PivotAs DOGE Brings Chaos, What is Elon Musk's Endgame? | Pivot
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
110 min read · 22,053 words- 0:00 – 1:03
Intro
- KSKara Swisher
Keep going for big balls.
- KDKatie Drummond
Tesla.sexy, LLC and-
- KSKara Swisher
I know.
- KDKatie Drummond
... big balls. Two things I am very sorry that I have to keep saying on TV-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- KDKatie Drummond
... interviews and podcasts.
- NANarrator
(instrumental music)
- KSKara Swisher
Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. Scott is off today, who knows where he is. But in his place, we have someone so much better. Katy Drummond, the global editorial director of Wired. Wired has always been a powerhouse, but particularly in the era of Trump, Elon, and Doge, which I'm calling Dog-e now, and its coverage, uh, has become required reading. Katy, welcome. You've had a busy couple weeks with all these scoops on Doge, which, uh, led to a record-breaking increase in subscriptions. We'll get to that in a second, but welcome. Thank you for coming.
- KDKatie Drummond
Thank you so much for having me. I am also in a mysterious location, but I'm not gonna tell you where I am either.
- KSKara Swisher
O- okay, all right. Well, you're here at least-
- KDKatie Drummond
I'm here.
- KSKara Swisher
... as opposed to whatever the hell Scott's doing, taking edibles and-
- KDKatie Drummond
(laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
... not skiing, wherever he is. Um, so I want to talk a little bit, because you guys have really
- 1:03 – 9:39
Wired’s Coverage of Elon and DOGE
- KSKara Swisher
come on strong here. Now, I'd like... Tell me about your approach to covering this administration. Now, you became global editorial director relatively recently, right? Is that correct?
- KDKatie Drummond
Uh, yes. Time is a funny thing these days, but it was about a year and a half ago. It was September 2023, um, I got the job, I started, and, and actually, the second, my second day on the job, I emailed my boss. My boss is Anna Wintour, um-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm. That must be fun.
- KDKatie Drummond
It's, it's actually delightful. She's amazing.
- KSKara Swisher
(laughs) Yeah.
- KDKatie Drummond
Um, and I said, "I need to hire a politics team, and here's why, and here's what I want to do." So it was... I, I'm happy to talk more about it, but it was sort of from i- f- from inception, I think looking ahead at 2024, which is obviously a critical election year for the United States and for so many other countries around the world. At the time, in my head, it was much more about, uh, generative AI, mis- and disinformation, um, you know, hacking, um, and those sort of tech-adjacent adjacencies to politics. I wasn't, I wasn't thinking, "Well, obviously Elon Musk is gonna jump in, um, and end up, like, sleeping at the White House." Like, that wasn't on my radar at the time, um, but (laughs) but certainly our coverage has evolved, uh, a great deal since then.
- KSKara Swisher
And why did you have that instinct? Because of AI around the world, regulatory issues, you know, the, the... That was the, the focus, was that everybody's gonna be focused in on what AI means and the governments, including-
- KDKatie Drummond
AI was a major catalyst at the time, and I think my feeling was... You know, Wired covers a lot. I think Wired being described as, like, a tech outlet is, is, is incorrect and sort of misses the forest for the trees, but you can't separate technology from politics anymore. And so it just felt like we, we had the tech industry coverage, we had the consumer tech coverage, we had the science coverage, we had all this other coverage, but we were missing this really important piece over here that made, made everything kind of click together. Like, you can't cover artificial intelligence without looking at, well, how is it being used in elections? How is it being regulated? How are politicians talking about this technology? Um, so it, it just felt like we needed that political expertise on the team.
- KSKara Swisher
So when did you sort of get the idea that you, that you should really look at Doge? 'Cause I think it's really... I mean, I'm, I'm feeling like, how did they get into this de- USAID. Where did you get the so- you know, all this stuff that you were getting, and the identities and information about all these people that were working for it? Because that, that, that's years of, of beat reporting, essentially. I mean, I- I was trying to figure it out. I'm like, "Wow, they were up to speed rather quickly and rather accurately on what's happening." What was the, what was the strategy there?
- KDKatie Drummond
I, I would love to say it was years of beat reporting, because I... that is something that I believe in and that is something we have implemented at Wired, is the notion of each reporter owns a beat. We believe in it- iterative reporting. So what that means, essentially, for someone who doesn't work in journalism, is you sort of... you break off pieces of a story, you publish what you're able to confirm at any given time, and that reporting builds on itself and builds and builds and builds. You don't wait. I think it was over the summer, um, when, when now-President Trump was shot in the ear. You remember those, the photos, the raising the fist, these sort of iconic images, um, that I said to the staff, "There is a very good chance that this person is president again. There's a very good chance that he wins." Because that was such a seminal moment in this election, and, and shortly after was when Elon jumped in, endorsed Trump, and really started, like, running into that campaign with, you know, I think something like $280 million ultimately in contributions, um, and obviously a lot of, of, uh, contribution via his megaphone, um, on X that he uses. Um, so it was at that moment that we knew we had to really focus on Elon Musk, and we had to really focus on Trump as probable president-elect. And so at that, at that point, you know, we ultimately assigned someone to cover Elon Musk in government, like Elon Musk as political operative. That is your beat, that is what you own. So that was in July. So, you know, we had a lot of, of lead time to start sourcing up because it was over the summer that we said, "Everybody here, no matter what you cover, in some way, shape, or form, what you cover will be impacted by a Trump administration. So you need to start working on that now." And, and people did. I mean, they did. And so we were, we were prepared, I think, in large part because of that, and then I think in large part because we have journalists on the team, including Zoe Schiffer, who joined us, uh, in January, who knows a lot about Elon Musk. I mean, she wrote a whole book about him, uh, acquiring Twitter. So I think we had the, the political aspect of it staffed up and, and running. We had the tech industry coverage and the sort of expertise on Elon. And when you combine all of that together really forcefully, which I think we're, we're very good at being very forceful, we just ran at that story. Like, we ran at that story.
- KSKara Swisher
That's interesting that you used the word forceful, because I- I get what you're doing, 'cause we've done it. We did it previously at All Things D with Uber or Yahoo, whatever the story was. It's nothing like this story, I'll tell you. This is quite, uh, I wouldn't even know what to do with this story, but, um, talk about forcefulness, because it's really important to have an editor who is, uh, y- you're a critical part of this. I- I, as I know, 'cause I've been there. Like, not on this big a story, but talk about the idea of forcefulness and aggression in doing that. And not in a negative way.
