307 ‒ Exercise for aging people: where to begin, and how to minimize risk while maximizing potential

1. 0:00 – 0:39

   Intro

   1. PADr. Peter Attia0:00

      I don't think you can overstate the importance of strength training. I, I just don't think there's anybody out there who shouldn't be lifting weights. Um, I, I can't, I can't think of a case. I mean, unless you're decidedly saying, "I don't wanna live the, the longest, healthiest life I can." If that, if that's the case, then by all means, don't lift weights. But, but if you're in the camp that says, "I wanna maximize how well I can live and maybe even how long I can live, what should I do?" Um, then you, you have to be lifting weights regardless of age, regardless of sex, regardless of injury, you know, you have to work around all of those things. [upbeat music] Hey, everyone, welcome to "The Drive" podcast. I'm your host, Peter Attia.

2. 0:39 – 4:02

   Key points about starting exercise as an older adult

   1. SPSpeaker0:41

      Peter, welcome to a special episode. How you doing?

   2. PADr. Peter Attia0:44

      Very well, thank you.

   3. SPSpeaker0:45

      So today's episode is special in that it's kind of shot like an AMA, but it's gonna be available to everyone. And what we're gonna cover is one of the most common questions that we see come through day in, day out to the website, is whether people who are, quote unquote, "older," let's say just for general purposes for this conversation, 50 plus, who realize the importance of exercise but are wondering if it's too late for them to start. And this could be whether they've never trained or worry about injury, they don't know what to do or how to do it, or they just think, "You know what? It's too late for them to really make a difference." And so we wanted to create an episode for that group, 50 plus, who have not been exercising but wanna start. And although much of what we'll talk about applies to anyone in that a- age category, it also can apply to anyone of any age who is deconditioned and looking to start slow. Um, with that said too, anyone who's younger most likely has parents who might be in this position, and this could be a good episode to send to them to encourage them to start. And so how we're gonna structure it is a little less technical than some of our AMAs and much more conversational as to how you would speak to these people if they were your patients and came to you and were asking you these questions. In the show notes, we'll have the studies that you talk about. We'll link to them. We'll link to other content that goes much deeper. But this will be a little bit more on that conversational side. So with all that said, anything you wanna add as someone who is now in the, quote unquote, "older category" as well?

   4. PADr. Peter Attia2:28

      Yeah. My, my, my wife likes to refer to me as an older gentleman now. Um, so that's right. I'm in, I'm in the over 50 category. Not just 50, but over 50. Um, so couple things. One, as we thought about putting this together, the goal initially was to have no figures, no studies, you know, just really put all of that in the, in the show notes, but let us talk. And, um, I've sort of begged to have a few figures because I do think that there are times when a picture just says a lot. So for folks who are listening to us, there's gonna be a few times when I'm gonna reference some figures from studies that I think really do a lot. Um, uh, I guess a, a couple things to, to, to state is that, um, y- y- you know, and we'll, we'll talk about this in detail. Um, but y- you know, I think we talk about 50 being a turning point. I think another really big turning point is 65 plus. Um, and, and again, we'll get to some of these things, but we really start to notice, um, reduction in strength at about that age. Um, we start to see vestibular changes that occur around that age, and that probably contributes significantly to something we will talk about, which is the risk of falling. Um, so while I think everything we're gonna talk about is gonna be relevant to anybody who's, uh, over 50 and untrained, I, I will probably call out specifically areas where when we get into that 60 to 65-year-old camp, we wanna be even more, you know, mindful of things.

   5. SPSpeaker4:01

      And

3. 4:02 – 8:59

   Why it’s never too late to begin exercising and incorporating the four pillars of exercise

   1. SPSpeaker4:02

      so I think to start, I mean, you've spoken at length about the importance of exercise for longevity, so I don't think we need to start there. But let's say someone heard that message, is in that 50 plus, 65 plus category, hasn't been exercising, and they come to you and say, "Is it too late for me to start doing this? Is it too late for me to worry about this and start making changes?" I think it'd be helpful for people f- first to hear how would you even respond to that?

   2. PADr. Peter Attia4:28

      Y- you know, I f- I've had the same response largely for many years now, so I, I realize that some people will have already heard me say this, whether it's on another podcast. But truthfully, I haven't come up with a better analogy yet, and it's really the analogy of saving for retirement. So, um, if you could be talking to somebody who's in high school or college and, and you were talking to them through the lens of, you know, being a financial advisor, their, their fiduciary, what would you say? Well, you would say, "Listen, there's this really magical thing called compounding that Einstein basically said was the eighth wonder of the world, and you wanna use it to maximum advantage. And to do that, you should start saving immediately." Right? If you can start saving, you know, before you even, you know, or when you get your first job, you should be saving. Um, and if not, certainly by the time you get out of college, um, you should be saving. And if you do that, you don't really have to be that brilliant about it, right? You just, you know, if you put all of your savings into an index fund at the age of 22, the probability that you are not going to be set when you retire is so low. Okay, so that's great. But what happens if you're talking to somebody who's 45 and due to life circumstances, like they just haven't been able to save. They haven't, they haven't made enough money to even have some disposable saving income, or they've had, you know, they've saved and lost or invested badly or something like that. Would you say, "Well, you know, too bad"? No, of course you wouldn't. So I, I guess the point here is it is never too late to start saving for retirement. But you must understand something, which is the longer you wait to start, the more you're likely going to have to save, the greater return you're going to need And therefore, probably the greater risk you're going to take. So it's never too late to start saving, and it's never too late to start exercising. But I, I want the message to be, "Don't wait," because of some reason and say, "Well, you know, I'm gonna wait till I'm older because..." I mean, so, so anyway, I-- to me, that's the best way to think about this.

   3. SPSpeaker6:40

      And I think it will be helpful for this conversation because we'll touch on these various aspects as it relates to exercise in this age population. But can you just remind people of your four pillars and kind of how you think about each of those pillars individually as someone is aging?

   4. PADr. Peter Attia6:58

      Y- yeah, and sometimes I think of it as three or four, but I think at last I, I think I write about it as four, so I'll stick with that. But it, it's basically stability, strength, uh, aerobic efficiency, and peak aerobic output. Um, and you could argue, well, those are just kind of a continuum. And so I would say, sure. The-- but let's not get lost in the semantics. Um, the, those things, if you define them the way I do, kind of constitute everything. Again, stability is kind of a broad term, but embedded within stability is, you know, everything that enables you to dissipate force safely, um, everything that enables you to have balance and flexibility, because believe it or not, those come from stability, right? You, if you have balance, by definition you have stability. Uh, you can't have balance without stability. You can't actually have flexibility without stability. Um, so y- you know, w- we, we think of training as having a purpose, and of course, different types of training, uh, factor into these different activities. So there are some types of training that really kind of myopically hit one of these things. So if you're, you know, if you're riding a bike like I do for your zone two training, well, first of all, riding a bike is, uh, a very one-dimensional activity. There are basically no degrees of freedom outside of you riding, you know, pedaling the crank. Um, and if you do it at, you know, a fixed power output that meets the criteria for zone two, then you're very narrowly targeting that. You're doing very little for any of the other systems. And then conversely, there are other types of training, like rucking with a heavy weight on hills, where actually you're targeting all four of those elements, right? That requires tremendous stability, moments of strength, large segments of aerobic base or aerobic efficiency, and moments of peak aerobic, uh, output and even anaerobic output. So that's just something to, to kind of, you know, keep in mind.

4. 8:59 – 14:44

   The gradual, then sharp, decline in muscle mass and activity level that occur with age

   1. SPSpeaker8:59

      And so Peter, you mentioned at the outset there's a few graphs that you think will be important. I think it's a-- be a good spot for us to pull them up, which is one looking at the decline of muscle as we age, so people can kind of visually see what that looks like, and then one looking at VO2 max across different age brackets. And so I'll share my screen here and pull them up, but I think it'll be helpful for people if you kind of talk through them and how you look at it through the lens of this conversation.

   2. PADr. Peter Attia9:26

      Yeah. So this is a figure that I fought like crazy to include in Outlive, and I got overruled and just kicked in the groin. No way this figure was going in the book. So it really makes me happy to be able to show this figure here. Um, the figure for those who are not watching, um, shows, uh, it's basically four graphs and, uh, two of them are for men, two of them are for women. Uh, two of them demonstrate fat-free mass, which is a great proxy for muscle mass, and two of them show spontaneous, uh, or deliberate physical activity. Um, so in that sense, you can think of it as a two by two male by female, uh, versus, uh, activity and fat-free mass. And then each of these has kind of an x-axis that shows age. Okay, so what one notices when they look at this is that, um, fat-free mass, um, you know, rises up, so i.e. lean mass kind of rises pretty significantly from birth till about the age of twenty-five, and then it slowly starts to go down. By the way, this is true for males and females. Males are on the right, females are on the left. So you'll notice that from age twenty-five to seventy-five, there is indeed a gradual reduction of lean mass. But then something happens at the age of seventy-five, which is the fall off in lean mass becomes much more significant. It's actually even more noticeable in men, presumably because they're starting from a higher baseline. But this is clearly a curve that has three segments, right? Birth to twenty-five, where you're gaining, gaining, gaining. Twenty-five to seventy-five, where you're slowly losing. Uh, and by the way, we know the numbers, right? We know that that's actually happening at eight to ten percent per year. And then seventy-five and on, where you fall off a cliff. So now let's look at the lower figures. The lower figures show physical activity level. And you can see that a very similar trend occurs. It tends to peak a little bit earlier, so it's probably peaking in late teens and early twenties. And interestingly, it doesn't have a huge fall off between the, uh, ages of roughly twenty and seventy-five. It actually stays relatively constant. If anything, it probably dips a touch in middle age. That might have to do when we're at sort of peak work and therefore not as, not as busy, um, physically. Uh, but again, you notice what happens at the age of seventy-five, which is physical activity level drops like a stone. And of course, this begs the age-old question, which is, which is the chicken and which is the egg? Because again, there is an unmistakable relationship here between physical activity and muscle mass and age, um, and something very noticeable happens at the age of 75. Um, of course, data like these cannot give us causality. In other words, can't tell us which one's causing the other. But I think anybody who's observed people at this age would come to the conclusion that these are-- that there is bidirectional causality here. In other words, as we lose muscle mass, we become less active, and as we become less active, we lose muscle mass. And there's one point that I will make in addition to this, which actually came from a very recent interview I did with Luke Van Loon. Um, and so that's an episode that you can go back and listen to in great detail if you haven't already. But Luke made a very interesting point, so interesting that I was scribbling it down, um, as, as he said it, which was that data like these, which are, you know, we're replete with these sorts of data that show population-based reductions in activity of aging individuals always make it look like it's kind of a gradual continuous curve. Even if it happens precipitously, it's still a continuous curve. And what Luke pointed out is, well, actually, that's true at the population level. It's not true at the individual level. At the individual level, it is a series of big discrete drops. And so when you smooth out thousands of people with big discrete drops, it looks like a smooth drop. And what it really comes down to is once you reach a certain age, even minor setbacks become permanent setbacks. And that's the thing we, you know, we're gonna talk about, but we have to be able to avoid that situation. So I'll give you one example. People have long heard me talk about the idea that, um, once you reach a certain age, like sixty-five, and if you fall and break your hip or femur, uh, the probability of death is really high. I mean, it's, you know, on the order of fifteen to thirty percent. What often gets forgotten there, even though I try to always mention it, is of the survivors, meaning the people who don't go on to die within 12 months, um, 50% of those people never reach the same level of function again. So that's an example of why these curves are probably not smooth, but in fact, um, have these discrete step offs.

