Anthony Scaramucci Blasts Trump’s Current Chaos | Pivot

Anthony Scaramucci 0:00 Let me give a newsflash to every Pivot listener, okay?

Kara Swisher 0:02 Right. Okay. Newsflash.

Anthony Scaramucci 0:03 Anybody close to Trump hates his guts.

Kara Swisher 0:08 (instrumental music) Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher, and guess what kicks off today?

Narrator 0:19 (instrumental music) Scot-Free August. (air horn)

Kara Swisher 0:27 (laughs) That's right, it's the first week of Scot-Free August, when the dog's away and the jungle cat gets to experiment with a bunch of different co-hosts. And today, I'm with the one and only Anthony Scaramucci, Mooch, uh, The Mooch, a lawyer, podcaster, founder, and managing partner at SkyBridge Capital. And you remember, uh, that he did a quick 11-day stint in the White House during President Trump's first term, but that's in the past actually. I, I, I don't think about that as much. Anthony, welcome.

Anthony Scaramucci 0:54 All right. Well, I'm very, I'm very flattered. I app- appreciate that. You, you're never invited into my apartment or my kitchen, Kara.

Kara Swisher 1:01 (laughs)

Anthony Scaramucci 1:01 You'll have to stay in the living room when you come over.

Kara Swisher 1:04 No.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:04 I just wanna make sure you know that.

Kara Swisher 1:06 No, no. No, I'm gonna look through all your things in your medicine-

Anthony Scaramucci 1:08 By the way, that was incredible. That was A+ trolling, Kara Swisher.

Kara Swisher 1:11 He, he was-

Anthony Scaramucci 1:11 A+ trolling.

Kara Swisher 1:12 I was in s- he's referring to a video of me in Scott's apartment looking through his things, which I do constantly.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:17 Yeah. Love, loved it.

Kara Swisher 1:17 And if I came to your apartment, I'd be right up in your medicine chest.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:21 Yes.

Kara Swisher 1:21 Just so you know.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:21 And you would, you would learn that I have a lot of skin products.

Kara Swisher 1:24 Uh-huh.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:25 Okay? Lots of moisturizer.

Kara Swisher 1:25 Do you have, like, shrimp semen? What do you have? What is in those?

Anthony Scaramucci 1:28 No, I'm not... No, I haven't gone into that yet. I, I probably should talk to some of the, uh, actresses about that. But no, I just, I do just general stuff, retinol, Retin-A, things like that.

Kara Swisher 1:37 All right, well-

Anthony Scaramucci 1:38 Renova.

Kara Swisher 1:38 ... what would be the craziest thing I would find in your closet?

Anthony Scaramucci 1:42 Uh, man, there's too many cra- I mean, the craziest thing that you would find in my c- closet is the-

Kara Swisher 1:48 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:48 ... original hood from Batman-

Kara Swisher 1:51 Oh?

Anthony Scaramucci 1:51 ... in 1966, uh, television series.

Kara Swisher 1:55 With Adam West?

Anthony Scaramucci 1:56 With Adam West, yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:57 Why?

Anthony Scaramucci 1:57 I pur- persh- You know, I'm a, I'm a superhero kid. You know, I grew up with, uh, comics and superheroes-

Kara Swisher 2:03 (laughs)

Anthony Scaramucci 2:03 ... and, um, was four or five years old when he was on TV and-

Kara Swisher 2:06 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 2:07 ... I thought he was hip and cool.

Kara Swisher 2:08 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 2:09 Um, I used to own the Batmobile.

Kara Swisher 2:11 What?

Anthony Scaramucci 2:11 Uh, I had a, I, I, I owned the, uh, Batman Returns Batmobile, the one where, uh, Danny DeVito played The Penguin and Michael Keaton-

Kara Swisher 2:19 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 2:19 ... uh, uh, was in the movie with, uh, uh, Michelle Pfeiffer.

Kara Swisher 2:23 What?

Anthony Scaramucci 2:23 She was the cat, yeah.

Kara Swisher 2:23 Why don't I know this? What, what do you mean you owned it? Where did you put it? Like, in a-

Anthony Scaramucci 2:26 Uh, yeah, yeah, storage. Well, that was the big issue. So I had it, uh, for many years.

Kara Swisher 2:30 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 2:30 It cost a lot of money to store it.

Kara Swisher 2:32 What did it cost?

Anthony Scaramucci 2:32 Lots of insurance.

Kara Swisher 2:32 What did it cost to buy? What did it cost to buy?

Anthony Scaramucci 2:35 So that car's probably worth about $3 million now. I bought the car for 150 and I sold it-

Kara Swisher 2:42 150,000?

Anthony Scaramucci 2:42 Yeah, 150,000.

Kara Swisher 2:43 Okay.

Anthony Scaramucci 2:43 This is 20 years ago. I sold it for 300. Uh, but if I kept it, it was a little... it would've been a great investment. But you know what? I didn't keep it and, uh-

Kara Swisher 2:51 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 2:51 ... life goes on. But I, I have co-

Kara Swisher 2:52 Did you drive it?

Anthony Scaramucci 2:54 Uh, uh, yes, I did. Yeah. It's on, it's on an F-150 frame.

Kara Swisher 2:58 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 2:58 It does not drive well, frankly.

Kara Swisher 3:01 Okay.

Anthony Scaramucci 3:01 There's a little propane tank in the back.

Kara Swisher 3:04 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 3:04 Uh, it's not registered. You can't insure it. It's a show car.

Kara Swisher 3:08 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 3:08 But there is a, there is a button that you can click and it shoots the propane flame out of the back, Kara.

Kara Swisher 3:13 That sounds dangerous. That sounds very dangerous.

Anthony Scaramucci 3:14 Yeah, yeah. But, you know, if you're an overgrown 12-year-old, it's one of the funnest things you can own.

Kara Swisher 3:19 Can I ask you a personal question? Do you put on that outfit? (laughs) The Adam West out-

Anthony Scaramucci 3:22 Did I put on the outfit?

Kara Swisher 3:23 Did you get it dry cleaned? Yeah. (laughs)

Anthony Scaramucci 3:24 I'm gonna bring my wife on the podcast.

Kara Swisher 3:26 (laughs)

Anthony Scaramucci 3:26 She'll let you know I, I chase her around in the bedroom with the hood and the cape.

Kara Swisher 3:29 (laughs) I love the Adam West.

Anthony Scaramucci 3:30 I actually don't do that, but I wish, I wish I did that, but I don't do that.

Kara Swisher 3:33 Yeah. You know what? I love Adam West. I like when he used to dance. You didn't buy the Robin outfit? You didn't do that?

Anthony Scaramucci 3:38 I didn't buy the Robin outfit, no. I'm not... Burt Ward was obviously a very colorful, fun guy, but I, I, uh-

Kara Swisher 3:44 Just a Batman?

Anthony Scaramucci 3:44 ... identified more with the aloof Batman.

Kara Swisher 3:47 All right. When I come over, you're putting that thing on-

Anthony Scaramucci 3:49 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 3:49 ... and we're having some fun. We're having some fun.

Anthony Scaramucci 3:51 I'm not.

Kara Swisher 3:51 I don't know what we're gonna do.

Anthony Scaramucci 3:52 Definitely hiding that from you.

Kara Swisher 3:53 No way. That is so... Now that I know. Anyway, uh, I'm so thrilled you're here. There's so much to talk to you about. But we've got tons to get to, including MAGA's war chest, which is huge, uh, nuclear submarines, and the latest on the Epstein saga. I'm, I'm excited to hear what you have to say. But

Kara Swisher 4:08 first, Democratic members of the Texas House of Representatives have fled the state in an attempt to stop Republicans from adopting a redraw on congressional map. Republican State Legislature has been pushing for a map that flips five Democratic congressional districts in favor of Republicans. Governor Greg Abbott called the Democratic, uh, the departure of the Democrats an abandonment of for- or forfeiture of an elected state office, saying he would take steps to remove the missing Democrats if they don't return. Uh, and then, of course, uh, a lot of, uh, gov- uh, Democratic governors are, including Gavin Newsom, are threatening to do the same in their states. Thoughts on this strategy?

Anthony Scaramucci 4:42 They're a terrible, terr- terrible strategy. They should get together and declare a detente, statewide detente. Uh, uh, people like you and me, it's very important for us, uh, to explain to the American people what they're doing, okay?

Kara Swisher 4:57 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 4:57 Gerrymandering, everybody, is when the politician picks the voter. In a liberal democracy, the voter is supposed to pick the politician. And so these guys have totally corrupted the system. Uh, the Republicans did this, uh, better than the Democrats early on.

Kara Swisher 5:12 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 5:12 There was something called Operation Red Map, Kara, you probably remember that.

Kara Swisher 5:16 Mm-hmm. Yup.

Anthony Scaramucci 5:16 They went into the state local legislators. The Koch family was big, big donors to this.

Kara Swisher 5:21 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 5:21 And they influenced the local elections to get the local elections to redistrict the congressional districts. Trump is looking at the map and he's thinking to himself, "I'm gonna lose the House. Uh, I'm not a popular president." He's below 40%. Uh, "I'm gonna lose the House." He calls up Governor Abbott and says, "I need five Republican congressional seats." Uh, and this will cause an escalation of complete nonsense. You and I both know that the American leaders were once public servants.We're now in the age of public self-servants. They're serving themselves and they're, and they're doing terrible things to the American people, and this is an example of that.

Kara Swisher 6:00 So what happens here? What is the game? If, if, if they do this and they get these Democratic legislators back, they can't take them out of office. Or maybe they can in Texas. They probably can.

Anthony Scaramucci 6:10 No, but they'll re- they'll, they'll, they'll get them back to force the vote and cause the redistricting, which is legal and is allowable, to cause the redistricting of the, of the districts, which will allow more Republicans on a percentage basis into those districts, and then the Democrats will probably lose those House seats. And so, Newsom is saying, "Okay, I can do that. There's some Republican districts here in California. Let me get the chainsaw out and let me redistrict." And so, uh, I mean, this is something people should know. That is what's been going on for about 150 years. Uh, very, very bad. We, we, we, we would need a constitutional amendment, frankly, to end gerrymandering. Maybe AI could pick the districts, make the districts flat, make the districts even. It would cut the extremists in the society, but it would also end the in- redundancy of incumbency.

Kara Swisher 7:04 Right. So if-

Anthony Scaramucci 7:04 Okay? And so that's what going on.

Kara Swisher 7:05 ... if, if Abbott does this-

Anthony Scaramucci 7:06 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 7:06 ... should Newsom do the same thing, just to even it up?