- KDKatie Drummond
No, I love forcefulness and aggression. I mean, I, um ... Gosh, that's such an interesting question. I just, I think that I am a, a forceful and relatively aggressive person, um, and I think that my enthusiasm for news and for scoops comes through very loudly and very clearly to the team, and I think it has since I started the job and made it very clear what we were here to do, which was to interrogate power structures within the tech industry. Like, that is what I'm interested in doing.
- KSKara Swisher
And another thing is, people do try to stop you. Do you personally feel pressure, um, when you ... Or do you feel that you have to pull back in any way?
- KDKatie Drummond
Mm-hmm.
- KSKara Swisher
I've noticed a pullback among certain people, uh, for sure.
- KDKatie Drummond
No. No. No, and it's, and it's not even some grandiose notion that I have. I, um ... I mean, I remember when we published that, one of, one of our first stories naming several of these young engineers, and it was an explosive story. We got a, we got a lot of criticism, and, and, and it's not that I was surprised by any of it, but I just hadn't ... Like, the, the idea of softening that story had not even entered my mind, and I don't say that to, to brag. Um, I, I say it because we're just, like, this is the job. Like, this is my, this is, I get paid to do this. Like, this is my job. I take my job very seriously. I love what I do, um, but I have not thought for a second that we should soften anything that we're doing. I think what we owe our audience is very clear, very transparent, like, very direct coverage and explanations of exactly what is happening as we are able to learn it and confirm it. Like, that's all we're doing. That's, that's it.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, exactly. One of the things that was, the attacks were so disingenuous, you know?
- KDKatie Drummond
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
You're, you're saying who they are. You were not saying "little pricks" or anything else.
- KDKatie Drummond
No.
- KSKara Swisher
You know, you were ... I, I was saying that. But, um, but you, you were very clearly just I- saying this is who's working on this stuff. This is the federal government. It deserves transparency. And those attacks were disingenuous. I mean, they, he, he attacked, uh, Elon attacked Scott and I for being mean to them or something like that. It was just, it's part of a narrative they have, trying to get on how these poor kids ... "How dare you attack these poor kids?"
- KDKatie Drummond
Right. I mean, the notion that there is something illegal about naming individuals working within federal agencies at the behest of Elon Musk is nonsense. Like, I just, I don't even, I don't even understand what that means.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, exactly, and those stories or anything. So let's go into some of these stories, 'cause I think it's really ... People are sort of, it's a breathtaking level of scoops, I have to say. It's really ... And I think a lot of people are doing a great job now, and what's interesting is they've, they've stepped up since you stepped up. It actually creates a, creates a, an energy around the coverage itself, uh, which I think is ... I've noticed just today, I saw about three stories elsewhere, and I was like, "This would only be because Wired's been so aggressive."
- KDKatie Drummond
Oh.
- KSKara Swisher
Um-
- KDKatie Drummond
I appreciate that.
- KSKara Swisher
... and stuff. But you can feel it. You can feel it.
- KDKatie Drummond
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
But, uh, people were slow to the-
- KDKatie Drummond
Yeah.
- 9:39 – 17:43
Who’s Really Running DOGE?
- KSKara Swisher
There's a lot happening in the land of Doge, Doggie, as I say, so let's dig in. Uh, one shocking thing we learned this week, Elon Musk's apparently not in charge of Doggie. Uh, the White House said in a court filing that Elon Musk is not the US Doggy Service Administrator. I'm sorry to say it that way, but I'm gonna keep doing it. I- he's an employee in the White House office akin to a senior advisor. Talk a little bit about this, um, and I'm gonna go into some of your stories too, but talk about, um, about what you thought. Is this the loopiest of loopholes? Uh, the White House can stay out of legal trouble. Several states' attorney generals argued in a suit last week that Elon is wielding power that can only be held by elected officials and people confirmed by the Senate, but a federal judge ruled there wasn't enough evidence for imminent, irreparable harm to justify a temporary restraining order, that this is a legal nicety. They make ... Th- the judge also expressed questions about what the White House was doing.
- KDKatie Drummond
Yes, uh, questions is, isn't quite taking it far enough, I don't think, at this point, but, uh, I'm not a judge. Um, so my understanding of this ... I mean, first of all, it is just, it is chaos across the board. It's like, wait, sorry, the President of the United States has been saying for months that Elon Musk is in charge of Doge, that he runs Doge. He's in charge of Doge. Elon's doing this thing. Elon's making these decisions. All of a sudden, in a court filing, we now have the White House saying, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no. He's just, like, helping out. He's just helping the President." That is just c- first of all, total chaos. Second of all, my understanding of that sworn statement, just to be clear, it is a sworn statement, is that essentially, that allows Elon to continue doing what Elon is doing within these federal agencies and within Doge without facing legal ramifications for overstepping in a role that, to what you just said, ought to be an elected position. Like, he ought to have had to be elected or confirmed in some way, shape, or form. Um, instead, he just walked right in the front door. And I think what they are trying to do is avoid any legal scenario where he needs to stop down what he is working on.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm. So Wired published a story last week about a law that could possibly stop some of, uh, Doggie's actions. C- explain that. Explain what you're doing, 'cause you are building, you're building a case, right? In your own way, in a journalistic way.
- KDKatie Drummond
Yeah, I think trying to ... You know, there have been so many lawsuits at this point filed about what Doge is doing. What several of them have in common is that they rely on this Watergate-era law, the Privacy Act, um, that essentially prevents government employees from accessing Americans' data in a variety of different ways, so it essentially is designed to safeguard very sensitive information about the American people from ...... uh, agents within the US government. And so essentially, we have lawsuits saying, you know, everything that's happening here, sort of the access that Doge appears to have within these agencies, is a violation of this Privacy Act that was instituted, you know, several decades ago. Um, you know, whether that actually succeeds in any or all of these lawsuits is an open question, and I think one thing that's interesting to me and I think troubling to me is that, you know, that argument could succeed in, in one instance, let's say a lawsuit with regards to access in the Treasury Department, and it could fail in another instance, so let's say access to IRS data, right? So you have this sort of like Band-Aid slapdash approach to trying to just, like, stop Doge from accessing as much data as possible, but how do you, how do you stop them from accessing data wholesale on sort of like a holistic level? Um, I don't think we have an answer to that.