5. 14:44 – 17:43

   The decline of VO2 max that occurs with age

   1. SPSpeaker14:44

      And now do you want to kind of talk in the same way about how you talked with the muscle and activity decline by looking at VO2 max?

   2. PADr. Peter Attia14:52

      Y- yes. So again, apologies for those not watching, but rather listening. Again, please take a look at the show notes. Um, but here you can see, um, a table that shows exactly what is happening to VO2 max, um, as we age. Now, the purpose of this table, of course, is to show you something else. The purpose of this table is to show you, uh, basically the quartiles of VO2 max by age. So the way this table is broken up is that low, below average, above average, and then high and elite combined represent the four quartiles of VO2 max. Um, the, the difference is that elite peels off the top two point three percent for each respective age and sex. And so we could talk about what that looks like, but I think a more important point, and the purpose of, I think, showing it here, is to give you a sense of how every one of these categories falls. In fact, what I think is most illustrative is to just look at the elite category. So again, these are the top two point three percent of the population. So for example, if you look at a woman in her late teens, the top two point three percent would have a VO2 max greater than fifty-three milliliters, uh, of oxygen per kilogram per minute. And you can see that that will fall such that by the time a woman is eighty, to be in the top three percent, uh, pardon me, the top two point three percent, she would have to be greater than thirty milliliters per kilogram per minute. But what's interesting is thirty places her in the bottom quartile for the late teens. It would place her at about the twenty-fifth percentile for someone in her twenties. So the implication here is that regardless of how fit you are, you can still expect to see a precipitous drop here. And as I've talked about many times, and certainly my patients are probably very sick of hearing this, the reason we want to see people, um, if they want to live a completely unencumbered life into the final decade of their life, and that's a big, you know, if, not everybody necessarily has that type of an aspiration. But if your aspiration is indeed to basically be able to do what you want, um, you know, without limitation, climb a flight of stairs, carry a luggage up a broken escalator, go for a hike, um, you pretty much need to be two decades younger at the elite level if you're thinking you're gonna live to be about ninety. Um, so anyway, this hopefully provides some illustration of why that's the case.

6. 17:43 – 25:16

   Starting a training program: exercise variability, movement quality, realistic goals, and more

   1. SPSpeaker17:43

      Yeah, Peter, and I think that's really helpful for people to kind of see and hear, and it's almost like the, the why, right? So the why you should care about this and why no matter what age you are, no matter how quote unquote "old" you are, you really do want to continue to think about this. And so now we'll get into a lot of what people are probably really curious on is the how. So you've convinced me I need to care about this and I should do it, but how? And so I think the first question that would be helpful here is, you know, what are the most important aspects of training if you're starting or even returning to exercise in later life? So this could be people who have never exercised, or this could be people who exercise all the way until they were 40, family life got busy, they took ten, fifteen, 20 years off, and now they want to get back into it.

   2. PADr. Peter Attia18:30

      I mean, I think there's a lot that one could say here, but I think you would want to start from the principles of exercise variability and movement quality will always trump volume load and intensity. So, um, I would say that, I mean, I think most people listening would agree that that's an obvious statement to make for someone who's new to the game. But this is an example of something where I would say that's even true for someone like me. I mean, I have a very high training age. That's the term that we use when we're assessing patients to understand how much volume they've done and over what period of time, um, right? So basically, with the exception of one very bad injury, zero interruption in very high volume of training since the age of 13. And yet, as I'm now in my 50s, I realize I need to be much more attentive to these principles of exercise variability and movement quality. And the, the reason is quite simply, I'm much more prone to injury today than I was before. And so, um, you, you know, I have to think of ways to challenge myself that are not just load dependent. Um, and that doesn't mean that I don't still push load in complex movements like a deadlift I do, but I'm clearly not going to do nearly as much, uh, load or volume in those regards. And I am going to want to challenge myself, and by saying this of myself, that my-- what I'm really saying is everybody should be thinking about this, especially at this age, in terms of, um, you know, circuit training exercises where you're doing more than one thing at a time. So an example of this might be that, um, you know, if, if someone were just starting out, I would want to see them doing more bodyweight exercises that are slightly more complex movements. So for example, a step back lunge, um, is, is an important thing for them to be doing, even if it's just bodyweight versus just working on a leg press with heavy weight. So again, there's a time and a place for using machines, and I think we'll talk about why I think machines are a very good thing for someone starting out because they control the range of motion. Um, but we-- I think we must be able to, to mix that in with more complex movements that are variable in more than one plane. And for those movements, we obviously want to de-load them so that we just begin to do the neuromuscular training.

   3. SPSpeaker21:03

      And with that, let's say a potential patient over 50 coming to you and saying, you know, "I want to start exercising," how are you going to start to think about the structure of the programming that you give them? Because again, you mentioned like the four pillars and there's different areas you could start. So how do you think about that person just taking that first step to exercise?

   4. PADr. Peter Attia21:26

      You know, it always starts with a question that is obvious, but it sometimes is overlooked. And, and, and I have to be honest with you, this is something that even I think I overlooked a lot years ago. And that is you have to come up with something that is realistic for a person because the most important goal when you're returning someone to exercise or when you're starting someone from scratch is you want them to be able to look back in three months and view this as a positive experience. Nothing else matters if that is not true. So, you know, if in three months you've improved them by every objectable, uh, objective metric and they hated it or they're injured, well, I, it, I, I just don't know how to, uh, view that as a success. So people are going to be very different in terms of what their appetite for beginning is. But because we're focusing this discussion on people who are not like me, right? They aren't lifelong exercisers, um, and therefore by definition, they're either starting from scratch or maybe coming back to it after a long hiatus, you have to assume that their appetite for training is not going to be seven days a week, two hours a day. And therefore, what I really want to focus on is the, you know, the habit of doing something active daily. And, and not-- that doesn't mean training every day, but it means at least walking or doing something active. Um, so again, you're going to evaluate them based on their fitness level, their, their level of conditioning. And again, at the most extreme level, if it's a person who's never done anything and is completely deconditioned, it's really going to be about walking and that's about it. Um, and it could be as little as 5,000 steps per day every day, uh, on relatively flat ground. Uh, and of course, there's so many ways to progress this. If a person is a little bit more conditioned, I do like to put weight on them out of the gate, right? I'd like to, I'd like to have them do some rucking. Um, and again, it doesn't-- we're not talking about putting 60 pounds on their back. It could be 20 pounds on their back, um, but getting them moving under a little bit of load. Uh, again, there's lots of other things to consider here. Um, so again, if a person is open to starting with some bodyweight exercises, that's a very, uh, helpful way to begin doing things. Doesn't have to be complicated, right? It could be, you know, box squats, uh, wall sits. Isometric things are much safer, uh, for individuals who haven't, uh, done conditioning in the past than isotonic movement, uh, based, um, you know, meaning, um, strength movements where the muscle is changing length. Um, you know, we-- I don't know if you want to talk about more now versus later, but, but again, I have strong thoughts on how to begin cardio training. So we t- we've spent a lot of time talking about the importance of VO2 max. When we're working with a patient who hasn't done training, we do not do VO2 max workouts. We-- I do not believe in starting people with interval training without building an aerobic base. And the aerobic base, of course, that zone 2, you want to start building that in a manner that's kind of consistent with where they're coming from. So that might just be, again, walking. That could be incline walking. That could be riding a bike. And then even within riding a bike, how do you do that? Well, if a person doesn't have the, the, the, um, lower back flexibility and strength, it might even be on a recumbent bike as opposed to just a regular stationary bike. So all of these things are considerations, but again, if you forget everything else, remember the following. You wanna make sure that in three months they feel better, they notice that they are fitter, and their appetite to exercise has grown. That's the most important thing if you're viewing this both as a participant or as a trainer.

7. 25:16 – 31:33

   Improving aerobic capacity: the malleability of the system, the importance of consistency, and setting long-term fitness goals

   1. SPSpeaker25:16

      Yeah, Peter, and let's, let's continue down that aerobic path that you kind of mentioned there. And so I think the first thing people are curious about is like what do we know about the ability to improve aerobic capacity? Is that something that can be improved in someone who is older and untrained?

