318 - The Meteoric Rise of Tadej Pogačar: From Prodigy to Cycling Legend

1. 0:00 – 1:38

   Intro

   1. PAPeter Attia0:00

      I've never seen a cyclist who in defeat is, uh, so, so gracious and, um, it's, it- it's, it's almost like you don't... It, it's clear that you're upset, but you're, you demonstrate, um... W- I mean, I remember after that stage, like, you just thanked your team. You just said, you know, "Thank God I had a great team around me today, or I would have come off the podium." Um, that, that's, that's remarkable sportsmanship, but how, um, h- how are you able to do that?

   2. TPTadej Pogačar0:28

      Yeah. Um, but it's not, uh, it's not individual sport.

   3. PAPeter Attia0:33

      Yeah.

   4. TPTadej Pogačar0:33

      It's the team sport, and they, the guys sacrifice everything to, to be there in the Tour, to help one guy to win the Tour. And, uh, and then in this day, we could really see, uh, how the guys reacted to me when I, when I dropped, and, um, they helped me. They support me emotionally, physically, whatever, no?

   5. PAPeter Attia0:56

      Yeah.

   6. TPTadej Pogačar0:56

      And, um, yeah, I just, uh, I really felt like I let them down and, and, uh, I was feeling just, yeah, I was devastated. I was, um, upset, angry, but I couldn't change it. No. So I just went with it. I was feeling down, but yeah, you cannot change nothing. And then, yeah, when we had dinner with the guys was already better and, you know, they really helped me through that days. [upbeat music]

   7. PAPeter Attia1:26

      Hey, everyone, welcome to "The Drive" podcast. I'm your host, Peter Attia. Tadej, thank you so much for making time. Obviously, you just raced,

2. 1:38 – 6:54

   2020 Tour de France win

   1. PAPeter Attia1:38

      uh, yesterday. You've got a race tomorrow, and we're two weeks out from the world championships, so, um, to give us any time is amazing. Thank you.

   2. TPTadej Pogačar1:45

      No, thanks for having me. [chuckles]

   3. PAPeter Attia1:47

      You know, a lot of people listening will, will know everything about you as I do or, you know, they're super fans. But there's also probably a number of people listening who, who might not appreciate kind of the magnitude of, of what you've accomplished in a very short period of time. Um, I learned about you in 2019, uh, as the most promising young cyclist that was coming up, but I don't think many people, probably myself included, expected what happened in 2020 at the Tour de France. Um, what were your expectations going into the Tour that year?

   4. TPTadej Pogačar2:14

      Yeah. Um, [laughs] I was not expecting at all to win in 2020. It was COVID year. Um, we had pretty good trainings, uh, not too many races, so not too much to, to prove, no, in... I mean, 2019 was breakthrough year for me, but then 2020 came, and it was, like, a long period doing nothing, uh, just training. And, uh, we would go to, we went to the Tour with, uh, Fabio Aru and me-

   5. PAPeter Attia2:42

      Yeah

   6. TPTadej Pogačar2:42

      ... as, uh, like two leaders. And, uh, yeah, it turns out in the end I was fighting for podium place, for second place in the last week, and, um, I was really happy with that. And then the final time trial came, and it all, uh, turned the he- uh, table around and, uh, yeah, I won the Tour. It was, uh, unbelievable. I, I think still a lot of people don't, uh, believe it happened, so yeah. [laughs]

   7. PAPeter Attia3:08

      Well, I mean, obviously people at the time of that final time trial said this, "We haven't seen a race like this since Lemoine," uh, and, and Laurent Fignon in, I think it was '89, um, when, when he had that come behind. But what, what stage in 2020 did you realize, "I'm gonna be on the podium"?

   8. TPTadej Pogačar3:24

      On the stage Col de la Loze, I think I was sure I'm gonna be second because this was the queen stage, and I come behind Roglič just 15 seconds. And, uh-

   9. PAPeter Attia3:35

      Yeah

   10. TPTadej Pogačar3:35

       ... yeah, uh, Lopez win that stage on, uh, on high mountain. So yeah, that was the day I, I knew that this is it, no? And, uh, but I also think Roglič thought that day that he's gonna win, so yeah, you never know.

   11. PAPeter Attia3:50

       Yeah, so going into that last time trial, um, what was your team telling you in the radio at, at the time checks or even before the time checks in terms of your delta per Roglič on a kilometer basis?

   12. TPTadej Pogačar3:59

       Yeah. I was in, uh... I mean, uh, Roglič was starting behind me.

   13. PAPeter Attia4:03

       Yeah.

   14. TPTadej Pogačar4:03

       Um, and yeah, the time checks were, like, I think two time checks on, uh, on, on the flat before the final climb, and I, I got the times. Uh, I don't know who was, uh, leading the time, um, on, on the flat section. I got that time and how much I'm, I think I was even behind. And, uh, then when the climb came, there were so many people, I did not hear a word on, in the radio. I just went, uh, like, like we, we thought I, I would go, and, uh, yeah, I just went full gas to the top, so.

