EVERY SPOKEN WORD
25 min read · 5,213 words- 0:00 – 15:00
[upbeat music] Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from…
- KSKara Swisher
[upbeat music] Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.
- SGScott Galloway
And I'm Scott Galloway.
- KSKara Swisher
Uh, this is an emergency pod. We do these from time to time with news, especially if it's breaking, and obviously, what's happened over the weekend in Minnesota has been heinous in many ways, uh, in all ways, actually. Um, so we had to jump on here to talk about the situation. Tensions are exploding in reaction to federal agents shooting and killing thirty-seven-year-old ICU nurse, Alex, uh, Pretti, in Minneapolis on Saturday. This is the second fatal shooting by federal agents this month, with Governor Tim Walz calling for Trump to halt ICE operations in the state. Meanwhile, Trump administration, uh... the Trump administration is trying to cast blame on the victim and local Democratic lawmakers. Border Control Command, Gregory Bovino, appeared on CNN's State of the Union with Dana Bash earlier, and here's what that tiny, horrible man had to say.
- SPSpeaker
All of the video that we have seen shows him documenting it with his cell phone, which is a lawful thing to do, and the only time he seemed to interact with law enforcement is when they went after him, when he was trying to help an individual who law enforcement pushed down. So where do you have the evidence to show that he was trying to impede that, uh, that law enforcement operation?
- SPSpeaker
Sure, Dana. First, he was there in the scene. He was in the scene actively impeding and assaulting law enforcement to the point-
- SPSpeaker
But that's not illegal.
- SPSpeaker
Here's a-
- SPSpeaker
He wasn't, he wasn't-
- SPSpeaker
Dana-
- SPSpeaker
... impeding it. He was filming it, which is a legal thing to do in the United States of America.
- SPSpeaker
Uh, Dana, let's, let's don't freeze frame adjudicate this now.
- KSKara Swisher
Let's freeze frame adjudicate it. Everyone saw it from a hundred different angles. There was video everywhere, and, uh, this small, little Himmler wannabe doesn't seem to understand that. Attorney General Pam Bondi gave Tim Walz three conditions to, quote, "Restore the rule of law." She wants him to hand over the info about the state's welfare programs, grant access to state voter rolls, and repeal sanctuary policies. Let's focus on the middle one, which we will. They want these voter rolls, uh, because of the midterm elections. Let's talk about the Democratic response. Democrats are obviously in an uproar, and AOC and others calling for Senate Democrats to block ICE spending this week. Democrats would have to shut down a large portion of the government in order to do that. They seem willing to do so. Representative Robin Kelly of Illinois is asking colleagues to sign, uh, onto her articles of impeachment against DHS Secretary Kristi Noem. Meanwhile, Megyn Kelly appeared to agree that ICE should get out of Minnesota, but she was just being awful. She tweeted: @realDonaldTrump should pull ICE out of Minnesota today and announced there will be no more immigration enforcement in Minnesota at all. All illegals in the US are encouraged to move there. If any illegal is found outside of Minnesota and gets deported, they will never apply for re-entry. She is a cruel and s- tireless termagant. Uh, hours after this young man was killed, uh, Trump and Melania went ahead with a previously scheduled screening of her new documentary, Melania, at the White House. Guests included Tim Cook, along with AMD CEO Lisa Su, the CEO of Zoom, uh, and Mike Tyson and Tony Robbins. Strange group of people, but a lot of tech CEOs. Also, Andy Jassy, the CEO of Amazon. In any case, uh, a, a really terrible, uh, day for the United States of America. Scott, your thoughts?
