414 ‒ Resistance training as we age: exercise selection, training intensity, and much more

1. 0:00 – 0:11

   Intro

   1. PAPeter Attia0:00

      [upbeat music] Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Drive podcast. I'm your host, Peter Attia. [upbeat music]

2. 0:11 – 9:45

   Jeff’s passion as an educator and the path that led him to build his YouTube channel

   1. PAPeter Attia0:11

      Jeff, man, thank you again for coming back to Austin. So good to see you again.

   2. JCJeff Cavaliere0:15

      I'm super happy to be back here.

   3. PAPeter Attia0:16

      You've been here in the heat. You've been here in the cool. It's all great, right?

   4. JCJeff Cavaliere0:20

      It's a beautiful place. We were talking to the, uh, driver on the way over, and he, uh... I said, "Where's the one place in Texas that I should, if, if you w- were to choose one place?" He says, "Honestly, Austin, because it offers the most diverse opportunities, and not just, you know, the nightlife, but it has the c- the scenery, the culture." So I love it.

   5. PAPeter Attia0:38

      Awesome. We'll try to get you to move here.

   6. JCJeff Cavaliere0:39

      Yeah. [laughs]

   7. PAPeter Attia0:40

      [laughs] Um, well, there's a lot I wanna chat about with you today. Um, and I also realize that s- for some people listening or watching right now, they might not know a lot about you. Um, so maybe just briefly t- tell, tell us a little bit about, uh, your, your journey to, to here. Um, we didn't talk about it really on the roundtable, so maybe just explain a little bit about how you found your way to doing what you're doing right now.

   8. JCJeff Cavaliere1:07

      Sure. So I think grow- growing up, I always wanted to get ultimately involved in some career where I could help people or educate, 'cause I always loved doing that. My father was a doctor. I had, uh, aspirations at one point, as the third kid of three, to maybe become a doctor 'cause no one else had. But, uh, for me, I always had this other love of sports, though, too. So if I could figure out a way that I could get into working with athletes at the same time that I could help people, not just ath- athletes, 'cause that's a smaller population, that I would find, I, I would feel would be my perfect fit. Well, I started being able to, uh, work strictly with athletes as I got a job with the New York Mets. I'm a physical, physical therapist. I was their head physical therapist for, uh, three seasons, and then left to pursue whatever this was ultimately going to become. But I, I started pretty early making videos for YouTube, educational videos for YouTube, uh, focused on trying to take the lessons that I learned from training with top-level athletes and apply them to people who are never gonna get paid to do this, were never gonna get a pro contract, but just wanted to be able to benefit from v- what they need to focus on to perform at such a high level, 'cause I think we all have a lot more we can do if we focus on the right things. And I started off with a couple videos, and the next thing you knew, a couple more, you know, subscribers, and I saw that there was an opportunity to continue to pursue that path, and I did. And ultimately, here we are now, almost 15 million subscribers, uh, doing what I've done since day one, which is just trying to use the platform to educate and empower people with the techniques and strategies to... from both the realms of rehab, as a physical therapist, and strength and conditioning, as w- my other role was with the Mets. Because to me, they're all one continuum. Like, if you're hurt, you're just less functional at the moment. But as you become able to get higher and higher levels of function, you can get to e- extreme levels of function and capabilities, and that's athleticism.

   9. PAPeter Attia3:07

      And so when... What year did you start the channel in earnest?

   10. JCJeff Cavaliere3:10

       2009 is when I actually started to make content for it. My, my years with the Mets were 2006, '07, and '08.

   11. PAPeter Attia3:16

       When you think about the evolution of the channel, right? There's so much content on there. Um, how do you think about that from the standpoint of injury prevention, um, to a lot of the stuff that I actually, uh, probably discovered you maybe on Instagram a few years ago, maybe a little longer than that. I've been following you for quite a while. Um, but a lot of it is on, honestly, like, why, why is it that when you're doing a lat pull-down, you're not getting the right engagement?

   12. JCJeff Cavaliere3:43

       Yeah.

   13. PAPeter Attia3:43

       Like, this is geared towards function and hypertrophy, as you said. Like, this is not about an injury. This is about-

   14. JCJeff Cavaliere3:48

       Yeah

   15. PAPeter Attia3:48

       ... making progress. Um, how... Has the, has that been an evolution for you, or have you always provided information on that continuum?

   16. JCJeff Cavaliere3:55

       I've always provided people information on that continuum because I feel that's the part where my skill as a physical therapist comes in. Because if you're in a rehab setting and somebody comes to you with whatever ailment they have at the moment and they need help, you will never be able to follow the playbook as instructed or as written or as the protocol comes, you know, that says, "This is what you're doing one week later, two weeks later, three weeks post-op," whatever. Something always comes up where that individual has something that doesn't feel right, or they don't have the range of motion that's expected, or something is preventing the playbook from being able to be executed. That's where you need to be flexible enough to be able to say, "Well, what... Okay, try this instead." Even it could just be simply moving your leg further out into abduction to then go do a leg lift. All of a sudden, pain-free motion again. They're able to do the ac- the activity. So i- if you don't have that ability to have a lot of flexibility in your approach, then I don't think you can effectively perform a rehab on somebody. It's no different in weight training and strength training. Like, the, not every exercise will feel great for every person or feel as effective as it should. There's tips that you can give them to increase the, the stimulus that you're feeling, and that might work for almost everybody, but there's still gonna be people who don't have that, you know, effect with the exercise they're doing, so you need to find exercise number two or three. And the beautiful thing about strength and conditioning is there's never just one option. There's usually, like, hundreds of options to, to, to go to. So if you're diverse in your, in your playbook, you're, you're gonna be able to do that. So I think over the years, my ability to, to navigate even similar issues. I've covered, I've done 1,700 videos at this point. [laughs] I mean, we've covered a lot of the same issues twice, but coming at it from a different angle and making it click for somebody for the first time because we're explaining it slightly differently is probably where the, the power is.

   17. PAPeter Attia5:52

       You've probably observed the same thing that many people have observed, which is, um, some combination of the human attention span appears to be getting shorter and shorter, and platforms seem to recognize that-

   18. JCJeff Cavaliere6:05

       Yeah

   19. PAPeter Attia6:05

       ... and prioritize, uh, shorter and shorter content. Now- I, I think I'm a bit of an unusual person in that I don't like short-form content. I really like long-form content. I like watching a 20-minute video where I will learn something in depth that's at the, you know, the master's level-

   20. JCJeff Cavaliere6:24

       Yeah

   21. PAPeter Attia6:24

       ... uh, as opposed to, uh, a one-minute video that just, you know, shows me something sort of at a superficial level that obviously even if it's correct, it's, it's incomplete. Um, how has your, uh, ability to provide content evolved in that environment, and, and are you still making a lot of long-form content? And, and how have you basically struggled with trying to educate people as much as you can, but understanding that your opportunity to do so, like every one of us-

   22. JCJeff Cavaliere6:56

       Yeah

   23. PAPeter Attia6:56

       ... who's trying to educate people, is, is, you know, it's narrowing.

   24. JCJeff Cavaliere6:59

       It's been a, a, a huge challenge for me personally, and I think even for the obtaining the information that I do like to obtain, 'cause like you, I like to find that long-form content. I like to dive deep. I, I have no problem taking a, a three-hour podcast or even just a 40-minute video and chunking it down into sessions so that I can watch 10 minutes now and then watch 10 minutes again later. I have no problem with that. I- what I don't like is the watering down or the thinning out of the content specifically because it needs to fit this format, this short-form format. And what you're forced to do as an educator is to pick and choose the things that you think are gonna be the, the most impactful, but you're not really even given the, the, the opportunity to explain why. And so I'll give you a great soundbite, but is the soundbite really valuable if you don't also understand why? 'Cause unless you remember or memorize that soundbite and can implement whatever the soundbite's telling you to do, if you forget the why, then you may never be able to actually understand why you're doing what you were told. And that is why I've always done long-form content, because I wanna have the opportunity to explain the, you know, to explain. We have a joke w- uh, internally at my company where they say, "Sets and reps, please," 'cause that's what people literally will say [laughs]

   25. PAPeter Attia8:18

       [laughs]

   26. JCJeff Cavaliere8:18

       ... in comments. They, like, they'll bypass the entire explanation of why, which again, I feel is not just... I'm not trying to make a long video. I'm trying to give you the information that you need to be able to implement this, not just on whatever I'm teaching you in that video, but ev- other things, too. I... "Sets and reps, please," is basically the punchline to, like, I don't wanna hear any of that. I just wanna know, tell me the what. And I struggle. I still struggle, but I, I, I will always continue to make long-form content. Now, we've had to make short-form content. I've had to take clips from these longer videos and convert them into things that we can present in short-form f- uh, format. I have had to make them more intentionally engaging in the first three seconds, because I know that is the attention span of the person who's about ready to flip that thumb one more time and skip right past me, to have something that's gonna catch their eye just so that I can g- I have the opportunity to teach them whatever I think is gonna be valuable. I think that's a game that kinda sucks, to be honest with you, but it's sort of part of what social media is evolving into.

   27. PAPeter Attia9:23

       Well, the good news is, I don't know how many minutes we're into this discussion, probably 10 or so.

   28. JCJeff Cavaliere9:27

       [laughs]

   29. PAPeter Attia9:27

       Um, I can assure you that any of the people that need to, um, get hooked in the first three seconds are not only gone from this-

   30. JCJeff Cavaliere9:34

       [laughs] Good
3. 9:45 – 20:26

   Jeff’s injury history and how he overcomes injury in training

   1. PAPeter Attia9:45

      in depth. Um, okay. Let's start with... Well, one other kind of personal question that I think helps sets the, set the stage, Jeff, is, um, help people understand your own personal injury history, right? I mean, we all... You don't get to be in your 50s like we are without a lot of stripes on your back.

   2. JCJeff Cavaliere10:03

      Yeah.

   3. PAPeter Attia10:04

      And, and I think that can also explain sort of where you're coming from. So I know of at least two injuries you've had.

   4. JCJeff Cavaliere10:10

      Mm-hmm.

   5. PAPeter Attia10:10

      You've probably had more. Like, what are, what are some of the major sports injuries, training injuries that you've experienced?

   6. JCJeff Cavaliere10:15

      The most significant injuries that I deal with on a daily basis are probably a result of poor training advice, uh, overzealous attempts to become something that I wasn't, you know, in my teens and early 20s in terms of being a l- a, a, a lifter or a bodybuilder. And most of all, not correcting some of the issues that I knew were there, but I felt were, like, old man issues when I was 20. So for instance, I have incredibly flat feet. If I took my shoes off now and stood, you'd think I have flippers on my feet. That is how bad they are. There's no arch in my feet. Knowing now what the implications of that could be with every single step you take being, having to be, the consequences of those absorbed somewhere else up the kinetic chain, my knees, my hips, my back, I would have done something back then to become a lot more diligent with finding the right orthotic, with actually staying true to wearing the damn thing, you know, not taking it out 'cause it was uncomfortable in one shoe or it wasn't really... You know, I couldn't wear my favorite shoes because of it. So that had a lot of repercussions on my, my knees for, that I feel every day now still. Every day. Now, there's things that I've been able to do and work around, which we can talk about, uh, 'cause I believe you should be training no matter what your pains are. There's ways to train around them. But I have been able to navigate that. Now, the other one that I significantly deal with is in my right shoulder, torn labrum, 50% tear of my supraspinatus rotator cuff, degeneration in that shoulder as a result of the torn la- labrum. You know, your labrum is basically there to provide a nice level of support inside the joint. When you tear that, and that bo- and that bone is able to kind of move around a lot more freely than it should without the stability, you can get a lot more of accelerated arthritis and de- degeneration in that shoulder. I was told that I had the shoulder of an 80-year-old person, so I'm only 50. That's a little disconcerting. But- Right now, that doesn't actually hurt. So I'm able to do almost anything in the gym that's not unwise because I've, I've learned how to sort of train around those things. But it's always gonna be persistent there.

   7. PAPeter Attia12:25

      To be clear, you have a 50% labral tear, and you, independent of that, tore the rotator cuff.

   8. JCJeff Cavaliere12:32

      Yes.

   9. PAPeter Attia12:33

      And you have at least a 50% tear in, did you say infraspinatus or supraspinatus?

   10. JCJeff Cavaliere12:37

       Supraspinatus.

   11. PAPeter Attia12:38

       Um, and the other three muscles are... Do you know those-

   12. JCJeff Cavaliere12:40

       They're, they should be. They're, they're-

   13. PAPeter Attia12:41

       They're okay

   14. JCJeff Cavaliere12:42

       ... pretty intact, yeah.

   15. PAPeter Attia12:43

       And how many years ago was that?