Anthony Scaramucci 7:08 Well, he will do it. No, no.

Kara Swisher 7:10 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 7:10 So if Ab- Abbott does it-

Kara Swisher 7:11 Or Illinois or New York.

Anthony Scaramucci 7:12 ... he will definitely do it, and then you'll have an escalation, and then you'll have a, you'll have an escalating war.

Kara Swisher 7:17 Legal lawsuits everywhere.

Anthony Scaramucci 7:17 You're asking me if he should. In a normative world, they should deescalate. They should cut the nonsense. They're not serving the American people. But, you know, there's something that someday we're all gonna have to write about. Uh, maybe you and I won't be here. I don't know. But 50 years from now, someone will write, "What the hell? How did this orange spray tanned maniac get ahold of one of these parties like this, where everybody is crippled with moral weakness, moral depravity, and just literally allowing him to do whatever the hell he wants?" Uh, and he d- and he laughs at these. By the way, I know the guy. So when they're kissing his ass, Kara-

Kara Swisher 7:59 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 7:59 ... he's laughing at them.

Kara Swisher 8:00 Right. Right.

Anthony Scaramucci 8:00 He's picking up the phone. He's calling his friend, Kara Swisher, saying, (laughs) "Can you believe"-

Kara Swisher 8:05 Yeah. Yeah, he's calling Kara Swisher.

Anthony Scaramucci 8:05 "... Governor Abbott is actually willing to do this for me?"

Kara Swisher 8:08 Yeah. Yeah. He loves it.

Anthony Scaramucci 8:08 You, you know he's doing that, right?

Kara Swisher 8:09 So speaking of which, he, he said he planned to appoint a new commissioner for the Bureau of Labor Statistics over the next three or four days. He fired the head of the agency last week following a jobs report that showed weak hiring in July, uh, major downward revisions to jobs created in May and June. These revisions happen

Kara Swisher 8:25 all the time, by the way. Trump called the jobs numbers phony and rigged, his favorite two words, uh, and offered no evidence except my opinion. His economic advisor, Kevin Hassett, who's quite a minion, defended the move in an interview with Kristen Welker on Meet the Press. Let's listen.

Anthony Scaramucci 8:40 Is the president prepared to fire anyone who reports data that he disagrees with?

Narrator 8:44 No, absolutely not. The president wants his own people there so that when we see the numbers, uh, they're more transparent and more reliable. And if there are big changes and big revisions, uh, we expect more big revisions for the jobs data in September, for example, that we wanna know why. We want people to explain it to us.

Kara Swisher 9:01 Yeah, they need to be explained to. We've seen this firing routine from Trump many times, as you well know. Um, but is he taking it to a whole new level here? Your thoughts on this 'cause this ... You, you, you and your Wall Street pals must be freaked out by this one.

Anthony Scaramucci 9:12 Yeah, well, I mean, you know, listen-

Kara Swisher 9:14 Or maybe not.

Anthony Scaramucci 9:14 ... I, I don't think, I don't think anybody on Wall Street's freaked out anymore. I mean, that was a freak out moment in 2018. In, in this moment now, you're gonna expect anything from Donald Trump. You may remember this. It's sort of obscure now, but Jack Welch, the very high profile CEO of GE, questioned the job reports numbers under the Obama administration once. And so, this is a political tactic. Uh, I find those statistics, like the CBO, to be very nonpartisan. The numbers are the numbers. Uh, I will say that they can be antiquated though, Kara. You know, like, you know the, the cliche statistics are lies. There are damn lies, and then there are statistics. We can make statistics look any way that we want. And so, I, I don't think it's the right thing to do to, to do that. He would be better advised to say, "Okay, how are we getting this data now? And can this data be sourced better and sourced in real time, given all the great technology we have in the country, to make the data a little bit less laggy and a little bit more accurate, uh, in real time?" And so, he's not gonna do that. Uh, but here's the irony, and I push this back to you for a second.

Kara Swisher 10:25 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 10:26 Uh, this data supports a rate cut.

Kara Swisher 10:28 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 10:29 And so, he's railing on Jerome Powell. I, what I don't understand is why didn't he take the data and say, "This is purely veracious data. It's absolutely accurate, and this more emphasizes that the Federal Reserve chair, uh, and the board there is on the wrong side of where rates are." And so-

Kara Swisher 10:47 So, why didn't he?

Anthony Scaramucci 10:49 You know, it's, it's an interesting question because I think his knee-jerk reaction was, "Oh, shit. The economy's doing way worse than it did under Joe Biden."

Kara Swisher 10:58 Right.

Anthony Scaramucci 10:58 "And of course, I can't let my minions, 'cause these people will believe anything I say, can shoot people on Fifth Avenue, deny I'm on the Epstein list. I could do all these different things. And so, let me keep the narrative going that there's another conspiracy afoot and that they're lying about the statistics because it's an, uh, Obama/Biden legacy appointee and their group in there doing the statistics." But he would have been better served to actually say, "Hey, this is accurate. Where is Jerome Powell? Why is he not cutting rates?" 'Cause Trump-

Kara Swisher 11:28 Right.

Anthony Scaramucci 11:28 ... clearly wants a rate cut for various different reasons. So-

Kara Swisher 11:31 Right.

Anthony Scaramucci 11:31 So that, that, that's the irony there. I'm surprised he didn't go in that direction.

Kara Swisher 11:34 Who could he appoint here that would satis- Will Wall Street freak out about this or not at all?

Anthony Scaramucci 11:39 I don't, I don't think so. I think, I think Wall Street has said to themselves ... And this is the weird thing about Wall Street. Wall Street says that if this guy's gone in three and a half years ... Uh, but I submit back to Wall Street, do you know anybody that builds a $200 million ballroom onto their house and then moves out in three and a half years? I'm just pointing that out to people. The guy's making expansive renovations to the White House. Doesn't smell like a guy that wants to leave anytime soon. So I think we're gonna be up for a potential fight there. But I think Wall Street looks at this and says, "Okay, this guy's leaving in three and a half years. There'll be a clean-up on aisle seven. He's breaking all the pickle jars at the local supermarket. There'll be a clean-up. There'll either be a Democrat that comes in or a non-personality cult member," 'cause I do believe this is a personality cult, and it will die off with Trump. Someone else will come in and be a little bit more normal, won't be able to get, get away with the nonsense-

Kara Swisher 12:34 Get away with it. Yeah, that's more the point.

Anthony Scaramucci 12:35 ... that Trump is getting away with. And so, Wall Street's like, "Okay, we can live with this for three and a half years. Tariffs are ridiculous." Guys like Jamie Dimon are saying, "So far, so good," but you know they're mumbling in the back room saying, "What a disaster." Uh, uh, you know, Jason Furman actually had a great piece in the New York Times over the weekend describing that the tariffs are not gonna put a- cause a great-... recession or a potential depression, but they are slowing down the economy and they are slowing down capital allocation decisions in the economy, and it's frankly starting to show up in the data. So, uh, you know, this is the... Again, the MAGA narrative is, "Ho- ho-ho, still got a strong economy despite our tariffs," but the real narrative should be, "No, the tariffs haven't fully kicked in yet."

Kara Swisher 13:20 Right. So speaking of that, he's continuing his mission to up- upend global trade. He launched a new round of tariffs, targeting over 60 US trading partners and set- take effect August 7th. They keep moving thes- these dates. These tariffs range from about 10% to 40%. Canada

Kara Swisher 13:34 is at 35%, India is at 25%, which Trump says he's going to increase because India is buying oil from Russia. And somewhat inexplicably, Switzerland is at 39%. He's already signaling more tariffs to come, including pharmaceuticals, semiconductors, and critical minerals. The markets initially fell on the tariff news as well as in the jobs report. They seem to have rebounded as Monday morning. Um, w- as you say, they're just, they're just sort of a wait and see kind of thing or, or are they... Is Wall Street actually concerned, even if e- they're trashing behind the scenes?

Anthony Scaramucci 14:05 Well, I- I- I think Wall Street thinks that all of this stuff ends up at about 10%, possibly 15. Uh, terrible but tolerable. I think that's how Wall Street looks at it. I don't think that 39% number that you're referencing in Switzerland is going to stick. I think that's a remnant number from April 2nd. You remember when he came down?

Kara Swisher 14:25 Yeah. That crazy

Narrator 14:26 chart (laughs)

Anthony Scaramucci 14:26 You know, he's like orange Moses coming down from Mount Evil with the tablet, you know? He's like walking in, you know, no one knows what the hell he's talking about. I think that's one of those things-

Kara Swisher 14:34 (laughs)

Anthony Scaramucci 14:35 ... that's like left over.

Kara Swisher 14:36 Uh-huh.

Anthony Scaramucci 14:36 Uh, the 39%. And I think that's gonna get reversed. I know the, uh, the Swiss government is frantic about getting that reversed. They're working on it right now, and I think that will. I think these things settle out-

Kara Swisher 14:47 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 14:47 ... 10 to 15.

Kara Swisher 14:49 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 14:49 Uh, the person that's handled Trump better than anybody in my opinion-

Kara Swisher 14:53 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 14:53 ... is Mark Carney. Uh, Mark Carney has held the ground there. Uh, there's no way that the American economy can have a 35%, uh, reciprocal tariff with Canada. It's not, not, not sustainable. You'll, you'll knock, you'll knock everybody out of business, you know. The... You have lobstermen that are buying... They're, they're catching lobster in US waters but they're sending it across the border to have it processed in Canadian processing plants and then sent back. So you'll, you'll knock the price up 70% in terms of the way the tariffs work. You'll put everybody out of business. You'll hurt the restaurant industry, uh, y-

Kara Swisher 15:28 Which most businesses have been absorbing until now, right?

Anthony Scaramucci 15:32 Yeah. I mean, look at, look at the-

Kara Swisher 15:32 That's... They've been sort of-

Anthony Scaramucci 15:32 ... look at the GM print. GM lost-

Kara Swisher 15:34 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 15:34 ... a billion dollars by absorbing the cost. But you know who isn't absorbing it, Kara?

Kara Swisher 15:39 Mm-mm.

Anthony Scaramucci 15:39 Is, uh, Las Vegas.

Kara Swisher 15:41 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 15:41 Las Vegas is not absorbing it 'cause they've lost the Canadian tourists.

Kara Swisher 15:45 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 15:45 They've lost the UK tourists.

Kara Swisher 15:48 Workers.

