, this was at the time just... You know, and thinking about my life, I- I've never won any academic awards, ever. And yet, when I look back on it, I seem to lead most groups. And I began to wonder, "Why is that?" I'm never the smartest in the room. And it... I think I began to realize that I am a kind of like an experiential learner. I kind of watch what's going on, and I learn from that experience. So for me, though, that, that left an indelible impression, but for me, that was still locked into this fear that 53 may be done for me.
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah.
- WGWalter Green
So it had no longer term view than that. I'd never had a longer term view of my life. I remember attending a seminar when I was in a young president's organization. The woman had an experience where she said, "I'd like you to close your eyes." I was, I don't know, must've been less than 50, maybe late, late 40s, and they said, "Just close your eyes. Picture what an ideal future would look like." [sniffs] I closed my eyes, and it was black Tears ran down my face. I went up to her 'cause she was a psychologist. I said, "I don't understand. I assumed this was a positive experience for everybody. This was painful." She said, "Does that have anything to do with how long you think you might live?" Man, of course, that was what it was related to. So to your question, Peter, this was never the beginning of what happened later on. There were two more. It seems like things happen in threes. That was the first act. There was a second act when I was 70. That was a different story.
- PAPeter Attia
Before we talk about that, you, you alluded to the idea that a part of the magic of this experience was that you didn't just tell these five people how much they meant to you. You did it publicly. Why did you decide to do that even at the time? Was that just intuition, um, or did you have a, a, a stronger belief set that it was more meaningful to do it that way as opposed to tell each of them privately the exact same things that you would've said?
- WGWalter Green
Oh, I love that question. I had spent, by that time, 20 years in the conference business, and one of the-
- PAPeter Attia
Hmm
- WGWalter Green
... focus that I had that was transferable was that I always saw the power of expressing something in a group, so that if 10 people told you individually something, it was not as powerful as 10 people gathering to tell that person. And so for me-
- PAPeter Attia
In the positive and the negative?
- WGWalter Green
Uh, w- both, for sure.
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah.
- WGWalter Green
For me, it's always generally been the positive. And it's... So once again, the life experience is, Walter, there's power in a group. There's power there. And so it seemed quite natural to me.
- 32:15 – 42:45
Intentionality, thinking in reverse, saying “no”, and other guiding principles for Walter
- PAPeter Attia
Is there anything between 50 and 70 that... I mean, aside from the obvious, which is at some point you're 54 and you realize you did it. At what point does the fear of, you know... Well, you know, it's funny, right? Mortality is 100% guaranteed, right?
- WGWalter Green
Right.
- PAPeter Attia
So, so this idea that like, you know, we're afraid of dying is, is a bit misguided. In some ways it's we're afraid we don't know when we're going to die.
- WGWalter Green
Mm-hmm.
- PAPeter Attia
There's probably some fear of not existing as well and, and understanding that life is finite. But h- how did you come to grips with that as with each passing year you found yourself alive?
- WGWalter Green
Well, it, it was a gift that kept on giving, uh, because I always had my foot down on the pedal. Not to the metal, but down on the pedal.
- PAPeter Attia
Hmm.
- WGWalter Green
Uh, I, uh, acquired, uh, an innate intentionality that when people to this day say, "How do you do what you do?" And I said, "One of the big reasons is I'm really good at deciding what I don't do."
- PAPeter Attia
Hmm.
- WGWalter Green
And I've... It's guided my life. So I knew however long I would have, I was just gonna make the most of it, and, um, I was very grateful for every year.
- PAPeter Attia
That, that's a really important point, Walter. At what stage in your career did you go from kind of always incoming, receiving, taking every opportunity that comes your way to this more deliberate focus on saying "no"? Because I'm sure that the day you graduated from college you would've done anything, or I mean-
- WGWalter Green
Anything
- PAPeter Attia
... you did anything.
- WGWalter Green
Right.
- PAPeter Attia
Um, but at some point, as a person matures and becomes more successful and they have more and more obligations, the, the "no," uh, button becomes a very important button.
- WGWalter Green
Right.
- PAPeter Attia
How, how did you discover that, and what were your guiding principles?
- WGWalter Green
I would say that the fine-tuning of that, it-- for, for examp- I, I always was concerned how much time, but that doesn't give you focus. That gives you just a concern for time. But I attended a program at the Center for Constructive Change, um, when I was in my 30s. It was taught by Fred Jervis, may he rest in peace. And it was a process of thinking that has changed every day of my life.
- PAPeter Attia
Hmm.
- WGWalter Green
I do not think in traditional ways that I thought before that. I always think in reverse. So when I'm thinking I'm going to have the pleasure of spending time with you, I don't think-- I never would ask you, "What will we do?" I would specifically say, "If this conversation is really successful, what would've happened by the end of it for us to know that our time was well spent?" I ask that question for everything important that I do every day.
- PAPeter Attia
Including personal interactions?
- WGWalter Green
Including personal interactions.
- PAPeter Attia
Hmm. I wanna talk about that a little bit because that makes a lot of sense in some contexts, right? It makes a lot of sense at a meeting, right? If you have your senior leadership in for a meeting, it's, it's really important to say, "What is the desired outcome of this meeting? How do I want behavior to change? How do I, you know, how do I want people to feel?" Whatever. On the other hand, I have a hard time wrapping my head around that in, uh, y- y- you know... And I'm not saying, I'm not pushing back on the idea. I'm just sort of thinking through it, which is, y- you know, I'm going away with my, one of my kids for the weekend. And you're saying instead of thinking through the activities you're going to do, walk me through what you're thinking
- WGWalter Green
Yeah. So, uh, I'll give you a real-life example. Uh, I was actually doing mentoring with one of Jason's friends. He came to see me, and he said, "You know, I-"
- PAPeter Attia
Jason's one of your sons.
