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Peter Attia MDPeter Attia MD

Lance Armstrong: The rise, fall, and growth of a cycling legend | The Peter Attia Drive, Ep. 178

View podcast show notes page: https://bit.ly/3JiqBTM Become a member to receive exclusive content: https://bit.ly/3JsI4Ja Sign up to receive Peter's email newsletter: https://bit.ly/3mBcj6T Lance Armstrong is a legendary figure in professional cycling having won seven consecutive Tour de France titles but also a controversial figure facing scrutiny for the use of performance enhancing drugs. In this episode, Lance takes us through his meteoric rise to one of the most famous athletes in the world and his equally accelerated fall from grace. Lance describes how he persevered through his brutal diagnosis of testicular cancer before rattling off a historic run of seven consecutive Tour de France titles all while facing tremendous scrutiny for his alleged use of performance enhancing drugs such as EPO and cortisone. Lance opens up about his decision to come clean about his use of performance enhancing drugs, the remorse for how he treated other people during that time in his life, and the personal growth that’s helped him emerge on the other end of that. Finally, Lance recounts some of favorite stories from his cycling career, reflects on his legacy, and explains how he stays fit at age 50. We discuss: 00:00:00 - Intro 00:00:10 - What everyone wants to know—yes and no questions 00:02:45 - Lance’s childhood and beginnings of a great athlete 00:14:17 - Lance’s realization that he had a knack for racing after his first pro race at age 00:18:05 - The move to cycling full time and a desire to compete in the Olympics 00:22:35 - Metrics tracked early in Lance’s career and his time with Motorola team 00:31:30 - The grueling nature of the Tour de France and the beginnings of serious drug usage in cycling 00:42:36 - The impact of EPO on cycling performance 00:46:55 - Testicular cancer diagnosis—denial, torturous symptoms, and treatment 01:03:16 - Livestrong is born 01:07:02 - Return to cycling post-cancer and a crossroad in Lance’s career 01:15:35 - Lance’s rise to prominence in the late 90s and the growing use of EPO in the sport 01:31:34 - Racing in the early 2000’s, blood transfusions, and rivalry with Jan Ulrich 01:45:45 - Retirement in 2005 and a comeback in 2009 01:52:20 - Lance’s decision to come clean and tell the truth 02:00:52 - Growth through downfall: learning from his mistakes and helping others after their own fall from grace 02:12:33 - Moving forward: Living his life, reflecting on his legacy, the state of Livestrong 02:21:00 - Turning back the clock: Advice Lance would give to his 15 year-old self 02:26:56 - Keeping fit at age 50 -------- About: The Peter Attia Drive is a weekly, ultra-deep-dive podcast focusing on maximizing health, longevity, critical thinking…and a few other things. With over 35 million episodes downloaded, it features topics including fasting, ketosis, Alzheimer’s disease, cancer, mental health, and much more. Peter is a physician focusing on the applied science of longevity. His practice deals extensively with nutritional interventions, exercise physiology, sleep physiology, emotional and mental health, and pharmacology to increase lifespan (delay the onset of chronic disease), while simultaneously improving healthspan (quality of life). Learn more: https://bit.ly/3EC8tRt Connect with Peter on: Facebook: http://bit.ly/PeterAttiaMDFB Twitter: http://bit.ly/PeterAttiaMDTW Instagram: http://bit.ly/PeterAttiaMDIG Subscribe to The Drive: Apple Podcast: http://bit.ly/TheDriveApplePodcasts Overcast: http://bit.ly/TheDriveOvercast Spotify: http://bit.ly/TheDriveSpotify Google Podcasts: http://bit.ly/TheDriveGoogle

Peter AttiahostLance Armstrongguest
Oct 4, 20212h 35mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:10

    Intro

    1. PA

      [upbeat music] Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Drive podcast. I'm your host, Peter Attia. [upbeat music]

  2. 0:10 – 2:45

    What everyone wants to know—yes and no questions

    1. PA

      All right, Lance, thank you for, uh, for making time today-

    2. LA

      You bet

    3. PA

      ... to swing by.

    4. LA

      Absolutely.

    5. PA

      How does it feel to be back in Austin?

    6. LA

      It is, uh, [tsks] it's pretty surreal. I mean, uh, having been here or having lived here for 30 years, the, the, you know, I've seen the city change, and, and I saw it change as a cyclist, so y- uh, I think cyclists see, um, more stuff than most people, and you're always, you know, you're covering ground. You're finding back roads. You're, you're, you get a sense for, um, a town growing. You see, you know, you, uh, obviously, the roads get more crowded, but you see more construction trucks, and you, you figure, you're like, "Wait, this is, this place is getting built out." And so, and then if you go down the rabbit hole of hearing these offers in the real estate market, it's just, this is a different city.

    7. PA

      [chuckles] Well, before we get into-

    8. LA

      It's still a great city, though.

    9. PA

      Yeah. No, look, I, I... The only thing my wife and I could say after moving here is, "What took us so long?" So.

    10. LA

      Ah. Right.

    11. PA

      Before we get into kind of the details of, uh, of all the stuff I wanna talk about, I, I think it's just sometimes easier if we can get into some hard yes and no questions, just so that there's no ambiguity about some of the really important stuff.

    12. LA

      Okay. [chuckles]

    13. PA

      So, um-

    14. LA

      I've been here before.

    15. PA

      Yeah. I, I, I think this is gonna be familiar to you, but I, I, I want you to really limit yourself to a yes or no only, Lance.

    16. LA

      Okay.

    17. PA

      This is, these are important questions.

    18. LA

      [chuckles]

    19. PA

      Is Dura-Ace better than Campy Super Record?

    20. LA

      Yes.

    21. PA

      Is the greatest innovation in time trialing the aerodynamic water bottle?

    22. LA

      No.

    23. PA

      Is Edgar Allan Poe the greatest poet of the 19th century?

    24. LA

      Sure. [chuckles]

    25. PA

      Are today's clinchers as high performing as tubulars?

    26. LA

      Yes.

    27. PA

      Is Alberto Contador the greatest cyclist of all time?

    28. LA

      Absolutely not.

    29. PA

      Can you still ride up Alpe d'Huez in under 45 minutes?

    30. LA

      Probably not.

  3. 2:45 – 14:17

    Lance’s childhood and beginnings of a great athlete

    1. PA

      All right. Now that we've got that out of the way, talk to me about Plano, northeast suburb of Dallas.

    2. LA

      Pretty much straight north. Plano is, um, [tsks] you know, it is, uh, it lives up to its name, right? Plano is, is Spanish for flat, plano.

    3. PA

      Mm.

    4. LA

      Uh, very flat, very windy. Um, growing-- you know, that's a- another community like Austin, uh, that's drastically changed. When I was a kid growing up in Plano, you know, I would, you know, leave the house and be out in the, in the fields, and I would head up into Allen, or I'd go around Lake Lavon, or I would, um, out to Frisco. I mean, now Frisco is one of the fastest growing communities in America. Um, there was only one building out there, and that was the global headquarters for EDS. People thought Ross Perot was nuts to build, you know, the EDS headquarters there, and, and now it's, you know, Mom's still there, so I, uh, just going back is crazy. A lot of times I'll, when I visit my mo- I always take my bike everywhere, but I'll, I'll just kinda ride around and, you know, go past Dooley Elementary, where I went to middle school, and I'll go to, mm, I actually went to, uh, sorry, elementary school. And middle school was Armstrong. I'll just go by these places and just, and look at them through a 50-year-old's eyes. It's crazy. So it's, uh, um-

    5. PA

      Is it bittersweet, by the way? 'Cause like I, I hate seeing where I grew up.

