America’s Credit Rating Dropped and You’re Going to Pay for It | Pivot

Scott Galloway 0:00 ... everything just got a little bit more expensive for every American. Every American is gonna have to pay more on their student loans, their credit cards, on their mortgages. This is a big deal. (instrumental music)

Kara Swisher 0:15 Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott Galloway 0:20 So, I'm an adolescent. When I wake up in the morning, I immediately grab my phone, and the first thing I did this morning is I opened the New York Times app.

Kara Swisher 0:29 Uh-huh.

Scott Galloway 0:29 And what do I see? I see this big, colorful picture...

Kara Swisher 0:34 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 0:34 ... of a seven-year-old boy...

Kara Swisher 0:36 Uh-huh.

Scott Galloway 0:36 ... on a climbing wall.

Kara Swisher 0:37 Uh-huh.

Scott Galloway 0:38 And I look at it, and granted I'm a little, you know, misty-eyed, the edibles just trying to, you know, no coffee yet, pre-coffee, post-edibles.

Kara Swisher 0:45 Uh-huh.

Scott Galloway 0:45 And I'm like, "I recognize that climbing wall."

Kara Swisher 0:48 Uh-huh.

Scott Galloway 0:48 And then I look and I'm like, "That's my climbing wall."

Kara Swisher 0:51 That's your climbing wall.

Scott Galloway 0:52 In my place in Soho, and that's my seven-year-old, specifically my co-host. That's my seven-year-old boy.

Kara Swisher 0:58 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 0:58 Specifically my co-host. And then the next... I didn't even read the article. I went down to the next picture. The next picture is you looking very professional in my studio.

Kara Swisher 1:06 That's correct. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 1:07 Like, are you gonna start banging my wife? Are you literally assuming my identity?

Kara Swisher 1:12 Oh, interesting.

Scott Galloway 1:12 Seriously.

Kara Swisher 1:14 Huh.

Scott Galloway 1:14 What's going on here?

Kara Swisher 1:15 Well, someone was bi- blibbity-blabbity with the New York Times or someone, because all this news got out, so they moved the story forward. I was supposed to have a picture taken in my studio...

Scott Galloway 1:25 Blibbity-blabbity. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 1:25 ... here, uh, and they, and I said, "Oh, we were doing it at Scott's." That's the way, 'cause that's where I was last week.

Scott Galloway 1:31 Oh, God.

Kara Swisher 1:31 And so it turned out well. It m- it mashed, meshed with the headline.

Scott Galloway 1:34 Can you say puff piece? Well, let me...

Kara Swisher 1:36 Okay.

Scott Galloway 1:36 What was the title of...

Kara Swisher 1:38 Climbing, Future Climbing. I'm climbing upwards.

Scott Galloway 1:40 No, the title, I'm sorry, the title of the article was, was, hold on, how can, "Kara Swisher Scales Her Empire Even More."

Kara Swisher 1:50 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 1:50 I mean, it was like, oh my God. It's gonna be the, they, they literally like, "Sca- scales, scales her reach even more."

Kara Swisher 1:59 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 1:59 I'm like, wow.

Kara Swisher 2:01 I liked your quote though. I like they called us a screwball comedy. I like that. That was nice.

Scott Galloway 2:05 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 2:05 You're feral. Apparently you're feral.

Scott Galloway 2:07 I didn't... Feral?

Kara Swisher 2:08 Feral.

Scott Galloway 2:08 That was kinda rough.

Kara Swisher 2:09 I know, you're, but it's true though. It's accurate.

Scott Galloway 2:11 Feral?

Kara Swisher 2:12 Feral. You're like, "Raah." You know, you're, I'm sort of calm and I'm like, "Uh." Like that.

Scott Galloway 2:17 Oh yeah, you're just very chill. (laughs) Yeah.

Kara Swisher 2:21 Anyway, it was...

Scott Galloway 2:21 That's right. You're just mushroom chocolates come to life.

Kara Swisher 2:23 Yeah, yeah.

Scott Galloway 2:24 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 2:24 I did like your quote about making me a billionaire. I really appreciate that. That was an interesting insight.

Scott Galloway 2:30 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 2:30 Of our, our copacetic relationship.

Scott Galloway 2:32 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 2:32 You don't like that I text you at all times? I had no idea.

Scott Galloway 2:35 Uh, no, that, yeah, no, most of the time it's fine.

Kara Swisher 2:40 Yeah, most of the time it's fine.

Scott Galloway 2:40 Most of the time it's fine. Most time I just ignore it. The Pivot text thing, like if I see Pivot come up, I'm like, "Pivot team," I'm like, "Don't read it."

Kara Swisher 2:46 (laughs) I do sometimes text you directly.

Scott Galloway 2:49 It's just, it's just all these, all these stories about the latest, the latest in, in Wokistan. Anyways.

Kara Swisher 2:54 No, it's not. No, it's stuff we used to give to.

Scott Galloway 2:56 No, it's not.

Kara Swisher 2:57 No, it's not. It's so untrue.

Scott Galloway 2:58 No, it's not. Yeah, it isn't true.

Kara Swisher 2:58 Anyway, thank you. It was a very nice article and the pic- the photographer was amazing. Um, she's, she, uh, her last assignment I think was doing the West Village girls for New York Magazine, and then she did that beautiful Bill Burr picture. She's known for her blue, uh, her blue, uh, framing. Her blue, uh,

Scott Galloway 3:15 I look like a, I thought it looked like an ad for a lesbian Garanimals. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 3:19 Mm-hmm, thank you.

Scott Galloway 3:20 It's just, it's just like, in the new, the new Garanimals section for...

Kara Swisher 3:25 I love Garanimals.

Scott Galloway 3:26 The, the...

Kara Swisher 3:27 I thought that.

Scott Galloway 3:27 ... young lady in your life that's decided she, she likes Joan Baez or I don't know, Katie, what's her name?

Kara Swisher 3:33 Melissa Etheridge.

Scott Galloway 3:34 Melissa Etheridge, like...

Kara Swisher 3:35 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 3:35 It's like, okay.

Kara Swisher 3:36 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 3:36 Dockers and a cull- colorful s- colorful...

Kara Swisher 3:38 Dockers? I was wearing... Uh, Jordans.

Scott Galloway 3:40 And a colorful, colorful...

Kara Swisher 3:40 ... what are you talking about?

Scott Galloway 3:41 ... shirt and to- Tommy Bahamas and Dockers. That's how...

Kara Swisher 3:45 No. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 3:45 That's what you should request to be buried in. Seriously.

Kara Swisher 3:48 (laughs) I have nice shoes.

Scott Galloway 3:49 And the hearse needs to be a Subaru or some lame EV.

Kara Swisher 3:52 Oh my God. You are...

Scott Galloway 3:52 I'm already planning, I'm already... I-

Kara Swisher 3:53 Well, how many lesbian tropes are you gonna pull out of your little hat, your tiny little...

Scott Galloway 3:57 They're so good though.

Kara Swisher 3:58 They're not good. It's called a Lesbaru, first of all.

Scott Galloway 4:01 A Lesbaru, that's better.

Kara Swisher 4:02 And a U-Haul, you forgot the U-Haul one. You, there's so many you're missing you have to get to.

Scott Galloway 4:07 Yeah. We could get it in a letter.

Kara Swisher 4:07 Anyway, it was a nice piece, and more to the point, thank you again for letting me stay at your beautiful home. I had a great time. And Louie really appreciated. They have driven across country, the two boys, and they're stopping at all kinds of places, which are very funny. Um, and it was really helpful for our family. I really appreciate it. And thank you for letting me use your climbing wall to become even more egotistical. I really appreciate that. To climb to further heights.

Scott Galloway 4:32 Yeah. Um, yeah. It- it, that was, uh, it was a good article. You must be happy with it.

Kara Swisher 4:39 Yeah, yeah. It was good. It was good. It was nice. It was very nice. And I like the, it- it had news of our, we're staying at Vox. That's really what the news is, correct? And uh, uh, it would, that's a really, we're happy that deal is done, aren't we?

Scott Galloway 4:50 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 4:51 Yeah. Uh-huh. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 4:52 Yeah. But most importantly, um, my girlfriend said that if our podcast, um, gets, uh, hits, um, number, number, uh, gets next year's Wepie...

Kara Swisher 5:04 Oh.