   15. PAPeter Attia4:38

       Did you feel anything different that day? I mean, did it, did it feel, like, better than some of the other stages, or was it simply a matter of he had deteriorated more than you across 20 days?

   16. TPTadej Pogačar4:47

       I think, um, yeah, because it was the last hard stage. The next day is just Champs-Élysées, just roll through. You do, uh... I mean, it's still hard race, but, uh, yeah, if everything goes normal, you, your GC stays the same. So I think, uh, yeah, it was, okay, final time trial. I just need to be relaxed. In second place, white jersey. They were preparing white bike for me for next day for, you know, for ceremony.

   17. PAPeter Attia5:14

       [laughs]

   18. TPTadej Pogačar5:14

       And I was... It, it was cool. It was dream, no?

   19. PAPeter Attia5:16

       You didn't feel the pressure.

   20. TPTadej Pogačar5:17

       I didn't feel nothing, no. So I just, uh, yeah, we were really chilled out. I knew the parcours really well because I did recon, uh, before with Alan Piper and Mikkel Bjerg. We did a lot, uh, work on that. And, and then, uh, when the day came, yeah, I was just, um, man, there was... Everybody was happy around, and there was no tension, no stress, nothing, and we just, uh, roll with it. And, uh, in the end, it was, uh, one of, one of the, the best days I ever had. [laughs]

   21. PAPeter Attia5:46

       Yeah. It's a little hard to believe. Do you remember what your average power was over that time trial?

   22. TPTadej Pogačar5:50

       Yeah. Um, I mean, on the flat, uh, I had a power meter and a, and a unit, and then on the climb I didn't. I had nothing because, uh, I wanted, I wanted to have a 6.8 kilograms, uh, bike, so Uh, as light as possible by regulations. But, uh, on the flat I went, I think I was, like, uh, doing three-eighty to three-ninety, so nothing crazy on the flat. But yeah, it was just, uh, um, I guess I was, uh, just going fast enough, you know, to be in that range, uh, because-

   23. PAPeter Attia6:23

       What was your weight by that point of the Tour? Were you 60, 60 kilos?

   24. TPTadej Pogačar6:27

       I think that year, uh, in 2020, I was, uh, yeah, like 66 even, I think. Yeah.

   25. PAPeter Attia6:34

       Really?

   26. TPTadej Pogačar6:34

       Yeah. I was-

   27. PAPeter Attia6:36

       What did you weigh this year?

   28. TPTadej Pogačar6:37

       Uh, this year in the Tour, uh, I sta- I come to the Tour with 64 and a half, and then 65, and 65 and a half, you know. Like, then jumping from around 65-

   29. PAPeter Attia6:48

       Yeah

   30. TPTadej Pogačar6:48

       ... through all the Tour.
3. 6:54 – 9:04

   Learning from previous mistakes

   1. PAPeter Attia6:54

      and in '22 and '23, you have great race, but a couple of stages where it goes wrong. Um, in '22, I guess the first stage where it was a struggle, was it 16, Col de Granon?

   2. TPTadej Pogačar7:10

      Yeah, 20... Yeah, Col de Granon-

   3. PAPeter Attia7:11

      Yeah, yeah

   4. TPTadej Pogačar7:11

      ... we went, uh, Telegraphe, Galibier, down Briançon, al- almost to Briançon and-

   5. PAPeter Attia7:16

      And nonstop attacking.

   6. TPTadej Pogačar7:18

      Yeah.

   7. PAPeter Attia7:18

      Visibly attacking constant, constant, constant.

   8. TPTadej Pogačar7:20

      Yeah. There, uh, where I made my mistake, um, when I, uh, I mean, yeah, shouldn't follow Roglič immediately there on the Telegraphe. He attack already on Telegraphe, uh, with I think, with, uh, yeah, who was, it was Tiesj Benoot, and then Laporte with him on the downhill, and they just flew down. And, uh, when we start the Galibier, they just go one by one. You know, I had to respond, I think, eight or nine attacks.

   9. PAPeter Attia7:52

      And you looked very strong.

   10. TPTadej Pogačar7:53

       Yeah. I was, I was really good, but I think there was, uh, yeah, um, yeah, if you do eight, eight sprints, no, that's just, uh, it takes too much. And then I try to respond-

   11. PAPeter Attia8:07

       Yeah

   12. TPTadej Pogačar8:07

       ... by being stupid, no, and I try to drop everybody from, from the wheel on, uh, on Galibier. But then, yeah, I knew, I knew that Wout van Aert is also in the front, and it's checkmate anyway, no? So yeah, that was just stupid from me.

   13. PAPeter Attia8:24

       And how much of that, I mean, just from a nutritional standpoint, did you feel depleted? Did you feel like you didn't have enough, um... Did you, did you have a bot- Were you, were you short a bottle on that stage or something?

