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Peter Attia MDPeter Attia MD

341 - Overcoming insomnia: improving sleep hygiene and treating disordered sleep with CBT-I

Ashley Mason is a clinical psychologist and an associate professor at UCSF, where she leads the Sleep, Eating, and Affect (SEA) Laboratory. In this episode, Ashley provides a masterclass on cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia (CBT-I), detailing techniques like time in bed restriction, stimulus control, and cognitive restructuring to improve sleep. She explains how to manage racing thoughts and anxiety, optimize sleep environments, and use practical tools like sleep diaries to track progress. She also offers detailed guidance on sleep hygiene; explores the impact of temperature regulation, blue light exposure, and bedtime routines; and offers guidance on finding a CBT-I therapist, along with sharing practical steps you can take on your own before seeking professional help. View show notes here: https://bit.ly/4bTivQs Become a member to receive exclusive content: https://peterattiamd.com/subscribe/ Sign up to receive Peter's email newsletter: https://peterattiamd.com/newsletter/ We discuss: 0:00:00 - Intro 0:01:35 - Defining insomnia: diagnosis, prevalence, and misconceptions 0:07:15 - How insomnia develops, and breaking the cycle with cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia (CBT-I) 0:11:39 - The different types of insomnia, and the impact of anxiety, hydration, temperature, and more on sleep 0:21:16 - The core principles of cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) and how CBT-I is used to treat insomnia 0:32:37 - Implementing CBT-I: time in bed restriction, sleep scheduling, and the effect of napping 0:43:52 - Navigating family and partner sleep schedules, falling asleep on the couch, sleep chronotypes, and more [39:45]; 0:49:49 - Key aspects of sleep hygiene: temperature, light exposure, and circadian rhythm disruptions 0:58:55 - Blue light and mental stimulation before bed, and the utility of A-B testing sleep habits 1:04:30 - Other simple interventions that may improve sleep 1:10:20 - Ashley’s view on relaxation techniques and mindfulness-based practices 1:12:57 - The effectiveness of CBT-I, the role of sleep trackers, and best practices for managing nighttime awakenings 1:26:27 - Guidance on intake of food and alcohol for good sleep 1:32:29 - Reframing thoughts and nighttime anxiety to reduce sleep disruptions 1:37:37 - Ashley’s take on sleep supplements like melatonin 1:51:45 - How to safely taper off sleep medications like benzos and Ambien 1:51:46 - Sleep problems that need to be addressed before CBT-I can be implemented 1:53:45 - The importance of prioritizing a consistent wake-up time over a fixed bedtime for better sleep regulation 1:59:23 - Process S and Process C: the science of sleep pressure and circadian rhythms 2:02:07 - How exercise too close to bedtime may impact sleep 2:05:21 - The structure and variability of CBT-I, Ashley’s approach, and tips for finding a therapist 2:11:58 - The effect of sauna and cold plunge before bed on sleep quality 2:14:32 - Key takeaways on CBT-I, and why no one should have to suffer from insomnia -------- About: The Peter Attia Drive is a deep-dive podcast focusing on maximizing longevity, and all that goes into that from physical to cognitive to emotional health. With over 90 million episodes downloaded, it features topics including exercise, nutritional biochemistry, cardiovascular disease, Alzheimer’s disease, cancer, mental health, and much more. Peter Attia is the founder of Early Medical, a medical practice that applies the principles of Medicine 3.0 to patients with the goal of lengthening their lifespan and simultaneously improving their healthspan. Learn more: https://peterattiamd.com Connect with Peter on: Facebook: http://bit.ly/PeterAttiaMDFB Twitter: http://bit.ly/PeterAttiaMDTW Instagram: http://bit.ly/PeterAttiaMDIG Subscribe to The Drive: Apple Podcast: http://bit.ly/TheDriveApplePodcasts Overcast: http://bit.ly/TheDriveOvercast Spotify: http://bit.ly/TheDriveSpotify Google Podcasts: http://bit.ly/TheDriveGoogle Disclaimer: This podcast is for general informational purposes only and does not constitute the practice of medicine, nursing, or other professional healthcare services, including the giving of medical advice. No doctor-patient relationship is formed. The use of this information and the materials linked to this podcast is at the user's own risk. The content on this podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Users should not disregard or delay in obtaining medical advice for any medical condition they have, and they should seek the assistance of their healthcare professionals for any such conditions. I take conflicts of interest very seriously. For all of my disclosures and the companies I invest in or advise, please visit my website where I keep an up-to-date and active list of such companies. For a full list of our registered and unregistered trademarks, trade names, and service marks, please review our Terms of Use: https://peterattiamd.com/terms-of-use/