Scott Galloway 5:04 ... that we'll try anal, so please don't vote. Her strap-on is huge and it really scares me. Kara, really si-

Kara Swisher 5:11 (laughs) So you would put it.

Scott Galloway 5:12 So (laughs) I've been looking up lesbian jokes and I couldn't find any, but I thought that one's pretty funny.

Kara Swisher 5:16 Okay, that one's not good. That one, we're gonna move you on today 'cause...

Scott Galloway 5:18 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 5:18 ... we've got a lot to get to today. Anyway, we'll be here for four more years, everybody. So just remember, at least this podcast. Who knows what Scott's cooking up.

Scott Galloway 5:24 I loved it. Clearly everyone was going on background correcting each other...

Kara Swisher 5:27 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 5:27 ... about the deal, trying to make each other look better or worse.

Kara Swisher 5:30 Yeah. Yeah, it's a good deal. It's a good deal and it's a good deal for everybody. And we'll see how...

Scott Galloway 5:33 Well, you know what I said? I said, I told you...

Kara Swisher 5:35 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 5:35 ... when we were talking about how to do this deal, I'm like, "You gotta start thinking of, like a billionaire about the people you cover."

Kara Swisher 5:40 You do. That's right.

Scott Galloway 5:41 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 5:41 Yeah, you did. You did. And we have gotten to a good place. We are very happy to stay here. We do like working with Vox, but we did talk to some interesting people. It was an interesting, it's an interesting insight into the podcast universe and where things are going. And, uh, you have to be creative and try different things. We do really, um, we did a lot of things that are really interesting, um, in the deal. And hopefully it will yield us both, uh, many, many, many, many more riches to come and, and good shows mostly. Um...... because I think our fans tend to like us. Hopefully it'll get even bigger, and then I'll be- have another piece in four years. Um, I don't know where I'll be in your apartment. Maybe I'll own your apartment at that point. We'll see about that.

Scott Galloway 6:20 Uh, yeah. It's all yours.

Kara Swisher 6:21 I would buy your apartment 100%.

Scott Galloway 6:21 Well, you kinda own it now. You kinda... It's like having a-

Kara Swisher 6:24 I kind of do own it now.

Scott Galloway 6:24 You don't wanna own a boat, you want a friend with a boat? That's kinda where you are right now.

Kara Swisher 6:27 I love that. Well, you could stay at any of my homes.

Scott Galloway 6:29 I'm not sure... I wonder if you've been there more days this year than I have.

Kara Swisher 6:31 I think I have. I think I have.

Scott Galloway 6:33 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 6:33 I think I actually have. I-

Scott Galloway 6:34 Good for you. Anyways, congratulations on the article.

Kara Swisher 6:35 Thank you. Thank you. I'm excited for your FT, uh, Pink Bitch, uh, or Salmon Bitch-

Scott Galloway 6:40 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 6:40 ... uh, article. You have to send it to me when it comes out. Anyway, we've got a lot to get to today. There's a lot going on, including Trump, uh, bullying Walmart and Apple. How ridiculous. And Meta delaying the release of its new AI model. Uh, but first,

Kara Swisher 6:52 President Joe Biden has been diagnosed with an aggressive form of prostate cancer that has spread to his bones. Biden and his family are reviewing treatment options with doctors. A statement from his office notes, "The cancer appears to be hormone-sensitive, which allows for effective management." Uh, messages of support have come in from across the political spectrum, including from President Trump, though Don Jr. and other MAGA-adjacent folks are already spreading theories about cover-ups and conspiracies. Uh, all this as a new book and audio recordings are raising questions about his mental fitness over the last few years. Um, any reaction to this news except sort of sad, sad?

Scott Galloway 7:26 Why don't you go first on this one, Kara?

Kara Swisher 7:28 I, I, I'm sad for him. I, I don't feel like... You know, there's been a lot of people like, "You should talk more about this Biden book." Look, it's in the rearview mirror. They o- he obviously shouldn't have run. Scott, in particular, and then I jumped on the same wagon as him, uh, thought he should've stepped down much earlier. We talked about it a lot. We got a lot of attacks for saying that. Uh, I don't wanna say we were right. We just felt we needed... It wasn't so much that he... It was that he was older, but that we needed a fresh start and someone who, who was up to the task of the presidency, incl- And by the way, we said the same thing about Donald Trump. He's too old. He's just simply too old and is not headed in the right direction mentally, uh, or physically. So, uh, so I feel, uh... But I do feel badly. This guy has, has devoted himself to service. I think o- on the whole he will be judged well by history. I think he's done a lot of, um, uh, important things, uh, as a, as a, uh, at, at an interesting evolution. Uh, I think the last couple years of his life didn't- have not gone well for him. Um, and this is a bad, this is bad news. As for Don Jr. and other MAGA people doing this, go fuck yourselves. It's really grotesque. Um, I, I... They... You don't... He wasn't hiding cancer. He may have had it. Maybe he didn't get checked. I don't know. Um, but given that the MAGA people are already push- who had- were pushing the Epstein suicide conspiracy theories, and now Don- Dan Bongino, who did that, the m- one of the people who did it, is now saying it was suicide, is just... These people, all they wanna do is spread theories to create a mess, and it's sad that they're doing it on the- in the fact that this guy probably, uh, is in a little more, uh... It's probably not a very good prom- prognosis for Joe Biden would be my guess. I'm not a doctor, but it sounds like it.

Scott Galloway 9:10 Uh, yeah. The, my f- I mean, I had a bunch of thoughts about it. My first thought was, "How did the president of the United States..." Uh, I get scanned all the time now.

Kara Swisher 9:18 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 9:18 And it was shocking to me that-

Kara Swisher 9:20 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 9:20 ... his first kind of quote unquote diagnosis that we know of had a Gleason test of nine.

Kara Swisher 9:24 Yeah. Very high.

Scott Galloway 9:24 I mean, and it spread to his bones. Typically-

Kara Swisher 9:27 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 9:27 ... I would have thought that he'd be getting scans all the time and getting-

Kara Swisher 9:30 But he isn't.

Scott Galloway 9:30 ... PSA tests all the time, and that...

Kara Swisher 9:32 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 9:32 It... Uh, I was shocked that it went so f- The kind of the first... What sounds like the first recognition of it was that it was this advanced. He's already seven years past the life expectancy of the average American man. He's, he's had a wonderful life of service. It's a tragedy for him and his family. Uh, not nearly the tragedy that he has endured losing children, but, you know, his, he's had an incredible life. I, and, um, you know, best wishes to him. But it does bring up some really big issues. And, and-

Kara Swisher 10:03 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 10:03 ... what... First off, the cover-up. Yeah, it was a cover-up. And guess what? Anyone with aging parents, we all are co-conspirators in this cover-up. Because your parents, their, their brain shrinks and they don't realize no- They, they think it's insane that you take their driver's license from them.

Kara Swisher 10:22 Yep.

Scott Galloway 10:22 Were you kidding? I beat Trump. I'm pushing back on Russia. I passed the Infrastructure Act.

Kara Swisher 10:29 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 10:29 Of course I can be president for another four years.

Kara Swisher 10:32 Right.

Scott Galloway 10:32 I mean, that was a less crazy statement than a lot of the shit my dad said at 70.

Kara Swisher 10:37 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 10:38 I mean, you're going through the same thing.

Kara Swisher 10:39 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 10:40 So... And not only that, the people around you have tremendous goodwill and affection for you, and they get co-opted into believing, "Uh, oh, maybe he can go another four years." So-

Kara Swisher 10:50 Right. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 10:51 ... there wasn't anything sinister here. There's what happens a lot. And for me, this all goes to the same place.

Kara Swisher 10:55 Very good point thought.

Scott Galloway 10:56 And that is, we need age limits, folks. Biology is undefeated. It's absolutely undefeated, no mat- uh, matter how... I, I'm, I am- I c- I was the first to come out of the closet as an ageist and say this guy was too old, and Bill Maher called me an ageist and I said, "I am an ageist. You know who else is?"

Kara Swisher 11:12 Yeah, you got a lot of shit. I'll tell you that. You did get a lot of shit.

Scott Galloway 11:14 You know who was also an ageist?

Kara Swisher 11:16 Who?

Scott Galloway 11:16 Biology.