- KSKara Swisher
We have an answer in these lawsuits. And do you have a legal reporter cover... How do you, how do you... 'C- 'cause I think the lawsuits will reveal a lot, but it's the slowest way of dealing with a very difficult situation.
- KDKatie Drummond
It's, it's the slowest way, and certainly it opens up questions about whether or not the administration decides to abide by the rulings of the courts, right? I mean, I think that's an existential question for the country. Um, you know, we don't have a legal reporter, we just have really, really smart security and politics reporters and, you know, a ma- a team of managers on top of them who are the smartest journalists I've ever worked with, and we make a lot of phone calls. So we talk to a lot of experts who know this stuff inside and out and can essentially help us translate all of that information for the audience to make it as easy as possible for people to understand, you know, what, what is happening and what potential safeguards exist to prevent it from happening.
- KSKara Swisher
So you use the word chaos a lot, um, i- it's important. This is, this is one of Elon's fave signature moves, chaos, to create chaos or create trouble and then make accusations. He's got six or seven moves, including attacking you for revealing the names, for example. But chaos is the point here, I think, in many ways, so that everyone has to run around and do these Band-Aid approaches.
- KDKatie Drummond
Yeah, it's interesting too because chaos, um, is also a signature move of, of President Trump. And so we're sort of seeing chaos in a big-picture way across the entire federal government, the entire federal apparatus, Doge being one pocket of chaos that, like, sits within the larger chaos umbrella. So it's just like chaos everywhere you look, um, and I, I actually think, my sort of theory is that at least some of the chaos being created by the Trump administration in a big-picture way is distracting people from, like, the nitty-gritty Doge chaos that's happening inside of all of these agencies in this, in this sort of simultaneous and concurrent way. So I actually think, like a lot of the, you know, it's like the, the Gulf of America, all of the-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm. Yes.
- KDKatie Drummond
... the craziness about-
- KSKara Swisher
Gulf of Distraction, yeah.
- KDKatie Drummond
Yeah, the DEI stuff, as, as a- as awful as it is, I think these are... You know, Canada is the 51st state. Like, these are distractions while 25-year-old engineers who interned at SpaceX are trying to obtain administrative access to very sensitive systems that contain data about millions of Americans.
- KSKara Swisher
Can you g- give people a sense o- of why they want that? I have a th- I have a theory, but what is your... What, what is their need for getting that, to get to the data?
- KDKatie Drummond
That's a really good question. If I had an answer to that question, I would be publishing a story.
- KSKara Swisher
(laughs)
- KDKatie Drummond
Um, I mean, if, if you say that they want to train AI on Americans' data, I will smile and laugh and freak out, um, although I, I certainly wouldn't, wouldn't put it past them. I mean, I just... I think that, that Elon Musk wants complete and total control of the entire federal infrastructure and apparatus. I think that's sort of, that's what the driving force is here. I don't think he's in it for his contracts. I don't think he's in it to, like, make Tesla a more successful company. I think he's in it to run the thing the way he runs every other company in his portfolio. Um, whether or not he wants that data to train an AI, um, I think is an open question, but I'm curious to hear what you think.
- KSKara Swisher
I- i- it does, it does vaunt Grok ahead-
- KDKatie Drummond
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
... which is not ahead. Grok is not ahead.
- KDKatie Drummond
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
But it vaunts, it puts him in a pole position, because there... You know, as you know, many, um, AI researchers think we're running out of data, right? That, that's be- that's been the big discussion recently. Well, there you go. And you're right, he does, but what, for what purpose does he want to run it? That's the, that's the part that's gonna be very difficult to report, um, when you're thinking about it in that big a term.
- KDKatie Drummond
And, and you have a better sense of his psychology than I do, um, but there certainly seems to be something very, very deeply buried inside of him that just wants to run everything. I mean, it s- just feels like pure ego.
- KSKara Swisher
Or he wants to go to Mars and he needs the government to do so. There's all kinds of theories
- 17:43 – 25:18
DOGE’s Strategy
- KSKara Swisher
on that. So let's talk about the, the, the relationship you mentioned between Donald Trump and Elon Musk. They sat down for a joint interview with Sean Hannity, the House, uh, the House reporter there at the White House, um, uh, and I mean that in a negative way. Um, uh, Hannity felt, uh, said he felt like he was interviewing two brothers, uh, Hannity... It was the biggest wet kiss, he licked him up and down the entire time. Elon shared how much money he's trying to cut from the deficit. Let's listen.
- DTDonald Trump
The overall goal is to try to get a trillion dollars out of the deficit, and if we, if we, if the deficit is not brought under control, America will go bankrupt. This is a very important thing for people to understand. Um, a country is no different from an individual in that if an individual overspends, that individual can go bankrupt, and so can a country.
- KSKara Swisher
... God, that's the idiot's guide to how countries are run. But, um, uh, that's not correct. That's not correct, but while Doze says it saved $55 billion in federal spending so far, the actual data shows it's much less. Um, one major error found on the Do- the Doge website, it mislabeled the contract as eight billion when it was actually eight million. You all have been doing a lot of reporting around this, this idea of what, um, the, the cuts that are being made, and NPR just did one showing the same thing that it's, this is not $55 billion. Um, uh, and of course now they're also talking about sending people dividend checks, which w- is trying to make people happy with them and allowing them to keep doing what they're doing. It's, that, it's come rather early, the payoff has come rather early. But, um, talk a little bit about this and, and what they're, what these young people are trying to do, and i- are there more of them moving into the space now that it's gotten momentum?
- KDKatie Drummond
Moving into Doge?
- KSKara Swisher
Yes.