Anthony Scaramucci 15:48 Uh, they've lost the guys coming in from Australia that used to gamble and go crazy in Las Vegas. Uh, you have no tax on tips but you have a 50% reduction in revenue for the people that are receiving the tips. So, so Trump's nonsense, his rhetoric has really hurt tourism. I mean, there's an estimate of about 80 to-

Kara Swisher 16:07 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 16:07 ... $90 billion-

Kara Swisher 16:07 Good point.

Anthony Scaramucci 16:08 ... of tourist revenues that have been lost in the US. And so, and so rhetoric matters when you're the president. These tariffs, though. Wall Street again saying, "10 to 15%. Somebody smart will come in and revise these things." Now-

Kara Swisher 16:23 Who, who's smart? Who in that administration? I know you probably are not a Luttnick fan would be my guess.

Anthony Scaramucci 16:29 Well, I mean, Howard Buttnick-

Kara Swisher 16:31 (laughs)

Anthony Scaramucci 16:31 ... Butlick, Nut- Nutlick?

Kara Swisher 16:33 (laughs)

Anthony Scaramucci 16:33 You're allowed to say Nutlick on the Ben & Buddy Show?

Kara Swisher 16:35 You're allowed. Whatever.

Anthony Scaramucci 16:36 All right. Coward, Coward Nutlick? Is that what you're talking about?

Kara Swisher 16:38 (laughs)

Anthony Scaramucci 16:39 Is that who we're talking about?

Kara Swisher 16:40 That's who I'm talking about.

Anthony Scaramucci 16:41 I mean, you know, the guy's unbelie-... I mean, and I, I know Howard a long time.

Kara Swisher 16:45 Yeah, I bet.

Anthony Scaramucci 16:46 But Howard, if you said to me there's a picture-

Kara Swisher 16:49 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 16:50 ... in the dictionary of Potomac fever-

Kara Swisher 16:53 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 16:53 ... okay? It would be Howard Luttnick. Okay?

Kara Swisher 16:55 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 16:55 Potomac fever, I'm in the mix, I'm driving around in the Secret Service vans with a-

Kara Swisher 17:01 "I'm an important guy."

Anthony Scaramucci 17:02 "I'm an important guy. The phone calls are coming in and-"

Kara Swisher 17:05 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 17:05 "... I'm gonna have this very smug, arrogant, jerk-off smile on television every time I'm talking. I'm gonna be pedantic, and I'm gonna be demeaning to the interviewers." Uh, I mean, I mean, come on, Howard. I don't know what you... You took the wrong pill. The side effects of Potomac fever are, are career ruining. Uh, and he's, he's heading in that direction. He should really calm down and get a grounding wire up his ass-

Kara Swisher 17:30 Oh (laughs) .

Anthony Scaramucci 17:31 ... to calm himself down a little bit.

Kara Swisher 17:32 Okay. (laughs) Who is-

Anthony Scaramucci 17:33 All right, go ahead.

Kara Swisher 17:33 (laughs) Who do you like there? Who do you think, Bessent?

Anthony Scaramucci 17:35 Yeah, I like... Oh, yeah. Kevin's a good guy.

Kara Swisher 17:37 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 17:37 Hassert's a very smart guy. He's a reasonable guy. He's steered the president away from some of the really bad things. Bessen- Bes- Bessent, or however you pronounce his name, I know Scott a long time. Uh, I think he is a person, if you talk to the Wall Street guys that really know him, he's blocked Trump on a few things. Uh, e- e- even to the point where I think he said, "You know, I can't do this, uh, and so you may have to find somebody else." Of course, Trump capitulates when you tell him that, particularly somebody like Bessent, w- where he needs him. Uh, remember, something about Treasury. Trump doesn't give a shit about Treasury. Uh, Trump wants the trains to run on time, he wants the bills for the American government to be paid, and he wants the taxes collected. The places he really cares about are Justice, that's a place he really cares about, Secretary of State, and Secretary of Defense. Okay? So it's very important to him that he has full-on sycophants in those roles.

Kara Swisher 18:34 Right.

Anthony Scaramucci 18:34 Uh, but Bessent, he's smart enough to know that he needs somebody that Wall Street is going to accept.

Kara Swisher 18:41 Go for it. Right.

Anthony Scaramucci 18:41 And of course, you know, uh, uh, it's been reported so it's worth talking about. Jamie Dimon is now in direct-

Kara Swisher 18:47 That's correct. I noticed that.

Anthony Scaramucci 18:47 ... conversations with the president.

Kara Swisher 18:50 Thoughts. Yep.

Anthony Scaramucci 18:50 And he's a very moderate guy-

Kara Swisher 18:52 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 18:52 ... and he's trying to guide the president towards doing things-

Kara Swisher 18:54 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 18:54 ... that are less stupid, frankly.

Kara Swisher 18:56 Mm-hmm. That's what he's there for. Yeah. That was an-

Anthony Scaramucci 18:58 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 18:58 ... interesting... I was like-

Anthony Scaramucci 19:00 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 19:00 ... "Oh, I see." He's-

Anthony Scaramucci 19:00 Uh, I like, I like Jamie. He's probably-

Kara Swisher 19:01 Yeah. He's probably-

Anthony Scaramucci 19:01 ... the smartest of all of us.

Kara Swisher 19:03 He's probably...... giving very good advice to him. And, and, and Trump probably looks up to him in a weird way or in some level, uh, has-

Anthony Scaramucci 19:11 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 19:11 ... not respect, but just is, probably thinks he's smarter than him and so will listen to him. So one of the things though that doesn't feel too smart, speaking of State Department, he's ordered two US nuclear subs to reposition near Russia just in case. That move was in response to a series of fiery social media posts from former Russian president, Medvedev.

Kara Swisher 19:30 Medvedev warned in one post that each new ultimatum Trump issues over the Ukraine is a threat and a step towards war. And the Kremlin has responded to Trump's moves, saying, "We believe everyone should be very careful about new leader rhetoric." I would agree with that. Trump is also threatening sanctions unless Russia ends the war by August 8th, which is ne- the end of this week. Uh, but Putin has dismissed pressure for a ceasefire. Talk about what he's doing here from your perspective.

Anthony Scaramucci 19:57 Well, I mean, it's saber-rattling. I don't think, I don't think it's, it's much ado about nothing. I think it's, uh, a good news story. It shows his base that he has some muscularity. The Iranian hits showed some muscularity. His base likes that.

Kara Swisher 20:12 Why he is threatening them when he's spent his almost both administrations sucking up to them is really interesting to me. Why now? Why here? Why-

Anthony Scaramucci 20:21 Well, he doesn't-

Kara Swisher 20:22 ... why now?

Anthony Scaramucci 20:22 ... have a choice. Well, well, okay, well, I can answer that.

Kara Swisher 20:23 Okay.

Anthony Scaramucci 20:24 So, so what's happening to Trump is that the, the lame duck clock is ticking. Uh, he's 18 months away from being a full-on lame duck. And there's a little bit of flex by some of the conservative Republicans that are for Democratic freedoms. And there's also some institutional memory in the Congress, particularly the Senate, related to the security guarantees that President Clinton signed in 1994 when the Ukraine government-

Kara Swisher 20:51 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 20:51 ... gave up their nukes in exchange for these security guarantees. So-

Kara Swisher 20:54 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 20:54 ... there are a group of institutionalists in McConnells, DeThuns, that have gone to Trump and said, "Hey, you- you're- you're not being tough enough. You've gotta, you've gotta help these guys more. We can't have a defeated Ukraine government at this point."

Kara Swisher 21:11 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 21:11 And so Trump is under the gun. He's afraid of Putin. I think we have to state that publicly. Uh, I always tell people, "If the window's open, Kara-"

Kara Swisher 21:19 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 21:19 ... "and you hear clippety-clop, it's, it's a horse."

Kara Swisher 21:22 (laughs)

Anthony Scaramucci 21:22 "It's not a zebra." You gotta look at the obvious. They've got something on him-

Kara Swisher 21:26 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 21:26 ... that scares the living shit out of him-

Kara Swisher 21:28 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 21:29 ... and he won't move against Putin. And you have to say to yourself, "Well, Putin's got a declining country." His, uh, GDP now is, uh, 14%-

Kara Swisher 21:36 Yep.

Anthony Scaramucci 21:36 ... smaller than Italy.

Kara Swisher 21:38 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 21:38 Uh, he's got a failed defense department or war department. Just look at what's going on there.

Kara Swisher 21:43 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 21:43 Uh, and so how could a very rich man, which Trump is, who runs the largest military and arguably one of the most powerful nations in the history of the world be kowtowing to Vladimir Putin? And the answer is, they got something on him-

Kara Swisher 21:57 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 21:58 ... and they got something on him that scares the living daylights out of him.

Kara Swisher 22:01 And yet he rattles the sabers here. Why? Just from show.

Anthony Scaramucci 22:04 Because he has to. Because I know Trump's personality so-

Kara Swisher 22:07 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 22:07 ... he's a great compartmentalist.

Kara Swisher 22:09 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 22:09 He's got pressure on him from these congressional leaders-

Kara Swisher 22:12 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 22:12 ... and so he has to do something, but he never does the thing.

Kara Swisher 22:16 Right.

Anthony Scaramucci 22:16 He'll say, "50 days." He'll say-

Kara Swisher 22:19 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 22:19 ... "10 days." He'll say, "22 days."

Kara Swisher 22:21 And then it'll slither away.

Anthony Scaramucci 22:22 But he never, never does it because he's so afraid of Putin. You know, he could, he could bitch slap Putin super hard. He could send those HIMARS. He could send more Patriot batteries. He could get permission to launch a few ICBMs into Russia from Ukraine territory. He could do all those things and it would probably collapse the Putin government, and it would probably cause a replacement of Vladimir Putin. Of course, we'd have to worry about that from an intelligence perspective. There could be-

Kara Swisher 22:53 Mm-hmm. Of course.

Anthony Scaramucci 22:53 ... harder right radicals.

Kara Swisher 22:55 Right.

Anthony Scaramucci 22:55 Maybe we don't want Putin necessarily rep- replaced as much as we want him contained. But there's a lot of things that Trump could do. He's not willing to do them because he's scared shit of Vladimir Putin.