Peter AttiahostAshley Masonguest
Mar 24, 20252h 21mWatch on YouTube ↗

At a glance

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

Ashley Mason Explains How CBT-I Treats Insomnia Without Medication

  1. Mason describes insomnia as a clinical diagnosis affecting roughly 5 to 10 percent of adults at any moment, usually episodic, and perpetuated by coping behaviors rather than the original trigger.
  2. CBT-I rests on stimulus control (bed only for sleep and sex), time in bed restriction, cognitive techniques like thought records and scheduled worry time, relaxation, and sleep hygiene, with Mason adding her own wake-time method.
  3. Mason offers low-hanging sleep hygiene fixes: cotton bedding and a cool room, warm hands and feet, no caffeine after 11 AM (including decaf), no eating within three hours of bed, and A-B testing changes for two weeks.
  4. She discusses supplements and sleep medications, advising people to come off melatonin and other supplements, stabilizing patients on a single consistent dose, and tapering very slowly in tiny increments with the prescriber's involvement.
  5. Mason reports CBT-I remission for about 50 percent and meaningful improvement for about 70 percent when done well, says failure mostly comes from non-adherence, and points to telehealth, a directory, and a self-guided workbook to get past long waitlists.

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

5 ideas

Insomnia is kept going by coping behaviors, not the original trigger

Mason says events like job loss or divorce precipitate insomnia, but habits such as napping, using Ambien, or scrolling in bed persist, so CBT-I targets current behavior rather than the cause.

A consistent wake time matters more than a fixed bedtime

Mason says you can anchor wake time with an alarm but cannot force sleep onset, and that for some patients simply fixing the wake time and stopping naps for a week resolves much of the problem.

Time in bed is matched to actual sleep, then expanded gradually

Mason sets a bedtime from sleep diary data plus 30 minutes, and if sleep efficiency is above 85 percent she moves bedtime earlier by 15 minutes weekly; five and a half hours is about the floor.

Scheduling worry during the day reduces nighttime rumination

Mason says unaddressed stress will demand attention at night, so patients schedule an hour of worry time daily, which clears the day and the pillow time.

Small environmental changes can have large effects

Mason cites removing down comforters for cotton blankets, warming cold hands and feet, wearing an eye mask, using orange-lens glasses before bed, and cutting caffeine by 11 AM without reducing the amount.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

I always tell patients, "If you don't deal with what's causing you stress or anxiety during the day, it's going to demand to be dealt with in the middle of the night."

— Ashley Mason

Melatonin's like the guy at the start of the race, right? He's the guy with the gun. He fires the gun. He doesn't have a car in the race. He's not, like, helping you stay asleep. He's telling you when to start the thing.

— Ashley Mason

I can make you wake up at any time by setting a very loud alarm. I can anchor you into your day with a wake-up time, and that can be consistent every single day. I cannot wave a magic wand and make you fall asleep at the same time every day.

— Ashley Mason

You've been suffering for months or years. Now you're gonna suffer for five weeks. You're gonna do it my way, right? And if you don't like it, you can go back to your way.

— Ashley Mason

Even if you don't know what caused your insomnia, you can do this treatment. And don't wait. There's never gonna feel like a good time to do it. Now is the best time.

— Ashley Mason

Insomnia definition and prevalencePredisposing, precipitating, and perpetuating factorsStimulus control and time in bed restrictionScheduled worry time and thought recordsSleep hygiene: temperature, light, caffeineMelatonin and sleep medication taperingFinding CBT-I providers and self-guided options

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