   14. TPTadej Pogačar8:34

       I think, um, I, I ate enough, but-

   15. PAPeter Attia8:37

       You did?

   16. TPTadej Pogačar8:37

       ... w- I think... I mean-

   17. PAPeter Attia8:39

       The legs

   18. TPTadej Pogačar8:40

       ... you c- you cannot eat enough when you do so much.

   19. PAPeter Attia8:42

       Yeah.

   20. TPTadej Pogačar8:43

       You know, uh, you do so much power, you do so much attacking, uh, you, uh, you cannot take more food than [chuckles] you can, no? So I think, uh, yeah, we, we had quite good plan, nutrition, everything. But, uh, yeah, if you do too much with, with your body, you cannot replace that.

4. 9:04 – 11:49

   Training: simulating steep climbs and other challenging race conditions

   1. PAPeter Attia9:04

      When you're training, do you try to simulate that extent of attacking and recovering? And, uh, I mean, obviously you can't replicate that fully in a training session, but...

   2. TPTadej Pogačar9:15

      Well, um, I've always liked, uh, since I was junior, even before, I like to, yeah, I, I knew what's gonna be parcours like. Then, uh, find around my home similar type, and then just, um, do repetitions of one climb, like how many times it, it's gonna be in the race. And now sometimes I still do the same. Uh, I just, uh, see, for example, here in Montreal, tomorrow is like around four minutes climb to five minutes and two short ones. So you just try to do as many as possible, uh, repetitions in the trainings as well, and trying to simulate the, the race.

   3. PAPeter Attia9:55

      What, what kind of climb do you like the most? What kind of climb do you like the least in terms of grade and duration?

   4. TPTadej Pogačar10:01

      Well, depends on the, on the shape also.

   5. PAPeter Attia10:04

      Yeah.

   6. TPTadej Pogačar10:04

      But, um, I don't know. I, I really like, uh, around 20-minute climbs, quite steep.

   7. PAPeter Attia10:13

      Mm-hmm.

   8. TPTadej Pogačar10:13

      Around that.

   9. PAPeter Attia10:14

      Like 10% to 12% or not that steep?

   10. TPTadej Pogačar10:17

       Yeah, I would say now that because we go really fast, and, uh, 7% to 8% it's already a lot of drafting. But then what's more than 9% I think is, is pretty cool because, uh, there's no- not much draft, you know?

   11. PAPeter Attia10:34

       Yeah.

   12. TPTadej Pogačar10:34

       So you can do what you want basically. [chuckles]

   13. PAPeter Attia10:37

       Do you have many climbs near you that replicate where you can do 20 minutes at 8%, 9%, 10%?

   14. TPTadej Pogačar10:43

       Uh, no, not really. Not really. But, uh, like five to 10 minutes, yes, like 9%, 10%. Uh, in Slovenia also just, yeah, around 10 minutes with steep ones. But 20 minutes, yeah, that's not, that's quite rare.

   15. PAPeter Attia11:00

       And then h- how much does the heat factor into it, and how much are you able to replicate that in training?

   16. TPTadej Pogačar11:05

       Well, yeah, heat, uh, I think heat training, uh, became a thing now in cycling a little bit, es- especially this year. The maybe last two, three years, I mean. Um, we try to, yeah, s- like overheat the body in the training session in or in a home trainer, and, um, yeah, because it, it is a big factor. Especially for me, I felt always that, uh, I struggle when it's like super hot. But, um, yeah, if you try to train this, then you can, you can be better.

   17. PAPeter Attia11:39

       Yeah. I mean, um, I guess I could imagine if you're on a trainer at home, it's easy to replicate it. Otherwise, you just have to find the environment at the, at the elevation altitude. Um,

5. 11:49 – 15:30

   Tadej’s historic 2024 season and what contributed to his success

   1. PAPeter Attia11:49

      this year, 2024, remarkable year for you, um, winning the Giro so comfortably, winning the Tour quite comfortably. And but, but seemed to be your strongest year. I mean, people said, "Well, you know, Jonas crashed early in the season," but the truth of it is Jonas' times were pretty remarkable this year. I mean, he seemed to put out very good numbers. So it seemed to be just as much a function of you riding even better this year than Jonas coming in injured a l- as much as he was. What, what... Do, do you feel that that's the case?

   2. TPTadej Pogačar12:20

      Jonas, uh, had a big injury this year.

   3. PAPeter Attia12:22

      Yeah.

   4. TPTadej Pogačar12:22

      Um, yeah, I don't know how exactly his recovery went because they kept it, kept it quite quiet. But, uh, he was, uh... When he once got on the bike, I think he could start immediately training quite normal now, for sure. At first, a little bit, a little by little. But, uh, I think, uh, it affects on a three-week stage race. It affects that, uh, preparation and, uh, yeah, you don't have the capacity to go three weeks. You have the power, like, 10 minutes best power output, or five minute, 20 minute you can do one day, but then maybe, yeah, your body's not used to, to go another day, you know? So I think, uh, I think that was the case with Jonas this year. He had a great power, he got great numbers, but then maybe he lacked this, uh, three-week extent, you know, to, to perform.