    6. LA

      Yeah.

    7. PA

      I hate it with a passion. I've-- the last time I went back to look at my elementary school, I mean, it just upset me so much. I, I don't know. I mean, I could-

    8. LA

      No

    9. PA

      ... explore that a bit.

    10. LA

      No, no, no. I mean, I think, I think most people have a, s- some, uh, level of that in their lives. You're allowed to sorta hate where you grew up, uh, I think. Um, I don't wanna live there, but-

    11. PA

      Yeah

    12. LA

      ... you know, it's, it's, it's, it's fine to go back, see Mom.

    13. PA

      So y- y- your birth father is, is Eddie Gunderson, right?

    14. LA

      Mm-hmm.

    15. PA

      He left you guys when you were two. Did you ever see him again after that?

    16. LA

      Never saw him again.

    17. PA

      Do you ever want to?

    18. LA

      [tsks] Well, he's now passed away.

    19. PA

      Yeah.

    20. LA

      Um-

    21. PA

      He passed away in 2012, if I'm-

    22. LA

      I, y- no. Eh. That's a good g- maybe around there. Um, and from what I hear, he died of a spider bite. Maybe that led to some other complications, but, um, I never had a desire, um, to sort of reconnect with him, um, for most of my life, and even, you know, of course now it would be too late, but I might have a different view of that now. Uh-

    23. PA

      Did he ever reach out to you?

    24. LA

      He, uh, not directly. You know, when, when, after the first Tour win in '99, um, people reached out to him, so a lot of the press and journalists, they wanted the story. Um, and his, I mean, his interviews were just, you know, th- they were totally inappropriate, you know, the comments about my mom that, you know, that far, uh, down the road. Um, but like, I mean, he, they were-

    25. PA

      Meaning he had disparaging things to say about your mom, or?

    26. LA

      Yeah, yeah. And so, uh, you know- But I mean, the, the, the, [laughs] I don't think Eddie was a, uh, was a Rhodes Scholar.

    27. PA

      So how long after... Or how old were you when she met and/or married Terry Armstrong?

    28. LA

      So I would've been three or four. Yeah. Right. And so that's where the name comes from, right? That's... I wasn't born Lance Armstrong. [laughs] Um, funny thing is my initials would've been LEG if I would've stayed Lance Edward Gunderson. But yeah, she became obviously Lynn Armstrong, and I became Lance Armstrong.

    29. PA

      You've told me stories in the past, and I know you've spoken a bit publicly about Terry and kind of how strict he was and... Did you ever think of him as a father? Did he feel that way to you in any way, shape, or form?

    30. LA

      Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah, I didn't, uh... You know, as a five, six, seven-year-old kid, you don't know, you know, you, you, you're, you, you have your mother and, and I knew he wasn't my biological father, but, you know, but we had a roof over our heads and, and my mom seemed happy and, and so, yeah, at, at a young age, um... And he wasn't, uh, when you say violent, I mean, he, he was just strict. I mean, it was every little thing got you in trouble [laughs] and I mean, shit, if I did, if I look at my kids' lives and, you know, if they leave their drawer open, I walk by and I'm like... First of all, I don't care if they leave [laughs] their drawer open. That would've been a big deal to him.

  4. 14:17 – 18:05

    Lance’s realization that he had a knack for racing after his first pro race at age

    1. LA

      Group rides.

    2. PA

      When did it become clear to you that you had a knack for this at the level of... I mean, was it that one race that everybody talks about where you were right at the front with Mark Allen, and you're 15 years old, and at the time, you know, Mark Allen must have been one of the top three professional triathletes in the world?

    3. LA

      Yeah, by far. Well, that was my first pro race. That was the President's Triathlon, uh, in Dallas.

    4. PA

      That was '86?

    5. LA

      That would've been '87.

    6. PA

      '87.

    7. LA

      '87, 'cause I did the President's in '86, which was out at Lake Lavon. It was a longer format, uh, or longer distance, and then they moved it over to Las Colinas where the old Cowboys facility was in '87, and they made it an Olympic distance. And I was training with some guys and, and they said, "Well, you should just turn pro and go try it." [laughs] I was 15 years old. And so... Uh, but I was swimming my ass off. I mean, I was a great swimmer, so I came out-- I knew I was gonna come out of the water with the leaders.

    8. PA

      So this is Olympic distance, so you're coming out of the water under 20 minutes.

    9. LA

      Oh, easy. Yeah, yeah.

    10. PA

      And then you hop on the bike.

    11. LA

      Hop on the bike.

    12. PA

      You're going under an hour. You're going, what-

    13. LA

      Yep

    14. PA

      ... 55 minutes?

    15. LA

      Yep. This is, uh, well, this is pre-aerobars, although actually that might have been the year. Andrew McNaughton flew away on the bike. He had the bars, the original Scott aerobars. And then I rode with Allen the whole time on the bike, and I'm sure he was... You know, those, they all race each other every week-

    16. PA

      Yeah, yeah, yeah

    17. LA

      ... and they know-

    18. PA

      Was Dave Scott there too?

    19. LA

      Uh, I don't know if Dave was there.

    20. PA

      Mike Pigg would've been there?

    21. LA

      Pigg might've been there. Um, the Big Kiwi. Um, anyways, it was, it was... So I got, I, I rode with Allen, but I'm sure he's looking at me going, "Who the fuck is this person, this guy, this kid?" And then, uh, you know, a guy like Mark Allen can get off and run 32.

    22. PA

      And you would run what, a 36 after that?

    23. LA

      Oh, I was running... No, no, probably more, right, 38 or 39. And so I, I think I ended up fifth or sixth and, uh, that was-- [laughs] I was like, "Okay, I can do this."

    24. PA

      Was the bike different compared to swimming and running for you? Like, was there a gear that you felt you had there that you didn't have in the other two?

    25. LA

      I don't know about a gear, but it was a, the experience was certainly different. I mean-

    26. PA

      How so? I mean, I know it is, but what did you feel that was different?

    27. LA

      Well, it's, it's, uh, just like I s- I said at the top, you know, uh, uh, being outside. I mean, think about the life of a, of a full-time essentially professional swimmer. You, you spend, and-

    28. PA

      Yeah, you're looking at a black line

    29. LA

      ... I don't think people really appreciate how much time swimmers devote to their sport and how much distance they cover. I mean, when we were 13, 14, 15, we were swimming, um... You know, there'd be days we'd do, swim 10 miles a day. Like, if somebody said they run 10 miles a day, I would say, "You're a fucking badass." Swimming? That's two a day, so 5:30 AM morning practice for an hour and two hours in the afternoon. Um, you're covering some ground, and you're staring at a black line the whole time. That's why swimmers are crazy.

    30. PA

      Well, and the funny thing is most people don't appreciate that the swim to run ratio is about four to one, so when you say somebody swims 10 miles a day, that's comparable metabolically-

  5. 18:05 – 22:35

    The move to cycling full time and a desire to compete in the Olympics

    1. PA

      that Triathlons were awesome, but at some point you, you got this des- you got this desire to go to the Olympics.

    2. LA

      Mm-hmm.

    3. PA

      And you realize that of the-

    4. LA

      What, what kid doesn't wanna go to the Olympics?

    5. PA

      [chuckles] Yeah. Well, at some point you realize, look-

    6. LA

      Yeah

    7. PA

      ... my quickest path there is probably gonna be on the bike.