- KDKatie Drummond
Yeah. From everything we can tell, you know, Doge is expanding. I mean, the, the budget for Doge I think last week expanded, um, to the tune of several million dollars which, which strongly suggests that they are onboarding more personnel, that they're bringing more people in, um, not exactly, um, a model of efficiency themselves, uh, if they continue at this, at this rate. Um, but, you know, essentially what we have been able to establish, like, there's a pattern to what they are doing, right? So, they, they gain access to an agency. They gain access to, in particular, I think systems that contain, you know, personnel files, personnel data about, you know, who is, who is a probationary employee, for example, right? So that's someone as, as the Trump administration recently changed the rules around this, someone who is, um, I think, like, in a, they, they made the probationary period one year instead of two years, I think, which basically allowed them to fire more people. Um, so they're going into these agencies, obtaining data about, about personnel and salaries, and then they are just, you know, pushing through, like, sweeping layoffs of hundreds or thousands of federal workers across, you know, every agency that you can possibly imagine and sort of a new one every day, right? I think that has become, like, the repeat sort of Mad Libs version of these stories is Doge is now inside X agency doing Y layoffs. Like, that's, that is the story. The reality though is first of all to indiscriminately fire thousands of civil servants without really having an in-depth understanding of what each, of what they do, what it even means to be in a probationary period, because that also applies to someone who was recently promoted. So, you have people who have been 10, 20, 30 year government workers who were just lumped into this probationary worker category and fired, first of all. So, there's that whole hot mess express over there. But when the rubber hits the road, like, when you look at the math, like, when you do the numbers, firing a bunch of civil servants isn't gonna get you a trillion dollars. Like, that's not where the money is. And so you have these sort of, these big promises, these sweeping claims about savings from, like, "We cut this contract. We don't subscribe to Politico Pro anymore. Look at us go. Look at all the people that we're firing." That doesn't actually add up to that much money. And so I think the, the question is like, well, where are you planning on finding the other, like, $92 billion that you need to find-
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- KDKatie Drummond
... to get to a trillion dollars?
- KSKara Swisher
To get, to do so. When you, um, uh, uh, when you were looking at who is doing this, it's indiscriminate 'cause they're also inexperienced. Um, the, the vetting of these people who are doing this is also, you're doing the vetting. Y- WIRED is doing the vetting, that's right? And a lot of them have sort of, what I'm not surprised by, but typical obnoxious tech bro behaviors, you know, in terms of being on certain sites, doing certain things.
- KDKatie Drummond
Yeah. WIRED is doing the vetting. To, to the credit of so many other journalists too, I mean, other, other news organizations, um, i- you know, Wall Street Journal, very notably, um, Bloomberg, have been, been breaking some really important stories about some of these individuals as well. I think one thing that's important to note is sort of how this recruiting appears to have happened in the first place. So, we published a story i think 10 days ago about, um, you know, essentially, like, former interns at, uh, at companies like SpaceX or Palantir going to online forums for alumni of those internship programs or of those companies and basically doing, like, a spray and pray. Like, "Hey guys, does anyone want to save the federal government? Like, DM me and we'll get you, like, onboarded with Doge." So, that appears to have been, you know, the very sort of elite handpicked recruiting process was actually just, you know, posting in, in message boards. Um, from there, it's relatively unclear what kind of vetting actually happened or whether there was an interview process, whether there were background checks, security clearances. I mean, we published a story about one of these guys, um, who goes by Big Balls. We've all heard about Big Balls.
- KSKara Swisher
Big Balls. You have, yeah.
- KDKatie Drummond
Everyone has talked a lot about Big Balls, but, you know, we talked to several, I think three or four different experts who said it is very unlikely that this guy would ever pass a security clearance to walk into a federal agency. Like, it would not happen. This guy has been involved in not criminal enterprises, but at the very least, like, criminally adjacent enterprises. He has, you know, he's running, you know, web domains out of Russia. Like, he is doing all sorts of really bizarre, um, sketchy stuff that would raise serious red flags with someone doing as- a background check before allowing a, a, a new federal employ-
- KSKara Swisher
Elon loves that.
- KDKatie Drummond
Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's, it's this sort of like reckless disregard for any standards in terms of who you're bringing in.
- KSKara Swisher
And explain why he wants those young people to do it. I, I know why. I- 'cause the older people wouldn't-
- KDKatie Drummond
Well-
- KSKara Swisher
... be- because they have...
- KDKatie Drummond
O- older people wouldn't. I think, look, there is this, as you know very well, the cult of Elon, right? And I think for a lot of young men in the technology space-... what he is doing and everything that he does and the way he lives his life, the way he communicates online, he's, he's an icon, he's an idol. I mean, they look up to him and they are very malleable and pliable, and they will go into these agencies and do as told because they are doing it for Elon, they are doing it for, for this larger cause, this notion of saving the United States. I would imagine for a 19-year-old who, you know, runs a company called tesla.sexyllc probably thinks this is a pretty exciting adventure, to be honest, in my mind.
- KSKara Swisher
It is, it is, it is. And yeah, older people just wouldn't do ... they do have older people, as you've noted and others have reported, very sophisticated lawyers and everything else. Um, and s- someone
- 25:18 – 29:00
Bannon vs. Elon
- KSKara Swisher
who's not hiding his disgust for Elon, uh, is Steve Bannon, which is interesting. Bannon called Elon, I think, uh, in, this week, a parasitic illegal immigrant, though he did compliment Doge, um, and he said, uh, "Elon wants to playact as God." He does seem to be a fan, as I said, of Doge's work. He told CNN. Let's listen.
- SBSteve Bannon
Elon's doing some great work. You know, I'm a h- huge supporter of, uh, the deconstruction of the administrative state, and what Elon's doing in, um, in Doge, I'm a big supporter of that. I hope, and my prayer is, is that these cuts are real.
- KSKara Swisher
So Bannon later called out Elon, Mark Zuckerberg, and Jeff Bezos as oligarchs who don't support the MAGA movement. Wh- what is going on here? I think he would turn and be pals with Elon in five seconds, no question, with this guy.
- KDKatie Drummond
My best guess here is that Steve Bannon is outside of the inner circle and wishes he was inside of the inner circle, right, and has sort of been supplanted by Elon Musk. I mean, I think it's interesting to compare that Time magazine cover with Bannon from the first Trump administration to now Elon, you know, in that very iconic Time cover from a couple weeks ago.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- KDKatie Drummond
Um, you know, I-
- KSKara Swisher
He's sitting in front of the Resolute Desk.
- KDKatie Drummond
Yeah, I think that, that Steve Bannon is sort of on the outside looking in, um, probably wishing that he was part of the club. That's my best guess.
- KSKara Swisher
Right, right, right. And try, that's what those compliments were. What do y- when you think about those who are pushing back there, are there really true people pushing back? And what can be done? Obviously, Scott makes fun of the people, the Democrats standing in front of agencies and yelling. Um, but, you know, there is something to protest, obviously. Is there, is there real pushback within the, within the government and within technology circles? They just seem to be quitting, that's what it looks like. A lot of the techies who are in there are leaving, are going.