   16. JCJeff Cavaliere12:44

       Um, so that was actually the funny, the, the funny part about my, uh, that injury, because that, I've told this story before, that was on a dare on, on, on a bet.

   17. PAPeter Attia12:53

       Oh, I know this story.

   18. JCJeff Cavaliere12:54

       Yeah.

   19. PAPeter Attia12:54

       Yeah.

   20. JCJeff Cavaliere12:54

       So I, I, I, I was coaching with the New York Mets, and it was my second year with them, and so I was very comfortable around the guys at that point. We're definitely would be known to, to ride e- each other's weak points and, and where their insecurities would be, and I think they all knew I wanted to be an athlete one day. I wish I was the, the baseball player on the other side, you know, in uniform. But I picked up a ball one day, and I was standing next to one of our, uh, all-star outfielders, and I said to him, just casually, 'cause we used to do our conditioning on the, out in right field. I said, "You know what's crazy? It doesn't look that far from here to third base. It just doesn't." And he's like, "Really?" And he hands me the ball, and he goes, "Why don't you try throwing it there?" [laughs] I said, "It's not, it's not that far."

   21. PAPeter Attia13:37

       And how close are you to the wall?

   22. JCJeff Cavaliere13:38

       Uh, oh, we're on the warning track, so just, just in front of the warning track. So it, you know, it, but it-

   23. PAPeter Attia13:43

       See, to me, it looks far as hell-

   24. JCJeff Cavaliere13:45

       Yeah. [laughs]

   25. PAPeter Attia13:45

       ... by the way, but okay.

   26. JCJeff Cavaliere13:46

       To me, it didn't look so bad. I, I mean, maybe again, I was-

   27. PAPeter Attia13:48

       No, but I think when you're on the field, it's different.

   28. JCJeff Cavaliere13:50

       It is different.

   29. PAPeter Attia13:51

       Yeah, yeah.

   30. JCJeff Cavaliere13:51

       It's definitely different. The, things look a little closer. So I, uh, [laughs] he handed me the ball. I said, "What do I get if I do it?" He says, "1,000 bucks." And so I said, "All right, give it to me." And I basically crow hopped about three steps or so. I backed up a little bit, crow hopped, threw it. As soon as I let it go, I don't even remember seeing the ball land, but I'm, I think it was somewhere around second base that it landed and bounced and, and rolled pathetically towards third base. I, I, uh, I felt like a zipper-like pain in my shoulder, and I knew that I had just screwed up. And, uh, it was pretty, pretty debilitating for the, you know, the next couple weeks in terms of that really acute injury, but then I was able to... Of course, I, I still had to go to work every day and, but there was a lot of laughing that went on at my expense.
4. 20:26 – 25:38

   Qualities of great athletes and the tragedy of injury

   1. PAPeter Attia20:26

      When you look at some of the, the greats, right, who... Like, so let's take Bo Jackson as an example and, and obviously for you and I, I mean, that's like we, we can remember every single play he ever had.

   2. JCJeff Cavaliere20:35

      Yeah.

   3. PAPeter Attia20:35

      I realize that-

   4. JCJeff Cavaliere20:36

      Of course

   5. PAPeter Attia20:36

      ... there are some people maybe too young to remember what it was like to watch Bo Jackson. But, but one never got the impression that Bo was, got that way through training. Like, he literally just seemed like he, I don't know, was somehow born knowing how to do what he did. Is that because his natural innate talent was around the mechanics of throwing, or do you think that there are innate differences in the structure of the rotator cuff that would enable him to get away with a, a higher torqued position?

   6. JCJeff Cavaliere21:09

      I think that the idea that athletes are born is not entirely accurate, and I also think that athletes are made is not entirely accurate. I don't think that people who are unathletic can achieve the highest levels of a- athleticism simply by spending the 20,000 hours.

   7. PAPeter Attia21:28

      Sure.

   8. JCJeff Cavaliere21:28

      Is that right? And, and vice versa. So when you look at a guy like Bo Jackson, like these outliers as just tremendous athletes, they're always gonna have characteristics that make them the outlier. They're gonna have higher percentage of Type 2 fibers. They're gonna have... 'Cause we have a lot of muscles where we have distribution of Type 1 and Type 2, slow twitch, fast twitch. They're gonna be a lot more twitchy, is what we say. Um, they're gonna have stronger mind-muscle connection, so when they go to do something, the reason why it looks so easy when they pick something up for the first time is that the coordination capa- requirements that are, that are tough for a lot of us, right? Even just getting on a bike and trying to coordinate that. They, they pick these things up so easily, most of all because I think they have great neuromuscular efficiency. They can do what they're telling their muscles to do. And I believe they have amazing proprioception, which is another s- perception of your body's ability, your body's position in space or really what your joint's positioning is in space, that a lot of us have to learn and practice and get good at. They have inherently great proprioceptive intelligence. I think we, when you can put all those things together and then you have someone who's actually very fast, 'cause speed isn't something everybody has either. When they're fast, when they're explosive, twitchy, as I said, strong, now you're able to do things. And, and again, when you can pick these skills up so quickly, you're able to do things that look almost effortless that others would, would, would require a lot of effort to even make it look like they're, they're, they're doing it right, let alone doing it at the level that they're doing it. So I mean, Bo Jackson, he, he was a once in a lifetime athlete. He really was. He was, uh... It's just a- amazing how short his career was because of injury, and that's another thing. No matter who you are, you might, you might recover faster because of some of the things we talked about, but injury is injury, right? Any injury can happen to anybody at any time, especially in a contact sport like that where-

   9. PAPeter Attia23:34

      But his was such a freak injury, too.

   10. JCJeff Cavaliere23:36

       Awful.

   11. PAPeter Attia23:36

       And, um, again, you don't see that injury a lot, right? Like, if you said, "Oh, it was a, you know, it was a, uh, an ACL-"

   12. JCJeff Cavaliere23:43

       Yeah, yeah

   13. PAPeter Attia23:44

       ... or something like that, you'd say, "Oh, yeah, yeah, you know, that's a pretty..." But, but to, to have [laughs] the avascular necrosis of a hip that, you know, comes out of s- I mean, that's just-

   14. JCJeff Cavaliere23:52

       Even like-

   15. PAPeter Attia23:53

       It's crazy

   16. JCJeff Cavaliere23:53

       ... even, even not knowing, 'cause I remember actually when that happened, and, you know, he went down, he got injured, and what it could've been at that time could've been a bunch of different things. But when it was determined, okay, it's a hip fracture. But then to, then to heal that way and to heal improperly and then he develops avascular necrosis, that's just sort of tragic, especially as a sports fan to see, like, that have to happen to him. 'Cause it could've healed normally, but it, it just didn't, and so that's, that's, that's somewhat tragic. Um, uh, o- one of my best friends from the Mets, uh, David Wright, amazingly talented All-Star, perennial All-Star, he was fielding a ground ball, um- at third base coming in, and, uh, Carlos Lee, Big they called him, like, El Caballo or something like big, big guy, came down the line and, and collided with him, and he broke his back. He had a, uh, um, a transverse, uh, uh, fracture of his lumbar spine. It healed improperly. It basically healed with a lot of bony spur formation. Now he gets a lot of compression on the, on the, the, uh, the nerves there. Felt, feels like a hamstring injury the following year because he's getting burning down the leg, but it's not the hamstring that's causing the problem. And ultimately, that, that led to, uh, ultimately to his retirement or to him not being able to play the game that he was. He was, he was a surefire Hall of Famer, surefire Hall of Famer, and he, from a freak accident that just continued to cascade in terms of its, its, uh, healing gone, gone wrong, basically took him out of the game early. So some of the greatest athletes we've ever seen, uh, can still be brought down by injuries and, and it's tragic when it happens 'cause

5. 25:38 – 29:56

   Tom Brady—an example of the value of pliability and consistency

   1. JCJeff Cavaliere25:38

      it has so much-

   2. PAPeter Attia25:39

      So when you see athletes that combine the best of both worlds, which is to say they, they have the skill to be all-stars-

   3. JCJeff Cavaliere25:45

      Mm-hmm

   4. PAPeter Attia25:45

      ... but then they also end up having the career longevity to, to realize that dream, and obviously, I, I can't think of a greater example than Tom Brady-

   5. JCJeff Cavaliere25:53

      Sure

   6. PAPeter Attia25:53

      ... um, who, you know, it always annoys the hell out of me when people talk about his lack of athleticism. I mean, it's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

   7. JCJeff Cavaliere25:59

      Yeah, yeah.

   8. PAPeter Attia25:59

      Right? [laughs] Like, the guy, the guy's a better athlete than anyone you've ever seen.

   9. JCJeff Cavaliere26:03

      Right, right. Let-

   10. PAPeter Attia26:04

       Okay.

   11. JCJeff Cavaliere26:04

       Right.

   12. PAPeter Attia26:04

       So let's forget that. Um, but again, what also allows Tom to go down in history as the greatest football player in the history of the sport is that he played so long.

   13. JCJeff Cavaliere26:14

       Yeah.

   14. PAPeter Attia26:14

       And that he did so relatively injury-free. I mean, he had an ACL injury that didn't derail him at all.

   15. JCJeff Cavaliere26:18

       Mm-hmm.

   16. PAPeter Attia26:18

       Missed a year. And so when you, when you think about something like that, now Tom is one of the most deliberate people in the world when it comes to how he thinks about conditioning his body. Um, and one of the things he talks about a lot is, is pliability.

   17. JCJeff Cavaliere26:33

       Yeah.

   18. PAPeter Attia26:33

       Right? And he talks about how, at least at his position, it's less important how strong he is. It's more important about, uh, it's more important how pliable he is. How trainable do you think that is across the board?

   19. JCJeff Cavaliere26:43

       I think it's tr- I think it's trainable. I think it's, it's basically sometimes avoiding some of the things that take away pliability. So if you're focused on just strength and just building as big muscles as you possibly can, then you're going to be trading off some of the elasticity of that muscle. So being able to build to a certain point or try to create as much growth as possible to a point where you're still able to functionally use that muscle and to have the elasticity in that, so that means you still have to work on your flexibility. You still have to work on your mobility. I, I hate the term muscle-bound 'cause it just sounds like such a, a, a cliché from the old days, but that is really essentially what's happening. When you become muscle-bound, you're not also working in the elements of flexibility and mobility, and I think Tom Brady has always done that. He's never been worried about being, uh, Mr. Olympia, you know? It wasn't his physique that was leading his success on the field. It was-

   20. PAPeter Attia27:40

       But it's, it, it hasn't been for any quarterback, and yet it still strikes me that there's something Tom is doing different than all the other quarterbacks, right? Or most of them.

   21. JCJeff Cavaliere27:49

       I mean, to me, when I think of Tom Brady, and I've actually heard this from some players, that he is the epitome of, and this is a great, 'cause this segues into anything we're talking about later on in fitness, consistency. He is the epitome of consistency. Consistency is the key that unlocks every single door when it comes to physical performance or just overall health and longevity. If you can stay consistent with what you do, then you're gonna have a lot more resilience to injury. You're gonna have that, uh, ability to focus on the things you know you need to focus on, and even if you don't like them, I don't like stretching, I hate stretching, but being able to st- show up and continue to do that, that's the consistency part of it. He, I'm sure, has so many things that he did in his preparation that weren't his favorite things, but it was never a negotiable of him not doing them. So to me, I think his superstardom and, and his legendary status comes from his consistency in doing even the things that he didn't really wanna do. I think what happens to a lot of people, and even a lot of athletes, is that they tend to, they tend to narrow down to the areas that they like the best or they, they, they perform at well, and you're never gonna be as good as you can be if you always focus on the things you do well. You have to focus on the things you don't do well at to sort of round out and fill in those gaps so that you're able to, uh, create a, an, an end product that is more, uh, fortified than, than, than not.

   22. PAPeter Attia29:19

       And that's really a lesson that goes far beyond trying to be the best player in the history of the NFL. That's kind of true for all of us, and you know, you've heard me talk about this a lot is I do want everybody to think of themselves as an athlete.

   23. JCJeff Cavaliere29:34

       Yeah.

   24. PAPeter Attia29:34

       And then the sport is, it's not football and it's not, you know, tennis or necessarily anything like that. It's just life. Life is a sport.

   25. JCJeff Cavaliere29:41

       Yeah.

   26. PAPeter Attia29:41

       Um, you know, luckily it's not as demanding a sport as, as being on a football field, but it's still a sport. Um, it's a sport where you get to define the rules. You get to define the, uh, objective of the game.

   27. JCJeff Cavaliere29:51

       Yeah.