- WGWalter Green
Yes.
- PAPeter Attia
Yep.
- WGWalter Green
Sorry. So one of his friends. He was, I think, in his 30s at the time. And, uh, he, he just came down to see if he could get some coaching. Uh, and so I said, "Well, give me some situations you're dealing with." He said, "Walter, I work so hard during the day, and then I go home, and I spend all my energy with my kids. From morning to night, at the end of it, they don't seem very fulfilled, and I'm exhausted, and then I start all over again." "Wow, that's a tough life. Hmm. I have a question you might wanna ask them." They're now, I think, nine and 11 years old. I said, "When you get home Friday night, why don't you ask them the question, uh, to each of them, 'If this were a really a fantastic weekend, what would you like to have happen over the weekend?'" They obviously gave them specifics. He was able to do it in, like, a third of the time. The kids had a fantastic time, and he had two-thirds of his time to relax.
- PAPeter Attia
Now, do you always need the input of someone else when you're thinking through that?
- WGWalter Green
No.
- 42:45 – 50:40
Walter’s global journey of gratitude on his 70th birthday: visiting friends and creating memorable experiences
- PAPeter Attia
So you mentioned something at 70, the second sort of phase of, of insight. Say a little more about that.
- WGWalter Green
Yeah. So now I had this experience when I was 50, and so still being sensitized to the 50s, thinking, "Well, my father never worked out and I've been working out since I've been 30, so I've got a few more years over him, so my adjusted age is 58, 59, 60." So it's still present. [clears throat] So I'm... Well, they have these moments. It was Tim Russert's funeral that I saw. Tim Russert-
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah, died at about, what, 2007?
- WGWalter Green
Fifties. Yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah.
- WGWalter Green
2007, 2008, 2000... And he was in his early fifties. I thought he was brilliant with Meet the Press. Never been a moderator, in my view, that's been better. And at his funeral with former presidents and astronauts and celebrities, the tributes were unbelievable. And it occurred to me...
- PAPeter Attia
He never got to hear it.
- WGWalter Green
He's never gonna hear a word of it. That registered. I thought, "That doesn't make sense." And then I, I, I briefly mentioned I'm reading challenged, so reading books are, are very difficult unless they can be done in small chapters with no recall of the previous chapter. So I, I was able to, uh, read with Tuesdays with Morrie that had been written, where in his final years, he got very authentic and very deliberate. And I remember reading part of The Last Lecture, which a professor at Carnegie Mellon, I think, and, and he wanted to do one last lecture because he was dying from cancer, and he wanted to leave a message for his kids.
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah.
- WGWalter Green
I'm thinking, "Wow." And then the KPMG chairman in his fifties got brain cancer, I believe it was brain cancer, had four months to live, and he wrote a book called Chasing Daylight about what he wanted to do in the last four months. Experiences, experiences, experiences. It's either too late or it's almost too late. I don't want that to be my life. That may be customary, but sometimes customary is not good. It's just usual and common, but not smart. And I made a commitment, and it was in my late fifties when I had those four or more impact that I was gonna do it differently, and I was coming on 70 and I thought, "Ooh, so I did my 50, now my 70." And I asked Lola, I said, "You know, I have an idea for a gift for my 70th." She said, "What is it?" I said, "I wanna spend as much time as I need in the coming year to sit down with everybody that had been important in my life. I want to go visit with them. I want to sit with them. I want to have an experience with them after I talk with them, and I want each one of them to know how important they've been in my life." Lola has been either the creator or the supporter of everything important in my life, said, "If that's the gift you want, you should take it." And that's what I did for the following 11 months of after I was 70. I visited with 44 people.
- PAPeter Attia
Mm.
- WGWalter Green
Brought me to Kenya, to Mexico, to Canada, many places in the United States. It was a remarkable moment of my life.
- PAPeter Attia
Give me an example of, of what such a meeting was like or what, you know, you-- obviously, if you're [clears throat] seeing 44 people across the globe in 11 months, we're, we're talking about only days that you're spending with each person, right?
- WGWalter Green
Oh, literally a day.
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah. So you would fly into Mexico City.
- WGWalter Green
Yeah. So most of them were domestic.
- PAPeter Attia
Uh-huh.
- WGWalter Green
That was-- and, in fact, some of them I was able to do two in one trip or three in one trip. I had a few in Florida, so I would combine them.
- PAPeter Attia
[chuckles]
- WGWalter Green
So it wasn't like I had 44 trips. Some were from Southern California, which is where I live. It didn't require traveling. So I don't, I don't wanna make this seem like this was a extensive travel whatever, but I wanna highlight the simplicity of it.
- PAPeter Attia
Hmm.