- KDKatie Drummond
Yeah. Yeah. I, I wish I could say that we were seeing signs of some really, um, coherent strategic effort on the part of the Democrats, on the part of, you know, leaders within these agencies to push back on what was happening or prevent it from happening. That's not what I'm seeing. I don't think that's what our reporting indicates. I don't think that, that we're seeing that play out. I think what we're seeing, to your point, are, you know, politicians standing up outside of, of offices in DC and, and making a fuss and making noise. Which, fine. I mean, even just the visibility of that, I think having those clips on social media, there's, there's value there. Uh, obviously we're seeing, you know, people take to the streets and protest in, I think, relatively small numbers at this point, if I'm being totally honest. And I also don't think the Trump administration gives two shits whether people are taking to the streets and protesting in relatively small numbers. Um, and then we're, we are seeing, you know, career civil servants, people in very senior positions within these agencies walk. We're seeing them walk publicly, right? They're not being shy about why they're leaving. And I completely understand that for someone who has been in a position like that and who can no longer, I think with integrity, hold the office that they hold, that the only choice they, they feel they have is to leave. On the flip side though, what that means is it just became that much easier for Elon Musk and President Trump and all of these, you know, leaders within these federal agencies to, uh, put someone else in these big jobs who will be malleable, who will be pliant, and who will execute according to Musk and Trump's demands. So, so that's essentially what that means. They just, they just opened up the headcount. And, and that's a, that's a good thing.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Am- among the biggest people is the cyber people. They're terribly worried. Uh, that's the ones who are sort of sounding the alarms, um, in terms of the, the porousness of what's happening here.
- KDKatie Drummond
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
All right, we're going to a quick break. When we come back, more, uh, more about Doj Central and Wired's amazing reporting. Katie, we're back. There's obviously
- 29:00 – 35:29
Elon’s Conflict of Interest
- KSKara Swisher
been a lot of questions. You mentioned the, about conflicts of interest since Elon came to Washington. I agree. I don't think his big thing is to make money, although he doesn't mind doing it. Um, w- and he's supported, like he's, he's using threats to, to push X, he's using threats to this and that. He- he's doing the typical shakedown kind of, uh, uh, thing that can happen. Um, Wired has done some new reporting on SpaceX engineers in the FAA. They're also putting his people within the FAA and g- and also, apparently President Trump's trying to get him to figure out why he doesn't have his jet. Like, he's putting him on that too. Um, talk about that. I'll note, SpaceX launches are regulated by the FAA and the agency has alleged that SpaceX violated safety rules in the past many times. Um, talk a little bit about this story today, or this week.
- KDKatie Drummond
Yeah. So, oh, I mean, and, and as someone who travels by airplane frequently and takes a lot of Xanax to do it, um, I have to say this line of reporting has been particularly stressful for me as a human being. Um, you know, so we've identified several, um, SpaceX engineers who were onboarded, uh, into the FAA this week, uh, even as, you know, the Secretary of Transportation, Sean Duffy, I think on Monday said, "We've got some engineers from SpaceX, they're taking a tour of some facilities," sort of like, "Nothing to see here." Me- meanwhile, they were actually being onboarded as employees of the FAA. Um, and so these are, these are engineers. Um, I think it, it's important to be very clear that these, these are people with legitimate qualifications, right? I'm not talking about 19-year-olds who have, you know, completed, uh ...
- KSKara Swisher
Decided to put up a rocket, yeah.
- KDKatie Drummond
Right. Um, these are people who, you know, work at SpaceX, like they make rockets go into the sky and then come down. Um, but there are obviously, you know, several...... concerns or issues with regards to the FAA right now. One is that, you know, Doge just fired, I think, several hundred FAA workers in a moment where it's, it's very clear that the FAA has been understaffed and, and spread way too thin for far too long, right? There have been alarm bells sounded about that for a very long time, so the notion that we would be reducing staff within that agency is stressful to begin with. There's also just the reality, as you just pointed out, that the FAA oversees SpaceX and has fined SpaceX several times for safety violations. So, the idea that you would have engineers from a company that is regulated by the agency that they now work for going in to try to, quote, "fix" that agency is one enormous and very stressful conflict of interest. I, I, I just find the idea of, you know, someone with experience relevant to SpaceX going in to fix the agency that also oversees and governs, you know, commercial aviation, that's a, that's genuinely a very scary prospect to me.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, and it's happening all over the government, obviously-
- KDKatie Drummond
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
... you guys have been reporting on that. And again, what, where, who, who's running SpaceX and o- and Twitter and all these other ... Obviously Steve Davis, who's been a very active, uh, Musk minion. What is the point here of putting them there? Just for eyes? I assume eyes and ears.
- KDKatie Drummond
Yeah, I think eyes and ears and marching orders, right? I mean, they're there to carry out Elon's, Elon's asks, even though he is ostensibly, apparently not in charge of Doge. I think we all know that that's, you know, uh, that's a lie. It's, it's an interesting characterization, um, that doesn't seem reflected in what's act- actually going on. I mean, I, look, I think they're the adults in the room. I think they're there to act as the authority within a handful of different agencies and get these young operatives where they need to be.
- KSKara Swisher
What's the impact on the companies? 'Cause by the way, Tesla's not doing great, by the way. They're not, you know ... The, but, what- what is, what is the, what is happening at the companies when they pull these people out?
- KDKatie Drummond
I mean, as of now, I think it's fair to say Tesla's not doing great, but we also have situations like X being shopped around at a valuation that matches what Elon paid for it a few years ago. So, I think it's, it's hard to say what's happening at the companies, especially because so many of these people appear to be pulling double-duty, right? I think we had an example a week ago, it was within the technology transformation services, who had kept his job, um, at an external company while fulfilling this role for, for Musk at federal agencies. So, it would not be surprising if a lot of these people pull the Elon playbook and, and work several jobs at the same time.
- KSKara Swisher
At the same time. So, uh, how, um, uh, could he put ... He could put them in every agency, his own employees, correct? That he, that, that are, that are beholden to him and nobody else?