   28. PAPeter Attia29:52

       Um, but, but if you treat it like that and then you start to adopt

6. 29:56 – 37:47

   The athlete’s mindset, how training changes in midlife, and the importance of a warm-up

   1. PAPeter Attia29:56

      an athlete's mindset, the athlete's mindset says there's a distinction between training and exercise. Training has specificity.

   2. JCJeff Cavaliere30:02

      Yeah.

   3. PAPeter Attia30:03

      Training has sometimes doing things I don't wanna do. Um, it means creating a well-balanced and structured program and, and again, I, I wanna talk about all these things with you today. Um, so let's start with the idea of transitions and stages in life.

   4. JCJeff Cavaliere30:23

      Mm.

   5. PAPeter Attia30:24

      So, um, I'm sure you feel the same way I do, but, like, we're half the men we used to be already-

   6. JCJeff Cavaliere30:30

      [laughs]

   7. PAPeter Attia30:31

      ... and we're, we're, we're, we're not even there, right? Like-

   8. JCJeff Cavaliere30:33

      Being reminded every day.

   9. PAPeter Attia30:35

      Yeah. And so sometimes people, um- I've, I've, people have, uh, you know, I've, I've said this to people and they're, they're like, "I don't know what you're talking about. Like, I feel amazing and I'm your age." And I'm like, "It's, that's great. I'm very happy for you that you do, but it's also, you didn't do half of what I did when I was younger. Like-

   10. JCJeff Cavaliere30:53

       Right

   11. PAPeter Attia30:53

       ... you were sort of a fat, out of shape-

   12. JCJeff Cavaliere30:55

       Mm-hmm

   13. PAPeter Attia30:55

       ... bump on a log until two years ago, and so that's why at 55 you feel better than you did at 53, and that's great.

   14. JCJeff Cavaliere31:04

       Yeah.

   15. PAPeter Attia31:04

       I am... Nothing makes me happier than seeing somebody who's never done anything their whole life and they're now finding their own-

   16. JCJeff Cavaliere31:10

       Yeah, Tom Brady.

   17. PAPeter Attia31:10

       That's great. But there's another subset of people like you and I who have been insanely active our whole lives-

   18. JCJeff Cavaliere31:16

       Mm-hmm

   19. PAPeter Attia31:16

       ... and we're still doing fine, but if we're being brutally honest, we're a fraction of what we used to be. We don't have the recovery, we don't have the speed, we don't have any-

   20. JCJeff Cavaliere31:23

       Yeah

   21. PAPeter Attia31:23

       ... of those things. So knowing and understanding the inevitability of some decline, how, how should people who have been active their whole life, who are showing up in their 40s, in their 50s, in their 60s with the, I don't wanna say inevitable, but the very probable wear and tear that came from doing dumb things when you were young and experiencing a decline because you're starting from a higher place? How do you think about coaching these people such that they get to 90 and they can still do everything they wanna do and, by the way, do it at the level of what we would think of as a fit 65-year-old?

   22. JCJeff Cavaliere32:05

       That's a good question. Um, first of all, I think you have to do what we've done, which is come to the realization that it isn't exactly like it was when we were younger. 'Cause some people will fight that. They'll fight the fact that things have changed. They'll fight the fact that it might require a longer warm-up than you used to do, right? Or I used to be able to do this and it, and it did, I didn't need to, um, you know. Like for instance I'll say, I used to be able to do just one quick warm-up set before getting into my working sets, so why can't I do it now? Like, I think we fight that for a while. I did fight it for a while, for sure. Like, in, probably in the l- last three to four years was my transition period to starting to f- realize and see some of these changes.

   23. PAPeter Attia32:47

       And what was the signal for you that you needed to do that?

   24. JCJeff Cavaliere32:50

       More achiness in the morning when I would wake up from training. Like, I'm okay. I'm accustomed to feeling sore when I wake up the next day. I think that's f- that makes me feel alive. I have... The soreness that I'm talking about is not joint soreness, though. I'm talking about muscle soreness. I know I worked a muscle two days ago or a day ago. But when it starts to get to be more joint feel and joint related, I know that I'm maybe not allowing myself to recover enough, or I'm doing too much at too quick of a pace, or I'm not preparing myself to do whatever I am doing and therefore I think that's the part of the warm-up that I wasn't really doing enough of. And you just have to be honest with yourself and say, "Hey, what am I not doing that I could try that is going to potentially change whatever it is I'm feeling?" I, I think you are gonna feel something, though, and that is gonna be your sign as to where you should, where you should start. And that, for me, is usually in the form of, like, either that joint soreness like I said, or too much fatigue. You know, waking up fatigued. Maybe even irritability at things that wouldn't have made you irritated before. Um, these are signs that you might wanna start looking into your recovery. And from the recovery standpoint, the, the two factors of that are what is the actual work you're doing and then what are you doing to prepare to do that work?

   25. PAPeter Attia34:11

       So, sorry, in that second category, Jeff-

   26. JCJeff Cavaliere34:13

       Yeah

   27. PAPeter Attia34:13

       ... so, so just make sure I understand that. The first category is what are the activities I'm doing-

   28. JCJeff Cavaliere34:17

       Yeah

   29. PAPeter Attia34:17

       ... to recover.

   30. JCJeff Cavaliere34:18

       Yeah.
7. 37:47 – 48:28

   Reducing risk of injury in middle age and beyond: reps in reserve, training to failure, and junk volume

   1. JCJeff Cavaliere37:47

      are you gonna do about it?

   2. PAPeter Attia37:48

      Yeah, no, it certainly will. When you think about this transition from your 40s to your 50s to your 60s, um, and I focus on that not because there aren't people listening to us who are 20 or 30, but I, I do think that, um, that there's, there's a huge cycle between that 40, 50, 60, so I wanna kind of focus there for a moment.

   3. JCJeff Cavaliere38:09

      Yeah.

   4. PAPeter Attia38:09

      Um, what do you think is the most prudent strategy for reducing risk? Is it, uh, it w- and I'm just gonna limit this to-

   5. JCJeff Cavaliere38:18

      Mm-hmm

   6. PAPeter Attia38:18

      ... resistance training for a moment.

   7. JCJeff Cavaliere38:20

      Yeah.

   8. PAPeter Attia38:20

      Is it reducing overall volume? So if I said to you, "You know, Jeff, when I was in my 30s and, and early 40s, I would be doing 25 sets per body part in the gym. Should I be taking that down to 10 to 15 sets?" Is it, um, reducing absolute weight and therefore increasing reps a little bit? So, hey, I've always trained at one to two rep in reserve, um, and I'm gonna continue to train at two rep in reserve, but that weight is actually coming down. What it's taking me to get to one to two RIR is a lower and lower weight as I age. Um, is it other... Is it frequency of training? The number of times I'll, you know, how many days that go in between training muscle groups? How, how do you think about all the potential levers a person can pull, um, to still maximize their performance while minimizing the risk of injury?

   9. JCJeff Cavaliere39:14

      That is, that is the, that is the essence of what we try to do, right? That is what we have to master. So there's a couple parts to this. The first thing, I'll give you the short answer. Of those three options, I want volume to come down. I want productive repetitions to go up. I want repetitions to actually mean something. And when I do that, that means the intensity's gonna go up, so you'll have to train harder, but I will save a lot of the junk volume that I believe just winds up wearing and tearing and cr- creating an accumulation of wear and tear. That's not only not necessary, but again, it's ultimately unproductive. So we have to look at it, though, starting from this concept of reps in reserve, and whether or not you actually prescribe to the exact reps in reserve specifications of, hey, one RIR or two RIR. Uh, some people don't train that way, but they think, they think I-

   10. PAPeter Attia40:10

       Can you explain that?

   11. JCJeff Cavaliere40:11

       Yeah. So-

   12. PAPeter Attia40:12

       I, I, I rattled it off quickly, but-

   13. JCJeff Cavaliere40:13

       Yeah

   14. PAPeter Attia40:13

       ... I wanna make sure everybody knows what I mean by that.

   15. JCJeff Cavaliere40:14

       Sure. So, so reps in reserve is essentially a measure of how hard, let's say, you've taken a set. So a zero reps in reserve is you've taken that set to full mechanical failure, where you cannot lift that weight anymore in good form. And a, a one R- RIR would basically mean that if you were to do a grinder, if you were willing to grind out one more repetition, you probably have one more repetition in you. Two to three RIR is essentially where you know you've got another one or two left in the tank, but it's still difficult, but you're stopping at that point. Nobody that was watching you from the outside would visibly really be able to tell that you've reached your maximum. Four R- RIR or more, to me, already starts to become junk volume, and it's exasperated by the fact-

   16. PAPeter Attia40:59

       Outside of a warm-up set.

   17. JCJeff Cavaliere41:00

       Yeah, outside of a warm-up. It's exasperated by the fact that we as a whole, and I'm talking about even some trainers themselves, we don't fully appreciate or have the internal scaling tuned in to measure what real effort is, and that's for a variety of reasons. I would guess that we undershoot what we're capable of doing by one to two to three repetitions often. So when you don't have this measurement of zero, what zero means, then everything else is very difficult to gauge, especially if you don't have a lot of training experience to be able to, to, to be able to feel the nuanced difference between a one or a two, or a two and a three. So to me, what I want people to do is to start at almost every opportunity training as close to mechanical failure as possible. Now, there's a few things that get in the way here. There's psychological failure. Psychological failure is not necessarily I can't mechanically lift or make my muscles contract to lift this weight again. It's I don't really feel like doing another repetition 'cause the discomfort that's caused by this repetition is something I'm not really willing to put up with. That's the difference. That, there's a big difference between that and what your muscle can actually do. So when we push ourselves past psychological failure, then we get into what we call form failure, and form failure is where things start to... You might, the, the speed of the repetition might go down. I'm okay with that. I actually advocate for slower repetitions anyway. But the speed might go down a little bit. The form might get a little loose in terms of, like, a little bit of cheating, but that's okay, too, because as long as you're, y- you're- ... properly stabilizing your, your body when you're doing it. You don't look like you're performing a different exercise. That's, that's, that's still okay, acceptable. What's not okay is joint pain. If you feel a joint pain at any, at any step of the way, you should stop because you're probably not even training the muscle at that point anymore. You're obviously putting the joints at, in, in, in the middle. And then, uh, allowing yourself to just push to that point where the exercise can't physically be completed, where the, where the, the, the exercise you're doing in a bench press, you can't move the weights anymore. That's where you stop, and that's where I believe people need to get themselves to do more often. And w- most of us either have that calibration that's not calibrated correctly, so we're not gauging that effort correctly. Even if it looks like we're doing the right things and we're accumulating the right volumes, like you said on paper, the, the signal's not there. The intensity's not there. You need to get to, to a point where you can objectively say, "Well, the signal's here 'cause I can't move this weight anymore." And the more you do that, you can take away a lot of those sets. And so even though it might be counterproductive to think, "Well, what if by training harder, I'm going to apply more stress to my body and make it harder for me to recover?" No, you're actually, because you're applying less of that junk volume, and certainly in terms of joints, less of that wear and tear. 'Cause even just raising my arm up here every single time is another, as I say, rotation on the tire. At some point, the tires on that car have to get changed. You're gonna run out of rotations on the tire. Why waste them in a repetition that is completely non-productive for, you mentioned building muscle, 'cause that is what we're trying to do in this case. We're training for hypertrophy. So if you're not pushing yourself to a point where you can stimulate those high-threshold fibers, the ones that can grow, then what are we doing? What, what are we... We're not accumulating anything that's going to build strength or hypertrophy, so therefore we're not building that resilience that we're trying to build. So objectively getting you to do more of your sets to good form failure. Not talking about ugly repetitions and, and, and losing stability of your body while you're doing it. I'm talking about good form failure. Then you can bring down those repetitions, uh, in, in those sets quite a bit, get rid of a, a lot of that volume, and through the increased intensity, have a, a, a way better outcome.

   18. PAPeter Attia45:13

       So for certain exercises, um, it's safe and relatively straightforward to determine a zero RIR.

   19. JCJeff Cavaliere45:21

       Mm-hmm.

   20. PAPeter Attia45:21

       And to your point, and I agree with you completely, this is exactly the thing-

   21. JCJeff Cavaliere45:25

       Mm

   22. PAPeter Attia45:25

       ... we explain to our patients is, uh, especially people who are new to resistance training and we're, we're trying to, you know, build these habits in them is-

   23. JCJeff Cavaliere45:33

       Mm

   24. PAPeter Attia45:33

       ... um, you can't know what one or two RIR is until you know what zero is.

   25. JCJeff Cavaliere45:38

       100%.

   26. PAPeter Attia45:38

       You have to fail.

   27. JCJeff Cavaliere45:39

       Yeah.