    8. LA

      Yep.

    9. PA

      And I'm guessing that was the late '80s you kind of had that realization?

    10. LA

      Um, well, I, I, yeah, I, I, I started to transition to s- full-time cycling in '89, still doing tri, so I did them also in '89 and '90. Um, went to the Junior World Championships in Moscow in 1989. Um, but i- in my mind, I, I just assumed triathlon would be an Olympic sport. It is the ultimate. I mean, w- the, the best sports in the Olympics are swimming and cycling and running. Like, why wouldn't we combine them and make this an Olympic sport? Well, this is in the late '80s, early '90s.

    11. PA

      Right, it wouldn't be till 2000, right?

    12. LA

      In 2000 in Sydney was the first time. No- nobody knew that. But, um, yeah, so I switched over basically full-time in, uh, in, uh, 1991, 1990 or '91.

    13. PA

      Which is kind of amazing to now fast-forward to '93. Um, what expectations did you have going into Oslo, into that road race for the World Championship?

    14. LA

      Well, the, the one thing that did happen is I, I fulfilled-

    15. PA

      You went to the Olympics, actually

    16. LA

      ... went to the Olympics.

    17. PA

      You did go to Barcelona.

    18. LA

      I fulfilled that dream, going to the Barcelona Games.

    19. PA

      You did road race or time trial? What did you do?

    20. LA

      N- they didn't have the time trial back then. They had, uh... And I wanna say, I think we had team time trial. I did the road race. I don't think I did the TTT.

    21. PA

      How many cyclists went for the US?

    22. LA

      Boy, you're making me think a lot. I mean, this is a long time ago, Peter. This is 30 years ago, so I don't know, three or four.

    23. PA

      But this was back in the day when you couldn't, you didn't have pros there, right?

    24. LA

      [lip smacks] No pros. Yeah, they added the pros in '96. You had pro... And that was the-

    25. PA

      So who were the best amateurs then? Bobby Julich, you.

    26. LA

      Yeah, and then, um, you know, the international guy, the Italians were amazing.

    27. PA

      Yeah.

    28. LA

      Casertelli, uh, who we lost, uh, in '95.

    29. PA

      He won-

    30. LA

      He won the Olympic Games

  6. 22:35 – 31:30

    Metrics tracked early in Lance’s career and his time with Motorola team

    1. LA

      it took, it took me a few years.

    2. PA

      What metrics were you guys looking at then? Were you mostly just relying on heart rate?

    3. LA

      Not even. I mean, going back then, we'd, heart rate monitors, and we were sp- uh, when I got on Motorola, we were sponsored by Polar, and so we had some of the earliest heart rate monitors. These things were as, I mean, I'm sure you could still find them. I mean, they were massive.

    4. PA

      [chuckles]

    5. LA

      These things were, [chuckles] they fuck like bricks.

    6. PA

      Legitimately component of weight to the bike.

    7. LA

      Yeah, and that was it. I mean, and that was sort of the first, you know, obviously no power meters, no, uh, no testing. I mean, we just, you know, you just looked at the heart rate.

    8. PA

      So did you have any me- metrics or insights into your physiology being unique at the time? I mean, did you figure out what your maximum heart rate was? I mean, we'll get to it later, but I remember you telling me during, I don't remember which time trial it was, you were telling me about in one of, one of your tours that you were able to hold a heart rate of 200 beats per minute for the entire TT.

    9. LA

      Yeah. That was, that was later. Um, I think the first time I really, um, thought I, I had an engine, so to speak, and maybe 'cause they, they told me that, is I, I, they were doing a study at the Cooper Clinic in Dallas, and of course, I was living in Plano, so I, and it was a treadmill test, and they wanted me to, and they were d- uh, I forget what the original study was, but it's got a funny ending to the story. It was all about core temp. And so I went down and did a, a running VO2 test, and the guy was like, "Oh." I mean, it was, I killed this thing. And then, [chuckles] then they, and, uh, you-

    10. PA

      Do you remember what your VO2 max was then?

    11. LA

      No. No. But the guy was like, "Okay, this, this kid's special." And, and then they said, "Well, look, we'd like you to come back next week because we're doing this whole core temp study, and, but this time you're gonna have to do it with some sort of-

    12. PA

      Probe in the-

    13. LA

      Exactly.

    14. PA

      Yeah.

    15. LA

      And I'm 15.

    16. PA

      [laughs]

    17. LA

      And this guy says he's gonna shove something up my ass, and I am terrified. I'm like, "Ah." [laughs] I never went back. [laughs] So to that, uh, research.

    18. PA

      So to this day, we have no idea what your core temperature response would've been under that-

    19. LA

      Yeah

    20. PA

      ... aerobic load. Well, you wanna do that test, we can do it again.

    21. LA

      You know, I know enough to know that I run hot, so that, I'm gonna leave it at that.

    22. PA

      Um, so, so Motorola was '93.

    23. LA

      I went, I w- I went to Motorola in, uh, actually in '92. I was the only amateur on the team.

    24. PA

      Steve Bauer was on that team.

    25. LA

      Bauer was there, Phil Anderson, Andy Hampsten.

    26. PA

      So, so by the way, Steve Bauer is why a kid growing up in Canada like me was obsessed with cycling-

    27. LA

      Yep

    28. PA

      ... growing up, right?

    29. LA

      Yep.

    30. PA

      So I was one of, like, 12 people in North America that loved cycling, followed it.

  7. 31:30 – 42:36

    The grueling nature of the Tour de France and the beginnings of serious drug usage in cycling

    1. PA

      So I think another thing that most people don't understand about cycling is, or certainly about the, about the Tour, is that because of how grueling it is, which again, I can't tell you I understand because-

    2. LA

      Mm-hmm

    3. PA

      ... obviously I've never done it, but as much as somebody who's never understood it or has never done it, I feel like I at least have some appreciation for it 'cause I understand physiology. There's nothing about it that's reasonable, right?

    4. LA

      Mm-hmm. [laughs]

    5. PA

      Like, there's nothing about doing that that is-

    6. LA

      Right

    7. PA

      ... physiologically appropriate or in any way, shape, or form promotes a person's health, right? It, like, a, a rider at the end of the Tour is probably the least healthy they, they could-

    8. LA

      Mm-hmm

    9. PA

      ... ever be. Um, and as a result of that, there's no era in the history of this bike race where cyclists haven't turned to substances.

    10. LA

      Mm.

    11. PA

      Um, and, and whether they're banned or not banned is really a semantic point, right? But, you know, in the earliest renditions of this race, riders were using alcohol to numb pain or traditional painkillers, cocaine-

    12. LA

      Okay. Yeah

    13. PA

      ... more sophisticated amphetamines. What-

    14. LA

      Or hopping on trains.

    15. PA

      [laughs] Yeah, exactly. Grabbing cars.

    16. LA

      Yeah.

    17. PA

      Literally just getting yanked up mountains. Um, what was the environment like, not that you were there, but you r- you overlapped with guys that were there in the '80s.

    18. LA

      Yep.

    19. PA

      Was there an environment of testing of anything? Like, were people looking at hematocrit to see if people bl- like actually blood doped-

    20. LA

      Mm-hmm

    21. PA

      ... let alone using EPO? Were they testing for cortisone or testosterone or other hormones?

    22. LA

      [tsks] Um, I don't, uh, I have to go back in, I mean, I, like for example, in, in '93 when I won a stage in the Tour, I won the Worlds, w- I was tested.

    23. PA

      You were tested? Okay.