- KDKatie Drummond
He, he could and, and that's what has been going on. I mean, we've also seen Doge operatives ... I call them operatives because that feels like (laughs) the most accurate way to describe them. Like, they have multiple email addresses so we have, you have people working within two, three, four agencies at any given time. Multiple email addresses apparently sort of acting out, um, the asks of, of Musk and sort of Doge leadership across the federal government at once, which is, uh, a terrifying proposition, honestly.
- KSKara Swisher
And, and who is coordinating all that? Elon can- is not doing this alone. Who do you think is the most critical person helping him coordinate this?
- KDKatie Drummond
There are a few. So there is, um, I think in particular at the Office of Personnel Management, which is, I think shorthand for that would be, like, it's like HR for the federal government. There's a woman named Amanda Scales who has worked for Musk before, uh, most recently at xAI, and she's there as chief of staff. So she's really sort of, like, running point ... You know what a chief of staff does. I mean, they sort of, like, keep all the trains moving. It's like the managing editor is the way I think of it, of, of the federal government. So I think that she is, like, a very critical linchpin in this. Then you also have the GSA which is the General Services Administration, and sort of the leaders that he has installed across those two agencies, because they oversee so many different branches of the federal government. I mean, I think that those are sort of the critical, um, the critical adults in the room who are working across all of these different agencies from, from where they are stationed. But I think Amanda Scales is an important person to be paying attention to, just in the sense that she is really the operational leader-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- KDKatie Drummond
... working within that agency.
- KSKara Swisher
And he always has those. He has those all the time, that are loyal to him. What people have to understand, they're loyal to Elon Musk, not Donald Trump. These are not Trump, these were not Trump supporters and neither was Elon for a long time. So, um, I wanna
- 35:29 – 37:29
King Trump?
- KSKara Swisher
ask you about President Trump because what is his role in here? And la- last week he's channeled Napoleon, posting, "He who saves his country does not violate the law." He was t- trolling people with that. Um, he also called himself king on Wednesday as he tried to kill congestion pricing in New York. That's my impression.
- KDKatie Drummond
A- everything that we have heard from inside the administration and around the administration is that even people very close to President Trump don't know what Doge is doing. They don't know how often to be communicating with Doge, they don't know what that process is supposed to look like. Um, it's sort of, it, it really feels like Doge is always two or three steps ahead, and the actual White House, the actual administration is, is behind. They are catching up with what Doge is doing. Honestly, it seems like as, as the press is. As journalists are publishing stories, it sort of feels like the administration is finding out what Elon has been up to, despite, you know, any, any assurances or anything that the president is saying publicly, um, because he has been very publicly supportive of Musk and Doge. It really doesn't seem like he has any idea what's going on, and frankly, it doesn't really seem like he cares.
- KSKara Swisher
And why do you think he's allowing this to happen?
- KDKatie Drummond
(laughs) Wow. That's a great question. (sighs) I mean, I think that he likes, I think that he likes the story that he's able to tell. He's telling, you know, US citizens, people who voted for him, that he's cutting cost. Uh, he's telling them that he is very close to, to tech and to sort of tech leadership, and to the visionary Elon Musk. I think he likes the story. I think he loves the chaos. I think he loves the fact that Doge is in the headlines 24/7. I think it keeps his administration top of mind for people because it's, it's inescapable. So, you know-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, it's a great narrative, it's a great story.
- KDKatie Drummond
... I, I, I think, I think he likes the story. I don't think he actually cares what's happening in, in the details. I don't think he's getting into the fine print on this.
- KSKara Swisher
All right Katy, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about X's new valuation. Katy,
- 37:29 – 44:29
X Raising Money at a $44B Valuation
- KSKara Swisher
we're back. Let's get to a couple more headlines. Elon Musk's X is in talks to raise money from investors at a valuation of $44 billion. If that number sounds familiar, it's because it's the same price Musk bought the platform back in 2022. In December, Fidelity Investments marked down its stake in the company by 70%. This follows a trend of Musk company valuations soaring since he's taken a significant role in the Trump administration. Even if the companies are suffering, such as Tesla, uh, the numbers are down and the price was up. Um, eh, X is not in the same place it was, pre-Elon. It's small, it's, it's smaller. It, it's, today the Wall Street Journal published a very good story about, uh, X people pressuring advertisers to get back on, or else maybe they'll face an investigation or they'd a- be added to a lawsuit that they're doing. They're using a lot of legal means to try to force advertisers onto what is clearly a less good platform. Uh, talk about th- this. Although, again, it's not, for him to make money is not maybe his guiding role. He certainly is doing it, and here's a perfect example of it.
- KDKatie Drummond
Here's a perfect example. I mean, this is a platform that to say that it has seen better days would be a massive understatement. Um, I mean, it is, for all intents and purposes, a right-wing echo chamber. It's a mess. It's a terrible user experience. None of the ideas that they have advanced around X sound any good at all. You know, you could pay, you could pay people on X. They're gonna introduce audio and video. Um, they're going to integrate it with Grok AI. Sounds like a complete train wreck. I mean, none of these are particularly promising ideas for the platform or the business. However, Elon Musk is very close to the president. I mean, he has that adjacency that for investors, I would imagine, is, is very appealing. And for investors and advertisers, you know, the, the sort of, the implicit or direct threats that are, you know, reportedly being made. So it's, it's not just that it's exciting or enticing to think that they might be able to sort of get closer to the administration and curry favor with Musk and Trump. It's that in some instan- instances, at least with advertisers, it seems like they're not really being given much of a choice.
- KSKara Swisher
They're not, they're, they're, they, they are going to e- either pay or, pay or not, but we're gonna, you're gonna be in trouble, um, i- in some way. I'll, I'll, let me read you something someone... I asked him about this today. Um, "Uh, every advertiser," this, I think this dynamic's playing out, "that every advertiser who knows what they're doing, no media buyer, indeed no marketer, wants their CEO gets a call from Elon Musk berating them for not advertising on X." It sound, um, it, it sounds, uh, it sounds judgment to avoid by throwing some money to the company. Uh, "Everything about this I loathe. It creates a bad precedent. It puts money in Elon's pocket. It undermines the advertising business." Um, you know, he... I think it's just prudent business. "I have heard stories that the team is making veiled threats, perhaps not so veiled threats, and I think it will ultimately bite them, uh, someday." But this is a classic story of corruption that, you know, it's just a kind of thing like that. You cannot build businesses on threats. I mean, you can't, but you can actually.