Kara Swisher 11:17 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 11:17 Biology always wins. And the reality is, this would have put the nation in a real pickle, because you would have had a president-

Kara Swisher 11:24 If he had won.

Scott Galloway 11:24 ... who probably wouldn't have handed over the mantle, say he'd been reelected, who probably wouldn't ever handed over the mantle to Vice President Harris, 'cause quite frankly, Joe Biden is a wonderful man, he's also a narcissist, and would've made the country's leadership less robust. We need... We have, we have made a decision that 34-year-olds don't have the experience, the cognitive abilities, the reasoning, and the judgment to be president. A 74-year-old probably doesn't. Now, I, I'm sure there'll be... I'm sure there's a 100-year-old that will do the marathon and does the New York Times crossword puzzle every day.

Kara Swisher 11:58 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 11:59 We need age limits at the upper limit.

Kara Swisher 12:02 What's your age limit again? I forgot.

Scott Galloway 12:03 I would probably say 75. 70 or 75.

Kara Swisher 12:07 Yeah, it's interesting 'cause a lot of places are 65. Like the New York Times editor is 65, right? There's, there's like... I would say, um, 70.

Scott Galloway 12:15 Well, and this is the thing. It's not only-

Kara Swisher 12:18 70. 75 maybe.

Scott Galloway 12:18 There's so many benefits to this. One-We're about to, the Trump Administration is about to pass through a ridiculous, a ridiculous tax bill and all the goodies go to old people. Why? Because our Congress is a cross between The Golden Girls and the land of The Walking Dead, so they keep voting themselves more money, and great young people who understand technology and have a tendency to think more about climate change and the deficit, 'cause they're gonna be around for 50 years. Do you realize in 30 years, that three quarters of Congress is going to be dead? So this creates a lack of vested interest in forward-leaning future investments. In addition, you, y- you end up with a situation where, I see this happen in universities where tenured faculty won't go away, creating a lack of opportunity.

Kara Swisher 13:04 You've been talking about this for a while, you, about the tenure system, you don't love the tenure.

Scott Galloway 13:07 Well, a- and not only that, it's, it's the kindest thing to do because, uh, and- and I'm, I'm bragging here, but I'm typic- I'm oftentimes on the board, people go like, "He's the asshole, let him have the hard conversations."

Kara Swisher 13:19 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 13:19 I've had two conversations with CEOs who were aging to say, "It's time for you to step down."

Kara Swisher 13:25 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 13:25 I've also had conversations with other directors who stepped down from the CEO of their company, and the only thing they have is that fucking board directorship, where they show up at-

Kara Swisher 13:34 Right. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 13:34 ... free dinner every three months and speak big thoughts, and they love saying, "I'm on the board of this public company."

Kara Swisher 13:39 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 13:40 And here's the thing that's wonderful about tem- term limits and age limits, is you can send people off and say, "You've been amazing, here's your gold watch now."

Kara Swisher 13:47 Right, and then it's not the excuse. But you do, there is a sense of, like people who want to hold on. I was at a-

Scott Galloway 13:54 Oh, yeah.

Kara Swisher 13:54 ... one of these, one of these, like, clubs on the Upper East Side and it was full of those guys, and I kept thinking, "They just can't let it go. They can't..." You know what I mean? Like, it was interesting.

Scott Galloway 14:03 But you see why. I had one of these conversations, not with a CEO but with a director.

Kara Swisher 14:07 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 14:07 And he was like, he said... I remember he was very gracious about it, he said, "I know this was a hard conversation." He goes, a- and you know what he said? He said, "You know what? At the end of the day," he's like, "it's time for me to go home and die." And that's how people see this, is, "Wait, you wanna send me home?"

Kara Swisher 14:20 Yeah, they know it.

Scott Galloway 14:20 "This is all I have."

Kara Swisher 14:21 But, you know, that's the issue with my mom too. She knows, right? They know this is it, this is the... If they have to stop, it mean- or they stop at getting decision-making power or power whatever. In Biden's case, it's just tragic because it- it puts a, I wanna get it back to Biden, but the ending of this is not good. It's not a good thing. And especially when you have crazy fucking MAGA people. They were going on about Jill Biden not knowing about... She's not a medical doctor, people. She's his wife, really, and so-

Scott Galloway 14:49 Yeah, but-

Kara Swisher 14:50 ... she's gonna hold on.

Scott Galloway 14:50 ... she does call herself doctor. That was a mistake.

Kara Swisher 14:52 Uh, what?

Scott Galloway 14:52 She does call herself doctor.

Kara Swisher 14:53 Uh, she is, has a doctorate. Whatever. In any case, th- th- th- this has not ended well, and this is how it often happens. It d- people don't end well. Can you make me a promise? Can we end well?

Scott Galloway 15:06 So to, to, to be clear.

Kara Swisher 15:09 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 15:09 I mean, I'm, I'm not obsessed with death but I-

Kara Swisher 15:11 Right.

Scott Galloway 15:11 ... I'm, I'm looking-

Kara Swisher 15:12 Me too, you know it.

Scott Galloway 15:14 I, I think a lot about it. I have set aside money.

Kara Swisher 15:16 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 15:17 I wanna, I know where I wanna die. I know the drugs, I know the people. I have set up-

Kara Swisher 15:21 Oh.

Scott Galloway 15:21 I wanna watch Apple, I wanna live my life again. I've thought about the Apple reels, I've thought about the music, and I wanna, like that great Mexican artist, uh, Frida...

Kara Swisher 15:29 Frida Kahlo.

Scott Galloway 15:30 Frida Ca- ... Uh, I want my death to be glorious and I don't wanna come back. I wanna, I'm, I purposely, and also-

Kara Swisher 15:37 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 15:37 ... I've decided at a certain age, I'm done. I'm off of social media-

Kara Swisher 15:42 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 15:42 ... and I'm not going, I'm just going to enjoy relationships and do just fun shit. Because you know what? At... You have to, you have an obligation at some point to make room for other people.

Kara Swisher 15:55 Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 15:56 To say, "Okay."

Kara Swisher 15:57 It's true.

Scott Galloway 15:58 "I- i- it's time to give a f- fresh voices-"

Kara Swisher 16:01 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 16:01 "... an opportunity here. It's time to create some room at the top of the pyramid." There are so many outstanding-

Kara Swisher 16:09 Yeah, I feel the same way.

Scott Galloway 16:10 ... young people who should be running for-

Kara Swisher 16:11 I feel the same way, except I'm not going out like you, I'm just gonna let nature take its course with Kara Swisher. But I'll be there for you if you want that.

Scott Galloway 16:17 I appreciate that. But-

Kara Swisher 16:18 Yeah, I'll do an interpretive dance in front of you just before you die.

Scott Galloway 16:21 (laughs) You'll have to start climbing on my climbing wall.

Kara Swisher 16:24 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 16:24 So...

Kara Swisher 16:24 Anyway, we have to move on. This is getting dark.

Scott Galloway 16:26 Okay.

Kara Swisher 16:26 Moody's has,

Kara Swisher 16:27 speaking of something that's not doing so well, Moody's has officially downgraded the US credit rating. You wrote me right away about this. Stripping the country of its last AAA rating, of the last o- o- of the three major agencies. Moody's blamed the downgrade on successive administrations and Congress failing to reverse the trend of large annual fiscal def- deficits and growing interest costs. The credit downgrade comes as Republicans try to pass Trump's big beautiful bill. I'm sure you would not call it that. Um, a sweeping tax and spending package estimated to increase the deficit by about four trillion dollars. The bill cleared the House Budget Committee late Sunday night after initially getting blocked by some GOP deficit hawks. They never hold on, these hawks. It sucks. In terms of the market reaction as of this recording, stocks are down and the 30-year Treasury yield just hit its highest level in a year and a half. Uh, you texted me, "This is big," when the Moody's news broke. Um, explain to people why this downgrade is more than a symbolic move. Um, Scott Bessent was all over, uh, the, the TVs on the weekend calling it, uh, the, calling dismissed Moodys, calling it a lagging indicator on Meet the Press. He also said it's no big deal that consumers have to pay tariff money. Of cour- he- he admitted they will have to and it won't be China that's paying. And by the way, there's a new acronym for people ditching American investments, which you've talked about a lot. ABUSA, Anywhere But The USA. So talk a little bit about this, 'cause you wro- this is, you don't, you do not respond to a lot of stuff when we text you or I text you. Um, this one, you did.