   28. PAPeter Attia45:39

       And so I want you to start to learn what failure looks like. Now, it's really... Again, it's safe and straightforward to learn what, um, what failure is if you're doing an overhead, you know, tricep extension, uh, 'cause the cost of failure is really low.

   29. JCJeff Cavaliere45:53

       Yeah.

   30. PAPeter Attia45:53

       Especially if you're doing it on a cable pulley-
8. 48:28 – 52:34

   How training intensity changes in midlife

   1. PAPeter Attia48:28

      Now, I know from all of my time training that there are just certain days when I'm not able to push as hard as other days, and this is not just true in the weight room. It's true on the bike. It's true in the pool. Uh, so it's true with cardio. It's true with resistance. And I've long wondered why, right? And, and so what, what is it that allows me on some days to push so much harder? And why are there- ... some days where there's almost like a built-in governor.

   2. JCJeff Cavaliere49:02

      Yeah.

   3. PAPeter Attia49:03

      Uh, and, and it just says, "I'm not gonna let you go past this threshold of pain today." And, and I'll, I'll be honest with you, that is something that I've probably noticed a little more of lately than I noticed in my 30s and my early 40s. I mean, in my... Even up until my early 40s, I had almost a supernatural ability to do what I called burn the matches-

   4. JCJeff Cavaliere49:24

      Yeah

   5. PAPeter Attia49:24

      ... every single day. And I would do this very s- strange thing. Even on a recovery day, if I was out for a recovery ride-

   6. JCJeff Cavaliere49:32

      Mm

   7. PAPeter Attia49:32

      ... I would still always do a four or five-minute all-out hill climb. At the end of an, even an easy swim, I would still do an all-out set for, you know, 400 yards or 300 yards or something like that. And, uh, today there's no... There are many days when I could never do that. So do you think that's a consequence of aging? Do you think that's a consequence of stress in life or other things that, you know, just the, the, the body can only manage so many things, and if you're, if you have too much stress in your life about work and kids and things like that, you just can't bring all of your energy to a workout? I mean, what, what do you think is driving that? And, and I guess I'll, I'll add one final question, which is really the question at hand, which is how can an individual understand, are they at psychological limit or mechanical limit?

   8. JCJeff Cavaliere50:20

      Those are definitely the two biggest contributors are the psychological and mechanical factors. However, psychological could be driven by your recovery. Your mechanical could, could be driven by your recovery. So whether you're getting a good enough sleep that night, whether you are undergoing stress outside the gym in your life, these, these factors chip away. And they chip away at your ability to tap into that next level, I think. They don't chip away at your ability to show up, 'cause that's just part of your habit at that point. They chip away at your ability to tap into that next level of intensity to train and do what you're saying-

   9. PAPeter Attia50:55

      Mm-hmm

   10. JCJeff Cavaliere50:55

       ... burn the matches, because that does take a reserve, right? That... You're tapping into reserves there, and if the reserves are already tapped out because of these other stresses or your, again, lack of sleep and other factors that lead to poor nutrition, that lead to the, the, the, the feeling that you're having, then that's going to prevent you from tapping in. I think what contributes more to that, though, and it, and it, it sucks because it's sort of the inevitable part of what we're dealing with, but it is the aging contribution. We know that as we age, obviously we're losing type 2 muscle fibers. We're l- we're, we're getting weaker. We're, we're losing the muscle mass itself. So things that used to be achievable with less effort because of the higher levels of strength and the higher distribution and proportion of type 2 fibers, that's, that's starting to, to physically go away. So things that you used to be able to do are gonna become more challenging. Now, we try to, like, push through that and say, "Okay, I gotta just push, push harder." But then we have the hormonal contributions to that, too, that make pushing harder and doing harder things more easy. That is starting to get challenged, too, as we get older. So we start to get a, a, a decrease in the, in the, the hormones, the male hormones that are driving. And women see the same, the same effects here, too. They're getting a, a decrease in their hormones that provide that level of effort, and also the, the, the hormones that help to regulate stress and help to regulate sleep and help us to have un- undisturbed sleep. These are all starting to get disturbed as we get older, and I think that whole picture makes it more difficult to do the things

9. 52:34 – 1:05:25

   Hypertrophy: misconceptions and common mistakes when training shoulders

   1. JCJeff Cavaliere52:34

      that we used to do.

   2. PAPeter Attia52:35

      Let's stay on this sort of, uh, physique hypertrophy side of things for, for a while, and let's, um, let's take kind of a nuanced look at muscle and muscle groups specifically, uh, head to toe. And I wanna talk about kind of the, the most common misconceptions, the biggest mistakes people are making, and maybe what the greatest unlocks are for folks who have been frustrated in lack of gains in these areas.

   3. JCJeff Cavaliere53:02

      Yeah.

   4. PAPeter Attia53:03

      Um, and whenever possible or w- whenever you feel that it, it adds value, s- you know, feel free to distinguish between male and female.

   5. JCJeff Cavaliere53:12

      Okay.

   6. PAPeter Attia53:12

      But I also kind of assume at the end of the day, male and female training, um, has to be pretty similar, right? I mean, the same principles of progressive overload apply, so I don't know if that even makes sense as a valid question. I also realize that, of course, men and women sometimes have different goals-

   7. JCJeff Cavaliere53:28

      Yeah

   8. PAPeter Attia53:28

      ... you know, um, with respect to what they want physique-wise. But, but anyway, feel free to handle that part-

   9. JCJeff Cavaliere53:33

      Okay

   10. PAPeter Attia53:33

       ... as in any way you, you choose. So, um, what would you... wh- where would you say we're starting at the top? Shoulders, traps? Like-

   11. JCJeff Cavaliere53:40

       Sure, shoulders.

   12. PAPeter Attia53:40

       Okay, okay. So what are, um... So you got somebody like me with salmon shoulders.

   13. JCJeff Cavaliere53:46

       [laughs]

   14. PAPeter Attia53:46

       They don't really bulge out at all. If I, if I... Uh, and by the way, I'm taking notes for myself. So, um, what are the biggest mistakes people make? And when people want to beef up their shoulders, what should they be doing? What are they doing wrong?

   15. JCJeff Cavaliere53:58

       The shoulders are a three-headed muscle, posterior deltoid, middle deltoid, and front deltoid. So people do take an approach where they try to choose exercises that will focus more on one head versus the other. There's a lot of people who say that the front delt doesn't need to be trained because it gets a lot of work in pressing and overhead pressing. It depends on how detailed you wanna get or how s- specified you wanna get in terms of building up shoulder development. But it's a head of the deltoid, it's a muscle, a- and, and it needs to be trained. So I think if you were to try to develop optimal size of your shoulders, you're gonna wanna choose exercises that do focus on each one of the heads of the delt individually, and then with, with the most attention. So you're never gonna isolate one versus the other, but with the most attention. And then you're gonna wanna make sure you're still doing your compound lift, which is always part of every muscle we're gonna talk about. Like, what's the compound lifts you can do where you have other muscles assisting that work so you can push that muscle to and through its failure point, like we talked about. So for me, it starts with- A vertical pressing movement of some sort. To be able to do some vertical pressing, which is really a point of contention for some people 'cause that's gonna be orthopedically one of the things that hurts the most. But there's always some modification to that, that I believe you should be able to do.

   16. PAPeter Attia55:21

       And sorry, let's just say why is the vertical press so important to you? Is it because it's getting all three heads simultaneously?

   17. JCJeff Cavaliere55:27

       It gets all three heads simultaneously. It's one- it's a functional requirement of life to be able to lift our arms up overhead. I'm not saying that we have to lift our arms up overhead with, with weight in our hands, 40, 50, 80 pounds on, whatever we're doing. That's-

   18. PAPeter Attia55:39

       But if you wanna put a suitcase into-

   19. JCJeff Cavaliere55:41

       Well, yeah

   20. PAPeter Attia55:41

       ... an overhead bin.

   21. JCJeff Cavaliere55:41

       I mean, I, I just witnessed it as we were flying here, you know, someone trying to lift their suitcase. I was wondering if I had to step in and jump in and help 'cause it looked like a struggle to get it up into that overhead bin. Y- you need to be able to handle weight overhead, and so I also think that it, it also uses full range of motion to do that. We never wanna forgo full range of motion. Full range of motion is, is the, is the nutrient t- to the joint. So if we only stuck with movements that work the front, middle, and rear delts, we could theoretically stay below shoulder level our entire training session. I wanna see you get your arm up overhead so we're getting that shoulder through its full range of motion, the joint itself through its full range of motion. It's not always about just the muscle itself. It's about the joint that you're trying to train around to get the full function that we're looking for.

   22. PAPeter Attia56:31

       Now, someone like you, Jeff, with some arthritis-

   23. JCJeff Cavaliere56:34

       Yeah

   24. PAPeter Attia56:34

       ... already in your right shoulder.

   25. JCJeff Cavaliere56:36

       Mm-hmm.

   26. PAPeter Attia56:36

       Um, let's just assume you had a little bit of AC arthritis as well, so now-

   27. JCJeff Cavaliere56:40

       I do have some of that too. [laughs]

   28. PAPeter Attia56:41

       So there you go. So what are the modifications you make? How do you safely accommodate that motion? And 'cause obviously, you know, gosh, I mean, back when I was a kid in high school, we were doing it behind the-

   29. JCJeff Cavaliere56:51

       Yeah, behind the head. Yeah

   30. PAPeter Attia56:52

       ... head. I don't think people are doing that anymore, are they? Most people are doing an overhead press in front, I assume.
10. 1:05:25 – 1:18:39

    Deltoid muscles of the shoulder: exercises beyond the overhead press

    1. PAPeter Attia1:05:25

       Okay.

    2. JCJeff Cavaliere1:05:25

       Yeah. I, I believe so.

    3. PAPeter Attia1:05:26

       So now if, if you could add a second or a third movement, presumably you're not gonna wanna bang on the anterior portion again because you're getting enough of that through presses. Are you gonna wanna do something for the lateral head or the posterior head?

    4. JCJeff Cavaliere1:05:39

       Yeah. So either, either of those other two options. Again, I, I think... I, I, I agree with your, with your question there entirely in that that would, that would be the third choice. The front delt would be the th- third choice of the three. But I think if, back to what I said originally, if you were trying to maximize hypertrophy of the shoulder, uh, you, you could still do front delt exercises. Again, there's a lot of fear around doing them.

    5. PAPeter Attia1:06:01

       Can I ask a silly question?

    6. JCJeff Cavaliere1:06:02

       Yeah.

    7. PAPeter Attia1:06:03

       You know, when you see somebody who's... And this, again, is both male and female both tend to prioritize having a nice sort of-

    8. JCJeff Cavaliere1:06:10

       Yeah

    9. PAPeter Attia1:06:10

       ... separation.

    10. JCJeff Cavaliere1:06:10

        Mm-hmm.

    11. PAPeter Attia1:06:11

        Um, is that visually created by the lateral delt or the anterior delt?

    12. JCJeff Cavaliere1:06:16

        So that's where I think the, the front delt is a little, uh, a little un- underappreciated 'cause I think it does create that, if you're talking about the visual aesthetic of it, that separation between the chest and the f- and the deltoid 'cause you're getting that line that comes in on the-

    13. PAPeter Attia1:06:30

        Mm-hmm

    14. JCJeff Cavaliere1:06:30

        ... on the anterior part of the shoulder. But when you're looking at that, that roundedness of the shoulder, that is almost entirely coming from the middle delt.

    15. PAPeter Attia1:06:40

        Yep.

    16. JCJeff Cavaliere1:06:40

        You're not even really seeing the rear delt there.

    17. PAPeter Attia1:06:42

        Yep.

    18. JCJeff Cavaliere1:06:42

        The, the, the visual benefits of the rear delt is when someone turns to the side and then you see whether they have a rounded shoulder there or whether they have, like, an emptiness to, to their shirts in the backside of their shoulder there. But the rear delt is one of the most functionally important for maintaining proper balance of the joint itself. So I think as a physical therapist, my next answer should be the rear delts-

    19. PAPeter Attia1:07:03

        Rear delt

    20. JCJeff Cavaliere1:07:04

        ... 'cause I know the exercises that go to training that are gonna have a lot of other benefits to you posturally and, again, maintaining joint health for the long run. But if you're talking about strictly aesthetics and what you wanted to do to have a better appearance when looked at from the front, then it's gonna be the middle delt.