   5. PAPeter Attia13:16

      I, I feel like every cycling fan just feels that we have this incredible treat where we have both of you as these remarkable cyclists. You're both so young. We're gonna have many more years of you guys racing each other. Do, do you feel you're gonna continue to race the, the Tour for many, many more years? I mean, obviously people are saying, "Look, y- you know, you could break every record here. You could, you could break the, the five Tours, the seven Tours. I mean, you could do it all." Is it, is it your intention to keep riding Grand Tours, and specifically the Tour de France?

   6. TPTadej Pogačar13:44

      Well, the Tour de France is the biggest race, uh, of cycling, so yeah. To, to be, to keep being on the top, you need to do Tour de France. And, uh, yeah, I think, uh, battling between me and Jonas, uh, is pushing each other, and always the Tour is the test who is better, no, uh, of that year. And, uh, I think, yeah, I will keep, uh, keep on riding the Tour, uh, until I enjoy it, no? When once I don't enjoy this, uh, stress anymore, maybe I, I hang, ha- hang up the bicycle in garage or somewhere. [laughs]

   7. PAPeter Attia14:18

      [laughs] Um, something seemed different in you this year. You seemed stronger. What changed in your training between '23 and '24?

   8. TPTadej Pogačar14:27

      Well, I didn't, uh, change only, uh, training, uh, on the bike. I also implement, like, uh, core training more and more outside of the bike stuff. Um, I'm... I got more into the details of nutrition as well. Um, I'm getting older, so yeah. Um, I'm not, uh, so obsessed anymore with just going cake on cake or, uh, just eating shit, no. So yeah, a little bit by little.

   9. PAPeter Attia14:58

      But wait. Do, does that mean that five years ago you weren't paying much attention to your nutrition-

   10. TPTadej Pogačar15:03

       Yeah. For sure

   11. PAPeter Attia15:03

       ... and you were kind of eating as much as you wanted?

   12. TPTadej Pogačar15:05

       Yeah, for sure. When you're a kid, you can eat what you want, and you don't gain fat, no, you... I mean, you don't gain-

   13. PAPeter Attia15:12

       [laughs]

   14. TPTadej Pogačar15:13

       ... too much because you're evolving. You're, uh-

   15. PAPeter Attia15:16

       Yeah

   16. TPTadej Pogačar15:16

       ... growing up, and, uh, yeah, it's just, uh, yeah, when you're, you're a kid, you can eat what you want. And when you get older, uh, you already see-

   17. PAPeter Attia15:27

       So, so you're at the age right now, 'cause you're gonna be

6. 15:30 – 18:51

   Nutrition for optimal performance: offseason diet and carbohydrate intake during intense training sessions

   1. PAPeter Attia15:30

      26 in a week.

   2. TPTadej Pogačar15:31

      Yeah.

   3. PAPeter Attia15:32

      Do you need to watch your weight in the off-season now?

   4. TPTadej Pogačar15:36

      Um, I mean, my all year looks, uh, more or less the same. I never restrict too much, or I never say, "Okay, I cannot eat cake," or, "I cannot eat chocolate." Um, but all in measurements and when the time is right. Because, uh, if you don't, um, if you restrict too much and you don't touch chocolate for, uh, a month or for, uh, six months, then one time you will break, and you will go crazy, no? And, uh, I think that's not good relationship with food. So you need to have a balance also with, with the bad food also, no? And, uh, then when it comes off-season, I don't have the cravings.

   5. PAPeter Attia16:19

      Yeah.

   6. TPTadej Pogačar16:19

      I'm like, "Okay, now I go vacation. I have nice food, good food, quality food, and, and not, uh, not crazy amount," so I don't gain so much weight. Maybe-

   7. PAPeter Attia16:29

      What's the heaviest you'll be in the off-season? 70?

   8. TPTadej Pogačar16:33

      No.

   9. PAPeter Attia16:33

      It's not even-

   10. TPTadej Pogačar16:34

       Like 69.

   11. PAPeter Attia16:35

       Wow.

   12. TPTadej Pogačar16:35

       Like, maybe 70 after, when you wake up after party or something, when [laughs]

   13. PAPeter Attia16:39

       Yeah, yeah, yeah

   14. TPTadej Pogačar16:39

       ... when our, like, big, big dinner with, I don't know, uh, after birthday party or something, no? When you eat just a lot, but that's just also-

   15. PAPeter Attia16:48

       Yeah, yeah, yeah

   16. TPTadej Pogačar16:48

       ... a lot of times just water weight or something. But around 69 would be maximum, maximum.