- WGWalter Green
First of all, I hesitate to typically tell this story about 44 people 'cause people and your listeners will probably say, "Oh, I don't have 44 people." You have one at least, and that's all I'm trying to inspire. So for me, the journey was my personal journey. Had nothing to do with inspiring anybody for anything. It was my personal journey. And I said, "Well, what process will I use?" Took out a legal pad and I wrote the question, "What difference did this person make in my life?" And I would put bullet points down underneath it. Sometimes it could be two pages, but typically one. I've got to go see him or her by the product of that process. I took that legal pad with me, and it was... I had four bases that I covered in every conversation. So yeah, there's some systemization to this, but each one was so different. But they followed a similar pattern
- PAPeter Attia
And what was that pattern?
- WGWalter Green
Well, uh, the first phase was just-
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah
- WGWalter Green
... how did I have the good fortune of meeting you? How did that happen? Then we talked about next base was all these shared experiences we had. Wow. Amazing. Third base was the major one. I had my pad, and I said, "This is for me to express to you how important you've been in my life, and I wanna tell you why." Because to me, the spec- specificity, never do say that word too easily [laughs] , uh, was where the richness of the conversation. It wasn't I love you. It wasn't... Although I did tell them I love them. It wasn't, uh, a general remark. It was a specific remark. So third base was the big one. The fourth one was kind of for me, [laughs] which is that I had known these people over 1,000 years, and I said, "This is my only opportunity." Incidentally, I recorded every conversation. And because it's so hard to take in acknowledgement and appreciation, at the end of this year, I mailed to each one of them a picture, 120-word letter summarizing it, and the CD which summarized our conversation, and framed them and mailed it to 44 people. But the last piece of it was that I wanted to learn something about myself. And so I said, "Listen, I would appreciate if, if you could give me one piece. I'd like to create a mosaic about who I am. Would you be good enough to share with me what would that piece have been from your perspective?" And that was my fourth base. That's the whole experience. That's the whole process.
- 50:40 – 57:32
The profound impact of acknowledging and expressing gratitude for the people who contribute to our lives
- PAPeter Attia
What was the most interesting you learned, interesting thing you learned in that year about life? Not necessarily about yourself, but just about life and the richness of it.
- WGWalter Green
Well, uh, first thing was how blessed I was. You know, relationships are interesting in the sense that I equate it like I put a flashlight in a dark room, that those qualities of the friends were always there, but I just brought them to light. And when you bring them to light, it's an extraordinary feeling. I mean, if you had one or two or three, it matters not. Um, so I would say that was the... I mean, here's a guy who never had a friend until he went to high school. Come on. So I felt such a richness from the experience. Actually, towards the end, I was in Kenya, uh, on actually another mission, um, actually building a school over there. And the founder of this nonprofit heard what I was doing, and in fact, was on the journey, and he said, "Well, would you tell the story at dinner about what you're doing?" And they all broke into applause at the end. I said, "You know, maybe this story has to be told more. Maybe it shouldn't just be a personal story." And so once again, Lois, I guess it was about really right in, right during this time, had lunch with an acquaintance, told the acquaintance about what I was doing. The acquaintance said they'd like to hear the story. Turns out she was the editorial director of Hay House. And three days later, I had a contract to write the book. And that became another platform called, it's called This Is the Moment! Um, how one man's year-long journey captured the extraordinary power of gratitude.
- PAPeter Attia
You know, it's interesting. You talked about how some people might hear that, you know, 44 people made this list, and this is a pretty selective list, right? You, you were very deliberate in saying these are not acquaintances.
- WGWalter Green
Right.
- PAPeter Attia
These are very close friends. These are people who you could have these... I mean, these are big questions. Not how did we meet, not, you know, what are the shared experiences, but the telling them with great specificity the impact they've had on your life, [clears throat] that's not a big group of people. The fact that it's 44 for you is probably not surprising to anyone who's listening to this conversation, uh, or to anybody who knows you, and it probably speaks to how deliberate you are at cultivating relationships. I think it's a cliché, but it's a cliché for a reason, that y- you know, richness in life is much more about relationships than other successes, whether it be, you know, success in victory, success in material, uh, you know, or monetary means. Um, do you find that one can realize that without some suffering? In other words, how much of a role did the pain that you experienced in the first 29 years of your life paradoxically become the greatest asset to allow the second and third 29-year periods to have this degree of richness?
- WGWalter Green
That's a wonderful question. Uh, clearly I was at an advantage because of my deprivation. But I think there's a level of consciousness, and that I have Oh, there have been thousands of people who have since acted on this message, and there have been... I remember I knew it was gonna be good because, uh, it wasn't even a-- He was an acquaintance, and he's a motorcycle, cigar-smoking, really tough dude. He said, "That's a hell of a message." [chuckles] He said, "There are some people I need to speak to." And so the wide range of people that realize we are not self-made, everybody really knows that. The question is, are we going to acknowledge those people that helped make us while they're here? It's not complicated. It's not complicated. What I find incredible and why I'm kind of really excited about this latest movement, and we can maybe get into more of that in the discussion, but I think my contemporaries and even, and even people in their forties and fifties, they've been so focused on the traditional measures of success that relationships are not, um, don't have the focus. And at the end of the day, you know, I was-- another couple chapters I read of a book called How Do You Measure Life or something like that, written by a professor at Harvard. Now, these are all these bright guys who graduate from the business school, go out and become financial hoo-has and, and in five or 10 years, they've made a fortune. They come back for a reunion, and they're miserable. He said, "There's something wrong with this picture." And he changed his focus to have them look at what successful life looks like, not how much success you may have in business. And I think there is an enormous opportunity, missed opportunity in really placing education around what's really important. And I don't know about you, but to me, there's nothing more important than my marriage. I have 60 years, over 20,000 days. My children, they're grown, twins. Uh, my good friends. What did they ever teach me about that? Where did I ever learn about what it is to be a compassionate, loving, caring husband or a father or a friend? What do you do when your friends are struggling? How are you helpful? How do you show compassion? Show me a school, and that's where I'll go.