   2. PADr. Peter Attia25:34

      Y- yeah, and that's to me the most amazing part of this is how malleable that system is. Um, in fact, I think you could make the case that the physical system, so aerobic capacity, strength, is even more malleable than our cognitive systems, and we know that our cognitive systems are quite malleable. Um, again, I didn't wanna load this with too many stats and, and studies, but, but I think this one is worth mentioning, and obviously we can in the show notes give you all the granular detail. But, um, the one study that really jumped out to our team here was looking at percent improvement in healthy older people and healthy younger people. So there was a study that did, um, a six-week aerobic exercise, they used cycling, um, training program to assess changes in, um, you know, VO2 max, oxygen consumption of course, uh, workload and endurance. Now, in the older group, these people averaged 80 years of age. In the younger group, the people averaged 24 years of age. So, you know, you couldn't, you know, you couldn't be further apart. And yet in both groups, there was about a 13% improvement in VO2 max, a 34% improvement in maximal workload, so that's basically how many watts could you hit, and then a 2.4-fold improvement in endurance capacity. I found this staggering, and I would not have predicted this, um, prior to seeing this study. Now, of course, I want people to understand that the absolute levels of all of these things were significantly higher in the 24-year-olds. That's a given, right? They have a higher, you know, they, they put out more watts, they have a higher VO2 max, et cetera. What we're talking about here is the malleability of the system. What we're talking about here is how much could individuals improve in six weeks, and the answer is they both inc- improved dramatically. Um, and I should point out something else. This particular study followed the six-week training, uh, uh, cycle that I just described with an eight-week deconditioning period. Um, and what's worth pointing out here is that the older group declined much faster than the younger group. So both groups were able to see significant gains, but the older you were, the quicker you lost those gains with inactivity.

   3. SPSpeaker28:14

      Yeah, and so that speaks to what you mentioned earlier, which is the consistency, right? So if someone starts and they do something for three months and they don't enjoy it, and so they drop off again, it's not like they're just gonna stay at that level. That level is gonna drop back down, and so being consistent is almost more important than how high you start.

   4. PADr. Peter Attia28:34

      That's right. Yeah, again, it just, it really comes down to this, this, th- you, you can't overstate this analogy of compounding. Um, and if, if anybody really just wants to understand how compounding works, just pull open Excel and, you know, build a very simple formula that shows what happens if something compounds at 2% per, you know, month, uh, or 1% per month or something like that. I mean, it, it, it, it becomes so nonlinear, our brains can't comprehend that. Um, and of course, I'm not suggesting that the gains in exercise will compound at that intensity, um, but, but the idea of like how much fitter you can be after years of doing something. This is another point I wanna make, which is, you know, if you look at a lot of the literature in VO2 max training, um, you know, it suggests that, yeah, it's, you're ca- people are capable of improving their VO2 max by 13%, like that study I just quoted. And so a lot of people hear that and they look at the table that I showed earlier and they say, "Well, I just had my VO2 max tested and I was at the 50th percentile. There's no way I'm gonna get to the top 2% of someone two decades younger. That would require literally increasing my VO2 max by 80%." And this study showed that it could only happen 13%. To which I say, yeah, that study was six weeks long, you know? When we give our patients these audacious goals, we, we talk about these as two- and three-year goals. Um, so it's very important to understand that whatever we're talking about here, we're talking about over a very long period of time.

   5. SPSpeaker30:11

      Well, and I was gonna say too with that long game on VO2 max, it's, as we saw earlier, that elite category also drops. So if you're 40, it's not like your elite category is the same when you're 70. So if you are making that progress and you are increasing, just as you age, the categories are also gonna decrease, so you're just naturally gonna move up as long as you're maintaining. So it's an interesting way to think about it.

   6. PADr. Peter Attia30:37

      Yeah, I have, I have all of these crazy goals, as you know, and one of them is like what is the latest age I can... like what's the oldest I can be such that my VO2 max in milliliters per kilogram per minute exceeds my age? Right? Like clearly at some point that will cease to be true, right? There's no 80-year-old whose VO2 max is 80. Um, so the question is like, where does that happen? And I think that's a really great heuristic for the health of a person is does that, does that happen when you're 30? You hope not, right? If a 30-year-old's VO2 max falls below 30, there's a huge problem. Uh, does it happen when you're 40? That's probably where it happens for most people. Can you push that to 50? Can you push that to 60? So again, that's the, the only way to start to play that game is to basically get in shape and stay in shape.

8. 31:33 – 38:17

   Starting cardio training: base building, starting with low volume, and zone 2 training

   1. SPSpeaker31:33

      So on that, let's look at cardio training first and say, you know, how would you put someone on a program to help on the cardio side?

   2. PADr. Peter Attia31:46

      Once we've established that a person, you know, has the basics, you know, they're, they're not immediately injured, that, you know, they've got the ability to start doing some cardio training, um, I like to really start with base building, right? I, I really... You know, even, even for someone like me who trains a lot, remember 80% of my training volume is at zone 2. Uh, only, only 20% of my training volume is, is, is in that VO2 max range. Um, and, and again, I, I've said this before, but I- it's always worth reiterating, understand that I am not training for anything other than the, the sport of life. If I were still training to be an athlete, if I were still training to be a cyclist, I would have to do something very different than what I'm stating. What I, what I'm stating is far less intensive than someone who's, you know, trying to be a master's level athlete in, you know, pick your endurance sport. Um, so a- again, now we're talking about a person who's new to this, what are we gonna do? I would be really happy if I could get them to start two days a week, 30 minutes a time. Now, if I took a person who was rel- relatively fit and we did two times a week at 30 minutes per session, they're not going to improve enough, right? They're, they're gonna experience no improvement. If I reduced my training volume to that level, I would probably go backwards. But you have to remember, when you're starting with a person who's very deconditioned, they will actually see a training benefit at such low volume. So, you know, not gonna throw them in three-hour, four-hour-a-week training. Um, we're gonna start them much lower. Now the question I get asked all the time is, "How do you help that individual calculate where their zone 2 is?" And this is worth spending some time on. Again, for folks who want a bit of a primer, when we talk about zone 2, we are not talking about the same zone 2 that shows up on your Polar heart rate or your Apple Watch or whatever other device you're talking about. We're talking about, um, a very specific mitochondrial level of zone 2, and it's, it's, it's referring to an, um, the highest level of work that you can do while keeping lactate at effectively an indefinite steady state, which for most people tends to be below two millimole. So, um, once you're exercising and lactate gets above two, you're probably not going to be able to sustain that for, you know, a couple of hours, which is effectively what we're talking about here. Um, because metabolically you are going to, um, uh, move to an area where you're generating too much hydrogen along with too much lactate and the muscles are gonna be compromised. So, um, if, if you really want the gold standard for measuring zone 2, you gotta be kinda checking lactate levels, and I don't really advocate that for people, especially if they're starting out. You know, I do it, but I'm probably an outlier here because I enjoy that level of precision. So what I do recommend is two ways to be thinking about this. The first is on the rate of perceived exertion, which I've talked about at length in the past, and that is the talk test. Um, so you know, and I've even posted a video I think somewhere that we can probably link to in the show notes showing people what I look like when I'm in zone 2 and what my, you know, difficulty in, in speaking is. So we'll, we'll link to that so people understand. But because I know that people really like, you know, a little more guidance than that, I think using Phil Maffetone's, um, MAP formula, maximum aerobic performance I think is what MAP stands for. Um, but it's 180 minus your age is a target heart rate, and then if you're really new to the thing, which again is the audience we're now talking about, you might even subtract 10 from that, right? So a 60-year-old is gonna potentially be as low as 110 beats per minute at a target, and as they get fitter, that's probably gonna go a little bit higher. Now I wanna point out that you don't wanna be too wed to this as you get more and more involved in your training, um, because the fitter you get, I think the more variability you'll experience based on recovery. So my Maffetone formula would have my heart rate be, uh, 129, okay? Well, I can tell you 129 is never in zone 2 for me except on the worst day. You know, maybe once every two months I might have a zone 2 w- based on lactate where my actual heart rate ends up being 129. It's almost always gonna be in the high 130s and sometimes in the low 140s. So as you get more conditioned, the formula may be less and less valuable and you will rely more and more on RPE, or if you really wanna, you know, take it to the next level, you might even start using lactate. Final point I say on this, lactate, even if a person is deconditioned, we will, we will not use lactate on them because an individual that's coming in who's metabolically unhealthy tends to have very high resting lactates. In fact, there were people walking around with a lactate of two millimole at rest. Clearly in that person, using lactate provides no value, and you should rely on heart rate and RPE.

   3. SPSpeaker37:08

      And in that person, let's say they're doing two days a week, 30 minutes a day. How long do you like to see that consistency before you slowly increase either the duration or the number of days?

   4. PADr. Peter Attia37:22

      You know, in part it comes down to what we talked about, which is like, how do they feel? You know, I almost want to, uh, you know, inspire within them an appetite to do a little bit more. Um, so, you know, I mean, this sounds silly, but when you're starting out some of this stuff, a lot of it is just the growing pains of being able to sit on a bike and your butt doesn't hurt or being able to walk on a treadmill and making sure that their knees aren't aching or things like that, you know. So, um, the, the, you know, I, I would say within eight weeks to 12 weeks, I would want to start pushing frequency and/or duration. Uh, I, I personally... And, and I don't think there's a right answer here, and if there is, I'm sure someone will comment. I like to push frequency before I push duration. Um, so I'd almost rather go from two to three to four sessions at 30 minutes before we start going to 45. Um, but eventually I'm gonna want the sessions to be at least 45 minutes each.

9. 38:17 – 48:04

   The critical role of VO2 max in longevity

   1. SPSpeaker38:17

      And on the other side of cardiorespiratory VO2 max, before we get into how you start to build that in for people, we do have a few other graphs here that I think are insanely helpful in looking at why VO2 max is so important as people age. And so I'll pull them up here, but do you want to kind of talk viewers and listeners through this side of it as well?