   17. PAPeter Attia16:53

       Now, how... Do you have a sense of how many grams of carbohydrate you can drink in an hour when you're training?

   18. TPTadej Pogačar16:58

       You mean drink or eat-

   19. PAPeter Attia17:00

       Both

   20. TPTadej Pogačar17:00

       ... in total? Both.

   21. PAPeter Attia17:01

       Yeah, total amount of carbohydrate-

   22. TPTadej Pogačar17:02

       Yeah

   23. PAPeter Attia17:02

       ... in an hour.

   24. TPTadej Pogačar17:03

       Um, so in, in drink we have either 30 grams or 60 grams in, per bottle.

   25. PAPeter Attia17:07

       Okay.

   26. TPTadej Pogačar17:07

       So normally you drink-

   27. PAPeter Attia17:09

       So not the very, not a strong dilution then?

   28. TPTadej Pogačar17:11

       No, I, I honestly, I, I like, uh, the 30 grams-

   29. PAPeter Attia17:14

       Yeah

   30. TPTadej Pogačar17:14

       ... uh, of grams because then I can eat more.
7. 18:51 – 28:11

   Training metrics: heart rate, power output, VAM, and HRV, and his approach to zone 2 training

   1. PAPeter Attia18:51

      So when you're training right now, uh, I don't mean right now, I mean, like, when you're preparing, say, for The Tour, um, w- how do you define your energy systems? Do you define them more by heart rate, by power, uh, by how you feel? Uh, what are you, what are you using?

   2. TPTadej Pogačar19:07

      I've been training with heart rate monitor since I'm, I don't know, 12 years old or even, like, 10 years old. So I would say I know how my body responds on... I mean, how my heart rate responds when I'm tired or when I'm good. So yeah, I could go by heart rate only. Um, but it's always good to compare heart rate to, to power, but power meters are not so reliable, uh, these days, I would say.

   3. PAPeter Attia19:37

      Really?

   4. TPTadej Pogačar19:37

      Um, yeah. You can have-

   5. PAPeter Attia19:38

      Which one do you guys use? SRM?

   6. TPTadej Pogačar19:40

      We have a Shimano power meter.

   7. PAPeter Attia19:41

      Okay.

   8. TPTadej Pogačar19:42

      But, uh, yeah, you always need to be careful with the temperatures of the, in the outside, the calibration-

   9. PAPeter Attia19:48

      Mm

   10. TPTadej Pogačar19:48

       ... everything, and, uh, yeah, sometimes it can be off.

   11. PAPeter Attia19:51

       Mm.

   12. TPTadej Pogačar19:52

       And, uh, you need to be careful about this. I, in my, uh, experiences. And, uh, yeah, the best, uh, is to train on your home roads-

   13. PAPeter Attia20:01

       Yeah

   14. TPTadej Pogačar20:01

       ... where you can also look the speed, the VAM, how fast you're moving.

   15. PAPeter Attia20:05

       What kind of VAM are you able to reach when you're training?

   16. TPTadej Pogačar20:08

       Well, on a training, uh, seven, 7.5%. If you go all out, I think it's, like, 1,700 to 1,800 of VAM-

   17. PAPeter Attia20:19

       [laughs]

   18. TPTadej Pogačar20:19

       ... for, like, 15 minutes. So yeah.

   19. PAPeter Attia20:22

       [laughs] That's just incredible.

   20. TPTadej Pogačar20:24

       Yeah.

   21. PAPeter Attia20:24

       I mean, people-- I know that people listening might not appreciate that. I'm not gonna take time to explain what VAM is.

   22. TPTadej Pogačar20:29

       Yeah.

   23. PAPeter Attia20:29

       If they know what it is, they understand how crazy that is.

   24. TPTadej Pogačar20:31

       [laughs]

   25. PAPeter Attia20:31

       If they don't, they can look it up. I'm happy when I hit 1,000, by the way.

   26. TPTadej Pogačar20:34

       Yeah. [laughs]

   27. PAPeter Attia20:35

       Just for comparison. [laughs]

   28. TPTadej Pogačar20:36

       No, but, uh, yeah, it depends on the, on the gradient. No, but what I was trying to say is, like, you can, you can see-

   29. PAPeter Attia20:42

       You're using these other metrics.

   30. TPTadej Pogačar20:43

       Yeah.
8. 28:11 – 36:35

   Epic climbs in the Tour de France, mindset after challenging stages, and rebuilding confidence after the 2023 Tour

   1. PAPeter Attia28:11

      Um, okay, changing topics for a second. If we just think about three of the most epic climbs in the Tour de France, um, well, for me, if, uh, like I would say Ventoux, Alpe d'Huez, Galibier, but what, what are, what were the, what would be the most epic climbs? And what I really wanna know is, how do they compare in difficulty? Assuming you're equally fresh on all days, like same situation, if you have to race up each... Pick those three if I said Ventoux, Galibier, and Alpe d'Huez.