- SGScott Galloway
[inhaling] Well, typically, you'd have some-- You'd wanna de-escalate and say, "Let's wait till there's a full investigation," but unfortunately, the institutions conducting these investigations now are no longer trusted, and with good reason. The American public doesn't believe that these investigations will be, be fair investigations, so you have to turn to the, you know, the kind of the frame adjudication. And what the frame shows is that, one, this individual was clearly exercising just free speech. Uh, all free speech is not exempt. You know, if you incite violence, you-- that's not free speech, but it, it's difficult to see how in any way this individual was inciting violence. He was just filming what was happening. He moved to help protect somebody or comfort them after they had been knocked down. Uh, so his First Amendment rights were clearly violated. Two, the Second Amendment is the right to bear arms. He was carrying a weapon, which he had a legal license, um, for carry for. Uh, the gun was re-removed from him. He did not take out the gun. He did not wave it at anybody. It was in his waistband. It was taken out, and then, uh... So his First and Second Amendment rights [chuckles] were violated in about fifteen seconds. And then a couple of things that I noticed that were even more disturbing were, one, when a gunshot goes off, these, quote, unquote, "trained federal agents" scattered. You-- When your gun goes off, you're supposed to make sure the person you think is firing the gun, you look for their hands, you look for the gun. They didn't have none of that. They scattered, and Representative Seth Moulton, who's a veteran, and I believe a Marine who served in, I believe it was Iraq, said that, "If this had happened in the middle of a combat zone, and a, a combatant, enemy combatant, who had been disarmed, was treated this way, the officers and the enlisted men involved in that murder would be court-martialed." So the rules of engagement are now more reckless and more violent in the suburbs of Minneapolis than they are in Mogadishu during a war. So this has gone, um, so far, uh, it, it-- and this notion that this has anything to do with the Constitution, everyone is now ignoring the Constitution. The other th- word that comes to my mind is cowardice, and that is Trump and Secretary Noem are perpetrating violence under the auspices that it has something to do with immigration. They want a third party that will take the blame or the, be the shock absorber for this depravity, and that is an agency full of masked secret police.... I mean, they're not even taking responsibility for this violence. They're trying to keep it at arm's length.
- KSKara Swisher
No, they said the victims were the ICE officers. That's what Gregory Bovino said to Dana Bash, who did a terrific job trying to m- m- take-- explain to him why he was lying, [chuckles] essentially. But go ahead.
- SGScott Galloway
What are your, what are your thoughts on this, Kara?
- KSKara Swisher
Uh, I just-- Scott, it's, uh... This is repulsive and in every way, on, on, on every aspect of it, the-- what, what had happened there. I mean, one, at one point, I called these people incompetent, and everyone's like: "No, they're evil." Inc- evil is incompetent. They're, they're both evil and incompetent. Um, and I don't throw around those things. I don't throw around Nazi terms very easily, but this is-
- SGScott Galloway
Mm-hmm
- KSKara Swisher
... that's what it looks-- that's what it is, and especially-- even the outfit, as Greg, uh, as, uh, Governor Newsom pointed out with Greg Bovino, who is completely incompetent and also evil. And I don't use those terms lightly. I really don't. And I find when you, when you throw them about... But this man was using a phone, a phone, to ta- to take pictures, and that's what he's allowed to do.
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
He was peaceful. He was leaning down to help a woman who was shoved down by police, who was doing nothing but exercising her right. They kept calling it a, a-- Today, Todd Blanche, another terrible person in the administration, uh, and a pedophile protector, let's just note that, um, was, uh, saying, uh, that, that he was-- it was a riot. It wasn't by any means a riot. They were blaming the police of Minnesota, and I just interviewed the mayor of, of, of Minneapolis. They have six hundred officers. There's three thousand ICE, uh... there's three thousand ICE, uh, members. They can't protect them, especially when they're behaving like thugs and attacking the citizens. They're there to protect the citizens, not the ICE, not the ICE force, which is enormous, and you can't do that, and they are trying to create violence. It's very obvious what they're trying to do. And then laying the blame on-- they, th- there's-- literally, there, there's nothing... I, I don't even believe we're even arguing that this guy did anything. He didn't. And to-- and everyone can see it, and what was really astonishing to me was all the angles and the people and the citizens there putting themselves in harm's way to take these pictures, right?