   2. PADr. Peter Attia38:39

      Yeah. This was, this was a graph that I was able to get into the book, so I was, uh, [chuckles] I fought hard for this one because boy, nobody wanted this one in a, in a book. And, and I can understand why. It requires some explanation. So, um, this is, this is a figure that shows the hazard ratio of various comorbidities and performance subgroups. So again, what's a hazard ratio? Well, it gives you an estimate of relative risk. So let's start with the comorbidities because I think that's easier to understand, right? So if a person is a smoker, are they at increased risk? And in this case, the risk is all-cause mortality. So they are, are they, are they at an increased risk of death from all causes? I think anybody would understand the answer to that question is obviously yes. The question is how much? And in this analysis, if you compare a smoker to a non-smoker and ask the question, what is the probability of that smoker dying in the coming 12 months from any and all causes? The answer is it's 41% greater than the non-smoker. Okay, that kind of makes sense. Uh, what if you take two people, one with coronary artery disease, known CAD, and the other without? Well, that's about a 29% difference in all-cause mortality. 29% greater risk, I should say, if I'm gonna be more accurate. What about somebody with type 2 diabetes? Well, again, it's a 40% greater risk of all-cause mortality in the coming year. High blood pressure, 21%. End-stage renal disease, right? So somebody who's on dialysis awaiting kidney transplant, a whopping 178% increase in all-cause mortality. So now what we do is we do the same mortality analysis on that massive cohort of people for whom we have VO2 max data. So these are the data that we showed earlier where we looked at people in those, uh, quartiles. And so, um, what I do every time I run a patient through their VO2 max the first time is I figure out where they are, and if some-- let's just say somebody shows up and they're, um, in the below average camp. Um, so that means they're in the 25th to 50th percentile for their age. I say, "Look, if you just go from below average to above average, right? If I were just to compare you from, you know, your level at the 25th to 50th percentile to someone who's in the 50th to 75th percentile, the hazard ratio is 1.41. In other words, you are 41% more likely to die in the coming year than somebody who is that much fitter than you." And by the way, it's not, [chuckles] it's not lost on anybody that that's the exact same hazard ratio of a smoker to a non-smoker. That's how big the difference is. And if you want to go from below average to high, so now you're going from, say, the second quartile to the third quartile, it's a 100% difference in risk. It's a doubling of the risk of death for that coming decade. I won't go through the rest of these numbers here, but they're all staggering. Um, and by the way, even just going high to elite, 29% difference in relative risk. So, you know, when I talk about how VO2 max is the single most important biomarker we have for lifespan, these are the data from which I make that claim, right? And, and there are obviously other data that are identical to this on different cohorts. But the point is there aren't other biomarkers that will give you hazard ratios of this magnitude. Um, now people often ask, why is that the case? And I think the answer is that VO2 max is probably a remarkable integrator of work. So it is not a biomarker that changes quickly and easily to the magnitudes required to do this, right? Um, you know, you're not going to take your VO2 max from low to elite in a year. Um, you can do it. I would argue you absolutely can do it, but it's not gonna happen in a year. And therefore, when it happens, it's going to reflect an astronomical volume of work that has been done, and the benefits of that work are what are being captured in the VO2 max number.

   3. SPSpeaker42:59

      And that's kind of the lifespan side. I'm going to pull up the other graph here, which is more so on the healthspan side. And I think this was also in your book, but when you kind of combine all three of these VO2 max figures, the first one we looked at with just the bracket and the breakdown, how it compares to different diseases, and then this one kind of paints a really good holistic picture. And so do you want to walk listeners, viewers through this as well?

   4. PADr. Peter Attia43:27

      Yeah. This is another figure that we, we show our patients all the time. Actually, we're probably building another one of this because there's a couple issues I have with this figure. Namely, it stops at the age of 75. So I want to see this-- I want to see the, these data extended to another two decades, and I realize that it's harder and harder to get those data, but I think we can estimate them. Um, what this figure shows is, is really the other bookend of why we want a high VO2 max. So, uh, you know, the figure above and the discussion I just had a moment ago makes it abundantly clear that if you want to live a long life, you better have a high VO2 max. This figure says if you want to live a good life, you better have a high VO2 max, because this gives you a very clear all in one view of what actually happens as your VO2 max declines. You lose capacity. So the graph has a lot of information on here, but it can basically be distilled down into the following. You have three curves for the purpose of illustration. You have people in the top 5%, uh, people right at the middle of the pack, and people in the bottom 5%. So those are the black, uh, pardon me, the green, black, and red curves respectively. Uh, by the way, for anybody paying attention, these data are pulled from a different data source than the previous data. I don't think this is as rigorous, um, a data set, and therefore the numbers don't line up completely. So the fiftieth percentile here is not the fiftieth percentile elsewhere, but it, for the purpose of illustration, not important. Um, the x-axis is time, of course, so as age marches along, you are watching a reduction in VO2 max, which is the y-axis for all curves. So again, observation number one is doesn't matter how fit you are, your VO2 max is going down, down, down. Again, as I said, the problem with this graph, at least one of the problems is stops at the age of 75. And, um, unfortunately, that deprives a patient from seeing that the, the curve doesn't continue along the trajectory of what came before it. It actually gets steeper. And so, um, what you realize pretty quickly is that depending on where you want to be, and that's demonstrated by the activities on the right, you're going to need to be pretty high to avoid the fall. So what it's showing you is, hey, if you want to be able to run ten miles an hour on flat ground, that's, you know, you need a VO2 max in the mid to high 50s. If you want to be able to run six miles an hour, which is a ten-minute mile, up a very steep hill, you need to have a VO2 max of 50. And as you walk down this list, you see that the VO2 max requirement goes down as the aspiration goes down. The point that isn't really clear on this curve is at what point does the VO2 max, um, become sort of rate limiting for activities of daily living? And that's in the high teens, um, approximately. So once the VO2 max is into the high teens, we would say that you are now going to be limited in what you can do from an activity of daily living standpoint. Um, having studied these types of data for a very long time, I know that for myself personally, and by the way, this tends to be true for most of our patients when we put them through the centenarian decathlon exercise, um, most people, at least based on what they're telling you they want to be able to do in the last decade of their life, are going to require a VO2 max of about 30, so high 20s to 30, um, in the final decade of their life. And I mean, Nick, when you look at that, what's your, what's your takeaway if, if I'm telling you you need a VO2 max of, of 30 if you're 90?

   5. SPSpeaker47:13

      Yeah, you better be in the 95th percentile and above along the way.

   6. PADr. Peter Attia47:17

      You have, you have to be higher, right? Because the, the people on this graph who have a VO2 max of 30, um, at the-- at, at age 75 are gonna be lower than that at the age of 90. So yeah, you have to be way above the top of the green curve at the outset. Uh, so, so again, like I know people hear me say, and you've alluded to this, that, "Oh, Peter, he's just being kind of extreme," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. No, no, no, I'm not being extreme. The data are right in front of us here. Like, if you want to be able to, to be completely unencumbered in the last decade of your life, you need to have a very high level of fitness when you're in midlife. And if you don't, that's okay. You have time to do it, but don't, don't wait too long.

10. 48:04 – 57:02

    How to introduce VO2 max training to older or deconditioned individuals

    1. SPSpeaker48:04

       Yeah, it kind of is one of those things where it's like we often joke, like, does everyone need to measure their lactate two times every workout? Probably not, right? Like, that might be you on, like, the heavy data side. But looking at VO2 max, if you want to be able to do those things, that's not like, uh, you're measuring lactate every day. That's just a black and white fact kind of written in stone.

    2. PADr. Peter Attia48:29

       Yep. You, you, you don't need to... I mean, well, we should talk about how you can train for VO2 max, but yeah, you, you don't, you don't need the devices to do this, um, even though I like using devices.

    3. SPSpeaker48:41

       Well, and that's actually where we're going next, which is when do you start when someone is starting to train or getting back into it? You know, you mentioned you'll start them in the zone 2 a few days a week. Obviously, zone 2 two days a week, 30 minutes is a lot different than a VO2 max exercise, which can take a lot more. So how do you have your patients in that age bracket, 50 and plus? When do you have them start training for VO2 max? How do you have them start training? How do you think about that?

    4. PADr. Peter Attia49:10

       So a couple things. One, um, again, you, y- y- you know, the, the wider the base, the higher the peak. So I want to build a reasonable aerobic base before I start pushing VO2 max. And by the way, you do experience increases in VO2 max just from base building, um, aerobic activity. So, um, if you take a person who's completely deconditioned and you put them into just a zone two program and you slowly add duration, um, and frequency to that, and then you retest their VO2 max, it'll be higher even if they have never done a single interval. But ultimately, to really start to boost VO2 max, you are going to need to add more intense movement. Um, I think that the easiest way to do that, and the way we typically do it with our patients in a really detrained individual or untrained individual, is just to add a little bit of interval training to the zone two workout. So for example, if a person is doing their zone two on a treadmill, and let's say you've got them walking three miles an hour and, you know, after a few months they can handle three miles an hour at 4% or 5% incline, you say, "Great, I want you to finish, uh, the workout doing five one-minute, quote-unquote, bursts where you increase the slope from 5% to 10%. And you're just gonna do it for a minute." Um, and that's gonna really tire them out. You do a minute on and take a minute off, a minute on, take a minute off. So you start to get them used to increasing the intensity. This also becomes a chance to assess, um, is this gonna be something that they can do safely or are they gonna completely deteriorate in form? Um, so, you know, I, I'll just... I'll give you an example of something I used to do. So I used to do really, really what I think is, looking back, I mean, I'm lucky I never got injured, but I used to do some really stupid things for VO2 max training, um, that, uh, r- I think put me at too great a risk for injury. So I used to do deadlift Tabatas. Um, so, you know, I would put 225 pounds on a bar and see how many reps I could do in 20 seconds, take 10 seconds off, and repeat that eight times. Now, did that do a lot for my VO2 max? Oh, you can bet it did. But, you know, when I think about, like, the risk I was putting myself under from a movement perspective, being under that much fatigue in the seventh and eighth round of that where you're trying to push harder and harder, I, I just don't think that makes any sense. And cl- I mean, that doesn't make sense in someone like me who has a lot of training background. I, you know, so, so what do I wanna do? I want to make sure that they're doing these intervals, which we'll talk about in a second, in an activity where the form isn't going to deteriorate to the point of injury. Now, let's talk about the gold standard for how to train VO2 max, and this is something we've discussed at length in at least two or three other podcasts that we'll link to. The sweet spot for that energy system is three to eight minutes of work. And what defines that? What defines that is you do as much work as you can at a steady state in that period of time. So it, um... So at the low end of that is three minutes, so meaning how hard can you push for three minutes such that it's roughly the same level of, um, work output, so watts, uh, if you're on a bike, for example, um, but by the end of three minutes you're truly spent. And then at the upper end of that it would be up to eight minutes long, which obviously means it's gonna be far less wattage, but the same physiologic response, which is by the end of it you are truly gassed. Um, I've talked about this. Again, I personally just tend to gravitate to four minutes. Four to five minutes is where I like to do the work, um, but I think it's great to mix it up. Um, and I'll use four minutes as an example just so folks understand what this should feel like. Um, when I'm doing a four-minute interval, I barely notice the first minute. So if at the end of the first minute of a four-minute interval you're dying, you went out way too hard. It's okay. Try, just try, try, try different. Try the next time. Um, at two minutes I'm still feeling pretty darn good, and believe it or not, sometimes I'm wondering if I'm not... if I shouldn't be pushing a little bit harder. At three minutes I'm truly wearing it, um, and that last minute is brutal, and that's, again, assuming I'm largely holding power constant for the four minutes. So that's a general rule. The way I describe it is three quarters of the way into the interval, so six minutes if it's an eight-minute interval, three minutes if it's a four-minute interval, three quarters of the way into, into the interval you should be at the 50 pers- percent level of your pain. Um, and so o- o- once a person is ready to graduate into a dedicated VO2 max session, that's what I wanna do, and I wanna see them doing that once a week. Uh, again, if you're training to be an elite level cyclist you're gonna have to do it more than that, but if you're training to just, you know, minimize risk and maximize gain, I wanna see people start to push those. And maybe the first time they do it they can only do four rounds of that, but, you know, eventually you'll get up to five, six, seven, eight rounds of that, again, at, if we're talking about four minutes. And when you put in a warm-up and a cool-down, and obviously I should say you're doing that at a one-to-one work-to-recovery ratio, I should have mentioned that earlier. So, um, if it's four minutes of work, it's four minutes of, uh, very, very passive recovery. Um, not a, not a hardcore active recovery. It's, it's a true rest and recovery. Um, but again, if you, you know, we're, we're talking about 60 to s- 75-minute workouts here.