    21. PAPeter Attia1:07:19

        All right, so what's a middle delt exercise or what's the-

    22. JCJeff Cavaliere1:07:21

        So any lateral raise is good. I do like the cable lateral raise a lot because it- it's got tension throughout the exercise for a longer portion of the range of motion. If we do a lateral raise with our arms at our side, the exercise has v- basically very, zero tension at the bottom, and it starts to rise up as I raise the dumbbell up. But with the lateral raise with the cable, I have... First of all, I have a stretch tension on the delt itself in that starting position, and as soon as I start to pull, I'm already getting higher levels of tension in the middle delt, and they are maintained as long as you sort of manipulate your body or your arm position in space as you go. We're always trying to get, when we, when we use cables, this perpendicularity between the cable and that moving structure. So if I have my arm here, it's my forearm that's really the moving structure that I'm, that I'm focused on. How, how long can I maintain this relationship of the cable and my forearm in this perpendicular alignment? If I can do that and pull up, again, I, I sort of manipulate my arm in space to, to feel where that is, then I'm gonna feel that middle delt working at a high level throughout almost the entire range of motion.

    23. PAPeter Attia1:08:33

        For people who are just listening to us and not watching us, you, you're doing kind of a cable, uh, it's alm- raise is almost the wrong word. You're basically doing a cable-

    24. JCJeff Cavaliere1:08:43

        Like a-

    25. PAPeter Attia1:08:43

        ... movement across your body.

    26. JCJeff Cavaliere1:08:44

        Across, like a rowing movement.

    27. PAPeter Attia1:08:45

        Yeah.

    28. JCJeff Cavaliere1:08:45

        Yeah.

    29. PAPeter Attia1:08:45

        Because you don't need gravity when you have the cable.

    30. JCJeff Cavaliere1:08:47

        Right, right.
11. 1:18:39 – 1:29:37

    Triceps: compound movements and exercises that target the long head

    1. JCJeff Cavaliere1:18:39

       Let's go, uh, let's go down the arms.

    2. PAPeter Attia1:18:40

       Okay. So let's, uh, let's hit the triceps.

    3. JCJeff Cavaliere1:18:43

       Okay. Um-

    4. PAPeter Attia1:18:45

       So there's, again, three heads of these bad boys.

    5. JCJeff Cavaliere1:18:47

       Three heads here again. So you don't have to be as specific here because really there's one differentiator between the long head, the tricep, and the other two heads, the lateral and medial head. All three of them extend the elbow, so they straighten the elbow out. The long head, because it has an attachment that crosses the shoulder joint onto the scapula, is affected by positioning of the arm itself, the shoulder itself. So when you put your arm up overhead, you're putting that long head in a more stretched position to start the exercise. When you put that arm back behind your body and extend your elbow, you're having an effect on the, the degree of contraction of that long head because you're getting a more complete contraction if your arm is back behind your body. So what I always recommend is- Though there's three heads, I'd really like to see you do a good compound exercise that just focuses on extending the elbow. Do an exercise that places tension or a higher amount of tension on the long head in that stretched position, and do an exercise that places more tension on that long head or takes advantage of the fact that the long head could be in a position of greater contraction with the arm back behind the body. So those are my three real staples or requirements. The compound exercise is not as big or as important to me in terms of, well, let's do something like a bench press where I'm getting assistance for like a close grip bench press where I'm getting assistance from the chest and shoulders, too. I think you could still do a heavy lying tricep extension as your compound exercise, and you're also checking off that box of the stretching of the, of the-

    6. PAPeter Attia1:20:29

       Mm-hmm

    7. JCJeff Cavaliere1:20:29

       ... tricep's long head at the same time. That's my favorite exercise for a number of reasons.

    8. PAPeter Attia1:20:35

       So laying on the bench, um, you've got a bar. You could use an EZ-Grip bar.

    9. JCJeff Cavaliere1:20:40

       EZ bar-

    10. PAPeter Attia1:20:40

        And-

    11. JCJeff Cavaliere1:20:40

        ... or a regular straight bar, but that could be harder on people's wrists.

    12. PAPeter Attia1:20:42

        Okay. But you would prefer a bar to dumbbells?

    13. JCJeff Cavaliere1:20:45

        Dumbbells are okay. Um, I don't mind dumbbells at all. I use dumbbells a lot, uh, myself. But people sometimes can feel it to be a little awkward 'cause they can't ever time the dumbbells right in terms of-

    14. PAPeter Attia1:20:54

        Yeah

    15. JCJeff Cavaliere1:20:54

        ... you know, extension.

    16. PAPeter Attia1:20:55

        So again, the technical term for what you just described, right, would be humeral extension or extension of the arm.

    17. JCJeff Cavaliere1:21:01

        Of the elbow. Yeah.

    18. PAPeter Attia1:21:02

        Yeah. And so how much do you need to get enough long head pre-stretch? Do you, are you doing that with... So again, for people listening, I'm trying not to use my hands that much. If I'm laying on the, on the ground and I bring my arms up to, my humerus up to perpendicular to the ground-

    19. JCJeff Cavaliere1:21:21

        Yeah

    20. PAPeter Attia1:21:21

        ... is that enough stretch?

    21. JCJeff Cavaliere1:21:22

        No.

    22. PAPeter Attia1:21:22

        Or does it need to be-

    23. JCJeff Cavaliere1:21:24

        It needs to go back

    24. PAPeter Attia1:21:24

        ... really opening the axilla up?

    25. JCJeff Cavaliere1:21:26

        Yeah. You have to open up those, uh, armpits for sure. You gotta get your body to a position where I'd say... So if you're laying on your back and your arm was directly pointed to the ceiling, you would be at a, a 90 degree.

    26. PAPeter Attia1:21:39

        90 degree.

    27. JCJeff Cavaliere1:21:39

        Right?

    28. PAPeter Attia1:21:39

        Yep.

    29. JCJeff Cavaliere1:21:39

        So I'd say you're, you're gonna wanna be at least 120 degrees or so more. You go another 30 degrees back behind your head. A nice ballpark area for that is that your arm is sort of approximating towards your ear.

    30. PAPeter Attia1:21:50

        Yeah.
12. 1:29:37 – 1:33:34

    Upper arm: best approaches for building hypertrophy and strength

    1. PAPeter Attia1:29:37

       What other exercise would you consider a very important one for someone who is struggling to add mass or strength to the upper arm?

    2. JCJeff Cavaliere1:29:43

       Yeah, so th- this is another controversial one, but it's, it's just, uh, uh, it's, it's, it's true. You need, you would need to do an exercise that would get that, that long head in its fully shortened position. So something that contracts that elbow with your arm behind your body. So we're talking about some form of a tricep kickback. You could do it with a cable. You could do it with dumbbells. You could do it on an incline bench face down. But the long head of the triceps will be its, i- i- in its fully contracted state when you are able to get full wrist ex- uh, or full elbow extension and shoulder extension at the same time. And that is one of the only exercises that allows you to do that. Other than some of these pushdown variations I've talked about, um, where you can get a straightened elbow and get your elbow positioned back behind you a little bit. You could do that on a pushdown if you had a long rope, right? A long rope that you could position your arms behind your body, and we call it a drag pushdown, where you're actually dragging your hands down your body. So when you finish, your hands will be on the side of your legs. Your elbows will be back behind your body. You'll have the same type of effect there. But not everybody has a rope long enough to pull that off. A regular gym rope won't cut it. If you attach two ropes, you could possibly do that.

    3. PAPeter Attia1:30:56

       Before we move on to bicep, do you... Maybe we can talk about this after or before. But, um, benefits and cons to super setting tricep with bicep, with deltoid. You know, how do you think about the entire complex? 'Cause it's not uncommon for somebody to say, "I'm gonna do arms on a day."

    4. JCJeff Cavaliere1:31:13

       Yeah.

    5. PAPeter Attia1:31:13

       And that might just be delt, uh, bicep, tricep if they're gonna do chest and back on another day.

    6. JCJeff Cavaliere1:31:19

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    7. PAPeter Attia1:31:20

       Um, so how do you think about the trade-offs of that?

    8. JCJeff Cavaliere1:31:23

       All that does is really affect your overall volumes for the week and how you're distributing your volumes for the week. It doesn't, um, it wouldn't impact my exercise selection, I don't think, on triceps to, if I was still train- if I was training biceps on the same day. Unless I had some kind of a, um- A orthopedic issue where the accumulation of multiple positions from these different exercises is, is causing me to feel more joint soreness. A- again, if we're choosing the right exercises, it shouldn't be doing that anyway. So i- if that's not the case, I, um, I don't, I don't have any objection to people doing biceps and triceps together. They tend to look at them as two smaller muscle groups that, because they're antagonistic to each other, it feels good to train them on a day. While you're fatiguing one, you're not necessarily fatiguing the other, so it feels fresh on both sides of that. People that do triceps at the end of shoulders or chest, it's another good thing to do when you're talking about maximizing recovery because all of those pushing muscles that have a similar function are going in the same day, so that when I come back the next day, if I'm doing pulling, like biceps and upper back and back, then I'm getting a complete reprieve of those muscles. And if I go do legs the next day, I'm getting a reprieve of two days of rest before I come back to them again. So that's really the consideration is how it impacts recovery. But from a individual exercise selection, my choices wouldn't change on the triceps if I train them u- with biceps. If I did train them with something that was doing a similar function, like chest and tri- and shoulders, then I might decide on how I wanna change exercises up. Like, there, the bench press we know is gonna act as a secondary compound to the, to the triceps or it's gonna help the triceps.

    9. PAPeter Attia1:33:00

       So let's say you did that split. You said, "I'm gonna do chest, shoulder, tricep as one day-

    10. JCJeff Cavaliere1:33:04

        Mm-hmm

    11. PAPeter Attia1:33:04

        ... back, bicep as another day." You would still start presumably with your chest exercises because-

    12. JCJeff Cavaliere1:33:10

        Yeah, yeah

    13. PAPeter Attia1:33:11

        ... they're the, it's the biggest compound movement.

    14. JCJeff Cavaliere1:33:12

        Yeah.

    15. PAPeter Attia1:33:12

        And you would move probably from chest-

    16. JCJeff Cavaliere1:33:14

        Towards, towards tricep

    17. PAPeter Attia1:33:14

        ... to shoulder toward tricep?

    18. JCJeff Cavaliere1:33:15

        Unless, again, it depends on how aesthetically driven somebody is and what they're trying to accomplish here. If they had weaker triceps or weaker development of their triceps, you might wanna prioritize your triceps first and go do your triceps training first when you're most fresh, and then come back and do the others if, if they weren't of higher, as, of as high a priority.

    19. PAPeter Attia1:33:33

        For those

13. 1:33:34 – 1:41:45

    Biceps: nuance around training

    1. PAPeter Attia1:33:34

       of us with puny biceps, what are we doing wrong? What are the most common mistakes people make, and how do they fix it?

    2. JCJeff Cavaliere1:33:40

       So when it comes to biceps, I believe the number one stimulus for bicep growth is the eccentric overload of the biceps, the fact that... Especially when, when we're talking about most of the, of these pulling muscles, the eccentric is gonna be the part where you're lowering the weight under a, a slower tempo, trying to e- accentuate the stretching tension that we get, in addition to the fact that the weight itself is applying tension. So we're getting tension two separate ways. We could do that with a heavier barbell curl. We could do a cheat curl where you're actually, you know, you do some repetitions that are strict as you can, but you get a little bit loose on the form to get the weight up, and then you have to really fight the weight on the way down. You will always be stronger on that way down than you are on the way up. So if you never really do that and tap into some of the cheating of the concentric to get up, then you're never really gonna apply the same level of eccentric overload that you can. So I like doing the, the, the barbell curl with a, with a cheat. Chin-ups are one of my favorite ways to eccentrically challenge the, the biceps. So if I get up there and lower myself down, I can change the exercise to be a little bit more focused on the biceps by just opening the angle a little bit of the chin up. A lot of people, times, people will do a chin up and they'll pull until their biceps are touching their forearms, right? And that's gonna get a lot of lat engagement. But if I can just open the angle and get my body a little further away from the bar, now I've shifted some of that focus to the biceps, and I want to, um, again, handle those eccentric repetitions as slowly, uh, a- as painfully [laughs] in a good way, as possible. I, I, I w- was always a fan of doing chin-ups and trying to challenge myself to hold onto the bar for as long as I can. I used to win the flexed arm hang every year at field day 'cause I used to, like, basically work at it in, in, in, you know, the off-season of field day. But I-

    3. PAPeter Attia1:35:38

       [laughs]

    4. JCJeff Cavaliere1:35:38

       ... I, I, I was, like, determined to win that every year. But I, I enjoy trying to hang and hold myself in a flexed arm hang position.

    5. PAPeter Attia1:35:46

       What did it take to get the top mark? I, I remember this vaguely from-

    6. JCJeff Cavaliere1:35:48

       Oh, God. I bet you I was around 45 seconds to a minute I was able to do it for. Like, I think that was, like, what the, what the winning requirement was, uh, which is still tough now. I usually do them only in a, in a fatigue state, though. So at the end of a workout, it's a great way for me to finish.