Kara Swisher 23:06 Yeah. They're using words like that. Okay, Anthony, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Trump's super PAC rakes in the cash and we'll talk Epstein as well. (instrumental music plays) Support for this show comes from Framer. Kids today, they never understand what we went through back in the day. Building a website, for instance, used to be a lot of time and a lot of money, so you only did it if you could afford the overhead and really needed it. Nowadays, there are incredible tools like Framer that can build the website of your dreams fast, no coding required. Framer is a design-first, no-code website builder that lets anyone ship a product-ready site in minutes. That means you have the freedom to build a website that is professional, polished, and uniquely yours, no code and no compromises. Built-in AI will handle the heavy lifting by generating starter layouts and then coding behind the scenes. You'll be able to A/B test your design, set up funnels, see exactly where people click, all from one place. Ready to build a site that looks hand-coded without hiring a developer? Launch your site for free at framer.com and use the code PIVOT to get your first month of Pro on the house. That's framer.com, promo code PIVOT, framer.com, promo code PIVOT. Rules and restrictions apply. Anthony, we're back. MAGA Inc., uh, Donald Trump's main super PAC, is currently sitting on a war chest of nearly $200 million, according to a new FEC filing. Donors include Elon Musk, who gave $15 million to MAGA and the other GOP PACs just weeks after his spat with Trump, venture

Kara Swisher 24:32 capitalist Marc Andreessen, who's always, uh, creepily around the basket, and TikTok investor Jeffrey Yass. Contributions also came in from crypto executives and energy, which makes sense to me, an energy company, and a mother seeking a pardon for her son, who got one. A spokes- uh, spokeswoman for MAGA Inc. rejected claims that the donations were exchanged for access, saying Trump, quote, "Cannot be bought and the works, and works toward the best interest of the country." Uh, it feels pay-to-play to me. New York Times had a pretty devastating piece about that. Um, but does the money go towards helping Republicans in the midterms, or is Trump really considering that, uh, third term, which you referenced just a second ago?

Anthony Scaramucci 25:12 Well, I think you have to take Trump seriously about him wanting a third term. And I think you have to take Steve Bannon seriously about him running for a third term. Now up against that, he'll be 82 years old. It looks like he does have some vascular issues. I mean, they've reported that, so let's say that that's probably true. And they're... He's got an unsteady gait, and he is, he's getting older. Uh, but I, I don't think a guy like him leaves power easily. I just don't think that. And so I hope that, and I hope that, uh, my buddies who are institutionalists in Washington, uh, say that that's the last stand for them, uh, that they will fight that tooth and nail. Those are Republicans saying that, who I'm still a donor to several of these Republican senators. But I don't, I don't know. I... You have to take him literally and seriously when he's thinking about these things. Uh, I don't think that money goes to lots of people in the midterms. Trump is for Trump. He's not for other people. He doesn't give a shit. And so I think this is something very smart that he's done though, and I think people should understand this. He's not a traditional politician. A traditional politician, an Obama, a George W. Bush stops raising money in their second term-

Kara Swisher 26:25 Right.

Anthony Scaramucci 26:26 ... for their own PACs.

Kara Swisher 26:27 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 26:27 He didn't do that, and I think he's now setting a precedent for future politicians to not do that because that will give him... Let's say he was a normal politician, he'd go, "Oh, I got leverage now in the system long after I'm lame ducked, and I can s- pick and choose who I'm gonna give this money to in different Congressional races." I don't think Trump's gonna do that. Trump will figure out a way to use that money.

Kara Swisher 26:49 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 26:49 And this is what Trump is doing with the corruption, you know. Uh, I think the f- the pardons are going up now. They're probably $100 million now for a pardon. I think you... They started at the three to $5 million level.

Kara Swisher 27:00 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 27:00 And, uh, Trump should just put out a, a retail price list, you know.

Kara Swisher 27:03 (laughs)

Anthony Scaramucci 27:03 Say, "Look, uh, here's, here's the list of all the shit that you can get from me," you know?

Kara Swisher 27:06 Right, right.

Anthony Scaramucci 27:06 "You wanna come have dinner with me, you're a crypto guy? Five million."

Kara Swisher 27:09 Uh-huh.

Anthony Scaramucci 27:10 "You want a pardon now? It's gotta be 100 million 'cause, um..."

Kara Swisher 27:12 You didn't go to that dinner, did you? Did you go to that dinner?

Anthony Scaramucci 27:14 Uh, no. I haven't, I haven't seen or been around Trump... You wanna know the last time I talked to Trump?

Kara Swisher 27:20 Wh- When?

Anthony Scaramucci 27:21 That was, uh, it was April. It was Easter Sunday, uh, April of 2019. He called me. I thought he was calling me to wish me a happy Easter, but he wasn't. He was calling me to lay into me 'cause I had written an article that said that... It was an open letter to the president. "The press is not the enemy of the people. Stop saying that. The press is there to protect the people, but it's also the fount of our financial innovation." You and I have talked about this. Being able to speak freely in a society, you teach second grade children that they can speak freely. They go on to become Kara Swisher or they create a Facebook or they create an iPhone. Uh, other countries that don't do that, they have to steal our technology. Uh, Trump got really pissed at me. Laid into me, and he, and he told me that I was a deep stater and some other shit that he said. And that was the last time we spoke.

Kara Swisher 28:11 Oh, wow.

Anthony Scaramucci 28:11 So no, I haven't been around Trump in s- i- since-

Kara Swisher 28:12 What did he say? Okay. (laughs)

Anthony Scaramucci 28:14 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 28:14 "Happy Easter." (laughs)

Anthony Scaramucci 28:15 Yeah, "Happy Easter."

Kara Swisher 28:15 What do you say when someone says that? Okay.

Anthony Scaramucci 28:17 I said, "I disagree, and I think you're being wr- I think you're wrong. I think history's gonna judge what I'm saying-"

Kara Swisher 28:22 Right.

Anthony Scaramucci 28:23 "... to be more right than you."

Kara Swisher 28:24 Right.

Anthony Scaramucci 28:25 And then he more or less abruptly hung up the phone.

Kara Swisher 28:27 Oh, wow.

Anthony Scaramucci 28:27 Uh, by... But I got in the "Happy Easter," by the way. He did-

Kara Swisher 28:30 Good.

Anthony Scaramucci 28:30 ... he did derisively say "Happy Easter" back to me.

Kara Swisher 28:32 Yeah, happy anniversary.

Anthony Scaramucci 28:33 Look, he's a miserable dude, you know. He's a miserable dude. Let me give a newsflash to every Pivot listener, okay?

Kara Swisher 28:38 Right. Okay, newsflash.

Anthony Scaramucci 28:39 Anybody close to Trump hates his guts, okay?

Kara Swisher 28:42 Okay.

Anthony Scaramucci 28:43 If you're in Trump's orbit, you're in the first electron orbit from the-

Kara Swisher 28:46 Uh-huh. Laura Loomer seems to like him.

Anthony Scaramucci 28:47 Who does?

Kara Swisher 28:48 Laura Loomer. Laura Loomer seems to like him.

Anthony Scaramucci 28:51 Yeah, you know, I think Laura's not in the f- I don't think she's in the first electron orbit. I'm talking about you gotta be in the first electron orbit. You're Melania Trump, you move out of the goddamn White House. You know, you gotta get... If you're Ivanka and Jared, you gotta stay away, 'cause he eviscerated Jared after the Abraham Accord thing. And so you gotta get out of his electron orbit. But if you're in the vortex of the orbit, General Kelly.

Kara Swisher 29:16 Orbit, yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 29:17 HR McMaster.

Kara Swisher 29:19 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 29:19 You pick the person. They hate the guy's guts-

Kara Swisher 29:21 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 29:22 ... uh, because they see how malevolent of a guy he is. They see how dishonest and how ruthless he is.

Kara Swisher 29:26 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 29:27 And, and that, that shit rubs off on you, Kara Swisher-

Kara Swisher 29:30 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 29:30 ... if you're sitting around it too long. You know, you start to stink like it.

Kara Swisher 29:33 To... It's toxic, sounds like it.

Anthony Scaramucci 29:34 Yeah, you start to stink like it.

Kara Swisher 29:35 So speaking of, speaking of toxic, let's do a quick rundown of the latest happenings with the Epstein saga, which I predicted would continue, and it is. Uh, Charlamagne Tha God suggested the Trump administration's handling of the Epstein information is causing a political coup among Republicans on Fox News. Trump reacted on

Kara Swisher 29:50 Truth Social saying, "The radio host knows nothing." Ghislaine Maxwell has been moved to a minimum security prison camp in Texas, against... Sexual offenders aren't allowed there, but she has been allowed. And Republicans are still split on which side to take as polling shows almost 80% of Trump voters in favor of releasing the files. I h- I have not talked to you about this. Um, thoughts on what's happening and how long it lasts? 'Cause e- everyone felt it was a distraction. I never did because it's at the core of QAnon. It's at the core of the deep state stuff. And he himself h- has fed these toxic creatures, uh, for far too long for them to just give up.

Anthony Scaramucci 30:28 Well, I, I think he's gonna survive this too.

Kara Swisher 30:31 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 30:31 I mean, maybe I'm on the other side of this trade than you. I think he survives this.

Kara Swisher 30:34 Oh, I think he survives it. I just think it's damaging.

Anthony Scaramucci 30:36 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 30:37 That's what-

Anthony Scaramucci 30:37 Well, I think, I think it's damaging. Maybe Charlamagne's right, it sets up a '26 divergence.

Kara Swisher 30:43 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 30:43 Meaning I th- there could be conservative Republicans that say, "I'm MAGA lite."

Kara Swisher 30:48 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 30:48 Or "I'm a little less MAGA." Mm-hmm. "I'm MAGA without pedophilia."

Kara Swisher 30:51 You see Marjorie Taylor Greene doing it constantly.

Anthony Scaramucci 30:53 Yeah. Yeah, maybe "I'm MAGA without pedophilia."

Kara Swisher 30:55 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 30:55 I don't... That could be a good bumper sticker.

Kara Swisher 30:56 (laughs)

Anthony Scaramucci 30:57 I don't... You know, "I'm, I'm, uh, you know, I- I- I'm, I'm 18 plus."

Kara Swisher 31:01 (laughs) Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 31:01 "I'm not 14 and below-"

Kara Swisher 31:02 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 31:03 "... these disgusting sons of bitches."

Kara Swisher 31:04 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 31:05 But, but Trump is... You know, he's... Where there's smoke, there's fire, okay?