    5. SPSpeaker55:05

       Yeah, and so I think if what I'm hearing you say is correct, it's one of those as it relates to VO2 max, even though It's so important, and we just looked at all the numbers of why it's so important. It's also one of those in an older population who maybe is deconditioned, you're not pushing them to start VO2 max training right away. Like, you-- It's important to get the base, and it's also important to take, even when they start VO2 max training, take it slow, and it's more important to build that over time than it is to just try to rush into it and either not enjoy it or, worst case, get hurt.

    6. PADr. Peter Attia55:41

       That's right. And the older and less conditioned you are, the less I want you to hurt during those VO2 max intervals. Like, y-y-you know... And, and, again, I, I, I bring it back to me because I can speak from my own experience with much more clarity. The level of pain I am in today when I do my VO2 max sets is nothing compared to what it was 10 years ago, Nick. I mean, 10 years ago, it was truly pushing to the point of vomiting. I do not push that hard anymore. Um, I still push hard, probably harder than most people would expect, but it's not that level. And in 10 years, when I'm in my early 60s, it will be even less of a push than it is today. So y-y-you know, the name of the game is play the game and stay in the game forever. And so we are really looking to minimize injury here, and we're looking to minimize burnout. And the first few times a person even experiments and dabbles with these four-minute intervals, I actually want them to come away thinking, "That wasn't too bad." Great. Try a little bit harder the next time. But we're, we're not here to, to sort of wipe you out, um, after the first session or even the first couple of rounds.

11. 57:02 – 1:00:49

    Options for performing zone 2 and VO2 max training

    1. SPSpeaker57:03

       Anything else you want to say on the cardio side before we move to the strength side?

    2. PADr. Peter Attia57:09

       Well, I think, you know, we, we could talk about how to go about doing it. Um, the, the good news is for VO2 max, I think you have many more options. For zone 2, believe it or not, you're kind of limited because of the steady state nature of it. So again, for me, zone 2, if I'm not traveling, is always on my bike, uh, which is on a stationary bike, so on a, on a trainer. Um, that, and that's it, full stop. Um, if I'm traveling, I will usually do it on an incline treadmill. So I go to what I consider a normal brisk walking speed, which is 3.4 to 3.5 miles per hour, and then I just take the incline up. So I might warm up at 10 degrees or 10% grade, but usually I wind up at about 15% grade. So three and a half miles an hour, 15% grade, that's my zone 2. Um, and so outside of that, you c- you can do it on a rowing machine if you're a really good rower, but for most people, they're not efficient enough on a rowing machine, so they typically end up blowing up and through their zone 2 ceiling. Um, you can-- I can do it on a StairMaster, but, you know, you just have to, you know, you just have to be sort of careful about it. By the way, when you're using StairMasters and treadmills and all these things, remember, you probably don't want to have your hands on the device because there's too much variability in how much of the, um, the stress you're taking away. Does that make sense? Like, if you're on a treadmill and you're holding onto it, there's so much variability in how much of the load you're alleviating, um, that I prefer to just go hands off the machine and settle in at a steady state that's gonna be, be consistent. Um, when it comes to VO2 max, you have way more, uh, optionality. And, you know, that's where I ride my bike outside. But, you know, you could be, you could be doing almost anything, um, provided that there's a constant enough space for you to do it for, you know, at least three minutes. Um, so, you know, swimming, great, great way to do VO2 max training because you don't have the impact, uh, all of those other things. So, um, again, you could do it on a treadmill if you wanted to, and you could run or you could, you know, again, just walk at a steeper incline if your zone, you know, if, if your zones permit it. Um, so I guess that's the only other point I would make about this.

    3. SPSpeaker59:26

       And if someone is older, let's say 65 plus, so they're in the older side of what we're talking about, and they haven't done zone 2 before, and they say, "Hey, do you have a preference on is it better to start on a treadmill versus a bike?" Have you noticed anything as it relates to those two where it's... 'Cause we, we talked early on about the importance of even just walking, right? Getting, like, 5,000 steps, 7,000 steps. So would you want to see people or encourage them to start on a treadmill, or do you think a bike is just as safe, just as effective?

    4. PADr. Peter Attia1:00:01

       Yeah, I mean, look, I think all things equal, if this is the only exercise a person is gonna be doing, I might lean a little bit towards the treadmill if they were truly agnostic, just because at the end of the day, walking is a more valuable skin, skill than cycling, right? Um, I mean, cycling has no application beyond cycling. Um, and whereas walking is a very important part of who we are. Um, it's our superpower to be bipedal. So the more time you can spend doing it, the better you are. Um, again, for someone like me, it's kind of moot because I walk a lot anyway. I'm rucking. I'm, I'm get-- I'm forcing that system to work elsewhere. Um, so, so, you know, I might as well do something I enjoy the most, which is probably riding a bike.

    5. SPSpeaker1:00:48

       So

12. 1:00:49 – 1:05:21

    The ability to make gains in strength and muscle mass as we age

    1. SPSpeaker1:00:49

       moving on now from the cardio side to the strength side, we already kind of looked at how muscle mass can drop as we age. What do we know about the possibility to gain muscle mass as we age?

    2. PADr. Peter Attia1:01:04

       You know, it's really interesting. It's not that dissimilar from what we've talked about on the cardio front. So, you know, research is very consistent here, um, in demonstrating that resistance training can increase muscle strength, uh, and muscle hypertrophy at any age. Again, um, you know, y-y-you, you tend to get into very small studies here. Um, but But when you look at, you know, large pooled analyses, you can see that even if you limit your analysis to people over the age of 80, um, which are people who are clearly in the, in that, in that area of, um, you know, being on the downhill for strength and hypertrophy, um, training can offset losses and in a, in a deconditioned individual can actually make gains. You know, look, y- I don't think, you know, just as I hopefully made a case for why you can't overstate the importance of cardio training, both at low and high intensity, I don't think you can overstate the importance of strength training. I, I just don't think there's anybody out there who shouldn't be lifting weights. Um, I, I can't, I can't think of a case. I mean, unless you're decidedly saying, "I don't want to live the, the longest, healthiest life I can." If that, if that's the case, then by all means don't lift weights. But, but if you're in the camp that says, "I want to maximize how well I can live and maybe even how long I can live, what should I do?" Um, then you, you have to be lifting weights regardless of age, regardless of sex, regardless of injury. You know, you have to work around all of those things. Um, so again, there's a very similar study, um, to the one I cited earlier. Again, I don't want to go too study heavy, but, you know, this is just so illustrative of the point. Um, there was a study that looked at people in their late 70s and early 80s and people in their 20s, um, [clears throat] and it at the outset measured three rep max for leg extension and then put them on a six-week, uh, resistance training program. And, um, the people in their late 70s and early 80s had a 78% increase in their strength, uh, which is almost identical to the 83, 84% increase that was found in the younger individuals. Again, I, I-- it, it's important to understand that, yes, these people were significantly different in the absolute strength that they had. Uh, the average leg extension in the people, uh, who were in their late 70s and early 80s was only 22 kilograms versus, you know, 178 kilograms for the young participants. Um, but nevertheless, this is an important point. That is, everybody has the capacity to improve, um, and therefore everybody needs to be doing this. Um, I think the other thing that we've talked about in previous podcasts, most notably I think we've talked about this with Andy Galpin on a couple of occasions, is, um, um, the importance of Type II fibers. So, uh, one of the things that Andy said that has always stuck with me, and I think it's just such a, a great way to think about this, he, he, he almost described it as a hallmark of aging, is the atrophy of the Type II muscle fibers. Um, so again, you have Type I fibers, you have Type II fibers. The Type II fibers are the glycolytic fibers. They are the much more powerful fibers. They have more contractile force. They're the ones that are responsible for power, not just muscle size and not even just strength, and clearly not muscular endurance. And these are the things that basically peak when we're in our 20s. And so, y- you know, every day I'm sort of thinking about what am I doing to, um, preserve them and minimize their loss. And again, uh, a study we'll link to demonstrates that Type II muscle fiber cross-sectional area, um, was increased by 27% in men aged 60 to 73 with 13 weeks of resistance training. Now again, you have to train relatively heavy for your level of strength. Um, you have to push to make those results happen. Um, but again, this can be done very safely as we'll, as we'll talk about.

    3. SPSpeaker1:05:20

       Yeah,

13. 1:05:21 – 1:12:40

    How to implement strength training for older individuals

    1. SPSpeaker1:05:21

       and I think now's the time to kind of look at that a little bit, which is you have a patient who's older, they come to you and they have not been strength training, and, you know, maybe they even do a DEXA and they see their metrics are really low as it relates to muscle mass. How do you start to incorporate that strength and resistance training to that individual?