    7. PAPeter Attia1:36:02

       And remind me. I- it's, it's, like, taking me back to third grade.

    8. JCJeff Cavaliere1:36:04

       Yeah.

    9. PAPeter Attia1:36:05

       You, what was the, you had to keep your chin above the bar?

    10. JCJeff Cavaliere1:36:07

        Chin above the bar, yeah. Get up there, chin above the bar, and just, you know, hold for as long as possible. Uh, now I extend it pa- past that, though, so now what I'll do is I, it's, it's not just chin below the bar. I keep going until my feet hit the floor. So as long as I can go for a set is, is what I'll do. But again, I, I like to do that as a finisher at the end of-

    11. PAPeter Attia1:36:26

        Yeah

    12. JCJeff Cavaliere1:36:26

        ... what I'm doing, um, not as the primary source. But a- any type of eccentric overload is a, is great. And again, when it comes to biceps, where is the risk? If I'm on a chin-up bar, I simply let myself go and my feet hit the floor. If I have a, a barbell and it's going down, it's gonna accelerate faster. I put it on the bench or wherever I have to put it back in the rack. It's not like the stress that we have when we are doing a, a bench press of some sort where the weight's coming down on top of us or a squat when the weight's coming down on top of us. We have such a, a safety net when we do these exercises that not utilizing them is a big opportunity missed.

    13. PAPeter Attia1:37:02

        Now, what about hitting different parts of the bicep? The, um, w- how, how about, for example, like, a preacher curl-

    14. JCJeff Cavaliere1:37:10

        Yep

    15. PAPeter Attia1:37:10

        ... versus an incline bench with arm-

    16. JCJeff Cavaliere1:37:13

        Yeah

    17. PAPeter Attia1:37:14

        ... you know, behind you curl. Like, what are the trade-offs or advantages?

    18. JCJeff Cavaliere1:37:16

        So short head, long head is the differentiator here, and, um, the two heads of the bicep are the short head and long head. The long head gets its name because its attachment is higher in the shoulder. It's actually part, it's, it's attaching inside the shoulder joint to that labrum. Um, and then the, the, the short head has a attachment that's lower. So the long head is gonna be better hit 'cause, again, it's crossing that shoulder joint with things that place it on stretch by getting it back behind the body, which is the incline- Uh, dumbbell curl that you mentioned, the incline position when my arms are hanging is gonna put them back behind the body a little bit and it gives you that slight pre-stretch on the, on the exercise. That slight pr- pre-stretch is supposed to allow for a, a, a better recruitment of the muscle fibers to the, to the exercise. But it also, I believe, its main driver is it just gives that second level of, of tension, that second, that second source of tension beyond just the dumbbells itself. You're getting a stretching tension on top of the, the dumbbells themselves. So an incline dumbbell press is, is good. That could become a little bit irri- irritating to people that have, um, shoulder issues though if they, if they go too, if they go too low on that, if they go to a position that's-

    19. PAPeter Attia1:38:30

        You would incline at what? 60 or 45?

    20. JCJeff Cavaliere1:38:33

        45 might be a little r- on the edge there. I'd say 60 degrees is more comfortable for me. Um, and then the, the short head is really, again, s- just flexing the elbow, getting your arms out in front of your body.

    21. PAPeter Attia1:38:46

        So that's the preacher curl.

    22. JCJeff Cavaliere1:38:47

        Preacher curl. Um, cable curls, just, just a standard cable curl. The, uh, traditional barbell curl would, would, would s- hit more of the, of the short head. And then there's also this concept of what you see is what you train. So when you're looking in the mirror, if your arms are rotated outwards and you can see the inner portion of your bicep more, that would be... That's your short head. The, this portion that you see on the inside is the short head. That would be working more of the short head. So I have an exercise variation we call the no money curl. So I have no money. Like, my arms are out here at the side. I got nothing, right? Your external rotation of the arms there, curling from that position there is gonna work more of that short head. When I have my arms internally rotated more and curling from that position like I would from a drag curl, anything like a, around a drag curl, then I'm seeing more of that outer portion of the bicep visibly in the mirror, then I'm gonna be working more of that, of that long head also. So it's, it, that's another indicator of how you can differentiate between the exercises.

    23. PAPeter Attia1:39:48

        Now, for someone who's not, you know, a bodybuilder or really in the minutia-

    24. JCJeff Cavaliere1:39:52

        Yeah

    25. PAPeter Attia1:39:52

        ... of trying to differentiate, is bicep one of those things where as long as you are adhering to really good principles of eccentric loading, getting something on long head and short head, y- you know, exact arm position might not matter. It's get the volume right, get the stimulus right, and go.

    26. JCJeff Cavaliere1:40:09

        Yeah. I, I, I think for m- most of these muscle groups, that, like, if people did even just these basics and they were just trying to make sure that they're checking off the boxes of actually doing some exercises for biceps, shoulders, chest, all these muscles we're gonna talk about, they're gonna see amazing results from them. Arnold was famous for having his, uh, his golden six, right? Just having six exercises that you can do that are gonna essentially provide the biggest bang for their buck. You worry about progressively overloading on them and getting stronger. They're gonna, they're gonna cr- create a, a, a, a good physique at the end of the day. But the nuances, I think, help a lot when it comes to training around and navigating around injuries or-

    27. PAPeter Attia1:40:49

        Yeah

    28. JCJeff Cavaliere1:40:49

        ... or, or limitations because again, back to what we said in the beginning, if you have the understanding of where you can go when they, when you do hit one of these roadblocks or closures, then you have the rerouting possibilities. And if you don't understand what's, uh, uh, part of making up that movement, you don't have the ability to do that so freely.

    29. PAPeter Attia1:41:08

        And would you put bicep and tricep in the same category as delt, where you're talking about eight to 10 working sets per week to make gains, or do you need a little more?

    30. JCJeff Cavaliere1:41:16

        Oh, I don't think you need a little more. I think you could, you could... Uh, if anything, you could get away with less. I mean, as long as they're high, high-effort, taken to failure sets, I mean, they're a smaller muscle group. They don't need as much. And they're gonna get, uh, they're definitely going to get additional benefits from the other compound movements that you do. When you're training chest, you're gonna be training your biceps. When you're training, uh, triceps. When you're training your, uh, back, you're going to be training your biceps. So you're gonna get some additional volume in any way in their accessory role.
14. 1:41:45 – 1:44:36

    Forearm exercises that target the flexors and brachioradialis

    1. PAPeter Attia1:41:45

       forearm exercises that aren't obviously getting all the work already with bicep and stuff like that?

    2. JCJeff Cavaliere1:41:50

       Forearms, I think it's, it's rather boring when it comes to forearms because if you look at the, the wrist function side of forearms, meaning the extending and flexing of the wrist, you can get a lot done with two basic exercises, just simple barbell wrist curls or barbell wrist extensions or, or dumbbell wrist extensions, dumbbell curls, or cable. You could do the same thing. Whichever position or whichever device you wanna use, you can do that. When you extend the benefits beyond that to the forearm itself, we can move our forearm in space and it still work forearm muscles. So the brachialis is a muscle that we j- the brachioradialis is a muscle that crosses from the upper arm down to the forearm itself that we can get with reverse curls, an exercise that we can load more heavily, but it is a big muscle that sticks out and provides a lot of forearm development. So just limiting it to wrist curls and wrist action is not enough to train your forearm. You can get even more into the minutia when you start to do radial deviation, ulnar deviation-

    3. PAPeter Attia1:42:51

       Yes

    4. JCJeff Cavaliere1:42:51

       ... and pronation and supination, and those are all amazing movements. And I, I like to just resist them all with bands. I've actually done a video where I show you how to do all those movements with just bands. And again, it's, it's, it's something that can match your ability level based on just how much resistance or how far away you step from the anchoring point. I do like one other functional type exercise, which we used to do in baseball a lot. It's just a, a roll of some sort. So y- uh, an over-under roll. You could take just a, a barbell itself and roll forward until you fatigue, and then you roll backwards, fatigue. All it's doing is basically the rolling forward is essentially creating wrist, uh, wrist flexion and getting the flexors, and the rolling backwards of the bar is getting wrist extension, training the fl- extensors on the back of the forearm.

    5. PAPeter Attia1:43:40

       And you're doing that on the ground?

    6. JCJeff Cavaliere1:43:42

       Uh, just with a, in standing in space with a barbell in my hand.

    7. PAPeter Attia1:43:45

       Got it.

    8. JCJeff Cavaliere1:43:45

       Just rolling over that barbell until you can't do it anymore. We've, we've shown before a more elaborate version, which is really Pretty cool, but you take a, a band and you wrap it around the edge of a barbell that's in a rack. And you take that band and then anchor it to a kettlebell, right? Or a dumbbell. You just tie it around the kettlebell or dumbbell you have that. And now what you do is you, you roll over the top of that end of the barbell until you lift that kettlebell weight all the way to the top. And then more importantly, you unroll it just as slowly and under control. 'Cause what it wants to do is just go right back down to the ground, so you have to s- un- unroll it very slowly and go back down to the ground.

    9. PAPeter Attia1:44:21

       [laughs]

    10. JCJeff Cavaliere1:44:22

        So it's another way to, like, almost gamify forearm training, 'cause again, forearm training can be pretty boring and straightforward, but effective.

    11. PAPeter Attia1:44:30

        Okay, let's go to everybody's favorite. Let's talk pecs.

    12. JCJeff Cavaliere1:44:32

        Pecs. It's international chest day every day.

    13. PAPeter Attia1:44:34

        [laughs]

    14. JCJeff Cavaliere1:44:35

        Uh,

15. 1:44:36 – 1:57:13

    Pecs and chest: pressing and crossover movements

    1. JCJeff Cavaliere1:44:36

       I mean-

    2. PAPeter Attia1:44:36

       I was talking to a buddy of mine yesterday and, and I hadn't talked to him in a while. And, and, um, you know, this is... He's a really serious guy when it comes to his training. And I was like, "All right, what's new in your workouts, man?" And he goes, "Chest day every day."

    3. JCJeff Cavaliere1:44:49

       Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

    4. PAPeter Attia1:44:49

       Which of course is, he's being facetious, but, but it was, uh, the fact that that was his joke, of course-

    5. JCJeff Cavaliere1:44:53

       I mean, it's, it's, it is a centerpiece on the torso, so I think when people... That and abs, right? So when people see themselves in the mirror every day, that is the f- thing that catches their eye first. So I think that's why it gets so much attention. Um, when it comes to, to the chest, there's two major requirements here. You wanna get some type of pressing movement, and you wanna get some type of movement that adducts or brings the arm across the chest. So when it comes to the pressing movements, you have options of obviously barbells, dumbbells, machines. They're all gonna do pretty much the same thing in terms of the movement itself, but how it feels can be drastically different. And this is where when you have shoulder issues, and I can speak from experience here, some of them are gonna feel a lot more uncomfortable than others. When I was going through that period of inflammation in that joint, which was long after, by the way, long after the, uh, the injury itself. I had kinda re-aggravated that injury in demonstrating some of these bad exercises to do early on in my channel. Um, I, uh, w- couldn't do any pressing. I could not do any pressing at all. There wasn't a pressing variation that I could find that was comfortable for me. So I did all of my work through the adduction crossover-type exercise, taking a cable, grabbing onto the handle, and then crossing my arm over my body. I think the ability to pull the cable in with your bicep to kinda get it going or, or know you have that option takes away some of the instability that might come from having your arm way out in front of you and, uh, that, that long moment arm that could be placed on the chest. So I found that to be a good rerouting option, you know, for, for me. Um, I was able to after doing those exercises get to, back to the point where I could press. But when it comes to the press itself, incline, flat, decline, if I had to choose one, I'd, I'd say, uh, incline because most people have a weaker development of their upper chest relative to their lower chest or middle chest. So an incline bench press will cover the, the weakest point of development and still do a really good job of hitting the rest of your chest. Um, but I think dumbbells give people with any issues the most opportunity to train pain-free. And if you still have pain when you train with dumbbells, slow it down. The slowing of the dumbbell, especially during the eccentric portion of it, is gonna give your joint the opportunity to feel safe and overcome any instability that might be causing some of your pain. So I believe that a lot of times, even though there's structural problems in the shoulder, when you combine structural issues with instability, they feel really vulnerable. Those structures feel very, very vulnerable. So when you can provide stability, mostly just by slowing the pace down, then that structure itself could feel a lot more supported and safe, and it doesn't cause the, the pain and discomfort that it would. And you're able to get into those fine-tuned positions we talked about before where you know it feels good there.