    24. LA

      Yeah. Um-

    25. PA

      And-

    26. LA

      But that's not, you know-

    27. PA

      Now, you acknowledge that back then you were using things like cortisone.

    28. LA

      Right.

    29. PA

      Were you worried that those things would show up, or were you just making sure that they were out of your system by the time you were racing?

    30. LA

      Well, you know, the, the, um, what the w- what the, um, [tsks] the way to go about that in the day was just a TUE, so a, a therapeutic use exemption, and, and, you know, a lot of these compounds come in different forms and different, uh, form factors and different administrations, and so y- you know, you could say, "Well, you know, I've got tendonitis in the knee," and so they, that's how they-

  8. 42:36 – 46:55

    The impact of EPO on cycling performance

    1. PA

      So going into the '96 season, that's the year you decided it was time to, to, to start moving into the high octane world, correct?

    2. LA

      Mm-hmm.

    3. PA

      Did you-

    4. LA

      Actually, no, we, we, we, we made that decision in '95.

    5. PA

      Oh, you did?

    6. LA

      Yeah.

    7. PA

      Okay.

    8. LA

      Yeah. '96 I was-- I, I, I joined Ferrari, so that was-

    9. PA

      So you-- So in '95, you were sort of doing freestyle EPO?

    10. LA

      [lips smack] Um-

    11. PA

      Managing it on your own?

    12. LA

      Yeah. I mean, the, the-- We had, you know, there was, there was medical care, there was guidance. I mean, this isn't, you know, I think that would be a bad idea to just go off and do that on your own. But there was, there was some oversight.

    13. PA

      And would you manage it to a c- a certain hematocrit? Is that effectively what was being done?

    14. LA

      They weren't testing-- They didn't start testing for hematocrit until, I wanna say '98 or nine- They, they started testing, d- doing those sort of morning hematocrit tests while I was out of the sport. Um, so but, but in '95 and '96, they didn't.

    15. PA

      No, no, I don't mean the race organizers. I mean, were the doctors using hematocrit-

    16. LA

      Oh, yeah

    17. PA

      ... as a way to gu- get-

    18. LA

      Yeah

    19. PA

      ... uh, guide your EPO level-

    20. LA

      Yeah, yeah

    21. PA

      ... and your, your dose?

    22. LA

      Or hem- and hemoglobin.

    23. PA

      Yeah, yeah. So what is your normal hemoglobin? Like, d- like, what is it today?

    24. LA

      Low. Well, yeah, yeah, uh, that's a good question. Yeah. Uh, since we live in Aspen now, I'm sure it's, it's, it's probably 45 or 46, but, you know, uh, if I lived here in Austin, it'd, it would be in the low 40s.

    25. PA

      And so do you remember when you started doing EPO in '95? Presumably, they gave you enough EPO to bring your hematocrit up to 50, I would guess, is where they kinda wanted you.

    26. LA

      Well, there was-- 50 was not, um, uh, [chuckles] th- th-

    27. PA

      I know that there was no ceiling.

    28. LA

      Right.

    29. PA

      But did they have concern about blood clotting and things like that?

    30. LA

      Um, [lips smack] not at 50, and maybe not even at 60. I mean, there are people on Everest that you'd know, you know better than me-

  9. 46:55 – 1:03:16

    Testicular cancer diagnosis—denial, torturous symptoms, and treatment

    1. PA

      '96, you should be in top form, and you're sick as hell in the Tour, you pull out.

    2. LA

      Yep.

    3. PA

      Bronchitis.

    4. LA

      Yeah, I, I thought I was just sick.

    5. PA

      Yeah.

    6. LA

      Um, and I was certain, and I was definitely sick of being there. [chuckles] It was just-- It was shit weather that year, and I wasn't riding that well, and I was ready to go home.

    7. PA

      When did you notice the testicular pain?

    8. LA

      [lips smack] Certainly then. Um, but I just, you know, soreness, uh, that was the first symptom, right? Just, just enlarged testicle, sore, um, uh, on every level, sore to the touch, sore to sit on a seat. You know, if you crossed your legs, uh, in an awkward way, it would hurt, and I just thought, I thought it had to do with sitting on a bike seat all the time.

    9. PA

      Which is, you know, I've heard you say that before, and I've always thought it's kinda funny because you'd been sitting on a bike for 10 years at that point.

    10. LA

      I know, but then you're also-

    11. PA

      I mean, you're rationalizing it to yourself.

    12. LA

      Right, and, and I, you know, nobody-- I, I was growing up, and just e-even to this day, I just rarely get sick. Like I, you know, I, I, I just didn't have, and I certainly didn't think that I would ever be in that position. But, um, and I just, I, I just, it was ignore after ignore, even as the symptoms sort of became more and more drastically significant. I just, I j- I just kept going. I had an excuse for all of them.

    13. PA

      Did you have any headaches?

    14. LA

      [lips smack] I had one big episode, uh, that was right before diagnosis. Yeah. A, a massive headache.

    15. PA

      Massive headache.

    16. LA

      Massive.

    17. PA

      Any visual changes or anything?

    18. LA

      The next day. Yeah, so the visual Um, so, uh, uh, um, it, uh, it was here in Austin, actually. I w- they used to have a, a venue, um, south of town. Uh, what was it called? I forget, but I went to a Jimmy Buffett concert, and I got a huge headache at the concert. And, uh, next day woke up, blurry vision. And even then I'm pushing through it. I'm like, "Okay, headache 'cause I was at a concert, had maybe a couple beers." Now, you're not supposed to have the headache while you're having the beers. It's supposed to be the next day.

    19. PA

      Right.

    20. LA

      Then the blurry vision. Well, I'm, you know, I might need to get some glasses. Uh, and then probably a week after that was the, you know, was the one that sent me to the doc.

    21. PA

      Just-

    22. LA

      The coughing

    23. PA

      ... coughing up blood everywhere.

    24. LA

      Yeah, everywhere.

    25. PA

      That's October 2nd.

    26. LA

      That was, um, uh, no. No, because the, the, um... I mean, it would've been ma- maybe October 1st because the blood episode happened, you know, coughing up the blood, spitting it out, and, and, um, called my buddy who was a n- a neighbor, he's a doctor. I said, "I don't know, but you're coughing up blood. Can you come look at it?" And, you know, um, cosmetic surgeon, not a, not an oncologist, not a, you know, sort of looked in my nose and my, down my throat and, you know, he thought... And I had rinsed out the sink.

    27. PA

      So he didn't see how much was there?

    28. LA

      He didn't see how much blood there was there.

    29. PA

      Did it scare you?

    30. LA

      Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I, I obviously didn't do a good enough job telling him how much blood was in the sink. Um, so he thought it was a sinus thing. Your sinuses are dry, they crack, you cough up a little blood.

  10. 1:03:16 – 1:07:02

    Livestrong is born

    1. PA

      Which is interesting because it seems like very early on you, you, you, you sort of latched onto an important idea, right? Which was, um, people need help navigating this system.

    2. LA

      Mm-hmm.

    3. PA

      And you obviously felt moved at a very early, uh, point in your disease and recovery-

    4. LA

      Mm-hmm

    5. PA

      ... to create a foundation that you ultimately would. Uh, w- what do you think was part of the impetus for that in your experience?