Scott Galloway 17:55 Everything just got a little bit more expensive for every American. We, we were talking about corporate boards and companies. We spend a lot of time assessing the marketplace and trying to figure out, when we go out and borrow money for growth, how we ensure we get the highest rating possible from the a- these agencies whose job is to do the diligence that most investors don't have the time to do. And then based on the rating they give you, saying what is the likelihood-... of default? What is the likelihood or the risk that these, this entity won't be able to pay back the money? And based on the rating, it's the interest rate you have to pay to people in order for them to take the risk and loan you money. And if you get a good rating and you say, "You know what? Let's not borrow as much money. Let's borrow less such that our multiple, our debt to," call it EBITDA ratio, "is a little bit lower, and we get a better credit rating, and we can borrow money at a lower cost, meaning that the interest on that debt is not as big, so we can make more investments in forward-leaning growth-related investments." And oftentimes, if you get to a point where you keep borrowing more and more money, and then start borrowing money to pay the debt, which we are doing now, it causes a downward spiral, where at some point, you begin to look like a Donald Trump enterprise where he's done the following. "I'll borrow money from anyone who's stupid enough to loan me money for my casino, and if it works out and all the projections hit, I can pay it back and make a lot of money. And if it doesn't work out, I'll just declare default." Okay, declaring default in the United States would be really bad for all of us. I mean, people... I can't even imagine what might happen. You might see ATMs stop working. And so essentially, what has happened here is f- is the third and final agency of the Big Three has said, "Our ability to pay back our debt based on the reckless fiscal policy, our reckless spending and inability to raise taxes or raise revenues, means that we are now a larger risk than we were just last year. And as a result, every American is gonna have to pay more on their student loans, their credit cards, on their mortgages. And companies will likely have to pay more, meaning we will have less money to invest and grow." This is a big deal.

Kara Swisher 20:04 Along with the tariffs, which we're... Which Besen was admitting finally.

Scott Galloway 20:08 But the deficits here, they're talking about adding $4.5 trillion to the deficits. And again, see above, catering to old people in America, they're not cutting Social Security, they're not cutting Medicare for old people, 'cause even old rich people like their Medicare. They're cutting Medicaid. Supposedly about eight million people are gonna lose their Medicaid.

Kara Swisher 20:26 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 20:27 So, young people-

Kara Swisher 20:28 So, a sicker populous. Sicker populous.

Scott Galloway 20:28 Young... We'll have a sicker populous. They're cutting SNAP payments, which by the way show a 2% to 7% return on investment as little kids don't grow up to have diabetes and need hip repla- replacements and kidney dialysis. So, let's cut... It's as if... We're literally in a movie here, and America is Nicolas Cage in Leaving Las Vegas, and he's thought, "I'm just so fucking rabidly addicted to alcohol, as American old people are too addicted to spending above their means, that I'm just gonna ig- ignore the future and I'm just gonna drink myself to death, because all of my debts and all of my relationships don't matter because I'm gonna be dead soon." This is literally how we're behaving in the United States right now, because we are borrowing, according to this tax plan, $5 trillion from our kids, and we'll... It- it- i- i- i- the chickens won't come to roost while we're s- while we're still, still alive, but they will come to roost, and our kids are gonna have to pay this shit back.

Kara Swisher 21:26 Right, or do it, pay it forward again, which is what, you know, what happens, and it, at some point, it does spin out of control. Th- the fact that, it, it... What people don't understand, Donald Trump is the one that has increased the deficit more than any other president in the history of the presidency.

Scott Galloway 21:40 George Washington to George Bush, $7 trillion. Donald Trump, $8 trillion. And by the way, uh, Biden continued it with $5 trillion, and now everyone... It's like that, that number, I think, of negative 40. Negative 40 is where Celsius and Fahrenheit meet. That is a really un- inhospitable, bad environment.

Kara Swisher 22:00 It is.

Scott Galloway 22:00 And whenever the far left and the far right meet, that means it's an inhospitable, bad idea. The far left and the far right meet on anti-vaccine craziness, they meet on antisemitism, and they meet on reckless spending and tax cuts such that we can explode the deficit.

Kara Swisher 22:14 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 22:14 This is negative 40.

Kara Swisher 22:15 Why don't these GOP deficit hawks ever stick? I mean, seriously, they never stick. I'm like waiting. Chip Roy, get yourself a fucking backbone. You're, you- you say it out loud, and you say, "I'm not gonna do this," and then every time, you get Mike Johnson. I don't know what he's doing to you, but it, it's like, like the... You're the only people that can stop this, and you won't. So, really what you're saying is crap, really, I have to say. I'm always-

Scott Galloway 22:39 And so, uh, I mean, I- I hate the moral argument I'm gonna make. It's so cruel because no, they're not talking about... I- I could sort of at least theoretically get on board with the following. We have to make really painful cuts.

Kara Swisher 22:51 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 22:51 I would make them around Social Security. I'd make them probably around some of our military spending. You know, w- I'm sympathetic to the argument of we- we are fiscally irresponsible, we are robbing from future generations, so we have to make really ugly, painful cuts. It's terrible-

Kara Swisher 23:06 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 23:06 ... but it sucks to be an adult. But we're gonna match every dollar cut one-to-one or two-to-one with an increase in revenues by increasing the taxes on corporations, and we're gonna have an alternative minimum tax on anyone saying, m- making more than $1 million. I could hold my nose and get on board with that. But all these, quote-unquote, "fiscal hawks"-

Kara Swisher 23:28 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 23:28 ... aren't saying, "We need to talk about the other side of the ledger and raise revenues." What they're saying is, "These Medicare cuts... I'm sorry, these Medicaid cuts don't go deep enough."

Kara Swisher 23:39 Right.

Scott Galloway 23:40 And I mean, this shit is really scary-

Kara Swisher 23:42 Correct.

Scott Galloway 23:42 ... for some people, and it's not only immoral, it's, it's uneconomic.

Kara Swisher 23:48 Stupid. It's economically stupid. That's... If you appeal to their greed, you're gonna have a sick, fat-... a struggling, angry population under you, who can't earn and have no economic opportunities. You know where that's gonna go. Anyway, uh, let's go on a quick break. Uh, when we come back, Trump, uh, gets pissy with Walmart and Apple.

Kara Swisher 24:08 Scott, we're back. President Trump spent the weekend bullying Walmart after the company's CEO said some of the prices could rise within weeks because of the tariffs, obviously. In a post on Truth Social, Trump told Walmart to eat the tariffs and warned, "I'll be watching and so will your customers." Scott Besson said that he's spoken with Walmart's CEO and that the company will absorb some of the tariffs and some may get passed on to consumers. About one-third of Walmart's products come from outside the US, with a large share coming from China and Mexico. And it's not just Walmart. Trump's taking aim at Apple too. He says that he had a little problem with T- CEO Tim Cook after hearing the company plans to ramp up iPhone production in India. Apple's trying to cut its reliance on China and aiming to make the most- I- m- make most of the iPhones sold in the US at factories in India by the end of 2026. Apple announced that $500 billion investment in the US back in February, but apparently that's not enough for Trump. Um, let's listen as Trump recount his conversation with Tim Cook.

Donald Trump 25:03 Tim, I said, "Tim, look. We've treated you really good. We put up with all the plants that you built in China for years. Now you gotta build us ... We're not interested in you building in India. India can take care of themselves, they're doing very well, y- we want you to build here."

Kara Swisher 25:19 So, uh, two things. Very meddlesome with the companies in terms of how they should price it and, and putting reality, tariffs cost money and they're gonna pass them onto consumers. Uh, what d- what is this I'll be watching strategy and telling people where to build, and ... Thoughts?

Scott Galloway 25:34 Well, we've talked about this before. We've seen a separation between church and state-

Kara Swisher 25:38 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 25:38 ... but that separation began to erode. And just as important from an economic standpoint is the separation between, uh, business and state. And that is, uh, Obama shouldn't have been picking winners. Uh, y- y- I, I agree with that. And the- and he shouldn't be deciding based on his blood sugar level or who he likes or doesn't like. He shouldn't be singling out companies because that, that is a form of corruption, because everyone lines up to just kiss his ass. And not only that, he's a terrible business person. Do you realize that since the iPhone was launched, Apple has trained over 28 million Chinese workers on high-tech manufacturing? And also, they make about 500 bucks a month, or at least an entry-level, uh, assembler in Chi- we're n- we're not bringing those jobs back to the US. It- they've also invested about fi- they invest about $55 billion a year into the Chinese economy, which you could argue is the wrong investment or stupid. That's- I mean, they've made these extraordinary investments and if you were to bring back, which y- well, you feasibly just can't do it, but let's just say for shits and giggles we brought back manufacturing the iPhone to the US. That's a $3,500 iPhone.