    6. PAPeter Attia1:48:04

       Yeah, you can sort of bring the elbows-

    7. JCJeff Cavaliere1:48:06

       Right

    8. PAPeter Attia1:48:07

       ... down a little bit.

    9. JCJeff Cavaliere1:48:07

       Right.

    10. PAPeter Attia1:48:08

        And so you're at a, you're at an angle that's, uh, m- maybe doesn't allow for the maxim- I mean, you're, you're using more tricep potentially, but you're also taking more stress-

    11. JCJeff Cavaliere1:48:16

        Yeah

    12. PAPeter Attia1:48:16

        ... off the AC joint.

    13. JCJeff Cavaliere1:48:17

        Yeah, and it, it feels like something that's, that is overall, um-

    14. PAPeter Attia1:48:22

        But it's interesting that you would preferentially say, "Look, if you've only got time for one pressing movement, make it the incline over the flat, and then let's get you over doing flies-

    15. JCJeff Cavaliere1:48:31

        Yeah

    16. PAPeter Attia1:48:31

        ... or cables or something as well."

    17. JCJeff Cavaliere1:48:32

        For sure. 100%.

    18. PAPeter Attia1:48:33

        Okay, so that's a pr- that's probably a common mistake people make is maybe spending a disproportionate or too much time pressing and not enough time using the adduction.

    19. JCJeff Cavaliere1:48:41

        Definitely. And I think that the, the pressing should, you should not over-exaggerate the angle of your press, though, when you're doing the incline bench. I like to keep it around 30 degrees or so.

    20. PAPeter Attia1:48:52

        Yeah.

    21. JCJeff Cavaliere1:48:52

        The, the higher you start to go, the more you start to shift that focus into the shoulders and that front delt again. So I, I, I think 30 degrees ab- is, uh, 45 degrees would be the maximum for me, but 30 degrees is where I like to train from on that incline.

    22. PAPeter Attia1:49:04

        And then let's talk a little bit about different ways that one can do adduction. You obviously referred to-

    23. JCJeff Cavaliere1:49:08

        Yeah

    24. PAPeter Attia1:49:08

        ... cables. Uh, of course, all of us grew up watching Arnie do flies.

    25. JCJeff Cavaliere1:49:12

        Mm-hmm.

    26. PAPeter Attia1:49:13

        Um, w- you know, ob- it looks like there's a lot of risk on the shoulder with-

    27. JCJeff Cavaliere1:49:18

        Yeah

    28. PAPeter Attia1:49:18

        ... just a heavy fly on a bench.

    29. JCJeff Cavaliere1:49:20

        I hate that exercise, so I, I, I, I've thrown that one in, in my iron graveyard too, and again, only because-

    30. PAPeter Attia1:49:26

        Just, I cannot wait to see the comments of people-
16. 1:57:13 – 2:05:23

    Great abs: nutrition, rotation exercises, interval training, and more

    1. PAPeter Attia1:57:13

       they say, uh, that most of the ab work is done in the kitchen.

    2. JCJeff Cavaliere1:57:18

       That is so true.

    3. PAPeter Attia1:57:18

       [laughs]

    4. JCJeff Cavaliere1:57:20

       I mean, us- strengthening the abs and getting aesthetically pleasing abs is really two different things, too. Um, I think that w- when we look at the contributions of nutrition and whatever ab exercises you're doing, it's, it, this is nutrition 99 times out of 100 is, is the, is, is what is responsible for what you're seeing. Nutrition's gonna control your body fat levels, period. What you see when you get rid of that body fat is determined by your dedication to ab training. I do not believe that doing the compounds is enough for your abs. I, I never believed that. I think that there are so many other things that your abs are responsible for in terms of motions and, and r- and, um, and, and movement patterns. You're not doing that all from a, a, a series of compound exercises. Matter of fact, in the compounds, their role is mostly just to stabilize. They're not creating rotation. They're not preventing rotation. Sometimes they're preventing rotation, but they're certainly not creating rotation. They're not creating rotation under a load. So how do we do that? So the exercises that you pick, once you get your body fat levels low enough, should hit these major functions. My major functions when it comes to abs are their ability to create top-down movement, which means pulling my ribcage towards my pelvis. 'Cause the flexion of the spine is really the main responsibility of the movement of the abs, okay? Their stabilization requirements are huge, but there's no movement going on there. So the flexion of the spine is, is coming from top-down movements. Bottom-up movement's where the pelvis is moving towards the, the ribcage itself, any type of reverse crunch. The same two things, but done with rotation, so it's now not just top-down, but it's top-down and rotating, so we call it top-down rotation. Bottom-up with rotation, so anything where your bottom, you're turn- pulling that, that pelvis up, but rotating at the same time or twisting. Then we have the obliques themselves that are gonna be feeding right into what the, you know, and working in conjunction with the abs. And then sort of mid-range movements where both the ribcage and the pelvis and, and move towards each other at the same time. So those are, like, V-ups and up exercises that do that. How you do these, anything done on the floor is generally gonna be easier, generally gonna be easier, than if you were to perform them hanging from a bar, because we have more of our body weight being subjected to gravity that we have to lift. Anything like a, a leg raise done from the floor is a hell of a lot easier than a leg raise done from a bar.

    5. PAPeter Attia1:59:56

       How do you do top-down with, on a bar?

    6. JCJeff Cavaliere2:00:00

       When doing it on a bar, you would do a, you would do more like a, if you're gonna do it with weight, you're gonna do a cable, like a crunch pull-down.

    7. PAPeter Attia2:00:05

       Got it. Okay.

    8. JCJeff Cavaliere2:00:06

       Yeah.

    9. PAPeter Attia2:00:06

       And how does one think about their portfolio when they think about all those things? So obviously the easiest top-down is a crunch, and then crunch with rotation is top-down with rotation, leg up from the floor with rotation, hanging leg raise with rotation.

    10. JCJeff Cavaliere2:00:22

        Yeah.

    11. PAPeter Attia2:00:22

        Um, that's, you're basically picking from those. How are you defining sets and reps for this funky muscle group?

    12. JCJeff Cavaliere2:00:30

        I believe it's, it's hard to, to define sets and reps for people when it comes to ab work.

    13. PAPeter Attia2:00:35

        Yeah.

    14. JCJeff Cavaliere2:00:35

        Because a couple things. Number one, we all can do different amounts. More so, we do a better job of creating good quality contractions when we're not just focused on a number, right? Like, if I say, "Hey, I, I just want you to, like..." And if I really just wanted to get a good ab workout, I'd really just focus on getting slower, meaningful, concentrated contractions on the abs, because it's too easy to involve the hip flexors. It's too easy to involve momentum, and we get so lost in the ability to say, "Yep, 30, 35, 40." Of what? 40 of what? 40 of, of waste. Like, there was nothing that actually was very productive there. So I'd rather see you either just do it until you can't do them anymore, so just train the exercise to failure, whatever that is, and know that you've done them slowly and, and concertedly so you're doing the right thing for the, w- you're trying to develop. Or I'd like to see you just do them for, like, a series of, of, um, specific amount of time, but focus on rotating through them as fast as possible. So I might not get complete fatigue from the one 30-second-

    15. PAPeter Attia2:01:45

        Mm-hmm

    16. JCJeff Cavaliere2:01:45

        ... bout that I'm doing, but knowing that I'm gonna go into the, immediately to the next one mechanically offsets, so it's a little bit, like, so I can still do it even if I'm fatigued from the other one, right? There's always a, a, a mechanical drop-down effect that's happening, so I can still keep doing exercise. But knowing that the end result of this will be at the end of these six minutes, seven minutes, whatever, I'm gonna be toast, right? And I can do that if I shift the focus a little bit around the abs, you know, from the top-down movement to the bottom-up, to moving those, those focuses around is gonna allow me to keep going for 30-second intervals with very little rest periods in between that- at the end of it all will have a cumulative effect. So those are the two ways that I usually like to do it. And, um, I've got plenty of workouts where I've posted where I do it in follow-along fashion, where I do it, like, where I just program it and tell you what to do. But there's a lot of variety within those because it's the movement pattern that's most important. The exercise itself isn't that as important. It's the ones that you tend to, to feel the most and feel the best contraction on are the ones I try to push people towards.

    17. PAPeter Attia2:02:52

        And what would be your favorite pure rotation exercise? If you're gonna pick one pure rotation exercise, would it be, um, you know, knee up, like one knee up, one knee down with a, a cross-body cable or something? Like, how, you know, what do you-

    18. JCJeff Cavaliere2:03:06

        So I like any type of, we, we call them sledgehammers, where you just basically take two hands on a, on a cable.

    19. PAPeter Attia2:03:11

        Yeah.

    20. JCJeff Cavaliere2:03:11

        And you're trying to, to, um, rotate. What I also like from those is when you get out to that position, having to hold them, and then step out even further, right? 'Cause especially if you're doing it with bands.

    21. PAPeter Attia2:03:23

        And you would prefer, you wanna see that standing? You wanna see that in a split stance?

    22. JCJeff Cavaliere2:03:26

        Standing.

    23. PAPeter Attia2:03:26

        Or what?

    24. JCJeff Cavaliere2:03:26

        Standing. Yeah, standing. Well, I mean, this, this could be do- This is standing. This is, it's just a squared-up stance standing. Um, if we wanted to get really powerful with it, I could split your stance a little bit more, 'cause now I'm focused on driving as much power from the ground up, and I could do that, too. And those are explosively performed, but still under control, right? Everything that I say is explosive is still under control. Because it's not enough to just get yourself out into that position but to control it on the way back always. So I like to su- do any of those variations. Again, we could do them even, uh, isometrically where if I have the, the, the, uh, let's say again, band in my hand and it's out in front of my body, I can jump out even further laterally, which is gonna increase the tension on the band and wanna whip myself back and to rotate towards the anchor point. Don't let it. You just, you stick, you keep your body faced straight ahead so you're, you're undergoing, like, these spontaneously increased rotational demands or these isometric rotational demands, and that's a great way to... That's a really good athletic way to train because, A, you're on your feet, but because we do get subjected to so many spontaneous forces that, that try to change body-

    25. PAPeter Attia2:04:37

        Requires stabilization.

    26. JCJeff Cavaliere2:04:38

        Yeah.

    27. PAPeter Attia2:04:38

        Yeah.

    28. JCJeff Cavaliere2:04:38

        Try to change body position, and we don't, we don't allow it. Some people that have a hard time being able to do this well, you might have seen it before, they'll take a, um, a physio ball, and they'll hug the physio ball with a cable.

    29. PAPeter Attia2:04:50

        Mm-hmm.

    30. JCJeff Cavaliere2:04:51

        So they're doing the ro- the rotation with it.
17. 2:05:23 – 2:16:00

    Back: exercises to create that V-shape

    1. PAPeter Attia2:05:23

       All right. Let's talk about Dorian Yates and the back.

    2. JCJeff Cavaliere2:05:26

       [laughs]

    3. PAPeter Attia2:05:27

       Um, again, notwithstanding the fact that, like, a bodybuilder will break this down into every possible angle-

    4. JCJeff Cavaliere2:05:33

       Yeah

    5. PAPeter Attia2:05:33

       ... of the back, but if we're just talking about this through the lens of normal people who are gonna throw 8 to 12 sets per week at the entirety of their back, inclusive of, you know, traps, rhomboids, lats, the whole thing, um, even, even the lower muscles-

    6. JCJeff Cavaliere2:05:47

       Yeah

    7. PAPeter Attia2:05:47

       ... the erector spinae muscles. How would you, how would you create a protocol? And, and again, always for the person who is saying, "Look, I wanna, I want, I want more of a V shape. You know?"

    8. JCJeff Cavaliere2:05:56

       Yeah.

    9. PAPeter Attia2:05:56

       "I wanna, I wanna, I wanna sort of taper down here a little bit. I have to get my, my lats bigger." What are the, what are the mistakes, and how do we need to train?