    6. LA

      It just, it, it just, you know... Even as modest as the expectations were, it was like, let's just do, like... Y- and you could think about it a lot of different ways. It wasn't so much about navigation at the time. It was more about here you have a, a disease or a type of cancer with a huge stigma around it. You have young men that, you know, like me, that are, if they have swelling or pain, they're not gonna go out and, and like advertise that and, and seek, or, you know, most likely not seek help until it's a problem. Um, so just trying to bring awareness to that and, you know, we thought... We, we'd started a bike ride here in Austin. We thought we'd maybe get a few people out there, donate some money. We, we had no plan. I mean, it was... But it just felt like the time to do something.

    7. PA

      Was it sort of a pay it forward thing? Like, you were just so happy to be alive that you were like, "I just have to share some of this?"

    8. LA

      Well, we start... Yeah. Well, we started it before. I mean, we started ear- I should say we started it during. So the... Wasn't entirely sure that there was gonna be a forward, but...

    9. PA

      It's interesting. Obviously, the foundation would grow to over a half a billion dollar in-

    10. LA

      Mm-hmm

    11. PA

      ... um, in, in, in money raised. And I think what a lot of people don't appreciate, um, but I always appreciated, was that that money was very specific in that it wasn't directed towards research. And you might say, "Well, God, that doesn't make sense. Shouldn't all money in cancer be towards research?" But I always thought it was a really great thing that the money wasn't directed towards research because there are a lot of dollars directed towards research, and there are not a lot of dollars directed towards the other things.

    12. LA

      Yeah.

    13. PA

      Research is imperative. It must be, and it should be by far the largest-

    14. LA

      Right

    15. PA

      ... allocation of resources within a portfolio that's trying to address cancer. But it's this other stuff, this softer stuff-

    16. LA

      Mm-hmm

    17. PA

      ... of how do you help a family that can't afford the travel for, you know-

    18. LA

      Yeah

    19. PA

      ... the, the child with cancer? How do you provide the resources for somebody? And then, of course, there are... You know, you inspired a lot of other people like Fertility Hope and other people to come along-

    20. LA

      Yep

    21. PA

      ... and address other problems-

    22. LA

      Yep

    23. PA

      ... that, um, just probably didn't get enough attention.

    24. LA

      And on the advocacy side.

    25. PA

      Yeah.

    26. LA

      I mean, my answer to, I agree with everything you said. Uh, you, you have to raise, [sighs] you know, billions and billions, maybe even trillions to, to, to properly... I mean, there's only one person that can fund that, and that's, you know, those are federal governments. And, um, and so... But on the advocacy side, because we ended up gaining so much power, uh, just with the story and, and, and the brand of Livestrong, I mean, we advocated here in the state of Texas for, for, uh, uh, a bond initiative that, that, that created the, what we called CPRIT, the Cancer Prevention Research Institute of Texas. It's a $3 billion bond initiative. We at, you know, at the time, Livestrong spent about 600 grand on that initiative. So, um, picking the best lobbyists, you know, all, all the strategy, right? Well, you know, I, I see the 600, but I view that as we just funded-

    27. PA

      That's an Archimedes lever-

    28. LA

      Yeah

    29. PA

      ... right? Like, yeah.

    30. LA

      We, we funded $3 billion in, in, in research and prevention. So otherwise, you, you could never go out and You can't sell enough yellow bands to, to do that.

  11. 1:07:02 – 1:15:35

    Return to cycling post-cancer and a crossroad in Lance’s career

    1. PA

      So when did you decide, yeah, like not only am I well enough to, to come back, but, um... A- And remind me, where, had you alread- did you already have the contract with Cofidis prior to getting sick?

    2. LA

      Yep. Yep.

    3. PA

      Motorola had already-

    4. LA

      Motorola folded

    5. PA

      ... folded. Okay, so you're already orig- you're already officially on, on Cofidis.

    6. LA

      Yep.

    7. PA

      And then you come back, and what are they thinking?

    8. LA

      [lip smack] Well, they, they, they w- they were, I mean, before they even, there was no com- I mean, th- th- they, uh, they sent a representative over, and, uh, it's crazy that, uh, uh, they're still in the sport. Um, they sent somebody to, uh, to the US to basically say, "Listen, this is probably best he just-"

    9. PA

      They sent somebody to evaluate you, to come and lay eyes on you?

    10. LA

      Yeah, lay eyes on me, but then have a conversation with my agent and say, "Look, you know, we, we feel like we should probably just part ways." [laughs]

    11. PA

      And your contract was a big contract, right? I mean, this was like a million-dollar contract.

    12. LA

      Yep. Yep. Yeah, we didn't let them part ways.

    13. PA

      [lip smack] So you, you, you were officially with, with that team for a year?

    14. LA

      [lip smack] For, yeah. Yeah, so nine- '97.

    15. PA

      Did you ride?

    16. LA

      Nope.

    17. PA

      Okay. So they don't renew your contract, obviously, at the end of '97.

    18. LA

      So, and I had a, the other interesting thing, which I don't think has been talked about much, I had a disability policy, which typically is for, you know, injuries, crashes, anything that, you know, makes you, uh, disabled enough you can't, uh, turn the crank. And, but cancer, in a, uh, you know, in a way fell under that, so I, I took the disability policy, or started to take it, and the deal was if you go back and race again, then it, it stops.

    19. PA

      It voids it, yeah.

    20. LA

      And so, and I think it was a three-year payout, and I thought, "God, this might be a good off-ramp," right? "I'll just..." And so, uh, until it wasn't. [laughs] Until it wasn't, then I decided to stay on the highway, but.

    21. PA

      But it wasn't easy, right? Because it wasn't like anyone was clamoring at your door in '98.

    22. LA

      No, no. No- nobody was. Yeah, I mean, that, that... When we went back out to, uh, to sort of shop m- me to teams, um, zero, zero interest, right? E- Even, not even, I mean, Postal was really not that interested.

    23. PA

      What do you think changed their mind?

    24. LA

      Well, the only reason, I mean, I was, you have to go, you know, you have to go back, follow it backwards. But I mean, Postal, the team Postal, which was owned by Tom Weisel, had been around. I was on Weisel's team before Motorola, so I had history there. I had relationships. I had a, obviously a, a relationship with him. Um, so, you know, maybe it was that, but it wasn't, it, it wasn't a cold call. Like, I was essentially going back to Weisel's team 'cause I left Subaru-Montgomery-

    25. PA

      Right

    26. LA

      ... to go to Motorola.

    27. PA

      Now, your, your, they gave you 200K or something like that as a base?

    28. LA

      Yeah, I think that's-

    29. PA

      And, and then a bunch of performance bonuses, right?

    30. LA

      Well, I, I, uh, yeah, I negotiated like, uh, like a thousand bucks. Back then, again, the, I loved the way, and, and I really did, I loved the way the sport was structured, the World Cups, UCI points. You had a number one ranked rider in the world. Like, that's a fucking cool deal. Like, when I watch golf or tennis or-

  12. 1:15:35 – 1:31:34

    Lance’s rise to prominence in the late 90s and the growing use of EPO in the sport

    1. PA

      So really the mainstay of drug when you came back was EPO.

    2. LA

      Yep.

    3. PA

      Um-

    4. LA

      And cortisone.

    5. PA

      And, yeah, it's amazing that cortisone helped that much, huh?

    6. LA

      Um, yeah. You know, that, it, I'm surprised you haven't... [laughs] It's, it's, it, it's helpful-

    7. PA

      How would you guys administer it? Intramuscularly?

    8. LA

      Yeah. It's helpful to shed weight primarily, and especially as a, as a, as a bulkier guy, um, trying to shed upper body muscle.

    9. PA

      Yeah.

    10. LA

      Very helpful.

    11. PA

      Unbelievable.