Kara Swisher 31:10 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 31:10 You can't see him with Epstein. The letter-... has got Trump so crazed because the letter plus the doodling on the letter is implying something that Trump does not want out there in the marketplace, which is why he's put a $10 billion speed bump together against Rupert Murdoch and his, and the News Corp. But, you know, and R- Rupert doesn't give a shit. You know, Rupert hates Trump, like everybody else, and his attitude is, "I'm 94, have at it. Let me drop a few more bombs on you." We have the bombs. Okay? So now, again, you have to tell me if there's something unthinkably nefarious, and I'm not gonna say what it is, but you know what it is and your viewers and listeners know what it is, if that comes out and it's in- incontrovertible, it's not AI generated, it's not any of that, it's incontrovertible evidence of something unthinkably nefarious, is that enough to remove Trump? I think you think it is.

Narrator 32:05 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 32:06 I just think that he never get, you know, "Oh, the McCain thing is gonna ruin him." Doesn't ruin him. "Oh, we're gonna grab him by the you know what in the, in the bus with Billy Bush." No, that doesn't r- ... Nothing hurts Trump.

Narrator 32:18 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 32:18 It n- it could damage him.

Narrator 32:20 The insurrection.

Anthony Scaramucci 32:20 It c- it could, yeah.

Narrator 32:21 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 32:21 The insurrection, I mean, the k-... People are dying. He fomented the violence. They have him on tape doing it. They had his former chief of staff, uh, basically was gonna be their key witness. He wins the election. I think we should stipulate for the Pivot people, he's one of the luckiest son of a bitches on the planet. Every time he flips the coin, it comes up his way. So, you know, I don't, I don't think he gets knocked out by this, but I do think that this Ghislaine thing is interesting. See, so the Ghislaine thing is like, "Okay, let me send my lawyer who I trust. Hey, k- let me knock on the w- h- Ghislaine, are you there? Hello? Are you there? Okay, listen. I know you know a lot of bad stuff. Keep your mouth shut. We're gonna move you to a minimum security prison, we're gonna make it easier for you. You listening? And then, in about six months, when this blows over, we're gonna commute your sentence or we're gonna give you work relief or we're gonna do something for you, but you gotta keep your mouth shut." It's a g- it's a great mob move. They're doing it right out in the open, like the way-

Narrator 33:27 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 33:27 ... the KGB would do it.

Narrator 33:29 So it's keep your mouth shut, 'cause-

Anthony Scaramucci 33:30 Yeah.

Narrator 33:30 ... if she starts to just tell on Democrats, that's a problem too. Correct? 'Cause-

Anthony Scaramucci 33:34 No, no, no. You gotta keep your mouth shut.

Narrator 33:36 Mouth shut.

Anthony Scaramucci 33:36 You k- you c-

Narrator 33:36 Omertà.

Anthony Scaramucci 33:36 You gotta keep your mouth shut because, because the Dem-

Narrator 33:38 Omertà, as us Italians, you and me, know.

Anthony Scaramucci 33:40 Yes. That's omertà. You gotta keep your mouth shut. That's like a full-on Sicilian move, the code of silence.

Narrator 33:46 (laughs)

Anthony Scaramucci 33:46 And, uh, and by the way, with omertà, you keep your mouth shut, we're gonna ta- ... Remember when a mobster went to jail, "Keep your mouth shut, we're gonna take care of your family, and they're gonna get Vig from our operations to take care of your sons and daughters and your wife. And when you come out of jail, we're gonna get you a job." Now, you can end up like Sylvester Stallone in Oklahoma, but you're gonna get a job. Right? And so, so that's what it is and that's what Trump and Todd Blanche are trying to do. I think that's pretty obvious and but this is the thing that makes me laugh. You know John Thune?

Narrator 34:14 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 34:14 You're, y- an American jellyfish?

Narrator 34:16 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 34:16 I mean, you should write a, uh ... You write such great books like Burn, Burn Book-

Narrator 34:19 (laughs)

Anthony Scaramucci 34:19 ... and shit like that. You should write The American Jellyfish-

Narrator 34:22 (laughs)

Anthony Scaramucci 34:22 ... you know, starring, uh, John Thune and Mitch McConnell-

Narrator 34:25 So tell me why. (laughs) Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 34:25 ... starring, you know, uh, The American Jellyfishes.

Narrator 34:28 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 34:28 What are you guys doing? You, you really this big of cowards?

Narrator 34:31 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 34:32 You got a guy that's morally depraved.

Narrator 34:34 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 34:34 He's bringing down your party. He's a millstone on the morality of the American people. We always like ... When you and I were growing up-

Narrator 34:43 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 34:43 ... we like to think of America and our patriotism as benevolent and generous and good natured America that was gonna help other nations. And now we have this morally depraved lunatic in the White House that's stealing our thunder and is reducing our soft power all over the world-

Narrator 35:03 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 35:03 ... okay, which is never a good thing for a superpower, by the way. You can go throughout 5,000 years of history and know that's never a good thing. Uh, and yet he's doing that. We're allowing him to do that 'cause we got a bunch of bozos that are supposed to check him, the American jellyfishes. Uh, "What are you guys doing?" And the answer is, "I don't know. We're gonna wait Trump out. Wait him out. We're so afraid of him and we're afraid of his MAGA base."

Narrator 35:27 Yeah. So why? When, when do they turn? There, is there a s- sc- sign, a moment be signed?

Anthony Scaramucci 35:31 Well, yeah. The mid-term. That's, that's why Trump has got all that money in the war chest. You know, he, he knows they're coming for him in the mid-terms. Uh, y- you know, you remember that scene in The Wizard of Oz where the witch gets accidentally hit by the water bucket and she starts melting?

Narrator 35:48 (laughs)

Anthony Scaramucci 35:48 It's actually like an orange witch though. It's not really like the green witch-

Narrator 35:51 (laughs)

Anthony Scaramucci 35:51 ... but it's like an orange wicked witch of The West Wing. The water is about to hit Trump.

Narrator 35:55 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 35:55 Okay? And that's like a November 2026-

Narrator 35:58 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 35:59 ... uh, water hit, and as he starts to melt, these guys go, "Oh, you know, we, we didn't mean this." Or, "Oh, we didn't realize this." Or, "Oh, we're sorry about that."

Narrator 36:06 Mm-hmm. If he melts. If in fact water hits.

Anthony Scaramucci 36:08 If he melts.

Narrator 36:08 If one-

Anthony Scaramucci 36:08 Like, like let me, let me say this to you and I want you to really think about this. Okay?

Narrator 36:12 All right. Okay.

Anthony Scaramucci 36:13 They're running around saying they're gonna arrest Clinton.

Narrator 36:16 Right. Hillary.

Anthony Scaramucci 36:16 That's Hillary Clinton. They're gonna arrest-

Narrator 36:18 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 36:18 ... Barack Obama. Okay? It's all contraindicated from an intelligence report that the head of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Marco Rubio, signed off on, which was irrefutable that everything that they're saying is not true. Why are they doing that? They're doing that to distract you. They're doing that to rev up the MAGA base. They're loo- they're doing that to say, "Don't look at the man behind the curtain that's flapping behind the curtain. Focus on this which is important to you. Obama is bad." There's underlying racism to that, by the way. I think you know that, but-

Narrator 36:54 O- obviously, I just don't think it works.

Anthony Scaramucci 36:56 Right.

Narrator 36:56 I don't think it works. I think the Epstein stuff is much stronger.

Anthony Scaramucci 36:59 Well, no, no, no, no. It hasn't, hasn't worked yet. He's, he's, he's tried with the Washington Redskin Commanders-

Narrator 37:04 Mm-hmm. That lasted for five seconds.

Anthony Scaramucci 37:05 ... and the Cleveland Guardian Indians.

Narrator 37:07 Yeah. Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 37:07 He's now going at it with the, the young woman who was in the Jean commercial.

Narrator 37:12 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 37:12 I think her name is Sydney Sweeny.

Narrator 37:13 Yes. Sydney Sweeny. Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 37:14 And yeah, so he's definitely trying stuff. You know, he's the ... Remember, he's the Napoleon of the culture war. Like the-

Narrator 37:20 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 37:21 The best thing that Trump has going for him-

Narrator 37:23 Culture.

Anthony Scaramucci 37:23 ... are the Democrats.

Narrator 37:24 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 37:24 Because he knows how to drop a bomb on the battlefield and they run towards it, and then he's doing something over here. You know, he's-... master of deflection.

Kara Swisher 37:32 All right, we're gonna get to that now a- next actually. Um, we're gonna go on a quick break. When we come back, we're gonna talk about the Corporation for Public Broadcasting as it winds down operations because there are very real repercussions to everything he's doing with these distractions. Anthony, we're back with more news. The Corporation for Public Broadcasting says it will begin winding down operations the following an over one billion dollar cut in federal funding. The move, it's not a very big. It's about a 100 people. The move will s- they, th- what they do is they distribute funds out to local stations, a lot of them rural, by the way.

Kara Swisher 38:02 The move will severely impact local operations of PBS and NPR. Both NPR and PBS say they're committed to maintaining service after the closure. The CPB told employees most positions will be eliminated on September 30th. Um, th- this is a loss of, uh, local news in rural communities. Uh, this is a closing not of the big NPR stations, or not of, uh, PBS stations, but the small ones, um, which provide all kinds of news and other things like that in places that don't have them. Um, and I'm gonna link it with, uh, w- institutions worried about losing funding. The Smithsonian will restore information about President Trump's impeachments after removing a placard on the topic in July. This was reported by him Washington Post. The museum says the placard was removed after a review of legacy content, which was demanded by the Trump Administration and was meant to be a temporary addition

Kara Swisher 38:48 to a 25-year exp- exhibition. The exhibition in question notes that only three, uh, presidents have seriously faced removal, Andrew Johnson, uh, Richard Nixon, and Bill Clinton. That's not true. A person familiar with the plans told him Washington Post the content review took place following this pressure from the White House to remove an art museum director. Um, so museums altering history, uh, closing down, uh, long institutions, which is something Republicans have wanted for a while, but it will actually affect, uh, the small, the small, uh, local news in rural communities more than anybody else. Um, th- this is more than a distraction 'cause it actually, things happen, things actually happen.