Kara Swisher 26:52 Yeah. Well, you j- you said i- i- there's a, there's a statistic, would need to spend $30 billion over three years to move 10, just 10% of its supply chain to the US, according to one estimate, and you had noted that, that the tariff was gonna help India. Like, I, I just ... It's not gonna happen. It's just simply not gonna happen. But talk more about this I'll be watching. Does it, does it, does it ... At some point do they not, they just ignore him or what?

Scott Galloway 27:17 I think what they say is, "We're going, you know, the president is right, we need to build more manufacturing in the US. We're announcing ..." And just say, "Okay, the supply chain here is the most complex supply chain in history. We're gonna start to build stuff. I know what it's like to get zoning and NIMBY. It's gonna take a year, da, da, da," and just wait til he's about, until he's out of office. Because to bring the supply chain of ... to produce Apple at 50% of the capacity they would need in the US, I mean, A, would probably crush their market by 50, or their market share by 50 or 60 points, and probably take the most-held stock in the world down 40 or 60% within a year if they ever really said they were gonna try and do that. People, uh, people can afford a 30- I mean, uh, uh, the market for a $1,000 iPhone is probably 5 or 8X what the market is for a $3,500 iPhone.

Kara Swisher 28:13 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 28:13 I mean, that's-

Kara Swisher 28:13 I'd even be like, "Mm-mm."

Scott Galloway 28:14 That, that's a lot of money. And then they-

Kara Swisher 28:16 It is.

Scott Galloway 28:16 Well, all, all the stories would be, "Oh, you just ... That's a huge gift to the Korean company, Samsung."

Kara Swisher 28:21 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 28:22 So that's just not gonna happen. So what I bet they do is, a couple press releases about how we're- he's right, we're gonna invest more in American manufacturing. You know, if, if ... The real opportunity here, I think, going to solutions in my view, is to kiss and make up with China and to convince them to use some of their manufacturing pro- prowess to build factories in the US, similar to the way Japanese automobile companies have built Japanese car brand plants in the US. But even then, it would have to be super high-end manufacturing because ... to justify the cost of our labor. Um, anyways, this is, this is a distraction. Um, uh, Walmart gets about, I think, about a third of its products are imported. Um, they will just ... And Walmart, if he wants to take on Walmart and Apple, I think that is, you know, that's crazy. And then this ridiculous notion that Scott Basena saying, "Well, Walmart is gonna eat the tariffs," Walmart operates ... Walmart's whole value proposition-

Kara Swisher 29:22 It's tight.

Scott Galloway 29:23 ... is it, it passes on cost savings to the consumer. They operate at a business of scale with very low margins-

Kara Swisher 29:29 Low margins.

Scott Galloway 29:29 But it's got more scale than any company in the world. I think it's the biggest top-line company-

Kara Swisher 29:32 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 29:33 ... in the world. So the notion that they can absorb these costs and not pass them on to consumers-

Kara Swisher 29:37 That's ridiculous.

Scott Galloway 29:38 It's just not... I mean, okay, say they decided to do that for the benefit of consumers. That takes their earnings down, which takes their share price down, which means-

Kara Swisher 29:46 Which takes their hiring down, which takes their ...

Scott Galloway 29:47 Which means the wealth of American households go down, which means they make fewer investments, fewer hires-

Kara Swisher 29:52 Right. Right.

Scott Galloway 29:52 Less money for bonuses. I mean, okay, that's a cost. You might argue, well, that hurts shareholders. Fine, you can make that argument. But folks, they've got a business to run and they will figure out a way to optimize their margins-

Kara Swisher 30:05 Correct.

Scott Galloway 30:06 And it'll, it'll di-

Kara Swisher 30:07 He, he is living-...in a different era.

Scott Galloway 30:09 He's a shitty business person. He doesn't understand economics.

Kara Swisher 30:12 He is, but he's living in an era that doesn't exist anymore. It's rid- anyway, we have to move on. It's just ridiculous. He shouldn't be meddling, putting his fat fingers, fat Schwarz fingers in the, in people's corporate decision-making. Um, Meta

Kara Swisher 30:24 is delaying the release of its Behemoth, its largest LLaMA 4 AI model. Behemoth was originally scheduled to be released in April, but the company is now aiming for fall. Um, you know, these, uh, th- this is, this is something that seemed expected, that these, these me- these, th- these AI models would run into, um, problems as they move forward. Um, uh, another problem Meta's facing though is fraud. According to documents reviewed by the Wall Street Journal, Meta's the leader in the pack when it comes to internet scams. The tech giant claimed nearly half of all reported scams on Zelle between, uh, 2023 and '24. Regulators in the UK and Australia found that 70% of the new advertisers on the platform were promoting scams or low-quality products. Of course they'll take their business. However, employees have reported a reluctance to limit advertisers reporting, allowing up to 32 automated strikes before f- uh, financial fraud, uh, for financial fraud before banning accounts. I mean, seriously. Uh, seriously. And meanwhile, over at places like Microsoft, they're laying off 3% of its staff. Over 40% of layoffs were in engineering. The cuts come after Satya Nadella announced up to 30% of the company's code is now written by AI. He himself is now listening to podcasts by AI, and he, they, they synopsize them so he doesn't have to listen to the whole thing. Um, which was a weird little fact that was in one of the stories. Um, so w- what's going on here? Let's talk first about l- the difficulties that, that AI is running into, and then the difficulties that tech companies are running into.

Scott Galloway 31:56 It's, uh... So I'm involved in a company called Section, which is, um, upskilling, uh, AI for the enterprise, right? Trying to help companies figure out how to leverage AI. And the CEO of the company, my friend, Greg Shove... I, you know, my whole rap has always been that AI's not gonna take your job. Someone who understands AI's gonna take your job. And he said, "Well, some of that's true, but AI is in fact taking jobs," and there's been a real kind of gag from a lot of employees if you... They're very suspicious of AI at the enterprise. Like, "Okay, a- are you asking me to cooperate in my own execution here?" Um, th- this will be great for Microsoft's bottom line. I mean, uh, you know, that is, that is absolutely the nitroglycerin about an explosion in earnings, is when you can reduce, you know, these costs, and they claim that it's more about efficiency and not, not cost-cutting. On a personal level, I've been... I don't wanna call myself a, uh, not a victim, but I started getting text messages of a video, and it... And s- and a few people say, that I didn't know that. "Well, should I do this?" And I click on it, and it's a video that was running on Instagram, and it was me saying, uh, I'm... Uh, each week get my three best stock tips. Uh, right now on the, the WhatsApp, I have a WhatsApp group, and it was, and it was... It looked pretty good on a phone. On a computer, you could tell it was AI, but it looked pretty good. And people were sending it to me saying, "Are you aware of this? Should I do this?" So someone, a scammer, had figured out a way to create an AI representation of me trying to get bill people and they're spending money to join a WhatsApp group where I would make, quote unquote, "stock picks". We complained vociferously early and often to Meta. You can still find it, Kara.

Kara Swisher 33:47 Yep.

Scott Galloway 33:47 They don't care.

Kara Swisher 33:49 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 33:49 It's like, "Oh, people are clicking on it?" (laughs)

Kara Swisher 33:51 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 33:52 So these scams are-

Kara Swisher 33:54 I was just wondering.

Scott Galloway 33:54 And what I don't get is... And they could absolutely use AI themselves to figure out this shit and take shit down.