- SGScott Galloway
Mm-hmm.
- KSKara Swisher
This woman in the pink jacket. There's a woman in a car. There's, there's every angle of this thing.
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
There's a woman in a car straight on. There's one across the street. There's one in front of him. There's one on the other side. These people don't understand, we see you. We see what you're doing. It is not... A- and to try to look at it any other way, and especially 'cause he was on the ground, you can absolutely see what happened, and then the guy pulls out the gun and shoots him for no reason! There's-- And one of the things which was a- astonishing, one of the people taking the pictures said: "What did you just do? What did you just do?" And that is the que- what in the... why in the world would you do that? There were six, seven people on this guy, and it's... I- I have to tell you one thing, the power of digital is really strong. You see-- people see it. Like, I, I don't understand why these people don't think cell phones exist in this world. The second part is the silence from our business community, the silence from these people. They went to the White House last night. Could they just beg off? Like, to go to the Melania screening, which nobody wants to see. Could they say something publicly? Like, I, I, I just-- the, the silence of our business people, especially the tech people, and then men, a- a- and many people, like Bill Ackman, as usual, 'cause he can't shut his diarrhea mouth, c- could not help but blame everybody but who shot this man, which were these officers. Um, obviously, Minnesota has moved this time because they learned from the first, and I qu- this is a murder, is what this is. They learned from the first one that they tried to take evidence. They scattered, as you said. You can't leave the scene of, of an, um, that, some-- a shooting like that, a, a fatal shooting. And then the last thing I would say is, the citizens of Minnesota... I'm wearing a, m- a Minnesota Star Tribune. I, I have to say, the press is doing a great job there, the Minnesota Star Tribune and others. These are citizens that are not gonna take this shit, and, uh, I, I know you call for leaders, but we are the leaders, right? The citizens are the leaders, not our politicians. I will say, the Democrats had-
- SGScott Galloway
Mm-hmm
- KSKara Swisher
... especially AOC, especially, uh, you know, all of them were very strong about what was going on. The Minnesota [lips smack] people were actually quite under control over what's happening. Governor Walz, I thought, conducted himself really well.
- SGScott Galloway
Mm-hmm.
- KSKara Swisher
Uh, the police officers, uh, of the state of, in Minnesota are horrified. You can see that, and they conducted themselves really... And the only people conducting themselves like the thugs and fascists they are, are the Trump administration, and they will not outlive- they w- the, the shame will outlive them, of what they've done, and they don't care. So that's the only problem here.
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah, and especially last week, there was a lot of talk about... I thought, "How, how, how can I take my time here and make it effective?" So I spent a lot of time when I was on these panels talking about how the Islamic Republic is executing people in the street, and my colleague, Catherine Dillon, reminded me. She said, "Scott, you realize that our government is executing people on the streets of Minneapolis right now," which was a very puncturing point.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- 15:00 – 27:38
I, I see this point. I don't,…
- SGScott Galloway
power fe- fears withdrawal more than resistance, because resistance is noisy, but withdrawal is expensive. And it's, it's a question around what actually works, and the history and the data, I believe, are not ambiguous. When nothing moves, uh, everyone listens, and that's not ideology, it's economics, in that you don't need permission to opt out. And in a, in a symptom-- and in a system, capitalism built entirely on participation, the most radical act in capitalism isn't protest, it's non-participation. If you wanted the fastest blue line path, and there might even be a simpler way... I believe if you could convince America, the entire economy now is built on AI. If you could convince a bunch of Americans to cancel their ChatGPT or OpenAI accounts, and all of a sudden, [chuckles] OpenAI had to announce that their subscriptions had fallen off a cliff, that would ripple into Nvidia, that would ripple into Microsoft, and these are the people that Trump cares about, and this is what the S&P, this is what the economy cares about.