Anthony Scaramucci 39:26 I mean, I mean, this is, this is Trump. He's the, you know, look, there, there were certain rules in Washington. Uh, the sacred cow of the left was the public broadcasters. Uh, Ronald Reagan railed on it, but he never did anything. Remember, Ronald Reagan railed on Roe v. Wade, but never did anything. And Trump ex- has come into town and he's basically now saying, "Hey, those sacred rules where we rail on... You're on the left and you rail on something on the right and we... and you don't do anything and vice versa, we're ending that." And again, I just think it makes for a coarser society. Uh, if you're asking me practically will the society survive the end of that? It will. Uh, does it suck for those rural areas? It does. But it will survive it. Okay? And could something else creep up or could there be a publicly funded or non-publicly funded, a charitably funded replacement? It's all very possible. Uh, but I think it, it, it to me it's more about the rules, Kara. It's more about okay, we're gonna smash people. We don't want any civility to our government. We don't want anybody having lunch in the cloak room or the cafeteria. They can barely wor- apparently they can barely work out with each other in the gym now. They're in separate areas of the gym. And i- it's just bad for America. That's uh, that's, that, that's not how we got here.

Kara Swisher 40:54 Right.

Anthony Scaramucci 40:54 The idea was-

Kara Swisher 40:55 Right.

Anthony Scaramucci 40:55 ... that we were gonna have some consensus, we're gonna have some compromise, and we're gonna have some civility with each other. And Trump doesn't like that because remember, uh, there's nobody that Trump hates more than himself.

Kara Swisher 41:09 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 41:09 Nobody.

Kara Swisher 41:10 Hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 41:10 Uh-

Kara Swisher 41:10 Okay.

Anthony Scaramucci 41:10 ... which is why he's always got three things of a self-hater. Humiliation rituals for people that you're insecure around. That's every world leader. He tries to bring 'em into the White House and ensnare them in some type of humiliation ritual.

Kara Swisher 41:25 Public humiliation.

Anthony Scaramucci 41:25 Or, or, yeah, or he'll bring 'em to Scotland even though he's the head of state, Keir Starmer, he's showing up at a guest in his own country to be humiliated, uh, where Trump is railing on the London Mayor. And so what, what self-haters do is they, they create and foment hatred. They excoriate and try to humiliate through humiliation rituals. And then the third thing they do is they wanna leave a stain and legacy of that. They want people to be turned on each other because it makes them feel better. They get satisfaction out of seeing people turn on each other. Right? Trump gets off on the idea that we're going after each other. He likes it.

Kara Swisher 42:10 Right. Right.

Anthony Scaramucci 42:11 And so those are things. And he's, he's, uh, I mean he's, he's, uh, he's, uh, you know, a lot of weird things about the guy. He's like a weirdo, but like, the self-hatred thing, do not-

Kara Swisher 42:20 So, but he-

Anthony Scaramucci 42:20 ... underestimate the self-hatred.

Kara Swisher 42:21 I, I don't, but the, the, this stuff-

Anthony Scaramucci 42:22 It could be the side effects of all the orange shit-

Kara Swisher 42:25 No.

Anthony Scaramucci 42:25 ... that's going into his blood stream.

Kara Swisher 42:26 (laughs)

Anthony Scaramucci 42:26 You know what I mean?

Kara Swisher 42:27 Um, but you, you, e- everyone talks about these are distractions. You've said it several times. These are actual things that happen now. Like, we're changing-

Anthony Scaramucci 42:34 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 42:35 ... things in museums.

Anthony Scaramucci 42:36 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 42:36 We're closing down this. A- a- and so I was, I was at a, m- um, at a, at a book fair this weekend and Jeff Goldberg who has w- had, had some good licks in on Trump, uh, wi- at the Atlantic was saying, you know, that he does all these distractions. And I almost got on and said, "Well, here's six things that actually happened because of the distractions." They aren't, they're not minor. They're, the, the, we use that term a lot. Like, but they're actually distractions with results. Right? Like, this is something that the right has been tr- trying to close down PBS for years, or the c- corporation for... This, it's years, decades.

Anthony Scaramucci 43:09 Oh. Oh, oh, okay. But I, I, let me just take the l- line. Think about what I'm saying though. Uh, we're gonna close down PBS 'cause it's going to make people sore and it's a sacred cow that the Republicans always talked about but never did anything about. So now we're gonna drop a bomb here to widen the divide between us.

Kara Swisher 43:30 Mm-hmm. I see.

Anthony Scaramucci 43:31 Trump wants to do that.So you have to understand that, yes, there are distractions, but there's also, "I want to leave a legacy of disrepair and hatred, and I want you guys to hate each other after I leave." You know, 'cause by the way, Jackie O, F her. I'm gonna pave over her rose garden.

Kara Swisher 43:51 Right.

Anthony Scaramucci 43:51 Okay? Because why am I gonna do that? 'Cause you're gonna get triggered and pissed about that, and I want you triggered and pissed, 'cause I hate myself so much that I want hatred to be an exponential force from my personality. Like, you know, Monroe had a doctrine, stay out of the Western hemisphere. Truman had a doctrine, we're gonna contain communis- communism. The Trump doctrine is a manifestation of his own self-hatred. And once you see that prism clearly, and you see, "Oh, okay, he hates himself, so this is what he's gonna do. Oh, wow, he's really afraid of Putin. Putin must really have something on him that's scaring the living daylights out of him, which is why he's immobile and paralyzed against a guy that's running a failed state with a declining population and high alcoholism. But I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go in that direction." Uh, but everything is through the v- the prism of self-hatred.

Kara Swisher 44:44 Of hate.

Anthony Scaramucci 44:44 So-

Kara Swisher 44:45 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 44:45 ... if he can hurt you, Kara, he will.

Kara Swisher 44:47 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 44:48 If he can humiliate you, he will. Uh, if he can put JD Vance in a meme where he looks like a big, fat Cabbage Patch doll-

Kara Swisher 44:57 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 44:57 ... riding in a separate clown car from him-

Kara Swisher 45:00 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 45:00 ... as they're chasing Obama on the freeway, in the OJ Bronco, he will. And by the way, JD says, "Ha ha, this was funny." He's crying on the inside.

Kara Swisher 45:10 (laughs)

Anthony Scaramucci 45:10 He's crying on the inside.

Kara Swisher 45:11 Oh, that's another episode for us, like, looking-

Anthony Scaramucci 45:12 No, but, but Kara, you have to understand is he ... because Trump is gonna put him through ... You remember that scene in Fargo where the guy's going through the wood chipper?

Kara Swisher 45:20 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 45:20 That's JD Vance, okay?

Kara Swisher 45:21 (laughs)

Anthony Scaramucci 45:22 Trump is gonna throw him so definitively into the wood chipper-

Kara Swisher 45:26 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 45:27 ... because he doesn't, uh, he doesn't want a younger guy replacing him when he leaves.

Kara Swisher 45:30 Yeah, who does he want replacing him?

Anthony Scaramucci 45:32 That would sort of be a total fiasco. So he wants-

Kara Swisher 45:33 Who does he want? Just very briefly, who does he want repla- if you had to guess-

Anthony Scaramucci 45:36 Nobody.

Kara Swisher 45:36 ... who would he pick? Nobody.

Anthony Scaramucci 45:37 Nobody, no. Remember, when he fired that blonde girl, can't remember her name, the blonde woman from the first season of Apprentice, he replaced her with Ivanka. Remember she got a few speaking gigs-

Kara Swisher 45:47 Yeah, Carolyn. Yeah, Carolyn.

Anthony Scaramucci 45:48 ... that pissed him off.

Kara Swisher 45:49 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 45:49 Right? And so then, then he put Ivankas. So if Ivanka and Don Jr. are not replacing him, or Eric not replacing him, nobody. You know, remember, remember when, remember when it ... I know ... I'm not comparing Trump to Hitler, but just remember this piece of history. When they told Hitler he was losing, he said, "Okay, great. Flood the coal mines, bring down the electrical grid in the country."

Kara Swisher 46:10 Right.

Anthony Scaramucci 46:10 And they looked at him and said, "What?"

Kara Swisher 46:12 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 46:12 "Yeah, well, if there's not gonna be a thousand year reich, uh-"

Kara Swisher 46:15 There's not gonna be a reich.

Anthony Scaramucci 46:15 "... let's destroy the whole thing."

Kara Swisher 46:17 If you had to pick one of the kids that he would pick to run, very briefly, which one would it be?

Anthony Scaramucci 46:22 Uh, well, you know, Ivanka's very smart, she's very talented, she's capable. Eric is a very smart guy. You know, when I listen to Eric talk about things like the blockchain, he understands it, okay? But the heartbeat of MAGA is Donald Trump Jr. Okay? They, they like him. Okay? And so I don't know, you know, I don't know which of those three, but I think Trump would be happy with all three, but they're three different flavors. You know, Ivanka's basically a Democrat, right? So, you know, probably no on her. Uh, Eric is not politically motivated, uh, but he's probably smarter, you know, than most people think. But it probably ... it would have to be Don Jr. Don Jr. is beloved by the base.

Kara Swisher 47:04 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 47:04 If you, if you ever see him with the base, you'll know, uh, they hold him in very high regard.

Kara Swisher 47:10 Mm- and do you?

Anthony Scaramucci 47:12 Okay, so I have a peace agreement with those guys.

Kara Swisher 47:15 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 47:16 You know, when I got into the fight with Trump, I always got along with them, and my agreement with them was, "Don't say anything bad about me on Twitter. I won't say anything bad about you. Kara Swisher's gonna ask you about me on the Pivot podcast five years from now."

Kara Swisher 47:29 (laughs) I bet.

Anthony Scaramucci 47:29 "Don't say anything bad about me."

Kara Swisher 47:31 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 47:31 And I have lived up to that agreement.

Kara Swisher 47:32 All right.

Anthony Scaramucci 47:32 And they have lived up to that agreement.

Kara Swisher 47:34 All right.

Anthony Scaramucci 47:34 So I'll simply say I get on with those guys. Eric wanted to come to my, uh, Bitcoin conference in Wyoming.

Kara Swisher 47:40 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 47:40 I invited him. No problem. I think they know that their father wants to pick fights with lots and lots of people.

Kara Swisher 47:47 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 47:47 And I don't think they want to be fighting with all the people that their father wants them to fight with.

Kara Swisher 47:52 That Trump picks. Got it. That makes sense. All right, Anthony, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. Okay, Anthony? Let's hear some wins and fails. You go first.

Anthony Scaramucci 48:00 Okay, so, so, so wins are ... I'm gonna say this. You're probably not gonna like this. But I, I think Elon W- Musk is winning.

Kara Swisher 48:08 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 48:08 Uh, I think he's backed into business. I think he raised a lot of money on xAI.

Kara Swisher 48:12 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 48:12 I participated in that.

Anthony Scaramucci 48:14 I will fully disclose that I'm an investor.

Kara Swisher 48:16 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 48:16 But I think Elon Musk is winning, uh, and I think ... so much so ... And I think Donald Trump is so afraid of Elon Musk-

Kara Swisher 48:23 He must be.