Kara Swisher 34:01 Yeah, they want more advertisers. Do you remember when Amazon was doing books of mine that weren't books of mine? It's the same thing. I mean, the- but these companies don't want to fix this stuff. Otherwise, they would clean it up. Like, it was... They want more advertisers. They, they, they leave con- It's the consistent record of this company to screw consumers before themselves, like before fixing the problem or, or taking the costs, uh, that it would take to do this, because they, they just wanna g-... I mean, can you imagine that many knocks before you get thrown off? Like, do you need that many knocks before you... 32 automated strikes f- for financial fraud before banning accounts. Like, it's just... Why isn't it two or five, or why don't we investigate after five and then dump after 10 or something? It just is... It's, it's a company that doesn't care about that, because, um, they're just... You know, uh, and these companies will cut... Let me just say, software engineers, they will cut you tomorrow if... The minute they can have AI write this code. They are in love with it. They- they're in love with the savings, as Scott said, and they will do it, because that's what they do. They are very good at becoming more efficient. And, and of course, people are hardly their concern. That's my... That's always been my impression.

Scott Galloway 35:15 Yeah, and I, and, and, and to be fair, I think that's what they should do, but-

Kara Swisher 35:18 Yeah. I agree.

Scott Galloway 35:18 ... they should use technology to become more efficient and reinvest the capital in, in higher growth areas.

Kara Swisher 35:22 Make sense.

Scott Galloway 35:23 The, the thing that struck me, uh, just talking about the difference between new media, Meta, and old media-

Kara Swisher 35:29 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 35:29 ... the New York Times, there's clear AI financial fraud-

Kara Swisher 35:34 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 35:34 ... trying to misrepresent people and scam people. Doesn't get taken down.

Kara Swisher 35:38 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 35:38 Do you know how many times that reporter from the New York Times doing the story on you called me to fact check shit?

Kara Swisher 35:44 53. Right, yeah.

Scott Galloway 35:45 Oh my God.

Kara Swisher 35:46 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 35:46 "Where did you get that? You told us this number. Where'd you get it?" And I'd have to walk him through the math and go-

Kara Swisher 35:50 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 35:51 ... "Okay, are you sure?"

Kara Swisher 35:52 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 35:52 Yeah, and then he'd call me back and say, "But define the term profits and top-" The guy spent three or four days going line by line such that he could look anyone in the face and say, "What we wrote here was-"

Kara Swisher 36:06 Is accurate.

Scott Galloway 36:06 "... close to the truth and is accurate as we could be."

Kara Swisher 36:08 Yep.Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 36:09 And then you have Meta. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 36:11 Right, yeah. That's a really-

Scott Galloway 36:12 Putting out AI representations.

Kara Swisher 36:13 That is a really good point. He called yesterday. He... Or two days ago. Yesterday, he had, like, "Can I call these 19 people to check..." Something that didn't even make it in the story, some of them. You know, they got caught later. You're right, that is a... Scott, once again, you're insightful in a really profound way.

Scott Galloway 36:28 You, you're just, you're just feeling affectionate 'cause I let you use my climbing wall.

Kara Swisher 36:31 I love your climbing wall. It's a, it's really...

Scott Galloway 36:31 Whose idea was that?

Kara Swisher 36:33 It's really... Take a picture of me on the climbing wall. That's a photography... Yeah, I look good on the climbing wall. Be admitful. It look... It was a good idea.

Scott Galloway 36:39 Oh, God.

Kara Swisher 36:39 It was a good idea.

Scott Galloway 36:39 You look like Hervé Villechaize-

Kara Swisher 36:40 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 36:40 ... like, summiting Everest for a fundraiser.

Kara Swisher 36:43 You'd matter who was in your studio. Anyway-

Scott Galloway 36:44 You're like-

Kara Swisher 36:44 ... we're moving on. We're going on a quick break. We're gonna talk about a topic.

Scott Galloway 36:46 You're Tyrion Lannister-

Kara Swisher 36:48 Yeah, okay. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 36:48 ... going up a master. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 36:49 And who was the hero of that series?

Scott Galloway 36:52 He's the protagonist. Although I did like Jamie. I did like Jamie. He loved his sister, but he also loved Brienne of Tarth. He evolved from a horrible man to a good man.

Kara Swisher 37:01 Yes, Jamie was good, but-

Scott Galloway 37:02 Very complicated, very complex.

Kara Swisher 37:03 But the short guy-

Scott Galloway 37:04 Very complex.

Kara Swisher 37:05 ... was the hero of that entire thing. Anyway, Scott, uh, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, uh, Novo Nordisk pushes out its CEO. This is a topic I'm eager to hear... talk to you about.

Scott Galloway 37:14 I so should have married a wildling.

Kara Swisher 37:17 Scott,

Kara Swisher 37:18 we're back. Ozempic maker Novo Nordisk has pushed out its CEO as it loses ground in the anti-obesity drug market. Lars Jorgensen, who has run the company for eight years, will step down following the stock price dives and impatience from, uh, the nonprofit that controls the company. In recent years, the company has struggled with supply shortages in the production of Wegovy and the steep competition from Eli Lilly's Mounjaro and Zepbound, to say nothing of the, of the knockoffs that are happening, which they're trying to rein in, but it's not... They're not being as successful. They're trying. Novo Nordisk shares have fallen over 50% since 2024 and had a huge upsurge when this became popular. And while we're on the topic, Weight Watchers filed for bankruptcy, which was another prediction win for you, Scott, by the way. Um, talk about what's happening here, because, you know, we had talked about these industries going to the moon. It's sort of like Nvidia going to the moon because of people interested in it. But it turns out even if you have a successful thing, watch out if you're not running it strongly or you don't... You c- you have to keep in competi- once the competition shows. Same thing, see Tesla, see all these things.

Scott Galloway 38:19 Yeah, but this was... Asphalt to Motoran basically said that Novo Nordisk is a good company, but it's not an exceptionally innovative company. And they kind of slipped and fell on a diabetes drug that also had use across o- GLP-1 obesity. But it wasn't, it wasn't kind of this great innovation. And they wrote it up. And your job, when you're blessed with that sort of extraordinary luck and additional capital, is to create moats. And that either through distribution or branding or preference at the doctor level. And then in the US, I forget what it's called, there, the... A bunch of drugs were given clearance sort of off-label because of the shortages. And I imagine the board has just said, "Look, you had a moment to really take advantage of what is probably a once-in-a-career-lifetime moment and create some barriers or brand equity or lock up distribution to maintain." And my guess is their margins are just getting hammered by all of these competitors. I honestly, quite frankly, I think his loss is probably the world's gain, meaning that there's competition and they're not able to sustain their kind of u- illustrious margins. I would... I think one of the biggest unlocks for healthcare would be if GLP-1 drugs went down to 10 bucks a month instead of 1,000 a month because this is... If you look at... You know, if you look at the delta between $6,500 a year per capita health spend and $13,000, a lot of it is insurance, um, a lot of it is complexity of billing, and a lot of it is obesity. And so I'd love to see... I, I was happy to see this, quite frankly, 'cause I don't want to see... If Novo Nordisk had gone... It's been cut in half, but if it had quadrupled in the last year, that just would have meant probably additional penetration, but also that they were able to figure out ways to monopolize a market where they were charging people $1,000 a month to stay on this.

Kara Swisher 40:03 Too much, yeah. Yeah. So, what about the Weight Watchers one? This is a prediction you made. Um, obviously they were trying to get into this market. They have been with the CEO. I've interviewed her. They were trying to shift. They've been trying to... They keep shift-... I have had so many interviews with so many CEOs of Weight Watchers, and the shifting has been really hard. And I think at its heart is their business model doesn't work anymore in the new environment. Um, but they tried to go to these drugs, and they tried this, and they tried that. They tried to call it WW. They tried to do a different thing all the time. Why did you predict that, and what do you think of what's happened?

Scott Galloway 40:35 At the end of '23, and I heard from all of these companies, I said, "You do not want to be an investor in alcohol stocks, in the food industrial complex around sugary, shitty food, or in, uh, weight loss that doesn't involve GLP-1." And I had logos-

Kara Swisher 40:49 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 40:49 ... including the logos of Weight Watchers. And I'm like, "I don't..." I, I typically make stock bets going long, and in November of '23, I made a huge... Uh, my big recommendation was to go short all of these companies. Uh, m- my technology of t- the year of 2024 wasn't AI. I said that in '23. It was GLP-1. I, I think it's more revolutionary than AI, quite frankly. And, uh, while everyone's focused on AI, they're not looking at what, what America's economy is run on is addiction. And this is the biggest thing. This is scaffolding on our primitive instincts that haven't been updated to industrial production. And Weight Watchers was just, quite frankly, shitty technology, uh, you know, that, that just shouldn't be in business. I love this. This is capitalism at work. I don't-

Kara Swisher 41:32 Yeah. So what are you... What, what are you... Where is this gonna go? This is something you've talked... You talked about this very early. Where do you imagine these bi-... It's just more competition, just the way EVs are doing that and lots of people are, are... You know, at, at the same time, EV is, is still a very rocky business, and, um, people aren't... The uptake is still not there for consumers. It's, it's growing, but not in the way people thought it would.