   2. TPTadej Pogačar28:36

      Well, of those three, Galibier is the easiest. Then I would say Ventoux second.

   3. PAPeter Attia28:43

      Mm-hmm.

   4. TPTadej Pogačar28:43

      And... No, Alpe d'Huez is second and Ventoux first.

   5. PAPeter Attia28:47

      Ventoux would be the hardest.

   6. TPTadej Pogačar28:48

      I think it's the hardest, yeah. Also because of the nature there.

   7. PAPeter Attia28:51

      Because of the wind at the top and stuff like that?

   8. TPTadej Pogačar28:53

      Wind, heat can be, you know, and, uh... Yeah. Alpe d'Huez, it's hard, but it's, I think it's shorter. Um, and Galibier is depend, yeah, from Brian-

   9. PAPeter Attia29:05

      It depends where it is in the stage too, yeah.

   10. TPTadej Pogačar29:07

       Yeah, from... Also this.

   11. PAPeter Attia29:08

       Yeah.

   12. TPTadej Pogačar29:08

       But, uh, from Briançon side is like dragging up in the valley, and then when you turn right, I mean, it's quite high altitude. But yeah, it's, uh, it's still quite a regular climb. Uh, from the other side you have telegraph and then small downhill and climbing again, but it's like these are cols from Alps. They're all more or less the same. Uh, Galibier, Col de la Bonette, these are almost identical climbs, so you're used to those. And, uh, yeah, Alpe d'Huez is just, uh, mythical. You have, you have way harder climbs than Alpe d'Huez for sure.

   13. PAPeter Attia29:42

       What is the hardest climb, you think, in the, in the modern Tour?

   14. TPTadej Pogačar29:45

       Well, uh, [chuckles] for, for me, uh, personally, uh, Colle delle Rose would be the hardest. Uh, I think everybody would-

   15. PAPeter Attia29:53

       Yeah

   16. TPTadej Pogačar29:53

       ... would agree on it, that this was my, uh, worst climb.

   17. PAPeter Attia29:55

       Well, you had a very difficult day there in '23.

   18. TPTadej Pogačar29:58

       Yeah.

   19. PAPeter Attia29:59

       Uh, that was what, stage eighteen?

   20. TPTadej Pogačar30:01

       Uh, stage seven- uh.

   21. PAPeter Attia30:04

       Was it the queen stage?

   22. TPTadej Pogačar30:05

       Yeah, it was, uh, stage seventeen I think-

   23. PAPeter Attia30:07

       Okay. Yeah, yeah

   24. TPTadej Pogačar30:07

       ... or sixteen. But yeah, uh, I did it twice and yeah, first time, okay, I did good, but then I felt really [chuckles] tired after it. Was really exhausting climb. And yeah, last year was, uh, we did Rose and then small downhill and to Altiport in, um, what's called, uh, this town, um, Courchevel. Yeah, this was brutal. But, uh, yeah.

   25. PAPeter Attia30:35

       But this is something about you Tadej that is very, um- It's very interesting. Uh, I've never seen a cyclist who in defeat is, uh, so, so gracious and, um... It, it's, it's almost like you don't... It, it's clear that you're upset, but you're, you demonstrate, um... I mean, I remember after that stage, like, you just thanked your team. You just said, you know, "Thank God I had a great team around me today or I would have come off the podium." Um, that, that's, that's remarkable sportsmanship, but how, um, how, how are you able to do that? I, I, 'cause I... If I put myself in your shoes, I would just be so pissed off I wouldn't even wanna talk to the media. Like, I would just wanna be locked in the trailer, you know?

   26. TPTadej Pogačar31:17

       Yeah. Um, but it's not, uh, it's not individual sport.

   27. PAPeter Attia31:21

       Yeah.

   28. TPTadej Pogačar31:21

       It's a team sport. And they, the guys sacrifice everything to, to be there in the Tour, to help one guy to win the Tour. And, uh, and then in this day we could really see, uh, how the guys reacted to me when I, when I dropped. And, um, they helped me. They support me emotionally, physically, whatever, no?

   29. PAPeter Attia31:44

       Yeah.

   30. TPTadej Pogačar31:45

       And, um, yeah, I just, uh, I really felt like I let them down and, and, uh, I was feeling just... Yeah, I was devastated. I was, um, upset, angry, but I couldn't change it, no, so I just went with it. I was feeling down, but yeah, you cannot change nothing. And then, yeah, when we had dinner with the guys was already better and, you know, they really helped me through that days.
9. 36:35 – 45:02

   Racing dynamics, media criticism, and Tadej’s reflections on racing records

   1. PAPeter Attia36:35

      do you watch, have you seen any of the Netflix series, the two... The, you know, the Netflix has done the two specials on the Tour. Have you ever watched them?