Anthony Scaramucci 48:23 ... that he, that he tweeted-

Kara Swisher 48:24 He started the Epstein thing. He started it.

Anthony Scaramucci 48:25 The Epstein thing, and he tweeted out, "Oh, I love Elon. I'm not coming after his businesses."

Kara Swisher 48:30 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 48:30 You know, blah, blah. Okay, so I think Elon Musk is winning, so that's a big win.

Kara Swisher 48:33 He got ... He ... Just so people know, Tesla just granted shares to Elon worth, uh, $29 billion describing as a good faith award-

Anthony Scaramucci 48:39 Yeah, so that's another big, that's another big win. Less than the $55 billion-

Kara Swisher 48:42 That's correct. (laughs) I was like-

Anthony Scaramucci 48:43 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 48:43 ... it's a li- it's a half. It's a half.

Anthony Scaramucci 48:44 Yeah, but, but, you know, that's also a win. But I think Elon's winning. Whether people like that or not, I think that's a definitive, objective win. I-

Kara Swisher 48:51 So you invested in xAI. You think that's a winner? Uh, or, I think he's-

Anthony Scaramucci 48:54 I do.

Kara Swisher 48:55 He's a real, he's a real behind. He's really quite behind in the race, compared to Google or ChatGPT, right?

Anthony Scaramucci 49:01 You think he's behind? I don't know. I'm, uh, I, I, I put $300 a month into Super Grok.

Kara Swisher 49:06 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 49:06 I think the thing is phenomenal.

Kara Swisher 49:07 Okay, all right.

Anthony Scaramucci 49:08 Uh, and I think it's distinctive.

Kara Swisher 49:10 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 49:10 But again, that's me. I'm not an AI expert. I'm just-

Kara Swisher 49:13 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 49:13 I use it for different things. I, I'm, I'm a, I'm a Cloud-

Kara Swisher 49:16 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 49:16 ... Claude, I guess it's called, subscriber.

Kara Swisher 49:18 Claude. Yeah, and Troken.

Anthony Scaramucci 49:19 Uh, ChatGPT subscriber.

Kara Swisher 49:20 You use them all. You use them all.

Anthony Scaramucci 49:22 I, I do, I do spend a lot of time on them.

Kara Swisher 49:23 I, I would say, if El- if Elon goes and does his businesses, he's better off.

Anthony Scaramucci 49:26 Right, so, so I think-

Kara Swisher 49:27 That's for sure. But I do think he is-... quite invol- He was the one that started the Epstein stuff, so it was he-

Anthony Scaramucci 49:32 Okay. So, I'm-

Kara Swisher 49:33 That was a warning to Trump.

Anthony Scaramucci 49:33 I'm gonna tell you, I'm gonna tell you another winner.

Kara Swisher 49:35 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 49:35 I'll give you three winners and I'll give you-

Kara Swisher 49:37 Okay.

Anthony Scaramucci 49:37 ... three losers, okay?

Kara Swisher 49:37 Okay, great.

Anthony Scaramucci 49:37 Another big winner w- controversial-

Kara Swisher 49:39 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 49:40 ... Jerome Powell.

Kara Swisher 49:41 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 49:41 Uh, because Jerome Powell's legacy is intact, okay? The guy's done a decent job. Not perfect. He got transitory inflation wrong, i- it was more secular. But he's done a decent job, he's a good human being, and he's one of the few guys that have stuck, stuck it to Trump a little bit. And he's done it in a very diplomatic way with some level of aplomb, and I think people need to learn about it that way. And then the third, the third winner, believe it or not, is actually the UK government related to the US. Uh, because they got the deal, they moved first, took advantage of Trump's love affair with, uh, uh, the monarchy and the Anglophile nature of Trump, and his mom from Scotland, and they got a 10% trade deal done before anybody else. And I think that they're a winner. I think the three failures, okay, are Vladimir Putin, huge failure. Uh, he's coming to the end here, Vladimir Putin. I don't, I don't think Vladimir Putin will survive what's coming, because you can't do what he did, declare war on Ukraine, lose the war, and stay in power in Russia. And you say, "Well, he hasn't lost the war." But he also hasn't won the war, and it's three years into it, and, you know, h- he may be able to stalemate this 'cause of the compromise he has on Trump till '28, but I think, I think you'll see Putin out, to the great surprise of people. So he's, he's a failure. Uh, another big failure, uh, is the American car industry is going to be slammed around by these tariffs. They won't be able to absorb all the prices. They're making good cars but they're not making great cars. The tariffs on the E- European cars are not gonna overly help them, frankly, because a lot of Mercedes and BMW are being made in the country now. And so, I think there's a problem there for the American car company. I think that's on the side of failure. And last but not least, the biggest failure that I've seen in the five years, uh, what I would say if you put out the, the yard markers and said, "Okay, last five... There's been 10 years of Trump. Who's been the greatest failure in the last five years?" That's the American Congress. The American Congress had a responsibility to check and balance the American system and, uh, to use an Italian expression, they did ugatz. They did ugats, okay? And your, your viewers and listeners could look up what u- ugats means. But they've really done nothing and they're, they're gonna be judged very poorly by history. So, so those are the three winners, those are the three failures.

Kara Swisher 52:16 All right. I'm gonna do mine. Um, I'm gonna do just two failures, actually, that I think were really striking in two different places. One, the Israeli government just voted, votes to remove the attorney general who's a Netanyahu critic. I think they have done more to diminish their standing, especially among young people, and they have only themselves to blame, especially with what's happening in Gaza. More and more people are calling it a genocide. We can see with our eyes what's happening there. Um, and so I think this government is hurtling towards, um, illegality, you know what I mean? In- in the things they're doing. And I think the thing that holds up a country is a country of laws. And, you know, you believe in the stock market, you believe in the laws, you believe in the courts. And, uh, I think they're, uh, uh, uh, he's gonna see a lot of pushback from people in that country at some point. Um, and I think they've done it to themselves. They have lost a generation of young people who would have been supportive of Israel. So, I think that's, the- especially this, um, voting to remove the attorney general, which is, I think, the, at the heart of things like that, becau- because he's a Netanyahu critic. And Netanyahu's sucked up into corruption that is so obvious, um, and he's bad at it, by the way. Trump is quite good at corruption, um, and uh, and Netanyahu's bad at it. The other thing is Nancy Mace running for, uh, governor of, um, South Carolina. I think... I've never seen a p- politician just sort of run herself into a wall on so many things. Uh, someone who seemed promising, for sure, um, has, has become really a joke to everybody in Congress that I talk to. Um, I think she's looking for her exit, uh, to try to run for governor. She'll certainly be ahead in the beginning, uh, because of her name recognition and the, the antics that she pulls. Uh, but I think she's, uh, probably, like a lot of... Uh, uh, men can do it a little better, but they're, they're... Not necessarily. And I think she has ruined what could have been a really interesting political career. Um, but I think she's got a lot of personal problems that are on top of that. Um, if I had to say, I- I agree with you about Elon. If he gets back to business, I think he's, I think Trump should be... Everyone was talking about him being, uh, he should be scared of Trump. I think Trump should be scared of him. That's my feeling. I feel like he is... He's not Omarosa, like I say. He's not Omarosa and he, he is the first person who mentioned the Epstein stuff. He has enormous power around the world. And so, uh, I think if he gets back to business and, and, and, uh, and focuses there-

Anthony Scaramucci 54:38 Well-

Kara Swisher 54:38 ... he has a lot of, uh, levers to pull.

Anthony Scaramucci 54:40 Not, not, not to interrupt, but just remember this one tweet which was very insightful. Elon said, "You're gonna be around for three and a half years. I'm gonna be around for the next 40." And I think, I think Elon, whatever his weaknesses are, and I'm sure we all have strengths and weaknesses-

Kara Swisher 54:56 Mm-hmm. He's got a lot of weaknesses.

Anthony Scaramucci 54:58 Okay. But he's-

Kara Swisher 54:58 I'm sure you're very kind to him, as you know.

Anthony Scaramucci 54:59 I think we have to stipulate that he's a smart guy-

Kara Swisher 55:02 Absolutely.

Anthony Scaramucci 55:02 ... and he sees, he sees the egg. He see the hare on the egg-

Kara Swisher 55:05 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 55:05 ... particularly as it relates to Tr-

Kara Swisher 55:07 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 55:07 And by the way, I, I, you know, I told his buddies he was gonna get blown out of there. Elon lasted 12 Scaramuccis.

Kara Swisher 55:14 He did.

Anthony Scaramucci 55:15 Okay? 12 times longer. By the way, it was-

Kara Swisher 55:17 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 55:17 ... exactly 11.8-

Kara Swisher 55:19 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 55:19 But I'm the official scorer of Scaramuccis-

Kara Swisher 55:20 Okay.

Anthony Scaramucci 55:20 I think I should be.

Kara Swisher 55:22 Yeah, I think you should be.

Anthony Scaramucci 55:22 And I'm a generous guy, I round up.

Kara Swisher 55:24 Yeah, okay.

Anthony Scaramucci 55:24 So he lasted 12 Scaramuccis-

Kara Swisher 55:26 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 55:27 ... and that was 12 times longer than me.

Kara Swisher 55:29 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 55:29 But here's the thing, Elon-

Kara Swisher 55:32 He w- is endorsed.

Anthony Scaramucci 55:32 ... has seen the malevolence.

Kara Swisher 55:34 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 55:34 Because you don't write you're on the list-

Kara Swisher 55:37 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 55:38 If... That, that's a code for-

Kara Swisher 55:39 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 55:40 ... you're a really bad-

Kara Swisher 55:42 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 55:42 ... FG. You're a really-

Kara Swisher 55:44 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 55:44 ... bad FG.

Kara Swisher 55:45 Mm-hmm.Yep. I agree with you. I think he's someone who's gonna endure. And if he cleaned himself up a lit- I mean, uh, a lot of what he's done is unforgivable, but, uh, he will be forgiven, especially if he creates economic value. Uh, and he will be around a lot longer. I don't think that's necessarily a win, but, uh, I think he definitely is in much more of a commanding position than Trump realizes. And I think he was wrong to, um, to fight, to, to do what they did to him. Uh, I think they c- there would have been a nicer way to part. Anyway, w-

Anthony Scaramucci 56:13 You can't do e- But you can't do that with Trump.