    12. LA

      Mm-hmm.

    13. PA

      Um, so '98 comes to an end. You, you finish unbelievably, right? Fourth in the Vuelta.

    14. LA

      I was fourth in everything. Fourth at the Vuelta, fourth at the Worlds TT, fourth at the Worlds road race. I just was like, "Shit, I'm fourth in everything."

    15. PA

      Yeah.

    16. LA

      But I got 1,000-plus UCI points that Tom Weisel had to pay.

    17. PA

      Well, not only that, but you've done it kind of not at your best, right? Like, you're only, you know, you, you, you really only came back into shape for-

    18. LA

      Mm-hmm

    19. PA

      ... nine months. So you decide at the end of '98, "No, I'm coming back in '99." Like, now it's-

    20. LA

      Yeah

    21. PA

      ... I'm all in.

    22. LA

      Yep.

    23. PA

      At that point, did you-

    24. LA

      Hired Bruyneel.

    25. PA

      Okay.

    26. LA

      The big, that was-

    27. PA

      Yep

    28. LA

      ... that was the big... You know, the team was, uh-

    29. PA

      Who was the, uh, directeur sportif?

    30. LA

      Johnny Weltz was the directeur sportif in '98, and it, it, this, uh, Peter, when I say this team was unorganized, like you cannot, [snorts] you, you cannot believe it. It was such a shit show. We, we had-

  13. 1:31:34 – 1:45:45

    Racing in the early 2000’s, blood transfusions, and rivalry with Jan Ulrich

    1. PA

      So in 2000, you come back. I wanna ask you about Ventoux. What was going on between you and Pantani there? Were you guys talking? What was-

    2. LA

      I was trying to tell him that he, yeah, I thought, I, I was gonna give him the win, which is one of the biggest regrets of my career.

    3. PA

      Why?

    4. LA

      Because you don't, uh, and it's, you know, it, not on the Ventoux, and that's why, I mean, Merckx called me when I was on the car ride down. He said, "You don't ever gift the Ventoux, ever."

    5. PA

      Why did you wanna gift it to him?

    6. LA

      I, I was just, I mean, I was gonna win the Tour. I knew I was gonna win the Tour. I was just, you know, I was actually trying to be gracious and be sort of the, the patron of the peloton, like, "Look, you know, I don't need to win everything here. You go win the Ventoux, and you go," and, but in hindsight, God, and may he rest in peace. I mean, I, I'm just not, I'm not talking about Pantani. I'm just talking about, um... I'm talking about the Ventoux, right? Which is just, you just don't give that one away.

    7. PA

      And Merckx called you on the car ride down.

    8. LA

      Yeah. Don't ever, you never. It's this huge mistake. You never gift the Ventoux.

    9. PA

      [chuckles] Um, is Merckx the greatest cyclist of all time?

    10. LA

      Of course.

    11. PA

      If Merckx-

    12. LA

      Different sport. Different sport.

    13. PA

      Yeah, different sport

    14. LA

      Different, different sport, but-

    15. PA

      If Merckx were riding today, with the sport being so much more specialized, where would he choose to focus hi- his energy?

    16. LA

      Oh, the tours.

    17. PA

      Would he be on the Grand Tours?

    18. LA

      Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

    19. PA

      Um-

    20. LA

      Very different sport now, though, I mean.

    21. PA

      Half Man Half Bike is a biography of Merckx that I love, and you, you gave me one of the most amazing gifts ever-

    22. LA

      Mm

    23. PA

      ... which is that book that's sitting on my coffee table.

    24. LA

      I saw it on the coffee table. I was psyched. [laughs]

    25. PA

      Dude, greatest fan.

    26. LA

      I saw it and I was like, "Oh, Peter has one of those too." And I was like, "Wait, you dumbass, you, you gave it to him." [chuckles]

    27. PA

      Yeah. [chuckles]

    28. LA

      Yeah, it's a cool book.

    29. PA

      It's, it's unbelievable. Um, I would recommend anybody who's interested in cycling reading Half Man Half Bike because you can't really understand what-

    30. LA

      Mm-hmm

  14. 1:45:45 – 1:52:20

    Retirement in 2005 and a comeback in 2009

    1. PA

      So let's fast-forward to the end of '05, right? You've won seven. You at the time said, um, "Look, I wanna spend more time on the foundation. I wanna spend more time with the family." I assume those were the real reasons you wanted to retire.

    2. LA

      I think that's right. Yeah, I mean it.

    3. PA

      When you came back, the w- w- was it, uh, LeBlanc wrote an open letter basically telling you not to, right? What was that about?

    4. LA

      He, uh, you know, Jan, uh, uh, um, Jean-Marie LeBlanc was, was an icon. I mean, he was a, he was the, the, you know, the director, Director Général of the Tour, all of the, you know, he was... And yeah, I think, uh, oh, a- a- and, and he'll go down as being viewed as one of the greatest directors, um, ever. And, and a very, very tough guy. You know, it was his way or the highway, and you j- you just didn't cross Jean-Marie. And, and, but the sport had started to, uh, you know, I retire, Landis wins, Landis tests positive. So it was a Festina-esque moment in time in cycling, and, and yet another shift to, like, guys looking around and going, "Wait a minute. All right. We might be extinct here if we don't fucking clean this up." And so the sport was sh- was shifting to, to a better place.

    5. PA

      Yeah.

    6. LA

      And Jan's, or no, uh, Jean-Marie's point was, um, "Look, you, you are a bridge to the past." Right? "So the sport has evolved. You are part of the old, old culture, and it's not good for the sp-" And, and, and you know what? He's exactly right. So I remember, uh, I remember when he wrote it, and I think they printed it in, uh, the two big political papers, Le Monde and Le Figaro. I think it was in, uh, Le Figaro. And I just thought... And it was interesting 'cause I was in, I was in West Texas with Anna out in Marfa, one of my favorite places. And, uh-

    7. PA

      Where you just went recently.

    8. LA

      Yep. And, and we had just gotten together. She had just gotten, or she'd just got pregnant. We'd, you know. But she didn't, she wasn't with me when I raced before. And we were out there, and we went to this ca- This is so crazy. We were in Fort Davis outside Marfa and went to this, uh, lunch spot. And I said, "This is a mistake."

    9. PA

      Coming back?

    10. LA

      Yeah. I said, "I can't. I, I, I shouldn't do this."

    11. PA

      By the way, did LeBlanc actually call you as well-

    12. LA

      Mm-mm

    13. PA

      ... to follow up?

    14. LA

      Not that I remember.

    15. PA

      Do you think he would've been more persuasive?

    16. LA

      No.

    17. PA

      So why did you, why did you do it?

    18. LA

      Well, it was, [sighs] you know, I mean, it, it, the wheels were in motion. Like, it was al... I felt a ton of, um, responsibility or, you know-

    19. PA

      To the foundation?

    20. LA

      Yeah, all of it. I mean, all the, all the sponsors were excited. The foundation was excited. The da, da, da. And, you know, it would've been so easy to s- a- and it felt like quitting. Like, you can call me a lot of things. You cannot call me a quitter. I don't quit at anything. And, and, and, but it would've been easy to say, "You know, we, the, the routine," you know, some bullshit, and just got out, and it would've been three days of press where it's like, "Oh, what happened?"

    21. PA

      And your view at that point is the sport's clean, so-

    22. LA

      Yeah

    23. PA

      ... there's no risk to me because I don't need to use anything 'cause no one else is using anything? Was that kind of your view?