- 57:32 – 1:04:35
The key elements for creating meaningful connections and cultivating deep, authentic friendships
- PAPeter Attia
One of the things that I want to understand a bit better, Walter, is I know a lot of people who are surrounded by people that are supposedly friends, and they have world-class experiences constantly. But deep down, they don't seem particularly enriched by them. And I don't want to sound judgmental because one can never know from the outside, but my appearance is that both these so-called friendships seem superficial and the experiences maybe seem too hedonic and not, not relationally rich. It's also clear that when you talk about these 44 people, that that's not what it was about, right? It wasn't-- I suspect that when you talked about the experiences you shared with them, it wasn't, you know... You know, when we, when we, when we, you know, when we went to Vegas that weekend and, you know, gambled all this money away and... You, you know what I mean? It wa- like or, or, you know, just got, you know, partied really hard or something like that. I suspect that some of the experiences you talked about sharing were very subtle. Um, how do you think that you naturally gravitated towards that, and why do you think that is not necessarily a natural thing for people to do?
- WGWalter Green
Yeah. Wonderful. I, uh, I think a lot has to do with our life experiences. I don't have much time to waste. Um, I really-
- PAPeter Attia
Th- this urgency from your-- literally the fear of death.
- WGWalter Green
I don't know if it's a fear of death. It's a realization, uh, somebody wasted an hour of my time this week. It was a pure waste. I really resented it. A- and they didn't do it intentionally. It just turned out to be a wasted hour. I would've rather written out a check. I can't get that hour back. So I tend to not have a lot of time. It was-- [chuckles] I have to laugh because one of the fellows-- I've been in these, uh, what we call forums. They're groups of 10 or 12 presidents. One I've been in for 37 years, one for 20 years, another one for 22 years. I've been to like 800 of these sessions. Well, they're all authentic. They're all about life. I've spent probably 4,000 hours talking about presidents' issues as deep as you could be. So that's where I spend a fair amount of time. All my mentoring, my mentoring's about real-life issues. Uh, it's not about entertainment. And friends that I hang with are typically ones where I can have meaningful conversations. So I really think it's how you normally relate in your life. I think it's getting to the point where people are more comfortable being open. I also find when people get older, they're getting a little bit more comfortable. I myself was very secretive in my twenties. I'm not secretive now. They're all lessons. So- Uh, it's kind of interesting. In the group, I would not... In these men's groups, I would not be the smartest, for sure. I would not be the first one they would call to go have a beer with. I don't drink it, but they wouldn't ask me anyway. I'm not that kind of-- That's-- You're not the bantering kind of person. But the moderator of the group said, "Walter, I don't know if you know it," but this is the person who was on the journey. He said, "Of all the members of the group, you'd either be the first or second person that everyone would come to if they had an issue."
- PAPeter Attia
Why do you think that is? Is that innate? Is that deliberate? Meaning, is that, is that a skill you are cultivating? Is it simply part of your personality? I mean, let's be clear. I think it's interesting to me that the, the, the straw that broke the camel's back in your own mental breakdown was one born of empathy. I mean, it was that you couldn't stand to take this older man's job. Um, and while I'm sure many people would be disheartened by that proposition, and even if someone just chose to say, "Well, I'm not gonna go back to work," it impacted you in a way that was so much deeper.
- WGWalter Green
Hmm.
- PAPeter Attia
I- if someone's listening to this thinking, "I would like to be a person that, at a minimum, my friends could come to when there's a problem. Not necessarily everyone would feel that way who knew me, but those who know me well. But it's not happening. You know, I can't tell you the last time someone came to me, uh, because they have a problem." What do they need to do to cultivate that skill? And let me ask you a follow-up question in a moment, uh, which is, why should one want to have that?
- WGWalter Green
Well, first, the question is, how do you develop that skill? I think it, I think it's based on authenticity and empathy and compassion, and I think we all have it. I don't know that we all use it. But I think deep relationships, you mentioned earlier that people who have these wide range of friendships, and it's-- I want to correct. These were not all good friends of mine that were on the list. I don't want to... These are all people who had significantly impacted my life. That doesn't necessarily mean that they were my good friends.
- PAPeter Attia
I see. Okay.
- WGWalter Green
Many of them were good friends.
- PAPeter Attia
So the, the, the, the primary selection criteria was these people altered the course of your life.
- WGWalter Green
Exactly.
- PAPeter Attia
And some of them might have been a professor in college who you hadn't been-
- WGWalter Green
Exactly. Well, the, the blind man in New Hampshire who taught me how to think, I might have seen him 30 times in my life.
- PAPeter Attia
Yep.
- WGWalter Green
He would not be someone who's a friend.
- PAPeter Attia
Yep. I got it.
- WGWalter Green
Okay. Um, in terms of why would someone wanna be more authentic, um, that's an individual choice. Um, I think there's a natural aptitude to show and tell, and for me, authenticity transcends show and tell. Um, I find it very rich. I find a lot of these apparent friendships were really just we were in the same organization together, and they were very friendly. You leave the organization, and you don't see them again. That's not a friend. That's just an association. And I think sometimes it gets confusing, and sometimes as you elevate yourself in the world, people will befriend you in ways that you actually think they're a friend, but they're really, in some cases, just because of an association.