- KDKatie Drummond
I mean, I think what is disturbing to imagine is what's playing out with X right now in terms of the conflict of interest, the corruption, advertisers bending a knee, investors bending a knee, everybody sort of getting in line to go along with what's happening here... To be clear, what's happening here is, is not okay by any measure. If you extrapolate that and sort of think about it across many, many companies across the entire country, like across the United States of America, like that, this is what is happening to our country. X is a microcosm of that, right? But you have a lot of really wealthy, really powerful people, institutions, corporations bending a knee and saying like, "Uh, oh, oligarchy, like, okay. Let's, like, let's... Sure, I guess we, we're, we don't have a choice. So hands up, we're gonna, we're gonna-"
- KSKara Swisher
They are, they are saying...
- KDKatie Drummond
"... we're gonna go along with you."
- KSKara Swisher
I've heard them say it to me that "We don't have a choice. We can't do it. Right now we can't do anything about it." Is there anyone else trying to take advan... Obviously, all the tech leaders showed up at inauguration in that shameless, uh, display of fealty, um, to Trump. I- is there anyone... And I will note, Tim Cook was there, and so was Sam Altman. They were sitting in the back row and-
- KDKatie Drummond
Uh, I mean, I think that all of the pictures I saw of Tim Cook fr- from inauguration, like he looked physically ill, um, and, and, like, somewhat mortified.
- KSKara Swisher
But he was there.
- KDKatie Drummond
But, but he was there. And, and let history show, let the photos remind everyone in four years when, knock on wood, we have another election and the tables turn, knock on wood, he was there. They were all there. Sam Altman was there. Sam Altman, obviously an incredibly opportunistic tech executive, um, was there and then subsequently, you know, polished the president's shoes while telling him how amazing his leadership was going to be for AI in this country and, and the world. Um, you know, Mark Zuckerberg obviously is the most, I think, brazen and craven example of this. And I- I'm s- I'm speechless at that one because I think it is so... I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's nauseating. It's nauseating. And again, I think really importantly with all of these tech executives, what's very important for the media and for press and, and for everybody to remember as the years go by and more, there's more and more chaos and, and we're doing more and more...... when the dust settles, don't forget that they were all there. Don't forget what Mark Zuckerberg did to his company to appease the President of the United States. The, the influence that Meta's platforms have on millions, if not billions, of people. Don't forget what he did to appease the administration. I think that that's really important because so much is happening every day. It's been a month. It's been a month.
- KSKara Swisher
Is there- is there- is there any resistance in tech at all, besides Reid Hoffman and maybe Mark Cuban?
- KDKatie Drummond
No- none that I have been able to discern. You know, I've talked to a lot of, of tech leaders and tech CEOs, even just off the record or, or talking to their, their, their comms people, and the message to, to me has been very clear. "When we go on the record, don't ask us about politics." They don't want to talk about it. They're not talking about it. And I think it feels so markedly different to 2016 when a lot of them were talking about it. I think Airbnb, I remember, was a really notable example then of a company that came out swinging with regards to the Trump Administration, with regards to the President's comments on immigrants, people from, what, garbage countries, whatever you want to call them-
- KSKara Swisher
Sergey Brin.
- KDKatie Drummond
... shithole countries. Um, you know, it's, it's radio silence, which I think is really telling, really disturbing, and will unleash any number of, of crises over the next four years. I really believe that.
- KSKara Swisher
So last question here, uh, i- is, are... The Democrats, I don't think, were as close to tech as people thought it was. I thought, I thought Obama was th- you know, in that regard with Eric Schmidt and others. Uh,
- 44:29 – 50:40
What Should Democrats Do?
- KSKara Swisher
what, um, uh, do you think it's a wholesale change? I think it's an opportunistic change, and I- the joke I make is that if Kamala Harris won, Mark Zuckerberg would be asking as to calling him they/them.
- KDKatie Drummond
Yes.
- KSKara Swisher
Um, you know, I don't think it's anything other than that-
- KDKatie Drummond
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
... because I don't think they're committed in any way. And I think Steve Bannon's right, they're not MAGA friends, they just are opportunistic. Um, is... In that regard, is there an opportunity for Democrats in that way besides giving these toddlers what they want?
- KDKatie Drummond
You mean to get closer to the tech industry?
- KSKara Swisher
To get close, back, back to closest. Or do you think it's an overall shift that's permanent?
- KDKatie Drummond
I don't think it's an overall shift. I think you're right that this is like company before country, right? This is opportunistic, what's best for Meta in this specific moment in the context of the numbers, right? It's about the bottom line, it's not even about the staff and whether or not they're having a good time. Um, it's, it is absolutely opportunistic, but I think to be able... for the Democrats to be able to create an opportunity here would require them to first get their shit together and figure out what their strategy actually is over the next four years. And so it's a really hard question to answer when beyond some, like, sternly worded statements and speeches and a couple of people hanging out in DC outside of these federal agencies being noisy, I don't really see a coherent strategy taking shape at all. I would be very interested to see what they think they could do to collaborate more closely with the tech industry to sort of create a productive working relationship with some of these leaders so that hopefully in three and a half years we're in a very different position ahead of the next US election. Um, but it's very hard to see that happening right now because I don't see much happening at all.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, I would agree with you. Anyway, um, uh, we're go- okay, Katy, it's time for this week's Threads poll result. Last week we asked you all what you wished Democrats were doing in response to the Trump Administration, that's why I was asking about that. Here are a few responses. Kerry said, "Replace Schumer's entire comms staff just with Pete Buttigieg." From Marina, "Primary/retire all those old white men and support young, ferocious, fearless candidates." And Nick said, "Talk like human beings, stop fundraising texts, demonstrate understanding of urgency. We know the House is on fire, we want to see firefighters, nurses, cops." Uh, good answers, kind of what you were saying. What would y- y- I mean, I think this is right, it's the e- the elderliness of it, the, um, the, the, the tone-deafness, the lack of social media. I think the, the Republicans are excellent on social media, um, and, uh, comparatively, and the, and the, the Democrats certainly aren't as much. Some are, certainly are. Do you see anybody being very promising? I mean, uh, Pritzker has suddenly sort of developed a backbone and is using social media a lot. Obviously AOC, um, uses it. Is there anybody? A- and how important is that going forward?