    2. PADr. Peter Attia1:05:41

       Well, I mean, I think there's a real parallel here with what we talked about on the endurance side. So I always start from the same vantage point, which is if you're new to strength training, I want to make sure that in two to three months you're looking back at the last two to three months thinking, A, I enjoyed that. It wasn't as bad as I thought it was. 'Cause remember, if someone hasn't lifted weights before, there's a reason, right? Like, there's something about it that they are either intimidated by, afraid of, or didn't think it was valuable enough. I mean, there's a reason for it. So A, I want to undo that reason. Um, secondly, I want them to feel something is different. I want them to feel like, "Well, you know, I remember when I started this, I could only do this many pushups and now I can do that many pushups." Or, "When I was doing leg extensions or leg presses, I had the pin on this weight and now it's like 50% higher." And, um, so, so, so that's, that's the first principle. Second principle is, again, similarly, we are going to start with volume more than we are gonna start with load. Muscle, muscle, muscular resistance matters more to me than strength at this point, so I'm not going to lead in with, "Let's go after those Type II fibers." It's gonna be, "Let's work on the Type I fibers," and I don't care if you need to do 15 to 20 reps on every exercise. So be it. Um, I'm not even really at this point going to be concerned with all the nuances of RPE, right? You know, and we've talked about this on many podcasts, including not just the podcast with Andy, but with Layne Norton. Um, the data are that, you know, it, the number of reps you do for hypertrophy and strength do- especially for hypertrophy, don't really matter provided you get to within one or two reps of failure. Well, we're not even really going to push that out of the gate. Um, w- we might prescribe, hey, pick a weight that you fail at about 12 to 15 reps. Um, but again- less concerned as to whether that's an RPE 2 or an RPE 4. Um, the other thing to keep in mind is in parallel to this, you've got to be working on some of the stability stuff, which is not necessarily weight-based. So this is where you're working on, um, intra-abdominal pressure exercises, really making sure that they can kind of pressurize the cylinder as we stay, um, breathing exercises. So a lot of the stuff we borrow from DNS and PRI, where we want to make sure that they can move their ribs correctly. Um, and obviously you want to make sure that they have the ability to even recruit muscles correctly. And a lot of those things are kind of hard, but you know, I'll, I'll never forget an example Beth Lewis had me do, um, you know, one, one of the early times when I met her, which was, you know, laying on a floor, right? So picture me laying on my back. Um, my knees are up, or my, my knees are up, but my feet are flat on the ground, right? So I'm in a, a very relaxed position. And it was an exercise around being able to sequentially recruit hamstrings one leg at a time and put the foot down into the ground and pull it back, if that makes sense. Um, so again, that's a pure hamstring isolation exercise, and yet despite having very strong hamstrings, I really struggled to do that exercise while keeping my pelvic floor stable. Um, so again, those are the types of things where you're not gonna get injured, but you're gonna have to learn to start recruiting and controlling a muscle. And again, once you do that, you're much safer lifting.

    3. SPSpeaker1:09:15

       And how do you think about resistance training for people kind of who are in the even older category, which is, let's say, 65 plus? I know at the outset you kind of mentioned that at a certain point, the muscle mass you're losing and the things you have to be aware of is even higher. So how do you talk to a patient about this who is even in that older category?

    4. PADr. Peter Attia1:09:39

       I think you just have to do everything a lot slower. So for example, somebody at this age, um, y- you know, you'll do TRX, but you want to be much more stable in the positions you're doing. I would almost without exception only have somebody at this age, if they've never lifted before, um, only using machines to start. I wouldn't really want them mucking around too much with dumbbells out- outside of maybe doing carries. Um, but I, I don't, I wouldn't want them picking, even picking up dumbbells to do lunges or things like that. I would sort of save that for phase two of what they're doing. Um, and truthfully, uh, you know, even though DNS, dynamic neuromuscular stabilization, which, uh, people know I'm a big fan of, um, w- when people think about it, you sort of think of these baby positions. Well, the reality of it is those positions are very important, uh, for people of any age. And so, um, teaching an older person, uh, especially a person who's new to physical activity, some of those positions is very valuable because, A, it's doing all the stuff I talked about a second ago, but they're also getting comfortable with being on the floor and moving on the floor. Again, this is a s- something that, you know, you and I will take for granted, Nick, for some time, um, but, but people, you know, 20 years older, 30 years older than us, um, can't take it for granted that being on the floor, moving on the floor, and getting up on the floor unassisted, uh, is, is something that, that they should be able to do easily.

    5. SPSpeaker1:11:08

       And you kind of hinted at it there. So let's say someone is kind of in this older bracket, even 50 plus, and they're like, "Okay, I'm gonna start resistance training." They obviously don't have a home gym, right? Most of people in that category aren't gonna have that. And so if they do walk into kind of their local gym fitness center, you would encourage them to start on the machines at first and lower weights just to slowly work that up before grabbing free weights, grabbing dumbbells, anything like that.

    6. PADr. Peter Attia1:11:38

       I mean, again, I, it, at this level, it's difficult for me to provide, you know, very, very, um, thorough analysis because everybody is different, and, and clearly what, what you might say makes sense if this person also happens to have a trainer who's really good with them, yeah, you're gonna say, "Look, you're, you're gonna push things a little bit quicker." But if we're really starting at, hey, this is a person who's, you know, gonna be doing a lot of this stuff alone in a gym where there's a ton of intimidating stuff going around, I would say, yeah, like, let's stick with the machines. Um, and I wouldn't be trying to do, you know, dumbbell presses or, you know, kettle- you know, kettlebell exercise or anything like that. No, I, I think you, you really want to build your strength and stability, um, with body weight and with machines before you progress. Again, if you have the luxury of having a trainer and that trainer is very good, I think they'll be able to progress you more quickly to those other things.

14. 1:12:40 – 1:17:45

    Advice for avoiding injury when strength training

    1. SPSpeaker1:12:40

       So then, Peter, you kind of hinted at it there, but a lot of people who are in the older category, you know, they may be concerned about resistance training due to potential injury. So when you have your patients who are older start to resistance train, start to build muscle, are you worried about injuries? Kind of how do you speak to them about how they should think about that aspect, especially starting out or if they've never started before?

    2. PADr. Peter Attia1:13:11

       You know, truthfully, I, I, I think anybody who's worked with, with people, be it athletes or, or, you know, people who are really deconditioned, you always have to think about this, right? Because you're always balancing providing enough training stimulus to get the benefit. And remember Training is a hormetic activity, right? It has to create a stimulus, whether that be on the, um, aerobic system, whether that be for the type 1 fiber, the type 2 fiber. Like, there, there has to be a stimulus that comes from pushing outside of a comfort zone. Um, so we have to have that training stimulus, but we know that if we do too much, we're going to get injured, and I hope that by now I've made the case for why injury must be avoided at all cost, because injury means time to decondition, and the older we get, the more, uh, problematic that gets. Again, you know, I think about the back injury I sustained when I was 27 years old that basically left me unable to walk for three months and unable to do much of anything for nine months. Well, today if you look at me, there's really no lasting effect of that. But imagine that had happened to me when I was 70. That's the, that's it. My life is over. Like, I never get back to where I was. So, um, i- it's probably safe to say that the most common reason for injury when you're starting out is m- is progressing along the intensity axis, uh, too soon. So remember we talked about how you push frequency, you can push duration, you should, you could push intensity. I think you wanna err on the side of, uh, a- again, my, my heuristic is move the frequency, then the duration, lastly the intensity. Um, so, so that's clearly true on the cardi- cardio training side, but I think it's also true on the strength training side. Um, obviously another very important part of injury is just a lack of neuromuscular control. Um, [lips smack] so y- you know, that accounts for many things, from why people fall more frequently as they age to how people get injured when they can't... Let's, if we're just limiting it to talking about strength training, you know, why are individuals getting hurt when they're lifting weights? Well, a lot of it is maybe they're moving a weight that they can't control. You know, we've talked a lot about the importance of being able to control the eccentric phase of a movement. And, um, I think we've all seen someone in the gym who's just throwing weights around, um, and getting away with it, but that, you're gonna stop getting away with that the, the older you get. So we wanna really make sure that people have the coordination, they're doing the types of drills like agility, agility ladders, you know, uh, eye, high, high, hand-eye coordination exercises, ball tosses, um, such that they're kind of generating neuromuscular control in addition to, to strength. Um, probably the other a- big area where we see injuries is due to a, a lack of movement variability. Um, so, um, y- you know, I, people say, "Well, you know, should, do I need to squat and deadlift and bench press?" And, and I think the short answer is no. Um, I think a lot of those things can be done with, for example, squats and deadlifts, y- you can accomplish many of those goals using single leg, uh, variants that are far less weight. Um, and even something like a bench press with a bar, I would much rather substitute in, um, once you're ready for that, floor presses, um, and single arm floor presses. So you'll have one arm, you'll be laying on the floor with knees, um, up, feet flat on the ground, one arm straight up, the other arm doing the presses. And again, what's, what's nice about that is on a floor press, yeah, your range of motion is nowhere near what it is on a bench, because you're obviously not gonna be able to bring the elbow, you know, below your, your back, which you could on a bench. Um, so you lose a bit of range. It's clearly not as good a, you know, quote unquote, as good a pec exercise, but there's also a very good margin of safety there, right? Your, think about how much harder it is to hurt yourself doing a floor press, um, than, um, than a, than a regular traditional bench press. So, you know, these are, these are just some slight examples of ways that you can think about minimizing injury. Uh, and that, that's, you know, I, by the way, just as an example, like when I was coming back from shoulder surgery, I mean, it was probably a year of just doing floor presses before I proceeded to go back onto a bench.

15. 1:17:45 – 1:27:00

    Risk of falls: the devastating consequences and the factors that increase fall risk

    1. SPSpeaker1:17:45

       Yeah, it kinda reminded me, I can't remember who it was, but someone once told us they used to do Tabata deadlifts, and that could be potential good example of a good way to get injured, correct?

    2. PADr. Peter Attia1:17:57

       I mean, anybody stupid enough to do that, Nick, I mean, gosh, I would, I just, I don't even know what I would say [laughs] .

    3. SPSpeaker1:18:03

       If they're doing Tabata deadlifts, you have to question everything they say, right? Like, how can they be trusted on anything?