- 1:04:35 – 1:24:43
The “Say It Now” movement: the inspiration behind the remarkably impactful initiative
- PAPeter Attia
So let's go back to, to Tim Russert's death, circa 2008. This has a profound effect on you, right?
- WGWalter Green
Mm-hmm.
- PAPeter Attia
You see all of these people coming to say the most amazing things to him that he never got to hear. So what, what else crystallizes for you there?
- WGWalter Green
Well, the, um, that was one of three or four that came right at me and followed a real memory of my 50th and the fact that, oh my God, I'm gonna make 70. Um, I think those compounded it. The 70th experience in which I wrote the book, I spoke about the book. People wrote me about what the message had meant to them because the book was structured in three ways. One is, how did I come up with this idea? Wh- where did it come from? It's absolutely unbelievable to me. And now I'm seeing more research come out because mental health is becoming so much more of an issue. They're now coming out with studies that are done five and 10 years ago about the power of gratitude. Makes you feel better. It's less depressed. And, uh, none of mine was based on any study. It was all experiences. So the feedback I got from the speaking on the subject matter really elevated my appreciation of the power of the message, and it has been gaining. And then really a decade after the book was published, it still had legs. I heard, uh, uh, from a girl in the Philippines who had picked the book up in a library, and she wrote me an email, and she said, "I just wanted you to know I was thinking of killing myself." First of all, I had no idea how the book was in a library in the Philippines, but she said, "I, I had been abused in my family, and I was so angry, I wanted to end it." She said, "But I saw it and I read your book and I realized there are a number of people who have actually helped me in my life, and how can I forget that at this moment?" We had one or two exchanges. A decade later, I heard from her. She's married, living in, I think Denmark or Sweden, and- There are many of these stories, but it, it elevated to me the importance of thinking about maybe there's a more powerful way to do it. Most of my life has been spent one-on-one in small groups. All my mentoring is one-on-one. All my small groups is 12 people or less. My conference business was 25 people or less typically. The book was the first time that I have influenced thousands of people. And during the pandemic, I thought, "Oh, this is gonna make this group get together end." And actually, I was having a conversation with my son. He said, "You know, you could do it by Zoom." I said, "Really?" And so three days later, we did the first of the living tributes. He insisted on using me and brought my mentees together, and that evolved into what became the Say It Now movement today. And, um, this may be my biggest legacy.
- PAPeter Attia
How does a person go about doing this?
- WGWalter Green
Well, uh, first of all, this is not a business of mine. I'm, I invest in it. There's no r- there's no royalties, there's no rewards, there's nothing. So [clears throat] this is, uh... I wanna make it really simple. This is not complicated. Uh, once again, I will tell you, of the thousands of stories that I've heard over the years, I've never heard one that the person said, "I'm sorry." I just got a card from someone this past week. He sent me, and he said, "I just want you to know, uh, you inspired this." The card was printed 70 for 70, and he proceeds to say he has written to th- 70 people on his 70th birthday. He outdid me.
- PAPeter Attia
[laughs]
- WGWalter Green
[laughs] So I dropped him a note, asked him what the experience was like. Very similar experience. "Oh, my God. It was so easy to do. It felt so good. It reconnected me with people at levels I haven't been at." It's not complicated. They were short notes to each of those people. And I say, it doesn't matter how, but it does matter now. I recently came across a book. It was an interview. It wasn't a book. An interview by Hadley Vlahos. Uh, Vlahos, I believe is, uh, uh, she is a hospice nurse.
- PAPeter Attia
Hmm.
- WGWalter Green
She just wrote a book called "In Between," and in it, they asked her the question, "If you had an ideal death, what would it be like after you see these people who have had these for months before they die?" And she said, "Well, for me, I would want people to come to me and tell me that they, uh, that I mattered before I died, right when I was dying. I'd like to hear that." She said, "I was with these people for six months before they died. Their central word was, 'I don't matter to anybody.'" Then she would go to the funerals of these people and hear the tributes that are paid to the person who's dying, who feels unloved, unappreciated, unacknowledged.
- PAPeter Attia
Hmm.
- WGWalter Green
So what I decided was, in some ways, we have to unlearn this idea that what is customary... You have to unlearn. Celebrations of life are great for some things. Memorial services are great, but they're not for paying tribute to somebody who's been important in your life. Those are not the moments for that.
- PAPeter Attia
Why do you think we do that, Walter?
- WGWalter Green
Custom. Custom.
- PAPeter Attia
But is there some level of discomfort we have? I mean, when you say it this way, it's so obvious, right? Like, there's nothing you're saying right now that anybody listening to this would go, "No, that doesn't make any sense. We should absolutely let those people in hospice die thinking that they didn't matter and wait till they die to tell a bunch of other people how important they were." You know, again, when you state it that way, it sounds ridiculous. But there must be some reason that this custom has stuck, and it's wonderful that you're going to shatter that. But as I even examine my own life and I think of these people in high school, in college, in, uh, in all stages of my life who mattered, it's very... It's, it's clear to me that most of them might not realize it now.