    10. JCJeff Cavaliere2:06:03

        The back is obviously made up of a lot of muscles, and it's a big area. The, the most effective way, I think, to look at it programmatically is to think vertical pulling, horizontal pulling, low back specific, upper back focus, right? Upper back scap- scapular-type, uh, retraction work. So the upper back work pulling versus the, either the vertical or horizontal pulling is mostly dictated again by the positioning of those elbows, like we referenced earlier. Like, the l- the, the more those elbows drift during, like, say, a seated row, and they drift higher, the more you're gonna get into that extension of the arm as the main focus. So you're gonna get more of the s- the mid back, rhomboids, uh, upper traps, mid traps. That, that's gonna be tapped into the most when you allow the elbows to drift. If you do a, a, a row, which should be a basic compound exercise to perform, then you're gonna get more of the lats if you're doing that with a tighter arm position. The issue with the row could be that someone with, uh, low back issues or weakness might find that any freestanding row position could be challenging, where they start to fatigue more in the low back prior to their lats. In that case, the chest-supported row done face down on an incline bench gives you the option to continue to overload your lats as you start to build up your, your low back strength. I don't ever recommend you do chest-supported rowing, and that's where you stay. I think everyone should be able to row under load from a standing position, and so you just have to, like, work your way up to the point where you can do that. That's where the low back strengthening comes in. Like, okay, so you're working your way up from your chest-supported row to your standing barbell row variation, but at the same time, you're working on your low back, right? You gotta ch- you gotta strengthen your low ba- low back, and there's a lotta, a lot of ways to do that. Um, I like classic hyperextensions, you know, over a physio ball. I like reverse hyperextensions. Those are two of my favorite ways to do that. I like, uh, Superman-type exercises where you're laying flat on the ground and you're raising your l- your thighs off the ground the same time that you're raising your arms up, 'cause then we can stimulate some of that upper back muscles, too.

    11. PAPeter Attia2:08:17

        Mm-hmm.

    12. JCJeff Cavaliere2:08:17

        But, like, those are the things that look a little, uh, rehab-ish, but at the same time, they're only looking rehab-ish because they're exercises that you never do, and they're exercises that target smaller areas relative to their larger ... neighbors

    13. PAPeter Attia2:08:31

        And just like, let's go through the Superman as an example. So if you're doing that, how, what constitutes a working set?

    14. JCJeff Cavaliere2:08:39

        Failure. So again, what I would do-

    15. PAPeter Attia2:08:40

        How many reps? How long a hold? How do you think about it?

    16. JCJeff Cavaliere2:08:43

        So again, these, anything where, the, especially these corrective-type exercises, 'cause I, I say corrective like you're correcting a weak low back in this case. So these corrective exercises, they should always be done with a, with a mentality of really good, high-quality repetitions.

    17. PAPeter Attia2:08:59

        Yeah.

    18. JCJeff Cavaliere2:09:00

        So like I hate when we say, "Do a set of 15 of these." I'd rather you think of that as doing 15 sets of one, right? I want you to feel every single one of those purposely in the low back. And also, in a Superman, you're trying to teach the low back to be supported by the glutes. One of the biggest reasons why we get low back issues is because the glutes are not doing their job to basically support the pelvis from below, and so it's causing the low back to have to take on more of the brunt of that, so the low back gets overworked. If you can do the exercise where you squeeze, in this case, the Superman, you squeeze your, your glutes together first, get that stability, then lift off the ground and get into this extension, then you're gonna feel it differently, but you're gonna feel it properly. So doing enough of those, um, in this one s- like 15 sets of one mentality will start to get that neuromuscular reeducation that's, that's lost, right? It's not so much about being able to overcome huge loads there. It's about being able to train the muscle neuromuscularly to start to respond more effectively. So I think when you start to do some of those exercises and work them in, and I work them into regular back day. Like it's, it's just part of... It's like, it's the end, but it's the part, like it's just no less important than the heavier vertical pull or push exercises.

    19. PAPeter Attia2:10:21

        I see. So we're gonna hit lower back primarily through the horizontal and vertical stuff. So for example, a seated unsupported cable row-

    20. JCJeff Cavaliere2:10:29

        Mm-hmm

    21. PAPeter Attia2:10:29

        ... when you're going heavy, your lower back has to do a lot of work.

    22. JCJeff Cavaliere2:10:32

        Yeah.

    23. PAPeter Attia2:10:32

        If you're doing a standing row. So the-

    24. JCJeff Cavaliere2:10:33

        More so on the standing row, yeah.

    25. PAPeter Attia2:10:34

        Yeah. So that's where you're getting lower back, but then you'll finish it with the Supermans.

    26. JCJeff Cavaliere2:10:38

        With the, with the direct work, yeah, at the end.

    27. PAPeter Attia2:10:40

        Yeah, got it.

    28. JCJeff Cavaliere2:10:40

        Yeah.

    29. PAPeter Attia2:10:41

        Okay.

    30. JCJeff Cavaliere2:10:41

        And, and, and not, and try not to be, try not to be bored with them thinking that they're something remedial. They're, they're just as important as the other exercises because they help to connect those weak links that are probably taking away some of the cap- the capacity you have on the bigger exercises 'cause they are the weak link.
18. 2:16:00 – 2:28:35

    Legs: training the quads, glutes, and more

    1. PAPeter Attia2:16:00

       about legs in any way you see fit. Do you wanna talk about, uh, quads, hamstrings? Are you gonna talk about everything from the knee to the hips as one, and let's just go through it?

    2. JCJeff Cavaliere2:16:08

       No, I think we could, I think you split them up. I think what, y- you know, I, I think of them sort of a- as anterior, posterior. Um, but even within that, I think there's exercises that str- that, that will stress the hamstrings from, uh, a lengthened s- position and those that stretch them, or stress them from a, a knee flexed position. And anteriorly, I mean, I think when we're talking about the quads, we have a lot of different options, um, from squatting that, that will do a great job. The squatting will hit the posterior chain too. So let's start with a, with a, with anterior. If you, if you were to do the anterior and you wanted a more quad-focused a- option, then there's a couple things that you could do. Number one, you can carry the weight more anteriorly, so that's why we have the front squat.

    3. PAPeter Attia2:16:55

       Front squat, cyclist squats, all these, yeah.

    4. JCJeff Cavaliere2:16:56

       Right. You know, um, that gives us a chance to, you know, direct some of the load a little bit more effectively towards the, towards the quads. I love the front squat. You have to be okay with the fact that you're not gonna be able to handle as much weight there. But again, that's almost irrelevant when we're talking about at the end of the day, it's the tension the muscle feels. It's not the-

    5. PAPeter Attia2:17:15

       Yep

    6. JCJeff Cavaliere2:17:15

       ... actual weight that's on the side of the barbell or dumbbells. So that gives you that chance. A goblet squat would be another option for that. Um, the transition between the two is a belt squat 'cause that, that weight gets directed more directly downward. I love the belt squat 'cause it doesn't require the, the, the, the loading on the back for people that don't have the strength to support that. Um, and I have an exercise that I like to do, which is a squat variation called the Spanish squat, and you basically take a, a band and you put it around the back of your knees. Take your pair of dum- usually done with dumbbells. You back away from the band. So it's, it's already... If you were to let the band pull you, it's already pulling your knees into flexion, right? It's trying to drive you into flexion. The only way to get that, that band or to, to, to get into the proper position is to drive your knees back against the resistance of that band, so you're getting really resisted terminal knee extension. Now you have your dumbbells at your, at your sides. You're, you reach down to the ground, you pick them up. Now, you squat down. As you squat down, obviously, your knees are flexing. You get down to the bottom of the squat, and you can go pretty as heavy as you can hold the dumbbells here. So you can go 60s, 80s, 100s, whatever you can hold. As you come back up to the top, you get toward that last 20 degrees or so, you have to drive your knees up against the, the resistance of that band to get that fully extended knee. It's basically taking the elements of a leg extension, but because you're doing it in a closed chain way with your feet in contact with the ground, it, it's brutal, but it's a great combination of an exercise. It takes a regular squat and it adds an element of, uh, of, of resisted n- knee extension at the end that's just amazing. Um, I like doing that. If people, um, are limited by their grip strength, right, they're not able to load heavy enough because they can't hold the, that weight, then that may not be a great option for them. But a lot of times they're overcoming that because of the added resistance of the band. Like, that makes it so difficult. Um, I also have taken, um, to Bulgarian split squats as a favorite of mine 'cause I know that I can effectively hit the quads more one leg at a time, uh, which is another benefit.

    7. PAPeter Attia2:19:25

       So when you're doing a Bulgarian or rear foot elevated-

    8. JCJeff Cavaliere2:19:29

       Yeah

    9. PAPeter Attia2:19:29

       ... you're fatiguing in the front of your leg more than the back of your leg?

    10. JCJeff Cavaliere2:19:32

        If you maintain your upright posture. So the big cue there is to maintain as tall of a, of a chest position as you can. A lot of times what we'll do is we'll go down into the exercise and, and angle forward.

    11. PAPeter Attia2:19:42

        Mm-hmm.

    12. JCJeff Cavaliere2:19:43

        Right? As we angle forward, that is gonna quickly and significantly shift the load to your posterior chain, to the glutes, and of course the quads too, but more so to the glutes as you're, as you start to lean forward more. If you maintain a- an exaggerated and not, not in, in a, in a harmful way, but an exaggerated way, your upright posture, just don't allow yourself to sink forward, then you're gonna hit the quads very strongly in that. Same thing with a reverse lunge- Absolutely one of my favorite exercises for posterior, anterior, um, d- depending upon how much angle of my torso I allow.

    13. PAPeter Attia2:20:19

        Okay.

    14. JCJeff Cavaliere2:20:19

        It's funny 'cause we're kind of talking l- legs in general anyway.

    15. PAPeter Attia2:20:22

        Yeah.

    16. JCJeff Cavaliere2:20:22

        But there, but there's, but there's a-

    17. PAPeter Attia2:20:23

        Yeah, no, I think, I think it's, it's, I, uh, it's impossible for me to think about legs as anterior-

    18. JCJeff Cavaliere2:20:27

        Right

    19. PAPeter Attia2:20:27

        ... posterior. I just think of legs as legs. And th- the sh- the, the, the balance shifts a little bit between-

    20. JCJeff Cavaliere2:20:33

        I mean, because you don't hear me-

    21. PAPeter Attia2:20:34

        ... what, how, how I, how ... If, am I lifting my heels? Am I not lifting my heels? And-

    22. JCJeff Cavaliere2:20:38

        Yeah, and you don't hear me talk much about, like, if we were, if my exercise favorites were the leg extension, you might hear me speak a little bit more like, like that. But anteriorly, I know I can shift the focus by positioning the body differently in space. But, but I don't have a lot of go-to specific, "Hey, quads. I'm really focused on the quads here," 'cause I don't do a lot of leg extensions. I don't, I, uh, th- they're not a great exercise, uh, personally for me for my knees given my history of knee issues. And for a lot of people, they don't feel so great. If you can do the exercise, and there are no issues with, with pain, it, it's, it's the equivalent of a concentration curl for the, for the, for the biceps.

    23. PAPeter Attia2:21:17

        If somebody is saying, you know, "My legs are just so skinny. I really just wanna put some muscle mass-

    24. JCJeff Cavaliere2:21:22

        Mm-hmm

    25. PAPeter Attia2:21:22

        ... on my legs," what are you saying? Is this where, "Hey, we gotta go up to 16 sets working in a day, and I want you to focus just on the compound lifts?" Or, like, what, what guiding principles do you give that person who's, who's trying to put some muscle on their legs?

    26. JCJeff Cavaliere2:21:37

        Definitely have to go, you have to go heavy enough. I think that a lot of times people don't go heavy enough with their leg training. Um, and I think that legs respond a little bit more to higher, slightly higher volumes. So I think rather than potentially doing more and more in one day, which y- you, you really start to, you know, how fast you can, you can, you can tap out when it comes to leg training. It'd be better to probably just schedule a second session in the week volume-wise, increasing the, the number of sessions that you're training legs. So that's where these options of being able to shift the focus a little bit around anterior, posterior, um, gives you some flexibility in not doing the same exact workout twice, but it gives you a chance to, to train your legs and stimulate them twice, so you have more, more opportunity. But, um, being able to build bigger legs, I mean, some of us are just never gonna be able to build them as big as others 'cause it tends to be one of those areas, like the calves, that are just genetically, um, I call 'em calves or calfnots, you know? Like, it's... And, and I'm a calfnot for sure. But, like, the, the, the leg, leg growth and size and strength and power, even from the athletes, like, it's, it's, it's, it's quite oftentimes something you're born with. And, um, but not that you can't improve at all, but that's something that's heavily inv- uh, uh, influenced by genetics.

    27. PAPeter Attia2:23:00

        So what we wanna have is a good rotation of movements, and basically say, "Look, ev- if I'm gonna just try to do it all in one day, I'm gonna get 12 to 14, 16 sets working for legs-

    28. JCJeff Cavaliere2:23:12

        Yeah

    29. PAPeter Attia2:23:12

        ... on a given day. I'm gonna pick and choose from these exercises. And I'm n- I'm not necessarily doing the same workout every time."

    30. JCJeff Cavaliere2:23:18

        Yeah, definitely not. You don't, you don't have to do the same workout every time. Uh, there, a- again, even just between, if I had to choose between a bar- a reverse barbell or dumbbell lunges and Bulgarian split squats, both similar in that leg position.

Episode duration: 2:45:30