    4. PADr. Peter Attia1:18:09

       I, I think you would probably have to say they're, you shouldn't listen to a word they say.

    5. SPSpeaker1:18:13

       Well, if I can remember who that is, I'll make sure to tune him out going forward.

    6. PADr. Peter Attia1:18:18

       If, if, if you can remember, let us know.

    7. SPSpeaker1:18:19

       [laughs] Um, on that front, fall risk. You've talked about it before. You mentioned it, um, earlier. Do you just wanna speak about fall risk? We also have a few graphs here that, again, we wouldn't have pulled if they didn't tell such a story, but I think it'd be really important here to talk about fall risk, 'cause I think this is important not only for people in this age category, but also even anyone who's still listening that's even younger, to see what this can look like, and it's also to give them that motivation to even train at a younger age. Kind of what you hinted at earlier, it's like saving for retirement at a much early age. So what do you wanna tell people about falls?

    8. PADr. Peter Attia1:19:01

       Boy, I, I don't, I just don't think we can say enough about it. I, I think back to all of the failures of our traditional medical training, and there's so many, right? I mean, you, we didn't, you know, in, in four years and $250,000 of education at Stanford, how many hours of lecture did I have on exercise? Zero. You know, when was this discussion about falling presented to us as medical students? Never, right? So, um- You know, in the United States, over 14 million or 25% of people over the age of 65 will fall each year. Um, now to be clear, that's people who report it. So we believe that that number is significantly higher. Um, this risk goes up quite non-linearly. So by the time we're talking about octogenarians and nonagenarians, the annual incidence of falling is at least 50%. And you'll recall that I said that, um, the risk of death from that fall, depending on the series you look at, will be somewhere between 15 and 30% of those falls, if they result in a broken hip, will result in fatality within the 12 months that ensue. Um, pull, pull up this graph. This is-- I know that this is a graph we had showed in a newsletter a couple of years ago, but I, I think it's every once in a while, you don't really need any statistics to understand this. You just need to look at the graph. So this is the, um, normalized death rate per hundred thousand people, um, you know, for over the last basically 15 years. Um, these are data from the CDC, and you can see that just from 2007 to 2016, we've seen a 30% increase in fall deaths. Um, to put it in perspective, um, the projection is that by 2030, we're going to expect to see seven fall deaths every hour in the US. Um, again, it's very difficult to wrap our minds around this, I think. And, and I think all of us as physicians, certainly myself in this category, unless you're a physician who specifically has a geriatric practice, maybe where you would see more of this, I, I, I just don't think we can wrap our minds around this problem and the magnitude of this problem. Um, a-a-again, if you look at the data in 2018, um, you know, we're talking about 36 million falls reported to eight million injuries. Uh, that looks like it's going to very quickly become 52 million falls with 12 million injuries in about five years, uh, for people over the age of 65. So, um, I think that it's safe to say that falls pose, um, not by magnitude, but certainly by severity, um, as significant a threat to an aging individual as the typical horseman that we've spoken about so often.

    9. SPSpeaker1:22:21

       What do we know about the reasons for falls? What makes a fall worse than the others? You know, because as you mentioned, these are only reported falls. So there's probably a lot of times where if someone falls and they get up and they're just a little banged up, they're not going to report it to anybody. And so if we want to double click on falling in particular, what do we know about more detail on that that make it more dangerous than others?

    10. PADr. Peter Attia1:22:46

        Yeah. So I think there's two ways to kind of think about this, right? There's what is it that increases our susceptibility to fall, and why is that going up as we age? And then there's another issue, which is not only does your probability of fall going up, but the severity of the fall is also going up as you age. So those two things are compounding, and that's why if you look at the data, and I actually do think I included this figure in Outlive, I have a figure that shows the death rate of falls by decade. And I mean, if you want, if you're trying to explain to somebody what exponential growth looks like, you just show them that graph, right? Like that's exponential growth, and that's why, right? Two things are compounding non-linearly, and you put them on top of each other. So, so let's talk about it. Like, why is this happening? Well, I think if you're asking like, why are there more falls, it's going to be lower limb weakness, and we should double click on specifically like the role of the toe there. Um, we had a recent podcast with, uh, Courtney Conley that discussed that. Um, difficulty with walking and balance. Remember I said vestibular changes kick in around the age of 65. So all of us become less visually capable, um, and we have less just innate vestibular capacity. Uh, the visual difficulties, uh, foot pain, just poorly fitting footwear as we age. Um, and then of course, there's, you know, medications that people take. So the older we get, the greater we see the incidence of hypertension. Hypertension, hypertension does need to be treated. It's an enormous, uh, risk for stroke and heart attack. But sometimes we over-treat it, and people become orthostatic, um, and when they stand up, they get lightheaded and fall. I don't know if you know anybody that that's happened to, Nick, but, um, that can also be kind of a devastating consequence of, um, just being alive. Um, you also talk about things that I don't think are necessarily age-related. Um, all of those things are age-related, but, but obviously, you know, um, just having, you know, uneven steps around, clutter, all of those things, um, play a role. So, you know, the more of these factors you check off, the more likely you are to fall. Now to the question of, you know, why is it more catastrophic? Um, you know, I think that, a-a-again, you know, a-a-an amazing statistic is that the leading, uh, cause of traumatic brain injury in people over the age of 65 is falling, right? Um, so 95% of hip fractures are driven by falls. Um, so, you know, clearly frailty is the leading cause of this. So, um, frailty means poor muscle mass, poor reactivity, uh, and low bone density. Those are probably the things that are driving the, um, severity of the fall, which are so much higher in a person who's older than, you know, a person who's, who's younger. And so, you know, you recall I alluded back to the podcast with Andy Galpin where we talked about the atrophy of the type two muscle fiber. Well, I think Andy used that as the great example of another reason why falls go up as people age is that, you know, if you or I step off a curb we weren't expecting to be there or, you know, when you're stepping from one level to another and the level is different than you expected, that immediately destabilizes you. Well, the ability to react to that very quickly and get a firm footing, that is a very power-driven movement, right? That's not really about how strong you are. It's actually about how explosive and powerful you are. That is a type two muscle fiber phenomenon. And as you watch the atrophy of those two fibers, you have far less reactive speed in your feet, and therefore you're more likely to fall in response to that. And so again, the more we can train these systems, the better we are going to be able to resist falling.

16. 1:27:00 – 1:32:23

    Mitigating fall risk: the importance of foot and lower leg strength, ankle mobility, and balance

    1. SPSpeaker1:27:00

       And you mentioned there Courtney's episode, which if anyone hasn't listened to or watched will be really good to go back to. But can we double click on the role that the foot plays in fall risk and even in particular one thing she talked about, which was toe strength?

    2. PADr. Peter Attia1:27:16

       Yeah, again, great episode. Absolutely worth going back to if you haven't listened to it. And also, you know, we'll talk about the videos that Courtney and I put together. But, you know, foot health matters. And I think one of the things I took away from the discussion with Courtney was that toe strength was the biggest predictor of falling in people over 65. Now, in that podcast, Courtney ran me through a bunch of tests to determine toe strength. And so, you know, one of those tests, my two favorite, right? So one of those tests was a little card that you put under your toes and it's a dynamometer. So it measures the force that you can push each toe down as the card is trying to be pulled out. And so the rule of thumb, if I recall, was your great toe should be able to push down with at least 10% of your body weight. And if it can't, it's too weak. Toes two through four collectively, pardon me, two through five collectively should be able to push down about 7% of your body weight. Another great test was the kind of lean forward test. So this was when you're standing up straight, you have this little laser device. It sounds more complicated than it is. I've obviously already gone out and bought said laser on Amazon and, you know, link to all that. But you shoot it against a wall and you get a distance and then you lean forward and without, you know, catching yourself, just letting your toes basically do the work to see how far they support you. And you should be able to, I believe, be able to move at least five inches or maybe it's four and a half inches there. So those are some great ways to test. And again, it's just added so much more to how I think about the importance of this stuff. Because I have to be honest with you, I've always thought of foot as an important thing, you know, or not always, but, you know, in the past five years, the importance of toe strength and feet has been important, has been relevant to me for other reasons. But I never appreciated what a role it played in falling. So, yeah, I'll leave it at that. But just to say, you know, we'll link here to a whole bunch of exercises that go to explain how to strengthen your toes. Next thing you want to talk about here is really calf strength. And again, in the videos, Courtney goes through the benchmark tests for both gastroc and soleus test. I would say the following. Virtually nobody I've ever seen has been able to pass these tests out of the gate. These are very difficult tests. And that tells us that most of us are heading into older age with underdeveloped strength in our lower leg. And so, again, it's actually changed my training. And I have added much more soleus and gastroc training. And frankly, it's been at a much heavier weight than I've trained in the past because of my understanding of how those fibers work. The other thing here is around ankle mobility. So another set of tests that Courtney put me through were around dorsiflexion and tibial rotation. And again, I was surprised that I did not pass these with flying colors. And I think I passed on one side but not the other. We showed the side that I failed on, if my memory serves me correctly. But I'll also always remember something that someone told me many years ago, which was if you can't walk down a flight of normal height stairs, so call it a seven or eight inch step, whatever normal is, and keep your toes perfectly pointed forward, you don't have enough dorsiflexion. So if you think about it, a lot of people when they're walking downstairs have to turn their toes somewhat out to accommodate the tibial or the shin angle with the foot. And so I would encourage everybody the next time they're walking downstairs to actually see if they can walk with feet perfectly parallel and pointing forward. And if that's difficult on your lower shin and upper foot, you probably don't have enough dorsiflexion. And so again, I think we'll link here to a whole bunch of exercises that you can use to train that. And there are a handful of devices here that I use. And again, I really like these devices. Don't have any affiliation with all of them. So not promoting something that I'm a part of, but definitely something that I'm a big fan of.

17. 1:32:23 – 1:39:00

    Improving bone mineral density through resistance training

    1. SPSpeaker1:32:23

       And looking kind of the last few questions we wanted to hit are just kind of on a few different variables that relate to exercise. The first is bone mineral density, and you kind of talked about it with falls and frailty, and we had a whole AMA that people can look at on bone mineral density. But what do we know about resistance training for bone mineral density in older adults? Because I do know this is something that as people get older, they're much more worried about and looking at, even compared to people in their 20s, 30s. And also, I think this allows you to talk about, which I think is one of your favorite news stories on this subject. So do you want to kind of speak to that?