    24. LA

      Um, that, that was, uh, the best I could tell, yeah. I mean, I knew I wasn't. That, so that sort of phase two or phase whatever, the comeback years, was clean Absolutely. And ironically, Ferrari was the one who was adamant. He's like, "They are coming for you." And so he was, you know, we just didn't cross the line.

    25. PA

      So '09 is kind of close, right? Your third.

    26. LA

      Mm-hmm.

    27. PA

      And then 10-

    28. LA

      No, it wasn't close. I mean, it wasn't even, it wasn't close at all, but-

    29. PA

      Third is good. I, I mean, meaning you're on the podium.

    30. LA

      Yeah, yeah.

  15. 1:52:20 – 2:00:52

    Lance’s decision to come clean and tell the truth

    1. PA

      Hmm. When did you realize that you had to tell the truth?

    2. LA

      Um, I think when I knew that, that they, they, uh, either interviewed George or George went to the grand jury. I, I knew that was-

    3. PA

      So fall of '12, basically.

    4. LA

      [sighs] I don't kn- it might've been earlier.

    5. PA

      Yeah.

    6. LA

      Yeah.

    7. PA

      You know, it's funny, uh, it, I, this is gonna sound incredibly naive, I actually believed you guys were not on PEDs at the time. So y- my view was either you all are or you are not, right?

    8. LA

      Mm-hmm.

    9. PA

      Like, you know, the, meaning the GC contenders.

    10. LA

      Mm-hmm.

    11. PA

      I don't necessarily mean everybody in the race. But my view was either all the GC contenders are or they are not, and I truly believed that post-'98 that you guys were off.

    12. LA

      Right.

    13. PA

      Um-

    14. LA

      Well, you were wrong.

    15. PA

      I was absolutely wrong.

    16. LA

      [laughs]

    17. PA

      But the moment I realized how wrong I was was not with Landis. It was actually with Tyler.

    18. LA

      Mm-hmm.

    19. PA

      Landis didn't come across as very believable. La- Tyler did.

    20. LA

      Mm-hmm.

    21. PA

      And so when did... I'm try- I'm, I've lost track of time, but Tyler's book that he wrote with Dan Coyle-

    22. LA

      Mm-hmm

    23. PA

      ... did that come out in like 2011? Does that sound about right?

    24. LA

      [tsks] I th- uh, some, yeah, maybe 2010.

    25. PA

      Yeah, yeah.

    26. LA

      Yeah.

    27. PA

      It was when I read Tyler's book that I was like, "This guy's way too freaking believable."

    28. LA

      Mm-hmm.

    29. PA

      Um, and if he's saying this and he's saying that this is what they were all doing, like I believe it now.

    30. LA

      Mm-hmm.

  16. 2:00:52 – 2:12:33

    Growth through downfall: learning from his mistakes and helping others after their own fall from grace

    1. LA

      dinners.

    2. PA

      You know, I remember a while ago your Twitter bio, um, was different than it is now. Do you remember what it used to say?

    3. LA

      No. What'd it say? [laughs]

    4. PA

      It used to s-

    5. LA

      I don't even know what it says now.

    6. PA

      Uh, today it says, like, I don't know, something boring like everybody else's.

    7. LA

      Okay.

    8. PA

      But it used to say, um, "There's a reason the, uh, the windshield's bigger than the rear view mirror."

    9. LA

      Oh, right. [laughs] Yeah.

    10. PA

      Um, I'll tell you, I've always found that, I don't know who that quote is attributed to.

    11. LA

      Mm-hmm.

    12. PA

      I'm sure it, I'm sure it appears in many formats. But I always found it to be very poignant because it's not saying you should only have a windshield and no rear view mirror.

    13. LA

      Right.

    14. PA

      Right?

    15. LA

      Mm-hmm.

    16. PA

      And it's not saying you should have no windshield and only a rear view mirror. It's saying you need both, but one's bigger than the other.

    17. LA

      Yeah.

    18. PA

      But in my own life, I've always felt like I have to have a rear view mirror

    19. LA

      Yeah

    20. PA

      Like I, I never wanna lose sight of my sins-

    21. LA

      Right

    22. PA

      ... 'cause they kinda ground me.

    23. LA

      Of course.

    24. PA

      Um, when I think of all of the, again, you've lived, you've, you've had the, both the luxury and the inconvenience of living all of your sins on the world's most public stage.

    25. LA

      Right.

    26. PA

      So most of us make all of our mistakes behind closed doors, and nobody really gets to see-

    27. LA

      Mm-hmm

    28. PA

      ... the horrible things we've done. I remember when I hit the one-year anniversary of doing something so awful I couldn't stand my existence for it, and I remember talking to my therapist about it, and she said, "I actually don't want you to ever forget this."

    29. LA

      Right. Of course not.

    30. PA

      Like, "I want you to remember what you did, because this is, you have to remember that the monster that did that thing, he, he's never gonna die."

  17. 2:12:33 – 2:21:00

    Moving forward: Living his life, reflecting on his legacy, the state of Livestrong

    1. PA

      It is amazing to me how our society some- we, we, I, again, I, I can't understand it, why we sometimes lift people up and then find such joy in watching them crash.

    2. LA

      Right. Yeah. We, we, we're not gonna figure that out, you know. And I, I, I don't, I don't spend any time. I mean, I, I get very frustrated and straight up mad when I see, you know, the, the, the, the differences between Ullrich and Zabel and Pantani and Basso and on and on and on. But, you know. And, and guys that were just not equipped to handle that downfall. Like it, that was the one, man, that was the one thing I said to myself. I said, "Just whatever you do, just do not... I mean, you can go have fun and do some crazy, but don't you ever lose, lose contact with your health, your wellness, your fitness, your family. Like don't ever lose sight of that."

    3. PA

      Did you go through a period in 2013 where you were pretty reclusive and, so this is meaning right after kind of the whole confession, um- 'Cause you didn't-- I'm trying to think, like when did you start your podcast, in '16, '17?

    4. LA

      I'd have to go back and look. It's been, uh-

    5. PA

      Like, there was a period of time when you were really off the radar.

    6. LA

      Well, yeah. I mean, had, uh, uh, yeah, you know, no choice. [chuckles] Radar didn't pick you up either. I mean, there was no- nothing to do.

    7. PA

      What was it like when you walked into a restaurant? Did people, um... I mean, you've told one story a number of times about, you know, you walking across the street and a bunch of people-

    8. LA

      Yeah

    9. PA

      ... in a bar screaming.

    10. LA

      That, but that was once. That hap-

    11. PA

      But what-- Yeah, what was, what was the normal reaction like?

    12. LA

      Perfectly fine.

    13. PA

      Indifference?

    14. LA

      Yeah, just... Yeah. I mean, I, I... People, people are-- And again, I mean, it goes to this comment thing. Like, I just think about, that's why I don't read comments, 'cause I walk through my day, you know. I see guys on the golf course. I see people on bike rides. I see people in restaurants. I see, you know, uh, I go to meetings. Like, it's, it's-- That is not a, a, a, a, a, an accurate snapshot of what my life is like at all.

    15. PA

      You know, e-even in '13. So r- 'Cause remember, the other thing that was going on at that point in time is the foundation is crumbling-

    16. LA

      Right

    17. PA

      ... and you're getting kicked out.

    18. LA

      Yep.

    19. PA

      And, you know, you've told me before that that hurt as much as anything else.

    20. LA

      Y-yeah. I mean, it was, it was surreal and, and just sad.

    21. PA

      And what did the people at the foundation tell you unofficially? Not the, not the board, but the people who worked there, the people who were doing the actual heavy lifting.