Scott Galloway 41:55 This has such extraordinary potential.

Kara Swisher 41:58 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 41:59 You know-

Kara Swisher 41:59 Who's the winner here?

Scott Galloway 42:01 Well, I don't... Uh, so, so this is what I'm hoping.

Kara Swisher 42:04 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 42:04 I'm hoping there's a lot of companies that make billions, but I'm hoping there aren't that many that make hundreds of billions.

Kara Swisher 42:09 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 42:09 Because one of the biggest...... detriments to society is that there aren't more industries like the airline industry or jet manufacturing or PCs where no small number of companies are able to develop monopoly power through regulatory capture-

Kara Swisher 42:22 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 42:23 ... and the cost to get from Paris to New York is only $400, which is an incredible unlock for the economy and for consumers.

Kara Swisher 42:30 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 42:30 And I think an incredible unlock for the health of the world, and ultimately lower taxation because we end up paying for obesity in the form of Medicare, Medicaid, or depression. Do you realize that people who are good-looking on average make 8% more per year in compensation?

Kara Swisher 42:47 Yes, I do.

Scott Galloway 42:48 (laughs) And (laughs) you get nine, right?

Kara Swisher 42:51 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 42:52 Especially if they can climb.

Kara Swisher 42:52 As you read in the New York Times, go ahead.

Scott Galloway 42:53 Especially if they can climb. As she scales her empire even bigger.

Kara Swisher 42:57 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 42:58 Um, and you know what? Uh, overweight people? The industrial food complex decided it would be politically correct to tell people who are now finding diabetes they're finding their truth-

Kara Swisher 43:07 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 43:07 ... and that it's okay to be obese. Do you need empathy for them? Yeah. But also, rec- recognize they're more likely to be depressed and get laid off-

Kara Swisher 43:15 Mm.

Scott Galloway 43:15 ... and have trouble finding a mate.

Kara Swisher 43:17 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 43:17 And so, I- I would love to see ... You want to talk about an unlock? Get people the money such that they can work out, get people the money such that they can eat good food, and if they start spilling over from being overweight to obesity, immediately get them affordable GLP-1 drugs. So get this. In 2023, the neighborhood with the greatest concentration of GLP-1 use was also the neighborhood that's the thinnest in the nation, and that's the Upper East Side, kind of ladies of lunch looking to lose the last 10. Now, good news is the latest data shows that the state of Kentucky leads the nation, uh, in GLP-1 use now. But if you, if you shoved GLP-1 drugs into red states and rural areas where people, because they don't have enough money, have to adjust their calories through fast food-

Kara Swisher 44:00 They'd start calling themselves they/them then, but go ahead. What, what would happen?

Scott Galloway 44:02 Well, no, it- it- it would be a huge unlock. Uh, so this is ... I- I- I just hope, I really hope that we see a world where GLP-1 drugs, where there's just massive, bloody, ugly, h- full-body-contact competition that brings the cost of these things way, way down.

Kara Swisher 44:20 That would be great. Good point. All right, Scott. One more quick rake. We'll be back for wins and fails.

Kara Swisher 44:27 Okay, Scott, let's do wins and fails. I shall start today.

Scott Galloway 44:30 Please.

Kara Swisher 44:30 Unless you want to. Would you like to start?

Scott Galloway 44:32 No, no, go ahead.

Kara Swisher 44:33 All right. So the fail is so obviously Amazon announcing that it will work with Humane, the AI company launched by Mohammed bin Salman to build, uh, an AI zone in Saudi Arabia. For people that know, uh, a lot of the Arab states are trying very hard to become the data center. There's all kinds of privacy issues, et cetera, but they're trying really hard to do that. The only issue with something like Amazon is that in 2018, Jamal Khashoggi, a writer for the Bezos-owned Washington Post was killed and dismembered with the approval of the Saudi Crown Prince. Um, I just ... I'm ... I just, like, this guy doesn't have any... Like, he- he- he- he was just appearing at his funeral saying how terrible it was, and then a year or two years later or whatever, "Hey, no problem." And it's fine. For other people, I guess they're all gonna show up there for this guy. Um, but it just was particularly vexing if you're, if you're a Washington Post person. And I know you don't feel bad for the Washington Post people, but, uh, dismembering and, and vivisecting a columnist is not something you should do business with. Um, I would say President Trump attacking Taylor Swift, Bruce Springsteen, and now apparently Beyonce, uh, Oprah. That he wants to sue them all and investigate them for singing for Kamala Harris is stupid, but I don't really care. It's just ridiculousness. Um, and for my win, well, obviously, it's gonna be, um, uh, Tom Cruise for this week, for this movie. Um, for final reckoning, I'm gonna go by myself. I'll probably see it multiple times. I don't care what you think of me, but, uh, that is, that is what I, that is ... I am so excited about it. It's a win that it's here and that Kara can finally be happy, uh, 'cause I've been waiting for it for a while. I love Mission Impossibles. I love them, love them, love them. So that's it.

Scott Galloway 46:12 Nice.

Kara Swisher 46:13 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 46:14 Um, so my win is, uh, experts, and specifically I'm obsessed with this woman. I'm getting ... I hate to admit, I'm getting so much reward (laughs) out of Instagram, uh, Reels-

Kara Swisher 46:28 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 46:28 ... and TikTok, and I found this wonderful doctor-

Kara Swisher 46:32 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 46:32 ... uh, who has a PhD in nutrition named ... I, and I apologize if I get her name wrong. Dr. Jessica Knurek, I think is how you say her s- name.

Kara Swisher 46:40 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 46:40 And I was one of these people that really fell into this notion that kind of the government had always chosen the least expensive option and was spraying our crops with just terrible pesticides, and that the food supply had been infected in America. And then I fell further into the trap because food does rot much quick- much more quickly here in the, in the UK, and I thought, "Okay, that means they're not being sprayed with pesticides." And then into that void slipped a lot of quacks pushing supplements, saying, "Okay, you can find this chemical that they're spraying on this stuff at Home Depot, and that's why you should buy my supplement." Or this basic thing, "You can't trust experts. You can't trust the CDC. You can't trust the NIH." And they were using this as a vehicle to create distrust amongst institutions and also for them that's quote-unquote "lifehack" or wellness experts to sell their shit despite the fact they have absolutely no, um, credentials. And this woman, um, is basically ... She is so good and science-based, and basically debunks all of this bullshit, and she acknowledges where they have some valid points and where they don't. And I just think she's fantastic. And, um, and she talks about ... She goes into public policies that actually, uh, work. You know, expert-led campaigns at the CDC and the World Health Organization are actually ... You know, they're responsible for multiple public health victories. Um, the World Health Organization reports an 8% decrease in tobacco usage globally since 2000. The CDC's push for measles vaccinations-... has presented 57 million deaths worldwide since just 2000. And, you know, it, her, her view, I'm so in line with her. If politicians wanna create policy that is more effective and more trusted by the American public, they should s, um, step aside and let scientists and health professionals-

Kara Swisher 48:31 100 fucking percent.

Scott Galloway 48:31 ... lead the charge. And I love, uh, she has a constant theme which I have parroted, and that is if these folks were really serious about health, they would address income inequality. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 48:42 That's correct.

Scott Galloway 48:43 And, uh, so anyways, I'm, I'm fascinated and I just love, I love when someone is making experts cool again, 'cause she's an expert and she's so good and so facts-based and so reasoned. And then what is my, what is-

Kara Swisher 48:58 Fail.

Scott Galloway 48:58 ... my loss here, Kara? Oh, um, uh, thanks to RFK Jr., vaccine misinformation is back in full throttle.

Kara Swisher 49:06 Ugh.

Scott Galloway 49:06 Clips of Trump's pick for surgeon general, Casey Means, discussing the link between autism and vaccines have surfaced. Uh, in addition, her claims of leaving medical residency because of disillusionment with the medical system, again, that you can't trust the deep state, well, someone did some research and found out that's total bullshit. She left because she couldn't handle the stress.