- WGWalter Green
Right. I was with a limousine driver, and he was asking me-- We started a con- He said, "What do you do?" [chuckles] And so I told him the story. He said, "Oh, my. God, my immediate thought goes to my basketball coach." Now, he must have been in his 40s. "That guy taught me so much about life and about playing. It wasn't about the game." And I said, "Well, is he still alive?" "Yeah." "Maybe you should connect with him." The next time he picked me up to go to the airport, he said, "I gotta tell you something. I met with my basketball coach." I said, "What was that like?" I always love this. I get psychic income out of all these stories, right?
- PAPeter Attia
Mm-hmm.
- WGWalter Green
He said, "I called him. I said, 'Coach, I, I haven't seen you in a long time. I'd like to come see you.' "Sure, come on." So he comes and he's, he says, "I'll see you on the basketball court." So [chuckles] the young fellow says, uh, "Coach, I didn't come to play basketball." "Well, what'd you come for?" I said, "I, I need to have you sit down on the bench. I wanna tell you what you mean to me." Change their lives. So the reason that I think it's a little hard is 'cause not too many people are modeling That this is the way to do it. So I thought strategically what we should really do is teach younger people about doing it. They don't have to unlearn anything. So my major thrust this past year has been to educate young people, and there are teaching materials now. I think we're in 38,500 classrooms around the world, and so 75 different countries. So it is a global movement.
- PAPeter Attia
This is what type of classrooms? High school?
- WGWalter Green
Uh, they are primarily fifth through the 12th grades, and they all have materials on practicing Say It Now.
- PAPeter Attia
Hmm.
- WGWalter Green
And so that's where it's starting because they're gonna go home, tell their parents. I got a note from Joanne in Ontario, Canada, a fellow Canadian and kindergarten teacher who had been so committed to her profession. But during the pandemic, it was so tough. And then when she went back to school with these kindergartens where it was their first experience, she introduced Say It Now to kindergartens. And she writes and she said they-- "One child chose to express what I meant to her by doing a drawing, and she told me what the drawing meant and why she appreciated me in the drawing and how she helped me learn how to sing and why that made a difference." This is a kindergarten. So my hope, I set a goal for a million expressions of gratitude by my 85th birthday, which is next month. We crossed 1.4 million.
- PAPeter Attia
Hmm.
- WGWalter Green
And we're just beginning.
- PAPeter Attia
What does finishing strong mean to you?
- WGWalter Green
Hmm. Well, you'll see the pattern. So, uh, I had a recent medical scare that I thought, "Hmm, maybe this is 53 after all," [chuckles] except it's 83 or 84. And so I asked myself the question, Peter. I think you could probably ask it right now. You've heard it for, uh, our, our, our conversation. I said to myself, "If you could ideally finish strong," now in this case it was end of life, "what would be happening? How would you know?" And I detailed key results. And for the last year, I achieved all of those results.
- PAPeter Attia
What were some of those things?
- WGWalter Green
One is we, we have two homes. Uh, and, uh, when something happened to me, I think it'd be a lot for my wife. And so I said I need to find an environment for her that would provide a lifestyle. And so last week we moved into a place that would provide that lifestyle. We still have our primary home, but this place would be a place we're already starting to transition, so she would feel comfortable. Um, I, I am very current. I talk about currency. You know, I'm, I'm very current with my relationships, really current. Um, I make sure I've circled the block with all my mentees that have been important. They all came to my TEDx talk, or most of them came to my TEDx talk, which gave me a chance once again to publicly acknowledge how they each had changed my life. Now, is that counterintuitive? Not for me, because they had. So as much as I enjoyed my TEDx talk this year, the dinner following was so significant for me. So in terms of additional things, there was one investment that w- would require some work. Uh, it's not an operating company, but just an, a little involved investment. I don't want my wife to have to think about that, so I'm just finishing liquidating that. So everything is very easy. My wife has a list of here are 15 things to do from a financial point of view. If something happens to me, this is exactly what you do. Fifteen steps up to date. My financial affairs are up to date. My friendships are up to date. Still working out, still hoping for the best, and I got some good news. Uh, uh, cancer that I had a year ago is in remission and, uh, somebody up there thinks I got some more work to do.
- PAPeter Attia
When do you think people should be thinking about this? I mean, in some ways you could argue, given, you know, that we have no idea when we're gonna die and, um, obviously being 85 versus being 45, the odds are much longer, you know. But what, um... You know, h- how should a person operationalize that? 'Cause that's a very tactical list of things. Some of those are at least, right? Like the financial planning, the consolidation, all of that stuff is, is, is... Do, do you have a sense of how many people, I'm assuming it's men typically dying before their female spouse, um, are, are, are kind of leaving their spouse, I don't know, ill-suited to deal with the chaos of their demise?
- WGWalter Green
Yeah. I've been doing this for 35 years, Peter. Um, so this one was a little g- grander. Before, I always had my estate in order and provided life insurance and homes and the things that are for their comfort. This one was really a little-- This one had a different tone to it. Um, I also wanna say that, that I think we wait too long to give it now. And I... Part of what I accelerated was, um, I've been spending the last 30 years in philanthropy. I accelerated that program. And not just for nonprofits, but for people who have been important to me but haven't been as successful. I accelerated it. Is it normal? No. Are you worried about giving people money? A little, but I'm worried more about not. Same thing. It's not customary. I understand. And one person said it's difficult. Of all the people, one person said, "I just can't do it." And I said, "Well-"
- 1:24:43 – 1:31:54
What “finishing strong” means to Walter
- PAPeter Attia
Um, what... I, I wanna understand a little bit more what you think is driving that sense of peace, because it can only be described as a sense of peace.