   2. TPTadej Pogačar36:41

      Yeah, I watched, uh, the first season I didn't watch. The second season I watched, uh, because I was in a training camp and, and I didn't have anything better to watch. But, uh, yeah, for people like, uh, us, uh, when we are there, no-

   3. PAPeter Attia36:55

      Yeah, it's-

   4. TPTadej Pogačar36:56

      ... it's not so fun to watch. [laughs]

   5. PAPeter Attia36:57

      You know, it's fun for me to be able to watch it with my wife or with friends if they're not cycling fans, right? So they're not gonna watch The Tour with me and stuff like that. One of the things that people who don't watch cycling, and frankly people like me who do, still cannot believe is how you guys are able to ride while fans are encroaching the roads.

   6. TPTadej Pogačar37:16

      Yeah. [laughs]

   7. PAPeter Attia37:16

      Have you... What's the closest call you've had with a fan?

   8. TPTadej Pogačar37:20

      Well, uh, first, yeah, the fans are amazing. Uh, when I was a kid, I, I alwa- I always wanted that feeling to ride through the group of fans like this, and, uh, now I enjoy it the most. And yeah, the closest I've been, I mean, uh, I don't know. Yeah, in Colle delle Finestre was, uh, when, um, in 2020 was some close calls with Slovenian fan. [laughs] And, uh, yeah, but normally you need to watch the flags. The flags are really, really tricky one because they are waiting in the f- in the middle of the road, and they move it the last time, and sometimes, you know, they, they move differently the flag and [laughs] it's a tricky one.

   9. PAPeter Attia38:09

      But when I'm watching this with my wife, she gets so mad at the TV.

   10. TPTadej Pogačar38:12

       Yeah. [laughs]

   11. PAPeter Attia38:13

       She's like, "Get out of the way! Get out of the way!" I mean, she's screaming at the TV for the fans to move. She's so upset.

   12. TPTadej Pogačar38:18

       But I, I think they help. I think they help. I think when-

   13. PAPeter Attia38:22

       So I was gonna say the opposite because I put, I try to put myself in a cyclist's shoes, and I feel like I would subconsciously be holding back a little bit for fear of hitting them, or not, not, not that you're worried about hitting them, but worried about falling because you're gonna-

   14. TPTadej Pogačar38:36

       Yeah, you do sometimes, uh, like let off the throttle a, a little bit, especially, like, if you attack or something and you're in the zone, you feel like you're pushing all, all the watts that you can. But then when you see the fans, you don't, I don't know, you maybe let off a little bit, but it's still high power, I would say. But also because, uh, when the adrenaline-

   15. PAPeter Attia38:59

       But the cheering is just-

   16. TPTadej Pogačar39:00

       The adrenaline is so high, and the noise is, yeah, incredible. The noise is so loud and you're just, you're just riding and you don't actually lose any momentum, and yeah, you just, you just go. It's, it's crazy. It's hard to describe. [laughs]

   17. PAPeter Attia39:18

       I, I can't imagine actually. It looks like one of the craziest things, um, I, I've ever seen. Um, and I, I, yeah. So [laughs] this year in The Tour, I was very surprised that certain commentators were almost expressing disappointment when you were winning stages after you had already secured the yellow jersey. Did any of that make it to you? And if so, did, did you, did, does that, does that mean anything to you that people are saying, "He, he shouldn't be winning so much"?

   18. TPTadej Pogačar39:47

       I actually don't see so many people saying, "He shouldn't win so much." Okay, the, the ones that they hate me, they will s- they will say that, but obviously they hold something against me, no?

   19. PAPeter Attia39:58

       Yeah.

   20. TPTadej Pogačar39:59

       It's normal. But, like, even the people that are neutral and this don't say it and that I should hold back, I shouldn't win so much. It's just, uh, the media and the commentators and journalists, they li- they like to, they like to say these things just so there's a-

   21. PAPeter Attia40:16

       Have something controversial to say.

   22. TPTadej Pogačar40:18

       Yeah. Uh, but I really don't see so much, uh, yeah, controversy in this because also for me, uh, in some stages, a lot of stages, I count, I count the other day how many stages. I win 12 stages in Grand Tours this year, and I think we control to win, and that I won was seven stages. So it's just a little bit more than half, no? So it's not so bad. [laughs]

   23. PAPeter Attia40:46

       Do you even think about, um, equaling or bettering the, the, the mark now of, of Merckx and Cavendish in, in Tour stage wins?

   24. TPTadej Pogačar40:56

       I don't want to think so much ahead. Uh, just, yeah, just because you never know when is your last win, no?

   25. PAPeter Attia41:04

       Yeah.

   26. TPTadej Pogačar41:04

       That's why you also don't just-

   27. PAPeter Attia41:05

       That's why you take every win.

   28. TPTadej Pogačar41:07

       Yeah.

   29. PAPeter Attia41:07

       Yeah.