- KDKatie Drummond
I'm a- I've always been a big Pete Buttigieg fan. Um, I think he's... He, he knows how to create a viral moment, he's very well-spoken, he's very forceful. I think that he continues to be a really promising voice in that party. Obviously I think that AOC is, is tremendous. I mean, I think she is articulate, she is forceful, she is accessible. Um, I think what she does on, on vertical video, on social platforms in terms of communicating with her audience is, is phenomenal. I wish that we saw more politicians do that kind of, I, I want to call it grassroots outreach. It's- it's grassroots digital outreach, right? It's- it's meeting your constituents where they are on the platforms, where they spend time, talking to them in a way that feels authentic, helping them navigate what is happening right now and, and sort of really genuinely acting as a voice for the people and someone for the people to look to as a leader. I think the Democrats need more, to the point of, of one of the, the commenters, really sort of, you know, high energy, high velocity, forceful political leaders instead of candidly, you know, the, the geriatrics who are just kind of sitting on their-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- KDKatie Drummond
... hands right now.
- KSKara Swisher
Waving (laughs) Scott says waving their, their, their canes at people. I would agree. It's... I- I- I actually see Chris Murphy doing some interesting things. There's a bunch of them. Th- there's a bunch of them, but it has to be coordinated in a way that, you know, and you still have the power of the Rogans, although he's slipping a little bit. You're starting to see slippage with him. Um, I think the audience is up for grabs, that's for sure, um, if they want, if they want to have the right questions. Um, all right, um, now for this week's questions for our audience. Do you think China will agree to the sale of TikTok under the Trump Administration? Katy, I want your response very quickly on this one.
- KDKatie Drummond
No.
- KSKara Swisher
All right. And? So what happens?
- KDKatie Drummond
What happens? I think-
- KSKara Swisher
I'm sure you're reporting on this.
- KDKatie Drummond
We-
- KSKara Swisher
I'm sure you have reporters.
- KDKatie Drummond
We are. I mean, first of all, I think everything happening right now is, is very dubious in its legality, and I'm not quite sure how TikTok is still in the app stores that the Supreme Court said it shouldn't be in. I think that Trump brokered some kind of deal to keep TikTok in the United States. I think it's very clear that he has no intention of letting this thing shut down, so I think he brokered some sort of deal. What's in it for Beijing, though, is the big question mark I have, because they have no interest in allowing that platform to operate in this country without their oversight and without their control of that algorithm. So how he actually solves for that, I do not know. And, and we at Wired, I will say, we do not know.
- KSKara Swisher
We do not know. And, and do you see any person besides Larry Ellison rising to the front? I said Musk, obviously, 'cause he's, he's acceptable to China.
- KDKatie Drummond
I, I think Elon Musk, I think Larry Ellison. I do not think... As much as I, I really like Frank McCourt and I think that he is, you know, a very articulate and, and intelligent person, I don't see that sort of taking shape in any meaningful way.
- KSKara Swisher
He's one of the bidders.
- KDKatie Drummond
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. I think it's probably gonna be the Elon thing once again. He's gonna fix everything. Visit us on Threads at PivotPodcastOfficial to answer. So we'll hear, we'll hear the answers we get from listeners. If you've got a question, uh, of your own you'd like answered, send it our way. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for this show or call 855-51-PIVOT. All right, Katy, one more quick break. We'll be back for your prediction.
- 50:40 – 55:40
Predictions
- KSKara Swisher
Okay, Katy, let's hear a prediction. You are Scott Galloway today.
- KDKatie Drummond
Okay. I'm gonna offer a completely insane-
- KSKara Swisher
Please.
- KDKatie Drummond
... improbable prediction, but I feel like I have talked so much about so many things that are very stressful, um, and real bummers for everybody, and I'm sorry about that. So here is my prediction. One thing that we know about Elon Musk is that he latches onto an idea or an ideology and he sticks with it and he goes really, really hard at it, and then he changes his mind. It has happened before. My predict- my prediction, and you'll have me back on in six months or a year and, and make fun of me for how wrong I was, something will happen, whether it has to do with his companies, whether it has to do with a divide in, in MAGA world, within sort of the Trump orbit, something will happen and he will pivot back to a more progressive, uh, more, uh, left-leaning, Dem-centric ideology, and he will do away with this sort of, like, hard line extremist far right approach. This is, I am giving you a very optimistic, a very optimistic prediction.
- KSKara Swisher
A- And it's just your wish, your wish that he, that he will do this?
- KDKatie Drummond
I think there is a 1% chance that it will happen, and so I'm using it as my prediction.
- KSKara Swisher
Okay. He used to support cl- I, I just was looking at texts he sent me about the climate change thing-
- KDKatie Drummond
Exactly.
- KSKara Swisher
... because all he was-
- KDKatie Drummond
Exactly.
- KSKara Swisher
He was so upset in the texts, like, that Trump was doing. Same thing, oddly enough, with gay and lesbian stuff. He was text-
- KDKatie Drummond
I think, I just, I, I, I think it's important for people to remember that he, he was not always this way. It was not always like this. And-
- KSKara Swisher
Well, he was a little bit this way.
- KDKatie Drummond
A little-
- KSKara Swisher
Just a little bit this way.
- KDKatie Drummond
... but he was not out there avidly cheering on Donald Trump in 2016, so I am saying there is a 1% chance that he moves in the other direction.
- KSKara Swisher
Hmm. Well, we'll see. I don't know. What could happen o- getting off the, uh, evening activities? I don't know what could happen.
- KDKatie Drummond
I don't know. Uh, you never know.
- KSKara Swisher
I don't know. (laughs) His, his daughter is nice to him. Who can't stand him-
- KDKatie Drummond
Ex- Exactly.
- KSKara Swisher
... is also his daughter.
- KDKatie Drummond
You, you never know. You never know.
- KSKara Swisher
Uh.
- KDKatie Drummond
If Elon Musk-
- KSKara Swisher
Well, I don't know.
- KDKatie Drummond
If Elon Musk and Donald Trump in the last six months have shown us anything-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- KDKatie Drummond
... it's that you never know. I did not know when I-
- KSKara Swisher
He is consistent. Donald Trump is consistent.
- KDKatie Drummond
(laughs)
Episode duration: 55:40
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode P7upK7nHM1Q
Get more out of YouTube videos.
High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.
Add to Chrome