- WGWalter Green
Mm-hmm.
- PAPeter Attia
I, I, I, I have to say I don't personally feel peace in that way, right? If I, if I try to imagine this being the last year of my life, uh, there's no p- there, th-th-there's-- I wouldn't take a positive thought from it. I mean, I, I, I would be, I'd be very sad. And you could say, "Well, Peter, that's because you're fifty and Walter's eighty-five." Maybe, but I would bet that there are a lot of eighty-five-year-olds who also wouldn't have much peace knowing that they're at the end. And how do you reconcile the peace that you can have at the end of your life with the fact that you undoubtedly have more to do? 'Cause to me, that's the struggle.
- WGWalter Green
Mm-hmm. Oh, I love that question. First of all, I think there is a difference between being fifty and being eighty-five. Uh, I was on the island of Corsica, and I literally was on a cruise, taken off the cruise, and had to be operated on immediately in a clinic. If they didn't, I would've died. And I said in my sixties, "Just give me a little more time. I promise I'll be of service." I had already been of service, had no intention of doing anything else, haven't done any business in the last thirty years. All I've been has been a ser- so that was not a big commitment. It was a natural commitment, and I bought more time. I think if we don't turn on the flashlight to bring light on what we've been blessed with, there is no opportunity to get much fulfillment at the end for the gratitude that these blessings have provided. So in a sense, it's to your point, which is whether y- and it relates to whether you're saving money for your kid's college. If you wait till they're a junior in high school, it's tough.
- PAPeter Attia
Hmm.
- WGWalter Green
Not much time. If you wanna save for retirement, if you wait until your sixties, it's really tough. If you wanna start being grateful and you wanna wait till your eighties, it's really tough. But if you can build that, which I hope I'm building in millions of young people, this awareness and expression of gratitude. It's not just awareness, it's expression of gratitude because they will be enriched by expressing it and the person receiving it will be. So I actually think in my dream and my hope is when I say the word pay it forward, most people know what I'm talking about. They know the concept of pay it forward means if somebody does something nice for you, you in turn will do something nice for three people, not necessarily have to do something for the person who was nice to you. I want say it now to become as ubiquitous, as common as that, and someone says, "You know, I need to do a say it now for Gene. I need to do a say it now for Peter." I believe that will elevate our own sense of value. I wanna make the other point. It may be helpful to you and others. I always wanna get done with this project before I go. But I came to two conclusions during this last finishing strong exercise. One was that I never wanted to leave my wife a widow. We've been married sixty years, never wanted her... I work out every day, almost every day, most every day, 'cause I wanted to outlive my wife. I came to the realization that is not for me to decide. That's gonna just be what it is. You can do the best, but if she's a widow, just take care of her as you would want her taken care of and relax. Have peace. Have peace. So the other thing was I gotta finish the project. And I said, "Walter, you've been doing projects for the last thirty years, and you're not gonna stop doing projects. So you, by definition, will die with an unfinished sy- symphony. That is the nature of your life, and don't stop just so you could finish."
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah, I, I think back to one of the other friends that Ric introduced us to at the event, um, which was the gentleman who was a little over a hundred years old.
- WGWalter Green
Right.
- PAPeter Attia
And [chuckles] who, who's still s- who's still working on deals. He's still talking to Ric about business ideas and just he's d- it's like he, it's like he's fifty years old.
- WGWalter Green
Yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
Um, and I really think, you know, it's, it's impossible to, to prove these things scientifically because you can't do randomized controlled experiments. So we'll never truly know the causative nature of having a purpose in longevity.
- WGWalter Green
Mm-hmm.
- PAPeter Attia
Right? But it's very hard for me to believe that there isn't causality there, meaning that the people who continue to have a purpose in life... And again, your purpose for the past thirty years hasn't been to make a dime. It's been in this Say It Now movement. Uh, for some people, their purpose in life is public service through politics. For some people, it is indeed working in the private sector. Uh, the p- the point is, I think the people who continue to have some sense of purpose that is far beyond theirse- themselves and their own joy and pleasure, um, undoubtedly seem to live longer
- WGWalter Green
Yeah. I, I wouldn't be surprised if people... You know, I was thinking today of the word pastime.
- PAPeter Attia
[chuckles]
- WGWalter Green
Well, pastime, you know. Well, it helps pass time. And I, it, it takes my breath away when somebody says that.
- PAPeter Attia
Hmm.
- WGWalter Green
Pass time. Wow. For me, it's purpose time. You give me time, it's purpose time. Um, and, and I, I can't imagine not living that way, but I
- 1:31:54 – 1:36:15
Finding peace at the end of life through expressing gratitude and finding purpose in serving others
- WGWalter Green
don't suggest that everybody will live that way. I can only suggest that for me, it's given me an extraordinary life, and it didn't start when I was 80. It didn't start when I was 70. It started when I was in my 20s.
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah. And I, and I, and I don't wanna suggest that, that the purpose of a person's life needs to be as grand as your ambition or, you know, starting a new business. Um, it can be simply taking care of another person.
- WGWalter Green
Mm-hmm.
- PAPeter Attia
I'm constantly struck. You know, one of the things I do with all of our patients is take a detailed family history before we start. I can't tell you the number of times I go through the family history and we're talking about their grandparents, and they'll say, you know, one of them died from some disease, and the other one died very shortly thereafter despite being completely healthy. They just lost interest in life. And they would-- they describe it to me as they died of a broken heart.