   30. TPTadej Pogačar41:07

       You don't just... If it's there, you take it, no? If you enjoy and you feel good, you go for the stage, you, you win, no? Um, unless is there some other reason. Um, but yeah, I mean, 36 or how much? 35?
10. 45:02 – 49:44

    Training in the off-season

    1. TPTadej Pogačar45:02

       do this power.

    2. PAPeter Attia45:03

       You mentioned that you did some more strength work in the off-season coming into '24 as part of the reason why you seem even stronger than before, which is hard to imagine. Uh, were you doing any, uh, strength training for your legs? Were you doing any weights?

    3. TPTadej Pogačar45:18

       Mm, yeah, a little bit weights. Uh, I mean, I'm still doing the strength training through the, throughout the season, um, but, uh, with less weights. Um, but yeah, uh, still, uh, legs, uh, core, glutes, glutes, the, I mean, hips and this, this is super, uh, for me personally is important.

    4. PAPeter Attia45:40

       Yeah. Do you, um, not anymore, but did you ever used to, when you were growing up, run or swim or do any other endurance sports?

    5. TPTadej Pogačar45:48

       Yeah, when, um, when, uh, we were, uh, younger in, in our team in Ljubljana, um, in the winter we were running, uh, up the mountain, uh, like three, four times per week. Uh, and after school we, we had meeting, training meeting, and, uh, we go this, uh, mountain that was close by, and we can, we go like two, three times up, down, and, uh, that was it. Uh, we swam also a few years, one time per week, um, for one hour or something. So yeah, we tried, uh, different sports in the winter, and cross-country skiing, this is my favorite.

    6. PAPeter Attia46:29

       Mm.

    7. TPTadej Pogačar46:29

       And, uh, yeah, running on the flat not so much, but now I try, um, in the last two years I tried to, to put running also into off-season.

    8. PAPeter Attia46:40

       Really?

    9. TPTadej Pogačar46:40

       I tried to start in off-season and I tried to keep it, uh, as long as possible into season, but, uh, it didn't work out this year, this year. [laughs]

    10. PAPeter Attia46:48

        So in your off-season, what is the most days you'll go without being on a bike at all? No stationary bike, no outdoors.

    11. TPTadej Pogačar46:56

        Well, stationary bike is no go for me anyway, especially in off-season. I don't do it. Uh, but, uh, yeah, I don't know. We have a team camp in UAE. It's like six days. But, uh, yeah, last year for example, we went with the boys, run together in, uh, in Abu Dhabi, uh, two times and, uh, playing paddle.

    12. PAPeter Attia47:19

        Mm-hmm.

    13. TPTadej Pogačar47:19

        Something so... And then going off to vacation. And then on vacation you get bored, you go for a run or playing paddle or whatever again, or swimming. And, uh, I don't really have, uh, I, I, I cannot say that I do two weeks without a bike or without any training at all. But, uh, because I really enjoy doing other stuff and other sports. So yeah, maybe three days doing nothing, then one day you do something, and then maybe three days again nothing. And, you know. But then mid-November, always starting on a bike, road bike again.

    14. PAPeter Attia47:59

        How old were you when you realized you were gonna be or when you knew you wanted to be a professional cyclist?

    15. TPTadej Pogačar48:05

        I think when, uh, I was a junior, uh, so, uh, six- 16, 17 years, 17 years old when I think, when I thought that I have a chance to, to be professional, to be in the WorldTour team. But then, uh, yeah, second year juniors, uh, I realized that I can definitely be in WorldTour. And then when I come to under 23, then, uh, I already signed with UAE team pre-contract for, uh, for, uh, 2019, so two years after. Yeah.

    16. PAPeter Attia48:44

        Well, Tadej, I, I have a million more questions I could ask you, but I know you've got a team meeting shortly. I wanna make sure you get to that on time. I wanna make sure you get a good dinner.

    17. TPTadej Pogačar48:51

        Thank you. [laughs]

    18. PAPeter Attia48:52

        And have a great race tomorrow. And above all else, I mean, really we're just... You know, I think everybody's kind of excited to, to see you at the Worlds in a couple of weeks. And, uh, uh, not, again, not to put pressure on you, but just so people understand the significance of that, to be able to win two Grand Tours in a year is really unprecedented. Um, i- if there's a chance to add a, a world title to that, it's, it's kind of unbelievable. And it, and, and, and at the other end of that, you know, should it not happen this year, given that you're, you're, you're not yet 26, I, I think, um, most people would take the bet that you're gonna have another shot at that.

    19. TPTadej Pogačar49:26

        Yeah, but the sooner we get it over-

    20. PAPeter Attia49:27

        [laughs]

    21. TPTadej Pogačar49:28

        ... the better it is.

    22. PAPeter Attia49:29

        Yeah.

    23. TPTadej Pogačar49:29

        There is no more pressure.

    24. PAPeter Attia49:31

        Yeah. I love it. Well, thank you, Tadej.

    25. TPTadej Pogačar49:33

        Thank you so much. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 49:44