Kara Swisher 49:27 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 49:28 Not... She just couldn't ma- And by the way, I've dated someone who was in her residency, and I saw how, uh, kind of out of control.

Kara Swisher 49:35 Yep.

Scott Galloway 49:35 I do think it's too stressful.

Kara Swisher 49:37 Jeff Swisher. Jeff Swisher.

Scott Galloway 49:37 Well, it's sort of, it, it, it, there's a certain amount of what I call hazing involved.

Kara Swisher 49:42 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 49:42 She used to have to do 36-hour straight shifts. And I'm like-

Kara Swisher 49:45 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 49:45 ... on your 35th hour, you're probably not giving very good medical care, but there's-

Kara Swisher 49:48 Exactly.

Scott Galloway 49:48 ... a certain abused children syndrome.

Kara Swisher 49:50 I would agree. Um-

Scott Galloway 49:50 But that's, that's a different talk show.

Kara Swisher 49:53 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 49:53 But our, our new... Our old surgeon general, Vivek Murthy, is exactly who you would want talking about loneliness, talking about in- the impact and isolation of young men, really thinking thoughtfully about health issues. And here we have a vaccine denier who claims she left the medical profession because of, quote unquote, "the deep state" and she became disillusioned. No. Own up. Stand on your own two feet. You couldn't hack it.

Kara Swisher 50:17 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 50:18 And this is who we have, an anti-vaccine, anti-vaccine conspiracy theorist who couldn't hack her residency and is now, you know, is now, uh, jumped on this anti-vaccine train-

Kara Swisher 50:31 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 50:31 ... which will create tremendous, um, um, an increase in death, disease and disability. (sighs) Vaccinations, according to the World Health Organization, who of course people don't wanna listen to because they actually do science, has hands down been one of the best ways to prevent diseases. It's estimated that essential vaccines have saved at least 154 million lives. Uh, during the same period, vaccination has reduced infant deaths by, get this, 40%. Before any vaccine is introduced in a country, the vaccine developed in a laboratory undergoes rigorous and stringent testing through multiple phases of clinical trials. Health authorities carefully evaluate the results of these trials to help ensure that the vaccine meets the highest safety and efficacy standards before being c- considered suitable for use. RFK Jr.'s out there lying. These things are very safe, like any medicine. Uh, sure, there's a, there's, there's a, there's a risk in terms of side effects. They are so dwarfed by the benefits, it's almost, like, not even worth reporting.

Kara Swisher 51:28 Yeah. Right.

Scott Galloway 51:29 And they're usually, uh, very minor and of short duration such as a sore arm or mild fever, and more serious side effects are possible, but extremely-

Kara Swisher 51:39 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 51:39 ... extremely rare.

Kara Swisher 51:39 It's amazing how they benefit from conspiracy theories. I don't know how they live with themselves in that regard, but they do.

Scott Galloway 51:46 And just a, uh, cherry on the top of fails, if this tax bill passes, it'll be the largest transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich in a single law in US history. We have decided to borrow $5 trillion from our kids, use it so we can go to Cabo and pay for our new Lexus, and then when we die, they have to pay it back. This is i-

Kara Swisher 52:06 Yep.

Scott Galloway 52:07 This is just stupid and immoral. This tax bill, the largest... Uh, uh, according to several studies, it will be the largest transfer of wealth from poor to rich, which is Latin from young to old, 'cause everyone calls me an ageist. I'm like, "Okay, folks, who do you think the rich are?" What is the average age of shareholders-

Kara Swisher 52:24 Both.

Scott Galloway 52:24 ... who own more than $2 or $3 million in shares right now? They're usually in their 60s or 70s. But this will be the largest transfer of wealth. Uh, I uploaded my taxes into the LLMs, my W-1s and said, "Well, how will the Trump tax impact me?" And I uploaded it to three LLMs, and one of 'em, uh, the LLMs came back with the first two words were, "Good news."

Kara Swisher 52:46 Good news.

Scott Galloway 52:46 So the top 5% are getting a tax cut. The bottom 95 are getting a tax increase all at the expense of future generations.

Kara Swisher 52:55 Yep. 100%. Very good, Scott. Nice. Well done. I like those. Anyway, we wanna hear from you s-

Scott Galloway 53:01 Well, I'm trying to scale my business.

Kara Swisher 53:03 You're trying to scale my business.

Scott Galloway 53:04 I'm trying to scale my business.

Kara Swisher 53:04 Scale up to further heights. Maybe if you got on that climbing wall every now and then.

Scott Galloway 53:08 I thought there was gonna be a picture of you in my bathtub using my salts, uh, like-

Kara Swisher 53:11 Oh, that could be interesting. But what if I didn't-

Scott Galloway 53:13 ... like putting on my deodorant, trying to-

Kara Swisher 53:15 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 53:15 ... like what's next?

Kara Swisher 53:15 I have to say, your, your, your concierge-

Scott Galloway 53:17 Hitting my kids. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 53:18 ... likes me better, I think. I think they like me-

Scott Galloway 53:21 Who? Is this?

Kara Swisher 53:21 ... better. Yeah. 'Cause we bring liveliness to it. We fun, we're a fun family.

Scott Galloway 53:24 Who likes you better?

Kara Swisher 53:25 The, your concierges. They like me better, I feel like.

Scott Galloway 53:28 The door people, the doormen?

Kara Swisher 53:29 Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 53:30 Ah.

Kara Swisher 53:30 I'm teasing.

Scott Galloway 53:31 I give money.

Kara Swisher 53:31 They like you.

Scott Galloway 53:32 They like me more.

Kara Swisher 53:33 They like you.

Scott Galloway 53:33 I give money.

Kara Swisher 53:33 They like you. Anyway, we wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about your business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nyamag.com/pivot, submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe this week on, On With Kara Swisher, I talked to Barry Diller about his new memoir. Let's listen to a clip.

Barry Diller 53:52 People who haven't read this book-

Kara Swisher 53:54 Right.

Barry Diller 53:54 ... there are people who are, who read the excerpt of it-

Kara Swisher 53:56 Mm-hmm.

Barry Diller 53:56 ... but nobody's read the damn thing.

Kara Swisher 53:59 (laughs)

Barry Diller 53:59 And the amazing thing is the only thing that has been written is my relationship with a woman-

Kara Swisher 54:06 Right.

Barry Diller 54:07 ... from which somehow they extract he's come out of the closet.

Kara Swisher 54:11 Right.

Barry Diller 54:12 And to me, I think if I've come out of the closet, it is the most brightly lit room-

Kara Swisher 54:16 (laughs)

Barry Diller 54:17 ... with a glass door.

Kara Swisher 54:18 Yeah.

Barry Diller 54:18 I mean, who, who, who... It's absurd.

Kara Swisher 54:22 (laughs) He's great.

Scott Galloway 54:23 Did you enjoy your interview? I know you're a big fan.

Kara Swisher 54:25 I love him. He's very funny. He's one of the most, um, forthright of the moguls, and he is who he is. Like, every, people have a lot of complaints about Barry Diller, but I gotta tell you, he's absolutely, like, I am the mo- least interested in the gay part. Like, I, I knew it, everyone knew it kind of thing. But I thought this book is fantastic. It's a, it's a really gripping story about, uh, about his family which was very, there's a lot of incredible dysfunction there. But also his ideas around business and creating media, and I think he's been one of the, one of the entrepre- one of the more entrepreneurial members of that class, of the old mogul class. And so I enjoyed it. He's just a gas. He's really a gas. Um, anyway, uh, that's the show. Uh, thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Scott, read us out.

Scott Galloway 55:11 Today's show was produced by Lara Nehm and Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin and Kevin Oliver. Ernie Ierchard engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Miss Vera, and Dan Chalon. Nishat Kurwaz, Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. You know we'll be back. Why? 'Cause someone's scaling her empire.

Kara Swisher 55:39 (laughs) Scott, can I just say something very briefly?

Scott Galloway 55:43 Sure.

Kara Swisher 55:43 I'm so glad to be doing more years with you. I love our show. I love our team, and I mostly love you, Scott Gill.

Scott Galloway 55:49 I appreciate you saying that. I reciprocate all of tho- those good emotions, Kara. Thank you.