    2. PADr. Peter Attia1:33:06

       Yeah. BMD or bone mineral density, which is one of the kind of four pieces of data you get from a DEXA scan, um, is typically reported as both a Z-score and a T-score. Now, it's really important if you are getting a DEXA scan because you want this information, you need to make sure that it's reported segmentally. So a lot of places that do a DEXA scan don't give you the hip and lumbar spine readings. They'll just give you total body T-score and Z-score. And unfortunately, that is not sufficient to understand your risk. So you need a T-score for the lumbar spine and you need a T-score for at least one, if not both of the hips. We, we'd like to see it for both hips, but some places will just do one because the concordance between hips is pretty, pretty high. Um, I'll take a moment just to explain what a T-score is. A T-score is the difference between your bone mineral density, um, and the mean level for a 30-year-old of your sex divided by the standard deviation. If the T-score is below minus one, that is defined as osteopenia. If the T-score is below minus 2.5, that is defined as osteoporosis. So that's sort of one thing to understand. Another thing to understand is how bones work from a density standpoint. So, um, and, and I-- a lot of this is already covered in that AMA that we did, and we should absolutely link to that for, for long, you know, long listening, but I'm just kind of giving the, the TLDR here. Um, we basically are in a bone building, net bold build-- net bone building phase until our early 20s. Um, and then we s- so we sort of hit bone peak, and then it's mostly a decline from that point on. For women, the decline becomes quite precipitous once they hit menopause if they are not placed on, uh, estrogen therapy. Um, you might ask why. Well, it has to do with the fact that estrogen is potentially the single most important hormone when it comes to regulating bone health. And the reason for it is that bones respond to load. So that gets to your question, Nick, which is why does strength training matter so much? It's because it is a load. The bones need a compressive force on them to grow, and the compressive force comes typically when the muscles around them are contracting. Um, by the way, the one thing that I recall from that podcast that stood out as even a greater impact on bone strength was, uh, wrestling and jujitsu. Um, so, you know, f- take that for what it's worth. I know that both of those are near and dear to your heart. But what happens is when the bone is placed under load, think of it as a strain gauge that measures the deflection of the bone, and that strain gauge has to communicate through a chemical signal, uh, to the osteoblasts and osteoclasts, which are the bone building and bone decaying cells respectively. And that chemical signal, so the mechanical signal is transduced into a chemical signal, that's done via estrogen. And so that's why estrogen is so important, because it's the chemical messenger that says, "Hey, I'm under load. I'm being deformed. Please give me more bone building, uh, material here." So, um, y- you know, what else can I say about that? Well, look, you know, unfortunately, this is another one of those things that declines precipitously, um, with age, um, and it's nonlinear, meaning the rate of decline goes up by decade. It's not a constant rate of decline. You referred to a study that was done by Belinda Beck, um, at, I believe, Griffith University in Australia. We'll, again, we'll link to that, but it was called the Lift More Trial. It was published in 2015. I've linked many times before to a great YouTube video where she kind of talks about the high level of this. This is a study that recruited, um, healthy post-menopausal women with low, um, bone mass. So these were women that all had at least osteopenia, T-scores below, uh, minus one. And the intervention group was given eight months of just twice weekly, 30 minutes at a time, so 60 minutes total, supervised, um, strength training, where they were doing five sets of five reps at more than 85% of their one rep max. The reason this study always caught my attention is these were, you know, women who didn't have a background in strength training, and yet they were doing five by fives. And so we want to also kind of dismiss that, the idea that you can't take somebody who's new and get them strong. Five by fives are real set, right? Those are, those are, those are big workouts, and these are being pushed to 85%, beyond 85% of their 1RM. Um- So that was the intervention. The control group was just given low intensity exercise. And after eight months, the, um, BMD of the lumbar spine in the treatment group had gone up by almost 3% at the same time that the controls had lost over 1% of the BMD in their lumbar spine. And basically the same thing was true in the femoral neck. You saw an increase in the women who had been training, uh, versus a significant... It was almost a 2% decrease in the control group. So, um, a- a- again, to me, it's just one of my favorite studies because of the population that it's using and the simplicity of the intervention. Um, so I just can't say enough about the importance of this.

18. 1:39:00 – 1:42:41

    The importance of protein in stimulating muscle protein synthesis, especially in older adults

    1. SPSpeaker1:39:00

       I didn't realize it either, but how awesome of a name for a study is Lift More, M-O-R.

    2. PADr. Peter Attia1:39:05

       [laughs]

    3. SPSpeaker1:39:06

       Like, it's just an, it's an A+ name. Um-

    4. PADr. Peter Attia1:39:09

       It's gotta do it.

    5. SPSpeaker1:39:11

       Yeah, [laughs] just gotta do it. Uh, y- that should be a license plate for you. I feel like every now and then you're looking for license plates. Lift More is an A+ one, although people might be expecting someone insanely jacked bodybuilder-

    6. PADr. Peter Attia1:39:25

       That's true, yeah

    7. SPSpeaker1:39:26

       ... like Arnold style to walk out of that.

    8. PADr. Peter Attia1:39:28

       Yeah, yeah. I, I would, I would, I would not do justice to that license plate.

    9. SPSpeaker1:39:32

       Yeah, that's probably true. Just need to do more Tabata deadlifts to get that muscle size up.

    10. PADr. Peter Attia1:39:37

        [laughs]

    11. SPSpeaker1:39:38

        Um, okay, what about protein? Another subject that you've talked heavily about tons of places. We can link to all of them. But how does protein relate to muscle building, especially in people 15 plus, and how do you talk to your patients about it?

    12. PADr. Peter Attia1:39:54

        Oh, boy, they're sick of it, I'm sure, um, because we talk about it a lot. Protein by itself stimulates muscle protein synthesis. Ingested protein by itself stimulates muscle protein synthesis. So, um, in English, what that means is simply eating protein, even without a strainings, a training stimulus, promotes the building of muscle. Of course, that effect is dwarfed by the effect of a training stimulus plus, uh, protein. Um, I, uh, look, I think at the high level, this is relatively straightforward, right? You, you probably want at least 1.6 grams, uh, of protein per kilogram of body weight, and as you get older, you should start to move that number higher and higher because of what's called anabolic resistance. So as we get older, um, the muscles become less sensitive to the effects of the amino acids. You know, I won't cover it here 'cause I covered it in great depth with, on the podcast recently with Luke Von Loon. Um, but, but it was actually the first time I had a really good explanation, at least speculation, as to why anabolic resistance is taking place. Um, so I've never actually really known why, um, and it turns out that maybe that's because nobody knows. But Luke offered, um, a list of several very, uh, interesting and plausible physiologic reasons for why the aging individual is less and less sensitive to amino acids. Um, so again, we've done so much on protein. I don't think I need to say more here. We'll link to all of those references with both Luke and Don Layman and Layne Norton as well. Um, but the long of and short, the long and short of it is all of the stuff we're talking about in this podcast needs to be supported nutritionally, and nothing is more important than that, uh, of protein intake. Um, uh, we can talk about how to divide it all up. All of that's covered in those podcasts. But the short of it is you really wanna be at a minimum of 20 grams per serving. Um, but it's more nuanced than that, of course, because the type of protein determines the speed with which, um, you're gonna be able to, to incorporate it. Um, general rule is, you know, protein in food is gonna give you a longer, more forgiving window in which to assimilate it. Um, and again, we can link to even a recent, uh, newsletter we wrote that addressed a study looking at some of the conventional beliefs that were challenged by a study that actually Luke was an author on, looking at the difference between whey and casein protein in terms of muscle protein synthesis over time.

19. 1:42:41 – 1:45:25

    Parting advice from Peter

    1. SPSpeaker1:42:41

       All right. So, Peter, I think that kind of wraps at least everything we were hoping to get out. And as we said in the beginning, you know, we've covered some of this stuff in greater detail in other places we'll link to. We didn't want to bog it down with too many scientific studies. Um, and we hope it just kind of give people a little bit of insight how to think about starting to exercise as an older age, and one, why it's important, how to do it, how to start building it up. And so I think as we wrap, any last bit of insight or any last bit of advice you would give to people who are in that category, the 50 plus, the 65 plus, who are saying, "Okay, you convinced me. I'm gonna start doing this"?

    2. PADr. Peter Attia1:43:24

       Yeah, I just kind of go back to w- you know, some of the stuff we've already talked about, which is, um, if, if you're, if you're in that camp, if I'm talking to you and I've hopefully convinced you of this, um, I don't want you to get hurt. I want you to have fun. I want you to look back at this in 90 days and say, "I'm really glad I made this change." And that means do something as much as you can, right? Try to do something every day, and if it means going out for a 15-minute walk after dinner, great. Um, if three months from now you've managed to get to a point where you have a portfolio approach to how you're exercising, so you're doing a little bit of stuff that is actually, you know, resistance training, hopefully even progressing beyond body weight, um, and you're even starting to challenge the different energy systems from a cardio perspective, walking s- you know, walking at a modest pace versus a little bit of really brisk walking or uphill walking, um, and you're not injured and you're enjoying it, we've won the game.

    3. SPSpeaker1:44:31

       Yeah. I think that's all really solid and hopefully, again, hopefully people enjoy this no matter what age you are. But I think that's it, Peter. So anything else you want to say before we part ways?

    4. PADr. Peter Attia1:44:46

       Try to avoid Tabata deadlifts.

    5. SPSpeaker1:44:49

       Try... I did, just so you know I didn't miss it, I did appreciate the callback to you faceplanting in Brazil from, uh, low blood pressure. So we'll include those links to the photos-

    6. PADr. Peter Attia1:45:03

       [laughs]

    7. SPSpeaker1:45:04

       ... in the show notes. But, um, I did, I did appreciate... I didn't want to interrupt you because you were going down a good path, but I did pick that up, just so you know.

    8. PADr. Peter Attia1:45:11

       Very well. All right.

    9. SPSpeaker1:45:13

       Awesome.

    10. PADr. Peter Attia1:45:13

        Until next time.

    11. SPSpeaker1:45:13

        Peter, we'll see you next time. [outro music]

Episode duration: 1:45:25