- KSKara Swisher
I, I see this point. I don't, I don't agree with you about protests. I think they do. They-- It's all part of the same package. It's an aggressive media who follows this-
- SGScott Galloway
Yep
- KSKara Swisher
... and reports on things. It is these protests, 'cause I do think people putting their l- their lives on the line in the street matters. I think it does. It has-
- SGScott Galloway
I don't mean to diminish it.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- SGScott Galloway
I worry it's more cinematic than effective-
- KSKara Swisher
But-
- SGScott Galloway
- 'cause I don't think the Trump administration cares.
- KSKara Swisher
I think it's different in this new environment of video everywhere.
- SGScott Galloway
Yep.
- KSKara Swisher
I do think it is effective.
- SGScott Galloway
Yep.
- KSKara Swisher
And I do think it-
- SGScott Galloway
Definitely from a policing and an accountability standpoint.
- KSKara Swisher
Correct, and it changes people's minds, 'cause people are... I mean, uh, people are, are-- It's horrifying. Ev- and everyone-
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah, agreed
- KSKara Swisher
... we can see you. "We see you," is a really powerful thing. I think the media has to step up, and there-- everyone, folks, there's a reason these billionaires, uh, right-wingers need to own this stuff, 'cause they're trying to control the message. Absolutely, no question. They're trying to even hand it... Um, I was told by someone, uh, uh, at CBS, they're like: "You could watch this, and if you were pro-MAGA, you'd like it, and if you were anti-MAGA, you'd like it, and that's how we want it to be." That's a terrible thing to, to try to do. There is... Truthful, not neutral, is the way, um-
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah
- KSKara Swisher
... the press should be acting right now. Uh, I thought, uh, I think, I think a lot of them have been woken up into this in a much more instead of a, "Well, what is your thoughts here, Scott Fucking Jennings?"
- SGScott Galloway
Right.
- KSKara Swisher
Like, that's enough. That's enough of that, seriously. Um, there's no thoughts here about shooting someone, and there's no-- I, I was listening, uh... I often listen to comics during [chuckles] times like this, 'cause I think they have the-- they ha- they get to the heart of it in a really effective way. And Josh, uh, Johnson, who I've interviewed, is an amazing young comic.
- SGScott Galloway
Mm-hmm.
- KSKara Swisher
And he said... Uh, I, I-
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah, I saw him
- KSKara Swisher
... I sent this to you. It was-- This is an argument about legality versus morality.
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
Um, and if you, if y- the idea that Todd Blanche was sitting there saying, "Well, it was a riot. Well, he, you know, he was resisting." If we get into arguments with these people about what we can see with our eyes-... it is, it, we lose, right? Because they're gonna find some reason that this young man deserved to get shot, or the-
- SGScott Galloway
Mm-hmm
- KSKara Swisher
... or Renee Good deserved it 'cause she was mouthy, like, 'cause she wouldn't move her car. Um, they try to twist everything, and so you're not gonna win on, uh, in an, in a face-to-face argument with these people. You're gonna win by marching, I agree, and economic resistance is critical here. Um, the problem was with a lot of people, with Tim Cook being at the White House... And by the way, Tim, I like you very much, but Steve Jobs would be ashamed of you. I know he would be ashamed of you. It's, it's a grotesque way to end what has been a very successful, uh, career as a CEO. You could have walked away. You could have walked away. Shareholders are not everything. The Apple brand stands for more. So a lot of people wanted to g- give up their iPhones, like, "I'm gonna give up..." Let me just tell you, [chuckles] the founder of Google is dating a MAGA influencer and is quite right-wing now. So there's nowhere to go, unfortunately, and that's the problem, is we have been held captive by these men boys who are now deciding they wanna dabble in fascism or at least turn a blind eye to it. And so I, I... Part of me is like, what do you do here, right? What do you- w- what, what-
Episode duration: 27:38
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