    22. LA

      Well, I mean, y-y-y-the, the... Now those folks I have a ton of, um, regret about because they, they, they were doing the Lord's work, and they were not privy, uh, to-

    23. PA

      Yeah, they weren't decision makers here.

    24. LA

      Yeah. But the, a-and they believed the dream. They believed the story, and so that's... And, and as a byproduct of that, you know, they in many ways felt, uh, complicit in, in the scheme. And so for that, it, that's, that's tough for me to, to hear and to, and, and I'll spend the rest of my days trying to make that okay for them. Um, you know, at the, at the top of, you know... And I wasn't part of these discussions, so I don't know what the board room discussions were like or, or, or who, which consultants were hired, or I don't know how it all went down, but, um... And I just knew it was the wrong thing. I knew it. I knew that the, that, that timeout, yes, space, but some agreement here that we will both reemerge. That was the right thing to do. I mean, uh, and I don't need somebody to sit here and say, "Well, you're right." Like, uh, but if I look at where Livestrong has ultimately ended up and I look at, you know, you've brought up a po- I mean, if I look at my audience now, well, [chuckles] they're very different.

    25. PA

      Yeah.

    26. LA

      And one of them is, is not doing very well, and the other one's, i-is back, so to speak.

    27. PA

      What, what interaction do you have these days with the cancer community?

    28. LA

      Very little. Just one, just one-on-one. Just with... And, and by the way, that's fine. Like, I don't, you know, I don't need to be asked to speak at a gala or get some award or all the stuff I did in the past. If somebody's got a friend that's just been diagnosed, and, "Hey, Lance, can you reach out to them?" 100%. Let's go, right now. Um, and that's, that's enough for me.

    29. PA

      I don't know if you've been asked this question before. I'm sure you have. Um, and so I apologize in advance. But, um, when the story's done, what do you think your legacy's gonna be?

    30. LA

      Well, you don't, y-y-y-y... [lips smack] There, there's, um, well... Yeah, that, that's, that's, that's harder to... What do I think it will be or what do I want it to be? Because you don't get to write your own-

  18. 2:21:00 – 2:26:56

    Turning back the clock: Advice Lance would give to his 15 year-old self

    1. LA

      that.

    2. PA

      If you could go back in time to 15-year-old Lance-

    3. LA

      Oh, God. [laughs]

    4. PA

      You've got, you've got a, you've got a week with him.

    5. LA

      Yeah.

    6. PA

      What kind of lessons would you try to impart on him?

    7. LA

      Um, you know, that's... 'Cause 15 was a, a, an interesting age, so, uh, there would, there would've been a lot. I mean, that was a very-

    8. PA

      Yeah, you're good enough that you, you... You know, I, I picked 15 because-

    9. LA

      Well, the, the 15 was when my, was when-

    10. PA

      You're a pro triathlete

    11. LA

      ... well, I was a pro athlete, and it was when my mom kicked out Terry Armstrong.

    12. PA

      Okay. So I didn't know that was 15.

    13. LA

      Yeah, that was 15.

    14. PA

      Okay.

    15. LA

      So that was, that was a point in time where it was her and I against the world. Like, "Fuck everybody else. We're gonna, we're gonna get these people." Like, "He's gone. We're together." Like, "Let's go." And so that was a very important, um-

    16. PA

      So the chip on your shoulder, which I'm guessing exists subconsciously, now became pretty conscious.

    17. LA

      Yeah. Absolutely.

    18. PA

      And that chip on your shoulder did a lot of good for you and obviously a lot of bad for you.

    19. LA

      Yeah. Yeah.

    20. PA

      So do you think that, again, in this thought experiment, right, if you had a week to coach that kid, could you have figured out a way to extract the value from-

    21. LA

      Right

    22. PA

      ... that complex-

    23. LA

      Mm-hmm

    24. PA

      ... and soften some of the damage that it was gonna ultimately cause you-

    25. LA

      Mm-hmm

    26. PA

      ... via the damage it would cause to others?

    27. LA

      Yeah. I mean, I, I, I didn't re- you know, but yeah, I mean, 15-year-olds don't realize that. But, but the amount of trauma that, that I had already had in my life, which, you know, just got actually worse and worse and worse. I mean, cancer was hugely traumatic, and then the, the fall was traumatic. And like there is, there is... There's a lot to unpack there. And so, a- a- and then, you know, never meeting your father and having this guy around. It was just... And never having that, that, that f- figure in your life. Um, and the, and the figure that was there was wildly defective. You know, you, you, you've... It would've been in and around that, you know, whether that was through even therapy at the ti- then, you know what I mean? If I wa- By the way, if, if somebody would've come up to me when I was 15 and said, "You know, I feel like you've had some crazy shit in your 15 years. You should just do a little bit, once a month," I would've said, "You know what? Why don't you go fuck yourself?" [laughs] I ain't doing therapy for nothing. Like, I embrace that stuff now, but, um, there would've been a lot of work to do even then.

    28. PA

      What could you have told him, though? Like, again, if he's not willing to go to therapy, which I can understand, that's a pretty hard sell to a really-

    29. LA

      Mm-hmm

    30. PA

      ... really cocky 15-year-old.

  19. 2:26:56 – 2:35:04

    Keeping fit at age 50

    1. PA

      So how do you keep fit these days? I mean, you talked about swimming. Is that the mainstay of your training?

    2. LA

      No, I d- I, uh, what, now we're in the summer, so now I get, uh, Aspen is completely thawed out. The mountain bike trails are open.

    3. PA

      What's your fastest time up Mount Evans?

    4. LA

      I've only done Mount Evans once, like in '80... No, in '90. I did it in 1990. That's a long-

    5. PA

      It's at your doorstep.

    6. LA

      No, no. That's, that's not that close.

    7. PA

      It's close to Aspen, isn't it? It's like a couple hours away.

    8. LA

      Well, that's, that's not close.

    9. PA

      [laughs]

    10. LA

      I ri- I, I don't get in a car to ride my bike. That's kind of a rule.

    11. PA

      All right, what was your fastest time up Palomar?

    12. LA

      Don't know. That was a long time ago. [laughs]

    13. PA

      Do you care anymore? Do you still care how fast you can ride up the mountain?

    14. LA

      No. I, I find myself being happier and happier just riding. I-

    15. PA

      Do you use a power meter still?

    16. LA

      Nope. No heart rate, no power meter, none of that bullshit.

    17. PA

      Do you have any idea what your, what you would ride up, uh, Madone in today?

    18. LA

      Uh-

    19. PA

      How many watts you could average if we stuck a power meter on you?

    20. LA

      I have no idea.

    21. PA

      Like, 350?

    22. LA

      No, I doubt I could do that.

    23. PA

      I bet you could.

    24. LA

      Give, gimme, if you gimme a week or two to train, I could, I could... I don't know. But it's, I, I find myself just, when I'm out, it's like I, I, uh, I ride easier as opposed to harder. I mean, I, I put it-

    25. PA

      Like, do you, do you, do you enjoy a group ride, or do you still enjoy just kinda going out on your own, doing a four-hour ride?

    26. LA

      No, I like it, I like being all alone.

    27. PA

      How much on a mountain bike versus road bike?

    28. LA

      Mostly mountain bike.

    29. PA

      Just 'cause of the risk of cars, or?

    30. LA

      Cars. I like staying away. And it's, you know, where we live, you get out in the, in the mountains on a mountain bike all by yourself, come on.

Episode duration: 2:35:04

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