- WGWalter Green
Mm-hmm.
- PAPeter Attia
Or they just stopped thriving. Um, and I, I think that's an extension of this as well. I think having-
- WGWalter Green
Yeah
- PAPeter Attia
... having that other person there is, is part of purpose.
- WGWalter Green
Yeah. So, uh, uh, uh, Peter, you really, n-not only are you making these keen and important observations, I just wanna take a moment to say, you know, you work really hard at this, and you need to know just on behalf of those people who have read your book. Unfortunately, I had to choose just one chapter 'cause I'm only a one chapter guy. Of course, I'd choose the one on emotional health that I thought was, to me, it was the door to you. It was the one that proved to me you're really authentic and the person that I wanted to connect with. And I think your conversations that you're having carry that chapter 17 with you in all that you do, and that you are enriching lives of millions of people through your writings and through your podcasts and through your good work. And, um, I personally just wanted to acknowledge you for that. And I wanted to just piggyback the thing. Um, you know, after 60 years of marriage, best decision I ever made, and nobody ever helped us being a good husband. Nobody ever helped us. And for sure we didn't have great models. My father died, as I've described, so I didn't have a good model. So where do you learn it from? The most important decision in our life, we have no training for, as I mentioned earlier, nor with kids. But one of the things that is amazing to me, and I'm getting very respectful of why so many marriages don't last, and that is there are so many stages. I described three stages of my life. But in marriage, you've got, uh, dating, you've got, uh, marriage with no kids, then you got the kids, and then the kids leave the house, and then you retire, and then the last chapter is one of them slows down a little bit. So I w- I'm married to an energizer bunny who's slowing down a little. And during the pandemic, I got a chance to love her in a way that I never did before. And that's another thing you never know. You always know you love the person you married. The question is, can you always love the person equally or more when they're not quite the same person you married? And I wanna suggest that Lola's still super active, but she's not as active as she used to be. So, um, this is to your point, is I love caring for her when she needs it. I love it. And I do think that story that you just mentioned is to the extent to which we are so self-focused. I don't know if you can die from it, but you won't live from it. You won't live a long life from it. And I think it's the focus on others that provides me with my energy. I said to myself during this recent challenge, "Don't take anything away from me that'll prevent me from helping others. I refuse that treatment. I'll take as long as I have, as long as I could be helpful to others."
- 1:36:15 – 1:39:38
Resources to learn about “Say It Now”
- PAPeter Attia
So Walter, p- folks are-- Well, first I wanna thank you, by the way, for what you said a moment earlier. Uh, that means a lot to me. Um, um, so thank you.
- WGWalter Green
Well deserved.
- PAPeter Attia
If someone's listening to this conversation and hearing about this idea of saying it now for the first time and it resonates with them, where do you recommend they start?
- WGWalter Green
Well, it's gonna sound self-promotional, uh, but I have nothing to promote, [chuckles] so there's no business here. I would go to justsayitnow.org.
- PAPeter Attia
Mm-hmm.
- WGWalter Green
And it'll give you the concept. You'll also have my TED Talk on it. You'll also have-- I have a theme song for, for Say It Now, so there's a song. Uh, in the coming months, there'll be a book. But for a person who says, "You know, that makes sense, but I, I don't know how to do that," uh, there are tools right on that website [chuckles] that could help. And I-- and whether it's a note A phone call. It is very uncomplicated and I've never seen anybody... You know, I, I, I come back to the story of the fellow who I had, a few years ago, had dinner with and he, he said to me, "Well, what do you do?" The same kind of coy, "Well, what are you doing?" I said, "It doesn't really matter. You can call me, you can do all these things and so the website will help you with that." He called me about a month later and he said, "I, I, I wanna come tell you what happened." I said, "I love these stories. I always encourage people, tell me about them 'cause that is my psychic income in this transaction."
- PAPeter Attia
[laughs]
- WGWalter Green
And so he said, "Walter, I want you to know I wrote 17 letters." I said, "Well, that's great." And he said, "One I wrote to my sister that I haven't spoken to in 10 years. I realized she was a great sister. What she did that ended the relationship always bothered me, but when I looked at our life, I realized she'd made a real difference and it rekindled our relationship."
- PAPeter Attia
Hmm.
- WGWalter Green
It's easy to do. The outcomes are sometimes very surprising and always rewarding.
- PAPeter Attia
Walter, thank you very much for coming all the way over here. Um, I wanted to do this in person and I know it's been hard to, for us to get together and we could've done this a year ago, uh, remotely. But, but I, I, I really believed and I, and I believe now that it, it's, it's, this is a discussion I wanted to have with you sitting a few feet away from me. So thanks for, for trusting me to, uh, take, take time, which is precious, and I know it's taken you away from something else and someone else. But, um, I think sharing this story with, with a lot of people here through this podcast is, um, is a great way to continue your legacy. So thank you.
- WGWalter Green
Well, I, I appreciate the opportunity. You know, I, when I'm committed to something, I do it when it's inconvenient. When I'm interested in something, I only do it when it's convenient. And I have no interests, I only have commitments, and I was committed to having this moment happen with you. So thank you for the opportunity. [outro music]
Episode duration: 1:39:38
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Transcript of episode 5yQ-p-mypFk