Kara Swisher 56:14 You can't do that. You can't do it. That's right. I, I would see Trump maybe embracing him again. Anyway, I don't know if Elon will embrace Trump though. Uh, I think he's moved on. Uh, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot, submit a question for the show, or call 855-51-PIVOT. Over on On With Kara Swisher this week, I spoke with former Labor Secretary Robert Reich, uh, about why Democrats are struggling right now. Let's listen to a clip.

Narrator 56:40 The reason Democrats are so unpopular is they don't have a, a coherent and authentic message that translates to average people as authentic and real, because the corporate Democrats, the financial Democrats, the, the Wall Street Democrats, uh, don't allow them to. Uh, you know, a lot of Democrats I know are scared. They don't want to bite the hands that feed them.

Kara Swisher 57:06 I think you'll probably agree with that, Anthony.

Anthony Scaramucci 57:09 I agree with that. He, he is a former professor of mine.

Kara Swisher 57:11 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 57:11 I have an enormous amount of respect for him, but I al- he also gave an interview in one of the Sunday news magazines.

Kara Swisher 57:17 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 57:18 Uh, I can't remember if it was The New York Times or the FT, but I read the interview, and he's calling for the Madhavis and he's calling for these sort of harder left people to coalesce the party. I think that'll be a, a 1972 McGovern-like nightmare for the Democrats, and I, and I think it's a big mistake because this is ... It's a center right country. Uh, we have, we have religious orthodoxy in this country. Uh, it's, uh, you, you know, you and I might be secular. I'm not saying you are, but I, I'm more secular than the religious orthodox, so ... And I, I don't, but I, I, I think that Europeans in general don't understand this because they, by and large now, the majority of the population is secular, but this country has a lot of religious ferocity to it still.

Kara Swisher 58:03 Yep.

Anthony Scaramucci 58:03 And I think the, I think the Democrats have really missed the mark on that.

Kara Swisher 58:06 But-

Anthony Scaramucci 58:06 You know what Trump once said to me? This is an important-

Kara Swisher 58:08 Right.

Anthony Scaramucci 58:08 ... thing to tell your viewers.

Kara Swisher 58:09 Right.

Anthony Scaramucci 58:10 Trump said to me on the campaign plane, he says, "You know, you're an idiot." I said, "Yes, I know I'm an idiot, but why am I an idiot?"

Kara Swisher 58:16 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 58:17 He said, "Well, you're a Wall Street guy. You're fiscally conservative and you're socially liberal. Am I right?"

Kara Swisher 58:22 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 58:23 I said, "Yes, I'm fiscally conservative, socially liberal." He says, "My base, Anthony, my base fiscally con- fisc- " Excuse me. "My base, Anthony, fiscally liberal-"

Kara Swisher 58:35 They are.

Anthony Scaramucci 58:35 "... socially conservative."

Kara Swisher 58:37 He's correct. That's how ... That is actually-

Anthony Scaramucci 58:38 Okay.

Kara Swisher 58:38 I just was talking to Kristen, um, uh, Soltis Anderson. She said that exactly ... They ... It is true. That is 100% true.

Anthony Scaramucci 58:44 Yeah, but when ... He said that to me in 2016.

Kara Swisher 58:47 Right.

Anthony Scaramucci 58:47 The Democrats, wake up.

Kara Swisher 58:49 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 58:49 Wake up. He, he, he understands this base-

Kara Swisher 58:52 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 58:52 ... and believe it or not, a lot of his base used to vote for you.

Kara Swisher 58:56 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 58:56 Okay? And so wake up and get in the middle before it's too late.

Kara Swisher 59:00 Well, I, I, I have a different take on this. I think everybody should be who they are and authentic of where they are. If you're Abby Spanberger, you're a centrist right in Virginia, or, or Mickey Sherrill in, in New Jersey, or-

Anthony Scaramucci 59:10 Yeah, I like that.

Kara Swisher 59:11 A- a- and if you're Mamdani, be mam- be yourself. I think be yourself is ... And it may be different across the country, and I'm not sure anyone should stand for anything with the Democrats. I think they should stand for a lot of things. Uh, and they ... I know that sounds crazy, but if you're genuine to who you are, I think you do well where you are. We're always looking for someone who represents everybody, and that's impossible in this day and age.

Anthony Scaramucci 59:32 Uh, I think it's well said, but I just think if you're gonna go hard left in this country right now, uh, particularly with the woke-ism ending-

Kara Swisher 59:40 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 59:40 ... go hard left, you're gonna lose elections. That's what I think. You may, you may win in New York-

Kara Swisher 59:44 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 59:44 ... and you may win in Minnesota, you may win the mayor's race-

Kara Swisher 59:46 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 59:46 ... in Minnesota, Minneapolis-

Kara Swisher 59:48 Right.

Anthony Scaramucci 59:48 ... but you're gonna lose the gener- big general election, and it's gonna be very painful.

Kara Swisher 59:50 If you're not in f- for, for the general election, for the larger country, that's-

Anthony Scaramucci 59:53 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 59:53 ... absolutely true. But we'll, we'll see. We'll see where it goes. Um-

Anthony Scaramucci 59:56 We'll see.

Kara Swisher 59:56 ... can I ask you one last question?

Anthony Scaramucci 59:57 Please.

Kara Swisher 59:58 Right now, I want to do a prediction. Who is the, who are the two presidential slates in 2028?

Anthony Scaramucci 1:00:05 (inhales) So I think Newsom is gonna be the nominee for the Democrats. I, I think he'll pick a, uh, Midwestern moderate. Uh, he'll probably pick a white guy. I know that sounds crazy, but I think he probably will. Uh, it'll end the virtue signaling that's going on on the left and you'll get the same policies, and they'll be more acceptable to some of the, uh, anti-woke moderates that are out there. So I think it's Newsom.

Kara Swisher 1:00:30 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:00:31 And-

Kara Swisher 1:00:31 Not Westmore.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:00:33 Not Westmore. No, I don't think so.

Kara Swisher 1:00:34 (laughs)

Anthony Scaramucci 1:00:34 I don't, I, I don't, I don't think so. Uh, I think b- you know, I mean, I don't know how honest you want me to be on this podcast, but I think-

Kara Swisher 1:00:40 Yeah, I do. No, I want you to lie on your face.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:00:41 ... but I think Obama has hurt the ability for an African American to get the nomination. I don't think people realize the existential damage that Obama did. Uh, Van Jones called it a white lash. That's, that was the apotheosis of Donald Trump. And so, I think the way Obama handled the presidency has hurt that, if I'm just being brutally honest. And I think th- I think the last two women that were the nominees for the r- Democrats have hurt the women standing in the party for now, and people could be very mad at me for saying this. I'm talking about this as a realist, as an analyst, not as, not a normative thing of what ought or should be. I'm just talking about what actually is, and I think Newsom gets it. Newsom has shown some muscularity. Newsom did a good job in LA in terms of the way they defended themselves against Trump's brown-shirted lunatics, and L- Newsom is standing up on the gerrymandering, and Newsom is putting a finger in Trump's eye, and he's doing a better job trolling him in social media, uh, a- a- and I, and I, and I think, I think he wins it. And by the way, uh, I was on Gavin's podcast-

Kara Swisher 1:01:45 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:01:46 ... and I read to Gavin all the-

Kara Swisher 1:01:47 Yeah, be- he's, he's gotten to every white guy, but go a- I joke with him. I'm like-

Anthony Scaramucci 1:01:50 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:01:50 ... "Another white guy today. How interesting." (laughs)

Anthony Scaramucci 1:01:52 And then the other-The other thing I would tell you, just quickly-

Kara Swisher 1:01:56 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:01:56 ... is that it will not be-

Kara Swisher 1:01:58 Yeah.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:01:58 ... it will not be Marco Rubio.

Kara Swisher 1:01:59 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:02:00 It will not be J.D. Vance.

Kara Swisher 1:02:02 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:02:03 Uh, but I think there'll be a candidate that comes out of the woodwork that surprises people.

Kara Swisher 1:02:09 Who?

Anthony Scaramucci 1:02:10 I know this is crazy. It could be-

Kara Swisher 1:02:11 All right.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:02:11 ... a Charlie Baker, who's now-

Kara Swisher 1:02:12 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:02:12 ... running the, uh, uh, NCAA.

Kara Swisher 1:02:15 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:02:15 He was the former governor of, uh-

Kara Swisher 1:02:17 Of Massachusetts.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:02:18 ... Massachusetts.

Kara Swisher 1:02:18 Very popular governor.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:02:19 Uh, it could be a John Thune.

Kara Swisher 1:02:21 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:02:21 Okay? Although I think he's a jellyfish.

Kara Swisher 1:02:23 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:02:23 I think he's a, a well-regarded-

Kara Swisher 1:02:25 President Jellyfish to you. Go ahead.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:02:27 Yeah, President Jellyfish to me, but I think he's a guy that could-

Kara Swisher 1:02:30 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:02:30 ... uh, could help the Republicans get back to something that's more normal-

Kara Swisher 1:02:34 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:02:35 ... to their principles and their philosophy.

Kara Swisher 1:02:37 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:02:37 Uh, and, but I don't think it's gonna be Vance, and I don't think it... Remember-

Kara Swisher 1:02:41 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:02:41 ... the MAGA ends with Trump.

Kara Swisher 1:02:43 Mm-hmm.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:02:43 It's a personality cult. The people have more or less accepted that, even though they don't like pedophilia. They're holding their noses, lots of them. Uh, but they won't be able to, Vance won't be able to command that, or Rubio. And, uh, and so I think it's- it's like a Thune, Baker sort of a guy, uh, going up against Newsom. It'll be white males-

Kara Swisher 1:03:04 Yeah, white males as far as you could see.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:03:06 ... go- going up against white males, Kara Swisher.

Kara Swisher 1:03:08 The males are as high as an elephant's eye.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:03:10 Right. I can s- I can hear the derision in your voice.

Kara Swisher 1:03:13 (laughs)

Anthony Scaramucci 1:03:13 But I just think that's what's gonna happen.

Kara Swisher 1:03:14 Yeah, I agree with you. I have to say, I do agree with you, although I'm, I'm not sure it's Newsom. But, uh, there is a number of choices in that regard. Um, okay. That is the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot, and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Anthony, as usual, thank you for joining us.

Anthony Scaramucci 1:03:31 And I appreciate being on. Give my regards to Scott.

Kara Swisher 1:03:33 I will. And thank you so much. I will read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Kevin Oliver. Ernie Enderdot engineered this episode. Nishant Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. And Anthony, I'll be right over to look in your closet and put on your Batman outfit. Thank you.